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嘿，我叫克里斯·布伦南，你正在收听占星播客。
Hey, my name is Chris Brennan and you're listening to The Astrology Podcast.
在这一集中，我和马科斯·帕切特讨论了医疗占星咨询图表，以及在占星背景下的预后与预测。
In this episode, I'm talking with Marcos Patchett about medical astrology consultation charts and prognosis and prediction in the context of astrology.
所以，嘿，欢迎来到节目。
So hey, welcome to the show.
谢谢，克里斯。
Thanks, Chris.
你好。
Hi.
是的，谢谢你今天加入我。
Yeah, thanks for joining me today.
所以我对这一集感到非常兴奋。
So I'm excited about this episode.
这将是一次很好的讨论。
This is going be a good discussion.
那么我们先来谈谈，向我的听众介绍一下你。
So let's talk first and introduce you to my audience.
你有西方草药医学和医学占星术的背景，尤其专精于卜卦占星术，对吧？
So you have a background and specialize in western herbal medicine and medical astrology with a focus on horary astrology in particular, right?
是的，没错。
Yeah, exactly.
对。
So yes.
是的。
Yes.
你部分师从奥利维亚·巴克莱的卜卦占星师认证课程体系，对吧？
And you come partially from the lineage of the Olivia Barclay School of the qualifying horary practitioner course, right?
是的。
Yes.
不过我也有一部分是自学的。
Although I'm partly self taught.
我最初从伦敦占星学院（LSA）开始学习现代占星术，他们非常出色，我就是从那里开始的。
I started off the modern astrology with the LSA, London School of Astrology who are great and I began with them.
然后大约在二月左右，我开始对传统占星术产生兴趣。
And then I sort of got interested in traditional astrology around February.
我最初是通过阅读约翰·弗劳利的书籍深入了解命盘占星术的，约翰·弗劳利是个颇具争议但非常杰出的占星师。
I really got into horary first really through reading John Frawley's books, which they're a very controversial figure, John Frawley, a brilliant astrologer.
于是，我主要靠自学进入了传统占星术领域。
And so went in traditional astrology really just sort of self taught for a while.
这背后有多种原因，比如课程时间不合适，因为我当时在上班，无法参加。
And that was just a number of different factors like the class times weren't really I couldn't really do the classes because I was working and whatever.
但确实，我主要是半科班半自学的——现代占星术是正规学校学的，而传统占星术则基本是自学的。
But yeah, so I'm mostly sort of like partly So officially school taught with my beginning in modern astrology and then the traditional astrology sort of self taught really.
很棒。
Cool.
你是否也能将这些与你对草药学的兴趣和专注结合起来？
And that you were able to combine that in some ways also with your interest and focus on herbalism?
是的，没错。
Yes, exactly.
这实际上是我学习占星术的主要动力，
That was the major incentive for me actually learning astrology in
因为当时我正在米德尔塞克斯大学攻读西方草药医学学位。
the first place because I was doing a degree in western herbal medicine at Middlesex University.
大约在2004年，我偶然发现了一本由格雷厄姆·托宾写的书，他是一位杰出的占星师，同时也是一位出色的草药师，这本书叫《清凉辣椒疗法》，我推荐给每个人。
And in sort of 2004, I came across a book by Graham Tobin who is a brilliant astrologer and also a brilliant herbalist called Cool Peppers Medicine that I would recommend to everybody.
这是一本非常棒的书，它讲述了十六世纪那位特立独行的药剂师、同时也是占星师的尼古拉斯·库尔佩珀的人生经历。
It's a brilliant book and it just sort of gives the life history of Nicholas Culpepper, the sort of maverick apothecary of the sixteenth century who's also an astrologer.
读完这本书后，我恍然大悟：占星术在西方医学史，尤其是草药医学等传统医学形式中，是多么关键。
And sort of reading that book just opened my eyes to how pivotal astrology is in the history of medicine in the West, particularly of course traditional forms of medicine like herbal medicine.
因此，这真正激发了我最初学习占星术的兴趣。
So that really inspired me to learn astrology in the first place.
好的，太棒了。
Okay, brilliant.
从那时起，你就一直在工作中使用并融入了它。
And so since that time, you've been using it in your work and incorporating it.
今天我们即将讨论并重点介绍的一种用途是咨询星盘，这在某种程度上属于起始占星术或问卜占星术的一个子类，具体取决于你的视角——你会在客户前来咨询或就某个具体问题向你提问的那一刻绘制一张星盘，这张星盘不仅能描述他们当时提问的性质和焦点，还可能预示结果，对吧？
And one of the uses that we're going to talk about today and focus on is consultation charts, which is sort of like a subset of either inceptional astrology or horary astrology depending on how you look at it where you cast a chart for the moment that a client comes to you for a consultation or to ask you a question about some specific thing and the chart will describe not just the nature and focus of their inquiry at that time, but also potentially the outcome, right?
是的，完全正确。
Yes, exactly.
我想你之前在和李·莱蒙医生做的播客中也提到过这一点。
And I think you discussed this in a podcast you did with Doctor.
在传统医学占星术中，存在一种星盘的层级体系：首先是本命盘，代表整个人生；然后是卧病盘，记录一个人初次发病的时刻；再就是咨询星盘。
Lee Lemmon a while ago, the sort of hierarchy of charts in traditional medical astrology where you'd have the birth chart which is for a whole lifetime and then you'd have a decumbiture chart which is the chart for the time a person first gets sick and then you'd have a consultation chart.
实际上，卧病盘和咨询星盘可以互换使用，因为它们都描述了一个人与疾病关系中某个关键瞬间的时刻，这样说你能理解吗？
Really a decumbiture and a consultation chart can be used interchangeably because they're both charts that describe a moment in time that's sort of a pivotal moment in sort of the story of a person's relationship with a disease, if that makes any sense.
所以，如果你能获得卧病盘——也就是一个人初次发病的确切时间——那当然再好不过。
So the issue with decumbiture charts, if you can get the decumbiture chart, time a person first falls sick, then that's great.
但在大多数情况下，这个时间并不可得，因为人们通常不会在突然病倒时恰好看一眼时钟。
But in most cases, it's not available because people don't happen to sort of fall over and look at the clock most of the time.
我的意思是，你可以使用替代性的星盘。
I mean, there are substitute charts you can use.
例如，如果某人在看医生时得到了一个重要的诊断，你就可以使用那次就诊的时间。
So for example, if somebody gets given a significant diagnosis during a doctor's appointment, you might have the time of that appointment.
或者如果某人被送进医院，那么入院的时间就可以作为病榻盘。
Or if somebody gets admitted to hospital, then the time of admission to hospital can serve as a decumbiture.
但作为从业者，你始终拥有的是咨询星盘。
But the chart that you as a practitioner always have is the consultation chart.
因此，这里有一个明显的实际优势。
And so there's a distinct practical advantage there.
另一个实际优势是，你可以始终用这个星盘来进行你作为从业者的自我研究和开发，因为我主要是一名草药师。
The other practical advantage being that you can always look at that chart for your own R and D as a practitioner because I'm primarily a herbalist.
有些客户来找我，因为他们知道我懂占星，所以希望我专门分析他们的占星情况，这种情况下我可以用他们的出生盘和其他星盘。
Some of my clients come to me and because they know I do astrology, they want me to look into the astrology specifically in which case I can use their birth chart and any other charts.
但很多时候，他们只是想要草药治疗。
But a lot of the time they just want the herbal medicine.
但我经常会看咨询图，以获得一些背景信息，看看它是如何发展的。
But I'll often look at the consultation chart just to get a bit of context and see how that unfolds.
而且很明显，这张图你不需要额外获取，也没有隐私问题，不需要向对方索要这些细节。
And obviously that's a chart that you don't need to There's no privacy issue there, you don't need to ask for those details.
对。
Right.
这很有道理。
That makes sense.
这在谈到卜卦的起源时也很有趣，让我想到在多罗修斯的一些最早记载中，他们总是试图使用最具象征意义或重要性的时刻。
And that's interesting in terms of also like the It makes me think of the origins of horary and one of the things that became clear about it in some of the earliest references to it in Dorotheus that they were always dealing with trying to use the greatest moment of symbolic significance or importance.
但如果你没有理想的那个重要时刻，也有一系列次级的图表，虽然与主要时刻相距较远，但可以作为备用方案。
But that sometimes if you don't have your ideal moment of importance that you can use, there's a series of lesser charts that are somewhat more far removed from the primary one as sort of a backup.
所以在多罗修斯和赫菲斯托斯的著作中，我认为他们提到，如果客户来找你时事情已经发生，理想情况下应该以事件发生的那一刻来排盘，这就是那个时刻的起始图，你就用它。
So in Dorotheus and Hephaestus, I think they said, if a client comes to you when something has happened, ideally use the cast the chart for the moment that the event occurred and that'll be the inception chart for that moment and you'll use that.
然后他们说，如果你没有那个时刻的时间，就用客户第一次得知这件事、第一次了解到事件发生的时间。
And then they say, if you don't have that and you don't have the time for that moment, then use the time for when the client first found out about it, when they first learned of the event that it had happened.
但如果这一点不存在，那就使用客户前来提问时的星盘。
But if that isn't present, then use the chart for when the client comes to you asking the question.
所以我想我们在处理医疗事件时，也是以类似的方式建立这种层级关系。
So I guess we're kind of dealing with a similar hierarchy here in terms of how you're approaching this as well with medical events.
是的，完全正确。
Yeah, a 100%.
我觉得占星术有趣的地方在于，尽管占星术可以被划分为医学、择时等各种专门领域，但其核心原则是始终如一的。
And I think what's interesting to me about astrology in general is that these things, although astrology can be compartmentalized into all these different specialisms like medical and electional and whatever, the principles, the guiding principles are the same throughout.
因此，作为一名草药师，我会把这想象成一棵植物。
So I kind of as a herbalist, I visualize it as a plant in a way.
我们实际上把最初的星盘称为‘根本星盘’。
So literally we call the original chart the radical chart.
这个词通常用于指出生星盘，但根本星盘也可以指卧床星盘，或一系列星盘中的第一个。
And that's often used to refer to birth charts, but a radical chart could be like a decumbiture, the first chart in a sequence.
而后续的星盘则像是茎上的节点一样。
And then following charts are almost like nodes on a stem or something.
这就像是根是命盘一样。
It's like the root is the radix.
随着它的生长，你会遇到其他一些关键节点，这些是事件中的重要时刻，你可以对它们进行切片分析。
And then as it's growing, you've got these other points, significant junctures in events which you can do a little cross section of and analyse.
所以所有这些图表都是如此。
So that's what all those charts are.
它们是同一过程或序列在不同时间点的切片。
They're cross sections of the same process or sequence at different times.
这就是我的理解方式。
That's how I think of it.
是的，我喜欢这个说法。
Yeah, I love that.
这真的很聪明。
That's really smart.
所以这个图表，也就是说，卧床图是指一个人最初生病或被说成卧床不起的时候。
And so the chart, I mean, decumbiture is when the person first gets sick or is said to take to their bed ill.
我想跟你聊聊关于
I want to ask you a little bit about
这一点，
that and
因为一直以来我对该关注什么都有些困惑。
what because there's always been some ambiguity for me about what to focus on with that.
但我喜欢你这样诠释，因为当客户来找你这位占星师时，就是那些重要时刻之一——他们来找你寻求建议和指导，这一刻对他们来说是一个重要的象征性转折点。
But I like how you're framing that because then the client coming to you as the astrologer is one of those important junctures when they've come to you to seek counsel and advice basically at that point that is an important symbolic moment of juncture for them.
没错。
Exactly.
我认为你完全可以取时间线上的任何重要时刻，并据此制作一张星盘，就像两个人的关系中，你可以取他们初次接触的星盘、第一次约会的星盘、婚礼的星盘、孩子出生的星盘。如果能追溯到你提到的多罗修斯和赫菲斯提奥这些原始资料，显然，最初的星盘会揭示整个故事的全貌，从那里展开。但这些在不同转折点上的星盘，每一个都能提供当时状况的快照。
And I think you can really take any significant moment in a timeline and make a chart from it in the same way that, say, in a relationship between two people, you could take the chart of the first contact between those people, the chart of their first date, the chart of their wedding, the chart of the birth of a child, these are all ideally if you can get the first meeting chart going back to what you were saying about Dorotheus and Hephaestio and those original sources, obviously that's going to give you the whole thing will telescope out from there so that radical chart will tell you the story of the whole thing.
但在这些不同节点上的星盘，都能让你看到那一刻以及之后正在发生的事情。
But any of those charts at those different junctures will give you a snapshot of what's going on at that point and from that point also.
行星的位置会不同，符号虽然大致相同，但依然能讲述出整个故事。
Planets will be in different positions, the symbols will be slightly the same, but it will tell you the story nevertheless.
这就是
That's what
我就是这样认为的。
I find anyway.
这很有道理。
That makes sense.
所以，时间上更早的事件被赋予了优先性，它们对之后发生的一切具有某种主导作用——我正试着找一个更贴切的词来形容，但即便如此，这并不意味着后续的重要时刻不能以某种方式成为其后所有事件的独立‘根图’。
So there is a primacy that's given to things that are chronologically earlier first and they have sort of primacy, I'm trying to think of a better word for that, for anything that follows after, but that doesn't necessarily mean that subsequent moments of importance cannot act as their own sort of root charts in some way for everything that follows subsequent to them.
这真是一个非常优美而简洁的表达。
That's a really lovely succinct way of putting it.
是的，我同意。
Yes, I think so.
而且我认为每个星图都有其独特要表达的内容，因为它们也会反映那个时刻的背景。
And I think each chart will have its own things to say because they'll talk about the context of that moment as well.
是的，没错。
Yeah, yes.
是的。
Yeah.
酷。
Cool.
好的，我喜欢这个。
All right, I love this.
我们正在讨论的是枢纽和时间中的关键时刻，这些重要的枢纽以及那个时刻的星盘，不仅能反映那个时刻本身，还能揭示一些过去的情况以及导致它的因素，同时也能揭示大量关于未来和其后发生的事情。
We're talking about nexuses and moments in time and those important nexuses and the chart for that moment being able to speak to that moment as well as potentially to a little bit about the past and what led to it and a lot about the future and what comes subsequent to that.
这引出了我们的讨论，传统上，占星术在中世纪和文艺复兴时期常被用作医学诊断工具。
So that then leads into our discussion which is traditionally one of the ways that astrology was used especially in the Medieval period and the Renaissance was it was integrated as a diagnostic tool sometimes in medicine.
在许多医生那里，占星术有时被用作诊断工具，以判断病人的状况，因为当时他们还没有X光或其他诊断手段。
In many medical doctors, astrology was sometimes used in medicine as diagnostic tool to figure out what was going on with the patient especially because they didn't have things like X rays or other diagnostic tools back at that time.
是的。
Yeah.
你这么说真有趣，我经常把医学占星术看作是中世纪的X光。
It's funny you use that because I do often think of medical astrology as the sort of medieval X-ray.
我认为，事实上，医生。
I think in fact Doctor.
莱曼可能说过这句话。
Lehman may have said that.
我喜欢这个比喻——中世纪的X光。
I love that analogy, the medieval X-ray.
但我的意思是，它不止如此，对吧？
But I mean, it's a bit more than that, isn't it?
因为我觉得占星术在提供背景方面非常出色。
Because I think astrology is fantastic for giving context.
