Double Fine的李·佩蒂谈《守护者》与创意领导力

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

你知道的？

You know?

我记得我第一次创作的东西是一个核战争模拟器，那玩意儿简直太疯狂了。

I remember the first thing I I created was a nuclear war simulator, which was, like, super mind wars.

你知道的，我觉得可能是因为那时候电影《战争游戏》上映了，你输入任何指令，结果都会导致核战争。

It's like, you know, it was I think probably because the movie War Games is out, and you type in prompts, and anything you typed in would still result in nuclear war.

然后它就突然开始闪屏，倒计时开始了。

And then it just, like, went under us just flashing the screen and did a countdown.

是的，那可能不是班上大多数人当时在做的事。

Yeah, that was probably not what most people were doing in that class.

对。

Yeah.

他们这样做，像是在唤起某种回忆，让我想到那些父母不得不介入并解释背景的情况。

You they it's, like, bringing back sort of or it's making me think of those situations where the parents have to come in and explain the context.

不，不是这样的。

Like, no.

我从事核能行业。

I work in nuclear energy.

我儿子不是心理变态。

Like, it's my son is not a psychopath.

没关系的。

It's okay.

我爸爸的幽默感真的很不合时宜，这么说吧。

My my dad has a really inappropriate sense of humor, I'll say.

我记得他会把工作中带回来的核安全手册带回家。

Like, he would I remember he would bring home, like, the the nuclear safety manuals from his work.

是的。

Yeah.

他就像说，你看。

He's he's like, look.

这真的很有趣。

This is really funny.

比如，如果是核战争，或者发生辐射泄漏，你应该把人的尸体堵在门口，因为他们体内有很多水，可以吸收辐射。

Like, when it's if it's a nuclear war if something if there's a radiation leak, you're supposed to stuff people's bodies by the door because they have a lot of water and they can absorb it.

所以他给我讲了这些。

So he's telling me all this.

我当时才十岁。

I'm like, 10.

他问我，所以你是把它们装进袋子里吗？

And he's like, so you're putting it in the bag?

我当时说，是的。

You're like, yes.

对。

Yes.

很好。

Good.

太棒了。

That's great.

是的。

Yeah.

这相当不错。

That's pretty good.

是的。

Yeah.

实际上，可能在背景里差不多能看见，就在那边。

Actually, probably almost visible in the background there, kind of over here.

我有个核辐射 fallout 标志。

I have this nuclear fallout sign.

这是来自一个防空洞的真实 fallout 标志。

That's a real fallout sign from a bomb shelter.

哦，对。

Oh, right.

是的。

Yeah.

我能看见。

I can see that.

我祖父是个电工，他过去为州政府安装这些设备。

My grandfather was an electrician, and he used to wire up those things for the state.

当这些设施关闭时，他拿了一堆东西，因为他知道我对这类东西感兴趣。

And when they closed them down, he he grabbed a bunch of stuff when because he knew I was into that sort of stuff.

所以我得到了他的防空掩体。

So I got his fallout shelter.

他还给了我一些民防防毒面具之类的东西，觉得我会喜欢。

He's got me these, like, civil defense gas masks and stuff that he thought I'd enjoy.

我不确定这些是对我产生了深远影响，还是只是从小就让我对这些东西着迷。

I don't know if these things were formative influences or if they just had you dialed from a young age.

我们都喜欢这个。

We all love this.

是的。

Yeah.

很难说。

It's hard to say.

很难说。

It's hard to say.

对。

Yeah.

所以，我明白你最初的问题其实是：我学的是什么？

So I see your original question is kind of what did I study?

是的，我小时候身体很虚弱。

And yeah, I was really sickly as a child.

所以，我小时候根本不喜欢运动之类的东西，因为我对这个世界上的很多东西都过敏。

So I wasn't like, at a young age, really wasn't into sports and things like that, because I was allergic to the known world.

我对草、树木、花粉、霉菌、猫、狗、乳制品，所有东西都过敏。

I was allergic to grass, trees, pollen, mold, cats, dogs, dairy, everything.

我简直就是个泡泡男孩，是的。

I was just A regular bubble boy, yeah.

是的，我简直没有任何免疫力。

Yeah, I really just had no immune system.

直到我上高中时，我才开始多做一些体力活动。

It wasn't until I but by the time I started getting in high school, I started doing more physical things.

我以前玩BMX自行车，我爸爸让我接触了武术和摔跤，我一度做了这些事。

I used to race BMX, and my dad got me into martial arts and wrestling and all that sort of stuff I did for a while.

但我的内心其实只想回家创作，我想那就是我大部分时间在做的事。

But my heart really was like, I just wanted to come home and create, I think is what I did most of the time.

你知道的？

You know?

所以是写作或者艺术。

So writing or art.

我后来上了大学，主修绘画和素描。

And I eventually went to university, I went in and got a degree in painting and drawing.

我当时有点纠结该走哪条路。

I was sort of like kind of torn between which path to follow.

但那时候电脑还不算什么大事。

But computers weren't really a thing.

我选了一点计算机课程，只是为了满足数学学分要求，因为我发现它更有趣。

I took a little bit of computer stuff just to fulfill a math requirement because I found it more interesting.

但我从来没想过艺术、写作和计算机之间会有什么交集，当时也没想过我会对这方面感兴趣。

But I didn't really it never occurred to me that there was any intersection of art and writing and computers that I would be interested in doing at the time.

很有趣。

Interesting.

是的。

Yeah.

是因为你当时根本没怎么想过游戏是怎么整合在一起的，或者你没意识到有这样一些角色，而你并不认同它们吗？

Was it was that because you kinda just hadn't thought that much about, like, how the games are coming together or that there were people in these roles that you kind of didn't identify with?

我知道对我来说，问题在于我不觉得自己是程序员，那就是我所有的认知。

I know that was the thing for me is I didn't identify as a a program, and that's all I thought.

我只是觉得程序员才做游戏。

I just thought programmers made games.

