马可·奥勒留：哲人皇帝

无论疾病在哪里爆发，或任何自然灾害发生，他们都是这样理解的。

That's how they interpreted the outbreak of disease wherever it occurred or any kind of natural calamity.

因此，作为皇帝的马可·奥勒留在随后的岁月里，从罗马人的角度出发，采取了一切可能的措施，通过确保所有公民定期举行仪式、宗教节日和庆典，试图重建与神明的这种和平。

And so as emperor, Marcus, in the years that would follow, he took all the steps he could to try to, from the Romans perspective, reestablish this peace with the gods by making sure that the ritual practices and the religious festivals and ceremonies were practiced by all the citizens regularly.

所以在某种意义上，众神被归咎于这场瘟疫。

And so the gods were blamed in a sense for the plague.

但当然，马可·奥勒留不得不处理罗马城内尸体的处置问题。

But of course Marcus had to manage the disposal of corpses in Rome.

各省总督也必须在其城市采取相同措施。

And the provincial governors had to do the same in their cities.

这异常艰难，因为他们既没有合适的药物，也没有合适的医生或治疗方法，更缺乏应对流行病学的正确认知。

And this was exceedingly difficult because they didn't have the right kind of medicine or the right kind of doctors or the right kind of treatment because they didn't have the right kind of understanding of how to deal with epidemiology.

这就是我们了解那位著名医生盖伦著作的地方吧？他曾在马可·奥勒留麾下效力，不是吗？

Is this where we get the writings of that famous doctor Galen who serves with Marcus Aurelius, isn't it?

他正试图查明这种疾病的本质及其造成的毁灭性影响。

And he's just trying to figure out what this disease is and how devastating it's proving.

因此马可很幸运，他能拥有当时最杰出的医学家作为御医。

And so Marcus was fortunate that he had the foremost medical mind of the age as his physician.

盖伦曾亲自为马可治疗过疾病。

And Galen treated Marcus himself for his own maladies.

盖伦一直在努力理解这种疾病及其传播机制。

And Galen was trying to understand the disease and how that happened.

但流行病学并非盖伦所长，他的专长是解剖学——他通过大量解剖实验研究人体组织、骨骼和神经，并作为外科医生进行各种实验演示。

But epidemiology wasn't Galen's strength, his strength was anatomy because he did various experiments of dissection and he was learning about the different tissues and bones and nerves throughout the human body and the experiments and demonstrations that he would do as a surgeon.

准确地说，盖伦对病原体成因提出过自己的理论猜想。

So Galen had his own kind of theories about or guesses really, we should say to be accurate about what was causing the pathogen.

但盖伦本人很明智，会远离那些报告爆发疫情的城市。

But Galen himself knew enough to stay away from cities where there were reports of an outbreak.

那么你认为这次罗马帝国中心的瘟疫爆发，是否可以说是马可·奥勒留斯多葛式领导风格面临的首次重大考验？就像你之前强调的，他必须暂时放下哲学思考（比如宗教观），转而遵循大众宗教仪式——向众神献祭、安抚神灵等等。

So do you think this plague outbreak in the center of the Roman Empire as well, Could we say it's the first big test that Marcus Aurelius personally faces with his stoic style of leadership, of emperorship, where as you highlighted earlier, like, you've gotta take your mind away from the philosophical type of thinking, for instance, with religion, and you actually just have to do the popular type of religion, doing all these offerings to the gods, appeasing the gods, and so on.

你认为这是马可·奥勒留及其思维方式面临的首次重大挑战吗？

Do you think this is one of the first big challenges for Marcus Aurelius and his way of thinking?

是的。

Yes.

可以这么说。

We could say that.

马库斯在涉及这类宗教价值观和宗教实践时非常保守。

And Marcus was very conservative when it came to these sorts of religious values and religious practices.

我们有一些艺术品展示了马库斯进行公牛献祭的场景。

We have a bit of art that shows Marcus performing a sacrifice of a bull.

对吧？

Right?

这与文献记载一致，表明马库斯非常重视宗教正统实践。

And this is consistent, this is congruent with the literary sources about how Marcus took religious orthopraxy very seriously.

这与他个人的哲学神学并不矛盾——他秉持斯多葛一元论，认为神祇的本质与运作方式只会带来美好事物。

And this was not a contradiction given his own philosophical theology, his own kind of stoic monism in terms of what the gods are and how they operate, that they're only a source of good things.

因此作为哲学家，马库斯本人绝不会相信神祇会伤害任何人类。

So Marcus himself, qua philosopher, would never believe that the gods did anything to harm any human being.

这与他们作为完美德性存在的本性相悖。

This would be contrary to their nature as perfectly virtuous beings.

对吧？

Right?

但他认识到，在民间宗教中，大多数人并非哲学家。

But he recognized that for the popular religion, most people are not philosophers.

他们对神祇没有这种理解。

They don't have that understanding of the gods.

因此，那些需要遵循的仪式、典礼和节日，就像一种社会粘合剂，将人们和社区凝聚在一起，使他们能够在一定程度上协作应对疾病等实际挑战。

And so the rituals and the ceremonies and festivals that needed to be practiced provided a kind of social cement, a kind of societal glue that held people and communities together and allowed them to collaborate to the extent they could to deal with the practical challenges of disease.

这如何使马可·奥勒留与基督教产生冲突？

How does this put Marcus Aurelius into conflict with Christianity?

对。

Right.

嗯，就像我刚才说的那样。

Well, so as I said yeah.

正是如此。

Exactly.

于是就有了这种被罗马人称为迷信的新事物。

So you have this new, what the Romans called superstition.

它之所以未被确立，是因为这是一个新的信仰体系。

It wasn't established because it was a new belief system.

对吧？

Right?

新的习俗，新的仪式，关于那个在马可时代大多数人一无所知的、在帝国东部边缘被钉死的犹太人。

New practices, new rituals about this Jew who had been crucified in the eastern edge of the empire who most people didn't know anything about during Marcus' time.

基督教是如此新奇古怪的信仰体系，被罗马人视为迷信。

Christianity was such a new fangled belief system that the Romans regarded as a superstition.

于是他们开始寻找替罪羊。

And so they were looking for scapegoats.

那么是谁没有遵守'众神之约'呢？

So who isn't keeping the Pax de Orum?

谁没有进行多神教仪式来取悦众神。

Who is not practicing the polytheistic rituals to keep the gods happy.

嗯，就是那些新来的奇怪的一神教徒，他们否认皇帝的神性，否认朱庇特、朱诺、阿波罗和马尔斯是神，并拒绝向他们献祭。

Well, these new strange monotheists who deny that the emperor is divine, who deny that Jupiter and Juno and Apollo and Mars are gods and refuse to sacrifice to them.

所以这些被称为基督徒的私密、怪异、迷信的群体所造成的社会威胁和破坏性影响，被正统罗马多神教异教徒视为一种威胁，对吧？

So the kind of social threat, the destabilizing impact that these private secret weird superstitious folks called Christians were perpetrating was seen as a threat by the Orthodox Roman Paletheist Pagans, right?

