贝卡·塔纳斯谈外行星周期与荣格的《红书》

我认为，这对占星师来说非常有帮助，因为这意味着我们实践中的那些形象、原型存在具有某种本体论上的真实性。

And I think that that's really helpful for astrologers to understand that there is something ontologically real about the figures, the archetypal beings that inform our practice.

例如，我对占星学的理解，就是去认识这些占星原型：火星是谁，金星是谁，木星是谁。

For example, my own understanding of astrology of getting to know the astrological archetypes: who Mars is, who Venus is, who Jupiter is.

我也特意使用'谁'这个词，因为这本质上是一种与原型存在建立关系的过程。

And I use that term 'who' intentionally as well because it is a relationship of getting to know an archetypal presence.

我认为，荣格在《红书》中所指向的正是这一点，心理学有着如此深邃的内涵。

And I think that's really what Jung is pointing toward with the Red Book, and that there is so much depth to psychology.

我们称其为深度心理学，自有其原因——这种深度本身就内在于占星学的视角之中。

There's a reason that his branch of psychology we call it depth psychology that level of depth is already inherent in the astrological perspective.

我们认识到，如果行星的运行与我们的生活之间存在关联，那么这里发生的远不止现代理性主义、祛魅世界观所允许看到的那些。

We recognize that if there are correlations between the movement of the planets in our own lives, that there's more going on here than a modern, rationalistic, disenchanted perspective will allow to be seen.

荣格最初持怀疑态度，但他的经历彻底打破了这种局限，突破进入了一种截然不同的世界观——一种认真对待心理、精神、神圣与原型实在的世界观。

And Jung's experiences coming from an initially skeptical place, they blast through that, they break through into a different kind of worldview, a worldview that takes seriously the psychological, the spiritual, the numinous, the imaginal.

它将想象力本身视为一种真实的存在，而我们的语言甚至尚未学会如何应对这种观念。

It sees the imagination itself as something that is real, and that's something that our language doesn't even really know how to handle.

我们把现实与幻想、物质与精神对立起来，一切都陷入这些二元对立中。

We contrast reality from fantasy or the material from the spiritual they're all split in these binaries.

而荣格所指向的，正是将这些重新统一起来。

And what Jung is pointing toward unites those again.

我认为占星学也做了同样的事情。

And I think astrology does the same thing.

在《红书研究》中，你提到土星与冥王星的合相非常相关，那发生在20世纪10年代中期，与之相吻合并有所关联。

In The Study in the Red Book, you mentioned the Saturn Pluto conjunction as being very relevant that was happening in the mid-nineteen teens as coinciding with that and being connected.

除了他在撰写《红书》期间或最终出版时的其他有趣占星关联外，你是否还发现过其他值得注意的、在研究中发现的占星现象？

Were there other interesting astrological correlations in terms of the history of the Red Book either in his writing of it or in the eventual publication of it that are notable to you or that you found in studying it?

贯穿《红书》项目最大的占星主题，是1899年至1918年间全球天象中的天王星与海王星的对分相。

The largest astrological theme that kind of encompasses the Red Book project was the Uranus Neptune opposition that was in the world transits from 1899 to 1918.

因此，荣格的《红书》体验正是在这一对分相的尾声阶段开始的。

And so, it was in the waning years of that opposition that Jung's Red Book experiences started.

仅从这两个原型来看，天王星和海王星，海王星代表想象、幻想、原型、符号、图像以及可想象的世界。

And just looking at those two archetypes, Uranus and Neptune, Neptune is the principle of the imagination, of fantasy, of archetypes, symbols, images, the imaginable world.

而天王星代表着对此的觉醒——是突然闯入幻想图景的突破，或是猛然意识到那个更宏大、能统合一切的精神整体。

And Uranus is the awakening to that, the sudden breakthrough into a fantasy landscape or a sudden or unexpected realization of a larger unifying spiritual whole.

所以那次行运星象就为荣格创作《红书》的历程提供了部分时代背景。

And so that was one of the world transits that was providing some of the context for Jung's Red Book.

有意思的是，这些幻象最初涌现时，天王星与海王星的这一对冲格局恰好形成了合相。

And what's interesting is that opposition of Uranus and Neptune was crossing at the time that these visions were first coming in.

这个合相对冲了他本命盘里太阳与海王星的四分相，落点刚好在他星盘的主要轴线之上。

It was crossing his natal Sun Neptune square, which is right on the angles of his chart.

所以这一相位落在了他的上升点-下降点轴线上，真正激活了他的太阳，以及本命盘里与海王星形成的四分相。

So it was aligning on his AscendantDescendant axis and really activating his Sun and then the natal square to Neptune.

所以这件事对他而言完全是在非常私人的层面上发生的，影响了他的太阳落座：他本身就是一个富有英雄气概的人，踏上了这段进入想象王国的旅程，还邂逅了这些原型形象。

So it was happening for him at this very kind of personal level affecting his Sun and that he is a heroic individual, goes on this journey into the imaginal realm and encounters these archetypal figures.

这是其中一个主题。

So that was one theme.

另外，荣格在他职业生涯的末期还写过四篇核心文本，如今不少学者都将这些文本视作是对《红书》的解读。

And Jung actually wrote four key texts near the end of his career that several scholars now see as a commentary on the Red Book.

在我们拥有《红书》之前，就已经有了这些文本。

Now, we have those texts well before we had the Red Book.

这四部文本是《约伯的答复》、《移情心理学》、《神秘结合》和《阿eon》。

These four texts are Answer to Job, Psychology of the Transference, Mysterium Conunctionus, and Aeon.

这四部文本，学者兰斯·欧文斯称其为他的总结四部曲，实际上是《红书》的心理学评注。

And these four texts, which the scholar Lance Owens calls his summary quartet, they're really a psychological commentary on the Red Book.

它们都是在20世纪50年代天王星与海王星再次对齐时写成的。

And they were all written during the next alignment of Uranus with Neptune in the 1950s.

第一部是《移情心理学》，于20世纪40年代末出版，正值天王星与海王星成刑相之际；其余三部则均在1950年代天王星与海王星成刑相期间完成并出版。

The first one is Psychology of the Transference, which was published in the late '40s just as that Uranus Neptune square was coming into orbit, then the rest were all written and published during that nineteen fifty square of Uranus and Neptune.

下一次这两颗行星形成紧张相位是在1990年代，那时是合相。

And then the next time that those two planets come into hard aspect was through the 1990s that was the conjunction.

在1990年代末，在编辑索努·什亚姆达萨尼的劝说下，荣格的继承人决定：是的，他们确实会出版这部文本。

And it was near the end of the '90s that the decision was made by the heirs of Jung at the persuasion of Sonu Shyamdasani, the editor, that yes, they would indeed publish this text.

所以虽然它当时并未出版

So while it wasn't published

顺便问一下，为什么会拖这么长时间？

What took so long, by the way, just as an aside?

荣格的家人不希望它出版。

Jung's family didn't want it published.

在某些方面，这是一份非常私人的文本，但它也极具集体性和超个人性。

It is a very personal text in some ways, and it's also very collective and transpersonal.

它连接了从个人到超个人或集体之间的所有内容。

It bridges everything in between personal to transpersonal or collective.

我认为，人们犹豫是否要暴露荣格的这一面，尤其是因为一开始他真的在质疑自己的精神是否正常。

And there was a hesitation I think to expose that side of Jung, especially because at the beginning he really was questioning his sanity.

当你阅读它时，我在太平洋加利福尼亚研究生院教授一门关于荣格《红书》与主动想象的课程，看到学生们经历与我当年阅读时相似的过程，实际上让我感到些许宽慰。

And when you read it, I teach a course on Jung's Red Book, An Active Imagination at Pacifica Graduate Institute, and it's actually in some ways relieving for me to see students go through a similar process as I did when I was reading it.

当你阅读它时，你会开始觉得自己有点精神失常。

You start to feel a little like you're going insane when you're reading it.

你会被直接抛入一个充满疯狂、神圣形象的世界，不禁疑惑这里究竟发生了什么，现实的层次究竟是什么。

You're just dropped into this world of madness and figures in the Divine and what is going on here and what are the layers of reality.

你只能一点一点地消化它。

You really can only digest it in small bites.

所以我认为，这正是他的家人和继承人不愿出版的部分原因。

So I think that was some of the hesitation that his family, his heirs just didn't want it to be published.

最终，在90年代末，他们被说服了，认为这部作品是理解荣格的关键文本，必须公之于众，因为它在许多方面是理解他后期所有著作的基石。

And finally, in the late '90s, they were persuaded that this is a really key text to understanding Jung and that it's important that this be there because it's in so many ways the keystone to understanding so much else of his work, everything that came later.

当然。

Sure.

我猜他们可能担心荣格的批评者会声称他精神失常，或者认为这是精神分裂症之类的心理疾病。

I guess maybe they were worried detractors of Jung might allege that he was mentally ill or something like that and that this was schizophrenia or some mental illness.

没错。

Exactly.

而某种程度上，公开这部作品，消解了大量这类疑问。

And that gap, in some ways, releasing it, it undid a lot of those questions.

因为传记作者在没有《红书》原始文本作为背景的情况下，描述这一时期时，会说：也许他经历了一次精神崩溃。

Because biographers, when they would write about this period without having the context of the actual Red Book, they would say, Maybe he went through a psychotic break.

正如他所描述的，这是他与无意识的对抗。

As he described it, it was his confrontation with the unconscious.

通过发布《红书》，我们实际上拥有了文本，能够对当时发生在他身上的事情做出判断，而不是让传记作者在缺乏材料的情况下进行推测。

And by releasing the Red Book, we actually have the text that allows us to make the call, the judgment of what seemed to be going on for him rather than biographers surmising based on a lack of material.

因此，我认为出版这本书对于填补这一空白至关重要。

So I think it's been really important that it was released to fill in the picture.

正如编辑索尼·尚达萨尼所说，正是荣格对自己精神健全性的质疑，证明了他精神健全——他意识到自己正在经历什么，并且仍能保持理性与反思，进而分析这些经历，不仅对自己，也对他人普遍适用的心理现象获得深刻的理解。

As the editor, Sonae Shandasani, has said, it's Jung's questioning of his own sanity that is a mark of his sanity, that he is aware of what is happening to him at a level where he's still able to be rational and reflexive upon it and then actually analyze it and come to deep psychological understanding not only of himself but things that are applicable to other people.

我的意思是，令人非凡的是，他的心理学理论深深植根于这些经历，却能广泛适用于他人理解自身的心理过程。

I mean, that's the extraordinary thing is that his psychological theories that do have so much of a grounding in these experiences are widely applicable to others understanding their own psychological processes.

好吧，这说得通。

Okay, that makes sense.

他与弗洛伊德的决裂就发生在几年前，对吧？

And his break with Freud was just like a few years before that, right?

我记的对吗？那是在20世纪10年代初？

Am I remembering the timeline correctly where that was in the early nineteen teens?

是的，完全正确。

Yeah, that's exactly right.

