占星术作为占卜，与柯克·利特尔

但它不会让你通过解读星盘来实践占星术。

But it's not gonna allow you to do read charts to practice judicial astrology.

所以他强调了这一区别。

So he made that emphasis or that distinction.

这一点很重要，你知道吗？

That's an important one to say, you know what?

如果行星的某些运行周期与事件存在强烈关联，并且具有统计显著性。

If there are certain cycles that the planets show up that there's strong correlations with and that they show statistical significance.

好的。

Okay.

这没问题。

That's fine.

但这并不能让我们实践占星术。

But that does not enable us to practice judicial astrology.

因此，他的观点是，占星术的实践——无论是择日、命盘、问卜还是世俗星图——都涉及其他某种东西。

So his notion is that the practice of judicial astrology, the reading of horoscopes, whether that's an electional, whether that's a natal, whether it's a horary, whether it's a mundane map, that this has to do with something else.

而这种其他的东西，是的，是一种占卜过程。

And that something else, yes, is a process of divination.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

对我来说，这一直是他的核心论点，也是他论证中最有力、最有说服力的部分：他能够强有力地论证，我们所使用和熟悉的占星技术体系，其基础是行星作为象征或预兆，指示星盘中所体现的事物，而不是行星实际导致了这些事情的发生。

To me, that was always his core argument and that was the most powerful and persuasive part of his argument to me was that he was able to very forcefully argue the case that astrology Most of the technical apparatus of the astrology that we work with, that we're familiar with, is based on the planets acting as signs or omens of of what is being indicated in the chart and not that they're actually causing things to happen.

例如，如果某人经历火星相位，某天变得愤怒，那么火星相位只是作为一种预兆或象征，表明这种情况会发生，但并非火星这颗行星真的发射了物理射线或力量，导致那个人那天变得愤怒。

So for example, if somebody has a like a Mars transit and they get angry one day that the Mars transit was acting as like an omen or a symbol that that would occur, but it was not actually Mars, the planet, sending physical rays or forces that were somehow causing the person to be angry that day.

这类似于卡尔·荣格通过共时性概念试图定义的某种观点。

So it's like a similar formulation of Carl Jung's various attempts to define something like that through synchronicity.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

但对我的吸引力最大的是杰弗里的切入点：他指出卜星术，大多数占星师都会将其归类为一种占卜形式，而这种形式很难用因果关系来解释——当你为一个问题被提出的确切时刻绘制星盘时，这个星盘会同时描述问题的性质以及其结果。

But Geoffrey's access point that was the most compelling for me is that he pointed to horary astrology, which most astrologers would classify as a form of divination and that is clearly harder to make a causal case for how that works where you cast a chart, the astrologer casts a chart for the moment that a question is posed to them, and then the chart will both describe the nature of the question as well as the outcome.

这显然是一种占卜形式，基于征兆而非因果。

And that's very obviously a form of divination and is based on signs rather than causes.

但他反过来指出，所有其他占星分支也都是占卜，同样基于征兆而非因果，包括natal占星——历史上我们有时会认为行星可能影响了个体的孕育过程或某些生理、身体方面的因素。

But then he flipped it around and he said all of the other branches of astrology are also divination and based on signs rather than causes as well, even natal astrology, which sometimes through history we've developed these ideas of the planets maybe influencing the gestation of the native or different physiological physical things like that perhaps.

他说，即使是natal占星，出生时刻也类似于horary占星中的提问时刻，只不过这个问题关乎的是一个人的整个人生。

And he says, no, even natal astrology, that the moment of birth is sort of like the moment of a horary question, but it's just a question about the person's entire life.

我认为，这正是他当时论点中如此独特的地方，而且他表达得非常、非常有说服力。

And that I think was what was so unique about his argument at the time in making that and that he did it very, very persuasively.

是的。

Yes.

所以，我要回到上世纪七十年代中期，那时我刚开始接触占星，后来在1977年正式开始学习。

And so again, I'm gonna go back to the mid nineteen seventies when I was getting into astrology, beginning to study it, and then, again, formal study in 1977.

当时根本看不到horary占星的影子。

Horror was nowhere to be seen.

明白了。

Okay.

我读了诺埃尔·蒂尔的十二卷教材系列，作为我入门 astrology 的一部分。

I read the Noel Till 12 volume textbook series as one of my introductions to it.

他里面有一部分讲到了占星术中的恐怖学，我读了。

And he had a thing on horror in there, and I read it.

但当时没人认真对待恐怖学。

But nobody was taking horror very seriously.

事实上，如果你看看一些主要占星师对它的评论，态度非常轻蔑。

In fact, if you look at what some of the major some of the remarks some of the major astrologers said about it, it was very dismissive.

他们说，哦，这不过是算命。

And they said, oh, this is fortune telling.

这太荒谬了。

This is nonsense.

这给占星术抹黑了。

This is an embarrassment to astrology.

它让我们看起来像骗子，等等等等。

It makes us look like charlatans, etcetera, etcetera.

而且你知道，我当时根本不知道有谁在实践卜卦占星。

And, you know, so I I I knew of nobody practicing horary astrology.

事实上，在跟鲍勃·穆利根学习的三年里，我们一次都没有做过卜卦星盘。

And indeed, in three years to study with Bob Mulligan, not once did we ever do a horary chart.

这根本就不是鲍勃的风格。

That's just not who Bob was.

再说，他整个重点都放在咨询和与人互动上，他是一位非常成功的占星师。

Again, his whole emphasis was on counseling and working with people, and he's been a very successful astrologer.

事实上，我在进入这个行业几年后又回去找他，对他说：鲍勃，你教了我很多占星知识，但你从来没教过我如何成为一名占星师，如何把它做成一门生意。

In fact, I went back to him after I'd been in in the field for a few years, and I said, Bob, you taught me a lot of astrology, but you never taught me how to be an astrologer, how to make it work as a business.

他说这真的深深触动了他。

He said that that really struck him.

因此，他重新调整了授课方式，希望教人们关于占星的商业运作和实际实践。

And as a result of that, he restructured the way he taught courses and wanted to teach people about the business of it and the practice of it.

我不知道这是否属实，因为我没有回去再确认过。

I don't know if that's true because I have not gone back to revisit that.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，他后来成为了专业占星师组织的早期主席之一，或者甚至参与了该组织的创立，这个组织如今依然存在，帮助占星师们在这一方面发展。

Well, he ended up being one of the early presidents then or maybe even helped to found the organization for professional astrologers later, which is now an organization that's still around today that that kind of helps astrologers in in that way of of Absolutely.

试图鼓励

Trying to encourage

他们如何专业地实践占星？

them how to practice it professionally?

是的。

Yes.

确实如此。

It was.

你知道吗？

And you know what?

他说，在我所有的学生中，你是最严谨的。

Nobody, of all he said to me, of all of my students, you are the most thorough.

是的。

The yeah.

我跟他待在一起。

I stayed with him.

我上了每一门课。

I took every class.

任何课程我都学了。

You name it.

我读了大量英美占星学文献。

The books I read my way through a great deal of the Anglo American literature on astrology.

我的意思是，你知道的，查尔斯·卡特、艾伦·利奥和罗恩·戴维森，我后来还认识了他们，还有威廉·富兰克林，我后来才知道杰弗里觉得他是个有趣的人物。

I mean, you know, Charles Carter and Alan Leo and Ron Davidson, who, again, who I'd met, but William Franklin, who I've later found out that Geoffrey, you know, saw as an interesting character.

所以我不仅接触了美国人，还有这些人。

So I had those people as well as the Americans.

因此我觉得自己打下了坚实的基础。

And so I felt like I had a good grounding.

你知道吗，我研究过宇宙生物学，因为那看起来非常日耳曼化且严谨，这迎合了我内心想要看到这种近乎机械式体系的一面。

You know, I I studied cosmobiology because that seemed so Teutonic and rigorous, and it appealed to that side of me that wanted to see this rather I guess you could come almost call it mechanistic thing.

我的意思是，还有什么比两个行星的中点更机械的呢？你知道，一个行星正好位于另外两个行星的中点上。

I mean, what's more mechanistic than a than a midpoint, you know, of one planet following at the midpoint of two others?

这种精确性让我觉得非常吸引人，这种精确感令人十分愉悦。

It just seemed like that such exactitude, and there's something very pleasing about that.

那你用碳素法做过吗？

And did it with carbonics?

当我看到这个系统似乎能涵盖或解释占星学的其他部分时——无论是宫位系统还是星体配置——这对我来说本质上非常吸引人。

There was something fundamentally pleasing about that to me when I saw this system that seemed to subsume or to explain other parts of astrology, whether it's the house system, whether it's the steins.

你知道吗？

You know?

当我发现，哦，第九谐波就是印度占星学中的内容时。

When I found out, oh, the ninth harmonica, that's the of Indian astrology.

这让我觉得，哇，真有意思。

It's like, oh, that's intriguing.

所以，阿迪的研究又成了让我感兴趣的一件事，因为我希望它能更系统、更有条理，比我通常所见的更一致。

So, again, Adi's work became was another one of those things that appealed to me because I wanted it to be more systematic and more organized and more, what can I say, consistent than I often found it to be?

对。

Right.

所以，二十世纪的占星术出现了一种新技术的爆发。

So there's like this explosion of of new techniques in twentieth century astrology.

