本集简介
双语字幕
仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
如果你想交付更多产品、更快地构建，你必须在公司内部打造一个像创始人那样的团队。
If you want to ship more and build faster, you have to create a founder like agency inside your company.
现在一个工程师就能完成两年前两个团队的工作量。
A single engineer can do what two teams of engineers could do two years ago.
突然间，市场机会的版图变得广阔得多，你可以用软件做更多事情。
Suddenly, the market opportunity landscape is just much broader, and you can do more with software.
你们是怎么做到交付这么多产品的？
How do you guys ship so much product?
很多公司都朝着这个方向倾斜，他们把这种新的智能体效率和能力视为优化成本结构的手段。
Companies have skewed in that direction, where they've seen this new agentic efficiency and power as a way to optimize cost structure.
我们的信念是——我有点开玩笑——但就是什么都自己建。
Our belief, I'm being a little cheeky, but build everything.
对。
Yes.
Opus 4.5 的寒武纪大爆发时刻。
The Opus four five Cambrian explosion moment.
在智能体商务领域，我们目前还没有达到那种水平。
We haven't had that in agentic commerce today.
我觉得有几个原因。
I think there's a few reasons for that.
一是我们比去年合并的代码多得多，这给所有系统都带来了压力。
One is we are merging so much more code than last year, and it is stressing every system.
所以我们创建了一个叫 Stripe Minions 的东西。
So we create something called Stripe Minions.
你不需要反复迭代，也不用进入规划模式。
You're not gonna iterate, not go into planning mode.
你只需要说，这就是我想要的。
You're just gonna say, this is what I want.
然后去做。
Go do it.
世界大概就是朝着这个方向发展的。
That's kind of where the world is going.
你们现在的交易量，我觉得已经超过两万亿了吧。
You guys are, I think, over 2,000,000,000,000 of volume now.
你觉得未来我们获取模型和令牌的方式会是什么样的？
What do you think is sort of the future state of how we all access models and tokens?
我非常看好
I'm very bullish on
AI正在让工程师的效率大幅提升。
AI is making engineers dramatically more productive.
Stripe的应对方式不是用更少的人做同样的事。
Stripe's response isn't to build the same things with fewer people.
而是做更多的事。
It's to build more.
本期节目，a16z普通合伙人David George与Stripe的Will Gaybrick坐下来，探讨AI如何改变这家全球最大科技公司之一的建设方式。
In this episode, a16z general partner David George sits down with Stripe's Will Gaybrick to unpack how AI is changing the way one of the world's largest technology companies builds.
他们讨论了Stripe的内部编码代理，这些代理最近一周内生成了7000个拉取请求，以及为什么团队正在变得更小更扁平，还有Stripe如何试图赋予工程师通常与创始人相关的自主权。
They discuss Stripe's internal coding agents, which recently generated 7,000 pull requests in a single week, why teams are becoming smaller and flatter, and how Stripe is trying to give engineers the kind of agency traditionally associated with founders.
然后他们探讨了所有这些新软件对商业本身意味着什么。
Then they look at what all this new software means for commerce itself.
从AI代理与其他代理的软件竞争，到微支付、稳定币，以及为什么威尔认为结账页面最终会完全消失。
From AI agents sparring software from other agents to micropayments, stable and why Will believes the checkout page will eventually disappear altogether.
我想先从Stripe的现状开始聊起。
I wanna start with just a state of Stripe.
好的。
Yes.
那么，今天的Stripe是什么样的？
So what is Stripe today?
我们最初投资的时候，它只是一个支付处理商。
And when we originally invested, it's a payment processor.
但现在，我觉得平均每家AI公司会使用11种不同的Stripe产品。
But now, I think the average AI company uses 11 different Yep.
Stripe产品。
Stripe products.
在Sessions大会上，我记得你有288个不同的产品发布。
And at Sessions, I believe you had 288 distinct Mhmm.
产品发布。
Product launches.
对。
Yeah.
所以，我
So I
想谈谈速度，但首先，Stripe今天到底是什么状态？
wanna talk about velocity also, but just to start with just what is the state of Stripe today?
在内部，我们认为Stripe的价值主张已经发生了转变，从一家带有附加功能的支付公司，变成了一个多产品平台，一切都围绕金融基础设施，通过减少摩擦、增加灵活性来帮助你成长，让你更灵活地调整商业模式，在更多国家运营，并且在所有涉及收入和现金的事情上更快地推进。
So internally, we think about Stripe as having inverted our value proposition from being a payments company with sort of add ons to now being this multi product platform where everything sort of focuses on financial infrastructure, helping you grow by reducing the friction and increasing the agency to be more agile with your business model, to operate in more countries, and just go faster when it comes to everything that touches revenue and cash.
所以，实际上，我们从支付开始，然后扩展到账单、订阅和发票，如果你是平台或市场的话，还有Connect，用于欺诈防护的Radar，现在Radar还能做更多事情，还有税务。
So just practically speaking, went from payments to then billing, subscriptions, and invoicing, Connect if you're a platform or marketplace, Radar for mitigating fraud, Radar now for doing many more things than that, tax.
我们其实没有具体统计，但大概有25到30个主打品牌产品，当然，下面还有成百上千的功能。
Think we don't actually count, but somewhere in and around 25, 30 products that are sort of headlining branded products, and then of course hundreds and thousands of features below that.
但再说回来，我们的核心思路就是减少摩擦、增加自主性。
But again, the framework we think about is really reducing frictions and increasing agency.
举个例子，去年我们第一次看到很多用户遭遇免费试用滥用的问题，这在AI出现之前基本不是问题，因为Stripe的大多数用户都是软件公司。
So a good example last year, we saw a lot of users for the first time experiencing free trial abuse, and this wasn't really an issue pre AI because most Stripe users are software companies.
对。
Yeah.
毛利率很高。
High gross margins.
没错。
Exactly.
所以那时候没有代币负担。
So token burden wasn't there.
对。
Yeah.
所以他们浪费一点算力，其实微不足道。
So they're wasting a little compute, It's negligible.
那是微不足道的。
It's de minimis.
但现在，软件有了成本结构。
But now, software has a cost structure.
所以实际上，我觉得Cursor是我们第一个遇到的用户，我们
And so actually, I think Cursor was the first user that we
我正要这么说。
I was gonna say.
那是我们的投资组合公司
It was our portfolio
第一次遇到这种情况的地方。
where we first experienced it.
而且我
And I
猜互联网用户确实很狡猾，但没错。
guess internet users can be crafty, but yes.
对。
Yes.
对。
Yes.
我记得大概有六分之一的免费试用用户是在滥用这个功能。
And I think it was something like one in six users of free trials were abusive.
所以你就等于是在给这些用户白扔钱，他们就是不停地注册新账号、再注册新账号，甚至可能还在做模型蒸馏之类的事情。
And so you're just throwing money at these users who are just signing up for another account, another account, another account, maybe even doing model distillation and things like that.
所以我们和他们一起闭关，在一个周末内搭建了一个流程，利用我们的基础模型，扫描整个Stripe网络，使用我们的嵌入，然后在上面加了一个推理层，这样你就可以说，我们认为这是滥用免费试用的用户，因为……并指出那些信号。
And so we of got in the bunker with them and just stood up in a weekend a pipeline where we were able to use our foundation model, look across the entire Stripe network, use our embeddings, and then after that put a reasoning layer on top of so you could sort of say, We think this is a free trial abuser because and point to those signals.
我觉得现在，11 labs最近告诉我们，他们每天用Stripe阻止2000个滥用免费试用的用户。哇。
And I think it's today, I think it's 11 labs recently told us that they're blocking 2,000 free trial abusers per day using Stripe Wow.
太厉害了。
Incredible.
所以你想一下，如果你不阻止这些滥用免费试用的用户，你会烧掉多少钱，或者说，你会损失多少收入。
So you just think about how much money you'd be burning if you were well, how much money you wouldn't how much revenue you wouldn't be creating if you weren't getting these two trials.
没错。
Exactly.
他们确实有，是的。
They're have Yeah.
误报和那个……
False positives and the
对，误报。
false yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
是的。
Yep.
没错。
Exactly.
然后在提升自主性方面，走向全球仍然非常困难。
And then on the increasing agency side, it's still just so hard to go global.
要出去就得在那么多地方注册、计算、缴税。
Have go out having to register, calculate, remit taxes in so many geographies.
而这一批新兴的AI公司、数字商品公司，他们就是想快速走向全球。
And this new crop of AI companies, the digital goods companies, and they wanna just go global very fast.
所以我觉得ARIFs就是个很好的例子。
And so I guess ARIFs is a good example.
他们用的是Stripe Managed Payments这个产品，在本地市场比如美国，假设他们在欧洲有实体，他们就是销售记录方。
They're using this product Stripe Managed Payments, where in their home markets, The US, let's say they have an entity in Europe, they are the seller of record.
但在那些长尾市场，比如哈萨克斯坦和整个亚太地区，他们没有实体，Stripe就作为实际的商户记录方。
But in long tail markets, you know, the Kazakhsans and all over APAC where they haven't sort of entities, Stripe stands in as the actual merchant of record.
我们负责税务法规、税款汇缴等等这些。
We handle tax regulation, tax remittance, and everything like that.
这样一来，他们就能合规地覆盖100多个地区。
And so this just lets them cover 100 plus geographies and compliantly.
对。
Yeah.
太棒了。
That's amazing.
是的。
Yeah.
再回到欺诈那个例子，如果你能识别出滥用者，这个业务其实有网络效应，对吧？
And if you go back to the fraud example, if you identify abusive actors, there's actually a network effect in that business, right?
这非常强大。
Which is super powerful.
当然，作为许多受益于此的公司的投资者，我们很感激。
And obviously, we appreciate it as investors in in many of the companies who benefited from Yeah.
看看现在的产品线，确实如此。
If you look at the product set today Yeah.
显然，Stripe的起源是服务初创公司。
Obviously, the origin of Stripe was startups.
所以你可以很容易地搭建支付系统，在网上卖东西。
So you can very easily stand up payments, you know, sell stuff online.
而且众所周知，Stripe增长和商业模式的一个妙处在于，你们在DoorDash和Instacart还很小的时候就抓住了他们。
And then famously, part of the beauty of Stripe's growth and business model is that you captured companies like DoorDash and Instacart when they were NYC.
