露比·塞洛特谈互联网文化、人工智能与品味的未来

美国人不喜欢人工智能。

Americans don't like AI.

对。

Mhmm.

人工智能这个词涵盖的范围很广。

AI is a very broad term.

他们都在用聊天工具。

They all use chat.

而且，说实话，我很喜欢。

And, like, I love it.

我特别喜欢聊天功能。

I love I love chat.

但他们就是不喜欢人工智能。

But they don't like AI.

他们觉得人工智能就像个吓人的东西，比如会让我失业之类的。

There's the boogeyman of, like, I'm gonna lose my job.

对。

Mhmm.

但当我跟妈妈们和布莱恩·塔格斯聊的时候，她们会说，哦，是的。

But when I talk to mothers and Brian tags, they're like, oh, yeah.

比如，我的水龙头漏水了什么的。

Like, I had a leak in my in my faucet, whatever.

我拍了张照片。

I took a photo.

对。

Mhmm.

大概一两个小时后，我就把那东西修好了。

And in about an hour or two, was able to fix that thing.

我太喜欢了。

I love that.

这里其实有个语言上的问题：这项技术能为我做什么，与它在不远的将来可能带来的负面影响之间，存在一些混淆。

There's a bit of a language issue here around what does this technology do for me versus what is the negative impact that's coming in a somewhat near potential future.

今天的节目来自我们的推荐收听列表，其中精选了来自我们更广泛网络中一些引人注目的对话。

Today's episode comes from our list of recommended listening, where we feature standout conversations from people across our broader network.

这一期让我们印象深刻，因为它对人工智能、互联网文化以及技术如何悄然重塑我们沟通和彼此联系的方式提出了深刻的见解。

This one stuck with us for its thoughtful perspective on AI, Internet culture, and the ways technology is quietly reshaping how we communicate and relate to one another.

MTS的主持人索菲亚·杜和索菲亚·普契尼邀请到了设计师、网络民族志学者、纽约大学教授Ruby J. Thelot。

MTS hosts Sofia Dew and Sofia Puccini are joined by designer, cyberethnographer, and NYU professor Ruby J.

他们将一起探讨数字社区、网络身份、品味，以及生活在快速发展的技术中意味着什么。

Thelot to discuss digital communities, online identity, taste, and what it means to live alongside rapidly evolving technology.

今天，我和我的搭档主持人一起，邀请到了Ruby Justice Thelot，他是一位设计师、艺术家、网络民族志学者，也是纽约大学综合设计与媒体专业的教授。

Today, I'm joined by my cohost, as well as Ruby Justice Thelot, who is a designer, artist, cyberethnographer, and professor at the Integrated Design and Media at NYU.

他写过很多文章，从互联网核心文化到数字记忆，再到AI伴侣、创造力和文化的未来。

So he's written about everything from Internet full core to digital memory to AI companions, creativity, and the future of culture.

我认为他对真正与技术共存意味着什么有着最独到的见解之一。

And I think he has one of the most interesting perspectives on what it really means to live alongside this technology.

Ruby，非常高兴今天能邀请到你。

So Ruby, I am so excited to have you on today.

大家最关心的问题就是，什么是网络民族志研究者？

The question on everyone's mind, what is a cyberethnographer?

还有，这个领域这些年是怎么演变的？

And also how has the field evolved through the years?

网络民族志研究者就是研究人们在网上的群体行为以及他们做什么的人。

So a cyberethnographer is someone who studies groups of people online and how they behave and what they do.

我的研究范围很广，从研究兽迷群体，到现在研究人们如何使用Instagram。

So my research ranges from studying furries all the way to now studying how people are using Instagram.

哇。

Wow.

我最近为Protein写了一篇文章，问人们他们怎么理解Instagram快拍对他们的意义。

I had a recent piece for protein where I asked people how they what they understood, what an Instagram story like meant to them.

所以大概有500人参与，还有20个左右的深度访谈，目的是建立一个词汇表，解释这种数字互动对人们意味着什么。

And so around 500 people, 20 sort of closer interviews to build lexicon, a glossary of what does this digital interaction mean to people.

这是对内容的欣赏吗？

Is it content appreciation?

是浪漫关系的表达吗？

Is it romantic affiliation?

还是说，只是朋友间的互动延续？我针对Instagram快拍点赞，总结出了这三种互动类型。

Or is it just, you know, friendship continuation, which are the three sort of the three part type meeting structure that I built for Instagram story likes.

最近我和Mozilla基金会合作，做了一项关于“密友”功能的研究。

With the Mozilla Foundation recently, I did research on close friends.

好的。

Okay.

现在Instagram上有个新功能叫“密友”。

So we have this new thing now called close friends on Instagram.

如果我把你设为密友，那我们算是熟人吗？

If you're in my close friends, are we acquaintances?

还是说，我们像家人一样？

Are we, like, families?

