人工智能未来的职位

今天《AI每日简报》聊聊这个新智能时代下的工作岗位。

Today on the AI Daily Brief, the job positions of this new agentic future.

《AI每日简报》是一档每天更新的播客和视频节目，聚焦AI领域最重要的新闻和讨论。

The AI Daily Brief is a daily podcast and video about the most important news and discussions in AI.

好了，各位朋友。

All right, friends.

在正式开始之前，先说几件事。

Quick announcements before we dive in.

首先，感谢今天节目的赞助商：Robots and Pencils、Retool、Blitzy 和 Airtable。

First of all, thank you to today's sponsors, Robots and Pencils, Retool, Blitzy, and Airtable.

想收听无广告版本？请访问 patreon.com/aideallybrief，或者在 Apple 播客订阅我们。

To get an ad free version of the show, go to patreon.com/aideallybrief, or you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts.

如果你对赞助节目感兴趣，欢迎发邮件到 sponsors@aideallybrief.ai 告诉我们。

And if you wanna learn more about sponsoring the show, send us a note at sponsors@aideallybrief.ai.

今天，我们再次来探讨一下未来的工作。

Today, we are once again turning to the future of jobs.

这期节目不是在探讨哪些行业或岗位会被AI取代，也不是像我一个多月前那期讲AI创造全新岗位的内容。

This episode is not about exploring what industries or types of roles are going to be displaced by AI, nor is it exactly like my episode from a month or two ago about the entirely net new roles that are going to be created by AI.

这期想聊的是工作方式的新变化，以及人们开始注意到的、随着AI深入发展，岗位职责正在如何演变的几种模式。

Instead, this one is about new ways of working and some patterns that people are starting to observe about how the roles of jobs are changing as we get deeper into AI.

很明显，这一切都基于一个根本转变：从亲自做工作，变成管理那些替你做事的智能代理。

Now, obviously, a lot of this is predicated on the meta shift from doing a job to managing agents that do that job.

我觉得，这对所有岗位来说都会是大趋势——人们会开始思考，自己每天或每周做的那些事，有多少能更高效地交给一组代理来执行。

That, I think, is going to be a big part of the common shift for all roles is a process of people exploring how much of what they do on any given day or in any given week can be more effectively outsourced to teams of agents that actually do the execution.

然后反过来问：在代理接手之后，这个岗位真正剩下的核心价值是什么？

And then working backwards from that, what is the actual substance of the role that remains?

就像AI领域的很多事一样，我们这些非技术人员，常常在观察开发者和技术人员的做法，试着把他们的经验套用到自己的岗位上。

Likewise, as with a lot in AI, a big part of what us nontechnical users are doing is looking over at the developers and technical users and trying to map their experience back onto the types of roles that we have.

这期节目特别受Cloud Code的创始人Boris Cherny一条推文的启发。

Now this particular episode was inspired by a very specific tweet from Cloud Code creator Boris Cherny.

上个月底，他写道：当工程、产品、设计、数据科学这些角色逐渐融合成一种新类型时，我在思考未来的工作会是什么样子。

At the end of last month, he wrote, as engineering product design, DS, etcetera, melt into a new kind of role, I was reflecting on what roles might look like in the future.

比如，当我观察Claude Code团队时，我看到了五种典型角色。

For example, when I look at the Claude Code team, I see what I think is five archetypes.

第一种是原型设计师，他们不断提出全新想法，产出大量创意，但大多数都不会上线。

One, the prototyper comes up with brand new ideas, turns out many ideas, most of which don't ship.

第二种是开发者，能快速把原型变成可用的产品和基础设施。

Two, the builder quickly turns a prototype idea into production grade product and infrastructure.

第三种是优化师，负责打磨界面、简化代码和系统、移除冗余功能、提升性能。

Three, the sweeper Cleans up the UI, simplifies the code and system, unships, optimizes performance.

第四种是增长专家。

Four, the grower.

他们接手已经成型的产品，持续迭代，提升产品与市场的契合度。

Takes a product that has been built and iterates on it to improve product market fit.

第五种是维护者。

Five, the maintainer.

负责管理成熟系统，确保它在规模扩大时依然安全、稳定、快速且高效。

Owns a mature system to make it secure, reliable, fast, and efficient as it scales.

很多人同时承担两个角色，有时候甚至三个角色。

Many people span across two roles and sometimes three roles.

我还注意到，这些角色和具体职位并没有直接关系。

I also noticed that these roles are not really tied to job function.

比如在Anthropic，有些设计师属于第一类，有些是第二类，还有些是第三类。

EG, across Anthropic, some designers match category one, some two, some three.

工程师和产品经理也是一样。

Same for engineers, PMDS.

一个健康的团队需要根据产品阶段搭配不同角色的组合。

A healthy team needs a mix of these depending on the product.

一个刚起步、还没找到产品市场契合点的产品，需要擅长第一、二、三类角色的人——也就是原型设计者、构建者和整理者。

A product that is new and pre PMF needs people that are strong at one, two, and three prototyper, builder, and sweeper.

一个正在成长、已经找到产品市场契合点的产品，需要第二、三、四类角色——构建者、整理者和增长者，再加上第五类维护者。

A product that is growing and has found product market fit needs two, three, and four builder, sweeper, grower, and sum five maintainer.

一个已经拥有稳固产品市场契合点的产品，需要第三、四、五类角色——整理者、增长者和维护者，再加上第二类构建者。

A product that has strong product market fit needs three plus four plus five sweeper, grower, maintainer, and sum two builder.

也许未来的角色会更像这样，而不是像今天这样局限于特定领域。

Maybe product roles of the future will look more like this and less like the domain specific roles of today.