是的。
Yes.
然后你们一路陪着他们成长。
And then you grew with them along the way.
那你们现在怎么考虑产品策略，是服务初创公司还是服务大企业呢？
How do you think about the product strategy as it relates to serving startups versus serving large enterprises now?
我觉得吧，
So I think
其实是Clerk的Colin最近在X上很好地总结了我们的策略，他说，Stripe的策略是毫不掩饰的。
it was actually Colin at Clerk who summarized our strategy nicely on on X recently, where he said, Stripe strategy is unabashed.
我大概转述一下他的话，就是赢得所有初创公司，然后再赢他们一次。
I'm paraphrasing his words, but it's win all the startups and then win them again.
对。
Yes.
而且我觉得在某种程度上，这是个很好的商业模式，因为初创公司非常有野心，它们通常会成长为未来的大公司，它们就像是下一个机会的探路者。
And I think to some extent that's just a good business model because startups are very ambitious, they typically grow into the biggest companies of tomorrow, They're sort of canaries for what the next opportunity is.
所以，赢得所有初创公司并再次赢得他们的另一个微妙原因是，他们实际上是我们所有客户中标准最高的。
So another subtle reason to win all the startups and win them again is they actually have the highest standards of all of our customers.
我最近看了Stripe报告系统的客户满意度。
I looked recently at the CSAT for Stripe's reporting.
对于我们的超大型企业用户来说，你们的报告系统很棒。
And for our very, very large enterprise users, your reporting is great.
我们很喜欢你们提供的数据。
We love the data you give us.
这比我们从其他任何地方得到的都要好得多。
It's way better than anything we get from any of our other
因为他们习惯了现有的那些老牌公司。
because they're accustomed to the incumbents.
没错。
Exactly.
然后你再看看初创公司，你们的报告简直是一团糟。
And then you look at it for startups, your reporting is garbage.
你们必须得修好这个问题。
You have got to fix this.
这让我快疯了。
This is driving me crazy.
所以一直有一种感觉，就是初创公司通过最快、最挑剔，让我们变得更好。
And so there's this persistent sense that startups just make us better by being the fastest, by being the most demanding, and so on.
但当然，一旦我们开始和初创公司合作，我们就想一直合作下去。
But of course, once we start working with startups, we want to work with them forever.
所以这推动我们往高端市场走，逼着我们变得出奇地优秀。
And so this pulls us upmarket and forces us to become as sort of surprisingly great.
这就是我们努力对企业和初创公司都保持的标准。
That's the standard we try to hold ourselves to for enterprises as for start ups.
现在我们合作的初创公司，我不知道具体比例是多少，但还没到一半，不过我们正在接近。
And now we're working with I don't know what the exact percentage is today, but it's not quite half, but we're getting there.
4500家公司。
4,500 companies.
我们当然和亚马逊、微软这样的公司合作，在企业级市场，销售周期不同，售后的激活流程也不同，签完合同之后需要做的事情多得多，而初创公司基本上很快就能上线。
We work, of course, with the Amazons of the world, Microsofts, and at the enterprise, it's sort of a different sales cycle, it's a different post sale activation motion, it's a lot more required after you've already signed the contract, whereas startups sort of go live like that.
但本质上是一样的。
But fundamentally, it's the same thing.
你只需要贴近用户，倾听他们的需求，证明你在他们关心的指标上确实更好，所以现阶段两者都做。
You just stay close to the user, you hear their needs, you show that you're sort of provably better when it comes to the metrics they care about, and and, yeah, so it's really both at this stage.
对。
Yeah.
赢得他们，然后再赢一次。
Win them and then win them again.
我喜欢这个说法。
I love that.
是的。
Yeah.
这是一个
That's a
很好的，这是一个很好的互动。
great that's a great dynamic.
我想换个话题。
I wanna shift gears.
我记得你们公开说过，上半年的注册量增长了50%，对吧？
So I think you guys publicly said that first half sign ups grew 50% Yep.
同比增长。
Year over year.
对。
Yep.
而且，2026届中位数的收入比2025届同期高出50%。
And that the median 26 cohort is generating 50% more revenue than the comparable 25 cohort.
然后，2025届的收入比2024届同期高出70%。那么，是什么发生了变化？
So, and then I think the 25 cohort was generating 70% more revenue than the comparable So, '24 what has changed?
对。
Yeah.
嗯，我觉得
Well, I
有两方面原因。
think two things.
第一是给新业务创造带来了巨大的机会。
One is giving rise to so much opportunity for new business creation.
以前做不到的事情，现在都能做了。
There's just things you couldn't do before that you can do now.
四年前你没法做出Suno这样的产品，或者可能只能做出一个差得多的版本。四年前你也做不出Higgs field这样的东西。
You couldn't build a Suno four years ago, or you could maybe build a much worse Suno four You years couldn't build a Higgs field four years ago.
现在就是有了新的可能性。
There's just new things that you can do.
所以突然之间，市场机会的版图变得广阔得多，而且用软件能做的事情也更多了。
And so suddenly the market opportunity landscape is just much broader, and you can do more with software.
另一方面，做更多软件的成本已经大幅下降，因为现在你只需要很少的工程师就能构建你想要的东西，这都多亏了智能体编程。
On the other side, the sort of cost of doing more software has decreased a lot because you just need many fewer engineers to build the things that you want to build because of, you know, agentic coding.
所以我们正看到新软件创建的爆发式增长。
And so we're just seeing this explosion in new software creation.
你看Stripe计费的年同比增长率，实际上比Stripe整体使用量的增长率要高很多，因为它主要偏向于那些创建软件公司的人。
When you look at the year on year increase in usage of Stripe billing, it's actually a lot higher than usage of Stripe overall because it disproportionately skews towards people creating software companies.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
哦，那太棒了。
Oh, that's fantastic.
听到这个真是太好了。
That's awesome to hear.
我想现在聊聊我们之前提到的一些产品。
I wanna shift now to some of the products that we talked about.
对。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
所以你们有这么多新产品来满足线上公司的各种需求。
So you have this proliferation of new products to serve all the needs of companies online.
高层次的问题是，你们是怎么做到的？
The high level question is, like, how do you do that?
你们是怎么推出这么多产品的？
Like, how do you guys ship so much product?
对。
Yeah.
速度一直是我们的优先事项之一。
Speed has always been near the top.
也许对用户的极致关注才是最重要的。
Maybe user relentless focus on user is probably the top.
对。
Yeah.
动力来源。
Power source.
不。
No.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
但速度确实很重要。
But speed is right up there.
而且这很有意思。
And it's interesting.
我经常思考机构的进步，我们研究那些在我们之前以及现在与我们并肩的伟大公司。
I think a lot about institutional progress, and we study the great companies that have come before us and now are beside us.
当然，亚马逊这些公司还在。
The Amazons are still around, of course.
但你看Stripe，你会发现我们的目标设定方式有点像谷歌的OKR，算是那种适应性的版本。
But you look at Stripe and you'd say, okay, well, we have sort of an adaptive version of how we set goals that's quite similar to Google's OKRs.
对。
Yeah.
你知道，我们的销售团队组织方式和微软挺像的。
You know, our sales team is organized pretty similarly to Microsoft's.
我们也有类似苹果的DRI文化，而且我们对产品质量的标准，还有产品评审的方式，都跟他们差不多。
You know, we have a DRI culture similar to Apple's, and we, you know, have a product quality standard, how we do our product reviews is similar to theirs.
其实，我日常管理公司用的很多机制，基本上都是从艾伦·穆拉利那里学来的，他以前是福特和波音航空的CEO。
You know, a lot of the day to day mechanisms that I use to sort of run the business, I've basically stolen from Alan Mulally, the former CEO of of Ford and Boeing Aviation.
所以我们研究这些公司，想把他们的优点都融入到Stripe里，我们想的就是怎么打造一个能长久存在的机构，比我们任何一个人都活得久，因为它是一个很好的创业平台。
And so we study these companies and we try to bring it all into Stripe, and we think about just how do we create an enduring institution that can sort of outlast any of us because it's, you know, a great container for entrepreneurship.
那你今天应该已经收到了。
And then you should've reached today.
而且现在根本没有可以模仿的对象。
And there's just no one to copy.
比如说，当一个工程师就能完成两年前两个团队才能做的事，你该怎么办？
Like, what do you do when a single engineer can do what two teams of engineers could do two years ago?
现在的核心理念是，Stripe需要比以往任何时候都更成为内部创始人的平台。
And sort of the theory of mind right now is that Stripe needs to become, more than it ever has been before, a platform for founders internally.
而且对外一直都有创始人的平台。
And there's always been a platform for founders externally.
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yeah.
当然。
Of course.
客户。
The customers.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
而且创始人一直做得非常好。你知道，实际上，我们收购了一家公司，叫Metronome。
And founders have always done incredibly well at You know, we actually, it was an indecent company, Metronome.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Of course.
我们去年收购了Metronome，CEO斯科特·伍迪在Stripe干得非常出色。
We acquired Metronome last year, and Scott Woody, the CEO, is thriving at Stripe.
他现在负责
He's leading
就是这样。
That's it.
对。
Yeah.
现在他基本上负责Metronome和计费的所有事务。
Leading all of, you know, Metronome and billing at this point.
过去几年我们收购了Privy，一家钱包基础设施公司，还有Bridge。现在Henry主要带领大部分加密业务，Zach当然负责OpenUSD和Bridge。
We acquired Privy, which is a wallets infrastructure company, and Bridge over the last couple of years, and Henry is now leading most of crypto, Zach is leading OpenUSD and Bridge, of course.
来自Privy的Asta负责加密领域的工程。
Asta from from Pripy is leading up engineering for crypto.
来自Lemon Squeezy的JR Far现在负责Stripe Treasury。
JR Far from Lemon Squeezy is leading Stripe Treasury at this point.
所以说创始人一直都是在Stripe干得很出色。
And so just founders have always done very well at Stripe.
不过现在出现了
But now you have
一个非常有意思的时刻，资深工程师变得特别强大。
this very interesting moment where senior engineers are just so powerful.
是的。
Yes.
所以你会说，嗯，未来我们的组织可以有几种不同的架构方式。
And so you say, well, there's a few different ways our org could be shaped going forward.
