占星术与健康，由基拉·萨瑟兰主讲

所以，无论问题表现为哪种形式，我们都会给予相似的东西，因为这是基于能量相互匹配的理念。

So whatever the problem is manifesting as we give something similar, because it's the idea that the energies match each other.

如果我们把健康比作一个钟摆，正常健康状态在中间，而疾病使它偏向一侧，用对抗疗法就是直接把它往相反方向推回去，而用相似疗法则是稍微加剧你现有的状况，让它摆到极致后自然回摆回来。

If if we were talking about health like a pendulum, and it swung up this way, whereas this is regular health, The ailment swung you here treating by antipathy is just shoving something back in the opposite direction, whereas sympathy is almost stoking the fire of what you have to kind of swing it up and then it releases itself and swings back down.

希望这能说得明白。

Hope that made sense.

比如，如果有人发烧，得了感冒或流感，出现发热、出汗等症状，我们会让他们泡一个加入泻盐的热水澡。

Like if somebody has a fever, you know, they have a cold or a flu and they've got fever and hot and sweats, we will put them in a hot bath with Epsom salts.

我们还会给他们服用能促进排汗的草药，有时会选用由火星主宰的草药来加强排汗效果，因为我们知道病毒和细菌在一定温度以上无法存活。

And we will give them herbs that also make them sweat, we'll give them herbs that are sometimes ruled by Mars to bring out more sweating because we know that viruses and bacterias can't survive above a certain temperature.

不过，我们不会对小孩这么做，因为儿童的体温调节非常危险。

So again, we wouldn't do this with a little kid because fever regulation is very dangerous.

但对于成年人来说，如果发烧并不算过高，你实际上可以通过草药或热水浴来加剧发热，再让他们盖上厚厚的被子躺在床上，帮助他们发汗排毒。

But in an adult, that's not an outrageous fever, you actually stoke the fire of the fever herbally or with, you know, putting them in a hot bath and then shoving them under a bunch of covers in bed to kind of sweat it out.

通过加剧这个‘火势’，最终带来缓解。

You stoke this fire to then bring relief.

所以我们实际上两种都会用。

So we actually do both.

有时候很难解释你为什么偏偏选择某一种。

And it's it's hard to explain sometimes why you even pick.

我是该用对立的方法，还是相似的方法呢？

Or am I going to go by opposites or similars?

我得承认，有时候我会组合一些疗法，然后作为从业者，我纯粹凭经验配药，完全没用占星术。

And I and I have to admit, sometimes I put together treatments and then I look at I put together treatments without using astrology just as a practitioner.

然后我再回头分析，哦，原来我是用的顺势疗法还是逆势疗法？通常情况下，我发现我经常两者都用。

And then I backtrack and I go, Oh, okay, was I working sympathetically or and or and within typically and it turns out I do both a lot.

是的，这说得通。

Yeah, that makes sense.

就比如，有时候你需要加速某个过程，才能更快地度过难关。

Just in terms of like, sometimes you need to accelerate something or accelerate the process of doing something in order to get over or get through it.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yeah.

有时候，就像我对客户说的，当一颗行星给你带来困扰——无论是你命盘中的行星还是当前的行运——那个领域往往是在呼唤你去关注。

And sometimes, you know, like I say to my clients, when a planet's causing you trouble, be it your natal planet or transit, sometimes that area is asking to be heard.

我可能以前跟你说过，克里斯，但这就像是你星盘里那个坐在教室后排的调皮孩子，它在闹脾气，是因为它希望你去留意那个部分。

It's it's like, you might have heard me say this prior, Chris, but it's like the naughty click kid in the back of the class part of your chart is acting out because it wants you to go focus on that area.

所以它会引发某种不适，通常是通过行运体现，但确实出现了问题。

So it causes an ailment, you know, probably by transit, but there's an issue happening.

于是你去关注它，给予它一些关爱或注意力，而我常常会使用相似法则，因为再次强调，你是在让它感到被听见、被看见，而这通常能释放那股能量。

So you go and pay attention to it and give it some love or focus and, and often I'll work by similars then, because again, you're, you're making it feel heard and seen, and that often releases that energy.

明白了。

Got it.

好的。

Okay.

我们来想想，已经讨论过一些土星相关的不适，也谈到了一些火星相关的问题，因为火星在第一宫的配置可能会出现。

Let's see, we've talked about some Saturn ailments and we've talked about some Mars things because it can come up with like Mars first house placements.

那都是意外。

That was all accidents.

提到过一个朋友，他的土星在第一宫，患有贫血，总是出现怕冷、缓慢或慢性的问题。

Mentioned the one friend that had Saturn in the first house and was anemic and had issues with just cold or slow things or chronic things.

我还有另一个朋友，火星在第一宫，总是撞到东西，经常弄出小伤口、淤青和烧伤之类的，这种星座特质的显现方式真是经典得让人觉得好笑。

Then I had another friend with Mars in the first house that would constantly bump into things and get small cuts and bruises and burns and things like that, which is always very funny how classic the manifestation of a placement can be.

医学占星学太明显了。

Medical astrology is so obvious.

简直像卡通一样荒谬。

It's almost like caricature ridiculous.

是的，完全正确。

Yes, absolutely.

你知道吗，去年我不幸地每年都做很多运动，对吧？

You know, last year on a sadly, I do a lot of sport every year, right?

当我处于火星周期的时候。

When I'm having my Mars.

嗯，每两年当我经历火星回归时。

Well, every two years when I'm having my Mars return.

去年，就在火星回归的前一天，我拉伤了一块肌肉。

And last year, I managed to tear a muscle the day before a Mars return.

简直太荒谬了。

Was like, it was ridiculous.

这是一个非常简单的意外，你知道的，我这辈子已经重复做过这个动作几千次了，但这次就是出了问题，结果我的小腿肌肉撕裂了。

And a really simple accident that, you know, I've done this thing repetitively thousands of times in my life, and I just something went wrong and off I tore one of my calf muscles.

对。

Right.

确实很明显，尤其是火星和土星，它们的表现特别明显。

It is that obvious, you know, especially Mars Saturn, they're really obvious.

还有，回到你那个有缺铁或贫血的朋友，火星掌管铁元素。

And also to go back to your friend that has iron deficiency or anemia, Mars rules iron.

对于那些还不知道的人，我相信大家都知道，但我只是想提醒一下大家。

For those of you who don't, I'm sure everybody knows, but I just wanted to remind everybody.

所以，我会收集那些第八宫的人的星盘，第八宫被认为与遗传疾病或基因有关。

So like, I collect charts of people who so the eighth house is considered your inherited ailments or genetics DNA.

它同时也是手术之宫。

And it's into and it's also the house of surgery.

通常，当火星经过人们的第八宫时，他们往往会遭遇紧急手术之类的情况。

Often, like by transit, people have Mars going through their eighth when they ended up with emergency surgery and things like that.

火星传统上也掌管外科医生的手术刀，因为它代表铁，代表切割。

Mars was also traditionally rules the surgeon's knife, it's iron, it's cutting.

但我收集的是那些患有遗传性疾病血色病的人的星盘。

And but I collect charts of people that have the genetic disorder called hemochromatosis.

血色病是遗传性的，并不总会在所有人身上发作，但当这个基因被激活时，就会吸收比正常更多的铁质，来自你吃的食物。

And hemochromatosis is, it's inherited and it doesn't always activate in people, But it's when the gene turns itself on, start absorbing more iron out of the foods you're eating than you should.

铁对身体来说其实是有毒的。

Now iron is really toxic to the body.

实际上，如果你从动物性食物中摄取铁，你只吸收大约20%到22%的铁。

And we actually only absorb about if you're eating animal sources of iron, you only absorb about 20 to 22% of the iron you eat.

如果你只吃植物性食物，你只能吸收大约8%到12%。

If you're eating only vegetable sources, you only absorb about eight to 12%.

血色沉着病会激活，你会开始吸收大量铁质——我甚至不知道具体百分比，但肯定高得多。

Hemochromatosis activates and you start absorbing, I don't even know the percentage, but it's a lot higher.

血液中含铁量过高是非常危险的。

It's dangerous to have too much iron running around your blood.

你的身体并不需要这么多铁。

Your body doesn't want that.

于是身体会把多余的铁排到器官里，铁含量过高的器官就会开始氧化。

So it dumps it into organs and organs with too much iron start oxidizing.

它们 literally 开始生锈，肝脏和心脏是最常见的受影响部位。

They literally start rusting and it will go to the liver and the heart are really common places.

如果不治疗，这种情况非常危险。

It's very dangerous if you don't treat it.

治疗方式就是直接放血。

The treatment for it is literally to bleed people.

这是一种古老的放血疗法，我们通过从人体内抽取血液，直到体内的铁储备下降，因为那时身体会制造更多不含铁的新血液。

It's one of the, you know, if you think of old bloodletting, actually is the treatment as we extract blood out of people's bodies until their iron stores drop because then the body's making more iron, more blood that doesn't have iron in it yet.

