#244：阿里巴巴国际站如何构建Agent-to-Agent商务的未来

而且会有分析师之间的来回对话，涉及不同的时区、不同的文化和语言。

And there are going to be analyst back and forth conversations, different time zones, different cultures and languages.

在这种情况下，AI能帮上很大的忙。

In there, that AI can help a lot.

所以我们相信B2B会走向A2A，也就是智能体对智能体。

So we believe that the B2B will go to A2A, so agent to agent.

那将是未来的趋势。

That will be the future.

欢迎收听《AI转型》，这是《人工智能秀》的一个特别系列。

Welcome to AI Transformations, a special series from the Artificial Intelligence Show.

我是Mike Kaput，SmarterX和营销AI研究所的首席内容官，也是你们的主持人。

I'm Mike Kaput, chief content officer at SmarterX and Marketing AI Institute, and I'll be your host.

每家企业的AI转型之路都不一样。

Every business's AI journey looks different.

在每一集中，我都会与那些经历过真实AI转型的领导者对话，包括真实的故事、促使他们行动的那些痛点、事情开始有起色的那一刻，以及他们今天能展示的成果。

In each of these episodes, I sit down with leaders who have lived through real AI transformation, including the actual stories, the pain points that push them to act, the moment things started to click, and the results they can point to today.

所以，加入我们，一起在AI转型系列中加速普及AI知识。

So join us as we accelerate AI literacy for all as part of our AI transformations series.

欢迎大家收听《人工智能秀》第244期。

Welcome everyone to episode 244 of the Artificial Intelligence Show.

我是Mike Kaput，人工智能秀的联合主持人，也是SmarterX的首席内容官。

I am Mike Kaput, cohost of the Artificial Intelligence Show and chief content officer here at SmarterX.

今天，我们继续之前一直在做的特别系列，叫做“AI转型”。

Now today, we are continuing a special series that we've been running called AI Transformations.

这个系列聚焦于真实公司如何利用AI推动真正的变革。

This is where we spotlight how real companies are driving real change using AI.

我们最初推出AI转型系列时，计划了六集，挑选了一些我们特别想讲的故事。

Now, we actually launched AI Transformations with this initial six episode run where we had some select stories we knew we wanted to tell.

但值得讲述的转型故事远不止六个，所以我们会继续这个系列，在《人工智能秀》中带来更多这样的对话。

But there are far more than six transformation stories worth telling, so we are continuing the series and bringing you more of these conversations directly as part of the artificial intelligence show.

这个系列的核心主题保持不变。

Now the premise here remains the same.

AI转型听起来可能很抽象。

AI transformation can feel abstract.

很多公司都在谈论它。

Plenty of companies talk about it.

但真正展示出它在真实组织、真实团队、真实限制和真实业务成果中是什么样子的公司，却少得多。

Far fewer show what it actually looks like inside real organizations with real teams, real constraints, and real business outcomes.

所以在这一系列节目中，我们直接与正在做这些工作的领导者对话。

So in these episodes, we are talking directly to the leaders doing the work.

我们将探讨他们各自的AI转型，公司内部的AI工作是什么样的，在AI采用和创新过程中遇到了哪些困难，以及AI开始带来什么样的成果。

We're going to explore their particular AI transformations, what AI work looks like inside the company, what got difficult along the way when it comes to AI adoption and innovation, and what kind of results AI is starting to unlock.

今天，我们要对话的领导者是张阔，他是阿里巴巴国际站的总裁。

So today, the leader we are talking to is Kuo Zhang, who is president of alibaba.com.

张阔将在这里谈论阿里巴巴国际站如何利用AI和智能体，重新思考企业家和小企业如何参与全球贸易。

Kuo is here to talk about how alibaba.com is using AI and agents to rethink how entrepreneurs and small businesses participate in global commerce.

在我们开始今天与张阔的对话之前，先……

So before we get into today's conversation with Kuo, the...

本期节目由MAICON赞助，这是我们的营销AI大会，面向营销和商业领袖，将于10月13日至15日在我们的大本营俄亥俄州克利夫兰举行。

This episode is brought to you by MAICON, our Marketing AI Conference for marketing and business leaders happening October thirteenth to the fifteenth right here in our home base of Cleveland, Ohio.

我们预计会有数千名具有前瞻性思维的AI领袖来到这里。

We are expecting thousands of AI forward leaders here.

如果你在节目发布时收听，距离MAICON开幕还有不到两周的时间。

We are less than two weeks away from MAICON if you are listening to this when it drops.

所以，如果你一直在考虑加入我们，现在是时候行动了。

So if you've been thinking about joining us, this is the time to make it happen.

我们将汇聚众多人士，进行为期三天的主题演讲、分论坛、工作坊和对话，探讨组织如何采用、运营和扩展AI。

We are gonna bring together so many people for three days of keynotes, sessions, workshops, and conversations about how organizations are adopting, operationalizing, and scaling AI.

你将听到真实世界的案例研究、实用框架，以及来自当今公司内部一线从业者的直接经验。

So you'll hear real world case studies, practical frameworks, and direct lessons from the people doing the work inside companies today.

如果你是播客听众，请在结账时使用代码pod 100购买MAICON门票，可节省100美元。

If you are a podcast listener, use the code pod 100 at checkout for your MAICON ticket to save a $100 on your pass.

更酷的是，使用这个代码还能为你预留我们在播客听众私人午餐会上的席位，届时我的另一位联合主持人、我们的CEO兼创始人Paul Rateser和我将花一个小时回答你关于AI、你的公司、你的职业，以及你在广阔而精彩的AI世界中想探索的任何问题。

Now, what's really cool is that using this code will also reserve your place at our private lunch for podcast listeners where Paul Rateser, my other co host, our CEO and founder, and I will spend an hour answering your questions about AI, your company, your career, whatever you're trying to navigate in the wide, wonderful world of AI.