现代医学专注于细节，而占星术则提供更宏观的背景，尽管可能缺乏一些细节。
Modern medicine zooms in on the details and astrology sort of gives a broader context but with less granularity perhaps.
我不知道，这只是我看待它的方式。
I don't know, this is just the way I think of it.
如果水星是占星术的行星，是人类思维的行星，连接的行星，‘如上如此下’的行星，那么我认为现代医学，即生物医学，就像水星在处女座——它的擢升、守护和本宫，因为水星在处女座特别强大，因为处女座象征着对细微事物的分析，你知道，它的冷燥特质，那种冷峻、坚持和分解事物的干燥感。
If Mercury is the planet of astrology and the planet of the human mind, connector planet, the as above so below planet, I think of modern medicine, biomedicine as being like Mercury in Virgo and its exaltation and rulership domicile because it's really strong in Virgo because Virgo is the sign of the analysis of small things, you know, the cold dry nature of it, the sort of coldness, the sort of sticking with it and the dryness of pulling things apart.
这是一种终极的分析性、解剖式的思维。
It's the ultimate sort of analytical dissecting mind.
而占星术则像是水星在射手座。
And then astrology is like Mercury in Sagittarius.
从某种意义上说，它处于弱势状态，因为你无法总是确定自己获得的预测或信息是正确的，这就像试图用显微镜观察一片广袤的苔原。
It's sort of in its detriment in the sense that you can't be sure always that the prediction or information you've got is right because it's kind of like trying to look at a tundra, a vast landscape through a microscope.
人类的思维确实难以涵盖星盘中所有可能的解读，但它依然具有实用性，因为我并不认同那些认为行星处于弱势时就毫无用处的观点。
The human mind can't really encompass all of the possibilities that one can see in a chart, but it's still nevertheless got utility because I'm not among those who believe the planets in detriment are useless.
我只是认为它们更难运用。
I just believe they're harder to work with.
是的，
Yeah,
它提供了一个更宏观的视角，因为它还整合了像时间这样的因素——这些可能在X光片中不存在，但占星图不仅可能描述某种状况（我们稍后会谈到），也可能告诉你关于命主当时正在发生或即将发生的事情的序列。
it's giving a much bigger picture view because it's also incorporating things like timing that may not be in an X-ray, let's say, but the astrology chart while also maybe describing something about the situation as we'll get into later may also be telling you some things about the sequence of what's happening to the native or what will happen to them at that time.
它具有时间维度，这也是占星术作为占卜形式的独特之处之一。如果它确实是一种占卜形式，我最近一直在深入思考这个问题：不知为何，我突然对塔罗牌产生了兴趣，开始思考它自身的运作机制，以及占星术如何在像卜卦这类应用中与塔罗牌相似，但又截然不同，因为占星术拥有一个客观存在于外部的时间维度，有时会以非常奇特的方式揭示事件的先后顺序。
It has a temporal component, which is one of the things that makes astrology really unique even as a form of divination, which if it is a form of divination, is something I've been thinking about a lot lately is I've been suddenly for some reason becoming more interested in tarot and how that works in its own terms, understanding the ways in which astrology may be similar to tarot especially in applications like horary, but also is very different because it has that temporal component that is objectively occurring out there and showing the sequence of events sometimes in a very weird way.
是的。
Yeah.
不，这很有趣。
No, that's interesting.
这可能会成为一个庞大的旁支话题，克里斯，因为我经常思考这种占卜性的东西——什么是占卜。
This could be a whole massive tangent, Chris, because I think about this sort of divinatory, like what is divination a lot.
事实上，我在我的巧克力书籍里悄悄加入了一点相关内容。
In fact, I snuck a little bit of that into my book on chocolate.
书里有一小章专门讨论占卜，因为这并不是一个完整成熟的占卜统一理论，而只是一些我零散的想法。
Like there's a little chapter in there where I talk about divination because this is not a fully formed grand unified theory of divination, but it's just some thoughts I have met.
如果你观察所有不同的占卜方法——无论是塔罗牌、易经、占星术或其他方式，其中占星术我认为可以说是最高级、最复杂和最精密的方法——它们都涉及将自然界中混沌的、随机的信息抽象为更有组织的系统。
If you look at all the different methods of divination, be they sort of tarot or I Ching or astrology or whatever, astrology being I would agree the sort of apogee, the sort of most elaborated and sophisticated method arguably, they all combine this abstracting of chaotic in the chaos theory kind of random sense information from nature into a more organized system.
所以，你必须先有一个混沌的元素，而组织系统则是人类的思维。
So it's kind of like you've got to have some sort of chaotic element and then the organizing system is the human mind.
这是一种循环逻辑。
This is circular logic.
但正如我所说，如果水星象征着人类的思维，而‘如其在上，如其在下’，那么占卜的实际机制就是这种你所构建的心灵机器、这种思维结构，以及其中的要素。
But like I said, if Mercury is the symbol of the human mind and the as above so below, it's kind of like the actual mechanism of divination is this mind machine, this mental structure that you create and the ingredient.
它必须包含某种来自自然的混沌元素，然后被抽象并纳入一个系统之中。
It has to include some sort of chaotic element from nature that is then abstracted and put into a system.
这是其中的一个要素。
That's one element of it.
所以，是的。
So so yeah.
那么，占卜中随机性的成分是什么？就是它选取了一种看似随机、无序或混沌的自然现象，比如洗牌或掷硬币，这些都属于随机的偶然结果。
The fortune So what component of chance is that it's taking a natural phenomenon that looks chance like or or random or chaotic and is like the shuffling of the cards or the throwing of the coins which is a random chance like outcome.
但这一前提的另一部分是，那一刻的结果——牌被抽出、硬币落地的方式——实际上与我们预期的随机性相反，这个结果是具有目的性和意义的。
But then from that part of the premise is that the outcome and what happens at that moment, way the cards are pulled or the coins fall is actually contrary to what we would expect in it being chance like, the outcome is actually purposeful and meaningful.
是的。
Yes.
我某种程度上在说，但我也想指出，以占星术为例，我们知道黄道十二宫实际上并不存在，比如这些星座在字面意义上并不存在。
I'm sort of saying that, but I'm also saying that the So with astrology, for example, we know that the zodiac isn't actually made of, for example, that the signs are really, they don't exist in a literal sense.
你明白我的意思吗？
Do you know what I mean?
意思是天空并没有被点亮。
In the sense that the sky isn't lit.
所以如果你说的是恒星黄道，天空并不是被精确地划分为每个30度的星座。
So if you're talking about the sidereal zodiac, the sky isn't divided into constellations of exactly 30 degrees each.
如果你说的是回归黄道，那你已经把天空划分为这12个部分。
You're talking about the tropical zodiac, you've sliced up the sky into those 12 segments.
所以我想说的是，你把那些自然信息进行了编码和系统化。
So what I'm saying is you've taken that natural information and then you've codified it.
因此，占卜发生的真正视角，就像是你脑海中构建的一台思维机器。
So the actual lens through which divination occurs is sort of like a mind machine that you've made in your mind.
这样说得通吗？
Does that make sense?
有可能。
Potentially.
我的意思是，至少对于回归黄道来说，事情变得复杂了，因为我不想涉及星宿黄道，那超出了我的范围；但就回归黄道而言，你确实有冬至、夏至和春分、秋分这些客观的天文现象，然后将其平均划分为十二个部分。
I mean, it gets tricky at least with the tropical zodiac because I don't want to touch on the sidereal since that's outside But of my own at least with the tropical zodiac, you have some objective astronomical phenomenon of the solstices and the equinoxes and then it's being divided equally into 12 segments.
这是一种
It's something
但我觉得两者你都做了。
Well, I'd say you do with both.
你在星宿黄道上也是这样做的。
You do with the sidereal zodiac.
我的意思是，它大致被固定在星座上，虽然尺寸不完全吻合，但依然依附于它们。
Mean, it's roughly positioned pinned onto the constellations, dimensions, it's still pinned onto them.
但就连宫位本身也存在一种抽象——天哪，这纯粹就是把天空切成十二等份，不管用什么方法。
But there's still an abstraction in the houses, for goodness sake, that's literally just slicing the sky into 12 segments, I mean, whatever method you use.
我的意思是，你可以为这种划分找到形而上的理由。
I mean, you can come up with a metaphysical rationale for that.
但归根结底，你只是在对它强加一种结构。
But at the end of the day, what you're doing is imposing a structure on that.
现在你可以论证说，这种结构是神圣命定的，或者以某种方式被传达的。
Now you can make the argument that structure is divinely ordained or that it's being channeled in some way.
但我会说，所有形式的占卜都具有这种看似随机的混沌信息——这里的‘随机’加了引号——然后被系统化了。
But I would say that all forms of divination have that sort of random chaotic information, so random in quotes, that is then codified.
我认为关键在于这种系统化的结构。
And I think it's the codifying structure.
它就像一个心智的安提凯希拉装置，是你构建的一台思维机器。
It's like a mental antikythera, it's a mind machine that you make.
我经常提出的一个重要观点是，作为占星师，不要过度混用不同的方法。
And one of the big arguments that I have often is that one of my bugbears as an astrologer is don't mix the methods too much.
如果你使用恒星制占星，就用那套工具箱。
Like if you're using sidereal astrology, use that toolbox.
如果你使用西方占星，就用那套工具箱。
If you're using western astrology, you'll use that toolbox.
这并不是说你不能从不同的工具箱中挑选工具，但在我眼中，你使用的是这些经过数千年精心构建的思维机器，而它们正是占卜得以运作的棱镜。
It's not to say that you can't necessarily pick tools from different boxes, but in my mind you're using these different laboriously constructed mind machines that have been created over thousands of years and those are the prism through which that divination works.
很难准确表达这些东西。
It's really hard to articulate this stuff.
我在书里写了一整章，花了很长时间才把想法写下来，因为这有点像试图把水钉在墙上。
I wrote a whole chapter on it in my book and I spent ages trying to get the thoughts down because it's sort of like trying to nail down water a little bit.
从我的认知能力来看，这一切都稍微超出了我的能力范围。
It's slightly above my pay grade in terms of my cognitive capacity, all of this stuff.
当然。
Sure.
但确实，
But yeah,
不过我明白你的意思，你是说你建立了一个系统，一旦这个系统确立了，那么在该系统设定的框架或边界内，占卜就可以发生，答案也会通过这个系统自身的内部结构和逻辑自然浮现。
I understand what you're saying though in terms of you create a system and then once that system itself has been established, then within the context or the boundaries set by that system once established, the divination can take place and the answer can arise through that just within the context of the internal structure and logic of whatever system's been created.
是的。
Yes.
而且似乎还需要一种结合，即轻微的混沌性，这包括占卜者根据不同的方法获得的直觉体验。
And there also seems to be some that there has to be that combo of the slightly chaotic and that includes things like diviners getting physic- depending on methodology.
总是想想中美洲的占卜历法系统，这些系统至今仍在某些地方使用
Always think of the Mesoamerican calendrical systems of divination, which are still sort of in use in sort
的
of
如今在中美洲的某些玛雅地区，他们拥有一个高度规范的260天仪式历法，并且通过数豆子或种子来代表历法上的日子，形成了一种占卜体系；占卜者会凭直觉、一种感觉来挑选，他们称之为‘血液中的闪电’，会有一种感觉，觉得‘对，就是这个答案’。
various Maya regions in Central America now where they've kind of got this really codified two sixty day ritual calendar, and they've got these sort of divinatory systems of sort of counting beans or seeds out to represent days on that calendar, and then the diviner selects those with a sort of intuitive, with a feeling, like they call it the lightning in the blood, they'll get a feeling that's like, Oh, that's the right answer.
就像塔罗牌占卜者抽牌时那样，觉得‘就是这张牌’。
The same as a tarot reader does when they pick a card, Oh, that's the card.
不管怎样，我认为占星术在某种程度上也有这种特性，但相比其他方式要弱得多，这恰恰让它非常有趣。
Anyway, I guess astrology has that to some extent but far less than the others, arguably, which is what makes it very interesting.
总之，是的。
Anyway Yeah.
回到你关于占星术与水星相关联的观点，这正是一个问题所在：它在几乎所有议题上都总是脚踩两只船。
Well, maybe going back to your point about astrology being associated with Mercury, that's one of the problems is that it always has one foot on each side on either side of almost every issue.
我一直认为，这可能是占星术与众不同之处之一，因为它确实具有占卜成分，但也可能同时包含某种自然主义或准客观的成分。
I've always thought about that as that might be one of the issues that sets astrology apart because it does have that divinatory component, but it may have some other naturalistic or quasi objective component as well.
但无论如何，这本身就是一个独立的话题。
But anyway, that's a whole topic in and of itself.
让我们回到我们的主要焦点，即咨询图和医疗占星术。
Let's get back to our main focus which is consultation charts and medical astrology.
所以你提到的一个观点是，咨询图是最容易获取的之一，因为如果有人来找你，却不知道自己的出生时间，甚至不知道自己的生日或出生年份，你总可以为客户来访的那一刻绘制一张咨询图，这张图会反映当时的情况、客户关注的重点，有时甚至能揭示这一状况的结果。
So one of the points that you made is that consultation charts then are one of the most accessible because if somebody comes to you and they don't know their birth time or let's say they don't even know their birthday or birth year, you can always cast a consultation chart for the moment that a client comes to you and that's going to speak to and say something about that moment, what the client is focused on, and in some instances what the outcome of that situation will be.
是的，完全正确。
Yeah, exactly.
所以以上所有内容。
So all of the above.
我的意思是，克里斯，你已经很好地总结了。
I mean, I think you've summed it up there, Chris.
我的意思是，基本上就是这样。
I mean, that's basically it.
我的意思是，我喜欢咨询图，正如我所说，因为它们总是可以获取，并且其解读方式基本上与卜卦图相同，其中上升宫的守护星代表问卜者或病人。
I mean, I like them, as I say, just because they're always accessible and they're interpreted in basically the same way as you would interpret a horary chart where the Ascendant ruler represents the querent or the sick person.
但这里有一点我不确定你是否想现在深入探讨，因为不同的传统文献对这一点有不同的规则。
But there is a little I don't know if you want me to get into that now, but there is controversy there because different traditional sources have different rules for that.
我现在要继续讲这个吗？
Shall I go ahead with that now?
我还有一个问题想澄清一下关于卧床占星的问题，如果你愿意的话，我们可以先讨论这个，或者稍后再回来谈，传统文献中提到的‘卧床’时刻到底是指什么，比如他们所说的那样。
Or one question I had was to clarify the decumbiture thing if you want to first, or we can come back to that later of like what is the moment of quote unquote decumbiture of of taking, you know, the the traditional sources call like Yeah.
知道，太好了
Know, a great
问题。
question.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
明白。
Yeah.
因为每个人都想知道：那到底是什么时候？
Because everyone's like, well, when?
那是在什么时候发生的？
When does that happen?
科尔·佩珀在他的精彩医学占星著作中谈到了这一点，我推荐任何对医学占星感兴趣的人都去读一读，这本书篇幅很短，但内容极其密集，需要花一生去理解。
Cole Pepper talked about this in his amazing sort of medical astrology book, which I'd recommend anyone interested in medical astrology gets because it's a very slim book which takes a lifetime to understand because it's so information dense.
它的书名简洁明了，叫《从病者卧床时刻占卜疾病》，但内容非常出色。
It's the snappily titled Astrological Judgment of Diseases from the Decumbiture of the Sick, but it's great.
