心理治疗中的占星学

因为我认为这正是治疗的另一个关键：理想情况下，我们是在以一种新的方式处理旧有的情境，而治疗师正是这种新方式的化身。

Because I think that's the other thing about therapy is that, ideally, we're working out an old situation in a new way and that the therapist is an embodiment to be able to do that.

是的。

Yeah.

这很有道理。

That makes sense.

这还让我想到，我还没找到一个很好的说法，但我一直称之为占星预测与解读的临时性——作为占星师，如何在这两者之间找到平衡：一方面观察某种现象，形成对它的意义的理解，或预判它可能存在问题，或你们之间可能存在张力；但另一方面，又不形成过于固化的预设或假设，认为事情一定会按最初设想的方式发展，而是让一切自然生长、发展，观察这个原型最终如何显现。

And it also makes me think of like I haven't found a good way to phrase this, but I've been calling it like the provisional nature of astrological prediction and interpretation which is that how to find that balance as an astrologer which would be important here between looking at something and having an idea of what it means or having an idea that maybe that could be problematic or there could be tension between the two of you, let's say in this instance, but then maybe not forming too hard of a preconception or an assumption that it will definitely work out in exactly the way that you suspect that it might at first, but instead letting things still grow and develop organically and see how that archetype ends up manifesting.

我觉得这是个很好的观点。

I think that's a great point.

没错。

And yes.

因为这个特定的相位——我的太阳与他们的土星合相——可能让人感觉是的。

Because that that particular aspect, the my Sun conjunct their Saturn, that could be that maybe the person feels yeah.

也许他们会把父性关怀的积极面投射到我身上。

Maybe they they project the positive aspects of paternal care onto me.

而且，你知道，我们永远无法预知事情最终会如何发展。

And, you know, so we never really know how it's gonna shake out.

我认为，这正是使用占星术的挑战所在，尤其是在心理治疗领域：人们容易陷入‘我知道这代表什么’的确定性思维，而我总是试图以一种‘不确定’的态度进入治疗空间。

And I think that's a part of the challenge of using astrology in general, but especially in the psychotherapeutic space is that there can be this this, oh, I know what this means, and this is and going into it with surety, whereas I'm always trying to come into the therapeutic space with a sense of of not knowing.

因为最终，我们无法真正了解他人的体验。

Because ultimately, we don't know what someone else's experience is.

是的，当然。

Yeah, for sure.

让事情自然生长和发展，观察它们走向何处，这一点非常重要。

That seems really important to let things sort of grow and develop organically and see where they go.

但这是一条需要谨慎把握的中间道路。

But that's a careful middle ground to try to walk.

所以，这绝对是需要留意的一点，比如相位关系。

So that's one thing definitely to be aware of like synastry.

另外，你也提到过首次咨询的星盘，也就是第一次会面的星盘，有时也具有非常重要的意义。

And also, know you've mentioned the consultation chart of the first session, like essentially the first meeting chart is also sometimes being very, very relevant.

是的。

Yes.

而且我认为，咨询星图更需要时间去孕育和理解，哦，原来这就是……因为即使确实如此。

And I think that even more So the consultation chart is something that I think needs time to blossom and for us to understand, oh, this is what because even yeah.

我们见面并工作数月甚至数年，有时要过很久才能明白，哦，原来治疗真正关注的是什么。

We meet and we work for a period of months or years sometimes, and sometimes it's not for quite a while that we understand, oh, this is what the therapy is actually about.

尤其是当我们谈论深度心理治疗，大量处理潜意识和关系模式时，有人可能因为焦虑、抑郁或关系问题而来，这些问题或许最终得到了解决。

Especially when we're talking about depth psychotherapy, working a lot with the unconscious and relational patterns, Someone may come in because they're experiencing anxiety or depression or a relationship challenge that they wanna figure out, and then that may be resolved.

但还有更多。

But then there's there's more.

还有别的东西是他们想深入探索的。

There's something else that that they want to get into.

我认为咨询星图能提供一些线索，让我们对此有所感知，但看到它如何绽放和发展，真的非常棒。

And I think that the consultation chart can be an inkling into that and and give us a sense for it, but then it's really cool to see how it blossoms and develops.

然后我可以几乎带着回顾的眼光来看待咨询星图，以理解一些已经发生的事情，因为这能帮助我明白，我们究竟做了什么，以及这个人在这个人生阶段真正是什么样子？

And then we can I I like to look at the consultation chart almost in retrospect to understand a bit of what's happened as well because that helps me understand, yeah, what it is that we've done and what this person is really about also in this phase of their life?

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

For sure.

这可以追溯到荣格，他提到占星术与那一刻的特质相关，那一刻的特质会留下印记。

It's that which goes back to Jung and that quote about astrology being connected to the quality of that moment and the quality of the moment imprinting things.

当你开始任何一项新的重大事业时，这一点都成立——你可以为那一刻绘制星盘，它在某种程度上会反映这一点。

And that's true for any time you start a new major venture that you can cast a chart for that and it will reflect that to some extent.

但在这里，这一点尤为重要且独特：你实际上拥有一个类似首次会面的星盘，某种程度上，你与客户之间连接的品质在首次会面的瞬间就被描绘出来了。

But that's really important and unique where in this instance you actually have what is essentially like the first meeting chart and like the quality of the connection between you and the client in some way being described in the moment of your first meeting in some ways.

是的。

Yes.

伊冯娜·史密斯·塔纳斯的论文对此进行了非常深入的探讨，她讨论了相位关系图和咨询星盘，有时我们能观察到一些主题，比如：哦，这里有一个相位关系。

Yvonne Smith Tarnas' dissertation really explored this in a very thorough way where she talked about the synastry as well as the consultation chart where sometimes there are themes where we can see like, oh, there's this synastry.

比如说，客户和治疗师之间存在土星与月亮的相位，而此时行运月亮恰好也与这一相位关系形成某种关联，就像三张星盘彼此交织在一起。

Like, let's say there's a Saturn moon connection between the client and the therapist, and then the transiting moon happens to also make an aspect to that synastry as well or something like that, where it's like all three of the charts sort of connect in together.

我觉得这可能会变得有点复杂和抽象，但即便如此，它仍然非常有趣，尤其是当你想：好吧。

And I think that can get a little complicated and a little heady, but but but also nonetheless, like, really interesting again to look at, especially if you're like, okay.

这里到底发生了什么？我们在做什么？我该如何理解这一切？

What's actually happening here and what are we doing and how do I make sense of this?

是的。

Yeah.

这真的非常迷人，而且非常重要。

That's really, really fascinating and really important.

所以这就回到了你之前说的，这样做的目的在于理解、验证和强化客户正在经历的事情。

So it kind of brings us around where you had said that the the purpose of this would be like understanding, validating, and amplifying what is happening and and things with the client.

你能详细解释一下你这句话的意思吗？

Could you expand on what you mean by that?

对。

Yeah.

所以我认为，当我们把占星学带入与客户的对话中时，我喜欢跟随客户的节奏。

So I think that when we're going to bring astrology into the room with the client, I I like to follow the client's lead.

我认为，理想情况下，这应该由客户自己提出，比如他们想谈论的某个话题。

I think that it ideally should come from the client, like, something that they want to talk about.

我总是尽量少表达我对星象过渡的看法。

And I always like to say the the least amount possible as far as what I think the transit is.

有时候，如果有人这么说，哦，是的。

And sometimes if, you know, someone's like, oh, yeah.

因为我在经历土星回归，或者我有这个该死的土星刑月相位在出生图中，我必须提醒自己不要说：‘当然，你会有这种感受，因为月土相位非常困难，意味着X、Y和Z。’

Because I'm having, you know, my Saturn return or I'm having or I, you know, I have this darn Saturn square moon aspect in my birth chart, and I I have to, you know, stop myself from saying, oh, well, of course, you would feel that way because, you know, moon Saturn is really difficult, and it means x, y, and z.

相反，我会说：‘那么，对你来说，月土相位意味着什么？’

Instead, I would say, well, so what does what does moon Saturn mean to you?

你在生活中是如何体验它的？

How do you experience that in your life?

这给了他们机会，本质上是教我这个相位对他们而言意味着什么，以及如何与他们的个人生活相关联。

And that gives them the opportunity to, essentially, to teach me what that means to them and how that correlates to their individual life.

从那里开始，我可以进一步补充，当然，如果他们提问的话。

And from there, I can add more to that, and I can add more if they ask, of course.

但我总是非常好奇，一个人是如何在个人生活中体验这种星象过渡的。

But I'm always very curious about how someone experiences the transit to their personal life.

比如，你能举些例子，说明你是如何看到它在你生活中显现的吗？

Like, what are some examples of the way that you see that showing up in your life?

你注意到了哪些关联？

What connections are you seeing?

我可能比他们看到更多的关联，但我希望非常谨慎地分享这些，因为让客户自己得出领悟和理解至关重要。我认为这就像他们心中有一朵脆弱的花，代表着他们对正在发生之事的理解。

And it's possible that I may see more connections than they do, but I wanna be very cautious about sharing that because it's so important for the client to come to their own realization and understanding and to I think of it as like it's like they have this delicate flower that is their understanding of what's happening.

如果我贸然介入，就像一脚踩碎了这朵花，阻碍了它更充分地绽放。

And if I walk into it, I'm, like, smashing that, and I'm not allowing it to bloom more fully.

这其实是一个非常重要的观点。

That is actually a really important point.

