占星学图书管理员，与菲利普·格雷夫斯

刚开始。

the start.

这很有道理，尤其是在所选择的名称方面。

That makes sense, certainly in terms of the name that was chosen.

但我认为，到冥王星被发现时，文化上已经发生了相当剧烈的转变。

But I do think something culturally had shifted quite dramatically by the time Pluto was discovered.

因为即使你翻阅1930年之后的《占星术》《占星家季刊》的早期刊期——显然这些刊物本身就有神智学背景，因为它是从神智学分会衍生出来的伦敦占星协会的官方刊物——

Because even if you look in the pages of, for instance, the early issues after 1930 of Astrology, The Astrologist Quarterly, which obviously did have some theosophical links anyway because it was the official paper of the Astrological Lodge of London, which had spun out as a Theosophical Lodge.

你也会看到像梅布尔·博德勒这样的人撰写文章，对冥王星进行非常详细的神话分析，并试图基于神话来推断冥王星应具有的主宰权。

But you see quite lot of people like Mabel Border writing in with these very detailed mythological analysis of Pluto and trying to reason on the basis of myth as to what rulership Pluto should have.

甚至在美国，莱恩·乔治也在做完全相同的事情，尽管他显然不是神智学者。

And even in The United States, Llearn George was doing exactly the same thing despite not being obviously a theosophist.

他更偏向于新思想运动的支持者。

He was more a new thought person.

他对新思想运动及其整个文化体系非常感兴趣。

He was quite interested in new thought and in that whole culture.

他在1930年代后期的一期《占星学公报》上写了一篇近乎权威的早期评估，这份刊物当时是他的季刊杂志，文章对与冥王星相关的神话进行了详尽分析，并据此判断冥王星应为天蝎座的守护星。

He wrote almost a definitive early assessment in one of the late nineteen thirty issues of the Astrological Bulletina, his quarterly, as it was then, magazine, which was a very detailed analysis of the myths associated with Pluto and judging on that basis that it should be the ruler of of Scorpio.

我的意思是，这距离冥王星的发现还不到九个月。

I mean, that that was that was within nine months of the discovery of the planet.

嗯。

Mhmm.

好的。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

所以人们更倾向于基于抽象概念化的方式去开展研究，这种做法如今变得更加普遍，尤其是在小行星和其他新发现的天体上，这很有趣，因为部分原因也源于一种假设——即这一直是如此。

So there's more of a jumping into doing things based on abstract conceptualizations, which has become much more common now, especially with things like asteroids and other newly discovered bodies to which is interesting because it's partially also based on the assumption that that's how it always has been.

不过，过去两年里，我和迪马拉做了一个研究项目，回溯了希腊天文学家和占星家最初是如何模仿美索不达米亚的命名方式，将诸神的名字分配给行星的；而这一过程很可能发生在柏拉图学派，因为柏拉图和他的学生菲利普是我们所知最早使用这些名称的希腊人，但他们选择名称时必须做出一些明确的判断。

Although that was something that's been interesting for me as a research project over the past two years where Dimitra and I went back and did an episode on the how the Greek astronomer and astrologers initially assigned the names of the gods to the planets in in imitation of the Mesopotamian assignments, but how and and that this probably actually happened in Plato's school because Plato and his student Philip are are the two first Greeks we know of to use those names, but that they had to make certain, like, judgment calls when they picked the name deliberately.

有时，这种选择会忽略掉早先与美索不达米亚神祇相关的信息，比如火星，他们选择了战神阿瑞斯，这仅捕捉到了美索不达米亚神尼尔加尔的一个方面——尼尔加尔同样也是战神。

And sometimes that left out information from the earlier names that were associated with the Mesopotamian gods, like with Mars, which they picked Ares, which was the god of war, which picked up on one part of the god Nergal in the Mesopotamian tradition, who was also a god of war.

但在美索不达米亚传统中，尼尔加尔也是冥界之神，这一点在将阿瑞斯或火星分配给这颗行星时却被忽略了。

But in the Mesopotamian tradition, Nergal was also a god of the underworld, and that sort of gets left out in the naming of Ares or or Mars as assigned to the planet.

所以从某种意义上说，最初的命名是有意为之的。

So there was a deliberateness to the original choosings in some sense.

但回到天王星，我们却看到了一种明确的经验主义成分，占星家们将其纳入出生图中。

But, so going back to Uranus, though, instead we have this deliberately empirical component where astrologers are putting it into birth charts.

他们观察它的行运，也研究事件星盘。

They're looking at its transits, and they're looking at event charts as well.

我想你提到过一个人，他注意到当天王星被激活时发生了一场火灾。

I think you record one person who who noted a fire when Uranus was activated.

至少有一例这样的情况。

Least one such case.

在占星出版物中，将天王星与火灾联系起来是一个相当普遍的主题。

It was quite a a common theme in in the astrological press of the association with fires.

我认为一旦这个观点被提出来，就不断被重复，更多的火灾被归因于天王星当时所处的位置。

I think once the idea was raised, it just kept being repeated that more fires were were linked to whatever Uranus was doing at that time.

我不太记得了，因为自从我写那篇文章以来已经过去很久了。

And I don't recall exactly because it's been a while since I wrote that article now.

但我认为肯定有多个案例。

But I think there was there were multiple cases certainly.

对。

Right.

还有那个著名的故事，不是吗？帕特里克·柯里记录了约翰·瓦利——这位最早的占星师之一——是如何确立天王星的象征意义的。他弄清楚了天王星的含义后，发现未来将有一个非常糟糕的行运即将发生。

And there's that famous isn't there that famous statement about John Varley or one of the earliest astrologers that Patrick Curry records about him developing the signification of Uranus and that it was he'd figured out what it meant and then he saw really bad looking transit coming up in the future.

于是他把自己关在了房子里。

And he so he shut himself inside his house.

但就在行运精确对位的那一刻，他的房子着火了，他兴奋得冲到外面，一边记录下这一幕，一边看着自己的房子燃烧殆尽，类似这样的情况。

But then at the at the time that the transit went exact, his house caught on fire, and he was so excited that he went outside and, like, was writing it down as as his house burned down or something like that.

是的。

Yes.

我记得这个故事。

I remember that one.

这是一个经典的小故事，对吧？

That's that's a classic anecdote, isn't it?

是的。

Yeah.

这是我最喜欢的故事之一。

It's one of my one of my favorite favorites.

那是一个引述，但几年后，也就是1828年，罗伯特·克罗斯·史密斯也写过关于天王星的另一段话。

So that was one quote, but there was another quote by an author just a few years later, four years later in 1828 by Robert Cross Smith, where he also writes about Uranus.

罗伯特·克罗斯·史密斯很重要，因为他出版了一本非常重要的占星期刊。

And Robert Cross Smith was important because he he published a very important astrological periodical.

对吧？

Right?

他是在该刊物末期担任《挣扎的占星师》的编辑。

Well, he he edited The Struggling Astrologer towards the end of its run.

他并没有创办它，但他作为编辑启动了《拉斐尔预言信使》，这是一本非常悠久的年鉴。

He didn't initiate it, but he he started Raphael's prophetic messenger as the editor, which is a very, very long running almanac.

它后来逐渐改名为拉斐尔年鉴，并一直延续到二十一世纪初。

It later changed its name gradually and became Raphael's almanac and it carried on right through to the early twenty first century.

我想它现在大概已经停刊了，但毫无疑问它持续了很长时间。

I think it's finally stopped now, probably, but it was very long running certainly.

但他还写了一本重要的书，名为《占星学手册》，于1828年出版，这是一本严肃的占星学教科书。

But he also he also wrote an important book called The Manual of Astrology, was published in 1828, and that was a serious astrological textbook.

因此，他在占星学的通俗层面和严肃层面之间起到了桥梁作用。

So he kind of straddled two sides of astrology, the popular side and the serious side.

也许他认为通俗层面更有利可图，但他真正希望推广的是严肃层面。

Perhaps the popular side he felt there was more money in it, but he really wanted the serious side to be what was promoted.

明白了。

Got it.

好的。

Okay.

这就是他写的。

So here's what he wrote.

你想读吗，还是我来？

Do you wanna read it or or should I?

我不确定是否

I don't know if

我乐意来读。

I'm happy to read it.

既然这样。

Since yeah.

你来读吧？

Why don't you do it?

如果你能的话，来，看。

If you can Here, see

我再放大一点。

I'll zoom in a little bit more.

为什么这个不起作用？

Why is that not working?

你能行吗

Can are you able

我可以从屏幕上读，但如果你能告诉我从哪里开始，那就太好了。

I I can read from the screen, but if you tell me where to start from, please.

我认为从开头开始。

I believe from the top.

从第一页的开头。

From the top of the first page.

第一页。

First page.

是的。

Yeah.

第一段。

First paragraph.

赫歇尔被发现的时间如此之近，以至于现存的人中没有人见过他超过一半的天体运行周期，因此不可能期望完整地阐述他的所有占星影响。

Herschel, having been so recently discovered that no one living has seen more than one half his celestial revolution through the fields of space, it cannot be expected that a complete system of his astrological effects could possibly be given.

但根据作者自身的经验，并结合他从天体哲学领域的专家和学者那里收集到的其他观测结果，这颗行星在本质上尤为不幸。

But from the author's own experience, aided by what other observations he could gather from men of skill and science in celestial philosophy, this planet is peculiarly unfortunate in his nature.

因此，当它通过与命盘中各种 significators 的相位作用而产生影响时，其影响也充满邪恶。

And of course, his influence when brought into action by aspecting the various significators in a nativity is replete with evil also.

它可以被比作土星和水星的综合效应。

He may be compared to the combined effects of Saturn and Mercury.

它的本质极其寒冷、干燥，毫无任何令人振奋的影响。

He is in nature extremely frigid, cold, dried, and void of any cheering influence.

它的影响确实具有破坏性，但其所造成的灾祸总是以一种奇特、难以解释且完全出人意料的方式发生。

His effects are truly malefic, but what he does of evil is always in a peculiarly strange, unaccountable, and totally unexpected manner.

它使那些受其影响而出生的人具有非常古怪和独特的性格。

He causes the native born under his influence to be of a very eccentric and original disposition.

这类人通常异常浪漫、不安定、热衷于变化，并不断追求新奇事物。

Those persons are generally unusually romantic, unsettled, addicted to change, and search searches after novelty.

如果月亮与水星和天王星形成良好相位，他们则会致力于探索自然的秘密，成为卓越的化学家，并通常在更隐秘的科学领域有深刻造诣。

If the moon on Mercury and Herschel be well aspected, they are searches after nature's secrets, excellent chemists, and usually profound in the more secret sciences.

他赋予人非凡的宽宏大量与崇高的精神，同时伴随着一种无法抑制的、强烈渴望从事超越常规的追求或发现的冲动。

He gives the most extraordinary magnanimity and loftiness of mind mixed with an uncontrollable and intense desire for pursuits or discoveries out of the track of custom.