可能我们就是工程师数量大幅减少，也许这就是世界未来的样子。
It could be that we just have many fewer engineers, and maybe that's what what the world would look like.
我觉得很多公司都偏向这个方向，他们把这种新的智能体效率和能力看作是优化成本结构的一种方式。
And think a lot of companies have skewed in that direction where they've seen this new, you know, agentic efficiency and power as a way to optimize cost structure.
你看到了一些裁员。
You saw some layoffs.
你看到公司缩减运营开支。
You saw, you know, companies shrinking OpEx.
而我们的信念是，这只是一个机会，我有点开玩笑，但就是去构建一切。
And our belief is that it's just an opportunity to I'm being a little cheeky, but to build everything.
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yeah.
而优化成本结构的最佳方式，其实是增长更多。
And the best way to optimize your cost structure is to grow more.
是的。
Yes.
没错。
Exactly.
我们有很多年积累下来的用户需求一直没满足，所以我们就想更快地把它们都处理完。
We have reams of user asks going back many years that are unmet, and so we just wanna get through them all faster.
所以，虽然那些资深工程师的生产力越来越高，但如果你想交付更多、建得更快，你就得在公司内部营造一种创始人般的自主性。
And so while we have more and more productivity from those senior engineers, if you want to ship more and build faster, you have to create a founder like agency inside your company.
而且
And
所以，目前真正拖慢我们进度的，其实是一些后台方面的事情。
so the main things that are holding back our progress today are actually sort of back office things.
你知道吗，我们今年合并的代码比去年多得多，这给每个系统都带来了压力。
You know, we are merging so much more code than last year, and it is stressing every system.
压力在于我们怎么把东西弄进卖家系统里？
It is stressing how do we get things into our seller systems?
怎么把东西放到定价页面上？
How do we get things onto our pricing page?
当我们来不及培训卖家的时候，怎么真正把产品推向市场？
How do we actually bring things to market when we can't train sellers on them fast enough?
所以在这个阶段，我们真的在努力优化每一个环节，我们把它看作Stripe的关键路径，从产品开发背后的想法、用户需求，一直到产品真正到用户手里。
And so we are really trying at this stage to optimize every single phase of we think of it as sort of the critical path in Stripe from the ideas behind product development the user asks all the way to products being in users' hands.
所以，回到你问的怎么才能更快，其实就两件事。
And so, you know, to your question of how do you go faster, it's really two things.
第一，怎么让Stripe的每个人都有那种主人翁意识。
It's one, just how do you create that agency for everyone at Stripe?
怎么让Stripe的每个人都能像创始人一样，像艺术家一样，有创造力，而不是被那些集中的、繁琐的流程拖住。
How do you let everyone at Stripe be an auteur, like a founder, you know, a creative, and not have them held back by the morass of, you know, centralized Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
另一方面，就是你和你的开发运维团队，怎么把工具做得越来越好。
And on the other side then, it's how do you, you know, with your dev prod team, just make the tools better and better and better.
对。
Yeah.
我们创建了一个叫 Stripe Minions 的东西，我们也在博客上稍微提到过。
We created something called Stripe Minions, which we've blogged about a little bit.
当然，我们有很多开发者工具来帮助用户和代理进行迭代。
And, you know, of course, we've got tons of developer tooling to help users iterate with agents.
但 Minions，我们认为，我们内部最重要的指标之一就是有多少 PR 以及我们 PR 中有多少比例是由 Minions 创建的。
But Minions, we think of as, you know, the most like, of our most important metrics internally is how many PRs and what percentage of our PRs are created by minions.
原因在于 Minions 是一次性的。
And the reason for that is that minions are one shot.
对。
Yeah.
所以你给它一个提示，它就会去构建，然后它会经过CICD、所有测试，然后你再去审查。
So you you give it a prompt and, it's going to build it, and then it's going to go through CICD, all testing, and then you're gonna review it.
所以你不需要反复迭代，不需要进入规划模式，你只需要说，这就是我想要的，去做吧。
So you're not gonna iterate, you're not going to planning mode, you're just gonna say, this is what I want, go do it.
所以我们觉得，这大概就是未来的趋势。
And so we think, you know, that's kind of where the world is going.
你知道，就是那种一次搞定，或者说是升级版的循环，让代理变得超级强大。
You know, it's the one shot or the glorified Ralph loop where you're just letting the agent be super, super powerful.
我们在一月或二月写了关于minions的博客，那时候它们每周能处理1200个PR。
And so we blogged about minions, I think, in January, February, and they were doing 1,200, you know, PRs per week.
上周，我记得有7000个PR，哇。
And last week, I think 7,000 PRs came Wow.
来自，对。
From Yeah.
而且那一周我们大约30%的PR都来自minions。
And and about 30% of our PRs in that week came from minions.
所以，你知道，那种开发者工具和内部流程只要不碍事，把工具做得特别好，我们就能跑得飞快。
So, you know, that sort of developer tooling and then the internal processes just get out of the way and make the tools amazing, and that's how we're gonna go fast.
太厉害了。
That's amazing.
说到让资深工程师变得比以往更强大，你们在公司内部的组织方式有没有什么大变动？
In terms of empowering senior engineers who are now more powerful than ever, have you made any dramatic changes to how you organize the company internally?
显然，那个 minions 的例子太惊人了，我猜一年内那 30% 会涨到很高的比例吧。
So, obviously, the the minions example is incredible, and I assume the 30% is gonna go to a very high percentage within a year or something.
但我们从其他公司听到的一些做法是，把最厉害的工程师放到业务部门，或者让他们更贴近客户。
But some of the things that we've heard from other companies is taking your most powerful engineers, putting them into business units, or closer to the customers.
对。
Yes.
但那样做会带来一些协调上的问题。
But then you have sort of coordination problems that come from that.
所以，你们是怎么处理这种赋能的？
So, like, how have you guys approached that empowerment?
对。
Yeah.
所以工程师一直是Stripe最重要的产品领导者之一。
So engineers have always been, you know, some of the most important product leaders at Stripe.
你知道，我们为工程师和技术用户打造产品。
Know, we build for engineers, for technical users.
当然，现在我们也为很多其他角色打造产品，但工程师一直是Stripe的核心用户群体。
Of course, build for many personas at this point, but engineers have always been sort of the hero, you know, ICP for Stripe.
正因为如此，工程师一直身兼数职，既是工程师，又是产品经理，还是设计师。
And so because of that, engineers have always been some combination of engineer, PM, designer.
没错。
Yep.
所以我觉得我们只是更加深入地贯彻这一点。
And so I think we're just leaning even more into that.
我们正在构建工具和平台，让工程师能够自己完成很多前端开发和前端设计。
You know, we're building tools and platforms so that engineers can do a lot of the front end development themselves and front end design themselves.
对你问题最简单的回答可能就是更扁平化。
Probably just the shortest answer to your question is flatter.
对。
Yeah.
更扁平化。
Flatter.
团队更小，我猜是更小的团队。
Smaller I assume smaller teams.
更小的团队，更扁平化。
Smaller teams, flatter.
你知道，以前有很多层级在协调工作，而且在大多数情况下，这非常有价值，对吧。
You had, you know, a lot of layers that were sort of orchestrating work and very valuably so in most Right.
大多数时候。
The time.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
但现在已经不需要那些层级了。
But you just don't need that anymore.
我最近跟公司一位资深工程师聊过，就是那个开发 Stripe Projects 的人，因为 Stripe Projects 基本上就是一个产品经理和一个非常资深的工程师在几周内做出来的，还有另外几个工程师也参与进来了。
I was talking to one of our most senior engineers recently, in fact, the guy who built Stripe Projects, because Stripe Projects was basically a PM and one of a very senior engineer in a few weeks, and and a couple of other engineers who who jumped in as well.
所以我想给他们应有的认可，但大部分代码提交都来自一个人，就是这位叫亚历山大的人。
So I wanna give them due credit, but most of the PRs came from one guy, this guy Alexander.
他现在就对着一个屏幕。
Now he's just got a screen.
他同时指挥着16个智能体，效率高多了。
He's orchestrating 16 agents, and he's going a whole lot faster.
对。
Yeah.
太厉害了。
That's amazing.
对。
Yeah.
像这样的项目，你们有标准的团队规模吗？
Do you have a standard team size for projects like this?
是不是就像我们之前聊的，一个人不行，因为没有社交互动，所以可能行不通。
Is it like we've gone around, it's like, okay, one, you know, one, there's no social dynamic, and so maybe that doesn't work.
然后，四个人大概是上限，中间的各种规模我们都听说过。
And, you know, four is probably the max size, and we've heard everything in between.
你有什么看法吗？
Do have a view on it?
其实没有。
Not really.
我的意思是，在扁平化的组织里，你希望团队更宽，对吧，因为这样管理层级更少。
I mean, we still have I mean, you kind of want in a flatter org, you both want wider teams, right, because that means fewer layers of management.
但另一方面，你也觉得可以少用一些人，因为现在每个人都被赋予了更多的权力。
But then, you know, you also sort of believe you can have fewer people because each individual is more empowered these days.
所以我觉得今天这些因素在一定程度上是相互抵消的。
So I think those forces are offsetting to some extent today.
实际上，如果一个经理带八个人的团队，他们的产出可能是原来的三倍。
And in fact, more like if you have a line managed team of eight people, they're just doing three x more.
对。
Yeah.
正是。
Exactly.
所以经理和员工的比例可能没变，但团队做的事情从一件变成了三件。
So you might have the same manager to the manager to IC ratio, but the team is doing three things rather than one.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
很有道理。
That makes total sense.
所以，你和我之前聊过的一个话题，你也提到了，但我想再展开一点，就是你可以用AI做所有这些新事情的想法。
So one of the things that you and I have talked about is, and you touched on it, but I I'd like to expand on a little more, is this idea that you can do all these new things with AI.
那么，你把精力放在哪里呢？
And so where do you direct the efforts?
对。
Yes.
所以你们很明显把精力放在了面向客户的那些事情上。
And so you you guys have very clearly directed the efforts toward the front facing stuff.
也就是为客户开发新产品。
So building new products for customers.
而市场上讨论的很多都是后端的事情。
And lots of what is discussed in the market is back end facing stuff.