因此他们不时成为替罪羊，被视为破坏性因素，被认为助长或可能要对瘟疫和其他自然灾害负责。

And so they were scapegoated from time to time And they were seen as a destabilizing factor and contributing to or perhaps responsible for the plague and other natural calamities.

但在马可统治期间，最严重的是瘟疫。

But this is the biggest one during Marcus' reign was the plague.

那么马可·奥勒留是否监督了对基督徒的迫害？

And so does he oversee a persecution, Marcus Aurelius?

没有。

No.

如果你问我，马可是否迫害过基督徒？

If you ask me, did Marcus persecute the Christians?

我的答案是否定的。

My answer would be no.

如果你问我，马可统治期间基督徒是否受到迫害？

If you ask me, were Christians persecuted during Marcus' reign?

答案绝对是肯定的。

The answer is absolutely yes.

没错。

Right.

好的。

Okay.

但再次强调，马库斯是知道基督徒的存在的。

But, again, Marcus was aware of the Christians.

有证据表明，宫廷工作人员中可能有一两名基督徒，但我们没有任何迹象表明马库斯曾与他们交谈或详细了解他们的信仰。

There's some evidence that there might have been a couple Christians in the palace who were members of the staff, but we don't have any indication that Marcus had conversations with them or learned details about their beliefs.

因此，历史记录显示的是，在马库斯统治期间，不同城市中相隔数年的某些事件引发了骚乱，当地民众认为当地的基督徒扰乱了与神灵的关系。

And so instead, what the historical record suggests is that sometimes events separated by several years in various several different cities during Marcus' reign experienced unrest in which the local population decided that the Christians locally were messing things up with the gods.

他们破坏了社会和谐以及与神灵的和平。

They were disrupting the social harmony and peace with the gods.

他们没有参加节日庆典。

They weren't participating in the festivals.

他们没有进行祭祀。

They weren't making the sacrifices.

因此，他们被认为是瘟疫的罪魁祸首。

And therefore, they were the ones to blame for the plague.

于是他们成了替罪羊。

And so they were scapegoated.

当地人会向该省的总督或城市官员施压，要求围捕基督徒。

And the locals would then pressure the governor of that province, of the city officials of those cities, to round up the Christians.

基督教在帝国内是非法的，所以任何自称基督徒的人都犯了罪，但应受审判，他们有机会否认自己是基督徒。

And Christianity was illegal within the empire, so anyone who avowed being a Christian was guilty of a crime but deserved a trial, and they were given the opportunity to disavow being Christians.

所以他们会直接被问：你是基督徒吗？

So they would be asked directly, Are you a Christian?

如果他们拒绝，并向异教神明献上适当的祭品，就会被释放。

And if they said no, and then made the proper sacrifice to the pagan gods, then they were let go.

但如果他们拒绝献祭，坚称自己是基督徒，就会受到惩罚，而且是残酷的惩罚，直至被处决。

But if they refused to make the sacrifice and if they insisted that they were indeed Christians, then they were punished, and they were punished brutally, and they were executed.

那么，威廉，随着一月份接近尾声，我们继续下一个话题吧。

Well, let's move on to the next topic now, William, as we get towards the end of the January.

我们的朋友卢修斯现在怎么样了？

How's our friend Lucius doing at the moment?

卢修斯·费里斯最近如何？

How's Lucius Ferris doing?

他独揽了帕提亚战争胜利的全部功劳。

Well, he took the credit, all of the credit for the successful campaign, in the Parthian Wars.

哦，是从他那可爱的东方基地得来的，对吧？

Oh, from his, from his lovely lovely base in the East, is it?

没错。

That's right.

正是如此。

That's right.

我记得他带着随从和表演艺人驻扎在安条克。

I I believe it was Antioch where he decided to situate himself with his troop and entourage of performers and entertainers.

他因此居功，而马库斯也乐意让他领功，因为确实是将军们为东方的卢修斯打赢了战争，平息了叛乱。

So he took credit for that and Marcus was fine giving him credit for that because the generals did win the war for Lucius in the East and they put down the rebellion.

所以他获得了各种头衔。

And so he received various titles.

这非常普遍。

This was very common.

马库斯也会获得头衔，因为他是在罗马远距离指挥战争的。

Marcus would also receive titles because he was managing the war from a great distance back in Rome.

卢修斯表现尚可，但当瘟疫爆发时，他确实没有为马库斯提供任何协助处理帝国内部事务的帮助。

Lucius was doing fine, but the problem was when the plague broke out, he really didn't offer Marcus any help at all in terms of administering matters within the empire.

所以所有繁琐的工作，包括日常决策、撰写法令文书这类事务，以及与各行省总督沟通等等。

So all of the dirty work, the day to day duties of making decisions and writing rescripts and that sort of thing, communicating with the different provincial governors and so forth.

卢修斯对这些毫无兴趣。

Lucius had no taste for that at all.

那么这最终如何导致两位皇帝不得不离开罗马，向多瑙河附近新出现的蛮族威胁进军？

And how does this ultimately end up with both emperors having to leave Rome and march towards a new barbarian threat near the aforementioned Danube River.

没错。

That's right.

于是他们与盖伦同行，不得不投身北方战争。

So there they are with Galen, and they have to go engage in the northern wars.

而卢修斯病倒了。

And Lucius fell sick.

盖伦警告他们有个城镇爆发了疫情，但他们仍穿过了那个地区。

Galen warned them that there was a town where there was an outbreak and they traveled through that area.

有些历史学家认为卢修斯实际上是死于瘟疫。

And some historians think that Lucius actually died of the plague.

但我们知道他病倒后，几天之内就去世了。

But we know that he fell sick and after several days he died.

而且他比马库斯年轻，并非老人，因此他的死亡是个相当合理的解释。

And he was younger than Marcus, he was not an old man, so that's a pretty plausible explanation of his death.

就这样，马库斯失去了他的养兄弟兼共治皇帝，很可能是死于瘟疫。

And so Marcus lost his adoptive brother and co emperor, probably to the plague.

因此，在帕提亚战争中至少获得了一些军事战术和策略的实战训练，尽管他在那方面并非亲力亲为的领导者。

And so having gotten some on the job training in military tactics and strategy, at least a little bit from the Parthian war, even though he wasn't a very hands on leader in that regard.

他的养兄弟去世后，马库斯独自北上应对蛮族入侵。

His adoptive brother died, and so Marcus was all alone marching off to the north to deal with barbarian invasions.

需要强调的是，这在罗马历史整体叙事中几乎是个反常现象——通常当权力顶端有两位近乎竞争的人物时，若其中较年轻者死亡，人们会立即怀疑存在阴谋或另一人设计除掉对方。

Just to stress because this almost feels a bit of an anomaly in the whole story of Roman history when there are two almost competing figures at the top that normally if one of them dies and they're younger than the other, that straight away someone might suggest that there's been some foul play there or something like that, or the other one has done away with them.