他与弗洛伊德的决裂大约发生在1912年。

The break with Freud was I think right around 1912.

甚至可能是1913年，因为引发决裂的是荣格的那本书，现在被出版为《转化的象征》。

It might even actually have been in 1913 because what instigated the break was Jung's book, which is now published as Symbols of Transformation.

我现在正想起它的德文原名，《论 libido 的象征与意象》，于1911年和1912年分两卷出版。

I'm just remembering the German title right now, which is Von Lumen und Simbold der Libido, which was published in two volumes in 1911 and 1912.

这标志着他在专业上与弗洛伊德理论的分道扬镳，他认为力比多不仅仅是性欲，而是一种创造性的心理生命力。

And that was his own break professionally in terms of differentiating his theories from Freud's, saying that the libido is more than just sexuality the libido is creative psychic life force.

因此，这导致了弗洛伊德与荣格的分裂，而紧随其后，荣格便进入了他的深度下降期。我认为，与弗洛伊德的决裂确实是促成这一过程的一部分——比如职业上的孤立等等，但更重要的是，这不仅仅是与弗洛伊德的决裂，更是集体层面正在发生的变化。

And so that led to the schism between Freud and Jung, and very quickly on the heels of that, he then went into his descent, which I do think the break with Freud was part of what led to it I mean, just professional ostracization and so on but also that it's more than just the break with Freud, it's what's happening in the collective.

我认为，占星学的视角在这里能提供极大的帮助。

I think that's where the astrological perspective can be so helpful.

他以某种方式触及了原型的时代精神，感受到土星与冥王星的能量涌入，这种能量最终引爆了第一次世界大战，而当时几乎没有人预见到这一点。

He's tapped in, in a way, to the archetypal zeitgeist and is feeling that Saturn Pluto energy coming in that unleashes in the First World War, which so many people did not see coming.

那场战争让全世界都措手不及：当时有诸多不同的同盟关系，最终引爆了这场大规模冲突，而所有人都没能预想到它会以如此多样的形式造成这般程度的破坏。

That war took the world by surprise that there were so many different alliances that then triggered a vast conflict that really nobody predicted the level of destruction in so many different forms.

但荣格却在心理层面，或者说潜意识层面，察觉到了这股趋势。

And yet, Jung is kind of tapped into that at a psychological level or at an unconscious level.

我认为正是这份感知在他内心不断涌动，最终化作了那些预言性的幻象。

And I think that's what's really pushing through him that comes through in these prophetic visions.

可就像绝大多数预言幻象一样，在事情发生、回过头去看之前，你根本没法从那些幻象里弄清到底会发生什么。

But like so many prophetic visions, you can't really say what's going to happen from them until it's in retrospect.

虽然我知道，他当时没能将自己关于大洪水的幻象解读为‘这显然会引发一场波及全球的大规模地缘政治冲突’，他那时候只以为这些异象只是自己内心的波澜。

While I know that he wasn't able to look at his vision of the Flood and say, Oh, this clearly is going to lead to a vast geopolitical global conflict, he thought that this was just something going on in him.

对。

Right.

正在观看视频版的朋友们，现在展示的是荣格的星盘副本。

Here's for those watching the video version just a copy of Jung's chart.

我写的这个出生时间是对的吗？

Do I have the birth time right?

他是水瓶座上升吗？

Is he like two Aquarius rising?

是的，我觉得没错。

Yeah, that seems right to me.

可能是上升三度，因为太阳正好在下降点上。

The might be three because the Sun was right on the Descendant.

对。

Yeah.

但那非常非常接近。

But that's very, very close.

好的。

Okay.

你之前提到他的太阳与海王星呈刑相，这正是被激活的部分。

And you were talking about his Sun Neptune square and that being part of what was getting activated.

他的太阳在狮子座三度，海王星在金牛座三度。

He has the Sun at three Leo and Neptune at three Taurus.

是的。

Yeah.

当时，天王星和海王星正好经过海王星，与他的太阳合相，天王星也与他的上升点合相，完全激活了这一配置。

And so, the Uranus Neptune at the time was just crossing right over Neptune conjoining his Sun and Uranus conjoining his Ascendant and just completely activating that.

好的。

Okay.

哇。

Wow.

是的，这是一组非常强烈的相位。

Yeah, that's a pretty intense set of transits.

是的，单独任何一个相位都已经很强烈了，但它们同时精确地落在上升点和下降点轴线上，与太阳合相，并与海王星成刑相，这实在太强了。

Yeah, either one of those in and of itself would have been intense, but having it exactly on the Ascendant, Descendant axis and conjunct the Sun and square Neptune at the same time is a lot.

是的，这对他的影响非常巨大，彻底改变了他的人生。

Yeah, it was huge and completely life changing for him.

然后我们再回到土星和冥王星的合相，因为这可能为我们进入下一个话题提供一个很好的过渡点。

And then going back to the conjunction of Saturn and Pluto because that might provide a good transition point into our next topic.

但那个范围是多少？

But what was the range on that?

我想这正是占星界有时存在争议的地方，关于 orbs 以及星象配置或行星对齐何时开始生效，但你给这个合相设定的时间范围是多久？

I guess this is where there's sometimes debates about One of the debates in the astrological community is about orbs and when configuration or planetary alignment comes into effect exactly, but what timeframe are you giving it for that conjunction?

我给这个合相设定的时间范围是15度的容许度，大约从1913年到1915年，我想是这样。

The timeframe I'm giving for the conjunction using a 15 degree orb is about 1913 through, let me think, '15, I think.

好的，我查一下。

Okay, let me pull that up.

所以我们说的是土星和冥王星的合相，最终它在看似巨蟹座早期精确对齐。

So we're talking about the Saturn Pluto conjunction which eventually went exact in what it looks like early Cancer.

是的。

Yeah.

荣格的第一次洪水幻象发生在1913年10月17日，你可以看到那时土星和冥王星正在相互接近，而当战争在1914年7月爆发时，它们已经相距两度以内。

So Jung's first Flood vision took place on 10/17/1913, And you can see that Saturn and Pluto are approaching each other at that point, and then they were within two degrees when the war was declared right at the July 1914.

因此，土星和冥王星的这一对齐主导了第一次世界大战的初期阶段。

And so that Saturn Pluto alignment really dominated the first part of the First World War.

有趣的是，战争初期你还能看到另一个重要的天象——木星与天王星的合相。

And interestingly, the other big alignment that you can see happening there at the start of the war is that Jupiter Uranus conjunction.

因此，战争带来的巨大破坏与木星和天王星所代表的那种天真的兴奋感并存——人们对于战争的意义充满热情，无数年轻人踊跃参军，甘愿为所谓的爱国主义和国家献出生命。

And so, you have both the intense level of destruction of the war starting and also this Jupiter Uranus kind of naive sense of excitement about it, about what it meant, and all of these young men signing up to fight in the war and just to give their lives really on behalf of what, an idea of patriotism, the nation?

甚至当时德国和英国的学者们还在大学里一起研究，分别时却说：‘战场上见’，这种想法如今看来多么奇怪而天真。

And there were even German and English scholars who were studying together in universities, and they would part saying, Well, I'll see you on the battlefield, and how strange and naive that seems.

当然，随着战争的展开，它成为了第一场……

And then of course, as the war unfolded, it was the first R.

第一场……

R.

参加过这场战争的托尔金称其为‘第一场机器的战争’，因为正是在那时，机枪、坦克等技术已经超越了传统的战术。

Tolkien who fought in that war called it the first war of the machines because this is when technology in terms of the machine gun, in terms of tanks, and so on had surpassed battle tactics.

过去那种列队穿越无人区的作战方式再也行不通了。

And the old battle tactics of having a line of men run across no man's land didn't work anymore.

他们不再是冲向刺刀或箭雨，而是冲向机枪和坦克，战术完全跟不上技术的发展。

They're not running into bayonet fire or arrows they're running into machine gun fire and into tanks, and the tactics didn't align with the technology.

从很多方面来看，这场战争最终以士气低落告终。

And really, the war in so many ways ended in demoralization.

你可以看到这种能量转变实际上是从土星冥王星——那种初期的毁灭性强度，转向了土星海王星。

And you can see that transit shift actually from the Saturn Pluto, that kind of cataclysmic intensity at the beginning, to Saturn Neptune.

战争后期出现了土星海王星的相位，尤其在1916年左右的索姆河战役达到顶峰，这场战役是读来最令人心碎的战役之一，比如英国将军们完全缺乏想象力，年轻士兵们的生命在战壕的泥泞中被无情剥夺。

There's a Saturn Neptune alignment in the later years of the war that was really peaking around 1916 during, say, the Battle of the Somme, which is one of the most heart wrenching battles to read about, just a complete failure of imagination on the part of the British generals, for example, and just young men's lives being cut short in the mud of the trenches and so on.

因此，这种土星海王星的合相体现出了士气低落、想象力匮乏、以及战壕中无处不在的泥泞、感染和跳蚤等沉重氛围。

And so, it carries that kind of Saturn Neptune feeling of the conjunction there of the demoralization and the lack of imagination and the just saturation and mud and infection and fleas and trenches.

因此，在很大程度上，能量从土星冥王星转向了土星海王星。

And so, a big shift in energy in a lot of ways from Saturn Pluto to Saturn Neptune.

你实际上在第二次世界大战中也能看到同样的轨迹：它始于1939年土星冥王星的刑克，也以20世纪40年代中期土星海王星那种令人沮丧的相位告终。

You actually see that same arc in the Second World War, which also started cataclysmically under a Saturn Pluto square in 1939 and ended as well under a Saturn Neptune kind of demoralizing transit in the mid-40s.

有趣的是，两次世界大战都承载着这种模式。

So interesting that both world wars carry that pattern.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，这或许是一个很好的过渡点，让我们进入另一个话题——外行星周期。

And so maybe that's a good transition point into the other topic, which is outer planet cycles.

这正是你花了很多时间专注并某种程度上开始专精的领域，对吧？

And this is something that you spent a lot of time focusing on and started to specialize in to some extent, right?

是的。

Yeah.

我认为我对外行星周期的兴趣，当然受到我所继承和源自的占星传统的影响。

And I think that my interest of course in outer planetary cycles is definitely informed by the astrological lineage that I'm carrying and coming out of.

也就是说，比如《宇宙与心灵》中提出的观点也是如此。

Mean, that's the same perspective that's put forward in cosmos and psyche, for example.

我想，我曾经给自己设定了一个任务或目标，那就是成为过去一个世纪左右外行星合相的活星历表。

And I think at one point, I set myself the task or the goal of wanting to be a human ephemeris for outer planetary alignments in at least the last century or so.

还没

Haven't

达成。进展如何？

achieved How's that going?

这始终是一个进行中的过程，但我真的很享受能够感受历史的这种节奏。

It's in process as always is the case, but it's definitely something that I enjoy being able to kind of feel those rhythms of history.

这就是我热爱世俗占星术的原因——历史不再仅仅是一系列日期，每一年都有其独特的质性意义。

And that's what I love about mundane astrology is that instead of history just simply being a series of dates, every year has qualitative meaning to it.

