科里·戴维斯（《特殊行动：一线生机》）与罗宾·芬克（九寸钉乐队）谈《Sleep Awake》中的迷幻恐怖元素

哇哦。

Woah.

我特别喜欢这种关于梦境、睡眠以及你提到的两者之间那片空间的超现实探索，你的游戏在这方面做得太棒了，因为我在现实生活中根本无法体验到这些。

And and what I love about these kind of surrealist explorations about dreams and sleep and the that that space in between that you talk about that was done so well in your game is that I don't get to experience those in my real life.

能在《Sleep Awake》中体验到这些，真是太酷了。

It was it was so cool to be able to experience that in SLEEP AWAKE.

这真的非常，非常有趣，而且

It was really, really I interesting and

我觉得，亚当，你之前提到‘调频’的时候，我想特别强调一下，你用这种方式表达很有趣。

think, Adam, it it's you said something that I want to shine a light on earlier when you said you tuned to the frequencies, and it's interesting that you said that that way.

在我们讨论的许多内容的最初阶段，我们花了相当多的时间探讨这些。

We had spent quite a bit of time at the genesis of a lot quite a bit of what we were talking about.

我们谈论了不可见世界的现实性，讨论了振动频率的重要性，以及它如何体现在物质世界中，特别是它如何影响我们对现实的认知。

We were talking about the reality of an unseen world and we were talking about the significance of vibrational frequency and how that shows up in the material world specifically, you know, as it influences a concept of our reality.

我们探讨了生物节律、生物节律反馈，检测这些脉冲——实际上是不同强度、不同频率的振动，研究德尔塔波这类现象，作为能引发物理世界体验的力量。

We were playing with ideas of biorhythms, biorhythmic feedback, detecting these kind of pulses, really vibrations of different magnitudes, different frequencies, playing with delta waves and these types of issues as forces that would bring about an experience in the physical world.

我们在游戏空间中，明确地、最终地在现实世界中的‘压碎’——地球上最后已知的城市——与另一个超现实的象征性领域‘深海’之间来回穿梭。

And we were playing in the game space, decidedly, eventually, between the physical space of the Crush, the last known city on Earth, and this otherworldly symbolic realm referred to as the Fathom.

这种在不同环境或游戏空间中穿梭的行为，持续推动着叙事、主角体验以及玩家体验。

That kind of navigating in and out of these environments or, you know, play spaces really continue to drive the narrative and the protagonist experience and so and so the player experience.

是的。

Yeah.

这些元素确实以一种非常有意义且有趣的方式融入了游戏的互动体验中，我非常喜欢。

That stuff definitely found its way into the interactive experience of the game in a really meaningful and interesting way that I really liked.

当我们谈论梦境的平行现实时，第三个组成部分是过场动画，也就是全动态视频。

The third component that when when we talk about, you know, that parallel reality of dreams is the the the FMV, the the transitional films, the the full motion video.

在游戏中，这些全动态视频片段不仅仅是过渡，它们在我看来，某种意义上像是梦境的负片。

In in the game, not not only as transitions, but these FMV sequences to me are, like, a negative imprint of a dream in a in a weird way.

它们与故事、角色和环境紧密呼应。

They they feel like they're tandem to the story and the characters and the environments.

它们并非对现实的一一重现或直接复制，但就像梦境一样，它们显然沿着相似的轨迹展开。

They're they're not a one to one reenactment or a direct carbon copy, but like dreams, they're certainly are on a similar trajectory.

是的。

Yeah.

我真的很喜欢游戏中的这个元素，原因有几个。

I I I really loved that element of the game for a couple reasons.

第一，它让《SLEEP AWAKE》这款游戏仿佛回到了过去，感觉像是一个非常酷的致敬。

Number one, it just kind of it took SLEEP AWAKE as as a game back in time a little bit that felt like, you know, a really a really cool nod.

在我职业生涯的早期，我参与过一部《X档案》的FMV游戏。

Way back in the beginning of my career, I worked on this X Files FMV game.

哦，

Oh,

对。

yeah.

我觉得那些东西太酷了。

And I I just like, that stuff was so cool.

而且，我在体验上觉得它们与我熟悉的九寸钉乐队的视觉风格非常相似。

Also, there I I found those experientially parallel to I'm very familiar with that kind of stuff from, you know, maybe the visual aspect of of what goes on with Nine Inch Nails.

这种呈现方式和叙事方式让我非常感兴趣。

That kind of presentation and storytelling is really interesting to me.

我不希望你告诉我这个问题的答案。

I don't want you to tell me the answer to this.

也许根本就没有答案。

Maybe there's no answer.

但我完全被那个戴着面罩的女人以及她身上流动的蓝色光效所吸引，这些元素对故事意味着什么。

But I was just completely entranced by the woman with the the face mask and the and all the cool, like, blue stuff going through and what that meant to the story.

这真的很有趣，因为我在游戏早期就注意到了这一点，当时我根本没想到游戏会以这三种截然不同的世界呈现方式转变。

And it's really interesting because I started seeing that early on in the game, and I was not expecting the game to shift in these three very kind of separate world presentations.

当我们进入游戏的最后三分之一时，它开始变得……是的。

And then when we got when we get to the the last third of the game, it starts Yeah.

即使它没有明确地连接和解释清楚，但它依然说得通。

Even if it's not overtly connecting and making sense, it's making sense.

我非常欣赏这一点。

And I really appreciated that.

而且，你们将实拍影像和三维画面巧妙地融合在一起，感觉既非常专业，又像是你们真的在沙漠里胡乱捣鼓出来的。

And there was a great mix of mixing FMV and three d in a way that was it just felt really, like, really pro, but also really, like, you know, like you guys were out in the desert making shit.