以及，我们是怎么决定谁可以进入这些不同的数字空间的呢？

And and how do we choose who gets to be in these different sort of digital spaces?

这些都是两三年以前不存在的新行为，我们需要为它们建立理解和语言体系。

These are novel behaviors that did not exist two years or three years ago, and we need to build understanding and language around them.

这也是我研究的一个重要部分。

And that's a big part of my research.

对。

Yeah.

有趣的是，网络民族志其实并不是什么新鲜事物。

What's interesting here is that cyber ethnography is not something that's necessarily new.

这个领域并不新。

This is not a new field.

不过，我猜这个领域在过去几年里变化很大，至少在过去十年里是这样，因为技术进步了，新的社交媒体类型出现了，也带来了新的网络行为。甚至阿尔法世代，也就是比我们更年轻的一代，他们与技术互动的方式和我们Z世代以及千禧一代完全不同。

However, my hunch is that this field has probably been changing a lot in the last few years, or at least in the past decade with just the progress of technology and the introduction of new types of social media as new types of online behaviors, even just Gen Alpha, just a generation underneath has a whole different interaction with their technology than we do as Gen Z or then millennials above us.

所以我很想听听你的看法，这个领域整体上发生了怎样的变化。

And so I'm curious to get your perspective on how this whole space has changed.

说到这个，像丹娜·博伊德这样的顶尖学者……

I mean, there's the GOATs like Dana Boyd.

她是我研究中的一大灵感来源。

I mean, she's a big inspiration for my own research.

我试图理解‘密友’这个概念，很大程度上就是参考了她对Myspace前八好友的研究。

A big part of me trying to understand what close friends meant was looking at her research on Myspace top eight.

她在微软待了很久，后来在康奈尔大学当教授，还领导过微软研究院的一个团队。

When she was at Microsoft for a long time, at Cornell as a professor, and she was leading a team at Microsoft Research.

所以人们其实早就开始做这些事了，但当然，现在的节奏越来越快。

And so people have been doing these things for a long time, but of course, the cycles are accelerating.

新功能推出的速度也越来越快。

And the features are getting shipped faster and faster.

而且这些变化会带来——我喜欢这么说——每一项新技术都会改变我们的存在方式、交流方式和信仰方式。

And we have these changes in, you know, I like to say that every novel technology leads to changes in being, communicating, and belief.

这些变化越快，我们作为研究者或学者做研究、做访谈的时间就越少。

And the faster these things happen, the less time we have as researchers or academics to do the research and do the interviews.

但我认为这项工作仍然必须做，因为有几百万甚至几十亿人在使用这些工具和功能。

But I think it still needs to be done because million, if not billions of people are using these tools and these features.

对。

Yep.

是的。

Yep.

完全同意。

Totally.

所以我有个问题，基本上就是，要多久才能识别出网上出现的新社会现象？

So one of my questions was, like, basically, how long does it take to identify a new social phenomena online?

然后其中有多少是能感知到的，又有多少是感知不到的？

And then how many of them are actually perceptible versus imperceptible?

因为我觉得，比如说，很多老师如果教的是年轻孩子，比如阿尔法一代，他们可能会困惑很久，搞不懂这个新的六七八九是什么东西。

Because I think, for example, like a lot of teachers, if they have young kids and they're teaching like Gen Alpha, they will, like, be very confused for a long time about, like, what is this new six seven thing?

嗯。

Mhmm.

然后他们就像，完全有一层东西是他们接触不到的。

And and so they like, they there's a whole layer that they are just, like, not privy to.

那你看到了什么？

So, what do you see?

这是互联网上最难判断的事情之一。

So this is one of the hardest things to do on the Internet.

对。

Yeah.

我常说，这到底是真实存在的现象，还是三个TikTok视频披着风衣假装出来的？

I like to say, is this a real thing or is this three TikToks in a trench coat?

对吧？

Right?

因为很多时候，感觉像是一种趋势、一种新潮的社会行为，其实可能只是非常微小、非常小众的现象。

Because oftentimes what feels like a trend, what feels like a novel social behavior can just be super micro, super small.

没错。

Right.

所以我的公司R2S，我们在131做的事情，就是大量做社交媒体的定量分析，来看看这个东西到底有多普遍。

And so what my firm R2S, what we do at one hundred thirty one is we do a lot of like quantitative analysis of social media to see how prevalent is this thing really.

六七这个现象确实是真实的。

Six seven was definitely real.

我们不仅在社交媒体上看到相关提及的增加，还看到这种行为渗透到了现实生活中。

Not only do we see an increase in the mentions of that on social media, we also see the behavior seeped through the IRL.

当我和老师们访谈，或者我在全国各地旅行，询问人们如何使用科技时，我也看到这种现象跨越到了现实世界。

And when you're doing interviews with teachers, when I'm traveling the country asking people how they're using technology, I'm also seeing that sort of leap over into the physical world.