但似乎没有任何迹象或暗示表明马可·奥勒留可能参与了卢修斯·维鲁斯的死亡。

But it seems like there is no hint, no suggestion at all that Marcus Aurelius could have been involved in Lucius Verus' demise.

这似乎与他的品格完全不符。

That, like, his character doesn't seem to stack up with that at all.

没有。

No.

绝对没有证据表明马库斯会希望卢修斯·维鲁斯死去。

There's absolutely no evidence that suggests that that Marcus would want Lucius Verus to die.

现有证据显示，马库斯认为自己的责任是劝导卢修斯认真履行共治皇帝的职责。

The evidence is that Marcus believed that it was his responsibility to try to coax Lucius into taking his responsibilities as co emperor seriously.

马库斯从一开始就希望与卢修斯共享统治权。

Marcus wanted to share rule with Lucius from the beginning.

他坚持要让卢修斯成为自己的共治皇帝。

He insisted that Lucius be his co emperor.

如果他曾想让卢修斯死，一开始就那样做根本毫无道理。

If he had ever wanted Lucius dead, it just wouldn't have made any sense for him to have done that initially.

那么他是否可能在晚年对卢修斯产生反感？

Now could he have developed antipathy to Lucius later in life?

嗯，我想这是有可能的，但再次强调，我们对此毫无证据。

Well, I suppose it's possible, but again, have no evidence of that at all.

卢修斯即便贡献不大，他确实为帕提亚战争的胜利出过力。

Lucius, even if he didn't help very much, he did help with the victory of the Parthian war.

是他亲自率军远征的。

He's the one who traveled out there.

马库斯则留守罗马。

Marcus stayed in Rome.

对吧？

Right?

因此证据表明，马库斯只会感激卢修斯在领导帕提亚战役时——尽管表现不完美——尽了自己的职责，并且会希望借助卢修斯在近期战役中的经验，当他们北上应对夸迪人、马科曼尼人和阿亚扎吉斯人时。

So the evidence suggests that he was only grateful to Lucius for doing his part as imperfectly as he did in leading the Parthian campaign and and would want to benefit from his experience in that recent campaign when they go to the North to deal with the Quadi and the Marcomanni and the Aya Zagis.

而且

And

那么我们现在就来谈谈这个。

Well, let's go to that now.

现在卢修斯已经死了。

So Lucius is now dead.

马可·奥勒留已接管了军队。

Marcus Aurelius has taken control of the army.

他挥师北上，迎战这个来自北方的新威胁——日耳曼蛮族。

He marches north to confront this new northern barbarian Germanic threat.

马可·奥勒留在这场战争中扮演了多积极的角色？

How active a role does Marcus Aurelius take in this war?

意识到自己在军事战术方面的局限和经验不足，他确实像卢修斯·维鲁斯那样倚重自己的将军们。

So recognizing his own limitations and his lack of military tactics experience in military tactics, he did rely upon his generals as Lucius Verus had done.

但马可并没有远离前线。

But Marcus was not hanging out miles behind the front.

所以他离前线很近。

So he was close to the front.

他允许将军们自主执行实际的突袭战术和防御机动。

He allowed his generals to conduct the actual tactics of the forays that they had and the defense maneuvers that they had.

而马可正在学习军事战术。

And Marcus was learning about military tactics.

因此他与将军们保持着密切互动。

So he was involved with his generals.

他经常与将军们深入商讨。

He consulted with them closely.

但具体的战斗指挥工作，他交给了专业人士。

But the obvious concrete management of the battles, he left to the experts.

不过就我们所能判断的，他非常善于识别军事才能。

But he was very good so far as we can tell at recognizing military intellect.

对吧？

Right?

他挑选的都是经验丰富的将领。

He picked generals who were experienced.

研究马库斯的历史学家们都说，他非常善于识别专业才能。

The historians who write about Marcus say that he was very good at recognizing expertise.

因此他将那些经验丰富的老兵提拔到更高职位。

And so he promoted those very experienced veteran military officers to higher posts.

他需要他们，也意识到自己将要倚重他们。

And he needed them, and he recognized that he would be relying on them.

这类行政决策和管理正是马库斯所擅长的，人们也很感激他对他们才能的认可。

And so that that kind of administrative decision and management Marcus was pretty good at, and people appreciated his recognizing their merits.

他在这个程度上肯定了任人唯贤的制度。

He affirmed meritocracy to that extent.

当他在北方多瑙河附近的前线时，他会思考些什么？

And what sorts of things does he think about when he's near the front up in the North near the Danube River?

从他的备忘录和这个时期的冥想中，有哪些真正值得一提的思想流传下来？

What types of thoughts do we have surviving from his memoranda, from his meditations at around this time that are really worth mentioning?

没错。

Right.

有个描述非常生动的例子。

So there's one that's really very graphic.

他谈到一只断手或断脚。

He talks about a severed hand or a severed foot.

当你刚在战斗结束后造访战场时，就会看到这样的景象。

When you visit a battlefield after battle has just occurred, you see just such things.

你会看到人们缺胳膊少腿，脚被砍断。

You see people with limbs missing, with feet that have been hacked off.

所以马库斯亲眼目睹了这些景象。

So Marcus saw these things with his own eyes.

他并非远离战场数英里之外。

He was not miles away from the battlefield.

他就近在咫尺。

He was there close-up.

因此他见识了刀剑、长矛和箭矢下的战争模样。

So he saw what warfare was like with the sword and the spear and the arrow.

他沉思着这些肢体、身体部位显然已无法正常运作。

And he reflects on how these limbs, these parts of the body cannot function, obviously.

一旦手或脚被截肢，它们就无法发挥手或脚的功能。

Once a hand or a foot is dismembered, it cannot function they cannot function as a hand or a foot.

但我们的职责——这是他得出的哲学启示——是在整体中履行自己的角色。

But our role, this is the philosophical lesson that he draws, our role is to fulfill our part within the whole.

我们每个人都像是手上的手指。

We are like fingers on a hand, each one of us.

为了像手指般履行职责，我们必须与同一只手上的其他手指协调配合。

And in order for us to do our job as fingers we have to coordinate with the other fingers on the same hand.

还必须与另一只手和手臂协同合作。

And we have to coordinate with the other hand and the other arm.

这正是人类社会应有的运作方式。

And this is how human society ought to work.

各部分协同运作，确保整体正常运转。

Parts contributing to the proper operation of the whole.

这一主题贯穿于所有备忘录中。

And this is a theme throughout the memoranda.

这可以说是马库斯政治哲学的一部分。

And this is part of Marcus' political philosophy if you will.

我们就像共处同一蜂巢的蜜蜂。

We are bees that occupy the same hive.

我们各司其职，为整体利益服务。

We have our jobs to do for the greater good of the whole.

这体现了他对罗马公民在帝国中的责任认知，以及他作为蜂王的职责观。

And this is his view of Roman citizens' responsibility in relation to the whole empire and his responsibility as king bee.