所以名额有限。

So seats are limited.

房间满了，这个优惠就结束了。

The offer closes when the room is full.

所以尽快使用那个代码吧。

So use that code as soon as possible.

去 maicon.ai 注册，我们期待十月十三号到十五号在克利夫兰见到你。

Go to maicon.aai,maicon.ai, to register, and we hope to see you October thirteenth to the fifteenth here in Cleveland.

今天，我请到了阿里巴巴国际站的总裁张阔。

So today, I am joined by Kuo Zhang, president of alibaba.com.

大多数人听到阿里巴巴这个名字，可能想到的是更大的阿里巴巴集团。

Now when most people hear the name Alibaba, they probably think about the much larger Alibaba Group.

阿里巴巴国际站是那个组织的一部分，也是整个公司的起点。

Alibaba.com is a specific part of that organization, and it is where the entire company began.

阿里巴巴国际站于1999年上线，是阿里巴巴集团的第一项业务。

Alibaba.com launched in 1999 as Alibaba Group's first business.

如今，它是一个全球性的企业对企业电商平台，帮助创业者以及中小型企业寻找供应商、采购产品、进行交易，并管理国际贸易的各个环节。

Today, it is a global business to business commerce platform that helps entrepreneurs and small and mid sized businesses find suppliers, source products, conduct transactions, and manage different parts of international trade.

在2026财年，alibaba.com报告称，来自超过190个国家的4700多万买家使用该平台寻找商机或完成交易。

For the fiscal year 2026, alibaba.com reported that more than 47,000,000 buyers from over a 190 countries had used the platform to source business opportunities or complete transactions.

此外，它还有超过24万名付费会员。

It also had more than 240,000 paying members.

郭坤自2017年起担任alibaba.com的总裁。

Kuo has served as president of alibaba.com since 2017.

他的职业生涯始于IBM和微软，担任计算机科学家，之后于2011年加入阿里巴巴，负责淘宝的商家平台和工具。

He began his career as a computer scientist at IBM and Microsoft before joining Alibaba in 2011 where he worked on merchant platforms and tools for Taobao.

自从接管alibaba.com以来，他帮助推动了平台从最初主要是企业名录向支持交易、支付、物流、营销以及其他全球贸易环节的转型。

Now since taking over alibaba.com, he has helped lead its evolution from what was primarily a directory of business listings into a platform that supports transactions, payments, logistics, marketing, and other parts of global commerce.

现在，他正领导alibaba.com认为的下一项重大变革，即向人工智能驱动的代理对代理商务迈进。

Now he is leading what alibaba.com sees as its next major transformation, the move towards AI powered agent to agent commerce.

这一旅程，也就是我们今天要讨论的，始于2024年11月，当时推出了Accio，一个专为商业买家打造的人工智能搜索和采购引擎。

That journey, which we'll talk about today, began in November 2024 with Accio, an AI powered search and sourcing engine built for business buyers.

从那以后，它已经发展成了一个你可以想象成由多个专门AI代理组成的团队，服务于创业者和小型企业。

It has since evolved into what you can think of as a team of specialized AI agents for entrepreneurs and small businesses.

所以，这些代理不仅仅是回答简单问题或推荐下一步行动，而是能够将商业目标分解成具体任务，并帮助执行这些任务。

So rather than answering simply questions or recommending next steps, these agents can break a business goal into specific tasks and help execute them.

比如市场调研、产品采购、供应商谈判、店铺运营、营销、物流和合规等。

Things like market research and product sourcing to supplier negotiations, store operations, marketing, logistics, and compliance.

现在，超过一千万的小型企业使用Accio Work来运营他们的业务，在最近三个月内，他们总共消耗了一万亿个AI代币。

Now more than 10,000,000 small businesses now use Accio Work to run their operations, collectively consuming 1,000,000,000,000 AI tokens over a recent three month period.

这些数字确实很可观，但更重要的故事在于它们可能代表的意义。

Now those are significant numbers, but the bigger story here is what they could represent.

阿里巴巴国际站正在探索，是否可以从一个人们浏览的市场转变为一个运营平台，在这个平台上，代理越来越多地代表用户进行商业活动，并最终与其他代表买家、卖家和服务的代理互动。

Alibaba.com is exploring now whether it can evolve from a marketplace that people navigate into an operating platform where agents increasingly help conduct commerce on their behalf and eventually interact with other agents representing buyers, sellers, and service providers.

所以，我们今天要探讨的是，这个转变是如何开始的，Accio Work具体做什么，客户如何使用它，以及阿里巴巴国际站内部需要做出哪些改变。

So we're going to explore today how this transformation began, what Accio Work actually does, how customers are using it, and what had to change inside Alibaba dot com.

此外，我们还会聊聊在这个过程中遇到的困难，以及代理对代理的商业对全球商业的未来可能意味着什么。

Not to mention, we'll chat about what has been difficult along the way and what agent to agent commerce could mean for the future of global business.

郭，欢迎来到节目。

Kuo, welcome to the show.

非常感谢你能来和我们一起。

Thank you so much for being here with us.

谢谢你帮我。

Thank you for helping me.

你做了很多研究。

You did a lot of research.

我们尽力了。

We tried.

我们尽力了。

We tried.

你知道，现在有智能助手帮忙做研究，事情容易多了，我觉得。

You know, it gets a lot easier these days when agents can help you with the research, I think.

我们肯定会聊到这个的。

We'll talk about that, I'm sure.

确实是这样。

So That's true.

在我们深入探讨这个更大的故事和转型之前，我得问问这个产品的名字。

Before we get into this broader story, this broader transformation, I have to ask about the name, of the product.

Accio，拼写是A-C-C-I-O，在拉丁语里是‘召唤’的意思。

So Accio, a c c I o, is Latin for iSummon.

