《战地6》创意总监托马斯·安德松

所以，是的，我总是告诉每个人，从QA做起，或者自己做一个项目。

So, yeah, I always tell tell everyone start a QA and or and or build something.

但你刚才的过渡简直太棒了，我都不用再说了，因为我们已经聊到这个话题了。

But you you actually did an awesome segue that I don't have to do now because we started talking about this.

是的。

Yeah.

但在准备这次对你进行的采访之前，我跟其他几位创意总监朋友聊了聊，问他们除了《战地》之外，我还该跟托马斯聊些什么。

But in preparation for this this interview with you, I talked to a bunch of my other creative director friends, and I was like, you know, what should I talk to Thomas about other than Battlefield?

因为你知道，我也希望这些节目能聚焦于技艺和职业发展。

Because, you know, I do like to focus these episodes on on the craft and the career as well.

而最重要的一点，这也是我自己的第一想法，就是你

And the number one thing, and this was my number one thing too that came up was, you

知道，

know,

《战地》规模太大了。

Battlefield is massive.

你能看出有四五个工作室在参与这款游戏的开发。

You've got four or five studios that I can tell working on on this game.

作为如此庞大项目的创意总监，在我们这个行业里这样的人寥寥无几。

Being the creative director of something that big like, there's only a few of those in our industry.

对吧？

Right?

这显然带来了巨大的压力。

Obviously, there's a lot of pressure in that.

但你是怎么把这一切整合起来的呢？就像你提到的，面对不同的文化、时区、工作方法，甚至不同工作室专注不同的任务？

But, like, how do you wrangle all that together, like you said, with different cultures and different time zones and different methodologies and and even different studios focusing on different things?

我知道这大概是怎么运作的，但我相信我们的听众会非常想听听，像你这样身处行业前沿、领导如此庞大且广受喜爱的项目——尤其是《战地6》如此出色——的人是怎么做到的。

It is a you know, I think I understand how that works, but I really think our listeners would benefit to hear how someone who's literally at the tip of the spear in the industry leading something that's so massive and so beloved and with Battlefield six, so good.

嗯。

Mhmm.

哦，是的。

Oh, that yeah.

这确实是个棘手的问题，但并不是一个人。

It's a it's a tricky one, but it it's not a person.

所以，我再次强调，你之前已经说过这一点。

So I don't again, you've said it before.

任何人都不应该感到惊讶，因为根本不存在这样一个人，说‘是的，我负责所有对话’。

It should be no surprise to anyone that there's there's no one who is like, yeah, I'm carrying all the conversations.

我不是那个亲自去微观管理这些事务、优先处理所有清单或提出所有点子的人，这一点我想大家都应该很清楚，但如果还有人不清楚，我就想明确说明：任何组织在规模扩大时，都会不可避免地增加越来越多的管理层级。

I'm the one going in and micromanaging these things or prioritizing all the lists or doing coming up with all the ideas, that goes up, just so that, it should I think that it's evident to everyone, but but if it isn't, I just wanted to state that, from I think any organization that you have, when it grows in size, you start adding more and more layers of management, which is inevitable.

你只需要让人们能够与组织内的人顺畅沟通，能够把任务拆分成更小的模块，除非每个人都完全认同愿景、清楚我们前进的方向，那样的话没人会犯错，也就无需那么多管理了。

You just need people to be able to talk to people that are organized in in you need to be able to bite things off in smaller chunks, essentially, unless you have everyone is completely on board with the vision, understand where we're heading, those kind things, no one's gonna make a mistake, then you don't need so much in terms of management.

但现实中，关键是确保人们心情愉快、能按时交付成果、清楚自己该做什么、拥有完成工作的工具，诸如此类的事情。

But in reality, just making sure that people are happy, that people are delivering the things, people understand that they understand what they're supposed to make, have the tools to do so, all that sort of stuff.

所以这是一个庞大的组织，但并不是简单地由关在屋子里做设计的人组成，比如关在屋子里的关卡设计师或关卡美术师，不，我们有被称为开发总监的人，有制作人，有确保项目按时交付、符合规格和预期的人。

So it's a massive organisation, it's just not people sitting and making, like here's a level designer or a level artist, no, there's we have development directors as they're called, we have producers, people who are making sure that things are meeting deadlines, that are meeting specs or expectations for things.

我们有严格的评审流程，而且在这段时间里，频繁的出差也是家常便饭。

Have rigorous kind of review processes, we have, there's been a lot of travel, frankly, also during this time.

在分布式游戏开发中，人们分散各地，可能并非所有人都在家工作，这在《战地6》中确实如此——有些人一直居家办公，有些人偶尔来办公室，但共同点是，所有人都遍布全球各地。

And with the distributed game development of people sitting, and maybe not everyone is working from home, that was certainly the case in Battlefield six, some people are just constantly working from home, some people are sometimes in the office, but the the kind of common thing is that everyone is all over sort of the world.

所以时差有九个小时。

So it's nine hour time difference.

这些地方之间只差一个小时时差。

There's one hour time difference between these.

这两个人之间隔着一个大陆，相差三个小时。

There's a continent and three hours between these guys.

这很棘手，如果没有清晰的战略目标、明确的创作愿景、持续的沟通以及明确的阶段评审流程，是无法做到的——比如，我们坐下来讨论概念层面的需求，持续推进开发，进入下一阶段时再回顾：现在我们是否更清楚了？我们能做什么、不能做什么？这需要投入多少资源？

So, like that is tricky and you don't do that without having clear strategic goals, a clear vision for what we want to create, conversations and and a gate process that's like, let's sit together and talk about what it what it needs to be from a concept level, continue to develop, follow-up on development, coming into the next gate, looking at, okay, now we should know a little bit more, what what is it that we can or can't do, how much is this gonna what what's this gonna take?

我们如何优化这些流程，以玩家的利益为重，同时确保我们能如期交付？这其中涉及大量的严谨流程和无数人的时间投入，使得每个人能贡献的微小输入，都能在整个组织中被有效传递。

How do we optimize these things for the sake of the players and for the sake of us being able to ship this when we say that we're going to ship it and all that There's sort of so much rigor and so much so much of so much so many people's time that makes the the the little input a person can have into this that I bring, that that message is kinda carried through the entire organization.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

That's Yeah.

有这么多人参与其中。

There's so many people to that.

我不知道这是否回答了你的问题，但确实非常复杂。

I don't know if that answered your question, but it's it is a complex Totally.

我的意思是，你所提到的许多方法论实际上是EA几十年来开创的。

I mean and a lot of that methodology that you're talking about is actually been pioneered by EA for decades.

对吧？

Right?

我确实记得DF。

I actually remember d f.

当我还在EA洛杉矶时，他们说我们要创建一个叫开发总监的职位。

Being at EA LA when they they were like, we're gonna create this thing called a development director.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对吧？

Right?

你知道，EA显然非常擅长应对这种大规模多工作室的开发流程。

Like, you know so so and EA is obviously very well set up to kinda handle handle that this kind of massive multi studio development process.

总之，是的。

Anyways Yeah.

我们来聊聊这个游戏吧。

I let's talk about let's talk about the game.

好的。

Okay.

我只想说，我一直以来要么是被Dice继承进EA的，要么就是一直在EA工作。

I I just wanted to say I've only I've only ever been on either from Dice grandfathered into EA or being in EA.

所以，通过我那些去其他公司的朋友，我多少了解一些其他工作室的情况，但我其实并不清楚某些方面到底有多相似或不同，但开发总监这类职位对我们来说绝对是必需的。

So it's with the friends that I have that have gone to other companies, I kind of have an idea of what other studios are like, but I actually don't know how much, how similar or dissimilar certain things are, but development directors is and those kind certainly a necessity for us.

是的。

Yeah.

我要说的是，EA规模太大了，有太多人经历过EA的体系，这已经彻底渗透到了AAA游戏开发的整个领域。

I mean, I will say that EA is so big and so many people have gone through the EA system that that has completely permeated the AAA development, you know, landscape.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你知道，至少大部分那样的框架和功能已经推广到了整个行业，许多工作室都是围绕着类似的理念建立的。

You know, at at least a lot of that, you know, framework and functionality went out into the industry, and a lot of studios are are built kind of around the same ideas.

