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我记得是半夜，电话响了。
I think it was midnight, and my phone rings.
是个陌生号码，我就想，"哦，是坎耶。"
Unknown caller, so I'm like, "Oh, it's Kanye."
我说，"叶，怎么了？"
I go, "Ye, what's up?"
他说，"嘿，本，我听说你明天要搞烧烤。"
And he goes, "Hey, Ben, I heard you're having a barbecue tomorrow."
我说，"对，
And I was like, "Yeah.
是的。"
I am."
"我想在你的录音室录音。"
"I want to record in your studio."
我说，"叶，我没有录音室。"
And I'm like, "Ye, I don't have a studio."
他们的优势是世界级的吗？
Are their strengths world-class?
那他们是不是在某个方面是全球最顶尖的？
So are they the best in the world at something?
然后其他方面你就可以忽略了。
And then you overlook everything else.
这就是让一家公司伟大的原因，也是让一个创业者伟大的原因。
That's what makes a company great, and that's what makes an entrepreneur great.
不是看“哎呀，他们这个不会”，或者“哇，他们对财务一窍不通”。
Not, "Oh, they don't know how to do this," or, "Wow, they know nothing about finance."
每个创业者身上都有很多毛病。
There's so many things that are wrong with every entrepreneur.
每个伟大的创业者都有一些严重的缺点，但这没关系。
Every great entrepreneur has got something horribly wrong with them, but that's okay.
好的。
Okay.
关键是看他们真正擅长什么，他们最擅长的是什么？
It's what are they truly great at, what they're great at?
是什么让一个伟大的创业者与众不同？
What separates a great entrepreneur from everyone else?
对本·霍洛维茨来说，不是没有缺点，而是拥有一个如此出色的强项，以至于其他一切都变得次要。
For Ben Horowitz, it isn't the absence of weaknesses, it's having a strength so exceptional that everything else becomes secondary.
今天的节目来自我们的“推荐收听”系列，我们在这个系列中精选了来自我们更广泛网络中一些出色的对话。
Today's episode comes from our Recommended Listening series, where we feature standout conversations from people across our broader network.
这一期来自Vintage x Vintage，主持人詹姆斯·诺曼与a16z联合创始人本·霍洛维茨进行了该节目的首期对话。
This one comes from Vintage x Vintage, where host James Norman sits down with a16z co-founder, Ben Horowitz, for the show's inaugural episode.
本分享了他从工程师到首次担任CEO的经历中学到的东西，这些经历如何塑造了a16z的创立，以及为什么评估创始人时要寻找世界级的强项，而不是试图找到一个各方面都完美的人。
Ben shares what he learned going from engineer to first-time CEO, how those experiences shaped the founding of a16z, and why evaluating founders means looking for world-class strengths rather than trying to find someone who checks every box.
他们还谈到了人工智能，以及为什么本认为这个时刻比互联网更重要。
They also get into AI and why Ben sees this moment as bigger than the internet.
随着构建软件的成本和难度大幅下降，创造力变得越来越重要，这为那些对某个问题有深入了解的人打开了将知识转化为产品的大门。
As the cost and difficulty of building software collapses, creativity becomes increasingly important, opening the door for people with deep knowledge of a problem to turn that knowledge into a product.
在整个对话中，詹姆斯和本反复提到一个共同的影响，那就是嘻哈。
And throughout the conversation, James and Ben return to a shared influence, hip-hop.
从本在纳斯最低谷时学到的教训，到为什么他创立了《全额付款》来表彰那些塑造了这种文化的先驱。
From the lessons Ben took from Nas at his lowest point, to why he created Paid in Full to recognize the pioneers who shaped the culture.
欢迎收听《Vintage x Vintage》的第一集。
Welcome to the first episode of Vintage x Vintage.
这是第一集吗？
This is the first one?
是的，这是第一集。
It's the first one.
好的。
All right.
那挺好的。
Well, that's good.
我们一开场就搞了个大动作。
We're getting off with a bang.
踏入这个行业。
Stepping into the game.
但为了开启对话，这里是Vintage x Vintage。
But to start the conversation, it is Vintage x Vintage.
你是某一代的企业家。
You are of a certain vintage of entrepreneur.
但我们也有某种年份的——
But we also have a certain vintage-
老年份的。
An old vintage.
我们也有某种年份的葡萄酒。
We have a certain vintage of wine as well.
所有的葡萄酒都与这些关系相连。
And all the wines are connected to the relationships.
这就是Continuum。
This is Continuum.
但其实这是蒙大维。
But it's actually Mondavi.
罗伯特·蒙大维为美国葡萄酒定下了基调。
So Robert Mondavi, they set the tone for American wine.
但到了93年，纳帕谷出现了葡萄园病毒的情况。
But by '93, though, there was this virus vineyard situation in Napa.
所以他们不得不上市——
And so they had to go public-
哦，这样啊。
Oh, okay
在压力之下，就像——
... under duress, like-
“哦，我们得弄到这笔钱。
... "Oh, we got to get this money.
我们得继续下去。”
We got to keep going."
结果并不太好，因为华尔街的董事们进来后滥用这个名字，现在你就有那个——
Didn't turn out that well because Wall Street directors came in and abused the name, and now you have the-
没错
Bet
——如今人们会知道的罗伯特·蒙大维葡萄酒。
... Robert Mondavi wine that people would know today.
但是——
But-
——到2004年它基本上就垮了，家族不得不收拾残局。
... it kind of fell apart by '04, and the family had to pick up the pieces.
但最小的儿子后来接手，决定创立Continuum。
But the youngest son came along and decided to make Continuum.
他想追求卓越，把他所有的经验、他们酿造好酒的内在诀窍都运用起来，做出这款酒。
And he wanted to shoot for the stars, take all the learnings he had, the inner workings of how they made great wine, and make this.
好的。
Okay.
所以这个品牌是在困境中诞生的。
And so this was born out of struggle.
而且——
And-
好的
All right
……和我今天的嘉宾类似，在硅谷也做了同样的事情。
... similar to my guest today, did the same as Silicon Valley.
为云计算——
Set the tone-
……定下了基调。
... for cloud computing.
为了维持公司运转，不得不卖掉公司的核心业务。
Had to sell the heart of the company to keep the thing going.
即使上市后，股价也因此下跌，不得不艰难地爬出来。
Even after going public, stock dropped as a result and had to crawl out of that.
但是，你带着已有的知识、团队，以及公司内部的管理运作方式，也就是Opsware，一步步爬了回来，当时大家都觉得你们没戏了。
But took the knowledge one had, and the team, and the inner workings of how the thing was managed, Opsware, and clawed your way back from, people was like, they counting them out.
“不，他们撑不过去的。”
"Nah, they're not going to make it.
“这是互联网泡沫的破灭。”
It's a dot-com boom bust."
但就像……
But it's like-
……最终以16.5亿美元的价格退出。
... got the $1.65 billion exit.
所以Continuum很特别，也很传奇。
And so Continuum is special and legendary.
我的嘉宾，既特别又传奇。
My guest, special and legendary.
但正因为经历了这些磨难，才显得伟大。
But it's great because of the struggle.
所以这就是《创业维艰》这本书里的艰难之处。
And so this is the hard thing about hard things in the bottle.
好的。
All right.
这就是我的嘉宾，本·霍洛维茨。
And this is my guest, Ben Horowitz.
好的。
All right.
这个介绍非常棒。
That's a very nice introduction.
谢谢你，霍伊。
Thank you, Howie.
那么——
So-
还是我应该叫你詹姆斯？
Or should I call you James?
大多数人都叫你詹姆斯。
Most people call you James.
没错。
There you go.
我是从努米时代开始说的。
I'm talking from the Numi days.
所以，其实，等一下。
So, and actually, hold up.
其实，你看看那瓶酒上的年份就知道了。
Actually, take a look at the year in the wine for that.
2017年。
2017.
好的。
Okay.
我们做了一件挺搞笑又疯狂的事。
We did something pretty funny and crazy.
我们做了件挺有意思的事——
We did something pretty-
是不是和坎耶一起的CEO烧烤？
Was that the CEO barbecue with Kanye?
没错。
It was.
天哪，那真是太棒了。
Oh, boy, that was great.
那天是和Ye在录音室里度过的。
It was a day in the studio with Ye.
是啊，那太疯狂了。
Yeah, that was wild.
所以听众朋友们，事情是这样的，我们在办CEO烧烤，那是我家一个大型活动。
So for you listeners, what happened was we were having the CEO barbecue, which is a big event at my house and so forth.
然后大概半夜的时候，我手机响了。
And it's like, I think it was midnight, and my phone rings.
我听到电话响，估计是我没关铃声，然后我一看。
And I heard, I guess I didn't turn off the ringer, and I look at it.
是个陌生号码，我就想，"哦，是Kanye。"
Unknown caller, so I'm like, "Oh, it's Kanye."
然后我接了电话，说，"Ye，怎么了？"
And so I answer the phone, and I go, "Ye, what's up?"