古人并不相信蜂后存在。

The ancients didn't didn't believe in queen bees.

他们认为蜂巢统治者当然是雄性，所以是蜂王。

They believed that the ruler of the hive was male, of course, so king bees.

这正好引出我的问题：我们是否了解他与妻子的关系？

That leads us in nicely for me to ask, do we know much about his relationship with his wife?

因为我知道他有一位相当显赫的妻子，对吧？

Because I know he's got quite a prominent wife, doesn't he?

我记得她叫福斯蒂娜？

And I think her name's Faustina?

福斯蒂娜。

Faustina.

没错。

That's correct.

小福斯蒂娜。

Faustina the younger.

当然，还有大福斯蒂娜。

Of course, there's also a Faustina the older.

抱歉，威廉。

My apologies, William.

谢谢。

Thank you.

是的。

Yes.

小福斯蒂娜是安东尼·庇护的女儿。

So Faustina the younger was the daughter of Antonius Pius.

从这个意义上说，马可算是通过婚姻成为皇帝的。

And so in that sense, Marcus married into being the emperor.

首先必须说明，马可深爱他的妻子。

So first of all, we have to say Marcus was devoted to his wife.

根据备忘录和其他史料记载，马可认为她是一位体贴、深情、关怀备至的贤妻良母。

In the evidence in the memoranda and other sources, Marcus appreciated her as supportive and loving and caring and a wonderful mother and a wonderful wife.

所以他对她只有赞美之词。

So he had only good things to say about her.

然而，有人散布谣言称，在马可长期远征北方、多年不在罗马期间，福斯蒂娜曾有过婚外情。

However, others spread a rumor that Faustina was having an affair when Marcus was conducting the northern wars and away from Rome for years at a time for years at a time.

传闻她在罗马时曾有过风流韵事，对象可能包括角斗士。

The rumor was that she was having an affair or affairs back in Rome and possibly with gladiators.

这发生在康茂德出生之前。

This is before the birth of Commodus.

所以作为历史学家，你必须判断这些传闻的可信度。

So as a historian, you have to decide how much stock you wanna put in these rumors.

这种故事确实很引人遐想，但未必真实。

It makes for, you know, nice titillating story, but it might not be true.

甚至有人推测康茂德的生父不是马可·奥勒留，而是某个角斗士。

Some even speculate that Commodus' father was not Marcus Aurelius, was some gladiator.

我们无法证实这一点。

We don't know that this is true.

这更像是后人得知康茂德成为暴君后添油加醋的说法。

That feels more like an added addition later when they know how bad an emperor Commodus becomes.

对吧？

Right?

所以他们想把马可·奥勒留与这些负面传闻划清界限。

So they want to steer away Marcus Aurelius from any negative connotations there.

是的。

Yes.

没错。

That's right.

但我们确实知道，随着北方战事拖延、瘟疫与战争伤亡不断累积，人力确实出现了严重短缺。

But we do know that as the campaigns in the North dragged on, as the casualties from the plague piled up, as the casualties from the battles piled up, there was a real shortage of manpower.

采矿量下降，而这是他们创造财富的方式。

There was a decrease in mining which is how they generated wealth.

如果没有金属，你就无法铸造硬币。

You can't print coins, you can't stamp coins if you don't have the metal.

因此出现了严重的劳动力短缺，很难找到角斗士来娱乐罗马市民。

And so there was a tremendous labor shortage, it was very hard to get gladiators to entertain the citizens in Rome.

帝国的财政状况确实非常糟糕。

And so the financial affairs of the empire were really very bad.

于是马库斯决定做的是，从宫殿里收集他和福斯蒂娜的个人物品，举行一场拍卖会。

And so what Marcus decided he had to do was collect together his personal possessions and Faustina's personal possessions from the palace and hold an auction.

哇。

Wow.

他们拍卖了自己的个人物品，包括艺术品、雕像、精美的餐具、盘子、珠宝、华丽的衣服。

They auctioned off their own personal possessions, their art, their statuary, their fine flatware, dishes, jewels, fancy clothes, they sold these on auction.

福斯蒂娜对此并不高兴，但她意识到，我的丈夫——皇帝认为这是必要的，所以我必须配合。

And Faustina wasn't happy about it, but she recognized, you know, my husband, the emperor, thinks it's necessary, so I gotta go along with it.

对吧？

Right?

这为我们提供了一个有趣的视角，了解帝国国库的紧急情况，马库斯觉得必须这样做才能支付账单。

So this is a kind of an interesting window into the exigencies of the coffers, the treasury of the empire that Marcus felt compelled to do this in order to pay the bills.

我们在他的著作中也能感受到这一点吗？

Do we get any sense of that in his writings as well?

他对舍弃他们可能视为奢侈品的东西有什么看法？

Does he have thoughts towards getting rid of what they might consider luxuries?

我不想用‘苦行’这个词，那太夸张了。

I don't wanna use the word ascetic because that's way too far.

但你认为这次拍卖与帝国面临的明显压力，是否与他斯多葛派的哲学信仰相符？

But do you think this auction alongside the clear strains on the empire did align with his stoic philosophical beliefs?

他提到了财富。

He mentions wealth.

他在《沉思录》中谈到了财富。

He talks about wealth in the memoranda.

想想那件紫袍。

So consider the purple robe.

对吧？

Right?

那么华丽的服饰，昂贵奢华的衣物。

So fancy clothing, fancy expensive clothing.

为什么它如此昂贵？

Why was it expensive?

嗯，因为它是紫色的。

Well, because it was purple.

那么他们从哪里获取紫色染料？

So where did they get purple dye?

他们从骨螺壳中提取紫色染料。

They got purple dye from the murex shell.

对吧？

Right?

来自一种贝类。

From a shellfish.

而且它的血液是这种带紫色的。

And it had this kind of purplish blood.

你无法从每一只这种小骨螺甲壳类动物身上获取很多血液。

And you can't get a lot of blood out of each one of these little murex crustaceans.

对吧？

Right?

所以需要大量这种贝类才能提取出少量紫色染料。

So it took a lot of them to get even a small amount of purple dye.

因此这种被称为泰尔紫的紫色染料极其昂贵。

So the purple dye, this Tyrian purple as it was called, was extremely expensive.

这就是为什么只有最高级别的官员才能穿紫色，包括皇帝。

And that's why it was only the highest ranking officials that ever wore purple, including the emperor.

那么皇帝的紫袍是什么呢？

And so what is an emperor's purple robe?

它看起来光彩夺目。

Well, it looks glorious.

它看起来华丽非凡。

It looks gorgeous.

它看起来非常精致。

It looks so fancy.

对吧？

Right?

马库斯在备忘录的一篇记录中提到，那是用贝类血液染色的羊毛。

So in one of his entries in the memoranda, Marcus says, it's sheep's wool dyed in shellfish blood.

当你这样描述时，所有的魅力都消失了，不是吗？

And when you describe it that way, it takes all the glamour out of it, doesn't it?