当然，现在有各种各样的开发方法，但成千上万的人从EA的这种结构中受益，并将它带到了其他地方。

And, of course, there's there's tons of different methodologies now, but, you know, thousands of people have have benefited from that structure at EA and taken that to, you know, other places.

嗯。

So Mhmm.

谈谈祖传制度吧。

Talk about grandfathering.

是的。

Yeah.

总之，《战地6》很棒。

Anyways, so Battlefield six is great.

正如我所说，我玩得非常开心。

Like I said, I I'm having a really great time with it.

当我重新回到这个系列玩第六代时，一开始感觉非常吓人，因为我真的觉得自己根本没法和这里其他玩家竞争。

It feels very initially, coming back to the to the franchise for six to do this, I was actually terrified because I I was like, man, I'm not I'm not I can't even, like, compete with anybody playing here.

我感觉自己只会被碾压，而这种情况确实正在发生。

Like, I'm just gonna get chewed up, and that's definitely happening.

不过，我想指出几件事，它们对我产生了巨大影响，让我觉得：天啊，我太爱这个游戏了。

However, there's a couple things I wanted to point out that had a real major effect in in the game on me being like, man, I love this game.

我要说，我喜欢军事模拟射击类游戏，但老实讲，我从其他我以前玩过的游戏中再也得不到这种体验了。

And I I'll tell you, I love, you know, I love the military simulator shooter genre, and I'll just say I'm not getting that from the other games I used to play.

所以这对我来说真是一股清新的空气，或者说是回归本源，而且整个游戏贯穿了全新的创意。

So this is a real breath of fresh air for me or a return to form, I'll say, maybe, with with definitely with new ideas all the way through it.

但说到我技术差、对团队贡献少、死亡/击杀比低，你们在玩家成长路径中加入的许多机制，即使我杀的人不多，也能帮助团队获胜。

But, you know, talking about me being terrible and not really contributing to my team on my kill death ratio, but there's so many things that you guys have added into, like, the player path that even if I'm not killing enough people, I'm contributing to my team winning.

我能真切地感受到这一点，这种直观而令人耳目一新的体验让我想一直玩下去。

And I can feel and see that in a way that is so, like, tactile and refreshing that it makes me wanna keep playing.

我认为，这是一件非常重要的事。

And that's that's a really, I think, important thing.

另一件让我印象深刻的是战术破坏这个概念。

The other thing that kinda really struck me was this the idea of tactical destruction.

我看到了许多例子，展示了这种破坏在游戏中的每一刻有多么酷、有趣且具有颠覆性。

I see examples of how insanely cool and fun and ridiculously game changing that is on a moment to moment basis within the game.

我的意思是，很多游戏都尝试过这种玩法式的破坏，但我真的感受到，这里实现的方式是我以前从未见过的。

I mean, so many games have tried to do, you know, gameplay style destruction, but I'm really feeling really feeling that it's achieved here in a way that I haven't seen before.

我的意思是，当你身处一栋建筑中，突然它在你周围轰然倒塌，你必须设法逃生并改变策略——这显然是你们想要达到的效果，太棒了。

I mean, like, being in a building and having it come crashing down around you and having to get out of there alive and and change your your strategy, I mean, that's obviously what you guys meant to do there, and it's awesome.

嗯。

So Mhmm.

谢谢你们做到了这一点。

Thanks for doing that.

然后是这种破坏所引发的突发性混乱，以及这些因素如何改变游戏格局。

And then this other idea of emergent chaos from that and how those kind of things change the gameplay field.

在你们回应这些问题或讨论它们之前，我想先说一句，我们永远没有足够的时间来探讨我所有想问你们的问题，但我们一定会尽力。

I do wanna say before you kinda answer those things or even talk about them and again, we're never gonna have enough time to go through all the things I I have questions for you, but we'll we'll do our best.

我其实也玩了单人战役，尽管之前被告知今天我们只聚焦于多人模式。

I did play the single player campaign as well even though I was told we're only gonna focus on kinda multiplayer today.

是的。

Mhmm.

因为我超爱这类内容。

Because I love that stuff.

我觉得它非常棒。

And I thought it was great.

时长恰到好处，不会让人觉得拖沓。

It didn't overstay its welcome.

节奏紧凑又有趣，真的很酷。

It was very tight and fun, really cool.

但我想指出，在最后一关的结尾处，一切汇聚到了一起——你和你的小队在战场上冲锋，最终终于汇合了，你知道我说的是哪个时刻。

But I wanted to point out that there's a moment in the end, in the in the final level where everything coalesces and you and your your kind of squad run across the battlefield with you finally meet up with your you know, you know what I'm talking about.

对。

Yes.

那个场景中的这段高潮桥段是我经历过的最出色的单人战役体验之一。

That that set piece in the scene was one of the best single player campaign experiences I've ever had.

真是太棒了。

It was so good.

坦克、直升机、飞机，整个战役的所有元素都在这一刻汇聚在一起。

Tanks, the helicopters, planes, like, all all of the campaign coalescing into one moment.

我只是想说，这真是个亮点。

I just wanna say that was a plus.

我非常喜欢。

I loved it.

哦，这真美好。

Oh, that's lovely.

你真是太体贴了。

That's very kind.

我会让其他人知道的。

I will I will let the the people know.

我的意思是，我认为每个人都欣赏对单人模式的正面评价，因为这个模式对我们来说来得非常及时。

That's I mean, I think everyone appreciates positive comments on something that's it it came in very hot for us, single player.

我们把标准和动机融入到单人模式中，以增强这个团队，凝聚力量，把这件事做成。

It's been it's one of the we tied criterion and motive into single player to bolster that group up and the team up and just get that done.

所以我认为他们出色地帮助我们达到了那个水平。

So I think they did an amazing job of of getting us to to that point.

我知道你提到的那些时刻——当《战地》的氛围真正融合在一起的时候。

And I do know that the moments that you're talking about where it just feels like the orchestration of Battlefield is is coming together.

但没错，确实是这样。

But yes, that's

而且音乐随着场景逐渐升华，感觉非常有动感，太棒了，就像……

And the way the music was swelling with it, like, it felt super dynamic and amazing, like

如果让杰夫听这个播客，特别是这段内容，我都能想象到他会笑，因为他花了很多心思，思考如何在攻击的各个阶段注入恰当的情感节奏。

I I can see Jeff smile if I'm gonna have Jeff listen to this podcast and this particular thing because he spent a lot of time thinking about how to how to get the right kind of beats of emotion in through the stages of that attack.

是的。

So yeah.

我的意思是，我没夸张。

I mean, I I'm not exaggerating.

在那一刻，我差点哭了。

I kinda welled up a little bit in that moment.

我真的感受到了。

Like, I I really felt it.

这太棒了。

It was cool.

对我来说，这简直就是，是的。

And that to me was just like, yeah.

他妈的，电子游戏太棒了。

Fucking video games are awesome.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

你刚才提到的那些让人热泪盈眶的时刻，就有一个是我的。

There's one of my you were talking about welling up.

我认为我职业生涯早期最自豪的时刻之一，是在对《镜之边缘》进行MTD评测时，他们谈到——抱歉，我又要回到很久以前了——但当时有一种‘不使用武器’的游戏理念。

The I think one of the proudest moments early on or earlier on in my career was I think this was an MTD review on Mirror's Edge, and they're talking about the I'm sorry for going back to ancient past but there's this notion of playing without a weapon.

你可以选择做一个和平主义者通关游戏，这根本无所谓。

You could be like a pacifist going through the game, it doesn't matter.

游戏主要关注的是避免冲突，专注于达成目标、完成该做的事，而不是一味地制造冲突。

Like it's primarily about avoiding conflict and primarily about getting to the goal and doing what you're supposed to do and not necessarily about conflict.