你知道的？

You know?

是的。

Yeah.

那种感觉真的很酷。

And it just felt really cool like that.

我希望你们中的某一位——不管是哪一位——能简单说说，你们已经做了这么多关于这款游戏的访谈，当然，你们亲手打造了它，这是你们的创意愿景。

I I want one of you guys, could be either one of you guys, just to give you've done enough interviews about the game, and obviously, you've made the game and it's your creative vision.

但对那些只是听这段对话、还没去购买并玩过这款游戏的人来说呢？

But, like, someone who is just listening to this and hasn't hasn't gone out and picked this up yet and played it.

你会怎么向他们推荐这款游戏？

What what is the pitch for this game?

《睡眠与觉醒》是一场感官的幻觉之旅。

Well, SLEEP AWAKE is a hallucinogenic trip of the senses.

故事发生在未来，地球上最后一座城市中，人类最后的幸存者被迫聚集于此。

It's one that takes place in the future in a world in the last known city on Earth where the the last remnants of humanity have been forced together.

你可以想象，当地球上所有已知的幸存者都被迫困在这座名为‘压碎城’的城市里时，那会是多么可怕的情景。

If you can imagine how horrifying that would be in terms of every single last person that's known to be living on Earth forced into this city called the Crush.

如果这还不够恐怖，当他们抵达后，一种力量开始在他们体内滋生，任何敢于入睡的人都会永远消失。

And if if that's not terrifying enough, once they arrive, an element begins to rise up within them that causes anyone who dares to fall asleep to disappear forever.

他们实际上在睡梦中被这种力量带走，这种力量后来被称为‘寂静’。

And they're actually taken in their in their sleep by this element that that's that becomes known as the hush.

由于人们彼此过于接近，加上意识形态的崩塌，人类社会开始迅速崩溃，人们试图弄清楚为何有人会在睡梦中消失。

So society spirals downward in this moment because of their proximity to one another and then kind of a shattering of ideologies as as humanity tries to figure out why people are disappearing in their sleep.

我们可以扮演一位名叫卡查的女性，她在这座地球上最后的城市——压碎城中长大。

We have the chance to play as a woman named Catcha who grew up in this last city on Earth in the crush.

我们通过她的眼睛看世界，她的所作所为与压碎城中逐渐崩溃的社会截然不同。

We see through her eyes, she does things quite a bit differently than the kind of spiraling society that surrounds her in the crush.

压碎城已陷入极端意识形态，人们尝试各种极端甚至致命的方法来保持清醒，并分裂成了多个死亡教派。

Crush has has fallen into extreme ideology and tried to find ways to stay awake that are extremely dangerous, even, deadly, and they've, splintered into death cults.

但卡查通过一种迷幻与科学相结合的方式应对这一问题，并追随她父亲的脚步，她父亲是一位睡眠科学家。

But Katcha approaches this through a blend of psychedelic and scientific means, and she follows in the path of her father, who was a sleep scientist.

随着卡查被迫深入探索胡什之谜，你开始一层层揭开真相。

Really, you start to peel up layer by layer as Katcha is forced to go deeper into this mystery of the hush.

你提到的那些FMV视频，在我看来，几乎就像我们在见证她在这段旅程中所经历的梦境，这段旅程充满了噩梦，同时也夹杂着令人惊喜的绚丽与美好时刻。

Those FMV videos you're talking about, to me, are almost like we're we're seeing her dreams that she's experiencing through this journey that she's on as well, which is one that's just kind of full of nightmares and and also blissful moments where we're surprised with vibrancy and beauty as well.

我的意思是，这很好地解释了这种体验。

I mean, that's a great explanation of of the experience.

在我的研究中，以及当然，了解你们之后，我对电子游戏这一艺术形式中以音频为先的创作理念完全支持，任何以不同方式使用这一媒介的做法都让我倍感欢迎，这一点在屏幕上也得到了充分体现。

In my research and, obviously, knowing you guys, this idea of audio first creativity in the art form of of video games, I'm obviously totally supportive of that, and doing doing anything in this medium differently is always a welcome thing to me, and it it it definitely translated to to the screen.

你们能谈谈你们是如何以音频为先来制作游戏的吗？

So can you guys talk about, like, how you approached audio first game creation?

因为我觉得这太有趣了，你们真的太棒了。

Because I just think that's so interesting and so you guys.

科里和我早期的一次会面，我们去了约书亚树，断开了网络连接。

One of the early sessions Cory and I had, we went off grid in Joshua Tree.

我们装了两辆面包车，科里的大众巴士和另一辆塞满太多设备的面包车。

We packed two vans, Cory's VW bus and another van full of way too much gear.

我们一起在这栋房子内外布置了几个星期。

Set it up all in and around this house together for a couple of weeks.

我们带着一些想法、对话和一些音乐模板出发，但主要还是期待在那里发生某种奇妙的事情。

We went with seeds of ideas, conversations, some music templates, but mostly we went with an expectation of something magical happening out there.

我们去那里是为了倾听，让自己变得更加开放，比我在家、在城市里或在其他工作室时更开放。

We went out there to listen and to become open more open than I can be when I'm here at home or even in the city or in some other studio.

我们制造了巨大的噪音，也制造了很多细微的声响，并且把一切都录了下来。

We made a big noise, and we made a lot of small noises and we we we recorded everything.

这非常有趣。

It was it was fun.

这是一次真正的探索。

It was real exploration.

这是一次真正的放手。

It was a real let go.

