与 Circuit Break 和 James Lewis 探讨工程职业

哎呀，天哪。

Oh, man.

这挺有意思的。

That that that's interesting.

我之前真不知道你还有这段经历，Chris。因为我毕业时面试过的一个工作就是在奥斯汀半导体，也就是三星半导体。

I didn't realize that about you, Chris, because one of my one of the jobs I interviewed for out of school was at Austin semi Austin Samsung Semiconductor.

对。

Yeah.

是三星奥斯汀半导体，因为你刚才拼的那个缩写听起来就是“屁股”的意思。

It's Samsung Austin Semiconductor because what you just spelled would be ass.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

但SASS是个很常见的缩写，是的。

But sass is a very common yes.

所以三星奥斯汀半导体，对。

So Samsung Austin semi yes.

那个，对。

That yeah.

那挺有意思的。

That's interesting.

对。

Yeah.

你知道，这真的，硅片加工，超酷，很棒的体验。

It you know, it's really so like, silicon processing, super cool, such a cool experience.

我很喜欢我的同事们。

I love my coworkers.

我还跟很多韩国同事一起工作过。

I got to work with a bunch of people in Korea.

我有机会去了韩国七个月，每次待七周。

I got to visit Korea for seven months seven weeks each other.

非常棒的经历。

Super great experience.

工作条件非常非常非常糟糕。

Terrible terrible terrible working conditions.

比如在《Amp Hour》节目里，我们聊过台积电现在在亚利桑那州遇到的一些问题，他们想开新的芯片厂，但文化冲突很明显，台湾员工习惯九九六工作制，而亚利桑那的工程师直接说不行。

Like, on the Amp Hour, we talked about, like, some of the stuff t m c TSMC's running into right now with moving to Arizona and, like, all the they're trying to open a new chip fab and just, the culture clash of, you know, Taiwan people that work, like, nine nine six and, like, Arizona engineers were, like, no.

我对此深有体会。

And and I felt that, like, in my bones.

你知道吗？

You know?

这是真的。

It's it's real.

很酷的经历。

Cool experience.

不推荐，真的不推荐。

Do not do not recommend.

对。

Yeah.

我的天，哦。

My my how oh.

很快说一下。

Real quick.

你待了多久

How long were

克里斯，你在那儿待了多久？

you there for, Chris?

我在那儿待了大概两年，不到两年。

I was there about about two years, a little bit less than two years.

而且我是待得最久的人之一，除了那些打算长期干下去的人。我觉得，在我们这批入职的人里，大概20%是打算长期干的，然后还有很大一部分，大概40%的人，一年之内就走了。

And I was one of the ones that stayed the longest, except for The lifers, I would say, probably, of the starting class, probably 20% are lifers, and then probably they had a pretty significant like, probably 40% were gone within a year.

挺辛苦的。

Rough.

对。

Yeah.

我大学毕业后在俄克拉荷马州的一家石油天然气公司，管道公司工作，因为基本上，他们是最早回复我简历的人。

I I I worked for an oil and gas company, a pipeline company in Oklahoma after college because it was like basically, it was like the first people who would, like, respond to my resume.

所以我在俄克拉荷马州埃尔克城做现场仪表电子技术员，那地方在德克萨斯狭长地带附近，算是荒郊野外。

So And I was a instrumentation electronics technician out in the field up in Elk City, Oklahoma, which is in, like, the middle of nowhere near, like, the Texas Panhandle.

其实去现场干活还不错。

That was, yeah, that was going out to The field stuff was actually not bad.

我真的很喜欢。

I actually liked it a lot.

就是得应付公司文化，我不太喜欢。

It was having to deal with because I was like the only It was like the company culture, I guess, I didn't really like.

他们总是说，如果你吃苦耐劳，我们就会在塔尔萨大楼给你安排个办公室工作，你就能成为真正的工程师，他们就是这么说的。

It was was, like, oh, if you put your hard knocks in, we'll get you a desk job at the Tulsa Building and you can be a real engineer, was like the term they used.

我当时就想，算了吧。

And I was like, nah.

所以我在那儿待了五个月，然后就搬回休斯顿了。

So I was there for five months and then I moved back down to Houston.

不过，我确实学到了很多关于现场工作的东西。

So, but I did learn a lot about just fieldwork.

其实，现场工作是我最喜欢的，但为了去压缩机站按个开关，来回要开六个小时的车，那天可真是够呛。

I actually, fieldwork was like my favorite thing, but having to drive six hours to go to a compressor station just to flip a switch and then drive six hours back, that was a lot of fun that day.

兄弟，你需要物联网。

Son, you need IoT.

对。

Yeah.

不。

No.

问题就在于物联网那部分出故障了。

That was the problem is the IoT part of it went down.

我知道。

I know.

我知道。

I know.

对。

Yeah.

你总是需要一个备用手指来重置原来的物联网设备。

You always need the backup finger that resets the original IoT.

这就是你需要的。

That's what you need.

没错。

Exactly.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

所以，是的。

So yeah.

那是一份挺有意思的工作。

It was an interesting job.

就是那种要穿兔子服的工作。

It was where you you were wearing bunny suits.

我每天都穿着防火服，防火等级是FR2。

I was wearing f r two fire resistance every day.

还得戴安全帽。

So hard hats.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得我那份工作空调好多了。

Mine was much more air conditioned, I think.

不是。

No.

是挺热的，但也没那么糟糕。

It was hot, but it was it wasn't too bad.

公司配的车。

Company vehicle.

所以，詹姆斯，你说你去SAS面试了。

So So, James, you said you you interviewed at SAS.

那你最后去了哪里？

So where where'd you end up?

对。

Yeah.

所以我最后在奥斯汀的安捷伦做应用工程师，有意思的是，前一年我还在戴尔的服务器部门实习，当时特别讨厌那份工作。

So I I ended up as a application engineer for Agilent based in Austin, which the interesting thing was the year before, I was interning at Dell in the server group and absolutely hated what I was doing.

对。

Yeah.

朗德罗克。

Round Rock.

朗德

Round

罗克。

Rock.

福禄克罗克。

Fluke Rock.

对。

Yeah.

而且我对团队的工作状态真的很不满意，因为团队里每个人都有价值六位数或七位数的股票期权，所以他们都不怎么努力工作。

And I really wasn't happy with what I was doing in terms of my team because everybody on my team had stock options that were all worth six or seven digits, so they didn't really work very hard.