他关于卧床时刻提到的一点是——我这里转述一下，因为手头没有这本书——并不是当病人第一次感到疾病袭来，或出现轻微头痛的时候，而是当病人病到必须躺下的那一刻。
And one of the things he said about the decumbiture, and I'm paraphrasing because I don't have the book in front of me, was it's not the time when the person feels the first smash of illness or the first mild little headache, it's the time when the person first gets so sick they have to lie down.
因此，如果你有记录的话，可以取那个时间，虽然很多人没有，比如当一个人在家时第一次上床睡觉的时间；但对大多数人来说，更实用的做法是取住院时间，或叫救护车的时间之类的时刻。
So for that, you can take if you have it, and many people don't, if somebody's at home like the time when they first go to bed or whatever, but what often serves more practically for most people is the time of a hospital admission or the time when an ambulance is called or something like that.
所以你不需要纠结于：天啊，我到底是什么时候第一次真正病倒的？
So you don't need to think about being so, oh, God, when was the very first moment that I got really sick?
更重要的是，那次疾病开始时的关键转折点是什么时候。
It's more about when was a really important nodal moment in beginning of this sickness.
所以正如我所说，你也可以使用拿到检测结果的时间。
So as I said, you can use the time when you get test results as well.
比如说，你刚做了某些检查，或者就是检查本身的时间。
So say you've just had some tests done or the time of the test themselves.
如果你有重要扫描的时间，可以使用做扫描的时间，或者拿到检测结果的时间。
If you have the time of an important scan, you can use the time that you had the scan if you have that or the time that you've got the test result.
所以传统意义上的时间是指你躺下的时刻。
So the traditional meaning is when you lie down.
当你病得严重到必须躺下的时候。
When you get so ill, you have to lie down.
但实际操作中，你可以将这些重要时刻中的任何一个作为起始时间。
But practically speaking, you can use any of those significant moments as inceptional times.
好的。
Okay.
明白了。
Got it.
这可以追溯到很早以前。
And that goes back really far.
我的意思是，我记得在公元二世纪的维迪乌斯·瓦伦斯《占星学》第九卷中，有一个很短的章节，我认为是第六章，标题为‘疾病占星与起始时刻’。
I mean, I remember there's a very short chapter in it in book nine of Vedius Valens all the way back in the second century where I think it's in chapter six and it's titled Horoscopes for Illness, the Initiatives.
它开篇写道：‘当病人卧床时，预测的确定必须按照以下方式来进行。’
And it starts by saying, The determination of forecasts when a patient takes to his bed must be made in the following way.
因此，这种推算卧病星盘的方法相当古老。
So this is a pretty old sort of approach in terms of casting decumbiture charts.
这真的很有趣。
That's really interesting.
我正在慢慢通读瓦伦斯的著作。
I'm slowly plowing my way through Valens.
不得不说，我到现在还卡在第二卷。
Have to say I got stuck on book I think two so far.
反复读，再读，又读。
Like read, reread, reread.
所以是的。
So yeah.
对。
Yeah.
不过这有点棘手，因为目前网上免费流传的译本没有包含星盘图。
Well, and it's tricky because the translation that's freely out there right now, it doesn't have charts.
书里是有图表和图像的。
There's diagrams, images in it.
当他描述一个星盘时，你本该有一张空白的星盘图自己画出来，或者最好在书里直接附上图表。
When he describes a chart, you're supposed to have a blank chart and draw it up or ideally in the book have it right there.
所以我希望在不久的将来能解决这个问题，但这也是目前这个译本难以阅读的原因之一。
So that's something I hope to fix in the near future, but it's one of the things that makes it harder to read that translation of Valens right now.
好的，这就是卧病星盘。
Okay, so that's decumbiture charts.
在绘制卧病星盘时，如果回到第一宫的问题，在大多数择时占星术中，发起行动的那部分被分配到第一宫，或者在那一刻被启动或诞生的事物，就像在出生图中，第一宫主要代表出生时的个体，其他宫位则代表与你相关的人；而在卧病星盘中，第一宫是否代表那个在那一刻生病的人呢？
In a decumbiture chart, if you're casting a decumbiture chart, going back to the first house issue, in most forms of electional astrology, the one that initiates the action is assigned to the first house or whatever is initiated or born in that moment in the same way that in a birth chart, the first house represents you primarily the native that was born at that time and the other houses represent other people in your life in relation to you in a decumbiture chart, is the first house the person who falls sick at that time?
是的。
Yes.
不过，有个小注释需要注意。
Although, asterisk, there's a little caveat there.
所以，总的来说，在疾病图或咨询图中，你通常会以上升点或第一宫及其主宰星代表病人。
So yes, for the most part in a decumbiture chart or a consultation charts, let's say for the most part you interpret them the same, the Ascendant or the first house and its ruler represents the patient.
但这里有几个小引文，我写在一张小纸片上了。
But there are a couple of little quotes here, so I've got them on a little bit of paper.
其中一个来自赫尔墨斯的《百则》，这是传统占星格言的汇编。
One was, this is from the Centiloquium of Hermes, so collection of traditional astrology aphorisms.
它说：当你被问及父亲时，观察第四宫；问及兄弟时，观察第三宫；问及儿子时，观察第五宫；问及妻子时，观察第七宫；但若问及病人，则只观察上升点。
It says, when thou shalt be interrogated for a father, behold the fourth house, for a brother the third, of a son the fifth, but wife the seventh, but if for a sick person, behold the ascendant only.
这是赫尔墨斯的说法。
So that's Hermes.
这是一本非常古老的文献。
That's an old old sort of text.
不知道这是哪个世纪的，克里斯。
Don't know what what century is that, Chris.
你 probably 知道这个。
You'd probably know that one.
是赫尔墨斯的《辛普洛库姆》，不是托勒密的。
The Symplocum of Hermes not of not of Ptolemy.
我的意思是，这可能是中世纪的，比如八、九、十世纪左右。
I mean, it's probably like medieval, so eighth, ninth, tenth century, let's say.
好的。
Okay.
好的。
Okay.
那么下一个引文则在某种程度上与之形成对比，来自威廉·利利的《基督教占星术》，我想是第二卷，关于第六宫的那一章。
So then the next quote though is somewhat in sort of counterpoint to that would be from William Lilly's Christian Astrology, I think book two, that sort of horary book in the chapter on the sixth house, obviously.
当尿液被送来时，这回溯到文艺复兴时期的做法——他们会在医生收到病人尿液时绘制星盘，如果你仔细想想，这和今天你收到化验结果，或者医生打开病人档案时的情况完全一样。
When a urine is brought, so this goes back to the Renaissance thing of they cast a chart for when the physician received the patient's urine, which if you think about it is exactly like when you receive test results today, medical test results, or when the doctor opens patient's file or something.
当尿液被送来时，上升点代表当事人，无论询问者是否获得同意，因为尿液有时来自病人的身体本质。
When a urine is brought, let the ascendant represent the party whether the querent come with consent or no for the urine was sometimes of the essence of the sick.
所以你的意思是，如果你有病人的样本，那么上升点就代表病人。
So what you're saying there is if you've got something from the patient, then the Ascendant represents the patient.
病人，就是关于的那个人？
The patient, the person that it's about?
是的。
Yes.
没错。
Exactly.
因为这样是合理的。
Because it's Okay.
我来简化一下，因为这里有一个非常关键的要点。
I'll boil this down because I think there's a really key point in here.
如果尿液未被送来，或病人未同意，那么上升点代表询问者，但病人和病情必须根据询问者与病人之间的关系来确定。
If no urine or consent of the sick party come to the physician, then the ascendant represents the querent, but the person and sickness must be required according to the relation the querent has to the sick party.
一个人为他的仆人，第六宫将展现其人，而非其病。
A man for his servant the sixth shall shall shall show his person, not his disease.
这必须从第六宫到第六宫，也就是第十一宫，等等，当没有同意时。
That must be from the sixth to the sixth, which is the eleventh, etcetera, where no consent is.
他在这里的意思是，如果患者已给予同意，比如他们明确表示允许你查看他们的医疗信息，那么他们始终对应第一宫。
What he's saying there is if the patient has given consent, like you know that they've said yes to you looking at their medical details, then they are always the first house.
如果没有同意，比如有人代表朋友，或如威廉·利利的例子中代表其雇员、仆人前来，你就不能将上升宫视为病人，因为上升宫代表的是提问者本人。
If there's no consent, so if somebody has come on behalf of their friend or in William Lilly's example, like on behalf of an employee of theirs, a servant, then you can't use the Ascendant as the sick person because the Ascendant will be the person asking the question you would use.
因此，据我观察，如今在实践中最常见的例子是，父母带着孩子前来，而孩子太小，无法给予同意。
So this happens most often in practice, I find nowadays, when a parent comes with their child and the child is not able to give consent because they're too young.
儿童通常无法给予同意。
Children generally can't give consent.
因此你必须仔细分析星盘，因为如果孩子足够大，能理解情况，他们可能由第一宫代表；但通常第一宫代表带孩子来就诊的父母，而孩子则由第五宫及其宫主代表。
So you have to look at the chart carefully because if the child is old enough and knows what's going on kind of then they might be represented by the first house, but usually the first house will be the parent who's brought the kid to the consultation and the kid will be the fifth house and the ruler of the fifth.
星盘本身会明确显示这一点，因为你大致能看出谁正在经历困难。
And the chart should make that plain because you can sort of see which one is having difficulty.
所以
So
这实际上完全涉及第一宫代表发起行动者的问题，回到整个框架：要么是患者本人亲自来找你，通过提出问题来发起行动；要么在某些情况下，有人只是作为客户的代表，代为传达信息。
it really just goes down that whole issue of the first house representing the one initiating the action and going back to that whole framework and either the patient themself is coming to you and asking and initiating the action by posing the question or in some instances if there's somebody that is just acting as a representative of the client and they're passing the message along on their behalf.
但这里就变得复杂了。
Well, here's where it gets tricky though.
因为如果他们代为传达信息的那个人知道对方是代表自己前来，比如在莉莉的例子中，某人代表他的仆人或雇员前来，如果该雇员已经授权他的老板去见医生，那么他们（雇员）仍然会是第一宫，因为他们才是真正关心自己健康的人。
Because if the person they're passing the message along from knows that they're coming in their stead, So if it's some person with Lily's example coming for his servant, for an employee, if that employee has given his boss a mandate to go and see the physician, then they would still be the first house because they are the ones actually asking about their own health.
他们是通过代理行事，但第一宫仍属于他们。
They're doing it by proxy, but they would still get the first house.
只有当不存在——这里的关键词是‘同意’。
It's only when there is no The keyword here is consent.
当没有——这是两个因素的结合。
When there's no So it's a combination of the two factors.
你提到的这一点，克里斯，关于行动发起者加上同意。
Point that you flagged up, Chris, about the initiator of the action plus consent.
这样说得通吗？
Does that make sense?
是的。
Yeah.
我之前想说的是，有人带着授权代表老板提问，和有人自己问‘我的老板会死吗？’，这两者之间的区别。
Where I was going with that was just the difference between somebody asking on behalf of their, let's say, boss with consent versus somebody asking about their boss like, Will my boss die?
在这种情况下，提问者就是求问者，他们并不是在代表老板发起问题。
In which case, they are the querent and they're not conveying an action on behalf of the boss and initiating the question.
他们是作为自身利益相关的主观方在提问，因此成为第一宫，而他们的，比如说第十宫或其他宫位，则代表他们的老板。
They are as their own interested and subjective party asking a question and therefore become the first house and their, let's say, tenth house or what have you ends up representing their Exactly boss
或他们的权利。
or their right.
克里斯，我刚才打断你了。
I cut you off prematurely, Chris.
抱歉。
Sorry about that.
是的。
Yes.
好的。
Okay.
不过听起来我们的看法是一致的。
It sounds like we're on the same page though.
所以这实际上关乎谁在发起这个问题。
And so it really has to do with just who's initiating the question.
他们是获得了授权，还是作为那个人在这一连串事件中直接且明确的代表，还是只是从他们自己的主观立场出发，以一个利益相关方的身份提问？
Do they have consent or are they acting as a representative of the person directly and deliberately in that chain of sequence of things versus are they just acting as their own interested party from their own subjective perspective?
显然，这种情况并不经常发生。
Obviously, that doesn't happen that often.
从道德上，甚至可能从法律上，你都得对此小心一些，因为你知道，他们为什么会在未经同意的情况下，向你询问关于他们认识的人的医疗问题？
You have to be a bit careful about that ethically and perhaps even legally because, you know, why are they bringing you some medical question about someone they know without consent?
我的意思是，你得对此小心一些。
I mean, you've got to be a bit careful about that.
当然。
Sure.
对。
Yeah.
或者说在一个正常的场景下，他们问的是，比如他们的女朋友或伴侣生病了，他们不是代表对方提问，而是只是担心对方，于是问：‘他们会康复吗？’
Or let's just say a non sketchy context, they're asking about like, you know, their girlfriend or their partner boyfriend is sick and they're wondering, not asking on their behalf, but they're just worried about them and they ask like, Will they get better from this?
在这种情况下，他们是第一手信息来源，却在问关于他们第七手的信息，比如说。
And in that context, they're the first house and they're asking about their seventh house party, let's say.
是的，没错。
Yeah, exactly.
如果有人的朋友住院了之类的，这种情况确实会发生。
And that happens sometimes if you've got somebody whose friend is in hospital or whatever, that does happen.
好的。
Okay.
明白了。
All right.
所以我认为这已经很好地建立了框架。
So I think that sets up the framework pretty well.
其中一个问题是，我不知道现在是不是讨论这个的好时机，还是应该稍后再回过头来谈：关于命运与自由意志的简单讨论，在进行医疗咨询或医疗占星时，你想要解决的两个问题是：预后在多大程度上是固定的，以及在多大程度上应该与患者和客户分享。
And one of the questions, and I don't know if it's time to get into this now or if we should circle around to it later, but the whole very easy and simple discussion of fate versus free will and When you're doing a sort of medical type consultations or medical astrology, two of the questions you wanted to address is how much is a prognosis set in stone and how much to share with patients and clients.
现在是不是谈这个的好时机，还是
Is that a good time to get into that or is
是的。
that Yeah.
因为我们现在有一些星盘要展示，这些星盘实际上会从略微不同的角度来回应这些问题。
Because it's kind of like we've got a few charts to show and these will sort of come at those questions from slightly different angles really.
是的，第一个问题是：有多大程度是固定的？目前我的假设是，命运就像一张弹性的五维网。
Yeah, so the first one was sort of how much is it set in stone and that I have no My supposition at this point in time is that fate is kind of like an elasticated five dimensional web.
我们都置身于其中。
So we're all enmeshed within it.
但当你拉扯它时，它也会反过来拉扯你。
But as you pull on it, it pulls on you.
有些许变动，有些许行动的自由。
There's some movement, there's some freedom of movement.
你可以改变事情显现的方式，也可以改变时间框架，但无论如何，命运依然存在——有些时候注定艰难，那就是艰难，但或许事情显现的方式和时间框架可以被调整。
You can change the way I think things show up and you can change the timeframe, but nevertheless, there is fate going You know, some time is going to be difficult, then it's going to be difficult, but perhaps the way that it shows up and something of the time frame can be altered.
所以我认为命运具有弹性成分，这可能部分取决于我记不清的所有古希腊术语，但其中有一个叫‘agnoria’。
So I think there's an elasticated element to fate which may be partly dependent on, I can't remember all the traditional Greek terms, but there was agnoria.
