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现在世界的一个挑战是，我们显然生活在一个比十年前或十五年前更不和平、更不安全的世界里。
One of the challenges of the world right now is that we're definitely in a less peaceful and less safe world than ten or fifteen years ago.
我们正在对抗的那种安全愿景，说白了就是：相信天上的那位老兄，他会替我们解决一切，条件是我们得交出所有的隐私和自主权。
The vision of safety that we're competing with is basically, oh, you know, let's trust the uncle in the sky, and the uncle in the sky is going to figure everything out for us in exchange for taking away all of our privacy and all of our agency.
加密货币没法拯救美元。
Crypto does not have the ability to fix the dollar.
但加密货币能创造出一种全新的东西，它没有美元的一些缺点，每个人都可以自由选择用或不用。
Crypto has the ability to create its own thing that does not have some of the disadvantages that the dollar has, and each individual person is free to use it or free to not use it.
我觉得一般来说，总得时不时强迫自己亲手去做一些事，哪怕根本没必要，就是为了保持大脑不生锈。
I think in general, there is this pattern where you just have to force yourself to do things manually, at least sometimes, even though you don't have to, just to make sure that your brain stays on.
主动学习的效果，哪怕花的时间一样，也比被动学习强十倍。
Learning actively is just 10 times more effective than learning passively, even for the same amount of time spent.
多年来，互联网一直承诺带来更多开放、更多自由和更多自主权。
For years, the Internet promised more openness, more freedom, and more agency.
但随着系统越来越集中，人工智能越来越强大，这些问题看起来已经不一样了。
But as systems become more centralized and AI becomes more capable, those questions start to look different.
维塔利克·布特林在过去十年里一直在思考，如何让技术保护个人的自主权，而不是取代它。
Vitalik Buterin has spent much of the last decade thinking about how technology could protect individual agency instead of replacing it.
他不是试图掌控整个世界，而是创造一些空间——他称之为‘庇护型技术’，让人们能够自由地协作、创造和思考。
Not by trying to control the entire world, but by creating spaces, what he calls sanctuary technologies, where people can coordinate, create, and think freely.
与此同时，人工智能正在改变人们学习、工作甚至思考的方式。
At the same time, AI is changing how people learn, work, and even reason.
真正的挑战不在于打造更强大的系统，而在于确保人类始终是积极的参与者，而不是被动的使用者。
The challenge is not just building more powerful systems, but making sure humans remain active participants rather than passive users.
索菲亚·杜和宾吉·潘德与维塔利克·布特林探讨技术、自由以及人类自主权的未来。
Sophia Dew and Binji Pande speak with Vitalik Buterin about technology, freedom, and the future of human agency.
今天，我们有幸邀请到维塔利克，他是以太坊的创始人，也是一位极具影响力的思考者。
Today, we're actually joined by Vitalik, who is the founder of Ethereum and also a super prominent thinker.
我们特别欣赏他所分享的那些观点，还有他通过各种数字内容写下的文字。
And one of the big reasons is we just love some of the things that Vitalik actually talks about and shares about and through a lot of the digital artifacts that he writes.
所以这次对话，正是我们深入挖掘这些数字内容的好机会——细读他的博客、分析他的推文，真正了解他是谁，维塔利克，你究竟是怎样的一个人。
And so this is actually an opportunity for us to unpack these digital artifacts even further, unpack his blog posts, unpack his tweets, and get to just know who he is, who you are, Vitalik.
感谢你以如此深入的方式参与我们的对话。
Thank you for joining us at a deeper level.
但在进入我们接下来要讨论的内容之前，我想先提一下我们的Discord和X聊天室。
But before we jump into some of the things that we're gonna talk about, I just wanted to plug the Discord and X Chat that we have.
我们确实有一个实时聊天频道。
So we have an actual chat.
我和Binji一直想尝试一种全新的方式，让更多观众参与到互动中来。
And one of the things that we really want to do, Binji and I wanted to experiment in a whole new way and actually get more user interaction.
我们不想只是做个普通的访谈，和Vitalik一问一答。
And we didn't want to do just a regular interview with Vitalik.
我们更想深入挖掘他的观点，理解他思想背后的智慧。
We wanted to actually unpack his advice, get to know his wisdom.
最后，我们会邀请观众分享你们正在面对的实际问题，看看Vitalik会怎么回应，给出他的真实建议——我真的很期待这一点。
And then at the end, we'll have an opportunity to hear directly from the audience about situations you're facing and see how Vitalik reacts to them and get his actual advice on them, which I'm so excited for.
我们挑了一些他过去写过的博客文章和推文，现场调出了这些内容，今天就一起看看。
So we pulled up a few questions, a few blog posts, a few tweets live from some of Vitalik's past writings, and we actually have them here today.