我根本不知道还有作家这种角色，或者什么叫做游戏设计师。

I didn't understand that there even were writers or a thing called a game designer.

当我逐渐意识到这一点时，我记得看过一篇文章或视频，当时我就想，哦，原来如此。

And when I sort of realized that, I remember watching an reading an article or watching a video, I was like, oh, okay.

这个地方适合我。

This place can be for me.

你当初是不是也有类似的经历？你为什么没有过这种认知呢？

Was it a similar thing for you when you kinda like, what why did you why didn't you have that sort of realization?

是根本没想过吗？

Was it just never occurred to you?

是的。

Yeah.

你知道吗，部分原因是当时根本没有明确的分工，程序员、游戏设计师、制作人可能都是同一个人或两个人。

You know, I mean, part of it is at the time, there there really wasn't I mean, you know, the programmer, game designer, producer were probably one or two people at the time.

你知道的吧？

You know?

没错。

Exactly.

这个

The

大胆的我

bold I

我所知道的艺术工作，主要是为雅达利2600游戏盒做封面设计的人，我经常盯着那些封面看。

mean, the art that I was aware of was like the people who did the cover art for the Atari 2,600 boxes, which I'd stare at.

你知道的吧？

You know?

因为上大学的时候，我记得我有一台雅达利ST。

Because when I was in university, remember I had an Atari ST.

所以那之后不久，你知道的，是电脑。

And so it was a little bit later, you know, computer.

那时候我已经有一阵子没玩电子游戏了。

I had not been playing video games for a while at that point.

明白吗？

Know?

我从小接触的都是这些游戏机，比如雅达利2600、科莱科维森、Magnavox Odyssey、Intellivision、雅达利800、康懋达64、Amiga。

I kinda like, I grew up with all these, like, Atari 2,600, ColecoVision, Magnavox Odyssey Intellivision, Atari 800 Commodore 64 Amiga.

然后我去上大学了，那时候我根本没注意，当世嘉Genesis和任天堂在北美大火的时候，我根本没在玩。

And then I went to college, and I just sort of didn't know, I I was not playing when the Genesis and Nintendo became big in America.

我只是后来才注意到。

I just put it on my radar.

那根本不是我的经历。

It wasn't part of my experience.

所以我想起的那件事，我不知道，这么说有点绕弯子。

And so the thing that I remember, I don't know, this is a roundabout way of saying it.

我记得可以走进一家电脑商店。

I remember being able to go into a computer store.

我这么说有点奇怪，但我开玩笑地说，任天堂毁了游戏产业。

I was saying, this is sort of a weird way of saying, like, I jokingly say Nintendo ruined the game industry.

我的意思是，在我小时候，在大崩溃发生之前——那可不是任天堂的错——游戏根本不是针对儿童的。

And what I mean by that is like when I was a kid, before the big video game crash, which was, you know, not Nintendo's fault, games were not targeted at children at all.

有些是。

Like, some were.

但你走进电脑商店，会看到各种各样稀奇古怪的电脑游戏。

But you'd go into a computer store, and the most diverse array of strange computer games is available.

对吧？

Right?

会有游戏讲普鲁士和罗马战争之类的东西。

There'd be a game on, like, the Prussian Roman war or whatever.

你知道的？

You know?

那里还会有关于海洋甲壳类动物的游戏。

There there would be a game on sea crustaceans.

会有一些关于各种稀奇古怪主题的游戏。

There'd be a game on like, just all sorts of strange stuff.

会有成人游戏。

There'd be adult games.

这些游戏都摆在电脑店里，有时装在自封袋里。

They're all just there in the computer store, sometimes in Ziploc baggies.

有时候，一些本地人会自己制作，然后用复印机印出来。

Like, sometimes some local person would have made them and photocopied things.

这其实就是真正的独立游戏圈。

This was, like, the actual indie scene.

这就像，你知道的，这是八十年代。

This is, like, you know, this is, the eighties.

这是八十年代初。

It's early eighties.

八十年代中期。

Mid eighties.

对吧？

Right?

我就记得这些。

And I just remember that.

当然，我玩过《Tori 600》，很多这类游戏都是针对儿童的。

And, of course, I played Tori 600, and a lot of those were were targeted children.

但当时外面就有这么多东西。

But there was just such stuff out there.

后来游戏产业崩溃后复苏时，它变成了面向家长的包装儿童产品。

And then when the games industry crashed and it came back, it came back as a packaged children's product for parents.

是的。

Yeah.

那就是很长一段时间里游戏的样子。

And that's what games were for a long time.

我认为在那时，作为一位艺术家之类的，我觉得这不适合我。

And I think at that point in my life as an as an artist and stuff, was like, you know, it's not for me.

我稍微远离了它。

I kind of moved away from it a little bit.

当然，那时候仍然有各种电脑游戏存在。

And there's still computer games and stuff out there as well.

我当然只是开玩笑这么说，因为任天堂是游戏领域的杰出创造者。

Of course, I only jokingly say that because Nintendo is an amazing creator of games.

但当时我觉得，以我的经验来看，他们花了很长时间才再次开始面向各种不同的人群，不只是孩子，而是所有不同背景的人。

But at the time, I was like, it it took for the longest time in my experience for them to once again be, like like, targeting all sorts of different folks, you know, for all different sorts of folks, not just for kids.

而且

And

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

For sure.

这几乎在很大程度上，当然，你知道，他们时不时地做一些游戏，仍然有一些有趣的东西。

It almost took, like, in a large in a large way, obviously, there is, you know and I know you know this, but, obviously, there's, like, a game here and there that they're doing things, and there's still interesting stuff.

虽然有一个小小的独立游戏圈子，但真正让这一切彻底打开的是2000年代末期独立游戏的复兴和开发的民主化，重新带来了那些多元的声音，催生了当时涌现的众多游戏。

Well, there's a tiny indie scene, but it really took that indie renaissance and the democratization of, like, development really in, like, the late two thousands to smash that wide open and bring in all those new voices again that gave us all the games that were happening at that time.