他说，"嘿，Ben，我听说你明天有个烧烤聚会。"
And he goes, "Hey, Ben, I heard you're having a barbecue tomorrow."
我说，"对。
And I was like, "Yeah.
是有这么回事。"
I am."
他说，"我能来吗？"
He's like, "Can I come?"
我说，"当然可以，你来吧。"
I was like, "Sure, you can come."
他说：“哦，金能来吗？”
He goes, "Oh, can Kim come?"
我说：“对，金能来。
And I'm like, "Yeah, Kim can come.
她当然能来。”
Of course she can come."
“那克里斯能来吗？”
"Well, can Chris come?"
我说：“对，克里斯能来。”
I was like, "Yeah, Chris can come."
他说：“好的，太好了。
And he goes, "Okay, great.
我还想在你的录音室录音。”
And I want to record in your studio."
我说：“耶，我没有录音室。”
And I'm like, "Ye, I don't have a studio."
然后他说：“好的。”
And he goes, "Okay."
然后他们就说：“好的。”
And so they're like, "Okay."
接着，我早上六点半醒来，接了个电话。
Then, I wake up, 6:30 in the morning, I get a call.
“嘿，本，我是诺亚。”
"Hey, Ben, this is Noah.
“我是坎耶的工程师。”
I'm Kanye's engineer."
他说：“我打电话来是想问你工作室的规格。”
He's like, "I'm just calling about the specs on your studio."
我说：“诺亚，我没有工作室。”
And I'm like, "I don't have a studio, Noah."
他说：“你说你没有工作室是什么意思？”
He's like, "What do you mean you don't have a studio?
那我们怎么办？
What are we going to do?
坎耶还等着用录音室呢。
Kanye's expecting a studio."
我们得搞一个录音室。
"We've got to have a studio."
我当时就想，"天哪，完了。"
I'm like, "Oh, shit."
所以我给克里斯和内特打了电话。
So I call Chris and Nate.
我问他们，"我们认识谁有录音室？"
I'm like, "Who do we know who has a studio?"
他们说，"豪伊。"
And they're like, "Howie."
我说，"好，那咱们给他打电话吧，因为坎耶要来了。"
And I'm like, "Okay, well, let's call him because Kanye's coming over.
我们需要一个录音室。
We need a studio."
所以我们打电话给你，问你：“Howie，你在干嘛？”
And so we call you, we're like, "What are you doing, Howie?"
他说：“在看Netflix。”
He's like, "Watching Netflix."
我说：“好的。”
And I'm like, "Okay."
我问：“你的录音室是便携式的吗？”
I was like, "Is that studio you have portable?"
他说：“是的。”
And he's like, "Yeah.
对，是便携式的。
Yeah, it's portable."
长话短说，你把录音室开到我家，我们在房间里把它搭好了。
And so long story short, you drove the studio down to my house, and we set it up in the room.
然后还发生了很多疯狂的事情。
And then a lot more crazy stuff happened.
Ye在给我们放《Pablo》那张专辑。
Ye was playing us the "Pablo" album.
嗯，我们经历了很多。
Well, we went through a lot.
我们听了Push的专辑。
We went through Push's album.
基本上怀俄明州那些作品我们都过了一遍。
We went through basically all the Wyoming stuff.
对，他所有的作品。
Yeah, all his stuff.
对，基本上全都听了。
Yeah, basically all of it.
所以那是一个
So that was a
那是传奇的一天。
It was a legendary day
那真是疯狂。
That was a crazy thing.
那是传奇的一天。
That was a legendary day.
毫无疑问。
No doubt.
那次烧烤会上也有很多矛盾。
There were a lot of beefs at that barbecue, too.
当时有……冲突，我们以后可以细聊，但是——
There was- ... conflict, which we could get into later, but-
……我们可能得用整个播客来聊这个。
... we'd probably take up the whole podcast with that.
那会是嘻哈——
That would be the hip-hop-
……对于冠军来说的情况。
... for champs situation.
嘻哈很重要。
Hip-hop's important.
我们都是嘻哈迷。
We're both hip-hop heads.
嘻哈是什么时候开始流行的？
When did hip-hop become a thing?
什么时候开始觉得，'哦，我能从中看到自己，它激励我去做事情'？
When did it be like, "Oh, I can see myself in that, and it's motivating me to do things?"
那是怎么发生的？
How'd that come to be?
所以这是一个慢慢发展的过程。
So it's kind of a slow thing.
所以《Rapper's Delight》出来的时候，我大概12岁。
So I was probably 12 years old when "Rapper's Delight" came out.
那算是我们很多人听到的第一首，如果你不在纽约的话。
That was kind of the first one that a lot of us heard, if you weren't in New York.
我觉得第一首让我觉得“哇，这将会很不一样”的歌，是Run-DMC的《Hard Times》出来的时候。
I think the first one where I was really like, "Ooh, this is going to be very different," was when Run-DMC "Hard Times" came out.
我当时就觉得，“这首歌的感觉完全不一样——
And I was like, "This has a whole another feel to it-
——跟我听过的任何歌都不一样。”
... than anything I've heard."
所以我真的很喜欢，但真正让我迷上嘻哈的，是我去纽约上学的时候。
So I was really into it, but the thing that made me locked into hip-hop, so I went to school in New York.
我有一个一起长大的朋友，他因为一次奇怪的枪击事故，脸被射中了，然后失明了。
I have this friend who I grew up with who had gotten shot in the face, in some kind of weird gun accident, and he was blind.
所以我非常担心他。
And so, I was very worried about him.
我们关系特别亲密。
We were super close.
我打电话回家问我妈，我说：“赛斯怎么样了？
And I would call home to my mom, I was like, "How's Seth doing?
他还好吗？
Is he all right?
他会没事吗？”
Is he going to be okay?"
她说：“他中枪之后就没跟任何人说过话。
She's like, "He hasn't spoken to anybody since he's been shot.
他就坐在医院里。
He's just sitting in the hospital.
大家都担心他想不开，”之类的。
Everybody's worried he's suicidal," this and that and the other.
所以我就有了个主意，那时候我才18岁，傻乎乎的，我觉得嘻哈太棒了。
And so I got the idea, being a dumb 18-year-old kid, I was like, hip-hop is so great.
你可以什么都没有，然后你就能说唱你的鞋子，比如：“我的鞋子最棒。”
You can have nothing, and you'll rap about your shoes and like, "My shoes are the best."
我就想，他需要那种感觉。
And I'm like, he needs that feeling.
所以我会录下DJ Red Alert和Chuck Shell的节目——
And so I would record the DJ Red Alert and Chuck Shell on the show-
哦，那才是好东西都在的地方。
Oh, that's where all the good stuff was.
我周六晚上就坐在那儿。
I'd sit there on Saturday night.
其他人都出去了，我就一直在录，然后把节目磁带寄给他。
Everybody else would be out, and I'd be just recording, and I would send him the tapes of the show.
然后我打电话回家问他怎么样，他们说：“他现在说话了，但说的全是嘻哈，” “还有DJ Red Alert，还有Rock The Bells”之类的。
And then I called home to see how he's doing, and they're like, "Well, he's talking now, but all he'll talk about is hip-hop," "and DJ Red Alert, and Rock The Bells" and all that.
我就说：“哦，那挺好的。”
And I was like, "Oh, cool."
所以那年夏天我回去的时候，我们组了个嘻哈组合，叫Blind and Def Crew。
So then when I went out that summer, we started a hip-hop group called the Blind and Def Crew.
Blind and D-E-F。
Blind and D-E-F.
我们唱的是关于失明的说唱。
And we rapped about being blind.
大部分歌词都是我写的。
I wrote most of the lyrics.
所以我写了像这样的歌词：“Blind Def Crew，你知道我们很酷。
So I wrote things like, "The Blind Def Crew, you know where fly.
我们三个人，但只有四只眼睛。”
Three of us, but we got four eyes."
天哪。
Oh, man.
就是唱关于失明的说唱。
Just rapping about being blind.
从那以后，我就对它特别有感情了。
And so then I was very attached to it after that.
而且嘻哈非常注重商业，你也知道，尤其是在早期。
And hip-hop is very business-oriented, as you know, particularly in the early days.
一切都围绕着商业。
It was all about business.
纯粹就是商业。
Strictly business.
对。
Yep.
所以当我开始写商业方面的内容时，很多想法都来自那些老嘻哈歌曲。
And so, when I started writing on business, so many of the ideas came from those old hip-hop songs.
于是我开始把歌词放在文章开头，主要是为了注明出处。
And so I started just putting the lyrics at the top of the posts, mostly to give credit where credit was due.
因为如果我听到一个想法——
Because if I hear an idea-
这是我的想法。
This is my thought
……然后我写下一个想法
... and then I write an idea
……这是我的灵感来源
... this is my inspiration-
……所以我要，你知道的，对。
... so I'm going to, you know, yeah.
对，就把它放出来，让大家知道它来自……
Yeah, just put it out there so you know it came from...
这个想法不是我想出来的。
I didn't come up with this idea.
它来自Rakim，或者来自Rick Ross之类的。
It came from Rakim, or it came from Rick Ross or whatever.