好的。

Okay.

抱歉，刚才的解释太长了。

And sorry, that was a very long explanation.

这真是个有趣的冷知识。

That's funny bit of trivia.

我以前不知道是这样，但这么说来，治疗方式就说得通了。

I didn't know that that was the case, but that makes sense in terms of how they treat that.

是的。

Yeah.

另外，如果他们摄入富含铁的食物，就让他们多吃一些单宁含量很高的相反食物。

Also get them if they're having iron rich foods, get them to have opposite things that are really high in tannins.

这就像是火星对抗土星，通过摄入收敛性食物或草药来结合铁，这也是一种治疗方法。

This is where you're going Mars against Saturn, you're going with astringent foods or herbs to bind the iron is actually the treatment as well.

所以，比如让某人喝黑茶或绿茶，茶多酚会与你想要吸收的铁结合。

So, like get somebody to drink black tea or green tea, which the tannins will bind to the iron you want to absorb as much.

在我找到的大多数星盘中，火星都位于第八宫。

With the majority of the charts that I've located, they have Mars in the eighth natally.

好的。

Okay.

这看起来非常有趣，甚至有点滑稽。

Which is really interesting to look and it like seems comical.

我的意思是，所有血色沉着病患者星盘中都会有这种情况，但看看他们的火星——无论是在第八宫，还是以某种方式刑克第八宫，或是命主星——确实很有趣。

I mean, everybody with hemochromatosis is going to have that in their chart, but it's really it's interesting to look at what's going on with their Mars, be it in the eighth or aspecting the eighth in some way or chart ruler and yeah.

所以，占星术有时候显然太明显了。

So it's It's obviously astrology is so obvious sometimes.

对。

Right.

有趣的是，占星师有时会过度思考，觉得事情会更复杂、更隐晦，但其实有时候表现形式就摆在你面前，简单直接得超乎你的预期。

And that's a funny thing where sometimes astrologers can like overthink it and think that things are going to be more complicated or more obscure than it is when sometimes it's actually the manifestation is just sitting, staring right in front of you or it ends up being much more simple and straightforward than you almost even anticipate.

总是。

Always.

并不总是，但经常如此。

Not always, but often.

在研究医学占星学和阅读的过程中，我认为我几乎读过所有关于医学占星学的书籍。

And, you know, in studying medical astrology and reading, I I think I've literally read every book that exists on medical astrology.

你知道，有本命医学占星学。

You know, there's natal medical astrology.

还有观察行运、进展，或者有些人使用太阳弧线。

There's looking at transits, progressions, or if people use solar arcs.

还有研究完美相位，以及用卜卦占星看温度图。

There's looking at perfections, there's looking at horary to temperature charts.

但人们也会看太阳回归图，以获取一年的总体印记。

But then people will also, you can look at a solar return chart for kind of an imprint for the year.

在印度占星中，他们非常关注月亮周期。

In Joytish, they look at moon cycles a lot.

我最近经常研究这个，但人们还会去看中点。

I've played with that a lot lately, but people will then go to midpoints.

人们会去关注各种非常细微的相位。

People will go to all kinds of really small aspects.

我理解这一点，也不反对，你知道的，每个人都会用自己觉得有效的方法。

And I get that and I'm not disagreeing with, you know, everybody does what works for them.

但我通常不需要去查看这些额外的东西。

But I often don't have to go to those extra things to look at.

对我来说，当人们因为健康问题来找我时，有95%的时间，我都能在本命盘、行运和推进中找到原因。

To me, ninety five percent of the time when people show up health wise, I can locate it within natal transits progressions.

如果我需要，我会去看卜卦盘。

And if I have to go to Horary, I will look at that.

但我实际上并不像其他许多医学占星师那样经常使用太阳回归盘。

But I actually don't even do to come pictures as often as a lot of other medical astrologers.

也许我只是运气好，而且我还有不少医学方面的教育背景，所以能迅速抓住重点。

And it might be that I'm just lucky that I've also had a lot of medical, you know, education so I can get down to it.

这完全取决于你有多少层因素。

Really depends how many layers you have.

是的，我知道一些其他医学占星师对中点着迷，也许我这样做反而亏待了自己，没有足够关注这些中点。

Yeah, I know other medical astrologers that are obsessed with midpoints and I might be doing myself a disservice and not looking at those enough.

但对我来说，这通常太明显了。

But to me, it often is just so obvious.

对。

Yeah.

是的，这对我来说很有道理。

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me.

让我们看看，我们已经讨论过上升点及其守护星。

Let's see, we've talked about the Ascendant and its ruler.

我们还稍微谈到了第六宫，也许我们可以更多地聚焦在第六宫而不是第十二宫。

We've talked a little bit about the sixth house and maybe that's something we could focus on more is like the sixth than the twelfth.

或者你认为两者之间有区别？你看到的差异是什么？

Or do you see like a distinction or what sort of distinction do you see between the two?

哦，第六宫和第十二宫。

Oh, the sixth and the twelfth.

是的。

Yeah.

第六宫传统上是疾病宫和服务宫。

So sixth house traditionally, house of illness, house of service.

有些人会同意或不同意，但第六宫确实是一个需要努力付出的宫位。

Some people will agree with this or not, but, you know, the sixth house is a house of hard work.

对吧？

Right?

他们觉得这并不是一个轻松的宫位。

They're like, that it's not an easy house.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但也许这是我将自然疗法的理念融入其中了，我确实认为第六宫也是我们可以通过努力来维护身体健康、减轻疾病影响的宫位。

But as and maybe this is me overlapping my naturopathy to it, but I really see the sixth house as also the house where we can do the hard work for our physical body to try to prevent too much impact from that sixth house, you know, of illness.

有些人不喜欢我这么说，但我实话讲，我就是这么用的。

So some people don't like that I say that, but I will be honest, I use it that way.

我觉得这其实是自然形成的，我并不认为自己违背了任何规则，但确实就像我们之前聊过的那样。

And I think it's come about, I don't really think I'm breaking any rules, but I it's really come about that it's it's, you know, is it's like we talked about earlier.

健康真是件极其辛苦的事，而且需要每天坚持。

Health is freaking hard work and it's daily.

它必须成为一种仪式或日常习惯。

It's your it's it has to be a ritual or routine.

所以，是的，我总是会看第六宫，因为它除了第一宫之外，是引发大部分大问题的根源。

And so, yes, I'm always gonna look at the six for causing most of the big problems besides the first house.

但当出现问题时，我也一定会去第六宫，想办法强化它。

But I'm also gonna look at the six to if there's gonna be a problem, then I gotta go there to fortify it.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得我们在医学占星中对第六宫太害怕了，总觉得所有艰难的事情都会在那里发生。

I think think we get so scared in medical astrology with the six houses where all this hard stuff's going to happen.

对我来说，这就意味着你需要在那个领域付出努力。

And to me, well, then that's calling you to do work there.

它在召唤你，别逃避那个领域。

It's calling you to, you know, not run away from that area.

你需要去支持它。

You need to support it.

所以我确实会关注第六宫，比如第六宫的宫头、第六宫的守护星，这些对于健康问题的诱因行星来说都非常重要，你知道吗？大多数来找我的客户都有第六宫的行星聚集。

So I do look at the six, you know, the cusp of the six, the ruler of the six, very important for health ailment triggers planets, you know, most of the clients showing up to see me have have like lovely, not lovely, but stelliums in the sixth.

这就是他们最终会来找一位医疗占星师的原因。

And it's why they end up in a medical astrologer.

第六宫被认为是急性病症出现的地方。

So sixth house is considered where you have acute ailments.

不过我真的觉得，更好的表达方式应该是。

Although I really think it's it's it's more a better wording would be.

这是你每天都要面对的健康问题。

It's the health stuff you have to deal with every day.

而其中很多会变成慢性长期的问题。

And a lot of that becomes chronic long term.

急性病症在医学上被认为是正在发生的状况。

Acute medically is considered, you know, happening right now.

所以真正的急性病通常只持续一个月，但在其他医学文献中，可能会给到一年。

So that's, you know, true acute is only a month long, but in other medical texts, they'll give it a year.

一年之后，就变成慢性病了。

And after a year, it becomes chronic.

然后我们转向第十二宫。

And then we dash over to the twelfth house.

第十二宫传统上代表医院、机构等，如今实际上更多指慢性病症。

So the twelfth house, which was traditionally hospitals, institutions, all of that, the twelfth house really has become chronic ailments.

是的。

Yeah.

以及那些对我们来说有点隐蔽的事物。

And things that are a bit hidden from us.

对吧？

Right?

那些我们一时搞不清楚的事情，你知道的，这就是慢性病。

Things that we can't quite figure out, you know, and that's what a chronic ailment is.

我们不知道该怎么解决它。

We can't figure out how to fix it.