对吧？

Right?

那精致的烤乳猪、烤羊肉或小羊肉、牛肉，无论是什么，无论是什么烤肉呢？

And what about fancy roasted roast pig and roast mutton or lamb or whatever it is, beef, whatever it is, whatever the roasted meat is.

他说，那不过是盘子上的死猪。

He says, It's a dead pig on a plate.

那是动物的尸体。

It's the corpse of an animal.

黄金又是什么？

And what is gold?

黄金闪闪发光，令人着迷，人们为之争夺杀戮。

Well gold, it glitters, it's fabulous, it's coveted, and people fight and kill for it.

黄金是什么？

What is gold?

那是地里的泥土。

It's dirt from the ground.

精美的大理石是什么？

What is fine marble?

那是另一种，你知道的，地里的石头。

It's another kind of, you know, rock from the ground.

所以他有一种倾向，确切地说是一种修行，即斯多葛学派对事物去魅的实践，那些普通人渴望并高度重视的寻常财物。

So he has this tendency, this practice really, the stoic practice of deglamorizing things, common possessions that ordinary people covet and they value highly.

他只是通过极其直白地看待事物，几乎到了分子层面，就抽走了其中的浮华。

And he just sucks the air out of it by seeing it very plainly, almost at a molecular level.

它没那么特别。

It's not that fancy.

不值得去觊觎。

It's not worth coveting.

对吧？

Right?

与成为一个有德行的人、一位称职的父亲、丈夫和兄弟相比，这些都不重要。

It's not important compared to being a virtuous person and a decent father and husband and brother.

在他沉思的主题中，他的哲学思考中，有一个观点在当今斯多葛主义中显得尤为重要，尤其是考虑到我们周围世界发生的一切，以及我们只需点击互联网按钮就能获取全球新闻的便利。

In the themes of his musings, his philosophical thinking, one that seems so big in stoicism today, especially with everything going on around us in the world and our access to, you know, global news at the click of a button on the Internet.

这个观点是不要为无法控制的事情失眠，你需要专注于你能控制的事情，尽可能过好生活，对于那些让你烦恼却无法控制的事情，你几乎需要划清界限，以免它们过度影响你的心理健康。

This idea of not losing sleep over things that you cannot control, This idea that you need to focus on what you can control and lead the best life that you can and things that upset you but you can't control, you need to almost draw a line there so that it doesn't affect your mental well-being too far.

这是他经常提出的观点吗？

Is that an idea that he puts forward a lot?

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

当然，这是他从爱比克泰德那里学来的。

And that, of course, he learned from Epictetus.

爱比克泰德是古罗马斯多葛学派哲学家，他最强调这种二分法——即区分什么是我们能掌控的，什么是我们不能掌控的。

Epictetus is the ancient Roman stoic who most emphasized that dichotomy, that distinction between what is up to us and what is not up to us.

让自己沉迷于事件、他人的行为、他们的信仰、天气、经济等这些我们无法掌控的事物，简直是疯狂之举。

And how it is just insanity to allow yourself to become obsessed with events, other people's actions, their beliefs, the weather, the economy, all of these things are not up to us.

我们无法控制它们。

We don't control them.

我们甚至无法完全控制自己体内发生的一切。

We don't even control everything that goes on inside our own bodies.

所以我们无法控制生病，没有人会选择生病或受伤。

So we don't control getting ill, who chooses to become ill, who chooses to become injured, no one.

但我们可以掌控的是：如何应对伤病、如何面对疾病、我们的态度、选择、观点、决定、判断、接受的信念、拒绝的信念、追求的知识或固守的无知。

But what is up to us is how we respond to our injuries, how we respond to our illness, our attitudes, our choices, our outlook, our decisions, our judgments, the beliefs that we accept, the beliefs that we reject, the knowledge that we pursue or the ignorance that we cling to.

这些才是我们能掌控的事物。

These are the things that are up to us.

因此马可·奥勒留总是在他的斯多葛式沉思中反复重温这一课。

And so Marcus is always rehearsing that lesson in his stoic reflections.

对吧？

Right?

他无法控制其他罗马公民的行为，但他可以爱他们。

He can't control what other citizens, other Roman citizens do, but he can love them.

他可以致力于作为皇帝、罗马人、丈夫和父亲，尽己所能做到最好。

He can dedicate himself to doing the best job that he can as emperor, as a Roman and as a man, as a husband and as a father, doing the best he can.

那么我们对马可·奥勒留执政末年的情况了解多少呢？

And so what do we know about Marcus Aurelius' final years on the throne?

在经历了统治期间的种种磨难后，他真的努力改善罗马帝国的境况吗？

Does he really try hard to improve the situation in the Roman Empire after all the hardships it suffers during his reign?

证据表明他确实这么做了。

The evidence suggests that he did.

他立法保护当时在继承权方面极为弱势的寡妇和孤儿。

He legislated measures to protect widows and orphans who were extremely vulnerable at the time in terms of inheritance.

马库斯对战败的敌人施以仁慈而非处决。

Marcus exercised mercy for his defeated foes instead of executing them.

例如那些参与阿维狄乌斯·卡西乌斯领导的叛乱的人。

For example, those who were involved in the rebellion led by Avidius Cassius.

哦，那是一场叛乱，是吗？

Oh, that's a rebellion, is it?

啊。

Ah.

是的。

Yes.

所以当时有个篡位者。

So so there was a usurper.

他有一位非常信任的将军奥菲狄乌斯·卡西乌斯，此人很大程度上负责了帕提亚战争期间的胜利。

He had a very trusted general, Ophidius Cassius, who was largely responsible for the successes during the Parthian war.

马库斯依赖他来维持帝国整个东部地区的稳定与和平。

Marcus relied on him for maintaining stability and and keeping the peace for that whole eastern portion sector of the empire.

但多年后，有传言称马库斯病重将不久于人世。

But years later, there was a rumor that Marcus was sick and was about to die.

还有传言称福斯蒂娜曾写信给阿维狄乌斯·卡西乌斯，怂恿他造反篡位，因为他在军中极得人心——这在罗马历史上屡见不鲜：当一位将军声望极高时，他的部下就会起哄说，嘿。

And there was also a rumor that Faustina wrote to Avidius Cassius and urged him to rebel, to usurp the throne because he was hugely popular with his troops, and this often happened in Roman history that if a general became very, very popular, his troops would say, hey.

你该当皇帝。

You should be emperor.

我们会支持你为你而战。

We're gonna support and fight for you.

你能推翻王座上这个家伙。

You can overthrow this this guy on the throne.

然后他们就得做个重大决定。

And then they had to make kind of a momentous decision.

对吧？

Right?

他们必须决定，好吧。

They had decide, okay.

我要不要动手？

Do I do it?

要不要冒险？

Do I risk it?

要不要接管帝国？

Do I to take over the empire?

这可是重大抉择，不是吗？

It's a big call, isn't it?

这风险太大了。

It's a big risk.