我想再回过头来谈谈第二种情况可能存在的问题，也就是在咨询过程中主动运用占星术——如果你的占星方法与客户的理解方式不同，这可能会是个大问题。

Want to circle back to that about a potential problem with like scenario number two which we're about to get into which is actively using astrology within the context of consulting session which is like what if your approach to astrology is different than the approach that the client is having which can be a huge problem.

但我想先总结一下上一部分。

But I just want to wrap up the previous section.

我们之前在讨论被动地使用占星术。

We were talking about using astrology passively.

一个人，比如治疗师，完全可以通过被动的方式使用占星术，来更好地理解客户，验证他们的观点，并放大他们所说的一些内容——这些内容可能与其出生图的不同层面、占星时间技术、你与客户之间的相位关系，以及首次咨询时的占星图表有关，这些都能为你提供额外的有用信息，作为治疗师，你可以相对被动地运用它们，而无需在咨询中主动提及，这种方式同样是完全有效、合理且有用的。

There's an entire way that a person, a therapist could use astrology passively just to help better understand, to help validate the perspective of the client and to amplify some of the things they're saying that can be operating on these different levels of their birth chart and knowledge of it, timing techniques, knowing the synastry between you and the client, and finally the consultation chart of your first session that just gives you additional helpful information that you can use somewhat passively as the therapist, but not necessarily that's being brought into the session itself and that that can be perfectly valid and effective and useful.

是的，完全正确。

Yes, exactly.

说得真好。

Well said.

好的，太好了。

Okay, cool.

所以第二个场景是你提到的，那就是我们更主动地将占星术带入咨询中，即公开地讨论它。

So scenario two is that you started talking about is that there's another scenario where we bring astrology into the session much more actively in that it's actually actively being discussed openly.

你说在这一点上，你有时会尝试让它自然浮现，尤其是由客户自己提出来。

And you're saying that point one for you with that is to do it in a way you sometimes try to let it arise, especially from the client themself.

你说如果客户本人对占星术感兴趣？

And you're saying that if if the client themself has an interest in astrology?

是的。

Yes.

我认为这取决于客户以及他们的个性。

And I think it's, you know, it's gonna depend on it's gonna depend on the client and what they're like.

在我的实践中，我非常坦诚地表明自己是一名占星师，如果客户感兴趣，我会让他们知道我会将占星纳入治疗过程。

My practice, I'm very open that I'm an astrologer, and I I tend to let people know that I incorporate astrology into the therapy process if they like.

对于那些对此比较低调的人，我想你会慢慢感受到的。

For someone who maybe is a little bit more private about it, I think, you know, you'll get a feel.

如果一个人对占星感兴趣，他们自然会谈到占星和治疗，我觉得是这样。

People are gonna talk about astrology and therapy if they're into it, I think.

如果他们没有提到，我觉得他们应该主动提。

And I if not, I think they should.

但无论如何，作为治疗师，在治疗过程中，这从来不是我的议程。

But, yeah, I I think always, it's like the the time the time in therapy as as a therapist, it's not my agenda.

我不掌控这个过程。

Like, I am not in charge of this process.

一直都是客户在主导。

It's like the client is always in charge.

如果他们想引入什么，那就随他们吧。

And if they're wanting to bring something in, it's like, okay.

是的。

Yes.

到底是什么想要浮现出来呢？

Like, what what wants to come in?

我认为，想引入这一点的一个挑战在于，我们对占星术会变得非常兴奋，会想：天啊。

And I think that that's one of the challenges of wanting to bring this in is that we get really excited about astrology, and we're like, oh my gosh.

如果你知道你正在经历这个星象过渡，你的生活就会轻松多了。

Like, if you only knew that you were having this transit, then, you know, you would just it it would make your life so much easier.

我认为我们需要稍微现实一点，记住这应该是客户想要的。

And I think that we need to, like, kinda reality check that a bit and and keep in mind that this is what the client wants.

如果客户希望引入占星术，那自然就会发生。

And if the client wants to bring in astrology, that will happen organically.

是的。

And yeah.

对。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

所以那个，是的。

So that yeah.

所以如果客户想和你讨论他们正在经历土星回归，或者他们意识到金星逆行的影响，并且已经在心里将它和当前的感情状况联系起来。

So if the client like wants to discuss that they're like going through their Saturn return with you and they wanna process that or if like if they're aware of that Venus retrograde transit and they're already in their mind connecting it with what's going on with the relationships.

那么你们两人就能使用这种共同的语言作为切入点，来探讨当事人生活中发生的那些事情。

So the two of you then share then a common language that you're using as an access point to discuss some of those things that are going on in the person's life.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yeah.

回到你提到的，我不记得你是怎么表述的，但如果治疗师和客户使用不同的系统，不同的占星体系，那确实会。

And to bring it back to you mentioned I can't remember how you language this, but if the if the therapist and the client have different systems that they use, different astrological systems, what to Yeah,

这似乎会是个大问题。

that seems like it would be a big issue.

这似乎会是个大问题，因为我知道即使对占星师之间交流来说，这已经是个问题了，更不用说在普通的纯占星解读情境中了。

That seems like it'd be a big issue because I know that's already an issue just for astrologers, well, astrologers talking to astrologers, but also in the context of a normal purely astrology reading.

假设占星师采用一种方法，而客户却有另一种方法，他们想就某种视角或技术提问，但占星师并不使用这种方法，那么就会出现某种脱节。

Let's say it can be difficult if the astrologer has one approach, but then the client has a different approach and they're wanting to ask questions about a perspective that or a technique, let's say, that the astrologer doesn't use, then there's kind of like a disconnect there.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

我对这个问题有几点不同的想法。

I have a couple of different thoughts about this.

我认为第一点是，这正是为什么我们作为占星师掌握多种技术或精通不同体系如此重要的原因。

I think number one, this is why it's so helpful for us as astrologers to be multilingual or well versed in different techniques.

我认为这真的很有帮助。

I think that that can be really helpful.

当你提到这一点时，我忍不住笑了，因为我的治疗师也是占星师，但她使用的体系和我不一样。

And I I laugh when you brought this up because my therapist who is an astrologer, she uses a different system than I do.

我并没有觉得这成了问题，我认为这是因为几个不同的原因。

And I I haven't found it to be an issue, and I think that's because when for a few different reasons.

我认为，如果我们对某个体系过于执着，那么这就会成为一个挑战。

I think I think the challenge of that is if we feel really attached to our system, then it becomes a challenge.

当客户说，是的，我是这样体验的，或者我正在经历某种情况，而我们或许可以讨论一下——我一时想不出除宫位体系之外的其他例子。

And when when the client is like, yeah, this is how I experience this or I'm experiencing and maybe we could talk about an I'm having a hard time thinking of an example other than house systems.

这正是我目前能想到的。

That's just what's coming to mind.

因为我有很多客户，我使用的是整宫制。

Because I have a lot of folks who I use whole sign houses.

很多人使用普拉西杜斯系统。

A lot of folks use Placidus.

我处理这个问题的方式是使用他们所用的系统，我对这种方式感到很自在。

And the way that I handle that is I'll use the system that they use, and I feel comfortable with that.

我认为可能还有一些其他技术会更具有挑战性，也更别扭一些。

I think maybe there's other techniques where that's a little more challenging, a little more clunky.

但我会完全听你说说你实际体验到了什么。

But I'm, like, totally, you tell me what it is that you're experiencing.

我不需要非得用我的系统。

Like, I don't need to use my system.

当然，我会用，因为我喜欢它。

Like, I will, of course, because I like it.

但我更关心的是什么能引起客户的共鸣，以及他们如何将这些与自己的生活联系起来，因为这与我个人对占星术的偏好无关。

But I'm always more interested in what resonates with the client and how they're linking that to their life because that has nothing to do with my preference for astrology.

这真正关乎他们，以及对他们而言什么是重要的。

Like, it's really about them and what is meaningful to them.

是的

Yeah.

我认为这确实体现了一种根本性的差异，即当你仅仅作为一名占星师进行占星解读时，你谈论的是你所使用的系统，因为你认为它最有效，因此你会以此为基础来告诉对方关于他们生活的情况。

I think that does show a fundamentally different An important difference in like orientation between somebody If you're just an astrologer and you're doing an astrological reading and you're talking about the system that you use because you think it's the most effective and therefore that's going to be your basis for telling the person about their life.

在这种情况下，客户的角色在某种程度上更像是顺应你所雇佣的占星师所使用的系统，尤其是当他们想要获得这种建议时，而不是去寻找使用其他系统的另一位占星师。

And in that context, it's almost more the client's role to sort of go along with to some extent the system that the astrologer that they've hired is using if that's the advice that they want to get versus going to another astrologer that uses a different system.

但在这个语境下，你所说的非常合理，因为如果你作为一名治疗师，你的核心导向是理解这个人以及他们如何构想自己的生活，允许他们表达自己，并使用任何对他们有意义的切入点，那么你就不再是作为占星师去告诉对方他们的生活是什么样，也不是去给出明确的解读。

But in this context, that makes a lot of sense what you're saying because if part of your orientation as a therapist is just understanding the person and how they are conceptualizing their life and allowing them to speak on that and use whatever access point that's relevant, then it's less about you telling the person what their life is as an astrologer and giving a delineation.

相反，你只是在某种程度上将占星术作为一种你们双方都精通的语言来使用，就像你是一名治疗师，你的主要语言是某种语言，但来访者却更习惯用另一种语言交流。

But instead, you're just using the astrology itself to some extent as being used just as a language that the two of you speak that you're fluent in just as in the same way like if you were a therapist and you have a primary language, but somebody comes to you and they speak a different primary language that they would feel more comfortable speaking to you in.

