占星学中的相位模式，由卡罗尔·泰勒主讲

多尔林·金德斯利以这种方式出版这本书非常有雄心，因为它的目标读者既包括可能对占星学有些了解的人，也包括完全的初学者。

It was ambitious of Dorling Kindersley to do it that way because of course, it was aimed at people who have maybe some knowledge of astrology but also people who are complete beginners.

在很多方面，这是一本面向普通读者的书。

It's a layperson's book in many ways.

它是一种邀请，尽管我希望它对那些已经懂一些占星学的人也有价值，可以作为他们学习的辅助读物。

It's an invitation in although I hope it's of value to people who already know some astrology, a kind of companion to one's studies.

但我们想做的，是让占星学不仅易于理解，而且不只是停留在基础层面，不只是教你如何解读金星在第十宫或火星在第六宫。

What But we wanted to do was to make astrology not only accessible but not just the nuts and bolts, not just how do you interpret Venus in the tenth house or Mars in the sixth.

我们想展示的是，如何将所有这些知识整合起来，因为占星学最困难的部分，当然是将你所学的一切整合成一个完整的星盘解读。

Wanted to show, we wanted to show how you can bring all of that together because the most difficult part of astrology of course is integrating, synthesizing everything that you know into a whole chart interpretation.

当然，当你进行客户咨询时，人们会关心他们生活中各种不同的方面。

And of course, when you do client work, people are interested in all sorts of different aspects of their life.

他们会带着许多许多问题前来。

They have come with many, many questions.

总会出现一些你意想不到的意外问题。

There's always a curveball question which you're not expecting.

所以，我认为占星师们有必要思考这些不同领域，以及如何快速从星盘中获取所需的信息。

So, I think it's important that astrologists think about these different areas and how you can very quickly get the information that you need from around a chart.

这正是我们当初的目标。

It was aimed at that really.

当然，占星学适用于生活的方方面面。

And of course, astrology applies to absolutely every aspect of life.

你可以将它应用到生活的每一个方面。

You can apply it to every aspect of life.

我总是对占星配置如何描述从最平凡、最普通、最直白，甚至常常很滑稽的表现，一直到最深层的心理现象感到震惊，而这些往往出现在同一组配置中。

And I'm always stunned at how astrological configurations describe some of the most mundane, ordinary, literal, often quite funny manifestations right way through to the most deeply psychological and often in the same configuration.

是的，确实如此。

Yeah, definitely.

占星学有趣的一点在于，它描述的是我们的生活，而我们生活的很大一部分都涉及日常琐事和非常基础的主题。

That's one of the funny things about astrology since it describe our lives and a good portion of our lives deals with mundane topics and very basic topics.

所以，你们这本书的一个特点是它非常全面。

So one of the things about your book is it's very comprehensive.

我经常因为学生会问，如果你只能买一本涵盖所有内容的占星书，你会推荐哪一本？

I always because students will often ask, if you had to buy one astrology book that covers everything, which one would you recommend?

但不幸的是，从来没有任何一本书能涵盖所有内容，我以前的推荐是《帕克占星学》。

And unfortunately, there's never really a book that covers everything, but my recommendation used to be Parker's Astrology.

不过那是一本较老的书，已经多次再版和重印。

Although that's an older book that's been in circulation and reprinted at different points a bunch of times.

直到最近，那一直是我主要的推荐。

Up until recently, that was my main recommendation.

但现在你的书几乎成了那样的书，我只是好奇，你在写作时是否有意将其作为对《帕克占星学》的替代，或者希望达到甚至超越它的全面性？因为在我看来，这本书的一个突出特点就是它几乎取代了《帕克占星学》，成为你想买一本入门占星书时的首选。

But now your book sort of became that and I was just curious to what extent you had that in mind as something you were almost replacing or something you aspired to do or be just as comprehensive as or even to exceed since to me that's one of the things that this book does is it kind of replaces Parker's as the book if you want to buy one book to learn astrology with.

嗯，我感到非常荣幸。

Well, I'm very flattered.

我不确定我当初的初衷是想把《帕克》从榜首位置赶下来。

I'm not sure I set out to sort of knock Parker's off the top spot.

《帕克》已经出版很久了。

Parkers had been out for a long time.

当我还是学生的时候，读过这本书。

It was one of books that I read when I was a student.

是的，这本书非常有趣。

Yeah, it was a hugely fun book.

我不是在任何肤浅的意义上这么说。

I don't mean that in any sort of superficial sense.

这是一本非常吸引人的书。

It's a very attractive book.

所以，某种程度上，我们想做的是与那本书略有不同。

So, in a way what we wanted to do was something slightly different to that.

他们并不只是想重复帕克的书在做什么。

They didn't want to just do a rehash of what Parker's was doing.

帕克的书没有做的一件事是真正把所有内容整合起来，关注生活情境，并探讨如何解读星盘。

And one of the things that Parker's didn't do was really to bring everything together and look at life situations and look at how to interpret charts.

当一个人面临某种特定的生活情境时，你如何运用占星术来应对？

And what happens when a person is faced with a particular kind of life situation, how can you use astrology to navigate through that?

那是一个全新的东西。

That was something new.

所以，它并不是为了取代帕克的著作。

So, it wasn't designed to replace Parker's.

它的真正目的是做些略有不同的事情，提供所有必要的信息，就像一本百科全书，涵盖从星盘中可以获得的各种信息，然后进行这种综合分析。

It was really designed to do something slightly different to provide all the necessary information like a sort of encyclopedia of all the different pieces of information that you can gain from a chart but then to do this piece of synthesis.

是的，它让我对写作产生了兴趣。

Yeah, it's given me a taste for writing.

当然，现在我正在着手写好几本书。

And of course, now I've got several books on the go that I'm in the process of writing.

其中一本是关于相位和相位模式的。

One actually on aspects and aspect patterns.

所以，关于这个，敬请期待。

So, yeah, watch this space on that.

很好。

Good.

这很好地引出了我们的主要话题。

Well, that provides a nice segue into our main topic.

不过，我顺便提一下，我在书店里其实发现了两个版本。

Although really quickly, when I came across it in the bookstore, actually came across two versions of it.

似乎有一个版本非常庞大且全面，那就是我之前展示过的那个。

It seems like there's one version that is very big and comprehensive and that's the one that I showed already.

但你的出版商也推出了这本书的简版。

But your publisher also did a shorter version of the book.

完整版的书名是《用星空的智慧融入你的日常生活》。

The comprehensive version is titled Using the Wisdom of the Stars in Your Everyday Life.

但他们还出版了一个简版，书名为《太阳星座、行星、宫位及其他全部奥秘指南》。

But then it seems like they also published a shorter version that's titled, The Secrets of A Complete Guide to Sun Signs, Planets, Houses, and More.

这本质上是同一本书，包含了第一部分的所有占星入门原则和概念，但删减了第二部分中关于具体主题如事业、关系、旅行等内容的详细解析。

And that's essentially the same book that contains all of the intro to astrology principles and concepts from the first half of the book but just doesn't go as much or takes out the section in the second half that deals with addressing or delineating individual topics like career relationships or travel or other things like that.

是这样吗？

Is that right?

没错。

That's right.

《占星术的秘密》是面向年轻人的。

The Secrets of Astrology is aimed at young people.

它取了书的第一部分，即其核心内容，并重新表述为适合年轻人的版本。

It took the first part of the book, the nuts and bolts side of it and reworded it to be aimed at young people.

他们希望目标读者大约在10到12岁左右。

They wanted to aim at roundabout the age of 10, 12.

所以它没有包含生活情境，因为显然10岁的孩子还没有职业，也不会面临成为父母之类的问题。

So, that's why it doesn't have the life situations because obviously 10 year old doesn't have a career or faced with ideas of what to do when you become a parent and so on.

这就是为什么这些内容被删掉了。

That's why that was taken out.

这是专为儿童设计的版本。

It's a version for children.

好的。

Okay.

这真有趣，因为这实际上就是我找到的版本。

Well, that's really funny because that's actually the version that I found.

这是我拍的真实照片，当时我正走过这家书店，儿童区的一个展示架吸引了我的注意。

This is the actual picture that I took where I was walking across this bookstore and this display in the children's section caught my eye.

那是我看到的第一版这本书。

And that was the first version of the book that I saw.

然后，二十分钟后，一个朋友给我发了条消息，问：‘刚才在儿童图书区看占星书的人是你吗？’

And then a friend of mine texted me twenty minutes later and said, Was that you that was sitting in the children's book section looking at astrology books?

我笑了，说：‘是的。’

And I laughed and said, Yeah.