当我在实验室和供应商交流时，

As I

我问别人还有什么其他工程类的工作，当时跟我聊天的一个人来自惠普，他是逻辑分析仪的应用工程师。

was talking to vendors in the lab, I was asking people what other engineering jobs are there and one of the people I was talking to was from, at the time, HP and he was the application engineer for their logic analyzers.

他跟我详细讲了他的工作，说这工作多酷，还建议我考虑类似的方向，我当时就觉得，这真的很酷。

He told me all about his job and why it was cool and why I should think about something like that and I was like, That's really cool.

我也想找一份这样的工作。

I'd love to get a job like that.

结果他刚升职搬离了奥斯汀，所以第二年，他们就雇我接替了他的职位。

It turns out he had just gotten promoted and moved away from Austin so the following year, they hired me for his job.

所以我真的得到了那份工作。

So I literally got the job.

我当时说，真希望我也能有份这样的工作。

I said, I wish I could get a job like that.

哇。

Wow.

而且我相信，其他人肯定也会有完全一样的经历。

And and everybody else, I'm sure, will have the exact same experience.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Precisely.

不过那确实挺棒的。

That is that is pretty awesome, though.

对。

Yeah.

不过关于这件事，我想说的是，我觉得自己真的很幸运，能和一个不是传统工程师的人聊过，我们之前聊过传统工程师。

The one thing I wanted to say about that though is that was, I feel like I got really lucky that I talked to somebody other than a, we were talking about traditional engineers earlier.

我完全不知道有应用工程这样的职位，或者像现场应用工程师，负责产品的售前或售后支持。

I had no idea about something like application engineering or in this case a field application engineer doing either pre or post sales support of a product.

对于测试设备来说，我觉得支持设备的工作内容挺明显的。

Now, in the case of test equipment, I think it's pretty obvious the kinds of stuff you can do to support equipment.

但后来我发现，你也可以做组件或系统级别的应用工程师，各种领域都有。

But then later on I found you could be an application engineer for components or system level stuff for all kinds of things.

我觉得这条路有时候被忽视了，因为很多人觉得那只是销售。

And I think that sometimes gets overlooked as an engineering path simply because it's, I think a lot of people think of it as just sales.

虽然这里面确实有销售成分，但在我职业生涯的头一段，我基本上还是专注于技术方面的。

And while there's definitely a sales component to it, sort of, especially for the first part of my career, really stuck to the technical side of it.

很长一段时间，我甚至没法告诉别人整套系统要花多少钱。

For a long time I couldn't even tell people what a total system would cost.

我完全不知道。

I had no idea.

我对那些一点兴趣都没有。

I was not interested in any of that.

但有意思的是，我毕业后的第一份工作，我原以为会整天坐在电脑前用Allegro或OrCAD画图，结果却开着车到处跑，几乎每天都要跟不同的公司打交道。

But it was just interesting to me that my first job out of school was I thought I was going to sit behind a desk and play an Allegro or OrCAD all day and instead I drove around a car and talked to a different company almost every day.

那真的很酷。

That's really cool.

我刚毕业那会儿是2009年，那时候我只要能找到工作就行，然后就去了休斯顿一家做油气传感器的公司，主要是做燃气轮机之类的振动传感器。

Right out of school, I it was 2009, and at that point, I was just looking for anything I could get and hopped over to a company in in Houston that did oil and gas sensors, mainly vibration sensors for gas turbines and things of that sort.

我一开始是以硬件设计工程师的身份被招进去的，但说实话，在那里并没有做太多硬件设计，不是因为他们不信任我，而是因为他们的设计周期太长了，而且有大量老设备，所以他们其实并没有在开发多少新东西。

And I was originally hired on as a hardware design engineer, but frankly didn't end up doing a lot of hardware design there, not because they didn't trust me, but just because their design cycles were so long and they had tons of legacy equipment that they just didn't weren't really designing a whole lot of stuff.

所以我真的在生产制造上花了很多时间。

So I I really got a ton of time with manufacturing.

我很少坐在办公桌前。

I was I was very rarely at my desk.

我几乎总是在车间里，要么修理出问题的制造流程，要么改进流程。

I was almost always on the floor doing something with fixing whatever manufacturing process was messed up or improving the processes.

所以，我觉得那真的是一次很棒的经历，因为首先，我对里面的电子设备一无所知。

So it was really, I feel like that was a really fantastic experience because first of all, knew nothing about any of the electronics going into it.

我不知道他们在做什么。

I knew nothing about what they were doing.

我当时就想，太好了，这些人愿意给我一份工作。

I was just like, great, these people wanna give me a job.

到最后，我积累了很多经验，比如我们脑子里有个想法，想把它真正造出来，想建一条装配线，一天生产一百个。

And by the end of it, I had a ton of experience with, we have a a thing in our mind and we wanna actually get it built and we wanna make an assembly line and we wanna make a 100 of them a day.

我们到底该怎么做？

How do we actually do it?

那真是太棒了。

That was it was it was fantastic.

但四年下来，我觉得这不太适合我。

But by the end of four years, I was kind of it just wasn't right for me.

后来我有点厌倦了，就决定去做别的事情。

Ended up getting fairly sick of it and just decided to go off and do something else.

我正想问你，你不喜欢它哪一点？或者四年结束后，你为什么决定离开？

Was actually going to ask you what did you not like about it or at the end of that four years, why did you decide to move on?

之前我们聊到

Earlier when we were

你当初为什么进入这个行业时，我提到过，我在高中就开始做音频电子，那才是我真正进入电子领域、去读电气工程学位的原因。

talking about why did you get into school, I started doing audio electronics back in high school and that was really the whole reason why I even got into electronic or went to get my double E degree.

而且我一直想进入那个行业。

And it was always my intent to make my way into that industry.

我当时在石油天然气行业工作，虽然还行，但总体来说挺无聊的。

And I was working in oil and gas, which was fine, but it was just generally boring.

而且进入音频电子行业非常难，因为竞争太激烈了，机会也不多。

And getting into audio electronics is incredibly difficult because it's just super competitive and there's not a lot of opportunities out there.

所以我就说，你知道吗？

So I said, you know what?

我就自己干。

I'll just do it.

我就自己想办法实现。

I'll just make it happen.

所以我离开了那家公司，自己创业做音频电子。

So I left that company in the first place and started my own business doing audio electronics.