但在游戏中有一个时刻，玩家觉得自己被迫使用了武器，因为你能够缴械敌人并使用他们的武器。

But there was a moment in that game where the person felt like they were forced to use the weapon cause you can disarm enemies and use the weapon.

结果他们开始哭了，因为他们觉得自己背叛了角色的信念。

And they started crying because they felt that they betrayed sort of the character.

所以那可能不是真的流泪，但他们确实哽咽了，因为那一刻他们感到自己背叛了角色。

So that was maybe not crying but they they started getting choked up because they felt like betrayed that moment.

是的。

Yeah.

我超爱《镜之边缘》。

I I loved loved Mirror's Edge.

我玩了很多遍。

I played it multiple times.

但这就是我想说的，我认为这是你能得到的最好的反馈。

But so that's sort of what all I'm saying that for is that that's the best I think that's the best feedback that you can get.

玩家完全沉浸在游戏里，无论是感动得热泪盈眶，还是感受到胜利的喜悦，这类体验。

The people lose themselves so into the game that whether it's welling up, whether it's feeling like the sense of victory, those kind things.

这正是我们做游戏的原因。

That's the stuff that we do this for.

对吧？

Right?

没错。

Yep.

这才是你内心真实的情感所在。

That's your true gut emotions for.

是的

Yeah.

本集由Accelbyte赞助播出。

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所以是这样的。

So yeah.

所以我们之前聊到了战术破坏、这种突发的混乱，以及我如何帮助我的团队。

So we talked I was talking about, like, tactical destruction and this, like, emergent chaos and, like, being out being able to help my team.

所有这些元素都完美地融合在了一起，让游戏变得超级有趣，即使我并不是每次都能排在榜首。

Like, all all these things were, like, just really came together in a way that made the game super fun even though I wasn't, you know, top of the list every time.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但所有这些都需要结合在一起，我的意思是，我不想再回到创意总监的话题，但通常来说，如果我们要回到EA的方法论，就会有一个非常明确但强大的游戏核心理念。

But all of those things have to come together with, like I mean, not to get back into the creative director thing, but, like, there is a there's usually, like, a very narrow but powerful if we're gonna go back to EA methodology, x statement of what the game is.

你能告诉我们《战地6》的核心理念是什么吗？

Can you can you tell us what what that was for Battlefield six?

你觉得你们实现了它吗？

And do you felt like you achieved it?

我不能告诉你那个核心理念，因为那是内部保密的陈述。

I cannot tell you the ex statement because that's a behind closed doors ex statement.

我可以说的是，我们为《战地3》和《战地4》制定了核心理念，我一直觉得——我之前跟你说过，我玩《战地3》玩得特别疯，当然《战地4》也玩得很多。

What I what I will say that we wrote the banner the banner of Battlefield three and four and to writing what so I I always feel like, I mean, I told you before, I played I played the shit out of Battlefield three but definitely Battlefield four as well.

《战地4》刚推出时有点粗糙。

Battlefield four came out a little bit rough.

当时很多人遇到了各种bug和其他问题。

Think people were having problems with bugs, bunch of those things.

我们做了大量工作来改进这些问题，但从概念和所有系统来看，我觉得这款游戏非常出色。

We did a ton to improve those things, But conceptually and with all those systems playing, thought that game was amazing.

我知道我有偏见，但那也没办法。

And I know I'm biased but that's, you know, whatever.

我觉得那真的太棒了。

It's I thought that was that was fantastic.

但我总觉得，我们过去靠着小团队就能做到很多，现在我们虽然和顶尖团队竞争，但人手却少得多。

But I always feel like there's we're leaving something that, it's something that we can't get, we pride ourselves to doing a lot with a small team back in the day and like, we're competing with the best but with a smaller group of people.

所以你能投入到每件事上的精力终究是有限的。

So there's only so much attention that you can pay certain things.

所以，比如一个道具只达到了你期望的70%，那些细节上的关注，比如那种不回头、不试图复刻过去，而是继承这个公式并加以扩展的执着，把我们团队的力量注入其中，创造出更出色但依然延续这一脉络的作品——这也正是我之前提到《战地3》和《战地4》的原因。

So say, a gadget only gets 70% where you want it to be, the attention to detail here and there, those kind of things, like the the obsession on not looking back and trying to recreate something, but taking that formula and expanding on it and trying to lend the weight to the muscle of the team that we're putting together into making something even better but in the vein of that's also why I was talking about Spirits of Success or Battlefield three and four.

不是说，哦，抱歉，我又跑题了，我向你道歉，但当我去拜访Black

It's not, oh, I've talked to sorry, I don't this is again, I'm a little bit tangent man, so I apologize, but when I visited Black

死亡之地，这里有规则。

Death There's rules here.

没有规则，我想聊什么就聊什么。

There's no rules, I talk about whatever you

当我去暴雪拜访时，他们正在开发《暗黑破坏神3》，我觉得那也是一个非常漫长的开发周期，他们意识到自己雇了很多《暗黑破坏神2》的粉丝。

visited Blizzard back when they were doing Diablo three, and I think that was also like a very long kind of development cycle, and the realization that they had hired a bunch of fans from, of Diablo two.

如果你是个粉丝，进来做游戏，然后你坐在那里，希望《暗黑破坏神3》完全像《暗黑破坏神2》那样，也许回头来看，他们确实希望如此，但这样你会把自己困在某些固定的模式里——那些过去非常成功的东西，如今可能不再适用，因为现在的玩家已经习惯了更多的便利，或者某些系统创新已经变成了玩家的期待，未来游戏都必须跟进，诸如此类。

And then if you're if you're if you're a fan coming in and making a game, and then you're sitting there like, wanting Diablo three to be exactly like Diablo two, and maybe that's what they would have wanted with hindsight, those kind of things, but it's you do lock yourself into certain patterns, stuff that worked super well back in the day that may not be not be so successful in today's market where people have gotten used to a lot more convenience or a system that someone has a part of the game that someone has innovated into that's become an expectation of future games to follow and a bunch of those things.

所以我不想被《战地3》和《战地4》的设定束缚，而是想抓住其中真正有效的东西，那些哲学层面的理念，比如你提到的团队协作——当你谈论这些时，我内心会不由自主地微笑，因为我和前《战地》创意总监拉尔斯聊过很多次，关于‘不扣扳机时的玩法’：如果我不开枪，我还能做什么？

So I didn't wanna be slave to what the BF three, BF four setup was, but to take what worked there, what are some of the philosoph philosophical thing, like you were talking about team play, like I'm it makes me smile inside when you're talking about those things because it's like we've talked to me, me and Lars, former Battlefield, the creative director, I've talked a lot about the gameplay without the gun, like if I'm not shooting, what am I doing?

所以，《战地》的兵种设计，如果你把武器拿掉，你依然应该能感受到自己所扮演的这个兵种的独特性。

And so like the the Battlefield classes, if you remove the weapons, you should still feel like the class that you're playing as.

那么，你为团队提供什么？

So what what do you what do you supply the team with?

如果你没有枪，你如何帮助团队？

How do you help the team if you don't have a gun?

这对我来说非常重要。

And that to me is super important.

我觉得我们的团队做得非常好。

I think we've I think the team did a great job.

我觉得我们还能做得更好。

I think we could do even better.

还有很多可以改进的地方。

There's more things there.

我渴望做更多，渴望深化这些内容，但这些是实实在在的——无论你玩什么，比如：我们没有侦察兵，怎么知道敌人从哪里来？怎么标记目标？我们没有支援角色，谁来照顾我们？

I'm hungry to do more, hungry to deepen that stuff, but that is palpable, like, regardless of what you're playing, like, oh, we don't have a recon, how are we gonna know where the enemy is coming from, or how do we get this marked up, or we don't have a support character so who is who is taking care of us?

谁在为我们提供弹药？

Who is who is supplying us with ammunition?

谁在为我们提供这个？

Who is supplying us with this?

