Roman Toilets

你有没有想过，罗马人为什么会在条顿堡森林惨败？

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史前爱尔兰的土地下，埋藏着哪些不为人知的秘密？

What secrets lie buried in prehistoric Ireland?

又是什么让亚历山大大帝真正成为伟人？

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你好，欢迎收看《古代世界》最新一期节目，今天我们来聊聊罗马的基础设施。

Hello, and welcome to this latest episode of the ancients where we're going back into the wonderful world of Roman infrastructure.

之前我们讲过引水渠。

We've done aqueducts.

我们讲过道路了。

We've done roads.

现在轮到厕所了。

Now we're doing toilets.

正如你们所要求的，你们想多了解一些罗马基础设施，我们这就安排上。

As per your request, you are asking us to do more on Roman infrastructure, and we are delivering.

罗马厕所这个话题确实有点脏，但特别有意思。

Now the wonderful world of Roman toilets is quite a dirty subject, but also it's fascinating.

还有那根棍子上绑着海绵的故事，等等好多内容。

The sponge on the stick story and so much more.

去一趟罗马的公共厕所，到底是什么体验？

Just what was it like to visit one of these Roman communal toilets?

接下来，让我们欢迎来自伦敦罗尔德·霍洛威大学的汉娜·普拉茨博士，带我们一探究竟。

You're about to find out with our wonderful guest, doctor Hannah Platts from Roald Holloway University of London.

希望你们会喜欢。

I really do hope you enjoy.

我们开始吧。

Let's go.

厕所。

Toilets.

虽然不如宏伟的公路、漂亮的浴场或壮观的引水渠那么耀眼，但罗马的厕所同样是不可或缺的基础设施。

Less glamorous than the great roads, the beautiful bath houses, or grand aqueducts, but a vital Roman infrastructure nonetheless, naturally.

在罗马帝国各地，无论是普通百姓、元老院议员、奴隶还是士兵，都使用公共厕所。

Latrines and toilets were all across the Roman Empire used by everyday citizens, senators, slaves, and soldiers alike.

但我们到底对这些厕所了解多少呢？

But what do we actually know about them?

去一趟罗马的公共厕所是什么体验？ sights、气味、有没有隐私，全都没有？

What was it like to go to a Roman communal toilet, the sights, the smells, the privacy, or lack of?

不同地区的人用的厕所，会不会有差别？

And how could they differ depending on where you lived in the empire?

那个绑在棍子上的海绵，真有这回事吗？

Was the sponge on a stick really a thing?

这么多问题，接下来都会一一为你揭晓精彩答案。

So many questions with so many awesome answers coming your way.

今天我们要讲的是罗马厕所的故事，特邀嘉宾是汉娜·普拉茨博士。

This is the story of Roman toilets with our guest, doctor Hannah Platts.

汉娜，今天能请到你来做客，真是非常荣幸。

Hannah, it is such a pleasure to have you on the podcast today.

能来这儿太棒了。

Fantastic to be here.

非常感谢你邀请我。

Thank you so much for asking me.

提到罗马的基础设施，大家通常都会想到道路、引水渠或者浴场。

When people mention Roman infrastructure, normally people go to, like, the roads or the aqueducts or or the baths.

但厕所，同样是罗马基础设施中至关重要的一环。

But toilets, they were another key part of Roman infrastructure.

对吧？

Right?

是的

Yeah.

当然

Absolutely.

它们确实是基础性的设施

They really were fundamental.

非常重要

Very, very important.

在罗马城镇里，厕所的设计会不会因为你在帝国的哪个地方而有所不同呢？

And in regards to toilets in a Roman town, did their design very much depend on where in the empire you were, where you were posted?

好

Okay.

这个问题其实很有意思，因为罗马帝国各地的厕所确实存在差异，而且有很多因素会影响它们的样式、布局和建造方式

So this is a really interesting question because toilets did vary across the empire, and actually there were quite a lot of elements that impacted how they would feature, how they would appear, how they were developed.

特别是影响厕所建设的因素，比如当地的地质条件，还有文化习俗、社会规范这些，都会决定是否建厕所，或者怎么使用厕所之类的

In particular, the things that impacted their development were actually things like the geological aspects of where they were being located, and also the sort of cultural norms or social and cultural aspects that might impact whether you build a toilet or how you use a toilet and things like that.

所以在整个帝国范围内，确实有几样东西会影响厕所的建设和使用。

So there were actually a couple of things that could impact toilet development and usage across the across the empire.

气候因素也会产生影响吗？还是说主要只跟当地的文化习俗和地质条件有关？

And does climate also come into that, or is it just strictly normally kind of local cultures and geology?

说实话，主要还是地质方面的考量，其次是风俗习惯和社会规范。

Mostly, to be honest, it is rather more about particularly geological concerns, and then customs and social norms.

地质条件之所以至关重要，是因为它直接关系到废物如何处理和排放。

And the reason the geological conditions are actually fundamental, it's because about how you're gonna get rid of the waste.

这才是最根本的原因。

That's the actual fundamental.

那我举几个例子，说说地质条件不同会怎么影响厕所的设计。

So I guess if I can give you just a couple of examples about how it might differ in terms of the geology of a site.

比如庞贝古城，很多人要么去过，要么听说过，它是个城镇。

So if we take, for example, Pompeii, which a lot of people either have visited or know about, Pompeii is a town.

它是建在山坡上的。

It was built on a slope.

这就意味着雨水和污水都能比较容易地排走。

So that in itself means that rainwater, wastewater could be pretty easily got rid of.

