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传统媒体的一个规矩就是别太感兴趣。
One rule of old media is don't be interested.
因为这可是最糟糕的事了。
Like, that's the worst thing you can do.
现在通过传统媒体，你根本找不到任何你真正喜欢的内容。
There is no way to get to anything resembling a story that you're gonna like through the traditional media anymore.
说白了，这根本不可能。
Like, it's just basically not possible.
传统媒体渠道少，形式也特别受限。
Old media, you have very restricted channels with very restricted formats.
新媒体呢？形式无限多，渠道也无限多，品牌现在就是人本身。
New media is unlimited formats, unlimited channels, and the brand is now the person.
这方面的大师是亚历克斯·卡。
The grand wizard of this is Alex Carr.
你要是看他做的访谈，他从来不会提到帕兰提尔。
If you watch his interviews, he never talks about Palantir.
大家自然而然地习惯从内向外想，先想自己和自己的公司、产品，再推向世界。
Everybody just naturally thinks inside out, me and my company and my product out into the world.
别这么想。
Don't think that way.
试着从另一个角度思考，比如世界上正在发生哪些最有趣的事，然后这些事跟我们有什么关系？
Think in terms of, like, what are the most interesting things happening in the world, and then how do those things relate to us?
传统媒体是以防御为导向的。
Old media is defense oriented.
新媒体主打的是进攻。
New media is offense.
多聊聊这个话题。
Talk talk more about
具体说说为什么是这样。
why that is.
大家心里还是有点焦虑，总觉得传统媒体才是那个代表体面、拥有话语权的平台。
There's still this anxiety that people have, which is the legacy media somehow is, like, where the respectability or the the thieves is.
我不再这么认为了，我觉得大家真的该把这种想法放下了。
I don't believe that anymore, and I think it's very important for people to kinda get that out of their system.
几十年来，大部分公共信息都通过少数几个机构传播。
For decades, most public communication flowed through a small number of institutions.
电视网、报纸、杂志，还有那么几个把关人，决定着哪些故事能被讲出来，谁有资格来讲。
Television networks, newspapers, magazines, and a handful of gatekeepers determined which stories were told and who got to tell them.
那个世界正在发生变化。
That world is changing.
如今，创业者、创作者、投资人和运营者都能通过社交媒体、通讯简报、播客和视频直接与受众沟通。
Today, founders, creators, investors, and operators can communicate directly with audiences through social media platforms, newsletters, podcasts, and video.
这带来了一套全新的规则，决定了想法如何传播、品牌如何建立，以及影响力如何运作。
The result is a new set of rules for how ideas spread, how brands are built, and how influence works.
本对话录自新媒体峰会现场，探讨了直接沟通的兴起、传统把关人的衰落，以及创业者能从互联网时代成功积累受众的人身上学到什么。
Recorded live at the New Media Summit, this conversation explores the rise of direct communication, the decline of traditional gatekeepers, and what founders can learn from the people who have successfully built audiences in the Internet era.
首先，我想说今天是加比的生日。
So first, I just wanna say it's Gaby's birthday today.
欢迎你，Gaby，加入这个团队。
Welcome, Gaby, to the firm.
我特别高兴能见到Gaby，原因有很多，其中一个是因为本原本买了第六场比赛的前排票，但今天来不了，所以我们特别幸运，他能来这儿。
I'm so excited to Knicks one in five for many reasons, but one is that Ben had floor seats to game six and wasn't gonna make it today, and so we're so lucky that we get to have Ben here.
Marc其实不是特别关注篮球，但他发过一条推文，说杰伦·布伦森打球完全靠直觉，而不是靠自我反思。
And Marc, not a huge basketball guy, but he did tweet about how Jalen Brunson, he had a comment where that he operates purely on instinct, not on introspection.
Marc很欣赏这一点。
And Marc appreciates that.
去休息一下，Maxine。
Recharge, Maxine.
当然是在工作。
Obviously working.
没错。
Exactly.
很多行业里的人现在都在说。
Many people are saying across industries.
所以我觉得这真是个很自然的过渡，因为上周我们和CEO聊增长组合的时候，提到新媒体的一个关键原则就是真实——在镜头前说的话，得跟私下里面对面聊的一模一样。
And so, I actually think that's a pretty interesting segue, because one of the rules of New Media, Marc, that we were talking about with the CEO last week in our growth portfolio is authenticity, and sort of being able to have the same conversations on camera that you would have in person behind closed doors.
你能不能再深入聊聊，为什么这一点对塑造你自己的声音、建立个人影响力特别重要？
Why don't you talk about that a bit more and why that's so important to really nail in terms of nailing your voice and how to build that presence?
很多创始人容易犯的错，就是太拘谨，太刻意追求媒体形象，但其实当我们重新定义新媒体的规则时，恰恰要从打破这些套路开始。
Because a lot of mistakes that founders will make is trying to be too buttoned up, trying to be too media trained, etcetera, as we uncover the new rules of new media when you start there.
对。
Yeah.
我年轻的时候有过一次特别关键的经历，九十年代，那时候你和本刚起步，还没博客，也没YouTube这些平台。
So, I had this really formative experience when I was younger, so in the nineties, when Ben and I were coming up, you know, was pre blogs, pre YouTube, all this stuff.
那时候大家默认，只要你创业或者做点什么，都得通过传统媒体，得走那些老牌渠道，所有人都得接受媒体培训，怎么说话、怎么应对采访，
So And in those days, the assumption was a 100% of what you did, if you were running a company or doing anything, was you were gonna have to work through established media, legacy media, and then everybody would get, of course, media trained in how to do it, and
这大概是世界上最痛苦的事了。
Most painful experience in the world.
没错。
Oh, yeah.
对于没接受过媒体训练的人来说，其实
So for people who haven't been through media training, it's actually
就看看自己在电视上的样子吧。
Like, watch yourself on TV.
这
It's
是的。
Yeah.
所以，好吧。
So okay.
媒体训练通常是这样的。
So here's how media training work.
不知道你们现在还做不做这个了？
Don't know you still do it, but do they still do it?
你们现在还做吗？
You guys still do it?
好的。
Okay.
对。
Yeah.
抱歉。
I apologize.
好的。
Okay.
所以对于没经历过的人来说，确实如此。
So for people who haven't been through it, yeah.
就是你被带到镜头前，有人装成你的朋友，一口气跟你聊满六十分钟，然后还逼你坐在那儿把整个录像看一遍，这简直是对你最狠的一招。
So it's like you get put in front of a camera in your face, and then somebody, like, who you think is your friend, they do the full sixty minutes interview with you for, an hour, and then they literally make you sit there and watch it, which is just, the meanest thing you could
对人太残忍了。
do to somebody.
还要挑你的毛病，你盯着自己看，哪儿没做好，他们就在旁边说：你看见你刚才哪里搞砸了吗？
And critique you, and you're looking at yourself, fuck it up, and they're going, you see how you fucked that up?
你简直惊呆了。
And you're like, wow.
我现在特别不自在。
I'm really uncomfortable now.
我以后绝对不上电视。
I'm never going on TV.
没错。
Exactly.
你心里想着，能不能快进算了。
And you're like, can we just fast no.
根本没法快进。
You can't fast forward.
得从头到尾看完，说不定还得再看一遍。
We're gonna watch the entire thing, and then maybe we'll watch it again.
所以这特别能暴露人，顺便你也就能看清自己平时那些小动作和表现。
And so it is very revealing, and you discover all kinds of things about your personal affect, by the way, also.
你会发现自己平时说的那些多余的话。
You discover all the things you do, all the extra words.
你有多讨厌自己的声音。
How much you hate your voice.
是的。
Yes.
没错。
Exactly.
你有多讨厌自己的样子。
How much you hate how you look.
真的，太惊人了。
Mean, it's incredible.
太惊人了。
It's incredible.
如果你的自尊能挺过这一关，就能走上成功的道路。
And so if your ego survives the beating, you go into a successful career.
所以你就是这么做的。
And so that's what you did.
但总觉得特别怪，因为结果出来的时候，我总是忍不住想：哇，真没想到。
But it was always so weird because it's like the result, it just always struck me as just like the result is, wow.
你看到那些有重要观点的大人物。
You see important people with important things to say.
在电视上，他们看起来就像塑料人一样。
On TV, they just seem like plastic people.
感觉一切都特别假，全是演的。
They just seem like it's all very fake and staged.
顺便说一句，这都是以前的事了，那时候的主播和采访者全都在用那种播音腔。
And then by the way, know, this is in the old days, because all the anchor people or interviewers are all like, oh, using anchorman voice.
然后你再看那些高管，说的话都是最没棱角、最没争议的。
And then you get a CEO up there who just says the most innocuous things possible.
那时候的很多高管——其实现在也一样——他们衡量一次采访或演讲成功与否，标准就是尽量不惹麻烦，对吧？
And a lot of CEOs in those days, and by the way, still, they rank their success in doing an interview or giving a speech based on minimum controversy, right?
所以我跟很多首席执行官合作过。
So, I've worked with lots of CEOs.