这是一篇特别棒的帖子，细节足够深入，又留有足够的空间让人继续延伸思考。

Now this is one of those great posts that's detailed enough to dig into but also open enough and exploratory enough to build off from.

所以我打算更深入地分析这五个角色，看看能不能把它们应用到工程和产品之外的领域，再想想可能还缺了什么。

And so what I wanted to do is go a little bit deeper into each of these five roles, try to apply it to areas outside of engineering and product work, and then look at what I think might be missing.

鲍里斯提到的所有这些角色，一个共同点是都直接面向产品。

Now, so one common thread in all of the positions outlined by Boris is that they are product facing.

换句话说，它们基本上都是向内看的，紧密围绕着正在开发的产品。

In other words, they more or less face inward, connected to the product that is being built.

这些角色的顺序，也大致反映了产品的生命周期。

The order is also a rough life cycle of a product.

鲍里斯甚至明确指出，不同团队需要根据产品所处的生命周期阶段，组合不同的角色。

Boris even articulates how different teams need different combinations of these things based on where in the product's life cycle the product is.

那我们来逐一聊聊这五个面向产品的工作角色。

So let's talk about each of these five work facing roles.

原型设计师这个角色，很多人其实经常在做。

The prototyper is a role that many of you inhabit on a fairly regular basis.

这类人会不断产生新点子，并借助ClaudeCode、Codex这类工具快速做出第一个版本。

This is a person who is generating brand new ideas and using things like ClaudeCode and Codex to do the first version of them.

过去，人们总说点子不值钱，关键在于执行。

Now historically, the knock on the idea person was that ideas were free and it was all about execution.

但现在，‘执行’的含义正在发生变化——在代码生成智能体的帮助下，把想法变成现实的第一步变得越来越简单。

Now what execution means, I think, is getting a little bit different as taking the first steps towards bringing that idea to life gets vanishingly simpler in the context of code generating agents.

有趣的是，原型设计师这个角色，虽然Boris是在产品团队的语境下谈的，但它的适用范围远不止产品开发。

And what's interesting about the archetype of the prototyper is that while obviously Boris is talking about it in the context of the actual product team, this is not at all constrained to product builders.

事实上，越来越多的人开始用智能体来快速原型和构建东西，这意味着产品思维正在渗透到组织的其他部门。

In fact, increasingly, the capability of using agents to prototype and build things means that product style thinking is infiltrating other parts of the organization.

那些以前从没接触过产品的人，也开始思考怎么为自己手头的工作打造专属工具或产品，让事情变得更轻松。

People who have never touched a product before are thinking about how they could build their own products or tools to make whatever it is that they're doing easier.

原型设计师的价值不仅在于他们能用代码解决问题，更在于他们正在重新定义自己所在职能的边界。

But the prototyper isn't just valuable because they figure out how to solve problems using code, but also because they're pushing the shape of what their function can actually do.

原型设计师把过去没完没了的讨论，变成了围绕真实事物展开的更聚焦、更务实的对话。

The prototyper cuts down what used to be an endless discussion phase into much more directed and applied conversations based on looking at something real.

换句话说，原型设计师不只是提出新点子，他们还省去了一个特别耗时的环节——因为现在大家可以直接看着具体的东西来讨论了。

In In other words, the prototyper isn't just coming up with new ideas, they're also eliminating an entire step in the conversation which can be extraordinarily time consuming because that conversation can now be had while looking at something real and tangible.

接下来是开发者。

Next up, we have the builder.

这类人能把原型进一步打磨成更接近实际可用的产品。

This is someone who can take that prototype and turn it into something that is more production grade.

所谓‘实际可用’，在面向客户的软件和内部工具里，含义是不一样的。

Now production grade is going to have different meanings in the context of a public facing product versus an internal facing tool.

显然，面向客户的软件在安全、bug修复等方面要求都高得多。

Obviously, a public facing product is going to have a much higher burden or threshold on everything from security to bugs to whatever.

而内部工具通常对这些问题宽容得多。

Internal tools are gonna have inherently a lot more forgiveness built in.

值得思考的是，原型设计师和开发者这两种角色，到底是不同的人，还是同一个人身上不同的思维方式。

Now one thing that's interesting to consider is how much the archetypes of prototype and builder are actually different people versus different mindsets within the same person.

我觉得这特别有意思，因为我觉得两边的说法我都能够说得很有说服力。

I think this is fascinating because I feel like I could argue both sides fairly compellingly.

一方面，我猜你们很多人在实际工作中都经历过这样的阶段——一会儿做原型，一会儿又转成构建者。

On the one hand, my guess is that many of you have gone through processes where you are both of these things at different points.

一开始先做原型，用它来引发必要的讨论，明确该做哪些决策，然后再切换到构建模式。

You prototype at first, use that to generate the conversation that you need to have about the decisions that need to be made, and then move into this builder mode.

但与此同时，我也觉得，那些天然倾向于做原型的人，和那些更适合做构建的人，性格上确实有些不同。

However, at the same time, I do think that there is a little bit of a dispositional difference between people who are inclined to find themselves as prototypers versus builders.

进入生产阶段要考虑的事情，和做原型阶段完全不一样。

The things that you need to care about when moving into production grade are very different than the considerations when you are in that prototyping stage.

我之所以这么确定，是因为只要一碰到那些事，我的大脑立马就自动关机，再也不想管了。

I can tell this because they're basically all the things that my brain instantly turns off around and stops caring about as soon as they happen.

但说到真实世界里用户会实际用到的产品，显然要求要高得多。

And yet when it comes to the real world of real artifacts that people are going to interact with, there is obviously a much higher threshold that needs to be met.