我马上调出来，真的很期待和大家一起深入聊聊这些内容。
So I'll pull this up in a second, but really excited to unpack those a bit and talk them more through with you.
是的。
Yeah.
嗨，Vitalik。
Hey, Vitalik.
现在大家都上线了。
I think we're all live now.
对。
Yeah.
Vitalik已经在线了。
Vitalik's already live here.
欢迎。
Welcome.
最近怎么样？
How's it going?
顺便问一下，游牧生活怎么样？
How's nomad life been, by the way?
我知道你到现在还是完全在游牧状态。
Like, I know you're you're still you're still fully nomadic.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
说实话，我还没疯掉，这算不幸中的万幸吧。
I mean, unfortunately, I have, not gone mad.
所以那一部分嘛，确实没达到‘游牧’该有的样子，不过可能这反而是好事。
So I guess, know, that part has not been living up to the name, but that's probably a good thing.
对。
Yeah.
至于纳廷的事，咱们待会儿再说。
Yes, Natting is for later.
确实如此。
Indeed.
太棒了。
Awesome.
所以，咱们要不要回顾一下？你写过很多关于人工智能、文明整体，还有科技、以太坊这些方面特别有意思的内容。
So should we pull up, like I mean, the whole concept here is, like, you've written so many interesting things across, like, AI, across, like, civilization generally, and, like, tech, obviously, Ethereum and whatnot.
我们就是挑了你博客里的一些文章，我和索菲亚都很有幸读过。
So we're just kinda, like, pulling up some of the stuff that you've written in your blogs, which Sophia and I have had the pleasure.
老实说，过去三天里，我们一直在重读你的博客和推文，就想从中找些亮点用在这次对话里。
Like, honestly, over the past three days, we've been rereading your blogs, like, and tweets and just trying to find nuggets out of them for this.
所以，我们挑了几个出来。
So, yeah, we got a couple of these.
没错。
Yep.
十年前，你刚开始着手创建以太坊，现在一晃十年过去了。
A decade ago, you were at the very early stages of actually creating Ethereum, and now it's a decade later.
我很好奇，从那以后，你的自我认知有什么变化吗？
And I'm so curious, how has your identity changed since then?
我写那篇文章的时候，其实是在回应一种观点，说如果我们让科技延长寿命，反而可能不是好事，因为生命只有有限，才有意义。
I think, when I wrote that, the thing that I was writing before, right, was, sort of a a rebuttal to, people who argue that, you know, if we develop technology, it's not let us live much longer than that might actually be a bad thing because life needs to be finite to have meaning.
对吧？
Right?
我的看法是，如果生命是无限的，那我们周围的一切——所处的环境、身边的人、整个世界——都会在十年间发生翻天覆地的变化。虽然这看起来是个连续的过程，但本质上几乎就像一次死亡和重生。
And, my reply basically as well, actually, if our lives are infinite, the like everything around us, the situations that we're in, the, people that were around, the kind of world that we're around, like, everything changes so much over the course of ten years that, you know, as much as it's a continuous process, it almost might as well be a death and a rebirth.
对吧？
Right?
世界本身反而是有限的，而且比任何个体都更有限。
And and so, like, the world is finite and, I mean, like, actually, you know, the world is, much more finite than, even any of the individual people in it.
对吧？
Right?
因为世界里的每一个部分，都在飞速地变化着。
Because, any individual aspect of it is just changing so quickly.
这一点，我刚开始的时候根本没意识到。
And that's something I really did not appreciate at the beginning.
对吧？
Right?
年轻的时候，总觉得世界上的很多事情都是恒久不变的。
You know, as a teenager sort of growing up into the world, so many things felt permanent.
等我到了二十五岁，后来又到三十岁，回头看看五年前、十年前的自己，或者那时候的世界，我突然有了一个清晰的参照——那时候的我，已经是个完全成熟的成年人，清醒、有判断力，真的懂很多事情。
And, as I, yeah, got to age 25 and then eventually as I got to age 30, I, would look back to, myself five or ten years ago or the world five or ten years ago, and I would actually have that reference point, right, of myself being, sort of fully, you know, adults, you know, fully conscious, fully yeah.
我觉得自己对世界的理解，至少在当时看来，已经相当深入了。
And understanding what's going on in the world to a at least what I thought was a pretty high level.
那时候我就能明显感觉到，现在和过去之间巨大的变化。
And I'd be able to notice just, like, the large differences between then and now.
对吧？
Right?
举个例子吧，对长期关注加密货币的人来说。
So maybe I could give one example, right, for the long time crypto people.