而且阿里巴巴在采访中也直接说过，这个名字是参考了《哈利·波特》里的召唤咒。

And Alibaba has actually said in interviews outright, the name is a reference to the summoning charm in Harry Potter.

我很好奇，为什么这个名字适合你们正在打造的东西？

I'm just curious why was this the right name for what you're building here?

Accio，正如他所说，在拉丁语里确实是‘召唤’的意思。

So Accio, what he says is right, is Latin for I summon.

同时也是《哈利·波特》里的召唤咒。

And also is the kind of the summon charm in Harry Potter.

就是你说出名字，就能把它召唤到你面前。

It's just you kind of say name, and you can bring to you.

所以我们用这个名字，是因为在设计Accio之初，就像你有一个词，或者有一些想法，我们可以借助AI和全球供应链帮你实现梦想。

So we use this name because in the beginning, when we design Accio, it's like you have a word, or you have some thoughts, and we can use AI and global supply chain help you to make your dream come true.

所以这有点像Accio。

So it's some kind of Accio.

而且，在Accio这个词里，也包含了AI。

And also, in Accio, there's AI inside this term.

在alibaba.com，我们让所有年轻员工投票，他们都喜欢这个名字。

And all the young guys in alibaba.com that kind of we get a vote, and all the young guys love this name.

所以我们就选了这个作为新产品名。

So we just choose this as the new product name.

我喜欢这个。

I love that.

太酷了。

That's so cool.

那我们就从宏观层面开始吧。

So let's start off at a high level.

能不能给我讲讲阿里巴巴国际站通过Accio Work推进的AI转型，以及这如何改变创业者和中小企业参与全球贸易的方式？

Maybe walk me through the AI transformation that alibaba.com is pursuing through Accio Work, and maybe talk to me a bit about how this is changing the way entrepreneurs and small businesses participate in global commerce.

当然可以。

Sure.

我们一步一步来。

So we take step by steps.

Accio最初推出，我记得是两三年前。

So Accio first launched, I think, two or three years ago.

那时候的AI和现在不一样。

And at that time, AI is not as today.

我们是从AI搜索开始的。

And we're starting from the AI search.

你可以把它想象成谷歌的AI模式或AI概览。

You can think about this like a Google AI mode or AI overview.

我们发现，人们在使用阿里巴巴国际站时，搜索方式跟以前不一样了。

So when we feel that when the people using alibaba.com, they are using it, use the search a kind of different way than before.

他们越来越倾向于使用多模态材料，比如图片、文档，而且他们用句子来描述需求，而不只是几个关键词或查询。

They tend to use more and more multimodal materials, like images, like documentations, and they describe their needs in a kind of sentence, not only a few keywords or queries.

借助AI，我们其实更有能力去理解阿里巴巴网站上买家背后的意图。

And leveraging AI, actually, we have more power to understand the intention behind the scene of the users, the buyers on alibaba.com.

我觉得这是第一步。

I think that's the first step.

当我们推出这个产品后，我们看到人们实际上在使用这个在线代理，也就是在线采购代理，去做很多搜索之外的事情。

And when we kind of launch the product, we are seeing people actually using this online agent, the online sourcing agent to do many other things other than search.

比如，他们用这个代理来发展他们的想法。

For example, they are using this agent to develop their ideas.

他们有一些想法，想做市场调研，想看看这个产品是否存在。

They have some ideas, they want to do a market research, they want to see if this product exists.

现有产品有哪些不足，机会在哪里？

Are there kind of shortcomings of the existing product, and what are the opportunities?

然后他们会把这个想法转化为一个设计包。

And then they will transform this idea into a design pack.

以前，买家跟供应商来回沟通的时候，很多时候他们都没法说清楚自己到底想做什么。

So previously, when the buyers talk with suppliers back and forth, many of the times that they cannot describe what they are trying to build.

而借助AI，他们其实可以生成一份非常详尽、专业的方案包给供应商。

And the leveraging AI, actually they can generate a very sufficient and professional design pack for the suppliers.

当供应商收到Accio生成的方案包时，他们说从来没见过这么专业的买家。

When the supplier receive the design pack generated by Accio, they said they never see a buyer actually is so professional.

这样一来，也减少了很多来回的讨论和纠纷。

And then it reduce a lot of back and forth discussion and dispute as well.

这就是Accio的起点。

So that is the beginning of the Accio.

所以我们从AI搜索开始，慢慢发展成一个采购代理。

So we start from the AI search to kind of a sourcing agent.

他们不仅用它来询价，还用来做市场调研，或者等供应商出产品设计。

And they're using that not only for inquiries, but also for market research, for customer or suppliers waiting for the product design.

随着AI技术不断进步，我们现在也用AI来处理谈判环节。

And when the AI technology or power kind of moving on, we are using AI to do the negotiations part as well.

所以AI变成了一个真正的代理，代表买家的利益。

So the AI become a real agent, represent the benefit or the interest of the buyers.

你可以想象，卖家那边也有自己的代理，帮他们做类似的事情。

And you can imagine the seller side has its own agent as well, helping them to do the similar stuff.

这个季度，我们进一步扩展了这个代理的应用范围。

And for this quarter, we kind of expand the scope of this agent further.

我们发现它不仅仅用于采购，还可以作为一个电商工作空间。

We found that is not only used for sourcing, it can be used as a e commerce workspace.

记得吗，我的第一份工作是在淘宝和天猫，为卖家提供各种工具。

So remember, I actually, the first job of mine is in Taobao and Timor, providing all kind of tools for sellers.

我们看到，AI在电商领域的应用和采购有很多相似之处。

And we see that the AI for e commerce actually has a lot of similarity of the sourcing.

所以你需要管理很多店铺。

So you need to manage many stores.

比如你有Shopify、Amazon、eBay、Etsy这些平台。

Like you have Shopify, you have Amazon, you have eBay, Etsy.