我觉得找这方面的工作太难了。

Just I figured it was so hard to find a job doing it.

那我就自己创造一份工作，结果做了好几年，真的很有意思。

I'll just build a job doing it and ended up doing that for a handful of years, which was really a lot of fun.

对。

Yeah.

所以我们大家都不再做原来的工作了。

So we all had we're not doing our original jobs anymore.

对。

No.

这正好可以聊到换工作的话题。

This is a good segue into changing jobs.

比如，换工作的好理由和坏理由。

Like, good good and bad reasons to change jobs.

对我来说，比如I和E的工作，我想做真正的工程工作。

Like, for me, that I and E jobs, like I wanted to do actual engineering work.

我不想当现场技术员，也不想等两年才转岗。

I didn't wanna be a technician out in the field and I wasn't gonna wait two years to do that.

然后我找到了一个招聘信息，挺有意思的，是在那个网站上，真希望那个网站还在。

And I found a job post funny enough, like on the, I wish they still existed.

Adafruit在2011、2012年左右有个招聘板块。

Adafruit had a job board around, like, 2011, 2012 era.

对，我就是用那个找到的工作。

And, yeah, I used that and found a job.

我得以搬回休斯顿。

I was able to move back down to Houston.

但那主要是因为我没有在做自己想做的事。

But that that was mostly I wasn't doing what I wanted to do.

我上学学的是嵌入式系统设计，结果却在画接线图、拉电缆。

I went to school for embedded system design, and I was drawing wiring diagrams and pulling cables.

但想想看

But think about

你的前臂变得多结实啊。

how strong your forearms were getting.

对吧？

You know?

等等等等，等一下。

But but but wait.

你整天都在弄汽车的电线线路系统，那其实就是画图。

You work on car wires wiring systems all the time, which is just drawing.

我读完了整个通用（手册）。

I read the whole common.

我可以选择要不要做那个，而且不用担心吃饭问题。

I can choose if I wanna do that or not and not have to worry about food.

我觉得在我的职业生涯中有两次，我为了当时认为很有道理的理由而跳槽，但事后回想起来，那真的很傻，就是为了钱。

So I think I think there was twice in my career that I I moved for, at the time, a reason I thought made a lot of sense but in retrospect I realized it was really silly and it was money.

有两份工作我完全是冲着薪水更高去的，我忽略了很多危险信号。其中一份工作，我进去之前就有人提醒我，说我会发现周围同事的水平跟我习惯的不一样，结果我第二天就发现了，而且没过几个月我就开始找别的工作，因为我知道自己犯了个错误。

There were two jobs I took, 100% because I could get paid more money and I overlooked so many red flags that in one job I was even warned before I went in that I was told I was going to look around and realize that the caliber of people I was surrounded by wasn't the same as I was used to and I realized that on day two and it was only within a few months I started looking for something else because I knew that I had made a mistake.

我发现，确实有时候为了钱换工作是合理的，但如果这是你唯一的主要动机，我真的会怀疑你即将接受的工作是否真的合适。

What I found is yes there are certain times when changing jobs because of money makes sense but if that is your only and primary motivator I would really question if whatever you're about to take really makes sense.

这不能成为你换工作的唯一理由。

It it it can't be the only reason you change jobs.

对。

Yeah.

这观点挺有意思的，因为我确实经历过，也听别人这么说过。

That's a that's a interesting point because I've certainly experienced this and have been been told this for sure.

但如果你想大幅加薪，大多数情况下，换工作是个好办法。

But if you're looking to get a significant pay bump, most of the time, that changing jobs is a good way of doing that.

不过我也同意。

But I I agree.

如果那是你主要的动力，你很容易就踏进一个你不想要的环境。

If that's your your primary motivator, you can very easily step in in something you don't want to.

对。

Yeah.

我希望，你知道，我们想聊的话题之一就是我们希望当初能知道的事情，而我第一次换工作的时候完全是运气好。

I wish you know, one of the things on on our list of things to talk about is things we wish we would have known, and I got completely lucky when I made my first job move.

那是因为我工作生活平衡很差，一切都糟透了。

It was because I I had a bad working life balance and just everything was everything was rough about it.

而且我当时做的不是电子相关的工作。

And I wasn't working on electronics.

对吧？

Right?

我当时是化学工程师，工艺工程师，虽然有意思，但那不是我想做的。

It was I was a chemical engineer, process engineer, which is interesting, but not what I wanted to do.

然后我在Keith Lee工作的朋友告诉我有个职位空缺，还帮我搞清楚该学什么才能顺利通过面试流程之类的，真的帮了大忙。

And and my buddy who worked at Keith Lee told me about an opening and help help me figure out what I should be studying in order to kinda get through get through the process and stuff like that, which is really helpful.

我接受那份工作，是因为那是唯一能抓住的机会，就像，说实话，真的没办法了。

And I took it because it was just the only thing that was, like, grasping for like, literal okay.

要不这样？

How about this?

我是唯一一个在二月份从德克萨斯州的奥斯汀搬回俄亥俄州的克利夫兰的人。

I am the only person who has ever moved from Austin, Texas back to Cleveland, Ohio in February.

这是唯一一次，我是历史上唯一一个这么干过的人。

That is the only that is the only I'm the only person who's ever done that ever in history.

所以你就知道我有多绝望了。

So that's how desperate I was.

但最棒的一点是，如果非要我说是什么让我成功的话，那就是我每天要和三十、二十、25个模拟电子工程师一起工作。

But the thing that was wonderful about it and the thing that I if I would've if I could point to one thing that made me successful because of it, it was because I was going to work with thirty, twenty, 25 analog engineers, like, working on analog electronics.

我当时就想，天哪。

And I was like, oh my god.

如果我能再来一次，如果我能再那样做，我每次给建议都会说，职业生涯初期一定要尽可能多地这样做。

If I could point to that if I could do that again, if I and every time I get give advice, it's just like, do that as much as possible at the beginning of your career.

对吧？

Right?

就是尽可能多找聪明的人一起工作。

Just find as many smart people as you can to work around.

如果你这样做，钱迟早会来的。

And and if you do that, the money will come at some point.

可能不是马上，但如果你能积累这些经验，那就像重新上学一样。

It might not be right at that point, but, man, if you can just load up on it was like it was going back to school.

基本上，那就算我的研究生学位了。

Basically, that was my graduate degree.