在婚姻中，若他位于第七宫或对月亮构成刑克，会导致家庭事务中唯独缺乏幸福、秩序与社交性。

In marriage, if in the seventh house or afflicting the moon, he causes everything but happiness, want of order, and of sociability in domestic concerns.

夫妻之间冷漠懈怠，因最奇特、异常的原因而产生争执，亲人死亡等等。

Listlessness and coldness between man and wife, discord from the most entire strange and unusual causes, death of relatives, etcetera.

他在爱情方面同样有害，尤其对女性怀有敌意。

He is equally evil in love and particularly inimical to the fair sex.

他对高腿的不良相位也有助于显著缩短寿命。

His evil aspects to the high leg have also a tendency to materially lessen the space of life.

迄今为止，尚未为他指定特定的宫位，但根据数千次观测，我们有理由认为水瓶座是他十分偏爱的星座，他在风象三宫（双子座、天秤座、水瓶座）中较为幸运，而在火象、土象或水象星座中则不幸且不利。

As yet, there are no peculiar houses assigned to him, but we have reason to think from several thousand observations that the sign Aquarius is one wherein he much delights, that he is fortunate in the Aerie Trigon, Gemini, Libra, and Aquarius seek, unfortunately and unfortunate, in fiery, earthy, or watery signs.

好的。

Alright.

所以，是的，有太多象征意义已经变得如此普遍，以至于它们开始逐渐被淡化了。

So, yeah, there's just so many significations that became so commonplace that they're already starting to get down.

这种特立独行、出人意料的想法，以及许多类似的基本概念，到1820年代时已经明显成为讨论的一部分。

This notion of eccentricity, of unexpected things, of so many, like, basic concepts like that are already clearly in part of the discussion at this point in the 1820s.

是的。

Yes.

而且你可能也注意到了，他采纳了你之前展示的那段引文中的某些观点。

And you probably also noticed that he's taken some of the ideas that were in the earlier quote that you displayed.

我觉得我记不清自己写过什么了，但我觉得这是后来的那段，对吧？

And I think I don't remember from writing, but I think this is the later one, right?

对。

Yeah.

这是后来的那段。

This is the later one.

我觉得他当时也在阅读别人已经写过的相关内容，并在此基础上加以补充。

I think he was also reading what other people had written already about it and adding to that.

他试图综合所有关于天王星影响的现有理论。

He was attempting a synthesis of all the existing law on the influence of Uranus.

他的一些评论与之前的那个非常相似。

Some of the comments he makes are very, very similar to the earlier one.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，他可能受到了四年前发表作品的那位作者的影响，但同时也加入了一些额外的内容。

So it's like there's the potential he's getting influenced by the earlier author who published four years earlier, but then also he is adding, like, a few additional things.

因此，你能看到这种思想是如何逐渐发展起来的，以及意义是如何在早期就开始累积的。

So it's interesting how you can see it start to develop and the sort of, like, accretion of meanings, like, relatively early.

是的。

Yeah.

我们说这是相对早期的，因为当时他们并没有立即获得天王星的星历表，甚至可能一开始就没有准确的天王星星历表。

And and we say relatively early because one of the things is they didn't have ephemerides for Uranus immediately, and they didn't may not even even had accurate ephemerides for Uranus initially.

因此，几十年间出现了不同代的星历表，并且不断得到改进。

So there were different generations of ephemerides and then improving ones that came out over the decades.

我想这大概是正确的。

I think that's probably true.

而且我认为，在十九世纪早期，要成为一名熟练的占星师，首先你必须掌握主向法的计算，而这本身就需要大量的数学专业知识。

And I also think that in the early nineteenth century, to be a skilled astrologer, well, first of all, you had to for the most part, you had to know how to calculate primary directions, which which requires, as you know, a lot of mathematical expertise in the first place.

但我认为有些人甚至更进一步，亲自计算行星的位置。

But I think some even went further than that and actually calculated the positions of of the of the planets.

好的。

Okay.

因为当时他们没有现成的印刷资料，只能依靠星表等工具。

Well, they didn't have a printed source otherwise using tables and so on.

明白了。

Got it.

所以他们得从头开始全部手动计算。

So they would do everything from scratch.

这真的令人印象深刻。

That's really impressive.

我也这么认为。

I think so.

是的。

Yes.

但从我们现代人的角度来看，这种技艺确实令人惊叹。

Well, certainly from from our point of view as moderns, it's it's remarkable the skill that must have gone into that.

这也可能限制了当时能够达到这一水平的占星师人数。

And it probably also limited the number of of astrologists who had the skill to practice at that level at all.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

当然。

Absolutely.

明白。

Yeah.

因此，这成为了天王星意义体系的起源之一，你今天在任何一本基础占星教材中，只要涉及这颗行星、其相位或相关预测时，仍能看到这些相同的意义。

So that becomes part of the origins of the significations of Uranus that develop and and that you can see some of those same significations today in any basic textbook on astrology that that discusses the planet or its transits or any forecasts or predictions that that do so still today.

因此，看到这种发展过程很有趣，而要记录这一点，你需要查阅各种资料，不仅包括书籍，还有期刊文章、年鉴以及其他类似材料，通过接触这些仍存世的多样化来源，逐渐梳理出叙事脉络，从而拼凑出不同历史时期所发生的事情。

So it's interesting seeing how that developed and that that's something that you document by going through these collections of not just books, but also journal articles and almanacs and other things like that, and then starting to see the narrative emerge by having access to a variety of of whatever sources still survive that will allow us to to piece together a picture of what was happening during different time periods.

正是如此。

Exactly.

这正是我整理整个藏品的主要目标之一，正如你今晚一开始谈话时提到的，克里斯，如果没有接触到完整的一手资料谱系，你最终只能靠猜测，遗漏掉导致这些观念传承下去的关键环节，甚至在某些情况下，无法得知这些观念最初源自何处，以及究竟是谁首次将它们付诸印刷。

And that that is one of my major aims with the whole collection as I think you alluded to right at the beginning of our our talks this evening, Chris, which is that without access to a full spectrum of primary source material, you are simply going to be ending up guessing and missing vital cogs in the in the chain of events that that cause these ideas to be passed down or or even the in some cases, where they first came from and who first actually put them in print at all.

是的。

Yeah.

绝对如此。

Absolutely.

或者仅凭有限的证据，或其他类似因素，得出错误的结论。

Or drawing mistaken conclusions just based on limited evidence or or other things like that.

正是如此。

Exactly.

是的。

Yeah.

好吧。

So alright.

所以这本书中有一篇文章追溯了天王星在被发现后头几十年的早期发展。

So this that's one essay in the book is tracing the early developments of Uranus for the first few decades after its discovery.

然后你还有其他文章，就像你所说的，关于海王星和冥王星，以及它们在占星传统中的早期解读。

And then you have other essays, like you said, on Neptune and Pluto and the early treatments of those in the astrological tradition.

没错。

That's right.

关于这两颗行星，我实际上是在写天王星这篇文章之前就着手研究了。

And with those two, I actually worked on them before the Uranus essay.

它们篇幅稍短一些，我最初更专注于海王星和冥王星现代主星传统的演变。

They were a little bit shorter, and I was more narrowly focused in the first instance on the development of the modern rulership traditions around Neptune and Pluto.

而当我开始写天王星这篇文章时，我给自己更多自由去探索其意义的完整历史脉络。

Whereas when I came to do the Uranus essay, I I allowed myself more latitude to explore the entire chronology or the development of its meaning.

所以可以说，这是一篇更广泛、更深入的文章。

So it's actually a broader, more thorough essay, you could say.

但我仍然认为，关于海王星和冥王星与其所属星座关系的统治权观念的发展，也是一个非常引人入胜的历史案例。

But I still think that the the development of ideas on the rulerships of the sign relationships associated with Neptune and Pluto is is also a fascinating historical case study.

尤其是当我们谈到冥王星时，因为在它被发现之前，人们就对它的统治权进行了大量推测，而且甚至还在使用正确的行星名称之外进行猜测。

And all the more so when we get to Pluto because there were so many speculations about its rulership before it was discovered and using the correct name of the planet besides.

好的。

Okay.

所以是的。

So yeah.

所以你追溯了这个过程，因为当时并没有立即达成共识，而是占星师们对如何将外行星分配给黄道十二宫的星座展开了大量争论。

So in terms of you you traced it because it wasn't immediately agreed upon, but there was, like, lots of debate between astrologers over assigning the outer planets to signs of the zodiac.

没错。

That's right.

尤其是在冥王星的情况下，在它被发现之前，占星师们几乎平分秋色，一方认为它应该主宰白羊座，另一方则认为它应该主宰天蝎座。

And in Pluto's case in particular, there was a fairly even split before it was discovered between astrologers arguing that it should rule Aries and that it should rule Scorpio.

而在它被发现之后，观点迅速几乎一致地倾向于天蝎座，但仍有一些不同的声音。

And after its discovery, very, very rapidly opinions more or less converged around Scorpio, but there were still outliers.

仍然有人给《占星季刊》写信，提出完全不同的星座，既不是白羊座也不是天蝎座。

There were still people writing into astrology astrologists quarterly and proposing completely different signs that weren't either Aries or Scorpius.

那确实是一个相当混乱的时期，直到大家逐渐接受冥王星主宰天蝎座这一观点。

That it was quite a a confused time really until it sort of settled around the idea that Pluto ruled Scorpio.

好的。

Okay.

那这个共识是什么时候达成的？

And does that get settled what?

是在20世纪70年代左右吗？

By like the nineteen seventies or or somewhere around there?

嗯，最终的共识可能更接近那个时期。

Well, if you the ultimate settlement might be more around then.

但我想，除了卡尔·佩恩·托比之外，1935年之后几乎没有人再坚持冥王星主宰白羊座的观点了。

But I think other than Karl Paine Toby, there was virtually nobody after around 1935 who was still holding out the idea that Pluto rules Ares.

我认为托比在这方面是个非常独特的怪人，他一直到20世纪50年代都坚持认为冥王星主宰白羊座。

And I think Toby was just an exceptional kind of eccentric in that respect when he put forward his concept that Pluto rules Aries right through to the 1950s.

所以那时他完全是夜间的了。

So he was just very much nightly at that point.

但我觉得，当你考虑到美国的莱恩·乔治和德国的弗里茨·布伦胡布纳时，他们两人是强烈主张冥王星主宰天蝎座的顶尖人物，很多人因此追随了他们的观点。

But I think when you consider Llearn George in The United States and Fritz Brunhubner in Germany, they were just two of the leading lights who proposed Scorpio with such strength of conviction that I think a lot of other people follow.

但在许多情况下，人们是独立得出相同结论的。

But in many cases, people independently came to the same conclusion.

我认为这其中很大一部分是基于神话。

And I think a lot of it was based on myth.