你知道，我知道你们都在差不多同一时期做《失忆症》和《堡垒之夜》之类的东西。

You know, I know you're all doing Amnesia Fortnite, you know, around a similar time and stuff like that.

简直难以置信，游戏类型和体验的多样性竟然发展得如此迅速。

It's just it's incredible what how like, just how rapidly, the diversity of titles and experiences on offer came around.

这真的非常酷。

It was really, really cool.

你当时在研究什么？抱歉，你继续说。

You were studying Sorry, go.

不，不，不。

No, no, no.

只是让我想起来，我刚想到另一件事，这可能已经过了追诉期了，我不会因为这个被逮捕的。

Just reminded me, I just thought of this other This will probably I think I'm outside the statute of limitations, I can't be arrested for this.

但我记得在高中当新生或二年级时，大概14、15岁，我曾从欧洲的电子公告板系统下载盗版软件，包括不同语言的Amiga游戏和Targeted游戏。

But I do remember when I was in high school as a freshman or sophomore, so like 14, 15, I remember downloading illegal software, pirated software on bulletin board systems from Europe in different languages, Amiga games and Targeted games.

我当时根本不知道这些游戏是什么，也从来没听说过。

And I didn't know I'd never heard of these games.

而且我连说明书都没有。

And I had no I didn't have any instructions.

这些游戏甚至都不是用我的母语写的。

They weren't even in my language.

很多游戏是法语或德语的。

A lot of them were in French or German.

我记得玩这些游戏时，那种摸索规则、理解机制、弄清游戏内容的过程，是多么奇特的探索之路。

And I remember playing these games and how what a strange, like, path of discovery to even figure out what the rules were or how it worked or what the game was.

我只记得，这和你买游戏时清楚了解内容、并阅读说明书的情况截然不同。

And I just remember that being, like like, probably so different than if you bought the game and knew what it was about and read.

当然，那时候人们都会认真阅读实际的说明书，而说明书并不在游戏里。

Of course, back then, people read the actual instructions, and they weren't in the game.

教程就是那本书。

Tutorials were the book.

你知道的。

You know?

我记得，但我只记得那时我根本不知道游戏是关于什么的。

I I I remember, but I just remember that, and I didn't even know what the game would be about.

我喜欢这种毫无准备地进入游戏的感觉。

And I love that idea of going in blind.

你知道的。

You know?

那时候，我别无选择。

Like, at the time, I didn't have a choice.

但回过头看，那种方式有种特别的魔力。

But in retrospect, there was a certain magic to that.

而且很多游戏封面都附带欧洲演示场景的演示，那些令人惊叹的音视频内容，四千字节左右吧，反正就是那样。

And a lot of them had the, like, the European demo scene demos on the front, these amazing audio visual things in, four k or whatever the hell it was.

我只是觉得，这到底是什么奇怪的亚文化？

And I just it was like I was like, what is this strange subculture?

这些人是谁？

Who are these people?

你知道吗，这时候你就会开始想，为什么我没想过进入游戏行业呢？

You know, this is when you start saying, like, why didn't I think about going into games?

或者我根本不知道他们是谁。

Or did I not I was like, I didn't know who they were.

我不知道他们从哪里来。

I didn't know where they came from.

我从来没听说过这些公司中的很多。

I never heard of a lot of these companies.

你知道吗？

You know?

是的。

And Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

不管怎样，我刚刚想起了那个记忆，我们那时候，我很久没想过那件事了。

Anyways, I just had that memory when we were I hadn't thought about that a long time.

是的。

Yeah.

哇。

Wow.

是的。

Yeah.

我们在澳大利亚也有一个繁荣的演示场景，这很有趣。

We had a we had a thriving demo scene in Australia as well, and it's interesting.

当你们说的那段时期在这里蓬勃发展时，我并不知道这件事。

I wasn't aware of it when, you know, it was around the similar time that you're talking about when it was really popping off here.

但我是澳大利亚最大独立游戏节的主席，你知道，这不仅仅是一年中某个时间点的节日，我们还会举办其他活动。

But we I was the chair of a, of Australia's sort of, like, largest independent games festival out here, and you know, it's not just like a festival at one point of the year, we would do other events and everything.

我们举办了十周年纪念活动，命名为‘十年免费畅玩’，这就是这个节庆的名字。

And we did a It was our tenth anniversary, we did like a ten years of free play, that's the name of the festival.

在为这个活动做研究时，我与一位这里的游戏历史学者合作，他叫哈伦·斯塔基博士。

And in the research for that, I worked with a games historian academic out here called Doctor.

哈伦·斯塔基，她简直太出色了。

Helen Stuckey, and she's just incredible.

像她这样的人，拥有百科全书般的知识，不仅了解游戏整体的发展，还清楚墨尔本某个郊区在特定时期发生的一切，以及这些人如何相互关联，如何影响彼此的作品。

And one of these people like her encyclopedic knowledge of, like, not just what happens in games, but what happened in games in this suburb of Melbourne at this point in time and how this person is related to this person, how it affected their works.

就像一位深入研究九零年代和两千年代游戏文化及其相关发现的艺术史学家或评论家，我所发现的关于墨尔本演示场景以及当时发生的精彩事物真的非常酷，而且这些本地创作者与欧洲演示场景的人们有着紧密的联系和合作。

Like, a deep art historian or critic, but for, like, nineties, two thousands game culture and stuff, and the discoveries, like, that I made about, like, the demo scene in Melbourne and, like, the amazing stuff that was happening was really cool, and that they were, like, intimately connected and working, collaborating with, like, people overseas in the European demo scene and stuff too.

这真的非常棒。

It's really, really cool.

这是一种如此奇特、独特的游戏分支，却如此令人惊叹。

Such a such a bizarre, like, kind of offshoot of games and just so incredibly cool.