比如雨水、街边喷泉溢出的水，都会顺着坡道的街道流下去。

So, you know, water from the rain, overflow from street fountains, would actually flow down the sloping streets.

然后通过城门排到城外。

That would then be got rid of out through the city gates.

庞贝城地下的土壤本身也相对透水，能在一定程度上吸收一部分水分、尿液，甚至可能还有一些粪便都被这种透水性较好的土壤吸收了。

The soil, the subsoil on which Pompeii was built was also actually relatively permeable, so it could absorb, to a certain extent, some level of water, some amount of urine, perhaps even some poo might also be absorbed by that sort of relatively permeable soil.

庞贝的厕所都连着化粪池，因为化粪池的建造方式和所处的土壤环境，能让如厕产生的液体部分渗入地下，固体废物则留在池子里，等池子快满了再清理。

And these toilets in Pompeii, they were connected to cesspits because the cesspits were built and the way they were built and the soil they were built into would allow the liquid element of going to the loo to seep away and the solid material would remain in the cesspit itself, and then that would be emptied as and when the cesspit would then fill up.

其实庞贝是有下水道的，但并不是一套完整的系统。

So the thing is that Pompe did have a sewer, but not a complete network.

它只有一些分支管道，专门处理像浴场排出的大量污水这类问题。

It had branches that would deal with certain things, like getting rid of large amounts of wastewater from the baths, for example.

但在庞贝，下水道的作用其实非常有限。

But actually in Pompeii, sewers played really quite a sort of small role.

反过来，如果我们再看看邻近的赫库兰尼姆，虽然它也在那不勒斯湾附近，但情况很不一样。

Conversely, if we look at a really nearby town of Herculaneum again, similar area on the Bay Of Naples But Herculaneum's quite different.

没错，它建在斜坡上。

Yes, it's built on a slope.

所以这同样有助于排出污水。

So again, that's useful for getting rid of wastewater.

但地下的情况却截然不同。

But the ground itself is very different.

土壤非常紧密。

The ground is compact.

土壤不透水。

The ground is not permeable.

也不多孔。

It's not porous.

如果用化粪池的话，很快就会填满。

So if you were going to use a cesspit, it would fill up really quickly.

什么东西都不会渗下去。

Nothing would really seep away.

事实上，有一栋叫‘黑屋’的房子，墙上还留着一段特别完整的涂鸦或留言。

And in fact, actually, there's a really good graffiti or note written on a wall of one house, the so called house of The Black Room.

上面提到，化粪池刚清过，花了十一个阿西迪的费用。

And it mentions that the cesspit has been emptied for 11 acids, the cost of 11 acids.

明白了。

Right.

好的。

Okay.

所以不是清了十一个屁股。

So not 11 behinds then.

好的。

Okay.

这正好说明了我的观点。

And that's I'm actually going go Exactly the right.

不是十一个屁股。

Not 11 behinds.

不，完全不是。

No, absolutely.

但关键是，赫库兰尼姆的人其实不得不开始修建下水道系统，厕所也开始接入这个系统。

But the thing is, so what they needed to do in Herculaneum was actually they did have to start building in a sewage system and the toilets then began to be connected to the sewage system.

这样一来，居民就能把自家厕所连到下水道，排泄物会直接通过城镇的管道流走。

And that allowed the inhabitants to connect their toilets to the sewage system and their waste would flow directly through the town's sewers.

我可以再举个例子，这次是奥斯蒂亚，情况又不一样。

I guess if I can just give you one other example that again is different is Ostia.

奥斯蒂亚是古罗马的港口。

So Ostia is the ancient port of Rome.

它的地质结构也很特别，因为地势平坦。

It's, again, got very different geological structures because it was flat.

建在一片平坦的沙丘上。

It was built on flat sand dunes.

镇子中央其实有个凹陷区域。

It actually had a depression in the middle of the town.

所以废水、喷泉的水和雨水都没法排走。

So wastewater, fountain waters, rainwater couldn't flow away.

奥斯蒂亚的地下水位，比庞贝和赫库兰尼姆高得多。

And the water level, the water table, is actually much higher in Ostia than, say, in Pompeii and Herculaneum.

离地面大概只有两米左右。

It's only about two metres or so below street level.

所以化粪池根本行不通。

So cesspits aren't a good idea.

雨水根本没法轻易排掉。

You can't get rid of the rainwater easily.

化粪池根本行不通。

Cesspits aren't a good idea.

因此从一开始，就必须铺设一套完整的下水道系统。

So what it meant was right from the get go, actually a sewage system needed to be laid out.

结果就是这样。

And that's what we get.

从奥斯塔建城之初，这套系统就已经建好了，之后也一直得到维护和修缮。

We see this being laid out pretty much from the start of Ostia's development, and it's being maintained and repaired over time.

所以罗马人能根据所处的地理环境来设计排污系统，这一点真的特别有意思。

So that's why it's actually really interesting that Romans understood the need to deal with their waste according to the geographical situations in which they found themselves.

说实话，这确实很有趣，我本人可能也犯过这种想当然的错误，一开始还以为……

I mean, it's so interesting because maybe I say myself as a guilty culprit, I might have immediately thought, oh, okay.

意大利各地的公共厕所设计，大概都差不多吧，毕竟都在庞大的罗马帝国版图内。

So the the classic toilet designs across Italy would presumably be have been all quite similar because they're actually in the great expanse of the Roman Empire.

它们彼此离得近，风格也相近，但要是跟哈德良长城上的罗马军营厕所比，那就完全不同了。

They were all quite close together, and they'd be but they'd be very different to, let's say, toilets up on Hadrian's Wall on a a Roman fort on Hadrian's Wall.

