水瓶座在占星学中的含义与特质

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得是的。

I think so.

这是一部极其精致的水瓶座电影，我强烈推荐给任何想理解水瓶座的人。

It's such an exquisite Aquarius movie that I highly recommend to anyone who's trying to understand the sign.

我的意思是，只要看这部电影，然后你就会明白，哦，原来如此。

Like, just watch the movie, and then it's like, oh, okay.

我们就像跨维度的变形者，同时在各个领域之间穿梭，以重新平衡人类及所有生物的更宏大体验。

We're, like, you know, interdimensional shape shifters that are going realm to realm simultaneously to rebalance, the greater experience of humanity and all beings everywhere.

所以，这是解释它的一个好方法。

So that's a good way to explain it.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

For sure.

我喜欢这个时刻，或者这个时间维度。

I like this this time or this temporal component.

我觉得这是一个非常好的观点。

I think that's a really good point.

我认为我们在这里正触及到一个非常重要的点，即摩羯座和水瓶座都是由土星主宰的星座，而土星传统上与时间密切相关。

I think we're getting on to something really important here with both Capricorn and Aquarius as Saturn ruled signs and Saturn being the primary planet traditionally associated with time.

我喜欢这种观点：摩羯座强调更高效地工作，因为时间是我们拥有的全部，时间最终是最宝贵的货币，因为我们每个人拥有的时间都是有限的。

And I like this notion that it's like Capricorn would be all about doing work more efficiently and because time is all we have, time is ultimately the most important currency because each of us has a finite amount of time at our disposal.

所以，当你为别人工作时，本质上你是在放弃自己的一小部分时间，这意味着你正在把生命中的一小部分给予他人。

So it's like ultimately one of the things it comes down to anytime you're doing work for somebody is you're giving up a small slice of your time, which ultimately means you're giving up a small slice of your life that you're giving to somebody.

所以你实际上是在给予他们你的时间，而时间是最珍贵的，这一点我们有时并不会意识到，尤其是当你年轻的时候。

So you're really giving them your time and time is the most precious thing, which sometimes we don't think about especially when you're young.

但随着年龄增长，你会越来越意识到时间的重要性与价值。

But it's like the older you get, the more and more you realize how important time is and how valuable it is.

尤其是在人生命即将结束时，他们会开始回顾过去，我认为那时会更深刻地体会到这一点，因为只有当你真正失去某样东西，或意识到它的稀缺时，它才会变得更重要。

And especially towards the end of a person's life, they start thinking back and I think even get a greater sense of that because it's only once you really have a lack of something or you start to realize the scarcity of something that it becomes more important.

摩羯座肯定会专注于更高效地做事，寻找通过更保守的方式、节约能量或以不同方式节省时间的方法，这正是我们上一期节目中提到的摩羯座关键词之一：节约。

Capricorn then would definitely want to focus on doing things more efficiently and finding ways that you could cut down time just by being more conservative or conserving your energy or conserving your time in different ways, which was one of our keywords in the last episode for Capricorn was conservation.

但水瓶座则更倾向于，或者你可以发明一种东西，让你做这件事的速度或效率提高两倍。

But Aquarius, think would be more like, Or you could just invent this thing that will help you do this twice as fast or twice as efficiently.

所以这就像是利用科技来放大效率，从而为自己争取更多时间，或者减少完成某件事所需的时间。

So it's like using a piece of technology to leverage things in order to give yourself more time or in order to take less time to do something.

即使水瓶座最终花费了不成比例的大量时间——可能是好几倍的时间——去发明这个东西，而不是直接采用折中方案或选择其他任务。

Even if the Aquarius ends up spending an inordinate amount of time, multiple factors more time inventing the thing than if they just did the workaround or chose a different task instead.

我不禁想，这是否部分源于他们对‘完美未来’的固执执着，希望它能在此时此刻实现，即使我本人得不到好处，至少它能被创造出来，然后以正确的方式被实现。

And I wonder if part of that is that fixed fixedness around making that perfect future that could be here now manifest and, like, you know, even if I don't benefit from it, at least then it comes into being and then it can be done the right way.

也许这就是其中的原因。

Maybe there's something like that.

是的，完全正确。

Yeah, totally.

而对科技的热爱，或者像疯狂科学家这样的原型，有时我觉得这就是水瓶座的典型形象。

And the love of technology or like the mad scientist archetype is kind of like an Aquarius archetype I think of sometimes.

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

而且这种想法还希望完全跳过过程，这虽然在时间上更高效，但实际体验中往往并不奏效。

And that sense of also just wanting to skip the process altogether, which is an efficient use of time, but then doesn't often actually work in the experience of it.

毕竟，我们仍然需要时间和空间来达成目标。

Like, we still need the use of time and space in order to arrive at things.

我认为水瓶座更倾向于直接把自己提升到目标的地平线上，而不是真正经历抵达过程中的旅程。

And, I think Aquarius would prefer to just kind of, like, pick ourselves up and place us on the horizon line of where we're going rather than actually having the journey or the process of getting there.

所以从长远来看，这可能会更浪费时间，但其初衷是为了创造工具和方式，以最高效地利用时间。

So in the long run, it can be less efficient with time, but in the interest of creating tools and modalities that help us use time in the most efficient way.

某种意义上，是将关于时间的意识形态具体化，让效率本身成为一种强制性的要求之类的。

Something about, like, concretizing the ideology with respect to time, concretizing the efficiency being, like, the imperative there or something.

天哪。

Oh my god.

是的。

Yeah.

这让我想起多年前上早期占星课时听到的我最喜欢的一个水瓶座意象。

That reminds me of one of my favorite Aquarian images that I ever heard of with someone in a an like an early astrology class that I was taking many years ago.

当时我们正在学习水瓶座。

And we were learning about Aquarius.

他们就说：水瓶座是不是像一块漂浮在天空中的混凝土块？

And they were like, so is Aquarius like a concrete block floating in the sky?

这简直是最完美的描述了。

Just seemed like the most perfect description.

你提到‘具体化’，这让我立刻想到那个画面，因为水瓶座的理想或做事方式确实可能非常固定或僵化。

And so you said concretizing, and it really made me think of that, because it can be so, fixed or rigid in its own ideals or way of doing something.

但同时，它又像是漂浮在天空中，脱离了大地和现实。

But then there's this notion that it's floating in the sky, like, it's also ungrounded from the earth and from reality.

完全正确。

Totally.

完全正确。

Totally.

我刚刚写了一篇关于水瓶座的文章。

I just wrote, like, a a piece about Aquarius.

它就像是寂静世纪的冰霜宫殿之类的。

It's like the the icy cloud palace of of of the silent century or something like that.

你知道的。

You know?

土星非常安静，而我们的世纪位于太阳系的边缘，但那种冰冷感很特别。

Saturn's very quiet and our century at the the edge of the solar system, but something about the iciness.

我知道你是多伦多的。

Like, I know you're you're Toronto based.

我不确定你们那里是否冷到能建冰酒店，但我曾在费尔班克斯待过一段时间，去过一个墙壁完全是冰做的空间。

I don't know if it gets quite cold enough to have ice hotels where you are, but I spent some time in Fairbanks and, like, having been to inside a space that is literally like the walls were made of ice.

是的，就是这样。

Like, yes.

这就是水瓶座的样子。

That is what Aquarius is like.

冰宫殿，但同时也充满混凝土。

Ice palace, but also concrete.

哦，太棒了。

Oh, that's amazing.

对。

Yeah.

冰宫殿，或者像超人的孤独水晶堡垒。

An ice palace or, like, Superman's crystal fortress of solitude.

没错。

Yes.

现在暴露我的宅属性了。

Betraying my nerdiness right now.

但是是的。

But Yes.

对我来说，这个孤独的水晶堡垒非常像水瓶座。

The crystal fortress of solitude is so Aquarian to me.

它就像是一个位于另一个维度的孤独之地，超人飞到那里，通过他的治愈水晶恢复能量。

It's like this place of aloneness in another realm that Superman flies to and gets recharged by his healing crystals.

我简直不敢相信这竟然出自漫画。

Like, I can't believe that was in a comic book.

太棒了。

It's amazing.

是的。

Yeah.

然后当他变成克拉克·肯特时，在他的力量堡垒里，我不知道他是否还能做克拉克。

And then when he becomes, like, when he's Clark Kent in his force fortress of solitude don't know if he can be Clark.

不行。

No.

那就是他在另一边的时候。

That's when he's on the other side.

我脑子里突然冒出一个想法，关于水瓶座和狮子座之间的对立。

Something in my head just tried to, like, burst forth about the opposition between Aquarius and Leo.

当他在外面被所有人看见时，他就像那个英雄般的狮子座，一个被众人推崇的英雄个体。

And, like, Superman when he's out there being seen by everybody is, like, the heroic Leo, the heroic individual that everyone's holding up there.

但私下里，实际上那是我配偶。

But then, like, behind the scenes, it's actually the I Spouse.

不。

No.

这仍然说得通。

That still makes sense.

因为当他作为克拉克·肯特时，他是在参与这个世界，并且他属于这里。

Because when he's Clark Kent, he's, like, participating in the world, and he belongs.

在他的克拉克·肯特身份中，也有一种狮子座的联结感。

And there's that sense of, like, Leo connection in his Clark Kent identity.

而作为超人，他超越了人类。

And then as Superman, he's like beyond human.

原型身份与小写的个人身份之间的对比，或者类似的东西。

Archetypal identity versus like lowercase person identity or something like that.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这让我想到了与这个星座相关的投射概念。

And it makes me think of like, the notions of projection that are associated with the sign as well.