我在Keith Lee工作那段时间，是我最接近拿到研究生学位的一次经历，和那些中西部聪明人一起工作，真的挺好的。

That's the closest I've ever come to a graduate degree is working at Keith Lee and, yeah, working with those those those nice those nice Midwestern smarty pants that I used to work with.

所以我想接着这个话题说，虽然我们还没到聊那些我希望早知道的事情，但我想把它和身边要有聪明的工程师，特别是模拟工程师联系起来。

So I I wanna I wanna dovetail that because I know we're not quite to the point where we're talking about things I wish or would have known but relate it to surround yourself by smart engineers especially analog.

我记得我跟一个人聊过，他不是我正式的导师，但我心里已经把他当成导师了。

I remember I was talking to not an official mentor of mine but somebody I'd kind of like said okay I'm gonna use him as a mentor.

我说，某某某是个非常厉害的工程师，但他太难沟通了，因为他太粗鲁、太生硬了。然后我的那个准导师告诉我，他已经学会忽略这些，只管从他身上学东西。

I said you know so and so is a really brilliant engineer but he is so impossible to talk to because he's just so rude and gruff and whatever and my mentor, my pseudo mentor told me he's learned to look past that and just learn from him.

我不是说要忍受那些品行不好的人，我只是觉得有时候你得忽略一个人的性格，去听那些你真正能学到的东西。这是我做得不够的地方，我希望整个职业生涯中能做得更多。

And I'm not saying put up with people that are terrible people, just I think one thing is to sometimes you have to look past a person's personality and listen to the things that you can actually learn from them and that's something that I didn't do enough of but I wish I had done more of throughout my career.

很多时候，他们的性格会让我不想去向他们学习，这真的很傻，因为有很多这样的人，你能从他们身上学到很好的工程知识。

Too many times their personality would stop me from wanting to learn from them and that was very silly because there's lots of those people that you can learn good engineering stuff from.

从某种程度上说，你也能从他们身上学到人际交往的技巧，因为你只需要

In some ways, can also learn people skills from them because you just sort of

别做他们不做的事。

not Do whatever they don't do.

对，没错。

Yeah, exactly.

好的。

Okay.

你知道这事儿好笑在哪儿吗？

You know what's funny about that?

我其实因为那样的人拒绝过一份工作。

I actually turned down a job because of an individual like that.

有一次我去面试一份工作，当时觉得肯定会特别酷。

I once had an interview for a job that I thought was gonna be super cool.

我面试了，大概一个月里电话面试了三次，然后他们把我飞过去，现场面试从早上九点开始，一直到晚上九点我才回到酒店。

I interviewed, I think three times over the phone across a month, and then they flew me out there and my in person interview started at nine in the morning and I didn't get back to my hotel until nine at night.

我跟十个不同的工程师面了试。

I interviewed with 10 different engineers.

我还跟好几个不同的部门以及公司的CEO面了试。

I interviewed with multiple different departments and the CEO of the company.

那份工作听起来什么都特别好，就是有一个人特别讨厌。

And everything about that job sounded so cool except there was one guy there that was just a complete ass.

跟他面试的感觉特别不好。

And he was just not great to interview with.

说实话，就因为那一个人，我对整个工作都产生了很不好的感觉。

Frankly, I just got a really bad feeling about the whole job because of that one individual.

然后我就拒绝了。

And I turned him down.

我是说，我坐飞机回来，刚落地，他们就打电话给我，说要给我这个工作。

I mean, I took a flight back, and and when I landed, they they called me and offered me the job.

我就说，对不起。

I'm like, I'm I'm sorry.

这个工作我做不了。

I can't do this.

但是，你知道，你就是要小心这种事情。

And but, you know, you just gotta watch out for those kinds of things.

也许那是我做的一个错误决定。

And maybe that was a bad decision on my behalf.

不过我觉得不是。

I don't feel like it was though.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得这真的是一条很细的线。

Think there's a real thin line there.

你知道吗？

Know?

而且我觉得在那种情况下，你真的得听从自己的直觉。

And I think in those situations, you really do have to listen to your gut.

有些人可能外表看起来有点粗鲁，但他们其实是好人，只是可能有点粗糙，但如果有一个人，尤其是在面试过程中，让你感觉不对劲，通常最好还是相信那种感觉，因为那里面肯定有什么问题。

People can have kind of a gruff exterior, but they're still good people, they're just kind of maybe a little bit rough but when there's somebody that, especially during the interview process, that just rubs you the wrong way, usually it's probably better to go with that because there's something there.

这就是那种事情，如果你进入一份工作，然后现在我得忍受这个人，那可就麻烦了，我真不知道该怎么办。

That's one of those things that, boy, if you get into a job and it's now I have to put up with this person, it's oh, I don't know about that.

或者说，那个人是唯一一个卸下伪装的人。

Or that was the one person that let the facade down.

这也是另一种看法。

That's another way to consider it too.

对。

Yeah.

这个人根本不懂什么叫做圆滑。

This guy didn't tact wasn't in this guy's book.

就这么说吧。

Let's just call it that way.

我记得面试我的人，也就是我未来的经理，在房间里，每隔十五二十分钟就叫一个工程师进来。

I remember the person I was interviewing with was in the room or who would have been my manager, and he would call in an engineer every fifteen, twenty minutes.

然后我就一整天跟他们俩轮流面试。

And I'd interview with both of them all day long.

当这个人走进房间时，他连握手都没有。

And when this guy entered the room, he didn't come and shake my hand or whatever.

他走到白板前，拿起一支马克笔，塞到我手里，然后说：“画出运算放大器的内部结构。”

He walks up to the whiteboard, grabs a marker, puts it in my hand and goes, draw the internals of an op amp.

所以，他就是想看看我能不能画出来。

And and so, like, he just wanted to see it.

有趣的是，我其实在去面试之前刚好学过这个，算是运气好。

And what was funny was, like, I was it's it's maybe it was serendipitous, but I I studied that actually before going for for this.

所以我能回答他们所有的问题，但说实话，我真的不喜欢他那种处理方式。

So I was able to answer all these guys' questions, but it's just, man, didn't really like the way you handled that.

我们为什么不直接点名批评呢？

Why don't we Name and shame.

让我们听听这些人的名字。

Let's hear these people's names.

现在就点他们的名。

Let's call them out right now.

这就是我们开始做媒体内容的原因，这样我们就能报复他们了。

Accidentally So this is why we started doing media stuff, so we can get back at people.