一个很好的例子是，有几篇文章讨论了一种叫‘异性悲观主义’的现象。

A good example of this is, there's been a few articles about this thing called heteropessimism.

这指的是某些直女对和男性约会持有的一种排斥态度。

This is the sort of aversion that certain straight women have about dating men.

我当时就想，好吧。

And I was like, okay.

这到底是不是真的？

Is this a real thing?

于是我们就去调查了。

So we went.

我们做了什么？我们看了看TikTok上关于约会的最热门帖子。

What did we We did we took a look at the top posts about dating on TikTok.

我们筛选了超过一百万次观看的内容，看了两千个视频，然后，你知道的，用脚本识别了一下，从2020年开始，异性别悲观主义在TikTok、Reels以及不同平台上有没有增长？

Editing over a million views, take a look at 2,000 videos, and then, you know, using the the scripts identifying, did heteropessimism grow since 2020 on TikTok, Reels, and across different platforms?

我们发现约会内容大多是积极的。

And we found that dating content is mostly positive.

但我们亲爱的记者们，我觉得因为他们的算法，可能被推送了很多那种内容，然后他们就以为那是个趋势。

But our beloved journalists, I think because of their algorithms, I think are getting hit with a lot of that content, and then they think it's a trend.

但当我查看数据，看了五年里排名前两千的视频，我可以说它其实随着时间的推移有所下降。

But when I take a look at the data, at the top 2,000 videos across five years, I can say that it's actually kind of decreased over time.

而且大多数约会内容，大部分情况下是积极的，大概占40%到50%。

And most dating content is, for the most part, positive, about 40 or 50%.

是的。

Yeah.

这太有意思了。

That's fascinating.

所以这有点像那种少数人声音很大的现象

So there is like a sort of sort of loud minority phenomenon

确实存在

happening

在内容方面。

with content.

你觉得有多少趋势，它们的比例完全是错的，就是不对的？

How many of the trends do you see are, like, entirely sort of like the proportion of them is just, like, wrong, like erroneous.

而且不只是少数人声音大，那些写文章的人也有特定的生活背景，这些背景会让他们接触到某些内容。

And it's not only the loud minority, it's also the people who write about them have specific You know, they have specific lives that push certain things to them.

所以这也会影响他们报道的内容。

And so that also has an influence on what gets reported.

所以我算是个评论者。

So I'm a critic.

我……我为杂志撰稿，有时候我会找选题。

I'm a I I I write for magazines, and sometimes I'm looking for a piece.

然后我会去社交媒体上，试着找些有意思的内容。

And I'm gonna go on social media, and I'm gonna try to find something interesting.

但这并不意味着，不管是时尚潮流还是像“六七”这样的行为，在美国其他地方真的有多普遍。

That does not mean whether it's a fashion trend, whether it's a behavior like Six Seven, that that actually has any prevalence in the rest of America.

你懂吧？

You know?

那你怎么判断呢？

So how do you determine that?

你怎么实际判断哪些东西是真正普遍的？

How do you actually determine what has prevalence?

你怎么判断哪些可能只是你算法里的偏见，或者是其他记者的算法里的偏见？

How do you determine what might just be a bias see that's on your algorithm or on a different journalist's algorithm?

嗯，你会做研究，但你知道，有时候赶着写稿子，没时间做全面的调研。

Well, you do research, but you know, sometimes when you run and write a piece, you don't have time to do full research.

所以你会直接去采访那个TikTok用户，就是发第一条帖子的人。

So you actually will interview the TikToker, the person who's made that first post.

所以确实还是有事情在发生的。

So there still is something happening.

但我一直想问的是，这种现象只存在于布什维克，还是说外面也有？

But the question to me is always, is this only in Bushwick or is this actually happening outside?

对。

Yeah.

说得太对了。

That's so true.

那你观察到文化通常是从哪里开始的呢？

So what have you observed about where culture starts?

因为很多文化理论家都讨论过这个问题，说文化往往起源于一些非常封闭的环境，然后才突破边界扩散开来。

Because there's been a lot of culture theorists that talk about this, of how they're very contained environments that sort of breach containment.

而且这些都是一些很小的亚文化，说实话还挺古怪的。

And it's all very small subcultures that are honestly pretty weird.

比如像‘非自愿独身者’这种亚文化，最后也慢慢渗透出来了。

For example, the incel subculture ended up trickling out.

现在大家都会用一些词，比如举个例子。

And now everyone uses terms like, for example.

网上这种例子已经多得数不清了。

And there's been a million examples of this sort of thing happening online.

你提到了兽迷。

You mentioned furries.

我觉得这也是一个例子，就是有一小群核心的人。

I feel like this is another one where it's like a very core group of people.

然后呢，有些东西就开始从那里冒出来。

And then, like, things just start, like, coming out of there.

就像是从那里扩散开来。

Like, they start emanating out of there.