我们遇到的很多卖家，其实都在不同平台上管理店铺。

And many of the sellers that we met, actually they manage stores across different platforms.

但他们希望把业务当成一个整体来管理，而不是用不同的表格去算盈亏。

But they want to manage the business as one, not in different spreadsheet to understand the P and Ls.

而且当他们在Shopify、Amazon、TikTok Shop或者社交媒体上发布商品时，

And also when they upload a listing on Shopify, on Amazon, on TikTok shop, or on social medias.

他们希望一次搞定，而不是不停地用不同的图片、视频，按照不同的规则，把不同的产品更新到不同的平台。

They want to do it once for all, not kind of keep updating different product to different platforms using different images, videos, applying different rules.

这些其实都可以由智能代理来处理。

And this can be taken care of by the agent as well.

最后但同样重要的是，Accio实际上是把所有不同的智能代理整合在一起。

And the last but not least is that Accio actually is aggregate all different agents.

你可以把它们放在一个组里，帮你做深度研究，从了解趋势，到了解竞争对手的机会，还能帮你挖掘谁可以生产，以及盈亏情况是什么样的。

And you can put them in a group helping you to do some kind of deep research, from understanding the trend, to understanding your competitors' opportunities, and also helping you to dig actually who can make this, and what's a P and L look like?

利润率是什么样的？

What's the margin look like?

所以，对于像洛杉矶这样的小企业主来说，你有一些想法。

And this together for SMBs like in Los Angeles, you have some ideas.

你想采购，想把产品上架到所有不同的平台，还想管理你的日常业务。

You want to source, and you want to list your product in all different platforms, and you want to manage your daily business.

所以，Accio Work 实际上可以帮助你管理端到端的工作，不仅限于阿里巴巴网站，还包括你所有的店铺前台。

So this Accio Work actually can help you to manage your end to end work, not only on alibaba.com, but also on all your kind of storefronts as well.

这就是这个智能体的演变过程。

So this is how this agent evolves.

哇。

Wow.

所以，听起来 Accio 最初是作为产品搜索工具，利用 AI 在阿里巴巴网站上提供更好的搜索，但因为你看到客户和用户实际上用 AI 做的事情不仅仅是搜索，还有创意、建议，所以它扩展成了能够帮助采购和电商流程中许多不同环节的智能体，用于建立业务。

So it sounds like Accio started out as essentially product search using AI for better search on alibaba.com, but because of what you were seeing customers, users actually using the AI for, which wasn't just search, it was ideas, it was advice that it expanded from there to actually become agents that could help with many different parts of the sourcing and ecommerce process when building a business.

而且听起来，这后来演变成了 Accio Work，作为一个平台，基本上帮助你端到端地运营和建立电商业务。

And it sounds like then that evolved into Accio Work being a platform to essentially help you end to end run and build an e commerce business.

我理解得大致对吗？

Do I have that roughly correct?

是的。

Yes.

而且自从我们今年四月推出Accio Work以来，过去四个月用户使用的令牌量增长了六倍。

And since we launched Accio Work this April, So the tokens that used by the users actually is six fold for the past four months.

这意味着他们使用这些工具的深度和复杂度比以前高多了。

So that means that they are using these tools much deeper and complex than before.

那令牌量真是惊人。

That's an insane amount of tokens.

所以在你们开发Accio和Accio Work之前，我很好奇，之前是什么……

So before you built Accio and Accio Work, I'm curious what was...

痛点在哪里？

Where was the pain point?

对创业者和中小企业来说，什么最难？

What was so difficult for entrepreneurs and small businesses?

你之前提到了一点，这些代理在帮助买卖双方沟通，对吧？

I mean, you kind of mentioned a little bit the agents are advocating or helping, you know, helping the buyers and the sellers that they're helping communicate between them.

我很好奇，你能不能更深入地讲讲，为什么AI代理是解决企业家、卖家和中小企业所面临问题的正确答案？

I'm curious if you could drill a little more into why were agents, AI agents, the right answer here for the problems that entrepreneurs and sellers and small businesses were experiencing.

当然可以。

Sure.

在我们讨论B2B之前，我们可以先拿B2C做个类比。

So before we talk about B2B, we can do a kind of cooperation with B2C.

这样听众更容易理解。

This is more easy for the audience to understand.

当你买东西的时候，其实B2C领域也有很多关于代理的实验和探索。

So when you buy something, so there are a lot of, I should say, the experiment or explorations for the B2C's agent as well.

但大多数还不太成功，因为场景或挑战不同。

But majority of them is not that successful yet because of the scenarios or the challenges.

作为消费者买东西时，首先，产品不贵，所以决策成本不高。

So when you are a consumer buy some stuff, the first, the product is not that expensive, so decision is not expensive.

其次，做决策需要考虑的维度也不复杂。

The second is the decision, how to say, the dimensions that you need to make that decision is not complicated.

一般来说，就是图片、标题、价格、送货时间，大概就这些。

It's in general including the image, title, price, delivery time, probably this is it.

而且很多时候，你买东西其实是在消磨时间。

And also, many of time when you buy something, you're killing time.

消费本身就是一种消磨时间的方式。

Consuming actually is a kill time.

没有人会为了消磨时间而用代理。

Nobody is using agent to kill time.

你不会让代理替你去电影院看电影吧。

You don't send agent to cinema to see a movie for you.

对吧？

Okay?

你想自己消磨时间。

You want to kill time yourself.

但在B2B领域，当我们完成交易时，情况就完全不同了。

But in the B2B part, when we do the completion, it's completely different.

所以首先，决策成本很高。

So the first, the decision is expensive.

在阿里巴巴上，每笔订单平均大概三千美元。

So on alibaba.com, every order kind of in general is about 3,000 US dollars.

所以决策成本很高。

So the decision is expensive.