或者，你知道，这对我来说很有意义，当你能真正感受到角色的存在，即使没有人们通常做的主要事情——射击和枪手。

Or, you know, that's that's meaningful to me, like when you can really sense the role even without the the primary thing that people are doing, which is shooting and shooters.

是的。

Yeah.

在游戏中，你能明显感觉到你们团队确实考虑过这一点。

And it's very evident in the game that you thought, you know, your team thought about that.

嗯。

Mhmm.

因为这是我一生中第一次被强烈吸引去扮演医疗兵。

Because I'm, like, pretty much for the first time in my life compelled to play a medic.

我喜欢这样。

Like, I love it.

我玩得非常开心。

I am having so much fun with that.

它会以某种方式奖励你，让你在尝试其他更熟悉的兵种时感觉更好

And it rewards you in ways that makes you feel better when you go out and and try other classes that you're probably more familiar

熟悉。

with.

嗯。

Mhmm.

它带给你一种胜任感和成就感，这在基于职业的多人游戏中很难获得。

It gives you this, like, feeling of competency and accomplishment that is hard hard to get in a in a in a class based multiplayer game.

是的。

Yeah.

正如我所说，我对最终的结果感到满意，但问题是，复活队友的满足感，能和打出一公里外的爆头相提并论吗？

Like I said, I I am happy with a bunch of with what we ended up with, but it's again, like, how do we does it feel as satisfying to revive someone as, getting a thousand meter headshot or something?

我们该如何让每个人觉得是自己任务的部分都充满成就感？

Like, how do we add satisfaction in everything that people can feel is their task?

比如工程师的维修工作，我们能怎样让它变得更刺激？

Like repairing for engineer, for example, what are ways that we can make that even more exciting?

就像用你手头的任何装备完成一次精彩的操作，比如说，我用一个梯子出现在敌人完全意想不到的位置，彻底压倒了他们；或者我在这里部署了一个重生信标，让我们能够以出其不意的方式插入战场，不管具体是什么方式。

Like pulling off a clutch moment with whatever equipment that you have, say that it's like, okay, just out thunk the enemy, I'm out thinking the competition by using a ladder in this position where you're completely surprising them or I put a spawn beacon, a deploy beacon over here and it's like it allowed us to insert in a way that surprised the enemy or whatever it may be.

这款游戏中有太多这样的时刻，当它们突然发生时，就会产生那种奇妙的《战地》时刻，我认为这些时刻正是人们聚在一起聊天时津津乐道的‘水冷却时刻’。对我来说，这些就是多人游戏中令人难忘、如电影般的体验，而我在其他我热爱的游戏里却很少感受到，所以我希望看到更多这样的时刻。

Like there's so many parts of this game that when it clicks, that's when you get those magical sort of Battlefield moments that I think they create these water cooler moment stories when people are talking about the game and, you know, it to me, it's like that's the cinematic memorable things that you encounter in multiplayer that I I don't really get from other games that I love and want to have more of.

是的。

Yeah.

而且基于这些时刻，它们还促使我主动打电话给朋友，说：‘今晚咱们来玩《战地》吧。’

And piggybacking on that, those moments have also compelled me to actually, like, call up my friends and say, let's play Battlefield tonight.

通常我不会这么做，因为组织大家一起玩实在太麻烦了。

Like, I want I usually don't do that because, you know, it's a lot of work and get wrangling people together.

但这次我真的想和朋友一起体验这些有趣而有成就感的瞬间，而不是和陌生人一起——这再次证明了，我认为，这款游戏的整体设计有多么出色。

But, like, I actually want to experience those fun, rewarding accomplishments with my friends rather than strangers, which, again, is a testament to, I think, to how how the game is all all laid out.

因为当我回顾自己迄今为止投入这款游戏的有限时间时，我知道我还会继续玩下去，可能还要玩上几百个小时。

Because when I'm looking at, you know, the very significant but little amount of time I've played in put into the game so far, and I know I'm going to keep playing for probably hundreds more hours or whatever.

我已经彻底陷进这个游戏里了。

Like, I'm I'm locked into this game now.

就像我之前说的，我觉得《战地：前线2》中那种EA特有的连贯性延续了下来

And like I said, I I I feel like I feel like there's that kind of dice EA connective tissue from Battlefront two specifically

嗯。

Mhmm.

这种感觉让我觉得非常舒适。

That carried over that feels really comfortable to me.

我觉得，可能那些平时不是《战地》玩家的人，也会因为这一点而觉得这款游戏非常亲切。

And I feel like maybe other other people who might not normally be Battlefield players will feel pretty at home playing this game because of that.

这种联系并不明显，也许我只是因为期待它、对它有感情和好感，所以高估了它的存在。

It's not overt, and maybe I'm overestimating it because I'm looking for it, and I have affinity and fondness for that.

但它确实存在。

But but it's definitely there.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我还想问你另一件事，你知道，推出一款《战地》游戏，总得有些新东西。

One of the other things I wanted to ask you about was, you know, you can't put out a Battlefield game without something new.

对吧？

Right?

你的意思是，从你的角度来看，为了让《战地6》让所有热爱《战地》系列的玩家都感到温暖亲切，你们必须实现哪些核心卖点？

You like, you know, what in your mind, what what are the kind of back of the box bullet points that you had to achieve to make Battlefield six warm and fuzzy for everyone who's loved Battlefield

嗯。

Mhmm.

既要呼应《战地3》和《战地4》，又要为这个系列开拓新领域。

And, you know, call back to three and four, but also take the franchise into new territory.

我的意思是，只要你愿意深入聊聊战术破坏，我随时奉陪。

I mean, again, I'll anytime you wanna start nerding out about tactical destruction, I'm ready.

但还有很多其他方面。

But there's, you know, there's a bunch of other stuff.

对吧？

Right?

你光是浏览这个游戏的主菜单、探索各种功能，就能花上好几个小时。

It you could spend hours navigating through the front end menu of and doing things in this in this game.

那么，你知道，那些关键功能到底是什么，你们必须确保做好的？

So what, you know, what were those things that were kinda, like, the core features that you had to nail?

从我的角度来看，这有点复杂。

So from from my perspective, so this is a little bit tricky.

我不想显得无聊，但对我来说，核心目标是打下一个坚实的基础，让《战地》系列感觉像是精神续作，真正回归本源。

So I I don't wanna be boring, but for me, it's like setting a foundation that's a solid foundation that feels like spirit successor and a true back to form for Battlefield was sort of the primary goal for me.

对我来说，重点不是我们如何创新，如何添加新东西。

So for me, it wasn't like how do we innovate, how do we add another thing.

对我来说，现在的创新在于精准执行玩家对《战地》游戏的期待——把兵种做对，把破坏效果做对，找出我们在《战地2042》中没有实现的、属于我们DNA的核心要素，然后在这里补上。

For me, it's like innovation right now is in executing what the what the fans, the players expect out of a Battlefield game, getting the classes right, getting the destruction right, like what is it in our DNA that we're not fulfilling in say 2042 and that kind of stuff that we can do right here.

这正是我们的主要目标，也是我们之前提到的‘X’的一部分，或者说那种高层次的愿景。

That was the primary objective, and that is also part of part of the x that we were talking about before or that that kind of vision, what's the high level vision.

这不仅仅是专注于执行，更是为了真正对得起这个系列。

And that is very much like it wasn't just execution focused but it was basically to do right by the the franchise.

但与其做成一个‘这是那个完全不同类型的游戏’，就像这里的情况一样，我们更多是在各个层面进行渐进式的创新。

But so instead of having like a this is the game where and then like a big completely different thing, which which wasn't the case here, it's more innovations in all the different aspects of this.

所以从横向来看，比如我们有‘龙之复活’功能，之前还讨论过‘击中你的座驾’这个点，我们在如何思考和处理兵种本身方面也进行了创新。

So like horizontal horizontally, there's like, oh, we have the Dragon Revive thing, we were talking about the Hit Your Ride thing, there's innovations in terms of how we think and how we work with the the classes itself.

我们回顾了一些之前做过的事情，想着：我们曾经做过这个，但能不能做得更好？

Some things that we've leaned on and looked back at, oh, we did this, but could we do that better?