对。

Yeah.

我们现在肯定处在一个我称之为多元文化的时期，对吧，以前只有十个、五个频道，大家都看同样的东西。

We're definitely in a period of what I would call a pluriculture, right, where before we had ten, five channels, we all watch the same things.

现在我们处于一个多元文化时代，有很多非常强大、富有创造力且非常活跃的文化中心，它们有时相互交融，有时又相距甚远。

Now we are in a pluriculture where there's very strong, very generative, very active cultural epicenters that are kind of sometimes touching each other, sometimes far away from each other.

那种感觉就像《白莲花》或《继承之战》这样的剧集一样宏大。

That's something that feels as big as like a show like White Lotus or Succession.

如果你看看这些剧集的收视率，再对比一下《陆军野战医院》这样的老剧，甚至对比《最后生还者》的大结局，其实没多少人看过。

If you take a look at what the viewership for that is compared to a show like MASH, compared to even this finale for loss, not that many people have seen it.

但如果你在X平台上，就会感觉好像每个人都在看《继承之战》。

But if you're on X, it feels like everyone's watching Succession.

对。

Right.

然而，当你把数据跟《生活大爆炸》这种剧一比，发现看《继承之战》的人更多，这听起来有点不可思议。

And yet the numbers kind of when you compare them to even a show like more people watching Big Mac, they're watching Succession, which kind of sounds crazy when you think about it.

所以对我来说，很重要的一点是——我和我的朋友Rui一起写过一篇论文，叫《互联网的巴尔干化与巴别化》。

And so I think what's very important for me, and you know, my friend Rui and I worked on this paper called The Balkanization and Babbilification of the Internet.

所谓巴尔干化，就是指我们的单一文化分裂成这些小小的数字飞地。

So the balkanization is this splitting of our monoculture into these small digital enclaves.

你看，它们已经被割裂了。

You know, they've been balkanized.

而在我们那些封闭的数字小岛上，我们又在做什么呢？

And on our little insular digital islands, what do we do?

我们正在经历物种分化。

We have speciation.

就像加拉帕戈斯群岛上的海龟一样，我们发展出了自己的语言。

We develop our own languages, much like the turtles on the Galapagos Islands.

对吧？

Right?

我们有了自己独特的方言，自己专属的语言。

Our own specific vernacular, our own specific language.

而封闭、孤立的问题在于，当出现像‘奢侈最大化’这样能破圈的东西时，由于我们已经变得像巴别塔一样混乱，发展出了各自独特、小众的微型语言，我们在网上交流时，已经不知道彼此在说什么了。

And the problem with containment, with being so insular, is that when we have something like lux maxing or anything that breaks well, because now we've been sort of babelified, we've we've developed our own unique idiosyncratic, microlanguages, we no longer know what things mean when we speak to each other online.

你明白吗？

You know?

我们用的是同一个词，但在兽迷圈、在非自愿独身者圈、在高端时尚推特圈，不管是什么圈子，同一个词的意思可能完全不同，因为你一直待在那个数字泡泡里。

We're using the same word, but they have a completely different meaning if you're in the furry community, if you're in the incel community, if you're in a, you know, high fashion Twitter, whatever it is, and you're using the same word, it means completely different things because you've been in that digital bubble.

这种语言碎片化在我看来非常危险。

And that's the kind of that babblification to me is very dangerous.

而且这些数字泡泡背后还有外部推手，把人们分到不同的泡泡里，这样更容易针对他们做营销。

And those digital bubbles too, there's some external incentives to group people into specific individual bubbles because it's easier to market to them.

就像在Spotify上，他们会给你贴标签，比如‘你是粉色小马公主流行女孩’。

And, you know, even on like Spotify, it's like, oh, you are a pink pony princess pop girl.

然后大家就会觉得，‘哦，这就是我的文化’。

And then everyone's like, oh, like, this is the my culture.

‘这些是我认同的人’。

These are the people I identify with.

人们几乎都渴望找到归属感，觉得自己是某个部落的一员。

And it's almost people want to feel like they're part of a tribe.

与此同时，公司也希望我们觉得自己属于某个部落。

And at the same time, companies want us to also feel like a part of the tribe.

你有没有发现，这种情况越来越普遍，我们的新文化里出现了这么多极其细小的亚群体？

Are you seeing that just happen more and more and more and more that there's are just such tiny sub niches of our new culture?

是的。

Yeah.

其实，我做咨询工作的时候，比如给H&M或者百事可乐做项目，很大一部分工作就是深入这些小型数字社群，然后给它们做画像。

I mean, a big part of my job when I do consulting, you know, anywhere from H and M to Pepsi is to kind of go into these small digital communities and like map them.

对。

Yeah.

这样H&M就知道该卖什么了，你明白吧？

So that H and M knows what to sell, you know?

有意思。

Interesting.

