德梅特拉·乔治回应全宫制否定论

对。

Right.

她于2004年或2005年左右因癌症去世。

She passed away of cancer in like the mid-two thousand and four or 'five or Yes.

类似这样中断了。

Something like it cut that off.

但关键是，除了你之外，另一位被派往Kepler教授希腊占星术的Project Hindsight代表，是一位研究《阿卡迪安》并专注于巴比伦传统的学者。

But the point is that somebody who read Acadian and was focused on the Babylonian tradition was, besides you, the other Project Hindsight representative that was sent to teach Hellenistic astrology at Kepler.

是的。

Yes.

谢谢你，克里斯，如此简洁地概括了。

Thank you, Chris, for putting it so concisely.

好的。

Okay.

所以这就是巴比伦的。

So that's the Babylonian.

我接下来会讲到阿拉伯传统，但我想先讨论一下与吠陀传统的联系，因为1995年发生的许多事情都发生在Project Hindsight的早期阶段。

I'm going to get to the Arabic, but I want to put some discussions about the connection with the Vedic tradition in here because so much of that happened in 1995 that was in the very early years of Project Hindsight.

在施密特和汉德开始翻译之后，他们发现了整宫制的概念，以及各种主星技法。

And after Schmidt and Hand began translating, they had come across the notion of whole sign houses, as well as various time lord techniques.

从某种意义上说，我们是在指出：看，我们在原始体系中发现了什么。

And we're in some ways claiming, hey, look at what we discovered in the original system.

许多吠陀占星师说：等等。

And many of the Vedic astrologers said, wait a second.

我们已经连续使用整宫制将近两千年了。

We've been using whole sign houses continuously for almost two thousand years.

在我们的传统中，尤其是南印度传统中，整宫制从未消失。

It never disappeared in our tradition, especially in the South Indian tradition.

整宫制一直被持续使用，至今仍是如此。

Whole sign houses were used continually and still are.

吠陀占星师还说：我们有主星系统，也就是达沙系统，让我们搞清楚到底是谁在声称什么。

And the Vedic astrologers also said, we have time lord systems, the dashas, and, like, let's get clear here on who's claiming what.

所以最初出现了一点紧张气氛。

And so initially, there is a little bit of tension that came up.

Project Hindsight 于1994年举办了第一次研讨会。

And Project Hindsight had their first conclave in the 1994.

抱歉，能不能让我快速说一下。

Really quickly, sorry, if you don't mind.

其中一件事是，他们做的第一个希腊文翻译就是保罗·亚历山大里亚斯的作品，他生活在公元四世纪，写了一本希腊语的占星学入门书。

So one of the things is like right away in the very first translation the first Greek translation that they did was Paulus Alexandrinus who lived in the fourth century and wrote an introduction to astrology in Greek.

在汉德为这本书写的导言中，他立即指出，保罗使用了星座作为宫位，并且使用的是整宫制。

And right away in Hand's introduction to this, he notes that Paulus is using the signs as houses and that he's using whole sign houses.

汉德还指出，印度传统中也使用这种方法。

And Hand also notes that this is also used in the Indian tradition.

是的。

Yes.

我看看能不能找到它

I'll see if I can put it

显示在

up on

屏幕上。

the screen.

实际上可能需要一点时间，但关键是我一会儿会试着找到这个文件并显示在屏幕上。

It actually might take, but the point is I'll try to find the file in a minute and put it up on the screen.

但重点是，他们很早就开始发现一些东西。

But the point is that very early on they start finding stuff.

关于汉德，人们常认为他只是一个突然转为传统占星的现代占星师，但在霍尔丁的讲座中，汉德实际上研究过占星的历史，他回溯并研究了像托勒密等人的不同文本。

And one of the things about Hand because Hand is characterized entirely as a modern astrologer that just went traditional overnight in Houlding's lecture, but Hand actually studied the history of astrology and he went back and he studied different texts from people like Ptolemy.

