本集简介
双语字幕
仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
过去，在所有这些AI出现之前，当人们问如何成为一名优秀的开发者时，我会说，就是要对挫折有极高的容忍度。
In the past, before all of this AI, when people asked what to do to be a good developer, I said, like, just have a really high tolerance for frustration.
差不多就是这样。
That's about right.
对我来说，理解Next、React或者某个奇怪的命令行工具，并没有什么根本性的内容。
For me to understand Next or React or some weird CLI, there's nothing fundamental.
所以这真的只是浪费的知识。
So it really is just wasted knowledge.
曾经定义开发者核心的是能够编写代码并理解编程语言。
What defined a developer at its core used to be being able to write code and understand programming languages.
突然间，作为开发者这一部分变得越来越不重要了。
Suddenly, that part of being a developer is getting way less important.
软件开发将仅仅成为一项技能。
Software development will just be a skill.
就像写作一样，仍然有专业作家，但我们所有人都必须掌握写作，作为工作的一部分。
Just like with writing, there's still professional writers, but all of us also have to know how to write as part of our job.
两年前，我们的目标受众基本上是1700万专业JavaScript开发者。
Two years ago, our addressable audience was essentially 17,000,000 professional JavaScript developers.
突然间，计算机可以编写代码，因此像我们这样的工具的目标受众变成了。
Suddenly, computers can write code and addressable audience for a tool like ours.
那就是今天所有会使用电子表格的人，大约有30亿人。
That's everybody that can use spreadsheets today, which is more like 3,000,000,000 people.
一年前，我们每天大约有3000个注册用户。
A year ago, we were sitting at around 3,000 sign ups a day.
今天，我们每天大约有16000个注册用户。
Today, we're sitting at around 16,000 a day.
我们开始看到一些模式：这是代理在访问，还是人类在操作？
We're starting to see those patterns where is this an agent accessing or is it a human?
还有更多人正在享受构建疯狂项目的过程。
There's also just way more people having fun building crazy stuff.
人们正在构建以前根本无法完成的精彩WebGL游戏等，浏览器也将因此发生巨大演变。
People building really cool WebGL games and so on that they could never manage to build before and browsers will evolve really dramatically from this.
最初关于网络用户代理的概念正在成为现实。
That originally concept of a user agent on the web is getting real.
你看到一些人对他们的ChatGPT或云端工具有着使用习惯，他们确实有偏好。
You see people like have history with their ChatTPT or cloud, and they really have a preference.
他们不想去银行或和那些AI对话。
And they don't wanna go to, like, the banks, AI, and talk to that.
他们只想以那种方式互动。
They just want to interact in that way.
我们所熟知的网络即将变得面目全非，不是因为新的协议或框架，而是因为谁在构建它。
The web as we know it is about to become unrecognizable, not because of new protocol or framework, because of who's building it.
历史上第一次，从产生想法到运行软件之间的障碍正在崩塌。
For the first time in history, the barrier between I have an idea and I shift working software is collapsing.
Netlify刚刚看到他们的日注册量从3000跃升至16000。
Netlify just watched their daily sign ups jump from 3,000 to 16,000.
有趣的是？
The twist?
这些新用户大多数并不是开发者。
Most of these new users aren't developers.
他们是营销人员、设计师、产品经理，六个月前还不会写一行代码的人。
They're marketers, designers, product managers, people who, six months ago, couldn't write a line of code.
马特·比尔曼预见到了这一点。
Matt Bilman saw this coming.
他创造了‘代理体验’这个术语，意思是AI代理现在成为你所构建的每个产品的核心用户。
He coined the term agent experience, the idea that AI agents are now a core user of every product you build.
但有趣的地方在这里。
But here's where it gets interesting.
当其他人正在开发声称‘我们会成为你的开发者’的工具时，马特却做出了不同的判断。
While others are building tools that say, we'll be your developer, Matt's making a different bet.
他相信我们并不是在取代开发者。
He believes we're not replacing developers.
而是在创造数十亿的新开发者。
We're creating billions of new ones.
这引发了一个令人不安的问题。
This raises an uncomfortable question.
如果任何人都能开发软件，那现在什么才真正让你成为一名开发者？
If anyone can build software, what actually makes you a developer anymore?
答案可能会让你惊讶，而且与代码无关。
The answer might surprise you and has nothing to do with code.
今天，马特与16z的普通合伙人马丁·卡萨多坐下来讨论，为什么首席执行官们突然又开始提交拉取请求，为什么‘死亡网页’理论是颠倒的，以及当您儿子的AI朋友需要开设银行账户时会发生什么。
Today, Matt sits down with a 16 z general partner, Martin Casado, to cover why CEOs are suddenly submitting pull requests again, why the dead web theory is backwards, and what happens when your son's AI friend needs to open a bank account.
马特，感谢你加入。
Matt, thanks for joining.
很高兴见到你。
It's good to see you.
这位是马特·比尔曼，Netlify的首席执行官兼创始人，也是Jamstack的创造者。
So this is Matt Bilman, the CEO, founder of Netlify, also creator of the Jamstack.
众所周知，他是网络架构师，善于追踪趋势。
You know, very well known to be an architect of the web and someone that tracks the trends.
几个月前你来过我们这里，我们当时讨论了AX以及它的含义。
And you were with us a couple months ago, and we were discussing ax and what that means.
而现在，这个领域发展得如此迅速。
And now, you know, like, the the space is moving so quickly.
我们已经过了几个月了。
We're a few months on.
所以这次谈话的重点是聊聊我们过去几个月学到的东西。
And so the point of this is gonna be to talk about what we've learned in the last couple of months.
但也许在此之前，你能先描述一下什么是AX吗？
But maybe before that, maybe you can describe what AX is.
是的。
Yeah.
然后我们再深入聊聊我们最近的发现。
And then we'll just kind of get into, like, kind of what we're learning.
是的。
Yeah.
我写过一篇关于AX的第一篇文章，那是今年一月，现在回头看，感觉在AI领域就像十年前的事了。
I wrote I wrote an article about the the first article about AX in in back in January, which is like feels like ten years ago in in AI time now.
对吧？
Right?
AX这个术语指的是代理体验，没错。
Like, as the term for agent experience Yep.
我一直在思考从用户体验演变而来的概念——用户体验曾是一个能让产品区别于其他产品的关键，不是基于功能清单，而是基于围绕产品的整体体验。
And sort of really thinking about the evolution from user experience as like the term that like really could set a product apart from other products, not just based on a checklist of features, but based on like the experience of like everything around it.
我们在Netlify的前十年，始终聚焦于开发者体验，这通常是让平台区别于其他平台的方式，对吧？
And then our first decade at Netlify of really centering around developer experience, that's typically been a way to set platforms aside from other platforms, right?
通过降低开发者构建、扩展和使用平台的摩擦力，等等。
Like, by making lower friction for developers to actually build on them, and extend them, and use them, and so on.
现在我们突然意识到，所有做产品的人，都面对一个全新的产品使用者角色——由AI驱动的代理，它同样也拥有对产品的体验。
Towards this idea that we suddenly All of us that build product have this new persona using the product that's an agent driven by AI, and that also sort of actually have an experience of the product.
对吧？
Right?
就像，不管那意味着什么，对吧？
Like, whatever that means, right?
这并不一定意味着背后有什么灵魂之类的东西，对吧？
Like, doesn't necessarily mean that there's like some soul behind it or something, right?
但它显然有一些东西，它实际上是在以自主的方式尝试弄清楚如何使用我们的产品，对吧？
But it obviously has some, like it's like actually attempting to figure out how to do stuff with our product in an autonomous way, right?
所以突然间，关于我们产品的文档和入门体验，不再只是针对人类，也针对那些让代理去做事的人，对吧？
Like, so suddenly, the documentation about our product, the onboarding experience of our product is no longer just for like a person, it's also for a person asking an agent to do stuff, right?
这正是我在那篇关于代理体验的文章中所描述的，对我们Netlify来说，它突然成为了产品的北极星，我当时就提出，这对当今任何构建产品的人来说都应当非常重要。
And that was what I sort of described in this article on agent experience as something that suddenly for us at Netlify became like our product north star, and that I've proposed at the time should be pretty important for anybody building products in the world today.
所以听我说，你，正如我们提到的，你运营着Netlify，这是全球最大的托管平台之一。
So listen, you I mean, you run Netlify, as we mentioned, which is one of the world's largest hosting sites.
那么，你有没有看到更多的代理而不是人类访问这些网站？
So have you seen more agents than humans showing up to these websites?
或者说，我觉得现在有很多事情正在发生。
Or I mean, I feel I feel like there's a lot of stuff going down.
确实有这种情况，但同时也有人正在使用智能代理创建网站。
There's, like there's that, but there's also, like, people are creating websites using agents.