如果你恰好能流利使用他们的语言，就能更有效地建立连接，从而更好地促进你所进行的治疗过程。

And if you happen to have fluency in that language that you can connect more effectively, it helps to facilitate what you're trying to do with the therapy itself.

这听起来正是你所描述的情况。

And that's what you're describing it sounds like there.

是的

Yes.

我喜欢你用的‘切入点’这个词，这正是我在治疗中使用占星术时的想法：我们如何进入一个人的体验？

And I love the term that you use access point because that's the way that I'm thinking about it when That's the way I'm thinking about astrology when we're using it in therapy is it's like, okay, how do we get in to what someone is experiencing?

比如，我们如何进入潜意识，或那些未言明的部分，那些我们尚未意识到的事情，又该如何探索它们？

Like, they're how do we get into ideally, you know, the unconscious or the unsaid or what what is going on here that we're not aware of and how do we explore that?

这可能是整个星盘。

And that could be the whole needle chart.

也可能是他们金星逆行的关联。

That could be their correlation of venous retrograde.

但这并不是关于金星逆行本身。

But it's like, it's not about venous retrograde.

而是关于他们对金星逆行的体验，或者任何其他东西，是的。

It's about their experience of venous retrograde or whatever Yeah.

它

It

这很有道理。

That makes a lot of sense.

不过我认为，偶尔你可能会遇到问题，比如当一个人受到另一位占星师所使用的一种技术的困扰，而你个人可能认为那种技术是错误的；或者当这个人对某种事物变得痴迷，甚至因此受到负面影响时，你是否负有责任去说：‘我不确定那个技术是否正确’，毕竟占星界内部对哪些技术是‘正确’的一直存在诸多争论。

I do think you could run into issues though occasionally if you ran into a situation where it's like the person thinks about and has become disturbed about a technique that they heard from another astrologer that you personally might think is wrong or where if the person's becoming obsessed about something that's become detrimental, at some point whether you have an obligation to be like, Hey, I'm not sure if that technique is I don't want say true because obviously we're getting all these debates in the astrological community about what techniques are true or whatever.

但如果 hypothetically，假设有一种说法极其离谱，严重扰乱了客户的内心平静，而作为占星师，你认为它其实并没有客户想象的那么重要或有说服力，你是否会觉得有必要告诉他们这一点呢？

But if there was hypothetically, let's say something that was really off the wall that's disturbing the peace of mind of the client and if you as an astrologer think that maybe that's not as important or compelling as they think it is and that you maybe feel like compelled to tell them that?

是的。

Yes.

我觉得这是一个很好的观点。

I think that's a great point.

坦白说，我认为即使在为客户解读星盘时，也可能发生这种情况——我所说的某句话可能会引发他们的恐惧或不安。

And frankly, I think that that kind of thing can happen even when I'm looking at the chart with the client, there could be something that I say that that invokes fear or dread and you know?

我认为，对于一些更具挑战性的星盘特征，比如第八宫或第十二宫，往往存在很多负面的解读，容易引发恐惧。

I think there's a lot of negative delineations around some more challenging chart signatures, like the eighth house or the twelfth house.

这些解读确实容易激起大量的恐惧。

Like, there's a lot of fear that's invoked in that.

而且我认为，就连我自己也觉得，是的。

And I think that even I think that yeah.

我觉得这是占星术的一个危险：它本应带来希望和理解，却可能引发恐惧或负面情绪，是的。

Like, I think that's a danger of astrology is that it can instead of inspiring hope and understanding, it can bring about fear or something challenging and Yeah.

你请说。

Go ahead.

对。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我想到的是最糟糕的情况，比如有人听到占星师说他今年会死之类的话。

I mean, I guess I was thinking of like the worst case scenario where somebody's like, this astrologer told me I was gonna die year or something like that.

我认为这种情况并不常见，而且大多数占星师都会认为这是不道德的。

And I don't think that's a common thing and I think most astrologers would say that that's unethical.

我一直拖着没做一期关于占星术与死亡话题历史的完整内容，因为这非常棘手。

I've really been putting off doing a whole episode about astrology's whole history with that topic and the topic of death in general because it's very tricky.

但当情况极端到那种地步时，作为占星师，你或许更有能力去安抚对方，告诉他们：占星术本质上更是一种原型和象征系统。

But when it was something like, let's say extreme like that, and then as the astrologer, maybe you have more of an ability actually to maybe be able to pull them back from that and say, astrology tends to be more of an archetypal and symbolic system.

因此，过于执着于这样的预言可能并不健康，最终也可能不会应验。

And so becoming too attached to some prediction like that might not be healthy and it might not end up being true in the end.

所以，也许你能够提供这种视角，在人们以不太有益或非疗愈的方式使用占星术时，帮助他们调整回来，同时在批评其他占星师或其他占星体系或方法时保持合理范围。

So maybe that's where you could be helpful in being able to have that perspective and maybe pull them back if they're using the astrology in a way that's maybe not as helpful or healing within reason in terms of criticizing like other astrologers or other systems or approaches to astrology.

是的。

Yeah.

我喜欢这个观点。

I like that.

而且，好吧。

And that it's like, okay.

听起来像是，如果有人说，嗯，一位占星师告诉我——我希望没人真这么说——一位占星师告诉我我将在几年内去世，我会想说，好吧。

It sounds like this maybe if someone says, yeah, an astrologer told me, which I hope that's not what anyone is saying, an astrologer told me that I'm gonna die in x amount of years, I would want to say, okay.

你能详细说说他们说了什么吗？

Like, can you tell me more about what they said?

让我们看看你的星盘，一起分析一下，看看我们能发现什么。

And let's let's look at your chart, and let's see and, you know, let's see what we can figure out here.

哦，你知道吗，我能理解他们可能看到了，比如这个冥王星行运或相位。

And, oh, you know, I can see how they may have maybe they saw, you know, this Pluto or whatever transit or aspect.

而且，我觉得这也可能意味着x、y和z。

And, you know, I would say that also maybe means x, y, and z.

就像你刚才说的，克里斯，事情可能更具象征意义，哦，你已经和这位占星师合作很长时间了。

And like you just said, Chris, that things can be more symbolic and oh, so you've been working with that astrologer for a long period of time.

好的。

Okay.

你知道吗，当你见到他们时，你觉得有帮助吗？

You know, are you finding it helpful when you see them?

当你见到他们时，你感觉如何？

How do you feel when you see them?

现在谈论这个，你感觉如何？

How do you feel talking about this now?

我刚才说的哪些内容让你有共鸣，或者没有？

What what about what I just said resonates with you or or not.

而且，是的，我觉得这甚至可以成为一个切入点。

And and, yeah, I think even that can be an entry point.

但确实，这肯定很有挑战性。

But but, yeah, definitely challenging for sure.

当然。

Sure.

毫无疑问。

For sure.

是的。

Yeah.

这里有一个相当棘手的问题。

There's a lot of there's a tricky issue.

也许这个问题太大了，难以深入，但它确实引出了一个我们即将讨论的附加话题，那就是：在治疗过程中使用占星术可能存在禁忌，或者在某些情况下，占星术并不合适，或者对某些人不适用？

Maybe that's too big to get into, but it does bring up a whole side topic we're gonna talk about which is, you know, that there may be contraindications for using astrology in a session or instances where maybe astrology wouldn't either be appropriate in that context or wouldn't be appropriate for certain people?

是的。

Yes.

一个经验法则是，基本上将占星术融入治疗过程中。

Rule of thumb is essentially incorporating astrology into the therapy session.

我认为这和梦境解释之类的东西也是一致的：对于那些经历严重心理病理问题、难以区分象征与现实的人，这并不理想。此外，对于那些本来就倾向于将力量外化的人也不太合适，比如我如果发现某人总是说：‘哦，这个星象运行正在影响我生活中的事情’，或者他们以一种被动受害的方式谈论占星术，似乎剥夺了他们对自己生活的掌控感和自主权——在这种情况下，我真的很想减少甚至完全避免使用占星术，因为对这些人来说，真正需要的不是洞察、觉察或这些观念和理解。

I think this goes along with things like dream interpretation as well, is that it's not really ideal for folks who are experiencing extreme psychopathology, for folks who are having trouble telling the difference between symbol and reality, And then for folks who maybe simply tend to assign power outside of themselves already, like they are already looking to so for example, if I'm finding that someone tends to say, oh, you know, this transit is making this happen in my life, or they're talking about astrology in a way that either they're a victim of it or that that it seems to take away their power and control and autonomy in their life, like, I'm really gonna wanna dial that back and even maybe not use it because it's it's because insight and awareness and, like, you know, these, like, ideas and understanding, that's not really what those folks need.

这些人真正需要的是扎根于现实生活，获得更多的心理边界，而不是被各种看似酷炫有趣的想法和联系所淹没。

What those folks need is being grounded in the in the physical reality of life and having more containment, so to speak, versus having all of these cool and interesting ideas and connections.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

For sure.

是的，我认为确实存在不同类型的人格：一方面，我们可以区分一个人是用占星术来增强自我力量，还是用它来削弱自我力量；如果是后者，那可能就不健康，也不是好事。

Yeah, I think there's definitely different personality types where sometimes on the one hand, the distinction we might make is between somebody that's using astrology and they're using it in a way that's empowering them versus if there's somebody that's using it in a way that's disempowering them, then that might not be healthier, it might not be a good thing.

