在《 DISPATCH》中与导演尼克·赫尔曼探讨叙事设计

虽然那会很有趣。

As fun as it would have been.

是的。

Yeah.

是的，而且。

And yeah.

然后在那个时候，我们开始和Telltale一起制作《狼人2》，中间有好几年的内容我们可以跳过。

And then so at that point, we, you know, we we started working on wolf two with Telltale, and there's a whole couple years of stuff there we can skip.

当然。

Sure.

然后当我们决定要——是的。

And then when we decided we wanted to yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我已经聊够了关于《狼人》的事。

I've talked talked about about wolf enough.

是的。

Yeah.

我们不必。

We don't have to.

我们不必。

We don't have to.

祝你好运。

Good luck.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我们当时基本上就是说，好吧。

So then we were then we were basically like, okay.

让我们做我们自己的原创内容。

Like, let's do our own original thing.

我们基本上从另一个地方开始，尝试了大约六个月，开发了一些全新的IP，完全是不同类型的游戏。

And we we basically started somewhere else, and we tried on some like, like, six months of trying making some new IPs that was, like, a completely different genre of game.

然后我们终于开始想，我们到底在做什么？

And then eventually, we're just like, what are we doing?

我们已经有这些脚本，一直放在架子上。

We already have this, like, scripts, like, sitting on the shelf.

不如我们就直接做这个吧。

Like, let's just let's just make that.

所以

So

是什么让你决定选择超级英雄的？

What what made you decide on superheroes?

我这么问是因为，电视、电影等领域一直都在争论超级英雄疲劳的问题，而《无敌》却出现了。

And I ask because the ongoing debate in TV film everything with Marvel and DC is, you know, superhero fatigue, and then Invincible comes out.

结果超级英雄又火了。

And it's like superheroes are we are so back.

然后又发生了别的事，大家又说：哦，不。

Like and then something else happens, and it's like, oh, no.

我们完了。

We're over.

所以对你来说，超级英雄题材的哪些方面让你觉得适合这种表现方式？

So for you, what about the superhero genre did you feel was a good fit for this kind of execution?

我的意思是，七年前我们产生这个想法的时候，

Well, I mean, when we had the idea seven years ago,

当然，有

Sure, There

当时疲劳感还少一些。

was a little less fatigue.

所以那不是什么大问题，实际上，我们非常功利地想，不如做个有广泛吸引力的东西。

So that was less of a concern and really it was very cynically, like let's make something with broad appeal.

毕竟，我们是在做生意，归根结底是这样。

So it was, you know, we're running a business, you know, at the end of the day.

所以我们就想，不如做点什么吧。

So it's like, let's make sure let's do something.

比如，我和皮埃尔、丹尼斯合作的经验，我们三个人第一次一起工作是在Telltale的《狼人：谎言之中的狼》。

Like, my my sort of experience working with Pierre and Dennis, we we we all the three of us started working together for the first time on Wolf, Wolf Among Us at Telltale.

是的。

Mhmm.

那段经历是这样的，嘿。

And that experience was, hey.

这是一本漫画书。

Here's a here's a comic book.

我们其实都不是特别狂热的《寓言》粉丝。

None of us were really, like, huge fables heads or anything.

我们读了它，不只是简单地欣赏，但也没到死忠粉丝的地步。

Like, we, you know, read it and not just kind of appreciated it, but it wasn't like we weren't huge fanboys.

所以我们得想清楚，什么样的版本才会让我们真正兴奋。

And so we had to, like, figure out what version of this would we be really excited about.

所以，八十年代的新浪潮黑色风格，还有前传这类设定，就是这么来的——因为我们真的对它产生了兴趣。

And so that's kind of where, you know, the eighties, neo noir, like, prequel stuff came from is, like, we just could get excited about it.

同样地，在《边境传说》中，我并不是个狂热的《边境》粉丝，只是玩过不少《边境2》。

And and then sort of similarly on Tales of the Borderlands, not a huge Borderlands person, like, you know, played a bunch of Borderlands two.

但问题是，我们怎么把它变成我们自己会想看、会想玩的东西？

But it was like, how do we turn this into something that we would go see or go go play ourselves?

所以，这基本上就是我们的整体风格：拿任何东西出来，

And and so that's our kind of general, like, style is take a thing.

不管它是什么，都要把它改造成我们自己会感兴趣的样子。

It doesn't matter what it is and just turn it into something that we'd be into.

所以超级英雄题材也只是再次这样处理而已。

So superheroes is kinda just that again.

它本身就是一个IP，我们要怎么处理它，才能让我们自己觉得吸引人？

It's like its own IP of, like, what the what what are we gonna do with this that's gonna be appealing to us?

所以，是的。

And so so yeah.

而且，游戏的基调以及很多高层创意决策，其实都变得非常发散。

And and and, I mean, the tone of the game and and a lot of the decisions, the sort of high level creative decisions kinda went all over the place.

以前特别压抑，后来疫情来了，我们开始看《泰德·拉索》，心想：我就想感觉好一点。

Like, used to be super depressing, and then the pandemic hit, and then we were like watching Ted Lasso going, I just wanna feel good.

我们能不能暂时别那么愤世嫉俗，对吧？

Can we like can we just not, you know, be super cynical for a second and like Yeah.

然后做点更像安慰食物的东西？

And like make it make something that feels more like comfort food?

所以这其实是各种元素的混合。

And so it's kind of like this mix of things.

罗伯特仍然是个有点抑郁的人，但我们给他周围安排了好人，努力不断给他带来乐趣。

Robert is still kind of a depressed person, but we're, you know, surrounding him with, you know, good people and and trying to constantly entertain.

但这确实是个大杂烩，我很高兴它成功了，也很高兴大家喜欢，因为这东西我们太熟悉了，我根本不知道别人会怎么看待它。

But it is like a hodgepodge of of of things, and I'm glad it worked, I'm glad people like it because it's one of those things that we've been so close to for so long that I truly did not know what people are gonna think of this thing.

这是一款非常奇怪的游戏。

It's it's a very weird game.

是的。

Yeah.

但听起来你其实是在谈论一种令人安心的、不那么愤世嫉俗的东西，我觉得这一点在《Dispatch》的最终成品中体现得非常明显。

But it sounds like you you really you were talking about, you know, something comforting, something less cynical, and I think that's very present in the final product of dispatch.

听起来不错。

Sounds good.

所以当你在为这个项目寻求资金并开发时，我读到过，你们曾经有一位出版商退出了。

So so when you were when you were going for funding for this and you were building it out, I've read, you know, you had a publisher that bailed on you.