好的。

Okay.

是基于冥王星的神话，因为冥王星作为冥界之神的特质，与天蝎座联系起来，而天蝎座早已与第八宫、死亡以及其他类似事物相关联吗？

On taking the myth of Pluto and because of the nature of that myth of Pluto as the god of the underworld and then associating that with Scorpio, which had become associated with the eighth house and death and other things like that?

差不多吧。

More or less.

我的意思是，具体的论点我现在记不太清了，因为这篇论文我大概是2016年左右写的，已经过去好几年了。

I mean, there there's there's I don't recall the exact arguments now because, again, I wrote this this particular essay probably 2016 around then, so it's it's quite a few years now.

但如果你仔细阅读冥王星文章中的那些引文，就能清楚地看到不同观点是如何进行推理的。

But if you look through some of the quotations in the Pluto essay, you can see exactly how the different stories were reasoning.

在乔治的部分，我引用了大量内容，因为我认为这很好地说明了早在1930年，从神话出发进行推理的方式就已经被普遍接受了——远在小行星被发现之前（当然，第一批小行星那时才刚开始被发现）。

And the one in George's, I I quoted quite extensively from that, because I think it's just a very good example of how the the use of reasoning from myth had become normalized already in 1930, long before the asteroids were I don't know, should say, because obviously, the first asteroids were really being discovered.

但当小行星占星术在20世纪70年代中期真正兴起时，此前几乎没有什么相关实践。

But when asteroid astrology really took off, which was in the mid nineteen seventies, there was very little of it before then.

我认为，从那以后，神话推理迅速成为绝大多数使用小行星的占星师所依赖的核心方法。

I think the reasoning for myth became a kind of mainstay of method very, very rapidly after that for most of the astrologers who used the asteroids at all.

对的。

Right.

我一向认为这与荣格以及荣格心理学在20世纪30年代由罗杰等人引入占星学有关。

I'd always associate that with, like, Jung and the integration of Jung into astrology starting with Roger in the nineteen thirties.

所以如果这种倾向——即对神话的高度重视——实际上出现得更早，那就很有意思了。

So that's interesting if some of that tendency towards myth and focusing so much on myth started coming in a little earlier.

是的，早得多。

Yes, quite a bit earlier.

事实上，那些后来成为鲁迪哈尔《人格的占星学》一书的文章，该书于1936年出版。

The fact that, well, the articles that became Rudhyar's book, The Astrology of Personality, which was published in 1936.

我认为，朝这个方向发展的最早文章可能出现在两三年前的美国占星杂志上。

I think the first articles towards that appeared probably two or three years earlier in American astrology magazines.

所以乔治在1930年就已经完全基于这种思路进行推理了。

So George was reasoning completely from this in 1930.

因此，我不认为这与荣格有关，因为我觉得荣格的作品当时还没传到卡姆登和乔治这样的人手中。

And so I don't think this had anything to do with Jung because I didn't think Jung's works had even reached people like Camden and George.

这种推理方式有着完全不同的传承脉络。

There was a completely different lineage for how that reasoning was coming through.

我认为其中很多源自神智学，但同时在二十世纪之交的美国，还兴起了一股新的思想运动，而这种思想在二十一世纪初又以‘吸引力法则’等形式重新复兴，其实这些都是百年前新思想运动的一部分。

I think a lot of it was theosophical, but there was also this new thought movement in the turn of the twentieth century America, of which there's been a kind of revival in the early twentieth twenty first century with things like the law of attraction, which is all part of new thought a hundred years earlier.

所以我认为占星师们使用神话的原因是多方面的，荣格只是其中之一，但他并不是第一个。

And so I think there were multiple reasons why astrologists used myth, and Jung was just one of them, but he wasn't the first.

明白了。

Got it.

好的。

Okay.

这真的很有趣。

That's really interesting.

这种做法，你知道，与天王星的情况截然不同，因为塔纳斯等人指出，神话与占星家通常与天王星关联的含义几乎没有关系，这在某种程度上非常独特。

And that approach, you know, differs so starkly compared to to Uranus where they're approaching it clearly because the that's one of the things that Tarnas, for example, points out is that the myth obviously has little to do with the significations that astrologers tend to associate with Uranus, which is quite unique in some ways.

海王星的情况如何？

What was the case with Neptune?

它是否也像天王星一样，主要以经验主义的方式被看待？

Was it again approached more empirically in the same way that Uranus was?

还是它是如何发展的？

Or how did that develop?

我认为它主要是经验性的。

I think it was probably mainly empirical.

是的。

Yes.

因为，一方面，在海王星被发现后的头几十年里，关于占星学海王星的文献非常少。

Because, well, for one thing, there was very little written about astrological Neptune at all in the first few decades after its discovery.

这部分是因为在非常活跃的二三十年代与十八世纪五十年代和六十年代之间，活跃的占星师群体规模略有减少。

And this was partly due to the fact that there was a slight reduction in the size of the active astrologer community between the very busy twenties and thirties time and the eighteen fifties and eighteen sixties.

我认为，到1850年时，许多顶尖的占星师已经停止撰写新书了。

I I think a lot of the leading astrologers had ceased to write new books by 1850.

当时在英国仍有大约两位在继续写作。

There were about two who was in England who were still doing so.

一位是威廉·约瑟夫·西蒙尼特，另一位是理查德·詹姆斯·莫里斯和扎德·基尔。

One was William Joseph Simonite, and the other was Richard James Morris and Zad Kiel.

他们可能是当时仍在坚持的两位主要人物。

They were probably the two leading ones who were still going at that time.

但我认为，他们两人都相当倾向于认为，占星实践必须基于传统与经验主义的结合。

But I think they were both fairly much in of of the mindset that you had to practice astrology based on a combination of tradition and empiricism.

我认为，这确实花了数十年时间，直到七十年代末。

And I think it took certainly decades until the late seventies.

我认为在阿尔弗雷德·皮尔斯1880年创办的期刊《乌拉尼亚》中，那是他的第一份刊物。

I think in Alfred Pierce's journal published in 1880, his first one, which was called Urania.

这份期刊持续不到一年。

It lasted for less than a year.

我认为当时在上面发表了一些关于海王星的初步观点。

I think there was an initial series of ideas about Neptune that appeared in that.

我们说的是从1846年算起的三十四年。

And, you know, we're talking thirty four years from 1846.

在这么长的一段时间里，几乎没有人撰写相关内容。

That's quite a long time period when very little was written.

如果占星师们当时已经在用神话的方式思考海王星，那么扎德基尔和西蒙尼特等人在19世纪40年代末就该立刻发表对它的解读了。

I think if astrologists have been reasoning mythologically about Neptune, then there would be nothing to stop people like Zadkiel and Simmonite from immediately pronouncing on its meaning in in the late eighteen forties.

但实际上，当时更多是一种克制和观望的态度。

But there was very, very much more a case of restraint and a wait and see approach.

让我们先研究它，看看它到底有什么作用。

Let's let's study it and find out what it actually does.

所以我认为这与对天王星的处理方式非常相似，直到二十世纪初，我们才看到这种做法被彻底革新，转变为立即根据天体名称建立关联的方式。

So I think this was very similar to the approach for Uranus, and it's not brilliant till we get to the early twentieth century that we see this approach revolutionized and changed to one of immediately making associations based on the names of the bodies.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

这说得通。

That makes sense.

而且这也很有意思，尤其是对于天王星而言，当时的人们在很大程度上仍处于传统框架内对其进行发展和研究，因为这些仍然是直接借鉴十七世纪占星传统的占星师，比如威廉·利利等作者。

And it's also interesting, especially with Uranus, how much they are developing and studying it within a largely traditional context because these are still astrologers that are drawing directly on that seventeenth century stream of astrology with with authors like William Lilly and other authors like that.

这些作者对十九世纪初的占星师仍有深远影响，因此当你观察他们如何试图通过实证方法探究天王星的含义时，他们基本上仍是在这一晚期传统框架内进行的。

They're still very influential on the astrologers of the early eighteen hundreds so that when you look at how they're trying to investigate its meaning empirically, they're largely doing it in that late traditional framework.

没错，克里斯。

Exactly, Chris.

这正是我认为现代占星与传统占星之间的分歧在二十世纪后期及之后被人为放大的一个例子，甚至对传统占星师来说，这种分歧几乎成了一种自豪的标志。

And this is one thing where I think the sort of schism between modern astrology and traditional astrology has been artificially expanded in the late twentieth century and since the late twentieth century, and it's almost become a point of of pride for traditional astrologers.

在许多情况下，我们并不使用外行星。

We don't use the outer planets in many cases.

我不是说所有情况，因为你知道，有些占星师仍然使用传统方法。

I'm not saying all cases because there are, as you know, there are astrologers who use the but use the traditional methods.

但对于那些生活在天王星等行星被发现时代的人来说，这是一种自然且显然合乎逻辑的做法。

But this was this was just a natural and obviously logical seeming approach to astrologers who lived through the times when planets like Uranus were discovered.

他们并没有固守传统到不愿考虑新发现的行星可能具有某种价值和占星意义的程度。

They weren't wedded to tradition singularly to the extent that they weren't prepared to consider that a newly discovered planet should have some value and some astrological significance.

对。

Right.

这只是一个显而易见的合乎逻辑的结论，因为他们还没有远离所谓的传统占星术，不至于将其神化。

Which is just an obvious logical conclusion because they weren't far enough removed from quote unquote traditional astrology to fetishize it yet.

我认为这正是我们今天所看到的差异的一部分，因为当时占星术在二十世纪发生了转变，无论你如何定义这种转变。

And I think that's part of the difference that we see today because then there was that change in the tradition in in terms of whatever astrology became in the twentieth century and how however you would wanna characterize that.

随后，在二十世纪八九十年代，出现了回归传统占星术的运动，人们重新发掘了一些最早的原始文献，这些文献所实践的占星术与二十世纪七十年代和八十年代的占星术已有很大不同。

And then we had that the arising of that back to traditional astrology movement that started in the nineteen eighties and nineteen nineties where there were a recovery of some of the earliest source texts, which were doing astrology differently compared to to what it had turned into by like the 1970s and 1980s.

当然。

Absolutely.

我认为我完全理解那些特别专注于复兴早期技法的占星师，为什么希望在尽可能纯净的环境中对这些技法进行检验——我该说，就像在培养皿中一样。

And I think I I can totally understand why astrologists who were particularly focusing on rediscovering earlier techniques wanted to put them to the test in as pure a petri dish, I should say, as as possible.

因为如果你用任何现代技法来干扰这些传统技法，你就无法使用与最初使用这些技法的占星师完全相同的技法体系。

Because if you start contaminating those techniques with modern techniques of any kind, you're not going to be using the exact same set of techniques that the people who originally the astrologers who originally used those techniques were using.