所以，虽然我觉得很多人在不同阶段都会扮演这两种角色，但从整个组织的角度来看，这两种可能确实是不同的性格类型。

And so, although I think that many people are going to inhabit prototyper and builder at various points in the journey, I do think as we zoom out to the organizational level, these might be different personality archetypes.

说到清理者，我觉得关键词是‘优化’。

Now when it comes to the sweeper, I think the keyword is optimize.

我不觉得波里斯的意思是，这种人只是帮构建者收拾烂摊子。

I don't think that what Boris is trying to say is that this is a person who just cleans up the mistakes of the builder.

事实上，如果你硬要把这些角色合并成一个，我觉得‘清理’本质上就是构建的一部分。

And in fact, I sort of think that if you were to push on trying to combine any of these roles into a single one, sweeping kind of feels like just an integral part of building.

而‘优化’这个词，可能才是关键所在。

The word optimize is where I think that perhaps changes.

把界面整理一下，或者简化代码，这是一回事。

It's one thing to clean up the UI or simplify the code.

但要是从几乎像基因层面去思考怎么优化、怎么提升，那就是另一回事了。

It's another thing to think on an almost DNA level about how to optimize things and improve them.

我们又开始把这些角色类型对应到性格类型上了——真正擅长优化的人，和擅长稳健构建或脑洞大开的人，其实是不一样的。

And again, we're starting to map these position archetypes into personality archetypes, the person who is really designed for optimization is also different than the person who's good at building in a hardened way or coming up with lots of ideas.

顺便说一句，我觉得在产品开发以外的领域，这种区别会更加明显，稍后我们会谈到。

By the way, I think this will be even more apparent in some areas outside of product development, which we'll get into in a little bit.

接下来这个角色——增长者，有意思的地方在于，它标志着此前那些主要面向内部、专注工作的角色和原型，开始转向外部世界。

Now, what's interesting about the next role, the grower, is that this is where what has so far been a largely work facing, internal facing set of positions, roles, and archetypes starts to turn outward to the rest of the world.

增长者负责把已经做出来的东西继续打磨，推向更完美的版本，比如实现产品与市场的契合，甚至主导市场。

The growers are the people who take the thing that is already built and instead is iterating on it towards an even better version, which could mean product market fit or product market domination.

这个角色本质上不可能完全停留在内部运作的模式里。

Now this is a role that almost definitionally cannot exist entirely in that internal facing way.

增长者的工作是让产品直接与目标用户互动，从中获得的反馈和洞察，才是真正驱动他们改进的核心。

The grower is doing things where the product as it exists is interacting with its intended audience, and the learnings from that are what goes back into the grower's work.

我待会儿要讲的一个关键观点，先给大家打个预防针。

Preview of what I'm going to argue in a minute.

我觉得博里斯的分析里最缺的，就是这些面向外部的角色，而这恰恰是一个明显的线索。

I think that the biggest thing missing from Boris' analysis is those externally facing roles, and this is kind of a hint towards that.

我总看到一些公司，在各种云服务、模型和框架之间摇摆不定，或者付钱给系统集成商做永远做不完的试点项目。

One thing I keep seeing in companies hedging across every cloud, every model, every framework or paying a GSI for a pilot that never ends.

真正有效的团队是在实际交付，他们选定了方向，就快速推进。

The team's actually shipping, they've picked a lane and they move fast.

这就是我喜欢今天这个赞助商 Robots and Pencils 的原因之一。

That's one of the reasons I like today's sponsor Robots and Pencils.

他们完全押注在 AWS 上。

They've gone all in on AWS.

他们是 AWS 高级合作伙伴和模式合作伙伴，能在 45 天内交付生产级的 AI 助理系统。

They're an advanced tier and AWS pattern partner and they ship production AI coworkers in forty five days.

正因如此，他们在 AI 助理领域的实践让我觉得特别有看头。

That's led to them doing some of the more interesting work I've seen on AI coworkers.

我说的不是聊天机器人，而是真正嵌入企业架构、能干实事的智能代理系统。

And by that I'm not talking about chatbots, I'm talking about actual agentic systems that sit inside a business architecture and do real work.

如果你是企业高管，想把真实成果落地，或者你是 AWS 的销售，想把客户从感兴趣变成实际部署，这种专注就特别关键。

That kind of focus matters if you're an enterprise leader trying to get something real into production, or an AWS rep trying to move a customer from interested to deployed.

访问 robotsandpencils.com 预约一次 AI 专题介绍。

Request an AI briefing at robotsandpencils dot com.

只要和 Robots and Pencils 聊一次，你就会明白了。

One conversation with Robots and Pencils and you'll know.

周末就该写点随性又开心的代码。

Weekends are for vibe coding.

现在把兴趣项目做出来比以往任何时候都容易，赶紧打开你最爱的灵感编码工具吧。

It has never been easier to bring a passion project to life, so go ahead and fire up your favorite vibe coding tool.

但周一马上就要来了，等你反应过来，眼前已经是密密麻麻的微服务、70年代的老式COBOL系统，还有一条能撑到你退休后都还没走完的开发路线图。

But Monday is coming, and before you know it, you'll be staring down a maze of microservices, a legacy COBOL system from the 1970s, and an engineering roadmap that will exist well past your retirement party.

所以你需要Blitzy——首个专为企业级代码库打造的自主软件开发平台。

That's why you need Blitzy, the first autonomous software development platform designed for enterprise scale codebases.

每个冲刺周期的开头都能快速部署，让你的开发路线图提速五倍。

Deploy the beginning of every sprint and tackle your roadmap 500% faster.