根据我读过的一篇文章，你们在游戏发布前几个月就停止给自己发工资了。

Like, you You stopped paying yourselves a couple months ago prior to launch according to an article I read.

那么，对于这种情况，你们的感受如何？

So in terms of that situation, what was that like?

是合作伙伴来来去去，还是像现在许多独立游戏所面临的那样——‘给我们一个完成度90%的作品，我们给你们足够的钱，让你们的名字出现在包装盒上，帮你们完成最后一步并做推广’？这种现实确实令人沮丧，也相当 cynical。

Was it just partners were coming and leaving, or was it the story that is so familiar to so many indie games right now, which is, oh, give us something that's 90% done, and we'll give you enough money to put our name on the box and just get you across the finish line and market you, which is an unfortunate reality right now and kind of a very cynical looking at it.

但这段经历对你们来说究竟是怎样的？

But what was that journey like for you?

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我们很难找到最初的合作伙伴。

I mean, we it was hard to find an initial partner.

正如我所说，我们几乎向所有人推介过。

Like I said, we I mean, we pitched basically everybody.

我们有一个相当扎实的提案，而且我们很清楚自己在做什么。

And and what would happen is we had a pretty solid pitch and a and a and a good, you know, like, we we knew what we were doing.

但人们往往会说，

But people would go people would go like,

天啊。

oh my god.

这太棒了。

This is incredible.

看起来太好了。

This looks so good.

哇。

Wow.

你们这些家伙，我超喜欢你们之前做的所有东西。

This is you guys, I love everything you've done before.

我是你们的铁粉。

Big fan.

但我们真的没法做这个。

But we we just can't do this.

这就会像一遍又一遍地重复同样的事情：我们很喜欢这个。

It would just be, like, the same thing over and over again where it's like, we love this.

这太酷了。

This is so cool.

看起来太棒了。

It looks incredible.

我们之前做过动画。

We had we had animation.

我们原本有一些东西可以展示，那些基本上是最终版本之后的内容，但仍然风险太大。

We had, you know, stuff to show that that basically was post final and but it was still just, like, it's too risky.

这风险太高了。

It's too much of a risk.

所以我们最终找到了一个真正相信我们的人，他们在开发进行到一半时支持了这个项目，然后又继续支持下去。

And so we eventually found someone who who did believe in us, and they supported the project about halfway through development and then and then halfway through.

那段时间是这个行业最糟糕的时期之一，我不知道，大概是过去十五年里，各种合作纷纷终止，工作室纷纷关闭。

It was, you know, the one of the worst times in the industry, like, I don't know, in, like, the last fifteen years was just, like, you know, all sorts of deals closing, studios shutting down.

简直就像一切都被冻结了。

Like, it was like, everything froze.

资金根本找不到，甚至那些支持我们的人自己也陷入困境，开始考虑自己会失去什么。

Like, money was impossible to find to the point where people who were supporting us were having trouble too and were, like, looking for, like, what they what they had to lose.

而我们恰恰排在名单最前面，因为我们做的游戏太古怪了。

And we were we were kind of at the top of the list because we were such a weird game.

所以我们确实失去了资金。

So so then we lost, yeah, we lost funding.

我们差不多找了一年，才最终找到Critical Role。

And we've I mean, we were looking for, like, a year before essentially before we found Critical Role.

每一周都不确定资金从哪里来，压力会越来越大，气氛也会越来越紧张。

And it was, you know, every every every week where you're where you don't know where the money's coming from is is, you know, the screws get tighter and and things get tense.

是的。

Yeah.

你必须做出很多艰难的决定。

And you have to make a lot of hard calls.

你知道，你创办游戏工作室是为了做游戏，但后来才发现，那只是工作的一半。

Like, it's the part of this thing that like, you know, you start a you start a game studio to make video games and you realize that's like half the job.

对。

Yeah.

你知道吗？

You know?

支持工作室、维持它的运转，才是真正最重要、却很奇怪的部分。

And and supporting the studio and keeping it keeping it going is is the actual, it's weirdly the most important part.

对吧？

Right?

不是奇怪，而是现在看来很明显了。

Not weirdly, but it's obvious now.

但你刚开始的时候根本不会想到这些事。

But, you don't think about that kind of stuff when you're starting.

是的。

No.

你们是怎么找到Critical Role的？

How how did you find Critical Role?

是他们主动找上你们的吗？

Like, did they approach you?

还是你们主动去找他们的？

Did you approach them?

他们带来了什么？

What did they bring?

他们让我玩游戏里的派遣部分，这感觉有点像在玩桌游。

Did they I'm playing the dispatch parts of the game does feel a little bit like playing some playing a tabletop game.

所以我得问一下，这个合作关系是怎么达成的？

So I have to ask, like, what was that was how did that partnership come to be?

是的。

Yeah.

因为我们之前已经和劳拉合作了，我们从《边境传说》就开始和她合作了，也一直和她一起录音。

That was so we had already we were working with Laura, who we have a relationship with from from Tales of the Borderlands, and we had been recording with her.

她基本上给特拉维斯看了一下，说：嘿。

And she had basically showed Travis, like, hey.

看看我正在和AdHocGuys一起做的这个游戏的这段动画。

Check out this this animation for this game that I'm doing with the AdHocGuys.

而她嫁给了特拉维斯·威林厄姆，他是Critical Role的首席执行官。

And and she's married to Travis Willingham, who is the CEO of Critical Role.

他看到了那段动画，我想他们当时正处在寻找游戏战略方向的阶段，已经找了一段时间了。

And he saw that, and I guess they were kind of in this spot where they had been looking for a while to figure out what their game strategy was gonna be.

他们有电视节目。

Like, they're this they've got TV shows.

他们还有桌游。

They've got, you know, tabletop.

他们还有现场演出之类的活动。

They've got, you know, the the the sort of live show stuff.

所以他们自然在思考，接下来该往哪个业务领域发展。

And so they're naturally looking to figure out what's next for them as far as, like, the next, like, whatever sector of their business.

因此，他们面前有很多机会和选择，但都没有让特拉维斯觉得合适。

So they had, you know, a lot of opportunities, a lot of options in front of them, but nothing felt right to Travis.

然后他看到了我们正在做的东西，觉得这似乎很适合Critical Role。

And and then he saw what we were doing and thought, like, this feels like something that would make sense for for Critical Role.