你懂我的意思吧？

You know what I mean?

没错。

Exactly.

十五年后，你会在一个你从不听的播客上听到我的声音。

Fifteen years later, you're gonna hear from me on a podcast you never listen to.

你知道什么最搞笑吗？

Know what's really funny?

朋友也一样。

Friends do either.

关于那种特别的人，真的挺有意思的。

It's really funny about this this this that a particular individual like that.

我在石油天然气公司的第一份工作，当我提出辞职时，他们问我是不是因为我的主管，因为他就是那种有点锋芒的人，我想。

At my first job at the oil and gas company, when I put in my two weeks, they asked me if my supervisor was the reason why, because he was that person that had that edge to him, I guess.

其实我和这个人一点问题都没有。

And I actually, I didn't have any problem with this person at all.

而且我从他那里学到了很多，所以我就说，不，我也不知道为什么。

And I learned a lot from him and I was like, no, I don't know why.

我在面试过程中没听说过这个。

I haven't heard this in the interview process.

你会为这个有点混蛋的人工作。

You'll be working for this person who's kind of an ass.

然后我就想，他是奥斯汀三星半导体公司的。

And I'm like, he's an Austin Samsung semiconductor company.

我完全没感觉到这一点。

And I I didn't get that at all.

当然。

Sure.

对。

Yeah.

他确实有点粗鲁，你知道，相处起来……

He was a little rough on around the edges, you know, got along

和他相处得挺好的。

with him just fine.

这就是我换工作的原因。

And that was the reason why I switched.

其实我前几天刚和我老板聊过这个话题。

I actually just had a conversation with my boss the other day about this exact same topic.

我跟他说，你知道吗？

And I was mentioning to him, I was like, you know what?

这个团队真的很棒。

This this team is really cool.

我们这里没有人会让人不舒服，也没有人态度特别差。

We don't have anyone who's really rubs anyone the wrong way or has just a sandpaper attitude about things.

然后我老板就转过头看着我。

And and he and my boss just turns to me.

他说，对。

He goes, yeah.

别招混蛋。

Don't hire assholes.

那我们不如来聊聊那些我希望当初就知道的事情吧。

So why don't we get to the question of things I wish I knew back then?

你希望在第一份工作时就知道哪些事情？

What things you wish you knew back in your first job.

我希望当初就知道你们知道的那些，就是去一个能学到东西的地方，或者被一家有20个工程师的公司录用，这样你可以向他们学习。

I wish I knew what y'all knew, which was go learn with or go get hired by a place that has 20 engineers you can learn from.

因为那种经历我其实从来没有过。

Because that's actually never been an experience I've been able to have.

比如在油气公司的时候，我总是唯一一个……

Like the oil and gas place, was always, I was the only-

你现在不是在帕克的一家大型电子公司工作吗？

Don't you work at a monster electronics company now in Parker?

是的，但我是那里的首席电气工程师。

Yeah, but I'm like the lead electrical engineer.

我从来没有，从来没有在别人手下干过。

I never, I never worked Yeah, under

嗯，保持初心嘛，老兄。

well, beginner's mind, man.

初心。

Beginner's mind.

其实我从来没有，真的，我确实，当我们刚开始在这里组建工程团队的时候，感觉特别奇怪，因为我是负责人，但我却是在招聘有经验的工程师。

I never, actually, I, I do, When we've when we started actually building the engineering team here, it was really weird because I was, like, the lead, but I was the one who was, like, hiring experienced engineers.

帕克在面试的时候就像，好吧。

Parker in interviews is like, alright.

你能教我点什么？

What are you gonna teach me?

对。

Yeah.

对，没错。

What yeah.

面试我吧。

Interview me.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

不。

No.

别面试我。

Don't interview me.

直接把你的知识灌输到我脑子里吧，拜托了。

Just tell pour your knowledge into my brain, please.

这就是

That is

对。

Yeah.

比如，当我组建测试工程团队的时候。

Like, when we I had built a test engineering team.

我当时想，我对测试工程懂一些，但你知道，我没有十年的测试工程经验。

I'm like, I have no like, I know some stuff about test engineering, but not, you know, ten years of test engineering.

所以得搞清楚什么样的人才是好的测试工程师，什么样的流程才是好的。

So having to figure out what makes a good test engineer, what makes good processes for all that.

我得去向那些有经验的人学习，还得把他们招进来。

Like I had to go learn that from people that have been doing it and I had to hire them.

那感觉真的很奇怪。

So that was really weird.

所以我希望我有那种在资深工程师手下工作的经历。

So I wish I wish I had that experience of actually working with senior engineers that I was under.

这可能很大程度上导致了那种错失感，还有……

That might contribute a lot to that FOMO and and

帕克，你想不想雇我们中的一个人当Macrofab的资深首席工程师，然后我们就能告诉你该怎么做？

Would you like to hire one of us as the senior senior lead engineer at Macrofab, and then we could tell you what to do, Parker?

这就对了。

There we go.

我需要有人告诉我该怎么做。

I need people to tell me what to do.

也许我们可以做联合首席工程师。

Maybe we could be co lead engineers.

联合首席。

Co leads.

对。

Yeah.

不。

No.

因为我最近转到了市场营销，我就说，各位，你们得告诉我该怎么做。

Because I switched to marketing recently, and I'm like, guys, you need to tell me what to do.

我在市场部就像鱼离开了水一样。

Like, I'm fish out of water in the marketing department.

告诉我该做什么吧。

Tell me what to do.

就是那些数据分析之类的东西。

Something something analytics.

对。

Yeah.

嗯，对。

I yeah.

我，我也不知道。

I I don't know.

我希望我能早点开始学编程。

I wish I would've I think I wish I would've gotten started coding sooner.

我觉得这件事，连我的同事都不会告诉我。

I I I think this is something that they even my coworkers wouldn't have told me.

这算是其中一个缺点吧，也许这是个很好的反面例子。我去了一个有很多技术大牛的地方。

It's just, like, being more kind of one of the downsides, maybe this is a good counterpoint to this, is so I went to a place with tons of really in like, super deep technical knowledge people.

不过他们对这个一窍不通，你知道，我，我很爱他们。

They were clueless though about they you know, I I love I love them.

他们中的很多人还在那里，而且他们在设计很棒的产品。

They're many of them are still there, and they're they're designing great products.