他们说这非常符合我的性格，但正是这样，我才发现了其他几本书。

And they said that that was very in character for me, but that was how I discovered the other books.

所以，基本上，另一本更针对孩子，但我认为内容还是一样的。

So basically, the other one's more geared towards kids, I guess, but it's still the same.

看起来这些书的章节内容都差不多。

It seemed like the same sections of the book.

所以它并不一定被简化或过度简化。

So it's not necessarily simplified or dumbed down too much.

只是没有那么全面。

It just isn't as comprehensive.

没错。

That's right.

是的，初衷并不是为了简化，因为孩子非常聪明。

Yes, the idea wasn't to dumb it down because children are very intelligent.

懂得很多事情。

Know what's going on.

当然。

Sure.

我认为占星术有一种非常独特的地方，因为它是一种原型性的、象征性的语言。

And I think there's something very distinctive about astrology because it's this archetypal, this language of symbols.

即使在很小的时候，我遇到的很多人、我教过的很多学生都说，他们在八岁、九岁、十岁，或者很年轻的时候就发现了占星术。

Even at a young age, think and so many of the people I come across, so many of the students I come across, say, I discovered astrology when I was eight or nine or 10 or quite young.

而且我们对占星术的联系有一种非常本能的特质。

And there's something very instinctive about our connection to astrology.

所以，无论如何，用婴儿般的语气跟孩子说话是一种错误。

So, think anyway it's a mistake to speak in sort of baby tones to children.

但你显然需要去掉一些不相关的内容。

But you do obviously need to take out some of the things that are just not relevant.

所以，这就是当时的初衷。

So that was the idea there.

好吧，这说得通。

Okay, that makes sense.

如果人们要在两者之间做选择，我肯定会推荐选更全面的那个，即使贵一点，也值得，因为它包含的内容多得多。

Well, I would definitely recommend if people are trying to make a choice between the two to just go for the more comprehensive one even if it's a little bit more expensive just because it's worth it because of how much more it contains.

我买的版本，还是从巴诺书店买的，最后还附了一些闪卡，用来学习行星、星座和宫位，也非常有用。

And the version that I got even had from Barnes and Noble had some flashcards that it came with at the end for learning planets and signs and houses which was very useful as well.

我不确定所有版本都有这个，这只是个小赠品。

I don't know if that's in all versions, was just a little bonus.

好的。

All right.

我认为这很好地过渡到了我们今天的话题，因为在书中的某个地方，你谈到了你所谓的相位模式。

I think that's a good transition into our topic today where at one point in the book, you have a treatment of what you call aspect patterns.

我认为这些模式有不同的叫法。

And I think there's different names for this.

我听说过相位模式、出生图模式或行星模式。

I've heard it as aspect patterns or birth chart patterns or planetary patterns.

我不确定是否漏掉了其他名称，但总的来说，这是指星盘中涉及三个或更多行星的不同组合形式。

I'm not sure if I'm forgetting any, but it's just a general topic of different formations that involve I think three or more planets in a chart.

我想你在书中是这样定义的，对吧？

I think that's how you defined it in the book, right?

是的。

Yes.

我的意思是，这里的占星听众应该能理解相位模式这个概念，我希望如此。

I mean, astrological listeners here will recognize the idea of aspect patterns, I hope.

所以广义上说，是的，三个或更多行星通过相位结合成某种构型。

So just broadly speaking, yes, three or more planets brought together by aspect into configuration.

我本来想说的是那些被广泛认可的构型。

Well, I was going to say recognized configurations.

当然，大多数占星师，尤其是在现代心理占星背景下工作的占星师，都会熟悉一些常见的构型。

Of course, there's a number that probably most astrologers or most astrologers working in a sort of modern context, sort of broadly modern psychological context would recognize.

我在书中只讨论了其中一些，因为实际上你可以想到的模式数量非常多，虽然不是无限多，但确实很多。

I only deal with certain number in the book because of course there's probably endless numbers of not quite endless but numerous patterns that you could think about in a chart.

任何星盘都会出现金星与太阳相联，而太阳又与火星相联，火星又与木星相联，这种组合是否构成一种模式。

And any chart is going to throw up combinations of Venus connected to the Sun which is also connected to Mars which is also connected to Jupiter and does that form a pattern.

几天前，我在网上偶然看到了一位占星师迈克尔·厄尔雷文的绘图，他是一位出色的占星师。

On the internet, I came across just a few days ago some drawings by Michael Erlewyn, astrologer, wonderful astrologer Michael Erlewyn.

他为所有这些构型——即相位模式——都起了名字。

And he's given names to all of these patterns, aspect patterns.

我猜是他给这些模式命名的，而且数量相当多。

I assume that it was him that gave them the names and there's quite a few of them.

作为占星师，当我们看星盘时，我们是在描述我们所看到的，是在解读我们所看到的内容。

As astrologers, what we're doing when we're looking at charts is describing what we see, we're interpreting what we see.

但当然，大多数占星师可能会认出某些可辨识的模式，比如T型相位、大十字、大三角形等等。

But of course, most astrologers would probably recognize a certain number of recognizable patterns like the T square, Grand Cross, the Grand Trine and so on.

这确实是我的看盘方式的一部分。

Certainly part of the way in which I look at charts.

我总是寻找相位模式，因为我认为这些模式揭示了某种情结，展现了行星驱动力和原型如何融合成一种行为模式或经验模式，并在一个人生活的各种不同情境中反复出现。

I'm always looking for aspect patterns because I'm seeing those as they show something of a complex, they show something of an integration of planetary drives and archetypes coming together into a pattern of behavior or a pattern of experience which repeats itself again and again in lots of different sets of circumstances in the person's life.

而且它们是动态的。

And they're dynamic.

任何一种模式在一个人生命过程中都可能以多种不同方式呈现。

And there are lots of different ways in which any one pattern might present itself in the course of somebody's life.

因此，我认为这是一种动态的能量，我在占星学习中相当惊讶地发现，古典占星师或传统占星师其实并不太认可这些模式，因为我的训练路径并不是从这个方向来的。

So, I think it's a dynamic energy and it's something that I was quite surprised really in my astrological studies to see that the classical astrologers, traditional astrologers don't really recognize these patterns because I didn't come up through that route in my training.

我对此感到非常惊讶。

I was quite surprised to see that.

是的，你可能会觉得相位模式似乎是最近才出现的概念。

Yeah, you would think aspect patterns seems like more of a recent thing.

我知道最早的一位作者是马克·埃德蒙·琼斯。

I know one of the earliest authors is Mark Edmund Jones.

没错。

Absolutely.

他基本上可以说是现代相位模式理论的主要奠基人。

He's basically like the founder of modern aspect pattern theory for the most part.

我认为他定义了今天大多数标准的相位模式。

I think he defined most of the standard ones today.

但你说得对，古代占星术中几乎没有对此进行讨论，这确实令人惊讶。

But you're right, it's surprising that there's not a lot of discussion of that in ancient astrology.

在印度占星术中确实有一些痕迹，比如我在公元二世纪的《雅瓦纳贾塔卡》中注意到，他们确实有一些对不同行星组合模式的分类，并赋予了不同的名称。

There's a little bit in Indian astrology like I did notice in the Yavanajataka in the second century that they do have some groupings of different planetary standardized patterns that they'll give different names to.

但在西方传统中，这无疑是一个更近期的概念。

But at least in the Western tradition, it's much more of a recent concept.

是的，我也这么认为。

Yes, I think so.

我的意思是，显然相位的概念由来已久，托勒密和马尼利乌斯都曾描述过它们。

I mean, obviously aspects go way back and Ptolemy outlines them, Manilius outlines them.

我们有了一些标准的相位解读方式。

And we have sort of standard ways of seeing aspects.

然后开普勒引入了五分相、二重五分相和四分三相，因为他对谐波非常感兴趣，对宫位并不关心，甚至对黄道也兴趣不大，但他对谐波模式极为着迷。

And then Kepler brought in I think the quintile, the bi quintile and the sesqua quadrate because he was of course very interested in harmonics, wasn't interested in the houses, wasn't even really interested in the zodiac, but was very interested in harmonic patterns.

这确实完全正确。

It really absolutely right.

我不确定是不是马克·埃德蒙·琼斯特别提出了这些相位模式的概念。

I'm not sure that it was Mark Edmund Jones particularly that brought in the idea of these aspect patterns.

他提出了星盘模式。

He has the chart patterns.

我对马克·埃德蒙·琼斯关于相位模式的研究可能不太熟悉，但对星盘模式，如机车型、水桶型、展示型星盘等，我确实很了解。

I'm perhaps not so familiar with Mark Edmund Jones' work on aspect patterns but certainly on chart patterns, the locomotive, the bucket, display chart and so on.