但你刚才说的，汉娜，几乎完全相反。

But what you're saying there, Hannah, is almost the complete opposite.

真正关键的，其实是当地具体的地质条件。

It's it's the fact it depends on the actual geology of the place that is located that is central.

并不是说，附近有好几座城市，它们的厕所系统就一定完全一样。

It's not the fact that if there are several cities located close by, then their toilet systems are going to be exactly the same.

不，完全不是这样。

No, no, absolutely.

事实上，我们在哈德良长城上看到的例子，还有其他一些军事要地，那些公共厕所的布局，跟奥地利的、庞贝的，或者其他地方的公共厕所几乎一模一样。

And in fact, you know, the examples we've got on Hadrian's Wall, and we do have examples on Hadrian's Wall and in other sort of strong military sites, we do actually have communal toilets that pretty much resemble communal toilets in Austria or communal toilets are set up in Pompeii or communal toilets are set up elsewhere.

所以从外观上看，它们其实差别不大。

So visually, they actually don't look that different.

真正需要考虑的，是粪便怎么处理，这才是关键。

It is just the getting rid of the waste that you really need to think about, that they really needed to think about.

安娜，这真的太有意思了。

Anna, it's so interesting.

我每次去哈尔斯泰德，游客们最感兴趣的，就是罗马堡垒右下角的厕所。

And I always remember whenever I go to Halsteads, the most popular part of the Roman fort is seeing the latrines in the bottom right hand corner.

这真的特别有意思。

It's it's really, really interesting.

你刚才提到一些我们今天常跟罗马人联系在一起的重要考古遗址，比如庞贝、赫库兰尼姆。

You've mentioned there, like, kind of key archaeological sites we associate with the Romans today, like Pompeii, like Herculaneum.

那么，考古学对我们今天了解罗马人的厕所及其运作方式是不是至关重要的？

So is archaeology absolutely central for us today to learn more about Roman toilets and how they function?

是的。

Yes.

我认为，就我们所掌握的证据而言，考古学对于研究厕所至关重要。

I think archeology is absolutely crucial in terms of the evidence that we have for toilets.

当我们试图理解罗马人的厕所系统时，有大量的实物资料可以帮助我们还原当时如厕的习惯和场景。

When we're thinking about understanding the Roman toilet system, there's a huge amount of material culture that we can draw on to build up an understanding, to build up a picture of toilet habits.

比如说，最直接的当然是那些厕所本身的遗迹。

So, I mean, for example, if you think about it, one thing we obviously can look at are the toilets themselves.

特里斯坦，你之前提到过那些公共厕所，我想我们很快就会详细讨论这个话题。

And Tristan, you've mentioned the communal toilets that I'm sure we will talk about shortly.

当然了。

Oh, absolutely.

你也可以看看单个的马桶。

You can also look at the individual toilets.

当时确实有个人用的马桶，我们待会儿也会谈到这些。

There were individual toilets, I'm sure we'll be talking about those as well.

所以你可以观察这些马桶，我们手头有不少实例。

So you can look at the toilets, and we have examples of those.

事实上，特别有意思的是，今天还能保存下来的马桶，大多是石头做的，有些甚至是大理石的，你想想看。

In fact, actually what's really interesting is obviously the toilets that remain to us today that have lasted, they tend to be the ones made of either stone or indeed in some cases, marble, imagine that.

非常奢华，没错。

Very lavish, yep.

说得对，完全正确，坐在大理石马桶上。

Exactly right, exactly right, sitting on a marble toilet.

我们也知道，他们当时用的马桶是木制的，或者马桶的某些部分，比如座板，可能是木头的。但木材是有机材料，容易腐烂，所以今天几乎找不到任何残留痕迹了。

We do know also that they would have and would use wooden toilets, or indeed parts of the toilet might be wooden, like a wooden loo seat, for example, but of course wood being an organic material decays, and so we don't necessarily have much of the remains, if any of the remains at all today.

所以我们可以从马桶本身寻找证据，但也不只靠马桶这一种东西。

But so we can look to the toilets themselves for evidence, But we don't just have to rely on toilets.

其实我们还能看到很多其他东西。

There's actually a lot of other things that we can look at.

比如，我们可以看到排污通道，还有垃圾处理区域。

So, for example, we can see waste shoots, We can see sort of disposal areas.

我们还能看到马桶座的安装痕迹，或者墙上用来嵌入马桶座的凹槽，这些都能帮助我们判断这个房间曾经是厕所。

We can see toilet seats or niches in the walls where toilet seats would have slotted in that help us understand that that particular room may have had a toilet within it.

特别是在公共厕所里，我们可以看到地面上的排水沟，当年水流就从如厕者脚边流过。

In the communal toilets in particular, we can see evidence of the gullies that had water that would be flowing at the feet of the people using the toilets.

在庞贝，我们甚至发现了从楼上通下来的排污管道，它们直接嵌在墙里。

In Pompeii, we actually have the evidence of waste pipes from upstairs that are actually built into the walls.

我们还保留着一些排污管道的残骸，它们清楚地告诉我们当时的情况。

We've got the remnants of waste pipes that actually highlight to us.

有些住宅确实有楼上的厕所。

There were some residences that had upstairs toilets.

真是太惊人了。

How fantastic.

所以，你也可以从这个角度来观察。

So, you you can look at that as well.

这些确实能帮我们拼出一幅关于如厕习惯和厕所位置的完整图景。

That really does build up a picture of toilet habits and where they might have been located.