所以我完全理解这种做法，但同样，我也非常认同罗布·汉德的观点，他过去多次表达过这一看法；虽然我最近没和他沟通过，但我推测他现在依然持这种立场，即我们需要将过去真正有效的技法与我们对天体的现代知识，甚至一些在现代被成功应用的其他技法结合起来。

So I can totally understand that as an approach, but equally, I have a lot of sympathy with Rob Hand's view as he has expressed a number of times in the past, and I haven't spoken to him recently, but I presume he still thinks along these lines, which is that we need to synthesise the best of the the techniques from the past that actually work with our modern knowledge of celestial bodies and and possibly even other techniques that have been put to good use in modern times.

这样我们最终会形成一种后现代占星术，融合了各个时代最优秀的技法。

And we will then end up with a sort of postmodern astrology that that incorporates the best techniques from all eras.

是的，完全正确。

Yeah, absolutely.

因为占星术在每一个辉煌时期都是如此：它会与当时传承下来的古老传统，以及一些当代传统相结合，形成一种新的综合体系，然后被传递给接下来的几个世纪。

Because astrology, that's what happens with astrology in every great era of astrology is that it gets synthesized with whatever the ancient you know, traditions are that are are received and passed forward at that point with that with whatever some of the contemporary traditions are, and it creates a new synthesis, which is then passed forward for the next few centuries.

历史上每一个主要的占星传统在不同时期都经历过这样的过程。

And that's true of, like, every major tradition of astrology at different points down through history.

它从来不是一个单一、不变的体系，有些人一过度理想化古代或传统占星术，就会产生这种错误的认识，以为它一直是固定不变的，但事实从来不是这样。

It's never been this singular, unchanging system that some people develop this mistaken notion when you start to over idealize ancient or traditional astrology that it was this one singular thing that was unchanging, but it's never it's never been that.

我实际上在关于希腊化占星术的书的最后一页提到了这一点，因为我意识到，当占星师开始理想化或过度理想化过去时，有时会走向原教旨主义。

And that was something I ended actually the very last page of my book on Hellenistic astrology with because I was aware of the tendency towards fundamentalism that can sometimes come when astrologers start to idealize or over idealize the past.

因此，我以呼吁反对原教旨主义作为结尾，仅仅指出占星术始终在成长和变化。

And I ended it with a call for not fundamentalism for that reason by simply pointing out that astrology has always been growing and changing.

是的。

Yeah.

不，我完全能理解你在这个问题上的观点。

No, I can totally relate to your point of view on that one.

你可能也注意到了，在我关于宫位含义变迁的讲座中，我指出，无论是古希腊占星时期，还是中世纪时期，占星师们之间都存在相当大的多样性——我应该说，是古希腊占星师之间，以及中世纪时期，许多含义从一位占星师传递到下一位时，都被修改或调整了。

You probably noticed as well in my lecture on the changing significations according to the astrological places or houses that I pointed out that there was considerable diversity within both the ancient Greek astrological period or among the ancient Greek astrologers, I should say, and also in the medieval period where a lot was carried forward from one astrologer to the next, but quite a few of the meanings were changed or modified as well.

这恰恰证明了你的观点：从来不存在一个单一固定的传统。

And this really proves your point that there was no singular fixed tradition.

每一位占星师，即使在古代，只要长期实践，并且恰好决定写书，往往都会形成自己的见解和创新，或者在某些情况下，他们可能继承了本地的传统，而这些传统来自他们的老师，而这些老师甚至可能从未留下任何文字记录。

Every astrologer, even in ancient times, who was practising for a long time tended to have their own- and who actually saw fit to write a book, tended to have their own take and their own innovations, or in some cases, perhaps their local traditions which they had received through teachers, which the teachers might not have even left any recorded work.

所以我们发现这种显著的差异。

So, we find this considerable variation.

当然，关于马库斯·马戈利阿斯的观念为何在许多方面与其他占星家如此不同，已经有很多争论，这只是一个例子。

Of course, there's been a lot of debate on why the ideas of Marcus Magnolias are so different in many respects from those of other astrologers, and that's just one example of this.

我应该说，其他古代占星家。

Other ancient astrologists, I should say.

是的。

Yeah.

那我们来谈谈这个吧，因为这实际上是您书中第一篇论文，我认为也是最长的一篇，您从希腊传统最早的资料开始，系统地梳理了各宫位的含义，一直追溯到大约十七世纪，对吧？

So let's talk about that because that's actually the first essay in your book, it's I think it's the largest one, which is that you do a survey of the significations of the houses starting with the earliest sources in the Hellenistic tradition and then working your way all the way forward until the, I think, the seventeenth century, right?

甚至更晚？

Or even further?

主要到十七世纪为止。

Mainly to the seventeenth century.

但我也涵盖了艾伦·利奥，以展示他的观点与之前所有内容有多么不同。

But I do also cover Alan Leo just to show how much his ideas differed from everything before.

而且部分也是为了表明，他使用了一种知识体系来试图为其所赋予的宫位含义提供正当性。

And also partly to show the fact that he was using an intellectual system to try to justify the house significations he accorded.

在这方面，库拉辛和奥菲与莫兰有相似之处。

And in that respect, Curacin and Aufy had something in common with Morin.

他们都试图将宫位存在的整个理由理性化，并让这种理性化影响他们的观点，将宫位归入各种不同的类别中。

They both tried to intellectualize the whole rationale for why there should be houses and allowed that influence their ideas by putting them into groups of various kinds.

因此，有趣的是，利奥在这一点上实际上与莫兰成了志同道合者。

And so curiously enough, Leo comes out as actually a kindred spirit with morale on that one particular point.

嗯。

Mhmm.

好的。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

你在其中所做的，是收集所有你能获得的资料——几乎两千年的占星学教材，这些教材都给出了十二宫的含义，然后你逐一记录，比如，从特拉西斯等公元一世纪左右的占星家开始，一直到中世纪、希腊化传统、中世纪传统和文艺复兴传统，列出他们所赋予的宫位含义，并直接引用他们译本或原始文本中的原话。

So what you do in that is you take all of the sources that you have available to you, which is almost two thousand years of astrological textbooks that give the meanings of the 12 houses, and then you go through and record, you know, what such and such astrologer like, starting with Thraceless and other astrologers around the first century and then going through the medieval the Hellenistic tradition and then the medieval traditions and then the Renaissance traditions and just listing those significations that they give and quoting them directly from either translations or from the original texts.

看到这种发展过程，尤其是这种连续性——实际上，在这两千年的传统中，连续性出人意料地相当显著——以及因各种原因出现的变化、创新或分歧，这一点极具启发性和教育意义。

And there's something incredibly illustrative and educational about seeing the development and both the continuity since there is quite a bit of continuity actually surprisingly over the course of that two thousand year tradition, but then also the instances of changes or innovation or divergence for different reasons.

没错，克里斯。

Exactly, Chris.

我当初想展示的，正是这种整体图景有多么复杂。

And that was one of the things I set out to illustrate was just how complex the overall picture was.

正如你自己说的，艾伦，根本不存在什么单一的传统占星术。

There was no singular, as you said yourself, Alan, there was no singular traditional astrology.

在不同时期，通过不同占星师的思维过滤，出现了各种各样的变体形式。

There were all these variant forms of it that were developing at different times and through the filter of the minds of individual astrologers.

我认为，最终几乎不可能完全将占星术与占星师本身割裂开来，因为任何有思想的占星师都不会只是简单地复制前人说过的话。

And I think ultimately, it's it's virtually impossible to completely separate astrology from the astrologer in that any astrologer who has a mind is not just going to copy what others said before.

当然，有些人可能很满足于一种职业实践，他们说：‘这是我老师教的’，或者‘这是我所学的书里写的’。

I mean, some might be quite happy just to have a professional practice where they say this is what my teacher has said, or this is what the book I studied from has said.

我会用这种方法，我觉得我的客户也会喜欢。

I'm going to use this method, and I think my clients will like it.

我的意思是，你可以采取一种非常简单的方法。

I mean, you can adopt a very simple approach.

我不认为大多数占星师会这么做。

I don't think most astrologers do that.

我认为大多数占星师的思考要深刻得多，而且这种情况在历史上一直存在。

I think most astrologers think for themselves much more deeply than that, and that has happened throughout history.

并非只有现代人会背离传统。

It's not just moderns who have been diverging from tradition.

过去的传统占星师在他们那个时代也会认为自己是现代人，因为他们生活在属于他们的当下。

Traditional astrologers of the past who in their day would have thought of themselves as moderns because they were existing in the present as it was for them.

他们之间也同样以这种方式相互背离。

They diverged from each other in just the same kind of way.

当然。

Sure.

对。

Yeah.

而且，由于某些技术结构的延续性，比如将七个传统行星分配到特定宫位的‘行星喜乐’体系，实际上在长达一千年的历史中，不同传统之间在将金星与第五宫、木星与第十一宫、土星与第十二宫等关联上保持了大量一致性。

And and there was some continuities due to sometimes technical structures, like, for example, the planetary joys scheme that assigned the seven traditional planets to specific houses did result in some a lot of continuities actually across the traditions for about a thousand years in terms of associating with Venus with the fifth house and different things that derive from that or associating Jupiter with the eleventh house or Saturn with the twelfth and things that they then derive from that.

但我认为其中一个差异在于，占星师之间存在一种张力：一方面，他们通常会尽力传承从老师或所读书籍中继承的传统含义；

But I think one of the differences is that because astrologers there there's a tension between passing on the inherited tradition, which astrologers usually try to do pretty well in giving what to them are the traditional significations from their teachers or the books that they read.

但另一方面，占星师同时也是实践者，他们不断将这些技术应用于客户、自己以及家人的星盘中，并且实际观察到一些变化——这些变化有时在原型层面上与继承的宫位含义相似，比如宫位的象征意义。

But then the difference is that astrologers are also practitioners that are applying the techniques in the chart of clients and their own chart and family members constantly, and they're actually noticing variations come up which are sometimes like archetypally similar to the inherited significations, let's say of the houses.

但这些变化在他们所处的时代又略有不同，于是他们有时会把这些观察补充进自己对宫位含义的理解中。

But they're like a slight variation of it in their own time, which they'll then sometimes add to their observations about what a house means.

是的。

Yeah.

克里斯，我认为你说得完全正确。

I think that's absolutely right, Chris.

我认为，任何在专业实践中积累了多年经验的人，几乎肯定会形成自己对占星术的一些独到见解。

And I think anybody who has had a busy professional practice for quite a few years is almost certain to have developed some of their own insights into astrology.

如果他们有动力写书，就会把这些见解写进自己的著作中。

And if they're motivated to write a book, they will include those insights in their book then.

这完全是经验主义。

That is pure empiricism, really.