所以后来我就和这个联系在了一起，诸如此类。
And so then I got really associated with it and all that kind of thing.
好的。
Okay.
不过有意思的是，你知道我的背景，我算是另一个年代的人，对吧？
It's funny, though, because knowing where I'm coming from, I'm of a different vintage, though, right?
所以，你不可能在西海岸长大，又是你这个年代的人，却真的是听着嘻哈长大的，因为那时候嘻哈还没传到那边。
So it would be impossible for you to be growing up on the West Coast and be of your vintage and actually grow up in hip-hop because it just didn't travel.
那时候还没有数字音乐平台什么的，所以就像——
There's no DSPs and stuff, so it's like-
相比之下，我六岁的时候听的是Hammer或者别的什么。
... versus, I'll be six years old listening to wherever, it's Hammer or whatever.
我九岁就开始听《36 Chambers》了。
I'm nine listening to "36 Chambers."
你懂我的意思吧？
You know what I'm saying?
所以这完全是不同的成长路径——
So it's like a different walk-
不
No
……和经历。
... and experience.
不不，其实，我的朋友罗兰·弗赖尔，哈佛大学的经济学家，刚在《华尔街日报》上写了一篇文章，讨论嘻哈音乐是否对社会有负面影响。
No, no. Actually, my friend Roland Fryer, the economist at Harvard, just wrote a piece in "The Wall Street Journal" kind of on, did hip-hop have a bad influence in society?
他做这项研究的方式，结果发现，嘻哈音乐其实有正面影响，是因为没有电台播放它，所以你可以追踪那些有嘻哈音乐的城市的人群，看看他们与没有嘻哈音乐的城市相比表现如何。
And the way he did this study, which turns out, no, it had a positive influence, was because no radio stations played it, so you could track the cohorts from the cities that had hip-hop and see how they did versus the cities that didn't have hip-hop.
确实如此。
That's true.
结果发现，有嘻哈音乐的城市——
And it turns out the cities with hip-hop-
对，那种激励水平简直是——
Yeah, the inspiration level is just-
……另一个层次。
... another level.
那就是动力。
That's the drive.
你进了大学，做自己的事，现在又开始创业了。
You're getting into college, you're doing your thing, and now you're getting into entrepreneurship.
我们是怎么走到这一步的，"我要去工作..."
How did we get into, "I'm going to work at...
"我要和马克一起工作，做这些事情"？
I'm going to work with Mark and do all these things"?
我那时候不太容易成为创业者，因为到25岁时我已经结婚了。
I wasn't in position to be an entrepreneur very easily in that, by the time I was 25, I was married.
我有三个孩子。
I had three kids.
所以我只是想着怎么维持生计。
So I was just trying to keep the lights on.
那真是普通人的生活。
That's a normal life right there.
维持生计。
Keep the lights on.
那是我当时的主要目标。
That was my main thing.
而且那时候创业可不像现在这么常见。
And starting a company was a much more unusual thing in those days.
现在算是比较-
It's kind of more-
……系统化了。
... systematized now.
所以我一开始是在一家叫硅谷图形的公司当工程师，然后-
So I started as an engineer at a company called Silicon Graphics and-
是肯吗？
Was it Ken?
对，肯·科尔曼。
Yeah, Ken Coleman.
是肯把我招进去的。
Ken hired me in there.
我算是摸清了门道，学会了怎么当工程师，也学了产品管理之类的。
I kind of learned the ropes, learned how to be an engineer, learned product management, that kind of thing.
后来我就去了网景。
And I ended up going to Netscape.
好多以前在SGI的-
A lot of ex-SGI-
同事都在那儿。
... guys were there.
就是在那里我遇到了马克。
And that's where I met Mark.
那时候我还是只想...
And I was still just trying to...
能挣到钱我就挺开心的，而且-
I was happy to be making money and-
网景就上市了。
... Netscape went public.
我觉得我从那里面赚了一百万美元，简直难以置信。
I think I got a million dollars out of that, which was crazy.
我自己都不敢相信。
I couldn't even believe it.
我太有钱了。
I was so rich.
然后——
And-
你是这么想的。
So you thought.
我当时就是这么想的。
That's what I thought.
后来，Netscape被卖掉之后，马克说：“嘿，我们应该再开一家公司。”
And then, once Netscape kind of got sold, Mark is like, "Hey, we should start another company."
我从来没想过要干这种事。
It hadn't crossed my mind to do something like that.
我就问，那谁来当CEO呢？
And I was like, "Well, who's going to be the CEO?"
他说，你来当。
He's like, "You."
我说，行吧。
And I'm like, "All right."
那我就试试。
"I'll try."
天哪，我根本不懂怎么当CEO，但我就这么开始了。
Shit, I don't know anything about being CEO, but that's kind of how I got started.
这其实也反映了公司那种起伏的轨迹，最终才迎来机会。
It also actually speaks to a lot of the sinusoidal trajectory of said company that finally gets to an opportunity.
所以就像——
So like-
第一次真正踏入某个领域，总会有低谷，对吧？
... the first time you really step into something, there's going to be downs, right?
一直都是。
Always.
我认识的人里，没有谁没经历过低谷，但——
I don't know anybody who doesn't have, not just downs, but-
就像——
It's like-
……存在主义式的——
... existential-
……我们称之为“WTFIO时刻”，就是“完了，我们完蛋了”的那种感觉。
... what we call the WTFIO moment, we're fucked, it's over.
不经历这个，你根本建不成一家公司。
You can't build a company without that.
这种事一定会发生。
That happens.
很多公司倒闭，就是因为创始人扛不住那个时刻。
And a lot of companies fail just because the founders can't handle that moment.
那确实是个艰难的时刻。
It's a tough moment.
确实，我觉得这整个，我过去五年才进入投资领域，但我确实发现人是最重要的。
It's definitely, I find it to be like this whole, I'm new to the investment game over the past five years, but I do find that the people is everything.
我很擅长挑选公司。
I'm very good at picking a company.
或者说，我觉得识别优秀的人可能是一个不断演进的过程。
Or I feel like it's probably an ever-going evolution to identify great people.
你懂吗？
You know?
嗯，这真的很难，因为你对他们了解有限，而且这有点像约会，对吧？
Well, it's really hard because you only know so much about them, and it's a little like dating, right?
他们来见你的时候，都会展现出最好的一面。
They're coming, they're putting their best foot forward when they meet you.
所以你真的需要深入了解他们的背景。
So you really have to get deep into their background.
但话说回来，人就是这样，平时是一个样子，在极端压力下又是另一个样子。
But then, it's one of those things where you're one person in life, and you're another person under extreme pressure.
这两者——
Those-
……完全是两码事。
... are two different cats.
不同的人。
Different people.
对吧？
You know?
你的整个生理反应都会变得不一样。
Your whole chemistry starts working differently.
所以，人在那种情况下会怎么表现，真的，如果你没见过，你根本不知道会发生什么——
So, how people are going to perform in that situation is really, if you haven't seen it, you don't know what's going to happen-
……说实话。
... to be honest with you.
这也是为什么，不管你喜欢还是讨厌埃隆，老天保佑他，那家伙在压力下表现得非常好。
And, this is one of the reasons, Elon, love him or hate him, God bless him, that guy is very good under pressure.
他就像一头公牛。
The man is a bull.
无论压力多大，他都能发挥出色。
There's no amount of pressure where he's not going to perform.
这正是你想要的，也是为什么他可能是我们这个时代最伟大的企业家。
That is what you want, and that's why he's probably the greatest entrepreneur of our time.
所以当你跌到谷底的时候，你脑子里会冒出哪句歌词，让你觉得‘哦，我得继续走下去’？
So when you're all the way down at the extreme down, what is one bar that comes to mind as you, it was popping in your mind, but like, "Oh, I got to keep going."
嗯，可能是《Ether》里的。
Well, it's probably from "Ether."
是哪句？
What is it?
“把我丢下等死，僵硬腐烂”，纳斯的那句歌词。
"Left me for dead, stiff and rotten," the Nas line.
那种感觉就是，好吧，因为你还记得，Nas 在最低谷的时候出了《Ether》。
That's the feeling like, okay, because you remember, "Ether" came out when Nas was at his lowest.
他当时跌到了谷底，而 Jay-Z 简直是——
He was way down, and Jay-Z was literally-
他是
He was
……当时全世界最红的说唱歌手。
... the biggest rapper in the world at that point.
然后他遭到了《The Takeover》的打击，那首歌的伴奏是 Kanye 做的。
And he got hit with "The Takeover" where Kanye did the beat.
所以那真是他妈的，你知道——
So it was that fucking, you know-
……所有人都觉得——
... everybody was like-
……哇。
... wow.
然后Jay-Z在那首超棒的《Takeover》里火力全开，唱得特别猛。
And then Jay-Z rapped his ass off, that great fucking song, "Takeover."
而Nas当时处于一个说唱歌手能跌到的最低谷。
And Nas, at the bottom that any rapper could possibly be at.