随着这些新技术的出现，人们寄希望于更高的技术熟练度或这些新方法带来的洞见，或许这正是占星术最终能够被验证的方式——通过技术进步。

And with some of those new techniques, there became hopes that with greater technical proficiency or with some of these new insights these techniques were providing that maybe this would be how astrology could be validated finally is through technical advancements.

而杰弗里在他的书中直接面对了这一点，他说：不，这行不通，因为你从根本上误解了占星术是什么。

And that's one of the things that Geoffrey confronts directly in his book and says, no, that's not gonna do it because you're still fundamentally misunderstanding what astrology is.

如果你认为占星术可以通过大规模的统计研究来检验并以此验证，那你就是从根本上误解了占星术的本质。

If you think it can be, you know, tested in these wide scale statistical studies and validated in that way, then you're fundamentally misunderstanding the nature of astrology.

没错。

That's correct.

所以我读了他的书。

So I'd read his book.

我读过玛吉的书，而且我知道自己七月要去英国。

I'd read Maggie's book, and it I knew I was going to England in July.

那是1995年。

This is 1995.

于是我给杰弗里和玛吉写了一封粉丝信。

So I essentially wrote Geoffrey and Maggie what's a fan letter.

这封信只是表达了我对他们两本书的钦佩。

Well, it just expressed admiration for both of their books.

我说，我仔细查阅了他们各自的参考文献，发现了一些文章。

And I said, you know, I had gone through the bibliographies of each of them, and there are a number of articles.

我想知道他们是否能帮我找到这些文章。

I'm wondering if they could help me secure them.

他们各自列出的资料有不少。

There are various things that each of them had listed.

结果，玛吉反而问我电话号码，说：‘哦，你不如来伦敦郊外的莉莉日见见我们吧？’

And instead, I get Maggie asked me for my phone number and said, oh, well, why don't you come to Lily Day in outside of London and meet us?

我当时就说，好啊。

I'm like, okay.

反正我本来也要去伦敦，所以我就赴约了。

So I knew I was going to London anyhow, and so I did.

而这个莉莉日活动就是在1995年举办的。

And this is Lily Day was basically in 1995.

我就在那一天和他们见了面。

And I met them in one day.

一开始我先见到了埃尔斯夫妇，派特·布莱基特来伦敦东南部的布莱克希思接的我。

First, I met the Ares first, Pat Blackett, who came and picked me up in Blackheath, the Southeast Side of London.

之后我们驱车前往特威克纳姆，杰弗里和玛吉的房子就在那里。

And we drove to Twickenham, which is where Geoffrey and Maggie had a house.

没想到我去的那天，竟是他们在特威克纳姆那栋房子里的最后一天。

It turned out to be the last day of their place of their house in Twickenham.

当时他们正忙着收拾行李，第二天就要搬到赫恩湾的房子去住了。

They were in the midst of packing, and they were moving to their house in Hernd Bay the following day.

所以玛吉还向我道歉，说：‘这儿乱七八糟的’，但我记得当时还浏览了他们书架上剩下的书。

So Maggie even apologized to me, say, oh, it's a mess here, but I remember shelf reading their bookshelf, whatever was still up on the shelves.

书架上杂乱地摆放着哲学、文学和其他各种书籍，还有几本占星书，但它们都已经被打包了。

It's just a hodgepodge of philosophy and literature and other kinds of things, a few astrology books, but they had been packed.

于是我们开车去了萨里，那里是莉莉晚年生活的地方，他当时是当地教会的执事。

So we drive to Surrey, which is where Lily ended his days, basically, as a member of the a church warden, basically, out there.

莉莉日是由占星师们发起的，用以纪念他们眼中命理占星的守护圣人——17世纪的占星师威廉·莉莉。

And so Lily Day was something that had been started by the company of astrologers to honor who they see as the kind of the patron saint of horary astrology, William Lilly, seventeenth century astrologer.

这就是我如何认识他们的。

And so that's how I met them.

那天天气炎热而美好，我对这些人之间讨论的深度感到无比震惊。

And it was a beautifully hot day, and I was just flabbergasted at the level of discourse that was going on among these people.

因为到那时我已经参加过各种占星会议了，但从未见过这样的场面。

Because I'd been to various astrological conferences by then, but nothing.

他们问我对占星学的哲学观点是什么。

They were asking me what my philosophy of astrology was.

他们问我更喜欢哪个美国的星盘图。

They're asking about which map I preferred for the The US.

他们问了我各种各样的问题。

They were asking me all kinds of thing.

他们非常好奇。

They were so curious.

但他们的言行既坦率，又带着一种谦逊。

But there was both a forthrightness, but also kind of a modesty to what they were doing.

我完全被吸引了，因为这与我读过的那两本书如此契合。

I was completely taken by it because it was so in keeping with these two books I've I've read.

所以，除了我遇到的杰弗里和玛吉，那里还有格雷厄姆·托宾和弗农·威尔斯。

So, I mean, among as well as Geoffrey and Maggie, who I met, Graham Tobin was there, and Vernon Wells.

帕特里克·柯里恰好也在场，因为他正在帮助一位刚出版了关于十七世纪占星家威廉·利利的书的朋友。

Patrick Curry happened to be there too because, he was helping a friend who had just published a a book on William Lilly and Geneva, William Lilly in the seventeenth century astrology.

所以他帮她，并把她介绍给这群人。

And so he is helping her and introducing her to this lot.

所以突然之间，在一天之内，我遇到了所有我读过他们著作的人，而他们待我如此热情。

So all of a sudden, in one day, all these people whose books I'd read, I'm meeting them, and it was such a welcoming thing.

我和他们度过了一整天，结束时，我感觉脑袋都晕乎乎的，但随后我又回到了家人身边。

And spent the day with them, and at the end, it's like my head's just kinda spinning, but then I rejoined my family.

我根本停不下来地想着他们。

I could not stop thinking about them.

比如，你会说：‘你总得找个时间来我们这儿，去她和贝那儿看看。’

Like, oh, you're gonna have to come and visit us at her and Bay at some point.

所以联系已经建立了，但我当时做的任何占星解读，本质上还是和以前一样，主要是心理层面的本命盘解读。

So the connection had been made, but whatever chart reading I was still doing was still largely what it had been, psychological, natal readings.

直到后来我开始在接下来的几年——96年、97年、98年——去拜访他们时，我才更深刻地感受到他们作为占卜者的身份，对他们而言，占星只是他们世界观中非常重要的一部分，这个世界观还包括塔罗牌、易经、征兆，以及一种观念：我们所处的世界或宇宙，常常会通过发生的事、通过人、通过事件，向我们传递信息或发出信号，只要我们懂得如何解读，这些都可以被视为征兆。

And it was only when I began to visit them in succeeding years, '96, '97, '98, that I got more of a sense of them as diviners, as people who for whom astrology was part of a very important part, but a part of a worldview that include tarot, that include that include I Ching, and included omens, and included this notion that the world or the cosmos as we find it oftentimes has ways of messaging us or signaling us through things that happen, through people, through events that if we know how to read them, are can be taken as omens.

至于这些征兆是否用占星方式解读，那是另一回事，但毫无疑问，他们认为世界充满征兆，或者说，被另一种智慧所渗透，这种智慧会以自己的方式显现。

And whether they're read astrologically or not might be another thing apart, but certainly this notion that the world was omen laden or, you know, was suffused with this other intelligence that expressed itself.

但这种智慧只向那些——我想说——有慧眼的人显现。

But it expressed itself only to people who, I guess, you'd say with eyes to see.

所以我认为，这一点我单靠阅读他们的书是无法获得的。

And so that that, I think, I could not have gotten from just reading their books.

我感觉到，这些人和我之前遇到的许多其他占星师不同。

I had a sense that these people were different than a lot of other astrologers I'd met.

那时我已经见过罗布·汉德了。

I'd met Rob Hand by then.

那时我已经见过不少知名占星师了，比如诺埃尔·蒂尔，尽管他有种种优点。

I'd met a number of people by then, you know, who are well known astrologers, Noel Till, for all of his, well, wonderfulness.

这些人在各种会议、书籍中都留下了印记，但没有任何事像与他们见面、谈论他们所做之事那样深深打动我，仿佛他们的书只是印在纸上，而他们的存在却真正渗入了我的骨髓。

And, you know, these were people who, to my mind, had made a, you know, an imprint at various conferences, at books, and so forth, but nothing struck me the way it their books, I guess, could say, settled into my bones with the meeting of them and talking about what they had done.

我认为，这帮助我转变了对占星术以及实践占星术意义的看法，同时也让我开始思考：我在这里究竟在做什么？

And I think that that is something that helped kinda transform my view both of astrology and what it means to practice it, but also I began to look at, well, what am I doing here?

当我坐下来与人交谈时，我究竟在做什么？

What am I doing when I sit down with people?

一些。

Some.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

我在重读时，有两个想法，我有两点反应。

I'm in rereading, I guess, two points, I have two reactions.

我不得不提到你刚才说的和你讲的故事，但其中一个让我印象深刻的是，当我重读2015年对杰弗里做的采访，并重新阅读他1994年的书时，我发现他阅读面非常广，深入研究了占星术的大量历史，不仅仅是占星术的历史，还包括哲学和思想史。

I had to what you're just saying and the story you're telling, but one of them is that I was struck in rereading and revisiting the interview I did with Geoffrey in 2015 just and reading his book from 1994, how widely read he he was and how much of, like, the history of of astrology that he had gone back and studied, but not just the history of astrology, but also the history of philosophy and thought.