‘agnoria’是表示无知的术语吗？
Was agnoria the term for ignorance?
那‘haimar mania’呢？还是我记错了？
Then was it haimar mania or am I getting that wrong?
你对这些术语很在行。
You're good on these terms.
这些术语我常常一忘就忘。
They tend to fall out of my head.
但基本上，如果你不无知——古时候对占星术的理解就是一种对抗无知的方法，你运用它。
But basically, if you're not ignorant, which is the sort of ancient sort of understanding of astrology was a way of antidoting ignorance and sort of you applied it.
我的意思是，显然斯多葛学派认为命运是固定不变的，而占星术则作为一种补救手段，帮助你——用什么词呢——调整自己去适应它，让你不至于被它震惊或完全被它左右。
I mean, obviously the Stoics would think they thought fate was very set and the astrology was there as a kind of remedy to help you, what's the word, sort of adjust yourself to it or acclimate to it so that you're not as shocked or carried away by it.
但我个人更倾向于一种更广泛的新柏拉图主义观点，即确实存在命运，但它在一定程度上是可以调整的，我们正在积极参与命运的共同创造。
But I personally think in a more, I suppose, broadly neo platonic way that, yes, there's fate, but it's somewhat adjustable and we are playing an active role in the co creation of that fate.
不过，我对这个问题的看法一直在不断演变，随着我做的星盘越来越多，接触的客户越来越广，等等。
But my thoughts on this are evolving all the time in practice, the more sort of charts I do and clients I see and so on.
然后，这方面第二个要素是——抱歉，克里斯，这里已经很晚了，我的大脑正慢慢变成一锅粥。
And then the second sort of element to that was Sorry, Chris, it's getting late here so my brain's slowly turning to soup.
第二个问题是什么来着？
What was second question?
另一个问题是关于如何向客户和患者传达信息，我有时看到占星师们在争论这一点，也存在分歧：不同从业者对在多大程度上直言不讳地告诉客户他们预测的结果，有不同的看法。
The other one was just in terms of how sharing with clients and patients how maybe one of the questions that I see astrologers sometimes debating and there being tensions over and different practitioners come to different places about how blunt to be with a client in terms of what Thank they think the outcome will
你。
you.
是的，这确实是个非常棘手的问题，因为我认为占星师会面临一种道德困境：比如你做了一个星盘，发现有些星盘所显示的情况极其艰难，至少可以说如此，而客户请你分析一个非常困难处境的星象，有时结果并不乐观。
Yeah, this is a really tricky one because there's a sort of moral dilemma for the astrologer, I think, in the sense that say you do a chart and you'll see there are some of these charts coming up which were very tricky situations to say the least, and a client has asked you to sort of look at the astrology of a really difficult situation and maybe sometimes it's not great.
这并不是什么好消息。
It doesn't say great things.
那你会怎么做？
So what do you do?
我认为我的总体做法是讲真话，但既不盲目乐观，也不撒谎，而是尽量以积极的方式表达，但绝不说谎。
I think my approach broadly would be to tell the truth, but always to without sort of being Pollyanna about it, without sort of lying, give them the most sort of positive inflection or spin on it, but again, lying.
比如，如果一个人的星盘显示可能患有严重的、甚至可能是绝症的疾病，而你做了咨询盘、卧床盘之类的分析，星盘暗示情况会恶化，那么你就可以看看星盘中还有哪些其他因素可以缓解这种情况，并分析可能的时间范围，以及从弹性时间窗口的角度来看，最坏情况的上限会是什么。
So if there's a chart, say somebody has a very difficult perhaps potentially terminal illness and you've done a consultation chart or a decumbiture or whatever, and the chart suggests a worsening of the situation, you might then look at what other factors in the chart could mitigate that and you might look at what possible timeline that might be over and what might be the upper limit of that timeline from the sort of elasticated window perspective.
但你还得考虑，告诉患者这些信息真的会有帮助吗？
But then you've got to also consider, will it help this patient being told that?
因为这是一个非常重要的考量，因为我确实遇到过患者、客户，甚至朋友，他们从占星学中获得了巨大的帮助。
Because that is a huge consideration because I've had patients or clients or friends even who have massively benefited from astrology.
比如我们今天要分析的星盘中，有一个案例后来给我发了邮件，她被诊断出癌症，处境非常艰难，但她认为占星学救了她的命。
Like there's one later on in the charts we're going to be looking at today who emailed me later on, a cancer diagnosis, very difficult situation, and who credits the astrology with saving her life.
她说这非常有帮助，因为她当时处于如此绝望的境地。
She said this was so useful because she was in such a dire situation.
占星术给了她一个框架，告诉她：不，你的生存时间可能比你想象的要长，而且情况确实持续好转了。
The astrology sort of gave her a framework and said, No, you could survive this for longer than you think and it kept going.
但也有其他一些我过去为他们做过占星解读的病人，他们对此感到非常担忧。
But there are other patients who I've done astrological readings on in the past who have felt really worried by them.
你必须小心，你所说的话，尤其是负面内容，不要被当作诅咒，不要在人们心中植入可能产生反安慰剂效应、引发不良医疗反应的想法。
And you've got to be careful that what you're saying, particularly if it is negative, isn't taken as a curse and that you're not putting things into people's heads which could act as a nocebo to induce a bad medical reaction.
因此，我对这个问题没有简单的答案，但我努力在实践中做到：如实陈述我所看到的，同时尽量偏向最积极的解读。
So I have no easy answer to that, but what I try to do, what I usually aim to do in practice is be honest with what I see, but also just skew it towards the most constructive interpretation possible.
我这样做并不是在装假，因为我本质上是个新柏拉图主义者。
And I can do that without being a faker because I am a Neoplatonist basically.
我相信，我们确实参与了命运的呈现方式。
I do think that we participate in how our fate shows up.
命运，我认为至少在某种程度上是可以改变的，而且从经验上讲，它是可以被最大化利用的。
Fate, believe, is at least somewhat modifiable and certainly experientially it's maximizable.
你当然可以体验到各种事情。
You can certainly experience things.
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地面的情况总是与空中看到的不一样，占星术也是如此。
Things always look different on the ground than they do from the air and it's always the same with astrology.
你可以看看一些即将来临的走向或星相变化，然后想：天啊，这太糟糕了。
You can look at some upcoming directions or transits or whatever and think, Oh my God, it's going to be terrible.
但当你身临其境时，也许确实很糟，但糟糕的方式却和你原先想的完全不同。
But then when you're on the ground, maybe it is terrible, but it's terrible in a whole different way than you thought.
而且情况截然不同。
And it's very different.
当你真正置身于这张星图之中时，一切看起来和感觉上都会不一样。
It always looks and feels different when you're inhabiting the map, so to speak.
所以你不想向客户灌输任何存在性的恐惧，而应尽力消除它。
So it's sort of like you don't want to inject any existential dread into a client, you want to be doing your best to remove it.
通常这中间会有一种混合。
That often there's a mixture.
我认为莉莉说过，这是将谨慎与艺术相结合。
I think Lily said mixed discretion with art.
我觉得这是最贴切的表达了。
That's like the best way to put that, I think.
当然。
Sure.
我觉得它
I think it
是莉莉说的。
was Lilly who said that.
我可能记错了，但我记得是莉莉说的。
I might be misquoting, but I think it was Lilly.
是的。
Yeah.
他满脑子都是这类精彩的语录，所以我相信原话差不多就是这样。
Well, he's full of good quotes like that, so I'm sure there's something close to that.
但一方面，我不太想这么说。
But so on the one hand, I don't want to say this.
所以至少这是件好事，你知道，你对此是有意识的，通过保持这种意识并尽可能谨慎行事，努力不对客户造成任何伤害，这并不是说——比如一些持怀疑态度的人如果以最不友善的方式看待占星师时，可能会指责他们没有考虑这些因素，或者没有考虑到可能引发负面效应的可能性，就像你所说的，一种与积极安慰剂效应相反的效应。
So it's good at least, you know, this is something you're conscious of and in being conscious of it and trying to exercise as much caution and in trying to not do any harm to the client, it's not something where somebody, let's say some skeptics might accuse the astrologers of if they're being really uncharitable, the worst case scenario, not considering those things or not taking into account the possibilities of inducing, like you said, a no cebo, the opposite of a positive placebo effect.
因此，作为从业者，这一点非常重要，关乎你的责任心。
So that's something that's really important just in terms of being conscientious as a practitioner.
至于你提到的另一件事，我想既然你使用的是一个符号系统，那么在可能的结果上就存在某种程度的灵活性或可塑性；一旦你解读了星盘中的符号，就会有一系列可能的结果，但其中可能有一个最坏的解读情况，一个中等的情况，以及一个最好的情况。
And then with respect to the other thing you were saying, I guess since you're working with a symbol system, there is a certain amount of flexibility or malleability in terms of the potential outcome that you have a range of potential outcomes once you've read the symbolism of the chart, but that there's probably a worst case scenario in interpreting that symbol and then there's probably a moderate scenario and best case scenario.
所以你所说的其中一点是，尽管仍然在符号的语境和限制内进行解读，但你仍然希望稍微倾向于至少说出，你知道，根据星盘中呈现的内容，你所能预见的一些最佳可能情况。
So one of the things you're saying is just that while still interpreting the placements within the context and the constraints of the symbolism, you're still wanting to lean a little bit more towards at least saying, you know, what some of your best case scenarios are given what's shown up in the charts.
克里斯，你表达得太美了。
That's beautifully put, Chris.
是的，谢谢你。
Yes, thank you.
是的，完全正确。
Yeah, that's exactly right.
而且我认为我们在生活中经常能看到这种情况。
And I think we see that in life all the time.
我经常说，水总会找到自己的水平面，这适用于好事和坏事。
I often say that water finds its own level and that's for both good and bad.
我的意思是，作为占星师，我们经常在客户身上看到这种情况。
What I mean by that is, you know, we see this as astrologers with clients all the time.
你可能会告诉他们：你的星盘中有这个相位。
You might be sort of giving them sort of saying, Your chart has this aspect.
你为什么不去做这件事呢？
Why don't you do this thing?
而他们会说：哦，我早就这么做了。
And they're like, Oh, I'm already doing that.
人们会找到自己的定位，但也会陷入自己的恶习和惯性，陷入困境和舒适区。
People find their own niches, but they also find their own vices and ruts, ruts and niches.
水总会找到自己的水平面。
Water finds its own level.
你往往会发现，占星象征既会以困难的方式显现，也会以建设性的方式显现。
You tend to find that the astrological symbolism will show up in both difficult and constructive ways.
我认为，作为占星师，我们的职责是通过指出这些潜力并引导客户朝向它们，来最大化建设性的表现。
And our jobs as astrologers, I believe, is to maximize the constructive manifestation by signposting those potentials and directing clients towards them.
这很有道理。
That makes sense.
好的。
Okay.
我认为这种观点可以追溯到托勒密，因为当时在公元最初几个世纪的罗马帝国，一些其他占星师持更斯多葛主义的观点，认为占星术的目的仅仅是提前了解你的未来，以便知道该接受什么。
I think that approach goes all the way back to Ptolemy because while some of the other astrologers during that time period in the first couple centuries CE and the Roman Empire had more of a stoic approach that the purpose of astrology was just to find out what your future is so you knew what to accept ahead of time.
而托勒密具有更多的亚里士多德倾向，明确使用了医学类比。
Ptolemy who had more Aristotelian tendencies used explicitly a medical analogy.
他说，如果一个人没有意识到占星指示，什么也不做，那么占星预期的结果就会显现出来。
He said that sometimes with astrology if the person isn't conscious of the indication and does nothing, then yeah, the astrologically expected outcome will be what manifests.
然而，如果一个人意识到这些可能性，并努力去抵消、平衡或以某种方式改变它们，那么即使只是略微改变，也可能改变事情的走向，而这本身就有意义。
However, if the person becomes conscious of the possibilities and makes an effort to either counteract or counterbalance them or change things in some way, then they may be able to change the trajectory of things even if only slightly and that counts for something.
所以我觉得，你的部分哲学理念可以追溯到公元二世纪，并拥有延续至今的传承。
So part of your philosophy I feel like goes all the way back and has that lineage going all the way back to the second century in time.
我可能是通过潜移默化吸收了这些。
I've probably absorbed it by osmosis.
我觉得自己不像尤卡里斯特那样严谨地整理这些内容，我想我是慢慢像喜鹊一样收集起来的。
I don't think I'm quite as diligent a cataloger of these things as Eucharist, so I sort of magpie them together over time I think.
土星在射手座。
Native Jupiter and Gemini.
是的，这极大地影响了后来通过托勒密传承下来的整个占星传统，确实如此。
Yeah, well, it's just Well, that influenced so much of the subsequent astrological tradition through Ptolemy that just Oh, definitely.
在中世纪、文艺复兴和现代时期，出现了许多分支，成百上千的占星师和实践者在此哲学基础上不断扩展和发展。
Of which there have been branches and hundreds of branches of different astrologers and practitioners, the medieval and Renaissance and modern periods that have grown and expanded on that philosophy.
我只是想追溯到我所专研领域中经常引用的某个源头，而其他人可能会...
I was just sort of tracing it back to something I have referenced to in the area that I specialize in more whereas others might
不，这太棒了。
No, it's fantastic.
非常好。
It's really good.
你完全正确。
You're absolutely right.
它很可能就源于那里。
It probably does originate from there.
它回溯到那种关于消除无知的说法，你知道的？
It goes back to that sort of thing about the antidoting ignorance thing, you know?
是的。
Yeah.
以及我们之前关于枢纽、根源和追溯一切的讨论，只是从占星术的历史角度来做同样的事情。
As well as our earlier discussion about nexuses and roots and going back and everything, doing the same thing but just in terms of the history of astrology.
所以时间框架和严重程度，这些是这里重要的潜在因素的一部分，需要能够识别，有时除了占星术的结果之外，还要结合咨询或病床图等方法来识别，但这些可能是可调节的因素，这是你这里需要记住的重要教训之一。
So timeframes and severity, those are part of really what the potential is that's important here to be able to identify and what's unique potentially and to be able to identify sometimes in addition to outcomes with the astrology and with things like consultation or decumbiture charts, but those are potentially modifiable factors is one of the important take home lessons for you here.
是的， definitely。
Yes, definitely.
嗯，有时吧。
Well, sometimes.
有时候。
Sometimes.
这可能更准确。
It's probably more accurate.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
行。
All right.
那么我们现在开始看一些实例图表吗？还是还有其他初步事项要讨论？
So shall we get into example charts at this point or are there any other preliminary matters that
我们有的？
we have?
不，这样很好，克里斯，因为我觉得在我们分析图表时，其他一些事情肯定会冒出来。
No, that's great, Chris, because I think other things will probably certainly come up as we do the charts.
好的。
Okay.
好的。
All right.
现在我会在屏幕上共享你发给我的第一个示例图表。
So I'll share on the screen now the first example chart that you sent me.
为了帮助音频听众理解，我们不需要描述整个图表，只需说明相关部分即可。
And so just to describe a little bit what we're looking at for our audio listeners, we don't have to describe the whole chart but just the relevant pieces.
我们正在看的这张图表，上升点位于金牛座26度，中天位于摩羯座25度，你使用的是雷吉奥蒙塔努斯 quadrant 宫位系统。
One of the things we're looking at, so we're looking at a chart with 26 degrees of Taurus rising and 25 degrees of Capricorn on the Midheaven, and you're using a quadrant house system using Regiomontanus.