所以是行星在星盘中的分布。

So, distribution of planets around the chart.

你知道是谁最早引入了关于相位模式的讨论，或者有哪些奠基性的作者专门谈论过这些相位模式吗？

Do you know who did introduce or who some of the foundational authors are that talk about aspect patterns in particular?

鲁迪亚谈到了这些。

Rudhya talks about them.

鲁迪亚谈到了这些。

Rudhya talks about them.

他谈到了三合格局，也谈到了其他一些模式。

He talks about the grand trine, he talks about other patterns.

他并没有谈到所有我熟悉的那些模式。

He doesn't talk about all of them, all of the ones that I would be familiar with.

我的直觉是——虽然我其实没有任何证据支持这一点——但我觉得可能是20世纪初的宇宙生物学家，比如阿尔弗雷德·维特和德国学派，他们复兴了开普勒的思想，从谐波共振的角度来解读星盘，这才真正开启了这种围绕星盘产生共振模式的可能性。

My instinct, I don't actually have any evidence for this, but my instinct would say that it was perhaps with the cosmobiologists with Alfred Witter and the German school at the beginning of the twentieth century resurrecting the ideas of Kepler and looking at the chart in terms of harmonic resonance that really started to bring in the idea of a possibility of a pattern that resonates around the chart.

鲁迪亚所谈论的相位模式概念，是指必须包含分布在星盘各处的行星，也就是说，它整合了来自星盘各处的行星。

The idea that Rudhya talked about the idea of an aspect pattern being it has to contain planets that work around the chart a sort of it integrates planets from around the chart.

所以，真正来说，鲁迪哈尔可能是最早在20世纪60年代和70年代公开谈论这一点的人。

So really, think Rudhyar is the first one who's really talking openly perhaps about that in the 1960s and '70s.

我在想，还有哪些地方卡特提到过相位模式。

I'm trying to think of the other places where I think Carter talks about aspect patterns.

查尔斯的《占星百科全书》里说，那是什么？

Charles The Encyclopedia of Astrology said, What's that?

是30年代、40年代吗？

The '30s, '40s?

大概是那个年代到50年代左右。

Something like that into the '50s.

但我觉得，我接受训练时认为的一些标准模式，比如神秘矩形、硬矩形、世界之指等等，可能都是比较新的概念。

But I think really some of the patterns that I had considered when I was training to be quite standard, things like the Mystic Rectangle and the Hard Rectangle, the Finger of the World and so on.

我认为它们很可能相当新近才出现。

I think they're probably fairly recent.

好的。

Okay.

它们可能非常新近。

They're probably very recent.

所以，我们不妨不做全面概述，而是简单介绍一下你书中提到的一些今天会涉及的模式。

So, let's do maybe not an overview, but just to touch base or to give a brief overview of some of the ones we'll be touching on today, are ones that you talked about in your book.

其中一个广为人知、经常被讨论的模式是‘尤德’或尤德相位模式，还有‘T型相位’。

One of the ones that's famous that people often talk about a lot is the yod or yod aspect pattern and there's also the T-square.

星群是一种相位模式，还有神秘矩形、小三合相、风筝相位、硬矩形、大三合相——后者是最简单直接的一种，此外还有一些其他次要的模式，比如‘世界之指’。

Stellium is a sort of aspect pattern, the Mystic Rectangle, the Minor Grand Trine, the Kite, the Hard Rectangle, and the Grand Trine, which is one of the most simple and straightforward ones, as well as some other minor ones like the Finger of the World.

这些就是你在书中简要讨论的所有模式。

So those are all the ones that you discuss briefly in your book.

我们该从哪里开始呢？

Where should we start?

我们该从星群这个基础模式开始吗？或者你通常讲解相位模式时，是从哪里开始的？

Should we start with the stellium as a basic one or where do you usually start when you start talking about aspect patterns?

我通常会把星群留到最后讲。

I usually leave the stellium till last.

我知道它通常排在第一位，但我总把它留到最后，因为从某种意义上说，它根本不算一个相位模式。

I know it's first in I the usually leave it till last because in a way it isn't really an aspect pattern.

传统上，合相并不被视为一个相位，因为行星并不是在相互‘注视’。

And traditionally, course, the conjunction isn't an aspect because the planets are not looking at each other.

它们并没有真正地跨越星盘彼此形成相位。

They're not literally not aspecting each other across the chart.

所以我通常把它留到最后一讲。

So I usually leave it until the end.

我通常从T型相位开始，但可能是因为我自己的星盘里就有这样一个T型相位。

I usually start with T-squares, but that's probably because I've got one in my own chart.

对。

Right.

所以这看起来像是我从熟悉的领域开始。

So it seems like I'm starting from familiar territory.

这挺有意思的，因为我也正想说我们得从星聚开始，因为我的星盘里有个星聚。

Well, that was funny because that's why I was going say we have to start from the stellium because I have a stellium in my chart.

也许我们都带有偏见。

Maybe we're both biased.

T型相位，我的意思是，我们可以从T型相位开始。

A T square, I mean, we could start with a T square.

这无疑是其中最基础的一种，因为它只涉及三个行星。

That's certainly one of the most basic ones because it just involves three planets.

所以从构建模块的角度来看，它相当直接。

So that's in terms of building blocks is pretty straightforward.

是的。

Yeah.

苏·汤普金斯说，大约45%的星图都有T型相位。

Sue Tompkins says that something like 45% of charts have T-squares.

我不知道她是否对此进行过任何定性研究。

I don't know whether she did any qualitative research on that.

当然。

Sure.

对。

Right.

这是一个相当常见的相位模式。

It's a fairly common aspect pattern.

你遇到它的次数远多于大十字，因为那里只涉及三颗行星。

You it lot more than you do a Grand Cross for instance obviously because there's only three planets involved there.

那我们如何定义T型相位呢？

So how do we define a T?

T型相位是指两颗行星形成紧密的对冲，同时被第三颗行星成直角相位，第三颗行星同时对这两颗行星形成直角。

So a T square is two planets that are in a close opposition that are both squared simultaneously by a third planet which is squaring both at the same time.

是的，完全正确。

Yeah, that's exactly right.

你用多大的容许度来判断这个相位？

What kind of orbs do you use for this?

这个相位需要比较精确吗？如果一个新手想知道，大概的范围是多少？

Is this something that needs to be relatively tight or what sort of ranges might be involved if a new student is wondering?

我有一套自己使用的容差范围，大致符合我所学到的方式，但这并不是传统的容差看法。

I have a set of orbs that I use which is pretty roughly in tune with the way that I've been taught which is not the traditional way of looking at orbs.

我关注的是相位本身的容差，而不是行星周围存在一个固定容差范围的概念。

I'm looking at orbs of aspect rather than the idea of a planet having an orb around it.

对于冲相和四分相，我都使用八度的容差。

I'm using for the opposition and for the square also, I'm using an eight degree orb.

所以对我而言，精确度的两侧都有一个允许的容差范围。

So, there's an allowable orb either side of the exactitude of for me.

好的。

Okay.

我的意思是，这并不是一个绝对精确的东西。

I mean, it's not an exact thing.

这有点像一张照片，焦点在周围略微模糊。

It's a bit like a photograph that comes into an outer focus around

好的。

Okay.

另外，这算是一个附带的话题，我本想早点提出来的。

And additionally, this is a kind of a side note, I meant to bring it up earlier.

你说你用的是等宫制，而使用等宫制的传统确实源自于学院或学院的某位创始人，对吧？

So you said you used equal houses and there's a tradition of using equal houses that's specifically like from the faculty or one of the founders of the faculty, right?

是的。

Yes.

学院于1948年在英国成立。

Well, the faculty was founded in 1948 in The UK.

当时在英国，等宫制我认为是最流行的宫位系统。

And at that time in The UK, really Equal House was I think the one that was the most popular.

玛格丽特·霍恩在她的占星学教材中使用的正是这种宫位制。

And it was the one that Margaret Hone used in her textbook on astrology.

玛格丽特·霍尔是五位创始人之一，和另外几位一起，从伦敦占星协会中创立了学院。

Margaret Holm was one of the founders, one of the five founders along with Yeah, so there were five founders who founded the faculty out of the astrological lodge of London.

因此，学院从创立之初就采用了等宫制，此后这便成为学院的一种传统。

And so, the faculty started to use equal house and it's become a tradition really since then for the faculty to use equal house.

有时也会用普拉西杜斯系统。

Do sometimes stray into Placidus.

我曾经用普拉西杜斯、卡罗尔和等宫制看过我的星盘。

I had my chart read in Placidus and Carole and in equal.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

这真的太棒了。

That's just really cool.