我觉得我和科里因为彼此支持而更加亲近，我们一起面对这一切，包括那些不美好的部分，只是观察和倾听，让那段时光自然呈现。对我来说，能够创造这样一个空间，保持专注并不断录音，真的实现了我的梦想。

I feel like Cory and I became closer just having one another's back, us together to kind of move through that with all the ugly stuff too, you know, and just like watch and listen as as that time presented itself, and it really was a dream come true for me to to allow that space to just show up and be present and record, record, record.

你知道，我们在那里的时候，整天都围绕着太阳和月亮。

You know, and while we were there, we, you know, we were just around the sun and moon.

我们讨论了迄今为止关于游戏、角色和世界的想法，以及它可能走向何方，将我们引向何处。

We were talking about the ideas thus far about the game and about the characters and about the world and where it could go and where it was leading us.

那是一次深刻的体验。

That was a profound experience.

后来我们回到家，花了数月乃至数年的时间翻查那些文件，寻找那些偶然的惊喜。

Now then we came home and I was you know, we were climbing through those folders for months and years mining for happy accidents.

它们确实存在，但并不总是容易被发现。

And they were there to be found, but they were they weren't always easy to find.

这不仅为音乐定下了基调，因为我们有文件、有音频可以聆听，更重要的是，我们参与其中的沉浸式声音体验，帮助我们巩固了之前讨论的一些基础元素，并催生了《New》和其他作品。

That set a tone, not only musically because we had files or we had audio to hear, but I think the pursuit or the immersive experience of the sound that we were participating in led us to solidify some of the foundational elements that we were discussing and gave birth to New and others.

在第一次沙漠实验中，有没有什么直接演变成了《SLEEP AWAKE》里的内容？

Was there anything in that first desert session experiment that directly turned into something in SLEEP AWAKE?

是的。

Yes.

相当多。

Quite a bit.

可以辨认。

Identifiable.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，很多都是跟着节拍器来的，但不是全部。

You know, a lot of it was to click track, not all of it.

是的。

Yeah.

我们很多都是在原有基础上添加的，你知道，我们会基于当时麦克风录下的内容，然后我，你知道，可能一年、两年甚至更久之后，再从中筛选出一些片段、乐器，我尽量做了笔记，我知道自己迟早要重新整理这些海量的会话文件。

A lot of it we add, you know, we would build upon whatever the mics were picking up from that time, and then I, you know, kinda add, you know, maybe a year or two or more later, culling for moments, instrumentation, you know, I made notes best I could, you know, knew I was gonna have to revisit all these gigabytes of, you know, sessions.

是的，其中一些被用到了游戏引擎里，也就是游戏中的音乐，但还有很多没用上，我的意思是，大部分都没用，不过确实有一部分我们反复打磨过，有时灵感来自那些时刻，或者来自其他录音环节，我有时会特别有灵感，去追求一些我喜欢的音乐，试着把它完成，但第二天醒来还是觉得不错，可一旦放进游戏世界里，却并不总是奏效，你知道的。

Yeah, some of it, some of it is made it into the, you know, is in the engine, is in the game, and then some of it isn't, know, mean, course, a lot of it isn't, but I mean, some of it was, we would iterate with some, and and and sometimes, you know, whether it was from that from from those moments or or any of the other recording sessions, Sometimes I'd get really inspired and be pursuing some music that I like and try to see it to some end and wake up the next day, still like the music, but then setting it inside the game, inside the the world, and it didn't always work, you know.

是的。

Yeah.

这确实很难。

It's that's a tough So

在制作过程中，我们反复权衡，要不要舍弃一些好音乐，因为它们会打断我们的沉浸式体验，你知道的。

there was a lot of iteration about, you know, letting good music go, because it would it would take me out it take us out of the immersive experience, you know.

有时候，如果某段音乐的和弦进行太强烈，或者节奏、拍子、甚至某个转折出现得不是时候。

Sometimes if something had too strong a chord progression or or even a cadence or or tempo, time signature, or some kind of turnaround at the wrong time.

会让人感觉：她穿的是什么？

It'd feel like, what is she wearing?

耳机？

Headphones?

现在呢，你知道，音乐太偏向歌曲化了。

And now we're you know, it's it's just too song oriented.

所以，要绕过这个问题对我来说是个巨大的挑战。

So that was a big challenge for me to get kind of around that.

实际上，根据我玩和听的经验，我发现使用主题性片段是很正常的做法。

I actually think in my experience playing and listening, I've I found I found the use of thematic kind of pieces, which is a normal thing.

但我要再次指出，这些片段总是以某种方式让我感到意外。

But once again, I would point out that they were always surprising to me in a way.

比如，我对自己的预期有一定的想法。

Like, I had an expectation of what I thought.

罗宾这次会产出什么？

What's Robin gonna churn out here?

它到底会是什么样子？

Like, what what's what's it gonna be?

我总是会惊叹，哇。

And I was I was always like, wow.

这完全不是我预料到的。

That's not what I expected at all.

就像，音乐里有太多美妙、丰富的合成器音色，我超爱，但我根本没料到会这样。

Like, there are so many, like, beautiful, juicy synths in the music that I've just loved, but I was not expecting that.

所以我觉得，这实际上为这种媒介带来了一种全新的体验。

So I think that actually added to, like, this is a really new type of experience in this medium.

而且即使当你把节奏提升起来的时候，所以——

And even when you did ratchet it up, So

说实话，我也很惊讶。

was surprised too, you know, to be honest.

我后来经历了很多，你知道，从沙漠回来之后，我们一直在推进，有相当紧张的制作计划、冲刺周期，还有各个部门努力协同支持开发。

I went into a lot of you know, after we came back from the desert and, you know, we're we're we're working towards you know, we've got quite a production schedule and sprints and all the, you know, all that and all the different departments trying to come together and support the development.