于是我们开始与他们合作，说实话，大概在我们做派送部分之前一年，他们就帮了我们一些忙。

And so we engaged with them, I mean, I don't know, honestly, like, about a year before before we did the they kinda helped us dispatch.

我们当时在和他们讨论，能为Critical Role做些什么。

We were talking to them about what could we do for Critical Role.

所以我们当时非常专注于他们的知识产权。

So we were very much all, you know, focused on their IP.

然后，渐渐地，我不太记得具体是什么时候了，但我们突然说：嘿。

And kind of eventually, I don't really remember the moment or when it happened, but we were just like, hey.

如果我们连分发版都做不出来，根本就到不了那里。

Like, we we're not even gonna get there if we can't get dispatch out.

是的。

Like Yeah.

我们为什么不聊聊你们帮我们做分发版的事呢？

Why don't we talk about you guys fig like, helping us on dispatch?

你们有兴趣吗？

Are you interested?

幸运的是，到那时我们已经完成了游戏的大部分内容，你可以更清楚地看到它、体验它并理解它。

And and luckily, by that point, we've got a lot of the game built, and you can kinda see more of it and play it and understand it.

所以，没错。

So so yeah.

然后对话就转向了，好吧。

So then it then the conversation shifted to, like, okay.

我们先专注于调度。

Let's focus on dispatch first.

一旦这些讨论开始，事情就变得很明显了。

And and then once once those conversations started, it was, like, obvious.

大家都说：天哪。

Like, everyone was like, oh my god.

真不敢相信我们之前没早点谈这个。

Can't believe we didn't talk about this sooner.

所以，是的，他们基本上就加入了。

So so, yeah, they basically they came in.

我的意思是，游戏的设计早就差不多定好了。

I mean, the game had already been, like, sort of written design.

我们当时正在做动画。

We were in animation.

所以他们真的是我们的坚定支持者。

So they really were, like, you know, champions for us.

他们在游戏上线后还在帮我们处理很多事务。

They're helping us, you know, post launch with a lot of stuff.

他们一直在帮我们做市场推广，但最初他们进来是为了确保项目获得所需的资金并支持我们。

They're, you know, been helping us with the marketing, but but really, initially, it was like they came in to to make sure that the project got the funding it needed and and supported us.

而且他们真的是我们的完美合作伙伴，因为他们正是我们希望成为的那种工作室或公司。

And and they're I mean, we it's a perfect partner for us because they're exactly the kind of studio or, like, company that we hope to be.

是的。

Yeah.

他们是创意驱动的。

It's creative led.

他们最初只是讲述互动故事，然后逐步探索如何接触并分享给更多人。

They started just by telling literally interactive stories and then and then figuring out ways to to to reach people and share that with folks.

因此他们理解我们所做的事情，感觉就像我们的兄长或姐姐一样。

And so they see what we're doing, and then it really feels like like they're kind of like a an older brother or sister to us.

所以

So

这真的很暖心。

That's really sweet.

我喜欢成功的故事。

I love a success story.

我超喜欢。

I love it.

我喜欢看到对所有人都有利的联合开发合作。

I love seeing I love seeing co dev partnerships that work out well for everybody.

是的。

Yeah.

这很罕见。

It's rare.

是的。

Yeah.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

我想稍微回溯一下，谈谈关于调度的大量讨论。

I wanna I wanna rewind a little bit and talk about a lot of the conversation around dispatch.

你们都来自Telltale。

You all did come from Telltale.

你们是在Telltale成长起来的。

You came up through Telltale.

所以很多人谈到这个，就像所谓的‘Telltale风味’。

And so a lot of people talk about this with, you know, like, the Telltale sauce.

你们会如何界定Telltale那种分支叙事风格与你们在《调度》中所做内容之间的DNA联系呢？

How how would you draw, you know, the the DNA line between kind of the Telltale style branching to what you did in Dispatch?

因为它们相似，但又具有自己的独特性。

Because it is similar but has its own identity.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我觉得当肖恩和杰克制作《行尸走肉》时，他们实际上创造了一种全新的类型，这很明显。

I mean, I think it's the you know, when Sean and Jake did the walking dead, you know, they they kind of you know, I I feel like they invented a new, like, genre, obviously.

很多元素之前都以不同形式存在过，但他们为《行尸走肉》整合出的这种组合方式，对我而言非常重要，也深深影响了我。

Like, a lot of these pieces were there in different forms, but that sort of combination of what what they put together for for Walking Dead, it was clearly important to me and and impactful to me.

我认为Telltale所做的，以及我们持续在做的，就是专注于角色。

I think what I think what Telltale did and and what we are continuing to do is focus on characters.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而且，你知道，我们做的某些方面确实会受到批评，比如：‘你们到底有多少个结局？’

And it's where, you know, I think there, you know, can be critique on stuff we do where it's like, oh, but, you know, how many endings are there?

这几乎是我们在游戏发布前总会被问到的问题。

It's like a question we would get all the time, like, before the game launch.

比如：‘你们的游戏到底会有多少个结局？’

Like, well, how many endings are there gonna be?

但在我们看来，这种关注点根本就是错的。

And, like, it just seems like the wrong thing to be focused on to us.

是的

Yeah.

但你知道，我们真的专注于角色，以及你能够施加影响的有意义的关系。

But, you know, so I I think we're really focused on the characters, meaningful relationships that you have agency over.

最终，这将导致不同的结局，没错。

And then ultimately, that will lead to different outcomes and and yeah.

所以，我认为这可能是Telltale与像Quantic Dream之类公司的区别所在。

And so there's I I think, that's kind of the difference between maybe Telltale and, like, I don't know, like, something like more like, Quantic Dream or something.

但至少，我认为这是我延续下来的东西，或者至少，皮埃尔和编剧们在设计故事时所坚持的。

But that's at least the thing that I think I carried forward, or at least, you know, Pierre and the writers carry forward when we're when we're designing our stories.

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When you register, use the code Dice twenty twenty six g e n 10.

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你提到过你们的角色，你们的演员阵容真的很庞大。

How did you for your you mentioned your your characters, and your cast is really quite big.

你们有罗伯特，还有一群非常鲜明的配角。

So you have Robert and then you have this really colorful cast of supporting characters.

在构思这种叙事形式、整合故事时，听起来你们是以角色为核心的。

For you, when you were thinking about the format, putting that story together, sounds like you were very character led.

你们是先确定了这个角色阵容，然后思考‘这些是我们想用的元素’，还是先构建了故事框架，之后这些角色才陆续出现的？

Did you build out that roster first and think, you know, these are the pieces that we wanna use, or did you come up with, you know, a framework of the story and then all of these characters came in after?