回去。

Going back.

是的。

Yep.

这是个巨大的风险，因为你知道，这些是为你们而战的军队。

It's a big risk because, you know, these are the troops who fight for you.

所以你不想让他们不开心。

So you don't you wanna keep them happy.

你不想扼杀他们的希望和梦想。

You don't wanna squash their hopes and dreams.

对吧？

Right?

但你可能最终会脑袋挂在长矛上。

But you might end up with your head on a pike.

所以无论福斯蒂娜是否催促——也许她以为马库斯会死，因为记得后来她加入了马库斯在北方战争中的营地。

And so whether Faustina urged maybe she thought Marcus was gonna die because remember, she later joined Marcus in the northern wars where he was encamped.

但多年来，她一直待在罗马。

But for years, she was back in Rome.

总之，不管她是否写信怂恿阿维迪乌斯·卡西乌斯发动这场叛乱，他确实这么做了，并试图篡夺王位。

So anyway, whether she wrote and urged Avedias Cassis to launch this rebellion or not, he did, and he tried to usurp the throne.

于是马库斯派出了军队——你知道，他非常震惊。

And so Marcus sent troops you know, he was shocked.

他完全措手不及。

He he was totally taken off guard.

他没想到会发生这样的事，但确实发生了。

He didn't think this could happen, but it did.

因此他不得不派遣几支不同的部队东进对抗阿维狄乌斯·卡西乌斯。

So he had to send several different lesions east to face Avidius Cassius.

当消息传出马可并未垂死、他还活着并派兵镇压卡西乌斯叛乱时，卡西乌斯的部下杀死了他。

Well, when word came out that Marcus wasn't dying and he wasn't dead and he was sending troops to put down Cassius' revolt, Cassius' own men killed him.

因此马可无需亲自处理惩罚事宜。

And so Marcus didn't have to deal with punishment there.

但还有其他支持阿维狄乌斯·卡西乌斯的人。

But there were others who had supported Avedius Cassius.

马可确保销毁了相关通信记录，因为他并不打算猎杀这些人来处决。

And Marcus made sure that his correspondence was burned because he was not gonna go headhunting to try to find people to execute.

这表明马可展现了宽容的一面。

So that suggests, you know, leniency on Marcus' part.

对其他人，他选择流放而非处决。

Others, he chose to exile rather than execute.

因此马可的哲学思想具有世界主义色彩，这些措施似乎正是这种理念的体现。

So Marcus' philosophy is cosmopolitan as, you know, seems to manifest itself in those sorts of measures.

我还想问，随着他年岁渐长、临近死亡，我们是否能从他的著作中察觉到什么？

I'd also like to ask, as he gets older and as his death is nearing, do we get any sense, like, from his writings?

他生命最后阶段还有留下任何记录吗？

Are there any very late entries in his life?

我们能看到他语气的变化吗？

Do we see a change in tone?

他是否在著作中越来越多地思考自己的死亡，以及随着死亡临近他对死亡的看法？

Does he start thinking more and more about his own mortality and his own death in his writings and how he views death as it nears?

在备忘录中，死亡是一个非常常见的主题。

Death is a very common refrain in the memoranda.

但我要先说明，对于斯多葛学派来说，每日思考死亡是所有斯多葛信徒极为普遍的修行。

But I should preface that by saying that for Stoics, reflecting on death, for all Stoics, reflecting on death daily is an extremely common practice.

所以并非只有年老时才该思考生命的有限性。

So it's not just when you're old that you ought to think about your mortality.

每个人都应该每天思考自己生命的有限性，以及所爱之人、朋友乃至每一株植物和动物的有限生命。

It's everyone should think about his or her mortality every day and the mortality of your loved ones and the mortality of your friends and the mortality of every plant and animal.

所以记住死亡，这就是那句箴言，对吧？

So remember death, the that's the saying, right?

是的，我们在备忘录中也确实看到了这一点。

So yes we do see that in the memoranda as well.

马库斯还写了许多对人类躯体极为负面的描述。

And Marcus has a number of entries which are very negative descriptions of the human body.

皮囊中的口臭。

Bad breath in a sack of skin.

皮囊中令人作呕的血管、血液和骨头。

Disgusting veins and blood and bones in a sack of skin.

对吧？

Right?

因此马库斯并没有美化肉体。

So the the body is not glorified rather by Marcus.

对吧？

Right?

他意识到自己已经度过了足够充实的一生。

And he recognizes that he's lived a full enough life.

他已经58岁，快59岁了。

He's, you know, 58 years old, going on almost 59.

对吧？

Right?

但卢修斯·维鲁斯已经去世了。

But Lucius Verus is already dead.

他信任的将军阿维狄乌斯·卡西乌斯也已离世。

Avidius Cassius, his trusted general is already dead.

他有十几个孩子夭折。

He's lost a dozen of his children to death.

马可和特鲁斯蒂娜的许多孩子都没能活到成年。

Many many many of Marcus and Trustina's children did not live to adulthood.

包括康茂德在内，只有四个孩子活到了成年。

Only four of them lived to be adults including Commodus.

因此马可经常思考自己身体的脆弱和生命的有限。

So Marcus does reflect on his own body and its own frailty and his own mortality a lot.

所以他明白自己不会永生，必须做好准备。

And so he knows that he's not gonna live forever and he needs to be ready.

于是他培养唯一存活的儿子康茂德作为继承人，并效仿自己年轻时与养兄共治的做法，将康茂德提升为年轻的共治皇帝以准备权力交接。

And so he's grooming his only surviving son Commodus to be his successor and having had his adoptive brother as co emperor when he was a younger man, he elevates Commodus to be a young co emperor of his to prepare for the succession.

这本身就是一个重大转变，因为要知道，自上次真正由皇帝之子继承皇位以来，已经过去了半个多世纪。

And this is a step change in its own right because it's been, you know, more than half a century since an actual son of an emperor is primed to take over as the next emperor.

所以这是接下来的步骤。

So this is the next step.

当然，康茂德因雷德利·斯科特2000年的电影《角斗士》中由华金·菲尼克斯饰演而闻名——或者说臭名昭著，他被认为是古罗马最声名狼藉的皇帝之一。

And, of course, Commodus famous or shall we say infamous from Ridley Scott's Gladiator 2,000 movie, Joaquin Phoenix, and the like, you know, he gets reputation as one of the most infamous Roman emperors of all time.

关键问题是，你认为马可·奥勒留临终时是否担心过康茂德？

The big question is, I mean, do you think Marcus Aurelius worried about Commodus when he died?

你认为他在康茂德成长过程中是否预见到了潜在问题？

Do you think he saw potential problems with Commodus when he was growing up or not?

关于这点我们知道些什么？

What do we know about that?

似乎有些迹象表明确实如此。

It seems like there is some suggestion of that.

后世作家记载了一篇据称是马可临终前的演说，被呈现为他临终时对最亲近圈子的告别辞。

There is this putative speech that a subsequent author wrote that is supposed to be is offered as Marcus' final words, his kind of farewell speech to his closest circle as he's, you know, basically on his deathbed.