当这些渐进式的创新和新功能贯穿整个游戏时，问题就在于很难把它们当作一个整体来谈论，你懂我的意思吗？

So there's more what what becomes problematic when you have those incremental kind of innovations and new things throughout the title is that it becomes difficult to talk about as one big thing, if know what I mean.

所以我们大量讨论了核心玩法层面，比如动觉战斗系统——你能否仅通过观察自己的操作输入或输出来学习如何引导和操控武器？所有这些由戴夫、杰克、弗洛里安和团队打造的精彩核心战斗系统，都是为了在更宏大的目标下推动：让《战地》重回巅峰，并建立一个可以持续发展的基础，让我们在此基础上不断前进。

So we we were talking a lot about from a core gameplay perspective, we were talking about kinesthetic combat system, like, can you learn how to how to guide and work with the weapon by just looking at the input or the the output of your actions, for example, and everything that that wonderful core combat system team with Dave, Jack, Florian and the guys put in, like, all of that is driven by certain smaller focus areas within the larger scope of getting Battlefield back on the map and and building a foundation that can last for, like, let's let's build on this.

让我们把它做得更好。

Let's make it even better.

所以，我无法指出某一个具体的东西，说这就是一个完全背离以往《战地》系列的创新。

So there's not one thing that I could point at that's like this is this is the innovation and something that's completely a departure from past Battlefields.

相反，我们更关注《战地》的本质，关注那些我们比其他游戏做得更好、玩家在别处无法体验到的核心DNA，并强化它们，让它们变得更强。

It's rather a look at what Battlefield is, what's core to our DNA that we do better than other games or where players can't get to anywhere else, and strengthen those, make that make that even better.

这从我的角度来看，就是我们的使命。

That's been that's been sort of the mission from my perspective.

我的意思是，听到这样的话令人耳目一新，尤其是来自EA这样一家大公司，以及《战地》这样庞大的IP，还有众多杰出工作室共同打造这款游戏。

I mean, it's alarmingly refreshing to hear to hear that, especially from a company as big as EA and with the the IP as big as Battlefield and all the amazing studios that came together to make the game.

这实际上展现了所有人对《战地》本质的承诺，真是太棒了。

So that actually just shows everyone's commitment to to what Battlefield is, and it's awesome.

你之前提到过单人战役，当时有一种信念，认为战役会很棒，玩家会欣赏这种前后连贯、有完整主线的故事，而不是由一连串一战和二战片段拼凑而成，它确实是一个可以完整体验的单人游戏。

And there was a belief you were talking about campaign back before, there was a belief that like, there's gonna be it's gonna be good, people will appreciate having campaign back with a with a red thread kind of front to back story that's it's not fragmented with vignettes of World War one and the World War two stuff, and it's not, It is actually a single player thing that you can play through.

能把这一点重新带回，对我们来说也是一种胜利。

Just having that back is also like a win for us.

所以我们一直在审视所有方面，思考如何让这个整体对我们的团队和玩家都更具吸引力。

So we were just looking at at everything and seeing how do we make this package compelling for ourselves and for our players.

是的。

Yeah.

你们确实成功做到了。

You you definitely achieved that for sure.

你还提到了那种动态的移动机制。

You also mentioned the kind of kinetic movement.

这在我觉得非常棒的事项清单上。

That's on my on my list of of things that feel amazing.

当我想到这种机制如何具体融入那些战术性破坏时刻时，这同样是一个非常出色的组合。

And when I think about how that specifically plays into those those kind of tactical destruction moments, that's a a very winning combination too.

因为传统上，《战地》系列一直拥有规模更大的破坏场景。

Because I think traditionally, Battlefield has had these much larger destruction set pieces.

而现在，随着对这一系统的专注，它变得微观了。

And now with this kind of focus on on this system, it's micro.

它无处不在，你在游戏中的每一个角落都能感受到。

It's everywhere everywhere you are in the game.

而且它不仅仅是一个预设场景。

And and it's not just a set piece.

它正在形成，实际上改变了关卡、节奏以及这些微观时刻的策略。

It's it's forming it's actually changing the level and the flow and the strategy on on those micro moment moments.

谈谈你们是如何设计这些时刻的，我的意思是，恐怕很难说你们是如何规划这些时刻的，因为你们真正能做的只是搭建好系统，让它按你们期望的方式运作，而最终还是要看玩家的表现。

Talk about how you guys kind of, like I mean, I guess it's hard to say how you plan for those moments because all you can really do is is set the systems up to to work as as you want them, and it's really up to the players.

但你知道，创造那些在战场上显得自然、 effortless 的时刻，背后需要大量的创意、设计和技术投入。

But, you know, as there is a great deal of of creative and design and tech that goes into into creating those moments that feel natural and effortless on the battlefield.

是的。

Mhmm.

哦，这其实也回溯到我们之前讨论过的很多内容。

Oh, this ties back to a bunch of things that we talked about before as well.

比如，我们曾谈到过我的工作、愿景的清晰度，以及那些相关的事情。

So, like, we were talking about my job, clarity in vision, a lot of those things.

当你坐下来思考如何让游戏中的破坏系统发挥作用时。

Like, when you're sitting down and looking at how you want Destruction to work in games.

我想特别提到里卡·安特罗亚，他负责领导破坏团队，把握愿景、传播理念，并确保它在日常工作中得以落实——他会审视地图，观察哪些地方我们偏离了最初设定的目标，并加以纠正。

I I wanna shout out Rikka Antroya who is running the Destruction team as well and is kind of handling, taking care of the vision and spreading the message, making sure it works on a daily basis, works, looks at the levels, what they are, opportunities where we've where we're sort of stepping away from what we set set out to do and getting that right.

但我要说，初期投入了大量工作，而且再次回到不同工作室之间的复杂情况，以及在瑞典开发的多人地图，我们需要思考如何让破坏系统发挥作用，同时避免造成360度混乱的交战，而我们原本希望让玩家拥有更清晰的前线对话体验。

But I will say there was a lot of work in the beginning, and again, back to the different studios, all that sort of the complexity of the situation, and multiplayer maps that were being built in in Sweden, we need to talk about how do we lean into destruction in a way that doesn't make for confusing three sixty engagements, a bunch of that stuff that we wanted to allow people to have a little bit more clear front lines conversations that we had.

简而言之，我们在开发的某个阶段达成了一致，制定了一份愿景文档，明确了我们需要达成的目标。

So what this to cook this down a little bit is like we agreed on a vision document at some point in development where this is what we need to hit.

这几乎就像是，当你在做一个更初级的创意总监职位时，比如你正在开发一款手机游戏或者非常小的作品。

And it's almost like, you know, when we're talking about the if you're you can be a creative director at a little bit more junior level on if you're if you're making a mobile game or something very small.

我不是说手机游戏不能很庞大。

I don't wanna mobile games can be huge.

但根据游戏的规模，如果足够小，你完全可以全面负责整个项目的创意方向。

But like, depending on the scope of the game, you could you could be creatively in charge of the whole thing as if it's small enough.

但像‘破坏’这样的系统，在这样一个大型游戏中，它本身就需要独立的愿景，因为它是整个游戏的核心支柱之一。

But something like Destruction is so big in a a game like this that that's that's like it requires its own vision as like, yeah, for the the totality of the game, it's a pillar.

但当你深入进去，制定出这个系统的愿景陈述时，我不知道你是不是整理了一份二十页的PDF，里面列出了各种机会，以及我们该如何思考这个问题。实际上，团队早已达成共识：我们不希望所有东西都被彻底炸毁、无处可藏，这类情况被称为‘苹果去核’——团队，包括里克，他们在处理时就像在吃苹果，但始终保留核心部分，绝不触碰。

But when you dive into that and you set up like, okay, here's a vision statement for this thing, and I I don't know if it's like, I think you put together like a 20 page PDF or something with like opportunities and like here's how we need to think about this, and the team had already, we'd already aligned and established on the fact that we don't want everything to just be blown up and obliterated so there's nothing to hide behind and those kind of things, like, they called it apple coring, that the team that were, and Rick and the team that were working on it through essentially like you're you're taking bites of the apple but there's always the core there that you're not gonna wanna touch.