比如，大多数超级英雄都是我们投射某种东西、我们的欲望或对某人更完美、超越普通人类经验的需求的对象。

Like, most superheroes are these characters that we project something onto or our desire or need for someone to be more perfect or beyond regular colloquial human experience.

我认为水瓶座能够投射出不同的东西，这也是这个星座创新性的来源之一，但同时，当人们无法允许他人或自己成为有血有肉的人时，水瓶座也会在投射上遇到困难。

And I think that Aquarius is able to project something different, which is part of where the innovativeness of the sign comes from, but also that it's a sign that can struggle with projection when we are not able to, like, others or ourselves to be human.

而正是在这里，事物被推向了极其极端、近乎非人的理想或期望。

And that's where things can be held to these really, really extreme almost inhuman ideals or expectations.

是的。

Yeah.

这就是为什么你会遇到那种爱人类却不爱具体个人的水瓶座。

That's where you get the the Aquarius who loves people but not persons.

那种刻板印象。

That that trope.

是的。

Yeah.

人的概念很棒。

The idea of a person is great.

人群的概念很棒，但当你深入细节，尤其是当水瓶座固守在那种僵化的意识形态视角中时，就会觉得这种方式绝对正确。

The idea of people is fantastic, but then when you get into the nitty gritty, particularly if if if Aquarius is stuck in that really rigid ideological perspective, well, this way is totally right.

如果你用自己的标准去评判每一个人，那就很容易在别人身上看到根本不存在的东西。

And if you judge every single person by your own your own perspective, then it can become really easy to see things in people that aren't really there.

或者发展出一种本应适用于广大人群的哲学。

Or like developing a philosophy that's supposed to be applicable to like large groups of people.

但当真正落实到一对一的互动时，就会出现问题。

But then when it comes to actually one on one relating like that, running into an issue there.

嗯嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

比如在理论上，康德的绝对命令认为，你应该制定一条可以永远遵守并适用于所有人的规则，那样就很好。

Like on paper, the idea of Kant's categorical imperative that you should be able to have a rule that you would do all the time and and apply it to everybody, and then that would be great.

但在实践中，你可以列出一大堆情况，在这些情境或背景下，这些规则都会以各种方式失效，这让我想起了你，克里斯，提到的土星的时间特性。

But in practice, there's you could come up with just a a very long list of all the ways in which any of those rules can kinda fall apart in in certain circumstances or context, which makes me think about what you said, Chris, about Saturn's the temporal qualities of Saturn.

土星是掌管时间的行星。

That Saturn is the planet that deals in time.

土星唯一接受的货币是时间。

The only currency Saturn accepts is time.

因此，你可以深入思考土星，思考土星式的事物，体验土星式的情境，但唯有通过时间，你才能真正学会土星的语言，开始理解时间的本质。

And so you can learn a lot about Saturn and you can think a lot about Saturnian things and you can have Saturnian like experiences, but only through time can you actually learn Saturn's language or start to get an understanding of what time is.

就像你年轻的时候会问，爱是什么？

Kind of like the way that, you know, when you're young and you ask, what is love?

我怎么知道我是不是真的爱上了？

How do I know if I'm in love?

所有的成年人都说：哦，相信我，你会知道的。

And all the adults are like, oh, trust me, you'll know.

如果真的发生了，你不会感到困惑。

You won't be confused if it happens.

时间也差不多是这样。

Time is kind of like that too.

也许这正是土星回归以及越过土星回归后那个初始的六分相时发生的事情——你开始获得足够的视角，去理解时间本身究竟是什么。

And maybe that's part of like what happens with the Saturn return and getting past that opening sextile of the Saturn after the Saturn return that you start to get enough perspective of what time is it is in and of itself.

然后你会产生摩羯座那种想要尽可能多地保存时间的倾向，因为时间如此珍贵；或者水瓶座那种紧迫感和进步性，源于意识到未来几乎就在眼前。

And then you get that Capricorn orientation towards trying to save as much of it as possible because it is so precious or the Aquarian, like, urgency and progressiveness that comes from seeing that the future is almost now.

时间总是迫在眉睫，同时也延伸至许多代人，七代或更多。

It is always imminent and also that it extends many generations, seven generations or more.

因此，我们现在所做的事情，一旦将它们的影响延伸到未来，其效果就会被放大。

And so the things we do now have have like a get force multiplied when we put when we extend their impact into the future.

我希望这说得通。

I hope that makes sense.

是的。

Yeah.

这很有道理，因为它让我想起我们在上一期节目中简短讨论过的一个观点。

That makes a lot of sense because it brings up something I think that's really relevant here that we talked about briefly on the last episode.

人类总是有这种倾向，我想我最早是从我的第一位占星历史老师尼古拉斯·坎皮恩那里了解到这一点的，他做了大量关于历史周期的研究，以及占星师们在历史上如何看待这些周期，尤其是像水瓶座时代这样的概念，而这在我看来与此处相关。

Humans always have this tendency and I think I first learned this from my first history of astrology teacher Nicholas Campion where he did a lot of work on historical cycles and how they were viewed by astrologers through history and especially things like the age of Aquarius actually which I guess is relevant here.

他说，人类总是要么理想化过去，比如理想化某个遥远的过去时期——我现在想想，这更像是摩羯座的特质，作为夜行星座，摩羯座有一种回顾的倾向，或一种近乎保守的品质：‘过去的日子真好啊，要是能回到那个时代、回到我成长的年代就好了’，即使实际上过去并没有我们记忆中那么美好。

And he said that humans are always either idealizing the past, like idealizing some distant remote period in the past, which I think now that I think about it is more of a Capricornian thing as a nocturnal sign, like a looking back quality with Capricorn or almost a more conservative quality of like, Things were great back in the day, if only we could get back there or to that period where I grew up and everything was You have this idealized version of the past even though things were never as great in the past as they sometimes seem.

但另一方面，人类有时也会理想化未来，这是一种不聚焦于当下、而是聚焦于未来会多么美好的时间视角：科技将解决一切问题，疾病和苦难都将变得轻而易举，在遥远的未来，一切都会变得更好。

But then the other part of that is that humans sometimes have this quality then of idealizing the future, which is another temporal component, another temporal perspective that's not focused on the here and now, but instead focusing on how great things are going to be in the future, how technology is going to fix everything and diseases and hardships and all these other things will be so much easier at some remote point in the future.

占星师们有时就会这样想：总有一天占星学会被证明是正确的，每个人都会接受占星学，然后生活在一个乌托邦里，人们从小学习占星学，一切都完美无缺，但他们很少关注未来可能存在的负面因素，或者忽视一个事实：随着时间推移，有些事情变好了，有些事情变糟了，但生活本质上依然如故。

Astrologers Or for example sometimes will think at some point astrology will be proved and everybody will just accept astrology and then will live in this utopia where people grow up learning astrology and everything is great and they don't really focus on any potential downsides that might happen in the future or the fact that with the passage of time, it's like some things get better and some things get worse, but life still at its course sometimes is very similar.

所以我认为这里可能正在发生的是，摩羯座与水瓶座之间的一个有趣对比：摩羯座更倾向于理想化过去，而水瓶座则更倾向于理想化未来。

So I think that might be something going on here that might be another interesting contrast between Capricorn versus Aquarius is the idealization of the past maybe more with Capricorn versus the idealization of the future more with with Aquarius.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得这太对了。

I think that's so true.

有一种观点认为，未来总能比当下更好。

And there's this idea that the future can always be better than the present moment.

比如，我们无法掌控历史，或许只能对当下有一些控制。

Like, we have no control over history, and we have maybe some control over the present moment.

但我认为，水瓶座对未来的理想化，部分源于一种投射：未来可能比现在更美好、更完美或更完整。

But I think part of the idealization of the future that happens with Aquarius is that sense of projection that the future can be better or more perfect or more complete in some way than what's happening right now.

而这也可能是这个星座身上某些完美主义与拖延特质的来源。

And that is perhaps also where some of, like, the perfectionism slash procrastination aspects of the sign can come in.

因为如果事情尚未准备好变得完美，或者尚未达到那种理想化状态，我们就会选择推迟，等到以后再去做。

Because if things are not ready to be perfect yet or things are not ready to become this idealized state, then maybe we'll wait till later to actually get to them.

是的。

Yeah.

或者说，我们可以朝着那个目标努力，我们实际上可以控制未来，就像时间旅行者一样，通过在当下采取行动，就能掌控并塑造未来，让它变得更好。

Or that we can work towards that that we can actually control as if we're like time travelers by doing things in the present, can control and manipulate the future and make it better.

只要我们专注于某个目标并为之努力，无论是开发一项能彻底改变未来子孙后代生活的技术，还是推广一种意识形态。

If we simply focus and work towards something, whether it's a technology that'll change everything for our descendants in the future or whether it's an ideology.

我现在正在翻阅一些文件，发现很多正在崭露头角的人，特别是一些水星在水瓶座的人，他们身上确实有一种前瞻性的思维特质。

I'm looking through some of my files right now and there's a real forward thinking component to a lot of the people that are coming up, some of the Mercury in Aquarius people.

举个例子，史蒂夫·乔布斯是处女座上升，水星在宝瓶座第六宫结束逆行后转为顺行。

Like for example, Steve Jobs had Virgo rising and Mercury stationary direct coming off of a retrograde in Aquarius in the sixth whole sign house.

他在技术方面具有非常前瞻性的思维模式。

And he had just like a very forward thinking mindset in terms of technology.

他是苹果公司的创始人，并早在最初就预见到每个人都会拥有个人电脑的时代。

He was the founder of Apple Computers and was able to see this period initially where everybody would have a personal computer.