然后他说了那句话：“你把我丢下等死。”
And he said it, "You left me for dead."
所以你想要的就是那种感觉，就像“现在我要推出《Ether》了。”
And so that's the feeling you want, like, "Now I'm going to come out with 'Ether.'"
当你们以为我完了的时候，我要带着《Ether》杀回来。
When you think I'm dead, I'm going to come out with "Ether."
因为我也这么想，而且现在就像——
Because I think the same thing, and now like-
……因为Kendrick，我们有了《Not Like Us》的进化版，就像《Ether 2.0》一样。
... because of Kendrick, we have "The Evolution of Not Like Us," which is like "Ether 2.0."
确实如此。
It is.
对我来说，这件事的经过有点不一样，因为Kendrick的事业当时也在走下坡路。
That's a little different one to me in the way that went down, because Kendrick's career was also on the down-
在那场对决期间。
... during that battle.
但他当时没有Nas那么低谷。
But he wasn't as far down as Nas was at the time.
但Drake就像Jay-Z一样，毫无疑问。
But Drake was like Jay-Z, there's no question.
但那更像是，“你把说唱带向了我讨厌的方向。”
But that was more, "You're taking rap in a direction I don't like."
你懂吗？
You know?
所以我必须得走出我的房间。
So I'm going to have to get out of my room.
我要好好收拾你。
I'm going to have my way with you.
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别自言自语了。
Stop talking to myself.
刚做完一整张专辑的内省。
Just did a whole album of introspection.
我要从那个状态里出来，现在就来对付你——
I'm going to come out of that, and I'm going to deal with you right now-
因为我不喜欢你。
... because I don't like you.
对我来说，这种感觉有点不一样——
That's a little different feeling for me-
但我懂你。
... but I got you.
复活。
Revive.
好，我们跑题了。
All right, so we digress.
回到大家都想听的技术话题上来。
Back to the tech thing that all y'all want to hear about.
所以，先创办公司，再卖掉公司。
So, build the company, sell the company.
我不明白为什么在那之后你几乎立刻就决定去创办一家风投公司，然后又去折腾NewMe，但跟我说说2008到2011年那段时间，你说“我要建一家风投公司”的事吧。
I don't know why nearly immediately after that, you decided to go build a venture firm, and then mess around with NewMe, but tell me about this 2008 to 2011 time where you said, "I'm going to build a venture capital firm."
而且你当时做的，跟之前那些事完全不一样。
And when you did it, it was nothing like the other stuff, really.
我是说，你接触人的方式。
I mean, the way you approached people.
为什么这些人都在这栋楼里跑来跑去？
Why are all these people running around the building?
谁是合伙人？
Who's a partner?
谁不是合伙人？
Who's not a partner?
就像——
Like-
……这栋楼里到底在发生什么？
... what's going on in this building?
你知道吗？
You know?
嗯，这个想法其实源于当初创业有多难。
Well, so the idea was, it kind of came out of how hard it was to build the company.
我一直觉得，哇，如果你是个创始人，开始做一件事，你根本不知道怎么当CEO。
And I always felt like, wow, if you're a founder and you start something, you don't know how to be a CEO.
不知道怎么建公司。
You don't know how to build a company.
而且你可能会想，至少那时候我是这么想的：“哦，风投公司会帮我解决这些问题。”
And you kind of think, at least in those days, I thought, "Oh, the venture capital firm would help me with that."
但他们其实并没有准备好做这件事。
And they weren't really set up for that idea.
他们其实特别擅长挑选创业者。
They were kind of really good at picking entrepreneurs.
他们为投资人赚了很多钱。
They made a lot of money for their LPs.
而且他们都是非常聪明的人，但要建立一家公司，你得觉得自己能经营公司。
And they were very smart guys, but, to build a company, you need to feel like you can run a company.
这意味着你得能联系上重要人物。
And that means you got to be able to call important people.
你得有个人能聊，真正懂你正在经历什么，能帮你解决问题。
You've got to be able to have somebody to talk to who really knows what you're going through, who can help you with things.
你得能调动一支招聘大军。
You need to be able to turn on a recruiting army.
现在，你还得能处理政策问题之类的事情。
These days, you got to be able to deal with policy issues and this kind of stuff.
所以，安德森·霍洛维茨背后的想法其实就是：'哇，如果我们不是为投资人，而是为创业者打造一个更好的产品会怎么样？'
And so, the idea behind Andreessen Horowitz was really like, "Wow, what if we made a better product, not for LPs, but for entrepreneurs?"
首先你得放弃很多薪水，因为你要用那些管理费来搭建这个平台，帮助创业者建立他们的公司。
The first thing you have to do is forego a lot of your salary, because you have to take the fee monies and build this platform to help entrepreneurs build their company.
这大概就是最初的构想。
And that was kind of the initial idea with it.
我们一直认为，能给创业者提供的最有价值的东西，就是这个网络。
And then we always thought the thing that we could provide entrepreneurs that they would value most would be this network.
我们一直把公司看作一个网络。
And we always thought of the firm as a network.
所以，如果我能随时联系到任何人，这种能力会渗透到你做的所有事情里，因为你会觉得自己是个有分量的人。
And so, if I could call anybody, if that kind of bleeds into everything you do because now you feel like somebody.
这就是CEO烧烤会的初衷。
This was the idea behind the CEO barbecue.
哦，如果我去参加烧烤会，我就是我，一个普通的小创业者，然后我看到马克·扎克伯格、拉里·佩奇、坎耶·韦斯特——好吧，那我肯定也很重要。
Oh, if I go to a barbecue and I'm me, just this little entrepreneur, and then I see Mark Zuckerberg, Larry Page, Kanye West- Okay, I must be important.
我对自己有了全新的感觉，这就是这家公司理念的核心。
I feel like I have a whole other feeling about myself, and that was a lot of the idea of the firm.
因为作为一个网络，我想到的一件事是，我看着所有这些风险投资公司，发现没有一家真正与黑人群体有网络联系。
Because as a network, one of the things I thought, I was like, I'm looking at all these venture capital firms, and not any of them are networked literally into any Black people.
我知道这么说有点直白，但我想，'哇，这对我来说是个机会。'
And I know that's a crude way of saying it, but I was like, "Wow, that's an opportunity for me.
我他妈的就要建立这个网络。
I'm going to fucking build that network.
我要在硅谷建立为黑人企业家、黑人娱乐人士等一切服务的权威网络，这会给我带来巨大的优势，因为那是世界上很重要的一部分。'
I'm going to build the definitive network in Silicon Valley for Black entrepreneurs, Black entertainment people, everything, and that's going to give me a huge advantage because that's a whole important part of the world."
所以这就把我带到了Newme。
And so that brought me to Newme
好的。
Okay.
这真是个完美的过渡。
That was the perfect segue.
我当时就像在翻遍每一个角落。
Which was like, I was looking under every rock.
Newme确实是个不起眼的地方，而这位女士，Angela，经营着它，它是一个面向黑人企业家的加速器。
Newme was definitely under a rock, and so this woman, Angela, ran it, and it was an accelerator for Black entrepreneurs.
Newme里有很多人才。
There was a lot of talent in Newme.
所以有你，有Chris Bennett，Chris Lyons，还有——
So there was you, there was Chris Bennett, Chris Lyons, and-
Brian Bertine
Brian Bertine
……Nate Jones。
... Nate Jones.
Nate确实做到了。
Nate did it.
Fred Hudson，Pigeonhole。
Fred Hudson, Pigeonhole.
哦，对，Fred Hudson。
Oh, yeah, Fred Hudson.
对，就是Pigeonhole的Fred。
Fred at Pigeonhole, yeah.
我觉得那里人才济济，也很有抱负。
A lot of talent and a lot of ambition, I would say-
……从Newme出来的。
... out of Newme.
所以，这最终成了一个非常好的主意，至少对我来说是这样。
So, that ended up being a really good idea, at least for me.
我觉得对公司来说，我们也从中获益良多。
I think for the firm, we got a lot of value out of it.
我们是WonderSchool的主要投资者。
We're a major investor in WonderSchool.
我们有Chris，而且Chris现在还在这里工作。
We had Chris, and Chris still works here.
他做了很多事情。
He's done a lot of things.
内特在这里工作过一段时间。
Nate worked here for a while.
诸如此类的事情。
All those kinds of things.
所以，是的，一直以来——
So yeah, it's been-
对，对于小额投资，你得明白这一点。
Yeah, for the small investment, you have to get that.
是的，我去新美讲过两次课。
Yeah, I went, I spoke at Newme twice.
亚伦和南确实做了645。
Aaron and Nam did do 645.
亚伦出来了。
Aaron came outside.
哦，对。
Oh, yeah.
亚伦突然出现了。
Aaron popped up.
他们突然出现是为了——
They popped up to do-
就像是，“我想见见本。
... like, "I want to meet Ben.
我想看看发生了什么。”
I want to see what's going on."
他们开始了自己的事业。
They started their thing.
那挺好的。
It's good.
我当初应该雇亚伦的。
I should have hired Aaron.