在现代占星术中，尤其是在美国，普拉西杜斯系统通常占主导地位。

Placidus is usually such a dominant system in modern astrology at least in The US.

而整宫制在过去十年到二十年间重新流行起来，但有趣的是，等宫制因为英国的传承，特别是与学院的关联而如此流行。

And then whole sign has seen a resurgence in the past ten or twenty years, But it's interesting that equal is so popular because of that lineage in The UK and specifically with the faculty.

我一直对了解它是如何运作的，或者你是如何将其融入你的实践中的这类事情感兴趣。

I'm always interested in learning more about how that works or how you've integrated into your practice and things like that.

是的。

Yes.

我的观点是，所有的宫位系统都是有效的，它们都管用。

I mean, of the opinion that all of the house systems are valid, they all work.

而且，这或许又回到了这种神谕性的元素——当你去找占星师时，你所接触的是一种能量轨迹。

And again, this perhaps comes back to this oracular element that actually when you go to see an astrologer, what you are engaging with, it has a sort of energy trail.

它始于一个问题，始于一种寻求，最终在咨询室或线上，由占星师进行星盘解读。

It starts with a question, it starts with the seeking and it ends up in the consulting room or online with the astrologer having the chart reading.

因为长期以来，不同的宫位系统让我感到困扰。

Because it troubled me for a long time that there were lots of different house systems.

我认为这困扰着很多占星师，尤其是初学者。

I think it troubles a lot of astrologers, particularly students.

他们会想：到底哪个才是对的？

Think, Well, which one is the right one?

但实际上，你不该问这个问题。

And actually, don't think that's the right question to ask.

正确的宫位系统就是你正在使用的那个。

The right house system is the one that you're using.

你可以相信，基于这个宫位系统所谈到的内容，正是本次咨询中需要探讨的部分，因为你清楚，在九十分钟（或你任何时长的咨询）里，不可能讲完关于一个人的所有可能话题。

And you can trust that what is going to be spoken about that comes from that house system is the thing that needs to be spoken about in that session because you know that you can't get through everything that could be said about that person in your ninety minute session, however long your session is.

因此，这其中有一种占卜般的元素，你必须相信你所使用的系统是正确的。

So, there is this sort of divinatory element to it and you have to trust that what you're using is the right one.

对我而言，等宫制是有效的，但我并不否定其他系统。

Equal house works for me, but I don't discount the others.

当我审视自己的星盘时，我也会用其他宫位系统来看自己的星盘。

When I look at my own chart, I will look at my own chart in other house systems too.

我曾经和梅兰妮·莱因哈特做过一次占星咨询，她使用的是科赫系统，结果我的第三宫行星进入了第四宫。

And I've had some quite extraordinary experiences with my I had a reading with Melanie Reinhart once and she used Koch where my third house planets go into the fourth.

我们整个咨询过程都在讨论我的父亲，这完全出乎我的意料。

And we spent the entire session talking about my father which I was totally not expecting.

但那正是当时最需要被谈及的内容。

But it was the thing that needed to be spoken about at that particular time.

这标志着哀悼过程的结束，并让这个哀悼过程得以完成。

And it was the end of a grieving process and allowed that grieving process to take place.

所以，作为占星师，你必须选择一个你觉得有效的宫位系统，你理解它的哲学和技术基础，具备其技术依据，它能引起你的共鸣，你用它工作，它就像你工具箱里的一件工具。

So, think as an astrologer, you have to choose a house system that you think works that has some sort of you understand the philosophical and technical underpinning of it, you have the technical basis of it, It speaks to you and you work with it and it's in your toolbox as it were.

所以，我不太在意别人问我：‘为什么你用等宫制？’

So I don't worry too much about, Please, miss, why do you use equal house?

它是

It's

这是一个每个人都会问的问题，因为那么多人使用普拉西杜斯宫位制。

a question that everybody always asks because so many people use Placidus.

但普拉西杜斯宫位制很大程度上是由心理占星师推广开来的，比如莉兹·格林、霍华德·扎斯波特、理查德·艾德蒙，以及现在的林恩·贝尔和梅兰妮·莱因哈特等人。

But Placidus was I think was popularized very much Has been by the psychological astrologers by Liz Greene, Howard Zaesporter, Richard Eidemon, now Lynn Bell and Melanie Reinhart, etcetera.

实际上，梅兰妮用的是科赫制，他们很多人用的都是普拉西杜斯制。

Well, actually, Melanie uses cock, so many of them use Placidus.

当然。

Sure.

如果你使用的是不同的象限系统，只是稍微移动一下中间宫头，这与切换到等宫制或全宫制相比，差异并不大，因为在等宫制或全宫制中，宫头会明显不同。

And there's not a huge difference if you're using different quadrant systems and just moving the intermediate cusps a little bit, that's not a huge difference compared to jumping to equal houses where the cusps will be much different or jumping to whole sign houses where the cusps are much different.

是的。

Yeah.

但为了不熟悉等宫制的人能快速了解，如果我再用你的星盘做个例子，你只需确定上升点的度数，然后从那里向下划分，这就是第一宫，接着从那里继续划分，就是第二宫，以此类推，对吧？

But just quickly for anybody that's not familiar with equal house, and if I can just use your chart again as an example, you just identify the degree of the Ascendant and then you measure downwards and that becomes the first house, And then you measure from there and that becomes the second house and so on and so forth, correct?

是的，没错。

Yeah, that's right.

所以你会得到一个天顶-天底轴，就像我这张星盘里显示的那样，天顶和天底是浮动的——天顶可能落在第十二宫到第七宫之间的任何位置，这取决于你的纬度；天底也是如此，可能落在第一宫到第六宫之间的任何位置，这取决于你的纬度和出生时间。

So you end up with an MC IC axis as you can see in my chart here, the MC IC is floating The MC can land anywhere between twelfth to the seventh house depending on your latitude and ditto with the IC anywhere from the first through to the sixth depending on the latitude the time of day that you were born.

我特别喜欢这一点，因为全宫制也是这样，但在象限制中，这种情况根本不会发生。

I love that because that's also true of whole sign houses, but it's not something that usually in quadrant houses that doesn't happen at all.

那么，你通常如何在等宫制中解读这一点呢？

So how do you usually do you end up interpreting that in equal houses?

你还会关注中天的度数以及它落在哪个等宫中吗？

Do you still pay attention to the degree of the Midheaven and where it falls or what equal house it falls in?

或者在等宫制中，这并不一定起任何作用吗？

Or does that not necessarily play any role in equal houses?

不，绝对要关注。

No, absolutely you do.

显然，那里还有第四宫和第十宫的轴线，然后你还有中天和天底。

Obviously, there's the fourth tenth house axis there also and then you have the MCIC.

因此，这两条轴线可能会传达出略有不同的含义。

And so, you have the potential for there being a slightly different thing being said by those two axes.

根据我的经验，中天和天底轴线具有一种个人内在、非常私密的特质。

And in my experience, there is something personal interior, something quite private about the MC IC axis.

因此，天底并不像第四宫那样明确代表我们从过去继承的遗产，第四宫非常明确地代表我们的根源、家庭背景和家族传承。

So the IC becomes not so much our legacy from the past which the fourth house very definitely is our sense of our roots and our family roots and our inheritance from our family.

天底成为我们必须去识别的地方。

The IC becomes this place that we have to identify.

在我们的一生中，我们必须 somehow 确定自己想要源自哪种根源，或者想要在世界上作为个体扎根于哪种根本。

We have somehow during the course of our life have to identify as being the root that we want to come from or the root that we want to put down in order to be in the world as an individual.

我认为中天更多是关于实现祖先、家人或父母的期望，而不是做完全属于自己的独特之事。

And I think the MC is perhaps less about fulfilling the expectations of the ancestors or of our family, of our parents and doing something which is entirely unique to us.

因此，我认为这个自由浮动的中天-天底轴非常有帮助，它让我们在星盘中看到两个不同的地方：根与绽放、家与职业。

So, this free floating MCIC axis is actually quite helpful I think in giving us two different places in the chart where we can see roots and flowering, home and profession if you like.

我也喜欢这样的观点：等宫制赋予了你一个已知的相邻边界。

I also like the idea that what the equal house system does is it gives you the known adjacent wall.

它为你提供了地平线之上、上升点之上的最高点，那里将是最高 elevation 的行星所在的位置。

So, it gives you the point that's above the horizon, above the Ascendant where the most elevated planet will be.

在我的星盘中——当然你还没输入——是凯龙星，那颗隐秘的行星。

In my chart which you haven't put in of course, it's Chiron, the hidden planet.

不，不，这样很好。

No, no, that's fine.