所以我感觉这里还有很多值得深入探讨的地方。
And so I just feel like there's, you know, just a lot to tease out here.
我认为特别是在开发者工具领域，AX 这个概念已经得到了远超预期的广泛采用。
I think especially in the dev tool space, like I I I'll say that, like, the term AX have had, like, outsized adoption in the developer tool space.
我认为这是因为对于开发者工具来说，正发生着一些非常有趣的变化，比如以 Netlify 为例。
And I think that's because for developer tools, there's this, like, wild thing happening where if you take Netlify.
对吧？
Right?
两年前，我们的目标用户群体基本上是 1700 万专业 JavaScript 开发者。
Like, two years ago, our audience, like, our addressable audience was essentially 17,000,000 professional JavaScript developers.
对吧？
Right.
对吧？
Right?
而且还有一些相关的开发者也可能使用它，对吧？
Like, and then there's like some adjacent developers that might use it as well, right?
但这是一个非常技术性的产品，基于编写代码和部署代码，对吧？
But it's like a deeply technical product, like based on writing code and shipping it, right?
所以主要用户群体就是1700万人。
Like, so the, like, main audience is 17,000,000 people.
是的。
Yeah.
突然间，计算机可以编写代码了，于是“是否真的需要编写代码才能构建软件”这个问题开始变得不那么重要了，对吧？
And suddenly, computers can write code, and that whole question of like, do you actually need to write code to build software, starts becoming like, not really, right?
这样一来，像我们这样的工具的目标用户群体就扩展到了今天所有能使用电子表格的人，大约有30亿人。
Like, and you start having an addressable audience for a tool like ours that's more like everybody that can use spreadsheets today, which is more like 3,000,000,000 people.
对吧？
Right?
1700万和30亿之间的差距真的非常巨大。
Like, the distance between 17,000,003 is really, really big.
对吧？
Right?
但如果你想触达这么庞大的受众，就必须通过他们用来编写代码和构建软件的代理工具来接触他们，对吧？
Like but if you want to reach that large audience, you have to reach them through the agents they're using to write the code and to build the software, right?
所以我认为，在开发者工具领域，代理体验这一概念如今变得格外重要，也受到了更多关注。
So I think that has meant that in the developer tool space, this idea of agent experience is like extra important right now, and there's like extra attention of it.
这并不意味着它仅限于开发者工具，我认为我们会在所有产品中越来越多地看到它，对吧？
That doesn't mean that it's limited to like developer tools, and I think we'll see it more and more in all products, right?
当代理试图与任何事物互动时，确实意味着在我们的领域，这已经成为实现公司潜力几乎不可或缺的一部分。
Like as agents try to interact with anything, but it does mean that specifically in our space, it's like become something that's like almost essential to to to actually like reaching your potential as a company.
从Netlify的角度来看，似乎有两件事正在发生。
So from the perspective of Netlify, seems like there's there's there's two things going on.
其中之一是，代理在多大程度上正在制作网站？
One of them is to what extent are agents making websites?
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
使用Bolts、Lovels、Replets或者 whatever 它是什么来，嗯，生成网站。
Using, the Bolts or the Lovels or the Replets or, like, the whatever it is to, like Yeah.
生成网站。
Generate, like, the website.
你知道的？
You know?
第二个是针对已经生成的网站。
And then there's a second one is for a website that's already generated.
是的。
Yeah.
代理在多大程度上会访问它？
To what extent is an agent visiting it?
对吧？
Right?
那么，你是怎么想的，你知道的，是的。
And so how do you think about, you know Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
这其中有两个部分是持续存在的。
There's there's two parts to it constantly.
对吧？
Right?
就像，
Like,
顺便问一下，AX 是这两个都包括吗，还是
By the way, is AX both of those or is
在 Netlify，我们是这么讨论的。
it It's Like, at Netlify, we talk about it.
比如，在 Netlify，我们实际上会讨论三种与 AX 相关的类型。
Like, at Netlify, we actually talk about three kinds of AX relevant to us.
对吧？
Right?
比如，它是
Like, it's
全是 AX。
all AX.
对吧？
Right?
比如，有 Netlify 的 AX。
Like, but there's like Netlify's ax.
对吧？
Right?
那么，使用 Netlify 的代理体验是什么？
Like, what is the agent experience of using Netlify?
Netlify。
Netlify.
当然。
Sure.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Right.
那就是Netlify的So
That's like Netlify's So
你是做网页的，对吧。
you're you're like the web yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
就像你是做网站之类的。
Like you're like the website or whatever.
是的。
Yeah.
完全正确。
Totally.
对吧？
Right?
比如，我们的 CLI 和 Cloud Code 能够自动识别如何使用我们的 CLI。
Like, it's like our CLI can can Cloud Code figure out how to use our CLI.
这算是 Netlify AX 的一部分，对吧？
That's like part of Netlify's AX, right?
然后还有我们客户的 AX。
Then there's our customers' AX.
我们的客户所构建的内容，我们该如何帮助他们打造出色的代理体验？
The stuff that our customers built, how can we help them make that, like, make a really great agent experience with that?
假设他们正在使用代理，使用 Cursor，比如
Assuming they're using agents They're using cursor, like
但抛开这一点，如果他们正在构建一个电子商务网站呢？
But independently on that, right, like if they're building like an ecommerce site
是的。
Yeah.
我们需要为他们提供哪些支持，才能让这个过程变得简单？比如，Stripe 现在推出了通过 ChatTivity 直接支付的新功能。
What do we need to help them with to make it easy, like, now Stripe has a new like payments option to buy directly through ChatTivity.
我明白了。
I see.
我明白了。
I see.
好的。
Okay.
懂了。
See.
在 Netlify 上构建电子商务网站。
Building ecommerce sites on Netlify.
对吧？
Right?
他们真的需要做些不同的事情，才能让 ChatTivity 代表用户购买他们的产品吗？
Like, do they actually need to do different to make sure that ChatTivity can also buy their products on behalf of users?
对吧？
Right?
还有类似这样的讨论，比如我们是否应该帮助人们收费进行爬虫，就像 Cloudflare 那样？
Like, there's that whole line of talk, like stuff like, should we help people charge for crawling like Cloudflare does?
而且人们真的想要这个吗？诸如此类的问题。
And do people even want that and so on.
对吧？
Right?
这些都在我们脑海中，比如客户案例中，我们该如何帮助客户实现这些功能？
Like, that's all in our mind, like the customer EX, where, like, how do we help our customers do these things?
是的。
Yeah.
而第三方面，我们称之为行业体验。
And then this third side of it is kind of what we call industry EX.
这涉及到所有我们必须要达成一致的协议和行业通用标准，
That's like all the protocols and, like, general standards we have to agree on, and as as an industry
以让
to make
这些事情变得更简单。
all of these things simpler.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
这基本上就是我们内部对这个问题的思考方式。
And that that's kind of how we think about it internally.
所以我们涉及了这三个方面。
So we touch all three of those.
我认为，目前我们在 Netlify 的唯一 X 上投入的工作最多，而这又回到了当前开发者世界发生的巨大变革这一问题上。
And I would say we've done the most work on Netlify's only X right now, and that, again, kind of comes back to just, like, how how massive that change in, like, the the developer world is right now.
对。
Right.
但我们也显然在大量投入，帮助客户构建 MCP 服务器，弄清楚如何让他们的网站对代理可用，或者判断访问者是代理还是人类等等。
But we are obviously also doing a lot of work on helping customers build MCP servers and figure out how to make their sites accessible for agents or, like, deciding if a visitor is an agent or a human and so on.
你们有没有一些数据可以突出说明一下？比如三年前，人们还不用 AI 来建站，而现在他们已经在用了。
Do you have any numbers that, like, are you can highlight on, like, whatever, three years ago, you know, people were not using AI to build sites, and now they are.
比如，你能不能谈谈，这种变化的规模到底有多大？
Like like, do you have any can you give any sense of, like I mean the extent that
你希望看到哪里？
Where should see it?
这种变化就在于，突然有大量新用户涌进我们的大门。
It's just that shift in, like, the mass of people that are suddenly coming in the front door.
这只是一个最明显的例子：一年前，我们每天的注册量大约是 3000 个，对于一个开发者工具来说，这已经很多了。
Like, it's like that's just the first obvious one where like a year ago we were sitting at around 3,000 sign ups a day, which for developer tool is like That's a lot.
这已经很多了。
That's a lot.
这已经很多了。
That's a lot.
是的。
Yeah.
今天我们每天大约有16,000个注册。
Today we're sitting at around 16,000 a day.
哇。
Wow.
对吧？
Right?
你能感觉到他们是从哪里来的吗？
Like And do have a sense of do you have a sense of where they're coming from?