这一点很独特，因为那是1994年。

And that is something that's unique because this is like 1994.

那时，传统的占星术复兴，尤其是希腊化时期的复兴，都还没有真正开始。

So this is really before a lot of the traditional and certainly before the Hellenistic revival had really gotten going.

但他已经对一些古代作者及其当时的情况有了相当深入的理解，这使他能够批判当代对占星术的观念，因为他能清楚看到，当代观念与公元一世纪左右的原始观念有多么不同。

And yet he's already got a pretty deep insight into some of the ancient authors and what was going on back then, which allowed him to critique the contemporary conceptualizations of astrology because he could see how different the contemporary conceptualizations were compared to if you take it back like the first century or so.

第二个让我觉得有趣、直到重新听他采访才想起来的点是，他实际上是从头开始的。

And then the second point that I thought was interesting and that I'd forgotten about until I relistened the interview with him was that he actually started.

他进入占星学时，已经具备了通灵方面的背景，因为他的最初关注点是塔罗牌、易经，甚至还有魔法。

He came into astrology with a background in divination already because his original focus had been things like tarot, the I Ching, and even having a background in magic.

因此，这种通灵背景深刻影响了他进入和理解占星学的方式。

So that really informed how he came into and perceived astrology already having this background in in divination.

我认为这是他生平中一个非常关键的点。

And I think that's a really crucial point in his biography.

确实如此。

It is.

当他遇见我并问我如何进入占星学时，这也是其中一个让我印象深刻的地方，于是我跟他讲了那个故事。

And it was one of the things that when he met me and asked how I got into it and I told him that story.

我跟你提过那位占星师接我这件事。

I told you about the astrologer picking me up.

当然，他立刻就说：哦，她就是你的守护灵。

And, of course, his immediate remark was, oh, well, she was your daemon.

正是她把你带入了占星学。

She's the one that brought you into astrology.

但他很喜欢我曾经有过大约两年的探索期，那时我研究易经。

But he loved the fact that I had had this period of about two years of ferment where I'm looking at I Ching.

我研究塔罗牌。

I'm looking at tarot.

我研究其他各种占卜体系。

I'm looking at other systems of divination.

在我最终选择占星学之前，他说，哦，这非常重要。

And, you know, before I settled on astrology, oh, he said, oh, that's very important.

他说这很重要，因为你是通过占卜的视角进入占星学的。

He said it's very important because, you know, you you were entering it through a lens of divination.

我说，当时我并没有这么想。

I said, I didn't think so at the time.

它吸引我，是因为它有一种机械式的语言，我认为这种语言对任何初学者占星师都有吸引力。

And it did appeal to me because it had this kind of mechanistic language that I think appeals to any beginning astrologer.

你会渐渐明白这一点。

You kinda see this.

你会觉得，哦，这些好像都对得上。

You kinda go, oh, this kinda adds up.

我刚拿到自己的星盘时，做的第一件事，就像很多占星师那样，就是惊呼：哇。

One of the first things I did, like a lot of astrologers do, once I had my chart, was I I was like, oh, wow.

让我看看我母亲去世那天的星盘。

Let me look at the day my mother died.

冥王星正好——精确到分钟——与我儿子形成刑相位。

Pluto was exactly I mean, partile to a minute square my son.

你知道，这种事就像在说：冥王星代表死亡。

Now, you know, this is the kind of thing that it is kinda like, oh, Pluto death.

哦，你知道吧？

Oh, oh, you know?

我看着这个。

And I look at that.

那时你就开始想，哦，这真是对的。

Well that's when these things you think, oh, this is true.

这确实是真实的，而不仅仅是一个象征，它反映了我母亲1971年去世时我所经历的一切以及我正在经历的转变。

This is literally true rather than this is a very powerful symbol of what was happening to me when my mother died in 1971 and the kind of change that I was going through.

我说的是我大学最后一年，本科阶段，你知道，那对我产生了深远的影响。

I said my last year of college, undergraduate year, and, you know, the the profound impact that had.

但确实如此。

But yes.

所以，占卜这个概念，以及他对塔罗牌的着迷程度。

So so that notion of divination and that he was so taken not only by tarot.

他说他十几岁时就做过塔罗牌占卜。

He said he had done tarot readings as a teenager.

他后来接触了《易经》，但那是一种更认真的追求，因为他开始阅读道家哲学，并研究《易经》的哲学内涵。

He got into I Ching, but that was a more serious pursuit because then he began reading Taoist philosophy, and he began to read about the philosophy of the I Ching.

对他来说，这是一种更深入的思考与投入。

So that was a more thoughtful engagement for him.

然后，他接触到了荣格。

And then he encountered Jung.

他说他二十岁的时候。

He said at 20.

我当时想，我的天。

And I'm thinking, holy shit.

在二十岁之前，他已经开始阅读道家哲学了。

Before the age of 20, he's already reading Taoist philosophy.

他早就做过塔罗牌占卜，现在又开始读荣格。

He'd already done tarot readings, and now he's reading Jung.

但他说，荣格作为占星师并没有吸引他。

But he said Jung didn't appeal to him as a as an astrologer.

他知道其中有一些占星符号。

He knew there's some astrological symbolism.

对他来说，荣格更像是一位象征主义者，一个处理符号的人。

It was more Jung as the symbolist, as somebody that dealt in symbols.

所以他觉得这很重要。

So he thought that was important.

但对于杰弗里来说，占卜关乎符号的解读。

But for Geoffrey, divination has to do with the reading of symbols.

因此，第一个从哲学角度理解杰弗里工作重要性的人是帕特里克·柯里。

So one of the first people to understand the significance of Geoffrey's work philosophically was Patrick Curry.

他在《激进占星术》论文中称之为解释学占星术。

He called it hermeneutical astrology in his radical astrology papers.

帕特里克于1981年撰写了一篇非常重要的论文，就在他重返研究生院研究科学史之前，他当时基本上写出了关于17世纪占星术的第一本书。

He's written very important paper by Patrick, written in 1981, 8081, just prior to him going back to graduate school to do his history of history of science and where he basically wrote his first book on seventeenth century astrology.

在这些论文——《激进占星术》论文中，它们是私下印刷的。

And in this these papers, the radical astrology paper, they're privately printed.

大多数论文都非常晦涩，出自这些沮丧的学术占星师之手。

Most of them were completely abstruse, written by these kind of frustrated academic astrologers.

帕特里克可能是其中最清晰的一位，他曾说：看。

Patrick was probably the most lucid in which he said, look.

占星术有不同流派。

There are these different schools of astrology.

有一种科学流派。

There's a scientific school.

有一种心理学流派。

There's a psychological school.

有一种结构主义流派，还有一种诠释学流派。

There's a structuralist school, and there's a hermeneutic school.

因此，他探讨了每一种流派的哲学。

And so he discussed the philosophy of each of those.

他后来在其中一本著作中重新审视了这些观点，基本上摒弃了结构主义占星术，因为实际上除了两三个人之外，根本没人使用。

He he revisited those basically in one of his later books in which he basically got rid of structuralist astrology that nobody was actually using other than, like, three people or something.

但诠释学触及了问题的核心，因为他知道杰弗里曾研究过伽达默尔，以及海德格尔等重要人物。

But the hermeneutics went to the heart of the matter because he knew that Geoffrey had studied Gadamer and had studied, you know, various people, Heidegger, very importantly.

因此，他知道杰弗里研究过所谓的解释理论，或者说，理解解释意味着什么。

And so he knew that Geoffrey had studied, if you will, the theory of interpretation or how what it means to unpack an interpretation.

所以这并不是某个随便的人说：‘算了，算几个星盘吧，这就是我发现的。’

So this was not just some guy who said, oh, cast a few charts, and here's what I've found.

这是一个以完全不同的视角看待占星术的人，他关注的是占星术能揭示出什么样的深层真理。

This is somebody who was looking at astrology with a completely, completely different lens that had to do with what kind of deep truths could it yield to a person.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

还有那种象征和象征性思维的概念。

And that notion of symbolism and symbolic thinking.

一旦你有了这个突破，意识到占星术并不是通过行星直接导致事件发生，而是作为正在发生之事的符号或征兆，你就会开始思考象征的本质、它的意义、运作方式以及它的流动性。

And once you have that breakthrough, that astrology isn't working through the planets, like, causing things to happen, but instead it's acting as signs or omens of things that are happening, then you start to to think about that and delve into the nature of symbolism and what that means and how it works and how fluid that can be.

我认为，正是在这一点上，当我们开始深入这种概念化并探索能用它做些什么时，事情才变得真正有趣。

And that's where I think things get really interesting in terms of starting to lean into that conceptualization and see what you can what you can do with it.

那里有很多非常有趣的内容。

There's a lot of really interesting things there.

是的。

Yes.

确实有。

There are.

我要说的是，

And it's not here's what I'll say.

甚至在他生命的尽头，杰弗里还说：我还在研究这个。

Even at the end of his life, Geoffrey said, I'm still working on this.

我真的想把这件事做完。

I really wanna get this done.

我的意思是，对我们这些了解他所做成就的人来说，简直太惊人了。

I mean, to those of us, you know, who knew what he had done, was like, wow.

你已经做了这么多，太多了。

You have done so, so much.

但对他来说，总有更多事情要做。

But to him, there was always more to do.

这是一项伟大的未竟之业。

This was the great unfinished task.

对他来说，这涉及到我们需要以不同的方式来理解，当我们解读星盘时，我们究竟在做什么。

And to him, it had to do with we need to look at different ways to understand what it is that we are doing when we interpret a horoscope.