Blitzy的智能代理会读取你的整个代码库，规划任务，然后自主完成超过八成的工作。

Blitzy's agents ingest your entire codebase, plan the work, and deliver over 80% autonomously.

每行代码都经过验证、端到端测试，品质一流，交付速度却快如计算。

Validated, end to end tested, premium quality code at the speed of compute.

几个月的开发工作，几天就能搞定。

Months of engineering compressed into days.

周末就用 vibe coding 做你热爱的项目吧。

Vibe code your passion projects on the weekend.

周一上班，就把 Blitzy 带上。

Bring Blitzy to work on Monday.

去看看为什么《财富》500 强企业都信赖 Blitzy 来处理关键代码，地址是 blitzy.com。

See why Fortune 500s trust Blitzy for the code that matters at blitzy.com.

就是 blitzy.com。

That's blitzy.com.

本集《AI 每日简报》由 Hyperagent 赞助播出，你可以在这里管理团队共同使用的智能代理群组。

This episode of the AI Daily Brief is brought to you by Hyperagent, where you run fleets of agents your team can manage together.

新用户可获得 1000 美元的推理算力。

New users get $1,000 in inference.

别再等着本地代理或聊天流程，靠你的笔记本电脑来触发任务了。

Forget local agents and chat workflows waiting on your laptop to be prompted.

Hyperagent 把智能代理部署在云端，7x24 小时运行，直接对接你们团队正在用的那些工具，真正干活。

Hyperagent deploys always on agents in the cloud, doing real work across the tools your team already uses.

市场团队的智能代理能把竞争对手的动态自动生成落地页。

Marketing's agent turns competitor moves into landing pages.

销售团队的智能代理会完善潜在客户信息、撰写邮件，并更新客户管理系统。

Sales's agent enriches leads, drafts emails, and updates the CRM.

运营团队的智能代理负责跟进文书工作和跟踪预算进度。

Ops agent chases the paperwork and tracks the budget.

每个智能代理都能访问共享信息，并严格遵守你设定的权限和审批规则。

Every agent has access to shared context and follows your rules about scope and approvals.

是时候引入那些像同事一样默契的智能代理了。

It's time you add agents that feel like teammates.

立即在 Hyperagent 上雇佣你的智能代理，由 Airtable 原班团队打造。

Hire yours at Hyperagent built by the team at Airtable.

前往 hyperagent.com/aidailybrief 领取你的 1000 美元推理额度。

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最后，维护者。

Lastly, the maintainer.

任何在大企业待过的人家都知道，维护一个已经存在的成熟系统，和从零开始搭建新系统，完全是两码事。

Anyone who's ever worked inside a big enterprise knows that there is a massive, categorical difference in maintaining a mature system that already exists versus building something new.

这不仅是工作内容不同，心态和所需技能也全然不一样。

It is an entirely different set of work, an entirely different set of dispositions, an entirely different set of skills.

而我们从博里斯的分析中看到的是，尽管环境在变、工作方式在变，但那种把维护大型系统和从头构建系统区分开来的思维模式，在这个新的智能代理时代依然根深蒂固。

And what we're seeing with Boris' analysis is that while the context might be changing and the mechanism of the job might be changing, that orientation towards maintaining a big system as something that is different than building the system in the first place continues and persists into this new agentic era paradigm.

不过，正如我之前暗示的，我觉得这个分析非常有意思，也很有价值。

Okay, but as I hinted, I think this is a really interesting and valuable analysis.

它很好地解释了现在很多小型、灵活的团队在面对产品开发中各种角色分工时的真实感受。

I think this is a great way to break down a lot of what a lot of particularly small, nimble teams are feeling as the slate of different roles, especially that go into the products that they're building.

但一旦你把目光转向产品部门以外，就会很快发现，博里斯的分析漏掉了一个完全不同的视角。

But once you start to look, especially outside of the product organization, it becomes really clear really fast that there is almost a totally different orientation that's missing in Boris' analysis.

然而，角色正在从具体、狭窄的职责，转向更宽泛的类型和可被智能代理支持的工作范畴——这种趋势，即使在第二类角色中也同样成立。

And yet, the idea that roles are changing such that they are increasingly less about a specific narrow job description and instead about archetypes and categories of agentically enabled work persists even into the second category.

如果第一类岗位是直接面对工作、与产出物打交道的，那么第二类岗位——也就是博里斯没深入探讨的——则更多是面向外部的。

If the first group of positions were the ones that face the work, the ones that interact with the artifact, the second group of positions, the ones that I think aren't explored with Boris' analysis, are those that face a little bit more externally.

他们面对的是人和工作背后的信号。

They face the people and the signal around the work.

我们来举几个具体的例子吧。

So let's talk about a few different examples.

一个是编辑角色。

One is the editor.

当原型设计师在一周内做出十几个不同想法时，会发生什么？

So what happens when the prototyper makes a dozen different ideas over the course of a week?

谁来决定该推进哪一个？

Whose role is it to decide which they should pursue?

即使在现在做原型越来越便宜的情况下，选出真正值得投入的项目反而变得更加关键。

Even or especially in a world where it's increasingly cheap to get on base, figuring out which projects you actually wanna let run becomes even more important.

市场的注意力始终是有限的，你不可能什么都试。

The attention of the market is still scarce, and you can't try everything.

这时候，编辑的作用就体现出来了。

And that's where the editor comes in.

编辑者这个角色，就是那个负责判断哪些原型值得真正投入开发的人，或者说是那种思维方式。

The editor archetype is the person or people or simply mindset that helps decide which of the many prototypes deserve to be built.