他不仅在20世纪70或80年代就预见了那个未来，而且还帮助创造了它，帮助创造了如今人人都有电脑的现实，或者说，他预见到了音乐和移动设备（如MP3播放器）的发展方向。

And he both saw that in the future back in the 1970s or 1980s, but then also helped to create that, helped to create the reality where nowadays everybody has a computer or he could see, you know, where things were headed with music and with, mobile like mp3 players.

于是他创造了iPod，然后突然间，成千上万的人拥有了iPod，这彻底改变了音乐产业等领域的格局，并推动了从人们在唱片店购买CD到如今大家通过iTunes商店或其他类似平台在线购买mp3的转变，甚至最终包括iPhone的诞生——他的公司率先创造了真正的智能手机，引领了整个变革浪潮。

And so he created the iPod and then all of a sudden like tons of people have an iPod and it completely transforms things like the music industry and helps to shift to, from like people buying CDs in record stores to everybody buying, you know, mp3s now online through the iTunes store or other things like that or eventually even the iPhone and his company being the first to create a real smartphone and ushering in that whole transformation.

我认为，这种前瞻性思维，尤其是在技术领域，有时可以成为一个重要因素。

That forward thinking component to especially technology can sometimes be a major factor I think.

我们来看看，其他类似的人。

Let's see, other people like that.

我的意思是，我知道阿洛伊·特伦德尔就是一个很好的例子，他是一位这样的占星家，也是Astrodienst或astro.com的创始人。

I mean, I know Alois Trendel is actually really good as an example of an astrologer like that who was the founder of Astrodienst or astro.com.

他上升星座是金牛座，金星、木星、水星都在水瓶座，位于第十整宫。

He has Taurus rising with Venus, Jupiter, Mercury up in Aquarius in the tenth whole sign house.

而且，他又是最早创建网站、开始用计算机生成占星报告、并建立网站让人们免费获取出生星盘计算的人之一。

And again, just like he was one of the first people to create a website and to start doing computerized reports for astrology and to create a website where you could go and get your birth chart calculated for free.

在1990年代，这彻底改变了游戏规则，通过让占星师更容易获得可靠且准确的星盘计算，从而改变了占星社群，在技术方面展现了前瞻性思维，做了当时非同寻常的事情——做一些并非人人都在做的事，有时甚至逆流而行，或者通过创新让自己脱颖而出。

And in the 1990s, that was just a game changer in terms of transforming the astrological community by making it easier for astrologers to get access to reliable and accurate chart calculations and just different things like that in terms of being forward thinking in terms of technology and doing things which at the time are out of the ordinary by doing something that not everybody else is doing and sometimes going against the grain or doing something that makes you stand out by being innovative.

但最终，这些创新一旦被采纳，就会变得司空见惯，以至于有时回想起来，很难看出这些前瞻者当初在他们的时代是多么与众不同，有时甚至有点古怪，因为最终他们的独特性在文化中被吸收，当它被认为有用或具有某种优势时，最终会变得普遍。因此，在狮子座和水瓶座之间，在常态与非常态之间，存在着一种近乎循环的过程，而非常态的事物往往在足够长的时间后，会旋转到事物的中心并成为新的常态。

But then eventually, those innovations, once they get adopted, they become commonplace so that sometimes in retrospect, it's hard to see how these forward thinkers were actually kind of different or sometimes kind of weird initially in their time because eventually their uniqueness gets sort of subsumed by the culture eventually when it's seen to be useful or there's something advantageous about it and it becomes eventually commonplace so that there's this almost cyclical process between Leo and Aquarius and what is the norm versus what is outside of that, but then what is outside of that oftentimes rotating into the center of things and becoming the norm after a long enough period of time.

当然。

Absolutely.

我

I

我觉得这结合了太阳所处星座的不利位置以及该星座的固定性——某些事物可能始于与主流规范相悖的状态。

feel like that's a combination of like the detriment of the sign to the Sun and then the fixity of the sign is that something may be seated or may start in detriment to, like, the larger accepted norm.

但该星座的固定性使其具备了坚持到底的韧性，直到这一理念真正植入更广泛的社会集体中。

But then the fixity of the sign allows it to have the persistence to see something through until it's actually been seeded in the larger collective.

这让我想到，水瓶座季节也包含了圣烛节，这是冬至与春分之间的中点。

And it makes me think about how Aquarius season also contains imbulk, which is the midway point between the winter solstice and the spring equinox.

圣烛节是一个播种的时刻，那些在冬季播下的种子开始萌动、孕育，逐渐朝着春分时节、白羊座季节来临时的蓬勃生命发展。

And Imbolc is this time of seeding something where the seeds that have been planted through the winter start to quicken or start to, become conceived or, like, move towards the life that's going to burst forth when we get to the spring equinox and it's Aries season.

因此，这里有一种理念：播种一些有争议的、非主流的或创新的事物，然后坚持下去，保持韧性，直到这种种子被更多人接受或广泛传播。

And so there's this idea of maybe seeding or planting something that is controversial or outside or innovative, but then being able to stick with it and be persistent until that seed becomes more accepted or more widespread.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为特别是在商业领域，如果你想处于前沿或领先地位，就必须跳出常规。

I think something about particularly in business, if you're gonna be like, to be on the cutting edge or just ahead of it, then you have to be outside of the norm.

如果每个人都在做同样的事，你就无法在那个领域找到创新、新颖和具有未来感的东西。

If everybody's doing it, you're not finding something innovative and and new and futuristic in that space.

所以，像史蒂夫·乔布斯那样的人在从事漫长的土星式创造工作时，会如此远离常规，这也就说得通了。

And so it makes sense that, you know, Steve Jobs and folks like that would be operating so far afield while they're doing the long Saturnian work of creating the thing.

但如果他们做得对，技术就能为你节省大量时间，或者让你感觉从时间中获得了更多价值，那么大家当然都会采用它，因为这是我们所有人共同的一点：认识到我的时间终将结束。

But if they've done their job correctly, then the technology saves you so much time or improve makes it so that you feel you're getting that much more value out of your time, then everyone's gonna adopt that, of course, because that is the one thing that everybody does share in common is recognizing my time will come to an end.

我不知道自己还有多少时间。

I don't know how much of it I have.

我想尽可能多地享受它。

I want to enjoy as much of it as possible.

但就社会规范特性而言，我在回想自己参与酷儿运动的经历，现在回顾起来，其实已经20多年了，甚至更久，想起我们作为年轻的酷儿活动家，当时采用'酷儿'这样的词汇，而我们的长辈们却问：'你们为什么要用这个词？'

But then in terms of the social norm qualities, I was thinking about my my own experience with queer activism and, you know, looking back now, actually 20 and a bit more even, thinking back to when we were as young queer activists adopting words like queer and then having our elders be like, why are you using this word?

这个词太糟糕了。

That's a horrible word.

每当有人在你面前提到这个词时，总会发生一些不好的事情。

People only bad things happened when people said that word in your presence.

你们为什么要做这种事？

Why would you people do this?

你们这些年轻人，应该听长辈的话。

You young children, you should listen to your elders.

而现在，从我十三四岁甚至十五岁时的视角回望，发现‘queer’这个词似乎已经相当普遍了。

And now now thinking back from the perspective of my, like, 13, 14, 15 year old self, well, the word queer seems to be pretty well normalized.

因此，曾经有人站在规范之外，说：嘿。

And so at one point, folks were standing outside of the norm saying, hey.

我们不在规范之内。

We're outside the norm.

我们不属于这个群体。

We're not inside the group.

我们所有人都请进来。

And all of all of us here would like in, please.

然后，当所有人都进来后，你们就会重新界定谁在内、谁在外，什么是常态。

And then eventually, once everybody gets in, then you, like, redraw the parameters of who's in, who's out, what's the norm.

因此，我认为狮子座展现的是社会规范的光辉，但真正定义、维持并构建这一规范结构的其实是水瓶座。

And so I think the Leo side being the shining forth of the social norm, but it really being Aquarius that's defining and holding and holding the structure of that norm itself.

这说得通。

That makes sense.

比如社会制度。

Like the social institutions.

也许其中一部分，以及土星的特质在于，土星不仅有光环，同时也是肉眼可见的最远行星。

Maybe part of it and part of the Saturn component is, you know, Saturn both has those rings, but also Saturn is the furthest visible planet.

因此，这种原型的一部分可能在于探索边界，以及社会外缘的界限，然后推动这些界限，发现这些界限其实比人们此前认为的可以再延伸得更远。

So maybe part of the archetype is exploring what the boundaries are and what the boundaries on the outer limits of society are and then pushing those boundaries and finding out that those boundaries can be pushed a little further than people thought up to that point.

是的。

Mhmm.

哦，我太喜欢这个了。

Oh, I love that.

是的。

Yeah.

就像土星作为摩羯座的守护星，代表着物理边界和物质地球资源的限制。

Like Saturn as a Capricorn ruler being about physical boundary and limitation of material earth based resource.

而土星作为水瓶座的守护星，则关乎社会边界，处于社会规范或社会边界的边缘或外围。

And then Saturn as Aquarius' ruler being about social boundary and being at the edge of that or the outskirts of the social norm or the social boundary.

我认为水瓶座确实更倾向于挑战各种异性恋规范的体验，比如人与人之间的相处方式、对待自身身体的方式，这也是它进步性的一部分来源。

And I do think that Aquarius has a propensity to be more invested in pushing at the boundaries of different heteronormative experiences or, you know, ways of people relating to one another, ways of relating to our own bodies, and that's where some of the progressiveness of it can come from as well.

对。

Yeah.

这是个非常好的观点。

That's a really good point.

而仅仅挑战普遍的规范，可能正是水瓶座作为一个重要 recurring 现象的原型的一部分。

And just pushing against that which is normative in general might be part of the archetype for Aquarius as a major recurring phenomenon.