H&M最近推出了一款Dime Square主题的T恤，这就是基于对不同数字社群的研究结果。

H and M recently had a Dime Square shirt last And so that is based on research that was done on different digital communities.

我几周前去纽约待了两周，不知道你清不清楚Dime Square，那是一个新兴的微型社区。

As someone who's in New York for two weeks over a few weeks ago, I'm not sure if know Dime Square, it's a new micro neighborhood.

哦，知道。

Oh, know.

但人们就是想做营销，对吧？

But so people want to market, right?

他们希望能说，好，我有这么一群特定的人。

They want to be able to say, okay, I have this specific group.

而且这也让算法的工作更简单，因为标题、名称、命名方式让算法更容易识别。

And it also makes the job of the algorithm easier because the title, the name, the nomenclature makes it more legible to the algorithm.

这在我们当今的世界里是怎么体现的呢？现在不只是人在决定这些算法，而是人工智能在决定这些算法。

How is this now playing into our current modern day world where you don't just have people who are deciding these algorithms, but rather it's artificial intelligence that are deciding these algorithms?

这是不是在加速这些微社区的形成、这些标签的诞生、以及这些由算法而非人类做出的决策？

Is this accelerating the development of these micro communities, of these labelings, of almost these decisions that get made by algorithms, not less humans.

我最近写了一篇文章，叫《机器品味与随机艺术》，里面就聊到了这个。

So I have an essay that came out recently called machinic taste for the random art, where I kinda talk about this.

大家可能看到了Cloudflare今年发布的数据，他们监测到的互联网流量中，大约50%是机器人。

So we might have seen the numbers from from Cloudflare coming out this year, about 50% of internet traffic as they see it is bots.

这会产生什么影响？

What does this do?

所以有一段时间，人们发帖是给朋友看的。

So you had a period of time where people were posting to their friends.

然后开始给粉丝发帖，再后来就是给观众发帖。

Then you started posting to an to their followers, and then they start posting an audience.

当创作者或发帖人积累了一定观众后，你会发现他们的内容会发生变化。

When a creator or a poster develops an audience, what we see is that their content changes.

他们会被观众所左右。

They become captured by their audiences.

也就是说，当他们发现某种内容效果好，就会倾向于做更多类似的内容。这个“内容被观众左右”的概念是我从我的好朋友、Reddit洞察主管Matt Klein那里学到的。

Meaning when they see that something works, they tend to do more of The the content of audio capture I get from my my dear friend, Matt Klein, who's the head of insights at Reddit.

现在的问题是，不仅存在观众左右内容的情况，而且要想触达你的观众，中间还有一个把关者，那就是算法。

The thing that's happening now is that not only is there audience capture, but to get to your audience, there's also a gatekeeper, which is the algorithm.

对。

Yeah.

这就是为什么MrBeast每个视频都那样，配个大字标题。

That's why MrBeast looks like that on every single video with a big text.

对吧？

Right?

就连我们喜欢的那些科技播客，为了博取播放量，也差不多都摆出MrBeast那种表情。

And even our beloved tech podcasters also kinda do the same kind of MrBeast face in order to get views.

所以现在既有观众绑架，又有算法绑架。

And so you have audience capture, you have algorithmic capture.

而当你的观众一半是机器人、一半是真人时，我们突然发现，机器绑架或者说代理绑架也开始出现了。

And now when your audience is now 50% bot, 50% human, we suddenly see machinic or agentic capture happening too.

因为现在回复你帖子的，不光是真人，还有机器人——我们在X平台上就能看到这种情况。

Because who is responding to your post, we see this on x, it's not just human, it's also bots.

对。

Yeah.

于是就有了这么一支舞，一支机器、算法和人类观众之间的三足舞。

And so there's this waltz, this three legged waltz between machine, algorithm, and your human audience.

如果我们预测，像我预测的那样，机器人的数量会增加，那么突然之间，可能就只剩下机器人在创作内容了。

If we predict, as I do, that the number of bots is going to increase, suddenly it may just be that we will only have bots making things.

对吧？

Right?

我们只会看到AI生成的内容和AI观众。

We'll only have AI generated content and AI audience.

然后我们就会看到我所说的机器审美。

And suddenly what we'll see is what I call machinic taste.

我们真的会看到审美倾向是什么？

We'll actually get to see what are the aesthetic proclivities?

在智能体与智能体的连接中，审美偏好是什么样的？

What are the aesthetic preferences of an agent to agent connection?

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

这对我来说真的特别有意思。

That is absolutely fascinating to me.

你觉得这些智能体会有多样化的偏好，还是说它们会趋向某种统一？

Do you think that the, like, agents will have diversified preferences, or, like, do you think that there will be, like, some sort of conversion?

简单来说，就是智能体会不会有自己的亚文化？

Like, you know, will agents have subcultures is basically

这跟你们之前聊的有点像。

Kind of what you guys were talking about before.