最不可思议的是，他们无处不在。
Like, that's the wildest thing is that it's everywhere.
对吧？
Right?
因为一开始，我们有大量这些代理直接与Versus Bolt集成，其中dotmu是最大的一个，对吧？
Like, because, like, at first, we we started having a whole bunch of these agents sort of directly integrating with Versus Bolt, dotmu being like the largest one, right?
然后出现了像same dotmu、builder.io、Mimics、Rocket、Codemade、Windsurf等等一大堆这样的平台。
Like, then a whole world of like same dotmu, builder.io, Mimics, Rocket, like Codemade, Windsurf, like, just like all of these different ones.
但所有这些加起来只占注册用户的大约4%。
But all of them together is kind of like a 4% of the of the sign ups.
其余的都是自然发生的。
So the rest just happens organically.
对吧？
Right?
我们实际上用了Bolt。
Like, we actually Bolt.
New曾使用过我们的领取流程，这已经成为代理体验中一种非常普遍的技术，即可以让代理在人类用户还不知道产品存在之前就先使用它。
New had, like, used our claim flow, which has, like, become one really common technique for agent experience, this idea that you can, like, let an agent use your product before the human knows the product exists.
当人类想要参与时，他们会去认领代理所完成的操作，是的。
And then when the human wants to get involved, they go and claim whatever the agent did Yeah.
然后开设一个账户。
And sort of open an account.
起初，像bolt.new这样的一个非常面向消费者的代码代理，正是使用了这个流程，将任何想要真正操作自己网站的人引导到我们这里。
And at first, like, bolt.new, which is one of these, like, very consumer oriented code agents, right, like, was using that flow and sending anybody that wanted to really do something with their website over to us.
但几个月前，我们与他们达成了白标协议，他们现在完全垂直整合了Netlify，将我们白标化并直接向他们的客户销售，以提供一种高度集成的垂直体验。
And then a few months ago, we changed to white label agreement with them, where they are now fully vertically integrating Netlify, and they are white labeling us and selling it directly to their customers to give, like, a really integrated vertical experience.
讽刺的是，即使这是我们最高的合作伙伴，我们在注册数量上也完全看不出这一变化。
And ironically, you cannot see that change in in in our sign up numbers at all, even if that was, like, our highest partner.
对吧？
Right?
因为，这个领域里人们构建网页的整体增长。
Like, because, like, the the general growth of the space of people building web like this.
他们使用AI工具吗？
Are they using AI tools?
他们用的是 Cursor、ChatGPT 之类的工具，还是说只是很多人突然决定自己做网站了？
Are they using, like, a Cursor ChatGPT, or is it just, like, people are, like, decided to make websites, almost?
我我
I I
我的意思是，我不确定，对吧？
mean, I don't know for sure, right?
因为你也无法总是看到他们用的是什么工具，对吧？
Like, because you can't always see what they
构建了它
built it
对吧？
with, right?
但我觉得，如果只是碰巧有人突然开始喜欢 HTML，那也太奇怪了，对吧？
But I think it would be a weird coincidence that I just That's just be people, and I really like HTML now, right?
我觉得更可能的情况是，构建网页应用和网站的人数正在激增，因为做这件事的门槛正在急剧降低。
And I think it's more likely that you'll just see that the amount of people building web apps and websites are exploding, because like the barrier to entry for doing it is like massively disappearing.
现在有些人不小心就用 React 创建了一个网页应用。
Like you have people today that accidentally create a web app in React.
对吧？
Right?
就像你你
Like the like you you
进入，好吧。
go into Alright.
Chativity，然后你
Chativity, and you're,
被提示了正确的内容。
like, prompted the right thing.
就出现了。
Shows up.
是的。
Yeah.
然后突然间，它就像生成了一个画布，而且
And suddenly, it, like, spins off a canvas, and
它构建了
it built
你所有这些东西，而且
you all this stuff, and
你下载它。
you download it.
然后它就变成了，好吧。
And it's like, okay.
现在我要把它放在哪儿？
Now where do I put it?
对吧？
Right?
而且我们基本上就是把它放在最简单的地方。
Like, and we're pretty much, like, the simplest place to put it.
对吧？
Right?
而且我们为这些所有来源打造了非常出色的工具。
Like and then we have made our tooling really great for all of these sources.
对吧？
Right?
而且我们观察到，从进入系统的用户画像来看，他们突然从开发者转变成...
Like, and we are we are seeing that, and we can see in the personas that come in that suddenly they go from being, like, developers.
当然，开发者仍然占很大比例。
Obviously, still ton of developers.
还有很多其他角色，比如在我们的入门流程中，他们自称为市场人员、设计师、产品经理等。
There's also a lot of personas that, like, in our onboarding, like, characterize themselves as, like, marketeers or designers or product managers or
这些人都认为是AI在推动这一切，确实如此，你会觉得...
these other expect AI is driving this, exactly that would which is you go, like
是的。
Yeah.
Netlify 一直是一款面向开发者的非常技术性的工具。
Netlify has always been a very technical tool for developers.
是的。
Yeah.
比如，如果你是 JavaScript 开发者，你会自己使用托管服务。
Like, if you're, like, a JavaScript developer, you use, like, a hosting by yourself.
所以我认为，AI 正在推动这一变化的最明显迹象就是这一点。
So I would guess, like, probably the clearest indication that AI is doing it is exactly this.
比如，战术型与非技术型用户的比例变化，
Like, the mix of, like, tactical versus nontechnical chips,
比如说。
for example.
完全正确。
Totally.
而且这确实发生了转变。
And it really shifts.
你
Do you
有吗，是的。
have a yeah.
我的意思是，有大概的数据吗，还是只是
I mean, are there any rough numbers to that, or is it just
我不喜欢
I don't like
还是靠感觉吗？
Is it still vibes?
还是靠感觉。
It's still vibes.
还是靠感觉。
It's still vibes.
对吧？
Right?
就像，但它的那种氛围，我可以说氛围是非常
Like but but it it's I can say the vibe's a very
强烈的东西。
strong thing.
比如，这根本不是一个解决方案。
Like, even just It's not a solution.
只是和我们的客户交谈。
Just talking to our customers.
对吧？
Right?
比如，我们可以看到这种转变。
Like, we can we can see this shift.
我们还有其他一些能观察到的现象，比如针对我们的核心用户，我们有一个功能叫‘为什么失败了？’
We have other things that we can see things like for, like, our core audience, we have this functionality called why did it fail?
是的。
Yep.
当一个构建发生时，比如你打开一个拉取请求，我们会运行构建并将结果推送到你的环境。一旦构建失败，这通常会让人觉得：好吧，现在我得去调试，弄清楚到底哪里出问题了，对吧？
Where when a build, like when you open a pull request, we run a build and we push that to your When that fails, that's always sort of a point of like, okay, now I have to go and debug it and figure out like why, what happened, right?
所以我们就在界面里加了一个按钮，上面直接写着‘为什么失败了’。
Like, so we put a button in the UI that literally says why did it fail.
你点击这个按钮，我们会把日志和代码发送给大语言模型，然后给你一个诊断结果。
You click that button, and we send like the logs and the code, like, to an LLM, and we give you a diagnosis.
这太棒了。
That's awesome.
我们最初是加了一个按钮，写着‘将这个结果复制给大语言模型’。
First we put a button on saying copy this result to an LLM.
对吧？
Right?
因为如果你身处这个流程中，想要大语言模型帮忙，比如它失败了，就去修复它。
Like, because like if you want, you're in that loop, and you want the LLM, okay, it failed, go fix it.
对吧？
Right?
当我们添加这个按钮后，立即发现有25%点击‘为什么失败’的人同时点击了‘复制给LLM’。
And immediately when we put that button in, we saw that, like, 25% of everyone that clicked why did it fail clicked copy to LLM.
哇。
Wow.
这明显表明，这种趋势正在发生巨大转变。
That's, like, also a pretty big sign of, like, how much this is, like, shifting.
对吧？
Right?
而且现在我们刚刚推出了一个叫‘代理运行器’的功能，你可以启动由Cloud Code或Codex等驱动的自主运行任务。
Like, and now we just launched this thing called agent runners where you can, like, spin up, like, autonomous runs with Cloud Code or Codex and so on.
对吧？
Right?
所以我们现在直接有了一个‘直接修复’按钮。
Like, so now how we we have it, like, just fix it button.
说实话，这对我来说非常惊人。
You know, you know, been remarkable to me, I will say.
我来分享一个个人经历：我晚上用Cursor做业余项目
Here's a here's a personal anecdote, which is I developed with cursor in the evenings
是的
Yeah.
都是用来做兴趣项目的
For hobby projects.
我已经用LoveHi好几年了
I've been using that LoveHi for years.