因此，他采用了多种方法。

And so he used multiple approaches.

所以，如果你愿意的话，有趣的是，你刚才提到了1994年。

So if you if you will, what's interesting, by the way so you mentioned, yes, 1994.

他说，《占星时刻》系列的主要工作实际上是在1978年到1986年间完成的。

The substantial work for Moment of Astrology had been done basically between 1978 and 1986 is what he says.

我认为《占星时刻》系列的六篇文章，我们确实已经发布在Cosmocritic上，这些文章非常值得深入阅读。

And I think the series of Moment of Astrology series, which we do have posted on cosmocritic, those six articles are really a deep read.

但这是他第一次不仅谈论像克劳狄乌斯那样的天体决定论，还进一步探讨了诠释学，思考我们究竟试图达成什么。

But it's the first time really where he talks about not just the stellar determinism of somebody like Claudius told me, but then he also then looks at hermeneutics, basically, and looks at what it is that we're trying to accomplish.

因此，这是他首次尝试构建一套占星学的哲学体系。

So he's this is his first attempt to put together a philosophy of astrology.

对他而言，这是一项持续进行的工程。

And to him, this was an ongoing project.

所以

So

对。

Right.

我对你论文的评论非常感兴趣，它让我意识到一件事，我以前一直把《占星的时刻》当作1994年的一项标志性出版物。

I was really interested in that in your review of your paper that opened my eyes to something I didn't realize because I always kind of like date the Moment of Astrology to 1994 as this landmark publication.

但事实上，它部分是这样的：在八十年代曾发表过一系列文章，已经初步阐述了这些观点。

But in reality, it's partially what it is is this it's it's there was a series of articles they published in the eighties, which really outlined a lot of those views already.

而《占星的时刻》在某种程度上，是他将这些先前的文章整合成一本著作。

And then The Moment of Astrology represent to some extent, represents him bringing some of those previous articles together into a singular book.

我直到最近才充分意识到这一点，但了解到他的思想是逐步发展、长期积累后才最终凝结成这本书的，这让我觉得更加有趣。

And that actually I didn't realize that as fully as I I could have until somewhat recently, but it made it more interesting to me realizing that his thought, like, developed and he he built it up over a period of time before it eventually culminated in the book.

在我的《定义时刻》一文中，我谈到了英国占星的背景。

In my essay on Defining the Moment, I talk about the English astrological context.

我试图说明一下，看吧。

And I try to give credit to say, look.

这并不是某个人独自在这里单打独斗。

This is not some loner out here doing this all on his own.

他是在一群其他人和占星师的背景下完成这些工作的，但不仅仅是占星师。

He did this in the context of a group of other people and other astrologers, but not just astrologers.

有物理学家迈克尔·沙利斯，有获得文艺复兴音乐博士学位的安吉拉·福斯，当然还有许多来自费城协会的心理学家。

There's Michael Schallis, who is a physicist, Angela Foss, who is a had a PhD in Renaissance music, certainly astrologers, a number of psychologists who are at the Philadelphia Association.

但他第一篇具有重要意义的预言性论文是1978年的《反占星签名》。

But his first significant paper, divinatory paper, is the anti astrology signature, which is nineteen seventy eight.

这比《占星的时刻》出版早了整整十五年。

That's a full 15 before Moment of Astrology was published.

因此，这十五年是思想的孕育期。

So that fifteen year period was the germination.

但你真正能看到的是，从1978年那篇论文——也就是他的第一篇文章——开始，顺便说一句，我在为《宇宙批判》所写的序言中深入剖析了它，因为我仔细研究了它，因为它是一篇极其重要的论文。

But you truly see between 1978 that that publication, that first paper, which by the way, I deeply unpack in a in forward I write to it on cosmocritic because I look at that because it's such an important paper.

这是他第一次明确地说：看。

It's the first time that he's kinda saying, look.

这不是一种因果性的占星学。

This is not an astrology of causes.

它不可能是。

It can't be.

我正在研究一张1975年被随机选出、用于攻击占星学的星盘，该星盘发表在《人文主义者》杂志上。

I am looking at a chart that was picked at random in an attack on astrology in 1975, and it was published in The Humanist magazine.

我正用这张星盘，通过行运和其他占星技术，展示它如何精准地对应了那次攻击的发生时间。

And I'm taking that map and showing how through directions and through other astrological techniques, it times the attack itself.

这简直让人惊叹。

And it's like, woah.

那么，这里的因果关系在哪里？

So where's the causation here?

你知道的，究竟是什么在推动这一切发生？

Where is the you know, what is where's the the thing that's making this happen?

因此，到1978年，杰弗里在 lodge 里与德里克·阿普尔比一起进行大量卜卦占星，并运用卜卦技术解读这份反占星签名星盘，对我来说，这才是真正的转折点。

So the fact that by 1978, Geoffrey in the lodge reading, doing a lot of horary astrology with Derek Appleby and using horary techniques to unpack this anti astrology signature map, that to me is the watershed moment.

这可以说是他命运中的一个时刻，当我提到‘发现’时，我并不想把他和爱因斯坦这样的角色相提并论。

It's it's if it's his time, if you will, of unbelievable kind of when I say discovery, I don't wanna put him in the line like an Einstein.

他是一个以不同视角看待我们所做之事的人。

This is somebody who had a different way of seeing what we're doing.

这篇论文的重要性在于，如果有人回头去研究它，再对比1978年其他发表的内容，根本找不到类似的东西。

And the importance of that paper is that if somebody goes back and looks at it and then you look at what else was being published in 1978, there's nothing like it.

它和当时任何其他作品都相去甚远。

It is hands and feet away from anything else that was out there.

所以帕特里克将其命名为诠释性占星学，确实给了它一个很好的标签，而杰弗里也欣然接受了这个说法。

So Patrick's naming of it as hermeneutic astrology certainly gave it a nice label, one that that Geoffrey did embrace.

但帕特里克没能完全捕捉到他所做之事有多么独特。

What it what Patrick could not quite capture was just how unusual what he had done was.

帕特里克确实理解这一点。

Patrick did understand that.

有趣的是，帕特里克和杰弗里本人一样，都曾与约翰·埃迪合作过谐波项目。

It's interesting because Patrick had worked as had Geoffrey himself with John Eddie on the harmonics project.

很多人会问，杰弗rey一直都是这样的吗？

A lot of people say, well, gee, was Geoffrey always like this?

杰弗rey当时帮约翰·埃迪整理谐波项目的数据，坐在地上，一件件地分类、计数。

Geoffrey, you know, was helping John Eddie sort through data, on his harmonics projects, sitting on the floor, sorting through things, counting up this.

杰弗rey非常感兴趣，想看看占星学是否能有某种所谓的科学、谐波或其他基础。

You know, Geoffrey had a great interest in seeing if astrology could have some, quote, scientific or harmonic or other kind of foundation.

他最终并不认为占星学真有这种基础，但他非常欣赏有人在理论化，提出我们所做的事情可能有另一种解读方式。

He ultimately didn't think it did, but he loved the fact that there are people out there theorizing and saying there might be a different way of looking at what we're doing.

但在我看来，他的工作才是真正经得起时间考验的——我们在这个领域还处于非常非常早期的阶段。

And yet his, to my mind, is the one that I think is stand when I say standing the test of time, we're still it's very, very early on in in this in terms of this.

但我用托马斯·库恩的《科学革命的结构》来评价他的工作：新理论的兴起，并不是因为旧权威们突然说，‘这完全说得通’。

But I talked about his work in terms of Thomas Kuhn's book, Structure of Scientific Revolutions, that the way a new theory comes to prominence isn't because, you know, the old guard kinda goes, oh, this totally makes sense.

而是因为旧权威逐渐退出，新一代的年轻人进来，说：‘我并不那么固守你们的做法。’

It's because the old guard dies out and newer, younger people come in and say, oh, I'm not so wedded to your ways of doing things.

哦，这真有意思。

Oh, oh, this is interesting.

所以杰弗里非常喜欢教初学者，也喜欢教非占星者如何理解象征意义。

So Geoffrey loved teaching beginner students, and he loved teaching nonastrologers how to see symbolism.

他在肯特大学所做的部分工作，就是引导人们看到象征在发挥作用。

And that's some of what he did at the University of Kent was this notion of getting people to see symbolism at work.

当他能做到这一点时，没有什么比让一位初学者、一位非占星者说‘我明白了’更让他开心的了。

And when he could do that, nothing made him happier than to have a beginning student, a non astrologer go, oh, I get it.

这个人的星盘中，海王星位于金牛座，他是个大地神秘主义者。

Neptune in Taurus in this guy's chart, he's an earth mystic.

你知道，杰弗里认为占星师需要具备这种洞察力：我们所做的事情有时非常基础，但却极为深刻，因为世界——或者像我们现在常说的，宇宙——正在向我们传达信息。

Oh, you know, that's the kinda seeing that Geoffrey felt that astrologers needed to be able to do is to say what we're doing sometimes is very, very basic, but it's very profound because the way the the world or as we like to say it now, the cosmos is speaking to us.

是的。

Yeah.

我有个想法，不知道现在提是不是合适，但为了更好地说明我们刚才讨论的内容，我们谈的是它作为一种预兆或象征的作用。

I have a I don't know if this would be a good time to mention it, but to to to sort of, like, illustrate what we're talking about, we're talking about it acting as an omen or a symbol.