我不能说它严格符合现代科学的定义，因为现代科学要求大样本量等等，但它仍然是一种基于大量案例经验的经验主义——占星师在这些案例中观察到，某个特定星体位置似乎产生了特定的影响。

I- one can't necessarily call it scientific in the strictest modern definition of science that requires large sample sizes and so on, but it's still a kind of empiricism based on an experience of a number of cases where it seemed to the astrologer to be the case that a particular placement was having a particular effect.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

因此，关于这一点，我们之前讨论过，你提到早期存在两种传统，在十二宫意义的概念出现之后，这两种传统分别赋予了十二宫不同的意义。在我的书中，我提出，很可能有一部文本首次引入了十二宫的初始意义体系，这部文本归于赫尔墨斯·特里斯梅吉斯托斯，并被后来的希腊化占星师多次引用。

So in terms of that, one of the things that we discussed is that you talk about early on how there were these two traditions, the true two earliest traditions of assigning significations to the 12 houses after that that concept was introduced, which in my book, argued that there was one text that probably introduced the initial set of significations for the 12 houses, which was attributed to Hermes Trismegistus and was cited by a number of later Hellenistic astrologers.

然后，另一部较晚的文本归于另一位神话人物阿斯克勒庇俄斯，它只给出了前八个宫位的意义。

And then there was another set of significations in a later text that was attributed to another mythical author named Asclepius that just gave a set of significations for the first eight houses.

这些意义最终被瓦伦斯等后来的作者综合与融合。

And those eventually get synthesized and combined in later authors by Vadius Valens.

但你指出的一点是，在像特拉西卢斯和安提奥库斯这样的最早作者那里，这些被当作独立的体系来处理，因此你最初将十二宫体系（dodecotropos）和八宫体系（octotropos，即八宫转动体系）分成了两个独立的部分。

But one of the things that you point out is how those were treated as separate sets in some of the earliest authors like Thrasyllus and Antiochus so that you initially set it up as two separate sections for the dodecotropos, the 12 fold system, and the octotropos, which is the eight fold or eight turning system.

是的。

Yeah.

因为在流传至今的文本中，我至少发现了四个例子，其中只给前八个宫位赋予了含义。

Because in the in the texts that have come down to us, there are at least four examples I came across where there are meanings assigned to just the first eight places.

正如你自己所说，我认为绝大多数——如果不是全部——占星师都会同时使用这套体系和十二宫体系。

Now, as you say yourself, I think probably most, if not all astrologers use that system alongside the 12 fold system.

但事实是，这种替代方法在传统中存在了数个世纪，不过正如你所说，它最终逐渐消失了，我不记得在古典晚期之后还有任何文献显示有人仍在仅使用前八个宫位的含义，你有吗？

But the fact is that it was an alternative method that existed in the tradition for a number of centuries, but I think as you said, it did eventually sort of fizzle out, and I'm not aware of any sources beyond the sort of late classical period where people are still using significations only from the first eight places, are you?

其实它只是被吸收了，因为它只是在已有的十二宫体系基础上增加了一组含义。

Well, it just gets subsumed because it was just like an additional set of significations that somebody added to the already existing 12 fold system.

所以它并没有真正消失，因为我们至今仍在使用那位作者提出的一些修改，其中就包括他的一项修改。

And so it's not that it ceases to exist because actually we still use some of the modifications that that author proposed, which is one of the modifications he made.

正如他所说，在赫尔墨斯的原始体系中，死亡被分配给了第七宫，即太阳每日落下的地方。

As he said, in the original system by Hermes, death was assigned to the seventh house where the sun sets each day.

但《阿斯克勒庇俄斯》文本中的作者在八重体系中提出，死亡应归属于第八宫，这是基于他自身的内在逻辑和理由，而这一观点最终成为主流，后世的占星家大多沿用至今。

But the author of the Asclepius text in the eight fold system said that death should be assigned to the eight eighth house for his own internal logic and rationale, and that's actually the one that became the dominant approach in that subsequent astrologers decided to go with the most part down to the present day.

因此，后来的体系以一些有趣的方式对早期体系进行了修改。

So there's interesting ways that that later system modified the early one.

在某些情况下，占星家们选择了这一修改后的版本，而非最初的提议。

And in some instances instances, astrologers followed that instead of the the original proposal.

不过，你和我曾讨论过一点，你在书中也提到过：在二十世纪，当一些古代文本被重新发现时，一些早期的学术文献中出现了我所认为——我相信大多数学者也认同——的误解，即认为这两种体系是两种截然不同的划分整个星盘的方式，仿佛存在一种将宫位划分为12个部分的系统（正如我们今天所知），同时又存在另一种独立的系统，将整个星盘划分为八个部分或八组宫位。

So one of things you and I talked about though is that and that you mentioned in the book is that in the twentieth century, when some of these ancient texts were rediscovered, there was what I I believe and I think most academics believe to be this misconceptualization at this point in some of the early academic texts that this these were two different ways of dividing up the entire chart and that there was somehow a way of dividing the houses into 12 sectors as we know today, but that there was somehow a separate system for dividing the entire chart into eight sectors or eight sets of houses.

而且，像布歇·勒克莱尔这样的早期学术著作确实持这种观点。

But and and some of the early academic texts like Bouche Leclerc state this and thought that that was the case.

一些早期的占星文献也认为情况如此。

And some of the early astrological texts thought that this was the case.

但近几十年来，我所了解的大多数研究者都指出，早在最早研究马尼利乌斯的一位学者那里，这种误解就开始被纠正了，只是我一时想不起他的名字。

But in more recent decades, most of the researchers that I'm aware of have pointed out that starting with, I think, as early as an academic who wrote on Manilius, who I'm having trouble remembering his name.

豪斯曼。

Houseman.

是的

Yeah.

曾指出，这从来不是一个独立的八宫划分系统。

Pointed out at one point that it was never a separate eightfold house division.

它只是为十二宫系统中的前八个宫位提出的一组象征意义。

It was just a set of significations that were being proposed for the first eight houses of the twelvefold system.

其中一点是，它引入了一套关于家庭成员的分配：例如，兄弟姐妹是第三宫，父母是第四宫，子女是第五宫，以此类推。

And one of the things that it did is it introduced a set of assignments for family members for saying that, like, siblings is the third house, parents is the fourth house, children is the fifth, and so on and so forth.

所以我们之前讨论过这一点，因为现在这已经不再是争议点——我认为这已经很少被争论了，但如果你读二十世纪的一些旧文献，会发现当时人们更强烈地认为这代表了一套独立的八宫系统，而非十二宫。

So this is something we were we were talking about because then it becomes the point of not debate, because I don't think it's debated that much anymore, but that there were Depending on if you read some older texts in the twentieth century, a stronger belief that this represented a separate system of eight houses instead of 12 at one point.

是的，完全正确，克里斯。

Yeah, absolutely, Chris.

我们在这里的观点非常一致，因为我确实研究过这个问题，读过戈尔德——G.P.戈尔德——这位研究马尼利乌斯的顶尖学者的观点，还有其他人所说的内容。

And we're very much on the same wavelength here because I did look into this, and I read what Gould, GP Gould, who was one of the great latest scholars on had to say, as well as what sorry, sorry, on Manilius, I should say, as well as what said.

他们一致认为，当马尼利乌斯提到八个宫位的象征意义时，指的是十二宫中的八个。

And they were absolutely in agreement that when Manilius described significations in eight places, it was eight of 12.

现在，我认为发生的情况是，翻译家和学者们缺乏对当时占星家们所说内容的完整学术背景知识。

Now, I think what must have happened is that translators and scholars like didn't have all the background of academic knowledge of what astrologists were saying at all to draw on.

因此，他们只是做了一些假设。

So they kind of just made assumptions.

他们看到列出了八个位置。

They saw eight places listed.

他们就直接假设：嗯，他一定是把体系分成了八部分。

They just assumed, well, he must be divided into eight.

在没有进一步证据、没有进一步核查的情况下，你可以理解他们为什么会犯这个错误。

And without further evidence, without further checking, you can sort of understand why they made that mistake.

正如你所说，像海斯曼和古尔德这样的学者通过更敏锐的视角研读文本后，彻底否定了这种观点。

And as you say, it was comprehensively dismissed by academics such as Heusmann and Gould who read the text with a much sharper eye.

海斯曼实际上在1903年至1930年间写作，我认为他的五卷本《努内利乌斯》批判性版本最初于1903年至1930年间出版，第二版则出现在1937年。

And Heusmann was writing actually between 1903 and 1930, the early 1930s, I think his five volume critical edition of Nunelius was published originally in the first edition between 1903 and 1930, and then it was the second edition appeared in 1937.

因此，早在二十世纪初期，学者们就已经开始质疑这种观点——准确地说，这不是一种传统，而是一个错误的观念。

So, it was actually very early in twentieth century that this tradition, this idea, I should say, this notion, it's not a tradition, it's a false notion, was being challenged by scholars.

但我认为，这种观点的残余仍然留在文献中，导致人们不断阅读错误的文本并被其说服。

But I think shreds of the idea just remained set in the literature, so people kept reading the wrong texts and being persuaded by them.

显然，我不愿对逝者妄加批评，但我在文中曾简要提到已故的帕特里斯·吉纳尔，他长期运营着名为‘Cura’的精彩网站——‘太阳大学天文研究协会’。

Obviously, I don't want to speak ill of the dead, but I did mention briefly in my text that the late Patrice Guinard, who ran the wonderful Cura website, the Sun-universitaire pour la Rocerche astrologique on his website for many years.

他个人认为存在八宫制，但我不知道他为何会有这种看法。

He actually was of the view, the personal view, that there was an eightfold house system, but I don't know why he thought that.

我不认为他对此有任何真正的证据。

I don't believe he had any real evidence of that.

这或许只是他的直觉，觉得这个观点对他很有吸引力。

It may just be more his intuition that it was an idea that appealed to him.

但他写作的时间其实相当近。

But he was writing quite recently.

我认为这不过是那种情况：他在职业生涯早期就深深认同了这个观点，并将自己的声誉大量押注于此。

I think it's just one of those things where he became really attached to the idea really early in his career, and he staked a lot of his reputation on it.

但随着越来越多的证据浮现，比如我指出的一点：从希腊化时代流传下来的星盘成百上千，却没有一张星盘是将整个星盘划分为八个宫位的。

But then the more and more evidence came out that there there's for example, one of the things I point out is there was there's there's hundreds of charts that survive from the Hellenistic tradition, but there's not a single chart that has that divides the entire chart into just eight houses.

它总是被划分为十二宫，因此在古代占星术中根本没有八宫划分的证据。

It's always divided into 12 houses so that there's no evidence of an eightfold house division in ancient astrology, basically.

我认为他因为对此投入了太多，所以很难放弃这个理论或假说。

And I think he after sticking so much on that, he just had a hard time letting go of that as a as a theory or a hypothesis.

也许这在一定程度上是因为他作为法国作者，受到了布什·勒克莱尔著作的影响，后者写了一部巨著，直到我的书出版前，一直是希腊占星术的主要参考文献。

And maybe that was partially coming from you know, because he was a French author being influenced by Bouche Leclerc's writing, which wrote this massive tome, which until my book was the one of the primary reference texts for Hellenistic astrology.