比如优化你的呼叫结构，就像你说的，所有东西都是markdown文件，然后我们把组织里每个人做的事情都梳理出来，然后拼命优化。
So optimizing your call structure, as you said, everything is a markdown file, and, you know, let's let's map out everything that everyone does in the organization and optimize it to death.
说说你的理念吧，为什么你选择前者而不是后者。
Talk about your philosophy for why you want to go for the former and not the latter.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得早期有一种说法，现在也还在流传。
So I think there was an an early narrative, it still, you know, lingers for sure.
这种说法也有一定道理，就是说我们现在有了智能体，应该更高效，应该能用更少的资源做更多的事。
And there's some truth to it of just we have agents now, we should be more efficient, we should be able to do more with less.
但在这方面，我主要想的其实是让我们的员工更有生产力。
And the main thing I actually think about on this front is making our people more productive.
我们内部有个工具叫Kai，是我们的知识AI工具。
We have a tool internally called Kai, which is our knowledge AI tool.
这个工具是我们大概六个月前做的，就两个人做的。
And we built it, I don't know, maybe six months ago, two people built it.
现在83%的周活跃用户，不对，抱歉。
Now 83% daily actives or sorry.
83%的周活跃用户，大概60%的日活跃用户，在Stripe内部。
83% weekly actives, about 60% daily actives at Stripe.
销售人员的生产力提升了20%。
Seller productivity has increased by 20%.
但我们并不是在说，哇。
But we're not saying, wow.
我们需要更少的销售人员。
We need fewer sellers.
我们是在说，我们需要更多的销售人员。
We're saying, so we need a lot more sellers.
我们销售人员的回报周期变得更好了。
The idea of payback of our sellers just got way better.
我们应该有更多的销售人员。
We should have way more of them.
没错。
Exactly.
另一方面，运营团队也感觉效率高了很多。
And then on the flip side, operational teams are just feeling much more productive.
他们的日常生活更愉快了。
Their day to day life is more enjoyable.
他们在用更好的工具。
They're using better tools.
他们需要做的体力活更少了。
They're having to do less manual work.
所以在科技圈里，这几乎成了老生常谈，这个悖论就是，效率越高，反而需要更多人手。
And so it's almost trite in tech circles now, the paradox, as such, becomes more productive.
你不想减少。
You don't want less.
你想增加。
You want more.
对，就是这样。
Yeah, exactly.
对我们来说，工程师的情况尤其如此。
And it is very much the case for us when it comes to engineers.
我们的工程师效率高得惊人。
Our engineers are just magnificently more productive.
所以我之前提到过，就是把Stripe打造成一个面向创始人的平台，一个内部的创始人平台。
And so I mentioned earlier just making Stripe a platform for founders, like internal platform for founders.
你知道，往后看，你可能会说，既然工程师效率这么高，那世界上的工程师就会越来越少。
You know, going forward you could say, well, because engineers are so productive, there'll just be fewer engineers in the world.
但我真的不这么认为，而且我们看到的根本不是这样。
And I just really don't believe that, and that's not what we're seeing at all.
你知道，你会看到更多的软件被创造出来。
You know, you see that much more software creation.
我们，你知道，九个月前有一种说法，说SaaS平台是垂直平台，它们都会遇到困难。
We you know, there was a narrative nine months ago about SaaS platforms and how they were vertical platforms, how they were all gonna struggle.
我们新的SaaS平台群体在2026年比2025年大了103%。
Our new SaaS platform cohort is 103% larger than in 2026 than it was in 2025.
所以人们只是说，有很多领域都需要SaaS平台。
So people are just saying, well, there are so many spaces that need a SaaS platform.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
我建得越来越快，越来越快。
I'm building it faster and faster and faster.
所以我觉得世界上的软件工程师会更多。
And so I think there will be more software engineers in the world.
我们做现有的事情需要的人会更少。
We will need fewer of them to do the things we're already doing.
所以Stripe对刚毕业的和早期职业的工程师来说，更像一个孵化器——进来，找一个高自主权的项目来帮助我们的用户，我们给你让路，铺好路，让你更容易加速，我们应该能建得越来越多，不只是随便什么东西，而是能和我们现在做的事情产生复合效应的相邻领域。
And so Stripe then becomes, for new grads and early career engineers, more of an incubator of come in, figure out a high agency project that can help our users, let's get out of your way, let's create the paved paths, let's make it easy for you to go faster, and we should be able to just build more and more and more and not just random things, but adjacencies that sort of compound what we're doing today.
比如支出管理跟资金库是相邻的，这本来可能排在两年后的路线图里。
So spend management is adjacent to treasury, and that might have been roadmapped for two years from now.
但现在一个工程师就把它当项目接了过去，自己动手建。
Instead, one engineer has picked it up as a project and they're just building it themselves.
其实第一个提交是我写的，但现在他们接手了。
Actually, I wrote the first commit for it, but they're now running with it.
现在它落在更有能力的人手里了。
It's in more capable hands now.
没错，就是交给更有能力的人。
Exactly, so more capable hands.
所以，是的，我们认为最大的机会，也是我们重点投入的方向，是用现有的资源做更多事情，并且随着时间推移，用更多的资源做更多事。
So, yeah, we believe the big opportunity and the one that we're leaning into is doing more with what we have, and over time, doing more with more.
对。
Yeah.
我完全同意这一点。
I totally agree with that.
对，我最近写了一篇文章，说创始人本身就是一种资产类别。
And, yeah, I wrote a piece recently about founders being the asset class.
就像我们后期风投市场的代表一样，你们团队应该处于这个领域的前沿。
Like, the the representation of our market of late stage venture, which you guys are probably at the forefront of.
之所以说创始人是资产类别，是因为正是他们推动公司去开拓下一个产品领域。
Founders are the asset class because founders are gonna be the ones who enable the companies to find the next product areas.
没错。
Yes.
所以，现在你得权衡一下，是开发新产品来增加收入，还是削减成本。
And so this idea that you have to make trade offs today around, do we try and build new products for revenue or cut costs?
对。
Yep.
像Stripe这样由你们管理的公司，可能总会有下一个机会去创造新的收入来源，找到能大受欢迎的新客户产品，这种机会永远不会消失。
Think for companies like Stripe that are run by you guys, there's probably always gonna be that next opportunity to create additional revenue opportunities, you know, find the new customer products that are a big hit, and that is never gonna go away.
你总是有机会去构建更多的东西。
You're always gonna have the chance to build more.
是的。
Yes.
完全同意。
Absolutely.
我确实认为现在是公司领导层制造一些资源压力的好时机，因为这种压力会促使大家更高效、更广泛地使用新工具。
I do think it's a good moment for company leaders to create some resourcing back pressure, because that back pressure drives more efficient and more expansive use of new tools.
但我也觉得，未来几年，我们的预算流程会和过去差不多，就是我们已经用现有资源做了很多，如果继续扩大资源，我们还能做得更多。
But I also imagine that in the years ahead, we'll have a budgeting process that looks not that dissimilar from what it's been in the past of we're doing so much with what we have, we can do even more if we continue to expand resourcing.
但在这个时刻，我觉得是个好时机，说，好吧，我们真的要用现有的资源做很多事情，因为你已经能看到现有资源带来的生产力提升。
But in this moment, I think it is a good time to say, well, let's really do a lot with what we have today because you still see increases in productivity from what you already have.
除此之外，从用户的角度来看，他们对我们还有更多的期待。
Beyond that, from a user's first standpoint, just there's so much more they want from us.
我们听到很多用户反馈，对于Stripe Tax，他们希望有全球申报功能。
We've heard from a lot of users that for Stripe Tax, they want global filing.
我们花了很长时间才实现Stripe Tax的美国申报，也就是说，美国每个州的申报都会自动帮你完成。
And it took us a long time to get to US filing on Stripe Tax, meaning that every state in The US will just automatically file for you.
这很难，是个棘手的问题，因为你面对的是很多不同的司法管辖区，它们接受申报的方式各不相同，所以我们花了很长时间才做到。
And it's hard, it's a hard problem because you are dealing with so many different jurisdictions that accept filing in different ways, and so it took us a long time to get there.
全球申报是下一个需求。
Global filing was the next ask.
你知道，我们就是不想在任何市场操心这件事。
You know, we just don't wanna have to think about this in any market.
而我们只用了实现美国申报大约三分之一的时间就完成了全球申报。
And we built that in about a third of the time that it took us to get to US filing.
哇。
Wow.
而且复杂度高得多。
With much greater complexity.
没错。
Exactly.
复杂度高得多。
Much greater complexity.
所以你看，像这样的需求和机会真是无穷无尽。
And so it's just like, you know, an infinite list of of asks and opportunities like that.
所以如果你一心一意关注用户，你就会把精力放在那上面。
And so if you're just relentlessly focused on users, you're going to focus on on that.
我们最近推出了一个叫Stripe Treasury的产品，现在在金融科技领域是个有趣的时刻，因为我觉得银行业务正在被拆解。
We launched recently a product called Stripe Treasury, and it's an interesting moment in sort of fintech right now because I think there is sort of an unbundling of what banking means.
Stripe不是银行，也不打算成为银行，但确实想提供你的银行门户，帮你处理全球资金流动。
And Stripe is not a bank, does not aspire to be a bank, but does aspire to provide your banking portal and help you with global money movement.
这个功能我们被要求了很长时间。
This is something that we've been asked for for a very long time.
所以我们推出了Stripe Treasury，让用户可以持有数十种货币的资金，覆盖多个国家，并且能够实现银行门户应该有的功能。
And so we built Stripe Treasury to allow our users to hold funds in dozens of currencies, you know, across many countries, and, you know, just build what the banking portal should be able to do.
所以我们一直是专注于尽快把这个体验带给用户。
And so, you know, we we've, you know, focused on bringing, you know, this experience to users extremely quickly.
而且我们发现，在每一个案例中，我们两年前认为最好的时间表现在都在被一次又一次地压缩。
And what we're finding in every case is that the timelines that we thought were the best doable two years ago are now being compressed again and again and again.
这是因为我们从智能化工程的角度找到的方向，有点像是注塑成型的逻辑。
And it's because the direction that we're finding from an agentic engineering standpoint is of akin to injection molding.
就是说，这有点简化了。
You know, it's it's it's a bit reductionist.
对。
Yeah.