如果我们有一个丰富的大语言模型生态系统，里面有不同类型的模型和不同的权重，那我们可以推测它们会有自己特定的审美偏好。

If we have a rich LLM ecosystem with a different kind of models and different kind of weights, then I we can one can surmise that they'll have their own specific aesthetic preferences.

太棒了。

That's awesome.

说到审美，你写过一篇文章，或者参加过一个活动，主题是‘为什么没有新的美学风格了？’

So speaking of aesthetics, you wrote a piece about or or you participated in an event about, like, why are there no new aesthetics?

所以我想听听你的看法，因为这个问题我也一直在想。

So I wanted to get your take on this because this is something that I think about all the time.

就连泰勒·考恩这样的人，都设立了奖学金，希望有人能创造出一种新的美学风格。

Even people like Tyler Cowen have, like, created fellowships for, like, somebody please make a new aesthetic.

那你觉得这是为什么呢？

So why do you think this is?

在讲座里，我首先觉得，其实有很多新的美学风格。

So in the lecture, I think the first thing is that there are many new aesthetics.

只是它们没有成为主流。

They're just not mass.

而要创造一种新的主流美学非常困难，因为很大程度上，大众文化已经被金融资本所吞噬。

And it's very difficult to make a new mass aesthetic because for the most part, mass culture has been subsumed by finance.

我举了建筑方面的例子。

I give the example of architecture.

我也举了电影方面的例子，对吧？

I give examples in movies, right?

如果你看一下续集电影的数量变化趋势，就会发现现在的续集比过去多得多。

If you take a look at the graph of sequels over time, just way more sequels than there were before.

但我觉得，作为观众，我们也有责任去寻找那些新颖的东西。

But I think we also have, as an audience, a responsibility to seek out the things that are novel.

而且，你知道，我说新的美学需要去探索。

And, you know, I say new aesthetics require search.

新的美学也需要一种新的哲学。

New aesthetics require a novel philosophy as well.

对吧？

Right?

我们需要开始思考这个世界会变成什么样。

We need to start to think about what the world is going to be.

新的美学需要一种对未来的新愿景。

New aesthetics require a novel vision of the future.

对。

Yep.

另外，新的美学是从融合中产生的。

Also, that new aesthetics emerge from synthesis.

就像有个小孩，在YouTube上做那种超棒的巴西放克混日本流行音乐。

Like, it's the kid who's making this amazing kinda like Brazilian funk that's like mixed with, like, Japanese pop right now that's being made on YouTube.

我觉得那孩子面前摆着三个屏幕。

And I'm I think it's a kid with three screens.

他一边玩《反恐精英》，

He's like playing Counter Strike.

一边听巴西民谣，同时还听着动漫音乐。

He's listening like, he's listening to to Brazilian folk and, like, also listening to anime at the same time.

然后音乐就这么融合出来了，没错。

And that's how the music sort of like Yes.

对。

Yeah.

这就成了新的美学风格。

And that's become the new aesthetic.

是的。

Yeah.

巴西放克动漫。

Brazilian funk anime.

对。

Yeah.

但这事儿确实在发生。

So but it's it's happening.

而且，是的。

And like Yeah.

我觉得这跟第一名完全不一样——我放了埃拉·兰利的《追逐德克萨斯》，因为那是美国排名第一的歌。

I think it's not at all like the number one I played Ella Langley's Chasing Texas because I was like that's the number one song in America.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

所以，这跟那种显性偏好是有区别的，就是那首歌是第一名。

And so there's a difference between the revealed preference of like that's the number one song.

人们总说想要新东西，但我们真的在接触新事物吗？

People say we want new things, but are we actually engaging with new things?

我们真的给那些新人机会了吗？

Are we actually giving that kid a shot?

对我们现在的文化产业来说，这很难做到，因为他们的所有决策都已经金融化了。

It's very difficult for our current culture industry to do so because all their decisions have been financialized.

他们拍电影，得先评估票房前景好不好；选歌手，也得看人家在Instagram上有没有粉丝基础，觉得歌能火才会签。

They will make a movie if they think that it's gonna place well, do well, they'll pick a person who already has a following on Instagram if they think the song is gonna do well.

最后，我最痛心的一点是——这也是我作为评论员在反思自己的职业——评论家们也不再尽本分了。

And the last thing that I deplore, and this is like me talking about my own job as a critic, is that critics also are no longer doing their job.

对吧？

Right?

因为我们在广告驱动的平台上发表内容。

Because we publish on platforms that are advertising based.

所以我们不能再像以前那样犀利批评，或者去推荐那些几乎没人会在意的东西。

And so we can't be as mean and as critical as we used to be, or uplift something that like very little people are going to care about.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得现在有一种激励，就是所谓的‘流行主义’，要更受欢迎，因为平台靠点击量生存。

There's like an incentive to, I think, we know the poptivism to be more popular because the platform lives on clicks.