是的
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
但我从来记不住所有的命令，什么的
But I never remember all the commands, like, whatever.
没错
No.
这让我感到非常惊讶。
It was super remarkable to me.
就像，大语言模型真的知道这些。
It's like, the LLMs actually know it.
所以当我使用 Cursor 时，我会想，哦，Netlify 的命令到底有哪些来着？
So I'll be in cursor and I'll, like, you know, wanna be like, oh, like, what are the Netlify commands still?
就是，你知道的。
Like, you know?
是的。
Yeah.
随便吧。
Whatever.
部署这个，添加这个，随便什么。
Deploy this, add this, whatever.
而它真的知道。
And it actually knows it.
所以我认为，即使是对于专业开发者来说，也是这样的。
And so I I would say even for the case of professional developers, Yeah.
他们正在使用大语言模型来调试代码。
They're using LLMs to to debug.
因为真的有太多框架和工具需要掌握。
Because I mean, it's just like there's just so many frameworks and so many tools to know.
所以你确实应该这么做。
So And and you should.
对吧？
Right?
我的一个主要观点是，开发者的整个定义将会发生根本性变化。
Like, I mean, that that's one of my big thesis that, the whole definition of a developer is really gonna change.
对吧？
Right?
过去，开发者的本质定义是能够编写代码、理解编程语言和掌握语法，也就是那些隐藏在可见层之下的底层内容。
Where where the defined a developer at its core used to be being able to write code and understand programming languages and understand the syntax and, like, that layer sort of below the visible substrate of things.
对吧？
Right?
突然间，作为开发者这一部分变得不那么重要了，甚至可能变得毫无意义。
Like and suddenly, that part of being a developer is getting way less important and potentially going to a what's zero importance.
对吧？
Right?
而开发者其他的能力，比如思维清晰、理解用户真正需要你构建什么、系统思维和系统设计等等，
Like and then the other skill set of being a developer of, like, clarity of thought, of understanding what users actually need you to build, of systems thinking, and system design, and so on.
这些要素突然间成为了衡量你是否真正是一名优秀开发者的首要标准。
Those elements are suddenly becoming, like, the main qualifier for, like, are you actually a really strong developer?
这也改变了开发者的角色定位。
And that also changes the persona.
对吧？
Right?
很多过去在底层代码这种‘解谜’层面非常出色的人，可能在更人性化层面，比如品味、该构建什么等方面并不那么强。
Like, there's a lot of personas that were, like, really, really great at, like, the puzzle level layer of, like, low level code and so on, but that might not be that strong in like the more humanistic layer of like taste and what to build and so on.
对吧？
Right?
而且有很多人原本被排除在开发之外，
Like, and there's a lot of people that were sort of like cut off
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
他们本质上在那些层面非常强大，现在开始进入这个领域。
Fundamentally from development that are very strong in those layers, and that start entering the field.
有意思。
Interesting.
我来提出一个相反的观点，
I'm gonna give a counterpoint to
那个。
that.
我不是吗
Don't I
我不确定这个作者是不是，但不妨试试这个说法。
don't know if this writer is not, but, like, try this on for size.
我是在九十年代开始编程的。
I started programming in the nineties.
是的。
Yeah.
要编程的时候，你坐在电脑前，懂一种编程语言，然后写下代码，就得到了一个程序。
And to program, you sat down at a computer, and you knew a programming language, And you wrote the programming language, and you had a program.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，你只是在思考程序的逻辑。
And so, like, you were just thinking about the logic of the program.
是的。
Yeah.
然后，你知道的，到了二十一世纪头十年后期，网页开发就兴起了。
And then, you know, the February, especially late two thousands rolls around in the web.
然后，成为程序员不再只是写代码。
And then, like, to be a programmer, it's no longer about writing code.
你得懂各种框架。
It's like you have to know frameworks.
但框架本身并没有什么根本性的内容。
And there's nothing fundamental about frameworks.
是的。
Yeah.
比如，要理解 Next 或 React 或者其他什么工具。
Like, for me to understand Next or React or Yeah.
你知道的，一些奇怪的命令行工具。
You know, some weird CLI.
这些都没有什么根本性的内容。
It's there's nothing fundamental.
不。
No.
所以
So
这真的只是浪费知识。
it really is just wasted knowledge.
我觉得我是在用大脑的空间
I'm like I'm like using space in my brain
是的。
Yeah.
去记住某个随机的人做出的愚蠢设计决策。
You know, to remember some dumb design decision from, like, some random person.
对吧？
Right?
所以对我来说，情况有点不同，AI的好处就在于，它什么框架都懂。
And so for me, it's actually a little bit different, which is the nice thing about AI is, like, all the framework stuff it knows.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
我不必浪费大脑去记这些。
I don't have to waste my brain on it.
我可以专心思考编程逻辑。
And I can literally just think about the programming logic.
是的。
Yep.
也就是说
Which
我觉得这
which I think is
完全正确。
actually Totally.
这才是关键，因为你真正阐述了程序能做什么。
What matters because you're actually articulating what the program can do.
所以这和你说的有点类似，但我可能还更进一步抽象了。
So it's it's kind of a similar thing to what you're saying, but I I think maybe I'm even abstracting it more.
我觉得代码其实是一种非常有效的方式，是的。
Like, I actually think I think code's a very effective way Yeah.
来表达权衡取舍
To articulate trade offs
是的。
Yeah.
以及表达你希望某事物做什么。
And to articulate what you want something to do.
是的。
Yeah.
它确实如此。
It actually is.
对吧？
Right?
比如，英语是模糊的。
Like, like, English is ambiguous.
就像，是的。
Like Yeah.
你知道的？
You know?
所以写代码是没问题的。
And so it's fine to write code.
我只是想说
I would just
我觉得所有框架的那些乱七八糟的东西都是我们不该担心的，我们应该忽略它们。
think all the framework nonsense is the stuff that we shouldn't, like, we should, like, not worry about.
然后，正如你所说，有些情况下你不需要
And then, course, to your point, there are things where you don't have
用代码描述得那么底层，可以用高级方式来表达。
to describe so low level as code that you can do a high level.
而且有很多方面，我们都曾是硬核玩家，我们的大脑因为和Commodore 64打交道、学习内存地址而发生了改变，却理所当然地认为每一个细微的
And and there are so many aspects that, like, we we've both, like, been, like, hardcore, like, our brain has been changed by sitting with stuff like a Commodore 64 and like learning memory addresses and just taking for granted that like every little
注释中包含
comment that has
必须如此。
to be.
我记得那时候，比如苹果，你会直接操作独立内存，像是在加载东西。
I remember like, oh, Apple, you like poke into like independent memory, like you're loading.
就是那种级别。
Was like that level.
对吧？
Right?
所以我们也会忘记，刚开始时这有多大的障碍。
So we also forget how much of a barrier it is like just when you start.
对吧？
Right?
整个学习曲线就是，哦，我打错了一个字符，结果什么都没法运行。
That whole learning curve of like, oh, I mistyped one character and now nothing works.
是的。
Right.
是的。
Right.
我认为我们低估了当所有这些都不再成为障碍时所带来的巨大差异。
And I think we underestimate like how big of a difference it makes when all of that is sort of no longer a barrier.
对吧？
Right?
比如，即使你这里那里漏掉几个字符，逻辑依然成立。
Like where, hey, like even if you leave out like a character here and there, like the logic still holds.
对吧？
Right?
逻辑仍然是合理的。
Like, the logic is still sound.
对吧？
Right?
所以，你突然就需要开始练习运用逻辑进行推理的能力，理解整个系统。
Like, so suddenly you just need to start practicing that ability to reason with with with logic and to understand, like, the system.
我认为，看到这些人时真的非常有趣，我觉得可以看到两种不同的路径，对吧？
And it's really fascinating, I think, to see some of these people, like I see sort of two journeys, right?
我看到像我们这样的人
Like I see people like us
是的。
Yeah.
正开始学习如何与人工智能协作，是的。
That are starting to learn how to work with AI Yeah.
并且来自我们所处的这个世界。
And coming from like the world we come from.
对。
Yeah.
然后我看到另一些人，他们来自完全相反的背景，却开始学习在不依赖人工智能的情况下构建软件。
And then I see these people that come from like the completely opposite apart and and start learning to build software without Yeah.
我们经历的这段旅程。
That journey that we went through.
是的。
Yeah.
看到他们与AI之间的这种互动，真的非常有趣。
And it's so interesting to see that interplay they have with the AI then.
对吧？
Right?
因为这变成了一种持续的迭代过程，你总会不断问：为什么它会这样？
Like, because that becomes the the the sort the of constant iteration one that's just like, why does this do this?
是的。
Yeah.
这种学习过程，本质上成了一种教育工具。
The learning, it becomes basically an educational tool.