因此，要把握哪些星象发生在特定时期就变得更容易了，因为数字突然有了质的内涵，而不仅仅是量的体现。

And so it becomes easier to have a handle on what alignments happened at which particular times because a number suddenly takes on a quality instead of just a quantity.

我认为这是所有占星师都会经历的一种体验。

I think that's something that astrologers all experience.

是的，当我把占星术应用到历史研究中时，真的会变得非常有趣，因为突然间你就能看到潜藏在世界事件背后的奇特模式和周期性运动；如果你以足够长的时间尺度来看，就能通过行星的运动和 archetype 的显现，发现这些事件之间的联系。

Yeah, I mean, studying history is really fun when you apply astrology to it because all of a sudden you can see these weird patterns and cyclical movements happening underlying world events where if you're looking at it in a long enough timeframe, you can see the connections between the events through the movements of the planets and the archetypes manifesting in that way over long periods of time.

是的，完全正确。

Yeah, absolutely.

我特别感兴趣的一个方面是，当一个人出生时处于某个外行星的相位，而后来在人生中崭露头角、实现自我或创作出伟大作品时，却恰好处于同一组行星的另一个相位之下。

And one area of that that I found really interesting is when an individual is born under one outer planetary alignment, and then in some way they come into prominence or really come into their own or create their great work under another alignment of the same planets.

一个经典的例子是我常提到的巴拉克·奥巴马，他出生于1961年，正值天王星与冥王星合相的开端，而20世纪60年代的天王星冥王星合相与民权运动密切相关；此外，天王星与冥王星的相位历史也与废奴运动等不同时期的发展有着深刻的关联。

One example that it's kind of a classic example that I like is of Barack Obama, who was born in 1961, the beginning of the Uranus Pluto conjunction, and how much the Uranus Pluto conjunction of the 1960s was connected to the civil rights movement, for example, and how the history of Uranus Pluto alignments correlate with different stages and the abolitionist movement, for example.

而奥巴马则在2008年当选总统，正好处于天王星和冥王星下一次相位——四分相的开始。

And that Obama then was elected as president in 2008, right at the beginning of the next alignment of Uranus and Pluto, when they came into a square.

因此，他出生在天王星与冥王星合相的初期，而登上政治舞台、当选美国总统时，又恰逢这两颗行星再次进入新的相位。

And so, born at the beginning of Uranus Pluto conjunction and coming into prominence, being elected president of The United States at the beginning of the next alignment of those same two planets.

是的，我以前没注意到，但他的星盘其实和荣格很相似，都是水瓶座上升，太阳与天王星在狮子座合相，这还挺有趣的。

Yeah, I hadn't noticed this before, but his chart's actually similar to Jung's in that he's in Aquarius rising with the Sun Uranus conjunction in Leo, which is kind of funny.

是的，确实如此。

Yeah, that's true.

他们俩的星盘中太阳和海王星也都是呈四分相。

And they both have the Sun Neptune square as well.

没错，荣格的海王星位于金牛座早期，而奥巴马的海王星则位于天蝎座第八度，在另一端。

Right, with Jung's being down in early Taurus as Neptune and Obama's being up at eight degrees of Scorpio on the other end.

很有趣。

Interesting.

他们

They

两人都具备那种由太阳与海王星相位带来的魅力，当然也具备塑造和投射某种特定形象的能力。

both have that kind of charisma that can come with the Sun Neptune and certainly the capacity to carry on image and a projection of a certain kind of image as well.

当然。

Sure.

所以你是在指出他星盘中的天王星与冥王星合相。

So you're pointing out the Uranus Pluto conjunction in his chart.

那么后来的星象显现是什么？

And then what was the later transit manifestation?

他在2008年当选为美国总统，正好处于天王星与冥王星下一次相位形成的开端。

That he was elected president of The United States in 2008, right at the beginning of the next alignment of Uranus and Pluto.

当他出生时，天王星与冥王星正处于合相，他生命的头十年都生活在这个合相的影响下，而当他当选公职时，这两颗行星再次即将形成新的相位，而他作为美国历史上首位黑人总统，承载着20世纪60年代民权运动的希望。

So when they had moved from the conjunction that they were coming into when he was born and he spent the first decade of his life living under that conjunction, and then he's elected to office right as those same two planets are coming into alignment again, and in so many ways as the first black president in The United States carrying the promise of the civil rights movement in the 1960s.

因此，无论是主题上还是星象上，都存在着这种关联。

So thematically, there's a connection as well, but astrologically too, there's that connection.

对。

Right.

好的，这太棒了。

Okay, that's brilliant.

我喜欢这个观点。

I love that.

这是一个非常好的例子，因为天王星与冥王星的合相在20世纪60年代对民权运动以及那个年代发生的其他事件起到了核心作用。

That's a really good example just because of how central the Uranus Pluto conjunction was in the 1960s on the civil rights movements and some of the other things that were happening in that decade.

是的。

Yeah.

另一个与天王星和冥王星相关的例子，涉及不同的天王星冥王星主题，同样是被压迫人群的解放。

Another example that is also connected to Uranus Pluto, a different Uranus Pluto theme, also a liberation of oppressed people.

但这次不是美国的非裔美国人，而是女性和女权运动。

But instead of African Americans in The United States, it's women and the feminist movement and the women's movement.

如果我们回溯几个世纪，看看玛丽·沃斯通克拉夫特，她出生于1795年，出生时正好是天王星与冥王星的刑相。

And if we go back several centuries to Mary Wollstonecraft, who was born in 1795, she was born with the Uranus Pluto square.

她在1792年出版了名为《女权辩护》的宣言，当时正值天王星与冥王星形成对冲相位。

And she published her manifesto which was called Vindication of the Rights of Woman in 1792 under the subsequent opposition of Uranus and Pluto.

这与法国大革命发生在同一时期的对立情况相同。

That was the same opposition that happened at the same time as the French Revolution.

这部作品《女权辩护》确实是欧洲女权主义的奠基性文本。

And this text, Vindication of the Rights of Woman, really is kind of the foundational text of European feminism.

同样，她出生时正值天王星刑克冥王星，而这部作品的出版则发生在天王星对冲冥王星之时。

And again, this theme she was born with Uranus square Pluto and then publishes this work under Uranus opposite Pluto.

她的女儿几年后出生时，正好也处于相同的天王星对冲冥王星的星象格局中。

Her daughter actually was born under that same Uranus opposite Pluto alignment just a few years later.

她的女儿是玛丽·沃斯通克拉夫特·雪莱，她撰写了《弗兰肯斯坦》，这部作品的出版正值下一次天王星与冥王星的相位配置。

Her daughter is Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley, who wrote Frankenstein, which was published under the next alignment of Uranus and Pluto.

天王星——这种狡黠觉醒的原型——与普罗米修斯的神话之间存在着关联。

And there's a relationship between Uranus, that kind of trickster awakening archetype, and Prometheus, the myth of Prometheus.

《弗兰肯斯坦》的副标题正是‘现代的普罗米修斯’。

And the subtitle of Frankenstein is the modern Prometheus.

因此，你在这里看到的不仅是同一个家族中多代人持续出现的天王星与冥王星相位模式，而且它们还都涉及不同的女性主义议题。

So you have here not just a multi generational pattern of Uranus Pluto alignments within one family, but they're also both dealing with different feminist issues.

玛丽·沃斯通克拉夫特在《女权辩护》中明确地表达了这一点，而玛丽·雪莱则以更微妙或富有创意的方式，呼应了那种‘医生’的冲动。

Mary Wollstonecraft, in a very clear way, with Vindication of the Rights of Woman, and then Mary Shelley, in more subtle or creative ways, but calling out the impulse of Doctor.

《弗兰肯斯坦》中，男人试图在没有女性参与的情况下创造生命，成为现代的普罗米修斯，窃取天界的火焰或生命，创造出一种缺乏家庭滋养、缺乏女性力量的生命。

Frankenstein to create life without a woman that a man can be the modern Prometheus and steal fire or steal life from the heavens and create a life without the nurturance of a family context or without the Feminine in that way.

所以，这也是我认为非常有趣的一种模式。

So that's another one of those patterns that I thought was quite interesting.

是的。

Sure.

所以基本原理有两个，其中一个就是，有时那些出生时带有特定星象相位、尤其是外行星的困难相位的人，在他们生命后期遇到类似的星象相位——特别是由同一对行星再次形成困难相位时——会经历重要的发展。

So the underlying principle, there's two, but one of them is sometimes people born under specific alignments especially hard aspects of outer planets will have an important development that represents that at some point later in their life when there's a similar alignment especially a hard aspect by the same two planets.

没错。

Exactly.

当然，这并不总是成立。

And of course, this isn't always the case.

有些人会在不同的星象相位下才崭露头角，但他们的星盘或行运总会在某种程度上被激活。

Some people will come into greater prominence under a different alignment, but of course, they're having their chart or their transits are being activated in some way.

只是它的表现形式更为复杂而已。

It's just a more complex expression.

所以这个规律并非百分之百固定不变的，但当它出现时，还是非常值得玩味的。比如说，有些人仿佛在替整个时代承载着某种特质，将这种特质体现在自己的人生与事业中，并且以某种方式串联起了这些星象排布的不同阶段。

So this isn't a 100% consistent pattern, but it is quite interesting when it shows up, when someone's kind of carrying something maybe on behalf of a generation, for example, and express that in their being and in their work and are bridging between these alignments in some way.

确实是这样。

Sure.

第二个底层逻辑是，尤其是外行星的合相，会为某件事埋下种子、打下基础，这件事随后会在这个星象周期的整个进程中不断生长发展，无论周期长短；你会在关键的转折点看到它的演变——也就是当行星形成刑相、冲相，再到后刑相的时候，你就可以追溯当初合相阶段所开启的一切事物是如何发展、成熟起来的。

And the second one is that especially outer planet conjunctions will lay the seeds or the foundations of something that will then grow and develop over the course of that cycle, however long it is, and that you'll see critical turning pointsespecially at the hard aspects of the square and the opposition and then the waning square so that you can track the development and maturation of whatever was initiated at that time at the conjunction.

对，我觉得这个看待问题的角度确实非常准确，能把整个模式的全貌都考虑进去。

Yeah, I mean, I think that is definitely a really accurate way to look at it, taking in kind of the whole of the pattern.

而且我认为，比如说土星和冥王星的星象就很适合用这个思路来分析，因为总体来说它们的运行周期比较短。

And I think that, for example, Saturn Pluto is a good one to look at with that because they're shorter cycles in general.

上一次它们形成合相还是在80年代初，而现在这两颗行星即将迎来下一次合相。

We had the last conjunction in the early '80s, and now we're having the next conjunction of those two planets.

我们在人的一生里就能追踪到这个星象的变化。

We can track that within a lifetime.

以天王星和海王星为例，这种情况就更难做到了，因为它们的周期要分散得多。

It's harder to do that, for example, with Uranus Neptune where it's so much more spread out.

整个二十世纪，它们发生了三次合相。

You had three alignments of that through all of the twentieth century.