对。

Yeah.

所以你几乎是在根据这些算法可能会推广的内容，来设计自己的判断和品味。

So you're almost designing your own human judgment, your own human taste based off of what these algorithms are probably going to be promoting.

我也很好奇，你对‘品味’这个词本身怎么看？

I am also curious to get your takes on what taste even means.

你写了很多关于这方面的内容。

You write a lot about it.

我觉得这个词被误解得很深。

And I think this is a very misunderstood term.

连我自己都经常听到大家说，‘品味是AI时代唯一的护城河’，各种讨论都是围绕这个。

Even I personally, it's like, okay, everyone's like, oh, taste is the only moat in the AI age and all of these conversations about it.

我当时就想，好吧，个人偏好，就是有好的风格。

And I was like, okay, personal preference, like having good style.

嗯，有意思。

Okay, interesting.

读了你的作品，你真的深入挖掘了这个词背后的历史含义，以及它如何几乎与道德和其他方面联系在一起。

Reading your works, you really go through the actual historical meaning behind this and how it's almost connected to morality and all of these other aspects of it.

我觉得这是一个非常重要的信息，可能还没有被充分讨论。

And I think this is a really important information that maybe isn't talked about quite enough.

我很想听听你的看法。

I'm curious to get your perspective here.

我写了一本书叫《品味随笔》，其中第一篇就是《品味简史》。

So I wrote a book called A Few Essays on Taste, where the first essay is called A Brief History of Taste.

我在书中论证，品味不仅仅是审美偏好。

And I make the case that taste is not just aesthetic preference.

品味是人们进行道德消费的一种方式。

Taste is a way for people to consume virtuously.

品味这个问题出现在17世纪，当时人们需要指导，知道该如何正确地消费。

The question of taste emerged in the seventeenth century at a time where people needed guidance as to how to consume properly.

1688年，光荣革命后英国通过了《权利法案》，贵族的权力受到了限制。

So in 1688, the Bill of Rights happens in England after the Glorious Revolution, and the nobility's powers are restrained.

随着他们政治权力的丧失，文化权力也随之减弱。

And as they lose political power, they also lose cultural power.

与此同时，英国殖民地也在扩张。

At the same time, you have the growth of the British colonies.

英国本土积累了巨额财富。

You have immense amounts of wealth that are being generated in The United Kingdom.

突然之间，出现了一个新兴的资产阶级，一个新的精英阶层诞生了，而人们认为这种过度奢侈的兴起会导致社会的堕落。

And suddenly, have this nouvelle bourgeoisie, you have this sort of new elite that emerges, and there's a belief that this emergence of excessive luxury will lead to the decay of society.

对吧？

Right?

甚至，马萨科拉在1977年的《奢侈》一书中写道，他们认为过度会导致柔弱化，男性会失去阳刚之气，因为一切都太……正是在这种真空状态下，在旧贵族文化权力削弱的过程中，品味这个问题才浮现出来。

There's even, Masacola writes in Luxury in 1977, says, you know, that they believe that excess would lead to effeminacy, that men would lose their masculinity because And things were too so it is in the vacuum, in the reduction of the cultural power of the previous nobility, that the question of taste emerges.

所以像沙夫茨伯里伯爵、亚历山大·蒲柏这样的人，在17和18世纪就开始探讨这个问题。

And so you have people like the Earl of Shaftesbury, people like Alexander Pope who write about this in the seventeenth and eighteenth century.

我觉得有意思的是，我们现在也处于类似的位置。

What's interesting to me is that we're in a similar position now.

我们正在经历一场类似的工业革命。

We're entering a similar industrial revolution.

我们正面临——或者说即将面临，甚至可能已经身处——巨额财富被创造出来的时代，我们也在问自己：怎样才能有道德地消费？

We are faced with, or at the eve, or maybe in the midst of immense amounts of wealth being created, and we're asking ourselves, how do we consume virtuously?

所以，品味这个问题才会再次浮现。

And that is why the question of taste is emerging.

这跟17、18世纪的英格兰很像。

It mirrors seventeenth and eighteenth century England Like in that

这是一种自发形成的自我管理结构，某种程度上，这也像是一种生存本能，你知道，现在内容那么多，垃圾信息也那么多。

a self governing sort of structure that emerges so that people In a way, it's kind of like a survival instinct too, you know, like so much content being out there and so much slop being out there.

值得注意的是，蒲柏和沙夫茨伯里告诉我们——沙夫茨伯里是英国传统中第一位美学家。

And so what's notable about this is that what Pope and Shadbury tells us, Shabri is the first aesthetician of the English tradition.

他说，品味就是与自然和谐一致。

He says, taste is harmony with nature.

对吧？

Right?

因为他有点像自然神论者，他认为，如果自然就是上帝，那么自然就是美，品味和决策就必须符合统一与和谐。

Because he's a kind of a deist, he says, well, if nature is God, and so nature is beauty, taste, the decisions must be in line with what unity, harmony.