没错。
That's exactly right.
就像这样，是的。
It's like Yeah.
就像AI不仅会做，还会教你怎么做，让你通过这种方式掌握基本原理。
It's like it's like the AI not only does, but also teaches you how to do it so you learn the fundamentals that way.
不。
No.
我确实也见过同样的情况。
I absolutely have seen the same thing.
是的。
Yeah.
我可以稍微转移一下话题吗？我们一直都在围绕用户展开讨论。
Can I can I move the conversation a little bit, which is so we've kind of been working kind of out towards the user?
我们谈到了像Netlify这样的平台。
We've talked about, like, you know, Netlify itself.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道的。
You know?
是的。
Yeah.
你知道，使用AI，以及AI的合适应用场景是什么。
You know, using AI and then how is a good target for AI.
是的。
Yeah.
当你面向用户时，你知道的，是的。
You know, as you go towards the user Yeah.
我们实际上正在看到浏览器本身
We're actually seeing the browser itself
是的。
Yeah.
似乎正在进化。
Seem to evolve.
而且现在出现了新的浏览器，AI级别的浏览器。
And there's, like, new browsers, AI level browsers.
你有没有看到这方面的实际影响，还是说这还只是未来的事？
Are you starting to see impact from that, or is that still kind of on to come?
这是个好问题。
It's a good question.
我觉得这更多还是未来的事，而不是现在就已经非常现实的东西。
I think it's still more on to come than like something that's like very real right now.
你在访问模式上能看到一些迹象，对吧？
You see it in like the access patterns, right?
比如突然发现这些网站被各种不同的代理以各种不同于人类访问模式的方式访问。
Like where you suddenly see like all of these sites being accessed by all kinds of different agents in in in all kinds of different ways that are different than human access patterns.
对吧？
Right?
这些主要来自浏览器，以及像PlotCode这样的工具。
Like, and I that comes from browsers and from tools like PlotCode and so on.
对吧？
Right?
比如，Bond JS 最近提出的一个想法，现在包括我们在内的很多人都在效仿，就是在文档页面使用内容协商。
Like, we've like, one thing that Bond JS just came up with, and everybody, like us included, are copying now, is this idea of, like, for their documentation side, use content negotiation.
所以当 PlotCode 请求页面时，不要发送 HTML，而是直接返回 Markdown。
So when plot code asks for a page instead of sending the HTML, respond directly with the markdown.
这样可以减少解释时使用的 token 数量。
So it uses less tokens to, like, interpret it.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Like yeah.
哦，我明白了。
Oh, I see.
我明白了。
I see.
我明白了。
I see.
明白了。
See.
这使得很多
That makes a of
合理。
sense.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
所以我们开始看到这类模式，在实践中真正开始构建内容协商机制，比如判断是代理在访问，还是人类在访问，也许我们应该采取不同的处理方式。
So we're starting to see those kind of patterns where we actually start, like, in practice building, like, content negotiation where, like, is this an agent accessing, or is it a human accessing, and maybe we should do different things.
对吧？
Right?
比如，我认为这些正是早期的迹象，表明当浏览器也开始变得如此，内部嵌入AI，有时是人类在浏览，有时是浏览器中的AI在操作时会发生的情况。
Like, and I think those are sort of early signs of what will happen when even the browser starts being like that, and starts like having AI inside that sometimes it's a human viewing, and sometimes it's the AI in the browser
那么根据这一点，你的心理模型是大多数AI仍与人类协同工作，还是你认为这些系统会随着时间推移逐渐脱离人类？
So and type based on this, is your mental model that most AI is working with a human, or is your mental model that these things become more divorced over time?
因为浏览器这个问题的前提是，浏览器背后始终有一个人与AI并行协作，而纯粹的自主代理模式可能并没有如此紧密的人类参与。
Because the browser question to me assumes there's a human behind the browser in tandem with an AI, where, like, the purely agentic one, maybe there isn't a human so tightly in the loop.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为很明显，在这一历程的初期，一切都是高度依赖人类参与的。
I think I think it's pretty obvious that we that in the beginning of this journey, it was all sort of very human in the loop.
对吧？
Right?
对，没错。
Like Yeah.
我认为，未来始终会存在大量需要人类参与的交互场景。
And there will I think there will always be a large set of human in the loop interactions.
对吧？
Right?
尤其是浏览器，我认为它总体上会非常注重体验。
Like, and especially the browser, I think, will generally be very, like, experience oriented.
对吧？
Right?
比如，当我外出并体验某件事时，也许你会有一个助手帮你处理一切，但它仍然紧密参与其中。
Like, and I'm going somewhere and I'm experiencing something, so maybe you have this assistant that helps you with everything, but it's still, like, very in the loop.
但也很明显，尤其是围绕代码代理这些构建模块，奇怪的是，像CLI中的代码代理、codecs、Gemini CLI等，它们正变得非常强大的通用型代理。
But it's also very obvious that especially these building blocks around actually, like, strangely enough, like, the code agents in the CLI, like, plot code, codecs, Gemini CLI, like, those are sort of turning out to be really strong generalist agents.
对吧？
Right?
因为它们存在于CLI环境中，在那里它们可以轻松完成你在计算机上做的任何事情。
Like, because they live in that, like, CLI space where they can do anything you can do in a computer pretty easily.
对吧？
Right?
而且它们能编写代码，因此甚至可以创建自己的工具来实现新功能等等。
Like and they can write code, so they can even write their own tools to do new things and so on.
而且它们能够持续不断地执行越来越长的任务，你给它们一个任务，它们就会努力去解决它。
And they are kind of like really being able to do longer and longer stretches of just like uninterrupted work, where you give them some task and they just try to solve it.
对吧？
Right?
所以我认为
Like, so I think
我曾经用过一个这样的CLI工具，我当时就想，好吧，我要让它完成一个完整的游戏。
I had one of these CLI tools where I'm like, I was just trying to be like, okay, I'm gonna make it do a full game.
我要做的是，写一个测试来检验游戏是否能运行，然后让它不断迭代，直到通过测试为止。
And what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna I'm gonna have a I'm gonna have a test that'll test if the game works, then and I'm gonna have it just keep iterating on it until, like, it, you know, passes the test.
它运行了几个小时，花了我一万美元。
And it ran for a few hours, and it cost me $10,000.
这真是
That's a that's
那是一个其他的限制因素。
a that's a that's other constraining factor.
对于那些正在
For those that are
观看的人，请小心。
watching, be careful.
我心想：哎呀。
I was like, whoops.
这太疯狂了。
It's wild.
是的。
Yeah.
但我会，但我想，针对你的问题。
But I will but I think I mean, just to your question.
对吧？
Right?
我觉得我们会看到两种情况。
I I think we'll see both.
对吧？
Right?
我觉得我们正站在一个转折点上，即将看到越来越多真正自主的智能体。
Like, I do think that we are on this cusp of seeing more and more, like, truly autonomous agents.
希望它们仍然总是因为某些人类而采取行动。
Hopefully, they're still always doing things because some humans
而不是真正拥有真正的
As opposed to like, actually having true true
代理权，就是说，是的。
agency is, like Yeah.
机器人接管。
The robotic takeover.
希望这仍然是一个长期任务，但某个普通人会说：嘿。
Hopefully, it's still, like, long task, but some human was like, hey.
去把这件事做了。
Go do this thing.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
你有没有考虑过，我的意思是，你在内容协商中提到过一点，但你真的有思考过经济方面，以及这一切如何改变经济格局吗？
Do you do you think about, like I mean, you you meant you talked a bit about it in the content negotiation, but do you actually think about the economics and how they're shifting as a result of all of this stuff?
因为确实感觉是这样。
Because it does feel like Yeah.
在智能代理的世界里，支出方式完全不同。
Spend is very different in the world of agents.
这真的关乎令牌数量。
It really is about tokens.
这更多不是关于
It's less about,
就像在商店里竞争一样。
like, compete ever in store.
只是重新定价。
Just repricing.
对吧？
Right?
我们也是因为同样的原因推出了新的定价。
Like, we've launched new pricing for for the same reason.
对吧？
Right?
我觉得每个人都在以某种形式构建信用模型。
Like, I think everybody is starting to build credit models in some form.
对吧？
Right?
就像它是
Like It's it's
在我看来，我记得从永久许可转向定期收费的转变。
just it it seems to me so I I remember the shift from perpetual to to to, like, recurring.
我记得那段时间。
Like, I remember that.
对吧？
Right?
我觉得我们现在正从定期收费转向按使用量计费的形式。
It feels like we're going from, like, a recurring to, like, a usage based
是的。
Yeah.
基于这个。
Based on this.
对。
Yeah.
你的经验也是这样吗？
Is is is your experience the same?