不过话说回来，光靠考古发现还不足以勾勒出这幅图景。

I guess on the other side of that, it's not just the archaeology that builds us that picture.

作为古代史学者和考古学家，如果我们想真正理解古代世界，就必须准备好利用一切可用的证据。

You know, fundamentally, as an ancient historian and an archaeologist, we have to if we're trying to understand the ancient world, we need to be prepared to use whatever evidence we can.

我常对学生说，这种时候可挑不了那么多，有啥用啥。

Yeah, I always say to my students, yeah, beggars can't be choosers in this situation.

你得抓住任何能拿到的证据。

You have to take whatever evidence you can get hold of.

真正难得的是，我们不仅能从实物中了解厕所和如厕行为，还能知道他们怎么处理排泄物。

And so actually what's superb is we get evidence about toilets and toilet usage and what they did with their waste.

文献资料里也有相关记载，来自古代的文字材料。

We get evidence from the texts as well, from the written materials.

无论是像马歇尔这样的作家写的讽刺诗，还是像小塞内卡这样的作家写的道德训诫文本，我们甚至还能找到农事著作，里面详细教你怎么堆粪肥、用粪便给田地施肥。

So whether that is the satirical poetry of authors like Marshall or the moralizing texts of authors like Seneca the Younger, we even get agrarian treatises that say, you know, tell you how to construct the right dungheep and use the feces to fertilize your fields.

哦，天哪。

Oh, wow.

明白了。

Okay.

这回收做得真到位。

Good recycling right there.

典型的罗马风格。

Roman style.

没错。

Oh, yeah.

我们甚至还能从法律文书和书信中找到线索，了解到有些人因为犯错被罚去清理厕所。

We can even look to legislative evidence and and letters, and we we actually hear about how some people were punished by being made to clean toilets.

明白了。

Okay.

所以，通过各种各样的证据，我们可以对古罗马的如厕习惯有相当深入的了解。

So you can learn quite a lot about Rome's toilet habits from quite a wide variety of evidence.

真有意思，一方面那些哲学家，比如小塞内卡，可能正沉思着厕所，想着这背后反映的社会意义。

Oh, so interesting, isn't it, to have on one hand that philosophers or, imagine like Seneca the younger there, maybe, you know, thinking pensively about toilets or whatever, how it reflects on society.

另一方面，又有农业文献教你如何把粪便回收利用，来给庄稼施肥。

And then you get agrarian treaties on the other hand saying how you can recycle poo to help, you know, your crops or whatever.

这太棒了。

That's great.

所以你有文学方面的证据。

So you have the literature evidence.

你有考古发现。

You have the archaeology.

你之前还提到过那些涂鸦，我觉得特别有意思。

And you also mentioned earlier, which I found fascinating examples of graffiti.

那我们有没有铭文方面的资料呢？

So do we have epigraphy too?

我们确实有。

So we do actually.

我们确实有一些涂鸦。

We do have bits of graffiti.

有一些非常奇特、特别有趣的例子。

We have some very strange, very funny examples.

有个地方的厕所墙上写着：皇帝提图斯的御医在这里摔了一跤。

There's one in toilet where it actually says, The physician of the emperor Titus cracked here, written on the wall of a toilet.

太棒了。

Oh, brilliant.

对。

Yeah.

我们还有铭文证据。

We have inscriptional evidence.

我们有很多关于人们如厕习惯的趣闻。

We have all sorts of stories about people's toilet habits.

这就是为什么‘共情性医生’这个说法一直流传到今天。

And that's how the physician of empathitis has come down to us today.

太神奇了。

That's amazing.

确实如此。

Indeed.

你之前其实提到过这一点，不过我们再重复一遍，好把罗马厕所的主要类型和考古发现的厕所形式都梳理清楚。

You kind of highlighted it earlier, but let's do it again to kind of cover the main bases that we have with Roman toilets and the main types of toilets that come down to us today archaeologically.

汉娜，古罗马时期主要有哪几种厕所？

Hannah, what are the main types of toilets that they had in Roman times?

主要分两种：公共厕所和私人厕所。

So the main types are communal toilets and individual toilets.

关键是，随着罗马帝国的扩张，厕所这种设施也跟着遍布了整个帝国。

The thing is that actually when we're thinking about sort of how the Roman empire spread, it spread widely, and actually we see the spread of toilets spreading through the empire as well.

帝国扩张到哪里，厕所就跟着建到哪里。

And, you know, as the empire grew, so did the spread of toilets across the empire.

罗马人带来了道路，带来了引水渠，也带来了厕所。

So the Romans bring the roads, they bring the aqueducts, and they bring the toilets as well.

所以，当你去任何一个罗马城镇，最显眼的基础设施之一，是不是就是他们在城市中心附近迅速建起的公共厕所？

So is it very much a case that wherever you visited a Roman town, one of the key bits of infrastructure you'd see is they leave their kind of Roman mark on the new settlement would be quickly to create a communal latrine near the heart of the city?

他们是不是把建厕所当成头等大事，这点恐怕还不好说。

Whether that would be one of the first things they would do, I guess, is open to question.

不过，从很多定居点的情况来看，公共厕所确实普遍存在——我想这么说比较稳妥。

But it when we look at a number of settlements, communal public facilities of toilets are certainly generally present, I think is probably the way I'd want to say this.

我不会说每个地方都一定有，但它们在这么多地方都能见到。

I wouldn't want to say they're in absolutely every single settlement ever, but we do see them dotted around in so many places.

就像我说的，从奥地利到庞贝，从叙利亚到英国，你就能明白，这类厕所到处都是，分布得很广。

As I say, from Austria, Pompeii, across to Syria, up to Britain, you get the picture, there are plenty of them in plenty of different places.