是的。

Yeah.

那我们来谈谈这个，因为它与今天的情况密切相关。

Well, let's talk about that because that's really relevant to today.

土星和冥王星的合相周期并不固定，但平均大约每三十一年到三十七年发生一次。

So the Saturn Pluto conjunctions, it varies, but it goes on average every thirty one to thirty seven years.

因此，从一次合相到下一次合相，大约就是这个时间跨度。

So that's approximately how long it takes from conjunction to conjunction.

在上个世纪，第一次合相就是我们经常提到的那次，发生在第一次世界大战初期的二十世纪初。

And the first one in terms of the past century was the one we've been talking about a lot which happened around the start of World War I in the early twentieth century.

那次合相开启了整个周期，随后在接下来的三到四十年间逐步展开，直到冷战初期再次出现了一次合相。

And that sort of was the opening of the cycle that then played out over the course of the next thirty or forty years until there was eventually another conjunction at the beginning of the Cold War.

然后这开启了一个新的时期。

Then that opened up a new period.

但也许仅仅聚焦于第一个，我们就能看到，那次土星与冥王星的合相如何引发了全球范围的巨大变革，尤其是在政治和地缘政治等诸多方面，我们完全可以将其视为世界历史上的一个重要转折点。

But maybe even just focusing in on that first one, we can see how that first Saturn Pluto conjunction was such a huge shift in the world in general and in politics and in geopolitics and so many different things that we can really identify that as being an important turning point in world history.

确实如此。

Definitely.

那场战争彻底改变了世界。

The world completely changed with that war.

第一次世界大战所开启的局面，在很大程度上，是在第二次世界大战中完成的。

And what was opened up in the First World War was, in a lot of ways, completed through the Second World War.

第二次世界大战是在土星与冥王星的下降四分相期间爆发的，而到下一次合相开始时——也就是与冷战开端相对应的那次合相——战争已经结束了。

And the Second World War was started under the waning square of Saturn and Pluto and was done by the time the next conjunction started, the one that correlated with the beginning of the Cold War.

从某种意义上说，你把第一次和第二次世界大战看作是一场战争，因为它们涉及相同的问题，只是这些问题在两次大战之间并未得到解决。

And that First and Second World War you kind of view it as one war in some ways involving the same issues they just hadn't been resolved between the First World War and the second.

这直接促成了苏联的诞生，并引发了冷战的开启，而冷战时期的种种紧张局势，其顶峰正是在20世纪80年代初的土星与冥王星合相期间达到的。

And that then gave birth to the Soviet Union and what led to the opening of the Cold War and how all the tensions of the Cold War really were at a great peak height under the Saturn Pluto conjunction of the early '80s.

所以还是一样，这整个周期里的所有事件都是如此：苏联解体是在另一种不同的行星相位下发生的，比如1989年柏林墙倒塌，当时木星与土星、天王星、海王星形成对分相，那当然是另一种行星排布。

So again, that same kind of full cycle between those two everything that while the Soviet Union disbanded or fell under a later different alignment the Berlin Wall falling, for example, in 1989 under Jupiter opposite Saturn Uranus Neptune that's of course a different configuration of planets.

但这些紧张局势在1980年至1984年的土星冥王星合相期间达到了顶峰，尤其是在1982年前后。

But the tensions really being at their peak under that Saturn Pluto conjunction of 1980 to 'eighty four, especially around 1982.

不过一战发生时的那次合相很有参考性，你能看到从那个节点开启的一切，一战所引发的趋势直接延续了下去，如果没有一战爆发，接下来30年里发生的很多后续事件都不可能出现。

But the World War I conjunction is great in terms of you can see how what started at that point and what was initiated with World War I led directly into and a lot of the stuff that followed after that over the next thirty years wouldn't have happened if World War I hadn't taken place.

没有一战就不会有二战，二战爆发的很多根源都直接来自于一战以及一战的善后处理方式。

Without World War I, there is no World War II that many of the reasons for the second war grew directly out of the first war and how it was resolved.

完全没错。

Exactly.

而且这些问题直到今天仍在发挥影响。

And those issues still continuing to be at play.

我是说，就拿美国和中东之间的所有冲突举例，这些矛盾的根源都能追溯到一战结束的时候——当时欧美列强几乎是随意地把中东地区瓜分殆尽，完全无视那片土地原本的局势，完全是一副殖民主义的做派。

I mean, we can look at the whole conflict between The US and The Middle East, for example, as rooted in the end of the First World War because of how The Middle East was just almost arbitrarily carved up by European and American powers and just disregarding what is actually happening in that part of the world, this colonialist mindset.

一战以及当时展开的局势、战争的收尾方式，或者说那场战争没能妥善收尾的问题，催生了太多的矛盾。

So much was initiated by the First World War, what unfolded then, how it was concluded, or how it wasn't well concluded.

我认为在某些方面，这与土星与海王星结束战争的阶段有关，那时人们普遍感到士气低落，觉得这一切必须停止；而第二次世界大战也呈现出类似的模式：战争以一场灾难性的冲突开始，希特勒入侵了多个国家，最终又以土星与海王星对大屠杀和毒气室等暴行的觉醒告终，同样出现了一种认知上的转变，人们开始正视这场巨大的悲剧。

And I think in some ways perhaps that's connected to the Saturn Neptune ending of the war where there's just this demoralization and the sense of this just has to stop and how that same kind of patterning was the case with the Second World War II, beginning with that cataclysmic conflict and then Hitler invading various countries and then also ending with that Saturn Neptune recognition of what's happening in the Holocaust and the gas chambers and so forth, where there's also that shift and the recognition of the intense tragedy.

对。

Right.

这在时间点上是个很好的例子。

And this is a good example in terms of timing.

对于那些不太熟悉二十世纪早期历史的人来说，第一次世界大战大约从1914年中期持续到1918年底。

So for those that aren't up to date on their early twentieth century history, World War I was from about mid-nineteen fourteen until late nineteen eighteen.

我正在看这张星盘图，确认具体的合相位置，看起来至少在1915年5月，土星与冥王星合相于巨蟹座一度左右。

It looks like I'm just looking at the chart for the exact conjunctions, but it looks like there was one of them at least at around one degree of Cancer, the Saturn Pluto conjunction in May 1915.

所以，另一个关于外行星周期的入门知识点是：有时外行星之间只发生一次合相，但有时也会出现多次，甚至三次，对吧？

So I guess one of the other intro to outer planet cycle things is that sometimes there's just one conjunction between outer planets and other times there's multiple there can be three, right?

是的，完全正确。

Yeah, exactly.

而如今就是一个很好的例子，我们现在正经历着土星与冥王星的合相。

And actually, now is a good example of that where we have the current Saturn Pluto conjunction.

而且他们在一月完成了一次精确的合相。

And they just made one exact alignment in January.

但这正说明了容差范围的重要性，我们一直看到土星与冥王星的主题以多种方式显现，无论是性丑闻、腐败、国际冲突的可能性，还是生态方面的火灾和洪水，当然，如今冠状病毒正是土星冥王星合相的巅峰体现。

But this kind of speaks to the importance of orbs where we've been seeing Saturn Pluto themes of multiple kinds, whether it's sexual scandals or corruption or the potential of international conflict and the ecological side of things the fires and flooding and now, of course, in a lot of ways, peak of the Saturn Pluto alignment with the coronavirus.

尽管一月只出现了一次精确合相，但我们正经历着一种原型能量的浪潮，它开始显现，并将在2021年逐渐消退——这可以与目前正在发生的木星冥王星合相相比较，后者在今年内将经历三次精确交汇。

And even though there's just that one exact alignment in January, we're seeing kind of a wave of the archetypal energy that starts to come in and then will start to fade out through 2021 comparing that to, for example, the Jupiter Pluto conjunction that's happening right now as well, where that's gonna get three exact passes throughout this year.

对。

Right.

是的，我喜欢用一种方式来可视化它，Kyle从Archetypal Explorer制作了一个图表，标出了当前土星冥王星合相的精确位置，同时也展示了这两颗行星在逆行时如何靠近或远离合相点。

Yeah, one of the ways that I like to visualize it, there was a diagram that was made by Kyle from Archetypal Explorer who sort of plotted it on a graph and showed the exact conjunction of the current Saturn Pluto conjunction, but also when the two planets would sort of retrograde back and come back with an orb or come closer to the conjunction versus when they're further away.

我来快速分享一下这个图表，给观看视频版的观众，因为它有助于理解这些周期中的强度高峰期。

Let me share that for those watching the video version really quickly just because it's helpful conceptualizing these things in terms of maybe peak periods of intensity.

但即使没有精确合相，那些时期的能量依然非常显著。

But even if it doesn't go exact, the energy is still being very prominent during those times.

没错。

Exactly.

我认为凯尔制作的这些图表非常有帮助，能清晰地看到能量何时开始显现、何时增强并达到高峰，以及何时逐渐消退。

And I think that those graphs that Kyle makes are so helpful just in terms of seeing when it starts to come in, when it intensifies and peaks, and when it's going out.

我相信在《宇宙与灵魂》一书中提到过，在重大全球星象过渡的后期，比如20世纪60年代末期，乌拉诺斯与普鲁托合相的尾声，集体意识中会呈现出这些原型特质的饱和状态。

There is something that I believe is actually written about in Cosmos and Psyche that in the later part of a major world transit, like at the end of the 1960s, for example, at the end of the Uranus Pluto conjunction then, there is a saturation of the archetypal qualities in the collective.

因此，尽管这两颗行星正逐渐远离彼此——而我们现在正处于这个阶段，即天王星与冥王星刑相的黄昏时刻，这种相位自2007年末以来一直存在于天穹之中。

So even though the two planets are moving further apart from each other And we're in that moment right now, like it's the sunset moment of Uranus square Pluto, which we've had in the sky basically since late two thousand and seven.

它们正在分离。

They're separating.

它们终于越过了刑相的10度容许度范围。

They're finally past their 10 degree point for the square, for the orb.

但我认为，集体意识中这些原型特质仍处于高度饱和状态，或许此时仍存在比周期初期更多的相关表现，即使距离相同，因为在这段时间里，大量反映这些原型特质的事件已被激活。

But I think there's a kind of saturation of those archetypal qualities in the collective where maybe there are still more correlations present than at the beginning of the cycle when they're just starting to come in even though it's the same distance just because so much has been set in motion in that time that's reflective of those archetypal qualities.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，过去几个月里一个非常明显的问题是，土星与冥王星在1月合相，当时发生了一些事情，比如澳大利亚的森林大火，以及美国突然刺杀伊朗将军后，美伊之间的紧张局势急剧上升。

I mean, one of the problems that became really super evident over the past few months was the conjunction happened of Saturn and Pluto in January and there was some stuff going on like the Australian wildfires and everything else and the sudden rise in tensions between The US and Iran when The US assassinated an Iranian general suddenly.

但我记得几个月前我看过一位传统占星师的博客，他当时还特意写了一整个系列的文章，说冥王星根本不重要。

But I remember there being a traditional astrologer whose blog I was watching a few months ago, and he he was said trying to go on and write this whole series about how Pluto is not important.