他恳切地请求那些受信任的顾问和专家们帮助康茂德，提醒他牢记责任、生命有限与人性弱点——就像马可当年接受哲学导师教诲那样。

And he implores, he urgently entreats his trusted advisers and experts, right, to help Commodus, to remind him of his responsibilities and his mortality and his finitude as Marcus had been reminded by his philosophy teachers, right?

因为康茂德当时还只是个青少年，需要像马可成长过程中那些导师的指引。

By his mentors that he had learned when he was growing up because Commodus is just a teenager.

而康茂德确实沉迷于角斗表演和竞技比赛。

And so Commodus, he enjoyed the gladiatorial action, the bouts.

对吧？

Right?

他，他更像是卢修斯·维鲁斯那样，喜欢竞技游戏。

He he was kind of more like Lucius Verus in that He liked the games.

他喜欢娱乐活动。

He liked the entertainments.

他喜欢角斗表演。

He liked the gladiatorial action.

而马可意识到，这种嗜好血腥运动的品味对一位帝王来说并不好。

And Marcus recognized that that taste for that kind of blood sport is not good in an emperor.

所以马可，我们必须想到，他看到了自己儿子康茂德的性格缺陷和弱点，希望他信任的顾问们能帮助康茂德走上明智之路，在统治中追求正义与公平。

So Marcus, we have to think, right, that he saw the character flaws, the weaknesses in his own son Commodus, and he wanted his trusted advisors to help Commodus steer the wise path and pursue justice and fairness in his rule.

但马可一旦去世，就完全无法控制康茂德了。

But once Marcus was dead, he had no power to control Commodus whatsoever.

这完全不是他能掌控的事。

That was something very, very much not up to him.

再次没有任何谋杀的迹象，对吧？

And there's no inkling once again of foul play, is there?

是否有这种说法：马可是寿终正寝，或者说相对那个时代而言平静离世，尤其对一位帝王来说？

Is there is this idea that Marcus, he dies of old age or he dies peacefully, relatively peacefully for the time, especially for an emperor?

59岁时，他可能也是死于瘟疫。

At age 59, he might have died of the plague as well.

哦，好吧。

Oh, okay.

有意思。

Interesting.

他一生都患有呼吸系统疾病。

He had respiratory trouble throughout his life.

他服用了Theriak，这种由盖伦为他调配的古怪物质。

He took Theriak, this bizarre substance that Galen mixed up for him.

它具有成瘾性，因为含有鸦片和蝰蛇肉，以及数十种其他成分。

And it was addictive because it contained opium and it contained viper flesh and dozens and dozens of other ingredients.

在马可时代及之前，它被用作预防中毒的药剂，毕竟皇帝可能因此被下毒或暗杀。

And it had been used in Marcus' day and before as prevention against poison because of course emperors could be poisoned and assassinated that way.

但马可需要它来控制睡眠，因此他饱受失眠之苦。

But Marcus needed it to manage his sleep, and so he suffered from insomnia.

所以，如果我们称之为药物的话，盖伦给马可使用的这种药物其实非常不完善。

So again, this is a very imperfect kind of medicine if we wanna call it that, that Galen was administering to Marcus.

马可很可能感染了瘟疫病原体。

And Marcus could very well have contracted the plague, the the pathogen.

那很可能就是他的死因。

That could very well have been what killed him.

但回答你的问题，就谋杀而言，没有证据表明马可是被谋杀的。

But to answer your question, in terms of foul play, there's no evidence that Marcus was murdered.

尽管有证据让一些历史学家认为，他可能患有一种极其严重且痛苦的疾病，以至于医生可能对他实施了安乐死。

Although some evidence suggests to some historians that he might have been suffering from an illness that was so devastating and so painful to him that his doctors may have euthanized him.

哇。

Wow.

参见安乐死。

See euthanasia.

这是某些历史学家热衷的推测。

That's a speculation that some historians indulge in.

这是有可能的，

That's possible,

我想是的。

I suppose.

我本可以问更多问题，但我不打算再问了，因为已经占用了你太多时间。

I can ask so many more questions, but I'm not going to because we used up so much of your time.

我们完全可以做一整期节目来探讨马可·奥勒留的遗产，以及他如何激励人们直至今日。

And we could do a whole episode on the legacy of Marcus Aurelius and how he's inspired people down to the present day.

但我会把它作为一个总体性的总结问题来提出。

But I will ask it more as an overarching summary question.

马可·奥勒留去世了。

Marcus Aurelius dies.

他随后被神化了对吧？这种神化观念在当时对皇帝来说很常见。

He becomes a god, doesn't he, following it, that apotheosis idea that was common of emperors at the time.

我们是否知道他在罗马留下了什么遗产？以及这份遗产如何跨越数个世纪延续至今？

Do we know what legacy he holds in Rome and then how that legacy endures down through all of the centuries to the present day.

在其统治期间及此后不久，马可备受推崇。

During his reign and soon thereafter, Marcus was celebrated.

正如你之前提到的，他被历史学家誉为最后一位贤君。

He was championed as, as you mentioned earlier, one of the the last good emperor, as historians call him.

罗马建有他的凯旋柱，柱身外部雕刻着螺旋上升的浮雕场景。

He has the Triumphal Column in Rome that was built that has the scenes depicting spiraling up its exterior.

他在北方战争中的所有战役，包括戏剧性的事件，比如所谓的降雨奇迹——当时一群被困的罗马士兵因干渴濒临死亡，且被敌军包围，这场雨扭转了战局。

All of his campaigns in the northern wars, including dramatic things like the so called rain miracle that turned a battle around a group of trapped Roman soldiers was dying of thirst, and they were surrounded.

随后出现了这场神奇的雷暴，他们用头盔接水，饮马自救，最终幸存下来。

And then there was this miraculous thunderstorm, and they caught water from their helmets, and they watered their horses in themselves and survived.

后来的作家们会说这是基督徒的功劳，因为他们向自己的神祈祷，然后天降甘霖。

And later authors would say it was the Christians who deserve the credit because they prayed to their god, and then it rained.

但多神教徒们当然会说：不。

But then the polytheists, of course, say, no.

这是异教神祇们引发的奇迹。

It was the it was the pagan gods who who caused the redefault.

当然，还有那座雕像。

And then, of course, there's statue.

马库斯伟大的骑马雕像至今仍矗立在罗马。

The great equestrian statue of Marcus that's still in Rome.

这类纪念马库斯的纪念碑表明，他的统治受到赞颂，人们爱戴并尊敬他在瘟疫和北方战争中的竭力治理。

These sorts of monuments to Marcus suggest that his rule, his reign was celebrated, that he was loved and respected in managing the best he could, the plague and all of these northern wars.

甚至在几个世纪后，他被封圣。

He was even sanctified centuries later.