但你看消费品、玩具这类行业的增长，很多都是战后突然爆发起来的。
But when you look at sort of the growth in consumer packaged goods and toys and things like that, a lot of it just exploded postwar.
对。
Yeah.
这是因为我们在四十年代非常擅长熔化塑料。
And it was because we got really good in the forties at melting plastic.
你知道，就是那种注塑螺杆，能很均匀地熔化塑料，然后把它注入金属模具里。
You know, it's the injected injection molding screw that sort of, you know, melts plastic very evenly and, you know, sort of injects it into, you know, a a metal casting.
我们现在做代码生产差不多也是这个方式。
And that's sort of how we're doing code production at this point.
我们就是在创建模具和模板。
You know, we're creating the molds and the templates.
你提到了markdown文件。
You mentioned markdown files.
比如，那些文件非常重要，你需要在每个代码仓库里都放上代理文件。
Like, those are extremely you need your agents files in every repo.
只要你创建了这些模式，并且理解了如何与金融机构集成的模式，你就可以把大量工作交给代理，它们就能直接完成。
And as long as you create those patterns and you sort of understand the pattern of how you integrate with financial institutions, you can hand off so much of the work to agents and they just get it done.
你最后花的时间其实都在后端的代码审查上。
And all of the time you end up spending is sort of on the back end at code review.
但即便如此，智能体做代码审查也比以前人类做得更好。
But even then, agents are doing code review even better than humans did before.
对。
Yeah.
所以，还是那句话，压缩时间线，感觉比优化成本结构机会大得多。
So just, again, compressing timelines, it just feels like a much bigger opportunity than optimizing cost structure.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得你可能是第一个把现代基于AI的软件工程比作注塑成型的人。
I think you may be the first person to compare, modern AI based software engineering to injection molding.
这真是太棒了。
So this is this is great.
我们正在开拓新的领域。
We're we're we're covering new ground.
其实我以前真的去过注塑工厂。
And I've actually been to an injection molding plant before.
那真是太厉害了。
That's pretty amazing.
确实很厉害。
It's pretty amazing.
对。
Yeah.
尤其是想到这项技术大概是七十年前发明的。
Especially when you think about the fact that it was probably seventy years ago that it was created.
因为发明人是詹姆斯·沃森·亨利，我记得是
Because it's James Watson Henry, I think was the
那个人。
guy.
那是
That's
对。
right.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我去过宾夕法尼亚。
I've been in Pennsylvania.
对。
Yeah.
这就对了。
There you go.
对。
Yeah.
挺好的。
It's it's great.
你知道，作为Stripe的投资者，而且是大的投资者，我觉得你刚才描述的另一个角度是，优化成本的机会是有限的。
You know, if you, you know, as an investor in Stripe, and a large large investor in Stripe, another way that I think about what you just described is the opportunity to optimize cost is finite.
对吧？
Right?
你说了长期和短期。
You said long versus short.
对。
Yeah.
我真的很喜欢。
I really like.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
优化成本结构就是在做空自己未来的潜力，而加快速度、多做一些事情就是在做多自己未来的潜力。
It's a optimizing cost structure is going short, sort of your own future potential, and just building faster, building more is going long, you know, your future potential.
这就像资本配置中的返还现金一样。
It's like the capital allocation equivalent of, like, returning cash Yes.
而不是再投资现金。
As opposed to reinvesting cash.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我明白了。
I I got it.
好的。
Okay.
我想换个新话题，这个话题你们走在前沿，而且讨论很多，但往往比较模糊。
I wanna shift over to a new topic, which you guys are on the cutting edge of, and which gets a lot of play, but almost in, like, a nebulous sense.
所以我想跟你们深入聊聊，就是智能体在互联网上参与商业活动这件事。
So I'd I'd like to go a little bit deeper on it with you, which is sort of agents engaging in commerce on the internet.
嗯。
Mhmm.
那我们现在处于什么阶段？
So what is the state of where we are today?
瓶颈在哪里？
What are the bottlenecks?
对。
Yes.
你们怎么看未来可能实现的框架？
And how do you sort of view a framework for how that could be done in the future?
对。
Yeah.
所以我们之前聊过OPUS四和五的寒武纪大爆发时刻。
So we are and we talked about the OPUS four five Cambrian explosion moment.
在智能体商业领域，我们还没有迎来那样的时刻。
We haven't had that in agentic commerce today.
就是说，目前还没有大量反复出现的典型用例。
Like, there isn't a just there aren't a ton of canonical use cases that you just see repeated over and over and over again.
我觉得有几个原因。
And I think there's a few reasons for that.
一个是基础组件还缺失。
One is we're missing primitives.
没错。
Right.
是的。
Yeah.
这正是我们非常关注的事情。
And just that's something we're very focused on.
我们用Tempo创建了机器支付协议，这样服务就能标明需要支付什么以及如何支付。
We created with Tempo the machine payments protocol so that services can indicate what needs to be paid and how you can pay for it.
所以如果你在网上卖一张图片或一段内容，你可以请求它并收到一个402响应。
So if you're selling, you know, an image or a piece of content online, you can request it and get a 402 response back.
它只是告诉你，这就是购买我的方式。
And it just says like, here's how you buy me.
所以那是一个基础组件。
So that's a primitive.
我们认为机器之间会互相购买。
Like, we think machines will want to buy from other machines.
而且确实有个问题，就是代理的结账流程应该是什么样的。
And there's really a question of like, what should checkout look like for agents?
这仍然是个悬而未决的问题。
Still sort of an open question.
浏览器自动化越来越好了，所以也许代理只需要爬过结账表单，然后把它们扔掉。
Know, browser automation's getting better, so maybe agents should just be, you know, crawling through checkout forms and throwing them out.
我觉得还有很多未解的问题，确实。
I think there's still a lot of open questions Absolutely.
对。
Yeah.
就像，是的。
Like the yeah.
那是拟物化的版本。
That that's the skeuomorphic version.
没错。
Exactly.
将来会有原生的版本。
There's gonna be a native version.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得没错。
I I think that's right.
我知道这是对的。
I know that's right.
所以我们正处于缺少原语的阶段，我们正在摸索中。
So we're sort of at the missing primitives phase, and we're sort of figuring that out.
然后还有一个社会层面的阶段，就是代理商务在哪些方面会比非代理商务更好。
And then there's a sociological phase of just in what ways will agentic commerce be better than non agentic commerce.
而且有一些非常实际的好处，比如结账页面就不应该存在，你知道，有了Stripe Link和Shop Pay，结账变得很容易。
And there's some very non speculative ways in which it'll be better, like just checkout pages shouldn't exist for humans, you know, with Stripe Link and Shop with Shop Pay.
现在通过结账页面很容易，但你真的需要去那个页面吗？还是你只需要在产品展示页上说“买它”就行了？
It's very easy to get through a checkout page these days, but should you even need to go to one or should you just be able to say, buy it on a, you know, product display page?
我觉得是这样。
I think so.
我觉得结账页面会消失。
I think just checkout pages will go away.
那会成为过去式。
That'll be a thing
过去式。
in the past.
对。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得它们会消失。
Think they'll they'll go away.
所以这算是代理商务的一种非投机但可能没那么宏大的形式。
And so that's like a sort of non speculative, but maybe less ambitious form of agentic commerce.
我其实觉得这挺有意思的，因为对普通用户来说，这些页面也会消失。
I actually think that's interesting because you they will go away for human users too.
对。
Yeah.
这不仅仅是，比如，只对……不。
This is not just, like, only No.
我觉得那些
I think those
会消失。
go away.
好。
Okay.
比如Stripe Link。
So Stripe link.
就像，你有大概四亿用户在用Stripe。
Like, you have, like, 400,000,000 users on Stripe
链接，然后
link, and
Shop Pay 可能也有一个
then Shop Pay probably has some
差不多大的数字，然后你可以用
comparably large number, and you can you can use
这些，直接自动化整个流程。
those and just automate the whole process.
没错。
Exactly.
对。
Yeah.
我们最近推出了链接代理钱包。
We launched recently the link agent wallet Mhmm.
所以现在有一个链接命令行工具。
So that there's now just a link CLI.
所以，智能体可以，你知道，直接获取 Link 的凭据，然后在有人工参与的情况下使用它们，告诉人们怎么用。
So an agent can just, you know, sweep up link credentials and go use them with, you know, humans in the loop to say how they can use them.
我觉得，我们对智能体商务最兴奋的领域之一，其实是 B2B。
The I think one of the places we are the most excited about agentic commerce actually is b to b.
好的。
Okay.
所以我们推出了 Stripe Projects。
So we launched Stripe Projects.
Stripe Projects 呢，是一种搭建应用的方式，这是它的狭义定义。
Stripe Projects is, you know, a way to scaffold apps, and that's sort of the the narrow definition of it.
但 Stripe Projects 最令人兴奋的地方在于，它是一种以智能体方式配置 B2B 服务的方法。
But the most exciting thing that Stripe Projects is is a way to provision b to b services agentically.
对。
Yep.
所以，智能体可以去 Vercel 托管，而且你不需要去 vercel.com 做任何操作。
So you can go agent can go adopt Vercel for hosting, and they can do it without you needing to go to vercel.com and do anything.
这实际上也影响了我们最近几笔投资的投资逻辑，是的。
This is this has actually informed our investment thesis in a few investments recently Yes.
他们的开发者工具。
Their developer tools.
对。
Yes.
然后我们说，好。
And we say, okay.
假设未来购物的是代理。
Assume that the agents are gonna be the shoppers in the future.
没错。
Exactly.
比如，这是代理会想选的那个吗？
Like, is this the one that the agents will want to pick?
是的。
Yes.
没错。
Exactly.
没错。
Exactly.
这个框架非常好。
And that's a very good framework.
你知道，智能体可以采用基于浏览器的方式。
You know, an agent can go adopt browser based.
对。
Yeah.
我们之前在Stripe做过一个很棒的演示，用基于浏览器的实时方式通过智能体填了一个NCAA的竞猜表。
And we actually had a really great demo a while back at Stripe where we used browser based live to via an agent to fill out an NCAA bracket.
那太酷了。
That's cool.
太完美了。
That's perfect.