或者，我有时会看到某些人格类型，如果一个人特别容易陷入极端的——姑且这么说——阴谋论，那么占星术有时可能帮不上忙，反而会加剧这些问题，或者让他们以一种不太健康的方式去使用它。

Or there's certain personality types that I see sometimes if a person is given more towards really extreme, let's say like conspiracy theories for lack of a better term, something like astrology sometimes can not be very helpful because it can just exacerbate some of that or they can start using it in a way that might not be very healthy.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得是的。

I think yeah.

加剧是一个很好的说法，我们不希望那些已经脱离自我的人继续这样下去，是的。

Exacerbate is a good way of saying it is we don't want to someone that's that's already living outside of themselves and yeah.

我们不希望继续这样下去。

Like, we don't we don't wanna we don't wanna continue that.

我们希望保持更接地气的状态。

We wanna keep things more grounded.

我认为，本质上，将占星术纳入治疗过程，应该促进客户与自我的连接，增强他们的自我感，同时也理想地促进治疗关系。

And I think, you know, essentially, having astrology as a part of the process, it should foster the client's connection to themselves and and having, like, a a stronger sense of self and then also ideally foster the therapeutic relationship as well.

所以，如果这些都没有发生，那么占星术可能并不适合这个特定的人。

And so, you know, if that's not happening, then maybe it's not a right fit for that particular person.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

For sure.

尤其是，正如我之前所说，如果一个人有严重的妄想，那么在这种情况下，占星术可能没有帮助。

Especially if like, I guess what I was saying with the previous comment is especially if a person's having like extreme delusions of some sort, the astrology may not be helpful in that context.

这可能不是我想说的会加剧问题的事情，但对某些人来说，它确实不一定能带来帮助。

It may be something that I don't want say makes that worse, but for some people it's potentially something that certainly is not necessarily going to help.

我认为作为占星师，我们总是陷入一种心态，认为占星术很棒，是个很酷的工具。

I think as astrologers, we always get into the mindset that astrology is great, it's such a cool tool.

当然，如果更多人了解占星术，它一定会改善人们的生活，让社会变得更好，或者类似的说法。

Surely, if it was more widely known about this would always help people in their lives and it would make society better or whatever.

但我认为有时某些人可能并不会从占星术中获得太多帮助，对此你确实需要保持一点谨慎。

But I think there's sometimes instances where certain people maybe, you know, astrology doesn't help them as much and that you do have to be a little careful about that.

当然。

Definitely.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Sure.

好的。

All right.

那很好。

So that's good.

那我们继续吧，因为之前我们还提到一些其他内容，我想我们其实已经进入了一些关于伦理考量的其他部分。

So let's move on because we had some other I mean, I guess we're already getting into some of these other sections in terms of ethical considerations.

但我们也打算谈谈如何在本应用的背景下理解占星术，也许现在是个不错的时机来讨论这个。

But also, we were gonna talk a little bit about how to conceptualize astrology within the context of this application and maybe this maybe this would be a good time to do that.

好的。

Yes.

我很乐意。

I would love to.

是的。

Yeah.

我对此思考了很多，我认为当我们把占星术视为类似于心理治疗中使用梦境、自由联想或积极想象的方式时，我们就能开始消除将占星术与治疗结合使用的污名化观念，因为梦境本质上是一种心理治疗技术。

So I I thought about this a lot and I I think that we can start to destigmatize the idea of using astrology and therapy when we think about astrology as the way that we may use dreams in psychotherapy because or, you know, dreams or free association or active imagination because the dream is essentially it's a psychotherapeutic technique.

就是这样。

It's like, okay.

比如，你最近怎么样？

Like, what's happening with you?

我们如何理解这些符号之间的关联？

How do we see how the symbols relate?

我们只是以同样的方式使用占星术。

And we're simply using astrology in that same way.

我认为这样会让占星术显得不那么可怕，也更容易被理解。

And I think that that makes astrology seem sort of less scary and sort of contextualizes, okay.

我的意思是，我们到底该怎么把它融入进来，你明白吗？

Like, you know, how do we actually bring it in, if that makes sense?

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得是这样。

I think so.

就像一个人做噩梦，梦里出现的内容触动了他内心某种东西，或者让他想起某些事，唤醒了他正在挣扎的核心议题——这在治疗中当然值得探讨，因为它可能反映了他在深层层面真正面对的问题。

In the same way of like, you know, persons having nightmares about something and that's bringing up something in them or it's like reminding them of something or awakening something that they're actually wrestling with that's actually central to or relevant to some, you know, therapy session that you're having with them, then that's certainly something you could talk about because maybe it does speak to something broader that they're actually dealing with on a core level.

同样地，占星术也可以被用作一个类似的切入点。

And similarly, the astrology might be used as a similar jumping off point.

是的，正是如此。

Yes, exactly.

就像梦境一样，你知道，通常取决于我们进行的治疗类型，但通常并不是说，好吧。

And just like dreams, you know, typically, depending on the kind of therapy that we're doing, but typically, it's not like, okay.

你好。

Hello.

这周你做了什么梦，你知道的？

What dream did you have, you know, this week?

这不是每次会谈都会涉及的事情。

It's not an every session kind of thing.

嗯。

Mhmm.

它更具有自发性。

It's more spontaneous.

它更自然。

It's more organic.

客户在他们想谈的时候会带出来。

The client brings it in when they want to.

我认为我们对占星术也可以有类似的准则，你知道，有时候我会几周甚至几个月都不在治疗室里提到占星术，但有时候我们又会频繁地讨论它。

And I think that we can have the same sort of guideline with astrology in that, you know, there's sometimes I'll go, you know, weeks or months without astrology ever entering the therapy room, and then sometimes we'll talk about it a lot.

但它是的。

But it yeah.

我想我的意思是，占星术不必始终存在于治疗室中，它可以按照天时自然地来去。

That I guess my point is just that astrology doesn't have to be this ever present thing in the room, that it can come and go in divine timing, to speak.

这很有道理。

That makes a lot of sense.

所以，在相关或自然出现时使用它，但不必强行引入，因为你的主要焦点是心理治疗本身，以及治疗中真正被聚焦的内容，而不是占星术本身始终处于中心地位。

So using it when relevant or when it arises naturally, but it doesn't necessarily need to be forced because your primary focus is the psychotherapy session itself and the things that that's what's being centered rather than the astrology itself necessarily always being at the center of everything.

是的，完全正确。

Yes, exactly.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

在这种背景下，我知道你提到过，占星术可以被看作一种象征性语言、占卜形式或其他类似的东西。

And in that context, I know you talked about astrology being used as like a symbolic language or or a form of divination or or other things.

是的。

Yeah.

而且我觉得你刚才也提到过，我们可以把它看作一种语言，一种象征性语言，就像如果我有一个说西班牙语的人，而我也恰好会说西班牙语，也许用西班牙语交流会更舒服。

And I think that you mentioned this a little bit ago too is that we can think of it as, yeah, as a as a language, as a symbolic language just in the way that if, you know, I have someone that that speaks Spanish and then I happen to speak Spanish, and maybe it's more comfortable to speak Spanish.

在这种情况下，我认为占星术是一种关于心灵、关于人类经验的语言。

In this case, astrology, I I think of it as a language of of psyche, of the human experience.

有些人可能会说，这是一种原型语言。

Some folks may say it's an archetypal language.

我提到占卜，是因为其中有一种同步或自发的元素，尤其是当我们思考来访者到来的时刻时，我们可以通过咨询图看到治疗师通常会吸引什么样的客户，以及他们与客户之间的相位关系。

And I mentioned the divination too because there's this synchronistic or spontaneous element, like, especially when we're thinking about the time when someone comes in, and we can see this through the consultation chart, the kinds of clients that a therapist tends to attract and the synastry that they have with them.

作为占星师，我也发现，随着时间推移和不同阶段，进入你生命中的人们非常有趣。

And so and I I've found this being an astrologer too, it's very interesting, the kinds of people that come into your life in time and over phases.

因此，这其中也带有一些占卜的意味。

And and so there's something sort of divinatory about it as well.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

For sure.

这就像是荣格讲过的那个著名故事：一位来访者描述了一个梦，梦里有一只甲虫，而且在梦中非常突出。

So it's like the the parallel is like that famous story by Jung where he's talking about this client who's describing this dream where there's a beetle and it's featuring very prominently in their dream.

就在这时，一只甲虫突然开始敲打窗户，荣格立刻抓起甲虫，递给来访者，这成了一个重大的突破时刻。同样地，比如你们第一次见面时的星盘，可能就描述了你们之后将重点关注的内容；而作为治疗师，同时也是占星师，你对这种象征的觉察，或许能成为那个突破时刻的一部分，帮助触及对方问题的核心。

And then all of a sudden at the same moment, a beetle starts knocking on the window and he picks it up and like hands it to the client and it's like this big breakthrough moment that similarly, you know, the chart for let's say your first meeting might describe something that's actually going to be very relevant about what the two of you are going to focus on and sometimes your ability to see that symbol not just as a therapist but as an astrologer could help to be part of that breakthrough moment in order to be able to get to the core of somebody's issues.

但这种现象有时是自发、非人为地出现的，必须源于当下，而这种随机性或偶然性，正是各种占卜形式背后始终存在的要素。

But it's something that's arising sometimes spontaneously and inorganically that that has to come from the moment and there is that random or chance element to that which is something that's always underlying different forms of divination.

是的。

Yes.

没错。

Exactly.

我认为在这个语境下，应该把占星术更多地看作一种语言、一种艺术、一种占卜方式，而不是一种可以以非常固定方式应用的僵化科学技巧。

And I think it's important to, in this context, think about astrology as as more of, yeah, that language, an art, a divination versus a a more rigid scientific technique that can always be applied in a very particular kind of way.