因为我觉得这个演员阵容特别有趣的一点是，他们如何融入派送机制——比如，这是他们的技能，这是他们的专长，差不多就是他们所处的位置。

Because something that I think that's really interesting about the cast is the way that they fit into the dispatch mechanic in terms of, oh, this is their skill set, this is what they're good at, kind of like this is where they are.

我觉得这一点非常有趣。

I found that to be really interesting.

你觉得你已经涵盖了所有可能的元素。

You feel like you have kind of full coverage of every element you possibly could.

但在个性和角色方面，其中一些真的非常有趣。

But in terms of the personality and character, some of them are really quite interesting.

你有一个身材矮小但强壮的家伙，还有Cryptobat，他是我最喜欢的角色。

You have your small strong guy and Cryptobat who was my favorite character.

不过，你是怎么设计出这么庞大的角色阵容的呢？

But, yeah, just how did you how did you approach building out such a large cast?

好吧，现在我知道你剪掉了谁。

Well, now I know who you who you cut.

但是

But

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

对。

Yes.

我做到了100%。

I did a 100%.

我必须保留Cryptobat。

I had to keep Cryptobat.

我非常喜欢他。

I love him.

他确实很有趣，因为他在真人版最初剧本中就已经是这个角色了。

He's well, that's I mean, he's an interesting one to start with because he started as that character in the very first draft of the live action thing.

他一直在那里，但只出现在休息室的那场戏里。

He was there, but just the scene in the break room.

所以在第二集，当他大喊大叫、罗伯特不停地跳起来时，他只是为了那个笑点而存在的。

So when in episode two when he's, like, screaming and he's, like, Robert's jumping constantly, he was there for literally that joke.

就是说，有个家伙，你知道的，是个蝙蝠，用回声定位把罗伯特吓得够呛。

Like, that a guy was with you know, who was a bat is using echolocation and scaring the the shit out of Robert.

是的。

And yeah.

所以这个角色，当我们构建英雄阵容时，他基本上只是个空架子。

And so that that character specifically, basically, when we were building out, we need a roster of of of heroes, he was just, like, bare.

我们就说，好吧。

And we're like, okay.

把他抓过来。

Grab him.

看看我们能怎么用这个家伙。

Like, we'll see we'll see what we can do with this guy.

所以我们的所有角色都来自不同的地方。

So it was I mean, all of our characters kinda come from different places.

有时候是基于性格或原型，比如，我们需要一个自大的人。

Sometimes it comes from personality, an archetype, where it's like, oh, we need this, like, whatever, cocky person.

还不知道他的能力是什么。

Don't know what his powers are.

也不知道他有什么特别之处，但我们就想，好吧，我们需要这个，几乎就像一个叙事工具。

Don't know, you know, what makes him special, but, like, let's let's you know, we need this as, like, a a narrative device almost.

而且其中一些就是，嘿。

And and some of it is then just, hey.

你知道的，概念艺术家画了30个角色。

We you know, concept artists drew 30 characters.

我们喜欢这三个。

We like these three.

这些是我们最喜欢的。

These are our favorite.

然后你就随手拿起来想，如果这个就是棱镜的样子会怎样？

And then you just kinda pick them up and go, what if they you know, what if this is what prism looks like?

或者如果这个就是，你知道的，水男孩可能会是什么样子？

Or what if this is what, you know, what are whatever water boy could be?

这真的很有意思，而且我们有幸有足够长的时间，因为当时我们有一个版本可以慢慢琢磨，然后反复回来修改、推翻和重做。

It's it's really and we had the luxury of this taking a long time because because we had, like, one version of it to sort of sit with and then kinda revisit and change and rip out.

比如，在最初版本里，根本就没有Z队。

And for instance, like, in the original version, there was no z team.

在原始版本中，你登场时会拥有类似初始宝可梦的选择，比如你想要指导隐形伽吗？

In the original version, you show up and essentially have starter Pokemon of like, do you do you wanna mentor Invisigal?

你想要指导水男孩吗？

Do you wanna mentor Waterboy?

还是你想要指导威士忌先生，就是那个你到处都能看到的大橘猫？

Or do you wanna mentor mister Whiskey, which is like that big orange cat you see everywhere?

是的。

Yeah.

你只是做了一个选择，然后你的游戏就围绕着你选的那一个角色展开。

And you just chose, and then that was what your your game was, was you're just focused on on them alone.

有意思。

Interesting.

好的。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

然后在某个时候，我们讨论了游戏玩法和它的方向，意识到我们真的很喜欢这种模拟经营的感觉。

And so and then at some point, we were discussing gameplay and what it was gonna be, and we realized that we really like this, like, management sim thing.

它某种程度上感觉正是适合你所做内容的类型。

It sort of, like, felt like the right genre

是的。

Yeah.

对于你正在做的事情来说。

For for what you were doing.

在那时，我们需要九个角色。

And at that point, we needed, you know, nine characters.

所以一开始这确实让人望而生畏，但非常庆幸我们选择了这个方向。

So it was kind of honestly daunting at first, but really glad we we we went in that direction.

你们是如何选择角色原型和能力设定的？

How did you choose your archetypes and your power sets?

你们是不是这样想的：我们有这个人，很喜欢他，所以需要一个平衡的对立角色？

Were you're like were you like, oh, we have this person and we like them, so we need a counterbalance.

我们需要一个对立面。

We need an opposite.

比如，你们是如何构建一个平衡的角色阵容的，不仅要考虑角色类型和个性，还要考虑游戏机制。

Like, how do you go about building a balanced character roster, not only in terms of archetype and character, but also you have to think about the gameplay element as well.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得我们完全可以为自己出色的过程感到自豪，但说实话，整个过程其实相当随意。

I I I think I could we could take a lot of credit for doing you know, for having a great process, but really it was pretty pretty haphazard.

对，就是这样。

It was Yeah.

就像是，突然冒出一个笑话，然后想，如果这个角色是这样呢？

Like it it was just like, oh, here's a joke, and then what if this character is this?

如果这个角色是那样呢？

What if this character is that?

就像是，当然可以。

And it's like, sure.

是的。

Yeah.

好吧。

Fine.

然后我们以后再想办法。

And then we'll figure it out later.

就像，我们其实并没有认真规划，我记得今年夏天发布演示版时，有些角色我们甚至还不知道他们的能力是什么。

Like like, we didn't like, I don't think I remember for when we released the demo in this summer, some of the characters we didn't even actually know what their powers were at that time.