不过话说回来，这并不意味着整个帝国的人都对使用厕所充满热情。

That having been said, it doesn't mean that they are actually uniformly taken up with such enthusiasm all across the empire.

帝国各地确实都有这类设施，但不同地区对建造厕所的热衷程度差别很大。

We see examples all across the empire, but different parts of the empire are much more keen to develop toilets or demonstrate far more examples.

我们在帝国的某些地区发现了远多于其他地区的厕所遗迹。

We have found far more examples of toilets in certain parts of the empire than in other parts of the empire.

这或许说明了，我之前也提到过，厕所使用背后存在文化习惯和风俗的差异。

Suggesting perhaps, and I think this was something I touched on earlier about the idea of cultural norms, customs behind toilet habits.

在意大利和北非，厕所的数量确实非常多；随着帝国的发展，一直到公元二世纪及以后，这类设施都广受欢迎，被广泛兴建。

So Italy, North Africa, we really do see a high number of toilets, Onwards and onwards through the development of the empire up to second century AD and on, we see that these facilities were popular in terms of being set up.

这说明，厕所在这些地方已经成了日常生活中很自然的一部分。

So that sort of suggests that they were pretty much a well accepted element of daily life.

但在近东地区，甚至在英国，情况却不一样。

That's not the same as in the Near East or indeed in Britain, actually.

近东和英国的厕所遗迹证据相对要少得多。

The evidence for toilets in the Near East and in Britain is somewhat less.

在英国，我们确实发现了厕所，但通常只出现在帝国北部的边境地带、军事营地，比如哈德良长城，我们之前提过，或者像罗库塔这类军事驻扎地，那里有很强的军事背景。

So in Britain, yes, we have found toilets, and where we generally find them are at the north of the empire, on the frontiers, at military sites, so Hadrian's Wall, we've talked about, or other sites where you've got really strong military connections, Rocsuta, for example, that sort of thing, where the military might be located.

除此之外，其他地方的厕所遗迹就零星多了。同样，在近东地区，厕所的普及也来得更晚、更少。

Other than that, they're far more disparate in terms Likewise, of evidence in if we take the example of the Near East, again, the uptake of toilets here was much, much later and less.

实际上，我们在近东地区看到的大多数厕所，都是大约公元四世纪才开始兴建的，比意大利和北非晚了很多。

I mean, we really start to see the majority of toilets in the Near East being built sort of around about the fourth century AD, so quite considerably later than in Italy and North Africa.

在城市遗址中，发现的厕所数量要少得多。

And there are, in urban sites, there are far fewer being found.

比如，如果你看犹地亚地区，厕所的遗迹就少得多。

So, for example, if you look at Judea, far fewer examples.

这里有几个可能的解释，其中一个可能是宗教禁忌——比如对裸露和污秽的顾虑，这些可能让某些宗教群体使用厕所变得困难，尤其是犹太教徒，可能特别难以接受。

The suggestion here, there are a few suggestions behind this, but one possible suggestion is the idea of religious taboos, that actually there may have been concerns about questions of nudity, questions of impurity, perhaps, that actually might make using toilets difficult for some religious communities, particularly, for example, religious Jews may have found it particularly difficult.

这不仅仅是关于裸露的问题，还可能涉及如厕时与他人身体过于接近的不适感，这种近距离接触本身也可能让人感到不安。

There is also the point it's not necessarily just about concerns about nudity, but actually there might also be concerns about the proximity, the closeness of being sitting pretty much in physical close contact with other people as you go to the loo, that actually that might also be a particular concern as well.

我们知道，犹太教对排泄物处理有明确的宗教规定。

And we know that there were clear Jewish religious strictures about depositing excrement in water.

犹太律法要求人类排泄物必须埋在田野里，所以如果厕所把排泄物冲进下水道，再流入城市排水系统，这就成了问题。

Jewish law dictated that human excrement needed to be buried in a field, So that's where toilets then caused a problem if they were going to be flushing excrement into the sewers and then therefore into water, into the urban drainage system.

所以，如果我们以铁器时代的不列颠人为另一个例子，当然，他们的原因不可能和你在犹地亚提到的完全一样。

And so naturally, let's say if we look at the Iron Age Britons, for instance, as another example, of course, it can't be exactly the same reason as you've just highlighted in Judea.

但也许他们不愿意采用这种做法，背后还有别的原因。

But perhaps we can presume that maybe there was another reason why they were uncomfortable of adopting this particular practice.

尽管在罗马时期的不列颠，很多聚居地仍有大量铁器时代的原住民，但这种做法并没有流行起来。

And though and so, you know, many of those settlements in Roman Britain, in which you would still have had a sizable number of Iron Age Britons, it doesn't pick up.

他们并没有像其他地方那样接受它。

It they don't take it on like other places.

是的。

Yeah.

你提到可能原因不一样，这其实很有意思。

And, actually, it's really interesting you say, oh, maybe we can't see the same reasoning.

但事实上，英国可能也有类似的情况，因为把排泄物排入水中，在当时也可能是个问题。

But, actually, there may be similar connections because, actually, the idea of disposal of excrement in water may have been problematic in Britain too.

哦，原来如此。

Oh, okay.

对。

Yes.

因为水和仪式之间有着非常悠久的联系。

Because there was a very long standing connection of water and ritual.

对。

Yes.

如果我们看看那些水体，比如泰晤士河，就经常被罗马时代之前的铁器时代社群用作祭祀物品的投放地点。

If we look at bodies of water, the River Thames, for example, was really so often used as a place of ritual deposition by pre Roman or late Iron Age, as we might call them, communities.