你知道，这周你过几天就要出发飞行了。

You know, this week, you're about to fly out in a couple of days.

我们是在2024年9月15日，星期日录制这段内容的。

We're so we're recording this on Sunday, 09/15/2024.

两天后，也就是17号，你将飞往英国参加葬礼，为杰弗里举行追悼会，并在那里发表主要的悼词。

And in two days on the seventeenth, you're gonna fly out to The UK for the funeral and for Geoffrey's funeral, and you're gonna give the the primary eulogy there for him.

我特别注意到，这件事正好发生在17号发生在双鱼座的月食这一周。

And I was really struck by the fact that this is taking place the week of a lunar eclipse in Pisces that's happening on the seventeenth.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我之所以感到震撼，是因为我知道他出生的时间距离一个摩羯座的日食不到24小时。

And and I was struck by that because I know he was born within twenty four hours of a solar eclipse in Capricorn the day he was born.

这让我想起今年早些时候，我做过一期关于普罗克洛斯的节目，他是一位哲学家兼占星家。

And it made me think of Earlier this year, I did an episode on Proclus who was a philosopher and astrologer.

他是公元五世纪雅典柏拉图学园最后几位伟大的领袖之一。

He was one of the last great leaders of the Platonic Academy in Athens around the fifth century.

在他去世后，他的传记作者和学生讲述了一个故事：那一年发生了一次非常显著的日食，人们认为这是普罗克洛斯即将离世的征兆，而他的去世时间恰好与日食相近。

And his biographer and his student way back then after Proclus died, he has this story about how there was an eclipse that took place that year that was really conspicuous in that area and that there was that this eclipse was seen as like an omen of of the death of Proclus that occurred around the time that he died.

普罗克洛斯或他的传记作者莫里努斯曾对此发表过这样的言论：当天空出现如此剧烈的扰动时，人们认为它们是地球上事件的重要征兆，我们将其视为哲学之光被剥夺的预兆，如同日食一般。

And Proclus or Morinus, his biographer actually has this statement about it where he says, When commotions such as this are seen to occur in heaven, they are said to be significant or signs of occurrences on earth, and we take them as portents of the deprivation as it were the eclipse of the light of philosophy.

所以，普罗克洛斯或莫里努斯的意思是，日食象征性地代表了哲学之光在他导师普罗克洛斯去世时被遮蔽或熄灭，这对世界而言是一种巨大的损失。

So it's like Proclus or what Morinus is saying is that the eclipse symbolically represented the light of philosophy being eclipsed or or sort of snuffed out when his teacher Proclus died and that it was a loss for the world.

我觉得这非常有意思，因为人们同样可以对杰弗里产生类似的感慨——他在某种程度上是我们这个时代的思想家与占星家，而这次即将在他葬礼周内发生的日食，似乎也与此遥相呼应。

And I thought that was really interesting because, you know, one could make a similar sentiment about about Geoffrey, who's sort of like the astrologer and philosopher of our time in some sense and just this this eclipse that's happening that that's gonna sort of coincide with the week of his his funeral.

是的。

Mhmm.

你这么说之后，我回去重新计算了1月14日那次日食的星盘。

You know, I went back after you said that, and I cast the chart for the solar eclipse for January 14.

实际上是在他出生的第二天，但确实在1945年1月14日伦敦——他的出生地——出生时间前后24小时内。

It's actually the day after, but, yes, within twenty four hours of Geoffrey's birth for 01/14/1945 set for London, which is his birthplace.

这张星盘非常特别，因为两颗外行星：海王星位于中天，天王星位于第七宫宫头。

And the map's extraordinary because two of the outer planets, Neptune's at the midheaven, and Uranus is at the seventh cusp.

所以，它确实呈现出一种类似‘高克劳效应’的现象，但并非由任何行星构成高克劳相位。

So the fact that it's it kinda has this, you know, Gawclaw effect, but not with any of the planets Gawclaw.

这和海王星以及天王星有关。

Had anything to do with Neptune and and Uranus.

但真正重要的是，火星在摩羯座上升。

But what's important actually is Mars in Capricorn rises in this map.

它有十个百夫长上升。

It's got 10 centurions rising.

火星在摩羯座上升，并对这个显著的海王星形成一个正在逼近且双重逼近的刑相位。

Mars in Capricorn rises and makes an applying and a doubly applying square to this prominent Neptune.

由于海王星是逆行的，在我看来，这象征着杰弗里在占卜领域所投入的能量与工作。

And because Neptune's retrograde, To my mind, that is a beautiful symbol for the energy and the work that Geoffrey did about divination.

所以杰弗里，我想很多人不会觉得，当他被提及时，他会是一个如此土星式的人物，虽然他确实有这一面，你可以说是双重摩羯座。

So Geoffrey I don't think many people would think, oh, when they think of Geoffrey, he was such a Saturnine figure, which there is that element to him, you know, double Capricorn, if you will.

但他的写作，对很多人来说，我说，哦，内容很晦涩。

But and that his writing for many people, I said, oh, it's dense.

令人望而生畏。

It's forbidding.

就这样吧。

It's whatever.

但当你真正了解他时，会发现他有一种轻盈感。

But when you got to know him, there's a lightness to him.

正如我所说，海王星，他非常喜爱海王星与占卜这个概念。

And like I say, Neptune, he loved the notion of Neptune and divination.

如果你去看《占星的时刻》，里面有几章他讨论了超感官知觉、超感官影响以及海王星本身在占卜中的作用。

And if you look to Moment of Astrology, he has a couple of chapters in there in which they he discusses psi, psi psi influence and Neptune itself and its role in divination.

所以当我看到这张星图时，我很喜欢海王星位于天顶这个显著的位置。

So when I look at this map, I love the fact that we have this prominent Neptune at the midheaven.

如果格雷戈里给占星术和占星师世界带来任何信息，那就是占星术比我们那些模糊的理论家所认为的更加奇特、更加非理性、更加不规则。

And if there's any message that Geoffrey brought to astrology and a world of astrologers is that astrology is more peculiar, as he said, more irrational, more irregular than our woolly theorists would have us believe.

他非常喜爱这一点。

And he he loved that.

他热爱占星术的这一点：它无法被简化为这种刻板的科学。

He loved that about astrology that it could not be pinned down to this nuts and bolts science.

哦，好吧，如果你有这个，那就那样。

Oh, well, if you have this, then that.

所以当我看到这次日食星图时，我想，哦，我想他会喜欢这个。

So when I look at this eclipse map, I think, oh, I think he would love that.

而且天王星位于第七宫，如果你愿意这么说的话，也就是他的公众层面，如果他是这幅星图中的上升太阳，如果木星也在第九宫，我认为他会把这视为对他影响的一种征兆。

And the fact that Uranus was at the seventh, if you will, in the map, so kinda his public, you might say, if he's the rising sun, if he's the Jupiter in this map also up in the ninth, that I think he would actually appreciate that as as an omen, if you will, for his influence.

对于任何想知道杰弗里是否与日食有很大关系的人，他曾经就成吉思汗做过一场精彩的演讲。

To anybody who, by the one wonders if Geoffrey had much to do with, eclipses, he had a wonderful talk on Genghis Khan.

你得去占星协会的档案里找。

You'd have to go to the archives of the astrological association.

他做过一场关于成吉思汗横扫亚洲的演讲，并提到了当时发生的几次日食。

He gave a talk about Genghis Khan and his rampage across Asia, and he talks about, several eclipses at that time.

我现在记不清具体细节了。

And I do not have the particulars in my mind right now.

我仍然保留着磁带，这是一场非常精彩的演讲。

I still have it on cassette tape, but it's a wonderful talk.

而且，再次强调，其中充满了 Geoffrey 所著称的那种历史与哲学洞见。

And and, again, it's filled with the kind of historical and philosophical kinda insights that Geoffrey is known for.

但他对日食作为预兆似乎向我们、向更广阔的世界宣告某些事情的方式印象深刻。

But he was very impressed with how eclipses as omens seem to announce certain things to us, you know, to the to a wider world.

所以这不会是他会去做的事情。

So this would not be something he'd go.

这跟我一点关系都没有。

This has nothing to do with with me.

是的。

So Yeah.

我认为这是一个很好的切入点，有助于理解预兆这个概念。

Well, I think that's a good sort of access point for understanding the notion of omens.

比如，日食可能是我们历史上最早引起关注的天象之一；在美索不达米亚文献中，据说曾有三位国王都在日食时去世，这可能成为美索不达米亚人开始认真关注天象预兆并加以记录的关键时刻，进而最终促成了占星术作为文本传统的发展。

Like, because eclipses are probably one of the earliest things in our history where in some of the Mesopotamian literature they say that there may have been a series of three kings who all died on eclipses basically, and that this may have been like a pivotal moment where the Mesopotamians started really paying attention to celestial omens and starting to record them, which then leads to the entire tradition of astrology eventually developing as a textual tradition.

回到之前的话题，因为 Geoffrey 并不只是否定行星因果关系作为占星术根基的观点，他还进一步提出了其他批评，比如他认为占星术是参与性的，他还质疑了‘起源时刻’这一概念，以及其他一些方面，作为他整体批判的一部分。

To go back because Geoffrey is not just rejecting the idea of causation, of planetary causation as being the root of astrology, but he starts getting into other critiques as well about he says that astrology is participatory, that he starts critiquing this notion of the moment of origin as well and a number of other things as part of his critique.