你最常用的是雷吉奥蒙塔努斯宫位系统吗？
Is that your preferred house system as Regio?
是的。
Yes.
关于医疗方面，绝对如此。
For medical stuff, absolutely.
如果需要，我稍后可以解释一下原因。
And I can say a bit about why in a moment if you like.
当然。
Sure.
请说。
Go ahead.
好的。
Okay.
我的意思是，我之所以使用象限宫位系统，是因为我想为我的选择找到一个理由。
Well, I mean, it's just It's because I try to have a reason for using the quadrant houses that I do.
在思考时，我会把整宫制作为背景，也就是说，某个星体是否从上升点可见。
I do use the whole sign system as a background in my thinking, in other words, whether something's visible from the Ascendant or not.
如果某个星体落在第十宫，它就与事业有关；在医疗语境下，则与医学整体相关。
And if something's in the tenth sign, it'll say something about career or in medical context about medicine in general.
但我喜欢这种四分宫系统，因为它会稍微调整不同宫位的共主星，这对预测非常重要。
But I like the quadrant houses this because they shift the co rulers of different houses around a bit more, is really important for prediction.
我喜欢这一点。
I like that.
至于我为什么使用Regio系统，这仅仅是我的个人想法，因为它首先源于传统。
In terms of why I use regio, and this is just my own thinking on it, because it divides Firstly, it's from tradition.
莉莉使用过它，英国文艺复兴时期的占星家们都使用这个系统。
Lily used it and the English sort of Renaissance astrological bods all use that system.
所以，好吧，这是一个原因。
So, okay, that's one reason.
但我喜欢它用于医学的第二个原因是，它基于将赤道投影到天空上，就像把赤道分成12个部分，再投影到黄道上。
But the second reason I like it for medical is because it's dividing the sky based on projecting the equator onto the sky, sort of like slices up the equator into 12 segments and projects it onto the ecliptic.
这就像是把地球的主体投影到天空上。
So that's like projecting the body of the Earth onto the sky.
因此，在医学占星中，特别是当你关注与身体相关的生理问题时，这个概念比使用普拉西杜斯或其他一些基于时间弧划分的系统更有意义。
So for medical astrology, particularly if you're using it for looking at physical stuff to do with the body, that conceptually makes more sense than using Placidus or some of the other systems which are dividing up time, know, their arcs of time.
所以我会在命盘中使用普拉西杜斯系统来进行一些时机推算技术。
So I use Placidus for example with natal charts for some timing techniques.
有一种技术，我认为是莉莉用于卜卦的，但它在出生盘中也同样适用，就是以每宫五年，从上升点开始逆时针计数，这种方法用普拉西杜斯宫位效果更好，因为它是一种时间划分。
Know, there's a technique from I think Lilly used it for horary, but it works perfectly well in birth charts where you use five years per house and counting I think anti clockwise from the Ascendant and that works better with Placidus houses because it's a timing.
普拉西杜斯是一种时间的划分方式。
Placidus is a division of time.
我喜欢在选择某个四分宫系统时，不仅有历史传统，还能找到形而上的理论依据。
I like there to be a sort of metaphysical rationale as well as just a historical precedent for why a particular quadrant house system might be used.
这就是我的两个理由。
So those are my two reasons.
对。
Yeah.
这很有道理。
That makes sense.
好的。
All right.
那我们回到这张星盘吧。
So let's go back to the chart.
对于音频听众来说，关于这张星盘，我们还需要提前提到哪些其他相关要点？
What are the other just in terms of relevant pieces for the audio listeners that we have to mention upfront when it comes to this chart?
对。
Right.
是的。
Yeah.
因为这张星盘是一个孩子的星盘。
Just because this chart was the chart of a child.
所以回到我们之前说的，上升点位于大约26度金牛座，代表母亲。
So going back to what we were saying earlier, the Ascendant with the sort of 26 Taurus was the mother.
我们正在看这张星盘中的第五宫及其宫主星。
We're looking at the fifth house and its ruler in this chart.
那么，问题是什么？
So what was the question?
当时的设置是怎样的？
What was the setup?
好的。
Okay.
所以，没错，这是个很好的观点。
So yeah, that's a good point.
这是一次咨询占星图，当时我只是在米德尔塞克斯大学的诊所进行咨询教学。
So this was a consultation chart and this was just a consultation at the university clinic I to teach at Middlesex University.
母亲带着孩子来就诊，孩子是患者。
The mother had brought her child in and the child was the patient.
但显然孩子太小了，无法给予同意，因此上升点代表父母，而第五宫及其宫主星在这张图中代表孩子。
But obviously the child was very young and couldn't therefore give consent, so the Ascendant represents the parent and the fifth house and the fifth house ruler in this chart represents the child.
所以孩子并不是说：‘妈妈，我们去见个占星师吧。’
So the child wasn't like, Hey, mom, let's go see an astrologer.
提个卜卦问题。
Have a horary question
令人惊讶的是，并没有，所以
to Surprisingly not, so
是的。
it's Yeah.
当然。
Sure.
但主要是母亲带孩子来的，顺便问了关于孩子的问题，但
But was more the mother came in and happened to have the child with and the question was about the child, but it
这并不是他们的问题。
wasn't what This they question.
这甚至根本不是那个问题。
Wasn't even This was literally the consultation chart.
所以这是咨询开始的时间。
So this was the time the consultation began.
这是在大学诊所，我当时并没有在诊所做占星。
This was at the university clinic, so I wasn't doing astrology at the clinic.
他们可能会把我烧死在火刑柱上之类的。
They'd have had me burned at the stake or something.
所以我当时只是在教授草药医学。
So I was literally just teaching herbal medicine.
所以我通常会记录下每次咨询的开始时间，然后趁机用手机快速看一下星盘，只是为了获得一些占星方面的洞察，因为我的职责是教授草药医学和担任临床督导，而不是占星师。
So I would usually note down the start times of consultations and just have a quick look at the chart on my phone or whatever for my own R and and just to sort of get a little bit of astrological insight into the situation when I could because I was there to teach herbal medicine and as a clinical supervisor, not as an astrologer.
所以这个星盘是关于一位母亲带孩子来咨询的那次会面。
So this was the chart of a consultation in which the mother brought the child.
是的。
Yeah.
我总是不停地记录时间、会面时间，并在咨询发生时截取星盘截图。
I'm constantly writing down times and meeting times and taking a screenshot of charts for when consultation or some sort of thing like that happens.
我明白你的意思。
I know what you mean here.
这次是提前预约的，还是临时来的病人？
So was this scheduled ahead of time or was it like a walk in client?
这是一个有趣的旁支话题，克里斯，因为大多数MET咨询都是提前安排好的。
That's an interesting side point, getting onto there Chris, because most of the MET consultations are scheduled ahead of time.
所以我有两个问题，比如，这会不会使星盘失效？
So a couple of questions I've got is like, Does that not invalidate the charts?
我会说，不会，因为在这个时刻预约的就是这位患者。
And I'm like, Well, no, because it's that patient who's booked in at that moment.
很多时候，患者会迟到十分钟、二十分钟，或者早到五分钟，这样就会得到不同的星盘。
Very often patients will turn up ten minutes late or twenty minutes late or five minutes early and you get a different chart.
这种机制真的很神奇。
It's really crazy how it works out.
所以人们最终会得到正确的星盘。
So people get the right chart sort of thing.
你经常能从见面星盘中看到这种情况：你本来约好某人见面，时间安排好了，但后来推迟了，上升星座变了，结果导致一个凶星落在角宫，结果见面特别糟糕，或者不顺利，反之亦然。
And you can see that constantly with just meeting charts of like you're supposed to meet up with somebody and it's scheduled for this, but then it gets delayed and the rising sign changes and it ends up putting a malefic like angular and then it's like a terrible meeting or it doesn't go well or the opposite.
你本来约好见面，日盘中火星正好落在上升点，看起来是个糟糕的星盘，但他们晚到了半小时，火星换了一个星座，突然间木星就落在了有利的位置上。
You're supposed to meet and scheduled and Mars is going to be right on the Ascendant in a day chart and it looks like a terrible chart, but then they end up being thirty minutes late and it switches signs, and all of a sudden Jupiter's like on the positive Exactly.
结束并进行
End and goes
今天还真碰上了。
actually had that today.
真的吗？
Oh, really?
是的，就是我们的星盘。
Yeah, with our chart.
我来分享一下，实际情况是，我们原本安排了这次会面，但由于时间安排不同，我原本打算让巨蟹座上升。
I'm gonna share Well, what happened is our chart, we had scheduled this and I scheduled it for just due to different time constraints and we were gonna do Cancer rising today.
我想要的是让木星落在中天，基于我其他的一些考虑。
And what I was shooting for was just putting Jupiter on the Midheaven based on some other things I was going for.
木星位于中天，大约在天秤座19度，巨蟹座上升。
Jupiter on the Midheaven at about 19 Pisces here with Cancer rising.
因为有人初看这个星盘可能会想，巨蟹座上升，月亮在天蝎座。
Because somebody might otherwise initially look at this chart and think, you know, it's Cancer rising and the Moon is in Scorpio.
是的，和南交点有关。
Yeah, with the South Node.
对，对，对。
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
虽然月亮位于第五宫（整宫制），这本是一个好宫位，但月亮在这里其实并不理想。
Which is not really a great place for the Moon even though it is in the fifth, let's say, whole Sign house which is a good house.
但由于夏令时——这在许多地方简直是占星师的噩梦——我们最终晚了一个小时。
But due to daylight savings time, which of course is like the bane of astrologers in many locations, we ended up being an hour late.
结果发生了变化，月亮换了一个星座。
What happened is it switched, the Moon changed signs.
因此，我们仍然保持了巨蟹座上升，但月亮进入了第六宫的射手座，而如果这是一个关于问题的卜卦图，这反而更贴切地描述了我们实际讨论的内容——医疗占星。
And so we still ended up with Cancer rising, but the Moon moved into Sagittarius in the sixth whole sign house, which arguably, if this is a horary chart of a question, is more descriptive of what we're actually talking about, is medical astrology.
当涉及医疗问题时，命宫主星落入第六宫并不令人意外，因为问题或关注点本身就围绕健康与疾病。
And sometimes when medical questions come up, finding the ruler of the Ascendant in the sixth house is not surprising necessarily because the focus of the question or the inquiry is on health and illness matters.
是的，完全正确。
Yeah, fully.
它
It
某种程度上可能更好，因为月亮正在形成对白羊座太阳的三分相。
may even be a little better in a way because the Moon's applying to trine of the Sun in Aries something.
但这很有趣。
But it's interesting.
就像我们之前说的，水星正在接近与海王星合相。
It's just like we were saying beforehand, Mercury is applying to conjunct Neptune.
会发生什么问题呢？
What's going to go wrong?
是的。
Yeah.
你几天前就提醒过我。
You kind of warned me a few days ago.
你说，我们走着瞧吧。
You're like, We'll see how it goes.
已经说了会有一些
Already said There'll be some
技术问题之类的，是的，有点状况，但没关系。
tech issues or something, Yeah, something, but it's fine.
事情就是这样。
It's the way it goes.
但有趣的是，你最终还是会得到你本该得到的星盘，对吧？
But it is funny, you do end up getting the charts that you're supposed to get, right?
我有过这种情况，精心安排了一个择日，结果事情却变得奇怪，最后得到了一颗不同的星之类的。
I've had that where I've carefully constructed an election and then it's just like things go wonky and you end up with a different star or something.
是的。
Yeah.
但那就是
But that's
不过这是一个非常重要的观点：有时即使在安排事情时，如果时间安排允许你们两人的轨迹在那一刻交汇，且没有因为必须提前、推迟或有时被取消而偏离轨道。
a really important point though that sometimes even in scheduling things, if the schedules allow for the two of you for your trajectories to intersect at that moment and they're not set off course by either having to go early or go late or sometimes being cancelled altogether.
有时候，即使计划再周详，也会因为超出你控制的原因而完全取消。
Sometimes the best laid plans get completely canceled for reasons outside of your control.
但如果你的路径真的能在那个时刻交汇，那么那就是你们本该相遇的时刻，那个时刻的星盘会准确地描述其本质。
But if your paths are able to actually intersect at that time, then that was the moment you were supposed to meet and there will be something about the chart of that moment that will accurately describe the nature.
这就像它从未停止运作一样，我们都在巨兽的腹中，或者用一个不那么阴森的比喻来说，我们都在宇宙的身体里，某种类似的东西，但关键是我们从未置身其外。
It's like it never stops working, We're all inside the belly of the beast or for a slightly less ominous metaphor sort of inside the body of the universe or something something, but it's like we're never outside of it.
所以这就像占星学中那个老争论：如今剖宫产和诱导分娩增多，是否削弱了出生星盘的有效性？
So it's like that old astrological argument about does the fact that there are more induced births now invalidate birth charts?
我赌不会，因为我们都在这个系统之中，一切事物始终相互呼应。
And my money's on no because we're all inside this system that everything's corresponding to everything else constantly.
如果占星学的理论在任何程度上成立，这些关联就不会失效。
If astrological doctrine is in any way valid, those links don't stop working.
但这无疑是一个有趣的讨论。
But it's an interesting discussion for sure.
是的。
Yeah.
这就引出了最后一点，即占时卜卦和咨询星盘最令人震惊的一点在于：当你在那一刻投射星盘时，它会以某种令人惊讶的方式描述那个时刻正在发生的事情。
And that just brings up the last point which is just that one of the things that's so startling about horary and also about consultation charts is that the chart when you cast it for that moment will describe that moment and what's going on at that time in sometimes startling ways.
这再次让我想到最近关于塔罗牌的事情——虽然我不打算过多展开，但过去几个月我留意到，塔罗牌描述我当时所思所想或所提问题的准确程度，着实让我感到惊讶。
And that's one of the things again, not to dwell on it too much, to bring it back to the tarot thing recently that as I've been paying attention to that over the past few months, I've been startled at the extent to which it actually has described things that I've been thinking about or questions that I've had in that moment.
但这让我想起占时卜卦中经常出现的一种现象：我反复看到，上升宫的守护星最终会落在被问及的宫位中。
But that just reminds me of a phenomenon that often happens in horary that I would see over and over again where the ruler of the Ascendant would end up being in the house that was under question.
这常常是确认星盘准确描述了现实情况的一个简单依据，也说明这个星盘值得信赖——当星盘本身就在描述那一刻正在发生的事情时。
That was often an easy confirmation that the chart was accurately describing things and it would be good to rely on is when the chart itself is describing what was happening in that moment.
当然。
Definitely.
而且，我在教学时经常强调的另一个因素是：情境决定一切，这种情境既包括内在的，也包括外在的。
And and, you know, the other factor that I often belabor a bit when I'm teaching is is context is everything, and and that context is internal and external.
内在情境指的是星盘内部，正如你刚才所描述的，星盘通常会明确告诉你它是否在谈论某个问题——我觉得占星术从未停止发挥作用，但对于那些真正牵动人心、极其重要，甚至只是关于‘我的手提包去哪儿了’这类微小占时问题，对当事人而言都至关重要。
So internal means within the chart itself as you were just describing, the chart will often really tell you if it's talking about the It's like I don't think astrology ever stops working, but for those issues that are really plugged in, that are really important or even minor horary questions about where's my missing handbag with, it really matters to the person at the time.
它一定会显现出来，星盘会非常清晰地描述它，因此存在内在情境；但同时还有外在情境，因为在任何时刻，都有数十亿件事情正在发生。
It's going to show up, the chart will describe it really so there'll be internal context, but then there's the external context about at any given moment, there are a billion different things happening.