有道理。

Makes sense.

是的，当然。

Yeah, for sure.

那些持续存在的问题，或者难以捉摸、难以把握、难以找到解决方法的问题。

Those things that are persistent or things that can be obscure and hard to get a handle on or hard to figure out how to address.

是的，非常，你知道的，它很捉摸不定。

Yes, very, know, it's elusive.

你刚开始应对它，它却会转变成别的东西。

You can start to address it and then it kind of shifts and changes into something else.

因此，这是一种持续的调整，这一点来自詹斯基，他是一位已故的医学占星家，上世纪80年代去世，他提到，真正艰难的工作在于第六宫到第十二宫。

And so there's this constant adjustment and, you know, the way and this comes from Jansky, who was a astrologer who passed medical astrologer who passed away in the 80s, he talks about, you know, the hard work is in the sixth, that chronic to the twelfth.

但他强调，如果你忽视第六宫，忽视第六宫中的健康问题，它们最终会把你拖入第十二宫，对吧？

But he's he very much talks about if you ignore your sixth house, if you ignore your, your ailments in the sixth, they're going to land you in the twelfth, right?

因为如果你不在日常生活中处理这些问题，它们就会演变成慢性问题。

Because if you don't deal with it in the daily, you will end up with it chronic.

我不太喜欢这个观点，因为它关联着健康恶化，但第六宫和第十二宫确实构成了健康问题的核心轴线，我们必须正视它们。

And I love I don't love that idea because it's bad health, but that six twelve is a real axis of ailments and things we really have to deal with.

同样，如果命盘中原本没有行星落在那里，仅靠行运也会引发问题。

Again, by transit, if if there's nothing sitting there natally.

明白了。

Okay.

这很有道理。

That makes sense.

而且在某些方面，这也回溯到古典占星中将黄道十二宫或星座与身体各部位相对应的观念。

And with some of this, it also goes back towards tied into some of the classical ideas of assigning even something as simple as like zodiac parts or signs to each of the parts of the body.

有时候，这会以非常直接的方式体现出来，对吧？

And sometimes that can come into play in very literal ways, think, right?

当然了。

Oh, absolutely.

这就是我们看到交叉的地方，你知道，大家都说不要用千篇一律的方式做占星，星座不等于行星，行星不等于宫位。

And this is where we have this crossover, you know, everyone talks about don't do cookie cutter astrology and, you know, sign is not planet is not house.

但在医学占星中，这种交叉非常显著。

But in medical astrology, there is a great, great crossover.

所以，很多第一宫的问题与白羊座的问题类似，或者与火星的问题类似，也就是传统的守护星。

So a lot of first house issues are similar to Aries issues or similar to Mars issue, you know, the traditional rulers.

而且，确实，第十二宫就是免疫系统，也是脚部。

And yeah, literally the twelfth house is the immune system and it's the feet.

我们还会谈到淋巴系统，那些了解的人知道，它有点像你的废物收集系统，但它也是免疫系统的一部分，而且在医学占星中，很多事情都如此直接。

And we also talk about the lymphatics and your lymphatics, those that know it's kind of like your junk collecting system, but it's part of your immune system and and yeah, things are things are so literal in medical astrology.

这简直有点可笑。

It's almost it is it's comical.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yep.

而且是

And Did

你提到这个的时候，有想到什么例子吗？

you have an example you were thinking of when you brought that up?

什么例子？

Example of what?

哦，当你谈到身体部位的对应关系时，比如头部对应第一宫，喉咙对应第二宫。

Oh, when you were talking about the literal body parts, you know, like head to to the first house, throat to the second.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我偶尔见过一些困难的星盘配置落在身体的特定部位，出现与之相关的具体损伤，比如火星落在双鱼座第六宫，当受到火星相位激活时，有人就会伤到脚之类的。

I mean, I've just seen occasionally there's a difficult placement and it's in a specific sign of the body, having a specific injury that relates to that, like having a Mars in Pisces in the sixth house or something like that, having that get activated by a Mars transit and somebody injuring a foot or something like that.

这看起来确实有时非常字面、非常直接。

Which seems, yeah, it's just very literal and very straightforward sometimes.

这几乎太明显了。

It's almost so obvious.

你会觉得，这简直就像个笑话，竟然能这么字面。

You're like, this is it almost feels like a joke how literal it can be.

但再说一遍，这就是医疗占星术。

But again, that's medical astrology.

我们可以回溯到古埃及人将身体部位对应到星座的做法。

And, you know, we can go back to the Egyptians placing body parts to signs.

甚至可能比那还要更早。

And probably even further back than that.

但历史部分我就留给你来谈了。

But I will leave the history to you.

是的，这真的很惊人。

Yeah, it's it's amazing.

你知道吗，我可能有很多行星落在白羊座，而我身上有七处缝合伤口。

You know, I may or may not have a lot of planets in the sign of Aries, and I have seven sets of stitches in my body.

其中六处都在头上。

Six of them are in my head.

哇。

Wow.

好吧。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

就是这么字面意思。

Like, it's that literal.

是的，它确实能给你一些很好的提示，比如回到上升点、太阳和月亮这些地方，你知道的，如果你没有的话，这些地方就是需要加强的，而我特别喜欢用医学占星术的一种方式，你知道，历史上医学占星术更多是用于诊断，因为我们当时没有X光、核磁共振和血液检测这些东西。

Yeah, it's and it's, you know, it just gives you those great hints as to where to support going back to that ascendant, the sun and the moon, you know, places to fortify if you don't, you know, and one of the ways I love using medical astrology, you know, medical astrology was used a lot more kind of for diagnosis if we go back in history, because we didn't have x rays and MRIs and blood tests and all these things.

而相比之下，在现代，它更多被用来帮助调理身体。

And whereas more in modern times, it can be used a lot more for how to support the body.

我认为，知道在哪里可以支持一个人，而不是简单地认为‘这就是问题所在’，这是一个非常美好的关键。

And I think that's a beautiful key to know where we can support someone rather than just go, oh, this is the problem.

对吧？

Right?

我很喜欢我们拥有帮助自己的能力。

I love that we have that ability to help ourselves.

是的，当然。

Yeah, for sure.

这种诊断功能就像是在十二世纪，你没有X光机，但有一个通过这种富有象征意义的系统提供洞察力的工具，那么你当然会用它来诊断，试图弄清楚发生了什么。

That diagnostic function, it's like if it's the twelfth century and you don't have an X-ray machine and you have this thing that can give you some insight into what's going on through this interesting symbolic system, then it's like, yeah, you use that to diagnose and try to figure out what's going on.

是的。

Yeah.

我最喜欢医学占星术的一点是，当问题不那么明显时，比如我们之前谈到的在双鱼座受伤的情况，人们出现症状时，我们也能分辨出究竟是哪个系统在真正地制造问题。

And one of the one of the things I love about medical astrology is like someone can show up with something like we can also discern which system is really pulling, is creating a problem when it's not so obvious, like we were talking about before injuring your foot in Pisces and things like that.

但人们经常会带着过敏症状来，对吧？

But like people show up with allergies, right?

比如食物，我们来谈谈食物不耐受，对吧？

So like food, let's talk about food sensitivities, right?

人们在吃某些食物时，并不会出现过敏性休克，但确实存在真正的食物不耐受。

People are eating foods, not an anaphylaxis, but like an actual, like just a food sensitivity.

他们吃了那种食物后，身体感觉不太对劲。

They're not quite right when they eat that food.

很多人有食物不耐受的问题，但即使你能确定是哪些食物，也要思考背后究竟是哪个系统出了问题，因为食物不耐受可能是因为你的肠道屏障太松散。

People show up a lot with food sensitivities, but there's different ways to look at even if you can name the foods, what is the underlying system that's going awry because a food sensitivity can be that your gut integrity, your gut lining is too loose.

我们称之为‘肠漏’，你的身体吸收了太多本不该进入血液的大分子颗粒，说明你的消化系统没有正常工作，大蛋白质进入了血液循环。

We call that leaky gut and you're absorbing too many bigger particles like your digestive system isn't working and big proteins are making it to your bloodstream.

所以你的身体实际上是在应对这种情况——我们知道肠道是问题的一部分，但免疫系统把这些大蛋白质误认为入侵者，于是开始攻击它们。

So then your body is actually so we know the gut is part of the problem, but we know the immune system is seeing these big proteins as invaders and it's going and attacking.

因此我们知道，真正出问题的是免疫系统；但有时在过敏反应中，比如你遇到的是双子座或处女座，或者涉及水星或第三宫的情况，我就会考虑是神经系统的问题，而不是免疫系统——虽然免疫系统确实在反应，但可能是他们的神经系统过于敏感、过度反应，或者呼吸系统本身也存在问题。

And so we know it's the immune system that's really going awry, whereas other times with allergies, and again, you would see this more with, so say you, somebody was a Gemini or a Virgo or, you know, watching, you know, Mercury or maybe the third house be involved in an issue, then I would consider the nervous system rather than the immune, I mean, the immune system is having a reaction, but it might be that their nervous system is hypersensitive and overreacting or part of their lungs, you know, respiratory system is, is part of the issue.