我觉得这太棒了，因为我有三个兄弟，我们都热爱体育，但我总是太忙，没法参与家庭竞猜。
Which I thought was awesome because I have three brothers and, you know, we all love sports, but I'm always sort of too busy to engage in the family pools.
所以看到那个代理自动打开浏览器，访问ESPN网站，做点研究，然后直接填好表格，真是太酷了。
And so it was so cool to just watch the agent pick up a browser based session and fire up espn.com and do a bit of research and just fill it out.
它表现怎么样？
How'd it do?
其实我也不知道。
I don't actually know.
我们好像从来没对它做过评估。
I don't think we ever sort of ran the evals on it.
我猜大概和人类水平差不多吧。
I expect probably as good as humans are.
可能还更好。
It's probably better.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
可能更好。
Probably better.
所以我觉得，代理采用B2B或者B2C这类更实用的服务，会非常流行。
And so I do think agents sort of adopting b to b or sort of b to c services that are more utilitarian will be very popular.
所以今天，作为一个初步尝试，我们只是想让代理更容易采用这些服务。
And so today, again as a primitive, we're just trying to make it easier for agents to adopt services.
但我确实认为这种社会形态会继续演变。
But I do think the sort of sociology will continue to evolve.
长期运行的任务，我不确定我们是否已经找到了在消费者端如何实现的方法。
The long running tasks are not sort of I don't know that we've sort of figured out exactly how to do them on the consumer side.
是的，还没到那一步。
Yeah, it's not there yet.
前几天我试了一下，用Plug Code给我侄女的生日作曲。
I was trying the other day, I was using Plug Code to try to compose a song for my niece's birthday.
哦。
Oh.
对。
Yeah.
挺酷的。
It was pretty cool.
而且，你知道，以前没有Asuno的话，我肯定不会去做这件事。
And, you know, in the past, without a Asuno, I just definitely wouldn't have done that.
是的。
Yep.
有了Asuno，我可能会去做。
With Asuno, I might do that.
你可能也会用Higgs field来做，我们之前聊过它们。
You might do it with the Higgs field as well, we were talking about them earlier.
但我不确定我是否想花每月10.99美元或9.99美元去注册一个他们的账户。
But I'm not sure that I wanna go create a $10.99 or $9.99 a month account with them.
我就想要那种按次消费的方式。
I just want the sort of micro consumption for that.
所以除了实际的商业基础功能，我觉得还需要出现一些微消费的API。
And so along with the actual commerce primitives, I think there's these micro consumption APIs that need to start to exist.
我们刚才提到的浏览器费率，它们也在往这个方向靠。
And browser rates we're talking about, they're sort of leaning into it.
但我非常看好这些服务，它们不一定是匿名的，但可以是一次性的或单次消费的。
But I'm very bullish on all these services standing up not necessarily anonymous, but just ephemeral or one time consumption.
我觉得这会真正释放代理商务的潜力，因为这样你就不用说，我得每月付给这些人10美元，那些人10美元。
And I think that will really unlock agentic commerce to you because then you won't have to say, well, I need to pay these guys $10 a month, and these guys $10 on these.
你只需要说
You just would say
账户之类的。
accounts and all this stuff.
你不能只是用服务然后付钱。
You can't just use the service and pay.
代理，做这个。
Agent, do this.
发现这些服务。
Discover the services.
你的预算是15美元。
Your budget is $15.
开始吧。
Go.
我10岁的孩子一直在创作说唱歌曲。
My my 10 year old has been creating rap songs.
所以
So
所以我对这些服务非常熟悉。
so I'm very familiar with all of these services.
对。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
顺便说一下，你知道，质量其实还挺不错的，他，你知道，他把这些歌发到Spotify上了。
And by the way, you know, the the quality is actually pretty good, he's you know, he posts them on Spotify.
是的。
Yes.
但是，执行方面可能就没那么好了，
But but the execution maybe is not quite as good,
但歌词非常好。是的。
but the lyrics are very good Yes.
是AI写的。
From AI.
对。
Yes.
而且音乐本身也挺好的。
And the music itself is pretty good.
是的。
Yes.
所以，嗯，对。
So it's a Yeah.
那我会很欢迎。
I would welcome that.
对。
Yeah.
所以，我觉得你刚才说的一个关键点，或者说关键点之一，就是微支付或者微交易这个概念。
So the the critical thing, I think, or one of the critical things that you just said is this concept of micropayments or microtransactions.
对。
Yeah.
这个话题，大概从互联网出现以来就一直有人在讨论。
So this has been something that has been talked about probably since the advent of the internet Yes.
作为一个机会。
As an opportunity.
那你觉得为什么现在能行得通呢？
Like, why do you think now it could work?
嗯，智能体确实能增强人的自主性，听起来有点重复，但说到这些应用，比如为你的膝盖写首歌，填你的NCAA竞猜表，等等，没有智能体真的很难做到。
Well, agents really increase human agency, guess it almost sounds redundant, but talking about these applications, composing a song for your knees, filling out your NCAA bracket, whatever else, it's really hard to do without agents.
这很费时间，你得注册各种不同的账号。
It takes a lot of time, you're creating all these different accounts.
所以我对服务行业非常乐观，它们会倾向于说，你可以临时用我，你可以用很轻量级的方式用我。
And so I'm just very bullish on services leaning into saying you can use me ephemerally, you can use me in a very sort of lightweight way.
而且我觉得要让这行得通，你就得支持微交易。
And I think to make that work, you're just going to need to support micro transactions.
我觉得反对微交易的理由一直是，你在消费内容，如果你想卖一篇文章，你总是会被夹在订阅模式和免费模式之间。
I think the case against microtransactions has always been, well, you're trying to consume content, and if you're trying to sell an article, you're always gonna be squeezed between subscriber business model and the free business model.
对。
Yeah.
比如说，嘿。
Like, hey.
你想把多余的部分也纳入订阅用户里。
You you wanna capture the excess as part of the subscriber.
没错。
Exactly.
比如，商业模式的一个多余部分。
Like, one excess of the business model.
或者你用广告，然后，就是，两者之一比你现在做的要好。
Or you do it with ads, and just, like, their one or the other is better than what you're doing.
我觉得这在过去可能是对的，但当你给代理更复杂的任务时，你知道，你希望它们像小蜂鸟一样，在互联网上飞来飞去，这里吸一点数据，那里拉过来，用一些临时的存储，在这里做点计算。
And I think that was probably true in the past, but as you give agents more complex tasks, you know, you want them to be these little sort of hummingbirds, like going around the internet, just slurping up a little data here, you know, pulling it over here, you know, some very transient femoral storage, doing a little compute over here.
你不想让人类个体去考虑他们在用什么。
And you don't want the individual human to have to think about what they're using.
你不想让他们考虑他们在用什么，因为这些服务是安全的。
You don't want them to think about what they're using in that these services are secure.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Right.
当然。
They're Of course.
它们是正规的，但你不想让它们到处创建账户。
They're bonafide, but you don't want them to have to sort of create accounts everywhere.
所以我认为微交易对于那个经济体的存在是必要的，就是那种代理经济。
So I think microtransactions will just be necessary for that economy to exist, the sort of agentic economy.
另一方面，由于稳定币，它们现在完全可行了。
And then on the flip side, they're now eminently possible because of stablecoins.
是的。
Yeah.
而稳定币目前使用起来还不太方便。
And stablecoins are, today, relatively unergonomic.
所以如果你是个人，你得费不少周折。
So if you're a human, you know, you have to go jump through a bunch of hoops.
对。
Yep.
但如果你给代理一个预算，它们就能轻松地把美元换成稳定币，或者直接用存储的余额来支付，它们不会介意这种来回操作。是的。
But if you just give an agent a budget, they can easily, you know, take dollars, move into stables, or, just use a stored balance and find a way to check out, they don't mind the sort of back and forth Yeah.
稳定币的核心。
The core of stables.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
完全同意。
Totally agree with that.
而且，你看，我们已经看到这种转变在很多软件商业模式中发生了。对。
And, look, we've seen that transition that's happened in a lot of software business models Yeah.
今天。
Today.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yep.
比如，现在主要的商业模式是卖订阅和席位，但我们已经看到向按量付费的转变。
Like, the predominant business model of selling subscriptions and seats, and, you know, we've now seen a shift to consumption.
我觉得，可能有些类比，消费者因为能接触到更多东西而受益，企业也能接触到更多人，这在订阅模式下是做不到的。
And I think, you know, there's probably analogies where, you know, the consumers are better off because they can get get access to more stuff, and then the businesses can access more people, which they otherwise couldn't access with subscription service.
所以我希望，是的，
So my hope is that that Yeah.
你知道，这能发挥作用。
You know, that does come into play.
那么关于稳定币这个话题，
So on the topic of stablecoins
对。
Yeah.
我们已经聊了你们怎么开发软件，怎么在AI开发的世界里跑得这么快。
So we've covered sort of how you guys build software, how you move so fast in an AI development world.
我们也谈到了商业的概念，就是那种代理式商业。
You know, we've talked about the idea of commerce, you know, agentic commerce.
再聊聊稳定币吧。
Talk about stablecoins.
你说现在流程里有很多摩擦，但说说稳定币市场的现状，以及你看到未来五年有什么机会。
Like, you said there's a lot of friction in the process today, but just state state of the stablecoin market and what you see the opportunity to be for the next, call it, five years.
我是个基础设施迷，所以总是先想到这个。
So I'm an infrastructure nerd, so I always will go there first.
稳定币就是比现有方式更好的资金转移平台。
And stablecoins are just a better platform for moving money than exists otherwise.
我们非常同意。
We strongly agree.
而且更好有几个原因。
And better for a couple reasons.
你知道，有些国家已经推出了非常优秀的支付系统。
You know, there are certain countries that have rolled out really good payment systems.
其中大多数都是国家主导的。
Most of them are nationalized.
比如印度的UPI（统一支付接口）。
You know, UPI in in India.
其实挺有意思的，看看这些经济体，印度通过UPI进行的5美元以下小额支付占比，我记得大概是86%左右。对。
Actually, it's interesting when you look at these economies, the percentage of sub $5 payments in India, I believe, on UPI is, I think, something like 86%, whereas Yeah.
哇。
Wow.
在美国，我觉得信用卡支付的比例是个位数。
In The US, cards, I think it's single digits percent.
对。
Yeah.