所以，粪便在水中可能在英国也同样令人反感，这个想法或许也与此有关。

So the idea that actually feces in water actually being problematic in Britain as well might also be similar here.

天啊，太有意思了。

God, so fascinating.

在一个刀剑锋利的世界里。

In a world where swords were sharp.

而当时的卫生状况，可能比你想象的要好得多。

And hygiene was actually probably better than you think it is.

两位无所畏惧的历史学家——我和马特·刘易斯，以及埃莉诺·简加博士——一头扎进中世纪的泥泞、鲜血和种种怪异习俗中。

Two fearless historians Me, Matt Lewis and me, doctor Eleanor Janaga, dive head first into the mud, blood, and very strange customs of the Middle Ages.

关于黑死病、十字军东征、维京袭击，还有其他一大堆不押韵的事儿，欢迎在你常用的播客平台订阅《Gone Medieval》，来自History Hit。

So for plagues, crusades, and Viking raids, and plenty of other things that don't rhyme, subscribe to Gone Medieval from History Hit wherever you get your podcasts.

那么，在罗马帝国那些确实普及了公共厕所的地方，汉娜，我们对这些厕所到底是什么样子了解多少呢？

Well, for the places in the Roman Empire where they did where communal toilets did catch on, Hannah, do we know much about what is it?

我是说，关于它们的运作方式，或者说是怎么建造的，我们了解多少？

I guess the logistics or do we know much about how they were set up?

谁负责管理这些厕所之类的？

Who was in charge of these toilets and so on?

这其实是个特别有意思的问题，因为说到公共厕所，谁来建造它们，这跟我们今天怎么筹措城市基础设施经费息息相关。

It's a really interesting question actually, because in terms of like the communal toilets, the question of who set them up is really interesting when we think about how we fund our cities today, how we fund our infrastructure today.

我们今天修路、搞基建，靠的是税收。

We use taxes for our roads and so on and so forth.

但在古罗马，情况完全不一样。

That wasn't the case in ancient Rome.

那时候并没有像今天这样的市政委员会。

There weren't the councils in the same way that we have them today.

实际上，虽然罗马人确实征税，但这些税款实在太少，根本不足以支撑大规模的基础设施建设。

And actually, although Romans did collect taxes, the taxes really were, to be honest, too small to be doing substantial infrastructure, to undertake substantial infrastructure projects.

所以他们主要依靠私人捐赠，也就是富人出资为公共空间做贡献。

So what they relied upon was benefaction, private benefaction in public areas.

也就是说，通常是罗马的精英阶层出钱并负责在城市里建造公共厕所。

So that means that it would be generally elite Romans who would typically be setting up and who would be funding the public toilets in cities.

他们这么做，当然不只是为了公共卫生——我说的卫生，不只是干净整洁，更重要的是把粪便清理掉，保持城市美观。

And actually, they they would do so, yes, for an idea of when I say public health, mean sort of a notion of clean cleanliness, but also actually just keeping waste off the streets and for urban aesthetics, I guess.

同样，建造这些公共厕所，也是展示自己财富的一种方式。

And similarly, by setting up these communal toilets, it was a way of showing their own wealth and so on.

这叫‘慈善捐赠’，就是通过给社区送礼，让大家看到你的财力，记住你是个有影响力的人。

It's what we call euergotism, that notion of gift giving to your community so that they see your wealth and they remember your wealth and realize that you are a someone.

你可以想象，走进这些公共厕所，墙上很可能挂着一块铭牌，写着‘此厕由科尼利厄斯·格拉古家族于某年捐建’之类的字样。

So you can imagine in some of these communal toilets, if you walked into it, there could well be a a plaque or an inscription above saying this was set up by Cornelius Gracchus or whoever from ex family in the year whatever.

这其实就是一种提醒：你上厕所的时候，别忘了感谢捐建的人；说不定下次选举快到了，你也会想起他曾经为你做过的事。

Basically, a reminder that whenever you went to the loo to remember who to thank almost and maybe with the next election or something like that coming up to, you know, just remember what I did for you in that time.

没错。

Absolutely.

这其实正是公益捐赠的核心理念。

And actually, that really is the idea of Uergotism.

关键是要让自己的名字被人知道，不管你是通过建厕所、剧院，还是其他方式捐赠。

That actually it's about getting your name out there, whatever way your gift giving, whether that's through building a toilet, a theater, it might be.

目的是让自己出名，这样在投票的时候大家才会记得你。

But it was about making a name for yourself so that people will remember you at the time of voting.

从而树立起你作为城里重要人物的身份象征，展示你的地位和财富。

And so that you would have a symbol of your status and wealth that you were someone in the city.

有意思。

Interesting.

一位参议员捐建剧院，另一位捐建厕所，然后看谁在下一次投票中胜出。

You have one one senator who dedicates a theater, the other dedicates a toilet, and then you see who wins at the next vote.

如果建厕所的那个人赢了，那就说明他完全摸准了民众的需求。

So if the person who makes the toilet gets a vote, they just knew exactly what the people wanted.

所以你看，就是这样。

So there you go.

说得太对了。

Exactly right.

给我讲讲去这种公共厕所是什么体验吧。

So talk me through a visit to one of these communal toilets.

我们都知道些什么呢？

What do we know?

你之前已经提过一点了，但我认为我们还是应该再明确强调一下。

This is something that you've already hinted at, but I think we should mention and highlight again.

这些可不是独立的隔间，对吧？

These aren't private cubicles, are they?