所以当一个人出现不耐受反应时，这可能是免疫系统、呼吸系统或神经系统的问题；而通过命盘分析，医学占星术可以帮助你辨别哪些系统参与其中，进而找出真正的主因。因为你可以治疗症状，但如果不解决根本原因，就无法实现彻底康复。

So it's beautiful when someone's having like a sensitivity or like if you're having that can be the immune system or it can be the respiratory system or it can be the nervous system and, and medical astrology by looking at the natal chart, you can kind of discern which all the systems are involved, but what is the big culprit system that I what is the underlying problem because you can treat symptoms, but unless you get to the cause or the underlying issue, you're not going to have complete remediation.

所以我特别喜欢医学占星术，你知道的，对于某些客户，我必须更多地支持他们的神经系统，而不是免疫系统。

So I love that medical astrology, you know, and I know with these certain clients, I gotta support your nervous system more than I have to support your immune system.

我认为这正是医学占星术的其中一个优势，尤其是通过身体部位和宫位来判断哪些系统正在承受压力。

And I think that is one of the gifts of medical astrology and especially playing with body parts and houses for which systems are under stress.

而现代医学其实无法提供这样的检测手段来向我们证明这一点。

And modern medicine can't really there aren't tests to show us that.

再说一遍，在自然疗法中，抱歉，克里斯，我这会儿有点滔滔不绝了。

And again, in naturopathy, sorry, I'm on like a monologue here, Chris.

在自然疗法中，我们有这样一种信念。

In naturopathy, we have this belief.

我们称之为‘感染灶理论’。

We call it the septic foci theory.

这个理论属于自然疗法范畴。

And it's and it's in natural.

这并不是医学占星术，但我们认为，每个人出生时都有一两个天生较弱的系统。

This is not medical astrology, but we have this idea that we are all born with one or two systems that are just are weak.

那里是你的软肋。

There are Achilles heel.

但我喜欢在医学占星术中，通过你的出生星盘来找出你的软肋。

But I love that in medical astrology I can figure out your Achilles heel by your natal placements.

所以我在尝试将这些结合起来。

So I'm trying to overlap.

这样说得通吗？

Does that make sense?

是的，当然。

Yeah, for sure.

而且这种试图更加整体化的方法很重要，因为现代医学有时倾向于只关注症状，试图缓解或对抗它们，却不去探究根本原因。

And just that idea of trying to be like a little bit more holistic because there's sometimes a tendency in modern medicine to focus on the symptoms and trying to like address those and counteract that somehow without getting to the underlying cause.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

这就是我们最大的问题。

And that's our biggest problem.

你知道，在澳大利亚我们说湿疹，但在北美，我想你们也说湿疹。

You know, if you have in Australia, we say eczema, but over in North America, you would say eczema, I think.

如果你有红色皮疹，医生会给你开皮质类固醇药膏，这实际上是一种典型的火星疗法——抑制免疫反应。

If you have a red skin rash, you're given cortisone cream, which is, you know, that's actually, you know, very Mars treatment for Mars, it's suppressing this immune reaction.

但在自然医学和医疗占星术中，我们相信，你为什么会得皮肤问题呢？

But in natural medicine and medical astrology, we have the belief that if you you know, why are you getting the skin ailment in the first place?

你是否接触了某种物理因素导致皮疹？

Are you coming into contact with something physically causing a rash?

你是否摄入了某种导致皮疹的东西？

Are you ingesting something that's causing the rash?

因为食物过敏与皮肤问题密切相关，这非常常见。

Because that's really common as food allergies with with skin issues.

但如果你只是涂抹皮质类固醇，虽然症状暂时消失了，但你实际上是在压制身体发出的警示信号——皮肤问题其实是身体在告诉你，内部出了状况。

But if you're putting cortisone on it, yes, it temporarily goes away, but you're literally suppressing the signpost that the body's like, hey, something's, you know, skin stuff is the body telling you something's wrong on the inside.

但如果我们只是——别误会，如果你的皮疹很严重，而下周你还要去参加奥斯卡颁奖礼，那就抹点皮质类固醇药膏，让自己这一周感觉好点。

But if we just and don't get me wrong, if you have a bad cortisone rash and you need to go to some big funk, you're going to the Oscars next week, put the cortisone on and feel better for the week.

但别忽视这一点：你的身体正在发出我之前提到的那些信号，提醒你要关注其他地方的问题。

But don't ignore the fact that your body it's those signposts I was talking about before telling you to pay attention somewhere else.

我们还认为，如果你在一处压制了症状，它迟早会在另一个地方冒出来。

We also have the belief that if you suppress something in one area, it's just going to go in and pop out in another area.

没错。

Right.

我生活中最烦人的一件事就是，有时我们在年轻时做了某些事、吃了某些东西或用了某些物质，后来才发现自己对它们过敏，或者它们与我们的身体系统不兼容。有时候要过很多年才会明白，真希望当时就能拥有这些知识。

One of my most annoying life things about life is that sometimes we do things or we eat things or we take different things early in our life that later we find out that we were allergic to that or that that doesn't do well with our system for some Sometimes it takes many years and you sort of wish that you could have gone back and had that knowledge earlier.

但关键是，有时我们正在做的一些事其实是适得其反的，甚至在不知不觉中阻碍或伤害了自己。

But just the idea that sometimes you can be doing something that's counterproductive and almost hindering yourself in some way or even harming yourself and not realizing it.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

而且，克里斯，我完全同意。

And, Chris, yeah, I absolutely agree.

有时候，那些你以为是健康的东西其实并不是。

And sometimes those are things that you thought were healthy and

它们并不是。

they're not.

是的，这让我想到第十二宫，以及一些关于自我毁灭的传统观念，从最核心的象征意义上讲，就是做一些无意中或未意识到的、正在削弱自己的事情。

Yeah, it makes me think of like the twelfth house even and some of those traditional notions of like self undoing which on a very core level symbolically is just like doing things that are somehow undermining yourself perhaps unintentionally or without realizing it.

是的，完全正确。

Yeah, absolutely.

我们可以看看自我毁灭。

And we could look at self undoing.

我们也可以看看成瘾。

We could also look at addiction.

我不是在说那种成瘾，比如他们对海洛因或可卡因上瘾之类的情况。

You know, and I'm not just talking addiction like, oh, they're addicted to heroin or cocaine or something like that.

我们是上瘾的。

Like we're addicted.

我们最大的一些成瘾其实是食物。

Some of our biggest addictions are food.

我们知道，而这种成瘾可能正是我们最大的自我毁灭方式——我们以为自己在做正确的事，遵循某种饮食。

And we know and, and that can be some of our greatest undoing is we think we're doing the right thing and eating a certain diet.

但最终，这实际上严重耗尽了我们的体质，或引发了更大的问题。

But in the end, it's absolutely depleting our constitution or causing bigger problems.

而且，每个人并没有适合的单一饮食，对有些人来说，吃肉真的很有帮助。

And, you know, there is no one diet for everybody, you know, and for some people, you know, eating meat really works for them.

对另一些人来说，却并不适用。

Other people, it doesn't.

对另一些人来说，无论是纯素食、素食还是生酮饮食，等等，根本不存在一种正确的饮食方式。

Other people, you know, vegan, vegetarian or paleo, whatever, you know, it's it's there is no one right diet.

我们现在知道，食用那些我们轻微敏感的食物——并非明显的过敏——实际上会激活我们体内的阿片受体和大麻素受体，从而让我们持续渴望这些对我们有害的食物。

And we now know that eating foods that we're slightly sensitive to not this overt allergy actually triggers off opiate receptors and the cannabinoid receptors in our body, which keep us craving these foods that are not good for us.

对。

Right.

所以这确实是一个第十二宫的体现。

So and that's a real twelfth house.

这是一种同时自我毁灭的成瘾行为。

It's that self undoing an addiction at the same time.

从生化角度看，我们的身体确实驱使我们不断通过某些食物获得这些小小的快感，这难道是我们的错吗？

And it's and is that our fault, you know, biochemically, our body is driving for us to have these little highs all the time through certain foods.

作为一名自然疗法医生，虽然没人喜欢我这么说，但我让绝大多数人戒掉了乳制品。

It's incredibly like as a naturopath, nobody likes me for it, but I take a very large percentage of people off dairy food.

乳制品确实很好吃。

Dairy food is yummy.

谁不喜欢冰淇淋、巧克力或奶酪呢？

You know, who doesn't like ice cream or chocolate or cheese?

人们都很喜欢这些东西。

You know, people love that stuff.

但对很多人来说，这些食物是一种自我毁灭的诱因。

But for a lot of people, it's a self undoing food.