对，就是克里斯·莱昂斯得到的那个，但是……
Yeah, that's the one that Chris Lyons got, but...
做风投就是选对人。
Being a VC is about picking winners.
跟我说说怎么选对人吧。
Tell me something about picking winners.
你怎么控制情绪？
How do you manage emotion?
怎么才能擅长选对人？
How do you become great at picking winners?
这事儿挺难的，因为最后真正重要的还是创业者。
It's a tricky thing because really what ends up mattering is the entrepreneur.
如果你有一套完美的评分系统，能准确判断说：“你要这个创业者还是这个想法？”
If you had a perfect rating system and you could exact go like, "Do you want this entrepreneur or this idea?"
你会选——
You would take the-
两个都要创业者
Both entrepreneur
……你每次都会选那个创业者。
... you'd take the entrepreneur every time.
问题在于，就像你说的，评估创业者很难。
The problem is, as you were saying, it's hard to evaluate entrepreneurs.
他们来的时候你对他们了解不多，也不知道他们在压力下会表现如何。
You don't know that much about them when they come in, and you don't know how they're going to perform under pressure.
所以你需要用那个想法来帮你评估创业者，比如他们为了这个想法经历了什么。
And so then you need the idea to help you evaluate the entrepreneur, like what did they go through in their life to get to that idea?
这个想法有多好，他们为此做了多少原创工作，诸如此类。
And how good an idea is it, and how much original work did they do to get there, and that kind of thing.
所以最终，那个想法就成了你观察创业者的视角。
So that ends up being the lens at which you see the entrepreneur.
现在，容易犯的错误是，因为你不喜欢那个想法，就错过了一个优秀的创业者。
Now, the mistake to make is there's something you don't like about the idea, and you pass on a great entrepreneur.
那是个错误。
That's a mistake.
或者反过来，你会觉得“这是个很棒的创业者”，但你没意识到他的想法其实不怎么样，所以——
Or vice versa, you're like, "This is a great entrepreneur," but you don't realize his idea is no good, so-
……可能没你想的那么好。
... probably not as good as you think.
所以，从这个角度来说确实挺棘手的。
So, it is tricky in that sense.
然后，对，你也不知道他们在压力下会表现如何。
And then, yeah, you don't know how they're going to perform under pressure.
还有另一件事，我们时不时都会掉进去的陷阱是，我们有很多很厉害的分析型人才，他们能找出任何想法或任何公司的问题——
And then the other thing, the other trap that we all get into from time to time is we have all these great analytical people, and they'll be able to figure out everything that's wrong with any idea or any company-
……或者任何创业者的问题。
... or any entrepreneur.
但那并不是关键。
But that's not what matters.
关键的是，他们的优势是不是世界级的。
What matters is, are their strengths world-class?
那他们在某方面是不是世界顶尖的？
So are they the best in the world at something?
然后其他方面你就可以忽略了。
And then you overlook everything else.
回到埃隆的例子，他确实有些性格上的问题。
Going back to Elon, he's got some personality issues.
他时不时会惹人生气，但他的优势太突出了——
He upsets people from time to time, but his strength is so ridiculous-
以至于你每次都会愿意押注在他身上，我觉得你要看的是这个优势有多大。
... that you would put money on that every time, and I think you want to look at the magnitude of the strength.
我觉得每个能到我们这里的创业者都挺不错的。
And I think that every entrepreneur we see who gets to us is pretty good.
但他们是不是出类拔萃？
But are they outstanding?
他们是不是在这方面比所有人都强？
Are they better than everybody else at this?
这才是让一家公司伟大的原因，也是让一个创业者伟大的原因。
And that's what makes a company great, and that's what makes an entrepreneur great.
不是看他们不会这个，或者他们不懂财务，或者他们营销方面很笨。
Not, oh, they don't know how to do this, or wow, they know nothing about finance, or they're whatever they're dumb with marketing.
每个创业者身上都有很多问题。
There's so many things that are wrong with every entrepreneur.
每个伟大的创业者都有一些严重的缺点，
Every great entrepreneur has got something horribly wrong-
但这没关系。
... with them, but that's okay.
好的。
Okay.
关键是，他们在自己擅长的领域是否真的出类拔萃？
It's, are they truly great at what they're great at?
当你考虑选人的时候，你会想："嗯，那些方面不太好，但这个人会有所作为。"
When you think about picking the person and be like, "Well, those things, not so good, but this person's going to make some moves."
确实在硅谷引起了轩然大波，但公司文化上对特朗普竞选的支持也招来了一些反弹。
Definitely sent waves through Silicon Valley, but blowback from the culture on the firm kind of getting behind the Trump campaign to some degree.
而且——
And-
所以当你考虑这种事情时，你会怎么想？是觉得自己知道别人不知道的信息，所以这个人会胜出，还是认为这个人就是赢家，所以我要跟赢家一起玩？
... so when you think about something like that, do you think about it as, well, I know something some people don't, so this person's going to arise as the winner, or this person is the winner, and so I'm going to play the game with the winner.
是前者还是后者？你如何看待这个决策过程？
Is the former or the latter, how do you think about the decision-making?
哦，关于特朗普那件事，我们尽量保持非政治化，但我们在拜登政府那里遇到了两个大问题。
Oh, with the Trump thing, we try to be as apolitical as possible, but we had run into massive problem with the Biden administration on kind of two fronts.
一个是加密货币，另一个是人工智能。
One was crypto, and then the other was AI.
在加密货币方面，他们没有明令禁止，而是采取了一些法律之外的手段。
So on crypto, they didn't outlaw, so they did these extra legal things.
他们把所有的加密货币创业者都赶出了银行体系。
So they kicked all the crypto entrepreneurs out of the banking system.
他们用威尔斯通知来打击他们，那些通知其实是对一些根本没有定义的事情的假诉讼。
They hit them with Wells notices that were fake lawsuits on things that were just undefined.
所以我们试图让他们明白，'能不能给我们一些法律？'
And so we were trying to get them to like, "Can we just have some laws?
'能不能有一些监管？'
Can we have some regulation?"
但他们把所有这些都挡了回去，就是攻击这个行业，因为他们不想要它。
And they blocked all of that, and they just kind of attacked the industry because they didn't want it.
所以我们被困在那里，但更大的问题是，我们和这届政府没有关系，也建立不起来。
And so we were stuck there, but the bigger problem around that was we didn't have a relationship With the administration, we couldn't get one.
这让我快疯了，因为我给我认识的每个人都打了电话，试图说，'能不能让我们见见拜登？'
And it drove me crazy, because I called everybody I knew to try and like, "Can we get a meeting with Biden?"
有人说我傲慢，说'你凭什么要求见总统？'
And people call me arrogant, like, "Who are you to ask for a meeting with the president?"
你觉得你配见拜登吗？
Do you deserve a meeting with Biden?
但是后来我发现，我跟谷歌的桑达尔聊过，也跟礼来的戴夫·瑞克斯聊过。
But, then I come to find out, so I spoke to Sundar at Google, I spoke to Dave Ricks at Eli Lilly.
没人能见到拜登。
Nobody had it.
蒂姆·库克。
Tim Cook.
整整四年，没人能跟拜登见上一面。
Nobody got a meeting with Biden the whole four years.
然后同样的事情在AI领域又发生了，拜登政府最后一道行政令甚至规定，未经政府事先批准，出售GPU就是违法的。
And then the same thing happened to us in AI, where they went as far as the last executive order from the Biden administration was to say it's illegal to sell a GPU without prior government approval for that sale.
所以这基本上就把我们从芯片层面的AI竞争中踢出去了。
So, it would've literally taken us out of the AI competition at the chip level.
我们决定的是，好吧，我们得跟下一任总统搞好关系。
The thing that we decide is, okay, we've got to have a relationship with who's ever the next president.
当时我们在科技领域支持特朗普，他显然会打败拜登。
And at the time we endorsed Trump on tech, he was clearly going to beat Biden.
这毫无疑问。
There was no question.
然后——
Then-
卡玛拉出现了。
Kamala came around
……
...
卡玛拉出现了，所以就想，好吧，万一她赢了呢？
Kamala came around, and so it was like, okay, what if she wins?
我们知道和拜登不会有关系，所以也没什么可失去的。
We knew we weren't going to have a relationship with Biden, so there was nothing to lose.
至于卡玛拉，我认识她。
With Kamala, I had known Kamala.
卡玛拉来过CEO烧烤会。
Kamala came to the CEO barbecue.
她来过我家很多次，所以我当然认识她。
She'd been in my house many times, so of course, I knew her.
然后我给她打了电话，实际上我还为竞选写了一项科技政策。
And I called her up and I actually wrote a tech policy for the campaign.
他们不想在科技政策上表态，这让我有点紧张，说实话，但为了建立关系，我们还是给她捐了款。
They didn't want to take a tech policy position, which that made me nervous, I got to be quite honest with you on, but on that, we made a donation to her just so that we would have a relationship there.
只要你涉足政治，总会有人不高兴。
Anytime you're involved in politics, people are going to be mad.