我想我应该解释一下，除了读这本书之外，我之所以如此深入地研究杰弗里的著作，是因为我曾花了几年时间研究占时 astrology 的起源。

I guess I should explain, you know, part of my background where I got really into Geoffrey's work in addition to just reading the book is I got on this trip for a few years about researching the origins of horary astrology.

我之所以关注这个问题，是因为当我开始阅读希腊化时期的文献时，发现几乎没有任何希腊化时期的占星文献专门讨论占时术，尽管占时术在中世纪和文艺复兴时期成为了非常重要的传统。

I ran it because I noticed this thing when I started reading the Hellenistic text, is just we don't have almost pretty much any Hellenistic astrological texts that are dedicated to horary even though horary became such a major subsequent tradition in the Medieval and Renaissance periods.

即使在现代，二十世纪时占时术常常不被重视甚至被轻视，你仍然能找到一些著作，比如艾薇·戈德斯坦·雅各布森或其他人的作品，他们曾写过关于占时术的内容。

Even in modern period in the twentieth century when horary was often not emphasized and looked down on, you could still find a few texts like Ivy Goldstein Jacobson or other people like that who'd written something on the horary.

但在希腊化传统中，占时术明显缺席。

But in the Hellenistic tradition, it was noticeably absent.

于是我注意到了这一点，认为它很重要，因为它影响了杰弗里的研究——他正是以占时术为切入点，主张占时术与其他所有占星形式，包括命盘占星，本质上是一样的。

So I picked up on this and I thought it was important because it impacted Geoffrey's work because he used horary as the access point to say that horary is the same as all other forms of astrology, including natal astrology.

但后来我意识到，我认为占时术在希腊化时期其实已经以某种雏形存在了，因为在选举术传统中，有一些使用‘Qatariq’一词的零星痕迹开始出现。

But what I realized later is I think that horary did exist in a proto form in the Hellenistic tradition because there are a few traces of it starting to emerge out of the electional tradition using the term Qatariq.

但我在2008年丹佛举行的联合占星大会上第一次见到杰弗里时，向他提出的一个观点是：从历史角度来看，他甚至不需要从占卜的角度来论证，尽管对我们今天来说，这是最令人信服的切入点。

But one of the points that I made to Geoffrey when I first met him in 2008 at the United Astrology Conference in Denver was that he didn't even need from a historical perspective to argue from the point of view of divination even though that's the most compelling thing to us today.

但其实，你可以很容易地回到托勒密之前的美索不达米亚传统，那时命盘占星本身就明确被作为一种占卜形式来实践，因此你完全可以从这个方向出发，做出类似的论证，最终也能达到同样的结论。

But it's easy to just go back to the Mesopotamian tradition prior to Ptolemy where even natal astrology was explicitly practiced as a form of divination so that you can make a similar argument just from that direction or or use that way to make the same argument and you sort of get to the same place.

是的

Mhmm.

嗯，回到你提到的日月食作为征兆的问题，他一定会非常欣赏，我也知道他确实这么做过，尤其是日食那种简洁明了的景象——太阳被遮蔽。

Well, you know, to go back to what you said about the eclipses as omens, he would have loved and I know he did this, the simplicity of especially a solar eclipse, the sun being eclipsed.

如果我们把国王看作太阳的象征，太阳落在狮子座，国王本身就是一种太阳般的存在。

And if we think of the king, whether they of the sun the sun sign in Leo, the king is a solar presence.

对吧？

Right?

所以太阳被遮蔽，就意味着太阳般的存在被遮暗，或者说，就是国王的陨落。

So the eclipsing of a sun will be the darkening of a solar presence or in this case, the king.

那么，这是否预示着国王会死亡、被废黜，或类似的事情？

So is that an omen that they will die, be deposed, whatever?

这提出了重要的问题。

The that they raise important questions.

对吧？

Right?

足以让罗马人时期开始禁止占星术的使用，尤其是禁止为凯撒或任何领袖算命，因为他们认为，无论真假，这种信仰都具有强大的象征力量。

Enough so that, what, by the time of the Romans, they began banning the use of astrology, certainly banning its use of, you know, casting this Caesar's horoscope or casting a leader's horoscope because they said, well, whether it's true or not, it has great symbolic, power for those who believe it.

因此，他们觉得这确实是我们需要加以控制、需要设置一些界限的东西。

So to them, they felt like this is something that we do need to control, that we do need to kinda put some guardrails around.

但，是的，我觉得我又有点迷糊了。

And so but, yeah, I I think, again, I get a little lost here.

日食的材料是将占星术视为一种象征性实践的绝佳切入点。

The the I think the Eclipse material is a nice entry into looking at astrology as a symbolic practice.

我很高兴你提到了卡塔尔基，因为那正是那个最初时刻的关键词。

I love the fact that you brought up Qatariq because that was one of those things that, of course, the initial moment.

他将‘卡塔尔基’这个概念引入了现代占星师的视野。

He introduced that notion of katarki to my mind, to modern astrologers.

或许有些专家早就知道这个术语，但正是他让这个概念重新复活了。

There might be a few specialists who said, oh, I knew that phrase, but he resurrected that.

当然，他不仅在专业会议上提到，也在更日常的交流中使用了它。

And, of course, he said it in both technical meetings and then also kind of more everyday meetings.

但对杰弗里来说，它意味着主动性。

But to Geoffrey, it meant the sense of initiative.

当然，它还带有开始和起源等含义。

And, of course, it had those connotations of beginnings and origins and whatever.

但对他而言，它还涉及参与和主动性的概念。

And, but for him, it also had to do with this notion of participation and initiative.

这或许能引出你提到的参与式占星术。

And maybe that's a lead in to when you say about participatory astrology.

他认为，所有好的占星实践都需要那些参与其中的人的投入，无论是接受星盘解读的人，还是解读星盘的人。

He felt like all good astrology did require the participation of those who got involved with it, whether they were people having their horoscope read or whether they were the readers of that horoscope.

但这意味着他们彼此需要，我想这就是我想表达的意思。

But what it did mean was that they needed to be that they needed to they needed to need each other, I guess, is what I'd say about that.

他们需要认识到，占星术是一种强大的参照框架，有可能为某种情境带来启示。

They they needed to see this as what it is, which is a powerful frame of reference that potentially could shed light on a situation.

所以，没错。

So Right.

我一直对他作品中的这一点感到困惑，因为这是他在书中试图论证的一个观点，而我并不完全认同，因为我认为他走得太远，几乎说在我们所从事的大多数占星活动中，根本不存在客观发生的占星现象，就像塔罗牌占卜一样。

That's something I've always struggled with with his work because that was one of the things he started trying to argue in the book that I don't know that I agree with because I think he took it to the point of saying that there is no objectively occurring astrology for the most part when it comes to most of the things that we're doing in the same way that with a tarot card reading.

在塔罗牌占卜中，除非两个人坐下来，客户提出问题，然后占卜者在那一刻抽牌，这时符号意义才被注入，并真正与两位参与者产生关联。

There is no tarot card reading until the two people sit down and the reader is asked a question by the client, and then they cast the cards at that moment, and then it becomes infused with symbolic meaning that's actually relevant to the two participants.

他对卜卦也做了类似的论证，比如大多数时候是占星师从客户那里接到问题，然后为那一刻排盘，此时它才成为具有象征意义的征兆，但若没有这种参与，它本不会存在。

And he made a similar case with horary, for example, where most of the time it's astrologer receiving a question from a client, and then you cast the chart for that moment, and then it becomes symbolically significant as an omen at that moment, but it otherwise wouldn't exist without that participation.

我能理解他为何会提出这样的观点，因为他是从塔罗、易经等不同占卜体系进入占星领域的，而卜卦对他而言变得极为重要。

And I can see why he's making that argument coming into astrology from the different fields of divination like tarot and I Ching and then having horary becomes so important.

但我内心存在一种张力，因为占星似乎确实不同——行星的运行是客观存在的，无论我们是否关注它们。

But there's this tension that I have because it does seem like there is this difference with astrology where the planetary movements are objectively occurring out there regardless of whether we're paying attention to them.

这可能会成为讨论和争论杰弗里作品与遗产的关键点：首先，我需要更深入地理解，他究竟在多大程度上主张，不存在独立于参与之外的客观占星现象。

And that might become a key point of discussion and debate about Geoffrey's work and legacy is the extent to which First, I guess I need to understand more to the extent to which he was saying that there's not an objective astrology occurring out there independent of participation.

其次，占星师们对此持什么看法，以及

And then two, like how astrologers feel about that and

在多大程度上这种观点成立，又在多大程度上有人可能反驳说事实并非如此。

to what extent that's true versus to what extent one might might argue that there is.

所以你可能想看看。

So you might wanna look.

加里·菲利普斯对杰弗里进行了一次采访。

Gary Phillips did an interview with Geoffrey.

我觉得这期内容刊登在《山岳占星》上。

I think it showed up in Mountain astrology.

占星是占卜吗？这重要吗？

Is astrology divination and does it matter?

我们又把它贴出来了。

Again, we have it posted.

这是一次有趣的采访。

It's an interesting interview.

它是在1998年进行的。

It was done in 1998.

而且你知道，加里有哲学背景，于是故意逗他一下，说：嗯，有意思。

And, you know, Gary, having a background in philosophy, decides to tweak his nose and say, well, gee.

好的。

Okay.