对吧？
Right?
那你还记得比特币创世区块里的那句话吗？
So do you remember the quote that's inside the Bitcoin Genesis block?
对吧？
Right?
就是2009年1月3日，《泰晤士报》头版标题：‘银行濒临第二次救助边缘’。
It's, you know, 2009, January 3, the Times on brink of second bailout for banks.
对吧？
Right?
你上次想到银行救助是什么时候？
When's the last time you thought about a bank bailout?
你知道的，这种事偶尔会发生。
Like, you know, it it comes off sometimes.
对吧？
Right?
但现在的影响力肯定比2011年、2012年那时候小了十倍不止，那时候比特币简直定义了我们对加密货币的所有认知。
But, it's like definitely ten ten times less than it did in 2011, 2012 when it just defined how we think about crypto.
对吧？
Right?
我们得想想现在世界正在发生什么，技术怎么发展，甚至这些变化是怎么影响人与人之间的相处方式的。
You know, like, the themes that we need to think about the, in terms of what's happening in the world, in terms of technology, even in service of the way that we relate to other people.
你大概还记得吧，十年前或者十五年前，关系再好的朋友，好几天不联系都挺正常的。
So, like, you know, you probably remember, like, ten or fifteen years ago, like, it would be normal for people who are close friends to sometimes not talk to each other for days.
这听起来是不是特别离谱？
Like, doesn't that sound crazy?
那时候真能好几天都不说一句话。
Like, you would literally not talk to each other for days.
对吧？
Right?
这怎么想得通呢？
It's like, how?
你会出现戒断反应。
You'll like get withdrawal symptoms.
难道不会出问题吗？
Doesn't like something break?
对吧？
Right?
在我们拥有这些随时在线的通讯设备之前，生活本来就是那样的。
And like, well, you know, before we had all of these, always on communication devices, then like that was, the life that we lived in.
对吧？
Right?
我说，二十年前，我还记得在城里散步迷路是常有的事。
I mean, twenty years ago, I remember it was possible to get lost in walking around the city, right?
连这种最基本的事情都变了，对吧？
Like even things are like as basic as that, right?
世界上的很多事情都已经不一样了。
And, like so much about the world has changed.
而且我觉得，随着你慢慢长大，还会发生另一件事，就是你会开始在世界上承担某种角色，对吧？
And, I think the other thing that happens as you grow, right, is like you come to take on a role in the world, right?
你知道，在你生命的前二十年左右，你基本上就是个学习者，是个消费者，是个玩别人设好的游戏的人。
And, you know, when in the first for about maybe twenty years of your life, you're sort of mostly, you know, you're a learner, you're a consumer, you're someone who's sort of playing games that other people set up for you.
而成长过程中一个很大的转变，就是你越来越需要自己去创造、定义并参与这些游戏。
And, one of the big transitions, that, you know, you, like, get to as, you grow up more is, you know, like, you get into more and more of role of actually being the one that has to create and define and contribute to the games yourself.
对吧？
Right?
而且你知道，这些只是态度上的根本转变。
And, you know, these are just fundamental changes in attitude.
它们是根本性的改变，比如你的思维方式，还有你认为哪些是重要问题，哪些事情会让你夜不能寐。
They're, fundamental changes in, you know, like, how you think, fundamental changes in, like, what you think these, important problems are, what kinds what kinds of things keep you up at night.
而且你知道，如果
And it's, you know, if
你
you
回头一看，真的好像你已经换了一个全新的世界。
just look back at it, it really does look like you've, kind of almost moved to a different universe.
对吧？
Right?
所以我觉得，这也许就是为什么，哪怕我们活上一千年，也不会觉得世界无聊的原因——
And so I think this is, you know, like one of the reasons why, right, even if, you know, like we left a thousand years old, like we're not going to get bored of the world, right?
我们会不断为自己创造新的世界。
Like, you know, we're going to keep creating new worlds for ourselves.
我觉得这既非常迷人，有时也让人感到一丝伤感。
And so, you know, like, I think that's a really fascinating and also definitely sometimes sad.
你确实会失去一些怀念的东西，但同时，你依然身处这个充满美好未来的世界上。
Sometimes you lose things that you miss, but also, like, you're still a beautiful future of the world that we inhabit.
这真是太美了。
Oh, that's so beautiful.
不对。
No.
你说得太对了。
You're so right.
这太惊人了。
That's amazing.
我觉得有一件事特别有意思，就是人越长大，那些点点滴滴的经历会慢慢累积，最终塑造出完整的自我，这种说法真的很耐人寻味。
I think one of the things is, like, that that general piece of, like, as you get older, these these moments, like, like, cumulatively grow into your whole self and sense of self, and that, like, defines you is fascinating.