因此，我们在这一愿景上投入了大量工作，确保我们拥有一个切实可行、能够执行的方向。

And so, there's a lot of work went into alignment on that vision and making sure that we had something that we felt we could execute towards.

但当然，这还远未结束。

But of course it doesn't stop there.

接下来是细致入微的调整：我们不希望让人感觉一切都是被预先规划好的，这绝对不是我们设计的初衷。

Then it's the meticulous sort of, we don't want it to feel like we planned for everything to happen, that's certainly not what we're designing for.

我们设计的是涌现式玩法，这不仅仅是破坏，而是《战地》系列的全部。

What we're designing for is for emergent gameplay, like the, and that's not just destruction, that's the entirety of Battlefield.

这些元素如何相互作用？比如我们游戏中存在的车辆剪刀石头布系统，武器之间如何相互克制？如果把这个元素放到那个情境中会发生什么？诸如此类的事情，这才是我们期待看到的。

How do these peep, how do these things play together, like, what is the vehicle rock paper systems, rock paper scissors system that we have in play, like how do the weapons play out against each other, what happens if you take this element and put it in this context, all that sort of stuff, like that's that's what we're excited to see.

玩家会如何使用？

How do players use?

有时会发生一些不幸的意外，这些是我们未曾预料到的系统副作用，比如用锤子击打无人机，竟然让人能飞上天，这完全不在我们的计划之中。

Sometimes it's unfortunate things happen, that's like side effects of the systems that we're putting in that we don't expect, like there was the thing with sledgehammer to a drone that allowed people to just scale, take take off into the sky that we didn't plan for.

但说到破坏，关键在于：在已知有破坏机制、并明确破坏愿景的前提下，如何设计它，让玩家能利用它来制造惊喜——比如从二楼突袭敌人，达成目标。最简单的例子就是我所说的《太空侵略者》式掩体：当双方在争夺旗帜或据点时，激烈的战斗会逐渐摧毁周围的环境。

But when it comes to destruction, it's like how do you level the sign knowing that you have destruction, knowing what the vision is for the destruction, the design of that so that it's something that players can use to surprise people on the 2nd Floor, to get to an enemy that they need to get to, take out the simplest thing, it's just what I call Space Invaders cover, where it's just you're having a grand battle over a conquest over flag or something, and then that's going to whittle down destruction or whittle down environments around there.

这会以一种彻底改变你对这片空间认知的方式产生影响。

So it's going to affect it in a way that completely changes how you think about that space.

所以是的。

So Yeah.

当然，是的。

And, of course Yeah.

这和兵种有关，是的。

That's tied into the classes because Yeah.

我现在可以为我的队伍架设梯子。

I have a ladder now that I can put up for my team.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对吧？

Right?

所有这些元素——这些交织在一起的要素——共同造就了这些我们一直称之为‘水 cooler 时刻’的瞬间，因为这正是多人游戏最精彩的部分：和朋友或他人一起经历那些独一无二的时刻。

And so so all of those things that that kind of soup of things that come together to make these these, you know, we keep calling them water cooler moments because they are that's that's the best part of multiplayer games is, like, you know, having that experience with people or your friends that was unique to the situation.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这种事在这款游戏中经常发生。

And that happens a lot in this game.

是的。

Yeah.

这真的很棒。

And it's really it's kinda wonderful.

是的。

Yeah.

我也这么认为。

I think so.

看到人们掌握这些技巧时，我会感动得流泪。当我看到人们理解这些系统，清楚地知道地图上其他玩家的位置，就像体育中的组织核心一样——那些总能比你多想一步的人，你会疑惑：他为什么这么做？然后突然间，一切都明白了。他们不只是想着自己，只考虑眼前：怎么干掉这个人，或者怎么活下去。

And seeing people master those things, like it brings a tear to my eye when I see people just understand these systems and have enough understanding of where other people are on the map, and like it's the, know, playmakers in sports or something that's just people who are thinking one step ahead of you, and you're like, they're surprising you with why is he doing this, and then all of a sudden it just it clicks, you see it, like, don't just think about themselves and the short horizon of like this is this is how I'm gonna kill this guy or this is how I'm gonna survive.

他们更关注的是：我们如何赢得胜利，如何控制这个据点？这些才是真正令人惊叹的时刻，即使在观看直播时，我也常被玩家展现出的这种操作所惊喜。

It's more like how do I set us us up for winning or owning this point or whatever, like those are the truly impressive things that I see that that people are managing to pull off and surprise me even when I watch streams, people playing those kind things.

我真的很喜欢，是的。

I love I I yeah.

我就是喜欢看人们如何融入游戏，看到那些令人惊喜的时刻。

I just love seeing how people get on with the game and seeing those those surprising place.

是的。

Yeah.

当然，如果你戴上设计师的帽子，你就得设计和构建这些系统，让我们能与玩家共同创造这些精彩的时刻，但同时也不能让玩家成为这些机制的专家并加以利用。

And, of course, you know, if you put your designer hat on, you know, you also have to kind of design and build these systems in a way that, you know, we can have these awesome moments with players, but, also, we can't let players become masters of that and exploit it Mhmm.

你知道的，那样会破坏游戏平衡。

You know, and break the game.

那么，你们是怎么处理战术性破坏机制的，让它不会感觉像单纯的蹲点？

So, like, you know, how did how did you guys work with the tactical destruction to make it so it doesn't feel like you know, it's not the equivalent of, like, camping.

对吧？

Right?

这种如此酷炫的机制，到底是怎么运作的？

Like, how how does that work with something so cool?

因为，我记得有一些具体时刻，比如当我试图生存、击杀敌人、支援队友并撤离时，周围的建筑却正在坍塌。

Because, you know, I can I'm I'm just recalling specific moments where, you know, again, this building is falling down around me while I'm trying to both stay alive, kill someone, support my team, and get out.

把这样的体验交给玩家，确实是非常强大的设计。

Like, you know, though that is a very powerful thing to give to players.

但嗯。

But Mhmm.

从技术和设计的角度来看，这是一件非常困难的事情。

It's it's a very hard thing to do from a technical and design standpoint.

非常具有挑战性。

Super tough.

而且again，这是一项极其漫长的工作，我们并不是从《战地6》才开始的。

And again, it's it's it's such a it's such a long we we we didn't just start Battlefield six.

我之前提到过里克·加纳。

So like, I was talking about Rick Garner earlier.

他长期以来一直在《战地》系列中负责破坏和动态世界系统。

He's been doing destruction and the dynamic world stuff on Battlefield for a long time.

所以有些内容我们根本不需要在《战地6》中重新讨论。

So some of this is we didn't even have to relitigate for Battlefield six.

这些是我们从骨子里就明白的，一些我们之前已经确立过、或验证过有效的做法。

It's like stuff that we know in our guts that this is some this is some of the things that we need that we established before or have seen work.

但我认为，尤其是在破坏机制方面，关键并不在于‘这种伤害到底能造成多大破坏’会彻底改变玩家的玩法。

But I think part of especially when it comes to destruction, it's not so much on like, oh, this damage how much damage this one takes is completely gonna upend how people are playing this thing.

更重要的是，这些玩家中有没有人希望这面墙立着，有没有人希望这面墙倒掉？

It's more the does one of these guys want this wall to stand and does one of these guys want this wall to go?

他们知道会发生什么吗？

And do they know what happens?

他们知道自己的行为能影响它吗？他们知道事情发生后会是什么样子吗？

Do they know that they can affect it and do they know what it's going to look like after that has happened?

如果你能对这些问题都回答‘是’，那么我认为你就为自己创造了一种猫鼠游戏或象棋博弈般的体验——比如，我需要在对方完成某个操作前干掉他，因为那个操作会削弱我们在这片区域的防御，或者剥夺我原本的机会。

Like, those are the if if you can answer yes to those things, then I think you've set yourself up a little bit of a cat and mouse or chess game or whatever where it's just like, okay, I need to take this guy out before he can do x on this map which weakens our defense on this thing or that takes away an opportunity that I have.