是一样的。
It's it's the same.
我想说，我觉得我们所有人都在寻找让模式更偏向成果导向，而不是纯粹按使用量计费的方法，对吧？
I would say, I think all of us are also looking for ways to make it more outcome based rather than pure usage based, right?
比如，我们在尝试找到一些方法，因为按使用量计费往往存在一些奇怪的问题，对吧？
Like, and finding trying to find ways, because like, often the usage of the agents that's like a weird thing with usage based, right?
比如，你对向代理提出的问题几乎没有控制权，不知道它会怎样响应
Like, that often you have very little control over what like, is this question I ask the agent
问题是长提问还是短提问。
Long one or short ones.
对，比如它会不会用掉大量令牌来回答
Right, like, is it gonna use a lot of tokens to They're lose
让我花了一百块和二十块。
me a $100 and $20.
我其实不太清楚，它可能会
I don't really know, like it's gonna
就是一万，对吧，
be and 10,000, right,
这个游戏值不值一万，或者
is this game worth 10,000 or
就十美元，对吧？
like $10, right?
所以我觉得我们很多人都在努力弄清楚那些价值要素是什么。
So I think a lot of us are also trying to figure out what like those elements of like value are.
这听起来非常困难
That sounds very tough
对我来说。
to me.
确实很难。
And it's really tough.
所以我觉得现实中，大家都已经习惯这种间隔了，对吧？
So I think in reality everybody's kind of like used to spaced right now, right?
但我认为同时，随着时间推移，即使这很难，我们也会逐渐变得更擅长识别那些更贴近价值的要素，而不仅仅是纯粹的令牌使用量，那种感觉就像是1000万个令牌。
But I think at the same time, it's not impossible that over time, even if it's tough, we start getting better at figuring out elements that feels more aligned to to values than than just pure token usage, which feels pretty like, 10,000,000 tokens.
对吧？
Right?
你现在在运营中使用智能代理吗？
Are you are you are you using agents in operations now?
比如
Like
我们内部确实在用一些，但我觉得用得还不够。
We are we are using some internally, but not enough, I would say.
但我们确实在用一些。
But but we are using some.
比如，我们在用一些，我觉得尤其是我们的开发团队已经为各种用途构建了自定义代理，比如与Linear的集成和管理，还有跟踪明年会发生什么之类的事情，这样我们就能
Like, we are using some, like, I think especially our developer organization have have have built custom agents for all kinds of stuff, like linear integration and management there, and things like keeping up with what's happening in next year so we can
继续做
keep doing the
正确的框架适配器等等。
right framework adapters and so on.
对吧？
Right?
我们已经构建了很多这类内部工具。
Like, we've we've built a lot of that kind of internal tooling.
是的。
Yeah.
抱歉。
Sorry.
我的意思是，我非常感兴趣的是，现在当下，不是科幻小说，而是代理实际应用在哪些地方？
I mean, for me, I'm just very interested in, like like, right now today, not science fiction, like, where do agents apply?
对吧？
Right?
显然，它们是很好的生产力工具。
Clearly, they're a great productivity tool.
是的。
Yep.
显然，它们可以处理更长时间运行的任务。
Clearly, they can do longer running tasks.
显然，它们在一些基础任务上表现得相当不错。
Clearly, like, there's, like, basic stuff that they're pretty good at.
比如，如果我要把一种语言转换成另一种语言。
Like, for example, if I'm like, I don't know, convert from this language to this language.
像这种范围明确、定义清晰的任务，它们做得很好。
Like, there's good these kind of, like, you know, well scoped, well defined tasks.
对。
Yeah.
在持续性操作方面表现较差，比如需要始终保持准确性的场景，这些属于比较复杂的领域等等。
Seem less good at, like, you know, ongoing operations where you've gotta be correct and, you know, like, these are kind of these complex spaces and so forth.
所以是的。
And so Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为在引擎中，很多这类工具——显然，我们自己就是使用编码代理最多的人。
I think in the engine, a lot of those like, I mean, obviously, the kind of agent we're we're, like, the highest, highest, highest adopters of is the coding agents ourselves as well.
对吧？
Right?
比如，我们自己开发的代理运行器，现在我们很多产品都是用这些代理构建的。
Like, where even, like, something like agent runners we built, like, we're now building a lot of the product with those agents.
对吧？
Right?
而且而且
Like, and and
你有没有想过，这实际上提升了功能开发的速度？
Have you have you thought that's actually increased feature velocity?
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我们可以看到，确实如此。
We can we can see, like, yeah.
哦，对的。
Oh, yeah.
当人们熟练掌握后，构建东西的速度就会显著提升。
Like, the the when people get good at it, it starts really increasing the velocity with which you can build stuff.
而且，它还提升了顶尖工程师的能力，让他们既能专注处理困难的任务，又能同时轻松处理大量简单的工作并完成它们。
And, also, it increases the capacity of, like, a a really strong engineer to both go do some really hard focused work, but just spin off a bunch of, like, the the easy stuff along the way and get it done.
对吧？
Right?
我刚才想说的是，我认为我们更多是用它来构建执行任务的程序，比如自动化流程，而不是让智能体去自动执行任务，因为那样会变得非常不可预测，对吧？
Like, but what I was saying there is that I still think we are more in the line of using that to build programs that does stuff when it's like automations, rather than having like agents automate stuff, because it becomes like really unpredictable, right?
而且最终，一旦你知道该自动化什么，就会发现实际去自动化它更简单
And in the end, once you know what to automate, it's like simpler to
直接写代码来实现自动化？
To just actually write automate it?
真正去实现自动化，对吧？
To actually automate it, right?
我完全同意。
I totally agree.
但我认为，由于编写自动化脚本的成本低得多，这改变了局面——你会开始构建大量自动化脚本，甚至可能构建大量应用程序和自动化工具，而不是购买很多软件。
But I think the fact that like it's so much cheaper to write automations changes that, like, you start building a lot of automations, and potentially you start building a lot of apps and automations instead of, like, buying a lot of software.
这虽然有点偏离他的观点，但让我想起了一件事。
So this is a bit from his side, but it just reminded me of something.
你知道Max Bischerman吗？就是Airflow和SuperSet的那个家伙。
So you know Max Max Bischerman, the Airflow, you know, super set guy.
他是个资深的开源开发者，创办了一家叫Preset的公司。
So, like, hardcore open source developer has a company called Preset.
他告诉我，最令人惊叹的是
And he was telling me, he's like, you know, the most amazing thing
是的
Yeah.
这些编码代理让我意识到，我只在开源领域工作过。
With these with these coding agents is I've only worked in open source.
目前，我正在参与一个大型开源项目。
Right now, I'm working on a large open source.
这个项目已经存在很长时间了，所以所有代理都很熟悉
This project's been around for a long time, so all the agents know
它。
it.
是的
Yeah.
我们现在主要做前端 JavaScript 相关的工作，而它们在这方面都非常擅长。
We're doing kind of front end JavaScript stuff, which they're all really good at.
所以，是的。
And so Yeah.
你知道的？
You know?
所以，我觉得，然后公司里的所有工程师都相当资深。
So, like, I feel like and then all of the the engineers in the company are, like, pretty senior.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，就像，我们一觉醒来，都成了超级英雄。
So it's like she's like so it's like, we all woke up and we were, like, superheroes.
就像，你知道的？
It was like, you know?
所以，你有这些资深工程师，是的。
And so, like, you've got these senior engineers Yeah.
他们正在像初级工程师一样使用这些编码模型来处理开源代码库。
That are using these coding models like junior engineers on an open source code base.
是的。
Yes.
而且，你知道，速度提升了十倍。
And, you know, the velocity is 10 x.
对吧？
Right?
所以这很有道理。
So that makes a lot of sense.
但我也会拿它和我合作的那些公司比较，它们在做相当新颖的东西，不是前端，还处于实验阶段。
But I also compare it to I mean, I work with companies where they're doing pretty new stuff, and it's not front end, and it's kind of still experimental.
也许它们的开发者经验更少之类的。
And maybe they've got more junior developers or whatever.
我觉得速度根本没有提升。
And I feel like the velocity hasn't increased at all.
所以我会假设，至少在Netlify的情况下，你们做了大量JavaScript、大量前端、大量网页工作，我的意思是，我认为这些模型对你们来说应该相当适用。
So I I would assume, like, at least in the case of Netlify, like, you are doing a lot of JavaScript, lot of front end, a lot of web I mean, I would think that it's probably pretty amenable to these models or
而且我要说，那些熟练掌握它们的人会开始用它们来处理整个技术栈上的各种事情。
And I mean, but I will say that people that get good at them start using them for things across the stack.
对吧？
Right?
我确实看到这种情况了，对吧？
And I see that, right?