这完全没问题。

That's absolutely fine.

那是我星盘中位置最高的行星。

That's my most elevated planet.

因此，等宫系统为你提供了实现这一点的机会。

So, the equal house system gives you the chance to do that.

并且正好位于九十里点上。

And is right on the nonagesimal point.

此外，黄道或黄道面上的最高点与九十里点重合，九十里点是相对于上升点的位置。

Also, the most elevated point of the zodiac or the ecliptic coincides with the nonagesimal which is the point relative to the Ascendant.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

我经常注意到，这正是人们最了解你的地方。

And I've often noticed that that is the thing that people know you for the most.

也许这对我尤其如此，因为我的中天位于第八宫。

Perhaps this is particularly so for me because my MC is in the eighth house.

中天的工作发生在这种更加内在的空间中，有一种特别的意味。

There's something about the work of the MC taking place in this much more interior space.

我们通过这种方式在追寻自己的天职。

We're reaching for a sense of our vocation through that.

当然，它也通过第十宫体现，但那更多是它的外在表现，是我们显然选择走的道路。

And of course, it comes through the tenth house too, but that's more the outer manifestation of it, the route that we've obviously chosen to take.

它也反映了我们因所继承的家族背景而做出的职业选择。

And it says something about the professional choices that we make as a result of the lineage that we've come from.

因此，它直接与第四宫相连。

So it's directly connecting back to the fourth house.

我喜欢这一点。

I like that.

谢谢你分享这些。

Thank you for that.

我很感激。

I appreciate it.

好的，那么我们回到相位模式，回到我们最开始的相位模式——T型相位，有时也被称为T型十字。

All right, so back to the aspect patterns and back to our very first aspect pattern which is the T square or sometimes known as the T cross.

我们正在讨论两个行星之间的对冲，然后第三个行星进来并与这两个行星形成刑相位。

So we're talking about an opposition between two planets and then a third planet coming in and squaring both of them.

所以我想，这从一开始就体现了它的独特性。

So I guess that's one of the things that's unique about this right from the start.

这一点在古代的教科书中常常被忽略，因为它们都会孤立地解释这些相位。

This is one of the things that's kind of left out of the ancient textbooks is they'll all interpret these in isolation.

它们会告诉你当月亮刑克火星时会发生什么，或者当木星与土星对冲时会发生什么，但它们不会告诉你，如果木星与土星对冲，而这两者又同时刑克火星时会发生什么，或者其他类似的情况。

So they'll tell you what happens when you have the Moon square Mars or they'll tell you what happens when you have Jupiter opposing Saturn in isolation, but they won't tell you what happens if you have Jupiter opposing Saturn and both of them are squaring Mars or what have you.

因为在任何实际的星盘中，你都必须综合这些位置，而任何出生星盘的独特性就在于综合所有这些孤立的位置，然后得出一个整体的解读。

Because in any actual chart, you have to synthesize together the positions and that's part of the uniqueness of any birth chart is taking all of the different isolated positions into account and then producing a combined delineation.

我想，相位模式的一个用处就在于，它迫使你尽快、尽早学会如何形成综合性的解读。

I guess that's one of the things that aspect patterns are useful for is forcing you to learn how to come up with combined delineations relatively quickly and relatively early.

是的。

Yes.

对，我认为是这样。

Yes, I think so.

我的意思是，人是无穷复杂的，而相位模式确实很好地体现了这一点。

I mean, people are endlessly complex And I think the aspect patterns really do justice to that.

如果没有查看这些相位模式，我是不会尝试做星盘解读的。

I wouldn't want to try and do a chart reading without looking at them.

当然，有些人并没有公认的相位模式。

Of course, there are some people who don't have the recognized aspect patterns.

但这并不意味着他们的生活就不复杂。

That doesn't mean to say that their lives aren't complex.

但你可以看到每一个这样的相位模式。

But you can see each of those aspect patterns.

以T型相位为例，其中包含两个行星的对冲。

So taking the T square for instance, there's the idea of two planets in opposition.

因此，这个人会感受到，这是他们星盘中的两个位置。

Therefore, there's a sense in the person that those are two places in their chart.

这是他们生活中两个不同的地方，两种他们自己难以调和的欲望或驱动力。

Those are two places in their life, two different desires or drives that the person themselves finds it difficult to reconcile.

顶点行星某种程度上试图在两者之间进行调解。

The apex planet is somehow trying to mediate between the two.

因此，你可以开始看到T型相位中存在一种动态，它通过顶点行星将能量汇聚起来。

So, you can start to see how there's a dynamic with the T square which funnels the energy through the apex pattern, through the apex planet.

因为四分相源于数字四，可以追溯到毕达哥拉斯和特拉克图斯，即数字象征的意义。

Because the square comes from the number four and go all the way back to Pythagoras and the Tractus, the idea of number symbolism.

四代表显化和存在于现实世界中的数字。

And four is the number of manifestation and being in the real world.

而二则代表对立、二元性，以及被分裂成两个位置、两种独立的身份感。

So, there's a sense of and a two of course is about opposition and dichotomy and being split into two places, into two separate senses of identity.

T型相位中的顶点行星试图为这种对立找到一种解决方式。

And the apex planet in a T square attempts to find a resolution to that.

这是一种非常积极的寻求解决的过程，因为它将两个四分相的能量都汇聚到顶点行星中。

And it's a very active seeking of resolution because it's funneling two squares, just funneling the energy through two squares into the apex planet.

因此，这需要付出努力。

So, there's work involved in it.

天秤座三角形给人一种锤子敲打铁砧的感觉。

There's a sense of the T square being a bit like the hammer on the anvil.

这就像身处铁匠铺的高温中，努力锻造某件东西。

It's bit like being in the heat of the blacksmith shop trying craft something.

命盘中带有天秤座三角形的人，常常处于不断精进一组技能的持续过程中。

And people who have a T square in their chart are very often in this constant process of perfecting a set of skills.

正是这个顶点行星真正推动了行动。

And it's that apex planet that really drives the action.

正是这种不断努力的感觉，帮助化解了紧张，同时也利用了对立面带来的动态张力。

And it's that constant sense of working at it which helps to resolve the tension but also uses the dynamic of the tension of the opposition.

我认为，如果你拥有某种相位格局，这其实也适用于所有相位——可以思考一下，你年幼时周围的世界是什么样子。

I think it's interesting to think about if you have an aspect pattern, this is actually so of aspects too, to think about it in terms of what the world was like around you when you were young.

对于客户而言，如果我回溯到他们的童年时期，往往能发现这个人是如何将天秤座三角形或大十字中的行星，特别是那些困难相位的行星，与具体的人联系起来的。

Very often with a client, if I go back into childhood years, you can start to see how the person has identified the planets in the T square or in the Grand Cross particularly with the hard patterns.

他们已经将这些行星识别为属于某些人。

They've identified They've identified those planets as belonging to people.

所以他们在周围的世界中看到了这一点。

So they see that in the world around them.

这个T型相位可能表明，如果父母的婚姻和关系中存在动态张力，那么孩子的星图中就会出现对立。

This might the T-square might suggest if there's a dynamic tension going on in the parents' marriage and relationship, there's an opposition in the child's chart.

他们能在周围的世界中看到这种动态张力。

They can see dynamic tension in the world around them.

因此，他们开始将对立行星的能量投射到两位父母身上。

And so, they start to project the energy of the planets in opposition onto the two parents.

然后，孩子自己可能成为夹在中间的那一个，或者有一个兄弟姐妹扮演了顶点行星的角色。

And then maybe the child themselves becomes piggy in the middle or there's a sibling that acts out the apex planet.

作为孩子，开始去感知你周围世界中这个相位模式的动态表现。

Start to see as the child, you to that aspect pattern dynamically in the world around you.

然后，它就变成了现实。

And then it becomes the reality.

我的意思是，这显然是你的相位模式，反映了你作为一个人的本质，但同时也被你周围的现实世界不断强化。

I mean, it's obviously your aspect pattern so it's how you are as a person, but it's also reinforced in the real world around you.

所以这个T型格局甚至不一定涉及第七宫或金星，你可以开始看到它如何影响人际关系、职业关系、浪漫关系，以及这个人所做的一切事情。

So that T-square, it doesn't even have to involve the seventh house or Venus, you can start to see how that's going to be a dynamic in relationships, in professional relationships, in romantic relationships, in absolutely everything the person does.

这是一个巨大的驱动力。

It's a huge driver.

拥有T型格局的人往往充满活力，总是忙碌不停，从不让自己放松。

People with a T square tend to be dynamic, always working, never letting themselves off the hook.

总还有更多工作要做。

There's always more work to be done.