比如，如果有人问我，拳击手的能力是什么？

Like like, if you if someone had asked me, like, oh, what's what's punch ups?

他为什么这么厉害？

Why is he super?

我们也不知道。

We didn't know.

我们只知道，剧本里有一句，他被缩小了但力量变强了。

We just knew, like, there was a line in the script where he was he got shrunk and he's strong.

就这样了。

And, like, that was it.

好吧。

It's like, okay.

行。

Fine.

但这些在屏幕上该怎么表现呢？

But, like, how does that on screen manifest?

这能做什么？我们能怎么处理？

How does that what can we do?

所以，实际上，有些角色基本上就是在设计过程中才慢慢成型的。

And so so literally, some of these characters, was basically kind of, like, designing.

因为我们得在档案里写明他们的能力。

Because we have to put, like, in the dossier, you can see their powers.

它会告诉你他们的能力是什么。

It tells you what their powers are.

所以我们得把这些写下来。

So we had to, like, write that down.

但这恰恰说明了我们是多么注重角色塑造，超能力这些东西其实是后来才加上的。

But that just kinda speaks to, like, how character focused we are is, like, the super power stuff came, like, later.

你知道的。

You know?

那完全是最后才确定下来的。

It was, like, the last thing that that came together.

我猜在大多数超级英雄游戏或正在开发的IP中，这都是他们最先做的。

And I imagine that on most superhero games or IPs that are being developed, that's like the first thing they do.

你知道的。

You know?

所以是的。

So so yeah.

而且，就像，Malevola Prism 以前能打开传送门。

And like and like we were like like Malevola Prism used to do portals.

她以前是可以使用传送门的。

She used to have portals that she could do.

结果是她太过于强大了。

And what happened was she was so overpowered.

在游戏中，她实在太强了，我就想，算了，干脆把传送能力拿走，给 Malevola 吧。

Like she in the game play, she was so strong that like, we we I was just like, okay, let's just take the the teleport power and give it to Malevola.

她是个拿着剑的恶魔女士。

She's this demon lady with a sword.

然后这就导致大家都把她和漫威对手里的魔法，还有漫威宇宙里的角色作比较，这简直太搞笑了，因为你知道，你根本赢不了。

And then what act what what that meant is everyone started comparing her to magic from from Marvel rivals and, you know, from the Marvel universe, which is hilarious because it I you know, you can't win.

你知道吗？

You know?

这些早就有人做过了。

There's it's all been done before.

所以别听他们的。

So Just don't listen

别理他们。

to them.

是的。

Yeah.

你得尽量屏蔽外界声音，只希望你做出的足够多的决定是独特的，最终能汇聚成一些全新的东西。

You kinda just have to shut it out and just hope that enough of the decisions you make are unique and it'll turn into something new eventually.

所以你有这么多角色。

Did so you have all these characters.

你要管理他们的游戏玩法，管理他们的数据。

You're managing their gameplay, managing their data.

从数据角度来看，我对你们的选择结构非常感兴趣。

In terms of data, I'm really fascinated with your choices structure.

就像《行尸走肉》这类游戏，每集结束时都会显示数据，但当你完成整个游戏时，它会追踪一些内容——不过我们在这档播客里完全可以剧透。

Because like the Telltale games, you have the, you know, the data at the end of every episode, but when you finish the entire game, it's tracking stuff like and we can we can absolutely be spoilerific on this podcast.

这是暗示的。

It's it's implied.

但它在追踪你如何支持Invisigal。

But, you know, it's tracking how you support Invisigal.

它在追踪，你知道的，Robert如何回应他人。

It's tracking, you know, how does Robert respond to people.

我觉得我的角色是个普通人，因为我总是选择中间路线，比如，我不知道该说什么。

I think mine was, he was an everyman because I always picked the middle of the road option of like, I'm not sure what to say here.

天哪。

Oh gosh.

这也很奇怪。

This is also weird.

还有你做过的事情，它也会追踪，你知道的，你最常使用的英雄。

And, you know, things you did and it also tracks, you know, this was the hero you use the most.

比如，你在这一轮的表现超过了百分之多少的玩家。

Like, you did better than this percent of players on this round.

如果我拿到代码，仔细看看内部结构，我到底会看到什么样的设计？

If I, you know, get my hands on, like, dispatch the code and I, like, look under the hood, like, what am I looking at in terms of your structure?

我们可以说分支。

We can say branching.

不过现在‘分支’这个词含义太多了。

Branching means so many things now, though.

但在设计这个技术性叙事结构时，你是如何决定把选择点放在哪里的？

But when you were crafting that technical narrative design, how did you approach that in terms of where you put your choices?

你希望有什么样的选择？

What kind of choices you want?

哪些选择是小的，哪些又会产生重大的叙事影响，比如Invisible最后的结局？

What choices are small versus which ones have the big sort of narrative effects such as what happens to Invisible at the end?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我觉得这一切都始于编剧室里对核心主题的讨论，比如，故事的主题是什么？

I mean, I think it all starts with, you know, the the sort of the big sort of choices are are very just that starts in the writer's room of, like, what are the themes?

目标是什么？

What are the goals?

比如，你觉得什么听起来很酷？

Like, what, you know, what sounds cool?

比如，你知道的，什么样的事情会让人认真思考？

Like, when you you know, what sounds like an exciting thing to make someone sort of deliberate over?

至于隐形行动的部分，我们的初衷是这样。

And and then and then with the Invisigout stuff, it was the the intent.

说实话，我觉得在我们的初稿中，这一点更清晰。

And and to be honest, I feel like in our first draft, was much clearer.

我现在看到，当人们这样做的时候，我们其实是在剧透了。

I see I see right now, like, when people so that we're spoiling stuff.

对吧？

Right?

没关系。

It's fine.

是的。

Yeah.

没关系。

That's fine.

好的。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

当人们看到这个Invisigal的糟糕结局时，她出现在谋杀斗篷中，然后消失了。

When people get the this Invisigal breaks bad ending where she mur she basically appears in murder shroud and then disappears.

是的。

Yeah.

你得，你知道的，得表现得更好。

Well, you gotta, you know, gotta play better.

除非这正是你想要的。

Unless unless that's what you wanted.

我搞砸了，我搞砸了

I I fumbled I fumbled

追求她？

romancing her?

所以我把她和布莱泽都搞砸了。

So I fumbled both her and Blazer.

我最后谁也没得到。

I ended up with nobody.