而这一切很大程度上是通过反复迭代和玩家测试实现的。

And a lot of that is through iteration, through playtests.

比如，我们引入了BF实验室，没错。

We we introduced BF Labs for example, again, that's Yeah.

借鉴我们的CTE机制，让玩家进来问：你们有考虑过破坏机制吗？

Taking a page from our CTE, having people coming in, like, do you guys think about destruction?

你们有没有觉得能影响这个世界？

Did you feel like you could affect the world?

我再跟你说一件事，你有没有玩过像俄罗斯方块这样的游戏，那种让你几乎在梦里都看到方块不断下落，甚至到一种不舒服的程度？

Like, I'll tell you something again, nerdy on have you ever played like Tetris and those kind of games where you just you're almost dreaming of those blocks falling down to an uncomfortable level?

是的。

Yeah.

好吧。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，是的。

I mean yes.

实际上，我在这档播客里采访过俄罗斯方块的创作者。

It's called actually, I interviewed creator of Tetris here on this podcast.

那是一期很棒的节目。

It's a great episode.

你应该

You should

去听一下。

go listen to it.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yeah.

他谈了很多关于心流状态的事情，嗯。

He he he talked a lot about flow state Mhmm.

而且，那种感觉其实是他设计游戏时的一部分。

And and and that kind of, like, that was actually part of his design for the game.

是的。

Yeah.

你应该去了解一下。

You should check it out.

很棒。

It's great.

所以

So

一定会的。

Definitely will.

所以我认为，如果你在开发过程中也有过类似经历，我不太想再提这个，但听起来确实如此。

So I think so if you ever had that during development, again, I hate to go back to this sounds like yeah.

我这一生只做过两件事，但在开发《镜之边缘》的时候，正因为如此——可能有些人还不知道，这是一款跑酷游戏，所以我们思考的是：如何利用环境到达目的地？

I've I've only done two things in my life, but it's as we're developing Mirror's Edge, because of that, that's probably for people who don't know it's parkour game, so it's like how do I use the environment to get where I need to go?

于是，下班后，由于深深沉浸于我们试图解决的问题、系统和动作设计中，当我走出家门时，开始用新的眼光看待斯德哥尔摩的环境。

And so leaving work and and being so immersed in the problems and stuff that we were trying to solve and the systems and moves that we that we had, you started looking at the environments in Stockholm then when I went out.

哦，我可以利用这个、这个、还有这个。

It's like, oh, I could do this to this to this.

你开始以一种不同的方式看待现实世界，这很有趣，但也有点诡异——你沉浸其中太久，为什么现在还会想这些？

You just start looking at the real world in a different way which was cool but but a little bit like freaky that it's like you've been sitting with this so much that why am I talk why am I thinking about this now?

你应该把这些想法留给游戏世界。

That's like leave leave that to the game world.

但同样地，我希望人们在面对战术性破坏时也能有同样的感受，不是想着‘如果我炸了这个会怎样’。

But in the in the same way, what I'm hoping is that people feel the same when it comes to tactical destruction, not what would happen if I blow this up.

但我希望人们能有一种观察世界的眼光，看到其中蕴含的机遇，并思考如何最好地利用——在这个空间里，对我有什么优势？

But I do want people to have a sense of looking at the world, sense of seeing the opportunities that is presented therein, and thinking about how they best can what what's the advantage for me in this space?

我该如何影响它？

How do I affect it?

如果他们能真正精通这个系统，就能提前两步思考。

And then if they're really good at mastering that system, that they can think two steps ahead.

我需要在做这些事时保持一定的精准度，因为一旦我掌控了这里，就不希望一切都被炸得片甲不留。

It's like I need to apply a little bit of precision when I'm doing these things because when I own this, I don't want everything to be shelled to nothing.

比如以《战地4》为例，我们有一个地图叫Zavod 311，那是一个废弃的俄罗斯坦克工厂。

So like this, to use Battlefield four example, we had a map called Zavod 311, that's an old Russian abandoned tank factory.

在《战地4》中，我们有一个名为‘革命’的概念，抱歉。

In Battlefield four we had the concept of revolution Sorry.

我们

We

经典。

Iconic.

好的。

Okay.

我也喜欢这个关卡。

I love that level too.

致敬Hoch和Christian Plumfosch。

Shout out to Hoch, Christian Plumfosch.

总之，我们有一个叫‘演变’的概念，希望在触发某些事件时，地图的战术状态会发生变化。

Anyway, so we we had the concept of Levolution that for different we wanted tactical or tactical states that just changed the way that you that the map played when you triggered certain things.

在这个地图上，你有一个倒计时器，我忘了初始时间是多少，但你可以启动或暂停它。

And on that map, it's you you have a countdown clock that I forget what the timer starts at, but you can start and stop that thing.

所以，如果你控制了这个点并且不希望它触发，你可能会想一直锁定计时器；而那些希望烟囱倒塌的人，则希望它启动——因为爆炸会引发烟囱倒塌，形成大量地形，让坦克在那片区域自由移动。

So if you're in possession of that point and you don't want this thing to go off, you might wanna keep that timer locked down for people who want that want the chimney then to fall, which is the an explosion that sets off a chimney that falls down and creates a lot of geometry where tank tanks can kind of freely roam on that spot before this happens.

当然，了解这些事件的最终结果后，你可能希望它发生，因为这样一来，这个点就主要变成步兵占优势的区域，而之前这里完全可能被坦克彻底控制。

And of course, like knowing what the end result is of those things, could want that to happen because then this point becomes predominantly about like infantry gets a leg up where before it's been possible to completely dominate and lock this down with tanks.

人们要么躲在建筑里、鼠洞里，或者别的地方，要么坦克就能直接找到他们。

Like people are either in buildings, in their mouse holes or whatever, or the tanks can just get to them.

如果你是步兵玩家，你可能不希望摧毁建筑，比如你希望保留一些角落，以便当坦克不可避免地开始炮击你时，你可以四处躲避。

And if you're a if you're a infantry player then you might not want to take out buildings for example, you want you might want to make sure that you have some corners to run around when the tank inevitably starts shelling you, for example.

但在这之后，烟囱倒塌了，现在你们几乎被迫像鼹鼠一样藏在地下，因为坦克会开始摧毁建筑，以便在地图上更自由地移动。

But maybe after that state, those chimney has come down and it's almost like now you guys have forced almost like moles underground because the tanks are going to start chewing up buildings to be able to have more free rain getting around on the level.

是的。

Yeah.

这是一个多阶段破坏的示例，分阶段思考非常有趣。

And that's like an example of multi stage destruction that is just interesting to think about in phases.

如果玩家们真正掌握了这些技巧，当他们与这些领域的高手对战时，他们可以将环境转变为己方的优势，当然，也要学会在计划失败时灵活应变。

And if people really master it, if you're playing with masters of these things, that they can they can change this the the that environment to their team's advantage, but of course also learn to adapt if the plans fall through.

所以

So

这些方面，我的确完全同意你的所有观点。

those things I mean, I totally agree with all that.

我能看出这些都在实际游戏中体现出来了。

I can see all of that in in play.

在我为我们的采访做准备时，我看了很多关于这款游戏的短视频评测。

When I was preparing for our our interview, I I went and watched a lot of, like, kind of short form reviews of

关于

of

这款游戏。

the game.

而且不止一两次，我看到有人抱怨地图太小了。

And more than a couple times, I saw people complaining about the maps feel too small.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我只是忍不住对着屏幕说，是的。

I and I I just found myself talking to the screen going, yeah.

但这是因为这些破坏系统以及其他所有机制协同作用得非常好。

But it's because they put all these systems in with the destruction and, like, all these like, it all works together in a in a really good way.

而且，你知道，我能理解为什么有些人会说，这毕竟是《战地》。

And, you know, I can see how some people might say, well, it's Battlefield.