重要的是，把编辑者看作一个角色，并不意味着规定了他们做这些决策时必须采用什么方法。

Now importantly, recognizing the editor as a role does not prescribe what approach they might take to making those decisions about which of the many prototypes deserves to be fully built.

有些编辑靠数据说话，有些则更依赖直觉。

Some editors are going to be empirical, some are going to be gut based.

共同点在于，一旦原型出来了，谁能精准聚焦资源、锁定方向，这个角色就会变得越来越关键。

What's common is that the selector and focuser of the energy around a particular option, once those prototypes exist, is going to be an increasingly important role.

编辑者做决策时，部分依据可能来自侦察者的工作。

Now, part of what might inform the editors' work is the work of the scout.

那些原型创意最初是从哪儿来的呢？

Where do those prototype ideas come from in the first place?

在大多数情况下，它们都源于与现实世界的互动。

In many, if not most cases, they're going to come through interaction with the real world.

很多时候，正是原型设计者自己在外部观察时，突然产生了那些最终被实现的创意。

Now sometimes, if not many times, it'll be the prototyper themselves who's out observing things who has the spark of the ideas that get built into that prototype.

但随着组织规模越来越大，当我们系统性地思考组织如何自我重塑时，就会发现一种角色越来越重要——那就是专门走出去，收集和探索外界传递的信息，再把这些洞察带回组织，供原型设计者和其他人以此为基础开展工作的角色。

But especially as we move into larger and larger organizations, and we think systematically about how organizations might redesign themselves, the idea of a role whose job is specifically to be out in the world, aggregating and exploring the signal coming in, and then bringing it back into the organization for the prototypers and others to start building upon, you can see as something that could be increasingly important.

在很多组织里，侦察工作也可能主要由智能体来承担。

Now, scouting might also be something that in many organizations is largely agentic.

智能体特别擅长吸收、整合和提炼海量信息，而这正是侦察者的核心职责。

One of the things that agents are really good at is absorbing, collating, and distilling huge amounts of information, which is what the job of a scout is.

这并不直接涉及侦察过程中所需的判断力，但值得注意的是，我认为在许多组织中，这个角色将由智能体而非人类来担任。

Now, that doesn't necessarily speak to the taste that might be involved in scouting, but it's interesting to note that this is a role that I think in many organizations will be filled by agents, not just people.

下一个原型角色，很多组织其实已经存在了，那就是布道者。

The next archetype, which is already admittedly a role that many organizations have, is evangelist.

这些人不只是推销产品，而是能让整个市场以和创造者同样的视角来看待世界。

These are the folks who don't just market the thing, but actually get the market to see the world in the same way that the builders see the world.

他们的工作成果有时体现为内容。

This person's output might sometimes be around content.

有时则体现在对话中。

It might sometimes be around conversation.

有时候也可能是围绕社群展开的。

It might sometimes be around community.

但这个角色开始负责连接内部和外部发生的事情。

But this is the position that starts to own the intersection of what happens internally and what happens externally.

接下来是一个角色，我觉得它既可以是面向内部的，也可以是面向外部的，那就是协调者。

Next up, a role that I think honestly could exist both as a work internal facing role but also as an external facing role is the orchestrator.

这个角色的有趣之处在于，协调者会在多个层面发挥作用。

And what's interesting about this archetype is that orchestrators are going to function on multiple levels.

我认为，在某种程度上，协调能力将成为每个人都会具备的技能，尤其是当人们越来越多地同时管理智能代理，并承担起原本的职责时。

I think to some extent, orchestration is a skill that everyone will have, even in the context of their own work, as they increasingly become managers of agents in addition to whatever they were before.

但在大型组织中，如何让这些全新的、分散的组成部分协同运作，尤其是在工作产出急剧增加的情况下，协调层将变得至关重要。

And yet, especially in larger organizations, the orchestration layer of figuring out how all these new disparate pieces work together, especially as the work output increases dramatically, is going to be extremely important.

那些身处不同角色原型之间，甚至跨越组织不同部门、不同角色组合交汇点的协调者，将会变得越来越重要。

Orchestrators that live at the intersection not just of these different role archetypes, but also of these different bundles of role archetypes across different parts of the organization are going to be increasingly important.

我们完全可以做一期专门讲讲在微观和宏观层面做协调意味着什么，但即便如此，也才刚刚触及我所认为的这个方向的皮毛。

We could do an entire episode about what it means to be an orchestrator on a micro or a macro level and barely begin to scratch the surface of where I think this is heading.

接下来一个密切相关的话题，说实话，我不确定这是否应该单独成一种角色，还是直接归入协调者的范畴，那就是指挥者。

Now closely related, and honestly, I don't know if it should exactly be its own thing or something that's just bundled with Orchestrator is the conductor.

这个角色更侧重于对智能代理的管理，而不是整个组织的管理。

This is a bit more specific to agent management instead of organizational management.

但关键是，如果我们把这些智能代理团队看作是需要被管理的数字员工，确保他们的输出彼此协调一致，那么指挥者就是专门针对这类工作的协调者版本。

But the point is that if we view these teams of agents as actual synthetic or digital employees that need to be managed in some way and need to be made sure that their outputs can be coherent with one another, the conductor is the version of an orchestrator that is focused specifically on that type of work.

最后还有一个角色，我认为尤其重要，尤其是在规模更大的组织，或者工作涉及敏感领域的场景下，那就是风险管理者。

Now one final role that I think in particular is going to be extremely important, especially the larger the organization you get into or the more sensitive the area that its work relates to, is the risk steward.

这不仅仅是制定治理规范的管理者那么简单。

This is more than just a governance guideline sort of manager.