是的。

Yeah.

太酷了。

Incredibly cool.

我知道，呃，我从来没真正和那些人有过联系，但我记得自己被这些事激励了，可能不亚于被游戏本身激励。

And I know I, you know, I never really connected with any of those folks, but I just remember being inspired by that those maybe as much as the game itself.

你知道的？

You know?

他们太酷了。

They're so cool.

他们太酷了。

They're so cool.

所以你正在学习绘画和素描。

So you you're studying painting and drawing.

那是美术学位吗？还是怎么说？

So is that like a fine arts degree or like was it?

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

当你在做这些的时候，你在想些什么呢，李？

And when you're when you're doing that, what are you kinda what are you thinking, Lee?

听起来像是，你

Like, are you sounds like, what

你觉得呢？

do you think?

你让我想起我的家人。

You sound like my family.

不。

No.

我的意思是，你做这些的时候，是在

I mean, like, what are your are you doing it

带着某种目的吗？

with any kind of intention?

你只是因为当时处于那个阶段，就那样做了，之后再慢慢理清方向吗？

Are you just doing it because, like, that's where you're at that point in time and you'll figure things out after that?

还是你本来就有个计划？

Or did you have a plan?

你是那种会提前为自己制定好计划的人吗？

You the kind of person to sort of lay down a plan in front of you?

能跟我们说说，那时候你对生活和未来方向是怎么想的吗？

Give us a little bit of like sort of where you're at at that point in time about thinking about your life and sort of where you're heading.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，我妈妈可能会说我一直都有计划，但我自己真没那种感觉。

You know, my my mom would probably say that I always had a plan, but I I really didn't feel like it.

你知道，我去上了大学，然后我就觉得我对这个特别感兴趣。

You know, I I I went to college, and I was like, I'm really interested in this.

我的家人也非常支持我。

And my family was very encouraging.

我是我整个家族中第一个上大学的人。

I was the first person in my entire family to go to college.

所以他们非常支持我。

And so they were really supportive.

他们就说，好吧，你就做你想做的事吧。

And and they were like, okay, well, just just do what you wanna do.

我妈妈后来告诉我，她知道我总会找到成功的路。

My mom tells me later that she knew I would figure out a way to be successful.

但我当时并不这么觉得。

But I didn't feel that way.

真的不是。

Way.

我现在也还是不太觉得

I still don't really feel

那样。

that way.

但我当时尤其不这么觉得。

But I especially didn't feel that way then.

我当时想，好吧，我一直在心里琢磨，如果我能过得很简朴，也许我就能做一名美术生，也许我能从事美术创作。

And I was like, well, I kept trying in my mind, well, if I learn to live really leanly, maybe I can just be a fine arts, maybe I can do fine art.

这主要是因为我原本以为自己会转到平面设计与插画专业。

And that was really because I kind of went into thinking I would transfer to graphic designer illustration program.

这所大学的运作方式是，你入学时作为艺术专业学生，大约在 halfway 时，需要提交作品集以申请进入该方向的高年级课程。

And the way this college worked is that you would go in as an art major, and then you'd have about halfway through, you'd do a portfolio review to apply to the upper division classes with that focus.

在这个过程中，我逐渐发现，首先，我在上课听讲方面非常差，你知道的，我在某些方面可能是个糟糕的学生，因为我感觉自己听得不够多。

And what I discovered along the way, first of all, I'm terrible about taking, you know, I'm terrible, probably a terrible student in some ways, because I feel like I didn't listen enough.

也许每个人回望那个年纪时都会明白这一点。

Maybe everyone knows that when you look back to that age.

但我看到那些插画专业的学生，他们中有些人确实才华横溢，但他们只是——我说只是——一直在画画。

But like, I saw the illustration folks, and there were some amazing talented people, but they were just, I say just, they were just drawing.

而我当时想，我真的很想画画。

And I was like, I really wanted to paint.

我意识到，当时插画学位完全是关于绘画的。

And I realized that an illustration degree at the time was all about drawing.

现在想想，这可能对我有好处，因为我的基本功可能会更强。

Now, that would have probably benefited me because I probably would have been stronger in my fundamentals.

但我就是觉得太吸引人了。

But I was just so Yeah.

没错。

Right.

我被色彩和绘画的理念深深吸引，于是干脆说：管他呢。

Seduced by the idea of color and painting that I just said, you know, fuck it.

我就直接去拿了一个绘画和素描的学位，没有去追求插画——虽然那才是更合理的选择。

I'm I'm just gonna I'm just gonna get a degree in painting and drawing and not not pursue illustration, which have been the, like, the reasonable thing to do.

我本可能会掌握一些能直接派上用场的技能。

I would have, like, possibly come out with some hireable skills.

你知道的。

You know?

是的。

Yeah.

这说得通。

That's fair.

然后我就进入了绘画项目，我喜欢上了它。

And then I, you know, I went I went into, like, the painting program, and I liked it.

但我意识到，我主要喜欢它是因为我特别不听从权威，这一点现在可能依然如此。

But what I realized I mainly liked it because I was really bad about listening to authority, which is probably still true.

但我明白，我喜欢它是因为他们只要求你有项目，然后就可以随心所欲地做。

But realized that's why I liked it because they kinda you do whatever you wanted as long as you have, like, a project.

而我总是有一大堆想法。

And I always had a million ideas.

但我意识到，如果我选择一个更有体系、更严格的项目，我本可以成为一名更好的画家。

But but what I realized is that I wasn't you know, I could've I could've been a much better painter if I'd gone with something that probably had a little stronger, a bit of a program.

那是个不错的项目，但那里的人都是一群年迈的现代主义者。

It was a good program, but they were all aging modernists.

所以他们就说，这到底是什么东西？

So they were like, what is that even?

你知道的，艺术家就是直接在画布上作画。

You know, artists just paint on a canvas.

我得说，通过参加这个项目，我确实学到了一种不同的艺术思维方式。

And I will say that I did learn a different way of thinking about art conceptually from being in that program.