但这本书写于1899年，当时CCAG项目刚刚启动，一群学术学者走遍欧洲，收集所有幸存的古代占星文献手稿，这个项目花了大约五十年才完成。

But it was written in 1899 when and the CCAG project was just getting going around that time where a group of academic scholars went around Europe collecting up all the surviving manuscripts of ancient astrological texts, and that took about fifty years to complete the CCAG project.

之后，像诺伊格鲍尔和范霍森等其他学者开始收集他们能找到的所有希腊星盘，整理并出版了《希腊星盘》一书，让人们得以亲眼看到所有幸存的星盘，以及其中根本没有八宫星盘的事实。

And then after that time, you have other scholars like Neugebauer and Van Hosen who go around and collected all of the Greek horoscopes they could find and then tabulated those and published it in the book Greek horoscopes that so that you could actually see what all the charts were that survived and how there was no eightfold charts.

因此，出版一本基于历史研究和学术成果的书，其中的一个棘手之处在于，它始终基于截至出版时你所掌握的理解。

So that's one of the tricky things just about, you know, publishing a book sometimes based on historical research and historical scholarship is it's always based on that it's based on your understanding up until that point in time.

但随着后续研究、新发现、新解读或其他因素的出现，这些理解随时可能发生变化。

But things can always change based on the availability of of later research or new findings or new interpretations or other things like that.

比如，在过去一个世纪，甚至过去十年，我们一直认为‘界限的分度’是希腊占星传统中发明的。

Like, even in the past century, for example, or past decade, until recently, we always assumed that the terms of the bounds were invented in the Hellenistic tradition.

但由于最近发现了一块泥板文书，我们现在知道，所谓的埃及术语体系实际上源自美索不达米亚传统，并承袭自更早的传统，这改变了过去数十年来历史学家们对此问题的论述。

But as a result of a recent discovery of a text, a cuneiform tablet, we now know that the Egyptian supposedly Egyptian concept of the terms of the bounds actually goes back to the Mesopotamian tradition and was inherited from that earlier tradition, which changes what historians have been writing about that for several decades up to this point.

因此，你必须始终意识到，事物可能会发生变化。

So you always have to be aware that things can change.

是的。

Yes.

我完全同意，克里斯。

I totally agree, Chris.

特别是当我们研究古代时期时，前希腊时期占星实践的文本证据极其稀少。

In particular, when we're dealing with the ancient period, the very paucity of evidence of pre Hellenistic astrological practices in the form of text.

这些证据如此有限，以至于历史上一直存在大量推测。

They're so limited that that I think historically has been quite a lot of guesswork involved.

你可以回溯到希腊化时期，你说的布歇·勒克莱尔的《希腊星盘》第一版出版于——抱歉，我刚才抢话了，但那本书出版于1899年，也就是说它是在那之前写成的。

You can go back to the Hellenistic, you say, Boucher Kleif's book, Greek Horoscopes, the first edition was published in Sorry, last holiday, you got a chance to speak, I'm not a bad moment, but was published in 1899, which means it was written prior to that.

我认为你提到的CCAG项目是从1903年开始分卷出版的，所以当时甚至还没开始发布。

And I think the CCAG project you mentioned was published in instalments starting in 1903, so it hadn't even begun publishing yet.

实际上，它可能始于1898年。

Actually, it might have started in 1898, actually.

我认为最早的一批内容可能是在1898年，但那是在比斯齐·福尔的工作出版前很短的时间。

I think the first, very first bit might have been in 1898, but it was very, very shortly before Biszig Fowl's work was published.

他可能早在那之前的好几年就已经写好了，早于第一期出版。

And he may already have written it years before that, before the first instalment.

在此之前，真正具有重要意义的只有《图巴尔系列》，即《图巴里安图书馆》——它致力于出版尽可能多的古希腊语和拉丁语文本，虽不特别偏向占星学，但包含了一些占星文献。

Prior to that, the only thing I think that was really going on of significance was the Tubular series, the Bibliotheque Tuberiana of critical editions of as many as possible of the ancient Greek and Latin texts without particular specific preference for astrology, but including some astrological texts.

我想，我们最早看到的是马内托的作品，于1860年出版。

We saw the first of those, I think, by Manetho published in 1860.

所以当时已经有一些学术研究在进行，但非常非常有限。

So there was some scholarship already going on, but it was very, very limited.

在这种情况下，布歇·勒科勒克匆忙地忽略了这一点并做出了错误的判断，并不令人意外。

It's not really surprising in that situation that Boucher Lecolleck hurried over that point and made the wrong judgment call.

当然。

Sure.

是的。

Sure.

对。

Yeah.

但这引出了一个重要的观点，即有时占星家可能会基于对古老文本的误解或误读而发明新的技术。

But it brings up an important point, which is that sometimes astrologers can sometimes new techniques can be invented based on a misinterpretation or a misreading of an older text.

我在占星传统中见过一些这样的例子。

And I've seen a few instances of that in the astrological tradition.

你知道，Octotropos 就是一个这样的例子，但比如龙宫占星术，也是在二十世纪中期，基于对一部新翻译文本的误读而提出的。

You know, that's an instance of that with the Octotropos, but even, like, draconic astrology, for example, is something that was proposed based on a misreading of a newly translated text in the middle of the twentieth century.

但随着更多文本被翻译出来，后续的研究从未在任何古代占星文献中发现过龙宫占星术的任何记载，这表明它实际上只是对某事物的误读，却催生了一整套技术体系——诚然，即使是误读，也可能衍生出有效的技术。

But then subsequent research, once more texts have been translated, we've never found any reference to draconic astrology in any ancient astrological texts, which shows that it was actually just a misinterpretation of something which has spawned an entire technical, you know, structure, which to be fair, like, even a misinterpretation of something could still generate potentially like a a valid technique.

因此，我们有必要保持开放态度，不能仅仅因为某事物不属于传统就完全否定它。

So we have to be open to that necessarily not fully negating something if it's not part of the tradition.

但作为占星史学家，让我深受启发的一点是，当我们接触到更多资料后，能够更谨慎地区分早期占星家究竟做了什么，而没有做什么。

But as a historian as historians of astrology, that's one of the things that's been eye opening for me is once we've gotten access to more sources, really being able to be more careful about being able to say what was what the earlier astrologers were doing versus what they weren't doing.

是的

Yeah.

我认为，对于历史学家来说，说出真相比说出对当代占星师来说流行或实用的内容更重要。

I think for historians, it's much more important to tell the truth than to say something that would be popular or practical for astrologers to use today.

这并不是历史学家或学者的动机，完全不是。

That's not what motivates historians or academics, full stop.

学术历史学家的主要动机确实是提供准确的历史叙述，我认为这给他们带来了极大的满足感。

And certainly academic historians are motivated mainly by the desire to give an accurate account of history, and I think that gives them great satisfaction.

有些人可能过于谨慎和保守，甚至直到最近才认为占星术值得研究。

And some have tended perhaps little on the the cautious side and the conservative side towards even considering astrology to be worthy of study until relatively recently.

如果他们确实研究占星术，他们希望以正确的方式进行，并提供准确的叙述。

If they do study it, then they want to do it properly and to give an accurate account.

现在回到你刚才提到的龙形占星术，我想到一个例子，正好可以写进我的书《占星术中的技术与行星发展》中，说明误读如何催生了一种全新技术——那就是我在关于莉莉丝的章节中提到的，一位在巴黎非常著名的法国占星家，他创办了自己的学院——法国占星学院。

And now going back to what you were saying a moment ago about draconic astrology, well, an example that came to me to actually mention in my book Technical and Planetary Developments in Astrology of how a misreading spawned a whole new technique is in my chapter on Lilith, where the French astrologer who was very, very popular in Paris running his own college, Astrologique de France.

他的真名是玛丽·苏吕谢，但在他的早期著作中使用笔名多姆·内罗玛，有时也写作多姆·内克罗曼，后来简化为内罗曼。

Marie Surucher was his real name, but he wrote as Dom Neroma, sometimes Dom Necroman in his first books, and he shortened it to Neroman.

他误解了关于假想行星——假想的第二颗月亮莉莉丝的英文资料，认为自己偶然看到的某些星历表实际上描述的是与原意完全不同的东西。

Well, he misread the English references to the hypothetical planet, of the hypothetical second moon Lilith, and thought that some ephemerides he came across were actually relating to something quite different from what they were meant to be.

因此，他提出了一个观点，认为莉莉丝应该是月球轨道的第二个焦点——这有时也被称为如此，因为根据他对这些星历表的解读，这似乎最合乎逻辑，但他并未真正阅读过与塞法里尔等人以及《现代占星术》杂志撰稿人之间的所有争论，也未理解这一概念的起源，即天文学家乔治·沃尔顿斯声称几个世纪以来曾多次观测到地球的第二颗月亮，正是这些说法最初让萨菲勒相信这确实存在。

So he came up with this idea that Lilith must be the second focus of lunar orbit, as it's sometimes known as, because that seemed to make the most sense to him based on his reading of these ephemeris without having actually read all the debates with people like Sepharial and the contributors to Modern Astrology magazine, and or even understanding the origins of the concept in the claims made by the astronomer George Waltonath, who claimed that there had been numerous sightings of the second moon of the earth going back centuries, which is what persuaded Sapphire something real in the first place.

但无论如何，内尔蒙并不了解这些背景，于是他提出了一个全新的莉莉丝概念，也就是如今所称的‘黑月莉莉丝’。

But anyway, Nermund didn't understand any of that, so he came up with this complete new concept for Lilith, which was is now known as Black Moon Lilith.

但实际上，这个概念在欧洲已经占据了主导地位。

But actually, that concept is the one that in Europe has come to dominate.

有许多法国作者撰写了整本书来探讨这种所谓的‘黑月莉莉丝’，而它之所以存在，仅仅是因为他误解了英文传统。

And there are numerous French authors who have written whole books on this so called Black Moon Lilith, which only came into being because misread the English tradition.

好的。

Okay.

所以这是三个不同莉莉丝之一，对吧？因为现在占星师提到的莉莉丝其实有三种不同的含义。

So that's one of the three because there's like three different things called Lilith at this point that astrologers refer to, right?

没错。

That's right.

还有一个小行星利利斯，我认为在七十年代中期小行星占星热潮之前，它几乎没有任何用途。

There's also the asteroid Lilith which had really virtually no use, I would say, prior to the asteroid use boom of the mid seventies.

然后，或许由于它那有趣的名字和所有的神话共鸣，它在此之后变得更为重要。

And then perhaps partly because of its its interesting name and all the mythological resonances, it became more important after that.

好的。

Okay.

对。

And yeah.

这很有趣。

So that's interesting.