是的。

Yeah.

甚至可以说，是的。

Even like Yeah.

请继续，贝尔。

Go ahead, Bear.

我正想说，我觉得土星的很多特质都体现了这两种不同的视角，也许这正是摩羯座与水瓶座的区别所在。

I was just gonna say I think a lot about Saturn is holding these two different perspectives and maybe it is the Capricorn Capricorn Aquarius.

要知道，摩羯座如此接近回顾过去的坠落，但水瓶座就像是，我们已经走了一半的路程。

You know, Capricorn so close to the fall to looking back into the past, but Aquarius is like, we're halfway through.

我们必须展望未来。

We gotta look forward towards the future.

但土星兼具两者，比如，这是基础。

But Saturn has both the, like, here's the foundation.

这是石砌的墙，但也具有打破的特质。

Here's the wall set in stone, but also the qualities of breaking.

每当我想到骨折这件事的时候。

Like, anytime I think about, oh, broken bone.

土星在做什么呢？

What's Saturn doing?

部分是因为骨骼，但也因为断裂这个特性。

Partly because of the bones, but also because of the the breaking.

感觉无论是让连接变得坚不可摧，还是彻底永久地断裂，这都是土星的特质。

Feels like whether it's making the bond as permanent as possible or breaking the bond forever and ever, like, that's a Saturn thing.

因此，这体现在我们与社会制度的关联方式上——无论是强化它们，还是为未来而构建或引导它们。

And so it feels like that shows up both with the way we're connected to social institutions or reify them and also the way that we build them or or try to direct them for the sake of the future.

我太喜欢这个观点了。

I love that.

是的。

Yeah.

土星在这些星座中以不同形式体现的断裂，让我也想到摩羯座和水瓶座各自与家庭之间的关联。

Saturn as breaking in its different forms in these signs, and it makes me think about, the different correlation to family that Capricorn, excuse me, Capricorn and Aquarius both have as well.

比如，摩羯座的家庭关乎传承。

Like, Capricorn family is about legacy.

它关乎我们的骨骼和DNA。

It is about our physical bones and our DNA.

DNA literally 就像一架梯子，这是我最喜欢形容摩羯座的意象。

Like, DNA is quite literally a ladder, which is, like, my favorite image for Capricorn.

但水瓶座则关乎选择的家庭，我认为，它关乎我们有时如何打破以DNA和骨骼为基础的家庭传统，去获得某种其他、外部或非传统的家庭体验、归属感和联结。

But Aquarius is about chosen family, I think, and about the ways that we sometimes break from the tradition or the legacy of DNA bone oriented family to have some kind of other or outside or non normative experience of family and sense of belonging and connection.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

这让我想到了‘祖先’这个词的不同用法，我很久以来一直把土星与祖先、血统联系在一起。

It made me think about different ways of using the word ancestor, and I've I've thought about Saturn related to ancestor ancestry and ancestors for a really long time.

我想到的一件事是，在摩羯座，我就是我祖先最狂野的祈祷的化身。

And one of those things I was thinking is like in Capricorn, it's like, I am my ancestors wildest prayers manifest.

我就在这里。

Here I am.

他们的骨骼如今成了我的骨骼。

Their bones are now my bones.

而在水瓶座，我们就会说，天哪。

And then in Aquarius, we're like, holy cow.

我是某个人未来的祖先。

I'm I'm somebody's future ancestor.

我现在就是某个人未来的祖先。

I'm a future somebody's ancestor right now.

这关乎的是，如何在当下、在每一刻，成为一个好的未来祖先？

And it's about that like, oh, what does it look like to to to be a good future ancestor in this very moment, each moment?

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

没错。

True.

我们成为未来祖先的各种形式，无论是通过真正的子女、传承和构建的家庭，还是通过从水瓶座到双鱼座的转变。

And the various forms that we become future ancestors, whether that's through, like, actual children and legacy and created family or whether it's, like, the transition from Aquarius to Pisces.

终有一刻，我的身体将成为海洋的祖先，当我死去，我的身体回归大地，化为某种有机物质，进而转变为其他形态。

Like, at some point, my body will be the ancestor of the ocean, like, when I am dead and my body returns to the earth and becomes the ancestor of some kind of organic matter that is turned into something else.

嗯。

Mhmm.

就像维提乌斯·瓦伦斯，他是许多现在或未来听这个播客的人的祖先。

Or the way like Vettius Valens is the ancestor of a lot of people who are present now or listening to this podcast in the future.

是的。

Yes.

占星学之父。

Astrology daddy.

是的。

Yes.

我认为瓦伦斯本人有一些水瓶座的特质。

Valens himself, I believe, had some Aquarius stuff.

他的太阳落在水瓶座，至少在回归制下，水星也在水瓶座。

He was a sun and at least tropically Mercury and Aquarius actually.

哦，真的吗。

Oh, wow.

这太有道理了。

That makes so much sense.

是的。

Yeah.

说到挑战常规或对抗主流规范，

And speaking You mentioned non normative or pushing against things that are normative.

这让我想到了我最喜欢的一位喜剧演员，我经常将他与之联系起来。

And it made me think of one of my favorite comedians who I often associate.

在1962年，曾有一大堆行星聚集在水瓶座。

In like 1962, there was this huge pile up of planets in Aquarius.

而且

And

当时这相当引人注目，因为有些人说这将是世界末日，还伴随着许多糟糕的预言，而这些预言往往并非出自专业占星师之手。

it was kind of notable at the time because there was different Some people saying it was gonna be the end of the world or there's kind of many fiascos surrounding that of not great predictions being made by often not necessarily astrologers.

但无论如何，1962年2月出生在那场巨大的水瓶座星群下的人之一，就是埃迪·伊扎德。

But anyways, one of the people that was born under that huge Aquarius stellium in February 1962 was Eddie Izzard.

她上升星座是处女座，水星也在水瓶座，此外火星、土星、南交点、太阳、木星和金星也都位于水瓶座的第六整宫。

And she has Virgo rising with Mercury in Aquarius as well as Mars, Saturn, South Node, Sun, Jupiter, and Venus, all in Aquarius in the sixth whole sign house.

我只是想到她1999年那场大获成功的首部特别节目《盛装出击》。

And I just think about her first major special that was huge in 1999, Dressed to Kill.

其中一个重要主题是挑战当时的性别规范，而在1999年，这已经是非常前卫的了。

One of the things focusing on that was transgressing sometimes gender norms at the time, which was for the time for like 1999 was really, really edgy.

我觉得，尽管如今回头看已经不那么惊世骇俗了，但在当时能理解它所代表的意义，确实格外突出。

I feel like back then and nowadays while it's not so much, you know, so many years later, understanding it at the time for what it was I think really stands out.

是的

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我的多重出柜过程始于2000年。

I mean, I I first came out in my multi part coming out process in 2000.

作为一个年轻的酷儿群体成员，当时像艾迪的《着装杀人》这样的作品是极少数真正出现在主流媒体中的内容，而不是只在同性恋历史协会这类小众场合才提及性别或更广泛酷儿议题的边缘事物。

And so as a young queer person, that, like Eddie that Dress To Kill was was one of the few things that was out there and, like, real media, not some niche thing that you see in the Gay and Lesbian History Society that even touched on talking about gender in any kind of transgressive way or queerness in a broader way even.

它涉及了一些我们这次节目可能无法深入探讨的内容，但确实有医生阿里·阿洛米曾谈到，在拉丁文翻译过程中，阿拉伯语里关于土星与性别细微差别的表达被简化了。

And it it touches on some stuff that I don't I don't know what we can really dwell upon in this episode, but there is definitely doctor Ali Alomi has talked talked a bit about the kind of flattening of the gender nuances related to Saturn specifically in the Arabic that happened in the Latin translation process.

因此，阿里对土星有一些非常有趣的见解，甚至认为水星是那颗既非男性也非女性的行星。

And so there's some some Ali's got some very interesting thoughts on Saturn and even thinking about Mercury as the planet that is common or the planet that is neither neither masculine nor feminine.

我觉得，我经常称水星为非二元行星。

I think, you know, I often call Mercury the non binary planet.

所以看到水星和土星同时出现在这个星盘中，各自承担着重要的角色，再加上土星位于第六宫的位置，

And so seeing both Mercury and Saturn there together and holding different types of important roles in that chart and also the Saturn placement in the sixth.

这些因素让我觉得：‘没错，就是这样。’

There's a few different things there that I see as being like, oh, yes.

水瓶座、水星和土星以一种非常合理的方式汇聚在一起，但这在当时却是如此具有开创性和激进性。

The Aquarius and the Mercury and the Saturn all coming together in a way that really makes sense, but that was just so groundbreaking and radical.

我可以想象，对于那些在1999年或千禧年初尚未出生的人来说，如果他们观看《Dress to Kill》，可能会觉得整部片子令人尴尬，认为它过时或保守，但这种看法只是从如今回望的角度而言。

And I can imagine from the perspective of somebody who was maybe not yet born in 1999 or the early thousands, if they were to watch Dress to Kill, they might just cringe fest through the whole thing and not see it as being antiquated antiquated or backwards in some way, but that's, like, only from this, like, backwards looking perspective.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

而且在它被传播的那个时代，它确实是开创性的。

And in the context of when it was shared, it it was groundbreaking.

同时，第六宫也可以是行动主义的场所，因为它代表了为他人提供的服务。

And also there's that sense that the 6th House can be a place of activism as well because it's a service that is given to others.

因此，将酷儿身份表达为一种行动主义，或一种分享、服务他人的形式，确实非常契合这张星盘。

And so this expression of queerness as a kind of activism or something that is shared or something that is in service to, I think, really, like, yeah, speaks to the chart.