这对世界上每个人来说都是如此。
That's just true for everyone in the world.
对你来说，真正让你夜不能寐、不断追求的，就是这些东西。
In your case, right, like, it's, like, what keeps you up at night and what you push for.
你19岁的时候就创建了以太坊。
Like, you built Ethereum when you were 19 years old.
对吧？
Right?
你那时候还挺年轻的。
Like, you were fairly young.
对你来说，这简直就像一场责任的极速通关，某种意义上，它自己就冒了出来。
So for you, was, like, this almost this speedrun of responsibility in a way and, like, I like just like this thing that birthed itself.
我觉得特别有意思的是，你的想法如何随着你一起成长，社区又如何跟着你一起变化，整个这件事本身也在慢慢成熟。
And I think one thing that's really interesting is, like, how your thinking around it evolves with you and how the community evolves with you and how a lot of, like, what this whole thing is also grows up.
我觉得，所有参与过自己创造的事物，或者融入过某个社群的人，都能看到类似的共鸣。
And I think there's definitely like interesting parallels across like everyone who's had an involvement in anything that they have brought into the world or just like a community that they are a part of.
是的。
Yeah.
过去十年里，对我来说最大的转变就是，从一开始几乎活在自动驾驶模式，到某天突然意识到一个让人害怕的事实：等等。
And I think, the biggest transition for me over the last ten years was, basically, yeah, going from, where I was at the beginning where I really felt like I was living, like, most of my life on autopilot, to, like, sometimes actually having this scary realization that, like, wait.
此刻，根本没有别的飞行员。
Some at this moment, there is no other pilot.
有些时刻，真的需要我亲自当飞行员，去做出那些影响重大的决定。
And, wait, like, there are individual situations that, like, actually require me to be a pilot and to go and, like, actually make big consequential decisions.
再说回我最初创建这个领域的时候。
And, you know, going back to even when I created this area even before.
对吧？
Right?
我记得自己退学的过程，甚至那时候都感觉是在自动驾驶。
It's I remember the process of, myself dropping out of university and actually even that felt autopilot.
对吧？
Right?
当时我报名参加了那个校企合作项目，就是在大学里读书，但要交替上课和去初创公司上班。
Like basically, yeah, what happens was that first I signed up for this co op program where basically you're in university, but you get to alternate between university terms and going to work for a startup.
我选了加密货币公司，因为我早就对比特币感兴趣。
And I decided that the startup I worked for would be a crypto startup because I was already into Bitcoin.
于是我申请去Ripple公司实习。
And so I signed up to take an officer working at Ripple.
但后来因为美国移民法的规定，我需要的那种签证要求公司必须成立满一年，而Ripple当时才成立九个月。
And then, you know, thanks to the wonders of US integration law, it turns out that for the category of Visa I needed, the company needed it to have existed for a year and Ripple had only existed for nine months.
他们努力想找办法绕过这个限制。
And so they tried hard to find a way around it.
最后他们放弃了。
Eventually they gave up.
对吧？
Right?
于是我就休了一个学期。
Then I so instead I had an off term.
在休学期间，我其实还在写一本关于比特币的杂志。
And so in my off term, well, I was also a Bitcoin magazine writer.
所以我打算环游世界，去拜访几个比特币社区。
And so I figured I would go around the world and just visit a couple of Bitcoin communities.
后来我开始学编程，才发现原来有这么多社区和事情值得我去了解。
Then I got into programming and I realized that like, hey, there's like actually a lot of communities I need to see and things I need to do.
于是我决定把休学时间延长到三个学期。
So I'm going to go and extend my off term to three off terms.
几个月后，以太坊出现了。其实最早的时候，以太坊的构想是给一个叫Mastercoin的项目提的建议，想帮他们把协议变得更通用一些。
And then, a few months later, Ethereum started and, actually, yeah, at the very beginning, the original form of Ethereum was a project that's, a proposal to the developers of this project called Mastercoin for how they could meet their protocol more general purpose.
我发给他们之后，他们说：嗯，这事得等很久才能轮到我们。
And I sent it to them and they basically said like, hey, you know, well, it'll take a long time before we get to this.
我当时就明白了，算了，我不可能等那么久，不如自己动手干吧。
And I just realized, okay, I'm not well, I'm not gonna wait so long here, but I'll just do the thing myself.
对吧？
Right?
我开始做之后，还是觉得，我就干几个月，做完就回学校。
And then I started doing it and and even then I still thought, okay, I'm only gonna do this for a few months, then it'll be done and then I'll go back to university.
对吧？
Right?