那么，我们能不能随便在星历表中选一条线，说这就是答案，或者我们根本不需要星盘？

So couldn't we just randomly pick any line in ephemeris and say, well, this is it, or do we even need a chart?

我们能不能就像发牌一样随意抽一张星盘？

Could we just kinda deal a chart cards or something?

杰弗里说，你看。

And Geoffrey said, look.

这太过分了。

That goes too far.

我们需要占星术所提供的结构。

We do need the structure that astrology provides us.

对他来说，非常重要的是，如果你愿意这么说的话，客观的一面在于：行星确实存在于浩瀚的天穹中，我们可以排出星盘，然后所有占星师都会说，只要软件正确，或者星历表和宫位表无误，我们就能得到一份大家一致认可的星图。

So for him, it was very important that the if you will if you will, the objective, if you wanna say the objective side of it, is the fact that the planets are out there whirling in the heavens, that we can cast a horoscope, and then all astrologers say, well, as long as the software's right or the ephemerides and table of houses are correct, we will get a map that we agree on.

现在，科学家们可能会说，嗯，我们同意这一点。

Now scientists might say, well, we we agree with that.

我们只是不认为从中能得到任何意义。

We just don't think you get any meaning from it.

但他表示，确实存在这样一个客观层面。

So but he said, so there is this objective thing.

但重要的是让人们明白，占星的时刻，是占星师开始解读的那一刻。

But it's important for people to know that the moment of astrology is the moment the astrologer takes up the interpretation.

我们回到关于卜卦的问题。

So go back to the thing about horary.

每一个卜卦都可能有用吗？

Is there is every horary potentially useful?

不。

No.

并不是这样的。

It's not.

事实上，他是那种对卜卦在七十年代末已无立足之地感到惋惜的人之一。

And in fact, he was one he was one of those people that lamented the fact that when horary started to so horary was no place in the late seventies.

到了八十年代中期，至少在英国，占星术已经成熟起来。

By the time by the mid eighties, at least in The UK, a horror had come into its own.

然后这本期刊开始充斥着大量占星文章，这些问题比如：艾滋病是不是一个占星问题。

Then the journal started filling up with horror articles that had these questions like, is AIDS this is a horror question.

艾滋病是人为造成的吗？

Is AIDS caused by man?

那才是一个占星问题。

That'd be the horror question.

或者《圣经》是上帝的作品、上帝的话语吗？

Or is the bible the work of god the words of god?

杰弗里写了一篇回应文章。

And Geoffrey wrote an art a rejoinder.

他称它为‘糟糕的占星’。

He's called horrible horror.

他说我鼓励任何人去读，他在其中写道：这简直是一场闹剧。

He said I would encourage anybody to read in which he said, this is a travesty.

这些人没有资格提出这些问题。

These people have no standing to ask these questions.

意思是，有人在问《圣经》是上帝的话语吗？

Meaning, somebody who's asking, is the bible the word of god?

那么，他们对上帝来说算什么？

Well, who are they to god?

他们对《圣经》又算什么？

Who are they to the bible?

或者关于艾滋病，是谁在提出这个问题？

Or with AIDS, who is this asking?

因此，他从根本上否定了那种认为外部存在一个拥有正确答案的客观宇宙的观点。

So what he fundamentally rejected was this notion that there is this objective cosmos out there that had the right answer.

加里·菲利普斯说过，就像占星术版本的谷歌。

What Gary Phillips had said, you know, the astrological version of Google.

你输入一个问题，就会得到你的答案。

You you type in a question, and there's your answer.

这件事啊，盖里是反对的。

That, you know, Gary rejected that.

杰弗里也明确反对这种说法。

Geoffrey certainly rejected it.

所以他的观点是，星运本身并不能保障任何事。

So what he said is the horoscope by itself does is not a guarantee of anything.

而且就算有人提出问题——首先，顺带一提，那些渐渐了解他的人都会反应过来，说，等等，不对啊。

And just because somebody asks a question well, for one thing, because, again, this is something else that people that got to know him are like, wait a minute.

他在提到这一点时，还探讨了两种占星学形式，他称之为开放形式与封闭形式。

He called him so he talked about two forms of astrology, what he called open and closed forms.

而他本人最初更认同封闭形式的占星理念。

And he was more of a closed form guy at the beginning.

所谓封闭形式，就是他始终严格遵循占星领域的各类规则。以占星命盘为例，存在诸多不能解读命盘的限制条件：比如月亮是否处于空亡期，上升点是否落在某个星座的最初3度或最后3度，土星是否落入第七宫等等；如果触发了这些限制条件却依然解读命盘，在他看来就是错误的做法。

And by closed form, it meant he cleaved to held to the rules of, for instance, horoscopes, if there's strictures against reading the map, whether it was the moon was void of course, whether it's three you know, the rising sign was in the first three degrees or the last three degrees of a sign, whether Saturn was in the seventh, these various structures, the map should not be read, and that to read through a structure was a mistake.

他提出，是否存在某种特殊情况，即便经验丰富的资深占星师也有可能打破这些规则去解读命盘呢？

He said, was there a time would there be a time a very, good experienced astrologer might do that?

也许吧。

Maybe.

但他表示，必须尊重这种参考框架。

But he said that the frame of reference must be respected.

因此，对他而言，天文学层面——也就是行星的运行位置、它们在宫位中的分布、在星座中的位置，以及彼此之间的关系——都必须被尊重。

So for him, the astrology, the astronomy of it, if you will, the planets where they were moving, how where they were in the houses, where they were in the signs, where they were within relation to each other, that that needed to be respected.

然而，这种框架必须被理解为：占星学本身并非客观存在于外部世界。

And yet it needed to be framed as not it might be objectively out there, but the astrology was not objectively out there.

占星学是对这些客观符号的解读，如今已被引入人类的世界。

The astrology was the interpretation of the objective signs in and now it's been put into the world of people.

因此他会说，这就是占星学的时刻。

So he would say, this is the moment of astrology.

就像我几分钟前提到的，你知道那个日食图中的上升火星吗？

When you say, as I did a few minutes ago, you know that rising Mars in that eclipse map?

哇。

Wow.

那是他的工作。

That's his work.

那是他的能量与中天的海王星形成四分相。

That's his energy squaring Neptune at the midheaven.

哦，所以他的声誉，这是第十宫的事情，嗯，技术上是在第九宫，但与中天成合相。

Oh, so his reputation, a tenth house matter well, it's technically in the ninth, but conjunct the midheaven.

他的声誉在于，他的工作传播了海王星、占卜、神秘主义以及占星术中那种难以捉摸的怪异特质。

His reputation is one in which his work spreads the word of Neptune, of divination, of mysticism, of elusive weirdness about astrology.

是的，没错。

Be like, yep.

他可能会对我的观点有些不同意见，但他会说，这是一个合理的看法。

Well, he so he might disagree with particulars of my take on that, but he'd say, it's a reasonable take.

我就同意这个说法。

I'll go with that.

对。

Right.

你刚才谈到占星判断前的考量，而其背后是不同占星师对这些规则应严格遵循还是灵活处理的不同立场，但更深层的问题在于卜卦的‘有效性’——占星图的投射时刻本应是一个重要、紧迫且充满张力的瞬间。

So you were talking about, like, the considerations before judgment and underlying that is the notion different astrologists have different positions on how closely or not to adhere to those, but underlying it is an issue with horary of radicality and that the moment of the divination and of casting a chart is supposed to be this important somewhat pressing like charged moment.

如果卜卦满足这些条件，那么它就是一个独特、唯一的时刻，对求问者而言具有深刻而个人化的意义，这个时刻会以某种神秘的方式回应你。

And if you you meet those conditions with a horary that it's a singular unique moment in time that has personal, especially deep significance to the person that the chart cast for that moment will speak to that moment for some mysterious reason.

但如果你开始提出一些随意的、无意义的或其他类型的问题，占星术中有时确实存在一些规则。

But if you start asking sort of arbitrary or pointless or other types of questions or that there's sometimes rules to divination.

其他形式的占卜也是如此：你不能连续问同一个问题十次，还指望每次占卜都能提供有用或有效的答案。

And that's true for other forms of divination where it's like you can't just ask the same question 10 times in a row and expect each of those divinations to to be useful or to give you something that's gonna be valid.

在卜卦中也有类似的情况：关键在于那个时刻必须具有某种独特性，并被某种力量所充盈，只有当它满足这个条件时，它才会向你传达信息？

And that there's something similar in horary where there's this importance of having a uniqueness to the moment that's charged in some way and that it will speak to you if if it meets that condition?

完全正确。

Absolutely.

非常感谢你刚才所说的这些话。

Thank you so much for saying what you just did.

我认为，我们生命中某些时刻确实会变得充满意义，这一点非常重要。

It's so important, I think, that there is something about certain moments we know in our lives that become charged.

对于占星师来说，我们可能会观察并惊叹：哇。

If for astrologers, we might check or watch and go, wow.

这里到底发生了什么？

What what's going on here?

我们之后可能会为此绘制一张星盘。

We might later on cast a chart for it.

他认为最重要的卜星是当人们在其中有所投入时发生的，他不会说有情感上的利害关系，但我会这么说。

He thinks the most important horror is the most important work goes on when people have he wouldn't say an an emotional stake in the game, but I will.

当人们被某些事情触动时，这就很重要。

What where people are moved by something, it matters.

比如，占星学是《圣经》，是神的话语。

So for instance, the is astrology is the bible the word of god.

有人可能会说：我非常虔诚。

Well, somebody might say, well, I'm deeply religious.