但是没有其他地方可去。

But there are no other places.

比如，当你看看其他公司，这也是让我对三星望而却步的一个原因。我环顾四周，发现有些比我早来十五年的人，职位比我高，但他们做的还是我刚入职时做的工作，然后他们还在指挥我该做什么。

Like, when you look at what other so this is one thing that scared me away from Samsung as well is I was looking around, and there were people that were there fifteen years senior to me, you know, who were, you know, senior title, whatever, but they were doing the same thing I was just at and then they were telling me what to do.

我当时就想，我可不想那样。

And and I was like, I don't want that.

我不喜欢那种情况。

I don't like that that kind of thing.

所以再看看基思·李那边，也是同样的情况，那接下来往哪走呢？

And and so then looking at the same thing at a Keith Lee, where do you go from here?

没有上升空间，你知道，也没有横向发展的可能。

There is no up, you know, like, is no there is no side.

你甚至都不能，你甚至都不是，你知道，你是个模拟工程师。

You couldn't even you weren't even you know, so you're an analog engineer.

你在做这个超高端的八位半数字万用表，超级酷的东西。

You're working on this super high end eight eight and a half digit DMM, super cool stuff.

但是，接下来要做的事情就是再设计一个类似的。

But, like, the next thing is to design another one of those.

你知道吗？

You know?

不是去学FPGA，因为没有钱去做那种事情。

It's not go learn FPGAs because there's no money to go and do that sort of thing.

所以对我来说，我希望早点知道的事情就是，尽可能多地获取知识，在这个领域里深入学习，然后跳槽。

So for me, the thing that I wish I would've known sooner was just, like, get as much knowledge as you can, learn as much in this deep area, and then hop.

跳进下一个兔子洞去钻研。

Hop to the next the next hold rabbit hole to dive down.

即使现在，我也很难做到这一点。

And that's something that, like, even now I struggle with it.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得真正难的是，你把自己放在一个位置上，你知道，随着我们变老，我越来越暴躁，很多事情我也不懂，我就是一直很沮丧，我一直在努力把那种状态重新带回我的生活。

I because I think the real hard thing is that you're putting yourself in a position where, you know, as we get as I get older and I get grumpier and I I don't know a lot of things, I'm just, like, frustrated, like, all the time, and I'm trying to reintroduce that to my life a lot.

但这很难。

But it's tough.

做到这一点很难。

It's tough to do that.

所以，逼自己更多地去这样做，我希望我能早点知道这一点，你知道，因为你会扩展自己，能做更酷的事情。

So but pushing myself to do that more, I wish I would have known that sooner, you know, because you you expand and you can do cooler things.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得跟这个相关的是，我想说的是，我希望我知道要有一个计划，但计划是可以改变的。

I think related to that, I was going to say, I wish I had known to have a plan, but it's okay to change your plan.

对吧？

Right?

所以当我刚开始的时候，我以为我想了解关于设计宽带射频放大器的所有知识，但很快我就发现我一点都不喜欢那样，对吧？

And so when I first started I thought I wanted to know everything about designing wide bandwidth RF amplifiers and very quickly I didn't like that at all, right?

但我当时真的很害怕谈论这件事，因为我觉得别人会认为我很善变。但我觉得重要的是要知道自己有个计划，而且这个计划是可以改变的。

But I was really afraid to ever talk about that because I thought oh then people are going to think I'm flighty But I think it's important to know to have a plan and that that plan can change.

我觉得有些人像你一样，克里斯，想对所有事情都了解很多，而有些人只想在一个话题上深入钻研，对吧？

I think there are some people that are like you Chris that you want to learn everything about everything and then there are some people that just want to learn a lot about in one topic, right?

我想肯定有些人听到你说你只能在一个公司里移动，不能真正上升或横向移动，或者那是同一回事，但我觉得有些工程师想要那样。

I think I'll bet there are some people who heard you say you could only move in, you couldn't really move up or laterally or horizontally or is that the same thing within a company but there's I think some engineers that want that.

他们想继续做同样的事情

They want to keep doing the same kind of thing

二三十年

for twenty or thirty years

而且我觉得重要的是，这没关系，如果那是你的计划，那就把它当作你的计划吧。

and I think the important thing is that's okay and if that's your plan then fine, make that your plan.

如果你想能够到处移动，那么是的，你真的需要

If you want to be able to move around then yeah, you need to really

想想你打算怎么改变，然后去做。

think about how you're going to change do that.

你是说，要了解自己。

Know thyself, you're saying.

对吧？

Yeah?

哦，我喜欢这个说法。

Oh, I like that.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我想说的一个不那么严肃的事情是，我希望我在人生的某个时候学会使用git或者任何版本控制，而不是直到最近——我大概是在过去五年里才真正弄明白除了git clone之外还能做什么。

The less serious thing I was going to say is I wish I had learned how to use git or any kind of version control at some point in my life before the last, like I I I would only say in the last five years have I actually finally understood how to do something other than git clone.

git命令行还是让我害怕。

Git command line still scares me.

哎呀。

Oh, man.

水不深，没事的。

The water's fine.

我一直都用图形界面。

I I use I I use a GUI all the time.

我用图形界面

I use GUI

我也一直用。

all the time too.

对。

Yeah.

除非我看到什么提示说必须输入这个魔法命令，因为虽然我很喜欢用命令行界面，但Git命令行也让我害怕。

Unless I find something that says you have to put this magic command in because as much as I love using command line interfaces, Git command line also scares me.

这就对了。

There you go.

让自己不舒服一点。

Make yourself uncomfortable.

你会做到的。

You'll get there.

你知道吗，关于职业发展，我还在想另一件事，我真希望当初在最低点买了比特币和苹果的股票。

You know, the other thing I was thinking about career wise is I wish I would've bought Bitcoin and Apple at the bottom.

现在

Now

你只是在制造遗憾。

you're just coming up with Yeah.

你只是在制造遗憾。

You're just coming up with regrets.

我是说，拜托。

I mean, come on.

为什么不呢，各位？

Why not, guys?

我觉得我一开始就希望自己能知道的一件事，就是怎么拒绝别人。

I think one of the things that I wish I would have known back at the beginning was how to say no.

我当时对所有事情都说好。

I I said yes to absolutely everything.

我这么做是因为我真的想学所有东西，参与进去，然后什么都帮上忙。

And I said that because I really wanted to learn everything and just get involved and be useful at everything.