现在他们生Nicki Minaj的气。
They're mad at Nicki Minaj now.
他们生Kanye的气。
They're mad at Kanye.
从我的立场来看，我必须为新兴科技公司创造有利的环境。
From my position, I have to make the world work for new tech companies.
作为大型风投，这是我们的责任。
That is our responsibility as kind of the big VC.
对我来说，这可能不是我能做的决定，但我也不坐在你的位置上。
For me, probably not a decision I could make, but I'm not sitting in your position either.
我也不把一栋大楼当成赚钱机器来经营。
I also don't run a big building as a money machine.
这有两面性。
There's two different sides to that.
我们换个角度看。
Let's look at it this way.
从你的视角来看，你来自真正的嬉皮士文化，这里是硅谷。
From your vantage, you come from real hippie, this is Silicon Valley.
人们在大街上跑来跑去，可能连鞋都不穿。
People's running around in the streets, probably no shoes on.
那就是硅谷，对吧？
That Silicon Valley, right?
不，以前不是这样的。
No, it used to be different.
所以，那个硅谷，可以说是表面上的包容。
So, that Silicon Valley was, let's call it performatively inclusive.
实际上它是排外的。
It was exclusive.
所以我们才做了Numi和那些东西。
Hence, is why we did Numi and all these things.
你可以参与，但又不完全算，因为那是一种门槛。
You could be involved, but kind of not because it was a thing.
但现在我们处于一种表面排外、实际上却是包容的好时机，因为AI让开发能力变得大众化了。
But now we're kind of in the space of performatively exclusive, but it's quite the special- ... time for it to be inclusive because AI has commoditized the ability to build.
你懂我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
那些能——
People who-
完全同意。
100%.
那些原本没机会参与的人，现在也能成为专家，做到最好。
... were otherwise not in the game can now be the expert and be the best.
我是说，我上过麻省理工。
I mean, I went to MIT.
好，那我对这段历史有不同的看法。
Okay, so I have a little different version of the history.
好。
Okay.
所以——
So-
你有你的历史版本，我就不跟你争了。
And you got the history, so I'm not going to argue the history.
那说来听听。
So let's hear.
我觉得在早期，80年代想进科技行业的只有犹太人、华人和印度人，而且都是男的。
So I think in the early days, the only people who wanted to be in tech in the '80s were Jews, Chinese, and Indians, men.
当时主修计算机科学并从事这类工作的女性或其他人真的很少。
There were just very few women who majored in computer science who did anything like that or anybody else.
而肯是非常特别的。
And Ken was super exceptional.
科技当时并不吸引人。
Tech wasn't sexy.
它并不是为了排外而设立的。
It wasn't built to be exclusive.
它就像是，这些就是参与其中的人。
It was like, these are the people who are participating.
我知道自己擅长什么。
I know what I'm good at.
我非常看重这一点。
I value it highly.
我可以在面试中测试这一点。
I can test for it in an interview.
我就是在招我自己这样的人。
I'm hiring me.
一般来说就是这么回事。
That's just generally how it goes.
所以一旦你从那个方向开始，事情就会——
So once you start that way, that's how it-
……这样发展下去。
... grows.
不是说别人进不来，但能进来的都是像肯那样特别出色的人。
And not that nobody can get in, but the people that get in are hyper exceptional, like Ken.
我觉得这和嘻哈音乐没什么两样，对吧？
I feel like it's not that different than hip-hop, right?
阿姆能进来，但那得是非常高的水平。
Eminem can get in, but that's a very high level.
特别出色。
Hyper exceptional.
那是一个非常——
That's a very-
……高得离谱的水平，才能成为埃米纳姆。
... fucking high level to be Eminem.
天哪，那家伙真是……
Jesus Christ, that guy is...
但如果你是个平庸的白人男性，你根本没机会。
But if you're a mediocre white guy, you got no chance.
对。
No.
部分原因是你被调教成——
And some of that is because you get tuned to-
是媒体、文化，这些东西——
It's the media, it's the culture, how things-
……
...
我经常跟别人说这个。
I always tell people this.
我说，当我解释人们如何自我选择以及媒体如何塑造我们的世界观时，我会说：‘如果我穿着这样走进房间，而下一个进来的人戴着口袋保护套和眼镜，说话也不利索，那谁是更好的开发者？’
I say, when I'm explaining how people self-select and how the media's shaped our worldview, I'd be like, "If I come in the room dressed like this, and the next guy comes in the room with a pocket protector and glasses and can't talk well, who's the better developer?"
没错。
Exactly.
哦，是我。
Oh, it's me.
所以你知道的。
So you know.
对，你必须克服这一点。
Yeah, you have to overcome that.
你必须克服这一点。
You have to overcome that.
当然。
For sure.
所以我觉得我们当时做的就是，我们说，'你看，你了解你自己，但你不知道你缺少哪些技能，而且你根本不知道怎么去测试这些技能。'
So I think that what we did is we said, "Look, you know you, but you don't know the skills you don't have, and you have no idea how to test for them.
而且你甚至不知道这些技能存在。
And you have no idea that they even exist."
那我们怎么解决这个问题呢？
So how do we get around that?
所以我们创建了这个招聘流程，让不同背景的人来看每个职位描述，然后说，'嘿，如果我是招聘者，我会关注这些方面。'
And so we created this hiring process where we have people from different backgrounds look at every job profile and go, "Hey, if I was hiring that, I would look at these things."
你需要一个擅长处理人际关系的人。
You need a relationship person.
实际上，我们招到克里斯的过程是这样的：这本来是个很需要人际关系的职位，但招聘经理之前是投资银行家。
Actually, how we got Chris was, it was really a relationship job, but the hiring manager had been an investment banker.
所以他用的全是投资银行家的标准。
So he had all these investment banker criteria.
要是认识克里斯·莱昂斯的人都知道，他肯定过不了那个测试。
And if anybody knows Chris Lyons, knows he would flunk that test.
但我就说，'可这是个关系型的工作啊。'
But I was like, "Well, but this is a relationship job."
'所以咱们得找擅长处理关系的人。'
"So let's look for people who are relationship people."
然后我就觉得，他绝对是世界级的关系高手，非常厉害。
And I was like, he is a world-class relationship guy, really good.
正因为我们按这个标准——也就是这个岗位真正需要的标准——招了他，所以他一入职，我们就清楚当初为什么选他。
And so because we hired him on that criteria, which was the right criteria for that job, that meant once he got on board, we knew why we hired him.
如果我们当初以为招他是为了做财务建模——
If we had thought that we hired him for financial modeling-
对，继续。
Yeah, go
……而且他是黑人，那他可能永远都升不了职。
... and he was Black, he would never have got promoted.
他现在已经升了大概八次了。
He's been promoted like eight times.
那是因为我们知道他是谁，对吧？
And that's because we know what he is, right?
我们知道他身上的特别之处。
We know the special thing that he has.
从理念上讲，我觉得正确的做法是拓宽标准，而不是降低标准，而是提高标准。
Philosophically, I think the right answer is you really want to widen the bar, not lower the bar, raise the bar.
你要拓宽标准，这样你就能看到那份工作需要的所有条件，即使你自己不具备。
You want to widen the bar so that you can see all the criteria that you would need in that job, even if you don't have it.
你必须按照同样的标准被录用。
You have to get hired on the same criteria.
我记得我去找工程师工作的时候。
I remember when I went to get a job as an engineer.
当时有个时刻——
So there was a moment-
……
...
我去应聘了一份工程师的工作，做了一年。
I went to get a job for an engineer for a year.
而且我是那里唯一的黑人。
And I'm the only Black person there.
我当时就想，"行吧。"
I was like, "Cool."
我当时就想，"这里的人说话都疯疯癫癫的。"
I was like, "All these people are talking crazy in here."
这个人上班时对我说话阴阳怪气的。
This person is talking sideways to me at work.
现在我明白为什么这样不行了，因为如果你不把流程弄好，就建立不起真正的文化。
Now I understand why this doesn't work, because if you don't run a process properly, you end up not being able to build a real culture.
这些人——
These people-
……其实根本没法一起工作。
... actually can't work together.
他们互相不尊重。
They don't respect each other.
他们都不知道为什么雇你。
They don't know why they hired you.
你说是不是？
You know?
真是疯了。
It's just crazy.
嗯，有个好笑的故事。
Well, there's a funny story.
我和Stout有过一次很奇怪的对话，他打电话给我。
I had this crazy conversation with Stout and he calls me up.
他说：“Ben，我以前是索尼城市音乐的总裁。”
He goes, "Ben, I used to be president of Sony Urban Music."
我说：“对，Steve。”
And I was like, "Yeah, Steve."
是史蒂夫，他说话声音很大。
It's Steve, he's talking loud.
我就说：“我知道。”
And I was like, "I know."
然后他说：“对，但那不是城市音乐，那是黑人音乐。”
And he goes, "Yeah, but it wasn't urban music, it was Black music.
他们让我叫它城市音乐，是为了听起来不 racist。”
They made me call it urban music to not sound racist."
我就说：“哦，天哪。”
And I was like, "Oh, shit.