顺便问一下，对你来说那是什么感觉？

What was that like for you, by the way?

就像，突然被扔进那样的环境里，对你来说是什么感受？

Like, being thrust into that, what was that like for you?

对我来说压力很大，每一天都是全新的，我好长一段时间都在拼命挣扎着不沉下去。

Well, it was a lot for me, and every day was brand new, and I was treading water for a long mile there.

但这很令人兴奋。

But it was exciting.

一切都同时发生了。

It was kind of all at once.

在创作这些东西时，很难打下基础。

There was there was it's hard to establish foundation when creating these.

冲刺的目的是为了提升游戏体验，但说实话，一次又一次地，每个部门似乎都需要其他部门先完成，我们才能进入开发的下一阶段。

The sprints are meant to culminate in, you know, furthering the experience of gameplay, but there's, you know, if it it did feel like, boy, time and again, it's like every department is kind of is is is needing the other to finalize before we can move to the next phase of development.

确实有一些两难的时刻，你知道的。

If there there was some catch 22 kind of moments, you know.

你知道，我们到了一个阶段，前期制作已经相当充分了。

You know, we got to a place where, you know, there was quite a bit of pre production.

有很多概念设计，你知道的。

There was quite a lot of, you know, concept.

我们当时有个什么来着？

We had a what was that?

那种艺术指南，我们当时管那个东西叫什么来着？

The kind of art bible, what were we calling that that thing?

我们的世界，是的。

Our world Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我在片尾字幕里注意到，你们和我在布鲁克林的朋友们在Weta合作过，哦，对。

Noticed I noticed in the credits, you guys worked with my friends at at Weta, Brooklyn, and Oh, yeah.

那些家伙。

Those cats.

对。

Yeah.

所以我们知道，确实探索了不少丰富的概念，无论是角色设计、环境设计还是玩法，但这些内容也是一边推进一边创作的，很多时候我们会调整方向，或者不得不做出删减，原因多种多样，这确实让人不安。

So we knew we really knew there were there were some some rich concept explored, whether it be character development, or environmental development or gameplay, but it was also it was also being, you know, kinda created as we're moving through it You know, where there was many times where we would pivot and or many times where we'd have to make cuts, multiple reasons, and so that could get, you know, that's unnerving.

是的。

Yeah.

知道吗，

Know,

建造起来很难，我的意思是，有太多方式可以形容它，但简直就像弹珠机。

it's It's it's hard to build it's like, I mean, there's so many ways to describe it, but, like, it's almost like pinball.

你可以任意想象一切。

It's like, you can dream everything up.

你可以去沙漠里迷失自己，然后回来，进入前期制作、概念设计，所有这些。

You can go out in the desert, get lost, come in, preproduction, concept, all that.

而在这整个过程中，你只是不断地拉回弹珠机的拉杆。

And it that whole time, you're just you're you're pulling that lever back.

是的。

Yeah.

然后，当真正开始的时候，你就松手了。

And then and then when it's time to start it, you let it go.

球就会飞出去，你知道的，落在板子上，却从不会落在你希望它落的地方。

And the ball goes out, you know, on the board, and it never comes and lands where you want it to.

但当然了。

But Absolutely.

你知道，那些意外的惊喜，正是游戏得以诞生的方式。

You know, those happy accidents, that's how, you know, that's how games get made.

而且我，你知道吗？

And I you know?

是的。

Yeah.

我一直觉得，制作唱片和制作游戏在某些方面是相似的。

I've always thought that making records and making games are similar in ways.

制作游戏可能涉及更多的人，你知道。

This thing may be, you know, more people involved in in making a game.

我的意思是，这取决于唱片的类型。

I mean, I guess it depends on the record.

但多年来，我发现两者之间有很多相似之处。

But there's a lot of similarity that I've found over the years in that myself.

我想说的是，音乐方面的迭代工作和其他方面一样持续进行着。

One thing I I'd say is that the the iterative work on the music continued just like everything else.

但正是因为我们从那里开始，带着那种推动力，让我们走上了原本不会选择的另一条路。

But just the fact that we started there, like, with that with that push, it put us into a different direction than we would have gone otherwise.

它帮助了那些没有参加最初会议、新加入我们团队的人，当我们按下弹珠机按钮的那一刻，大家的心都朝着同一个方向、同一个目标跳动。

And it helped people that weren't at the session that were new on our team as we kind of hit that moment where we where we hit the button on the pinball machine, it set our hearts in the same direction, in the same place.

因此，‘Crush’和‘Fathom’这两个概念都开始从我们当时所做的工作、以及Robin在团队扩充后进一步深化的内容中，逐渐获得了一致的基调和生命力。

And so the this this location of the crush started and the fathom, both of them, started to kinda live and breathe tonally through what we had done there and through what Robin had furthered as we brought people onto the team.

对我来说，这是一种非常令人兴奋的方式来开发一个独特的概念。

And it was it's it's to me, it's it's a a really exciting way to develop a a unique concept.

你最终一定会到达一个意想不到的地方，而且很可能是一个更接近我们梦想的地方——它甚至能让我们开发者自己去思考所创造事物的象征意义之类的东西。

And you're definitely gonna you're gonna end up someplace you didn't expect and probably someplace that is a lot more like our dreams that, you know, invites even us as developers to consider the the symbolic nature of what we've created and things like that.

但我们最初是从声音入手的，有些声音只是破碎的玻璃、生锈的金属，还有我们在废品场里敲打的各种东西。

But the the way that we started with the sound of it and some some of the sound is just broken glass and rusted metal and, you know, stuff that we were banging on in a junkyard even.