我认为智能代理带来的一个影响是，无论个人还是大型组织，运作和迭代的速度都会大幅提升。

I think that one of the implications of agents is that the speed at which all of us, even big organizations, can operate and iterate, goes way up.

这本身就必然催生新的风险类别，或者因为组织应对时间被压缩，而加剧原有的风险。

That inherently, almost definitionally, is going to create new categories and new types of risk, and or it's going to amplify existing risks by having less time for organizations to adapt.

因此，风险管理者的核心职责，就是让治理体系顺畅运转，避免因失控的风险而导致整个系统停摆或脱轨。

The risk steward then becomes the archetypal position whose whole focus is on greasing the governance gears of the system so that it doesn't get stopped and thrown off the tracks by a risk that got out of control.

有趣的是，我觉得尤其是做开发的人，常常把关注风险的人看作是阻碍、瓶颈，甚至是工作停摆的刹车。

Now interestingly, I think especially builders are often used to thinking about people who are focused on risk as the gatekeepers, the bottlenecks, the stoppers of work.

但在智能体时代，工作本身有着惊人的惯性，我反而觉得情况正好相反——新的风险管理员，其职责是提前几步预判可能让整个流程脱轨的问题，并在项目真正遇到这些问题之前就把它解决掉。

But work now in the agentic era has such an incredible momentum that I actually think it's exactly the opposite, that risk stewards in this new paradigm are the people who are trying to anticipate a couple steps down the line what things could derail the whole process and try to fix them before the project even gets there.

我认为，这种新型的智能体时代风险管理员，将是一个极具活力、面向未来的角色。组织能否持续快速推进，还是只短暂快一阵子就陷入卡顿、中断，关键就看这个角色能不能到位。

I actually think that this new agentic era risk steward is going to be an incredibly dynamic, forward oriented role, and the difference between organizations that continue to move fast versus move fast for a little bit and then have to deal with fits and starts and stops is going to be in this role.

好了，现在我们有了这一整套新岗位，就像我之前说的，这些岗位有时会由同一个人兼任，而且在很多方面，它们更像是一种工作模式的原型，而不只是具体职位。

Okay, So now we've got this whole new set of positions, which, as I mentioned, are sometimes going to be bundled together in a single person, and which in many ways represent archetypes of work as much as they do specific roles.

尤其是面向一线工作的角色，比如原型设计师、开发者、清理员、增长师、维护者，这些角色和软件工程或产品设计的关联，可能比它们在组织其他部门中的定位更容易理解。

Especially when it comes to the work facing roles, the prototyper, the builder, the sweeper, the grower, the maintainer, it might be a little bit easier to visualize how they relate to software engineering or product design than how they might fit in other parts of the organization.

那我们就换个角度，看看这些角色在销售部门会是什么样子。

So let's look at these roles, but in a different area of the org, starting with sales.

在销售团队里，原型设计师会是什么样？

What would a prototyper look in the sales organization?

这可能是一个负责测试新话术、客户分群和促销方案的人。

Well, this might be a person who tests new pitches, segments, and offers.

这个点子型人才，现在终于能迈出第一步了，以前可没这个机会。

The idea person, but enabled to take the first steps in a way that they never were before.

构建者是那些会把新话术、新客户群或各种新尝试，变成可复制、可推广的销售流程的人。

The builder are the archetypes who are going to take some of those new pitches or segments or offers or whatever it is and turn it into a repeatable playbook that can scale across the entire sales organizations.

清理者负责梳理整个流程，剔除过时的脚本和不匹配的客户群体。

The sweepers are the folks who are going to go through and cut dead scripts or bag fit segments from the process.

说白了，他们就是负责修剪枝叶，让团队保持高速运转，不被低价值的工作拖慢节奏。

Basically, they're the ones who are going to go prune the whole thing so that the velocity remains high without less valuable work getting amplified.

在多种选择中，他们会优化构建者设计的方案，让面向客户的销售流程效果最大化。

Within the range of options, they are going to optimize what the builder built to make the public facing sales process as valuable as possible.

在销售团队里，增长者负责让这些新方案和销售策略真正落地，接受市场的检验。

Now, grower in the sales organization is where all these offers and new approaches and sales motions actually start to interact with the real world.

他们不断测试不同策略的效果，找出哪些真正管用，并引导团队向成功方向靠拢。

They're the ones who are iterating to see how this strategy versus that strategy is performing and orienting the organization to what's working.

他们关注成交速度和规模扩张，核心就是把已经验证有效的做法，大规模放大。

They're thinking about deal velocity expansion and generally taking what's working and expanding it significantly.

随着整个销售流程逐渐成熟，维护者的作用就是将其打造成一个完整的销售体系，而不仅仅是一堆新的销售策略。

Now as this whole sales process matures, the maintainer is the one who turns this into and then maintains a complete sales system, not just a bunch of new sales strategies.

他们关注的是销售线索的管理与客户覆盖，一季接一季地持续跟进。

They are thinking about pipeline discipline and account coverage quarter after quarter.

这是鲍里斯提出的那套角色，但我们之前提到的那些更面向外部的角色呢？

So that's Boris' set of roles, but what about the more externally facing that we talked about?

显然，编辑者这个角色在这里也扮演着重要角色。

Obviously, the editor archetype has a role here.

你看，销售原型设计者会不断冒出大量点子，但其中很多可能并不值得投入。

As you can see, the sales prototyper coming up with just a ton of ideas that might not actually be worth the squeeze.

侦察者这个角色显然非常关键，因为销售本质上就是内部行动与外部环境之间的互动。

The scout archetype is obviously valuable as sales is so inherently about how what you're doing internally interacts with the world externally.

找到能为原型设计者提供方向的关键信号，变得越发重要。

Finding the signal that can inform the prototyper becomes even more important.