他们上台时特别自豪，因为没惹出任何麻烦，对吧？
They come on stage, they're very proud of themselves because they didn't make any news, right?
差不多就是这样，没错，确实如此。
Sort of like that, and so Yep, that
这正是关键。
is the key.
轰动新闻就是坏消息。
Tall news is bad news.
所以我们当时雇了
So we hired, at
那位被认为是最顶尖的媒体教练，他以前是《60分钟》的制片人。
the time, considered the best media trainer who was a guy who had previously been a producer of sixty Minutes.
李·泽尔丁。
Lee Zeldin.
李·泽尔丁，他以前是个制片人。
Lee Zeldin, who'd been a producer.
当时他其实挺有名的。
He was actually quite a well known guy at the time.
他曾经是洛威尔·伯格曼的制片人，而洛威尔·伯格曼是谁？
He had been Lowell Bergman's producer, and Lowell Bergman became Lowell Bergman?
不是。
No.
我的意思是，迈克·华莱士，那整个团队就是那样。
Well, mean, Mike Wallace, was that whole complex.
他说，我们不会用那些老套的媒体培训方式。
He's like, we're not doing any of the classic media training that we do.
他说，我们要做的是大家都忽视的事——让你在公众面前说的每句话，都像跟朋友吃午饭时那样自然。
He said, we're gonna do the thing that everybody always underrates, which is we're gonna get you to basically just say all the things in public that you would say if you were sitting having lunch with a friend.
对吧？
Right?
我当时心里突然一下就亮了，心想，对啊。
And I remember at the back of my head like just blew open because it's just like, okay.
紧接着我就想，那我们为啥要付这人钱？
And then immediately you're like, okay, why are we paying this guy?
然后一想，不对。
Then it's like, no.
因为这建议听起来太直白了，可偏偏没人会告诉你这些，这到底是为啥？
Because that's like very obvious advice, then it's like, nobody else will give you that advice, and what's going on.
他接着说：
He said the following.
他说，如果你站在台上或者接受采访时，聊的某个话题你根本没吃透，那你到底在干嘛？你唯一该谈的，就是那些你真正懂透了的事。
He said, if you are on stage or in an interview, and you were talking about something, and you don't know that topic inside out already, what the hell are you doing So the only thing that you should ever be talking about is something that you know intimately.
只要你真懂，就能说得生动有力，把你的真实想法传递出来，自然就会让人觉得你特别有意思——就像你跟朋友面对面吃午饭时那样。
If you know it intimately, you should be able to talk about it in a viscerally interesting way that really relays your thoughts on the thing, and you ought to be able to come across as a very interesting person because, you know, it's just like if you're sitting across the table talking to a friend.
所以他的培训核心就是百分之百让你别搞那些花架子，就专注于做到这一点。
And so he's like, my training is a 100% to try to get you to not do all the other stuff and basically be able to do that.
还有另一点，因为你总觉得媒体是跟你作对的，所以另一件事就是，别管他叫什么‘转折’还是别的，根本就是别回答他们的问题。
And then the other part, because you assume the media's adversarial, the other part was then the, forget what he called, the pivot or whatever, which was basically just the thing of like, never answer their questions.
你永远要自己提问题，也就是说
You always answer your own questions, which is
不过说真的，这样听起来有点不自然。
Which, by the way, makes it a little unnatural.
对吧？
Right?
确实有点。
It it does.
这种做法能奏效，是因为它像绝地武士的招数，就是说，嗯，就这么简单。
It's the Jedi Knight thing that made that whole approach work, which is it's just, okay.
你是在全国范围内讲话。
You're talking nationally.
在全国讲话的一个办法，就是干脆不答那些糟糕的问题，转而抛出你自己的好问题。
Well, one of the ways you talk nationally is you just refuse to answer the bad questions, and then you just substitute in your good question.
总之，他讲完这一整套，让我们看着整个新媒体格局这三十年的演变，真的让人感叹。
Anyway, so he went through the whole thing, so that, you we've been watching the evolution of the whole new media landscape for thirty years, and it's just like, wow.
你看帕尔默·拉奇怎么做，或者看亚历克斯·卡普怎么做，或者看埃隆怎么做，又或者是看那些顶尖的传播者怎么做，他们都在用这一招。
If you watch what Palmer Lucky does or if you watch what Alex Karp does or if you watch what Elon does or you watch what any of the great communicators do, that's what they're doing.
你知道的，我最近老把黄仁勋拉出来当例子。
You know, I say put Jensen in the net rank lately.
真的让人忍不住感叹。
It's just like, wow.
顺便提一下，这也推动了长播客的兴起，那种长达三小时的深度对谈。
And by way, this is the rise of the long form podcast, the three hour conversation.
另外，人们开始重新重视那种有趣的人进行有趣对话的理念。这在当时可是相当前卫的想法，而现在已经变得很普遍了。
And then just, by the way, the sort of re rise of the idea of just interesting people having interesting conversations, which was very radical at one point, which is now a common thing.
所以我认为这依然是最核心的建议。
And so I think that remains the actual advice.
当然，正如 Erik 所说，这种做法传达出的是一种真实感。也就是说，除了听他们说了什么，作为观众，我是否真的感觉到自己是在和一个真实的人交流？
And of course, Erik, to your point, what that gets across is authenticity, which is like, okay, in addition to what's being said, do I actually, as the audience, do I actually feel like I'm meeting the real person?
是的
Yeah.
对
Yeah.
没错
Yeah.
说得很到位。
Very good points.
我们一直在讨论传统媒体是防御型的，而新媒体则是进攻型的。
We've been talking about how old media is defense oriented, new media is offense.
进一步聊聊为什么会这样，以及这种策略具体是怎么运作的。
Talking more about why that is and what that playbook looks like.
我们之前在那次会面中还提到过一件事，马克，那就是‘由外而内’的重要性，要把你的故事放在外部环境的大背景下来看。
One of things we were talking about, Marc, also in that meeting is the importance of outside in and situating sort of your story within the context of what's happening externally.
是的
Yeah.
在我看来，媒体——记者听到我这么说会气疯了，但正因如此，我知道我说得没错——传统媒体和老牌媒体给自己定了两个角色。
So the press, in my view, and a reporter's furious at me when I say this, which is why I know that I'm correct, is the traditional press, legacy press, defined itself as having two functions.
对吧？
Right?
一个是中立客观的新闻报道，有时候叫‘无源之声’，意思是把事情的两方面都呈现出来。
Which one was impartial journalism, objective journalism, sometimes called the voice from nowhere, which meant presenting both sides of something.
顺便说一句，这种做法默认每件事都有两面。
By the way, under the assumption that everything has two sides.
而且还不允许超过两面，这就有点奇怪了。
And by the way, not more than two sides, so that there's always something a little bit weird about that.
至少它的初衷是把一个问题讲清楚，解释明白，让不同立场的代表各自发声。
But at least the idea of showing an issue, explaining it, articulating it, letting different spokespeople for the different points of view actually say it.
第二个使命是向权力说真话。
The second mission was to speak truth to power.
是的。
Yeah.
那就是妨碍了第一个的那一个。
That that that was the one that got in the way of the first.
就是这个妨碍了第一个。
That's the one that got in the way the first one.
所以，揭露权力真相，他们最后把这描述成‘打击舒适者，安慰受苦者’。
So speak truth to power, and that became, the way they ended up describing that was it was afflict the comfortable and comfort the afflicted.
对。
Yeah.
没错，到了现在，我们都明白这话是什么意思了。
Right, and of course, at this point, we know what that means.
是的。
Yeah.
结果变成了‘权力即真相’。
Well, devolved into power to truth.
这就像是媒体用这种方式逼你不敢说出自己的真实想法。
So it's like the press's way of intimidating you into not saying what you thought.
是的。
Yeah.
对，没错。
So Yeah.
没错。
Right.
因为这中间有一条界线，一边是真正客观的，另一边是带着立场的。
Because it's a line between actually objective and then activist.
带着某种目的的人。
Somebody with an agenda.
所以我觉得，随着时间推移，后一种情况完全压倒了前一种，最后就变成了常态。
And so I I think my view is what happened over time is that second one just swamped the first one, and then it just became the thing.
结果，这种互动的本质也就变了。
And then as a consequence, the very nature of the interaction changed.
我呢，从1994年到2017年，做了大量传统媒体的采访，偶尔也会碰到一些恶意攻击或者别有用心的报道，但说实话，我也说不准。
And I, you know, I mean, the short version is I did tons of traditional media between 1994 and 2017, and every once in a while, there's a hit piece or a bad faith thing or whatever, but I don't know.
百分之九十的时间里，我都觉得做这些事挺值得的，也觉得自己有机会把想说的讲清楚。
90% of the time, I felt like it had been a good idea to do it, and I felt I had been given a chance to tell my thing.
在那整个时期，全国大多数人和媒体都觉得创业挺酷的，科技也挺酷，挺有趣，有这些科技公司对美国是好事，产品用起来也挺有意思。
The way, for almost that entire run, most people in the country and in the press thought startups were kinda cool, and tech was kinda cool, and kinda fun, and it was kinda good for America that there were these tech companies, and the products were kinda fun to use.