不过，我知道有些人喜欢把占星术当作科学。

I think, though, you know, of course, some folks like to think of astrology as science.

但当我们把这个放在这个语境中时，确实还有一点更多……

I think when we're putting it into this context, there's there's a little more yeah.

它更像是一种艺术，而不是科学，至少以我体验的方式来看。

There's more it's more of an art than a science at least the way that I experience it.

当然。

Sure.

对。

Yeah.

我认为，其中有一些元素非常重要且真实，即使抛开占星术本身的有效性不谈，它也可以纯粹作为一种两个人之间共享的语言来使用。

And I think there's there's elements that they're really important and true and that it can also be used just purely as we're talking about on that level of a language that two people can share regardless of the validity of astrology in and of itself.

不过，我最近一直在思考，占星术其实带有一定的实证成分。

I have though been thinking about recently that it's like there is an empirical component to astrology.

即使作为一名心理治疗师，我认为这一点在你的实践中也会很有意义，比如，如果你至少被动地关注你经常接触的那些人的星盘，你就会注意到某些特定的组合或星盘中的位置。

And even as a psychotherapist, I think that's going to be relevant in your practice because let's say you are at least paying attention passively to the charts of different people that you're seeing regularly, you're going to see certain combinations or certain placements in the chart.

比如说，你提到的土星位于第四宫，举个例子，某个过往客户如何体验这个星盘位置，以及在父母议题上引发的一些问题。

Let's just say something like you mentioned Saturn in the fourth house, for example, and how a past client experienced that placement in their birth chart and some of the issues that came up in the area of parents, let's just say.

然后你又看到另一个有土星在第四宫的客户，观察他们对这个位置的体验，接着再看到第三个类似的人。

And then you see like another client that has Saturn the fourth and you see their experience of that placement and then you see like a third person.

作为占星师，到了某个阶段，你会发现其中存在一种实证成分——这些数据点有时会影响你对某个位置的理解，因为你确实开始看到重复现象，并发现不同人经历相同位置时，其意义范围之间存在某种关联。

There's a certain point as an astrologer where there's an empirical element where those data points are sometimes informing how you see that placement because you do start seeing repetitions and you do start seeing a correlation between a similar range of meanings about how different people will experience the same placement.

我认为，占星师有时有必要承认这一点，或者至少提出来，因为这意味着占星术确实具有实证成分，同时也意味着占星术并不仅仅是一种纯粹的语言，像诗歌那样完全脱离现实。

I think it's important as astrologers sometimes to recognize that to some extent or talk about that because it means there is an empirical component and it also means that astrology is not purely a language in the sense that it's just like poetry or something that doesn't have any grounding in reality.

事实上，它是在指向某种真实发生的事物，或自然界中某种真实的现象。

But in fact, it is speaking to something that's actually really happening or some sort of real phenomenon in nature of some sort.

是的。

Yes.

这正是我如此热衷于在治疗中使用占星术的原因之一，因为我们每周都会与某人见面，有时持续数年，从而真正理解他们星盘中各种元素的本质，因此我们能获得更深层次的理解。

This is a And part of why I'm so excited to use astrology in therapy is because we, you know, we meet with someone every week, sometimes over the course of years, and then we really get to understand, you know, the nature of whatever it is that's in their chart, and so we get such a deeper understanding.

我认为，确实存在某些主题，比如：哦，土星在这一宫位通常会呈现这样的特征，而它又可以有各种不同的表现方式。

And I think that, yes, like, there are certain themes where it's like, oh, this is this is what Saturn in this placement tends to look like, and this is all the different ways that it can look.

这属于另一个话题了，但我非常感兴趣的是，作为占星师，我们如何开展定性研究，而非定量研究——也就是说，更多关注个体生命背景中的整体主题，而不是仅仅依赖数字和统计数据。

This is, you know, a conversation for another time, but I am very interested in looking at how we can do qualitative research as astrologers versus quantitative, where it's more, you know, about studying broad themes and looking at things within the context of an individual's life versus looking at at just the numbers and just the statistics.

我认为占星术倾向于是一种更具人文关怀的实践——至少对我而言是如此——因此，如果我们能更多地运用定性数据，我认为这对我们大有裨益。

And I think that astrology tend because it's more of a humanitarian, or at least to me, more of a humanitarian kind of practice, is that I think that the more that we can use qualitative data, I think that serves us.

但这完全是另一个话题了。

But that's a whole other side tangent.

当然。

For sure.

当然。

For sure.

是的

Yeah.

但这似乎很重要，也相当相关，尤其是在讨论我们如何定义占星术、占星术作为一种语言的角色时，而这将是你所做工作的一部分。

But that seems important and sort of relevant just in terms of talking about like how we define astrology or the role of astrology as a language and that that's gonna be part of what you're doing.

我本来还想就这一点说点别的，我想我忘了。

I had some other point to make about that, I think I've lost it.

所以，是的，我认为在概念化占星术时，建立这样一个基础很有帮助——即我们实际上是如何思考占星术的，我们并不是认为行星会直接导致人们以某种方式行为，而是认为星盘的配置反映的是现实中的某种状况。

So yeah, I think that might be good in terms of conceptualization of astrology setting that foundation of how we're actually thinking about it and that we're thinking of it not necessarilyor most astrologers that are using it in a therapeutic context are not thinking of the planets causing people to behave in certain ways, but instead they're thinking of it in the sense of the placements reflecting something about what's going on in reality.

嗯

Mhmm.

是的

Yes.

是的

Yes.

是的

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

我们刚开始谈到这一点，但也许值得回头看看，是否还有其他关于在心理治疗中使用占星术时的伦理考量我们尚未涉及。

So we started to get into this, but maybe it's worth circling back to if there's anything else we didn't touch on, but just ethical considerations when you're using astrology within the context of psychotherapy.

是的。

Yes.

我们某种程度上已经触及过，但可能没有明确点出来。

We we sort of have touched on, but not maybe specifically named.

治疗师与客户之间存在权力不平衡，这是一个伦理考量。

There's there's an ethical consideration around the therapist, there being a power imbalance.

我认为，在治疗中本身就 inherently 存在权力不平衡，治疗师，或者在占星解读中，占星师是那个掌握大量信息、被视为专家的人。

And I I think that already in therapy, there's inherently a power imbalance and that the therapist or, you know, even in astrology readings, the astrologer is the one that knows lots of things and is sort of like the expert.

而客户则是寻求帮助的一方。

And then the client is the one that is, you know, seeking assistance.

我认为意识到这一点至关重要，而接受过专业训练的治疗师们，已经学习过如何应对这种情况。

And I think that it's so important to be aware of this, and folks who are therapists have, you know, received training on this and how to manage this.

而占星术有可能加剧或放大这种已经存在的权力失衡，因为治疗师被视为掌握占星智慧的人。

And there's a potential for astrology to exacerbate or amplify that power imbalance that's already present by the therapist being like the one with the wisdom about the astrology.

而且，我想我们已经讨论过如何通过尊重客户的体验来管理这一点。

And, you know, I think we've talked about how to manage that by deferring to the client and how they're experiencing things.

但我认为占星术可能非常具有诱惑性，我们会觉得自己已经知道发生了什么，然后直接告诉对方。

But I think that it can it can be you know, astrology can be very seductive in that we're like, oh, like, I know what's going on here, and I'm gonna tell the person.

或者，即使我不直接告诉他们，我也自认为看透了真相。

Or, you know, even if I'm not gonna tell them, I really see the truth.

我认为，作为治疗师、咨询师，甚至是占星师，我们始终需要审视自己是如何管理这种权力感的，以及当我们拥有如此多的占星知识时，内心是否会产生某种优越感。

And I think that as therapists and counselors and even astrologers, we always need to be kind of, like, looking at how we how we manage that and how we see ourselves and where we feel kind of, like, huffed up sort of by by having all of the astrology knowledge that we do.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

For sure.

这确实是个棘手的问题，因为每当有人找占星师做解读时，他们都默认这位占星师能通过占星术比客户自己更了解他们的生活，或能提供更深刻的洞察。

That's a really tricky thing just because the astrology anytime somebody's approaching astrologers for a reading, they're doing so with the presumption that this person through the astrology knows more about their life than the client does or might be able to provide insights.

不同的人对 astrologer 能够了解他们生活并告知他们未来信息的程度感受不同，尤其是因为不同 astrologer 的侧重点可能不同——有的更关注当下，关注与个人星盘相关的当前议题，有的则更关注过去，试图通过星盘揭示过去对现在的影响，而不是预测未来。

And there's going to be different levels of how much they feel like the person will know about their life and be able to tell them especially about their future because that's also maybe sometimes a different orientation is different astrologers and they're focused more on the present and what's presently relevant or what's relevant about the chart and the astrology about a person's past and what it can tell you about that versus what it may or may not be able to tell you about the future.

客户有时会赋予这种认知极大的权力，这一点至关重要，必须谨慎运用，而在这种情境下尤其如此。

And that clients sometimes put a lot of There's a lot of power in that, which is very important to be able to wield carefully and that would be even more so in this context.

是的。

Yeah.

而且我觉得，我在谈论这个的时候，也在承认我自己是个普通人，这些也是我自身在面对的挑战。

And I think, you know, I I'm also, like, talking about this, you know, acknowledging I'm a human and I'm I you know, these are things that I struggle with as well.