是的，这确实很棘手。

Yeah, that's really tricky.

不过我喜欢这一点，即占星术可以帮助我们认识到每个人都是独特的。

I like though how with this that astrology can help but show us that each person is unique.

这另一种方式进一步确认或强调了你所说的：在健康模式上，没有一种方法适合所有人。

And it's like another way just to confirm or emphasize what you were saying in terms of that there's not a one size fits all for everybody in terms of health models.

你真的必须认识到每个个体的独特性，不仅是体质，还有他们的独特优势和敏感点，而占星术可以作为一种捷径，直击核心——我想象一下，比如过敏测试，通常需要在人背上贴上各种小物质，逐一测试每个人可能过敏的所有东西，但那是一个漫长的过程，而占星术则不同。

You really have to recognize each individual person's unique, not just constitution, but unique strengths and sensitivities and using astrology as a way of getting to the heart of that as almost like a shortcut instead of I kind of imagine like for example with allergies in order to do an allergy test, how you do the thing where sometimes they'll put like little bits of stuff on a person's back and you'll just go through all the different things somebody could be allergic to, but that's like a whole process instead of

这叫做RAST测试。

That's called a RAST test.

明白了。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

RAST，至少在澳大利亚是这么叫的。

R A S T at least in Australia.

这是你的免疫系统的一种反应。

And that's one reaction of your immune system.

然后通过观察食物与你血液的反应，这是免疫系统的另一个完全不同的部分。

Then looking at the foods as they react to your blood is a totally different part of the immune system.

是的，这很痛苦。

Yeah, it's painful.

RAST测试太糟糕了。

Rest tests are horrible.

我看着我女儿经历了一遍。

I watched my daughter go through.

我让女儿做了这个测试。

I made my daughter do it.

太可怕了。

Was horrifying.

他们坐在那里，身上有60种潜在过敏原引发的大肿块，却不能碰它。

They're sitting there with 60 potential allergens causing these big welts on the body and they're not allowed to touch it.

这太可怕了。

It's horrible.

那是火星人看待问题的方式。

That's a Mars issue there.

那是火星人看待反应的方式。

That's a Mars way of looking at a reaction.

literally，他们用针扎你，把东西注入你的皮肤。

Literally, they're poking you with a pin and putting something in your skin.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

但通过占星术，你或许能够做到的不是绕开过敏检测，而是作为一种更广泛的隐喻，用占星术来探寻一个人可能在哪些方面存在特定问题，而不是盲目地逐一试验，只看一个人对什么有反应或没有反应。

But just with astrology that you might be able tonot that you can sidestep that if you're trying to figure out allergies, but as a broader metaphor using astrology to get to the heart trying to figure out what areas a person might have certain problems with as opposed to just empirically trying everything out and just like seeing what a person reacts or doesn't react to.

是的，完全正确。

Yeah, absolutely.

试遍所有方法都很贵，对吧？

It's expensive to try everything out, right?

你知道的，所有那些不同的检测方式都要花上几百甚至上千美元。

You know, all those different styles of testing are hundreds and hundreds of dollars.

这又回到了观察星盘中哪些行星承受巨大压力、处于落陷或弱相位，你知道的，受克严重的那些。

And that it goes back to looking at what planets under a lot of stress in the natal chart or in detriment or fall, you know, the, you know, poorly aspected.

同时也要看，如果我们把身体部位和星座对应起来，哪些星座承受了更多压力。就像我之前说的，有人可能有食物过敏，但他们的星盘却是极度风象主导，非常双子座。

And also just looking at which if we're relating body parts to signs, which signs are under more stress, like I said before, someone could come with food allergies, but they have this incredibly air dominated, you know, very Gemini chart.

我知道必须深入到他们最根本的问题。

I know I need to go after their truly underneath.

我需要支持的是他们的神经系统和呼吸系统。

It's their nervous system and respiratory system that I need to support.

而当双鱼座出现时，我就知道要针对免疫系统；如果白羊座出现，我当然不会忽略其他系统，但白羊座一出现，

Whereas the Pisces shows up and I know it's the immune system I need to go for if if you know an Aries shows up and it's not that I'm not going to treat the other systems, but an Aries shows up.

我就知道必须处理他们的压力反应。

I know I got to get after their stress response.

他们很可能通过肾上腺和皮质醇抑制了自己的免疫系统。

They're they're probably suppressing their immune system through their adrenals and their cortisol.

这确实是作弊。

It it's it is cheating.

这是彻头彻尾的取巧，而我恰恰喜欢这一点。

It's completely shortcut cheating, and it's what I love about it.

这简直是魔法。

It's magic.

这简直就是魔法。

It's literally magic.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这基本上是每一位占星师的反应和动机，因为我们所有人都会发展出不同的专长——占星术本身很有趣，但世界上还有其他许多专业领域，比如你专注于占星与健康，能够把占星术当作一种捷径、生活技巧或作弊码，来快速破解那些本不该如此轻易或迅速获知的信息。

And I think that's basically every astrologer's reaction and every astrologer's motivation because all of us develop sometimes these different It's interesting astrology but also there are other specializations and areas of specialization in the world whether it's for you astrology and health and you're able to use astrology as a shortcut or a life hack or a cheat code to figuring things out that you shouldn't be able to know that easily or quickly otherwise.

还有些人用它来处理心理学问题，把它当作一种捷径，而不是去——

There's other people that use it for things like psychology and using it as a shortcut there instead of doing-

多年的心理治疗。

Years of therapy.

为了弄清楚一些事情，可能提前获得这些信息，然后用它来辅助 triangulate（三角定位），但这并不排除必要的实际工作，而只是作为一种增强手段——就像历史学家用它来研究历史或其他领域一样。

Years of therapy in order to figure out some of the things, like maybe getting an idea of some of those things ahead of time and then using that to kind of help triangulate, not to the exclusion of doing the practical work that's necessary, but just as an enhancement or astrologers that use that, like historians that use that to research history or other things.

这太惊人了。

That's amazing.

和你聊这个让我想到，你使用占星术的方式让我意识到，占星师常常实际上就是在用占星术作为工具，来增强或像作弊码一样辅助我们其他的专长。

It was just making me think talking to you about this and how you use it makes me think of that and how astrologers are always That's really what we're doing oftentimes is using astrology as this tool to enhance or like a cheat code for whatever our other specializations are.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

而且，这再次体现了它的神奇之处。

And it's and again, that's the magic of it.

而且，我们能在这么多不同领域中这样使用它。

And the fact that there are so many different areas that we can do that with.

我们不必在所有这些领域都成为天才，我们可以专注于自己的专长。

And we don't have to be we don't have to be genius in all those areas, we can have our specialty.

前几天有人问我，我做了一次我所谓的常规占星解读，就是性格分析，让我给你看看你的出生星盘。

And, you know, someone was asking me the other day, I did a what I call a regular astrology reading, a personality, you know, let me read your natal chart.

因为我几乎不再做这类解读了。

And because I almost don't do those anymore.

我当然可以做，但我现在完全专注于医学占星。

I can, but it's I'm so focused on the medical.

拥有自己的专长并成为那样的人，真的很美好。

And it's and it's beautiful to have your niche and become that.

我不会说自己是专家，但拥有一个让你充满热情的领域，确实很棒。

I'm not going to call myself an expert, but, you know, to have that area that just lights you up.

这就像一种密码，能让你更好地理解宇宙，无论是从历史角度，我觉得占星学的这一方面绝对令人惊叹。

And it is it's like a code that you can read the universe better, be it historically, you know, I think, you know, that area of astrology is absolutely amazing.

我喜欢阅读这方面的内容，但我在这方面并不擅长。

I love reading about it, but I'm not I'm not great at that side of it.

对。

Right.

我有我的专长，但我觉得占星术本身就是一份礼物。

I have my my thing, but it's just I think astrology is such that gift.

你知道吗，我最近读到一篇很疯狂的《时代》杂志文章，或者有人提到，现在越来越多的人转向占星术，尤其是年轻一代，比如Z世代和千禧一代。

You know, I was reading some crazy time article or, you know, someone was talking about the increase in people turning to astrology at the moment, especially the younger generation, you know, the Gen Z and millennials.

为什么占星术的兴趣增长得这么快？

And why is it increasing so much?

你知道，这背后到底发生了什么？

What you know, what's happening with that?

这真的很令人兴奋。

And it was exciting.

就在过去四年里，人们对占星术的兴趣几乎翻了一倍。

It was like in the last four years, it's almost doubled the interest in astrology.

我只是觉得，这太美了。

And I just think it is it's this beautiful.

这是一种不同的生活窍门，帮助我们从历史、生理、情感、心理层面理解自己，以及用象征的方式理解这个世界。

It's a different life hack to understand ourselves, be it historically, physically, emotionally, psychologically, and just understanding the world symbolically.