有一只狗正在出生，一个烤面包机正在插电，有人丢了鞋子，另一个人搬进了新公寓，另一个婴儿……各种各样的事情都在发生。
There's a dog being born, a toaster being plugged in, somebody's lost their shoe, someone else is moving into a new flat, another baby's Whatever, loads of things happening.
而所有这些事件，如果发生在同一地点，都会拥有相同的星盘。
And that all of those events will have, if they're in the same location, will have the same chart.
因此，上下文意味着你需要根据每个不同的情境来解读星盘，这也是我认为许多占星统计研究——虽然我觉得它们很有用——却显得乏力、说‘这没什么道理’的原因之一。
So the context means you read the chart differently for each of those contexts, which is one of the reasons I think why many of these sort of statistical studies of astrology, which I think are very useful actually, but fall rather flat and say, Oh, there's nothing to it.
因为当你在没有上下文的情况下冷读星盘时，你并不知道你正在接入的是哪个层面。
Because when you read a chart cold without context, you don't know what level you're plugging into it.
只有当你将星盘与某个真实生活中的具体关切联系起来时，它才会被激活，因为只有这时你才能聚焦并放大符号中的特定层面，明白自己在看什么，这样说你能理解吗？
It's only when you plug a chart into a particular real life set of concerns that it becomes animated because only then can you sort of pull focus and zoom in on particular levels of the symbolism and know what you're looking at, if that makes sense.
是的，这很有道理。
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
我的意思是，这引出了一个问题——我不想展开一场全面的争论，但我确实觉得，当谈到关于流时占星的争论时，如果一个人有一个情感上非常重要的问题，那么这个星盘往往更生动地描述出情境及其结果。
I mean, does bring up, and not to get a whole side debate, but I do feel like when it comes to that debate sometimes about horary, if there is a really important question that has a lot of emotional charge for the person, there is often a greater likelihood of that chart really vividly describing the situation as well as its outcome.
而我觉得，有时候如果一个人对某个问题并不在意，或者反复向不同的占星师提出同一个问题，那么背后的情感能量可能就比较弱，星盘也就不太可能清晰地描绘出问题本身及其结果。
Whereas I feel like sometimes if a person was not invested in a question or was just asking something repeatedly over and over again to different astrologers or something that there might be less of a charge behind it and less likelihood for that chart to very vividly describe both the question and the outcome.
当然。
Definitely.
对。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
我的意思是，我不确定。
I mean, I don't know.
不同的从业者会有不同的看法
Different practitioners like fall on
不同的术语。
different terms.
不。
No.
我同意，克里斯。
I agree, Chris.
我把这个叫做弹性耗尽效应，你知道吗？
I call that the perished elastic effect, you know?
所以你一直问同一个问题，它会慢慢反弹回来。
So you just keep asking the same thing, it sort of gets back.
约翰·弗鲁利在一本关于占时术的书中写过这个，我想是其中一本，正如我所说，我觉得这些书非常出色。
John Fruhley wrote about this in I think one of his books, books on horary, which as I say, I think are excellent.
我知道他有些争议性，但正如我所说，我认为他作为占星师非常出色，他的教学非常富有启发性，有时甚至非常精准。
I'm aware that he's somewhat controversial, as I say, I think he's brilliant as an astrologer, he's wonderful and his teaching is very, very didactic sometimes but very precise.
他谈到了这种现象。
He talks about that phenomenon.
如果你一遍又一遍地问同一个问题，最终星盘还是会给你一些回应，但它们只会开始显示你奶奶什么时候来喝茶之类的事情。
If you keep asking the same question over and over, eventually the charts will still show you something, but they'll just start showing you when your grandma's coming to tea or something.
它不再真正给你关于问题的解答，因为那已经不再是关键的时间点了。
It'll stop really giving you the question because it's no longer a significant time.
你差不多就是这个意思，类似这样的情况。
You've kind of Yeah, something along those lines.
不过这很有趣。
It's fascinating though.
它的工作原理真的很有趣。
It's really interesting how it works.
也许可以打个比方，像是被稀释了什么的。
Maybe an analogy could be like watered it down or something.
比如你有一杯红酒，如果你不断加水，一半水一半酒，然后再加半杯水。
Like if you had a glass of let's say red wine versus if you keep putting water and putting half water and watering it down and then you put another half of a cup of water in it.
里面还有一点酒，但大部分都是水。
There's a little bit of wine in there, but it's mostly water.
你在反对顺势疗法吗，克里斯？
Are you arguing against homeopathy, Chris?
不，我觉得这个比喻很好。
No, I think it's a good analogy.
我明白你的意思。
I know what you mean.
确实有点像那样。
It's something like that for sure.
不管怎样，这是个很有趣的问题。
Anyway, it's a fascinating question.
对。
Right.
家opathy推特别因为我这个取消我。
Homeopathy Twitter do not cancel me for this.
我只是在开玩笑。
I was just being facetious.
他根本不是在争论什么。
He's not arguing as anything at all.
好吧。
All right.
那我们回到示例图表。
So back to the example chart.
好的。
Okay.
就在这里。
Here it is.
所以她来找你，那次咨询是怎么回事？
So she came to you and what was the consultation
抱歉，我得说，用这个星盘开场有点沉重，因为她的孩子当时被诊断出患有罕见的绝症，一种癌症。
Sorry, was really I mean, it's kind of a dark chart to open with, basically her very young child had a terminal diagnosis, a very rare kind of cancer.
这位客户是使用草药治疗的，他们当然已经了解医生、医疗团队和肿瘤专家的意见，只是希望借助草药来辅助孩子应对新一轮化疗，减轻恶心感，更好地承受治疗，并改善整体健康和生活质量。
So this was a client, a herbal medicine client, so they were coming obviously with the knowledge of their doctors and the medical team and the oncologists just for some support for the child who's going through yet another round of chemo just to make them less nauseous and able to handle it a bit better and just improve their general health and quality of life and everything.
所以我看了这个星盘，重点关注第五宫，因为第五宫代表孩子。
So I had a look at this chart and I was looking at the fifth house because that's the house of children.
我说过，孩子无法给予同意，所以不能作为上升点。
And I say children can't give consent so they can't be the Ascendant.
在这个雷吉奥蒙塔努斯 quadrant 系统中，第五宫的宫头是14度狮子座，因此其守护星是位于射手座、正好在第八宫宫头上的太阳。
And the fifth house in this Regio Montanus quadrant system has 14 degrees Leo on the cusp, and so its ruler would be the Sun in Sagittarius right on the cusp of the eighth house.
还有上升26度的金牛座，这个26度金牛座正是大陵五所在的位置，这颗固定恒星意味着失去理智。
And also the 26 degree Taurus rising, that 26 Degrees Taurus is where Algol is this fixed star that implies sort of losing your head.
这是一颗非常凶险的恒星。
It's a very difficult star.
它象征着火星以及某种炎症和潜在的死亡。
It's a star of Mars and some sort of inflammation and potential death.
我认为它也象征着母亲的心理状态，因为这是她病重的孩子。
Now it also symbolized the mother's state of mind I would think because this is her child who is very sick.
所以显然，她对此感到非常痛苦。
So obviously she was very unhappy about that.
无论如何，从这张星盘来看，预测 prognosis 时，我会把太阳视为孩子，月亮则作为事件的总体指示星。
Anyway, so just in terms of prognosis from this chart, I would look at the Sun as being the child and the Moon as the general significatrix of events.
我通常使用马沙·阿拉（Masha Allah）在《论接纳》一书中提出的预测系统，据我所知，这本书至今已被翻译成英文两次。
And I use for sort of general prognosis, I tend to use this system from Masha Allah, his book On Reception, which is translated I think twice to my knowledge so far into English.
你有罗伯特·韩的译本，而本·戴克斯也在他的《萨尔与马沙·阿拉》著作中出色地完成了翻译。
You've got Robert Han's translation and also Ben Dykes has done a brilliant job translating it in his works of Sal and Masha'allah.
但关于这本关于接收的书，它的价值在于提供了一种清晰而有用的方法，帮助我们理解事情可能如何发展。
But the point about this book on reception is it gives a really clear and helpful way of sort of seeing how things are likely to move forward.
它说：取 significator，也就是上升宫的守护星，或者在这个案例中是太阳——第五宫的守护星，看看这个行星是否照见上升宫？
It says, Take the significator, so the ruler of the Ascendant or in this case, the Sun, the ruler of the fifth, and does that planet behold the Ascendant?
它是否位于与上升星座成任何相位的星座中？
Is it in a sign which is in any aspect to the rising sign?
在这个案例中，太阳位于射手座，而上升星座位于金牛座。
In this case, the Sun's in Sagittarius and the rising sign is in Taurus.
因此，按照传统的整宫相位体系，太阳并未与上升宫形成相位，也没有照见上升宫。
So in terms of the traditional whole sign aspects, it's not aspecting the Ascendant, it's not beholding the Ascendant.
在这种情况下，马沙·阿拉说，你应该转而关注月亮，前提是月亮照见了上升宫。
So in that case, Masha'allah says you would go on to prefer the Moon assuming that was beholding the rising sign.
在这个星盘中，月亮位于狮子座，而上升星座是金牛座。
In this chart, the Moon is in Leo and the rising sign is Taurus.
月亮确实照见了上升星座，因为它与上升星座形成星座间的刑相位。
So the Moon does see the rising sign because it's in square by sign to the rising sign.
而且只是
And just
为了给听音频的人描述一下星盘位置，上升点是26度金牛座，太阳位于25度射手座，实际上正好位于雷吉蒙塔努斯体系中第八宫的宫头。
to describe the placements for the audio people, so 26 Taurus rising, the Sun is at 25 Sagittarius, and it's actually right on the cusp of the 8th Quadrant house in Regimentanus.
上升点的守护星金星位于10度水瓶座，在第十宫，月亮位于0度狮子座，在第四宫。
The ruler of the Ascendant Venus is at 10 Aquarius in the tenth house and the Moon is at zero Leo in the fourth quadrant house.
太棒了。
Brilliant.
谢谢，克里斯。
Thanks, Chris.
是的，太棒了。
Yeah, fantastic.
所以
So
我会关注孩子与太阳之间的关系，因为太阳是第五宫的守护星，以此来了解孩子的一般经历。
I would look for what happened to the child in terms of the child's general experience to the Sun because that's the ruler of the fifth.
我会看看太阳从这里移动到了哪里。
I would just see where the Sun went from here.
但我会关注月亮，因为它代表整体的发展趋势，因为在这张星盘中，月亮比太阳更有影响力——月亮能看见上升点，而太阳不能，仅凭这个玛沙阿拉的规则。
But I would look at the Moon as what's going to happen overall because the Moon has more power in this chart in the sense that it sees the Ascendant whereas the Sun doesn't just based on that masha alloteny.
所以，实际上应该从月亮的运行来判断改善或恶化的时机。
So it actually take the timing of improvement or deterioration from the Moon.
那么，先看太阳的情况：太阳位于射手座25度，随后进入摩羯座，并对火星形成六分相，而那时火星刚好位于水瓶座末尾；但当太阳真正与火星形成六分相时，火星已经进入双鱼座。
So what happened, looking at the Sun first, the Sun is at 25 Sagittarius and actually goes into It moves on into Capricorn and then it casts a sextile to Mars which by then in this chart Mars is just at the end of Aquarius, but by the time the Sun actually sextiled Mars, Mars was in Pisces.
所以太阳进入摩羯座，与火星形成六分相，随后火星在双鱼座越过南交点，最终与土星形成刑相。
So the Sun moves into Capricorn, sextiles Mars, and then Mars in Pisces crossed the south node and then eventually went on to square Saturn.
这对我来说表明了初期的改善，因为太阳在摩羯座与火星形成六分相，这正是玛沙阿拉的著作《论接纳》的由来。
So that to me showed an initial improvement because the Sun sextiling Mars from Capricorn, and this is why Masha'allah's work is called On Reception.
在摩羯座，摩羯座是火星的尊位。
In Capricorn, Capricorn is the sign of Mars's exaltation.
因此，他会说火星在摩羯座接纳了太阳。
So he would have said Mars received the Sun from Capricorn.
因此，这会抵消火星可能带来的任何伤害。
So that would negate any harm that Mars might cause.
然后火星从双鱼座对土星形成刑相位，且没有接纳，这表明情况会进一步恶化。
And then Mars went on to square Saturn from Pisces without reception, which would indicate more difficult development.
因此，我认为这个孩子的状况可能会通过与火星相关的方式得到改善。
So from that, I would think that the child would get some improvement in their condition perhaps through martial means.
这可能是通过手术、放射治疗或药物实现的。
That might be through surgery or radiation or drugs.
在这张星盘中，火星掌管第七宫，位于第十宫位，处于第十一宫区，但属于第十宫位。
Mars in this chart ruled the seventh house and is in the tenth sign, in the eleventh quadrant house, but the tenth sign.
第七宫是医生的宫位，在这张星盘中指的是我，但也泛指所有医生。
So the seventh house is the house of physicians or in this chart it would be me, but it's also doctors in general.
第十宫和第十宫位与医学相关。
And the tenth house and sign are related to medicine.
火星也对第十宫头的摩羯座拥有部分管辖权。
Mars also has some rulership of Capricorn on the tenth cusp.
我认为这是摩羯座的共同命主星，这意味着土星和火星在摩羯座中都具有很强的力量。
I think it's a co almuten of Capricorn which means that both Saturn and Mars have a lot of strength in Capricorn.
无论如何，太阳与火星相位并得到接纳，随后火星又与土星形成四分相但未获接纳。
Anyway, so the Sun went to Mars with reception and then Mars went on to square Saturn without reception.
这表明最初可能通过药物或治疗有所改善。
That showed an initial improvement perhaps through drugs or treatment.
然后火星经过南交点，这稍有削弱作用，接着又与土星形成四分相，可能预示着困难的情况。
And then Mars goes over the south node which is a bit weakening and then squares Saturn which could indicate difficult things.
至于具体的时间点，位于狮子座的月亮将与金星形成对冲，我认为这代表暂时的改善；之所以说是暂时的，是因为这是对冲相位；之所以说是改善，是因为涉及的是金星。
And then in terms of the specific timing, the Moon in Leo is going to oppose Venus which I take to be temporary improvement, temporary because it's an opposition, improvement because it's Venus.
而这里的金星并不是任何困难宫位的主要守护星。
And Venus here wasn't the main ruler of any of the difficult houses.
她与第六宫共享守护权，因为天秤座被拦截在第六宫中。
She is a co ruler of the sixth house because Libra is intercepted in the sixth.
但在这里，金星位于第十宫，并守护第一宫。
But here Venus is in the tenth and ruling the first.
所以我会说，这只是一个暂时的改善，而不是其他任何情况。
So I would say that would be a temporary improvement rather than anything else.
然后我认为金星接着形成了与木星的三分相，你可能会想，哦，这太好了。
And then I think Venus went on to, was it trine Jupiter, which you might think, Oh, that's great.
但在这个星盘中，木星掌管第八宫。
But in this chart, Jupiter rules the eighth house.
考虑到我们之前已经看到或我已提出太阳与火星相位，然后火星又与土星相位，我认为这可能预示着在这种情况下，大约十个月后可能出现死亡。
Thought that might, given that we've already seen or that I'd already suggested that the Sun went to Mars and then Mars went to Saturn, I thought that might indicate potential death in this circumstance for around ten months.