我倒是有那么点印象。
I kind of remember those things.
是啊，那都是过去的老黄历了。
Yeah, it's an ancient myths of the past.
那时候一切都让人兴奋。
Everything was exciting.
很多记者和编辑都真心觉得，得给读者和观众讲明白这些事，得好好传达出来。
A lot of reporters and editors, and they genuinely viewed as like, oh, we need to explain this to our readers and our viewers and really, really have this come across.
然后，就像我们常说的，2017年之后，情况变了。
And then as we like to say, like, 2017, things changed.
从那以后，我觉得那种带有明确议程的模式彻底占了上风，而且我觉得，大概永远都不会再回去了。
And basically, since then, my view is that sort of second mode of being, which is the sort of agenda driven, you know, kinda really took over, and I think probably will never never actually unwind.
所以现实就是，我们总是告诉创始人，靠传统媒体，根本不可能讲出你真正想听的故事了。
And so it's just the practical reality is we always tell our founders, like, there is no way to get to anything resembling a story that you're gonna like through the traditional media anymore.
根本行不通。
Like, it's just basically not possible.
偶尔吧，确实会有那么一次。
Every once in a while, you know Yeah.
你可能能上一篇报道，但没法靠这个制定策略。
You can land a story, but you can't run a strategy.
对。
Yeah.
人们总会拿国际上的成功案例说事，没错，那确实最理想。
People point to international success and obviously, like, okay, that's the best.
例外并不能推翻规律。
Exception approves the rule.
另外那九十九个，都不是这样的。
There's 99 others that are not like that.
所以，我们必须找到一种新的方式。
And so there just needs to be a new approach.
我觉得这种新方式包含两个部分。
Then I think the new approach comes in two parts.
就像我们现在常说的，直接触达用户——你得自己讲自己的故事，而且越来越多地通过自己的渠道，以及盟友的渠道来传播。
It comes in, you know, as we all call now, go direct, which is you have to tell your own story and increasingly through your own channels and through the channels of allies.
另一点呢，就是新的声音和新的媒体。
Then the other thing is, you know, new voices and new media.
由于传统媒体已经乱成一团，现在反而出现了一个巨大的机会，催生了大量新兴媒体。就像在座的很多人，他们做得实在太出色了。
And because the legacy press has gone so bananas, obviously, there's this just massive opportunity that's opened up for the creation of of new media, and it's just like the examples, many of whom are in this room, are are just spectacular, I think, with what's happening.
这其实挺滑稽的。
It's actually really funny.
就算在媒体的黄金时代，如果你想听一个聪明人深入聊一小时，那也只能找查理·罗斯。
It used to be even in the golden age media, like, if you wanted to watch a smart person talk about something for an hour, it was Charlie Rose.
我小时候在八十年代，半夜看的都是查理·罗斯的节目。
And when I was a kid in the eighties, it was Charlie Rose at midnight.
那时候有个节目叫《CBS午夜新闻》，他就在午夜准时播出。
There was something called the CBS overnight, CBS news overnight, and he was literally at midnight.
我那时候，你知道，还没出现录像机，就得熬到半夜只为了看一场有深度的对话。
And I would and this is, like, you know, pre the VCR, you'd stay up until midnight to watch a smart conversation.
从那时候到现在， podcast 和科技自媒体这么蓬勃发展，真是巨大的进步，而且势头越来越好。
And and to go from that to what we have today in the podcast world and the sub tech world is just such an incredible advance and going incredibly well.
所以我觉得新媒体领域现在质量非常高，表现得非常出色。
So I think the New Media world is just supremely, you know, just incredibly high quality, doing incredibly well.
但人们心里还是有焦虑，总觉得传统媒体 somehow 才是正统，我也不太说得清。
But there's still this anxiety that people have, which is the legacy media somehow is, like, where the I don't know.
现在说这种话听起来简直可笑，但过去大家觉得传统媒体才有权威、有声望，我已经不信这套了，我觉得大家真该把这种想法放下了，因为世界早就变了。
I mean, it sounds so silly to say anymore, but like the respectability or the prestige is, and I don't believe that anymore, and I think it's very important for people to kinda get that out of their system because the world has changed.
你说得对，
To your point,
我们刚去过华盛顿，跟一堆华盛顿圈子里的人——参议员什么的——待在一起，我就问他们：华盛顿的人都在读什么？
so we were just in Washington, and so we were with, like, all all the kind of Washington people, senators, and whatnot, And I was asking them, what does everybody in Washington read?
还有那个 Marc Halpern 的通讯，属于新媒体领域。
And it's the Marc Halpern Newsletter, which is New Media.
所以我完全能想到 Axios、《华盛顿邮报》之类的媒体。
So I fully expect Axios, The Washington Post, and so forth.
顺便说一句，公司里那些还守着传统媒体的人，除了华盛顿那边，大家都看那些老掉牙的东西。其实连这都不一定对，所以我觉得 Marc 说得没错。
Because by the way, the one holdout from, you know, kind of people in the firm on, like, old media as well, except for Washington, they all read this old, you know, stuff, and not even that is true, so I think Marc's right.
对。
Yeah.
马克，你提到过直接面向用户。
Marc, you mentioned going direct.
我们现在确实处于一个直接面向用户的时代。
We're certainly in the era now of going direct.
这感觉像是创始人必备的素质。
It feels like it's table stakes for founders.
不过我聊过不少创始人，他们觉得现在除了日常运营公司，还得兼任公司的发言人，这简直像是多了一份兼职。
But I've talked to a lot of founders who feel that now they have sort of a second job of being the spokesperson for their company on top of running the business day to day.
你甚至可以想到很多伟大的创始人，他们一辈子都在实验室里或盯着电脑工作，这根本不是他们受过训练的方向。
And you can even think of a lot of great founders who spent their lives or careers in a lab or staring at a computer, and this is not what they've been trained in.
所以我很好奇，你们对那些对此不感兴趣、或者不知道从哪儿开始的创始人有什么建议？
So I'm curious both of your advice for founders who maybe are uninterested in doing this or they don't know where to start.
他们非得把这个本事练好吗？
Do they have to get good at it?
还是说有别的办法，能让他们的公司获得应有的关注？
Or are there other paths for them to get their company the attention it serves?
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得这个问题挺棘手的。
So I think this is tricky.
如果你只是说，好吧，传统媒体是怎么运作的，那新媒体又是什么情况？
So if you just go, okay, old media, and how did that work in New Media?
过去传统媒体渠道非常有限，内容形式也很死板，品牌就是公司本身。
So old media, you had very restricted channels with very restricted formats, and the brands were the companies.
所以，大致就是这么个情况。
So like that, that's basically the setup.
如果你想宣传，当然可以找《纽约时报》、CNN之类的媒体。
So yes, you could talk to the New York Times or CNN or whatever, if you wanted to get the word out.
但那时候你只能被剪成一句话的引语，或者一个很短的采访。
But then you were forced into like a quote or a very short interview or something like that.
而且你代表的，是一个跟你本人没关系的品牌。
And then you were representing, a brand that wasn't you.
那时候就是这么运作的。
And that's just kind of how it worked.
所以整个媒体策略就一个目标：尽量把名字打出去，又别把公司形象搞砸了，因为一旦说错话，就再也收不回来了，这也让你不得不处处小心。
And so the whole media strategy basically was just get your name out there without tainting the company to the point where it could never recover, which is kind of how you got into this very defensive posture because you can never take back anything.
这在传统媒体时代特别关键。
That was like a big role in old media.
到了新媒体时代，情况完全反过来了：渠道无限、形式自由，品牌就是你本人。
Then you get to new media and new media is so the opposite in that it's unlimited formats, unlimited channels, and the brand is now the person.
所以根本不是大家在批评SpaceX，每当有民主党人出来发火，他们骂的其实是埃隆，因为他是这个品牌。
So it's not like, were people talking about, like when every Democrat came out and was mad about SpaceX, they weren't, they were mad about Elon, because he's a brand.
就像Palantir，还是说Alex？
And the same thing, it Palantir, or is it Alex?
是Andrew还是Palmer？
And is it Andrew or is it Palmer?
这种事一再发生，屡见不鲜。
And that's just over and over again.
所以现在在营销上成功的公司，品牌就是这个人。
So the companies that are winning in marketing, the brand is the person.
如果你有个联合创始人，或者一个长期在位但不是CEO的人，倒是可以设想让这个人来当这个品牌代言人。
And I guess, like, if you had another founder or somebody who is a really permanent fixture and not the CEO, you could imagine that person kinda getting that person off to be the brand.
但最终，还是得靠一个人。
But it's gonna be a person.
我觉得这根本避不开。
Like, I don't think there's a way around that.
而新媒体的规则是，内容必须有趣，不然就会被淹没。
And then the rule of new media is it has to be interesting, because otherwise it's gonna get drowned out.