这难道不是我们所有人都在试图弄清楚的事情吗？

Isn't that what we're all trying to figure out anyway?

没错。

Right.

当然。

For sure.

是的。

Yeah.

而且这种大量涌入的现象，似乎自20世纪60年代以来，还没有过这么多年轻新面孔进入占星领域。

And just, that huge influx because it seems like there hadn't been an influx of younger and newer people into astrology at that level since the 1960s.

所以过去五年左右，这一直是一个非常有趣的现象。

So it has been a really interesting phenomenon over the past five years or so.

天啊，这太疯狂了，也太令人兴奋了。

Oh my God, it's been crazy and and so exciting.

而且确实，我觉得它给了我们一些东西，你知道，因为我们都在这里试图弄清楚自己在做什么的意义，我们到底想追求什么，以及如何找到自己的热情。

And yeah, and I just think it gives us, you know, because we're all here kind of trying to figure out what is the meaning of what we're doing, what are we trying, you know, what and what finding our passion.

再说一遍，我现在已经完全脱离医学领域了，但你在寻找激情时，想想你，克里斯，你在占星学中真正热衷的是什么。

And again, this I'm going way off of medical here, finding your passion and what like think about you, Chris, and what you're passionate about in astrology.

而这些热爱和让你充满激情的事物，我会再回到医学角度，它们能提升你的活力。

And that gives you I am going to take it back to medical that enhances your vitality by finding those loves and finding those things that just light you up.

这种提升是医学意义上的，比如你的上升星座、太阳星座，虽然我对你的全部占星信息并不完全了解。

And that is enhancing medically, that rising sign that you know, that sun sign that you know, and I don't know all your astrology.

但这些让你充满热情的事物，其实就是一种压力管理方式。

So but those are the things, you know, finding those things that light you up is that is stress management.

所以在某种程度上，我们在这段充满压力的五年里，借助占星学找到了一种帮助——它确实有助于降低皮质醇水平，支持我们的身体系统。

And so in some way, we're using astrology as this what has been a very five stressful years that helps, you know, it actually helps with our cortisol levels and support our system.

所以我会把话题拉回来。

So I will bring it.

只要你给我足够的时间，我其实能把任何话题都拉回到健康上来。

I can bring anything back to health, really, if you just give me long enough.

对。

Right.

不过，我认为这里提到的一点是，尽管有这么多不同的领域，比如我还没提到的财务占星术，你也需要在占星之外的该领域接受培训并具备专业能力。

I think one thing that came up there though is with all these different areas, even something like another one I didn't mention was like financial astrology, for example, is you also need to have training and be good at what you do just in that area outside of the astrology.

这是一个非常重要的组成部分，而你确实做到了——你在这些其他领域拥有非常丰富的背景，这实际上至关重要，因为如果你不能同时在两个方面都做得好，你就很难有效地在这些情境中应用占星术。

And that's a really important component and that's something that you've done is that you have a really extensive background in these other And areas of that's actually really crucial because otherwise you're not going to necessarily be able to apply the astrology as effectively in that context if you're not good at both basically at the same time.

是的，当然。

Yes, yeah, absolutely.

我并不是想劝阻任何做普通占星的人去研究医学，即使没有医学背景，也有安全的方式可以应用基础的医学知识。

And I'm not trying to dissuade anybody who does regular astrology from studying medical and there are safe ways to apply basics of medical if you don't have medical training.

但确实如此。

But yeah, absolutely.

对我来说，这是因为有了这些积累，我才能迅速洞察身体想要传达的所有层面，因为我已经在健康领域研究或工作了三十多年。

It's it's for me, it's so you can find all the layers really quickly of what the body is trying to tell you because I've thirty plus years of studying or, or working in health professions.

我也不确定自己这些年来见过多少客户，我还在大学授课，并监督学生完成他们的实习时数。

And I don't even know how many clients I've seen over the years I lecture at university, I supervise students as they do their intern hours as well.

所以我能观察到这些新手自然疗法医生和营养师是如何接待客户的。

So I get to watch all these baby naturopaths nutritionists as they see clients.

所以我能只是旁观。

So I get to just watch it.

而且我能观察他们所有人。

And I get to watch them all.

是的，这真是一份礼物，因为我一直专注于身体和生理学，不断学习最新的知识。

Yeah, it's just such a gift that I am always on that, you know, dealing with the body and physiology and learning all the latest.

你知道吗，克里斯，有趣的是我能学到所有最新的医学信息。

You know, what's fun, Chris, is I get to learn all the latest information medically.

然后我不断发现，这再次印证了医学占星术的正确性——比如最近关于肠脑轴的医学发现，我们的消化系统通过迷走神经直接与大脑相连。

And then I swear it's just justifying the medical astrology again and again, like all this medical information that's just come out on the gut brain axis, like how our digestive system has this direct line with our vagus nerve straight up to the brain.

而那里确实存在着一种交流。

And this conversation that's happening there.

但我们也知道，我们的消化系统，尤其是小肠，对应着处女座或第六宫。

But also we now know our digestive system, especially our small intestines, which is Virgo or the sixth house.

我们的消化系统承载了我们身体70%的免疫系统。

Our digestive system holds 70% of our system.

免疫系统对应双鱼座和第十二宫。

Immune system is Pisces in the twelfth house.

因此，你对肠道状况对免疫系统产生巨大影响有了清晰的认识。

And so you have this beautiful awareness that what's going on in the gut is massively impacting the immune system.

这正好印证了那些创立医学占星术的人的智慧。

And that's that 612 house up like it just justifies whoever figured out all the medical astrology.

他们简直精准得离谱，但他们根本不知道这些科学发现，你知道吗？比如迷走神经，就是传统上主宰第六宫的水星，天啊，我们的消化系统正在和大脑对话，当科学证实了我们早已在医学占星术中知晓的这一切时，这种震撼简直让我屏住呼吸。

They were so spot on, but they didn't even know this stuff, you know, like, that's the stuff that blows me away or the vagal nerve, vagus nerve kind of, you know, that sixth house mercury traditional ruler of the six, you know, oh my god, it's our digestive system talking to our brain and it's like it's takes my breath away how awesome it is when science confirms what we already knew in medical astrology.

是的，我认为这恰恰说明了占星术真正洞察到了宇宙运作的核心机制，它不仅提供了对宇宙运行的真正洞见，也从象征层面揭示了人类生活的规律。

Yeah, I think that just goes back to the extent that astrology figured out really something core about how the universe operates and functions and that it provides some actual legitimate insight into that as well as into how people's lives go on a symbolic level.

这种洞见在不同时代、不同文明中持续成立，因为占星体系所揭示的某些根本性原理，深刻回应了人类生命体验及其所有相关层面。

It's like that continues to be true throughout different eras in different civilizations and stuff because there's something at a really core level about what they figured out with that system that speaks to the human experience of life and all the things involved in it.

天啊。

Oh, my God.

如果你静下心来观察，就会觉得这实在太美了。

It's it's so like if you sit back and look at it, you just go, that is beautiful.

他们到底是怎么弄清楚这一切的？

And like, how did they even figure that all out?

如果你回看历史，天啊，我越来越喜欢了。

Like, if you look back at the history, oh, my God, I like more and more.

我真的很佩服那些分析并发现这些宇宙象征、行星象征的人。

I'm like, kudos to the people who analyze this and figured it out, that that symbolism of the universe and the, you know, the planets.

这简直太神奇了。

And it's just it.

我每天都更加惊叹于它。

I'm more in awe of it every day.

我也对人类的身体感到敬畏，因为它太复杂了。

And I'm in awe of the human body because it's complicated.

天啊，这身体是怎么被组合出来的？

And oh my God, how did that get put together?

当然，是的，还有人类的进化以及类似的各种事情。

For sure, yeah, and the evolution of humans and different things like that.

那里其实有很多有趣的内容。

There's actually a lot of interesting stuff there.

我确实想问问你关于外行星的事，因为我们已经聊了很多关于传统行星，以及外行星如何与健康相关。

I did want to ask you about the outer planets because we've talked a lot about the traditional planets and how the outer planets show up in health.

比如，如果某人的星盘中外行星与健康或身体宫位有关，根据你的经验，这种情况通常会如何体现？

Like for example, if somebody has outer planets connected to health or bodily sectors in the chart, how have you seen that manifest just in your experience?

是的，我确实会使用外行星。

Yeah, so I do use the outers.

我更关注传统行星，因为医学占星学正是源于此。

I do focus on more of the traditional planets, obviously, because that's where medical astrology comes from.

但你不能忽视外行星在健康问题中的影响。

But you can't dismiss the outers in health ailments.

我看到，尤其是通过行运，它们会引发一系列需要我们去探究的问题。

I see, especially by transit, they trigger off cascades of things we need to go look at.