但这种协作方式，只是让我们自然而然地踏上了一条特定的道路。

But that collaboration, it just kinda set us off onto a certain path.

我知道，如果我们一开始更专注于某种解谜机制或其他类似的东西，我们最终会走上一条完全不同的道路。

And I know we would have ended up in a completely different direction if we would have been focused more heavily at the start on some sort of puzzle mechanic or something like that or anything.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

这跟任何其他东西都不一样。

It's it's it's different than anything else.

是的。

Yeah.

它跟我之前做过的优秀机制原型完全不同。

It's much different than I've I've got a great mechanic prototype.

让我们围绕这个来开发一款游戏。

Let's build a game around this.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我想这有点像我一开始说的。

I think that's kinda what I was saying at the beginning.

就像，你们所做的一切似乎都偏离了常规流程，但却行得通。

Like, the kind of, like, it seems like everything you guys have done has been outside of of the normal process, and and it works.

它行得通。

It works.

太棒了。

It's great.

对我来说，这个项目和《Eyes Out》最令人兴奋的一点就是罗宾的视角。

For me, that's been that's been one of the most exciting things about the project and about Eyes Out in general is, like, Robin's perspective.

而且罗宾，是的。

And the fact that Robin yeah.

他是个音乐人，但如他所说，他也是一个讲故事的人。

He's a musician, but also, as he mentioned, he's a storyteller.

他是一位视觉艺术家。

He's a visual artist.

这让我也能退后一步，不再只是沿用我过去的做法，而是对游戏有了全新的视角。

And it it allowed me as well to kinda take a step back and not just do things in the way that I had done them previously, but to have this fresh perspective on on games.

如今游戏正在飞速发展，但在我看来，仍然需要进行大量进化。

As games are evolving like crazy right now, and there's still, in my opinion, a lot lot of evolution that needs to take place.

作为开发工作室和开发者，我们还有很多步骤需要完成。

There's a lot of steps that we still need to take as development studios and as developers.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

我们还远没有走出困境。

We still haven't crawled out of the water yet.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

是的。

And Yeah.

所以罗宾促使我去这么做，去重新审视许多常规的方法论，并用我们确立的这种情感基调和内心去重新思考它们。

So Robin kinda pushed me to do that and to and to reconsider a lot of the kind of standard methodologies and to reconsider them with my heart and with this tone that we had set.

整个项目过程中，这都是一段非常愉快的经历。

And so that was a blast throughout the project.

你之前提到过团队。

So you had talked about the team earlier.

我可以想象，招聘人员来这家工作室工作，与建立传统游戏开发工作室相比，是完全不同的事情。

I can imagine hiring people to work at this studio is a much different undertaking than, you know, traditional building game dev studio.

我的意思是，了解你们和你们从一开始就追求的目标，这可不是简单地筛选一百份简历，然后挑出最好的人来应聘职位。

I mean, just knowing you guys and and your you know, what you're going for from the beginning, that's not a let's sift through a 100 resumes and and find the best to ask for the seat.

对吧？

Right?

你必须招募那些理解如何将沙漠的体验转化为游戏的人，而不是

It's you have to bring people in who understand how it translates from from the desert into the game, and not

反过来。

the other way around.

我们能在Eyes Out与每一位同事共事，真是非常幸运。

We're we're so fortunate to be working with every one of us at at Eyes Out.

我们当时是一个相对较小的团队，开发人员不多。

We were relatively small crew, small dev team.

每个人都对这个项目充满热情。

Everyone was super passionate about the project.

我们每个人都身兼数职。

We we wore a lot of hats.

每个团队成员都提出了各种想法，无论他们来自哪个部门或具备何种专业专长。

There were ideas that came from each of us, you know, everyone on the team, whether they were from, you know, whichever kind of department or, you know, kind of specialty in it.

每个人都主动提出关于场景、角色或叙事的想法，好点子来自方方面面，这些确实都非常真实。

Everyone was, you know, would come forward with ideas about environments or character or, you know, narrative ideas, and good ideas came from everywhere, you know, all that kind of stuff is was definitely very real.

所以

And So

你找到了你们最初所寻找的那种协作集体，也就是我们之前谈到的那种。

you found your collaborative collective that you were looking for or, you know, tuning into in the beginning we were talking about.

太棒了。

That's awesome.

我感兴趣的一点是，我想把从沙漠中诞生的某个草图，与你们团队，再到最终游戏的过程串联起来。

So one thing I'm interested in is I I I really wanna try to connect the dots from, you know, one of the sketches that originated in the desert to your team and then going through that into the game.

在Eyes Out，这个过程是怎么实现的呢？

Like, how does that work at Eyes Out?

因为这种方式在游戏行业里非常非传统，独特而有趣。

Because that is a very nontraditional, totally unique and interesting way to build stuff in the games business.

嗯，这个Josh Patrice的片段，我们是有意搞得很混乱的。

Well, this Josh Patrice episode, we very intentionally made a mess, you know.

当时情况相当疯狂，当我们回来后，更具体地通过游戏玩法和引擎体验来重新梳理时，这要求我们对音频、音乐提供支持——不一定是音乐本身，而是要设计这个世界的声音：什么时候该有音乐？什么时候该恰到好处地铺陈音乐？什么时候该控制整体的节奏？

I mean, it was it was kinda it was wild, and when we got back and reiterating now more specifically through gameplay and in, you know, more of a engine experience, boy, that demanded some, you know, support for, you know, audio support, music support, not always music necessarily, but, you know, the design of what does the world sound like, you know, when should there be music, when do we lay, you know, enough music for a moment, you know, when do we lay out, you know, what the the pacing of it all, you know.