他还试图论证，今年1月根本没发生什么重大的全球性事件。

And he tried to make the point that nothing significant happened in January in terms of world events.

他以此来证明占星师们都在过度炒作土星冥王星合相的影响。

This was a demonstration that astrologers were over hyping the Saturn Pluto conjunction.

但几个月后的现在我们都知道了，那段时间里一种全新的病毒正在悄然扩散——它刚完成跨物种传播，就在潜伏、蔓延，即将夺走数千甚至可能数十万人的生命，只是几个月后它才彻底爆发出来，当时的我们对此还一无所知。

But now we know a few months later that during that time, there was literally a virus that was developing that was brand new that had just jumped species and was building up and spreading and was about to kill thousands of people or potentially hundreds of thousands of people as it would eventually emerge a few months later, but we just didn't know about it yet.

所以外行星连线的一个问题在于，尤其是当你正身处这个阶段时，世界正在发生重大变化，但你当下可能根本看不清这些变化究竟是什么，这些变化的全部影响要等到日后回顾时才会显现，有时甚至要等几十年。

So one of the issues with outer planet alignments, especially when you're living through it at the time, is major changes are happening in the world, but it may not be evident right in the moment exactly what those changes are or the full effects of the changes may not be apparent until retrospect, sometimes even decades later.

就好比如果你告诉那些亲身经历了1914到1915年第一次土星冥王星合相的人，这次合相会在接下来三四十年里给整个世界带来怎样的影响，他们大概率根本不会相信你——毕竟那之后发生了第一次世界大战，还有二战带来的种种影响，以及其他所有的剧变。

Like if you were to tell the people who were living through that first Saturn Pluto conjunction in nineteen fourteen-nineteen fifteen what effects over the next thirty or forty years that conjunction would have on the world in general, they probably just wouldn't have believed you in terms of World War I and the effects of that and World War II and everything else.

我觉得这个观点太重要了：作为占星师，我们如今本质上是置身于历史内部去观察它，所以我们根本无法把握完整的全局视角。

I think that's such an important point to make that as astrologers essentially viewing history from the inside right now that we just can't take in the full perspective.

不过从很多方面来说，我们现在拥有比以往任何时候都更强的全局认知能力，这都要归功于如今全球互联的程度，还有新闻传播等条件的发展。

In a lot of ways, we have more of the capacity to now than ever before just because of how interconnected the globe is and news and so on.

但正是如此，有太多东西是隐藏的，比如某些事物的隐秘开端，这些只有在事后才能显现。

But exactly, there's so much that's hidden, like these hidden beginnings of something that really can only be revealed later.

这就是为什么我认为，尤其是在外行星周期中，长远的回顾视角特别有帮助，能够看到其完整的全貌。

And that is why I think especially with outer planetary cycles, it's the long retrospective view that's really helpful where you see kind of the fullness of it.

我们现在可以获得一些视角，例如，本世纪初的土星与冥王星相位，以及与9·11事件相关的土星冥王星对冲。

And we gain perspective now, for example, for example, the Saturn Pluto at the beginning of this Millennium, the Saturn Pluto opposition that correlated with nineeleven.

我最近一直在思考，像格蕾塔·通贝里这样的人出生于2003年，正好在那轮土星冥王星对冲即将结束之际，而她后来成为倡导应对气候变化的代表人物，于2018年登上世界舞台，那时正是土星冥王星合相开始形成之际。

I've been thinking a lot lately about the fact that certain individuals like Greta Thunberg was born in 2003 near the end of that Saturn Pluto opposition and how she has come into prominence as an advocate on behalf of doing something about climate change, and that she entered the world stage in 2018, right, as the Saturn Pluto conjunction was starting to come into orbit.

因此，这里再次体现出一个人出生时的星象 alignments 与他/她后来成长成熟之间的关联。

And so there's this connection again of an individual born with the alignment coming into her own in some way.

当然，她还很年轻，所以她‘成熟’的具体形态是什么，这一点也很重要——看待一个人一生的完整历程，与看待一个历史时刻或两颗行星完整周期的全过程，在很多方面是相似的。

Of course, she's very young still, so what her own may be, again, that's also important that looking at the full arc of a life is the same in a lot of ways as looking at the full arc of a historical moment or a full cycle of two planets with each other.

是的，当你观察土星周期时，比如一个人的土星回归和第二次土星回归，这一点就变得非常清晰。

Yeah, because that becomes really clear when you're sitting Saturn cycles, like a person's Saturn return and their second Saturn return.

如果你追踪那些刑相和对冲相，看到它们如何开启新事物，再观察这些主题在接下来三十年不同关键转折点上的发展与成熟，通常在个人星盘中会变得非常明显；但同样的原则也适用于全球性事件。

And if you follow the squares and the oppositions and see them starting something new and then see the development and maturation of those themes at those different critical turning points over the course of the next thirty years, it becomes really evident in an individual's chart usually are really clear, but the same principle also applies to just world events in general.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

这就是一种认知：我们正身处一个故事的进程之中。

It's this recognition that we're in the middle of a story.

要是你发现自己正处在一段故事的中间位置，你身在其中就根本没法预知这个故事的结局会是什么。

And if you find yourself in the middle of a tale, you don't know if you're within it how it's going to end.

只有当故事迎来结局时，你当初为抵达这一步所经历的一切才会真正拥有清晰的脉络。

And it's only that ending of the story that really provides context on what you went through to get to that point.

而占星学恰好为我们提供了这种叙事框架，这是宇宙赠予我们的珍贵馈赠。

And astrology offers us that kind of narrative, which is an amazing gift of the cosmos.

但我们必须认清，当下我们仍身处这一进程之中。

But we have to recognize we're still in the middle of it.

举个例子来说，我们此刻采取的行动，对于这一切未来会如何发展，起着至关重要的作用。

And what actions we take, for example, are so key even, to how it will unfold.

我想，这恰恰体现了占星学里的参与性特质：从某种意义上来说，我们或许正被集体所感召，要在当下这个时代承担起属于自己的责任。

I mean, that's again where I think there is this participatory element that we're, in some sense, maybe being called by the collective to step into certain roles at this time.

如果说我们能从一件事里有所收获，那就是观察那些在外行星排列周期中发表了伟大作品或是崭露头角的人，他们都出生于这两颗行星上一次相同的排列周期之下，这件事或许能在某种层面上给我们带来启发。

And if there's anything to take from looking at how different individuals have published their great work or come into some kind of prominence under an outer planetary alignment that they were born under a previous alignment of those same two planets, maybe that in some ways can be an inspiration.

举个例子，那些出生时土星与冥王星、木星与冥王星、土星与天王星，或是木星与土星形成特定星象的人。

So for example, those born with Saturn Pluto or Jupiter Pluto or Saturn Uranus or Jupiter Saturn.

所有这些行星的合相都正在发挥作用，并且这种影响会在未来几年内持续。

We've got all of them at play right now and within the next few years.

这或许是对所有这些不同年代出生的人们发出的召唤。

Maybe it's a call to all of those different generations.

你要如何运用自己毕生打磨的天赋？毕竟星盘里早已埋下这份禀赋，而当下你正需要将它施展出来——或许此刻你献出这份才能，就能成为扭转历史走向的关键力量？

How can you apply the gifts that you've been working on your whole life because you have this in your chart to this moment because maybe you have that gift that can be offered right now that will make the difference in bending history in a certain direction?

没错。

Sure.

对，我很喜欢这个非常乐观的看法。现在全球各类事件里，太多旧体系都在崩塌重塑，而这个观点让我们能从当下的处境里挖掘出有价值的方向。

Yeah, I like that as the very optimistic take in wanting to have something useful out of this where we can see so many structures suddenly crumbling and changing in world events in general.

至少有一点我们可以明确，或者说所有占星师，尤其是研究长期行星周期的原型占星师都会认同：当我们身处土星与冥王星的合相周期中，未来一年里将会发生诸多变迁，这些变化还会在接下来的三四十年里持续产生深远影响。

I guess the thing that we can say at the very least or that astrologers would say or that an archetypal astrologer would say that looks at long term planetary cycles is that being in the midst of a Saturn Pluto conjunction that things are going to change during this time over the course of the next year that will have long term implications over the course of the next thirty and forty years.

也许我们会启动一些结构、叙事和序列，它们将在未来几十年中展开并引发重大的世界变革。

Perhaps we'll put some of the structures and some of the narratives and sequences in play that will play out and cause great world changes over the course of the next few decades.

当然。

Absolutely.

我一直在思考即将到来的星象组合，比如明年更明显的木星与土星形成刑相位，同时对冲天王星，我们可以从上世纪80年代末借鉴一些经验，当时木星与土星、天王星和海王星形成对冲。

I've been thinking a lot about the alignments that are coming in that'll be more apparent, for example, next year of the Jupiter Saturn square Uranus and how can we take something from the late '80s, for example, when Jupiter was opposite Saturn Uranus and Neptune at that time.

那时与柏林墙的倒塌以及冷战紧张局势的缓解相对应。

That correlated with the fall of the Berlin Wall and the dissolution of the tensions that were present in the Cold War.

那是一次结构的突然崩塌，同时也带来了积极突破的感觉。

And that's a sudden collapse of structures and a sense of positive breakthrough at that time.

我们能否将这种历史认知应用到当前和即将到来的时刻？虽然这三颗行星现在的配置不同，但参与的仍是同一组行星，看看那些看似永久的结构如何突然崩塌，从而为新的、富有创造力和创新性的存在方式腾出空间。

Can we apply that historical understanding to our current and upcoming moment of those same three planets being in different configuration it's true but it's the same three planets that are involved and see how the sudden collapse of seemingly permanent structures do make way for some kind of opportunity for new, creative, innovative ways of being.

我只是将这种可能性放在心中。

And I just hold that as a possibility.

当然。

Sure.

是的，我的意思是，那确实是其中一个重要的方面。

Yeah, I mean, that was one of the big.

所以我只是在看明年的情况。

So I'm just looking at that next year.

看起来在一月份，土星位于水瓶座三度，天王星位于金牛座六度，而木星则非常接近地形成对天王星的刑相位，位于水瓶座六度。

It looks like around January, we have Saturn at three degrees of Aquarius and Uranus at six degrees of Taurus and Jupiter is very closely squaring Uranus at six degrees of Aquarius.

这就是你所说的那种星象组合。

So that's the alignment you're talking about.

这不仅仅是木星和天王星的相位，还包括土星和天王星的刑相位。

It's not just the Jupiter Uranus alignment, but also a Saturn Uranus square as well.

没错。

Exactly.

对，而且今年土星和天王星的刑相位已经非常接近了。

Yeah, and that Saturn Uranus square has come pretty close already this year.