直到一月份，我看到那么多人涌进来，才发现以太坊的热度远超想象，这才意识到：等等，这可能就是我新的方向了。
And then only in January when I saw just how big the crowds were, just how much of a huge amount of interest Ethereum had gotten, did I realize like, wait, this is my new thing.
我不回去了，是吧？
I'm not going back, am I?
对吧？
Right?
我后来一直靠着惯性往前走，估计走了挺长时间。
And, I kept auto piloting for, I think, a very long time.
对吧？
Right?
在很多方面，惯性其实贯穿了每一个层面。
And in a lot of ways, autopilot really comes at every level.
对吧？
Right?
我觉得意识形态这个层面尤其重要，对吧？
I think the level of ideology is also a big one, right?
年轻的时候，我老是跟着别人二十年前写的东西走，比如加密技术怎么保护互联网上的自由这类想法。
Like when I was younger, I would be, yeah, kind of going off of these ideas from that other people wrote, you know, twenty years ago, ideas like how cryptography could protect freedom on the Internet, for example.
这个特别关键。
That's a very big one.
还有去中心化网络的重要性，像BitTorrent这样的东西，还有开源软件的意义。
Also, the importance of decentralized network, you know, things like BitTorrent, the importance of open source software.
这些想法当时让我很心动，但其实我只是被动地吞下了别人的观点。
Ideas that seemed appealing to me, but ideas that I was sort of gulping down from other people.
在二十二年前后，我突然意识到，我们脑子里那些运行的脚本，早就过时了。
And there was a moment in kind of the early to mid twenty twenties when I realized that I stole many of the scripts that, you know, we were running on were just so outdated.
我得真正站出来，像上世纪九十年代那些密码朋克一样，亲手写出当初我年轻时被动接受的那些话。
And I needed to, like, actually step up and, like, sort of be in the position that the nineteen nineties cipherbunks were in when they, yeah, started, like, originally wrote those words that I was, passively gulping down when I was a teenager.
我得从最根本的原理出发，真正理解加密技术在世界中的位置、技术的未来，以及我们面临的挑战，然后建立起自己的理念。
And, and, like, actually really, yeah, understand from first principles, you know, like, the place of crypto in the world, the the future of technology, the challenges that we have, and, kind of develop a, yeah, philosophy from there.
一百 percent，然后去践行它。
A 100 And do that.
我觉得这个问题在当下特别有意思，也一直悬而未决。
I think this is an open question that's been very interesting these days as well.
对。
Yeah.
你还提到，你年轻时活在自动驾驶模式，现在却变得主动多了。
And you even mentioned like the change from being on autopilot when you were maybe younger to now just being a lot active.
我觉得世界越艰难，人们就越想靠本能行事。
And I feel like it's almost the more challenging the world gets, the more our own want to just operate on autopilot.
我觉得从童年到成年的转变中最奇怪的一点就是，你开始意识到，根本不会有谁突然出现来救你。
And I think that's one of the craziest things of this transition from childhood to adult is you start to realize, wait, there's not this magic person who's going to come save you.
能不能摆脱本能反应，主动承担责任、采取行动，全看我们自己。
It's up to us to not be operating on autopilot and actually take agency and actually act.
我知道现在这种想法特别普遍。
And so I know this is like really prevalent now.
我目前在旧金山。
I'm here in San Francisco.
这也是我能够亲自参与一些录音的原因。
That's like one of the reasons that I get to do a little bit of the recording in person.
围绕着本能反应、技术飞速发展这些话题，大家都在讨论：我是该随波逐流，任由它塑造我，还是该做点什么？
And these conversations around like autopilot around, hey, technology is moving really fast around, do I just let it shape me and kind of like let it go or where it's going?
我到底该怎么真正参与进去？
Or how do I actually get involved?
你对科技的未来，尤其是人工智能和以太坊的未来，给出了非常实用的建议。
And you give really practical advice around the future of technology, especially around the future of AI and around the future of Ethereum.
我特别喜欢你的文字，因为你创造了一些独特的术语，比如‘庇护型科技’。
And what I love about your writing is you coined specific terms, and one of them is sanctuary technology.
我这里有一句你的话，说以太坊应该把自己看作是在构建庇护型科技的生态系统的一部分。
I have this quote here that you have around Ethereum should conceptualize ourselves as being part of an ecosystem building sanctuary technologies.
我特别喜欢‘庇护’这个词。
I love this word sanctuary.
我想再深入聊聊这个概念。
And I would love to just unpack a bit more deeper.
为什么用‘庇护’这个词？
Why sanctuary?
为什么不直接说‘开源’？
Why not open source?
为什么不直接说‘去中心化’？
Why not decentralized?