我们回来后，当我逐个翻阅那些录音文件夹时，并不能总能找到我们需要的所有素材，当然，仍有许多内容需要创作，以支撑游戏体验和角色塑造，以及各个不同环境中的氛围营造。

In immediacy, after we had returned and I was kinda climbing through all that, all those folders of recordings, I wouldn't always find everything we need, of course, you know, and there there was there was still quite a bit to be created to support or to drive the gameplay experience and the character development in all the different environments and and such.

但在沙漠里那场自由发挥之后，我回到家就变得非常有条理。

But there was I so I did I did, you know, after we made that free for all in the desert, I did get really square when I got home.

我制定了一份音频设计文档，里面列出了每个角色——主角、反派、敌人——的乐器配置框架，我试图设定界限，因为这样更容易管理。

I had created what a audio design document that was would would lay out, you know, here's a self imposed kind of wireframe of instrumentation for each of the characters, protagonists, antagonists, enemies, and I I tried to create boundaries because it's a lot more manageable.

你指的是角色的音频原型吗？

You're talking about, like, audio archetypes for characters.

这真是一个非常有趣的概念。

That's that's just, like, a really interesting concept.

比如，

Like,

哇。

wow.

是的，没错。

Well, yeah.

而且我现在应该说，我制作了这些框架、表格、规则或线索，用来激发灵感，这样当我们进入一个新的两周冲刺周期，面对要完成的目标时，就能有据可依，知道需要什么样的音频和音乐。

And I I, you know, I had made now now I should I should go on to say I made all these wireframes or these kind of sheets or these these kind of rules or or ledger lines to inspire, you know, so I had something to turn to when we enter a new two week sprint and we've got whatever it is we're we're we're working to achieve at the end of this, and we need audio for it and probably music.

我有一张某种地图，一直遵循它，这在相当长的一段时间里都非常有用。

I had some kind of map, and I would stick to that, and it was very it was really useful for a good long while.

后来，我们还在继续做这个项目，我会发现自己有时会从别处获得灵感，这些灵感可能不符合我设定的框架，或者超出了我为某种场景所承诺使用的乐器范围。

And then, you know, we were still working on the thing, and and I would become you know, I would kind of allow I would witness or, you know, recognize that sometimes I get inspired elsewhere, and it wouldn't maybe fit inside the grid, or, you know, maybe it was just outside the instrumentation that I sworn to use for such a scenario or something.

所以，我们是有规则的。

And so there were rules.

有时候我们会打破规则，但拥有一个明确的目标方向很有帮助，即使我们得绕点路才能到达那里。

Sometimes we broke the rules, but it it it was good to have, you know, a flag in the distance that we were headed toward, even if we had to kinda zigzag to get there.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得我们团队的一个有趣之处在于，罗宾提到我们每个人都身兼数职。

And I I think one of the interesting things about our team, Robin mentioned that we we wear a lot of hats.

尽管我们是个很小的团队，但可能我们拥有开发团队中最高比例的音乐人，这相当有趣。

Like, even though we're a really small group, we probably had you know, we found probably the highest percentage of musicians ever on a development team, is which is pretty interesting.

这完全是自然发生的，但我认为音乐家们看待事物的方式是这样的。

And that just kind of happened naturally, but I think musicians approach things.

我的意思是，每个音乐人都不一样，但我认为他们有着共同的语言。

I mean, every musician's different, but I think they have a a shared language.

我们很多人能够达成共识。

And a lot of us were able to see eye to eye.

我认为团队里的每个人，即使自己不是音乐人，也对音乐非常热爱，对音乐有很强的见解和丰富的了解。

I think everyone on the team, if they weren't a musician themselves, they're really into music and so very opinionated about music, very informed about music.

我们的艺术总监和副制作人甚至已经做了三十年的广播节目，他们当DJ，节目叫‘莫洛托夫鸡尾酒时刻’。

Our art director even and our associate producer have had a radio show for thirty years where they they DJ called the Molotov cocktail hour.

播放的都是些非常有趣、风格多样的音乐，你以前从来都没听过。

And just really interesting, eclectic stuff you never heard before.

我们团队里有几个鼓手、吉他手，还有一些人是因为游戏才爱上音乐的，比如我们的首席设计师克莱·韦斯廷。

Several drummers on our team, guitarists, people that got into music because of games, like our our lead designer, Clay Westing.

他其实是因为《吉他英雄》才开始学吉他的，这还挺有趣的。

He started playing guitar because of Guitar Hero, actually, which is pretty funny.

他从年轻时起，就一直专注于音乐和游戏，并且在整个求学过程中都如此。

Really kind of, you know, focused entirely throughout his studies on music and games starting with that since he was young.

你知道，我们团队里经常有人来找我们，说这个部分让我想起了某段音乐。

You know, a lot of times, we'd have people on our team hit us up and say, oh, this this this section reminds me of this music.

他们的参考非常专业，我们可以很好地加以利用。

And they it'd be a really well informed reference that we could use to our advantage.

我觉得我们大家确实共享着这种音乐语言。

And we I felt like we spoke that shared language together.

音乐之所以重要，是因为我们团队真的在乎它，而不是仅仅在最后才随便加进去。

Music just the fact that we care about it on the team and it's not something that we just, like, apply at the end Yeah.

我们把它融入了游戏开发的核心部分。

That we kind of made part of the the meat of the development of the game.

对。

Yeah.

因为你知道，在传统游戏开发的几乎所有情况下，音频总是被最忽视的。

Because as you know, in almost all scenarios of traditional game development, the audio gets the worst end of the stick.

是的。

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

哦，我觉得我们最后还有一些时间可以处理音频。

Oh, I I think we have some time at the end to do the audio.

你知道的？

You know?