比如，海王星和免疫系统，或者海王星难以捉摸、难以诊断——传统上，海王星落在第六宫就是典型的无法弄清患者究竟哪里出了问题的配置。

So, you know, Neptune and the immune system or Neptune being hard to figure out hard to diagnose, you know, tradition is where traditional with Neptune in the sixth is a classic placement for not being able to figure out what the hell what is going on with someone's ailments.

就像是一种典型情况，你知道，如果你遇到任何人说，我讨厌现代医学，没人能理解我。

Like it's a class, you know, if you ever meet anybody who's like, I hate modern medicine, no one can figure me out.

他们都太蠢了。

They're all stupid.

你知道，在会议上你会遇到这样的人，他们说，我讨厌现代医学。

You know, you get meet these people at conferences that are being like, I hate modern medicine.

我几乎可以肯定，他们要么有海王星落在角上，或者更常见的是海王星落在第六宫，因为这就像给你戴上了一副无法看透的滤镜。

I will almost guarantee they've got Neptune on an angle or more commonly Neptune in the sixth because it just kind of puts this filter you can't see through.

所以是的，海王星和所有外行星，但它们

So yeah, Neptune, all the outers, but they

就是围绕健康问题的那种模糊感。

just nebulousness surrounding like health issues.

这很好。

That would be good.

海王星的关键词。

Keyword for Neptune.

这个词太棒了。

That's such a great word.

是的。

Yes.

所以没错，我确实会用所有外行星。

So yes, I do use all the outers.

我特别关注它们如何触发健康问题，或揭示健康问题已经发生的原因，以及可能该如何应对。

I especially look at them triggering off health and health issues or triggering off insight into why a health issue is already happening and maybe what to go do about it.

有时这更像是一种启迪，不是一半一半，而是深入理解疾病的本质，有时需要更全面地了解疾病，以及你能从中学到什么。

Sometimes it's more of an enlightenment and half, half, not half, but getting to the heart of an ailment is sometimes understanding more about the ailment or or the bigger picture of an ailment and what you need to learn from it.

我不是说所有的疾病和健康问题都如此。

And I'm not saying all ailments and health stuff.

有些只是生理性的，但有些则涉及我们需要经历的关于自我的更深层理解。

Some of it's just physical, but some of it has that bigger understanding of our self that we need to go through.

但没错，我确实会用外行星。

But yes, I definitely use the outers.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，有时一个人正在经历一种模糊的健康问题，可能正好与海王星的运行相吻合。

So even sometimes maybe a period where a person is going through a nebulous health issue and they're not able to figure out maybe would coincide with the Neptune transit.

但有时候我知道，海王星运行过后，事情会变得清晰，或者那些曾经模糊的东西最终会明朗起来。

But then sometimes I know with Neptune transits you get to the other side of the transit and then things become clear or something that was obscure you eventually figure out.

但在你身处其中时，有时很难准确地指出到底发生了什么。

But it's like while you're in the midst of that sometimes it can be really hard to put your finger on exactly what's going on.

是的，这个描述非常贴切。

Yes, that's a great description of it.

而有时候，这正是其中的一部分。

And sometimes that's part of it.

有时，要到达彼岸，你必须经历一种放手的过程，你知道，这并不好受。

Sometimes there's a surrender in not getting to know that you have to go through to get to the other side, you know, and that's not fun.

我的意思是，我曾经也经历过。

I mean, I've been there.

我有慢性疲劳的历史，一直在尝试找出能解决这个问题的方法。

I have a history of chronic fatigue and trying to figure out what's, you know, what's going to fix something.

但有时候，根本解决不了。

And sometimes it's not.

有时候，这正是那种必须 surrender 的过程，你身处海王星的虚无之中，什么都做不了。

Sometimes it's part of that surrender that you're kind of in that Neptunian void where you can't do anything about it.

而当你终于到达另一边时，是的，这并不好受。

And, and then getting to that other side, it's yeah, it's not fun.

你知道，天王星带来的突发状况往往非常 erratic 或异常。

And you know, Uranus with, you know, sudden things happening are really erratic or unusual.

而外行星相位的美妙之处在于，海王星虽然不明显，但你能看到围绕这种病症的能量波动，因为海王星的能量和天王星的能量截然不同。

And, you know, the beauty with the outer planet transits is there again, they can be very well, Neptune isn't obvious, but you can see the energy happening around that ailment, you know, because a Neptune energy versus a Uranian energy is very different.

或者，你知道，冥王星的能量，还有天王星的能量，也可能表现为意外和突发状况。

Or, you know, Pluto, you know, and uranium energies can also be accidents and sudden things happening, you know.

但像冥王星这样的行星，在医疗占星中，冥王星代表深入，同时也关乎深度排毒——排毒可以是身体的、情绪的、心理的、灵性的，而一旦涉及冥王星，就往往伴随着多重层次。

But things like Pluto, you know, Pluto also, you know, in medical astrology, Pluto is going deep, but it's also about deep detox and detox can be physical, it could be emotional, mental, spiritual, and it's a lot of layer, you know, if Pluto is involved, there's a lot of layers involved.

然后，如果我们谈论脱皮、蜕变，也就是剥离你不同层面的自我，无论是身体上还是情感上的。

And then there's a lot of, you know, if we want to talk about skin shed, you know, transformation of shedding different layers of yourself, be they physically or emotionally.

所以，占星学再次为你提供了这些绝佳的原型，你需要深入探索。

And so it just again, astrology gives you these great archetypes that you need to go down.

如果你是一名从事医学占星的占星师，却不知道该告诉人们关于补充剂或草药的知识，不了解情感原型和心理原型，你就无法有效地引导客户。

If if you're an astrologer working with medical, and you don't know the things to tell people about, know, supplements or, or herbs, You know the emotional archetype you know the psychological archetype and you can facilitate a client that way.

在自然医学中，我们有一种信念，称为整体三元论：心理、情感和身体。

You know in in in natural medicine we have a belief we call it the holistic triad mental, emotional and physical.

我们自身和健康都有这三个层面。

And we have these three layers to ourselves and three layers to our health.

当身体出现状况时，另外两个层面也常常会失衡。

And when something goes wrong in the physical, often the other two kind of go askew as well.

它们彼此协同运作，也会一起失去同步。

They all kind of work together or go out of sync together.

而美妙之处在于，如果你开始着手其中一个层面，比如你有一个始终无法解决的身体疾病，如果你能找出是哪颗行星导致了这个问题，就可以从心理或情感层面来支持这颗行星。

And the beauty is if you start working on one, so say you have a physical ailment that you just can't get on top of, If you start supporting and you can figure out what planet is causing that, you can start to support that planet psychologically or emotionally.

这有望让身体状况好转。

And it will hopefully pull back the physical.

它会再次缓解。

It'll ease again.

就像行星受伤了一样。

It's like the planet's getting hurt.

就像教室后排那个调皮的孩子，你开始给予它关注和关爱，即使这不是在身体层面上。

It's the naughty boy, the naughty person, you know, in the back of the class and you start to give it some attention and love, even if it's not on the physical plane.

这会有助于改善，因为我们之前谈到的活力和体质，是贯穿这三个层面的。

And it will hopefully help that you know, because vitality that we talked about and constitutionally, it's on all three of those levels.

这不仅仅是身体层面的，我认为——我绝不是这方面的专家——但目前一些占星魔法实践者正在做的一些事情，比如祈愿和通过严格的方式进行干预，虽然‘祈祷’这个词可能不太准确，但他们大量使用这类疗愈方法。

It's not just physical and, and this is where I think, you know, and I'm by no means an expert in this area, but some of the astro magic people are doing at the moment and petitioning and, you know, using prayer through a strict, you know, the prayers probably not the right word, but using a lot of that remediation.

同样，这是在关注另一个层面，当我们陷入困境时，这有望带动身体的恢复。

Again, it's focusing on that other level that can hopefully pull the physical when we get stuck.

这样讲清楚了吗？

Did that make sense?

是的，当然。

Yeah, for sure.

当你提到心理、情绪和身体之间的联系时，这让我再次意识到它们的关联。

And it just ties it back when you mentioned like mental, emotional and physical and the connection between those two.

这让我重新思考，你提到过生命力与太阳、月亮和上升星座这三大要素有关，也许正是这些要素如此关键的原因——它们不仅仅是心理或性格的指标，有时我们的心理和性格也与身体健康紧密相连，构成一个更大的整体。

Made me think again, and you mentioned vitality going back to the big three in the sun, moon and rising and maybe why those are so crucial, not just partially as psychological or character indicators, but how sometimes our psychology and our character can be tied in with physical or health things as part of a bigger picture.

是的，完全正确。

Yeah, absolutely.

这就是那三大要素。

And that's those big three.

没错。

Absolutely.

我经常从心智、身体、情绪、心理和身体的角度来思考，然后还可以加入灵性或精神层面，同时你也可以对应四大元素：情绪对应水，身体对应土，心智对应风，而灵性或生命力则对应火。

You you know, I often think of it mind, body, emotional, mental, physical, and then you could add in spirit or spiritual and you you also then have the four elements, you know, you have, you know, emotional with water and physical with earth and air with mental and then you could do spirit or vitality with fire.