那太蠢了。”
That was stupid."
他说：“不不不，蠢的地方在于，因为我们叫它城市音乐，我就不能在农村地区推广，好像所有黑人都住在城里似的。”
And he's like, "No, no, no. The stupid part was because we called it urban music, I wasn't allowed to market in rural areas, like all Black people live in the city."
我说：“那真是蠢透了。”
I was like, "That's dumb shit."
然后他说："不，我觉得你根本没在认真听。"
And he's like, "No, I don't even think you're listening very carefully.
我是索尼城市音乐的总裁。
I was president of Sony Urban Music.
我签了迈克尔·杰克逊，但白人不喜欢迈克尔·杰克逊。"
I had Michael Jackson, but white people don't like Michael Jackson."
"那根本不是什么黑人音乐，那就是音乐。"
"It wasn't fucking Black music, it was music."
但是那个分类把它搞得比实际更小了——
But the program for it made it smaller than it was-
……而不是更大。
... not bigger than it was.
然后我就想，我们在硅谷就是这么干的。
And I was like, that's what we did in Silicon Valley.
我们有城市人力资源。
We had urban HR.
不是的，这是才华。
It's like no, it's talent.
不是黑人的才华，就是才华。
It's not Black talent, it's talent.
你只需要能够看到才华。
You just have to be able to see the talent.
你得能听懂音乐。
You've got to be able to listen to the music.
然后现在情况反过来了，就像你说的。
And then now it's gone the other way, as you said.
我同意这一点。
I agree with that.
就好像，哦，这是精英制度。
It's like, oh, it's a meritocracy.
那是什么意思呢？
Well, what does that mean?
好吧，那我就雇我自己。
Well, I'm going to hire me.
然后就像，行吧。
And it's like, okay.
但我觉得这对我们在风险投资领域来说是个很大的优势。
But I think it's been a big advantage for us in venture capital.
你知道的。
You know this.
我们能接触到那些他们永远接触不到的人。
We get to people that they're never getting to.
因为我们有能做那些事的人，而他们不会雇这些人，不是因为种族问题，而是因为他们看不到这些人。
Because we've got people who can do those things that they won't hire because they can't, it's not a racist thing, it's they can't see them.
他们看不到。
They can't see it.
他们看不到这些人。
They can't see them.
他们是盲的。
They're blind.
他们是人才盲。
They're talent blind.
我们所有人都是人才盲，这就是为什么你需要一个流程和一个——
And all of us are talent blind, that's why you need a process and a-
对，你需要一个流程——
Yeah, you need a process-
……和一个方法论来——
... and a methodology to-
……来扩大你的视野之类的。
... to up your aperture and stuff.
玛吉特，传奇的玛吉特·温马克，正在为我们负责市场营销，而且——
Margit, the legendary Margit Wenmark, is running marketing for us, and-
哦，她是——
Oh, she's-
我当时就想——
I was like-
……她一直都在。
... been around forever.
她从一开始就在，对吧？
She's here at the beginning, right?
从最开始就在。
From the very beginning.
我记得第一次见到她的时候，我心里想：‘天哪，我以后也需要一个这样的人。’
I remember when I met her, I was like, "Oh, man, I need someone like this one day."
她手下全是女员工。
She had all women working for her.
我就问她：‘玛吉特，为什么没有男人能通过你的标准？你要求里到底有什么他们达不到的？’
I was like, "Margit, why can't any men pass your, what's in your profile they can't fucking qualify for?"
她说：‘乐于助人。’
She's like, "Helpfulness."
她说得对。
It's like she's right.
但想想看，把那个作为标准。
But think about that as a criteria.
在风险投资里，这有多重要？
How valuable is that in venture capital?
每个人都想要一个乐于助人的风险投资人。
Everybody wants a venture capitalist who's helpful.
而且我知道怎么面试考察这一点等等。
But I know how to interview for that and so forth.
所以通过发展这一点，当时我们主要是男性。
And so by developing that, at the time, we were predominantly men.
现在，我觉得我们大概有54%是女性，但我们当时没有任何针对女性的标准。
Now, I think we're like 54% women, but we didn't have any women criteria.
我们只是把乐于助人作为标准。
We just had helpfulness as a criterion.
这些变化会让你变得更强大。
And these are the things that change, that make you stronger.
你并没有妥协。
You're not compromising.
你实际上通过能够看到——变得更好。
You're actually getting better by being able to see-
或者说你获得了更多的能力。
Or you get more capacity.
如果你能看到所有的人才，我们都在人才争夺战中，都在竞争人才。
If you can see all the talent, we're all in a talent war, we're all competing for talent.
如果你能看到更多的人才，你就会赢。
If you can see more talent, you're going to win.
我们快要到高潮了，就像，好吧，现在我们有AI了。
We're getting to the climax here in terms of like, all right, now we have AI.
我其实有点手痒，感觉现在没有在搞建设。
I'm actually feeling a little bit of an itch like I'm not building right now.
我真的没法一天不写点代码或者做点东西，因为——
I literally can't make it through a day without generating some code or building something, because-
对，太疯狂了。
Yeah, it's crazy
……确实疯狂，对吧？
... it's crazy, right?
我可以在手机上用云代码，就像现在，比如说——
I can be on cloud code on my phone, and it's like now, for instance-
顺便说一句，我跟德肖恩聊过。
By the way, I was talking to Deshaun.
他突然就变成工程师了。
He became an engineer all of a sudden.
不，但我跟德肖恩说了，我说：“嘿，兄弟，你根本不用雇人来做这些东西。”
No, but I told Deshaun, I was like, "Hey, man, you don't have to hire anybody to build this stuff."
他说：“好吧。
He's like, "All right.
我这就上手试试。
I'ma hop in."
现在他上瘾了。
And now he's addicted.
他上瘾了。
He's addicted.
他就像，哇哦。
He's like, ooh.
他简直疯了。
He's out of his mind.
我这儿有个代理，我这儿有个代理。
I got an agent here, I got an agent here.
我只有四个人，但也许我能把它变成两个。
I only got four people, but maybe I can make it two.
就像他真的——
Like he's really-
他简直就像个AI瘾君子。
He's almost like a AI fiend.
他就是个AI瘾君子。
He's AI fiend.
说实话，我觉得以后会有AI康复中心。
Literally, I think there's going to be AI rehab at some point.
因为就像现在，如果你不能强迫自己，如果你晚上躺在床上不跟自己说“快睡觉”，那你就不算沉迷，因为——
Because it's like if you, right now, if you can't force it, if you're not in your bed at night like, "Go to sleep," then you're not on it, because like-
……能做的事情太多了。
... there's so much that can be done.
太疯狂了。
It's crazy.
但我想说的是，回到更大的机会窗口这个话题，现在我们可以为那些以前不适合的人打开一片新天地。
But I guess my point is that going back to the larger aperture of opportunity here, now we can open up the stratosphere for people who would not have been a fit before.
如果我找到你，我这辈子从没做过产品，也从没在科技公司工作过。
If I come to you, I've never built a product in my life, I've never worked at a tech company.
哦，对。
"Oh, yeah.
我在一家石油和天然气公司工作过。
I worked at this oil and gas company.
我确实知道这个流程是可行的。
I really know this process works.
我要创办这家公司。
I'm going to build this company."
很难接受这可能会成功。
It'd be hard to accept that this might work.
哦，对。
Oh, yeah.
但现在你可以这样——
But now you could be like-
你可以很快从想法变成公司。
You can go from idea to company very fast.
他们会带着产品出现的。
They're going to show up with the product.
不用招人就能做到。
Without being able to hire.
以前那些障碍现在都不存在了。
All the barriers that were there before aren't there.
我完全同意。
I 100% agree.
所以我觉得现在更重要的是让更多人进入科技行业，因为他们连科技的门都没进。
That's why I think it's more important to get people into tech because they're not even getting into tech.
他们只是有了想法而已。
They're just getting into ideas.
就像，好吧，这里是……
It's like, okay, here is...
顺便说一下，这正在每个……
And this is, by the way, it's happening in every...
现在创造力才是最重要的。
Creativity is now the big thing.
创造力就是关键。
Creativity is the thing.
如果你会用这些工具，你只需要有创意就行了。
If you can use the tools, all you need to do is be creative.
这个机会可能更大，因为，对，你只要有想法，就能做出来。
This opportunity is probably even bigger because, right, any idea you have, you can make.
你可以把它变成现实。
You can manifest.
我们俩都在互联网刚兴起的时候经历过。
We both were around when the internet began.
那时候用BBS论坛、Prodigy.net这些。
Was on BBS boards and prodigy.net, and all these things.
你懂我的意思吧？
You know what I mean?
就像——
Like-
CompuServe。
CompuServe.
对，都是那些。
Yeah, all that.
上百万张小小的光盘——
A million little disks-
……到处乱放。
... sitting around.
你知道吗？
You know?
AOL以前他妈的给你寄光盘。
AOL used to fucking send a disk to you.