但我想我当时只是特别渴望知道，好吧，没错。

But I think I was also just like thirsty for like, okay, sure.

但具体该怎么把亚麻籽油和松节油混在一起来调颜料呢？

But like, how the fuck do I mix linseed oil with a turpentine to like, my paint?

用什么刷子？

What brush oil?

我该怎么调色？

And how do I blend colors?

而他们全都只是说：嗯，只要想象一下绘画的理念就行了。

And that was like, they were all like, well, just imagine the idea of painting.

你就会想，好吧。

You're like, okay.

那段时间挺难熬的。

It was kind of a hard time.

所以我真的没有任何计划。

So I had no I really didn't have any plan.

然后我毕业了，心想，好吧，我要去读研究生。

And then I graduated, and I was like, okay, I'm going go to grad school.

因为大家都觉得他们要做的就是没计划。

Because that's what everyone thinks they're going to do is no plan.

这并不是在贬低研究生院，但我只是想，如果我拿到艺术硕士，我本科学的是绘画与素描。

And this is not a dig on grad school, but I was just like, if I get an MFA, I had a BFA in painting and drawing.

我拿到了艺术硕士，就觉得，哦，我总可以去教书。

I got an MFA, it's like, oh, I could always teach.

并不是我真的想当老师，但如果你是演员、艺术家或音乐家，你知道你很可能最终会教书来维持生计。

Not that I was ever really wanting to be a teacher, but if you're an actor or an artist musician, you know that probably you're going to wind up teaching to make ends meet.

所以我就想，好吧，我就这么干吧。

So I was like, all right, I'll do that.

于是我就做了很多糟糕的电脑数据录入工作，你知道的，因为那时候根本没人懂电脑。

And so I kind of like worked a bunch of, you know, crappy data entry jobs on computer stuff, you know, because back then, like, no one knew computers.

他们问：你会用电子表格吗？

And they're like, do you have spreadsheet skills?

你还记得那个词是什么吗？

Like, remember what's the term?

他们当时用‘懂电脑’这个词。

They used use computer literate as a term.

字面意思就是，当有人……你不会吓得哭着跑出房间。

And literally, that just meant you didn't run from the room crying when someone.

你知道的，这就像‘会拿铅笔’一样，就是你能拿住铅笔画点什么吗？

You know, it was like, pencil literate is like, like, could you hold a pencil and make marks?

你就是会拿铅笔。

You're pencil literate.

就像那样，那就是当时找这种工作的难度标准。

Was like, that level, that was the bar of difficulty for getting a job like that.

我当时就想，是的。

I was like, yeah.

我能做，我能做那个。

I can do I can do that.

对。

Yeah.

所以我后来帮办公室里的人写Excel和WordPerfect的宏。

So I, you know, wind up, like, writing macros for someone's Excel and WordPerfect stuff at a at a office.

那就是我的工作。

That was my job.

但我每天只做六小时这个，其余时间都去画画。

But I I would do that for, like, you know, six hours a day and just paint all the rest of the time.

而且，哇。

And and Wow.

我没考上研究生，然后我就跟我的教授们聊了聊。

I I didn't get into grad school, and then I, you know, I talked to my professors.

我当时就想，这是怎么回事？

Like, I was like, what happened?

他们说，我们不录取来自同一所学校的申请者，所以你需要去别的地方。

They're like, well, we don't accept any students from the same school, so you need to go elsewhere.

而且如果学生还有一两年就要毕业了，他们也不太愿意录取，因为你可能还没确定自己真的想走这条路。

And they don't wanna accept people if you're in a year or two graduating because you probably haven't figured out that you really want to do it.

是的。

Yeah.

他们说得 probably 对。

And they're probably right.

我想，他们是希望我多一些人生阅历。

They wanted me to have more life experience, I think.

对吧？

Right?

这很公平。

Which is fair.

但听起来很难受。

But it's hard to hear.

关于Canvas，有一件事要说。

One thing to say on Canvas.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

有点听不清。

It's a little hard to hear.

就在那段时间，这挺有趣的。

And around that time so this was fun.

就在那段时间，我有个朋友，嗯，我们更像是朋友，但我几乎不认识他。

So around that time, a friend of mine who well, we're more like we're friends, but I barely knew him.

他来自高中。

He was from high school.

他去了加州大学伯克利分校，获得了计算机编程学位。

He had gone to UC Berkeley and graduated a degree in computer programming.

他在一家公司工作。

He was working at a company.

他记得我高中时画的所有画，还有一些他在大学时见过的作品。

And he remembered all the art I used to do in high school and stuff, and maybe some stuff he had seen in college.

不知怎么的，他联系上了我。

And he was like, somehow he got ahold of me.

我不记得是怎么联系上的了，可能是通过一个多年没联系的共同朋友。

I don't remember how, maybe through mutual friend because I hadn't talked to in years.

他跟我说，嘿。

And he's like, hey.

他说，迈克，我所在的公司正在做一个儿童DVD项目，需要一个动画师。

He's like, Mike, this company I'm working at, they need like an animator for this children's DVD thing we're doing.

他说，你应该试试，因为你是个非常棒的艺术家。

And he's like, you should use a play because you're a really good artist.

我当时想，我不知道怎么做动画。

And I was like, thinking, I don't know how to animate.

然后我说，好吧。

And I was like, okay.

他说，是的，你只要会用Photoshop，带一些你以前的作品幻灯片过来就行，因为以前你都是用幻灯片展示的。

And he's like, yeah, you just need to know Photoshop and bring some slides of your work in because that's what you used to carry on slides back in the day.

我会用Photoshop。

And I knew Photoshop.

我说，好吧，是的，我会用Photoshop。

And I was like, okay, yeah, sure I know Photoshop.

当然，我从来不用Photoshop。

Now, of course, I never use Photoshop.

当然不用。

Of course not.