虽然还没有完全精确，但它们似乎已经在相互激活了——在民主党初选仍在进行时，有趣的是，两位领先候选人乔·拜登和伯尼·桑德斯都属于1940年代初出生的土星合天王星世代，分别出生于1941年和1942年，而他们所展现的正是两种截然不同的土星与天王星应对变革的方式。

It hasn't gone exact yet, but they seem to be activating each other In following the democratic primary, while that was still unfolding, it was really interesting to see that the two front runners, Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders, were both of the Saturn conjunct Uranus generation of the early 1940s, born in 'forty '1 and 'forty two respectively, and how they were presenting two really different Saturn Uranus approaches to change.

我们是想回到那种以土星为导向、面向过去的常态，还是想以天王星的方式进行革命？

Do we want to go back to normal in that Saturnian oriented toward the past way, or do we want to revolutionize in that more Uranian way?

随着天空中这两颗行星越来越接近，看看这种趋势如何继续展开，不仅在政治层面，也在这些更大的结构性层面，这将会很有趣。

It's going to be interesting to see as those two planets in the sky are coming closer and closer how that continues to unfold, not just politically but at these larger structural levels.

由于新冠病毒以及经济停摆等原因，如今许多结构都受到了质疑。

So many structures are being called into question right now because of the coronavirus and shutting down the economy and so on.

十年前被认为是理所当然的事情，现在突然变得可以被质疑了。

Things that were unquestionable ten years ago suddenly can be.

甚至一年前还看似无可置疑的事情，如今也开始被质疑了，比如资本主义和经济体系：我们为什么要做事情的方式？我们如何意识到自己能如此迅速地放慢甚至停止一切？这又该如何应用于气候变化和生态等领域？

Even things that didn't seem to be questionable a year ago suddenly can be around capitalism and the economy, and why do we do things the way that we do, and recognizing how quickly we can actually slow things down and stop, and how can that be applied in terms of climate change and ecology and so on.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，当我想到土星与冥王星时，这就像一次压力测试，看看是否存在裂缝和问题。

And also, when I think of Saturn Pluto, it's like a stress test of if there are cracks and things.

如果你施加足够的压力，它是会维持住，还是会崩溃？

Like if you put enough pressure on that, will it maintain or does it crumble?

这是一场对世界上各种现有结构——无论是经济、社会还是其他方面——的压力测试。

And this being a stress test on a number of different areas about structures that are existing in the world in general or the economy or socially or what have you.

当你对某事物施加过度压力时，会发生什么？

And what happens when you put an undue strain on something?

它能挺过去吗？还是会崩溃，然后需要以某种方式彻底重建？

Can it survive or does it fall apart and then need to be rebuilt anew in some way?

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，我们现在拥有的是一组非常复杂的行星配置，木星、土星、冥王星的聚集正在相互激活，同时又与天王星形成刑克，而火星在最近几周也一直在强烈激活这一格局，因此这一过程可能以多种不同方式展开。

I think with the pretty complex configuration of planets that we have all activating each other right now with that Jupiter Saturn Pluto Stellium and the square to Uranus and how Mars has so been activating that in recent weeks that there are a lot of different branches and options for how that may come through.

正如你所说，有些事物将经受住考验，证明自己拥有坚实的基础，而其他事物则会彻底崩裂瓦解，实际上已经如此了。

I think as you're saying, some things will prove to stand that test and show, This is a really solid foundation, and other things are just totally going to crack and crumble and already are.

具体哪些方面会如此，我们正在见证，也将逐渐看清，但我认为这将会非常多样化。

So what those specifics will be, we're seeing and we'll come to see, but I think it's gonna be quite diverse.

是的。

Yeah.

回到之前，你提到过20世纪80年代末天王星、海王星和土星的聚集，我想快速在屏幕上展示一下，因为这是一个很好的观点——当前的土星与天王星的刑相，正是处于那个周期之内，并与80年代末那次合相相关联。

Going And back, you mentioned the pile up of Uranus Neptune and Saturn that happened in the late 1980s, and I just wanted to show that on the screen really quickly since it's a really good point that this current Saturn Uranus square then would be within that cycle and would be tied into that conjunction that occurred back then in the late 1980s.

历史上，占星家们将这一现象与20世纪80年代末至90年代初苏联的解体联系在一起。

Historically, astrologers associated this with the fall of the Soviet Union which happened in the late 1980s and early 1990s.

事实上，早在几年前，一位占星师就在一本关于世俗占星的书中预测了这一点，他提到这会对苏联造成严重问题，这本书由尼克·坎皮恩和另外两位占星师合著，我一时想不起他们的名字了。

And it was actually predicted by an astrologer in a book on mundane astrology that came out several years earlier that he had said something about this being really problematic for the Soviet Union that was in the book with Nick Campion and two other astrologers whose names I'm spacing out at the moment.

你记得那本书的具体名字吗？

Do you happen to remember know that one offhand?

很遗憾，我不太记得那本了，但现在我非常想查一查。

I don't know that one offhand unfortunately, but now I'm very curious to look into it.

是的，我觉得那本书就叫《世俗占星》，作者是尼克·坎皮恩、迈克尔·巴德盖特，还有另一位人士。

Yeah, I think it's just titled Mundane Astrology with Nick Campion and Michael Badgett and one other person.

总之，那就是那个合相了。

Anyway, so that's that conjunction right there.

你还提到了发生在9·11事件前后土星与冥王星的对冲。

And then you also mentioned the Saturn Pluto opposition which happened around the time of nineeleven.

说实话，记得当《宇宙》和《普赛克》发布的时候，那段时间在那本书里占据了非常突出的地位，引发了大量讨论，当时我甚至觉得这有点过度了，占用了太多关注，因为那是一个如此近期且看似糟糕的事件。

Honestly, the time, remember, for example, when Cosmos and Psyche came out, that plays a very prominent role and gets a lot of discussion in that book, which at the time I almost felt like was too much or took up too much of the focus because it was such a recent and seemingly terrible event.

但现在回过头来看，你可以隐约看出，那正是上一个土星冥王星合相周期（始于1980年代）的中点，而我们现在正处在该周期的尾声。

But now in retrospect, you can kind of see how that was the halfway point between the beginning of the last Saturn Pluto conjunction cycle in the 1980s and what we're now dealing with at the close of that cycle.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为土星与冥王星的对冲与911事件相关，而那天太阳和月亮也与之对齐，形成了一个大十字格局。

And I think that the Saturn Pluto opposition in correlation with nineeleven, which took place under a grand cross with the Sun and the Moon in alignment with it as well on that day, I believe.

哦，不是的。

Oh, no.

我的意思是，太阳确实参与其中，形成了一个直角结构。

I mean, the Sun's in there in terms of forming a Right.

T

T

太阳参与其中，构成了T型相位。

The Sun is in there making the T square.

不知怎么的，我之前一直以为月亮也参与了这个星象，原来是我记错了。

For some reason, I thought the Moon was involved, but that's my misremembering.

其实在前一天，月亮确实运行到了双子座，在那儿与土星合相，同时和冥王星星位相冲，所以那段时间的星象至少和一个T三角格局是有关联的。

I mean, the day before the Moon did swoop through Gemini where it conjoined Saturn and opposed Pluto and everything, so it's at least tied in with a sort of T square that was happening at that time.

对。

Yeah.

说到9·11这个事件，我觉得重要的不只是事件本身，还有它带来的所有后续影响——伊拉克战争以及那之后爆发、至今仍在持续的一系列动荡，还有ISIS的崛起也和这件事脱不开干系，还有许许多多的连锁事件，说白了我们至今都还深陷在这段历史的进程当中，远没到结束的时候。

Well, with that event, I think that the important thing isn't just the actual event, but all of the fallout, the Iraq War and everything that that unleashed and continues to unleash, and how the rise of ISIS was connected to that, and so many things that again, we're still very much in the middle of the story.

但那个关键时刻确实彻底打开了一个巨大的阴暗世界，我们如今还在承受它带来的种种影响。

But that critical moment really did open up a whole kind of vast shadowy world that we're living with the effects of.

对。

Right.

那这件事就变得非常棘手了。还有一个需要记下来的基本要点是，面对这些外行星运行周期，你必须同时记住两点：一方面，它们有时会预示着某个重大转折点，会以具体事件的形式显现，但事件本身并不是故事的终点；往往更重要的是后续影响，这些影响会持续数年、数十年，甚至更久。

And that's a really tricky thing then in that And another point or basic principle to write down is that sometimes these outer planet cycles, you have to keep both in mind that they are on the one hand both sometimes indicating critical turning points that manifest in a specific event, but that the event itself is not the end of the story, but it's often the other part of that is the after effects that will then last for years or for decades or what have you.

你得时刻留意这两方面：一是事件本身，也就是那个独立的时间节点，二是在那之后会在漫长岁月里不断回荡的冲击波。

And sort of keeping in mind that you're trying to pay attention to both of those, both the event itself or like a discrete moment in time, but also the shock wave that echoes throughout time for a while after that.

我确实觉得我们现在正感受到这一点，新冠病毒、封锁措施、对经济的影响以及所有这些不同层面，都将在未来许多年里持续产生涟漪。

I certainly think that we're feeling that right now where there is such a collective sense that this coronavirus and the lockdown and the effect on the economy and all of these different layers are going to be leaving ripples through many, many years to come.

我们还不知道这会是什么样子，但无论如何，事情都不可能回到去年的样子了。

We don't know what that's going to look like yet, but there's no way that things are just going to go back to the way they were last year.

世界因为这场疫情而改变了，我认为这将被视为一个决定性的时刻。

The world has changed because of this, and I think this will be seen as one of those kind of decisive moments.

是的。

Yeah.

好吧，我们来快速做点什么。

Well, here, let's do something really quickly.

这会是一个有趣的长期项目，但让我们先明确一下时间范围，或者我可以快速查一下接下来的困难相位，以及这个持续三到四十年的周期的其余部分，看看从现在开始、尤其是在未来一年内启动的这些事情，是否会在接下来的三到四十年内——或者这个录音存续的任何时间里——在四分相（上弦）、对冲相、下弦相，最终在三、四十年后的合相时达到成熟并出现关键转折点。

And this will be a fun long term project, but let's just state what the timeframes are or I can look them up really quickly for the next hard aspects and the rest of that thirty to forty year cycle and see over the course of the next thirty to forty years or however long this recording is around if something that is initiated now over the course of especially the next year comes to maturation and reaches a critical turning point in terms of its overall cycle at the waxing square, the first square at the opposition, the Waning Square, and then eventually comes to some sort of conclusion at the conjunction thirty or forty years from now.

你记得那些日期吗？

Do you happen to know those dates offhand?

我希望我记得。

I wish I did.

就目前而言，人类星历的记录范围仅能追溯到过去，并覆盖未来大约十年的时间。

Human ephemeris desires just stretch into the past at this point and through about the next decade.

对。

Right.

我本来还打算对你发起一场关于不同星象排列的突击测试呢，但目前为止你大部分都记得挺清楚的。

I to give you a pop quiz on different alignments, but so far you've remembered most of them pretty well.

我本来还想抛出一个问题：天王星和冥王星的合相发生在什么时候？那大概是20世纪最容易答的一个问题了，对吧？

I was gonna throw out when is the Uranus Pluto conjunction and that's the easiest one probably, right, of the twentieth century?