每当我发现自己对客户说：‘这个意味着什么’，或者‘这就是你的前任’，我就会提醒自己：‘好了，肖娜，冷静点。’

And I think that anytime that I find myself telling the client, like, oh, this is this means this or your you know, this is your ex I'm like, okay, Shawna.

要退一步，因为这并不是重点。

Like, you know, dial it back because that's not what that's about.

我认为，适当地分享一些信息是有帮助的。

You know, the I think it can be helpful to share.

我还要说，根据来访者的需求，有时我们会在正式开始心理治疗前先进行一次占星解读，以便先把那些内容梳理清楚，让双方都能说：‘好吧。’

And I'll even say too that depending on what someone wants when they come in, sometimes we will start with an astrology reading before we start formal psychotherapy just to kind of, like, sort of get all of that stuff out of the way so where it can be like, okay.

在这次咨询中，我会扮演占星师的角色，我会告诉你一些事情。

I'm gonna I'm gonna be the astrologer in this session, and I am gonna tell you things.

但之后，就看你的了，这么说吧。

But then it's gonna be, you know, then it's gonna be the balls in your court, so to speak.

我认为，是的，这是一个持续的核对过程，无论我们是否使用占星术，作为咨询师和治疗师，我们都要检查自己是否在不知不觉中成了对方体验的权威。

And I think that, yeah, it's like a constant checking in process whether or not we use astrology if if if as counselors and therapists, we're finding ourselves, like, being the authority in the room on the person's experience.

是的。

Yeah.

我喜欢这种做法。

I like that approach.

这是一种很酷的方式，可以先完成占星解读，然后再顺势开展心理治疗之类的后续工作。

That's a really cool approach to maybe get the reading out of the way first, and then that sets you up to be able to then do the psychotherapy after that or what have you.

因为回到我之前想说但忘了的内容，对我来说，占星术最有趣、最有趣的部分之一，就是面对客户时——你面对的是一个完全陌生的人，对他们的背景或生活一无所知。

Because going back to what I was going say that I lost earlier was just that's always been one of the most fun parts of astrology or most interesting parts to me is seeing clients and that you have this person who's a complete stranger to you and you have no idea of background of their life or anything else.

但你提前看了他们的星盘，就能对他们的生活应该如何，或者生活中其他方面形成一些初步的判断。

And you look at their chart and you read it ahead of time and you get an idea about how the person's life should be or different things about their life.

但在你开始和这个人交谈之前，你没有任何理由去思考为什么情况应该如此，或者为什么这个人生活的这些方面会是这样。

But until you start talking to the person, have no reason to think why that should be the case or why those parts of the person's life should be the way they are.

但当你开始与这个人交谈时，你会了解到他们的实际情况，并发现星盘往往非常准确地反映了这个人的生活经历、处境，有时甚至包括他们的性格或心理状态。

But then as you start talking to the person, you learn that they are and you learn how the chart does actually match oftentimes very well what this person's lived experience and circumstances and sometimes character or psyche are like.

这是一个非常有趣且引人入胜的过程，但你总是带着盲目性进入，始终带着某种程度的怀疑——因为我对这个人的生活背景一无所知。

And that's such an interesting and fascinating process, but it's one always that you go into blind and always with a certain almost amount of skepticism of like, I don't have any background information on this person's life.

但突然间，你会发现星盘常常相当准确地描述了这些情况，这正是这个过程令人着迷的地方。

But then all of a sudden you find out that oftentimes the astrology is describing it actually rather well, and that's kind of a cool part of the process.

是的。

Yeah.

我真的很享受这种流畅的节奏，因为它也建立了一种基础：好吧。

I I'm really enjoying that that flow because it it sort of also sets like a base baseline of like, okay.

发生了什么？

What's happening?

接下来几个月、未来几年会发生什么？

What is happening over the next couple of months, the next years?

这有点像是，是的。

And it's kind of like yeah.

为这个人未来在治疗中可能探索的方向奠定基础。

Sets a foundation for maybe what the person may want to explore going forward in therapy.

而且我认为，我可以把我的想法放在一边，只是把它提出来，然后看看哪些能引起他们的共鸣，哪些不能。

And and I think we get out of the way the, like, what I think, and I can just, you know, put it out there and we can see what resonates with them and what what also doesn't.

我们也可以放下自己的立场，如果他们对占星术的理解和我不一样，我们可以就此达成共识。

And we can also get out of the way if their approach to astrology is different than mine and how we come to terms with that so to speak.

这引出了另外两点。

That brings up like two other points.

一点是，占星术在具体语境中效果更好。

Like one is that astrology works better in context.

因此，虽然早期做一次解读很有好处，但你对一个人的生活了解得越多，就越能理解这些星盘配置如何真正契合他们的生活。

And so while it's good to do a reading early on, it's like the more context you learn about a person's life, the more you understand how the placements actually fit into their life.

作为占星师，这实际上能让你更准确地判断某些行运或其他因素是如何运作或即将如何运作的，因为出生星盘可能适用于不同时间、不同地点出生的人。

And as an astrologer, that actually gives you even a better ability then to say how certain transits or other things are working out or are going to work out probably within a certain range just because the birth chart, it could be a birth chart for people born in different places at different times.

而且，根据个人的情况、文化背景或其他因素，某些行星可能的表现方式对他们来说并不一定可行。

And depending on the person's circumstances or cultural things or other things like that, there's going to be a certain range of possible manifestations of the planets that might not be available to them.

但一旦你了解了背景，就能更准确地把握哪些可能性是存在的，以及哪些命盘解读是相关的。

But once you know the context, then it helps you to really sharpen your understanding of what's possible and what delineations might be relevant.

是的。

Yes.

而且我认为，人们在占星解读中往往不会分享很多事，无论出于什么原因。

And I think also there's so many things that people don't share in an astrology reading that for for whatever reason.

但在治疗过程中，有些事情会逐渐浮现出来，也许一个人在治疗进行了一年之后才准备好说出某些对他们生活至关重要的事情。

And through the therapy process, it's you know, things start to come out that maybe a person hasn't shared for, you know, like like a year into the process, and there's something, like, really critical in their life that finally they're ready to to bring out.

而这一点，我们确实能在星盘中看到，并理解它的意义。

And and that, yeah, that we can see that in the chart and and make sense of that.

是的。

Yeah.

这其实让我想到，占星有时可能是一件非常严肃的事情，因为它涉及人们的生活，可能会触及一个人生命中真正重大的议题。

That actually reminds me of like sometimes astrology can be like a really serious thing because it's talking about people's lives and it can talk about things that are really serious in a person's life.

有时你可能会无意中触及到这些敏感点。

And sometimes you can accidentally tread on that unknowingly.

我记得几年前参加过一次Opa会议，当时有五位占星师，我们每个人都为同一个人盲读星盘。

I remember this time years ago when I participated in a thing at an Opa conference where I think there was like five astrologers and we all read a chart blind for this person.

然后这个人本应在最后站起来，告诉我们谁读对了，谁做得更好，等等。

And then they were supposed to get up to understand at the end and tell us who got it right or what have you, who did a better job or whatever.

但我们中有两三位都聚焦在星盘中的一个特定部分，那里有一个多重行星聚集，但也有一些具有挑战性的配置。

And two or three of us ended up focusing on this one part of the chart where there was like a stellium or something, but it was kind of there were some challenging placements.

后来这个人站起来时，并没有说什么。

And the person later got up and didn't really say anything afterwards.

所以我们以为这次解读彻底失败了，是一次糟糕的经历，但后来才知道，我们其实确实捕捉到了某些东西，只是那对这个人来说是过去一段非常艰难或创伤性的经历。

And so we assumed that it just went horribly and was a bad event, but learned later that what happened was in fact we had picked up on something, but it was a very difficult or traumatic spot from the person's past.

当着一百多人的面，她并不想在那一刻谈论这些。

It wasn't something when they got up there in front of a room of a 100 people at the end that they really wanted to talk about.

这一直是我理解多个问题的绝佳例证，也让我意识到，面对这类事情时必须格外谨慎。

And that always ended up being a really good illustration to me of several different things, but also sometimes how you got to be careful with this stuff.

有时候，我不太想用‘轻视占星术’这种说法，但类似的意思确实可能有些棘手，因为你处理的往往是人们生活中非常重要且沉重的事情。

And sometimes I don't want say like trivialization of astrology is not the right word, but something in that ballpark can sometimes be tricky because you're dealing sometimes with really important and heavy stuff in people's lives.

因此，在进入这种情况时，必须保持一定的谨慎。

And so there has to be a certain amount of care taken going going into that.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yes.

谨慎。

Care.

过程中的谨慎。

Care in the process.

我经常想到，我们可能说出一些对我们来说完全无害的话，但我们无法控制客户、被解读的人，甚至心理治疗师会如何接受这些话——是正面还是负面。

And I I often think about we may say something that that to us seems, you know, perfectly fine, but we we don't have control over how the client or the person that we're reading for or even the the psychotherapist, how they're gonna take that positive or negative.

而且，我认为在这种工作中保持谨慎是一个非常好的初衷。

And, yeah, I think having care is a really good intention for this kind of work.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

For sure.

这可能很棘手。

And that can be tricky.

我认为所有占星师都会在一段时间内学到，有时你需要尽量谨慎地使用语言，因为你不知道不同的人会如何接受或解读你的话。

And I think all astrologers learn that over a period of time that sometimes you need to try your best to be careful with your language because you don't know how it's going to land with different people or how they might interpret it.