是的。

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

所以当时我的女朋友在大学校园的办公室工作。

So my girlfriend at the time worked, she worked at a college campus in the office.

我就跟她说：嘿，你能偷一台他们的Mac电脑带回家用一周吗？

And I was like, hey, can you steal one of their Macs for the week and just like bring it home?

因为我告诉她，我说：我不知道你本来想说什么。

Because she I told her, I'm like, I don't know what's I thought you were gonna say

一个Photoshop的副本，但你却说：不是。

a copy of Photoshop, but you're like, no.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

家里也没有电脑。

Have a computer at home either.

我当时连电脑都没有，而且我实在太无聊了。

I didn't I didn't even own a computer at that And I was I was too bored.

你觉得你能把那台电脑偷出来吗？

I was like, you can you steal that computer?

你觉得你能把它从办公室偷带出去吗？

Do you think you could smuggle it out of the office?

就是那种Mac SE之类的电脑。

You know, was like a Mac SE or something.

她真的这么做了。

And she did.

然后我自学了用鼠标操作 Photoshop。

And then I taught myself Photoshop with a mouse.

我用它做了一些图片，保存在那个周末的软盘上，等等。

I made a couple images on it and stuff and saved them onto a floppy over that weekend and stuff.

所以下周一我去面试时，就说：是的，这是我用 Photoshop 最新的作品。

And so I went to the interview the next Monday and I was like, yeah, here's some stuff in my latest work on Photoshop.

我最终确实被录用了。

I did wind up getting hired there.

但没错，那件事很奇怪，因为这纯粹是个巧合。

But yeah, that was and that's when I sort of was like it was strange because it was just this coincidence.

就是恰好在对的时间出现在对的地方。

It's being in the right place at the right time.

但它确实重新点燃了（我的热情）。

But it did rekindle.

我当时就想，哦对，我真的很喜欢电脑。

Was like, oh yeah, I really like computers.

哦对，我真的很喜欢游戏和艺术。

Oh, yeah, I really like games and art.

我喜欢很多那样的东西，只是当时没意识到别人会为此付钱。

I do like a lot of the stuff that I was like, I just didn't realize anyone would pay you money for it at the time.

那个时代真的非常有趣。

It is so interesting that era.

亚当·摩尔在播客的一集中采访了杰夫·加德纳，我听了那期节目。

Adam Moore just interviewed Jeff Gardner in an episode for the podcast, and I was listening to it.

杰夫那期节目非常棒，还没听过的人都可以听听。

And Jeff it's a great episode for anyone who hasn't listened.

杰夫说，他只是在派对上偶然遇到一个认识的人，对方就跟他说，嘿。

And Jeff's Jeff's saying that, like, just bumped into a guy at a party that he knew, and he was like, hey.

我正在一家游戏公司工作。

I'm working at this games company.

你应该来。

You should come.

他当时说，哦，那时候在游戏行业里有太多人游荡了，他们的技能、童年经历，甚至方方面面都隐隐指向这条路，但他们根本不知道这竟然是一个职业、一个机会，也不知道该如何进入，直到有人突然说，是的。

And he's like, oh, that's like, there are so many people wandering around games at the time that, like, it's their skill set and their childhood or, like, all parts are kinda leading towards it, but they just had kinda no idea that it was a thing or an opportunity or how to get in, and then someone's just like, oh, yeah.

我在这儿。

I'm over here.

你应该做这个。

You should do this.

或者，嘿，有个机会。

Or like, hey, there's this opportunity.

或者他们看到报纸上的一则消息，然后说，哦，原来如此。

Or they see a thing in the paper and they're like, oh, okay.

像你这样的人四处探索，然后突然安定下来，真的很有趣。

It's really interesting how the folks like you kinda like bounce around and then just like plunk yourself down.

当你最终坐下来做这份工作时，感觉像是终于找到了归宿，还是觉得陌生、别扭，难以适应，或者从一开始就很顺遂？

Did it feel when you when you sat down at this at this job that you'd that you'd scored, did it feel like you had kind of you were at home, or was it new and strange and kinda awkward to get into, or were you kinda just off and flying from the start?

不。

No.

我想我当时可能只是，你知道的，在某种程度上有着严重的冒名顶替综合症。

I think I was probably just, you know, a super big impostor syndrome in some ways.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我确实记得那种感觉。

I remember those vibes for sure.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道的？

You know?

我记得没有。

And I remember no.

我真的没有。

I I really didn't.

我一点都不自在。

I really was not comfortable at all.

我的意思是，那里的人都很友善。

I mean, the people there were very nice.

我一直挺擅长快速上手新东西的。

And always been pretty good about picking things up quickly.

所以我很快就学会了所有要用的软件，并参与了这个产品的开发。

So I was able to learn all the software really quickly And we're using and and make this this product.

有趣的是，我在那里工作时意识到：天啊，我真的很想进入电子游戏行业。

And and it was funny because I was like, I realized working there, was like, man, I really wanna get into video games.

但这家公司严格来说并不是一家游戏公司。

But this was not a video game company per se.

他们是一家多媒体公司。

They were like a multimedia company.

是的。

Yeah.

懂吗？

Know?

因为DVD是新事物，所以大家都在制作多媒体DVD。

So because DVDs were new, and so everyone was making multimedia DVDs.

对。

Yeah.

多媒体是个大话题。

Multimedia was a whole thing.

对吧？

Right?

那真是个大趋势。

It was a whole thing.

好莱坞正在大量投资于此。

And Hollywood is dumping money into it.

是的。

And Yeah.

我记得，这家公司除了做这种儿童动画之外，还有一个独立的部门，后来我调到了那个部门，负责为漫画书做数字上色，我就做了这个工作。

I remember so we also this company also, in addition to this sort of children's animation thing, they had they had a whole separate branch that I would eventually transfer into that was working on comics, doing digital coloring for comic books, which I did.