但很多方面，这反而让我在很多事情上帮不上忙。

And in a lot of ways that made me not useful at a lot of things.

我说好答应的事情远远超出了我能处理的量，而且大家都愿意把我说好的事情交给我。

I said yes to way more than I could handle and everyone was willing to give me what I said yes to.

结果我因为应付不过来，搞砸了不少事情。

And I ended up failing at a decent amount of things just because I couldn't handle it.

我真的希望我能早点学会说，不，我处理不了这个。

And I really wish I learned that quicker to just be like, no, I can't handle this.

这就是我的工作量。

This is my workload.

这是我的知识范围。

This is my knowledge base.

这是我目前的状态。

This is where I'm at right now.

我

I

真希望我也能学会怎么做到这一点。

wish I could still learn how to do that.

如果你的清单太长，优先级排序根本解决不了问题，那排序就没意义了。

Prioritization doesn't matter if you if your list is so long that prioritization doesn't even fix it.

对吧？

Right?

到某个时候，你只是在不停地处理堆在最上面的事情，但那个堆根本不会变。

At at some point, you're just you're just always working on the thing on the top of the heap, but the heap never changes.

你这是在攻击每一个正在听这个播客的人。

You're attacking every single person that listens and is in this podcast right now.

对。

Yeah.

因为那件事就是其中之一，就像在那个问题上做了个转向。

Because that was that was one thing is like having the pit the pivot on that one.

我希望我早就知道，买零件并不是项目最大的问题。

I wish I learned that just buying the parts isn't the biggest problem with the project.

说得对。

That's a good point.

我要把这些零件都塞到工作台下面去。

Gonna shove all these parts further underneath my bench here.

反过来也一样。

In the opposite way too.

你不能害怕说“不”，但你也得懂得怎么恰当地用这个“不”。

You can't be afraid to say no, but you also need to be able to use that appropriately.

我的意思是，这里没有什么高深的道理。

I I mean, there's there's no words of wisdom here.

就是学着点。

Just just learn.

我只能说这么多了。

That's all I can say.

我觉得我可能能帮你重新表述一下，你其实是在说，你得学会什么时候该说不。

I think I think I I might be able to rephrase what you're putting together is, you know, you need to learn when to say no.

对。

Yeah.

而且可能比你意识到的还要频繁。

And it's probably more often than you realize.

我觉得这是我希望自己职业生涯早期就能做得更好的事情之一，但确实，如果我看未来所有可以改进的地方，学会分清优先级和说不，可能永远都在清单上。

I I and I think that's one of those things that I wish I I I had gotten better at that early in my career, but that's definitely one that if I look at all the things I could work on at any point moving forward, learning to prioritize and say no is probably always going to be on the list.

至少我希望如此，因为这意味着我想尝试学会做所有事情。

At least I hope it is because it means I want to try to learn how to do everything.

优先学习，学会分清优先级。

Prioritize to learn prioritize.

这让我想起我毕业第一年或第二年时，有人对我说过的话。

This reminds me of something somebody said to me when I was this was my first or second year out of school.

我永远不会忘记那话听起来有多奇怪。

And I'll never forget how weird this sounded.

他打电话给我，那个同事打电话给我说，真抱歉，我拖了这么久才给你打电话。

So he called me up this coworker called me up and said, I'm so sorry it's taking me so long to call you.

我打算以后变得更主动一些。

I am planning to become more proactive in the future.

我喜欢

I like

我当时就想，那你为什么不现在就做呢？

I just thought, Why don't you just do it now?

你怎么计划变得主动？

How do you plan to become pro proactive?

那简直反过来了。

That's like the opposite.

就好像有个日期，到了那天他们就说，我现在很主动了。

It's like there's this date where they're like, I am proactive now.

也许他们有个KPI来衡量自己的主动性。

Maybe they have a KPI where they can measure their proactiveness.

主动侠，那实际上怎么衡量呢？

Proact Man, that would actually be how how would you measure that?

是不是就像，不用把事列到待办清单上就能完成？

Would would it be, like, getting things done without putting them putting them on your to do list?

不是。

No.

你把事列到待办清单上，然后马上划掉，因为你已经做完了。

You put them on your to do list and then immediately cross it out because you've already done it.

你看，我周末开始这么干，生活好多了。

See, I started doing that on the weekends, and that made my life so much better.

那你现在要做的事少多了。

And you have a lot less to do now.

这让你的清单看起来更厉害。

It makes your list look more impressive.

好的。

Okay.

这就像那种面试问题。

This is like one of those interview questions.

对吧？

Right?

我们之前聊过过去和现在的职业什么的。

Which is so so we talked about our our careers in the past and stuff like that and present.

那未来五年，我们觉得自己会在哪里？

So where do we see yourselves in the next five years?

反过来，五年前我们是怎么回答这个问题的？

And then on on the flip side of that is what was the answer to that question five years ago?

五年。

Five years.

对我来说，我会重复我跟老板说过的话，他之前跟我提过职业发展的事。

I would say as for me, I'll repeat what I I've told my boss when we he's brought up career before.

他就问我，你知道的，你对自己的职业有什么规划之类的。

He's, you know, like, do where you do you see your career career going and and whatever.

我就说，不管怎样，不管我在的创业公司发展得好还是不好，我觉得应该是好的那一种，那我可能还是会去做硬件顾问。

And I've I've said, you know, no matter no matter what, if if things go really poorly or things go really well with the startup I work at, and I I I think it's gonna be the latter, then I'm probably gonna be a hardware consultant again.

你懂吧？

You know?

所以我觉得大概就是帮别人设计电子产品来赚钱。

So I think probably designing electronics for people for money.

这大概就是我的目标，还有跟那些技术宅们聊电子相关的话题。

It's probably it's kinda my goal and talking about electronics with fellow nerds.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得也是。

I think.

你说吧。

Go ahead.

你说吧，帕克。

Go ahead, Parker.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

你说吧。

Go ahead.

哦，对。

Oh, yeah.

我想我也是这么想的。

That's kind of where I'm at, I guess.

当我不得不转到市场营销部门来帮助Macrofab这里的营销团队时，这确实有点打乱了我的计划。

It it kind of threw a little curveball when I had to move over to marketing to help out the marketing team here at Macrofab.

因为那时候我本来在做那些事情。

Because I was doing that, I guess.