这尤其围绕着那个顶点行星。

It's particularly around that apex planet.

我必须把这件事做对。

I've got to get this right.

我还没完全达到目标。

I haven't quite got there yet.

这把剑还不够锋利。

The sword isn't quite sharp enough.

是的，我喜欢这个说法。

Yeah, I like that.

但至少在某种程度上，它存在被解决的可能，这种方式几乎带有一种乐观感，因为对冲本身有时会更加紧张，或导致这两颗行星之间的僵局。

But there is at least the potential for resolution for it in some way and there's almost a sense of optimism in that way since the opposition itself can sometimes be more tense or can lead to like a standstill between those two planets.

但通过刑相位，或许会存在某种潜在的出口。

But with the square perhaps there being some sort of outlet potentially.

绝对没错。

Absolutely, yes.

如果你的星盘中只有对冲，就会有一种事情无法得到解决的感觉。

If you just have an opposition in the chart, there's a sense that something doesn't get resolved.

会有一种感觉，似乎有些事情没有得到解决。

There's a feeling perhaps that something doesn't get resolved.

不过我认为，相位本身也有些特别之处。

Although I think also there's something about aspects.

所有相位，无论类型如何，某种程度上都在试图变成合相，它们都在试图自我解决。

All aspects no matter what kind they are in a sense of trying to become a conjunction, They're trying to resolve themselves.

一个单独的对冲相位，如果没有T型三角格局和顶点行星，会试图通过寻找活动或专业出口、技能来实现自我解决，这些方式有意识地、动态地、创造性地将这两个对立面结合起来。

An opposition by itself without the T square, without the apex planet is trying to resolve itself by finding activities or ways of being professional outlets skills which consciously and dynamically and creatively bring together those two opposing sides.

一种方法是进入其中一方，沉浸其中，汲取经验，然后再将这些经验带回另一方，在两者之间不断来回往复。

The idea of going into one side and feeding and being in that place and taking experience from that and then bringing it back into the other side, bringing the experience back to the other side and just oscillating between the two.

当你拥有一个T型三角格局时，顶点行星的存在可能会带来一种短暂的解决感。

When you've got a T square, you've got this apex planet that's really there can be a sense of resolution briefly I think.

这是一件做得很好的工作。

That was a job well done.

然后你就继续前进了。

And then you're off.

T型三角格局的人非常擅长设定目标。

T-square people are great goal setters.

总有更多事情要做。

There's always more to be done.

是的，我喜欢这个想法，因为这也源于硬相位的概念，那种张力有时会带来行动或生产力。

Yeah, I like that that idea just because that's something that comes from the idea of hard aspects as well as that tension sometimes leading to movement or leading to productivity.

我想，你解读这种方式的一个方面，或者你指出的一点是，如果你有一个紧密的T相位，那么理解这些行星之间的共同点就是解读它的关键之一。

And I guess one of the ways that you interpret this or one of the things that you point out is that if you have a close T square, part of your access point for interpreting it is understanding the commonality between those planets.

其中一个共同点是，它们都位于相同模式或四分相的星座中，对吧？

One of the commonalities is that they're all going to have the same modality or quadruplicity in terms of the signs that they're located in, right?

是的，完全正确。

Yeah, absolutely.

我的意思是，除非它们落在不同星座，否则你总会遇到一个白羊座T相位、金牛座T相位或双子座T相位。

I mean, unless it's out of sign, you're going to have a cardinal T square, a fixed T square or a mutable T square.

它们各自有不同的特质。

They all have their different flavors.

白羊座T相位通常最具动态性，给人一种始终处于持续运动中的感觉。

The cardinal tends to be the most dynamic as a sense of being always in constant motion.

而固定座T相位，固执的特质非常擅长坚持既定方向。

And the fixed T square, mean, fixity is very good at staying the course.

所以，更偏向于长期的目标和项目。

So, sort of long term goals and projects.

有一种感觉，个性是在经历高压情境的过程中塑造出来的。

And there's a sense that the personality is carved out of experiences of being put into maybe quite high pressure situations.

无论如何，拥有T相位的人在长期处于安逸、没有目标、没有成就可言的环境中，都不太可能感到快乐。

A person with a T square anyway, any kind of T square is unlikely to be happy in long term in situations where there's a great deal of ease and there's no goals to be set, there's no things to be achieved.

固定性是为了长远目标而存在的。

Fixity is there for the long haul.

因此，这种相位蕴含着极大的韧性。

So, there's a great deal of resilience bound up in that.

这几乎像一场消耗战。

It's almost like a war of attrition.

我就坐在这里，等着问题被解决。

I'm just going to sit here and wait until the problem has been solved.

而变动性T相位则有一种设定目标但总被拉向不同方向、难以真正专注于一件事的感觉。

And the mutable T-square, just Mutability has this sense of setting goals but never really always being taken in lots of different directions and never really settling on one thing.

因此，拥有变动性T相位的人有时会感到不满。

So, sometimes there be a sense of dissatisfaction with a mutable T square.

你希望某件事发生，但却不太清楚该如何去实现。

You want something to happen but you don't quite know how to go about doing it.

Mutable T-square 带有一种舞者的特质。

There's a kind of dancer quality to a mutable T square.

我认识一些拥有 Mutable T-square 的人，尤其是当金星和火星参与其中时，其中一位就是舞者，现在仍然是舞者。

And I have known people with a mutable T square who actually particularly when I know with Venus and Mars involved who was a dancer, who is a dancer.

她把轻盈灵活当作一种优势，同时又极具活力。

And she makes a virtue out of being light on her feet but being incredibly dynamic at the same time.

我正在翻找一些例子。

I'm going through and I'm trying to find some examples.

你有没有顺手能想到的 T-square 案例？

I don't know if you know of any offhand of T-squares.

我正在用 Solar Fire 搜索，其中一个出现的例子是戴安娜王妃，她有一个 T-square，涉及月亮与南交点合相，对立天王星，而这两者都与金星形成刑相，这在固定星座中相当有趣。

I'm just doing a search through solar fire and one of the ones that came up was Diana, Princess Diana had a T-square involving the Moon conjunct the south node opposing Uranus, and both of them are squaring Venus, which is kind of interesting in fixed signs.

我不知道你以前是否用过这个例子。

I don't know if that's one that you've used before as an example.

我已经很久没有用过戴安娜公主的星盘了。

I haven't used Princess Diana's chart for a long time.

我刚刚想到，前几天在英国的电视上播放了她的一个片段。

I was just thinking that they played a clip of her on the television the other day in The UK television.

那是她与马丁·巴希尔的访谈，她提到婚姻中有三个人，所以相当拥挤——我指的是卡米拉·帕克·鲍尔斯。

And it was the interview that she did with Martin Bashir where she was talking about the phrase she used was there were three people in this marriage so it was quite crowded I'm talking about Camilla Parker Bowles.

这个比喻对T型相位来说太棒了。

That's a great analogy for T-square.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

你可以从很多不同的层面来解读这个T型相位。

There's so many different levels on which you could interpret that T-square.

当然，其中一些是非常私密的，谈论戴安娜很难，因为她曾有占星师泄露了本不该公开的信息。

And of course, some of them will be incredibly private and it's difficult to talk about Diana because she had astrologers who talked about her shouldn't have.

他们向媒体透露了这些信息，但本不该这么做。

They went to the press but they shouldn't have.

那是与占星师和她之间发生的一些复杂历史的一部分。

That was part of the complicated history of some things that happened with astrologers and her.

而且确实曾经在占星界引起了一些反响，对吧？

And actually had some repercussions in the astrological community at one point, didn't it?

当然，没错。

Absolutely, yes.

所以，学院的文凭，你必须签署一份道德准则。

So the faculty's diploma, you have to sign a code of ethics.

据我所知，历史上只有两个人曾被撤销文凭。

And as far as I know the history, there's only ever been two people who've had their diploma taken away.

他们就是那两位因作为她的占星师而公开了关于戴安娜的私人信息的人。

And they were the two people who went public with their private knowledge of Diana because they were her astrologers.

所以，我认为谈论戴安娜很困难，但在月亮与天王星的对冲中，你能看到T型格局中的独立女性形象，看到她如何平衡这些角色，尤其是结合了南北交点轴。

So, it's difficult talking about Diana I think because But in the Moon Uranus opposition, you see the independent woman in that T square and you see her juggling those roles and particularly bringing in the nodal axis.

这其中还涉及平衡母亲角色与这位极其美丽的时尚偶像之间的关系。

There's something there about juggling the roles of mother but also this incredibly beautiful style icon.