但在我去之前，我曾为一本叫E2的杂志每月制作一张光盘，你可以想象，这和制作E3的是同一家公司。

But before I got there, I did some they would author a disc every month for this magazine called E2, which as you can imagine is the same company that made E3.

他们是以促销的方式做的。

They did it on sale.

这是电子娱乐。

It was electronic entertainment.

所以我们为它制作了附赠光盘。

And so we did the cover disc for that.

我记得做过一些美术工作，还有些，你知道的，比如哇。

So I remember doing art and some, you know, like Wow.

那不是，那更像是宏媒体导演的编程。

It wasn't it was like macro media director programming.

真有趣，这么冷门的宏媒体导演。

So funny funny deep cut macro media director.

你居然知道这个程序，真是太棒了，因为很多人都不知道。

Amazing that you know of this program because so many people don't.

但《Solium Infernum》这款游戏，我们去年重新开发并发布了，它最初是在2009年开发的。

But Solium Infernum, the game that we kind of, like, rebooted and released last year, we it was originally developed in 2009.

它在2009年发布，但最初是由一位来自俄亥俄州雅典的名叫维克·戴维斯的单人开发者制作的，他完全不了解周围的游戏社区，只是在家里的地下室里用宏媒体导演编写了整个游戏，开发了一个带有AI的多人回合制游戏。

It was released in 2009, but originally developed by one guy called Vic Davis out of Athens, Ohio, who kinda had no idea about, like, you know, like any kind of games community around him just in his den at home coding this whole game, developing this whole game in Macromedia Director, like a multiplayer turn based game with AI and everything.

强迫这个程序用Lingo语言去做一些它根本不是为此设计的事情。

Like, just forced this program coding in lingo to, like, do things that it was never born to do.

这个程序，正如我们刚才说的，原本是用来制作DVD菜单的。

A program, as you know, as we're talking about, designed to make DVD menus.

是的。

So yeah.

他也来自类似的多媒体领域。

And he came from that kind of multimedia area as well.

他和他兄弟创办了一家公司，做的一些东西比如，我记得他跟我提过，你可以买一张DVD，它利用了DVD的交互式菜单功能，来做一些像内战战役的战术回放和历史游览之类的内容，然后卖给那些内战迷、历史爱好者之类的。

Like, him and his brother had formed a company where they were, like, making was things like I think one of the things that he mentioned to me was like, you know, you could buy a DVD and it was like utilizing the interactive menus, you know, functionality of a DVD to do like tours of like and kind of like historical kind of like tactical playbacks of civil war battles and things like that, that they would like sell to these like civil war, you know, fanatics or whatever, historian or buffs.

是的。

Yeah.

但Macromedia就是人们在做那种多媒体领域的暗黑技艺。

But like macro media is people just doing, it's like the dark arts of multimedia.

对吧？

Right?

那个程序。

That program.

它现在已经不存在了。

It's not, it's not around anymore.

对吧？

Right?

它早就死了，成了过去式。

It's it's long dead body language.

是的。

Yeah.

它被Adobe收购了。

It got bought by Adobe.

Macromedia的所有东西很久以前就被Adobe收购了，之后他们继续维护了一段时间，但现在完全消失了。

So all of the stuff that Macromedia used to be Macromedia got bought by Adobe a long time ago, and then they continued them for a while, and they're long gone now.

但没错，我的意思是，Flash最初是Macromedia开发的产品，后来被他们收购了。

But, yeah, I mean, that's where the Flash was originally part of was originally a product that Macromedia made that they bought.

它最初的名字叫Future Splash Animator。

Future Splash Animator was what it was originally called.

天哪。

Oh, shit.

我忘了这茬了。

Forgot that.

就像有人跟你说，你得看看这个程序。

Like who were like, you gotta check this program out.

那是它还没被Macromedia收购之前的第一个版本，后来Macromedia又被Adobe收购了，现在大家都知道Flash了。

It was, like, the first version before it became part of Macromedia, which then became part Adobe, which then everyone knows Flash for now.

对吧？

Right?

但他们说，它最初叫Future Flash Animation。

But they're like, it was called Future Flash Animation.

他说，你完全可以在这个软件里做动画，还自带一种简单的编程语言，能实现一些基础功能。

He's like, you can totally animate in this, and then you can there's this little programming language that you can do some simple things.

那时候确实是这样，我是说，我其实没怎么用过这些工具，但我记得当时这一切都特别新鲜。

And that was like, yeah, it was this weird I mean, I never really used those too much, but I just remember at the time, it was like all kind of brand new.

我们用过一个叫Elastic Reality的工具，是一种二维变形软件。

We used this tool called Elastic Reality, which was morphing, two d morphing software.

我用它来补关键帧之间的中间帧，因为我本身不是特别擅长动画。

I used it to do in betweens of these keyframes, because I'm not much of an animator.

所以我想，我可以画出所有这些姿势。

So I was like, well, I can draw all these poses.

我想，我要用这个奇怪的变形软件，它原本是为《终结者2》开发的，来为一款儿童软件DVD制作中间帧。

And I was like, I'm gonna use this weird morphing software, which was developed for Terminator two to do in betweens for a kid's software DVD.

而我呢，如果办公室有人有这个软件，我就用Elastic Reality来做补间，然后稍微修一修。

And here I am, like, if someone had a copy in the office, so I'm using, like, you know, elastic reality to do my tweens, and I just clean them up.

是的。

Yeah.

那时候真的特别奇怪。

It was really, you know, really strange at the time.

你知道的？

You know?

对。

Yeah.

不过可能算不上最好的动画。

Probably not the best animation, though.

我当时真的不知道自己在做什么。

I didn't really know what I was doing.

但没错。

But yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

那么，动画如果不是大量图画的集合，还能是什么？

Well, what's animation if not just a lot of drawings?

你知道的。

You know?

就是更多的图画连在一起。

Just more drawings together.

对吧？

Right?