而且需求、决策过程都很复杂。

And also the demand, the decision, the process of decision is complex.

所以你至少需要比较一下。

So you need to compare at least.

你可以想象一下，有一张表，至少有二十列，从产品名称、价格，到起订量，再到证书，然后是交货时间、付款条件、收入条款等等，比你自己买东西要考虑的事情多得多。

You can think about, there's a table with at least 20 columns, starting from the name of the product, price, and then go to the MOQ, then go to the certificate, and then go to the kind of delivery time, payment terms, income terms, and a lot of things is other than kind of you buy something for your own use.

你要么是为了转售，要么是因为它是你产品的一部分。

You want to buy on the resell, or you want to buy because it's part of your product.

所以这涉及很多要求，比消费者那边复杂得多。

So it's evolved a lot of requirements that is far more complicated than the consumer side.

而且这也是个工作。

And also it's a work.

B2B双方都处于工作环境中。

The B2B for both side, they are in a working kind of environment.

他们采购是因为要做生意，供应商也一样。

So they procurement because they need to kind of do a business, and suppliers the same.

所以双方都想用代理来节省时间。

So both part want to use agent to save time.

对人类来说，我们节省时间是为了能消磨时间。

For human beings, we save time so that we can kill time.

所以代理就是为了节省时间而设计的。

So agent is designed for save time part.

所以对于B2B，我们认为首先它能解决很多问题，帮你节省大量时间。

So for the B2B, we think is is first is solve a lot of problems, can help you to save a lot of time.

而且还有很多复杂的决策，需要反复沟通、重复劳动，这些都可以交给代理来处理。

And also there are a lot of complicated decisions, which requires back and forth, repetitive work that can be taken care of by the agent.

就拿一个很简单的采购或者C来举例吧，一般来说，从你有个想法到产品送到你手上，大概要经过60个步骤。

So taking a very simple procurement or C as example, in general, it takes around 60 steps from you have an idea until you get that product delivered to you.

而且中间会有分析师来回沟通，还要考虑时差、文化差异和语言问题。

And there are going to be analyst back and forth conversations, different time zones, different cultures and languages.

在这种情况下，AI对买卖双方都能帮上大忙。

In there, that AI can help a lot for both party, buyer and supplier.

所以我们相信，B2B会走向A2A，也就是代理对代理，这将是未来的趋势。

So we believe that the B2B will go to A2A, so agent to agent, that will be the future.

我很喜欢这个例子。

So I love that example.

那个过程里真的有60个完整的步骤。

There's 60 full steps in that process.

你能……

Can you...

我想再听你举一两个具体的例子，就是实际的应用场景。

I'd love to hear maybe another example or two from you, just concrete ways.

创业者和小企业现在是怎么用像 Accio Work 这样的工具的？我觉得这真的能让人们明白，这个过程中有多少麻烦事是智能体可以帮忙解决的。

How are entrepreneurs and small businesses using something like Accio Work today, I think that really hammers home for people just how much friction there is in this process that agents can help with.

好的。

Okay.

当然。

Sure.

其实我们为此拍了一个视频，如果你感兴趣的话。

So we actually shoot a video for that, if you have interest with us.

是的。

Yes.

那就描述一下，如果你是一个利用全球供应链的中小企业主。

So just describe a kind of, if you are a guy who's leveraging global supply chain, SSMB.

一般来说，你的日常工作是什么样的？

So in general, what's your daily life look like?

你有一些想法。

So you have some ideas.

比如说，你想采购一个登山包，然后在英国或者美国转卖。

For example, if you want to source a mountain bag and resell in UK or in US.

然后你需要描述你的需求，比如通过邮件或者询价单。

And then you need to describe what do you need, like in an email or in an RFQ.

然后你把这个需求复制粘贴给大概一百或二十个供应商，来回沟通，别把名字搞混了。

And then you copy paste this require to about 100 or 20 suppliers, with your requirement, back and forth, and don't mess up this name.

明白吗？

Okay?

然后你就等他们回复。

And then you just wait for their reply.

有的快，有的慢。

Some fast, some slow.

然后你开始用Excel管理，比较所有列，从起订量到价格，到证书，到质量，到重量，你可以自己命名。

And then you start managing Excel to compare all the columns from MOQ to price, to certificate, to quality, to weight, and you can name it.

这种来回沟通大概要持续一周，直到你收集到一个包含几十个供应商回复的表格。

And that kind of conversation back and forth probably for a week, until you gather a spreadsheet with dozens of replies of suppliers.

然后你会从中选两三个或者五个，开始进一步谈条件。

And then you select probably two or three or five of them, you start to further negotiate for further terms.

然后你需要和他们讨论怎么处理贸易条款、交货、付款方式，还要来回沟通样品的事。

And then you need to talk with them what how to kind of manage the incoterms, the deliveries, how to pay for them, and you gather product, you're back and forth on the samples.

这些就是中小企业在海外采购时的日常工作。

And these are the kind of daily work life of SMB, who is sourcing, let's say overseas.

一般来说，这个过程要花几周，有时候甚至几个月。

And in general, that takes for weeks, or sometimes for months.

你只是从一个想法开始，然后找到合适的人帮你做出来，最后拿到结果。

You just starting from an idea and then find a right guy who can make it for you and then get the results.

所以有了AI的帮助，你只需要告诉智能代理你的需求是什么，你在找什么，你的预算是多少。

So with the help of AI, actually what do you need to do is you tell the agent what your needs look like, and what you are kind of looking for, what's your budget look like.

然后智能代理会开始寻找符合你需求的供应商，并帮你和供应商来回沟通。

And then the agent start looking for the suppliers who specifically match your needs, and help you to communicate back and forth with the suppliers.