所以它必须是一个人，而且这个人还得有趣，这正是传统媒体这么危险的原因——传统媒体的铁律是：别太出风头。
So, it has to be a person, and that person has to be interesting, which is why old media is so dangerous, because the one rule of old media is don't be interesting.
那是最糟糕的事。
That's the worst thing you can do.
你准得把事情搞砸。
You'll F everything up.
所以我觉得，公司根本躲不开这一点。
And so I don't think company can get away without it.
如果我们看我们这家机构，从技术上讲，我才是CEO，但要说品牌形象，我觉得马克更代表我们，因为他做的媒体曝光远比我多。
Now, if you look at us as a firm, technically, I'm really the CEO, but Marc is more the brand, I would say, in terms of he just does way more media than I do.
这招是管用的，但能管用，是因为大家对外头的‘Andreessen Horowitz’这名字才熟悉，外人根本分不清谁是谁。
And that works, but it works because it's Andreessen Horowitz, nobody knows the fucking difference on the outside.
这样就挺好。
It's fine.
你可以把公司这么运作，让外界根本不用了解内部怎么管理。
And you can set up your company that way, where they don't have to know how you're run.
这没问题。
That's fine.
但这个人必须是长期扎根在组织里的。
But it's gotta be somebody who's there forever with the organization.
不能是那种干三年就走的市场副总裁。
It can't be like the vice president of marketing who's here for a three year run and then is gone.
那种方式根本行不通。
Like, that'll never work.
Anzaril 就是另一个例子。
Anzaril's another example.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
我特别喜欢的一件事，大概每周都会发生一次，就是有人跑来恭喜我写了本关于本的书。
One of my favorite things that happens about once a week is when I get somebody congratulates me on writing Ben's book.
而他总是把功劳全揽在自己身上。
Which he always takes full credit for.
没错，我是这么做的。
I do.
对，我确实是这样。
I do.
我当时就想，我真的在这上面倾注了无数的心血。
I was just like, I really poured a lot of my blood, sweat, and tears into it.
我真高兴。
I'm so glad.
我真高兴终于有人去看了。
I'm so glad that somebody finally read it.
所以，你看，我觉得本刚才说的那件事，其实有个技术层面的解释，我觉得这个解释还挺重要的。
So, know, look, so so I think there's a I think there's actually a technological explanation for what Ben said that is actually, I think, quite important.
直到大约20世纪30年代之前，公司根本没有什么企业品牌。
So, up until basically, what was it Ben, like the 1930s or something, companies were not, they didn't have corporate brands.
那时候都是以人命名，比如福特汽车公司。
You had people, it was the Ford Motor Company.
还有爱迪生。
Was the Edison.
爱迪生电气公司，对吧？
Was the Edison Electric Company, right?
那时候就是门上挂个名字那么简单。
So it was like, it was literally name on the door.
我敢肯定，亨利·福特从来没想过给公司起个别的名字，就叫福特汽车公司。
I'm positive, it never occurred to Henry Ford to name his company anything other than Ford Motor Company.
不过在福特汽车公司之前，他不是还开过别的公司吗？
Well, did have a company before the Ford Motor Company, right?
是啊，没错。
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
那家公司叫什么来着？我记不清了，得去查一下。
Which was like, I think, I can't remember, somebody's gotta look it up.
我记得后来好像变成了凯迪拉克之类的。
I think it became Cadillac or something.
那其实是一家坚持下来的汽车公司，但他只是首席技术官，不是首席执行官。他脾气火爆，跟亨利·福特吵得不可开交，最后干脆自己辞职了。
It was actually a car company that lasted, but he was CTO, he wasn't CEO, and he got in such a furious fight because he was a hothead, Henry Ford, with the CEO that he quit his own company.
而且很多人
And a lot
都是克莱斯勒那批人，你知道的，不少汽车品牌都是这样来的。
of those are Chrysler, like Chrysler was those guys, you know, lot of the cars
哦，这些品牌全都是用人名命名的，我觉得可能原本叫福特，他一走，公司就改名了。
Oh, they're all named after themselves, and I think actually maybe it was like Ford, and then when he quit, they renamed it.
说不定真是这样。
That could be it.
对，没错，还有别的例子。
Yeah, yeah, Something else, yeah.
所以公司名字就直接挂上了创始人的名字。
So it like name on the door.
对。
Yeah.
那时候大家觉得这再正常不过了，毕竟公司是这些人在管，本来就应该这么干。但到了三四十年代，开始出现一些大型跨国企业，比如通用电气。
And it was just kind of taken as a given, because that's the guys running the company, that's what you do, and then I think what happened is in the 30s, 40s, you started getting these international machines, General Electric.
通用汽车。
General Motors.
通用汽车。
General Motors.
这时候公司名字开始变得抽象了，接着又出现了消费品牌，像宝洁公司，旗下有汰渍、高露洁、佳洁士，还有可口可乐。
You started getting these abstract names, and then you got the consumer brand thing, you know, with like Procter and Gamble, so you had like Tide and Colgate and Crest Tooth Base and Coca Cola
还有好多这样的品牌。
and all these things.
‘漂亮五十’，还有企业集团盛行的年代，
The nifty fifty, the conglomerate era,
这就催生了 conglomerates，本质上就是尽可能多地收购各种品牌。
Which led to conglomerates, which were basically just piling up as many brands as you could.
我觉得，回头来看，这其实是中央媒体兴起的结果。
And I think what happened was, in retrospect, I think that was because of the rise of centralized media specifically.
因为在1930年以前，媒体是非常分散的。
Because before the 1930s, media was very decentralized.
每个小镇都有十几家报纸。
Every town had 15 newspapers.
到处都是小小的广播电台。
There were tiny little radio stations everywhere.
但从三四十年代开始，媒体急剧集中，这种集中程度在历史上前所未有，可能千年才遇一次。
And then, you know, starting in the thirties or forties, media centralized hard, you know, in a way that was very, know, unprecedented historically, and and and probably once once once once once in a, you know, it's probably once in a thousand year thing that that happened.
中央媒体的特点就是，所有东西都得从一根极细的吸管里挤过去——毕竟，如果只有三个电视网，一天只有24小时，你真正能分到的时间能有多少？
And then the thing with centralized media was just, it's drinking everything through an incredibly narrow straw, because there's just, like, by definition, if there's three TV networks and there's twenty four hours in the day, there's just only ever, like, how much time are you ever gonna get?
或者，如果只有三家大报的头版，你又能拿到多少版面空间？
Or if there's the front page of, you know, three big newspapers, how many column inches are you ever gonna get?
所以，任何公司的信息都得被压缩到极致，才能挤过那根细得可怜的吸管。
And so the message from any company had to get distilled down to the absolute minimum to be able to get through those very narrow straws.
我觉得这就是企业品牌现象的本质——把品牌浓缩成一个最小的原子单位，好塞进那根吸管里。后来大家就以为这本来就是世界运行的唯一方式，但其实，这只有在那个时代才说得通。
I think that was the corporate brand phenomenon, which is to get the thing down to like an atomic unit of a brand to be able to get it through that straw, and then everybody became convinced that like that was just universally the way the world worked, but I think that only actually made sense.
企业作为一个抽象的品牌，或者说 corporate brand，这种模式只在媒体高度集中的时代才成立。现在，随着那个媒体集中化的时代正在瓦解、崩塌，从机制上讲，这正是为什么新方法开始奏效、变得必不可少的原因。
So company as an abstract brand with like, or corporate brand, like, I think that only made sense in the centralized media world, and I think what we're seeing, as the centralized media world is now, you know, unwinding and collapsing, I think mechanically, that's why this new approach is working and is necessary because that's why.
因为在新的世界里，举个例子吧，你想想，总统候选人现在难道不都得上乔·罗根的节目吗？在2024年之前，答案绝对是不用。
Because in the new world, I mean, you know, the many examples of this, but it's just like, you know, do do people running for president have to go on Joe Rogan, right, and, you know, up until 2024, the answer was absolutely not.
但2024年之后，答案就是百分之百必须上。
After 2024, the answer is 100% they have to.
对吧？
Right?
说白了，民主党内部复盘2024年败选时，很大一部分人认为，关键问题就是科玛没上罗根的节目。
Like, big part, you know, for keeping politics out of it, a big part of all the Democratic retrospectives of what happened in '24 was that Comma didn't go on Rogan.
现在，这个圈子里的每个人都知道，下一位候选人必须上罗根的节目，而且一上就是三个小时，什么话题都得聊。
100% of the people who work in that world now think that the next person is gonna have to go on Rogan, and to go on Rogan means you're gonna have to on Rogan for three hours, and you're gonna have to talk about anything.
所以你想想，这对任何想参选的人——不管哪个党派，或者多个党派——来说，现在这就是新的标准。
And so if you think about what that means, right, for the bar, for the person who's gonna run for whatever party, or for both parties, or any party, that's the new bar.
你必须得能做到这一点。
You have to be able to do that.
对吧。
Right.
你得有意思才行。
Have to be interesting.
这又回到了你之前的问题。
Then it goes right back to your question.
你得是那个能搞定这个的人。
You have to be the person who can do that.