而且数据显示，你和4%的人最终都是单身，这太搞笑了，因为确实你和4%的人最终都没人选。

And the stat was like, you and It so funny because it was like you and 4% of people ended up with no one.

我当时就想

And I was like

这真惨。

that's rough.

简直是在指责你。

Like, putting the indictment on you.

但是，你知道的

But, you know

不过，有点吧。

Kind of, though.

我太拼命想表现了，结果什么都没得到。

I was trying too hard to be a try hard, and I ended up with nobody, basically.

这挺有意思的。

Well, that's interesting.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，在这个对决的最初版本中，设定是不同的。

I mean, the the the goal was in the in the very first version of this, it was a different sort of setup in the showdown.

但有一个很明确的时刻，你无法接近隐形女，而她，是的。

But it was a very clear moment where you could not reach Invisigal, and she Yeah.

然后你只能和金发的布莱泽在一起，看着她向特鲁特靠近。

And you're stuck with, like, with with Blonde Blazer, and you're watching her approach Trout.

而且这一点非常明确，就是说，好吧。

And and it's very clear of, like, okay.

我们现在能做的就是看着她做出决定。

All we can do now is watch her make a decision.

她要么做出英雄般的举动，要么做出邪恶的选择。

And she'll either do something heroic or do something evil.

虽然我们转变的方式并不那么清晰，但一直以来的核心理念是，你不是在这里做选择，而是看着你所有选择的累积影响体现在这个人身上，现在她即将做出一个决定。

It's a little it's not as clean in kinda what what we shift, but the idea has all was always that instead of making a choice here, you're watching you're basically watching the sum of your choices, like, their impact on this person, and now they're gonna they're gonna make a choice.

这基本上就是Invisigal的核心创意：你的决定会影响其他角色，进而影响他们在这一关键时刻的行为，你应当能感受到这种影响。

And that was kind of the big pitch for Invisigal essentially is, like, yeah, like, what either the your decisions affect other characters and that affects their behavior in in this big pivotal moment, like, that you you should feel it.

所以，是的，我们确实。

So, yeah, we yeah.

在游戏上线时，有很多人，我们很难在没有足够数据的情况下测试这些内容。

We've there were a lot of people who when it when it launched, it's really hard for us to test this stuff until we get a bunch of data.

所以我们当时其实很清楚，我们对这个应用的预期是怎样的，比如各种比例分布，有多少人选择让她变好，有多少人选择让她变坏。

And so we were essentially, like, we knew what the intent was for the app for, like, the kind of percentage breakdowns and, like, how many people have her good and how many people have her bad.

然后游戏发布后，数据严重偏向，几乎90%的玩家都让她变得善良，这在我们看来简直就是个bug。

And then when it launched, it was really skewed to where, like, everybody it was, like, 90% of players, like, she was good, which is just, like that's basically a bug in our minds.

这太多了，根本没法这样调整。

Like, that's, like, that's, like, too many to tune that, essentially.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

这有点让人觉得奇怪，因为这涉及到故事的逻辑和结果。

Which is weird to think about because it's, like, story, like, logic and outcomes.

所以我们上线后几个小时就打了补丁。

But so then we patched it, like, couple hours after the game came out.

但所有让她变得善良的玩家都回去尝试其他结局，结果发现再也无法让她变善良了。

But all the people who got her to be good went back to go, like, try different endings, and they realized they couldn't get her to be good again.

也不是所有玩家，但有不少人这样。

Or, like, not all the people, but a bunch of people.

事实上，他们在游戏过程中根本不该让她变得善良。

And the reality is that that she should never should have been good in their playthrough.

但当时情况非常有趣，他们特别沮丧，因为我们改变了游戏，反而让他们的游戏体验变差了。

But it was such a it was such an interesting like, they were so upset, like, that we we, like, changed the game and made their game worse.

但事实上，根据他们的游戏方式，她变得糟糕其实也算是他们应得的。

But it's like the reality is, like, they kinda deserve her being bad, like, based on how they had played.

所以

So

这是一次奇怪而有趣的经历，让我们学到了如何修补叙事内容。

it's like a weird it's been a weird, interesting, like, learning experience, like, patching narrative.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

或者说，调整和微调这些叙事变量。

Or, like, tuning, tweaking those narrative variables.

但事实是，她变得糟糕不仅仅取决于过场动画中的选择，还取决于你在游戏中的实际玩法，这一点恐怕没人真正预料到。

But but the reality is She Breaks Bad not just based on decisions in the cinematics, but also how you play in the gameplay, which no one was, I think, was really expecting.

所以，这并不是玩家在玩整个赛季时会去考虑的事情。

So that wasn't, you know, it's not not something they're thinking about as they're playing across the season.

但现在这已经广为人知了。

But now it's kind of out there.

人们知道，你如何玩这些东西会影响她的命运，是的。

People know that that how you play that stuff changes, yeah, what happens with her.

我觉得这太有趣了。

I think that's so fascinating.

所谓的‘buggy叙事’可能不是准确的说法，但它确实体现了那种需要平衡的感觉。

The bugging bugging maybe a bugging narrative is not the right term, but it speaks to like, revisiting it speaks to, you know, you you want that that balance.

作为玩家，当你在设计带有系统性元素或选择机制的内容时，你不希望他们看到背后的机制。

Like, you don't as a player, when you're writing something that has some kind of systemic element since some kind of choice, you don't want them to see the mechanism.

对吧？

Right?

你不希望他们看到幕后的操作者。

You don't want them to see the man behind the curtain.

你希望他们做出自然的选择，从而提升游戏的持久性和重玩价值。

You want them to make the make the organic choices and then, you know, try in terms of, you know, longevity and replay.

回去再玩一次，看看他们能否达成所有结局。

Go back, play again, and see if they can get all of the endings.

我记得玩《边境封印》是我最喜欢的Telltale游戏，实际上。

I remember playing Tales from the Borderlands is probably my favorite Telltale game, actually.

我非常喜欢《边境封印》。

I loved I loved Tales from the Borderlands.

我觉得它很棒。

I thought it was great.

而且，我本身并不是个狂热的《边境封印》粉丝，但它处理这个IP的方式，我觉得非常出色。

And again, not a huge Borderlands fan, but the way it dealt with the IP, I thought was really excellent.

但当时我并不是。

But at the time, I was not.

现在我在为他们工作。

Now I work for them.

但那种为了看到所有不同结局和事情可能发展的各种方式而重玩的想法，我觉得是Telltale风格中非常有趣的一点。

But the idea that you would replay to see all of the different outcomes and all of the different ways things could fall out I think was something really interesting in the Telltale style.