但有时，即使尽了最大努力，人们仍可能以与你本意完全不同的方式理解你的话，这在进行这类工作时也可能难以应对。

But there's sometimes even despite one's best efforts, there can be ways in which a person might understand what you say quite differently than what you intend and that can sometimes be tricky to deal with as well when doing some of this work.

definitely。

Definitely.

所以你提到了治疗过程，这引出了另一个在这个背景下非常重要的事情：通常在大多数情况下，占星师进行本命星盘解读时，只是一次性咨询，比如持续75分钟，然后就结束了。

So you mentioned you said therapeutic process and that brought up another thing that's really important in this context which is that usually in most contexts an astrologer, with natal astrology is just doing like a one off reading where you have like a seventy five minute consultation and that's it.

而在占星与心理治疗的结合情境中，你实际上处于对占星师来说更理想的状态：你能够更深入地了解这个人及其生活背景，这比在常规的一次性解读中所能达到的了解程度要深刻得多。

And there's really only so much you can go through during the course of that versus within the context of astrology and psychotherapy, you're doing actually the more ideal situation for an astrologer which is that you're actually getting to know the person and their life and the context of their life in a much more intimate way than you would or a better way than you would under a normal circumstance of a singular one off reading.

我认为这让你处于一个更独特的位置，无论你以何种方式使用占星术，都能更有效地、更深入地运用它，因为你更了解这个人生活的背景？

And I think that puts you in a much more unique position to whatever extent you're using astrology to be able to use it more effectively and at a deeper level because you understand the context of the person's life better?

是的。

Yes.

我发现我真的很喜欢这份工作中的这一部分，因为总是有更多内容有待探索。

And I found that I really love this part of of the work is that, like, you know, there's always there's always more.

我发现当一个人在接受治疗时，他们也在不断发现更多关于自己经历的细节。

And I find that when a person is in therapy, like, they're also discovering more and more about their experience.

比如，他们可能经历财务不安全或财务困难。

You know, maybe they have an experience of financial insecurity, financial challenges.

为什么会这样？

And why is this?

你知道吗？

You know?

我认为我们很容易简单地认为，这个问题就是由某一个单一因素造成的。

And I think that we can it's so easy to be like, oh, this problem is because of this one singular thing.

我越做这份工作，就越意识到有这么多不同的因素在影响它，比如一个人的性格、早期成长环境、所处环境、文化背景，以及他们的占星学。

And the more that I do this work, the more that I'm understanding that there's all of these different things that feed into it and, you know, a person's temperament, their early upbringing, their environment, their cultural context, and and their astrology.

这并不总是星盘中的某一个因素造成的，我觉得和来访者一起探讨这一点非常有趣，因为有些客户会说，哦，是的。

And it's not always, like, one thing in the chart, and I think that that's something that that I find really interesting to work with folks is it's like, you know, I have some clients who are like, oh, yeah.

我那个该死的X、Y和Z相位。

My darn, you know, x, y, and z aspect.

你知道的？

You know?

我的土星是一个常见的例子，但你知道吗？

My Saturn's a common one, but you know?

或者我的月亮与冥王星合相，或者其他什么相位。

Or, like, my my moon Pluto conjunction or whatever it is.

然后我会说，好吧。

And it's like, okay.

是的。

Like, yes.

还有这一点。

And there's that.

但同时，比如，那边这个情况又怎么说呢？

But also, like, what about this thing over here?

当你谈到这个情境时，我听到的其实是你星盘中这部分的体现，你觉得那里正在发生什么？

And, you know, when you talk about this scenario, I'm really hearing this part of your chart being expressed here, and and what do you think is going on there?

所以，是的，这就像一种持续的探索，不仅是探索他们的经历，也是探索星盘如何与他们的经历对话。

And so it's, yeah, it's like this constant exploration, not just of their experience, but of how the the chart is speaking to their experience.

我认为，这能帮助我们以更整体的方式来看待星盘；而我发现，我们自然倾向于——我自己也常这样——把星盘割裂成一个个小部分，而不是把整个星盘看作一个协同作用、共同塑造体验的整体。

And I think that it can really help us to look at the chart in a more whole way versus I find that it can be our our natural tendency, and I do this too, is to to sort of, like, compartmentalize the chart and to sort of think of the chart in, like little bits and pieces versus the whole thing working together to create an experience.

是的。

Yeah.

这很有道理。

That makes a lot of sense.

也许我们可以回到最后那个关于权力失衡的话题，关键可能在于设定预期，尤其是从一开始就明确指出占星师兼心理治疗师并非全知全能，因为这或许是客户需要理解的一点：他们当然需要对占星学抱有一定的信念，认为它是一种真实的现象，但同时也不应把占星师抬得过高，对占星学的作用保持合理的期待？

Maybe just to circle around and close out that last thing about the power imbalance, maybe part of the thing is just setting expectations and especially establishing that the astrologerpsychotherapist is not infallible right from the start because that's maybe one of the things that clients need to understand about astrologers to go into it with obviously a certain amount of belief that astrology is legitimate phenomenon and yet not put the astrologer on too high of a pedestal in terms of how astrology works, having reasonable expectations about how astrology works?

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

我认为作为客户，当某些内容没有共鸣或感觉不对时，一定要说出来，或者更准确地说，实际情况是这样的。

I think that as a client, it's so important to say when something doesn't resonate or something doesn't sit quite right or, well, actually, it's more like this.

而且你知道，我认为我们常常害怕出错或让别人觉得他们错了，但事实上，这有助于大家更深入地理解这里正在发生的事情。

And that that that is you know, I think we can be so afraid to be wrong or to make someone feel like they're wrong, but that that actually helps everyone to understand more of what's happening here.

所以，是的，我确实认为客户在遇到不共鸣的内容时应该敢于提出异议，并记住你的占星师、咨询师、治疗师、老师等等，他们都是普通人，不可能总是对的，这没关系，这也是过程的一部分。

And so, yeah, I think definitely for clients to be able to push back when something doesn't resonate and to remember that your astrologer, your counselor, your therapist, your teacher, whoever, they're all humans and they're not always gonna get it right and that's okay and that's a part of the process.

对。

Yeah.

我经常觉得，当怀疑者指责占星师只是在进行冷读时，这一点特别有趣：任何长期从事咨询占星工作的人很快就会意识到，当占星师告诉客户某些与他们生活不符的内容时，客户通常会很快告诉你，这并不符合他们的感受，或者类似的情况。

And one of the things I always find really funny about sometimes when skeptics accuse astrologers of just doing cold reading is anybody that sees that does consulting astrology for long enough realizes that no, when an astrologer tells a client something that doesn't match up with their life, the client usually will tell you pretty quickly if that's not resonating for them or something like that.

这是咨询对话的一部分，有时需要找到它实际显现的方式，而不是假设它只会以某种单一方式呈现。

That's part of the dialogue and doing consultation and sometimes finding the way that it does manifest rather than just assuming it's gonna show up in one singular way.

是的

Yeah.

我的意思是，占星有太多不同的表现方式了，我们需要这种反馈来辨别它到底是什么。

I mean, astrology is so There's so many different ways that something could manifest and, yeah, we we need to be able to have that that feedback to to discern what it is.

当然。

For sure.

当然。

For sure.

好的。

Okay.

那么其他伦理考量。

So other ethical considerations.

你提到，有时咨询会变成占星师单方面告诉客户他们是什么样的人，而不是真正倾听客户，这可能是一个缺点。

You mentioned sessions could turn into astrology readings purely where the psychotherapist is telling the client what they're like versus actually listening to the client as a potential downside.

是的

Yeah.

所以我认为，是的，我们之前一直绕着这个话题打转。

So I think, yeah, we've we've sort of danced around that topic.

我认为，对于那些非常热衷于将占星术引入咨询的顾问或治疗师来说，这种情况可能会发生，而客户则会说，哦，是的。

And I think that that's something that can happen for maybe a person that for a counselor or a therapist who's really excited to bring astrology in, and then, you know, the client is like, oh, yeah.

告诉我更多吧。

Like, tell me more.

然后他们俩都会不知不觉地陷入其中。

And then they both sort of get sucked into that.

所以我认为，重要的是要明确指出，这是我们始终需要警惕的事情，我们可以通过以客户为中心、默认询问他们的想法来做到这一点，比如：哦，是的。

And so I I think it's important to name that that's something that we always wanna, like, guard against and that we can do that by by defaulting to the client and, like like, being like, oh, yeah.

那你对这个怎么看？

Like, well, what do you think about this?

你如何理解这一点？

What how do you correlate this?

是的。

And yeah.

是的

Yeah.

对

Yeah.

有时候，我曾经用过一种模型，就是重新做占星解读时，会给出某个星体原型可能表现出来的一种积极方式。

Sometimes like one model that I had at one point, we're just redoing astrology readings was to give one positive interpretation of how that archetype could manifest.

比如说，这是一个相位或星盘位置。

Let's say it's like an aspect or a placement.

然后给出一种可能的积极表现，一种具有挑战性的可能表现，再加一种中性的表现。

So one positive possible manifestation, one challenging possible manifestation, and then maybe one neutral manifestation.

然后问：你觉得这些对你来说怎么样？

And then ask, you know, how has that worked out for you?

因为这样既能展示出可能性的范围，又不会让范围过于宽泛，同时还能打开对话，让你看到实际情况，判断这些解读是否契合，或者是否以你意想不到的方式契合。

Because then it gives you It sort of demonstrates the range while still putting some boundaries on it of the range in which you think it should be manifesting, but then allowing for an opening up that dialogues that you can then see what the actual context is and whether that's resonating or whether it's not or whether it's resonating in a slightly different way than you anticipate.