如果你不是这样的人，那……
And if you're not the person who can do that, like
这可是个巨大的营销短板。
Well, it's a big marketing deficit.
这么说吧。
Let's put it that way.
我觉得你这是给自己设了上限。
You just put a ceiling on your whole opportunity, I think.
根据你刚才的问题，继承顺序这条线当然避不开——要是你连两头大象都骑不住，那你进马戏团干嘛？
The line from succession, of course, I I can't avoid can't not use based on your question is is it should've said, if you can't ride two elephants at the same time, what are you doing in the circus?
我很想听听你是怎么把这种思路用在自己的工作中的。
I I would love to hear how you apply this thinking to your own work.
本，你之前提到过，你和马克经常花很多时间讨论，什么时候该公开回应，什么时候该保持沉默。
Ben, you mentioned earlier or you've mentioned before that you and Marc spend a lot of time discussing how and when to respond to things publicly and also when to not say anything.
所以我很好奇，你们俩平时是怎么讨论这些的？
And so I'm curious what those discussions are like for you both.
你们是怎么决定什么时候该反击，什么时候该沉默的？
How do you decide when to fight back versus stay quiet?
有没有哪些时候，你们事后觉得当初要是换种做法会更好？
And maybe if there are times that you wish you did things differently.
是的。
Yeah.
所以呢，有意思的是，只要有人对我们说些负面的话，我们就想立刻回应。
So I mean, it's interesting with that because any time somebody says something negative about us, we wanna respond.
但你得想清楚，这么做真能提升你的处境吗？还是说对方根本就是在设陷阱，引你上钩，好让你帮他们放大那些荒唐的观点。
It's just like, but you have to determine whether that's gonna improve your position, or they're just feeding you bait to get you to basically highlight their stupid opinion.
其实，一味地反击从来不会让情况变好，他总是100%想立刻回击。
It'll always improve your situation to push Yeah, he always 100% wants to go back at a minute.
你得有自制力，不然你这一生就光忙着回应别人了。
You you have to have some discipline, otherwise you just will spend your whole life responding.
你越有名，找上门来的人就越多。
The bigger you get, the more people come at you.
最极端的例子，就是那些在推特底下留言的人。
It's kind of like the degenerate version is like dealing with the people who comment on Twitter.
或者说是X平台，抱歉。
Or X, sorry.
如果你开始回复那些只有五十个粉丝的人在X上的评论，顺便说一句，我父亲以前总是这么做。
So if you start answering the X replies of people who have 50 followers, by the way, my father always did that.
这纯粹是浪费时间，你还在帮一个根本没有观众的人扩大影响力，那你到底在干嘛？
Then it's just like a colossal waste of time, and you're amplifying somebody who has no audience, so what are you doing?
这些人根本没资格跟你说话。
And then those people shouldn't even be talking to you.
他们这辈子没干过什么值得跟你对话的事，可你却在跟他们纠缠，浪费自己的时间。
They didn't do anything in life to have the right to talk to you, but there you are talking to them and wasting your time.
这就是最极端的低级版本。
So that's the extreme degenerate case.
但如果有人突然发声，正好击中了你，而且针对的是你，那这反而是个提升品牌的好机会，让你能表达自己的观点和立场。
However, if somebody comes out with something and it hits, and it's going after you, that's actually a real opportunity to boost the brand, to come across with your own point of view, your own position.
这可能是媒体上的事，也可能是新媒介上某个人做的某件事，最后反而成了真正的契机。
And this could be something in the media or just something somebody does in new media, that actually turns into a real opportunity.
所以，我们品牌建设的很大一部分，其实都是回应那些攻击我们的人。
So a lot of, I would say, a reasonable portion of the brand that we built was just responding to people attacking us.
我每次都把这看作绝佳的机会，觉得太好了，那就干吧。
Always saw that, every time that happened, as great, let's go.
我写过最得意的一篇帖子就是关于 Instagram 的。
One of my favorite things I ever wrote was Instagram.
当时因为 Instagram 的事，我和《纽约时报》闹了一场风波。
We got into this kerfuffle over Instagram with the New York Times.
我们之间确实有冲突，反正就是那么回事，但我回应之后，那成了我当时阅读量最高的一篇帖子，大家都说：对，去他的《纽约时报》。
We had a conflict, whatever, it was a thing, but then I responded, and it was like the biggest, at that time, the biggest post I ever wrote, and everybody was like, Yeah, fuck that New York Times.
所以就这么一下子，我们的品牌从这儿直接跃升到了那儿，因为大家都爱看热闹。
And so it kind of took us from here to here in one shot, just because everybody loves a fight.
所以吵架对打造品牌是有好处的，但你得挑对仗，不然就是在帮别人做宣传。
So fights are good for brand building, but you've gotta pick the right fight to not just build somebody else's brand.
说到这儿，我刚开始加入的时候，每次看到那些负面推文，我都会提出来，说：嘿。
Well, to that end, I, you know, picking the battles, when I first joined, I would bring up these negative tweets we were getting and say, hey.
你知道的，那些都在说我们坏话，而你们总是无所谓的样子。
You know, these are saying bad things about us, and you guys would be like, who cares?
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这其实说明我们成功了，因为越成功，越多人会说我们的坏话。
Like, this is in fact, part of our success means we're gonna have more and more people who are saying negative things.
所以。
So
具体来说，他们批评的是我们投资的项目，然后就开始说，整个事件就是……
Well, specifically, they were saying things based on the things that we were funding, and then they were like, you know, the whole moment
你只是在投一些无关紧要的东西。
You're was just funding slap.
你投的都是些不痛不痒的玩意儿。
You're funding slap.
咱们投项目，这本身是件好事。
It's like, bro, it's great that we're funding things.
没错。
Yes.
在这个世界上，还有什么比把有钱人的钱，转移到有想法、想干事的人手里更好的事呢？
Even if you think that, what is better in this world than the transfer of wealth from people who have a lot of money to people who have ideas and wanna build something?
即使我们全错了，这对人类来说仍然是好事。
Even if we're wrong about everything, that's still good for humanity.
别理那些喷子。
Shut up to you hater
对。
Yes.
一群傻子。
Idiots.
喷子的援助。
Hater aid.
所以，我当时就回绝了。
So, yeah, and then, know, my response was no.
因为资助初创公司、支持创业者而遭到批评，这其实特别棒。
That's a great thing to get criticized for is for funding startups and supporting those startups.
这简直太好了。
Like, that's fantastic.
有个
There's a
这里面其实有个关键点，也反映了新媒体的一个重要变化：你希望有人恨你，也希望有人爱你，但绝对不能让人觉得你无足轻重。
kind of point within that that is also kind of an important change in new media, which is you really want people to hate you, and you want people to love you, but you don't want to be neutral.
你不能模棱两可，不然就没人感兴趣。
You don't want to be lukewarm because then you're uninteresting.
你不可能既有趣又不招来两极化的反应，因为这世界嫉妒和仇恨太多了，不管你做什么，只要一出名，这些就必然跟着来。
So you're only You can't be interesting and not have people both hate you and love you, just because there's too much No matter what you do, there's too much jealousy and just hate rate in the world to not have it beat out, because as soon as you get big, that's what happens.
以前有人对我们写的东西生气，我就说，你想想，有谁会给鲁珀特·默多克或者埃隆·马斯克写篇吹捧文章吗？这种事再也不会发生了。
There's nobody I used to When people used to get upset about things that were written about us, was like, nobody writes a puff piece on Rupert Murdoch or Elon Musk or It's never gonna happen again.
早就结束了。
It's over.
只要你够大，别人就会恨你。
When you get to a certain size, people hate you.
但这反而是好事，说明你真的成功了。
And that's good, because that means you did it.
你做了一件重要的事。
You did something important.
你在世界上留下了印记。
You made a mark on the world.
人们关心你正在做的事。
People care about what you're doing.
你得这么看才行。
And you have to take it that way.
如果你为了讨好别人就停手，那你的营销就毁了。
If you take it like, oh, I gotta stop doing that so people like me, you'll ruin your marketing.
对。
Yeah.
马尔克，既然我提到了，他们确实都找对了敌人。
Marc, since I've said the term, they have all the right enemies.
关键是要选对那些讨厌你的人，这样才能激发人们真正喜欢你的地方——在新媒体时代，该怎么组建一支出色的营销和媒体团队？
So it's picking the right people to hate you that galvanizes the people What to love about building the right marketing and media team in the age of new media?
你们对CEO们有什么建议，怎么才能招到合适的人才？
What you guys learned, or what advice do you have for CEOs in terms of making sure you get the right personnel?
你觉得组建这样的团队，核心原则是什么？
What's the principle you think about building that team?
首先，如果你是传统媒体出身，想转做新媒体会非常非常困难。
Well, the first principle is if you're trained in old media, it's very, very, very hard to do new media.
你得是个特别出众的人，才能完成这种转变，因为如果你已经做了十年传统媒体，那里面有一套固有的规律。
So you have to be a very exceptional person to make that transition because it's like, if you spent ten years doing old media, there are laws of physics.