但从调度的角度来看，作为一名设计师，我能理解其中的部分机制，但看不到完整的机制。

But in terms of dispatch, as a designer, I can kind of see the mechanism, but I can't see the entire mechanism.

我觉得这非常有趣，因为你一边进行对话，

And I think that's really interesting because you have this dialogue stuff while

你以为这是

you think it's

一种游戏玩法。

a gameplay.

是的。

Yeah.

因为我的意思是，哦，

Because I mean oh,

对。

yeah.

大多数人对此感到沮丧。

Most people are frustrated by it.

他们就是只想让我直接告诉他们具体该做什么。

They just they're just like, just tell me exactly what I need to do.

我就说：得了吧。

And I'm like, just come on.

迟早会有一个维基页面的。

There's gonna be a Wiki page eventually.

让我们活在这种未知里吧。

Let's let's live in this unknown.

我喜欢这种感觉，我的意思是，确实是这样。

I like I like that it's, I mean, it's yeah.

这是一种情况，作为设计师或者创意工作者，你会想：我不希望你知道。

That it's it is one of those things where it's like as a designer or as a, like, a creative, you're like, I I don't want you to know.

当人们在做选择时犹豫不决，这简直让我眼睛直跳。

I want you to just like, and when people pause when the choices are up, that kinda, like, it makes my my eye twitch.

关键是，你本就应该在有限的时间内做出决定。

Like, the point is that you're supposed to just make a decision in the limited amount of time you have.

你知道的。

You know?

是的。

Yeah.

或者当主播们在第四集末尾选择某个选项时，会选一条分支。

Or or when streamers will, like, choose the you know, something at the end of episode four, it'll pick a branch.

然后他们立刻去YouTube看另一条分支，只是为了说：我想知道一切。

And then they'll immediately go watch the other branch on YouTube just to be like, I wanna know I wanna know everything.

于是他们会根据更喜欢的内容改变自己的选择，这完全违背了我希望玩家做的。

So then and then they'll change their decision based on what they like more, which is so, like, the opposite of what I would want for somebody.

但另一方面，如果他们玩得开心，这就是他们想玩的方式，我能说什么呢？

But also, it's like, if they're enjoying the game and this is how they wanna play, like, what am I gonna say?

就像当我们发布这个游戏时，它就交到他们手中了，现在这是他们的东西了。

Like, it's this is this is this is like when we release this, it, like, kinda turns over to them, and it's now their thing.

所以是的。

So Yeah.

这很有趣。

It's it's interesting.

这整个讨论就是关于，当你把一件艺术作品发布到世界上时，它就不再属于你了。

It's the it's the whole conversation about, you know, when you release a piece of art into the world, it's no longer yours.

它属于每个人。

Like, it belongs to everyone.

我玩《Dispatch》的方式是，我们一群人一起玩，然后我们会像读书会一样讨论它。

I I the way that I played dispatch was, you know, a bunch of us were playing it, and then we would book club it.

我们会玩完之后聊聊。

We would talk about it after.

就是这样我才知道的，我当初在玩Invisigal时完全搞错了，因为大家都问我：你是在亲吻时靠向她还是远离她？

That's how I learned that's how I learned I was fumbling Invisigal because everyone asked me, well, did you lean into or out of her kiss?

我当时说：还有亲吻？

And I was like, there's a kiss?

我啥都没注意到。

I didn't get shit.

所以那时我渐渐意识到，哦，我正走向孤独。

So that's when I kind of knew, oh, I'm on the path to loneliness.

在这场游戏结束时，我最终会孤身一人。

I'm gonna end up with nobody at the end of this game.

但我认为这就是对话会发生的方式。

But I think that's the dialogue that happens.

你知道吗？

You know what?

是我自己。

It's me.

我忠实地扮演了真实的自己。

I played it true to myself.

但你在游戏之外，比如与社区、与游戏外的人交流时，我认为或许是因为行业的发展、玩家的变化，才有了这种想法：我想看到一切。

But the dialogue that you have, you know, outside, like, with the community, with, like, outside the game, I think maybe the way that, you know, the industry has gone, the way that gamers have gone, it's this idea of, well, I wanna be able to see everything.

但你想想《博德之门3》这样的游戏，体量大得不可思议，除非你花数千小时去玩所有不同的分支情况。

But then you think of games like Baldur's Day three that are so impossibly large, like, unless you spend thousands of hours playing all of the different edge cases.

深入所有边缘情况，你也无法看到全部内容，我认为这正是这类游戏的美妙之处，也是我们能够通过分支叙事实现的美妙之处。

Into into all of the edge cases, you will not see everything, which I think is the beauty of something like that, which I think is the beauty of what we can do with branching.

是的。

Yeah.

我就是那种喜欢在《XCOM》中玩铁人模式的人，哦，我的角色死了。

And and I'm and I'm kind of the, like, the kind of person who plays, like, XCOM on Iron Man and, like, oh, my character's dead.

即使角色状态一团糟，我也不会重新加载存档。

I'm, you know, not reloading that save even though they're a mess character.

我总是给自己设定一些愚蠢的规则。

Like, I'm, like I, like, kind of enforce stupid things on myself.

更多是因为我觉得这样能让体验变得更独特、更刺激。

More because I just think it makes the experience more unique and exciting.

我不确定。

And like I don't know.

就像，我也明白，我不希望强迫别人做他们不想做的事。

It's like, it's just like but but I I also understand that I'm that I don't wanna like make other people do things they don't wanna do.

所以对于《调度》这款游戏，对我来说真正独特的是，这是我第一次，我上一款游戏是《边境传说》，那是十年前的事了。

So it's definitely I think with dispatch, what was really unique for me was this is the first time like, the last game I made was tales from the borderlands, so it's, ten years ago.

哇。

Wow.

上一款，是的。

The last yeah.

我知道。

It's I know.

这真让人沮丧。

It's it's depressing.

在Telltale公司花了十年时间制作了四十多集之后，十年没发布一款游戏，这简直不可思议。

After after making, like, shipping, like, 40 something episodes at Telltale over ten years, like, not shipping a game for ten is crazy.

但是

But

我非常能理解。

I have a lot of empathy.

那时候，是的。

Back then Yeah.

直播还没那么流行

Streaming wasn't as big of

对。

No.

确实没那么流行。

It wasn't.

对。

No.

确实没那么流行。

It wasn't.

什么？

What?