你一进去，根本谈不上什么隐私可言。

You walk in, and it it's certainly not a private experience.

没错。

Right.

这真是个很有意思的问题。

So this is a really interesting question.

我对古代社会中公共与私人体验的界限特别感兴趣。

I am really interested in the question of public and private experience in the ancient world.

其实仔细想想，上厕所这件事跟我们的身体、感官和情绪都紧密相关，就是那种上厕所的体验。

And the concept of going to the toilet is actually mean, if you think about it, it's innately tied to our bodies, our senses, our emotions, you know, that sort of notion of going to the loo.

那么在古代城市的公共厕所里，情况会是什么样的呢？

Well, what's it gonna be like in a communal toilet in an ancient city?

你提出的隐私问题确实很重要，我们不仅要思考，还要意识到，我们今天的隐私观念未必和古代人一样。

So the question that you bring out here about privacy is really important for us to think about, but also for us to be aware that our concept of privacy is not necessarily the same as ancient concepts of privacy.

就视觉隐私而言，在古罗马的公共厕所里，至少从外面是看不到里面的，可能有门、帘子、隔板之类的遮挡，我们在好几个公共厕所遗址都发现了这类结构。

So in terms of visual privacy, going to the toilet in a communal Roman loo, well, there probably was some element of privacy from at least the outside world, so that people who were outside the toilet would not necessarily be able to view into the toilet because there would be doors or some sort of screen, a curtain or a partition or something like that, and we have evidence of that at a number of communal toilets.

这说明当时确实有意识地把厕所和外部世界隔离开来。

So it suggests that there was some element of blockading that entrance from the main world outside.

但到了里面，情况就完全不同了。

Inside, however, the situation is very, very different.

公共罗马厕所一个很重要的特点是，正如我所说，它们是共用的，很多人一起用，但根本没有隔板或隔间来隔开使用者。

So a really important feature of the public Roman toilet is that, as I say, they are communal, many they are communal, but there aren't screens, there aren't cubicles that would give any sort of block between users.

所以，没有隔板、没有独立隔间，使用者之间肯定能互相看到。

So, actually, that lack of screens, that lack of cubicles would surely allow views between users.

而你在厕所里能看见什么、不能看见什么，还跟室内的光线强弱有很大关系。

And now one thing that will have impacted what you can and can't see in the toilet as you're in that room is, of course, the the amount of lighting that there is.

对。

Yeah.

如果光线很足，你就能看得更清楚。

If there's obviously a lot of light, you'll see a lot more.

如果光线暗，自然就看不太清楚。

Obviously, light, you'll see less light.

所以这种情况变化挺大的。

So that could be quite variable.

另一个影响你能否看清别人的情况的因素，是他们穿的衣服。

The other thing that would impact what you could and couldn't see while people were on the loo would be in terms of the clothing that they were wearing.

使用者都是坐着的。

Users would be seated.

所以你穿着衣服坐下时，衣服会遮住一部分场景。

So the clothing you would be wearing as you were seating would indeed cover elements of what was going on.

不过，这当然取决于你穿的是什么衣服。

Although, of course, that depends on the clothing you're wearing.

如果你穿的是托加长袍，遮得可能比穿突尼卡长袍多，后者相对更宽松，看得更多。

If you're wearing toga, potentially more than if you're wearing a tunic, which may be rather more opening up, seeing a lot more.

另外，还有一个问题，就是人们会不会避开视线。

The other thing, of course, is the question of whether people would avert their eyes.

人们上厕所时，真的会避开不看旁边的人吗？

Did people go to the toilet and actually avert their eyes from other people surrounding them?

这个我们很难确定，不好说。

Well, we can't really answer that, but it's difficult to say.

这就是视觉方面的情况。

So that's the visual side of it.

但上厕所时的感官体验可不止这一种。

But that's not the only sensory experience to be had whilst on the toilet.

确实如此。

That's very true.

是的。

Yes.

没错。

Indeed.

气味显然是这里非常关键的一种体验。

Smell would obviously be a fundamental experience here.

很难想象这些厕所的通风情况到底怎么样，但估计差别很大。

And, you know, it's very difficult to think about just how ventilated these toilets might've been, but it probably varied considerably.

有些厕所可能根本没有屋顶。

There may have been some toilets that didn't have roofs.

有些则可能装了窗户。

There may have been some that had windows.

当然，这些设计有助于通风，但也很可能有不少厕所是有顶无窗的，那样通风效果就差得多得多。

And of course those elements would have helped with ventilation, But then it's possible that a number of toilets really did have roofs or didn't have windows, and then the ventilation there would be much, much less.

实际上，一个问题可能是，在帝国的不同地区，有些厕所是露天的，有些却是有顶的？

And actually, one of the questions there might be in different parts of the empire, would some toilets be unroofed and some toilets be roofed?

因为在英国，蹲在露天的公共厕所里，可比在温暖的叙利亚难受多了。

Because it would be far worse in Britain to be going to the toilet in an unroofed communal latrine than say in Syria, which is rather warmer.

所以，这可能是帝国各地厕所设计受气候影响的一个关键差异。

So that may be one climactic difference as to how toilets were built across the empire.

那么，现在我们说到通风，问题就是——肯定很臭。

So then you've got the notion of ventilation and it's gonna smell.

厕所本身肯定有异味，比如，我们至今没发现任何关于防臭装置的考古证据。

The toilets themselves would have smelled because one thing, for example, we have no archeological evidence of stench traps.