也许她找到自己位置的一种方式，就是通过月亮在水瓶座与天王星相对，这或许反映了她在自己家中感到像个外人的体验。

Maybe one of the ways in which she managed to find her place and Moon in Aquarius opposite Uranus, there's something there perhaps about feeling like a stranger in your own home.

寻找一个可以安顿下来、安心做自己的地方，即使你的思维方式与众不同，或对生活有稍微不同的看法。

The search to find a place to rest and to feel comfortable about being different in the way that you think about things or having a slightly different take on life.

也许她解决这个问题的一些方式，首先是通过第六宫的事物。

And maybe some of the ways in which she resolved it was through, well, firstly through sixth house things.

她显然参与了许多以服务为导向的工作。

She was obviously involved in a lot of service orientated work.

而且非常擅长建立人际关系。

Very And good at creating relationships.

我刚刚想到，她是第一个在医院里公开拥抱一位艾滋病垂死患者的人。

And I was just thinking about when she was the first person to publicly put her arms around somebody who was dying of AIDS in a hospital.

这一举动彻底改变了人们对艾滋病和HIV的态度。

And it was a game changer in terms of attitudes towards AIDS and HIV.

所以，也许这其中蕴含着某种意义。

And so maybe there's something there.

但她也通过为自己打造一种极具独特风格的造型，展现出一种美丽的特质。

But also styling herself for somebody beautiful having this incredibly different kind of style.

她的穿着、举止以及作为女性的自我呈现方式，都与常人截然不同。

She was unlike the way she dressed and the way she acted, the way she presented herself as a woman.

她与任何人都不一样。

She was unlike anybody.

所以我认为她很好地运用了这个T型相位。

So I think she used that T square very well.

是的，这是个非常好的例子。

Yeah, that's a really good example.

这引发了一些关于相位模式本身的思考。

So it brings up a few points just about aspect patterns in general.

其中之一是，这往往是占星师们最先关注的事情之一，因为当相位非常精确、相差只有几度时，它往往是星盘中最先吸引你注意的特征。

One of them being that it's one of the first things that sometimes astrologers go to because it's one of the first things that will catch your eye in a chart especially if it's very close, if it's within a few degrees.

不同的占星师有不同的风格，但如果你在星盘中画出相位线，比如，你就会开始注意到这些模式浮现出来，从而自然吸引你的目光。

Mean, different astrologers have different styles, but if you draw aspect lines in your charts, for example, you're gonna start seeing these patterns pop out to you and that's therefore gonna draw your eye.

我上个月做的一个节目是关于如何解读星盘的第一步。

One of the episodes I did last month was first steps in interpreting a chart.

对于某些占星师来说，他们最先注意到的往往是星盘中的相位模式，因为当你刚开始看一个新的出生图时，这种模式会立刻吸引你的注意力。

And certainly for some astrologers, one of the first things that they will notice is if there is an aspect pattern in the chart just because it kind of draws your attention to it right away as soon as you start looking at a new nativity.

是的，完全正确。

Yeah, absolutely.

戴安娜的星盘中也有一个风筝相位。

Diana also has a kite in her chart.

我认为在你展示的版本中，没有显示凯龙星和海王星之间的三分相。

I think in version that you showed, it's not showing the trine between Chiron and Neptune.

但她星盘中包含了太阳和水星。

But she's got the Sun involved in there and also Mercury.

然后，星盘的两个主宰星，等等，是天蝎座上升吗？

Then the two rulers of the chart, Actually, is it Scorpio rising?

你最近怎么样？

How are you?

哦，不。

Oh, no.

是的，是射手座上升。

Yes, it's Sagittarius rising.

抱歉，我刚说的那部分删掉了。

So sorry to scrub what I just said.

有一个

There's a

在顶部有一个非常强大的火星与冥王星合相，我原本想用地雷来比喻。

very powerful Mars Pluto conjunction right up at the top there which I was thinking of work with landmines.

她曾为一个地雷慈善机构工作，非常勇敢。

She worked with a landmine charity and she was very brave.

在很多方面，都非常勇敢。

In many ways, was very brave.

我们知道，位于处女座的火星与冥王星合相具有一种赫菲斯托斯的特质，即伏尔甘神的象征，代表工艺，将某种东西转化为技艺。

And we know that Mars Pluto in Virgo has a kind of a hephaestus quality, Vulcan deity, the idea of craft, making a craft out of something.

但她非常勇敢，以她自己的方式极其坦率。

But she was incredibly brave, incredibly forthright in her own way.

还有风筝相位，我们稍后可以继续讨论，从三合相的角度延伸，再通过其中一个行星与另一个顶点形成对冲，火星与冥王星的动力正是风筝相位的核心。

And the kite pattern which we can come onto later picking up the idea of the grand trine and then this opposition from one of the planets through to again an apex that Mars Pluto dynamo is really of the kite pattern.

好的。

Okay.

所以她有。

So she has.

所以这个

So the

进入危险地带并克服困难的理念。

idea of going into dangerous places and overcoming.

对。

Right.

所以只是

So just

为了给听音频的人描述一下，她的太阳位于巨蟹座九度，与天王星位于天蝎座八度形成三分相。

to describe it, for people listening to the audio version, she has the Sun at nine degrees of Cancer and it's trine to Neptune at eight degrees of Scorpio.

而这两者都与冥王星位于处女座六度形成六分相，冥王星还与位于处女座一度的火星形成松散的合相。

And then both of them are sextile to Pluto at six degrees of Virgo, which is also loosely conjunct Mars at one degree of Virgo.

这两者都与位于双鱼座六度的凯龙星相对。

And both of those are opposing Chiron at six degrees of Pisces.

这在她的星盘中形成了风筝格局。

That creates the kite pattern in her chart.

是的，没错。

Yes, that's right.

没错。

That's right.

明白了。

Got it.

好的。

Okay.

另一个由此引发并让我意识到的基本原则是，当你拥有像她星盘中那样的紧密相位模式，比如T型三角时，这意味着这些度数会非常敏感，因此一旦有重大行运或任何行运影响到这些行星中的一个，有时会同时影响到所有行星。

And one of the other things this is bringing up and making me realize as just a basic principle is that when you have a really close aspect pattern such as a T square like she has in her chart, that also means that those degrees are gonna be really sensitive so that if you have a major transit or any transit that hits one of those planets, it's sometimes gonna hit all of them at the same time.

所以，这或许是理论层面解释为什么星盘模式如此重要的原因之一：每当通过某种时间技术动态作用于其中一个相位时，都会同时激活多个相位。

So that's one of the things perhaps just in terms of the theory that makes chart patterns really important is that it's activating multiple aspects at a time anytime one of them gets aspected dynamically through some sort of timing technique.

是的，完全正确。

Yeah, absolutely.

你不能孤立地看待任何一个行星。

You can't see any of the planets in isolation.

重要的是要把它们看作一个整体模式。

And it's important to see it as a whole pattern.

而且，如果是一个缓慢移动的行星，比如海王星或冥王星，这一连串的行运可能需要好几年。

And sometimes if it's a slow moving planet like Neptune or Pluto, the string of transits can take several years.

所以你看，戴安娜的月亮与天王星形成对冲，并且与金星成四分相，行运会先影响到天王星，因为它位于狮子座。

So, see here with Diana's Moon Uranus opposition square to Venus, a transit is going to hit that Uranus first because it's at of Leo.

然后会影响到金星，它位于金牛座，接着影响到位于水瓶座的月亮，最后影响到位于28度的南北交点轴。

And then it's going to hit Venus which is at of Taurus and it's going to hit the Moon at of Aquarius and then it's going to hit the nodal axis at 28.

所以，围绕这个T相位的所有相位都会产生一系列影响。

So, there's a whole outworking and all of the transits to that T square.

你必须把整个过程看作一个完整的整体。

And you've got to see the whole thing as a complete process.

我想不起任何具体的时间点了。

I can't remember any of the times.

我想不起她在关键时期的具体相位，也不记得那时T相位是否被激活了。

I can't remember her transits at key times and whether that T square was being activated.

但任何正在听的人，如果你有T相位，绝对不要孤立地看待它。

But anybody listening who's got a T square, yes, absolutely don't see it in isolation.

有时候，这个过程可能需要好几年。

And sometimes it can take several years.

当一次相位触发了T相位时，那是一次改变人生的经历，绝对是一次改变人生的经历。

And it's a life changing experience to have a transit that picks up a T square, absolutely a life changing experience.

是的，我能想象。

Yeah, I'm imagining.