它给我留下了大约240乘180、每秒12帧的画面，看起来并不太差

It left me the whatever it was, two forty by one eighty at 12 frames a second didn't look too

糟糕。

bad.

你你明白吗？

You You can know?

在那里面可以隐藏很多东西，是的，在那么多像素里。

Hide a lot in that, yeah, in that many pixels.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

所以你现在是在做多媒体相关的工作，那你是什么时候开始涉足电子游戏的？

So you're how so you're at this you're at this place doing multimedia stuff, and then you do you when did you break out into video games?

你是什么时候迈出这一步的？

When you make the leap?

不，不是这样的。

See, no.

这中间还隔了一段时间，因为我在这家公司工作了一阵子。

It was it was a while still because I I worked this company for a while.

我们当时做的是漫画的数字上色。

We did these digital coloring of comic books.

后来这家公司就不做这个了。

And then the company so I wouldn't did that.

也正是在那里，我积累了深厚的Photoshop经验。

And that's where I got deep Photoshop experience.

对吧？

Right?

再说一遍，回到Photoshop的第一个版本，那时候叫Barney Scan，因为Adobe最初是做扫描软件的。

Like, again, going back to the first version of Photoshop, which was called Barney scan because Adobe did Adobe it was scanning software.

然后它让我明白了。

Then it got me Right.

用这个非常早期、还没有图层功能的Photoshop来为这些漫画上色，真是疯狂。

To use this really early pre layers version of Photoshop to color these comics, which was crazy.

不管怎样，我做了好一阵子，然后整个公司倒闭了。

Anyway, so I I did that for a while, and then that whole company went bust.

那里的艺术总监去做了电子游戏。

And one the art director there went and worked in video games.

于是我去了另一家公司，那是一家从事电影和视频制作，以及早期网页制作和CD制作的制作公司。

And I went and worked at this company, this production company that did film and video work, as well as early web work, as well as CD work.

当我在这家公司时——我离开前最终成了艺术总监——我学了很多早期数字电影剪辑的知识，使用Avid Media Composer进行数字视频剪辑。

And so when I was at that company, which I eventually became the art director before I left, did a lot of learn to do digital video editing on an avid media composer in the early days of digital film editing.

我还多学了一点网页方面的知识，因为我们做过一些网页动画。

I learned a little bit more on web stuff because we did some web animation.

那时候Shockwave是Macromedia的产品，我们经常用它。

So Shockwave was the macromedia product back then we used to use.

我记得我差点被开除，因为我做了一个叫《羊脂球》的Shockwave程序，而不是《沉默的羔羊》。

I remember I almost got fired for making a program for a little thing called Shockwave of the Lambs instead of Silence of the Lambs.

老板只是说，我们需要给客户做个演示。

The boss just said, we need a demo for a client.

他只要求用Shockwave技术做个东西。

He just wants something Shockwave tech.

所以随便做个什么就行。

So just make anything.

我就想，好吧，既然要随便做，那就做个互动的，随便什么都行。

I'm like, well, what is just make it interactive, make it anything.

于是我做了一个小的Shockwave程序，你在一头鲸鱼的肚子里。

So I made a little Shockwave program where you're at the bottom of a whale.

我还用自己模仿的糟糕连环杀手声音录了音。

And I recorded myself with a bad serial killer impersonation.

他们放下一个桶。

They lower a bucket down.

他说：把乳液放进篮子里。

He's like, put the lotion in the basket.

你把乳液拖到篮子里。

You drag the lotion onto the basket.

我老板第一次看到这个是在客户面前。

First time my boss sees this is in front of the client.

他问：你到底做了什么？

He's like, what the fuck did you do?

我说：你不是说好的吗。

I'm like, well, you said Yeah.

总之，太不可思议了。

Anyway Incredible.

哇。

Wow.

是的。

Yeah.

但我确实做了。

But I did.

我才知道，这位女士的祖父曾经教过他核避难所和军用毒气的知识。

I learned didn't know that this is the same lady whose grandfather was giving him fallout out shelter science and military gas.

是的。

Yeah.

看起来确实是这样。

It seems like it's Yeah.

随便做吧。

Just do whatever

你做的。

you make.

在后面。

Behind.

他很喜欢。

He loved it.

客户非常喜欢。

The client loved it.

是的。

Yeah.

它是互动的。

It was interactive.

他可以把乳液拖进篮子里，然后把它举起来。

He got to drag a lotion into a basket, and he'd raise it up.

狗在某个时候摔倒了。

The dog had fallen at one point.

而且它

And it

是啊。

was yeah.

所以我在那个工作室时学到了三个D，因为那还算新奇。

So I did learn three d when I was at that studio because it was kind of new.

因为在那之前，都是类似SGI级别的东西。

Because before then, was all like SGI level.

所以你必须接受专门的培训，没人在学校教过

So you had to have special training, no one taught

在学校里。

it in school.

但我确实在那里学了Autodesk。

But I did learn Autodesk there.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yep.

这是Studio Max之前的版本。

This is pre pre Studio Max.

所以我学了那个程序，因为我们得做一些，你知道的，动态图形风格的渲染工作。

And so I learned that program because we had to do some, you know, motion graphic style rendering stuff.

所以回到你问我什么时候进入电子游戏行业的问题，我那时在第一家公司的艺术总监当时在Accolade工作。

And so getting back to your question about when I got into video games, so my former art director at the at that first company was working at Accolade.

他对我说：嘿。

And he's like, hey.

他们在招人。

They're hiring.

你是个非常出色的艺术家。

You're a really good artist.

而且你现在还有了其他所有经验。

Now you have all this other experience.

你去申请这个职位吧。

You apply for this.

于是我制作了一个交互式DVD作为我的作品集，因为我有所有这些脚本经验，还渲染了一些三维图形之类的。

And so I made this interactive DVD as my demo reel, because I had all that scripting experience and render out these little three d graphics and stuff.

我知道，我的作品集肯定很糟糕。

And you know, pretty terrible portfolio, I'm sure.