我们现在就加进去吧。

Let's add it now.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我经历过那种情况，但那不是我最喜欢的。

I've been through that and it's not my favorite.

就是这样。

It's Yeah.

直到你能感受到，我很难想象出最终体验的音调。

It always feels hollow until you can I have a hard time envisioning the final kind of tone of the experience?

不是，我不是故意的。

Not no pun intended.

但事情看起来可能很棒。

But things can look great.

直到我真正沉浸于音频体验中，我才真正有感觉。

And until I'm kind of immersed with the the audio experience, it doesn't kinda connect for me.

所以你的意思是，你雇了威尔？

So what you're saying is you hired Will?

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Definitely.

而且我们真的非常幸运。

And and we and we were really fortunate.

恰好有一群人正等着抓住机会，让这件事变得特别。

There happened to be a group kind of waiting to to strike and make this something special.

所以，是的。

And so Yeah.

我的意思是，我肯定有很多开发者，他们多年在续作的艰苦工作中磨炼后，非常渴望做这样的项目。

Mean, I'm sure there's no shortage of developers out there who are thirsty to do something like this after, you know, grinding it out, you know, in the trenches on on the sequels for for years.

整个团队的氛围和能量确实完全不同。

Definitely a definitely a different type of vibe energy throughout the team.

而且，我们还把一个重点放在了招募那些彼此尊重、拥有独特视角和背景的人身上，这样在开发过程中，他们能促使我们反思自己的先入之见。

There's also just, you know, we we made it a priority to really bring in people that respected one another as human beings and to look for people that had a unique perspective and that had a unique background that could, you know, cause us to have those moments where we question our own preconceptions as well throughout development.

在我们时间用完之前，我想谈一下互动性。

One thing I wanna touch on before before we run out of time here is interactivity.

我想聊聊这个话题，因为它贯穿了我们整个对话，而且从我了解到的游戏开发情况来看，这与游戏的主题紧密相连——那个介于睡眠与死亡之间的炼狱世界，以及那种没有规则的奇异状态。

This is something I wanna talk about because it's been a theme throughout our conversation here, and at least from what I picked up on about the development in the game, it's like this idea of and it ties into the theme of the game, of course, like, you know, this purgatory world between sleep and death and and the weird kind of no rules thing.

在游戏的最后阶段，突然来一句‘管他呢’，这非常罕见。

It's very uncommon to be in the final moments of a game, and it's like, fuck it.

新机制，一种我们之前从未向你提及过的新型敌人。

New mechanic, different type of enemy that we haven't told you about ever before.

我特别喜欢这一点，因为这真的让我……我不想剧透。

And I love that because it just, like, I I don't wanna spoil it.

如果你不想被剧透，现在就别听了。

If if you're if you don't want me to spoil it, stop listening now.

但我屏住呼吸，蹑手蹑脚，因为这些新敌人——整个段落简直太炸了，就是‘砰’的一下。

But, like, the I'm holding my breath, and I'm tiptoeing because these guys these new enemies, like, that whole sequence was just so it just, like, boom.

然后它就发生了。

And it happened.

它完美契合了整个部分，因为游戏这一段本身也是一个巨大惊喜。

And it fits so well because that whole portion of the game was also a huge surprise also.

我真的特别喜欢你们就这么大胆地做了。

And and I really love that you guys just went with it.

就是这样。

And it's like, yep.

我们现在要做这件事了。

We're we're doing this thing now.

这并不像传统做法那样，我们之前用四五个小时逐步引导你掌握这些机制，然后在最后阶段让你得意地全部运用起来。

It's not traditional in the way that we've given you the breadcrumbs of these mechanics to master through over the last four or five hours, and now it's time to triumphantly use them all in in the very end.

我就喜欢你们直接对这种做法说去他的。

Like, I just love that you just said fuck it to that.

就是一次全新的体验。

Just had a new experience.

这不像有些游戏那样，发生这种事就糟了。

And and it wasn't like some games, that sucks when that happens.

对吧？

Right?

因为直到那一刻之前你都被一步步引导着，然后突然间，哦，我们没这么做。

Because you have been bread crumbed up until that moment, and then it's like, oh, we didn't do this.

但事实上，它完美契合，你们就直接来了个‘砰’。

But, like, it actually fit so well that you guys were just like, boom.

新东西。

New stuff.

我们在做这件事。

We're doing it.

它让人感觉就像《Sleep Awake》里那种疯狂的、任何事都可能发生的感觉。

And it felt like that whole kinda crazy anything can happen that was happening in this in in SLEEP AWAKE.

整个床的段落，那些成群的床和视觉效果，天啊，这对我来说将是一个永远难忘的游戏时刻。

The whole sequence with the beds, that just maelstrom of beds and the visual of that, like, I will never that's, like, a very memorable forever type of game moment for me.

而你们在那里需要进行的互动其实非常简单，但却意义非凡。

And and the the interactivity that you had to do there was really it's so simple, but it it was meaningful.

然后你们直接从那里进入其他场景，比如那些疯狂的卡车追着你们跑，整个情节。

And then you you go directly out of that into these other things where, you know, this, like, psychotic truck tractors chasing you, like, the whole thing.

整个过程中，你们始终忠于自己和自己的愿景。

It it felt like you guys were just super true to yourselves and your vision the whole time.

在电子游戏中做到这一点非常困难。

And that's very hard to do in video games.

非常困难。

Very hard.

非常感谢。

Thanks a lot.

所以，对于你们的第一款游戏、第一个工作室，以及你们共同发现的这种独特创意合作，我由衷地致敬。

So, like, huge props for your first game and your first studio and and, you know, you're you're finding out this really unique creative collaboration together.