这里有个有趣的弧线——中世纪时，基督徒因马库斯体现的基督教美德（仁慈、正直、公正，以及为联邦无私统治，即为他人福祉）而接纳他，尤其推崇他注重内在美德：做个善良、正直、勇敢且智慧的人。

So there's an interesting kind of arc here where in the Middle Ages, Marcus was embraced by the Christians for what they saw as his Christian virtues of mercy and decency and justice and selfless rule for the Commonwealth, right, for the good of others, and above all, the inward looking emphasis on virtues, right, being a good person, being just and courageous and wise.

事实上，尽管是异教的虔诚，他对神明的崇拜与敬仰，以及试图以敬神方式生活的态度，被基督教作家们接纳并转化了数百年。

And his piety, in fact, right, even though it's a pagan piety, his adoration of the gods, his veneration of the gods in trying to live in a godly way himself was embraced and transformed by Christian authors for centuries.

数百年来，他被众多基督教作家封圣，但后来人们开始质疑：等等，那些迫害事件呢？

He was sanctified by many, many Christian authors for centuries, and then later that kind of turned into, but wait a second, what about the persecutions?

那么贾斯汀·马特尔呢？

What about Justin Martyr?

那些在他统治期间被处决的基督徒又该如何解释？

What about the Christians who were executed during his regime?

后来这个历史时刻被用来指责马库斯迫害基督徒。

And then this later historical moment was turned to blaming Marcus for persecuting the Christians.

于是事情又回到了原点。

So then it kind of went full circle again.

如今我认为大多数人都认同我的评估：马库斯并非直接负责迫害基督徒的人。

And then now these days I think most people agree with my assessment that Marcus was not directly responsible for persecuting the Christians.

是那些行省总督们在尽力而为——或者说在处理民众对基督徒的敌意方面做得并不出色。

It was the provincial governors who were doing the best they could or maybe not doing a very good job of handling this popular antipathy against the Christians.

这就是几个世纪以来他声誉的变化过程，但他的哲学思想《沉思录》却比以往任何时候都更受推崇，从安娜·肯德里克到罗里·麦克罗伊都在研读。

So that's how his reputation has kind of changed over the centuries, but his philosophy, the memoranda, stronger than ever embraced by everyone from Anna Kendrick to Rory McElroy.

据说高尔夫球手罗里·麦克罗伊——那位出色的运动员——会通过阅读马库斯来平复心情。

Apparently, Rory McElroy, the golfer, the excellent golfer, uses Marcus to calm down.

当然，比尔·克林顿也据称在文教伯时期通过阅读《沉思录》受益匪浅。

And Bill Clinton, of course, is reputed to have benefited from reading the meditations at Wenjiao Bo.

这就是当今马库斯的各类追随者们。

So the the various people who Marcus fans these days.

嗯，我记得去年左右不是有个流行话题吗，问人们多久会想到罗马帝国？

Well and I think there was that trend, wasn't there, a a year or so ago about how often do you think about the Roman Empire?

我想确实如此。

And I think Yes.

可能会有相当多的男性，你知道，他们会选择斯多葛主义。

Probably be quite a few men, you know, who are going into stoicism.

他们中许多人首先想到的不会是罗德岛，不会是引水渠，而是马可·奥勒留和他的沉思，因为我认为确实如此。

Many of them the first thing they'll think of won't be Rhodes, it won't be Aqueducts, it will be Marcus Aurelius and his musings because I think it is.

我认为马可·奥勒留的《沉思录》——我还是会这么称呼它，因为它广为人知——已经超越了凯撒的《高卢战记》和内战史，成为从古典时代至今最受欢迎的古代历史著作。

I think it's topped Julius Caesar's Gallic Wars and his civil wars that Marcus Aurelius' memoranda, I'll still say Meditations because it's it's it's well known, is the most popular book from ancient history down to the present day from the classical world.

是这样吗？

Is that correct?

是的。

Yeah.

几个世纪以来有太多不同的版本，太多不同的译本，而且你可以理解为什么。

There have been so many different editions, so many different translations one century after the next after the next, and and you can see why.

我的意思是，他是一位哲学家国王。

I mean, he he was a philosopher king.

我是说，这就是我这本书的标题。

I mean, this is the title of my book.

他是一位哲学家国王，但和柏拉图描述的那种不太一样。

He was a philosopher king, but not quite the way that Plato describes Plato Plato.

是的。

Yeah.

那是柏拉图的方式，

That's the Plato way,

不是吗？

isn't he?

哲学家皇帝。

Philosopher king.

对吧？

Right?

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，马可斯对自己的哲学能力非常谦虚，这很有趣，然而现在他的思想经常在哲学课堂上被教授。

I mean, Marcus is very modest about his own philosophical abilities, interestingly enough, and yet he's taught in philosophy classrooms routinely now.

像我这样教授马可斯思想三十年的教授数量，远不及那些转向马可斯以整理思绪、反思生命有限性、并认识到应专注于可控之事的斯多葛实践者数量。

And the number of professors who were teaching Marcus to their students as I did for thirty years is dwarfed by the number of stoic practitioners who turn to Marcus to try to get their own minds in order and reflect on their own mortality and recognize that they should focus their energies on what's up to them, not what's not up to them.

威廉，这是结束本期节目的美好方式。

William, that is a lovely way to wrap up this episode.

最后但同样重要的是，你那本关于罗马历史上这位巨人的书叫什么来着？

Last but certainly not least, your book all about this titanic emperor of Roman history, it is called?

《马可·奥勒留，哲学家皇帝》。

Marcus Aurelius, philosopher king.

太棒了。

Brilliant.

威廉，最后我想说非常感谢你今天抽空来参加播客。

William, just goes for me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today.

谢谢你，特里斯坦。

Thank you, Tristan.

我非常享受这次对话。

I enjoyed it very much.

好了，就这样吧。

Well, there you go.

刚才威廉·史蒂文斯教授为大家讲解了马可·奥勒留的生平及其哲学思想。

There was professor William Stevens talking you through the life of Marcus Aurelius and his philosophy.

希望你喜欢这期节目。

I hope you enjoyed the episode.

是时候讲述这位著名皇帝和他传奇著作《沉思录》的故事了，或者我们或许该称之为'备忘录'。

It's about time we covered the story of this famous emperor and his legendary work, The Meditations, or as maybe we should say, the memoranda.

希望你喜欢这期节目。

I hope you enjoyed the episode.

感谢收听。

Thank you for listening.

请在Spotify或其他播客平台关注'The Ancients'。

Please follow the ancients on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

这对我们帮助很大，你将帮我们一个大忙。

That really helps us, and you'll be doing us a big favor.

如果你喜欢本期节目，还望不吝给予好评，我们将不胜感激。

If you'd also be kind enough to leave us a lovely rating as well if you enjoyed the episode, then we'd really appreciate that.

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Don't forget, you can also listen to us and all of History Hit's podcasts ad free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com/subscribe.

我要说的就这些。

That's all from me.

我们下期节目再见。

I will see you in the next episode.