他们可以为你生成包含所有你需要的列的项目，可能只需要一天，运气好的话，几个小时就够了。

And they can generate the projects for you with all the columns that you need, probably just within a day, if you're lucky, in hours.

从那里开始，你就可以推进其他沟通，代理会一路帮你，最后完成合同。

And starting from there, that you can start to push forward other communications and agent can help you along the way to finish the kind of contract in the end.

所以，有了合适的最小起订量、合适的价格、合适的运输方式、贸易术语和付款条件。

So with the right MOQ, right price, and with the right shipment method, Incoterms, and payment terms.

然后我们可以利用贸易保障作为实际的B2B支付，帮你保护整个订单。

And then we can leverage trade assurance as actual B2B payment help you to protect the entire order.

这样就让B2B业务比以前顺畅多了。

So that kind of streamline the B2B business a lot of easier than before.

我刚刚只是拿采购举个例子。

So I just using sourcing as an example.

其实还有很多其他的例子。

There are many other examples as well.

所以你可以想象，对于一般的中小企业来说，他们没有全球采购的经验，时间和资源都很有限，也不懂这些条款。

So you can imagine that for SMB in general, who don't have the global sourcing experience, very limited time and resources, and don't understand about the terms.

而且很多时候，他们都不知道怎么写产品设计包。

And many of the cases, they don't know how to write a design pack for your product.

智能助手可以帮你处理所有这些部分，你只需要专注于最重要的问题，比如你要解决什么问题？

The agent can help you to handle all that parts, and you only focusing on the most important question, like what problem you are going to tackle?

你的客户是谁？

Who are your customers?

然后让智能助手帮你管理剩下的部分。

And let's agent to help you to manage the rest.

我很喜欢那个例子……

I love that exam...

那些例子。

Those examples.

这正好说明，这里有太多太多的机会，可以极大地简化和加速贸易流程，尤其是在B2B领域，面对所有这些任务，说实话，无论是企业、创业者，还是中小企业，甚至是那些非常擅长采购的人。

That just shows there are so much so much opportunity here to dramatically streamline and speed up the trade process, especially in B2B with all these tasks that frankly, like businesses, entrepreneurs, even SMBs, or people who are very expert at sourcing.

没有人愿意在这些任务上花费几个小时、几天、甚至几周的时间。

Nobody wants to be spending hours, days, weeks on these tasks.

他们想回到销售业务本身。

They wanna get back to the business of selling.

听起来智能体确实能大大简化这个过程。

So it sounds like agents can really streamline that process.

我很好奇，从宏观层面，你能分享多少就分享多少，阿里巴巴的AI转型，包括Accio，背后用的是什么样的技术？

I'm curious at a high level with whatever you can share, what kind of technology is powering alibaba.com's AI transformation, including Accio work?

我们之前大致聊过智能体。

We've talked about agents kind of broadly.

你能不能再稍微深入讲讲？

Can you maybe go into a little more detail there?

好的。

Okay.

其实我们有一个公式，用来概括智能体或者Accio是由什么组成的。

We have a formula, actually, in general to describe what's an agent or Accio is is composed of.

智能体等于模型乘以工具乘以上下文。

So agent equals to model times harness times context.

那为什么是相乘呢？

So why is it multiplied?

因为每个元素都是零，整个等式就是零。

Because each element is zero, the entire equation is zero.

所以模型实际上，怎么说呢，模型包含很多东西，是智能的核心。

So model actually is, how to say, the model includes a lot, is intelligence power.

我们正在使用，利用世界上所有前沿的模型，包括Queen。

And we're using, we're leveraging all the frontier models in the world, including the Queen.

而且我们还会对Queen的小尺寸模型进行后训练，确保它能拥有大尺寸前沿模型的同等能力，这得益于我们采用的后训练方法。

And also we do some post training on the queen, small size model to make sure that it can has the same power of the big size frontier model because of the post training that we use.

同时我们也做了很多服务方面的工作，确保我们有更好的缓存命中率，以及更好的模型性能。

And also we do a lot of serving stuff as well, to make sure that we have better cache rate, and we have a better performance of that model.

而harness其实也是关键。

And the harness actually is the key as well.

harness包含了所有逻辑、循环、护栏，以及你需要连接的工具。

So harness contain all this logic, the loops, the guardrails, the tools that you need to contact, connect.

比如我们帮助用户管理多个平台。

Like we manage to help the users to manage many platforms.

然后你需要让工具连接到所有这些平台，汇总数据，帮你上传商品列表，做市场调研，等等等等。

Then that you need to to how tools connect to all these platforms to aggregate data, help you to upload listings, do the marketing research, so on and so forth.

最后但同样重要的是上下文。

And the last but not least is the context.

上下文包括所有真实的业务数据、你进行的对话，还有来自平台的数据。

The context, including all the real business data, the conversations you have, and also the data from platforms.

数据越广泛，你对背景、趋势和品类的理解就越全面。

The broader the data is, the kind of more broader view of full understanding of the background and the trend and the category.

实际上，这样你就能做出更好的决策，得到更好的结果。

Actually, you can have the better decisions and the result out of that.

所以这就是我们构建的公式，我们也在不断改进，以得到更好的智能体。

So this is the kind of the formula that we composed and we kind of keep improving on to get a better agent.

为了确保我们持续改进这个系统，我们发明了一个基准，叫做Commerce Agent Bench。

And to make sure that we are continually improving this system, we invented a bench, we called Commerce Agent Bench.

你知道，现在有各种各样的基准，包括数学、编程等等。

So you know there are all kinds of bench, including mathematics, coding, so on and so forth.

但说到商业环境，就比之前那些基准测试要复杂得多。

But when we talk about the business environment, a little bit messier than all the bench before.

我们是从数百万次的对话中提炼出来的。

And we come, we are kind of distill from millions of conversations.

我是说，买家和卖家之间的真实对话，还有各种不同的执行流程。

I mean the real conversation between the buyer and the sellers and different execution workflows as well.