所谓防臭装置，其实就是用水封来阻止臭气往上冒的设计。

So actually that doesn't, the whole idea of the stench trap is to, it's a water seal to protect or to prevent the upward passage of the smelly gases.

如果没有这种装置，臭气自然就往上散了。

With no sedge trap, they're not being kept down.

就是啊，完全敞开的。

They're just, oh, free flowing.

罗马人有没有一种意识，知道这些气味没法彻底消除，但会不会像用除臭喷雾那样做点什么？

Is there any kind of Roman sense that, yes, okay, they can't get rid of those smells, but do they have almost a Febreze equivalent?

他们会不会用一些香草、香料之类的东西，来掩盖一下气味？虽然气味还在，但至少能减轻一点？

Did they try to get a sweet smelling aromatics or the like that they could also include to maybe, although it hasn't gone away, but at least try to conceal the smell to an extent?

是的。

Yeah.

实际上，我们确实发现了一些例子，尤其是在私人厕所里，有人把香草挂起来，或者附近有烧过的香草残留，很可能是为了掩盖异味。

And actually, we do have examples, particularly there have been examples actually found in private toilets where you would have herbs hanging up or herbs, remnants of burnt herbs nearby, which very possibly might have been about trying to disguise the smell.

这确实很有可能。

That certainly is a possibility.

在多个厕所遗址中，都发现了类似的证据。

And evidence has been found in a number of toilets, in a number of examples.

去公共厕所的另一个问题，不只是看得见、闻得臭，还会接触到别人。

The other element of going to the communal toilet, not only is it visible, not only is it smelly, but then you're touching people.

你坐在马桶上时，跟别人离得特别近。

You're in close proximity to other people as you are sitting going to the toilet.

所以，这很可能确实是当时人们在意的问题。

So actually, that could very possibly have been a concern for people.

而且，你坐在马桶座上，正对着一个又深又黑的洞，底下很可能有老鼠、苍蝇，还有各种不干净的东西。

And, of course, you are sitting on a toilet seat above a deep, dark hole where there could easily be the concern for rats and flies and all sorts of other unwanteds existing in the depths of the dark toilet system.

还有，别忘了那声音。

And then, of course, you've got the noise.

你知道的，如果很多人同时上厕所，那厕所里的各种声响可就热闹了。

You know, actually, if you've got a lot of people going to the toilet, you've got the sound of going to the loo.

对，没错，就是这样。

Yes, exactly, yes.

你还能听到面前排水沟里水流的声音。

You've got the sound of water running in the gutters in front of you.

还有周围人说话的嘈杂声。

You've got the chatter of people.

其实，这确实是一个问题。

You know, actually, that is one thing.

所以我之前问，人们会不会避开目光，就是这个原因。

And that was why I said, when I said, did people avert their eyes?

但我觉得根本没什么证据表明他们会这样，相反，我们有大量证据显示人们在厕所里聊天。

Well, I don't think we've got much evidence of that at all because what we do have is evidence of people talking to each other on the loo.

挺有意思的。

Interesting.

看来那时候，厕所反而是人们坐下来闲聊的地方。

It does seem to be that it was a place where people would sit and have a good old natter.

大概就像古罗马人用报纸或者厕所读物打发时间一样。

The equivalent of a newspaper, I guess, or a toilet book in Yeah, Roman

说得对。

exactly right.

完全正确。

Exactly right.

打听最新的八卦

Catching up on the gossip.

对啊

Yeah.

了解最近发生了什么

Finding out what's going on.

那里有很多很多感官上的体验

It's a place where there were many, many experiences, sensory experiences to be had.

所以一个关键问题可能是关于气味，但其实声音这些感官体验让罗马人多反感，这还不好说

I guess one of the questions then is particularly about smell, but actually the sound and so how much would those sensory experiences have displeased Romans is open to question.

我们现在生活的世界，气味已经被清理得差不多了

You know, we live in quite a deodorized world.

对我们来说，气味可能很难闻，但人其实会慢慢习惯

So for us, smell can be quite foul, but actually you do get habituated to smell.

那当时这些味道到底有多难闻呢

So how badly some of this smelt?

如果我们坐时光机回到过去，我觉得这些厕所的气味肯定难闻得要命，但那真的有那么糟吗？当时的人会不会觉得它其实没那么难接受？

To us, if we went back in a time machine, yeah, the smell I should imagine would be horrendous in these toilets, But actually, would it have been as bad or would it have been perceived as bad?

这个问题要回答起来就难多了。

That is a more difficult question to answer.

对。

Yeah.

因为我们没有留下任何哲学家或当时人的记录，说厕所的臭味有多可怕，或者这是多么堕落的场景之类的？

Because we don't have that information surviving from a a philosopher or someone writing down saying, like, the stench of the toilets was horrific, or this is the depths of depravity or anything like that?

其实我们是有不少关于厕所气味的记载，也确实有人写过对公共厕所的厌恶，但我只是在想，如果你走在街上，突然闻到一股臭味，它真有那么刺鼻、那么让人受不了吗？我想表达的是，我们得小心，别把现代人对感官体验的反应直接套用到古代人身上，这才是我想说的重点。

No, we do have comments about the smell of toilets, and we disgust do written about the disgust towards latrines, but I'm just thinking about if you're walking around the street and so on, actually, if you come across the smell of a toy, would it really impinge and be so I guess what I'm trying to say here is we need to be very careful about putting our modern concepts of our sensory experiences of our world and actually just transporting those onto understanding the sensory experiences of the ancient world is, I guess, the point I'm trying to make here.

没错。

No.

完全正确。

Completely.

不过这又引出了另一个重要问题。

That does raise another important question, though.