这是另一个例子。

So that's another example of that.

而且，我在多年研究占星历史的过程中还注意到一件事：一旦有人提出了一个基本的占星概念，即使只是作为一种推测，经过若干年后，它就会成为传承下来的传统，然后占星师们开始在此基础上不断扩展和深化。

Well, and it it also leads to there's another there's just a thing I've noticed over the years of studying the history of astrology, which is that once somebody establishes a basic astrological concept, even tentatively as a speculation, after a certain number of years, that becomes part of the inherited tradition, and then astrologers start building on and elaborating on that foundation.

而在足够长的时间线上，占星师们往往会将这个基本概念发展到它所能达到的最极致程度。

And then oftentimes, the astrologers on a long enough timeline will take that basic concept and they'll elaborate it to the fullest possible extent that it that it could be.

在占星传统的演变过程中，我见过许多这种现象的不同变体。

And I've seen many different variations of this during the course of the tradition.

比如，其中一个例子是将黄道十二宫分配到宫位的非常朴素的起源，认为两者之间存在联系——这最初可能只是大致地将黄道星座与身体部位对应，比如说白羊座对应第一宫，进而延伸出第一宫与头部相关联，这种联系最初就是如此简单。

Like, one of them is the very humble origins of, like, assigning the signs of the zodiac to the houses and saying that there was a connection there, which starts off kind of basically, I think, with body parts of assigning, like, very generally the signs of the zodiac, like, let's say, the Aries to the first house and then by extension saying that it connects the first house with the head and that it sort of starts basic like that.

但最终，这种‘星座等于宫位’的等式成为了二十世纪末占星师解释所有宫位含义的核心框架，而不是更早的传统框架，后者更多地将宫位与行星的喜乐或其他类似概念联系起来？

But then eventually, that becomes the framework so that the sign equals house equation becomes really the cornerstone for late twentieth century astrologers for interpreting all of the house significations with within that framework rather than the older, let's say, traditional framework that connected them more with things like the planetary joys or other things like that?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我认为这里有两点需要说明。

I think well, there are two things to say that.

其中之一是齐普·多宾斯的占星字母表，我认为这在一定程度上是一种教学技巧，旨在简化对十二个基本‘振动’或原型的讲解，这些原型可以以多种方式表达。

One of which is that, obviously, there was Zip Dobbins' astrological alphabet, which was partly, I think, intended more as a teaching technique that it would simplify the teaching of the concepts around 12, what she felt were 12 basic sort of vibrations or archetypes that could be expressed in a number of different ways.

但毫无疑问，这是一种对占星传统的扭曲。

But it was a distortion of astrological tradition for sure.

此外，在联合心理学占星术的影响下，人们认为当我们处理一个象征系统时，天文学上的精确性几乎无关紧要。

And then we also have partly under the influence of union psychological astrology, the idea that astronomical precision is almost irrelevant when we're dealing with a symbolic system.

从七十年代开始，你发现很多书籍对行星在特定星座或对应的数字宫位时给出了冗长的心理学解释，但却完全不区分这两者。

And you find a lot of books from the seventies onwards that give lengthy psychological interpretations of planets in either a named sign or the corresponding numerical house, but without differentiating between them at all.

我认为这种体系在1970年代之前并不存在。

I don't think that existed before the 1970s as a system.

好的。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

这是因为每一代占星师都会在继承自上一代或其来源的框架基础上进行扩展，一旦有人迈出了这一步，后续每一代人就会继续将它推向更远。

Well, and it's just It's because because astrologers of each generation will elaborate on the inherited framework that they inherited from the previous generation or from their sources and that it keeps getting they keep taking it further, basically, with every generation once one step has been taken towards that idea.

因为即使某个概念最初被谨慎地、带着些许疑虑地作为推测提出来时，几十年后，这位占星师就会被确立为权威，而下一代占星师则会以更大的敬意对待他。

Because even a concept that when it's first introduced tentatively or as a speculation and with some trepidation to an astrologer's peers, You know, after a few decades, that astrologer becomes established and the next astrologers that come in treat that astrologer with more reverence.

比如，当我回溯并研究星点历史时，我发现将‘前世’和‘来世’这类概念归于鲁迪亚尔，据我所知，他是第一个在1930年代《人格占星学》一书中提出这些观点的人，但他当时非常谨慎地将其作为推测提出。

Like, I saw that happen when I went back and tried to study the history of the nodes and traced the attribution of concepts of, like, past lives and future lives to Rudhyar being, as far as I can tell, the first astrologer who to introduce that, but he does so very tentatively as, like, a speculation in his book, The Astrology of Personality in the nineteen thirties.

很有趣的是，他当时在阐述这个观点时如此谨慎，但那本书却流传了很久。

It's it's interesting like how tentative he is in sort of like outlining this, but then that book is around for a while.

到了20世纪60年代和70年代，新一代的占星师开始非常尊重鲁德哈尔，因为那时他已经是备受尊敬的占星师了，他们不仅采纳了他的观点，甚至在某种程度上比他走得更远。

And then when that new generation of astrologers came in in the 1960s and 70s, they really started treating Rudhyar with great respect because he was a very esteemed astrologer at that point and taking that idea and sort of running with it even further to some extent than he did.

当然，克里斯。

Definitely, Chris.

我确实是从罗杰的职业生涯，特别是他的写作和出版生涯开始关注的，他的职业生涯分为两个明显的阶段。

I certainly started in Roger's career, and really his book writing career, his book publication career went in two distinct phases.

他的早期作品大约从1931年开始出版，当时他系列著作《谐波占星术》的第一部分问世，如今已极为罕见。

His early works were published between around 1931 when the first part of his his series harmonic astrology appeared, which is now very rare.

一直到《生命的脉动》和《月亮：生命循环与命运》这样的书籍。

And and through to books like the pulse of life and the moon, the cycles and fortunes of life.

我认为《生命之路》大概出版于1943年，《月亮》则出版于1946年。

I think Paths of Life was probably published in 1943, and The Moon in 1946.

因此，这是他早期的作品阶段，在此期间，他为众多杂志撰写了大量文章。

So it's that early phase of his work, and during that time, he writes extensively for magazines.

他可以说是《美国占星术》和《星座》等杂志的明星撰稿人，这些杂志成功地长期聘请了他。

He's sort of star contributor to magazines like American Astrology and also Horoscope, managed to poach him for quite a long time.

他停止为《美国占星术》撰稿。

He stops writing for American astrology.

之后，他应邀请为其他多种刊物撰稿。

And he writes for various others when he's probably invited particularly to write for them.

因此，我想象中，当时有很多订阅这些杂志的人，他们本身可能并不是资深占星师，但她从小就读他的文章。

And so there's this whole background, I imagine, of people who were subscribing to those magazines, but perhaps weren't necessarily senior astrologers themselves at that time, but she grew up reading his articles.

所以我认为，当美国在20世纪60年代末开始出现占星术的新时代复兴时，除了他的早期著作之外，还有更多文化背景因素在起作用，那时美国出版的占星类新书数量突然大幅增加。

So I think there was a lot more than just his early books that was there in the cultural background when the major sort of new age revival of astrology in America happens from the late sixties onwards, where you see this sudden massive increase in the rate of new books being published in The United States on astrology.

罗杰就是其中一位早已存在影响力的先驱人物。

Well, Roger was one of the sort of influences whose work was out there already.

因此，他原有的著作如《过去性占星术》被重新出版。

So his existing books like The Astrology of Pastanity were reprinted.

这本书在1963年首次再版，也就是首次出版近三十年后。

That was reprinted for the first time in 1963, which is you know, like almost thirty years after first publication.

然后它在1970年再次再版。

Then it was repeated again in 1970.

此后就再也没有印过。

It never sort of fired a print after that.

他的书《论月亮》被修改为月相周期。

And then his book, On the Moon, was modified into the lunation cycle.

因此，他的作品经历了这次大规模的复兴。我认为，如果你纵观他整个职业生涯，从三十年代到四十年代的所有文章，他都是一位极具概念性思维的人，总是发展出新的占星视角，几乎像是在玩弄理论，探索能用它们做些什么，因为这就是他的本性。

So did see this major revival of his work, and I think if you look at his whole career, all his articles going back to the sort of thirties and forties, he was very much a conceptual thinker, where he would develop a new concept of looking at something astrologically, and it was almost as if he playing with theories and seeing what he could do with them because that was who he was.

这正是驱动他的动力。

That was what made him tick.

他并不指望所有这些想法都能持久，我该说，但其中一些确实留存了下来。

He didn't necessarily expect them all to tick to stick rather, I should say, but some of them did.

对。

Right.

好的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，他是一位非常原创且深邃的思想家。

I mean, he was a very original and deep deep thinker.

但没错，看到某些理念在占星传统中历经数十年后逐渐流行起来，确实很有趣。

But, yeah, it's just interesting seeing over the scope of a the scope of a few decades how certain ideas take off the longer that idea is around in the astrological tradition.

虽然我们主要关注了这些理念的现代实例，但古代也有类似的例子。

And while we focused on some modern instances of that, there's ancient instances of that as well.

比如，我之前提到的那个区别：有一位早期作者，可能写过一本关于宫位的原始文本，匿名署名为赫尔墨斯，提出了这12个宫位各自的意义和一套基本象征，例如将死亡归于第七宫。

Like, for example, that distinction I mentioned earlier where you had this first author that probably like, I think there was this original early text on the houses that somebody wrote anonymously and attributed to Hermes where it put forward this concept of these are what I think think these 12 houses mean and and a basic set of significations and, you know, assigning death, for example, to the seventh house.

但后来又有一位占星家出现，他也匿名撰写了一部文本，并将其归于传奇人物阿斯克勒庇俄斯。

But then you have this later astrologer that comes along who also writes a text anonymously and attributes it to a legendary figure, Asclepius.

他基于自己的内在逻辑，认为应该在原有的12宫体系中增加一些象征意义，比如将兄弟姐妹归入第三宫，父母归入第四宫，子女归入第五宫，并将死亡从第七宫移至第八宫。

And he says, I think based on his own internal rationale, we should add some significations to this framework of 12 houses and that we should say that siblings is in the third house and parents in the fourth and children in the fifth and death should be moved from the seventh to the eighth.

然后，这套体系的某些部分逐渐被采纳，并最终取代了早期的版本，成为一种改良后的体系。

And then pieces of that system sort of stuck and, like, eventually took off as a modification of the earlier one.

所以，在占星传统的不同时期，都会因为占星师有意或无意的创新而发生变化。

So and then, you know, at at different points during the tradition, have changes that happen due to either astrologers deliberately innovating or accidentally innovating.

比如，关于母亲被分配到第十宫，有人争论这是否是误读了托勒密的论述，他谈到的是与幸运点相关的中天星座之类的内容。

Like, there's a debate about whether the mother, I think, being assigned to the tenth house was a result of a misreading of Ptolemy, for example, and what he says about looking at, like, the culminating sign relative to the Lot of Fortune or something like that.