‘避难所’意味着一个能保护你、让你远离危险的地方。
Sanctuary stands for this place that protects you, protects you from danger.
你最终选择用这个词来描述我们正在构建的技术，是出于这个原因吗？
Ultimately was the reason that you picked this word to describe the technology that we're building?
我觉得现在这个世界面临的一个挑战是，我们显然生活在一个比十年前、十五年前更不和平、更不安全的环境中。
I think one of the challenges of the world right now is that, you know, we're definitely in a less peaceful and, less safe world than, we were in ten or fifteen years ago.
对吧？
Right?
十年前或十五年前，你担心的大概是银行被救助，还有美元可能通胀这类事。
And, you know, ten or fifteen years ago, you were you were worried about, you know, like the banks getting bailout bailouts and, potentially, you know, like, dollars inflating.
对吧？
Right?
十五年后的今天，美元大幅贬值的风险，实际上比以前可信多了。
And, you know, like, fifteen years later, it's like, well, on the one hand, the risk that the dollar is gonna go crazy is, like, actually way more credible than it was.
另一方面，人们——甚至是我们身边的人——所遭遇的困境，已经远远超出了货币贬值这么简单。
And on the other hand, there's, like, much worse things happening to people even happening to, like, people that we know, than the than just having your currency inflated.
对吧？
Right?
我们现在看到各种威胁在数字世界、现实世界，还有社交媒体上不断冒出来，尤其是社交媒体已经变成了一场模仿式的战场。
And, you know, we're seeing all of these threats pop up in the cyber world, in the physical world, in, terms of the on the social media landscape, for example, right, and, the way that that has, transformed into a sort of mimetic battlefield.
这已经不是那种像在森林里闲逛、顺手捡点糖果就能搞定的环境了。
And it's the kind of environment where it's not just about sort of, roaming through the forest and making sure you're collecting all of the candy you can, right?
在这个环境里，你得先确保自己没生病，才能去捡糖果。
It's like an environment where before you can collect candy, you really need to make sure that you're sick, right?
我觉得另一点也很重要，那就是我们正在和另一种安全观竞争。
And the second part of all of this that I think is important is that there is a vision of safety that we're competing with, right?
那种安全观就是：别操心了，交给那个‘叔叔’吧，他会替你搞定一切，代价是你得交出所有的隐私和自主权。
And the vision of safety that we're competing with is basically, oh, you know, let's trust the uncle in this guy, and the uncle in this guy is going to figure everything out for us in exchange for, you know, taking away all of our privacy and all of our agency, right?
不管这个‘天上的叔叔’是帕兰提尔、某家超级AI公司，还是你选择的任何外国机构，这种安全观本质上都是让人失去力量的。
And, you know, whether the uncle in the sky is, you know, like, Palantir or some super intelligence AI company, or some equivalent in, you know, like, the foreign country of your choice, it's, like, there is this vision of safety that's very disempowering.
我觉得，哪怕是我们早期版本的DEAC，核心理念也是：既要安全，也要有自主权。
And I think the the core idea of, even, the earlier version of all of this, which was a DEAC, right, is that we want to be safe and at the same time, we want to be empowered.
我们想要的，是一种能让我们始终掌握主动权、保持主导地位的方式。
And, you know, we want something that continues to keep us in control, and to keep us at the center in a way that in a way where we have agency.
我觉得‘避风港’这个词，恰恰很好地表达了这一点。
And that's, you know, I I think one of the things that, like, the word sanctuary does a a good job of capturing.
完全同意。
Yeah.
我再赞同不过了。
Couldn't agree more.
随着我们的生活越来越多地迁移到线上，我们对舒适空间的渴望也越来越强烈。
One thing that I think that's interesting is, like, as more and more of our life goes online, the more and more we crave spaces of comfort.
没错。
Yeah.
对我来说，随着在数字世界里待的时间越来越长，‘避风港’这个词几乎就等同于一个让人安心的地方。
And, like, sanctuary to me, like, almost sounds like a place of comfort as I spend more and more of my time in this, like, world.
我特别喜欢这个词。
So I love that word.
我觉得这个词选得真好。
I think it's it's awesome choice.
其实我还漏掉了一个点，那就是庇护所并不是全面的。
Actually, there's one more aspect of it that I forgot to mention, right, which is that a sanctuary is not totalizing.
对吧？
Right?
庇护所不是整个宇宙。
A sanctuary is not the universe.
对吧？
Right?
庇护所并不是一种安全愿景，认为通过把整个世界都变得安全，就能让你安全。
The a sanctuary is not a vision of safety that says that we're gonna make you safe by transforming the entire world into something safer.