是的。

Yeah.

从这个角度来看，它是非常前瞻的。

And was very forward thinking in that sense.

我一直在翻看我不同水瓶座位置的星盘。

I keep looking through my different Aquarius placement charts.

另一个出现的是卡尔·马克思，他有水瓶座上升，而主宰星土星位于代表金钱与财务的第二宫，拥有非常前瞻、理想主义甚至乌托邦式的关于未来、金钱与商业的观念，并试图将其作为宣言提出，最终影响了很多人。

Another one that came up was Karl Marx who had Aquarius rising and then the ruler Saturn in the second house of money and finances and having this very forward thinking idealistic or utopian sort of ideas about the future and about money and commerce and things like that that they then tried to put forward as like a manifesto that then ended up influencing a number of people.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

卡尔·马克思真是一个很有趣的人物。

Karl Marx is a really interesting one.

我总是想到那句‘一个幽灵，共产主义的幽灵，在欧洲游荡’，然后我就想，对啊。

I always think about the, you know, a specter is haunting Europe and I'm like, oh, yeah.

土星和冥王星位于第二宫时，你会看待金钱与资本，觉得它们就像幽灵般萦绕。

Saturn and Pluto in the second house, you would look at money and capital and be like ghost haunting.

确实有幽灵出没的迹象。

Definitely ghost haunting afoot.

但即使在明年的运势预测中，你们也提到土星即将进入双鱼座，这种转变使得它不再像水瓶座那样具有技术性、进步性和社会性的理念。

But even, you know, I know in the year ahead forecast, talked a little y'all talked about the Saturn moving into Pisces and that kind of like concretizing of it's not quite the same technological progressive social ideas of Aquarius.

它更偏向于双鱼座的木星特质，即精神层面的倾向。

It's more of the like Jupiterian qualities of Pisces, the like spiritual leanings.

你知道，我认为水瓶座本身更关注于——比如卡尔·马克思就是一个很好的例子——剖析资本主义运作过程中究竟发生了什么，但双鱼座则更倾向于一种精神上、超越性的冲动，姑且这么说吧，而不是专注于未来最高效地去做某事某事。

You know, I think Aquarius itself would be more concerned with and, you know, Karl Marx is a good example of this, like breaking down the how does it happen, what is actually happening in the in the process of of capitalism, but then rooting into the Piscean more spiritual transcendent, for lack of a better word, kind of impulse rather than focusing on the and the most efficient use of time in the future would be to do x y z.

我认为如果他土星在水瓶座，情况可能会更像那样。

I think that if he had Saturn in Aquarius, it might have looked more like that.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得这也是个很好的例子，因为我们能看到社会主义的理念是为人民而设的，强调公平，为每个人、为整个集体留出空间，体现一种人与人之间的平等感。

I think it's a great example as well because we can see how the concept of socialism is something that is for the people and is about equity and having space for everyone and for the for the whole collective and this sense of, like, equality between individuals.

但在实践中，社会主义有时反而会以不同方式变得非人性化，因为它没有考虑到个体的独特性。

But then in practice, socialism can actually become dehumanizing in different ways because it doesn't account for the uniqueness of individuals.

我认为这是水瓶座必须应对的一个问题，即那种旨在为人民或集体服务的固定理想。

And I think this is one of the things that Aquarius has to navigate is, like, this fixed ideal that is meant to be for the people or for the collective.

但如果这种理想变得过于僵化，或者带有土星有时带来的刻板性，我们就可能在努力创造单一文化，而不是真正允许并接纳个体的独特性。

But if it becomes too fixed or if it has the rigidity that Saturn takes on sometimes, There's a way in which we are striving to create monocultures rather than actually allowing and embracing the uniqueness of individuals.

因此，我常常思考这种二元对立：一方面是僵化固定的理想，导致单一文化；另一方面是生态系统多样性，在生态系统中，每种生物都有其特定的位置和作用，但它们彼此完全不同。

And so I often think about the dichotomy between, like, the rigid fixed ideal of something that creates monoculture or ecosystem diversity, where in an ecosystem, everything has its specific place and purpose, but all of those things are completely different from one another.

如果我们从池塘中移除藻类，整个生态系统都会受到影响。

And if we, like, remove the algae from a pond, it's going to affect the whole rest of that ecosystem.

因此，我认为生态系统或许提供了一种更好的‘固定性’，一种比制造同质化更好的理想，而这也是社会主义可能存在不足的地方。

And so I think that, like, the there's a sense in which ecosystems are maybe like a better fixity, like better ideal than something that creates sameness, and and that's maybe where socialism has shortcomings as

嗯。

well.

是的。

Yeah.

我们之前也提到过类似的问题，比如斯多葛主义，这种哲学听起来在纸上非常美好，你可以从中汲取很多有益的东西，但它未必适合每个人。

There's a similar issue we talked I sort of mentioned in passing like stoicism earlier, which is like one of those philosophies that like sounds really good on paper and that you can take a lot of really great things from, but it may not necessarily be appropriate for everybody.

这种观念认为一切皆已注定，你所能做的最好的事，即使无法控制所有的外部环境，也能掌控自己的心态，应当不断练习对事物保持某种程度的超然，既不过分欣喜于生活中的好事，也不因坏事而极度沮丧，而是始终努力维持一种平衡状态。

This idea that you adopt a philosophy that everything is predetermined and that the best what you can do is even if you can't control all of your external circumstances, what you can control is your mindset and that you should constantly practice to be detached from things to a certain extent and neither rejoice excessively in the case of good things in your life nor become super depressed in the case of bad things, but instead to try to maintain an equilibrium at all times.

这种观念中有一些方面非常理想化，听起来很好，也能从中汲取有益的部分，但最终可能对每个人来说都难以实践，甚至对某些人来说，试图践行这种观念可能并不合适，如果违背了他们最真实地生活的方式，反而可能造成伤害。

And there's some things about that are very idealistic and sound good and that you can take good things from, but ultimately may be hard for everybody to implement or may not even be appropriate for everybody to try to implement, may be detrimental to some people if it goes sort of contrary to the way that they could best live their life in a way that's authentic to them.

所以，这或许是一个反复出现的主题：完美的理性哲学或生活方式固然理想，但试图让每个人都适应同一种模式，或将某种理想强加于所有人，有时却会落空。

So maybe that's a recurring theme about the idealism of a perfect intellectual philosophy or way of life, but something that may be the attempt to want everybody to adapt to the same thing or to have an ideal forced on everybody sometimes coming up short.

这让我想到了斯多葛主义和佛教之间的某些相似之处。

It makes me think about some of the parallels between stoicism and Buddhism.

比如马可·奥勒留提到他孩子时说的一段话，他提到：是的，他们可能会死去。

Know, like this one part of Marcus Aurelius that kind of stuck out to me where he's talking about like his kids and being like, yeah, they could die.

你应该能够面对这种现实，不至于被‘你的孩子明天可能就去世了’这一事实压垮。

And you should you should be able to look at that and not be so not be so overwhelmed by the reality that your kid could be dead tomorrow.

我当时心想：天啊，这家伙真狠。

And I was like, damn, dude.

这确实是深刻地认识到一切皆无常的一种极端应用，我认为这正是佛教的说法，至少根据我自己的修行和体验是这样理解的。

That's really it's a very intense application of recognizing that everything is impermanent, I think would be the Buddhist way of saying the same thing, at least as I understand based on my own practice and experience.

所以想到这个，你知道，就像达赖喇嘛在斯坦福大学演讲时发表的一些评论。

And so thinking about that, you know, even like, the Dalai Lama made some comment about speaking at Stanford.

他当时在谈论平静心，他说，是的。

He was talking about equanimity, he said, yes.

后台有一个奶酪拼盘，我吃了，然后意识到我其实更想要巧克力蛋糕。

Backstage, they had a cheese cheese platter, and I ate it, and I realized that I really would have preferred chocolate cake.

而这并不是一个特别好的平静心的例子，我本应是一个完美的平静心典范，无论面对狗屎、巧克力蛋糕还是奶酪，我都能同样快乐。

And that that's not a particularly great example of equanimity that I should an example of the perfect type of equanimity where I would be equally happy with dog poop or chocolate cake or cheese.

没什么区别。

Makes no difference.

显然，我是在转述。

Obviously, I'm paraphrasing.

所以，从几个不同的角度来思考，不管是不是那种情况。

And so thinking about a couple different ways, whether it's that sort of thing.

比如，哦，你的感觉只是感觉，反正你也不是你的身体。

Like, oh, well, your, you know, sensations are just sensations and you're not your body anyways.

所以，你知道，你正经历着剧烈的神经疼痛。

And so you're, you know, you're excruciating nerve pain.

你应该，比如说，咬牙挺过去。

You should just, like, tough it out.

没什么大不了的。

Not a big deal.

忽略它。

Ignore it.

你可以抽离出来，或者甚至从时间的角度去思考。

You could disassociate away or even thinking about things like with time.

你知道吗？

You know?

哦，让我们展望未来七代人，但很多研究表明，人类的心理其实无法思考那么长远。

Oh, let's look forward seven generations, but there's a lot of research that suggests that human psyche isn't really capable of thinking that far ahead.

或者就像我们之前讨论的某些类型的科学实验或某些科学领域那样。

Or like we were talking about with certain types of, you know, scientific experiments or certain fields of science.

我们从科学上知道，无论是视觉感官还是听觉感官，我们的感知能力都远远不足以捕捉所有的声音或光线。

We we know scientifically that we don't have the, like, bandwidth, whether our visual visual sensory equipment or hearing sensory equipment to even perceive all of sound or see all of light.