我记得当时这并不是一个占星学客户，这只是位母亲带着孩子来，寻求草药建议之类的帮助。
And I remember at the time, this wasn't an astrological client, this was just mother who brought her child and gave herbal advice and whatnot.
我记得把这件事写在一张小纸条上，心想：十个月后，孩子不幸去世了。
I remember writing this down on a little piece of paper and just thinking, And ten months later, child unfortunately did pass away.
实际上发生的是，他们从我们这里接受了草药治疗，她反馈说这在一定程度上缓解了孩子的症状，让他们感觉好了一些。
And what actually happened was that they got some treatment, herbal treatment from us, which she reported helped the child's symptoms a bit and made them feel a bit better.
然后他们去看了，因为我说过，这是大学里的学生实习诊所。
Then they went to see because I said at the university it was a student training clinic.
我们没有足够的时间来做研究。
We didn't have all the time necessary to research.
针对癌症患者所需的研究量是巨大的。
The amount of research that's required for cancer patients is huge.
所以我推荐了另外几位专攻辅助肿瘤学的草药师。
So I suggested a couple of other herbalists who specialize in complementary oncology.
我想她带着孩子去见了他们。
And I think she took the child to see them.
他们在改善症状方面做得不错，但最终情况还是恶化了。
And they did pretty well in terms of getting some improvement, but eventually things took a turn.
这孩子，正如我所说，最初被诊断为绝症。
And this was a child, as I say, with initially a terminal diagnosis.
这真的很令人难过，但看看这幅星盘，它如此清晰地预示了事情的发展——虽然结果不幸，但看到事情真的如预测般发生，还是很有意思的。
So it was really sad, but just looking, the chart was so eloquent and things in this case did just unfold as predicted which is not fortunate, but it interesting to see that happen.
是的。
Yeah.
你最终并没有给她提供占星建议，只是记录了咨询的时间，你的唯一建议是草药疗法，但你对星盘在预测时间上的精准程度感到着迷。
You didn't end up giving her astrological advice, you just noted the time of the consultation and your only input was herbalism but were fascinated by the extent to which the chart was able to time things.
你是从月亮和金星之间的度数差得出十个月的吗？月亮对金星的合相确实是这样。
And were you getting the ten months from the number of degrees between the Moon and Venus, that the Moon's application of Venus is Yes.
十度
10 degrees
我把这些要点整理在幻灯片上了，因为我记不太清了。
I've sort of got the digest of this on the slide because I couldn't remember it.
我认为月亮与金星相冲，相差大约十度，然后金星又移动了额外十度，形成与木星的三分相。
I think the Moon opposed Venus within sort of 10 degrees, and then I think Venus moved an additional 10 degrees to trine Jupiter.
所以月亮位于固定宫位和星座，这可能意味着大约十个月后会有某些改善。
So the Moon was in a fixed house and sign, so that might have been sort of ten months to some improvement.
而金星位于另一个固定宫位和星座，因此又过了十个月，可能迎来死亡。
And then Venus was in, I think, another fixed house and sign, so that'd be another ten months to possible death.
所以我想，是的，正是金星在固定宫位和星座中移动了十度，预示着十个月后可能出现死亡。
So I think that's where it can Well, I think, yeah, it was just Venus moving 10 degrees in a fixed housing sign, ten months to possible death.
这正是我所想的。
That was what I thought.
我当然希望我错了，但结果在这个案例中确实如此。
I obviously hoped I was wrong, but it turned out that in this case that's what happened.
正如我在这一星盘中所说，我更倾向于月球而非金星，金星而非木星，因为木星掌管第八宫，而月球孕育了它，并且观照着上升点。
And as I say in this chart, I preferred Moon to Venus, Venus to Jupiter, Jupiter ruling the eighth house to the Sun because the Moon conceived, it beholds the Ascendant.
所以根据马沙阿拉关于接纳的规则，能够观照上升点的 significator 比不能观照上升点的会更准确地给出时间判断，这样说你明白吗？
So according to Masha'allah's rules on reception, the significator that sees the Ascendant will give the timing more accurately than the one that doesn't, if that makes sense.
当然。
Sure.
是的，这很有道理。
Yeah, that makes sense.
想到我们之前关于建立占卜体系的讨论，设定好规则然后遵循规则，我认为通常情况下，命理师进入咨询时所采用的规则，就是真正起作用的规则。
Thought it was Going back to our discussion previously about setting up the In divinatory system, setting up your rules and then following your rules, I think usually it's like that whatever rules the horary practitioner goes into the consultation with will be the rules that work.
因此，我不想对你的分析进行质疑或重新解读，但我最初看这个星盘时，注意到一个细节：实际上第六宫的宫头我以为是第五宫。
And so I don't want to second guess or reanalyze your thing here, something I noticed was just when I first looked at this, I thought the cusp of what's actually the sixth quadrant house was the fifth.
但这部分是因为我也是在整体星座框架下观察，注意到处女座相对于上升星座金牛座是第五个星座，而第五宫的守护星水星不仅与冥王星在星盘中相合，相位仅差两度（14度摩羯座至16度摩羯座），而且水星实际上正处于停滞状态。
But that's partially because I'm also looking at in the whole sign framework and just noting that Virgo is the fifth sign relative to Taurus, the rising sign, and then the ruler of the fifth sign is Mercury, which is not just conjunct Pluto in the chart within two degrees at 14 Capricorn to 16 Capricorn, but Mercury is actually also stationing.
在这张星盘中，它距离逆行停滞还有两天，这是另一个非常不好的征兆。
It's two days away from stationing retrograde in this chart, which is another really not good indication.
哦，不，不。
Oh, no, no.
不管你怎么看，这张星盘里都有大量迹象。
There's loads of indications in this chart whichever way you slice it.
所以你有太阳位于第八宫宫头，它指向火星，火星又指向土星——正如你所说，土星是第六宫的守护星，与冥王星相合且处于逆行停滞状态，月亮指向金星，而金星又指向第八宫的守护星。
So you've got the Sun on the cusp of the eighth, which goes to Mars, which then goes to Saturn, the ruler of the sixth house as you say, conjunct Pluto stationing retrograde, the Moon going to Venus and then Venus going to the ruler of the eighth house.
这很有趣，因为所有这些似乎都指向了可能不是水星这一环节。
It's fascinating because all of it shows sort of maybe not the Mercury step.
它们似乎都显示出某种暂时的改善，然后情况又急转直下，或者类似的趋势。
They all seem to show some temporary improvement and then a turn for the worse or something along those lines.
至少我是这么理解的。
Well, at least that's how I interpreted it.
是的。
Yeah.
所以有时一个星盘中会存在多个迹象，全都指向同一个方向，或者在某些情况下，仿佛在齐声呐喊同一件事。
So sometimes there can be just multiple indications that are all pushing in a certain direction or sort of saying or in some instances like screaming the same thing perhaps in a single chart.
是的，我完全同意这一点。
Yeah, I'd agree with that for sure.
好的。
Okay.
这是动态演示。
Here's the animated.
所以我刚刚把它向前推了两天，然后看到水星在那里停滞不动。
So I just had moved it forward two days and then saw Mercury stationary there.
对。
Right.
是的。
Yeah.
我
I
我的意思是，第六宫星体停滞通常意味着一种不会变化的疾病，而逆行则意味着复发或倒退。
mean, the rule of the sixth house stationary often means a disease that isn't shifting and retrograde means relapsing or reverting.
当然。
So absolutely.
这说得通。
That makes sense.
好的。
All right.
那我们来看第二个例子图表吧。
Let's go to our second example chart then.
这就是了。
So here it is.
你能看到吗？
Can you see that?
是的。
Yes.
对，对，对。
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
这位客户的情况要轻得多，这位客户是私下来找我的，对占星学感兴趣。
So this was a client much less severe, and this was a client who came to see me privately and was interested in looking at the astrology.
因此，这位客户给了我更强的授权，让我与他们深入讨论占星内容。
So I had a much stronger sort of mandate from this client to discuss the astrology with them.
这位客户来自2013年，长期受鼻窦问题困扰，属于慢性鼻窦炎。
And this is a client from 2013 who had ongoing sinus problems, chronic sinus problems.
所以这里上升度数是12度巨蟹座，我还得说，中天是9度双鱼座。
So we've got 12 degrees Cancer rising and I should say nine degrees Pisces on the MC.
上升宫的守护星是位于天秤座13度的月亮，而这颗月亮在本命盘中实际上是无月相状态。
The ruler of the Ascendant is the Moon at 13 degrees of Libra, and the Moon is actually void of course in this chart.
她在天秤座内没有再形成任何其他相位。
She's not making any further aspects in Libra.
当月亮进入天蝎座时，与第九宫中三度双鱼座的金星形成三合相，随后金星又与位于第十二宫宫头七度双子座的木星形成刑相。
And then when she changes sign into Scorpio, trines Venus at three degrees Pisces in the ninth house, and then Venus goes on to square Jupiter at seven degrees Gemini on the cusp of the twelfth.
所以，我再次只是从预后角度来观察这种能量的传递。
So again, I was sort of just looking at the relay in terms of prognosis.
这里有一个有趣的旁注：这又是另一个图表，其中事情的发展正如预测的那样。
So there's an interesting side note here about the So this was just another example of a chart where things played out as predicted.
当这位客户来访时，我能够告诉她，由于月亮处于空相，且有一些迹象表明药物治疗可能存在问题，因此情况在一段时间内可能不会改善，稍后我会进一步说明。
And looking at this chart when the client came, I was able to tell her that probably things wouldn't improve for a while just because the Moon is void and there were some indications of problems with medicine, which I'll go on to in a second.
但最终，我给了她一些时间预测，情况可能会通过她的女儿，或通过一位非常优秀的护士引入某种治疗而有所改善，这种帮助可能持续一段时间，但不会是永久性的。
But then eventually, and I gave her some timing for this, there would be an improvement perhaps through her daughter or perhaps through a really good nurse who might introduce her to some treatment which would help for a while, but that help would not be permanent.
其依据是月亮处于空相，短期内不会形成其他相位。
And the basis of that is the Moon is void, not going anywhere for a while.
当月亮改变星座时，它与第九宫的金星形成三合相，而金星掌管第五宫，可能代表女儿、孩子或其他相关事物。
When the Moon changed sign, it trined Venus in the ninth and Venus rules the fifth house which could be a daughter or a child or something.
但第九宫的金星也可能代表护士或一位有专业知识的医疗人员，由于金星位于水象星座，很可能是一位女性，因为金星是阴性行星，处于阴性星座。
But Venus in the ninth could also be a nurse, a knowledgeable medical person, probably female because Venus in a water sign, so it's a feminine planet in a feminine sign.
所以这可能是一种……另外，金星在这张图中与海王星合相。
So that might be a sort of And also Venus is conjunct Neptune in this chart.
所以我甚至想过，这会不会是麻醉师，或者某个对药物很了解的人？
So I even thought, Is this an anesthesiologist or some person knowledgeable about drugs or something like that?
然后金星与位于第十二宫宫头的木星形成刑相，且有接纳。
And then Venus went to square Jupiter on the cusp of the twelfth with reception.
这通常表示改善，尤其是在日间图中，木星尤其如此；但这里的木星位于双子座，处于落陷状态，且位于第十二宫宫头——这是一个衰落宫位，力量较弱，因此益处可能不会持久。
That usually shows improvement because Jupiter in a day chart particularly, but Jupiter's here in Gemini, so in detriment, and on the cusp of the twelfth house which is a cadent house, it's a bit weaker, so the benefits may not last.
第十二宫也是医疗图表中代表医院的宫位。
The twelfth house is also the house of hospitals, I would say in medical charts.
我认为这一系列事件暗示了这些可能性。
I thought that this chain of events suggested those kinds of things.
她实际上来了，但我当时给她的治疗根本没什么效果。
She actually came The treatment I gave her didn't work very well at all at the time.
我的意思是，仅从星盘来看，第六宫宫头是射手座，第十宫宫头是双鱼座。
I mean, just looking at the chart, we've got the sixth house has Sagittarius on the cusp and the tenth house has Pisces on the cusp.
所以这立刻把第六宫和第十宫联系了起来，我一向不喜欢看到这种情况，因为它暗示药物可能会产生副作用。
So immediately that ties together the sixth and the tenth, which I never like to see because it suggests that the medicines may produce side effects.
这通常暗示药物可能以某种方式引发症状，如果你看的是像化疗这类预期会产生副作用的治疗图表，这还算正常，但希望在开较温和的药物时不要出现这种情况。
It often suggests medicines may contribute to symptoms in a way, which is okay if you're looking at the chart of something that you might expect to produce side effects like chemotherapy, for example, but not hopefully when you're prescribing milder medicines.
而且还有火星位于第十宫，水星在双鱼座逆行，也在第十宫。
And also there Mars in the tenth house and Mercury in Pisces retrograde in the tenth.
因此有几点迹象表明药物方面可能存在一些问题，但最终会有帮助。
So there were a couple of indications that there might be problems with medicine, but with eventual help.
她告诉我的情况是，我认为她说最后觉得这真的挺诡异的。
And what she relayed to me, I think she said in the end that she found it really spooky.
这是她用的词。
That was her word.
因为最终发生的是，几个月后，是她的女儿告诉她找到了一位护士，她便去见了这位护士，这位护士把她介绍给了一位医院专家，这位专家给了她一种治疗，改善了她的鼻窦问题。
Because what ended up happening is a few months later, it was her daughter told her about this nurse she'd found and she went to see this nurse and this nurse referred her to a hospital specialist who gave her this treatment that improved her sinuses.
然后过了几年，她通过电子邮件联系我，说有些问题又回来了。
Then a couple of years later, she communicated with me by email that some of the issues had come back.
但我认为对她来说，这次最大的价值在于亲身体验了占星术的有效性，这才是最有用的。
But I think the biggest value to her from this was just experiencing the astrology working was the most useful thing.
在这个案例中，我并没有从星盘中获得太多能让我积极正面地改变现状的信息。
I wasn't in this instance able to get much from the chart that enabled me to turn things around constructively or positively.
所以作为草药师，这在某种程度上令人沮丧，但作为占星师，另一方面却相当鼓舞人心。
So it frustrating on one level as a herbalist, but quite of uplifting on another level as an astrologer.
明白了。
Right.
这个星盘所打破的，是某种旧有的框架。让我确认一下我的理解是否正确：第一宫代表客户，第七宫代表占星师，第十宫代表治疗，第四宫则代表结果。
So part of what this chart breaks up is an old framework, and let me know if I have this right, where the first house represents the client, the seventh house represents the astrologer, the tenth house represents the treatment, and the fourth house indicates the outcome.
对吗？
Is that right?
完全正确，克里斯。
That's absolutely right, Chris.
在医疗星盘中，一般来说，第十宫正如你所说，代表药物，第六宫代表疾病。
And in medical charts just generally, the tenth house, as you say, represents the medicine and sixth disease.
所以你要观察第一宫主星和月亮的运行，但在这个案例中，它们是同一颗行星，因为上升星座是巨蟹座，以此来判断会发生什么。
So you look at the movement of the first ruler and the Moon, but in this case it's the same planet because we've got Cancer rising to see what will happen.
它会去哪里呢？
Where does that go?
就像一场小小的行星接力赛，看最终会落在哪里。
Sort of like a little relay race of planets to see where it ends
结束。
up.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Right.