我觉得这一点反而更现实，也更尊重人们的自由，比起其他一些替代方案来说。
And I think that itself is something that's sort of both more realistic and, say, even more respectful of people's freedom than, some of the other alternatives.
对吧？
Right?
我觉得这种思路其实和加密货币的本质特别契合，毕竟加密货币根本没法改变美元的现状。
And that's, I think an approach that's just also fundamentally more native to the kind of work that crypto does, right, where, you know, crypto does not have like, does not have the ability to fix the dollar.
加密货币能做的，是创造出自己的一套体系，避开美元的一些缺点。
Crypto has the ability to create its own thing that does not have some of the disadvantages that the dollar has.
每个人都可以自由选择用不用它，完全由自己决定。
And, you know, like, each individual person is free to use it or free to not use it.
所以我觉得，这也是一个特别重要的细节，值得我们好好把握。
And so I think like that's also one of the other nuances that, you know, you really wanna capture.
我太喜欢这个说法了。
Oh, I love that.
这话真美。
That's so beautiful.
不过时间快到了，有点遗憾，我们本来还想聊更多这么棒的句子。
And I know we're kind of running out of time here, which is kind of a shame because we had so many beautiful quotes that we wanted to get through.
我知道我刚才抢话了，但你之前说过一句特别打动我的话——人类才是最亮的星，真的特别美。
Like, I know I kindly peaked, but you had one that was just was like, we, the humans are the brightest star, which I thought was just such a such a pretty quote as well.
我特别喜欢你这样表达这个观点。
And I just like love the way that that you shaped that.
但在结束之前，我们一个重要的目标是，你文字里有这么多真知灼见，我们想给听众一个机会，分享他们正在面对的实际问题，听听你的建议。
But before we close out, one of the big goals that we wanted to do is you clearly have so many nuggets of wisdom that was so evident in your writing, but we wanted to give the audience an opportunity to also share about situations that they're facing and get a bit of your advice into what they're actually up to.
所以我和Binji在Twitter上收集和调研了大家遇到的真实情况，挑出了几个典型的。
So Binji and I were collecting and polling people on Twitter about actual situations that they've been in, and we have a few.
Binji，要不你分享一个大家提到的例子？Vitalik一定很想听听你的看法。
Binji, wanna share maybe one of the things that people have been saying, and Vitalik would love to hear what you think.
好的。
Yeah.
我在找一个合适的例子。
I'm trying to get a good one.
行吧。
Okay.
我们刚才聊到成长之类的话题，我觉得有一件事挺有意思的。
So, like, I I think one thing that's interesting since we kinda talked about, like, growing up and stuff.
好的。
Okay.
有人提到，六个月前他开始在工作中用Claude写几乎所有东西。
Someone said, I started using Claude for almost everything I write at work six months ago.
我的产出确实提高了，但上周在会议上做口头汇报时，我发现自己的临场反应能力不如以前了。
My output is way up, but last week, I had to give a verbal update in a meeting, and I noticed I couldn't think on my feet the way I used to.
我不确定自己是变得更高效了，还是思考能力在退化。
I'm wondering if I'm getting more productive or getting worse of thinking.
我想他真正想问的是，当你开始依赖这些工具来辅助思考时，该怎么避免自己的思维能力慢慢退化？
I guess, like, the question he's kind of asking is, like, how do you end up how do you, like, not let your brain erode away when you kind of start relying on these different systems to kind of accentuate it?
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得，从小时候开始，我就一直刻意强迫自己多动手做事情，而不是只依赖工具。
I think, for me, like, almost since I was a kid, I've definitely, yeah, forced myself to do more things by hands than I have to.
对吧？
Right?
我小时候在化学课上，总是故意不用计算器做实验。
Like I was the kid who, in chemistry class would try to do the tests without a calculator.
那可真够难的。
And, you know, that was crazy hard.
得背一堆表格什么的，确实费劲，但确实有帮助。
You know, had to memorize memorize walk tables and, you know, but at the same time, it helps.
对吧？
Right?
导航城市也是同样的道理，对吧？
Also, same thing for navigating in cities, right?
所以我一直觉得，走路比开车健康得多。
Like, this is why, like, I just fundamentally think, you know, like walking is so much healthier than being in a car.
这不只是锻炼身体那么简单，对吧？
Like, it's not even just the exercise, right?
当你开车的时候，城市对你来说就像是一堆传送点，对吧？
It's like if you're in a car, you experience a city as a collection of teleport points, right?
但如果你走路，你就得真真切切地想清楚要去哪儿，整个路线才会连成一体，真是让人惊叹。
And, if you're walking, you have to like actually think about where you're going and like the whole thing actually fits together and like, wow.