我认为在销售这个领域，风险管理者这个角色也同样至关重要。

And I think in the context of sales, something like the risk steward actually is really important as well.

销售流程有时会倾向于不计代价地促成交易。

Sales motions can sometimes have a tendency to try to get the sale at any cost.

但有些代价，不管是实际成本、公关损失，还是别的什么，实在太高了，承受不起。

And yet some costs, be they actual costs or PR costs or something else, are actually too high to bear.

这时候，风险管控者甚至能在问题出现之前，就提前考虑到这些因素。

And in this case, a risk steward can be thinking about those things even in advance of where those issues might come up.

我觉得市场营销的情况也差不多。

I think marketing looks fairly similar.

侦察者会关注受众、文化动态，观察竞争对手的动向，把外界的信号带回团队。

You've got the scout who's reading the audience, the culture, seeing what competitors are doing, and bringing those ideas as signals into the organization.

原型设计者则把这些信号转化为新的叙事方式、营销活动和渠道尝试。

The prototyper takes those signals and tries new narratives, campaigns, and channels.

编辑者凭借品味和判断力，筛选出最契合品牌现状或未来方向的故事、角度和表达方式。

The editor uses taste and discernment to figure out which stories, which angles, which narratives best fit the brand as it is or where it wants to go.

有了侦察者提供的信息、原型设计者的尝试，再经过编辑者的打磨，构建者就能把灵感变成真正高效的营销机器。

With the combination of these scout informed prototypes refined by the editor, the builder can take the spark of ideas and turn them into real campaign machines.

这就需要一个清理者，负责淘汰弱效的信息和过度扩张的渠道，简化转化路径，帮着砍掉不属于特定活动的渠道，整体上把精力集中在最有潜力的领域。

That creates the need for the sweeper who's going to kill weak messaging and channel bloat, simplify the funnel, help prune and decide which channels aren't part of a particular campaign, and generally focus the efforts on the areas of highest potential leverage.

增长者就是那个对数据极度痴迷的增长营销人员，他不靠编辑那样的品味，也不靠侦察者那样的宏观信号，而是实实在在地优化转化率、优化增长、优化成本。

The grower is the growth marketer who's obsessed with the data that's coming in, who isn't just using taste like the editor or broad signals like the scout, but is instead actually optimizing conversion, optimizing for growth, optimizing for costs.

顺便说一句，增长者所做的工作，其实和下一波侦察工作是紧密衔接的。

And by the way, the work that the grower is doing is deeply aligned with the next set of scout work that's going to happen as well.

当前客户与潜在客户在活动中互动所产生的反馈，正是侦察者用来启发下一波创意的素材，再由原型设计师去尝试落地。

The exhaust that spins off the interaction between current and potential customers in the campaign is what the scout uses to inform the next set of ideas that the prototyper will prototype.

当然，为了确保这一切不只是单次活动，而能形成一套真正的营销体系，还需要维护者。

And, of course, to ensure that all of this adds up to more than just a single campaign but an actual marketing system, you have the maintainers.

在营销领域里，维护者可能涵盖从品牌维护者——确保所有内容都保持一致，到系统维护者——比如CRM和客户生命周期系统等各种角色。

Now within the context of marketing, the maintainers might be everything from brand maintainers and really making sure that everything is aligned there to systems maintainers, the CRM, the lifecycle systems.

每个营销人都经历过那种痛苦：因为之前缺乏维系整个体系的黏合剂，结果每次都要从零开始。

Every marketer knows the pain of having to start from scratch because the glue that kept the whole system together just wasn't there before.

有一点很重要：这些角色原型并不一定能完美对应到每一个职能上。

Now one important note is that these sets of archetypes and positions aren't going to map cleanly to every function.

这些角色显然是从产品和软件开发团队中衍生出来的，我觉得它们和销售、市场团队的定位非常契合。

They obviously were generated from the product and software development organization, and I think that they have some pretty clear fits with these sales and marketing organizations.

那像财务、运营和人力资源这样的后台部门呢？

But what about something like the back office, where you've got finance, ops, and HR?

在这些领域，你可能会看到不同的侧重，比如原型设计者和构建者较少，而维护者更多。

You might see in those areas a different type of concentration where, for example, you have fewer prototypers and builders and more maintainers.

事实上，从某种角度说，后台部门本来就是整个组织核心职能的守护者，因此它们内部也自然会以这类工作为重点。

In fact, in some ways, back office, you could argue, is the maintainer of the core functions of the whole organization already, and so it makes sense that that's going to be a key part of what they do internally as well.

不过话说回来，有些角色确实很适用。

Now that said, some of these roles really do fit.

清理者负责淘汰重复的工具、僵尸预算和糟糕的指标。

The sweeper, which removes redundant tools, zombie budgets, and bad metrics.

风险管控者在这些后台职能中尤为重要。

Obviously, the risk steward is extraordinarily important in these sort of back office functions.

协调者能让跨团队的系统和数据顺畅对接，价值巨大。

Orchestrators, who actually make systems and data that can fit across teams, are incredibly valuable.

那些天生面向外部的拓展者或侦察者，在这种纯粹内部的岗位上就不太适用了。

The grower or the scout that are inherently external facing don't make as much sense in these inherently internal facing roles.

但有趣的是，最后我想说，这种新型智能工作方式的一个影响可能是，即使某些角色看起来和后台职能不太匹配，一旦他们掌握了智能工具和工作方法，也可能逐渐适配得起来。

And yet interestingly, as a final thought, in some cases, one of the impacts of this new agentic way of working will be that even archetypes that don't seem exactly like they fit in an area like back office might start to fit more as they get their hands on agentic tools and agentic ways of working.