是的

Yeah.

我喜欢这一点，因为它让客户有机会选择他们感到舒适的那一种解释。

And what I like about that is that gives the client the opportunity to claim which of those they feel comfortable with.

所以你基本上会说，是的。

So you're kind of like, yeah.

这是关于其他人体验这种能量的完整谱系，而不是直接说‘你就是这样’。

This is the the full spectrum of the way that other people experience this instead of saying, like, you are this way.

就像是，是的。

It's like, yeah.

这些是你如果愿意的话可以认同的一系列选项。

These are the this is the platter of things that you can identify with if you wish.

是的。

Yeah.

这要少很多对抗性。

It's much less confrontational.

当然。

Sure.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

For sure.

好的。

Okay.

然后你提到的最后一个问题是，在最坏的情况下，是否会根据客户的星座来病理化他们，而不是将星盘用作验证和理解客户的工具？

And then the final one that you mentioned was the potential in the worst case scenario to pathologize the client based on their astrology instead of using the chart as a method to validate and understand the client?

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这一点我也经常无意识地在做，作为占星师，我们非常清楚自己喜欢哪些占星特征，而不喜欢哪些。

I think this is And again, I'm saying this is something that I find myself doing too is as astrologers, we're very aware of the certain astrological signatures that we like versus the ones that we don't like.

而且，你知道，我们可能在生活中曾遇到过拥有某种特定星象的人。

And, you know, maybe we've even had experiences with people in our lives that had a certain signature.

现在每次遇到拥有这种星象的人，我们都会想，哦，没错。

And now anytime we meet anyone with that signature, we're like, oh, yeah.

他们就是这样的人。

They're, you know, they're this kind of way.

而且我认为，确实，另一件需要留意的事情是，我们可能会以某种负面的方式将某种特质投射到客户身上，把他们框定在某种刻板印象里，甚至病理化他们。

And and I think, yeah, that's another thing to to be aware of is when we may be projecting a certain quality onto a client in a negative kind of way and sort of like putting them into a box or pathologizing them.

而且我认为，确实如此。

And I think that yeah.

我认为作为占星师，我们可能会这样做，而在心理治疗的环境中，这种做法尤其危险，因为客户本来就将治疗师视为权威人物。

I think that we can do this as astrologers, and I think that it can be dangerous when it's in the psychotherapeutic space because because the client is looking to the therapist as an authority figure already.

这本来就是这种关系动态的一部分。

Like, that's already kind of like that's already a part of the dynamic is the way that it's set up.

所以，是的，我认为重要的是要承认这是一种潜在风险，并且需要加以防范。

And so so, yeah, I think I think just important to acknowledge that that's a potential and something to guard against.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这个建议不仅适用于占星和心理治疗的语境，也适用于占星术的普遍使用方式——你如何用它来与生活中的人互动，你的互动方式决定了你对那个人的看法以及你们之间的关系。

I think that's good advice both within the context of astrology and psychotherapy, but also in the context of just using astrology in general and how you use it to interact with people in your lives is your interactions with the person dictate your views on that person and what your relationship is with them.

不要让占星术成为你看待一个人或决定你与他们关系和互动方式的首要或唯一依据。

Don't let the astrology be the primary or first thing that you're using to dictate your views on the person or what your relationship and interactions with them should be like.

如果你遵循这个建议，通常在处理某些事情时，你就能做出更恰当的判断。

And usually if you follow that sort of tip, you can usually like fall on the right side of it when it comes to certain things.

是的，完全正确。

Yes, exactly.

好的。

Okay.

好吧。

All right.

所以我想这其实也部分回到了事物的临时性本质——即使你曾经观察到某些现象，或者有过某些关于特定星盘配置如何发挥作用的经验，但每次遇见新的人时，即使你aware了这些过往经验，你也必须以一种近乎空白的心态去对待你与他们的关系，否则你就会陷入用占星术过度归类人群的陷阱，甚至走向武断、偏见之类的问题。

So I guess that just goes back to partially also the provisional nature of things that even if you've observed certain things or if you've had certain experiences of how certain placements have worked out in the past, every time you meet a new person, even if you're aware of those previous things, you have to approach your relationship with them with a certain amount of like a blank slate because otherwise it's like you don't want to fall into the trap of using astrology in a way that you're overly categorizing certain people to the point of presumptuousness or even you know, prejudice or what have you?

是的。

Yeah.

而且我认为，以一张白纸的心态来面对这件事，其实有点困难。

And I would say I think coming to it with a blank as a blank slate is a little bit challenging.

我会把它看作是不带假设、保持好奇心的状态。

I I would think of it as, yeah, like having a lack of assumptions and having a state of curiosity.

比如，哦，这是什么？

Like, oh, like, what is what is this?

这个人是谁？

What is this person?

他们是如何展现这种特定的特质的？

And how how are they manifest expressing this particular kind of signature?

当然，说起来容易做起来难，尤其是当我们对某些特定特质有强烈体验时，无论是经历过某个行运、与他人有过星盘相位，还是类似的情况。

And, of course, this is always easier said than done, right, especially if we have, like, intense experiences with certain kind of signatures, whether that's a transit that we've experienced or sinistery with another person or something like that.

但要保持开放的心态，去接纳当下可能发生的一切可能性。

But, yeah, maintaining this sort of like openness to the possibilities of of what's happening right now.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

这非常重要。

That's so important.

我想这是每个占星师都会反复纠结、挣扎，但最终必须找到某种平衡的问题。

I guess it's something every every astrologer will go back and forth on and struggles with but eventually needs to find some sort of balance too.

因为多年来我注意到的一件事是，即使你有过这样的经历——你生命中不同情境下遇到过几位拥有某些特定星盘配置的人，那段经历可能充满挑战、困难，甚至在某些方面更糟。

Because one of the things I've noticed over the years is even if you have that experience where it's like you've had a string of a few different people in your life in different contexts that have had certain placements and then it's been challenging or difficult or even worse in some ways.

有时，占星学会给你一个意外的转折，一个拥有完全相同配置的新的人会进入你的生活，你一开始可能会有些谨慎或紧张，但有时最终却会以该原型最理想的形态顺利发展。

Sometimes what'll happen is at some point astrology will throw you a curveball and a new person will come into your life with those same exact placements and you're going to be a little cautious or a little nervous at first, but sometimes it ends up working out in the best possible manifestation of that archetype basically.

这就是为什么作为占星师，你在与人互动时必须为这种情况留出一些空间。

And that's the reason why you sort of have to leave some room for that in whatever your interactions are as an astrologer.

是的。

Yes.

而且我觉得对我们自己说这一点非常重要：星盘并不能告诉我一切。

And I think it's so important to say to ourselves, okay, the chart doesn't tell me everything.

星盘并不能告诉我们一个人的情感成熟度。

The chart doesn't tell us I don't think it tells us a person's emotional maturity.

你知道吗？

You know?

我觉得有些事情我们能看到，但也有一些事情是我们看不到的。

I I think there's things that we can see, but there's also things that we can't see.

而且确实如此。

And yeah.

完全正确。

Totally.

正是如此。

Exactly.

是的，当然。

Yeah, for sure.

而且还有不同的环境因素，比如一个人的成长背景、家庭状况，以及他们一路上经历的各种事情，这些有时会加剧某些星盘配置的影响，而在其他情况下却能让人变得谦逊，从而以非常显著的方式抵消这些影响，因此你必须以最大的平衡心态去对待每一位新遇到的人。

And there's also different environmental factors about how the person grew up or what their family was like or different experiences that they had along the way that sometimes could exacerbate certain placements or in other instances can sometimes really humble people and that offsets things in really major ways which is why you have to approach it with as much balance as you can with each new person.

嗯。

Mhmm.

当然。

Definitely.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

All right.

所以其他需要考虑的因素，比如哪些类型的治疗天生与占星术更匹配，哪些则不匹配。

So other considerations, so types of therapy that are inherently well matched with astrology versus those that are not.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得有必要提一下，因为我所实践的治疗类型是深度心理治疗，这是一个涵盖任何以重组思维、重组人格为目标的治疗方式的总称。

This felt important to mention because so the, you know, the type of therapy that I practice is depth psychotherapy, and that's an umbrella term for any type of therapy that is oriented towards restructuring the mind, restructuring the personality.

它非常注重与无意识互动，而深度心理治疗通常感觉微妙，并且需要长时间缓慢地发挥作用。

It's really focused on working with the unconscious, and depth psychotherapy tends to feel subtle and to work slowly over time.

深度心理治疗啊，你先说。

Depth psychothera oh, go ahead.

这就像荣格学派的分支、方法，或者受其影响的？还是说这种关联不正确？

Is like the Jungian sort of branch or approach or influenced by it or or is that not a correct, like, association to make?

在深度心理治疗这个大类下，包括荣格心理治疗、原型治疗和沙盘治疗。

So the umbrella under the umbrella of depth psychotherapy is Jungian psychotherapy, archetypal therapy, sand play.

让我想想。

Let's see.

我这里还漏了什么？

What else am I missing here?

是的。

Yeah.

这些是主要的几种。

Those are the main ones.

但没错，荣格学派 definitely 属于其中。

But, yeah, Jungian is definitely under there.

我用‘深度’这个词，是因为大多数人一想到荣格治疗，但实际上还有很多其他疗法与荣格疗法类似，它们使用相似的概念，但有不同的技术或心理模型。

And I use the term depth because most people think of Jungian therapy, but there's a lot of different therapies that are similar to Jungian that use similar concepts but have different techniques or different models of mind.