所以这就是为什么在某些情况下，比如在《判断前的考量》中，利利提醒人们要小心，如果第七宫或第七宫主星有问题，因为当有客户来找你时，第七宫代表的是你这位占星师。
So this is why in some instance, for example, like in the Considerations Before Judgment, Lilly tells people to be a little bit careful if there's something wrong with the seventh house or the ruler of the seventh house because that's representing you the astrologer if there's a client who's approached you.
是的，要么是判断失误，要么在这个案例中，作为实践者。
Yes, faulty judgment or in this case as the practitioner.
这张图中的第七宫不太理想。
Seventh house not great in this chart.
我们有土星在天蝎座逆行，掌管第七宫。
We've got Saturn retrograde in Scorpio ruling the seventh.
我的意思是，它和上升点形成三合，而且和北交点同在，我不会选它作为第七宫的主星。
I mean, it's like trining the Ascendant, okay, and it's with the North I would not choose that as the ruler of the seventh.
一个有趣的考虑是，在咨询图中，第七宫在此情况下代表了我，因为是客户来找我，既作为占星师，也作为草药师。
What's an interesting consideration is that in consultation charts, the seventh house does represent in this case because it was a client coming to see me, it represented me as the astrologer and in this case as the herbalist.
它也常常涉及第七宫的其他含义，比如可能反映客户的伴侣，或者客户的其他医生，因为我见过一些图表，当时觉得天啊，第七宫主星状况太糟糕了。
It also often speaks about the other seventh house things like it can say something about the client's partner or it can say something about the client's other doctors because I've seen charts where I've thought, Oh god, the seventh house ruler's really messed up.
我担心自己会给这位客户带来糟糕的解读。
I hope I'm not going to do a bad job for this client.
但结果发现，客户正和伴侣关系紧张，或者正和另一位医生打官司之类的情况。
But then it turns out the client's having a really hard time with their partner or it turns out that this other doctor they're currently in a lawsuit with or something.
所以，上下文真的非常重要。
So again, the context is really important.
在这里，我觉得我做得不够好。
Here, I don't think I did a great job.
所以不幸的是，我认为这个逆行的土星很可能就是我，尤其是它正好位于我的上升点上，我的上升点是天蝎座11度。
So unfortunately, I think that retrograde Saturn probably was me, particularly as it's sitting exactly on my ascendant, which is 11 degrees Scorpio.
所以很可能是我，不幸的是。
So it's almost certainly me, unfortunately.
但是，你知道，这只是
But, you know, that's
一个很好的观点，有时如果问题、焦点或他们与其它第七宫事务相关，那么它可能指的是那些事务，而不是你作为占星师本人。
a good point that sometimes if the question or the focus or they're tied up in other seventh house matters that sometimes it can be relating to that rather than you necessarily as the astrologer.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
但我的意思是，这又回到了情境的重要性上。
But I mean, so it just comes back to that sort of context thing.
所以这个星盘只是展示了如预测般展开的事件，和之前的星盘一样。
So this chart just showed the unfolding of events as predicted really, same as the previous.
但这次，客户了解占星学，并且我认为它在某种程度上帮助了她——不是物质层面，而是让她对事情有了新的视角。
But with this one, client was aware of the astrology and was sort of really, I think helped by it, not materially, but in terms of I think it just gave her a bit of a new perspective on things.
她很喜欢这个过程。
She enjoyed it.
她给我回信说，她对这个结果感到非常震惊，这很棒。
She wrote back to me and said how stunned she was by it, which was great.
然后我想展示几个基于此的危机星盘，这是一种古老的时机技术，你可以通过原星盘中某颗行星与下一颗行星之间的度数，以及那颗行星与再下一颗行星之间的度数来确定时机。
And then I just wanted to show a couple of crisis charts based on that, is an old sort of timing technique which you use sort of So you can always get the timing in a consultation chart original from chart, from the radical chart, just by how many degrees is there between this planet and the next one and how many degrees is there between that planet and the next one.
这些度数具有象征意义，可能代表几周、几个月或几年，视情况而定。
That's symbolic, the degrees equals weeks or months or years in some cases.
但你可以通过危机星盘来聚焦这段时间内的不同阶段。
But then you could zoom in on different chunks of that time by using crisis charts.
它们基本上是按照太阳或月亮回归盘的方式计算的。
So they are basically calculated in the same way that solar or lunar return charts are.
对于快速发展的疾病，你会使用月亮，绘制月亮远离原位、再远离、再远离，最后回到初始位置的星盘，期间如果病情变化迅速，还可以在这些阶段之间添加更多分段星盘。
So for a fast developing illness, you'd use the Moon and you'd do a chart for when the Moon was away and then away and then away and then back where it started and divisions in between there if you wanted charts like the condition was moving much more swiftly.
对于慢性或长期存在的状况，只需使用太阳。
For chronic or long standing conditions, just use the Sun.
因此，你会再绘制一个危机星盘，通常在太阳与原始位置相距90度时、与原始位置成对冲时、大约275度时，以及最终回到原始位置时各绘制一个。
So you cast another chart, another crisis chart typically for when the Sun was 90 degrees away from its original position, then when it was in opposition to its original position, and then sort of two seventy five degrees and then back where it was at its original position.
这样理解清楚吗？
Does that make sense?
你会为每一个时间节点绘制星盘，原理和太阳回归盘相同，但它们就像是太阳四分之一回归盘和太阳半回归盘，适用于咨询盘或病榻盘。
So you create charts for each of those times, same principle as a solar return chart, but they're like a solar quarter return and a solar half return chart for a consultation chart or a decumbiture.
我觉得这个技巧有趣的地方在于，它实际上可以推广到占星学中的其他星盘。
And what I find interesting about this technique is it is actually generalizable to other charts in astrology.
它被用于医疗占星学。
It's used for medical astrology.
虽然它已逐渐被局限在这个小领域，但你仍可以用这个技巧来更细致地观察一年中不同阶段的情况。
It's sort of fallen into that niche, but you can use this technique to sort of get a little zoom in on different quadrants of your year.
如果你做过太阳回归图，可以在三个月后再做一张图，当太阳远离出生时太阳90度时，以此来更细致地观察这一季度的运势，以此类推。
If you've done a solar return chart, you could do another chart in three months time for when the Sun was 90 degrees away from birth Sun to sort of have a little zoom in on that quadrant of the year and so on.
总之。
Anyway.
你有太阳危机图的例子吗？这和前面提到的有关吗？
And you have an example of a solar crisis chart, And is that related to the previous
这和这位客户有关。
This is related to this client.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我不在这几张图上花太多时间。
So I won't spend long on these charts.
这张和下一张是双轮图，只是把这张图叠加在原始咨询图之上。
This one and the next one is a bi wheel which just puts this one on top of the original consultation chart.
所以仅看这张图本身，我觉得谢谢，克里斯。
So just looking at this chart on its own, I think Thanks, Chris.
我以为可能会有一些改善。
I thought there might be some improvement.
我们这里有天秤座22度上升，天顶在天秤座26度。
We've got 22 degrees Sagittarius rising and 26 Libra on the Midheaven.
在这张图中，月亮——即原图中的上升星座守护星——位于第十二宫，但它正从与木星的三分相脱离，并转向与金星形成三分相。
And in this chart, the Moon, which was the Ascendant ruler from the original chart, is in the twelfth, but it's separating from a trine of Jupiter and applying to a trine of Venus.
我认为这被金星和木星的光线所包容。
I would say that's sort of contained by the rays of Venus and Jupiter.
所以，在这个时间点上，情况可能有所好转。
So that's maybe somewhat helped at this point in time.
我想，我不记得这距离初次咨询是六个月，还是更久一些。
And that was I think, I can't remember whether that was six months I think from the initial consultation or perhaps even a bit longer.
不，比那还要久。
No, it's more than that.
是六个月加四个月，差不多十个月吧。
It's six plus four, ten months, something like that.
我认为从初次咨询到现在大约十个月了。
I think it's about ten months from the initial consultation.
你可以看到，那时确实有一些改善。
You can see there was some improvement at that time.
如果我们看一下双轮图，希望这不会给只通过音频收听的人造成困扰，但我尽量把原理讲清楚。
And then if we look at the bi wheel, hope this isn't bad for the people listening only on audio, but I'll try and be clear about the principles here.
我们只是把危机时刻的星盘套在初次咨询的星盘外面，形成一个双轮图。
All we're doing is putting the solar crisis chart around the initial consultation chart, so in a bi wheel.
这里的关键是，这个危机时刻星盘的角点与初次咨询星盘的角点之间有什么关系？
And the key point here is how do the angles of that crisis chart relate to the angles of the initial consultation chart?
我认为这个危机时刻的上升点落在了初次咨询星盘的第六宫，我不太喜欢这种情况。
And I think the Ascendant of this crisis chart was in the sixth house of the initial consultation chart which I don't like very much.
月亮也落在了初次咨询星盘的第六宫。
And the Moon was also in the sixth house of the initial consultation chart.
我认为位于26度天秤的中天，与初次咨询的上升点巨蟹座形成了整宫相刑。
And I think the MC at 26 Libra was sort of in whole sign square to the initial rising sign of Cancer.
所以，是的，有一些改善，但这个人此时仍然生病。
So it's like, yes, there's some improvement, but this person is still ill at this time.
这就是我对它的解读。
That's how I'd interpret that.
但也许情况正在稍微稳定，因为月亮正受到木星和金星的三合相。
But maybe stabilizing a bit because the Moon is being trined by Jupiter and Venus.
这说得通吗？
Does that make sense?
所以这只是一个非常基础的
So it's just a really basic
问题。
question.
那之后还有一个吗？
So there's another one after that?
这只是最终的危机星盘，我认为它大致对应了关于最终暂时好转的预测。
This is just the final crisis chart which I thought showed this corresponded roughly with the prediction for eventual temporary improvement.
这个危机图是我在初次咨询两年后绘制的，当时太阳又回到了双鱼座10度，和初次咨询时的位置一致。
And this crisis chart was I think for maybe two years on from the initial consultation with the Sun back at 10 Pisces where it was at the initial consultation.
这是一个上升星座为天蝎座16度、中天为处女座4度的星盘。
It's a chart with 16 Scorpio rising and four Virgo MC.
这个星盘的上升宫主星是位于白羊座的火星，而火星正在形成对狮子座木星的三分相，但木星是逆行的。
And the Ascendant ruler of this chart is Mars in Aries, and it's that Mars is applying to a trine of Jupiter in Leo, but Jupiter is retrograde.
这很有趣。
So that was interesting.
但当你用这个危机图作为 transit 图，与初次咨询的星盘进行双轮对比时，情况就非常有意思了，因为月亮位于巨蟹座，正好在上升星座上。
But then when you do the bi wheel using this chart as a transit chart to the initial consultation chart, it's really interesting because the Moon is in Cancer in the rising sign.
所以，初次咨询星盘的上升宫主星在其本命星座中非常强盛。
So it's like the Ascendant ruler of the initial consultation chart is really strong in its own sign.
初次咨询星盘的上升点与危机星盘的上升点形成三分相，抱歉，是初次咨询星盘的上升点与危机星盘的上升点形成三分相，而初次咨询星盘的中天与危机星盘的上升点形成六分相。
The Ascendant of the consultation chart is trining the Ascendant of the crisis chart, beg pardon, is trining the Ascendant of the consultation chart and the MC of the consultation chart is in sextile to the Ascendant of the MC of the crisis chart is in sextile to the Ascendant of the consultation chart.
这并非全然乐观，因为危机星盘的上升点还落在土星和北交点上。
It's not all good because the Ascendant of the crisis is on Saturn as well as the North Node.
所以在我看来，这个星盘给出了到目前为止最积极的信号，另外非常关键的一点是，此时北交点正在行经初始咨询星盘的月亮位置。
So this chart to me suggested the most positive indication so far in terms of And also very significantly by this time that the North Node was transiting over the consultation charts Moon.
所以有两处迹象都表明，作为初始星盘上升点守护星的月亮，确实在这场危机中得到了助力。
So there were two indications of that initial Ascendant ruler, the Moon, being really helped by this crisis.
一方面是月亮落入了它的本宫巨蟹座，且位于上升点；另一方面，北交点正在行经初始咨询星盘里天秤座的月亮，再加上其他轴角位置都对本命上升点十分友好，唯独危机星盘的上升点与土星产生了联动。
The fact that the Moon was in her own sign of Cancer in the Ascendant and that the North Node was transiting over initial consultation charts Moon in Libra, as well as the other bits of the angles being friendly to the natal Ascendant, but the Ascendant of the crisis picking up that Saturn.
克里斯，我就不再多讲其他危机星盘了，毕竟这些内容确实有些复杂，我只是想展示一下这类星盘在传统占星中是如何使用的，以及如今它依然可以用来精准预判运势好转的时间点。
I'm not going to go into any more Crisis charts, Chris, because obviously these are a bit complicated, but I just wanted to show how those were used traditionally and still can be used to sort of zoom in on the timing of improvements.
但你始终都能从最初的星盘中获取基础信息。
But you can get the basic information always from the initial chart.
好的。
All right.
所以我知道你接下来还要分析另一个示例星盘。
So I know you've got another example chart next.
我这就把它投到屏幕上。
Let me put that up on the screen here.
好的。
Okay.
那么这个图表是关于什么的？
So what was this chart of?
对。
Right.
我想展示这个案例，因为它是一个非常积极的例子，说明了占星术如何在极其困难的情况下真正帮助一个人，当然我也不能确定，因为我们无法像那种九十年代的老电影《滑门》那样，看到不同的可能性展开。
So I wanted to show this one because this was a really positive example of how I think astrology really helps someone in a very difficult situation and possibly of how I can't say for sure because we can't like sliding doors, you know, like that old film from the nineties sliding doors where you have different possibilities playing out.
我们无法像那样用分屏呈现现实，但我认为这里的占星时机确实显著改善了预后。
You can't split screen reality in that way, but I think the astrology, the sort of timing here really improved the prognosis.
总之，这是一个占星问卜图表，对象是我以前工作时的上司，一家诊所的管理者，同时也是一位朋友，他被诊断出结肠癌已转移至肝脏，预后非常不乐观。
Anyway, so this is a horary chart for a client who was at one time my manager at work, a sort of clinic manager, and also is a friend who was diagnosed with colon cancer that had sort of metastasized and spread to their liver and the prognosis was really not good.
我之前曾为他们做过几次占星问卜，这次他们又请我针对这一情况做一次问卜，显然情况并不乐观。
So I'd done horaries for them before and they asked me to do a horary on the situation, which obviously wasn't great.
所以这里有几点值得注意。
So there are a few things.
这是一张上升点为25度巨蟹座、中天为28度双鱼座的星盘，月亮作为上升点的守护星位于水瓶座1度，落在第七宫。
It's a chart with 25 degrees Cancer rising, the Midheaven is 28 degrees Pisces, and the Moon, the ruler of the Ascendant is at one degree of Aquarius in the seventh quadrant house.
当然，这是第七宫的第八整宫。
Of course, it's the eighth whole sign of the seventh quadrant house.
问题是
What was
问题是什么？
the question?
问题是什么？
What was the question?
我问的问题是，我这里写下来了，但记不清了，我想大概是‘会发生什么’之类的问题。
The question I wonder, I have it written down here, can't remember, I think it was something along the lines of what will happen.
但我真的不记得具体的问题是什么了。
But I can't actually remember what the specific question was.
是专门问生死问题吗？比如‘我会死吗？’还是
Was it specifically about mortality and like, will I die or was it
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