我们拿原型设计师来说。

Let's take the prototyper.

原型设计师在后台职能这类工作中，表面上看并不明显，或者说不直接有对应的角色。

The prototyper doesn't exactly, or at least not cleanly, have as obvious a role in something like these back office functions.

但我不是说完全没有作用。

Now, wouldn't say that there's no role.

显然，无论是在财务、人力，还是其他任何岗位，人们都会不断思考如何把工作做得更好，有哪些新工具可以用等等。

Obviously, in any role, whether it's finance or HR or something else, people are constantly thinking about new and better ways to do their job, new tools they have access to, etcetera.

在这种背景下，原型设计师依然是一个很有价值的角色。

And the prototyper can still be a valuable archetype in that context.

但未来，原型设计师作为产品构建者的这种定位，可能在财务或人力这类部门里，比你想象的更有意义。

But the idea of the prototyper as product builder might, in the future, have even more resonance in something like finance or HR than you might think.

这时候，产品思维和产品组织开始渗透到公司的其他部门。

And this is where the product organization and product thinking starts to infiltrate the rest of the organization.

到现在，已经有数万人参与了AIDB Agent OS、新年计划、ClawCamp、企业Claw、高管代理领导力和高管对齐项目，但其中极少一部分来自产品或软件部门。

We have now had tens of thousands of people go through AIDB Agent OS and the New Year's program and ClawCamp and Enterprise Claw and executive agent leadership and executive catch up, and the vanishing minority of them are in the product or software organization.

但他们把产品和软件领域的理念和方法带到了自己的岗位上。

But they are taking product and software ideas and approaches and bringing them to their areas.

想象一下，一个后台人员写了一段小代码，专门处理某种特殊的报销单或报销异常情况。

Picture a back office person writing a small piece of custom software to handle a very specific kind of expense report or expense reporting exception.

以前他们得提交工单，等上一个季度，现在他们可以直接自己动手搞定。

It used to be that they would have had to file a ticket and wait a quarter, but now they can just build it themselves.

这其实就是一种原型设计，只要对他们的工作有用，就可能发展成持续开发、优化和维护。

That is a form of prototyping, and to the extent that it works for their roles, could turn into building, growing, maintaining, etc.

当制作变得足够简单便宜，每个部门都会冒出一个会动手的人。

When making gets cheap enough, every function starts to grow a maker.

我觉得，如果你深陷某个具体职能领域，短期内最能证明自己的方式，就是成为这个部门里那个能动手解决问题的人。

And I think that if you are a person who is deep inside a specific function, one very good way to, at least in the short term future prove yourself, is to become the maker for that function in your organization.

把原型设计这个思路，融入到你平时的工作里。

To take the idea of prototyping and bring it into what you do.

不是因为你的公司会突然放弃现有的SaaS工具，改用一堆定制小软件，而是通过亲手做东西，你能推动整个组织换种方式思考，意识到自己其实有更多没发现的机会。

Not because your organization is all of a sudden going to use small pieces of custom software instead of SaaS tools for whatever it is that you do, but because by building things, you're going to be able to push your organization to think differently and realize that it has more opportunities than it even knew.

这样一来，你就把自己放在了一个至关重要的位置上——不只是帮你所在的团队把事办好，更是在推动那些将重塑未来工作本质的组织变革。

And in so doing, put yourself in an incredibly important role, not just when it comes to helping your organization do its job, but in terms of the essential organizational change that'll shape what the job is in the future.

就像我开头提到的，我认为这一切背后最核心的变化，是现在我们能随时调用智能代理，可以做以前根本不可能做到的很多事情。

As I mentioned at the top of the show, the core change I think underlying all of this is the shift to having access to agents and being able to simply do more different things than was ever possible before.

当我们还在摸索这些变化会带来什么影响时，我并不觉得每个岗位会一夜之间彻底改变。

As we experiment with what those shifts are going to mean, I do not think that all of a sudden, overnight, every single role changes.

但我相信，开始用这些不同角色类型来理解人——这些类型往往和性格、气质相关——会帮助我们在组织变革和探索过程中找到方向。

But I do think that starting to think in terms of these different archetypes, which translate probably to people's personalities and temperaments, is going to be valuable as part of the process of organizational change and exploration.

好了，接下来就交给你了。

And so with that, I turn it over to you.

我特别想知道，你现在的工作中，有没有遇到类似的情况，或者完全相反的经历？

I am super interested to hear if and how this resonates with or is contrasting with your experience in organizations as they're operating right now.

想聊这个话题，有个特别好的地方是 AI DB Operators 社区。

One great place to come talk about this is the AI DB operators community.

我有一阵子没提了，但现在已经有两千五百多位成员在热烈讨论这类组织发展的话题，还有其他相关内容。

I haven't been sharing it for a while, but it's up to about 2,500 different members talking a lot about this sort of organizational development work and other things.

你可以在 aidboperators.circle.so 找到他们，我也会在节目笔记里附上链接。

You can find it at aidboperators.circle.so, and I'll include a link in the show notes as well.

好了，不耽误你过七月四日的假期了。

And let you get back to your July 4 weekend.

特别感谢 Boris Churney，不仅因为他打造了 Claude Koch 这么棒的产品，更因为他一直在分享自己对工作组织方式的新思考。

Big ups to Boris Churney, not only for building a great product in Claude Koch, but in constantly sharing how they're thinking about new ways of organizing work.

也一如既往地感谢各位收听或观看。

And thanks as always to you guys for listening or watching.

祝你假期愉快，我们下期再见，再见。

Again, have a great weekend, and until next time, peace.