对，就是1960年到1972年的天王星冥王星合相事件。

Yeah, the Uranus Pluto conjunction from 1960 to 1972.

再往前追溯，30年代还发生过一次刑相。

You have then the previous square in the '30s.

我记得大概是1927年到1937年之间。

I think that's about 1927 to 'thirty seven.

好的。

Okay.

这大约是一个十年的对齐。

It's about a ten year alignment.

然后你有上一次的冲相，涵盖了二十世纪初的时期。

And then you have the previous opposition that encompassed the beginning of the turn of the twentieth century.

我记不清确切的日期了，但我知道它紧随二十世纪初的一系列重大星象之后，因为当时有海王星与冥王星的合相，其峰值大约在1892年，也就是J。

I can't remember those exact dates, but I know that it's coming on the heels of such a great series of transits at the turn of the twentieth century because you get the Neptune Pluto conjunction that really peaked around 1892, which is when J.

R。

R.

R。

R.

托尔金出生的年份，这正是我记得的原因。

Tolkien was born, which is part of why I know that.

希特勒和查理·卓别林都出生在那个时期。

Hitler and Charlie Chaplin were all born within that period.

然后这开启了海王星与冥王星的冲相，接着是1899年至1918年的天王星与海王星的冲相。

And then that opens up into first the Uranus Pluto opposition and then that Uranus Neptune opposition from 1899 to 1918.

所以那真是一系列接连发生、彼此重叠的奇妙行星过境天象。

So just an amazing overlapping series of transits then.

行吧，你这纯粹是在炫技啊。

All right, well, you're just showing off.

不好意思。

Sorry.

没事的。

That's fine.

好的，那我们就来研究一下未来的情况吧。

All right, so let's investigate this then for the future.

土星和冥王星的合相在今年1月精准形成了。

So the Saturn Pluto conjunction, it went exact in January.

你还记得具体是几度吗？

Do you remember the degree offhand?

精准合相的时候是22或23度。

It went exact at 22 or 23 degrees.

是的，看起来是22度。

Yeah, it looks like 22.

好的。

Okay.

对。

Yeah.

好吧，所以是摩羯座22度，看起来是在1月11日或12日左右完全对齐，也就是摩羯座22度。

Okay, so 22 Capricorn and it looks like it went exact on January 11, January 12, around that time, so 22 Capricorn.

你提到一个容许度，对吧？

And you said a orb, right?

是的，对于合相来说。

Yes, for the conjunction.

我认为它实际上从2017年12月就开始进入影响范围，但真正显著地显现是在2018年，尤其是2019年，并将持续到2021年。

That would have come in I think, actually by December 2017, but really starting to come in through 2018, definitely 2019, and will go out through 2021.

是的。

Yeah.

老实说，我想提出一个可能对你有帮助的建议。

And honestly, this is something I wanted to propose that might be useful for you.

我认为，基于度数的相位会带来一种强度水平，这种强度会随着接近精确度数而越来越明显、强烈，或者用你愿意的任何词来形容，尤其是在进入15度范围之后。

I think there's an intensity level, a level of intensity that the degree based aspect brings into effect that gets increasingly more and more prominent or intense or whatever word you want to use for that, the closer it gets to the degree, especially once it's within that 15 degree range.

一旦进入一度范围内，强度还会进一步增加。

Then there's sort of like an increasing level of intensity once it gets within a degree.

但在某些情况下，我发现即使没有进入这个范围，观察它们进入星座层面的对齐也有用，因为有时在那个阶段，一些问题和主题就已经开始显现或关联起来。

But in some instances, I found it to be useful even to watch when they move into the sign based alignment that sometimes you'll start seeing some of the issues and some of the themes start to correlate or start to constellate at that point even if they're not within that range.

因此，从日常角度来说，星座层面和度数层面的成分可能存在某种重叠，都具有相关性。

So there might be like an overlapping thing where the sign based component and the degree based component could be relevant in some way from a mundane perspective.

我其实也在想这个问题。

I was thinking about that actually.

我听了你关于四月星象的那期节目，你提到过这一点。

I listened to your episode on the transits for April, and you brought that up.

我认为同时从这两个角度去观察，确实能带来很多洞察和清晰度。

And think that kind of looking through both of those lenses simultaneously really does shed a lot of light and a lot of clarity.

还有星座层面以及那些更大的容许度，如果你能把这两点都放在心上，对，那确实能揭示出更多宏观的关联模式。

And the sign based and those wider orbs, if you kind of hold both of those in mind, yeah, that does really kind of reveal more of the larger correlating patterns.

要是把这两种视角结合起来，总好过只盯着精准合相，然后抱怨说‘哎，一月什么事都没发生，这都是炒作’。

Comparing both of those compared to just looking at the exact conjunction and saying, Oh, nothing happened in January This was overhyped.

觉得非得是1月11日周六那天才行，非得精准落在那一天。

On Saturday, January 11 or whatever, that it had to be exact like that day.

可如果真的是那样的话，那我们就得回到你之前提到的那个时间点——也就是2011年12月，当时土星首次进入摩羯座，大概就是在那个时候，土星和冥王星同时开始形成星座层面以及度数层面的合相。

So if that was true though, that would take us back to the date that you mentioned before which was December 2011 which is when Saturn first went into Capricorn and then would have begun I guess both the sign based and the degree based conjunction around that time with Pluto.

2017年12月。

December 2017.

你刚才说的是这个吗？

That what you said?

应该是吧。

Think so.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的，那就是土星进入摩羯座的时候。

Yeah, that's when Saturn went into Capricorn.

让我快速把它调出来。

Let me just put it up really quickly.

在这里。

There it is.

所以土星于2037年12月进入摩羯座。

So Saturn moved into Capricorn on December 2037.

那时冥王星也在摩羯座，但土星很快就会进入至少那个范围，没过多久。

So Pluto's at of Capricorn at that point, but Saturn would quickly move into at least the range not too long after that.

是的。

Yeah.

看起来是在二月初。

It looks like by early February.

哪怕只是从星象逻辑来想：冥王星落在摩羯座这个土星守护的星座里，随后土星也进入摩羯座与它会合，我觉得这会从方方面面极大地增强这一星象合相的影响力。

And even just thinking about that in terms of Pluto being in Capricorn as this Saturn ruled sign and then Saturn comes in and joins it, it just really amplifies this particular conjunction, I think, in so many ways.

对。

Yeah.

是啊，如果把这个星象的背景拉回到冥王星最初进入摩羯座的时候，也就是2009年2月左右它刚进入摩羯座的时候，那段时间刚好爆发了全球金融危机，也就是当时的大衰退。

Well, when you take it into the context of what the start of that transit was like when Pluto first went into Capricorn where that ingress took place around 02/2009, and then we had the worldwide financial crisis and the Great Recession that took place at that point.

没错。

Yeah.

而且要再次说明，正是有了这些多重视角能同时——

And again, it's having those multiple lenses that simultaneouslythis

——就是

is

——占星学中绝妙的星象排布：冥王星进入摩羯座的时机，恰好赶上自1929年大萧条那场星象后，首次出现的土星、天王星、冥王星T三角格局。

just the extraordinary orchestration of astrology where Pluto moves into Capricorn right at the same time as there's the first Saturn Uranus Pluto T square since the one that happened in 1929 with the Great Depression.

而这三颗行星——土星、天王星和冥王星——下一次形成T三角，也正好是冥王星进入摩羯座的时候，这一时期和经济大衰退的时间线相吻合。

Very next time those three planets Saturn, Uranus, and Pluto come into a T square happens to be also when Pluto ingresses into Capricorn and they correlate with the Great Recession.

在某些方面，这真是一种非凡的协同作用。

It's just such an extraordinary orchestration in some ways.

没错。

Right.

它也揭示了这一切的复杂性，以及有时试图将一切归因于单一因素是多么困难，或者当你试图将一切归结为一个特定的星象时，可能会显得过于简化，因为通常有太多因素在同时作用。

And it also points out just the complexity of all of it and maybe how sometimes it's difficult to put it all on one thing or how sometimes it can be reductive if you try to put it on just one alignment when there's often so much going on.

这确实是世俗占星术普遍面临的一个挑战：任何时刻都有如此多不同的星象在同时发生，很难跟踪并整合所有这些信息。

That's really one of the challenges of Mundane astrology in general is just there's so many different alignments going on at any one time that it's hard to keep track and synthesize all of them.

是的，完全正确。

Yeah, absolutely.

在某些方面，从坚持一种方法开始可能会有所帮助。

And that is where in some ways it can be helpful starting off to commit to one approach, for example.

对我而言，通过行星和相位来进入占星学习是非常有帮助的，然后一层一层地逐步增加更多内容。

For me, it was very helpful to enter into that astrological learning practice through planets and aspects, and then layering in and layering in more and more.

否则，我认为对于刚接触占星的人来说，整体感觉可能会完全令人不知所措——我甚至不知道该从哪条路开始，又该如何同时把握这么多不同的视角和技巧。

Because otherwise, I think it can just speaking in general to maybe someone who's newer to astrology, it can feel totally overwhelming of, I don't even know which path to go down and how do I hold all these different perspectives and techniques at once.

我认为这可能就是我们的直觉引导我们去做的——好吧，我现在就先用这种方法，然后看看它会如何展开和延伸。

And I think that's maybe where our intuition draws us to of, Okay, I'm gonna work with this for now and then see how it opens up and opens up.

对，确实如此。

Right, definitely.

哦，你请说。

Oh, go ahead.

我其实有个问题想问你，是关于这些概念的，特别是土星返照。传统上，人们认为土星返照是从土星进入命盘中土星所在星座的那一刻开始的。

I had a question I wanted to ask you actually around kind of these same concepts in terms of the Saturn return and that the traditional technique is to count the Saturn return as starting from when Saturn ingresses into the sign that the natal Saturn is in.

对吗？

Is that correct?

你所说的‘传统’是指古代的方法吗？

Well, what do you mean by traditional, like the ancient approach to it?

土星返照其实更像是一种近现代才被占星师们特别关注和研究的现象，他们通常更聚焦于土星精确回到原位度数的那一刻。

Like the Saturn return more a recent thing that astrologers really focus on and study as a thing unto itself where they tend to be more focused on the exact degree based Saturn return.

但确实，在重新引入一些传统概念时，比如将星座相位视为相关且有效的，我一开始将这些应用到现代占星实践中时，立刻注意到：土星返照其实从土星一回到命盘中的原始星座时就开始了，直到它完全离开该星座才结束，这就形成了一个比人们通常所认为的宽得多的时间窗口。

But yeah, part of in bringing back some traditional concepts, one of them being sign based aspects as being relevant and being valid in some way, one of the things when I started applying that to modern concepts that I noticed right away was that the Saturn return really begins as soon as Saturn returns back to its natal sign and it doesn't fully end until it departs from that sign, which creates a much broader time window than people are usually used to thinking about.