我们抽象出了107个不同的任务，确保覆盖了人们在平台上做生意的所有类别。

And we abstract 107 different tasks to make sure we cover all the categories where people are doing business on platform.

我们用这个基准来测试不同模型的结果，利用我们的工具，结合真实的商业背景，确保评估结果既可靠又可衡量，最重要的是，对中小企业来说也能负担得起。

And we're using this bench kind of to test all the result using different models and leveraging our harness and using the real context of the real business to make sure that we can evaluate the result actually is a merryable, is reliable, and most importantly, affordable to all the SMBs.

我很喜欢这个框架。

I really like that framing.

这个说法很优雅。

That's an elegant way to put it.

听起来，你们是在阿里巴巴的千问系列模型的基础上，进行了各种不同的后期训练，这些模型本身就已经非常强大了。

So it sounds like, you know, you have your model, which is, you know, doing various different types of post training on some version of Alibaba's Quinn family of models, which are extremely formidable.

这就像是你的原始智能乘以一个框架，这个框架就是那种专有的秘密配方，包括代码、逻辑、防护措施，基本上就是围绕模型的所有机制或架构，帮助它按照你想要的方式变得智能化，然后再乘以上下文，也就是所有的商业数据、阿里巴巴拥有的领域专业知识等等。

That's kind of your raw intelligence multiplied by a harness, which is kind of the, you know, proprietary secret sauce, bit of code, logic, guardrails, essentially, all the machinery or architecture around the model to help it be agentic in the way you want and then multiplied by the context, all the business data, the domain expertise Alibaba has, etcetera.

这是一个非常强大的组合，这也是为什么你不能仅仅在另一个业务或另一个环境中复制这样的东西。

That's a really powerful mix, and it is why you cannot just duplicate something like this in a different business or a different context.

听起来就是这三个要素共同作用，才让这一切成为可能。

There's these three elements, it sounds like, working together to make all of this possible.

没错。

Exactly.

我们刚才聊到的内容真的很棒。

So what we've talked about is amazing.

我的意思是，通过将智能体应用于电商流程，尤其是通过阿里巴巴国际站的B2B流程，确实产生了很棒的结果，对客户、买家和卖家都有好处。

I mean, there's really cool results by saying, okay, applying agents to the ecommerce process, especially a B2B process through alibaba.com is producing awesome results and things for customers, for buyers, for sellers.

但这也……

But this also also...

你之前提到过这一点，就是那种智能体对智能体的商务模式。

You kind of alluded to this when you said a to a, like agent to agent commerce.

稍微退一步看，你觉得AI代理到底会怎么改变整个商业格局？

Like, stepping back a bit here, how do you think AI agents are actually going to be transforming commerce at large?

看起来这里面的影响还挺大的。

It seems like there's some big implications here.

这对阿里巴巴自己的业务又带来了什么变化？

How is this changing alibaba.com's own business?

首先，我们在想未来会是什么样子。

So the first of all, we we think of in the future what is going to look like.

我们认为A到A是答案，因为双方，也就是供应商和买家，都希望尽可能节省时间，获得高效的结果。

So we think A to A is the answer Since the both party, I mean, the suppliers and the buyers both want to save their time and get efficient result as much as possible.

所以既有需求，也有网络效应。

So there are needs, and also there are network effect.

当你有了一个供应商网络，有了履约供应链网络，还有全球的需求，你知道，当你问全世界每一个中小企业，他们是否需要全球供应链？

So when you get a network of suppliers and you have a network of fulfillment supply chains, and you have all the demands in the world, you know that every small and medium business all over the world, when you ask them, do you need global supply chain?

他们是否需要代理团队来帮他们节省时间？

Do you need kind of agentic team to help you to save time?

我觉得对我们见过的所有公司来说，答案都是肯定的。

I think it's a yes for all the companies that we we meet.

他们之所以没有使用全球供应链或开展全球业务，是因为他们的规模、实力和资源有限。

And why they do not using the global supply chain or do global business is because of their size, power, limited of resources.

如果我们能赋予他们这种能力，让他们接触到全球资源，我相信每个中小企业都能充分发挥自己的潜力，因为他们了解本地市场，了解本地需求。

If we can kind of give them this power to access, I think every small SMBs can unleash their full power, since they understand the local business, they understand the local needs.

这意味着我们可以拥有更广泛的客户和用户群体。

And that means that we can have a more broader audience of our customers, the users.

所以，一切从需求端开始。

So always comes first from the demand side.

当需求端越来越大时，我们也能整合全球的供应端。

So when the demand side is getting larger and larger, we can kind of aggregate the supply side all over the world as well.

所有供应商都希望获得更多业务。

So all the suppliers, they want to get more business.

他们越是愿意分享真实业务数据，提供真实的生产能力，就越容易连接到这个网络中来。

And the more that they review, actually encrypt the buy agent, or provide their real business data, provide their real kind of manufacturer capabilities, that is more easier for them to connect to this network.

当代理之间协同工作时，效果更像是乘法。

And when the agent to agent kind of working together, it's more like a multiply.

这不像搜索引擎，我只是返回一些结果。

It's not like a search engine, I recall some of the results.

比如，我有几十万个供应商，只给你一千个，通过这种排名机制，你只能和其中几十个沟通，因为时间不够。

For example, I have hundreds of thousands of suppliers, I only give you 1,000, and using this kind of ranking mechanism, and you can only talk to dozens of them, since you don't have enough time.

但是当A2A网络协同工作时，它能轻松帮你映射这个庞大的网络。

But when the A2A network work together, it's easily help you to kind of map this much huge network.

而且更容易找到最符合你需求、预算和时间的匹配。

And it's much easier for you to kind of get the best match with your requirement, your budget, with your timing.