所以你看，现在有一些由国家主导的、既便宜又快速的支付方案。
So, you know, there's some good, cheap, fast payment schemes that are nationalized.
PIX，巴西的另一个例子，也发展得很快。
PIX, another one in Brazil, which has grown Yeah.
纽约。
New York.
但全球经济需要一个结算点。
But you need a shelling point for the global economy.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Right.
我们大家能达成共识的是什么？
Just what can we all agree on?
而这就是加密货币轨道解决这个政治问题的地方。
And that's where crypto rails solve this political problem.
这个平台就是到处都能用。
It's just this platform works everywhere.
对。
Mhmm.
所以如果我们都使用它，全球金融体系会运行得更好、更快、更便宜，等等。
And so if we just all used it, the world, the global financial system would work better, be faster, be cheaper, so on.
所以如果我们今晚都入睡，明天醒来时都持有稳定币，那全球就会变得更好。
So if we all went to sleep tonight and woke up tomorrow and we all held stables, it would just be a better global
摩擦更少
Less friction
成本也更低。没错。
and less cost Exactly.
现在，这可能是那种“应该这样运作，但可能永远不会这样运作”的问题之一，所以我们正坚定地专注于努力改变这一点。
In the Now that might be one of those should work this way, may never work this way problems, and so we are sort of resolutely focused on trying to change that.
我们之前谈到了Stripe Treasury，我们决定让稳定币成为Stripe Treasury的原生功能，这样你就可以像持有美元、欧元或QPP等货币余额一样，持有稳定币余额。
We talked earlier about Stripe treasury, and we decided to make stablecoins native to Stripe treasury, so you can just hold a balance in stables just like you can hold a balance in USD or EUR or QPP or anything like that.
所以我们相信，稳定币的机会在于更快的资金流动、更便宜的资金流动，以及更全球化的资金流动。
So we believe that the opportunity for stables is just faster money movement, cheaper money movement, and more global money movement.
现在，你可以在大约60个国家用法币使用Stripe，具体数字我记不清了，但用稳定币的话，我想大概有150个国家。
Right now you can be a Stripe user in, I can't remember what the exact number is, but around 60 countries in fiat, But you can be a Stripe user in stablecoins in I think about 150 countries.
所以，这能让更多人进入线上经济，让他们能够和AI公司交易，而且随着软件经济越来越全球化，让更多人参与进来，价值就越来越大。
So just bringing more people into the online economy in a way that allows them to you know, transact with, you know, the AI companies and, you know, as the as the economy the software economy gets more and more global, like, bringing more people into it is more and more valuable.
你可以用两个工程师在泰国打造一个强大的AI公司，就像在美国或巴西一样容易。
You can build a powerful AI company with two engineers in Thailand just as well as you can do it in The US or as well as you can do it in Brazil.
所以，对我们来说，稳定币就是性能更高、更全球化。
So, you know, for sables, for us, it is higher performance, more global.
对。
Yeah.
而且我喜欢你们在稳定币方面的定位，因为，再说一次，这就是顺应市场需求。
And I like the position that you guys are in as it relates to stablecoins just because, again, talk about meeting the market where it is.
人们不想完全切换到批发层面，是的。
Like, people don't want to cut over full wholesale Yes.
然后，你知道，放弃所有法币，转向稳定币。
And just, you know, drop all their fiat and move over to stablecoins.
所以我觉得你们拥有的关系和全面的服务，能让企业按照自己想要的节奏去采用。
And so I think the relationships that you have and the sort of comprehensive offering that you have allows for adoption to happen at the pace that the enterprises want adoption get to adopt at.
对。
Yeah.
或者初创公司。
Or start ups.
公司。
Ups.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
而且当你真正投入去做的时候，这一切都会奏效。
And all of this works, you know, when you really lean into it.
Felix，我想他们现在叫这个名字，最初是做美国和墨西哥之间的汇款公司，现在也有其他通道了，他们完全用稳定币来构建的。
Felix, think, is is is they're called now, which started as a remittance company between The US and and Mexico and now, you know, has other corridors as well, they built it all in stables.
几年下来，他们现在占据了这条走廊汇款量的5%到10%，而这条走廊是世界上最大的汇款走廊。
And a few years in, they're now between 510% of remittances along that corridor, which is the largest remittance corridor in the world.
对。
Yeah.
太了不起了。
It's amazing.
所以，你想啊，公司要花多长时间才能高效地转移法币，想想世界上那些最聪明的公司最初花了多久才做到这一点，更不用说之前的西联汇款了，这些都是很棒的公司，但能在短短几年内达到5%到10%的份额，真是令人惊叹。
And so, you know, you think about how long it takes companies to, you know, to move fiat money efficiently, you know, how long it took initially for the wisest of the world to do this, let alone the western unions before it, you know, these are great companies, but to get to five to 10% in just a few years is amazing.
确实了不起。
That's remarkable.
对。
Yeah.
我想请你谈谈Tempo。
I'd love to have you talk a little bit about Tempo.
好的。
Yeah.
所以，你知道，显然这是一个你们正在参与的重大项目。
So, you know, obviously, it's a big important project that you guys are are in the
处于核心位置。
center of.
跟我们聊聊，这个项目现在进展如何，以及你们对它有什么期望。
Talk about, you know, where that is and and what the aspirations for it are.
好的。
Yeah.
我想我这次又要扮演一下基础设施技术迷的角色了。
And I think this I'll I'll just play the infrastructure nerd card again for a second.
现在有很多优秀的区块链，我觉得除了支付领域，确实没有必要再发明一个新的区块链。
There are great blockchains, you know, and I think there are, there was no obvious need for another blockchain outside of payments.
而且有很多原因说明，一个专门用于支付的区块链可以运作得非常好。
And there's a whole lot of reasons why a payment specific blockchain can work really well.
比如隐私性，因为区块链通常是公开的，人们可以反向分析链上的活动。
Privacy for one, because blockchains are generally public and sort of reverse engineer what's happening on blockchains.
所以我们想确保隐私是首要的基本特性。
So wanna make sure that privacy is a first class primitive.
确保吞吐量永远不会被牺牲。
Making sure that throughput is never sacrificed.
区块链被大量用于交易。
Blockchains are disproportionately used for trading.
所以当你看到大规模交易事件发生时，性能通常会大幅下降。
And so when you see massive trading events happen, you'll typically see performance degrade a lot.
交易费用，比如找到一种方法创建一个区块链，让交易费用永远不会飙升，因为其他区块链有这种问题，这很重要，是的。
Transaction fees, like finding a way to create a blockchain where the transaction fee is never gonna spike because other blockchains have Disability is important, yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
而且他们有浮动的燃料费。
And they have floating gas fees.
所以这个项目的目标就是，我们如何尽可能高效、稳定、便宜地转移资金？
And so the project there is just saying how do we move money as efficiently, consistently, and cheaply as possible?
还在早期建设阶段，但已经取得了很好的进展，和DoorDash这样的公司合作，让它成为Stripe的默认区块链，但不仅仅是Stripe，我对这个前景非常乐观。
Still in the early stages of building out, getting a lot of great traction, you work working with companies like DoorDash, you know, making it sort of the default, but not only blockchain in Stripe, and feeling very optimistic about it.
那很好。
That's great.
太棒了。
That's awesome.
最后一个我想和你聊的话题是代币经济。
Last topic I would love to cover with you is just the sort of token economy.
嗯。
Mhmm.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以，这听起来有点像是流行词，但你们，我觉得已经超过两万亿了，是的。
And so, you know, it sounds a little buzzwordy, but you guys are, you know, I think over 2,000,000,000,000 Yes.
现在的交易量。
Of volume now.
而且我觉得，你和我可能都相信，代币经济将会是我们见过的最大的事物之一。
And I think, you know, you and I would probably share the belief that the token economy is going to be one of the biggest things we've ever seen.
是的。
Yes.
那么，你觉得目前获取代币的情况怎么样？
So, you know, what do you think is kind of the state of play for accessing tokens?
显然，现在很多工作都是在第一方应用中完成的。
Obviously, there's a lot of work that gets done in first party applications today.
你觉得未来我们获取模型和代币的方式会是什么样的？
What do you think is sort of the future state of how we all access models and tokens?
嗯，
Well,
我一直很喜欢“代币”这个词，因为它听起来就像是货币的近似物。
love, I've always loved the word token, and the reason is that it just sounds like an approximation of money.
对。
Yeah.
而且现在，它确实就是这样。
And increasingly, that's just what it is.
我们看到，之前提到过的免费试用滥用、多账户操作，以及针对那些通用型token消费平台用户的攻击，现在越来越多了。
We're seeing, you know, talked earlier about free trial abuse, multi accounting, and the attacks that we're seeing against users who have sort of general whose platforms are general purpose token consumers.
在Cursor上，你可以用token做几乎任何事情。
You know, you can do just about anything with tokens on Cursor.
对吧？
Right?
在Repli上，你也可以用token做几乎任何事情。
You can do just about anything with tokens on on Repli.
所以针对这些用户的攻击非常复杂。
So the attacks against these users are very sophisticated.
它们很像我们看到的那些试图从Stripe用户那里偷钱的行为。
They're very reminiscent of what we see, you know, in terms of people trying to steal money from Stripe users.
所以你会看到token和美元之间的界限越来越模糊。
And so there's this blurring that you see between tokens and dollars.
所以对我们来说，我们想帮助用户安全合规地转账、存钱、汇款等等。
And so for us, we think about wanting to help users move money, store money, send money safely, compliantly, and so on.
现在我们也觉得有责任在代币方面做同样的事情，对吧，以同样的方式保护我们的用户。
And now feel this mandate to do the same thing on tokens, right, and to protect our users in the same way.
而且随着时间推移，这种情况只会越来越多。
And over time, think this is only gonna happen more.
我们谈到一些长期运行的智能体任务，其中很多会取代人工服务。
We talk about some of these long running agentic tasks, and a lot of them will replace services.
你只需要说“帮我结账”，以前我为此付钱给一个人或很多人，现在我只付给更少的人或一个人，或者说，用美元支付。
You'll just be able to say, Close my books, and I used to pay a human in tokens for that, or many humans, now I pay fewer humans or a human, or sorry, in dollars for that.
现在我只付给更少的人或一个人。
Now I pay fewer humans or a human
对，用代币。
Yeah, in tokens.