因此，我们总想表现得好像自己能完全、完美地感知一切，尽管显然我们做不到；或者像克里斯，你之前提到的，我们似乎像时间旅行者一样影响未来，但我们也知道，即使未来真的可以被影响，我们连思考得那么远都很难做到。

And so there's this kind of, like, wanting to be able to act as though we had full and complete perfect perception of everything even though we clearly don't or wanting to act in a way where we can you know, Chris, I think earlier you said something about, like, almost being like a time traveler in the way that we influence the future, but we also know that we can barely even think far enough in the future to to do that even if it weren't possible.

我认为土星并不能解决这个悖论。

And I think it's like Saturn doesn't resolve the paradox.

我认为，真正做这项工作的是在双鱼座那里。

It's it's over there in Pisces that we we do that work, I think.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这其实关乎不执着的概念，这既是水瓶座的恩赐，也是它的诅咒。

It's really the notion of non attachment, which is both an Aquarian blessing and a curse.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这让我想起你之前讲的故事，贝尔，关于那位中风的神经科学家，他一边监测着中风过程中大脑的实际神经反应，一边以一种超然好奇的态度观察发生的一切，而不是完全沉浸于体验之中——而完全沉浸其中、不与之分离，这更像是双鱼座的主题。

And, I mean, it makes me think about the story you were telling earlier, Bear, about the neuroscientist who was having a stroke and then, like, monitoring, like, the actual neurological responses happening during the stroke and having this non attached curious experience about what's happening rather than necessarily being immersed in the experience itself, which is more of a Piscean theme to be fully immersed in something and not separated from it.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

我开始更多地回忆起她之前提到的内容。

I'm remembering a little bit more of what she talked about.

特别是她大脑的某一侧在一段时间内关闭或受到了影响。

And It was like one side of her brain in particular was shut down for some time or was impacted.

在TED演讲中，她描述了这一过程如何剥夺了人们通常认为属于人类意识的某些部分，从而使人脱离了理性、线性、语言主导的自我。

And in the TED talk, she recounts basically, like, that process taking away part of what one would typically ascribe regular human consciousness and so kind of being removed from the rational linear language bound part of being a person.

但作为一名科学家，她意识到这一切正在发生，于是感到震撼：原来这就是我，我的动物身体。

And but as a scientist being aware that that was happening and so being, like, struck with, oh, this is me and my animal body.

这就是我的动物身体通常所体验的状态。

This is what my animal body normally would be experiencing.

所以我认为，这暗示着在水瓶座所能理性容纳的边界之外，存在着某种完全不同于我们自身、却又属于我们的一部分。

So I think there's something there about, like, understanding that on the the edge of what Aquarius can contain rationally is something that is entirely other than ourselves, but also part of us.

就像，这让我们陷入太阳对冲狮子座的困境，但同时也让所有土星相关的事物与光体形成普遍的对冲。

Like, it puts us into that detriment of the sun opposite Leo, but also all of Saturn stuff being opposite the lights in general.

并且，它对我们来说始终是黑暗的，但我们知道它就在那里，就像死亡一样。

And to, like, stays dark to us, but we know it's there just like death.

就像，我们永远无法真正谈论它，但我们又总是在谈论它。

Like, we can't ever really talk about it, but we're often always talking about it.

这让我想到了很多事情。

That makes me think of so many things.

其中之一是这种感觉，即水瓶座在某种程度上超越了我们的动物本性。

One of them being this sense that, Aquarius is somehow beyond our animal nature.

我想，这正是人类觉得我们与其他种类的动物或生命形式不同或相异的地方，或者说在某种程度上超越了它们。

Like, I think it's where human beings feel that we are different or other from other kinds of animals or other kinds of life forms or being somehow beyond it.

这也让我想到了蜘蛛和蜘蛛网，我最近一直在思考它们与水瓶座的关系，并且读到关于蜘蛛实际上在其网中具有意识，它们将思想和记忆投射到它们所创造的物理网中。

And it also makes me think about spiders and spider webs, which I've been thinking about a lot in relation in to Aquarius lately and, like, reading about how spiders actually have consciousness in their webs and that they project thought and memory into the the physical webs that they create.

这对我来说是一个非常水瓶座的概念，你刚才说的真的让我想到了这一点，因为有一种将我们的意识投射到其他事物上，或者超越我们物理身体的感觉，但同时也与周围空间相互连接。

And this feels like a very Aquarian concept to me, and what you were saying really made me think of that because there's a sense of, like, projecting our consciousness into other or, like, beyond our physical body, but something that is also, like, interconnected with space around us as well.

这太有趣了。

That's so interesting.

我立刻想到的是我祖母给我讲过的某个原住民的故事。

The like, immediately what immediately came to mind was my grandmother telling me about an indigenous people's story.

当然，我已经不记得她当时说的是哪个民族了，也许她根本就没说清楚。

And, of course, I can't remember who she was even saying, and maybe she didn't even say.

她只是说‘原住民’。

She just said native people.

我祖母说，原住民相信那位蜘蛛祖母，她的故事和她编织的蛛网。

My native grandmother, native people believe that that grandmother spider, her story, her web spin stories.

我知道非洲大陆上的一些族群也有类似的观点，比如看待安纳西（Anansi），认为蛛网是记忆的物理载体。

And I know that there are some some different groups on the African Continent who would have the similar type of view looking at Anansi and just thinking about like, oh, spider web is the the physical container of of memory.

故事本质上就是一种轻盈的情感记忆的传递。

That's what stories are is is, like, is an airy transmission of emotional memory.

除非我们对某个事件有情感联结，否则我们几乎不可能记住它。

Like, we don't unless we have a feeling attached to an event, we are very unlikely to remember it.

这很有趣。

So that's interesting.

我不知道。

Don't know.

这感觉像是把一些事情串联起来，或者指向了水瓶座作为水瓶的隐喻。

It feels like a pulling together of some things or maybe pointing to the the metaphor of Aquarius as the water bearer.

水瓶座并不是正在诞生的水。

Like, Aquarius isn't the water that's being born.

水瓶座是那个允许人承载水并将其倾倒出来的东西。

Aquarius is the thing that allows one to carry the water and then dispense it.

这里的水指的是情感。

Water being the emotions there.

所以，蜘蛛网是传递故事及其所蕴含情感的物理载体。

So, like, the spider web is a physical vessel for transmitting stories and the emotion that's contained in them.

我喜欢这个说法。

I love that.

或者，我们可能是蜘蛛网中心的个体蜘蛛，但我们与更广阔、更宏大的事物相连，并共同创造着这些事物，它们承载着我们的故事和记忆。

Or, like, we might be the individual spiders at the center of the web, but we are connected to and creators of something that is much more vast and much more broad than that that also contains our stories and our memories.

我喜欢这种意象：故事和记忆是延伸到我们周围物理空间中的东西，超越了我们个体的细胞、自我和身体。

And I love the image of story and memory being something that extends into physical space around us, like, beyond our individual cells, selves, and cells.

这让我想到原子，以及电子与原子核之间实际相隔多么遥远。

Like, actually makes me think about, atoms and how the electrons are, like, physically so far apart from the nucleus of the atom.

我小时候在科学课上就一直对这个问题感到好奇。

And I always wondered about that, like, as a younger person in a science class.

这到底是怎么运作的呢？

Like, how does that work?

这是否在告诉我们，有一种实际的能量或某种东西与我们相连，远远超出了原子核或核心的范围？

Is that telling us that there's actual energy or something that we're connected to that extends well beyond the space of the nucleus or the center of that thing?

是的。

Yeah.

就像蜘蛛网那样，我一直很好奇，小时候我想象蜘蛛会从一棵树爬下来，横跨到另一棵树，再爬上去，身后拖着蛛丝，但显然这并不是真实发生的情况。

It's like the way that spiders webs, you know, like, I I always wondered and as a kid, I imagined that spiders would, like, climb down a tree and across to another tree and then back up the tree dragging their web behind them, and that's clearly not what's happening.

据说，它们利用风将自己微小的身体从一个地方吹到另一个地方，这就是它们能够建造，比如大型圆网之类的东西的方式。

Apparently, they use the wind to carry their little tiny bodies from one place to another, and that's how they they get or at least, like, the big orb weepers and stuff.

它们正是靠这种方式织出如此壮观的网。

That's how they're able to make these really epic webs.

是的。

Yeah.

这里面似乎有一种物理表现形式，能形成三维的连接，而这种连接本身还能捕捉露水。

Something something in there about about the, like, that physical manifestation that creates three d connection that itself is dew catching.

这个画面有点奇怪，但我正在想象看着一张蜘蛛网的样子。

Kind of a weird image, but I'm thinking about like looking at a spider web.

它几乎像是不存在的，却悬挂在空气中，它到底有什么作用？

It's like it's almost not there and it exists suspended in the air, and what does it do?

它能捕捉露水。

It catches dew.

露，露水，湿润的水分。

D e w, dew, wet wet moisture.

对吧？

Right?

而水瓶座是一个潮湿的星座，或说是产生露水的星座。

And Aquarius is a damp sign or a dew producing sign.

我想我以前也在一些古代文献中读到过。

Think I read in one of the the ancient texts as well.

所以，如果水瓶座的主宰星是土星——那是一颗干燥寒冷的行星，我们通常不会认为它与情感或连接有关，但它足够具体、足够有能力收集水分，因此它最终具备了那种关系性的、情绪性的湿润特质，据我理解，这种湿润指的是能够凝聚和吸收的东西，而这正是水象星座具有关联性和情感性的原因，如果我没理解错的话。

And so if if, like, Aquarius is, you know, has Saturn as a ruler that's a dry cold planet, and so we wouldn't think of it being particularly concerned with emotions or connectivity, but it's just material enough, just just capable enough of collecting moisture that it ends up having those those relational, like, the the temperament temperamental wetness and moisture as I understand it, meaning, like, things that can collect and that's what makes the makes the water signs relational and emotional, if I understand correctly.