我们得有那种大规模的战斗，而这些确实存在。

We have to have these big, you know, mass and there are those.

就像，很明显，它做得非常出色且聚焦，从地图设计来看，它支持系统、支持玩法、支持兵种、支持载具。

Like, know, it's very like, it seems very, like, well done and focused in a way where, you know, it's it's obvious to me, like, the level design of the maps, again, supports the systems, supports the gameplay, supports the classes, supports vehicles.

所有这些都结合得如此完美，让人感觉……你知道的？

Like, it's all it's all put together so so well that it just feels you know?

是的。

Yeah.

它给人一种独特而有趣的感觉，这是我从其他很多游戏中得不到的。

It feels it feels really, like, just unique and interesting in a way that I'm not getting from many other games.

而且，你知道，我个人觉得作为玩家，我连皮毛都没摸到，我知道还有更多内容即将推出。

And I, you know, I I personally feel like I haven't even scratched the surface as a player, and I know that there's so much more coming.

所以这真的让人非常兴奋。

So it's it's really exciting.

是的。

Yes.

谢谢你这么说。

And and thank you for saying that.

对。

Yeah.

我认为需要监控地图尺寸，我们之前谈过Xevod 311，那是我最喜欢的地图之一。

It's I think monitoring map sizes and we talked about Xevod three eleven which is one of my favorite levels.

它在战地系列地图中属于偏小的中型地图，但每张地图在形状上都非常独特——是更长条形的，还是方形的？地图的形状如何？玩家需要在多大的区域内移动？从A点跑到B点有多令人沮丧？

That's on the small side of a medium sized Battlefield game but every sorry, Battlefield map.

我个人觉得，当地图上旗帜的布置带有一点自然的不对称性时，战地游戏的感觉会更真实，但通常我们会进行测量，以确保这些设计的公平性。比如，如果是五点争夺模式，前三点之间的距离加起来是多少？是不是所有点都等距？还是说，这是一种不对称，但依然公平的不对称？你懂我的意思吗？

But every map is very unique in terms of like, is this more oblong, is it square, like what's the shape of the map and how much real estate do players have to kind of navigate around and how frustrating is it to run from point a to point b, how how so personally I think Battlefield is when there's a little bit of organic asymmetry to how flags are placed and that kind of stuff on the map, I think those are the most that feels a little bit more authentic to me, but what we tend to do is to measure so that there's fairness in those things, measure like a boring if it's like a five flag thing, it's like what's the what's the distance between the three first flags for example, if you sum those up, like is this instead of being everything being equidistant, is it like it's asymmetry but it's still fair asymmetry if you know what I mean?

所以，是的。

So like Yeah.

总之，这就是关于地图形状的问题。

Anyway, that's about shape of map.

但我们正在开展的实时服务项目，这类事情当然我们也会关注。

But what we are doing launching in live service, those kind things, of course, we're going to look at.

我们即将推出超大型地图。

We have huge map maps coming out.

想想火风暴，我们还有钨矿，那个叫什么来着，比如奇迹谷之类的。

Think Firestorm, we have Tungsten, what's that called, like Mirac Valley for example.

我还有另一个毛病，就是脑子里有时会记着某个东西的开发代号。

So I have that's another disease that I have, like thinking of sometimes what's locked in my head is like a dev name of something.

有时候用的是正式名称。

Sometimes it's the live name.

所以我有时得额外想想现在该用什么名字称呼它。

So it's I sometimes have to think a little bit extra of what I should call this now.

但没错。

But yep.

但你知道，即使是特别小的地图，这些东西也都会体现出来。

But, know, like, there's even really tiny maps where this stuff all kind of plays out too.

我忘了它的名字，但基本上是个团队死亡竞赛地图。

I forget the name of it, but basically a team deathmatch map.

它就只是

And it's just like

圣徒区。

Saints' Quarter.

一条小街道。

A tiny street.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道的？

You know?

这是一条街道。

It's a street.

就是一条街道，两旁的建筑里到处都是炸毁的残骸。

It's a it's just a street with a bunch of blown up stuff in the building.

真有趣。

So fun.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而且它仍然感觉像《战地》。

And it still feels like Battlefield.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这关乎强度，以及为玩家调整强度的变化。我明白，我们希望提供更多变化，希望在节奏上更加多样，确保我们所有地图的强度分布更加丰富。但我对目前推出的内容也很满意。

I think it's just about intensity and and varying up intensity for players, and I do get it, like there's a we want to offer more variation, we want to have more variation in terms of pacing, make sure that the intensity is more varied in the whole roster of the maps that we have, But I am I am pleased with the stuff that's out there as well.

我认为很多人也是这么想的。

I think a lot of people are.

是的。

Yeah.

你对你的《战地》粉丝和社区，或者开发者有什么想说的吗？

Any any parting words for your your Battlefield fans and community or developers?

有什么人想特别说点什么吗？

Anyone you wanna say anything to?

因为时间快到了，我们

Because we we we're up against time here and

好的，先生。

Yes, sir.

我们还有太多没聊到的内容。

There's so much so much we didn't talk about.

我的意思是，我们大概得再做一次这样的对话。

I mean, we probably have to do another one of these.

希望如此，也许我们真该这么做。

Hopefully, maybe we should.

抱歉，我跑题了，不是的。

I apologize, it's me going off on tangent No.

只是为了纪念之类的事情。

For memory and stuff.

但对我来说，如果任何接触过《战地》系列，尤其是玩过《战地6》的人正在听这段话，我想对你们所付出的一切表示感谢。

But it's a for me, it's like if anyone who has ever touched Battlefield, and especially if you've touched Battlefield six is listening to this, then thank you for everything that you put in.

非常感激每一位拿起铲子，和我们一起在这条战壕里挖过土的人。

Very very grateful to everyone who took a shovel and dug a little bit in this trench with us.

说到玩家，我认为我们的首发表现非常出色，但从首发过渡到持续运营总是会有些不稳。

When it comes to the players, I think we had an amazing launch, I think the transition from launch to live service is always a little bit shaky.

我们并不总是能每一份补丁都打出全垒打，但我们决心要把这件事做好，决心加入更多内容、更多令人兴奋的玩法。

I don't think we always hit like home runs on the type of stuff that we've with every patch that we're putting out there, but it is something that we are hell bent on getting right, hell bent on adding more things, more exciting things to do.

所以，作为玩家，我对接下来即将推出的内容感到非常兴奋，也希望大家看到这些内容时，能和我一样激动。

And so, I mean, as a player, I'm very excited about what we have coming down the bend and I'm hoping that people get as excited as I am when they see what we have coming.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我知道我是这样的。

I mean, I know I am.

我对此非常期待。

I'm really excited for it.

我觉得我会玩这款游戏很久很久。

I I feel like I'm gonna be playing this game for a long time.

不错。

Nice.

我也是。

Me too.

能见到你真是太好了，能聊这么多内容真是太棒了。

So it was really great to meet you, really great to talk about all this stuff.

这一集一定会很精彩，因为我们甚至谈到了骰子的诞生历史。

I'm this episode is gonna be awesome because we even got a micro history of of the creation of dice.

我们还聊了《镜之边缘》，大家都喜欢这个游戏。

We got to talk about Mirror's Edge, which everybody loves.

当然，就像你在《战地6》中作为玩家能做的事情一样，今天我们只是浅尝辄止地讨论了这些内容，但非常希望未来能再次邀请你回来，继续深入探讨。

And, of course, you know, much like what what you can do as a player in Battlefield six, we only really scratched the surface of of talking about it today, but love to have you back on in the future and talk about it again.

听起来很棒。

Sounds great.

非常感谢你，亚当。

Thank you so much, Adam.

感谢您收看《游戏开发者笔记》。

Thank you for joining us for the Game Maker's Notebook.

如需了解互动艺术与科学学院、我们的播客及其他项目的更多信息，请访问 www.interactive.org。

For more information on the Academy of Interactive Arts and Sciences, our podcasts, and our other initiatives, please visit www.interactive.org.