用代币，对吧？
In tokens, right?
因为他们有智能体辅助。
Because they're augmented by agents.
所以我们只是想确保在代币和美元之间的转换，能像美元和欧元之间一样顺畅和安全。
So we just wanna make sure that moving between tokens and dollars is as seamless as moving and safe as moving between, you know, dollars and euros.
对。
Yeah.
我们还在起步阶段，但我们认为这会是Stripe未来的重要部分。
We're at the beginning of this journey, but we think it's gonna be a big part of the future of Stripe.
是的。
Yeah.
那太棒了。
That's awesome.
对。
Yeah.
这真的非常令人兴奋。
It's it's it's super exciting.
而且，说实话，我个人觉得你们确实有资格在这方面发挥作用。是的。
And and, look, personally speaking, I think you guys have a real right to play a role there Yeah.
因为你们从成立之初就和这么多公司建立了关系。没错。
Because of the relationship that you have with so many companies since inception Yes.
一直到大企业客户，就像你们
All the way through to enterprise, as you
对。
Yeah.
而且我们，说起来挺有意思的。
And we we use it's funny.
我们内部其实一直有点小心，不太喜欢谈“权利”这个词，所以我们说“使命”。
We're we're always a little bit careful internally about talking about about rights, and so we talk about mandates.
那挺好的。
That's good.
对。
Yeah.
感觉就像赢了，然后再赢一次。
Feel like Win it and then win it again.
没错。
Exactly.
我们有责任帮助用户解决这个问题，所以这就是我们为什么这么投入的原因。
Have a mandate to help users with this, and so that's why we're really leaning into it.
我们也在更加关注客户的支出管理。
We're also focusing even more on spend management for our customers.
他们使用Stripe Treasury，经常思考花了多少钱，怎么减少支出，以及支出和收入的关系。
They're using Stripe treasury, they're thinking a lot about how much they're spending and how to reduce their spending, how their spending ties to the revenue.
而且，你知道，很多代币的使用其实是在产品内部。
And, you know, a lot of token usage is actually in product.
对。
Yeah.
所以你会看到两种不同类型的代币使用情况。
So you see sort of two different types of token usage.
一种是为了构建东西，这属于令牌管理的运营支出管理方面。
One is, you know, to build things, and this is sort of the OpEx management side of token management.
另一种是令牌管理的产品效能方面，就是我的令牌导向或令牌驱动的产品到底有多好，我应该如何在不同的模型之间切换以使其最有效？
And then there's the product efficacy side of token management, just how good is my token oriented or sort of token driven product, how should I shift between different models to make it the most effective?
所以我们真的在思考如何在这两个方面帮助用户。
And so we're really thinking about how do we help users on both of these.
对。
Yeah.
当然。
For sure.
我的意思是，尤其是在后者，这种作为编排层的定位，是的。
I mean, certainly in the latter, this sort of, you know, position as an orchestration layer Yes.
这能帮你有效地充分利用令牌，而且，是的。
That helps you effectively get the most out of tokens and Yes.
你知道，同时还能保持某种形式的控制。
You know, also maintain some form of control.
对。
Yes.
我觉得现在这个话题比以往任何时候都更受关注。
Think it's, like, never been more top of mind than it is right now.
对。
Yes.
确实。
Absolutely.
是的。
Yeah.
这很有趣，因为有一种假设认为软件会被严重商品化，这是有可能的。
And it's it's interesting because there's a hypothesis that, software will be severely commoditized, and it's possible.
我觉得我们现在要么正处于奇点之中，要么正在慢慢逼近奇点，很难想象未来会是什么样子，比如模型会递归地生成模型，等等等等。
I think we're at the, let's say we're either in the singularity or creeping towards the singularity, and it's very hard to estimate what a future looks like where, you know, models are sort of recursively, you know, generating models and so on and so on.
但我们看到的情况恰恰相反，现在软件创作正在爆发式增长。
But we are seeing the exact opposite right now where, you know, software creation is exploding.
是的。
Yes.
客户变现的速度比以往任何时候都快。
Customers are monetizing faster than ever.
我们提到过，2026届的客户群体比2025届大了50%，而且增长速度也更快。
We talked about our twenty twenty six cohort growing 50 faster than our or 50% larger and growing faster than 25 cohort.
对。
Right.
而2025届又比2024届大了70%，增长速度也更快。
That one being 70% larger and growing faster than the 24 cohort.
所以，你看，软件被创造得更多，被采用的速度也比以往任何时候都快。
And so, you know, some more software being created, it's being adopted faster than ever before.
而且，采用Stripe产品的数量也比以往任何时候都多。
And then more Stripe products are being adopted than ever before.
Eleven Labs用了14个Stripe产品。
Eleven Labs is using 14 Stripe products.
有点希望是11，但其实我很高兴是14。
Sort of Wish it were 11 in a way, but actually I'm glad it's 14.
那就做到22吧。
Just make it '22.
我们和Matti关系很近，
We're close with Matti,
他做什么都按11的倍数来。
and he does everything in denominations of 11.
所以你
So you
得朝着22去。
gotta shoot for '22.
没错。
Exactly.
而且软件远不止是开发那么简单。
And there's a lot more to software than just building.
关于抽象如何贯穿整个业务，以及如何保持这些抽象的最新状态，这里面有很多专业知识。公司内部会有人员流动，你内部建了一个系统，然后它开始慢慢退化，那个人离开了公司，专业知识也就随之消失了。
There's the expertise about how abstractions should thread through your entire business, sort of keeping those up to date, you have turnover inside of your company, and so you build a system internally, and then it starts to sort of degrade, and that person leaves the company, and the expertise goes away.
所以我们思考的是，如何帮助公司在整个收入链条上管理现金、管理收入、更快地结账、更快地增长、更快地全球化。
And so we think about just how can we help companies across their entire revenue stack, manage cash, manage revenue, close the books faster, grow faster, globalize faster.
我觉得这个机会比以往任何时候都要大。
And that opportunity, I think, is just larger than it was ever ever was before.
对。
Yeah.
完全同意。
Couldn't couldn't agree more.
对。
Yeah.
那么，最后我想听听你的看法，我不想深入讨论人类与AI的角色问题。
So, in closing, I wanted to just get your take, and this is I don't wanna get too deep into, you know, the role of humans versus AI.
但Stripe一直以品味著称，这一点是大家公认的，也是大家欣赏的。
But one of the things that Stripe has always been universally recognized for and appreciated for, I think, is your taste.
对吧？
Right?
听起来有点奇怪，因为你们是基础设施公司，但我觉得这是大家公认的。
And it sounds funny because you're an infrastructure company, but I think it's it's generally agreed upon.
在这么大的规模下，而且现在很多工作都是AI在做，你们是怎么继续保持这种品味的？
How do you continue to uphold that at such a large scale, and with so much of the work that you're doing now being done by AI?
是啊，现在“品味”这个词用得真多，挺有意思的。
Yeah, it's interesting how much the word taste is being used right now.
而且
And
有时候很难说，悲观一点看，这可能是我们在为自己的未来价值找理由。
it's sort of hard sometimes, the cynical view is that it's how we're all justifying our future value.
对，好像没人真的有品味，我们只是复制以前见过的东西的机器。
Yeah, that no one actually has taste and it's just we're all reproducing machines of things that we had previously perceived.
是的，我的手指已经没那么有用了，但“品味”这种模糊的概念还在，而且模型永远不会有品味之类的说法，这很可能不是真的。
Yes, and my fingers are no longer as useful, but this nebulous notion of taste is, and models will never have taste and so on, which is probably just not true.
对，我同意你的看法，但是关于
Yeah, agree with you But on
回到你刚才问的问题，产品质量确实是我们文化和身份的核心。
to your, more proximate to your question, product quality is really, really core to our culture and to our identity.
原因有几个。
It's for a few reasons.
首先，我们希望用户能拥有精心打造、令人惊叹的工具，让他们效率更高，享受创业的旅程。
One is just we want users to have amazing tools that are carefully crafted, that can make them go faster, enjoy the journey of building a company that much more.
创业不容易，但如果工具出乎意料地好用，感觉会好很多。
It's not an easy journey, but if you have tools that are surprisingly great, feels that much better.
所以这主要是从用户角度出发。
So it's a big user lens.
另一个方面是，这样更有趣。
Another dimension of it is it's just more fun.
你和团队一起做出的东西，你会觉得，哇，真好看，而不是拼凑起来勉强能用，那样经历漫长的夜晚和周末的辛苦工作就没那么有意思了。
You look at what you created with your team and you're like, wow, that looks amazing, versus you kind of janked this thing together and it barely works, and it just isn't as fun to go through the slog, the long nights, the long weekends, and so on, to build it.
我觉得在Stripe，如果要扩大对品味的追求，我会说一件事，其实两件事。
And I think the single thing I would say for scaling tastes at Stripe, well, actually two things.
第一，我觉得必须从上到下推动。
One is I think it has to be tops down.
就是得一遍又一遍地强调。
Just have to say it over and over and over again.
就像公司战略是赢得初创企业，然后再次赢得他们。
It's like company strategy of win the startups and win them again.
就像谈论质量，然后再次谈论它。
It's like talk about quality and talk about it again.
然后另一件事就是使用产品。
And then the other thing is just use the product.
对。
Yes.
并且让使用产品变得容易。
And make it easy to use the product.
在航空领域，模拟非常重要。
In aviation, simulation is so important.
你不能只是说，我
You can't just say, I
希望飞机能正常工作。
hope the jet works.
你必须在真正飞行之前，先向自己证明它确实能行。
You have to prove to yourself that it does before you ever fly it.
或者像英伟达，他们真正实现突破性进展的时候，是他们不再需要等晶圆厂把芯片送过来才能测试，而是可以直接进行模拟。对。
Or in Nvidia, they really hit escape velocity was when they, you know, went from needing to wait for the fab to give them the chips to try the chips to actually simulate Yeah.
所以是芯片性能。
So chip performance.
所以我们确实在模拟产品使用方面投入了很多。
So we actually invest a lot in simulating the usage of products.
是的。
Yeah.
关于 Bayt 播客
Bayt 提供中文+原文双语音频和字幕，帮助你打破语言障碍，轻松听懂全球优质播客。