有一套游戏规则。
There are rules of the game.
从筛选记者，到应对粗鲁的问答，方方面面都有固定的做法。
There's things that you do every single time in terms of, you know, from vetting reporters to rude Q and As to this and that.
整个体系完全是颠倒的。
Like, everything about it is opposite world.
所以，能真正意识到‘我要跳出这套颠倒的体系，进入新媒体世界’的人，少之又少。
And so, there are very few people who can go, okay, I'm getting out of opposite world, and I'm going into a new media world.
所以在做新媒体这块时，千万别招太多只懂传统媒体的人。
So you just have to be careful about, for the new media side of what you're doing, to hire too much experience in not new media.
看着像营销，其实完全不是一回事。
It looks like marketing, but it's not the same.
这是全新的技能体系，我觉得这最值得警惕。
It's a completely new skill set, so I would say that's probably the thing that I'd worry about the most.
就像请Erik加入时，我们最看重的，是你有没有亲自做过新媒体。
And then, like with Erik, what we'd look for when we brought you on, for example, is the best thing on new media is have you done it?
你有没有在某个领域打造过自己的品牌和受众？
Have you kind of built some brand on something and some audience?
你懂不懂怎么去积累观众？
Do you know how to build an audience?
因为这才是最核心、最根本的东西。
Because that's the core, core thing.
如果你连这个都做不到，其他技能再强也没用。
And if you can't do that, it doesn't matter if you've got this skill, and that skill, and the other skill.
你必须能从头到尾把事情搞定。
You have to be able to deliver it end to end.
对，我们招的人，比如亚历克斯·丹科、亨利或者布伦特，他们可能是产品经理、创始人或投资人，但他们都对讨论内容特别着迷。
Yeah, and in terms of people we've brought on, like Alex Danko, or Henry, or Brent, they 're product managers or founders or investors, but they were obsessed with the discourse.
他们一直在听这个播客。
They were listening to the podcast.
他们自己也会写东西。
They were writing themselves.
即使没亲自做，你也能看出他们的实际能力。
You could tell them the proof of work even though they weren't doing
那件事。
the thing.
是的，你们新媒体团队里讲故事的能力，这点说得真好。
Yeah, so storytelling on your new media team, that's such a good point.
亚历克斯之所以这么厉害，是因为他是个顶级的故事讲述者。
So the reason why Alex is so good is he's a world class storyteller.
所以，先别管营销这一套了。
So forget, just take marketing out of it for a second.
你能讲出一个让人想读、想听的故事吗？
Can you put together a story that somebody wants to read or listen to or whatever?
这确实是一门真本事，而顶尖水平和普通水平之间的差距大得惊人。
And that's a real skill, And the elite level of that is way higher than the average level of that.
那些不会讲的人，永远都学不会这种本事。
And the people who can't do it, by the way, can never do it like that.
很多来自传统营销领域的人根本没有这能力，因为他们一直依赖老板、CEO或者其他什么人来提供故事。
And many people from kind of old marketing world don't have that skill because always would rely on whatever the principal, the CEO, somebody for that story.
但如果你能组建一个拥有多个优秀故事高手的团队，那简直就是加了倍的战斗力。
But if you can build a team that's got multiple storytellers that are good, that's a huge power boost.
顺便说一句，这里有个很大的脱节。
By the way, there's a really big disconnect.
这其实又回到了真实性这个问题上。
It goes back to the authenticity point.
媒体圈的人对这件事的理解存在巨大偏差，因为每个记者听到我们这么说，都会觉得只有两种东西：
There's a really big disconnect in how people in the kind of media sort of think about this, because every reporter listening to what we're saying would be like, oh, there's only two things.
一种是新闻，一种是宣传。
There's journalism, there's propaganda.
主流媒体和传统媒体做的是新闻，但只要你做点直接相关的东西，他们就说是宣传，说白了就是营销，就是想卖点什么。
And the and the mainstream press, traditional press does journalism, and if you're doing any kind of, like, direct anything, it's propaganda, and, you know, it's quote unquote, it's just marketing, it's just trying to, you know, kinda sell something.
我们完全不认同这种划分，而且这里面还有个批评点：我觉得现在的媒体根本做不了他们自己说的那种客观新闻了。但积极的一面是，这恰恰说明了为什么真实性这么重要——你得让别人真正了解你是谁。
And, like, I would say that's a division distinction that we 100% don't agree with, and there's a critique aspect of it, which is I don't think the press does much, you know, what even they would describe as objective journalism anymore, but the positive side of it is I think it goes right back one of the reasons you wanna be authentic is because you want to actually have people understand who you are.
你得让别人清楚你做什么，也明白你做这些事的背景和语境。
You wanna have people actually understand what you do, and you want people to actually understand the context within which you're doing what you're doing.
所以你得主动解释自己，也得解释这个世界。
So you want to actually explain yourself, and you wanna explain the world.
我们说的故事，根本不是编出来的虚构故事，而是讲清楚真实正在发生的事。
When we talk about storytelling, it's very much not storytelling like a made up story, it's storytelling of here's what's actually happening.
用一种有张力、有开头有结尾的方式，让人愿意一直听下去。
In an interesting way, with tension, with a beginning and an end, you know, that somebody is interested in falling the whole way.
是的，没错。
Yeah, that's right.
所以，结果就是，当本和我走在街上时，经常有人过来跟我们说：‘我看了你们的播客，看了那个采访，读了你们公司发的那篇文章，等等。’
And so, as a consequence, we really look for this, like, when Ben and I get stuffed on the street, we routinely get told, Oh, wow, I watched the podcast, I saw this interview, I read that post, this or that, from the firm.
而且每次他们都会说：‘太棒了，’
And 100% of time, they're like, Wow, that was great.
我真正明白了这个话题在讲什么。
I really understand what that topic is about.
对吧？
Right?
这种反应非常真实、合理、积极，也特别有价值，正是因为我们一直真诚、正面、认真地在做这些事。
And that's a very honest and legitimate and positive and worthwhile reaction to very honest, positive, legitimate action on our part.
我觉得，再换个角度说，这不只是建议大家该去做的事。
And I just think, again, I maybe put the other the other way to put this is this isn't just something people should do.
我认为，对我们这一行、对现在的科技圈的人来说，这更是一种责任——因为眼下科技领域的变化太深刻了，外人根本很难理解，特别复杂，信息又满天飞，所以真正诚实地讲清楚到底发生了什么，就拿我们团队来说吧。
This is, I think, a responsibility that for people in our world and people in tech now to do, which is, like, the changes that are happening mean, of all times, the changes that are happening in tech right now are are profound, and they're really hard to understand from the outside, and they're really complicated, and there's huge amounts of noise in the environment, and so actually explaining honestly what's actually going on, and I'll just on our team.
今天我们发了一篇关于SpaceX的文章，虽然上面署了我的名字，但我根本没参与写作。
We put a SpaceX post up today, which although it has my name on it, I had nothing to do with writing.
这文章跟我一点关系都没有，我完全不配领功。
I I cannot take any credit for it.
我们已经收到不少反馈，都说这是迄今为止写得最好的一篇关于SpaceX的文章，我觉得这话一点不夸张。
And it it I I I mean, the feedback we're already getting is it's the best thing anybody's ever written on SpaceX, and I and I think that's true.
它真的把事情的真相清清楚楚地讲明白了，我为此特别自豪。
And it and it and it literally is it lays out, like, the actual truth, and I I'm really proud of that.
太棒了。
That's awesome.
我想最后再深入聊聊给创始人的一些建议，关于直接沟通这件事。
I wanna close with some going deeper on some advice for for founders on on on going direct.
Gaby，我先听你说。
Gaby, I'll start with you.
你见过CEO们常犯的错误有哪些？
What are some mistakes that you see CEOs Yeah.
有哪些该避免的错误？
Making and things to avoid?
我跟很多创始人合作过，发现有两个常见错误，而且它们是相关的。
I would say there's there's two mistakes that I commonly saw working with founders, and they're sort of related.
第一个错误是，很容易就会陷入这种情况。
The first one is it can be very easy to do this too.
这很容易上瘾，因为时间表看起来太有吸引力了。
It's a trap to fall into because the timeline feels so addicting.
但很多创始人还没把核心信息打磨好，就急着去搞推广和手段。
But a lot of founders really over index on distribution and tactics before actually getting the message right.
推广其实只是对信息的放大器。
Distribution is really just a multiplier on the message.
如果信息本身错了，那你放大了的可能是跟业务无关的内容，或者根本不是受众想听的东西。
And so if the message is wrong, now you've amplified something that is either irrelevant for your business or not the thing that your audience needs to hear.
或者像我们之前说的，更糟的是，内容无聊透顶。
Or like as we've talked about, maybe worst of all, it's uninteresting.
现在你告诉所有人，你其实一点都不吸引人。
And now you've told everybody that you care about that you're not very interesting.
实际上，很多创始人会来找我们，问怎么才能爆红。
So in practice, a lot of founders would come to us and say, you know, how do we go viral?
或者怎么才能上乔·罗根的节目？
Or how do we get on Joe Rogan?