我终于到了一个位置，觉得，好吧，我们的工程团队已经安排得妥妥的了。

I I had finally gotten into a position where I was like, okay, we got the engineering team all dialed in.

我们有一个测试工程团队。

We have a test engineering team.

我们有质量团队，等等等等。

We have quality, etcetera, etcetera.

我就觉得，太好了。

And I'm like, cool.

现在我可以回去做那些帮助我们制造其他东西的事情了。

Now I can get back to like building stuff that's helping like us build other things.

然后我刚开始着手做这个，他们就说，嘿，Parker，你知道吗？

And then I was starting to drum that up and they're like, Hey Parker, you know what?

你应该再回到市场营销那边去。

You should move back over to marketing again.

因为当时斯蒂芬在Macrofab的时候，我就是做市场营销的，也兼着做产品之类的。

Because I was like, when Stephen was at Macrofab, I was in marketing and I was also like product and stuff.

总之，我又回到了市场营销。

Anyways, so I went back into marketing.

所以这算是我没想到会再发生的事，就是全职回到市场营销。

So that was kind of like something I did not foresee happening again, was moving back to marketing full time.

我打算在市场营销那边开始做一些项目，这样我就能搞设计了。

Gonna start doing some projects in marketing that allows me to design stuff.

不过还得看看。

We'll see though.

这总是个愿望。

It's always the wish.

你随时可以做演示板。

You can always make demo boards.

对。

Yeah.

我发现，真的很难让客户允许你拍他们的东西。

I found is it's it's really hard to get customers to allow you to take photos of their stuff.

设计我自己拥有的东西，拍起来就容易多了。

Designing stuff that I I own is easy to take photos of doing that.

这样我们自己制作内容也更容易。

Make our own content easier.

对。

Yeah.

所以当我用这个五年滑动窗口的时候，我没有想过五年前和五年后，只知道一个概念。每次有人问我这个问题，我总是很纠结，因为我没法告诉你我五年后会在哪里，我只能告诉你我大致的方向。对我来说，我的前进道路一直有趣的地方在于，它总是和电子相关，或者至少今天当我展望未来时，我要做的事情会和电子有关。

So when I when I when I use this five year sliding window, like I didn't think about the five years ago and then five years from now, know the one concept and every time this question has ever been posed to me I always struggle with I can't tell you where I'm going to be in five years, I can tell you where I think I'm going and to me what's continuing to be interesting about my path forward is it's always going to be electronics related or at least today when I look forward something I'm going to be doing is going to be electronics related.

也许五年后我不再做内容创作，但我会做和电子相关的事情。

Maybe I won't be a content creator in five years but I'll be doing something electronically related.

在职业和赚钱方面，真的没有太多其他让我感兴趣的事情。

In terms of career and making money there's not a lot of other things that really interest me.

我有很多其他感兴趣的爱好，但我不想把那些变成工作或职业。

I've got plenty of other hobbies that I'm interested in but I don't want to make those a job or a career.

我觉得这至少是我在那个滑动窗口里能看到的一个不变的东西，不是内容，是恒定不变的东西。

I think that's at least the one content, not content, one constant that I can see in that sliding window.

我想如果你几年前问我同样的问题，我可能会给出更具体的答案，比如五年后我想成为某个领域的工程师，做特定类型的工作。

I think if you had asked me this exact same question a handful of years ago, I would have probably a lot more specific of an answer saying, Oh, in five years I want to be XYZ engineer doing this particular type of work.

随着我年纪大了一点，也换过几份工作，我对大幅改变自己谋生的工作方式已经不那么陌生或害怕了。

As I've gotten a little bit older and throughout a handful of job changes, I'm not really that unfamiliar or scared of making drastic changes to what I do for a paycheck.

所以我觉得五年后，基本上我能说的就是，不管我做什么，我都想成为一个值得信赖的资源，一个能胜任的工程师。

And so I think in five years, basically all I can say is regardless of what I do, I just want to be a trusted resource and a capable engineer at whatever that is.

这样人们就能依靠我去完成我需要做的事情，不管是什么。

So people can rely on me to execute on what I need to do regardless of it.

你一开始说了一些话，Stephen。

You you said something Stephen right at the start there.

如果你问我刚毕业一两年的时候，我觉得五年后我会在哪里？

If you asked me when I was a year or two out of school, where do I think I'm going be in five years?

我以前会说，五年后我要成为某个职位，做某种工作，但大概过了十年，我就不再把那当作目标或计划了。

I had a I want to be this title doing this job in five years and it was probably after about ten years that I stopped having that as my end point or my plan.

我的计划变得比具体职位更宽泛，所以我觉得今天很难说五年后我想要什么职位。

My plan became much more broader than this specific position which is why think today I would have a hard time saying this is the job title I want five years from now.

我就是觉得没法选出来。

I just don't see how I could pick that.

说实话，对我来说，工作顺利的一天就是，我进去，看到当天要面对的挑战或者需要我做的事，然后我认真执行，对自己做的工作有信心，然后下班。

I think honestly for me, a good day at work is I go in, I see the challenge that's ahead of me for that day or whatever is required of me and I execute faithfully and I feel confident of the work that I did and I leave.

对我来说，这就是好日子的定义。

That's like a just a definition of a good day for me.

如果五年后我能处于这样的状态，我的意思是，我现在也不是没做到。

If if I can be in a position in five years, I mean, it's not that I'm not doing that right now.

只是我希望五年后还能这样。

It's just I would like to also be doing that in five years.

所以我觉得我们所有人的答案都是，五年后，我们还是希望能靠工作赚钱。

So I think the answer to all of all of us is five years from now, we would still like to be making money doing a job.

我喜欢这个。

I like that.

对。

Yeah.

这是一个

That's a

和电子相关的。

good related to electronics.

对。

Yeah.

可能相关，也可能

Which may or may

和电子不相关。

not be related to electronics.

我觉得大概是的。

I think it'll probably yeah.

对我来说，电子这个领域可能会发生变化。

The of electronics is probably gonna change for me.

想想看，你知道的，我会想现在和我刚开始时有什么不同，之类的。

Think, you know you know, I think about what's how things are different now than when I started, whatever.

但是，是的，肯定会有电参与其中。

But, yeah, there'll be electricity involved.

对吧？

Right?

对。

Yeah.

我觉得，也许说工程比说电子更准确一些。

I I guess I I guess it'd be maybe it's more accurate to say engineering instead of electronics.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我不知道。

I don't know.