我经常用这种方式借助元素来理解，而且即使你不是专门从事医疗占星，只要做常规的星盘分析，观察你三大要素的元素分布以及它们需要如何表达，都是非常简单的。比如，食物很容易对应元素，草药对应元素，活动也对应元素。

And I use the elements a lot that way to kind of work with and again, doing regular astrology if you're not if you don't do a lot of medical working with, you know, what stress is going on or looking at your big three elementally and how they need to be expressed is such a simple, know, foods very easily fall into the elements, herbs fall into the elements, activities fall into the elements.

通过元素来支持这三大要素在身体中的作用非常简单，因为你可以上溯到草药和行星的复杂归属体系，但这些归属体系存在很多争议，同时也有很多相似之处。

And it's a really easy way to support those big three in the body is elementally because you can go down this crazy rulership of herbs and planets, and there's a lot of disagreement over those rulerships and and there's a lot of similarity.

我目前正在制作一张庞大的图表，试图梳理不同人对这些内容的说法，其他人也做过类似的工作。

I'm in the middle of doing this massive chart to try to look at who who said what about where and and other people have done that as well.

有时候人们会问，你会关注给药的时间吗？

And you know, sometimes people are like, oh, do you look at the timing of giving medicines?

你会不会考虑，比如行星小时，什么时候给特定药物，以及相关的各种规则。

Do you look at, you know, hours of, know, because there's looking at planetary hours and when to give certain medicines and there's all these rules about it.

你可以深入到这种程度，有时我也会这么做，但通常我会把它拉回来。

And you can go that deep and at times I will, but often bring it back.

健康其实关乎做一些基础的事情，我们并不总需要深入到如此细致的层面。

Health is it's actually about doing something basic and we don't always have to get down to that detail.

细节或许有帮助，但我希望人们记住，它其实可以非常简化，比如通过元素——我认为在医疗占星学中，元素被严重低估了。

The detail can help, but I want people to remember how simplified it can be like with the elements like the elements are so underrated, I reckon in medical astrology.

是的，当然。

Yeah, for sure.

总的来说，这些元素在意义和内涵的丰富性上非常深厚，它们构成了星盘中大多数其他内容的基础，就是这些简单的元素特质和特性。

And just in general, how rich they are in terms of the range of meanings and things and how that underpins most of the other things in the chart is just those simple elemental qualities and characteristics.

是的，还有性格。

Yeah, and personality.

如果你回溯医学史，这就是我们讨论体液和气质的地方。

And you know, if you go back in medicine, this is where we were doing the humors and the temperaments.

关于这个有很多优秀的书籍，教你如何根据你的星盘特征来判断自己的气质类型。

There's a lot of great books on that and how to figure out what your temperament is depending on your astrological makeup.

同样地，对于如何分析气质也存在分歧，就像在占星学的每一个话题上都存在分歧一样。

And again, there's disagreement on how to analyze temperament as there's disagreement in every topic in astrology.

但我通常会回归到元素，而不是气质，也许是因为我是白羊座，我喜欢简单直接，或者我也不够聪明之类的。

But I often bring it back to the elements rather than the temperaments, maybe because I'm in Aries and I like to keep it simple and I'm not smart or something.

我不太确定自己为什么这么做。

I'm not quite sure why I do this.

但我认为元素非常明显，也更容易运用，甚至胜过深入剖析气质，因为我认为那些使用气质理论的医生们，当时对身体的了解还不够深入，我并不是在反对这一点。

But I think the elements are so obvious and easier to work with even then dissecting down to temperament because there's, I think the doctors that were using temperaments, you know, we didn't understand as much about the body and I'm not disagreeing.

我喜欢他们所做的和所说的，正如我所说，关于这个有很多好书，但要理解它比理解元素要难得多。

I love what they've done and said and there's like I said, there's great books on it, but it's a lot trickier to get your head around than the elements.

因此，当我教授医学占星学时，我通常更侧重于元素的运用，因为元素在自然界中更明显，比气质和体液更直观。

And so I often teach when I teach medical astrology, I teach much more of elemental use because it's it's more it's obvious in nature, the elements more so than temperaments and humors.

是的，我同意。

Yeah, I agree.

我也更倾向于支持元素，而不是专注于气质。

I'm much more pro element as well versus focusing on the temperament.

明白。

Know that.

在我刚完成的星座系列中，我试图强调这一点，但这是一个理解黄道十二宫以及根据元素倾向来解读个人星盘的基础切入点——一个人的星盘中哪种元素更多或更少，这又如何影响事物？

And it's something I tried to emphasize in the zodiac series that I just did, but what a fundamental access point that is for understanding the signs of the zodiac and just understanding people's birth charts based on even just elemental predispositions and what does a person have more of in a chart or what does a person have less of in a chart and how does that affect things?

对。

Yeah.

我记得我刚开始学占星时，第一堂课老师就讲了元素，我们是在学星座之前先学元素的。

And it's like, I remember that's like the first class when I studied astrology, my teacher went, I think we did elements before we did signs.

我觉得元素之所以被边缘化，是因为它们看起来太简单了。

And I feel like elements get moved to the side because they're so simple yet.

但它们其实很深奥。

They're deep.

而且它们非常能说明问题，我经常开设长达数小时的医学元素课程。

And they're so telling I teach whole like long classes on the elements medically.

因为你可以运用所有的草药、食物和活动。

Because again, you can do all herbs, all foods, all activities.

当你看一张星盘时，很容易就能发现：天啊，你水元素主导，却完全没有土元素。

And it's so easy to look at a chart and go, Oh my gosh, you're really dominant water and you've got no earth.

我不是在说你。

I'm not talking about you.

我只是泛泛而谈。

I'm just in general.

我不了解你的星盘。

I don't know your astrology.

这就像是，好吧，这很简单。

And it's like, Okay, well, that's easy.

我可以针对这一点下手。

I can go after that.

我知道该怎么开一些属土的药方来平衡它。

I know how to prescribe earth things to try to balance that out.

很多时候，我们其实已经凭直觉弄明白了。

And a lot of the times we've already figured it out intuitively.

我们一些最喜爱的消遣方式，其实已经在帮助补充我们缺失或不足的元素。

And we're already some of our favorite pastimes help support our missing or depleted elements.

是的，我们也很容易对那些本身很强的元素产生一点依赖。

Yeah, we're also good at being a little bit addicted to our good our elements that are high.

是的，我们还会把拥有我们所缺乏元素的人引入生活，由他们来促使我们去做那些原本被忽略的事情。

Yeah, or we import people into our lives that have that element that we're lacking and then they are the one that get us to do those things that were otherwise sort of missing out on.

太对了。

So true.

我可能娶了一个正好是我缺失元素的人。

I may or may not have married somebody who is my missing element.

真不错。

Nice.

这对你来说太老套了，但同时又很浪漫。

That's very cliche of you, but also romantic at the same time.

真有趣。

That's funny.

但你知道，有时候这真的让我烦透了，因为这正是我缺失的。

But it, you know, and it irritates me to know end at times because it is my missing.

我心想：什么？

I'm like, What?

为什么我们必须做这个？

Why do we have to do this?

但没错，这对我而言是很好的良药。

But yeah, it's good medicine for me.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，这真的很有趣，我发现随着我在占星学上待得越久，那些我们最初学的占星101基础知识，后来虽然转向更复杂、高级的技术，但有时随着职业发展，事情会兜回来，你最终又回到起点，意识到占星学中最基础的东西，反而是最引人入胜、最有用的，尤其是在你见识过一切之后。

Well, that's really funny how I think the longer I'm in astrology how sometimes those astrology 101 things that we learn first and then we move on and we try to get into more complicated or advanced or complex techniques.

但随着你职业发展得越深，事情往往会兜回原点，你最终还是会回到最初，意识到占星学中最基础的东西，往往是最有说服力、最有用的，尤其是在你见识过所有高级技巧之后。

But then sometimes the later you get in your career how you end up things come full circle and you end up somehow back where you started and realizing that sometimes the most basic things in astrology are actually some of the most compelling things that are the most useful once you've sort of seen everything.

哦，我喜欢这个观点，克里斯。

Oh, I love that idea, Chris.

而且它们最强大。

And they're most powerful.

它们太强大了。

They're so powerful.

我不是说，比如我之前提到过行星时和用药时机的问题，你知道，什么时候该用某种药物，或者有一整套清单，告诉你根据行星主宰关系，什么时候采摘特定草药、什么时候加工它们。

I'm not, you know, it's like I was talking about with planetary hours and or, you know, when to give a certain medicine, you know, when to, you know, there's whole lists on when to pick certain herbs depending on its rulership and then when to process them.

我并不反对。

And I don't disagree.