我真的非常喜欢它。

I just really loved it.

我非常喜欢

I I loved

非常感谢。

Thank you so much.

我非常喜欢那个。

I loved that.

正如我所说，我很喜欢看你们一起经历整个过程。

Like I said, I loved watching you guys go through the whole experience of it together.

我希望人们去体验一下，因为首先，你实际上可以一次性完成它，这在如今大家都很欣赏。

And I I hope people check this out because, first of all, you can actually complete it in a a single sitting, which everyone appreciates nowadays.

尽管不知怎么的，我花了七个小时才通关这个游戏。

Although somehow it took me seven hours to complete the game.

我不知道为什么。

I don't know why.

我一分钟都没觉得糟糕，所以非常棒。

I didn't I didn't have a minute of bad times, so it was great.

我想我拿到了白金奖杯。

And I think I platinumed it.

是的。

Yeah.

我拿到了白金奖杯。

I get platinumed.

但我真的希望人们能发现这款游戏，因为整个游戏本身真的让人耳目一新，你们所实现的一切，画面简直令人惊叹，既壮丽又荒诞又恐怖。

But I I really hope people find this game because it just it's it's such a breath of fresh air, the whole the actual game itself, everything that you guys kind of pulled off, the visuals are just, like, astoundingly glorious and absurd and scary and

哦，谢谢。

Oh, thanks.

你知道吗，开头的城市和那个平房。

You know, you know, the city in the beginning and the and the flat.

那个地方让我特别不舒服。

That that place made me so uncomfortable.

我只想赶紧离开。

I just wanted to get out.

当我终于逃出来时，从那里进入下一个美丽世界的感觉简直太棒了。

And when I finally got out, the release of that into this next beautiful world was just was just awesome.

所以，你知道的。

So, you know

天啊。

Oh, man.

嗯，谢谢你们

Well, thank you

非常感谢。

so much.

你们真棒。

You guys.

谢谢。

Thanks.

致敬。

Kudos.

真的非常感谢。

It's Thank you so much.

你们提到的那些时刻对我们来说至关重要。

A lot of those moments you're mentioning were really key for us.

有趣的是，你提到的一些事情，好像我们是在开发后期才加入的，但实际上我们一开始就很奇怪、很超现实。

There it's funny because you you mentioned some of the things that maybe it seems like we did towards the end of development, but we kinda started in a very strange and surreal place.

那些就是你提到的地下迷宫，里面有奇怪的角色彼此分离，并使用回声定位来寻找你。

And those were some of like the the catacombs that you were mentioning with the strange characters that split from one another and and use echolocation to find you.

你提到的在深海中的床架场景，这两个地方，我想很多团队看到后都会觉得：我们没必要保留这些。

That moment you mentioned with the bed frames there in the fathom, both of those were places that I think a lot of teams might have looked at those and gone, we don't need this.

我们可以删掉这些。

We could cut this.

或者你知道，这并不会破坏故事。

Or, you know, this it doesn't ruin the story.

即使你没有体验这些内容，故事依然成立。

The story still works if if you don't experience these things.

但对我们来说，这些是非常珍贵的时刻。

But for us, those were really precious moments.

还有那个收割机，你提到的那台拖拉机。

The the thresher as well, that that tractor you were talking about.

所以，我们一开始就是从一个充满极致创意的万花筒式构想出发的。

So, you know, starting out with kind of a a kaleidoscope of our kinda most extremes is where we where we went to begin with.

你提到的这些时刻对我们来说也同样特别，所以我们很高兴你注意到了这些细节。

Some of those moments that you're mentioning are are really special to us too, so we love that you you noticed those things.

不注意到这些才怪了。

It'd be insane not to notice them.

它们太酷了，真的是一种独一无二的体验，伙计们。

They're they're crazy cool and just a really unique experience, guys.

我真的完全没料到会发生这些事。

Like, I was just not expecting any of what happened.

我为你们感到由衷地开心。

And I'm so I'm so happy for you guys.

我为你们感到无比自豪。

I'm so proud of you guys.

哦，谢谢。

Oh, thanks.

谢谢。

Thank you.

谢谢你们今天愿意和我聊这个话题，你们讲了一些非常独特的故事，这绝对是我的最爱剧集之一，不仅仅是因为我爱你们。

Thanks for for letting me talk to you about this today, and you guys told some really, really unique stories on this, and this is definitely one of my favorite episodes I've I've done, not just because I love you guys.

这真的让我很感动。

But That means a lot.

我们也爱你们。

We love you too.

我们感谢上帝。

We Thank god.

我们能在这里真是太幸运了。

We're so lucky to be here.

非常感谢你们邀请我们。

Thank you so much for having us.

好了，各位。

Alright, guys.

记得去购买《SLEEP AWAKE》，并关注Eyes Out这个工作室。

Make sure you go pick up SLEEP AWAKE and follow Eyes Out as a studio.

我迫不及待想看看你们接下来会做什么。

I can't can't wait to see what you guys do next.

不过，我要等到

Although, I won't see it until

你们发布之后才能看到。

you release it.

所以我们

So We

也等不及了。

can't wait either.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

非常感谢你们在开发过程中以及现在一直给予我们的大力支持。

Thank you so much for for being such a big support to us throughout development and now.

是的。

Yeah.

这是我的荣幸，各位。

My pleasure, guys.

迫不及待想给你们看下一个作品。

Can't wait to show you what's next.

好的。

Alright.

谢谢。

Thanks.

非常感谢，兄弟。

Thanks so much, man.

祝你

Have a

晚安。

good night.

感谢您收看《游戏制作人笔记》。

Thank you for joining us for The Game Maker's Notebook.

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