但要让它们达到我所说的那种程度，可能需要
But producing can get them to where I go
更资深的开发人员，或者更
More more senior developers or more
更资深的开发人员。
More senior developers.
对吧？
Right?
比如说，想想
Like, think
你需要
you need
我认为，尤其是当你在技术栈中越深入，就越需要真正像一个架构师那样思考。
I I think especially when the deeper you go in the stack, the more you need to really be like kind of an architect.
对吧？
Right?
比如，要让这些代理做正确的事情。
Like, to get these kind of agents to do the right stuff.
对吧？
Right?
而且，当你在技术栈中位置越高，你就越能直接介入并完成工作，而不需要像
Like, and then the higher up you go in the stack, the the more you can now be like, just jump in and do it without like
对。
Right.
任何开发背景。
Without any development background.
是的。
Yeah.
这真是个有趣的时期。
It's kind of a fun time.
对吧？
Right?
这真的很
It's really
有趣。
fun time.
你在写代码吗？
Are are you coding?
我差不多是在写AX文章的时候开始的。
I'm I'm like, so I kind of made it like around the same time I wrote the AX article.
是的。
Yeah.
就在那之前不久，我逐渐把这变成个人目标，就是我想重新学会如何成为一名优秀的开发者。
Like a little before that, I kind of started making it my personal mission that like I wanna learn how to be a really good developer again.
我还开始说，我想把目标定为：即使自己不写任何代码，也能成为同样优秀的开发者。
I also started saying, like, I wanna make it my mission to become an equally good developer without writing any code myself.
是的。
Yeah.
而且最好连代码都不看。
And ideally without looking at code.
那真是
That's
但你还是得这么做，我仍然觉得。
that's still I'd still like, you still need to do that.
对吧？
Right?
不过，我渐渐把这变成了自己的目标，一开始非常令人沮丧。
Like, but but I kinda like started to make it my mission, and in the beginning, it was very frustrating.
现在我觉得这真的很有趣。
And now I think it's really fun.
真的吗？
Really?
现在我经常提交拉取请求。
And now I do a lot of pull requests.
我可能经常让团队感到烦扰。
I probably annoys the team a lot.
你实际上
You're actually
你真的在提交拉取请求吗？
you're actually submitting PRs?
我就是在这么做。
I'm doing that.
等等。
Wait.
但你
But you
没有看过代码吗？
haven't looked at the code?
我的意思是，好吧。
I I mean, okay.
当我向我们的实际代码库提交拉取请求时，我会去查看代码，因为我已经学会了
When I do PRs to our actual code basis, I I do go and look at the code because I've learned
通过惨痛的教训知道
the hard way that
否则团队会看，他们会冲我喊。
otherwise the team does, and they and they shout at me.
所以现在
So so now
我会先去看代码，然后告诉开发人员修复后再提交拉取请求。
I go and look at the code first and tell plot code to fix it before I open the pull request.
对吧？
Right?
比如，我们推出了这个新的智能代理运行器产品，很多设计思路都源于此，因为我希望确保你能在提交拉取请求之前完成整个迭代循环，而不是像GitHub集成那样，你只是让代码助手做点什么，然后你根本不知道它到底
Like, a lot of that has like, we launched this new agent runner product, and a lot of that has, like, informed it because I wanted to make sure that you could actually do the whole, like, cycle of iteration before you open a pull request versus, like, the GitHub integrations where you ask Right.
让代码助手做点什么，然后你收到一个拉取请求，却根本不知道它实际上
Code like, plot code to do something, and then you get a pull request you never knew, like, that actually
真的做了有用的事吗？
did it do something useful.
对吧？
Right?
但我发现，一旦你开始转变这种思维模式，转而专注于上下文工程、提示设计、系统思维，以及引导这个模型，你就能让它完成一些非常惊人的事情。
Like but but I do find, like, that once you start changing that whole mentality to just, like, work through the context engineering and the prompts and, the systems thinking and and, like, guiding this model, it's pretty remarkable what you can get it to do.
而且确实有些情况，说起来挺有意思。
And there's definitely some cases where so it's funny.
有些情况下，我构建的东西，如果我有时间静下心来， uninterrupted 地坐在代码编辑器前亲手写代码，我反而能更快、可能也更好地完成它。
There's some cases where I've built something where realistically, if I had the time to just set time with a code editor in a like uninterrupted stretch and write the code, I would have written it faster, probably better.
但作为CEO，我确实没有
But as a CEO, I definitely don't
也没有那个时间，
And have that time,
但在这种情况下，我仍然能构建出来，是的。
in this case I could still build it, Yeah.
但只是通过启动这个异步运行，在会议间隙查看一下，它进展到哪了？
But just by, like, spinning up this async run, checking on in between meetings, like, where did it go?
它做了什么？
What did it do?
给我一些反馈，再进行一次迭代，以此类推。
Let me give it some feedback and do another iteration and so on.
对吧？
Right?
突然间，你就可以这样工作了，这非常有趣。
Like, so suddenly you can work in that way, and it's a lot of fun.
我的意思是，我只是在做这些家庭项目，当时我正在用 Cursor CLI，而且正在吃晚饭。
I mean, I was just you know, I so I I kinda work on these home projects, and I was actually using, like, the Cursor CLI, and I was at dinner.
我当时好奇自己到底在做什么。
I was curious how I was doing something.
我喜欢。
I like,
检查那些税务。
checking those taxes.
我当时完全就像一个
I was like, totally, like, a
在晚餐上谈论投资交易的风投。
VC at a dinner, like, talking about deals.
我在查看我的编码代理进展如何。
I'm checking how my coding agents are doing.
我完全遇到过同样的情况。
I totally been, like, in the same situation.
这真的很有趣。
And and it's funny.
我注意到，我认识的每一个有技术背景的创始人兼CEO都在做代码审查。
I've noticed, like, every founder CEO with technical background I know.
我现在认识的每个人都在提交拉取请求。
I talk to now are doing pull requests.
是的。
Yeah.
我也知道。
I I know too.
这太棒了。
It's awesome.
这真的太有趣了。
It's just really funny.
我觉得这纯粹是框架的问题。
I I think it's I literally think it's a framework issue.
就像，如果是的话。
Like, if Yeah.
如果编程能像以前那样简单就好了。
If coding was simpler like it used to be Yeah.
每个人还是会写代码，但你现在得学太多不同的东西了。
Like, everybody's would still be coding, but it just got you just have to learn too many different things.
所以，是的。
And so Yeah.
这真的很了不起。
It's really remarkable.
你是否认同人工智能将会带来某种终结？
Do you do you ascribe to the that AI is gonna kinda usher in the dead?
所谓的‘死亡网页’理论，意思是将来只会是代理程序与网站交互，
What's called the dead web theory, where it's like, it's only gonna be agents talking to websites and,
你知道，不再有
you know, there's no there's no longer
一个用户界面问题。
a UI issue.
我明白。
I get it.
我是懂的，但说实话，我根本不相信这一点。
Like, I I get it, but, like, I don't I I I really don't believe in it.
而且我也看不到这种情况。
Like, and I don't see it.
我现在看到的恰恰相反。
I see the opposite happening now.
对吧？
Right?
比如，现在所有事情都在同时发生。
Like, in some everything is happening at the same time.
对吧？
Right?
所以你有大量的生成内容，其他代理会消费这些内容，还有大量的LinkedIn内容，就像Chativity之类的。
Like, so you have a lot of flop generated that, like, other agents consume, and you have, like, like, lots of LinkedIn that's just like Chativity and so on.
对吧？
Right?
我想人们可能在让Chativity从这些内容中总结出要点，然后
I think probably people are asking Chativity to summarize it from it and
等等。
so on.
他们可能会说，显而易见，为了显得高大上，我会用AI来创造一些大东西，然后用AI来阅读和总结它。
They're like, obviously I think the cliche is, like, to sound fancy, I use AI to create something big, and then to read it, you use But AI to summarize
现在也有更多人乐于打造疯狂的东西，这类内容现在非常多，有人在开发以前根本不可能完成的酷炫WebGL游戏等等，有太多事情在发生，我觉得这些理论都低估了人类，像这样的理论太多了，它们都低估了人类的潜力。
there's also just way more people having fun building crazy stuff, and there's a lot of that out there now, and there's people building, like, really cool, like, WebGL games and so on that they could, like, never managed to build before, and, like, there's so much going on that I think that theory just under like, there's so many of these theories I think that just underestimates like humans and like
它创造了一些容量，因为我个人确实访问了更多新网站，是的。
the It create some capacity, because I will say I personally have visited more new websites Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
过去六个月，甚至之前的五年，因为有太多酷炫的东西了。
In the last six months and probably the five years prior just because there's so much more cool stuff.