城市像一张网格，你可以从一个地方走到另一个地方，完全遵循某种几何规律。
Like, it's like a grid and you can like move from one place to another place and it follows a loss of geometry.
对吧？
Right?
我觉得总的来说，有一种模式就是，你得逼自己偶尔亲手做点事，哪怕不是非做不可，至少要这么做，才能确保大脑不生锈。
And, I think in general, there is this pattern where you just have to force yourself to do some do things manually, at least sometimes, at least to some extent, even though you don't have to, like, at the very least to just to make sure that your brain stays on.
而且，随着时代发展，这种需求只会越来越强。
And, like, that's probably something that will only have to increase more as time goes on.
主动学习的效果，比被动学习强十倍，哪怕花的时间一样多。
Like, learning actively is just 10 times more effective than learning passively, even for the same amount of time spent.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
你觉得这最终归根结底是关于主动性的吗？
Do do you think that ultimately comes like an agency thing?
你得自己主动推动自己，才有动力去学习，因为要逃避学习实在太容易了。
Like, you kind of have to start pushing yourself to have the agency to want to learn, because it's so easy to defer to not wanting to learn.
对吧？
Right?
我特别容易就想，反正直接问个聊天机器人就行，何必费脑子去思考呢。
It's so easy for me to be like, I'll just query a chatbot, then, like, do the work to think about something.
没错。
Yeah.
确实如此。
Yeah.
你肯定得这么做。
You definitely do.
是的。
Yeah.
不是。
No.
今天这场对话的很多主题，其实都围绕着人的主动性——我们作为人类，首先应该拥有主动权，不能总靠惯性生活，而要真正掌控自己的人生。
It seems like a lot of the themes from today's conversation was all around human agency and how we as humans, one, should have agency and not be on autopilot, actually take agency over our lives.
其次，是我们所构建的技术，如何持续支持这种人类的主动性。
And then two, how the technology that we build can continue to enable human agency.
这并不是把思考的责任全丢给某个模型，让它替我们完成一切，而是要始终牢牢掌握方向盘，积极参与并塑造我们创造的东西。
And this is not just something that we end up giving our brains off to some model to then do the work for us, but that we continue to be active in the driver's seat and active in shaping what we create.
我知道时间到了，有点遗憾，因为我觉得如果再多一点时间，我们还能深入探讨更多内容。
I know we are at time, which is kind of a bummer because I feel like if we had more time, there's so much more that we could continue unpacking and talking about.
但维塔利克，非常感谢你今天加入我们，也感谢你第一次来到MTS。
But Vitalik, really grateful for you to join us today and join us for the first time here on MTS.
能更了解你的思维方式，你对未来的看法，以及你对我们这些看到世界飞速变化、希望积极参与塑造它的人发出的小小呼吁，真的非常珍贵。
And it was so lovely to learn a bit more about how your brain works, to how you're thinking about the future, and just a little bit call to action for all of us folks who wanna get involved, see world changing so fast, and wanna make sure that we're active stewards in shaping how it evolves.
所以，Vitalik，非常感谢你加入我们。
So, Vitalik, thank you so much for joining us.
是的。
Yes.
也谢谢你，Binji。
Thank you too, Binji.
谢谢你，Sophia。
Thank you, Sophia.
感谢您收听这期的 a16z 播客。
Thanks for listening to this episode of the a 16 z podcast.
如果你喜欢这期节目，别忘了点赞、评论、订阅，给我们打分或写评价，也分享给你的朋友和家人。
If you like this episode, be sure to like, comment, subscribe, leave us a rating or a review, and share it with your friends and family.
想收听更多节目，请前往 YouTube、Apple Podcast 和 Spotify。
For more episodes, go to YouTube, Apple Podcast, and Spotify.
在 X 上关注我们 @a16z，并订阅我们的 Substack：a16z.substack.com。
Follow us on x at a sixteen z, and subscribe to our Substack at a16z.substack.com.
再次感谢收听，我们下一期再见。
Thanks again for listening, and I'll see you in the next episode.
提醒一下，本内容仅作信息参考，不构成任何法律、商业、税务或投资建议，也不应用于评估任何投资或证券，且并非针对任何a16z基金的投资者或潜在投资者。
As a reminder, the content here is for informational purposes only, should not be taken as legal business, tax, or investment advice, or be used to evaluate any investment or security, and is not directed at any investors or potential investors in any a sixteen z fund.
请注意，a16z及其关联方可能也持有本节目中讨论的公司的投资。如需更多详情，包括我们的投资列表，请访问a16z.com/disclosures。
Please note that a sixteen z and its affiliates may also maintain investments in the companies discussed in this For more details, including a link to our investments, please see a16z.com forward /disclosures.
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