这就是他对品味的看法。

And that is his perspective on taste.

所以那些暴发户，那些没有品味的人，你知道，蒲柏是怎么说的：他的房子毫无比例可言，大门特别大，他自己站在门边就像只虫子。

And so the nouveau riche, the person who's tasteless, you know, I think the way Pope says like, his house looks like a no proportions, like a big, big gate, and then he looks like an insect next to the gate.

湖看起来像大海。

The lake looks like an ocean.

对吧？

Right?

一切都太大了，因为钱太多了。

Everything's too big because there's too much wealth.

对。

Right.

所以它强调一种自然和谐的克制，也就是有品位的选择，因为做出好的审美决定本身就是一种美德。

And so it pushes for a natural harmonious restraint, you know, tasteful decision because it is virtuous to make good aesthetic decisions.

是的。

Yeah.

这几乎让我们变得难以被掌控。

It's almost we become ungovernable.

好的品味意味着我无法被塞进算法设计的小框框里。

Good taste means I can't be fit into this little box that the algorithm is designed for this.

当人们谈论品味的重要性时，这不仅仅是关于个人偏好或审美本身，而是一个更大的使命——你如何才能真正变得难以被掌控？

And it's almost when people say the importance of taste, it's not just about having a preference or it's not just about the aesthetics of it, but it's this bigger mission of how do you actually become ungovernable?

你怎么才能看穿这些算法之类的东西？

How can you see past these algorithms and all that?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

这真是太美了。

That that is so beautiful.

这个关于美德的点，我得好好琢磨琢磨。

Like, the virtuous point, I just gotta keep ruminating on it.

你觉得在数字时代，品味除了审美偏好之外，还会以哪些方式体现出来？

How do you think how else do you think taste manifests beyond just, like, aesthetic preference in the digital age age?

我觉得有趣的是，品味可以体现在一个人生活的方方面面。

I mean, what's interesting to me is that I think it could be effectuated around so many different facets of one of one's life.

对吧？

Right?

如果品味真的是一种美德，那美德就体现在日常行为中。

If if it is truly virtue, then virtue is about like daily actions.

明白。

Mhmm.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

我不想搞得像什么人生导师或自我提升专家似的，但一个人确实可以在人生的不同阶段做出各种选择。

And not to be like guru and self help y, but like one can make decisions in many different years of their life.

我挺喜欢在旧金山人们谈论品味和问题定义的方式。

I do like in SF when people talk about like taste and also problems define.

对吧？

Right?

有些问题是高尚的，有些问题可能就没那么高尚了。

And there are virtuous problems and some problems that are a bit less virtuous perhaps.

对。

Yeah.

但本质上，这是一个如何应对富足的问题。

But fundamentally it is a question of how to deal with abundance.

对吧？

Right?

现在我们拥有丰富的智能和能力，问题在于如何应对这种丰富，以免它破坏和摧毁社会。

Right now we have abundance of intelligence, of capabilities, and it is a question of how to deal with that so that this abundance does not wreck and destroy society.

是的。

Yeah.

这就是品位的意义和功能。

That is the purpose and the function of taste.

用科幻的话说，我们称之为信噪比。

In SF speak, we we call it like signal to noise ratio.

信噪比。

Signal to noise ratio.

这倒是很科幻的说法。

That's like the very SF way of putting it.

你怎么比较和对比，比如，你知道，我们有纽约的Dime Square现象。

How would you like compare and contrast sort of the like you know, we have, like, the Dime Square phenomenon in New York.

这是一种非常不同的文化景观。

It's a very different cultural landscape.

然后我们还有旧金山。

And then we have SF.

而旧金山跟那些完全相反。

And SF is, like, the complete opposite of all of that.

你觉得这些文化会不会有融合或者互相交流？

How do you do you see these cultures sort of, like, merging or talking to each other?

你觉得它们会怎么演变？

Like, how do you see that how do you see them evolving?

嗯，我不是美国人。

Well, I'm not American.

所以我感觉自己就像亚历克西·德·托克维尔。

So I feel I feel very much like I'm Alexandre Tocqueville.

就像我在这里，在美国，亲眼看看这里的情况。

Like, I'm I'm I'm here and I'm I'm just in America and I'm I'm seeing how things are.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

这个词挺贴切的。

It's a good term.

所以我觉得这一切都特别有意思。

So I think it's all very fascinating to me.

我一边走一边学，了解不同文化部分。

I'm learning as I'm going what the different parts of the culture are.

我在这里认识了不少理性主义者，也在慢慢了解他们的文化。

You know, I've met quite a bit of, I mean, I'm quite a bit of rationalist here, and I'm kind of learning about that culture.

我出了名地被‘Less Wrong’封禁了。

I'm famously banned from less wrong.

为什么？

Why?