我想知道。

I wanna know.

这从根本上是不可知的。

Well, that's fundamentally unknowable.

他会说，这不属于占星术的范畴。

He'd say this is not the province of astrology.

而且无论如何，这个问题提得不好，虽然并不失礼，但这个人根本没有资格问这个问题。

And anyhow, the question is poorly framed, and it's not impertinent, but it's just as he the person has no standing to ask it.

但如果有人这么说：‘我打开圣经，看到了这段经文，它对我有深刻的意义’，他会说：‘那你可能抓住了什么要点。’

But if somebody says, you know, I opened the bible, and I saw this passage, and it had such deep meaning to me, he would say, now you might be onto something.

所以这跟你有关。

So it has to do with you.

如果你愿意称之为占卜术——随机翻开圣经找到一段极具相关性的经文，他对此不会有任何异议。

That that if you wanna call it a bit of bibliomancy, opening the bible to a random passage and finding great relevance, he'd have no problem with that.

他会说：你知道吗？

He'd say, you know what?

这正是占卜的工作方式：当人们有这种需求时，它就会得到回应。

That's exactly how divination works, that when people have this need, it gets answered.

现在人们是否能得出正确答案，他甚至会反感我这样用词。

Now whether people can derive the correct answer correct, he would even hate my use of that.

他们是否能从中学到有意义的信息，这是另一个问题。

Whether they can get meaningful information from that is something apart again.

所以加里喜欢问人们威廉·利利最喜欢的一句话，你知道的，就是那种‘靠近我的’，我这里要稍作改述。

So Gary loved to ask people William Lilly's favorite, you know, one of those phrases, you know, that those that are near I'm gonna paraphrase here.

那些更接近神的人，基本上能做出更准确的判断。

Those who are nearer to god basically render more accurate judgments.

我认为加里想表达的，利利想表达的，还有我认为杰弗里会说的，是真诚——我称之为精神上的真诚——是做好这项工作的根本。

I think what Gary was getting at, what Lily was getting at, and I think what Geoffrey would say is that sincerity, spiritual sincerity, I'd call it, is fundamental to doing good work.

我认为作为一名占星师，我最大的改变之一就是，当我坐下来和某人交谈时，在为他们排好星盘后，是的，我会去查罗布·汉德怎么说。

And I think one of the major ways that I've changed as an astrologer is when I'm sitting down with somebody, once I've cast their chart and, yes, I will go look at what Rob Hand says.

我甚至会去查一些中点之类的东西。

I will go look at even, like, some midpoint.

我会去看很多不同的东西，看看哪些可能有启示，但之后我会静下心来，自己思考：这个人真正问的是什么？我怎样才能最好地帮助他们？

I will go look at a lot of different things or what might say something, but then kinda sit with the chart myself and think, what is this person asking, and how could I best be of use to them?

这就是我对自己的定位。

That's how I see my role.

我不想听起来太夸张，但我想说，我努力扮演一个从宇宙降压的变压器。

And I don't wanna make sound grandiloquent, but I wanna say that I am trying to act as a, I guess, you'd say step down transformer from the cosmos.

我的意思是，这正是我们占星师所做的事情。

I mean, that's what we astrologers do.

我们说宇宙是有意义的，这与物理学家的说法截然相反。

We're saying the cosmos has meaning, which is in distinction, contradistinction to what the physicists say.

他们认为宇宙只是随机的物质或分子在运动。

We're in a a universe of random matter or molecules moving around.

这其中没有任何意义。

There's no meaning to it.

它只是遵循物理定律运行。

It's it's run on the laws of physics.

我们必须承认，在某种程度上，这种说法是有道理的，但还存在另一个层面——无论我们称它为背后、 beneath、还是 atop，总之它并非不存在。

And we have to say, at some level, there's some truth to that, but there's another level whether we wanna call it behind that, beneath that, on top of that, wherever it is, but it's not there.

那种内在渗透其中，我们的使命就是尽可能找到这种精髓，并用能够帮助他人的语言表达出来。

That inner penetrates that, and it's our mission to basically find that juice and to the extent we can to put that in language that can be helpful to other people.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

For sure.

当然。

For sure.

这其实回到了我们试图阐明的一点：我们在谈论具有象征意义的时刻，这就回到了‘khatarki’这个词，他对此产生了浓厚兴趣，并将其作为论点的核心部分。

Well, it goes back to I think something we're trying to articulate was that we're talking about moments of symbolic significance, and that's where we get back into that term khatarki, which he Mhmm.

比如，当两个人结婚时，他们说‘我愿意’的那一刻就是一个充满象征意义的时刻，这个时刻承载着某种力量，有时人们会为这一刻绘制星盘，因为人们相信这张星盘会作为一个预兆，对这对伴侣未来的命运有所启示。

Picked up and was so fascinated by and made such a central part of his argument that, for example, when two people get married, it's like the moment they say I do is a moment of symbolic significance that is charged and that sometimes people will cast a chart for that moment, for example, in the idea that that chart will act as an omen that has something significant to say for the future of the couple that got together at that moment.

但在某种程度上，真正重要的是那一刻的象征性力量；同样地，出生时刻也具有类似的意义，有时人们会纠结于受孕时刻与出生时刻的差异。

But it's the symbolic charge of that moment that's important in some ways and that you have also a similar thing with the moment of birth where sometimes people get caught up about issues of conception versus birth.

但出生时刻的重要性在于，这是个体与母亲分离、开始独立生命的最具象征意义的时刻；自公元前五世纪以来，占星家们就从这一时刻取象，以此揭示一个人生命中具有象征意义的未来走向。

But the importance of the moment of birth is that is the most symbolically significant moment where the individual, the baby starts their life separate from the mother and that astrologers since the fifth century BCE have been taking their omens from that moment in order to tell them something symbolically significant about what will happen in the person's life.

当你开始明白，你真正寻找的是这些具有象征意义的重要时刻，你就会更清晰地理解自己在做什么，而不是陷入细节，去寻找各种因果联系之类的东西。

When you start understanding that that's what you're looking for is these these important moments of of symbolic significance, then you you really start to understand what you're doing, I think, a little bit more clearly than if you get into the weeds about looking for different like like, a causal nexus of things or something like that.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

你知道的。

You know?

是的。

Yeah.

这正是我想说的，我的意思是，所有占星师都知道这一点。

That that's such I I mean, all astrologers know that.

我认为这正是杰弗里热爱占星术和占星师的原因——无论他们是否同意他的观点，他都知道，任何认真对待占星术的人（而不仅仅是随意玩玩的人），都在不自觉地思考这些问题。

I think this is one of the things that Geoffrey loved about astrology and astrologers is that regardless of whether they agreed with him, he knew that anybody that engaged in astrology seriously, not just some casual kind of thing, but that they were wrestling with these issues whether they knew it or not.

而且他们实践得越多，就越发现占星术具有那种令人困惑、有时甚至带有欺骗性的特质，但有时却又近乎启示般的力量。

And that the more they practiced, the more they found that astrology had that mystifying, sometimes deceitful quality, but sometimes just almost revelatory qualities.

天啊。

Like, oh my goodness.

这里的象征意义表达得如此深刻而具体。

The symbolism speaks so profoundly and so specifically here.

我认为，这正是让那些读他书的人感到沮丧的地方——他们把这本书主要看作一种批判，却没有看到其中丰富的象征意义和星盘分析。

And I think that's the thing that is, I think, maddening to people who read his book, who see it largely as a critique and do not see a lot of the wonderful symbolism and chart work that is in that.

任何对他的判断感到疑惑的人，比如他姑妈的房子，那个租客搬进去后拒绝搬走的房子，其实是一张非常有力的星图。

And anybody who wonders that, his judgment about his aunt and the house, you know, that the the tenant moved into and refused to move was such a powerful map.

它不仅促成了占星师群体的形成，那些曾给他提供建议和指导的人。

It not only led to the development of the company of astrologers, the those group of people who counseled him on what to do and gave him advice about what to do.

但正如我在我的定义中指出的，这张星图并不是在某个事业开端时绘制的。

But as I point out in my defining, this is a map that was not cast at the beginning of an enterprise.

那个人已经在那里住了一段时间了。

The guy had already been living there for a while.

它也不是在结束时绘制的。

It wasn't cast at the end.

它是在杰弗里认为重要的某个特定时刻绘制的。

It was cast at a particular moment that Geoffrey found significant.

我认为任何看过这张星盘并解读它的人，都会发现其中有多重象征意义。

And I think anybody looking at that map and reads it, there's multiple levels of symbolism in it.

在这方面，他喜爱符号的多义性，因为它们可以在不同层面上发挥作用。

And in that way, he loved the multivalent quality of symbols that they could operate at different levels.

所以，你知道，德里克·阿普尔比说：‘哦，你的阿姨得去法庭作证，因为她喜欢帽子。’

So, you know, Derek Appleby said, oh, well, your aunt's gonna have to testify in court because she like and she likes hats.

杰弗里说：‘我阿姨年轻时是个非常戏剧化的人。’

And Geoffrey said, well, my aunt was a very theatrical woman in her younger days.

结果证明，阿普尔比是对的。

Well, it turned out that Applebee was right.

他如何得出她必须出庭作证的判断，他并没有说明。

How he got that determination that she would have to testify in court, he doesn't specify.

但这类事情就像，杰弗里并不认为自己是对的。

But this is the kind of thing it's like, Geoffrey didn't think he was right.