对我们来说，也更容易从全球的需求和供应中得出更好的结果。

And it's much easier for us to kind of get a better result out of the demand and supply requirements in the world.

所以我觉得如果这样想，这比我们现在做的搜索引擎式业务要大得多。

So I think if we think about that way, that is much bigger than what we are doing today using the search engine like business.

所以技术只是这种转型的一部分，无论是行业层面还是你为客户带来的价值。

So the technology is really one part of a transformation like this, both in the industry and with what you're enabling for customers.

我对阿里巴巴网站挺好奇的。

I'm curious about looking at alibaba.com.

比如，当你们从试验AI转向完全围绕智能体来构建和运营产品和流程时，公司内部需要做哪些改变？这可能对公司的运作方式、人才管理都有影响。

Like, what had to change inside the company as you move from experimenting with AI to building and operating products and workflows entirely around agents that probably has some implications for how your company operates, how talent works.

我想知道你能不能给我们详细讲讲。

I'm curious if you could unpack that for us.

当然可以。

Sure.

那我就尽量多讲一些。

So I just try to tell you as much as possible.

首先，Accio是作为阿里巴巴的一个独立团队或公司来运营的。

But the first thing is that Accio operates as a setup team or company Alibaba Okay.

你可以想象，阿里巴巴网站有自己的节奏和商业模式。

You can imagine that alibaba.com has its own pace, has its own business model.

而且，因为我们是上市公司，所以也有自己的规划。

And also, since we are a public company, that it has its own plans as well.

而Accio或Accio Work则完全是另一回事。比如，alibaba.com每两周或每两个月更新一次功能，因为那个系统已经运行了二十六年，就像你提到的。

Where Accio or Accio Work is a completely different creature that, for example, alibaba.com has a feature update biweekly or bimonth, since that system already exists for twenty six years, as you mentioned.

它从1999年就开始了。

It started from 1999.

所以每添加一个功能，你都需要与现有功能兼容，并且不能影响那些不熟悉新功能的客户。你确实需要做大量的A/B测试，并且对于任何未来的功能上线，都需要很多审批。

So every feature that you add on, you need to be compatible with the existing features and does not impact the customers who is not familiar with, you do need to have a lot of AB test and have a lot of kind of sign off for any future goal line.

而Accio和Accio Work则是每天都有新版本。

Well, Accio and Accio Work is, it has a version by daily basis.

所以每天都有新版本。

So every day, it has a new version.

哦，哇。

Oh, wow.

每天早上我起床，第一件事就是升级这个软件或这个代理，看看有什么新东西。

Every morning that I get up, the first thing is that I upgrade this software or this agent to see what's new there.

因为代理实际上很多功能都是自己写的，它从日常执行环境中收集所有信息和需求。

Since the agent actually, many of the features they write themself, it gathers all the informations, the requirements from all this kind of daily execution environments.

而且它还在不断排名。

And it's ranking.

实际上，人们帮忙排名、修复漏洞，而且很多代码都是它们自己写的。

Actually, people help to ranking and to fix the bugs and kind of a lot of coding is written by themselves.

所以它的发展速度不一样。

So it's just evolved in a different pace.

另外，我们要把两者整合起来，就要考虑阿里巴巴国际站是这个智能体的一部分，对吧？

And also, what we need to integrate two together is think about alibaba.com is part of harness of this agent, right?

我们需要先让这个网站的所有服务都能被调用。

We need to get this website first to get it all this services client.

它必须能被调用。

It can be invoked.

它必须能被这个智能体轻松使用和利用。

It can be used, leveraged by this agent easily.

所以它不只是为人类设计的，也是为智能体设计的。

So it's not only designed for human, but it's also designed for agent as well.

这两个工具需要同时运作。

And these two tools need to work simultaneously.

现在我们正在把Accio整合回阿里巴巴网站。

And now we are kind of integrating Accio back to alibaba.com.

我们称之为AI模式。

We call it the AI mode.

好的。

Okay.

意思是所有用户都可以把阿里巴巴网站当作他们的智能代理来使用。

Meaning that all the users can use alibaba.com as an agent for them.

所以我们是从一个创业团队开始，创建了这个业务。

So we started from a startup team to kind of create this business.

同时，我们也在利用现有的工程团队对整个平台进行升级，以便智能代理更容易使用。

And also, we are kind of using the existing engineering team to kind of give the whole platform upgrade, so that it easy to be used by the agent.

现在我们正在把这两个产品整合在一起。

And now we are integrating the two product together.

所以阿里巴巴网站上的所有用户都很容易接触到……

So all the users on alibaba.com easy to kind of assess to the...

也能接触到Accio。

To Accio as well.

所以这是在阿里巴巴网站内部逐步推进的。

So it's a step by step approach within alibaba.com.

这真的很吸引人。

That's really fascinating.

听起来Accio Work就像是阿里巴巴网站内部的一个创新中心、实验室或者独立业务。阿里巴巴网站因为其历史遗留和客户关系，需要保持连续性，所以更新频率是每两周甚至每月一次，而Accio Work几乎每天都在更新，甚至每天发布一个新版本。

So it sounds like Accio Work is almost like its own innovation hub or lab or business within alibaba.com, where it sounds like alibaba.com because rightly so of the legacy and the history with customers and the need for continuity is shipping updates at biweekly or even monthly rate, whereas Accio Work is literally updating almost every day or a version every day.

听起来它也在自我进化。

It sounds like it is also updating itself.

然后你提到了CLI，也就是命令行界面，它实际上开始学习，或者说你们正在实现，让它能够与阿里巴巴网站对话，对吧？

And then you had mentioned CLI or command line interface to then it's actually starting to learn or you're implementing, having it work to talk back to alibaba.com, right?

开始在那里整合，这样就能把更多的智能体功能融入到主营业务中。

To start integrating there so you can incorporate agentic features more into the main business.