但你仔细想想，就算上了乔·罗根的节目，也有可能说错了重点。
And if you actually think about it, you could get on Joe Rogan and then not say the right thing.
这可能是最糟糕的情况了。
And this is maybe the worst thing ever.
这一点很重要，因为它不仅适用于传统媒体，也适用于新媒体。
And this is important because it applies not just to old media but to new media.
对吧？
Right?
你也可以上彭博社或者福克斯，但照样把信息搞砸。
Like you could go on Bloomberg or Fox and get the message wrong.
在新媒体或者直接触达用户的时候，也可能犯同样的错误。
And you could also do the same thing with New Media or going direct.
所以第一个错误就是没有花足够的时间去把核心信息打磨到位。
And so the the first mistake is not actually spending the time to get the message right.
而这恰恰是杠杆效应最大、最关键的一环。
And that's the highest leverage most important thing to get right.
接下来，我想第二个错误就是没想清楚具体该怎么去执行。
And then from there, I guess the next mistake is actually just figuring out how to do that.
我观察到的一点是，如果你过于关注投入的过程，而忽略了想要达成的结果或产出，就很容易把信息传达错。
And the way that I saw that is you can get the message wrong if you focus too much on the inputs as opposed to the outputs or the outcomes that you wanna drive towards.
这听起来有点矛盾，因为那些非常成功的公司反而最容易被这个问题困扰，毕竟关于你的公司，有太多有趣的话题可以聊了。
And this is sort of paradoxical because the companies that are very successful struggle with this the most because there are a lot of interesting things that you could say about your company.
对吧？
Right?
毕竟里程碑事件那么多。
There's like so many milestones.
这个使命真的很吸引人。
The mission is really compelling.
你想说的东西太多了。
There's like a lot of different things that you would want to say.
但根据你想要达成的目标，你应该说的内容可能不一样，对吧？
But depending on what you're trying to achieve, the thing that you wanna say should probably be different, right?
所有事情都可能是真的，但不都对你的业务有相关性或战略意义。
Just because everything is true doesn't mean it's all relevant or strategic for your business.
所以别一上来就堆砌所有你能想到的内容，搞得一团乱。
And so instead of starting with the inputs of here's this huge mess of everything that we could say.
别指望随便说一通，然后希望别人记住你认为最有趣的部分——可你连那部分都还没搞清楚。
Let's just say it all right now and hope people remember potentially the thing that we think is most interesting, but we haven't identified that thing.
先从目标出发。
Start with the outcome.
对吧？
Right?
我们想卖给哪一类企业客户？
Do we want to sell to a certain type of enterprise customer?
我们想招哪一类工程师，他们对我们和我们在市场中的角色有怎样的看法？
Do we want to hire a certain type of engineer who believes a certain thing about us and our role in the market?
这样你就可以从这里倒推了。
So now you can kind of work backwards from there.
我们知道这些人是谁。
Like we know who these people are.
我们知道他们相信什么。
We know what they believe.
我们知道他们可能相信或需要相信关于我们的一些事情。
We know what they probably believe or need to believe about us.
我们也知道在他们的语境中，哪些话题是紧迫、及时且贴近他们的。
And we know what feels in the discourse urgent and timely and personal to them.
然后我们就能反过来把信息打磨准确。
And then we can work backwards and get the message right.
所以回到第一点，把这一点和强大的渠道结合起来，你就有了一个非常成功的策略。
And so then going back to point one, you pair that with really powerful distribution, and then you have a really winning strategy.
顺便说一句，加比刚才提到的这一点，其实直接决定了你该怎么组建团队。
And by the way, so a really important point in what Gaby said is that really determines how you have to put the team together.
如果你组的团队根本听不懂你的信息、没法和你对上话，那你就等于自己坑了自己。
Because if you put together a team that you can't have a conversation with where you're listening on your message and what you're saying, then you've kinda done yourself a disservice.
你得让团队在出去推广之前，先帮你把故事打磨好，因为光靠营销人员硬推一个空洞的信息，听起来容易，其实很难。
You need the team to help make the story great before they go, because it's real easy to go, okay, market this empty There are a few marketers who could probably do that, but it's hard.
所以你最希望的是，团队真正认同这个信息，这样你后续所有传播版本都会自然到位、精准有力。
So you really want the team to be invested in the message, and then all the variations you need to distribute that message are gonna be really good and on point.
但如果团队对信息本身没有自己的看法，那就太难了。
But if the team doesn't have an opinion on message, that's very difficult.
马尔克，上周我们和增长型投资组合公司开会时提到一点，像亚历克斯·卡尔、帕尔默、埃隆这些人，让人佩服的是，他们不只关注自己在做什么，还能跳出来说清楚世界正在发生什么，把自己的理念、公司、产品放在更大的背景下解释。
Marc, one of the things we said in that meeting with the growth portfolio company the other week was what you admire about people like Alex Karp or Palmer or Elon or others is the ability to not just focus on what they're doing, but also go outside in and talk about what's happening in the world, and how do they situate their worldview, their company, their product, etcetera, within that.
你能不能聊聊这个原则，人们是怎么练出这种能力的？
Why don't you talk a little bit about that principle, and how do people get good at it?
对，最常见的风投营销故事就是：我认识了一个特别棒的创始人，我们一起散步，然后我打了八次电话给他，觉得他真不错，最后终于说服他赚钱了。
Yeah, so the most common VC marketing story is, oh, I met this great founder, and we went on a walk, and then I called him eight times, and I thought he was great, and I eventually convinced him to make money.
最常见的创业故事是：我们是个全新的公司。
The most common start up story is, oh, we're a brand new company.
我们士气高涨。
We're all fired up.
随时准备出发。
We're ready to go.
一定会大获成功。
It's gonna be great.
我们有新产品。
We have new products.
我们希望你能试试看——说实话，这些故事听得人真想一头撞墙上。
We hope you try And I mean, those stories just make you wanna stab yourself in the neck, right?
简直太无聊了，全世界最没劲的故事莫过于此。
It's just like, oh my God, it's just the lamest story in the world.
顺便说一句，细节很重要，好的讲故事的人总是能抓住关键细节。
By the way, details, one of the keys on this is good storytellers have great details.
细节真的特别重要。
Details matter a lot.
Marc那套说法最让人反感的就是毫无细节，满嘴都是‘我多牛啊’这种空话。
And so the one thing about Marc's thing that makes it so horrible is like, no details, just like, blah blah blah, I'm so great.
我和那位创始人聊过，他挺喜欢我的。
I talked to the founder, he really liked me.
你大概也会喜欢我。
You'll probably really like me too.
谁在乎啊？
Like, who cares?
他们那种语气，简直像是假装谦虚，对吧？
Almost this And thing where they come across as like fake humble, right?
因为就是那种，哎呀……
Because it's just like, oh,
对不起。
I'm sorry.
他们总说，我感到很荣幸。
And they say, I'm humbled by.
这简直是世界上最虚伪的谦虚了。
That's the most fake humble thing in the world.
我感到很荣幸。
I'm humbled by.
你根本一点都不觉得荣幸。
You're not even remotely humbled.
这太糟糕了，而且还有很多别的批评。
It's just the worst, and there's a whole bunch of critiques.
这其实就是假模假样地炫耀。
It's fake bragging.
无聊透顶。
It's boring.
这纯粹是自恋，还带着点阴阳怪气。
It's egocentric to no purpose, and it's passive aggressive.
而且根本分不清谁是谁。
And then it's just indistinguishable.
这种事到处都是。
There's just a thousand.
每个初创公司都这样。
It's every single startup.
每个公司都
It's every single
人人都能盯着自己的肚脐眼发呆，对吧？
Everybody can gaze at their navel, right?
谁都做得到。
Everybody can do that.
没人做不到这事，所以这根本算不上什么独特的故事。
There's nobody who can't do that, so that's not a differentiated story.
是的。
Yeah.
所以这就是人们自然而然陷入的那种叙事模式。
And so and and so that's, like, the default kinda narrative that people fall into.
而且总觉得，做比这更大的事好像有点自大，可我们又能去讲什么更大的故事呢？我甚至都不知道那会是什么。
And then and then it also, like, it feels I think it actually feels like doing anything bigger than that is, like, arrogant because it's just, where are we to, like, go tell some bigger thing, and I don't even know what the bigger thing would be?
那些讲更大故事的人，是不是其实也在刻意把自己捧得更高？
And, like, aren't the people who tell a bigger thing fall themselves and trying to make themselves look even bigger?
所以大家就是特别不愿意把视野再拉得更广一点。
And so there's just this, like, really reluctance to kind of expand the, you know, kind of expand the expand the expand the telescope out.
但我常跟人说，恰恰相反，你和你的初创公司本身并不自带吸引力，但几乎肯定有一个与你公司相关的、特别有意思的故事——这其实是个秘诀：那个故事其实是世界上正在发生的另一件大事，而你的公司恰好跟它有关。
So but what I always tell people is, like, the exact opposite of of of all of that is true, which is, like the story of you and your startup is not inherently an interesting story, but there is almost certainly an interesting story that involves your startup, and that story is, and this is sort of the cheat code of it, the story is something else in the world that's happening that is incredibly interesting that your company relates to.