我不熟悉她的行运历史，但我可以想象，如果土星运行到金牛座并在此处逆行，她不仅会经历土星与金星的合相——这本身就有其特定的含义，同时还会经历土星与月亮的刑相——这本身也是一个重要的行运，以及土星与天王星的刑相。

I'm not familiar with her transit history, but I'm imagining if Saturn came to of Taurus and let's say station retrograde around there, she would not just be having transiting Saturn conjunct Venus which would have its own delineation, but also simultaneously she'd be having a transit of transiting Saturn squaring her Moon which is its own sort of important transit and also transiting Saturn squaring her Uranus.

所以，这相当于三个行运即使单独来看都会同时被激活，而它们真正的作用还在于激活了彼此之间的相位，比如月亮与天王星的对冲、金星与天王星的刑相等等。

So that's like three transits that even just in isolation all get activated at once except what they're doing is also activating the aspects between them like the Moon Uranus opposition and the Venus Uranus square and so on and so forth.

是的，完全正确。

Yeah, absolutely.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

所以这几乎又回到了你最初提到的谐波概念，也正是这个概念最初让你对占星与音乐产生兴趣，这让我联想到风铃。

So that almost ties it back to the idea of harmonics that you started with and that you first interested you as your recurring interest in astrology and music is this reminds me of how wind chimes.

比如，如果你有三个风铃，当你用某物扫过它们时，每个风铃会因被击打的时机、顺序、长度等因素发出不同的音调。

For example, if you have like three chimes and you run something across all three of them, they have different tones depending on, you know, when you hit them and and what the order is and and their length and everything else.

某种程度上，这就像那样，只不过如果时间非常接近，所有风铃都会被同时击中，并以特定的音调共振共鸣。

And it's kind of like that in a way except if it's really close, they're all going to get hit and they're gonna resonate in that specific tone all sort of at the same time.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

是的，完全正确。

Absolutely.

我的意思是，这个比喻太棒了。

I mean, that's a wonderful analogy.

这很好地形容了正在发生的事情。

It's a wonderful metaphor for what is happening.

而且在另一个层面上，还能看到一个T型相位。

And also on another level, can see a T-square.

开普勒曾深入研究过音乐、数学与相位之间的关系。

Kepler did this whole piece with music and mathematics and aspects.

如果你对谐波作为占星技术感兴趣，当然，我得承认，我对谐波图的历史并不太清楚。

And if you're into harmonics as an astrological technique, and of course that started to really land in I don't really know the history of harmonic charts, I have to confess.

但我知道英国占星师约翰·阿迪曾研究过这些。

But I know that John Adi, British astrologer was working with them.

他持有一种新柏拉图主义的视角。

He was coming from this sort of Neo Platonic perspective.

开普勒等人的研究非常关注谐波。

The work of Kepler and so on is very interested in harmonics.

然后我们还有大卫·汉布林等人在谐波方面的研究。

And then we have the work of David Hamblin and so on working in harmonics.

谐波图非常有趣，因为它们显然运用数字来创建一个与该特定数字产生共鸣的衍生图表。

Harmonic charts are very interesting because they're of course taking number and using that to create a spinoff chart which resonates to that particular number.

但我注意到，由于相位模式是基于数字的。

But I've noticed with aspect patterns because they are based in number.

因此，你在这里看到的是对冲和四分相中的数字二和四。

So here you have the idea of two and four in the opposition and the squares two and four.

因此，你可以把星盘看作是我们所唱的歌曲。

And so you can think about the chart as being the song that we sing.

这听起来有点天马行空，但我并不是在开玩笑。

And that sounds a bit whimsical, but I don't mean it in a whimsical sense.

它与音乐性、音乐和谐波系列有着非常直接的联系。

It has this very direct connection to musicality, to music, to the harmonic series.

所以，如果你把星盘中的数字提取出来，真的能据此创作出一首歌，那么你不仅能形成一种物理模式，还能创造出一首歌曲。

So if you were to take the numbers in the chart and you could actually create a song out of it, you could create not only a physical pattern out of it but also a song out of it.

而T型相位这种‘歌曲’并不是叮当作响的风铃，它显然更复杂一些。

And a T square type of song isn't a tinkly wind chime, it's obviously something a little bit more.

它更像是管弦乐队后方巴松管发出的宏大轰鸣，或者某种首次苏醒的力量。

It's the bassoons at the back of the orchestra sort of big roar or it's something coming alive perhaps for the first time.

T型相位的能量有时会处于休眠状态，因为我们太害怕去触碰它。

T square material sometimes lies dormant because we're too afraid to do something with it.

如果你小时候被允许活泼好动，而你的火星正好位于T型相位的顶点，那真是太好了。

You've been allowed to be boisterous as a child, you've got Mars at the apex of a T square, if you've been allowed to be boisterous as a child, fantastic.

如果你没有被允许这样，那么当天王星行运至火星顶点时，就会像点燃了火药引信一样——赶紧躲远点。

If you haven't, you end up having say Uranus transit to that Mars apex, light blue touch paper and stand well back.

其实并没有什么固定的公式可以描述这些现象。

There's no formula really for describing these things.

你只能去感受你所看到的东西。

You have to just connect to what you see.

你与你所见的连接。

You connect to what you see.

是的。

Yeah.

这是一种行星同时被激活的序列。

And it's something that sequence of the planets getting activated at the same time.

这是一种人会在不同层次上体验到的事情，并且在整个生命中反复经历这种在不同层次上的激活。

It's something that a person's going to experience on different levels and just have repeated experiences of having that activated on different levels throughout their entire life.

因为例如，每个月当月亮在星盘中运行时，它都会触及那个T相位，每月激活一次这种相位模式。

Because for example, once a month when the Moon moves around the chart, it's going to, for example, hit that T square and activate that aspect pattern once a month.

水星、太阳也会做同样的事，每年一次；金星也类似，火星大约每两年半一次，木星每十二年一次，而土星则在三十年间以同样的方式形成对这一模式的相位。

And Mercury will do the same or the Sun will do the same once a year and Venus somewhat similar and then Mars will do the same thing every two and a half years and Jupiter every twelve years and Saturn over the course of thirty years will aspect that pattern in the same way.

因此，这也可能与音乐或声音的类比有关，不仅在于音符被弹奏的顺序，还在于这些音符在你生命中的哪些时刻被触发，以及触发的持续时间——例如，月亮的过境比土星的过境要快得多。

So that's probably also connected in terms of that music or sound analogy just in terms of the order in which the notes are hit, but also the duration of at what points in your life are those notes going to be hit and how long of a duration is it since a Moon transit will be much quicker than a Saturn transit, let's say.

是的，完全正确。

Yes, absolutely.

当然，月亮通过无意识、习惯和对周围世界的本能反应，将一切呈现在我们面前。

And of course, the Moon sees everything or brings everything to us through the lens of the unconscious through habit, through knee jerk response to the world around us.

因此，你可以看到，这种每月一次的持续循环，会不断强化我们对天秤座四分相的反应方式，让我们觉得世界就是这样，而我也必须如此与世界相处。

So, you can see that in that continual circuiting once every month, it becomes our response according to the T square, our sense of that's how the world is and that's how I have to be in the world becomes reinforced again and again.

正如你所说，这种强化还通过水星、太阳、金星和火星不断发生。

And it's reinforced as you say through Mercury, through the Sun, through Venus, through Mars.

我们几乎每周、每年的每一天都身处必须通过天秤座四分相做出反应的情境中。

We're in situations where we have to respond through our T square almost every day of the week, every week of the year.

所以，不仅仅是那些一生中才出现一次的大相位，才会激活这个天秤座四分相。

So, it's not just these bigger transits that happens once in a lifetime that are going to bring that T square alive.

它一直在被持续激活。

It's continually being activated.

因此，它真正地融入了我们的本性，成为我们对世界认知以及在特定情境下应如何反应的固有部分。

So, it really is embedded as part of our makeup and our sense of how the world is and how we're expected to respond in a given set of circumstances.

没错。

Right.

所以这是我们第一个相位模式。

So that's our first aspect pattern.

这就是T型相位。

That's the T-square.

还有一个与之非常相似的第二个相位模式，那就是大十字，基本上是一样的，只是在对冲顶点的另一侧再增加一个点，这样你就有了两个相互对冲的行星，并且它们彼此重叠。

There's a second aspect pattern that is very similar to that which would be the grand square which would be basically the same thing but when you add one more additional point on the opposition of the apex so that you have two planets in opposition and they're overlapping.

是的，没错。

Yes, that's right.

所以，大十字本质上正如你所预期的那样。

So essentially, a Grand Cross is just exactly as you would expect it to be.

它由两组对冲构成，而这四个行星之间又彼此形成刑相位。

It's two oppositions and then each of those planets, those four planets is connected to each other by squares.

让我看看我有没有可以分享的图片。

Let me see if I have an image I can share.

看起来我没有单独的图片。

It looks like I don't have an individual one.