在过去五年里，我已经把每天早上查看的网站缩减到只有几个了。
I'm like, I've like kind of reduced everything to like a handful of sites that I check every morning in the last five years.
是的。
Yeah.
现在总会有新东西出现。
And now there's always something new.
就像是。
And it's like.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得这完全正确。
I think it's totally true.
我的意思是，我也觉得这只是一个普遍的现象，人们现在构建的东西比以前多得多。
I mean, I I also see it as just a general moment of like people building way more stuff than they did before.
对吧？
Right?
而且我仍然看到有更多人在开发。
Like, and I still see and way more people building.
对吧？
Right?
这又回到了那个观点，即成为开发者变得更容易了。
Like, and that's again back to that idea of like it becomes more accessible to be a developer.
我们长期以来一直理所当然地认为，如果你足够慷慨，就超越JavaScript等等。
We open up like, for so long, we've taken for granted that, again, if you're sort of really generous, go beyond JavaScript and so on.
对吧？
Right?
比如说，你觉得世界上有多少专业开发者？一亿？可能还不到。
Like, let's say what what would you say is, like, like, 100,000,000 professional developers in the world, maybe even less?
我的意思是，我们通常估计大约六千万。
I mean, we we we always estimate 60 roughly.
实际数量可能比这还多。
It's probably more than that.
是的。
Yeah.
如果你特别宽泛地算，可能会说有一亿。
Some like, if you're really generous, you say, like, a 100,000,000.
对吧？
Right?
比如，从大约八十亿人口中来看。
Like, out of, like, what, like, 8,000,000,000 people or something like that.
对吧？
Right?
这仅仅是人类中非常非常小的一部分。
Like, that's like a really, really small part of humankind.
是的。
Yeah.
而其他所有人类只能使用这些开发者为他们构建的软件。
And every other human can only use software that those developer builds for them.
对吧？
Right?
这对这一小部分人来说是一种巨大的限制。
And that's like such a constraint on that part.
对吧？
Right?
对我来说，当这种限制消失时，我们将拥有海量的、难以想象的更多软件，对吧？
Like, and to me, when that constraint goes away, we're just gonna have a lot, like unimaginable amount of more software, right?
是的，也许软件会很糟糕，但它们也会大量涌现。
Like, yeah, maybe software will be bad, but they'll also throw up more.
未来将比我们想象的更加怪异、狂野和奇妙。
The future is gonna be weirder, wilder, and more wonderful than we could imagine.
这是个题外话，但相关的是，我真的很喜欢那个‘Three’。
This is an aside, but it's an adjacency, which is I really love that Three.
JavaScript 正在迎来它的高光时刻。
Js is having a moment.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我也是。
Me too.
我也是。
Me too.
太棒了。
It's amazing.
这太棒了。
It's amazing.
所以对于正在收听的朋友们，Three。
So for those listening, Three.
Js 是一个用于三维的 JavaScript 库。
Js is a JavaScript library for three d.
它一直就是这样，一种那种感觉。
And it's always just been kind of this Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道，为什么你要用网页来做三维呢？
You know, like, why would you use the web for three d?
是的。
Yeah.
你知道吧？
You know?
就像，你知道，你之前没有，那个，你知道的吗？
Like, you know, like, you didn't have, like, a you know?
而现在，已经有完整的、大量游戏被开发出来，多人游戏、高质量的图形都出现了。
And now there's just full on, like, games being written, multiplayer games being written, really high quality graphics.
你最近看到那个了吗？
Like, did you see that one recently?
那简直就是，是的。
It was like Yeah.
那个小行星，微小的行星。
The small planet, tiny planet.
男性到生命。
The male to living.
是的。
Yeah.
它简直太完美了。
It it was like So perfect.
太棒了。
Amazing.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
而且就像是
And and just like
而且它可能根本没用人工智能，但现在确实是这样一个时代，我觉得
And it probably wasn't even using AI, but, like, it is it is a time now that I do think
正是如此。
that Precisely.
它会被编码进去，就像这样，是的。
And it'll get encoded into, like Yeah.
这些语言模型会以此为训练数据。
The the the language models will train on it.
他们会搞明白的，你会开始看到人们轻松地就能生成这样的东西。
They'll figure it out, and you'll start seeing people just like being able to just like spin something like that up.
是的。
Yeah.
这就是为什么我和你都在那儿，因为我们年纪大了。
That's why I and you were there too, because we're we're old.
但这确实让我想起了互联网的早期阶段。
But like, mean, this does remind me of the early days of the web.
真的很有这种感觉。
It really does.
确实如此。
It does.
对吧？
Right?
你永远猜不到会发生什么。
You just never know what to expect.
不。
Nope.
这整个都是创意的部分。
There's this whole creative element.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道的？
You know?
这跟商业完全没关系。
It just has nothing to do with business.
是的。
Yeah.
没人要耍酷。
Nobody to be sass.
有点随机，你知道的，但现在进入这个行业真是个好时机。
It's like kind of random kinda, you know, and it's a cool time to to be in the industry.
这真的很酷。
It's really cool.
我觉得，对我来说，这让我想起了当初刚开始做 Netlify 的时候，那是在什么时候来着？
I and I think, like, for me, it also reminds me just like in a much in small scale and when when when I started Netlify and like when was that?
我大约在2013年开始做这个项目。
So I started working on it in like 2013.
对吧？
Right?
然后我们在2015年3月正式从私有测试版上线。
Like, and then the we launched out of private beta in March 2015.
那时候，前端开发者还被看作是半吊子开发者。
And back then, a front end developers was like they were seen as like a pseudo developer.
对吧？
Right?
那时候，前端开发者就是拿一个 Photoshop 文件，切一下图，然后交给真正的开发者去实现成可运行的东西。
Like, it was like someone that took a Photoshop file, sliced it up, and then handed it to a real developer that would implement it into something working.
对吧？
Right?
那时候有个前端开发者。
Like, there was a front end developer.
当时的一个目标是，如果我们给他们合适的工具链，这些前端开发者会疯狂地把整个东西都做出来。
And part of like the the the mission back then was like, hey, if we give them like the right tool chain, these front end developers will go crazy, and they will just build the whole thing.
对吧？
Right?
我们把所有的后端东西都替他们分开了，那时候就有了 Jamstack 的理念。
Like, we just separate all that back end stuff for them, and like, there was like the jam stack idea
就在这里。
right there.
记得你早期的演讲吗？
Remember your early pit.
我记得你早期的推销，你说最适合静态网站。
I remember your your early pitch where you were like, best for static sites.
也许你会看到一些动态的内容。
Maybe you'll see a little bit of dynamic.
讨厌这个。
Hate this.
认真的，你就像，你
Seriously, you're like, you
你可以用它来搭建静态网站。
can use it for static websites.
然后，看看现在它变成了什么样。
And then, like, now look at it now.
它就像是所有东西。
It's like Everything.
对吧？
Right?
所有东西。
Everything.
就像，所有东西都是用一切构建的。
Like, like, everything is built using everything.
用它来构建。
Built using on it.
对吧？
Right?
而且这些前端开发人员显然是主要的全栈开发人员。
Like and and these front end developers are obviously the main Full state developers.
对吧？
Right?
现在这个问题已经毫无疑问了。
There's, like, no question now.
对吧？
Right?
就像，在这个时刻，我们正面临这种分裂，仍然有人觉得，哦，这些 vibe 开发者还是需要真正的开发人员来深入参与。
Like, and that's just, like, the same moment I think we are with the schism where, like, there's still this notion of, like, oh, these vibe coders, they'll still need, like, a real developer to come, like, dig in.
我们会给他们提供工具，然后我们都看到，这种巨大的
And we will give them the tools, and we all just see, like, this massive
但我要说，硬件开发者也变成了全栈 JavaScript 开发者。
But I will I will say, like, the the hardware developers also became full stack JavaScript developers.
这并不是通过邮件就转变的。
It wasn't by email and shifted.
对吧？
Right?
大家都自然而然地转向了那个方向。
Everybody just kind shifted over that.
对吧？
Right?
我的意思是
Like, I mean
我觉得这种情况还会再次发生。
And I think it'll be the same again.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
我同意。
I agree.
每个人都必须迈出下一步，但届时的群体将大得多。
Everybody has to, like, take that next leap, but it will be a much, much bigger pool.
而且这很可能也会是一种不同的转变：如今，你某种程度上要么是开发者，要么不是。
And it'll probably also be a different shift where, like, today, you're kind of, like, either a developer or not to some degree.
对吧？
Right?
当然，也有跨界的人。
Like, of course, there's mixers.
有些风险投资人也在开发软件。
There's some VCs that develop software.
关于 Bayt 播客
Bayt 提供中文+原文双语音频和字幕，帮助你打破语言障碍，轻松听懂全球优质播客。