你打开邮件都躲不开——
You couldn't open your mail without-
不收到一张都不行。
Without getting one
……收到一张AOL的盘。
... getting an AOL disk.
打开麦片盒，'哦，是AOL的。'
A cereal box, "Oh, it's AOL."
那时候内存……
Memory was-
不，我以为是玩具呢。
No, I was expecting a toy.
那时候内存可不好弄。
Memory was hard to come by back then.
我以前经常去商店。
I used to go to the store.
我会拿一盒回来，然后说，'你的鞋放不进去吗？'
I used to get a box of them and just like, "Can't put your shoe in that?"
现在我就录在那个上面。
Now I record on that.
但那时候互联网已经很厉害了。
But the internet was big.
我们俩能在这儿聊上，全靠它。
That's how we both got to this conversation right here.
但对我来说，这个更厉害。
But to me, this is bigger.
这就像第四次工业革命。
This is like the fourth industrial revolution.
你觉得呢——
What's your-
确实更厉害。
It's bigger.
大家都在聊人工智能——
People talk about AI-
我觉得这明显比互联网影响更大。
I think it's clearly bigger than the internet.
人们把它当成一个行业来讨论。
People talk about it like it's a sector.
我们说的是，哦，它像加密货币一样是个泡沫。
We're talking about, oh, it's a bubble like crypto.
我就觉得，加密货币是个东西，是个工具，但它不是AI。
I'm like, "Crypto is a thing, it's a conduit, but it ain't AI."
AI就是新的计算机。
AI is the new computer.
就像计算机被重新发明了一样。
It's like the reinvention of the computer.
想象一下，整个计算机行业被发明出来，但不是在80年里慢慢发展，而是在两年内就完成了。
Imagine the entire computer industry got invented, but instead of it developing ... over 80 years that developed over two years.
然后那就是AI，而且它在此基础上更强大。
And then that's AI, and then it's more powerful on top of that.
你觉得能解决的问题，就一定能解决。
Anything you think you can solve, you can solve.
我们已经看到了。
We've already seen it.
人们太习以为常了，因为他们总担心天网什么的，但交通事故死亡，大问题，被Waymo解决了。
People are taking it so for granted because they're so worried about Skynet or whatever, but traffic deaths, huge problem, solved with Waymo.
癌症，我们肯定也在解决。
Cancer, we're solving that for sure.
现在任何想法，任何大问题，都在用AI解决。
Any idea, any major problem is getting figured out with AI right now.
太不可思议了。
It is wild.
所以，作为创业者，就是找个问题。
So, as an entrepreneur, it's like just find a problem.
然后你去解决它，人们会兴奋，愿意付钱，你就有了生意。
And you can go solve it, and people will be fired up and willing to pay you, and you've got a business.
就是这么强大。
It is that powerful.
所以你经历过泡沫，真正的泡沫。
So you've been through a bubble, like a real bubble.
钱投出去了，就再也回不来了。
There's money going out here that ain't coming back to people.
那现在这个泡沫体现在哪里？
Where is the bubble-esque part of this?
我不担心这个，但那些说泡沫的人，泡沫的部分到底在哪儿？
I don't be concerned with it, but for everybody who's talking about a bubble, where's the bubble component to this situation?
你得记住，互联网泡沫那会儿。
You've got to remember, right, the internet bubble.
现在互联网还在。
Well, the internet's here.
还挺重要的。
It's kind of important.
你本来可以靠它赚很多钱的。
You could've made a lot of money on it.
看看泡沫是怎么来的，互联网泡沫的根源在于技术进步及其推进方式，然后还有——
Look where bubbles come from, and where the internet bubble came from is there's technology and how that advances, and then there's-
稳定化
Stabilization
……消费者采纳，这个过程是断断续续的。
... consumer adoption, and that goes more in fits and starts.
然后还有投资者的情绪。
And then there's investor sentiment.
投资者就像躁郁症患者一样。
And investors are manic depressive.
他们先是过度兴奋，然后又彻底沮丧。
They get overexcited, and then they get totally depressed.
哦，这永远成不了事。
Oh, this is never going to work.
所以我觉得现在投资者那边有点跟泡沫相反的情况。
So there's a kind of an opposite of the bubble going on right now, I think, a little bit with investors.
但在互联网时代，投资者们觉得：“互联网，这是有史以来最伟大的东西。
But in the internet time, what happened was investors were like, "The internet, it's the biggest thing ever.
我要把所有的钱都投进去，而且它的价格永远不会跌。”
I'm putting all my money in it, and it's never going to go down in price."
问题是，他们决定这么做的时候，互联网用户大概只有五六千万。
Okay, the problem was the time they decided to do that, there was like 50 or 60 million people on the internet.
其中一半还在用拨号上网。
Half of them were on dial-up.
建设这些东西的成本非常高。
It was very expensive to build these things.
市场还不够大，没法靠卖人们想出的那些点子来赚钱。
There wasn't a big enough market to make money in selling a lot of the ideas that people had.
所以，这个泡沫就破灭了。
So, the thing crashed down.
不过说实话，现在ChatGPT也没赚什么钱。
I mean, arguably right now, though, ChatGPT ain't making no money.
这些公司都在想：“Gemini、ChatGPT都免费送。
These cats are like, "Gemini, ChatGPT giving it away for free.
我们怎么追上Anthropic？”
How can we catch up with Anthropic?
那就继续加大算力投入呗。”
Just keep running this compute up."
嗯，有点道理。
Well, kind of.
OpenAI从零做到了200亿美元——
OpenAI went zero to $20 billion-
很快。
Quick
——从2022年11月到现在。
... since November 2022.
顺便说一句，token的价格正在下降——
And by the way, the price of a token is dropping-
是的，确实如此
It's, yeah
——每年下降一百倍。
... a hundredfold a year.
得等到那个交叉点。
Got to wait for that crossover.
你看，消费者采用的速度比我们见过的任何东西都快。
Look, consumer adoption is going faster than anything we've ever seen.
这项技术有效，而且进展速度和我们见过的所有事物一样快。
The technology works and is advancing as fast as everything we've seen.
而且人们会不会——因为我们现在处于周期的早期，有些公司现在处于有利位置，但未来会有技术变革，它们会被淘汰。
And are people going to get-- Because we're so early in the cycle, there are companies that are in a good position now that there will be a technological change, and they'll get wiped out.
但对我来说，那并不算是真正的泡沫。
But that's not really a bubble to me.
那只是——
That's just-
这就是——
That's the-
投资而已。
... investing.
事情就是这样。
That's just how it goes.
这是时代的一部分。
That's part of the times.
有人会说：“哦，对英伟达芯片的需求是人为的。”
People were trying to say, "Oh, the demand for NVIDIA chips is artificial.
他们只是在投资公司，而这就是……
They're just investing in companies and that's where..."
目前对英伟达芯片的需求简直是无限的。
The demand for NVIDIA chips right now is just unlimited.
他们根本造不出足够的芯片。
They can't make enough chips.
这确实是事实。
That is actually true.
所以我觉得很多关于AI泡沫的说法其实都不太对。
And so a lot of the narratives around the AI bubble, I just think, aren't correct.
那未来会不会出现泡沫呢？
Now, will we hit a bubble at some point?
对，很有可能。
Yeah, quite possibly.
你看，我们之前有过带宽泡沫。
Look, we had a bandwidth bubble.
2001年的时候就有过带宽泡沫。
A bandwidth bubble in 2001.
那时候带宽过剩了。
We had too much bandwidth.
这怎么可能呢？
How could that even be possible?
我们才刚处于互联网的初期阶段。
We're at the beginning days of the internet.
怎么可能会有带宽过剩呢？
How could you have too much bandwidth?
瓶颈转移了。
Well, the bottleneck moved.
之前是带宽瓶颈，后来变成了服务器性能不够。
We had a bandwidth bottleneck, and then that became, oh, the servers weren't good enough.
我们甚至无法足够快地传输数据，
We couldn't even put the bits on fast enough-
来支持视频播放。
... to serve the video.
如果我们没有足够的电力或冷却设施等，GPU确实可能会出现暂时的过剩。
We quite possibly could have a temporary glut in GPUs if we don't have enough power or cooling or whatever.
那显然是有可能的。
That's obviously possible.
所以，AI最大的不同之处在于，在我这一代以及每一代，你都不能靠砸钱解决问题。
So the big thing that's different about AI is in my generation and in every generation, you could not throw money at a problem.
如果我想追上你和你的公司，我说：“我明天就雇1000名工程师。”
If I want to catch you and your company, and I said, "I'm going to hire 1,000 engineers tomorrow."
现在，我有数据，我买足够的GPU，我就能解决问题。
Now, I have data, and I buy enough GPUs, I can solve shit.
对我来说，最典型的例子就是OpenAI收入达到100亿，而埃隆创办了xAI。
And the greatest example to me is OpenAI got to 10 billion in revenue, and Elon started xAI.
哦，对。
Oh, yeah.
而且他在几年内几乎就和他们产品持平了。
And he's almost at product parity with them in a couple of years.
不过，这个位置很重要。
This is an important position, though.
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