哇。

Wow.

这太美了。

That's so beautiful.

这就像某种东西开始凝结成形的最初阶段，引导我们回归双鱼座——这种由风创造的网络，风是纯粹的空气之物，却能让我们将某种东西凝聚到足以成形的程度，从而引领我们进入更水性的空间，或更具体的体验？

It's, like, the first beginning of something condensing into form that leads us back into Pisces, like, having this network that is created from wind, which is literally a thing of the air that allows us to condense something enough into form that then we are led into more watery spaces or into more, like, physical experiences?

是的。

Yeah.

这里似乎涉及整个水循环。

Something there about, like, the whole the whole hydrological cycle.

如果我们只想到海洋、河流或雨水，就很容易忘记空气也是其中的一部分，还有凝结这个过程。

If we just think about oceans or rivers or rain, then it's easy to forget the air is part of it and that, like, condensation, that whole thing.

甚至只是思考不同的元素，空气是向上运动、迅速上升的，这与水和土形成对比，水和土则是向下流动的。

And even just thinking about the the the different elements, air being upward moving rising rapidly, which is in contrast to water, which is then water and earth, which are downward trending.

是的。

Yeah.

水会升到空气中去。

It's like the water moves up into the air.

但这个凝结过程，我知道有些传统中将水瓶座与降雨联系起来，因为水瓶座被认为是带来雨水的星座，这种水瓶的象征意义正是来源于此。

And but that condensation process and I know some there's some connections between Aquarius and rain as the rain bearing sign I think is part of in the tradition where we get the water bearing dignification or imagery.

对。

Yeah.

我们其实应该提一下这一点。

We should actually mention that.

水瓶座传统上被称为‘水的承载者’，这意味着它像一个提水的人，与其相关的传统符号是一个人手持装满水的花瓶，水正从瓶中倾泻而出。

So Aquarius is traditionally called the the water bearer, which means like the water carrier and the traditional symbols associated with it are a person that's holding like a a vase that's full of water and that there's water like pouring out of it.

有些人会混淆这一点，以为水瓶座是水象星座，但实际上它是风象星座，尽管它被称为‘水的承载者’，这与‘承载’或‘传递’某种有价值的东西——即水——的概念有关，但并不意味着它本身是水。

And sometimes people confuse that and they think that Aquarius is a water sign, but it's actually an air sign, even though it's called the water bearer and it has to do with that concept of carrying the water or transporting or transmitting something that's valuable which is water, but not necessarily being water itself.

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

就像贝尓说的，水瓶座在一年中的这个时候升起，预示着雨季的到来。

And and like Bear was saying, like, it was associated with Aquarius was rising at this time of the year, then it was signaled to bring the rainy season.

因此，这是一种‘承载水’的表现，但并非水本身。

And so it was like this bearing of water, but not being of the water itself.

我认为土星也与水相关的贸易有关，这感觉非常像‘水的承载者’的体验——贸易的发生是因为有水，且在水的附近，但这些贸易本身并非水。

And I I think also Saturn is, connected to water trades as well, which feels very much like a water bearer kind of experience, like trades that take place because there is water and in proximity to the water, but are not, like, of the water themselves.

这更多是关于通过水来传输资源和材料。

It's more about the transmission of resources and materials through water.

嗯。

Mhmm.

最近我经常和客户深入探讨土星的这一点，我会说，好吧。

I've been dwelling on that point with Saturn a lot with my clients recently and kind of saying, okay.

这挺有意思的。

Well, it's interesting.

土星与灌溉渠道有关，也与地球下的矿物有关，直到冥王星出现并接管了这项职责。

Saturn's associated with things like irrigation canals and also with minerals under the Earth before Pluto came and and co opted that job.

他说，那，你知道的，是水。

He says, like, that's, you know, water.

土星，这已经很奇怪了。

Saturn, that's already strange.

矿物，这些到底有什么共同点？

Minerals, what what do these have in common?

这些是你如果想要富裕所必需的东西。

Those were things you would need if you were gonna be wealthy.

如果你在一片以农业为主的沙漠地区没有灌溉渠道，你就没有食物。

If you don't have irrigation canals in a desert place that's agrarian based, then you don't have food.

你没有主权。

You don't have sovereignty.

你没有可以传承的遗产。

You don't have you don't have a legacy to hand down.

你什么都没有。

You don't have anything.

因此，我认为水瓶座与掌控能力之间有着非常有趣的联系，这种能力能够容纳摩羯座所关注的那些需要保存的事物。

And so I think there's very interesting connection with Aquarius specifically is the ability to harness, the ability to contain all of those things that Capricorn is concerned with conserving.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

这种财富或丰裕感，似乎可以通过我们与水的亲近，或者与摩羯座所代表的资源——如矿产和肥沃土壤——的亲近而获得。

And that sense of, like, wealth or abundance being something that can come through our proximity to water or through our proximity to Capricorn type resources, like mineral and rich soil and all the all of these things.

这让我想到加拿大原住民社区所经历的一些扭曲现象，特别是我们这里有五大湖。

And it makes me think of, like, some of the distortions of indigenous communities that have happened in Canada, specifically where, you know, we have the Great Lakes here.

因此，人们天然地能够获得淡水。

And so there is this inherent access to fresh water.

而在许多河流和沿海地区，这些原本属于原住民社区的水道，在殖民者到来并意识到靠近水源的价值、以及通过 proximity to water 能够获取的财富后，被他们占为己有。

And then on a lot of the rivers and on the coast, these access accesses to different waterways that were originally, home to indigenous communities and then co opted by settlers once they arrived and realized, like, the sort of inherent value of being in proximity to water or like the wealth that could be accessed through the proximity to water.

是的。

Yeah.

绝对如此。

Absolutely.

让我想起

Reminds

世界上许多主要文明都是在靠近大河或水源的地方发展起来的。

me of how like a lot of major civilizations around the world developed in places where they had a proximity to like a major river to water.

你知道的，埃及、美索不达米亚、中国、印度，比如印度河流域文明，世界各地都是如此。

You know, Egypt, Mesopotamia, in China, in India, like the Indus Valley civilization, like all over the world.

沿着湄公河一路都是。

All along the Mekong.

我的族人是以附近的河流命名的，尽管我们甚至不是定居型的民族。

My people were named after the river that were near even though we weren't even fixed permanent settlement type dwelling having people.

而且我认为，即使在今天，世界上大约80%的人口仍然居住在海边或主要河流附近。

And I think even today, something like 80% of the world's population lives very adjacent to either the ocean, or or a major riverway.

这就像是人类文明的一个核心基本组成部分。

It's like one of the core fundamental parts of of human civilization.

甚至想想航运贸易、灌溉渠这些，它们都是需要花费很长时间才能完成的事情，而且需要你花大量时间倾听长辈们讲述花费这么多时间观察天气现象的价值，这样你才能真正成功地规划一次海上航行。

And even thinking about the, you know, shipping trade, irrigation canals, they're things that take a very long amount of time to to complete, and they would require having spent a lot of time listening to your elders about the value of spending this much time noticing weather phenomena so that you actually can successfully plan a sea voyage.

所以我觉得，如果我们再稍微深入挖掘一下，那里会出现很多不同的土星特质。

So there's like a lot of different Saturn things that show up there, I think, if we keep digging even a little bit deeper.

是的。

Yeah.

这或许会成为我们本期节目最核心的主题之一，即人类主要文明真正围绕水域或邻近水域发生并扩张的观点，以及其背后更深层的原因——不仅将水视为生存之源，更将其作为运输和移动物资的途径。

That's gonna be one of our most core things maybe for this episode, which is the idea of like human major human civilizations really happening and expanding around water or near water and some of the deeper reasons for that, not just as a source of sustenance with water but also means of transporting things and moving things.

即便在今天，尽管我们拥有飞机等工具，但大部分国际贸易货物仍是通过巨型船舶实现的，它们实实在在地将货物从一个大陆运往另一个大陆。

And even today, even though we have airplanes and stuff, the majority of international trade of goods happens through huge ships that literally transport stuff from one continent to another.

这让我第一次意识到，两个土星星座其实都比表面看起来更关注水元素。

Makes me realize for the first time that both of Saturn signs are more concerned with water than they seem at first.

你看，摩羯座是海山羊，而水瓶座这个风象星座却忙着倾倒水。

You know, Capricorn, the the sea goat, and then Aquarius, the air sign that is busy pouring out water.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

说得好。

Good point.

没错。

Yeah.

这很有趣，因为就个性表达而言，土星星座可能抗拒水象特质或水象本质，但同时又非常善于利用它。

It's funny because, like, in terms of personality expression, Saturnian signs might resist watery expression or watery nature, but then make very good use of it at the same time.

就像，我不希望自己是那样的，但我希望以最有效的方式去运用它。

Like, it's like, I don't wanna be of that, but I want to use that in the most efficient way possible.

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。

Mhmm.

好的。

Alright.

我们刚从广告中断回来。

We're back from a break.

那我们现在是否可以转到讨论一些具体的星盘例子呢？

Why don't we transition at this point into talking about some example charts?

我翻了一下我的文件，找了一些有水瓶座配置的人。

I did a search through some of my files just for people with Aquarian placements.

一个常被提及的经典例子是水星位于水瓶座的马丁·路德·金，他可能有金牛座上升。

One of the classic ones that's often mentioned of a Mercury in Aquarius is, Martin Luther King Junior who had potentially Taurus rising.