所以那时我们还得讨论这个话题，你会去看主播的直播。

So it so it was it was still a thing we had to talk about and you would watch streamers.

但十年后，我们基本上是把游戏设计成对主播友好的，主动去接纳他们，而不是像当年那样排斥他们——那时候人人都觉得，这些主播玩我们的游戏，实际上是在毁掉游戏体验，导致很多人不再愿意购买游戏。

But, like, ten years later, it's like, we basically built the game to be streamer friendly and, like, to give them like, it was it was a strategy to adopt this instead of, like, like, rebuke it, which was kind of everyone was was back in the day, like, you know, these streamers are are playing our games and basically ruining it for so many people because now those people aren't gonna buy the game.

而且当时这还是一个非常有争议的话题。

And and it was a it was a very, like, controversial topic back then.

但现在，我们根本不可能阻止他们直播。

But now it's like, there's no way we're gonna stop them from streaming.

没错。

Like Right.

皮埃尔前几天就提到过，你不能在Twitch上直播电视剧或电影，但你可以直播我们的游戏，而我们的游戏本质上就像一个互动式的电视剧。

It's effectively the only like, Pierre pointed this out the other day, like, that you can't stream TV or movies on Twitch, but you can stream our game, which is essentially an interactive TV show.

所以这对创作者来说是一件很棒的事，他们能够以这种独特的方式观看并与自己的社群互动。

So it's kind of this, like, awesome thing for creators to be able to, like like, watch and engage with their community with this very unique type of thing.

每周固定的更新节奏也为主播们建立了固定的播出安排。

And the the weekly cadence creates a schedule for the streamer.

但我觉得，或者更准确地说，我没预料到的是，这种每周的讨论会从宏观层面改变玩家的玩法。

It but it but the the weird downside of it, I think or not downside, but the thing that I didn't anticipate is all of the discourse week to week would change how people played, like, on a meta level.

哦。

Like Oh.

在第二集结尾，你会发现金发侠客有了男朋友。

At the end of episode two, you know, you find out Blond Blazer has a boyfriend.

我们本来觉得这只是一个有趣的小小转折。

We thought that was just a fun little bump and, like, a little twist.

这彻底摧毁了她在很多人眼中的信誉。

That, like, destroyed her credibility for so many people.

我觉得，如果他们能直接玩第三集，而不是被迫等待，事情就不会这么极端了。

And I think I think if they could just play episode three instead of having to wait, they it wouldn't have been as extreme as it was.

但社区里的人会去其他直播间传播，比如‘她现在对我来说已经死了’。

But, like, the community, like, they join other streams to spread, like, you know you know, you know, she's dead to me now.

每周看到他们如何聚集起来并传播这种叙事，真的很有意思。

Like, you know, it was so interesting week to week seeing, like, how they would all kind of, like, coalesce and and sort of spread the narrative.

是的。

So yeah.

我们通过观察人们玩游戏学到了很多东西。

Well, we learned a lot watching people play the game.

对此我们无能为力，因为大部分内容都已经录好了。

There's nothing we could do about it because it was all, you know, mostly in the can already.

但是

But

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

在你们直播时，哪些内容还没确定下来？

Of of what was what was not in the can when you went live?

比如，当你们亲眼看着这一切发生时，还有哪些东西需要你们继续处理？

Like, what did you still have to have to work with while while you were watching all of this happen in front of you?

是的。

Yeah.

所以每周我们都会在周三早上九点发布一集，同时我们也在紧锣密鼓地制作下一周的剧集。

So every week so every week, we'd launch an we'd launch an episode on a Wednesday at nine in the morning, and we were also working we were basically closing the next week's, like, episode.

所以我们一直在继续工作。

So we were still still working.

我的意思是，虽然已经完成了85%到90%，但我们几乎整个时间段都在赶工。

I mean, it was, like, 90%, 85% of the way there, but we essentially never we were crunching for, like, you know, that entire time.

所以这真的让人觉得天哪。

So it was hard to, like you're like, oh my god.

大家都在玩这个游戏。

Everyone's playing the game.

太好玩了。

It's so much fun.

他们玩得非常开心。

Like, they're having a great time.

与此同时，我们还有这么多bug，游戏根本跑不起来，连PS5都支持不了，简直就像在四周内同时发布四款游戏一样压力山大。

Meanwhile, I've got, you know, we've got all these bugs, just, you know, it's totally busted, it's not running on PS five, like so so it was like super, super stressful, basically shipping four games in four weeks.

越接近结尾，所需的工作量就越大。

And the closer you get to the end, the like the more work it needed.

第八集简直是个怪物。

So like episode eight was, it's a monster.

这集内容非常庞大，有很多情节展开，还有很多临终前才加入的音效。

It's a really big episode with a lot of things going on, a lot of sound effects and stuff that were coming in at the last minute.

所以当时真是疯狂极了。

So it was pretty crazy.

我当然不希望再这样了，我只是想做得更好一点，比如在观看时能让它更完善。

And certainly wouldn't wanna I just wanna do that part better, like, have have it more finished by the time I'm watching.

但它确实让我们有机会调整一些细节，比如这些人物关系——比如，我想我还没在其他地方说过这一点。

But it did allow us to tweak things of, like, oh, these relationships like, for instance, I haven't I don't think I've said this anywhere.

但最初的设计是，如果你杀了阴影，而你又在追求金发火焰，她最终就不会亲你。

But, like, the original design was if you kill Shroud and you're romancing Blonde Blazer, she would not kiss you in the end.

哦。

Oh.

有一个场景，如果你在追求她，他们之间会有一个浪漫的时刻，他们会接吻。

There's a scene that if you're romancing her, they kind of, like, have, like, a romantic moment they kiss.

而且很符合她的性格，我觉得你们在刚杀了人之后，不会真的在那里热吻吧。

And sort of, like, true to her character, it's like, I don't think you guys are making out after, you know, you just murdered somebody.

你们刚杀了一个人。

You just murdered somebody.

你知道的。

You know?

是的。

Yeah.

所以，这正是我们原本的意图。

So so that's what what the intent was.

问题是，Blazer阵营的玩家数量较少，经常被忽视，比如在一些场景中，Invisigal得到了很多关注。

The problem was Blazer folks were getting kind of they were the minority, and they were constantly kinda getting shafted, like in scenes where, like, Invisigal was getting a lot of love.

Blazer总是吃亏，这一点我们注意到，玩家也都在谈论和认可。

Blazer was kinda getting the short end of the stick and it was something we were seeing people notice and acknowledge.