所以我很好奇——因为我在计算土星回归时会采用非常大的度数容许度，比如提前观察，甚至可能提前20度来了解相关情况，再把这个和你刚才描述的内容对应起来，你有没有发现，如果某人的出生星盘里的土星非常靠近星座的开端或者末端，会出现什么情况？

So what I'm curious aboutbecause I tend to use a very wide orb degree wise to calculate the Saturn return, like looking before or even maybe 20 to get a sense for that and mapping that onto what you're describing, what have you found when someone's natal Saturn is very close to either the beginning of the sign or the end?

举个例子，如果土星落在摩羯座28度，现在土星会再次逆行回到这个位置、再次穿过这个度数，而当它最后一次离开这个星座时，从度数上看依然和这个位置离得很近。

Let's say Saturn is at 28 degrees Capricorn and Saturn, of course, now is going to dip back in and cross over that, but when it leaves for the last time, it's still degree wise very close.

我就是很好奇，你有没有观察到，如果土星落在的度数比较靠后，土星回归的相关议题会持续更久？

And I'm just curious what you found in terms of it seeming like Saturn return themes linger if the degree is later.

这个问题——对，你能明白我的意思吗？

Does that question Yeah, make

这完全说得通，因为问题在于你要如何调和这两种方法。

it totally makes sense because it's the question of how do you reconcile those two approaches.

而我认为答案就是容许度依然很重要，尤其是当土星运行到一个星座的开端或末尾阶段时。

And I think the answer is that the orb still matters and especially if it's really early in the sign or really late in the sign.

如果运行中的土星走到与出生星图土星的三度范围内，你确实会感受到土星回归的强烈影响——如果土星运行到星座初期，这种影响就已经开始显现；如果运行到星座末尾，影响还会持续存在，留下一些后续余波。

And if transiting Saturn gets up to especially within three degrees of that, you really do see the intensity of the Saturn return either already beginning at that point or still coming back and showing some lingering after effects if Saturn is late in the sign.

所以对，容许度的作用确实一直存在，这点依然很关键，尤其是当土星落在某个星座的第一度，或是最后一度的时候，你就必须把这个因素纳入考量。

So yeah, the orb definitely still matters and that's still relevant especially if Saturn's at the first degree of the sign or if Saturn's at the very last degree, like of the sign, then you really still have to take that into account.

对。

Yeah.

我之前就一直很好奇，想问问你对这个问题的看法。

I had just been curious about asking you your perspective on that.

是的，这两种情况都确实存在。

Yeah, it's definitely both of those.

几年前土星刚进入摩羯座的时候，我就见到过很多这类情况，当时我注意到土星逆行回到了摩羯座的初始度数区间。

And I saw a lot of that a few years ago when Saturn first went into Capricorn because I'd noticed it retrograding back to very early in the sign.

曾经有几位出生星盘里土星落在射手座末尾度数的人，土星度数在28度和29度左右，哪怕土星逆行的时候没有重新进入射手座，你依旧能观察到相关效应。

There were a few people with Saturn in very late Sagittarius, like twenty eight and twenty nine degrees, who you could still see when it retrograded back even though it didn't return back into Sagittarius.

你能看到相关能量仍在触发：土星回归的一些叙事还没彻底收尾，要等土星在度数上移动到更远的位置，这些故事才会完全结束。

You could see it being activated in the wrapping up of some of those Saturn return stories not fully happening until Saturn had moved further away by degree.

对。

Yeah.

我本人就能证明这点。

I can personally attest to that one.

好的。

Okay.

你的土星落在多少度？

What degree is your Saturn at?

在射手座21度。

It's at 21 Sagittarius.

好的。

Okay.

我当时就自己留意着星象到达20度或是超过这个位置的情况，还一直追踪着超出10度、15度、20度的变化，一直要等到跨过20度这个节点，我才会真正觉得：好了，这件事彻底结束了。

And I was for myself just looking with a 20 degree or past that and kind of just tracking like 10 degrees out, fifteen, twenty, and it really didn't feel like until it was past that 20 degree point, was like, Okay, this is done now.

没错。

Sure.

对。

Yeah.

是的，我觉得把这两种情况都纳入考量绝对非常重要。

Yeah, I think it's definitely important to take both of those into account.

拥有额外的工具来确定一些关键日期确实很有用，这些日期可以像阶梯一样相互叠加，而不是彼此否定。

It's just useful to have additional tools for knowing certain dates to look for that might be like stepping stones that can build on each other rather than necessarily one negating the other.

是的，完全正确。

Yeah, absolutely.

谢谢。

Thank you.

对。

Yeah.

好的。

All right.

那么，让我们来看看在当前这个新周期中，接下来会出现哪些日期。

So let's take a look at what our next dates are coming up in terms of the current cycle that we're starting.

尽管精确的合相已经发生，但接下来一段时间内，土星至少会在今年晚些时候逆行回到摩羯座，并一直逆行到摩羯座的初始位置，然后才会再次顺行。

And even though the exact conjunction has already taken place, it's gonna be a while before because Saturn, at the very least, let's just say the sign based conjunction, Saturn is going to retrograde back into Capricorn later this year and retrograde all the way back to what it looks like of Capricorn before it stations direct.

到那时，也就是今年秋天或十月左右，冥王星将位于摩羯座22度。

And Pluto will be at 22 Capricorn at that point around the fall or around October of this year.

是的，它们又会再次非常接近。

Yeah, they get very close again.

是的，这会让一些人感到有点紧张。

Yeah, which makes some people a little nervous.

但到了十二月，当然，正如所有占星师一直在谈论的那样，土星最终会永久离开摩羯座，进入水瓶座，而土木合相也会紧随其后发生。

But then eventually by December, of course, as all the astrologers have been talking about, Saturn finally departs from Capricorn and moves into Aquarius for good where the Saturn Jupiter conjunction happens shortly after that.

所以至少从这一点开始，从十二月起，让它们处于不同星座就是合相分离的第一步。

So at least that's like one step in terms of the separation of the conjunction is just having them in different signs at least from that point forward, from December forward.

但那时它们相距有多远呢？

But at that point, they're only, what, apart.

所以从度数上来说，它们仍然相当接近吧？

So in terms of degree, they're still pretty close together?

是的， definitely。

Yeah, definitely.

好的。

Okay.

那么，它们什么时候会分开呢？我想这是下一个问题。

So when do they get apart, I guess would be the next question?

看起来在那之后的几个月内就会分开。

It looks like maybe within a few months of that.

我认为实际上到2021年12月，它们才会完全分开。

I think it's actually by December 2021 that they leave that full apart.

好的。

Okay.

那么我们来看，到2021年12月，土星位于水瓶座，冥王星位于摩羯座？

So let's see, by December 2021, Saturn is at of Aquarius and Pluto is at of Capricorn?

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

所以到那时，可以说终于达到了一个分离的里程碑，也就是相隔一度。

So by that point, let's say finally, let's say one stepping stone is in of separation or one degree of separation.

第一步分离发生在2020年12月，那时他们离开了同一个星座。

One step of separation is December 2020 when they move out of the same sign.

而到了2021年12月，也就是一年后，他们最终彻底分开了。

And then finally by December 2021, a year later, they're also separate by at least permanently.

嗯。

Mhmm.

好的。

Okay.

那么这就是起点了。

So that's the starting point then.

到了那时，无论未来将发生什么样的地缘政治或全球性事件，其种子都应已牢固扎根、稳步发展，并随着土星在其与冥王星周期中的渐盈阶段逐渐远离冥王星而不断成长。

And the seeds of whatever geopolitical and larger world event changes are gonna happen should be firmly planted and firmly in place and moving forward and sort of growing at that point once we're firmly in the waxing phase of Saturn in its cycle with Pluto and moving away from it.

所以下一个转折点，我想应该是土星与冥王星形成初象限相位，也就是几年后土星刑克冥王星的时候。

So the next turning point then I guess would be the opening or the waxing square when Saturn squares Pluto eventually several years later.

是的。

Yeah.

那我想我们要往前看十年左右的时间了。

So I guess we'll look about a decade ahead.

对。

Yeah.

因为冥王星最终会进入水瓶座，那本身就是一件很值得探究的大事。

Because eventually, Pluto goes into Aquarius, which is a whole thing unto itself.

不过看起来当土星最终追上冥王星的时候，情况就会是那样：土星会在2020年代末进入金牛座初期。

But it looks like that's where it will be when Saturn eventually catches up to it is Saturn will move into early Taurus in the late 2020s.

而且看起来那就是土星和冥王星形成四分相位的时间点。

And it looks like that's when Saturn will square Pluto.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对。

Yeah.

另外我在研究这个四分相位的时候会用比合相更小的容许度，10度？那大概是多久？

And I would use looking at the square with maybe a smaller orb than the conjunction, 10 That's what?

10？

10?

好的。

Okay.

是的，它将在2028年4月进入金牛座。

Yeah, it moves into Taurus by April 2028.

所以，在2020年代后期，这两颗行星不仅处于10度的范围内，还形成了星座层面的刑相位。

So there, we're getting both within a 10 degree orb as well as a sign based square between those two in the late 2020s.

而且看起来在第一次经过时就会完全精确对齐。

And it looks like that goes exact in that first pass.

因此，土星从金牛座八度刑克天秤座八度，大约发生在2028年6月。

So Saturn squaring Pluto from eight degrees of Taurus to eight degrees of Aquarius around June 2028.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以这是开启或上升的刑相位。

So that's the opening or the waxing square.

那之后我们最终会讲到冲相吗？因为我们知道这个刑相至少会持续一到两年的时间。

Then I guess we would eventually go on to the opposition because we know that that's gonna last for like a year or two at least, the square.

哦对，我记得这个刑相大概会持续两年。

Oh, yeah, the square about two years, I think.

好的。

Okay.

那关于这个冲相，还有这个上弦刑相，除了那句听起来笼统但实际会异常精准的总结之外，我们还有什么能总结的吗？那句话就是：在星象合相前后几年里启动的所有事，都会在这个为期两年左右的刑相阶段完全显现，来到一个关键的转折点。

So the opposition, so the waxing square, is there a statement that we could make about that aside from I guess the most general statement that will still end up being surprisingly specific is that something that started in the few year timeframe around the conjunction will fully manifest and reach a critical turning point around the time of the square during that two year or so timeframe.

对。

Yeah.

有一件事我一直在琢磨、一直在思考——从某种程度上来说，这也符合我本身的兴趣方向——那就是在土星冥王星的这些不同阶段，会浮现出什么样的生态议题？

One thing that I keep thinking about or wondering aboutand in part, this is just the interests that really draw me as wellbut what are the ecological themes going to be under these different Saturn Pluto stages?

而且结合目前围绕气候变化给出的各种预测，以及我们到底还有多少时间来彻底改变能源利用、经济运行等方方面面的模式，我确实认为这会是下一个关键节点。

And just based on the projections that are being given around climate change and how much time we have to really change how we use energy and economy and so on, I do think that this will probably be a next critical point.

所以这类情况很有可能就会出现在这个阶段里。

And so that could be something that's in there.