顺便说一句，把这套玩法玩到极致的是亚历克斯·卡普。
And then he, by the way, the grand wizard of this is Alex Karp.
如果你看他那些访谈，他从来不提Palantir这家公司。
If you watch his interviews, he never talks about Palantir.
他提到Palantir的时候，唯一说过的就是‘本体论’和‘协调’这两个词——没人懂Palantir到底做什么，但也没关系，因为大家一听到‘美国军方的未来，Palantir’，就都明白了。
The only thing he ever says about Palantir, Marc pointed this out to me, is ontology and orchestration, two words that nobody knows what they nobody knows what Palantir does as a result, but it doesn't matter because it's like, you know, the future of the US military, Palantir.
比如超级智能，Palantir。
Like super intelligence, Palantir.
不管什么话题够劲爆，Alex都会去讲那个故事。
Like whatever the story is that's really good, Alex will go tell that story.
神经多样性。
Neuro divergence.
他只要一碰到有意思的话题就立刻接过去讲，而因为他本身就是Palantir的创始人兼CEO，这种做法反而特别管用。
He's just like, whatever is interesting, he'll just start talking about, and then because he's the founder of Palantir, the CEO of Palantir, like that just works.
我说这话的意思是，这其实是个特别聪明的策略。
And I say it like, kind of, like, it's really a good strategy.
他现在是把这招用到极致了，但核心思路没错：找到一个最吸引人的大故事，把你公司自然地嵌进去，然后讲这个故事。
Now he takes it to the very extreme, but that's the right idea, to find the most interesting story that you can plug your company into, and then tell that story.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Right.
因为一旦发生什么事——比如世界上出了什么大事，涉及美军、AI在军事上的应用，或者中美地缘政治之类的，他总是第一个被打电话找的人。
Because what happens is then when something happens, right, when something happens in the world, something happens involving US military, AI in the military, this or that, geopolitics in China, like, he's like the first phone call.
对吧？
Right?
因为他一直都在外面讲这些话题。
Because he's like, he's the guy who's like been out there talking about that.
通过
By the
顺便说一下，Ryan Peterson就在台下。
way, Ryan Peterson is in the audience.
他在这件事上做得非常出色。
He's done a phenomenal job of that.
在这方面特别在行。
Incredibly good at that.
没错。
Exactly.
对。
Yes.
对。
Yes.
谈货运和谈全球供应链的区别在疫情期间彻底模糊了，我们都快饿死了。
The difference between talking about freight versus talking about the global supply chain is completely collapsing during COVID, and we're all gonna starve to death.
所以他就是那个能在一小时内向全世界解释：没错，我们真的要饿死了的人。
And therefore, he's the guy who literally goes in sixty minutes explain to the world that in fact, yes, we are we all are about to starve to death.
从直升机上吗？
From the helicopter, right?
是的，就是这样。
Is is that yes.
从直升机上。
From the from the helicopter.
是的。
Yes.
看看那些一直靠不了岸的船。
Look at all those ships that are never landing.
你的孩子就要饿肚子了。
Your your children are about to starve.
买Flexport吧。
Buy Flexport.
所以它效果非常好。
So so it works incredibly well.
然后另一个
And then the other
你甚至都不用说要买Flexport。
And you don't even have to say buy Flexport.
事情自然就成了。
It just happens.
这是不言而喻的。
It's it's implicit.
这是不言而喻的。
It's implicit.
还有一点，尤其是对企业客户来说，只要是涉及企业销售的——比如Flexport，还有Palantir——关键就在于你有没有资格去见客户的CEO。
And then and then the the other thing, especially especially for enterprise, anything involving enterprise sales, which is certainly Flexport but also Palantir, is just like a big part of it is, are you important enough to, like, meet with the CEO of your customer?
你有没有资格接触到决策者？
Like, are are you important enough to get in the room with a decision maker?
你有没有资格去见国防部长？
Are you are you important enough to meet with the secretary of war?
你有没有资格走进白宫？
Are you important enough to, like, be in the White House?
你有没有资格和《财富》500强的CEO坐在一起？
Are you important enough to be with Fortune 500 CEOs?
我知道，我有个小创业公司，做的是些有意思的事，但不搞这些。不过我对那些影响全局的大事特别着迷，你也看到我总在聊这些大事，以及它们和我们能提供的解决方案之间的关联——这简直让人无法抗拒。
And you know, I just, I have a, you know, I have a little startup that's doing interesting things, does not do that, but I am attached to, and you have seen me talk about like the big important things that are happening in the world and how they relate, and that you have, know, potentially an answer to it, like that's absolute catnip.
每个人都很想要这个。
Like, every every everybody everybody wants that.
所以，我怎么描述呢，关键就在于别总想着从自己和公司、产品出发，往外推。
And so, yeah, so the way I describe this is just, you know, the the the trick kind of is don't don't everybody just naturally thinks inside out, me and my company and my product out into the world.
别这么想。
Don't think that way.
要反过来想，世界上正在发生哪些最有趣的事，然后这些事跟我们有什么关系。
Think in terms of, like, what are the most interesting things happening in the world, and then how do those things relate to us.
顺便说一句，CEO们常常在这里栽跟头，因为他们太专注于自己的事，满脑子只想讲自己的故事，根本没留意外界发生了什么——这也能理解，毕竟你得拼命把公司做起来。
And by the way, this is where CEOs go off the rails, because they're so focused on what they're doing, that all they wanna do is tell their story, and they're not even paying attention to what's going on in the world, which is understandable because you're trying to build something.
但做市场推广时，花时间去了解外界动态，是至关重要的。
But to do the marketing exercise, investing and understanding what's happening out there is just critically important.
没有这一点，根本做不下去。
You can't do it without that.
顺便说，投资关系领域也常出现这种情况。
This, by the way, happens also to investor relations.
每家公司，你知道的，所有上市公司依法都要提交这些文件，S-1、K-1、Q，各种报告。
So every company, you know, every public company by law does these, you know, s one, k one, q whatever, q.
他们花整整一年的时间，投入大量精力去准备这些材料。
They they do all these things, and they, like, fully have a year, you know, spend all this time and all this effort.
这些文件、这些申报材料，把公司的一切都解释得清清楚楚，还把所有可能的免责条款都写得明明白白，那些对人物和事件的描述简直太详尽了，还有年度信件，全都一应俱全。
And these these documents, these filings fully explain everything the company does, and they have every possible, you know, hedge in mea culpa, and I'll I'll just, these incredible descriptions of people and then and then the the annual letters and and and all this stuff.
你知道吗？在Palantir的投资者里，有多少人读过S-1或者K-1？大概不到十万分之一。
What percentage of the investors in, you know, Palantir have read the S1, Like, K1, 0.0001%.
那有多少人看过Alex在YouTube上做内容呢？
What percentage have seen Alex on YouTube doing his thing?
对，就是这样。
Exactly.
百分之百。
You know, 100.
没错，而且写这份文件花的时间真不少。
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and the amount of time that goes into that document.
所以你只需要花点时间，多了解这个世界，就能讲出一个好故事。
And so you just take that time and just understand enough about the world to put together a good story.
说到这儿，我想强调一点：这种能力并不是天生就有或没有的。
On that note, we'll end with this idea that this skill set is not only something you're born with or not.
它是可以培养、学习和提升的。
It can be developed and learned and cultivated.
马克，你前几天说，回头看亚历克斯·卡尔早年的采访，风格完全不同。
Marc, you were saying the other day that when you look back at Alex Karp's old interviews, they're very different.
当你回头看亚历克斯、帕尔默、埃隆、莱恩或者早前来的阿姆贾德，翻翻他们过去的推文或采访，你会发现他们和现在差得太远了。
And so when you look at Alex or Palmer or Elon or Ryan or Amjad, who came here earlier, you look back at their old tweets or their old interviews, and they're nowhere close to where they were.
确实如此。
Oh, yeah.
这绝对是一种技能。
It's a skill set for sure.
有些人天生有天赋，有些人则弱一些，你要是看看八十年代唐纳德·特朗普的采访，那完全是老派媒体的风格。
And, like, there there are people who are gifted and then people who are less if you look at Donald Trump's interviews in the eighties, they're very old media interviews.
他其实挺克制的。
He's actually restrained.
不好意思。
Sorry.
后来他确实摸清了新媒体的门道，总是特别有趣、有看头，这正是他受欢迎的秘诀。
And then, you know, like, he did figure out new media, and he's always, like, super entertaining and interesting, which is kind of the the magic of his of his popularity.
所以，哪怕到了那个层次，也是可以练出来的。
So even, like, at that level, you can develop it.
对。
Yep.
说到这儿，正好可以收尾了。
Well, on that note, it's a great place to wrap.
请大家为加比·贝尼马特鼓掌。
Please give a round of applause for Gaby Benimart.
谢谢。
Thank you.
谢谢
Thanks
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