我记不清所有细节了，但类似这样的情况太多了。

I forget all the details, but there there's so many things like that.

回到你和你图书馆工作的重要性，要理清这些，唯一的方法就是能够接触到原始文本，逐字阅读并进行比较。

And to bring this full circle to you and the importance of your work in your library, the only way you can sort through this is by actually having access to the original texts and reading through them and comparing them.

通过这一过程，才能真正开始重建占星术的实际历史，了解它在不同占星师及其教材中的表现，就像你刚才提到的鲁德亚德那样，还能研究一位占星师从职业生涯早期到后期思想的演变，这不仅基于他们的书籍，还包括他们的文章、论文和其他相关材料。

And through that process, can actually start to reconstruct what the actual history of astrology was and what that looks like across different astrologers and their textbooks, but also as in the case of Rudyard that you're just talking about, what that looks like for a single astrologer to be able to study the evolution of their thinking from early in their career to later in their career based on not just their books, but also their articles and essays and other things like that.

是的。

Yeah.

不。

No.

我完全同意，克里斯。

I totally agree, Chris.

我本来想说，关于你刚才提到的这一点——观念之所以流行，是因为随着时间推移，除了传统内部的演变，人们也会受到特定时期某些书籍受欢迎程度的显著影响。

And I was gonna say, on the point you were making just a little bit before that about how ideas take off because other people, after a while, except in this part of their tradition, I think can also be influenced significantly by how popular people's books are at a particular time.

你可能会遇到某人提出了完全新颖的想法，但由于太多人购买了相关书籍，其中一些人后来成为职业占星师，这就形成了规模效应，使这些新观念得以延续。

You may end up with somebody who's got some completely novel ideas, but because so many people buy the books on that, and then some of them go on to become professional astrologists themselves, that then creates critical mass and perpetuates those new ideas.

当然，也有人积极教授占星学，即使到现在依然如此。

And there are also people, of course, who actively teach astrology, and who still do even now.

而且还有蓬勃发展的占星学校，以及个体教师。

And you know, thriving schools as well as individual teachers.

我认为这可能会对这些特定学校的走向产生不成比例的影响。

And I think that can create a disproportionate influence in the direction of those particular schools.

当然，我们并不是在歧视，也不是说某种技术不该被实践，仅仅因为它是个现代创新，因为你甚至可以考虑到传统占星运动本身。

Now, obviously, it isn't we're not discriminating, we're not saying here that one or another technique shouldn't be practiced because it's just a modern innovation, because you could even factor in the traditional astrology movement.

举两个彼此不同的例子来说吧。

Mean, on the one hand, just take two examples that are kind of different from each other.

近年来，进化占星学广泛传播，我认为这得益于杰夫·格林的著作，随后史蒂芬·福里斯特也非常受欢迎地推广了类似但不完全相同的方法。

We have seen evolutionary astrology proliferate in recent decades, because I think it's been very, very popular, starting probably with the books of Geoff Green, and then we've had Stephen Forrest's extremely popular inferential teaching of similar, though not identical methods too.

这导致了目前美国大约有30%到40%的占星师在使用进化占星方法。

That has created a situation where we now have possibly 30 to 40% of American astrologers are using evolutionary methods.

它现在已经是一种标准实践。

It's now one of the standard practices.

我没有精确的数据，但我确实看到过一些调查，显示这一比例相比二十五年前已经大幅增长。

I don't have precise figures for that, but certainly I've seen surveys where it has increased very, very much on where it was even twenty five years ago.

另一方面，传统占星的复兴运动也强劲兴起，以至于我们现在有了相当多专门从事传统占星的从业者，他们几乎只实践这一派方法，人数远超项目‘远见’启动之前，以及奥利维亚·巴克莱在1980年代教学之前的情况。

And then on the other hand, we've seen the traditional astrology revival movement take off pretty strongly too, to the point that we now have quite a lot of specialists in traditional practice who only really practiced that, and far more than there would have have been prior to, certainly prior to Project Hindsight and prior to Olivia Barclay's teaching in the 1980s.

对。

Right.

是的，完全正确。

Yeah, absolutely.

所以不同时期不同教师、占星组织或出版物的影响，某些文本在不同语言中的翻译可得性，有时也会对这些发展产生影响。

So the influence of different teachers, the influence of different astrological organizations or publications at different points in time, the availability of translations of certain texts in different languages and how that can influence things sometimes.

比如，我最近在Reddit上看到一个帖子，问为什么安德烈·巴博——这位二十世纪至二十一世纪初极具影响力、直到不久前才去世的法国占星师——在英语世界的影响没有更大。

Like, I saw a post recently on Reddit asking if Andre why Andre Barbeau, who's such a a famous and influential French astrologer in the twentieth and early twenty first century until he died not that long ago, why he wasn't more influential in the English speaking world.

我在想这个问题，我的一部分答案是，他的许多著作还没有从法语翻译成英语。

And I was thinking about it, and and part of my answer was that not a lot of his texts have been translated from French into English.

因此，尽管他在整个二十世纪对世俗占星学做出了非常高水平的工作，但他的著作影响力却受到了限制。

And so that really limit has limited the influence of his text, even though he's done very high level work on mundane astrology for much of the twentieth century.

是的，我完全同意你的看法。

Yeah, I absolutely agree with your assessment there.

这实际上与我们之前讨论的英美占星师之间的跨大西洋影响有很大不同。

And that is actually quite distinction from what we were talking about earlier with the transatlantic influence between British and American astrologists.

他们至少说的是同一种语言。

They did at least speak the same language.

所以，即使在通信有限的情况下，甚至在电话和电力出现之前，英国占星师仍然影响着美国占星师，反之亦然。

So even when you had limited communications, even before the telephone, before electricity, you still had British astrologers influencing American astrologers and vice versa.

我在我的书里提到过，哈伦·巴特勒影响了艾伦·利奥。

We had Huron Butler influencing Alan Leo, is one of the things I point out in my book.

你知道，利奥并不像人们认为的那样发明了那么多理论。

You know, Leo didn't invent half the ideas he's credited with.

他实际上是个倾听者。

He was actually a listener.

他融入了一个广泛的思想社群。

He tapped into a wide community of thought.

他在某种程度上很像一位国王，喜欢身边围绕着顾问，他会倾听所有人，让他们自由发挥，做出自己的贡献。

He was quite Leonine in the sense of almost being like kind of a king who liked to keep advisors around him, and he would listen to all of them and let them do their thing and make their own contributions.

他也会允许一些他们的想法影响他自己的写作。

And he would allow some of their ideas to influence what he wrote himself.

对于其他想法，他只是直接发表，却很少加以评论。

Others he would just publish, but without particularly commenting on them.

就你提到的巴伯的例子，是的，完全正确。

I put it on the example you mentioned with Barber, yes, absolutely.

我认为他写了三十多本书，和诺尔·蒂尔德差不多。

He has, I think, written about 30 plus books, about as many as Noel Tilde did.

但由于很少有英语国家的占星师能读懂法语，而且他的著作又没有被翻译，大部分情况下，我认为只有几本很晚近的作品由占星协会作为特别项目翻译出版，我怀疑这是否真的具有商业价值。

But because very few English speaking astrologers can read French, and because they weren't translated, and for the most part, I think a couple of the very late ones were translated published by the Astrological Association as a special project, which I doubt was really commercial.

我认为这更多是出于热爱。

I think that was more a labor of love.

但他绝大多数作品都未出版，二十世纪许多其他法语和德语的欧洲大陆占星师也是如此。

But the vast majority of his work hasn't been published, and the same is true for many other continental European astrologists of the twentieth century, both French speaking and German speaking.

我之前提到过，他在三四十年代的法国影响巨大。

I mentioned earlier, and he was huge in France in the thirties and forties.

他创办了一份月刊，名为《天空之下》，我认为一直出到第80期才在他去世后停刊。

He had this monthly magazine, meaning under the sky, and that ran for, I think it got up to issue number 80 before he died.

他的一些追随者曾试图继续出版，但他还撰写了十几本以上的玄学著作，其中包括这部伟大的作品《理性占星学论》，该书于1943年出版，篇幅长达数百页，几乎如对开本大小，采用双栏排版。

And some of his followers tried to keep going after that, but he also wrote a dozen or more esoteric books, including this great work, Treaty d'Astrology Racional, a feat is on rational astrology, published in 1943, which is kind of several 100 pages long and almost a folio sized book with dual columns.

这本书非常厚重。

It's huge.

这些著作，英语世界的占星师们也根本不知道。

And these things, English speaking as well just don't know about it.

这纯粹是语言障碍造成的。

It's the language barrier, pure and simple.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

所以这是能够塑造占星传统的一个有趣因素。

So that's an interesting thing that can shape the astrological tradition.

偶尔，当某部作品的单一译本因某种原因传入并产生巨大影响时。

Occasionally when a singular translation of something does make it through and is wildly influential for some reason.

我知道在17世纪，有一部关于宫位的法语占星文本被翻译成英文。

I know in the seventeenth century, there was a translation of like a French astrological text on the houses.

也许它只是文艺复兴时期某部作品的节选，比如《十二宫秘义》。

Maybe it was part of it was like an excerpt from Renaissance or something like that, the cabal of the 12 houses.

是的。

Yes.

我认为那可能是乔治·惠顿翻译的，他是17世纪一位相当知名但相对次要的英国人，我认为他翻译了那部作品并将其出版。

I think that was something that probably George Wharton translated, one of the quite well known but relatively minor seventeenth century English I think he translated that and had it published.

那只是穆兰的一部短篇作品，我认为在1970年代之前，除了这部之外，穆兰的其他作品都没有被翻译成英文。

And that was just a short work by Mourin, and I don't think any of Mourin's other work was translated into English before the 1970s apart from that.

所以，这等待了非常非常长的时间。

So, it was a very, very long time waiting.

在二十世纪初，有一些零散的部分被研究过。

There were bits and pieces that were worked on at the very start of the twentieth century.

显然，那是亨利·塞尔瓦，他的真名我觉得是阿尔瑟·弗莱斯之类的。

Obviously, was Henri Selva, and his real name I think was Vless, Arthur Vless or something like that.

他把名字倒着拼写，给自己起了个有趣的笔名。

He spelt his name backwards to give himself a funny pseudonym.

但他写了些什么，据莫兰说，这部作品大约在1902年出版，算是第21本书。

But he wrote and or something like that according to Moran, which was published around 1902 and was sort of of book 21.

但此外，还有一份手稿流传了多年，我最终买到了第22到24卷的法语译本。

But also, there was this manuscript kicking around for many years, which I finally bought in the end of the translation of books 22 to 24 into French.

这绝对非常有趣，因为那份手稿的日期大约在1902年或1903年。

And that's absolutely fascinating because that was dated around 1902 or 1903.