据说他出生于正午，如果这是正确的，那么他的水星就位于第十宫整宫的水瓶座11度。

He was said to be born around noon, which if that's correct, put Mercury at 11 degrees of Aquarius in his tenth whole sign house.

我们之前谈到过这种前瞻或富有远见的特质，人们常常将他的《我有一个梦想》演讲视为美国历史上最重要的演讲之一。

And, you know, we were talking earlier about that forward looking or forward thinking component and people often cite his I Have a Dream speech as one of the most significant speeches in American history.

这再次很好地体现了这种前瞻性——他谈论的不是当下现实，而是他希望有朝一日我们能抵达的理想状态，即使他自己可能永远看不到那一天。

And that might be a good example again of that forward thinking component of it's like he wasn't talking about what things are right now, but instead he was talking about this idealized state in the future where he hoped that we would get there someday even if he himself would never see that.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

这也挺有意思的。

It's interesting too.

《我有一个梦想》演讲是在《伯明翰监狱来信》之后发表的，我想到了瓦伦斯关于水瓶座‘背叛声誉与真相’的说法。

I have a dream speech kind of coming after the letters from a Birmingham jail And I I think about that Aquarius nature showing up in the something that Valens actually says about Aquarius, betraying reputation and the truth.

想到伯明翰监狱的信件，你知道，金博士非常敏锐且简洁地指出了所谓的‘可是……怎么说’——这是一种人们常用来反驳的方式。

And thinking about the letters to Birmingham jail, you know, doctor King very very astutely and succinctly calls out some of the what about ism is something is one way that people call it.

但那种以‘现在还不是时候’为形式的对进步的抵制。

But the the resistance to progress that comes in the form of, it's not quite the right time.

比如，哦，这太快了。

Like, oh, that's too fast.

也许我们应该用另一种方式来做。

Maybe we should do it this other way.

因此，我认为特别考虑到他的形象，你知道，我们也可以将他的星盘与美国的星盘进行对比，看到一些有趣的东西。

And so I think particularly thinking about his image and, you know, I think we could also look at his chart relative to The US chart and see some interesting things.

但想到伯明翰监狱的信件和《我有一个梦想》演讲这两者，都是他展望未来、憧憬那种理想化的完美进步的体现，他说：是的，我依然抱有希望。

But thinking about those two different, you know, letters from a Birmingham jail and I have a dream speech both being examples of him looking forward at that place of potential utopian perfect progress being achieved and looking and saying, like, yes, I still have the optimism.

我依然忠于这个梦想，同时也指出了当前阻碍这一梦想实现的所有现实障碍。

I'm still committed to the dream, and also here are all of the current present impediments to that dream coming into being.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，这些信件以及公开演讲作为一种水星般的体验，出现在第十宫中，非常贴切。

And also both the the letters as well as the public speaking being mercurial experiences up there in the tenth house like that.

出版信件或向更广泛的集体梦想发表演讲，这种感觉也非常恰当。

The publishing of letters or the sense of public speaking to a larger collective dream feel really apt as well.

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

For sure.

让我们看看。

Let's see.

其他水瓶座的配置也让我想起了我的文件。

Other Aquarius placements have gotten my files.

罗伯特·佐勒是传统占星术的早期先驱之一，他是二十世纪晚期最早出版关于阿拉伯部分或星点著作的占星师之一，1980年他出版了一本名为《预测的失落钥匙：占星术中的阿拉伯部分》的书。

Robert Zoller who was an early pioneer of traditional astrology and he was really one of the first astrologers in the late twentieth century where he published a book on the Arabic parts or the lots in 1980 called The Lost Key to Prediction, the Arabic Parts in Astrology or something like that.

他有双鱼座上升，太阳、水星和火星位于水瓶座的第十二宫，同时上升的传统守护星木星位于天蝎座的第九整宫。

He had Pisces rising with the Sun, Mercury, and Mars in Aquarius in the twelfth house as well as the traditional ruler of the Ascendant Jupiter in Scorpio in the ninth whole sign house.

有趣的是，他对占星术的未来有着一种愿景，即通过回望过去来展望未来。

Interestingly, he had a vision of the future and the future of astrology that involved looking back into the past.

他是最早大力倡导回归并翻译、恢复古代占星术原始文献的人之一，认为这些古老文献依然有用且相关。

He was one of the first people that really championed that idea that we should go back and translate and recover a lot of these old sources from ancient astrology saying that they were still useful and relevant.

他常会说，有时候他会说：‘旧的方法才是好方法。’

One of the things he would say, I mean, he would say sometimes is he would say like, The old ways are the good ways.

在某些情况下，这种观点可能是好事，甚至是积极的。

And sometimes there's a certain way in which that can be a good thing or positive thing.

但另一种情况下，这种想法可能导致某种原教旨主义，如果有人认为‘只有旧的方法才是好的’，那就未必那么好了。

There's another way in which that can lead to a sort of fundamentalism which can be not as good if somebody's like only the old ways are the good ways.

但有趣的是，过去与未来之间的这种动态关系，有时会以不同方式交织或混合在一起。

But it's interesting how you have that dynamic sometimes of past and future and them getting mixed up or intertwined in different ways.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，这是我另一个水瓶座的例子。

So that's that's one of my other other Aquarius examples.

这个例子也非常有趣，他的星盘中存在庙旺和三分主星的互容交换，特别是考虑到土星作为该派系的三分主星。

Really interesting one too and with his chart having that mutual exchange of domicile and triplicity, especially thinking about Saturn as the triplicity lord of the sectite there.

这种反复来回确实强化了这两方面，我想到了很多没有机会直接参与'远见计划'的年轻占星师。

That back and forth just really hammering down both of the like, I think about I think like a lot of younger astrologers who didn't who didn't have the chance to interact directly with project hindsight.

就像，罗伯们就像是这些，你知道的，非常像超人，这些太阳般的人物，在原型意义上代表了那种运动。

Like, the Robs are like these, you know, very much like Superman, these like solar figures that are like archetypally represent that movement.

所以，那个太阳与土星的对分相如此紧密，来回拉扯，并且确实扮演着那种祖先般的象征性角色，如果这说得通的话。

So something about that Sun Saturn opposition being so tight and going back and forth being like and really holding down that ancestral figurehead kind of role, if that makes sense.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，现在想想，在那个'远见计划'成立及其最初一阵活动频繁的时期，土星实际上正行经水瓶座，当时他们都在谈论，作为激发占星界热情的主要理念，就是占星学的未来在于回顾过去。

Well, now that I think about it, Saturn was actually going through Aquarius during that timeframe of the founding of Project Hindsight and their initial flurry of activity and where they were all talking about that as their main idea to excite the astrological community was that the future of astrology involved looking back into the past.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

就像你说的那样，贝尔，太阳与土星之间的对冲和互容，就像是，嗯，我们需要尊重传统，但同时也要以一种推动传统向前发展的方式，或者让我们能够展望传统的未来，以及土星与太阳之间那种支持性的交流。

And that opposition and mutual reception between the Sun and Saturn like you're saying, Bear, it's like, well, we need to respect the tradition, but also in a way that is progressing our tradition forward or allowing us to look to the future of the tradition and that kind of supportive exchange between Saturn and the Sun.

是的，当然。

Yeah, for sure.

好的，其他人。

All right, other people.

这个例子有点搞笑，但金·凯瑞有水瓶座星群，可能上升天蝎座，土星、木星、水星和南交点都在水瓶座。

This one's kind of a goofy one, but Jim Carrey has Aquarius stellium with potentially Scorpio rising, Saturn, Jupiter, Mercury in the south node in Aquarius.

我认为这是另一个例子，他事业真正起飞的时间点大约就在土星进入水瓶座前后，或者非常接近，我相信差不多是这样。

And I think that's another one where it was like right around the time his career really took off was around the time of Saturn and Aquarius or pretty close to it, I believe, give or take.

这很有趣，因为他当时有一种古怪、滑稽的喜剧风格，在九十年代早中期显得非常独特，甚至有点另类。

And this is funny because he had kind of like a wacky kind of like zany comedy style that was like really unique and kind of like odd at the time in the like early to mid nineties.

我最近读到一篇文章，提到他的一位合作演员是汤米·李·琼斯。

I was reading this thing recently about one of his co stars was Tommy Lee Jones.

汤米·李·琼斯是一位更严谨的传统派演员，他完全无法认同吉姆·凯瑞的风格，曾对他说过类似‘我不认可你的滑稽表演’这样的话。

And Tommy Lee Jones was a more strict traditional actor in that he really did not jive with Jim Carrey's style at all and told him once, I do not condone your buffoonery or something like that.

想到这一点真的很有趣，因为吉姆·凯瑞作为演员的影响力，我认为已经逐渐被他作为喜剧演员的身份所超越。

Really funny thinking about that in that context a little hard because Jim Carrey has become less prominent I think as an actor over the comedian.

但这也是那种情况：如果你当时就在场，就会意识到他因为显得古怪、怪异或特立独行而格外突出，这其实说得通——尽管后来那些曾经显得怪异的东西，渐渐变得司空见惯。

But it's again one of those things where if you're around at the time and you realized how he stood out by being kind of odd or kind of weird in a sense or going against the grain, it sort of makes sense even though later those things which were odd at the time became sort of commonplace.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我不确定他在出演《In Living Color》之前是否有过什么突出的作品。

I mean, even I don't know if he did anything prominent prior to his role on in Living Color.

而且你的听众中，可能很多人并不了解《In Living Color》这个节目。

And probably a lot of people in your audience may not know about a living color.

它基本上就像《Mad TV》或《SNL》那样的固定小品喜剧节目。

It was basically like kinda like Mad TV or SNL recurring skit comedy show.

嗯。

Mhmm.