在Project Hindsight之前，他似乎就已经对印度占星学和其他内容有一定了解。

He had some awareness of Indian astrology and other things before Project Hindsight it seems like.

他们很早就开始意识到希腊占星与印度占星之间存在相似之处或平行关系。

They sort of start recognizing early on that there's parallels or similarities between Hellenistic and Indian astrology.

是的。

Yes.

由于美国吠陀占星师与Project Hindsight之间最初产生的紧张关系。

And because of the tension that created, initial tension between the American Vedic astrologers and Project Hindsight.

在Project Hindsight于西弗吉尼亚州伯克利斯普林斯举办的第二次大会中，他们邀请了许多吠陀占星师作为嘉宾，不仅来参会，还来分享吠陀占星的内容。

At the second conclave that Project Hindsight had in Berkeley Springs, West Virginia, They invited a number of Vedic astrologers as their guests, not only to attend, but also to present on Vedic astrology.

因此，上午我们进行了希腊占星的演讲。

And so in the morning, we had Hellenistic presentations.

下午则进行了吠陀占星的演讲。

In the afternoons, we had Vedic presentations.

大家开始以开放和接纳的态度，去承认、回应，并审视这两种传统之间的异同。

And there was the openness to beginning to acknowledge and respond and see the contrasts and the similarities between the two traditions in a spirit of openness and receptivity.

我记得当时有一位吠陀占星师罗妮·德赖尔，我和她正发展出一段新的友谊，还有肯·欧文斯，他后来几年成了她的丈夫，也出席了会议。

And I remember Ronnie Dryer, who's a Vedic astrologer attending that I had a new friendship developing with, and Ken Irving, who would become her husband a number of years down the line also attending.

我向他们提出了问题。

And I queried them.

比如，你对那段时期有什么印象？

Like, what do you remember from that time?

其中一个记忆是，当施密特谈到整宫制时，K.

And one of the memories was that when Schmidt was talking about Whole Sign Houses, K.

N.

N.

Rao，这位印度著名占星家，也是吠陀占星界特邀嘉宾，开始诵读吠陀文献中关于整宫制的内容。

Rao, who was a famous Indian astrologer, who was the guest of honor in the Vedic community there, began to read from a Vedic text about Whole Sign Houses.

人们感受到施密特对在希腊占星中看到的内容在吠陀占星的古代文献中得到印证感到欣喜。

And there was this sense that Schmidt had a delight that things that he was seeing in the Hellenistic were also verified in the ancient texts of the Vedic astrology.

因此，一种前所未有的合作与交流的氛围正在形成。

And so there was this incredible sense of beginnings of cooperation and exchange that were happening.

对。

Right.

所以，与其像明确宣称的那样对其他传统持封闭态度，实际上Hindsight正在积极地审视和比较不同传统，并注意到其中的相似之处，这反而帮助他们更好地理解希腊占星材料。

So instead of being not open to cross referencing with other traditions, which is what was stated explicitly, in fact, Hindsight was actively looking at and comparing the different traditions and noticing parallels, that was actually helping them to understand the Greek material better.

是的。

Yes.

我当时就在那个会议上，所以我是在报告我亲眼所见的情况。

And I was there at that conference, so I'm reporting what I saw there.

而且

And

然后在1995年9月，两个月后，丹尼斯·哈内斯和丹尼斯·拉里蒂——他们是美国数据界的重要人物——举办了一个他们半开玩笑地称为“塞多纳峰会”的活动，邀请了Project Hindsight的成员前往塞多纳。

then two months later, in September 1995, Dennis Harness and Dennis Larrity, who were among the leaders of the American data community, held what they sort of referred to jokingly referred to as the Sedona Summit, where members of Project Hindsight were invited to Sedona.

丹尼斯租了一栋很大的度假屋。

Dennis had rented a really big lodge kind of house.

许多印度占星师前往参加，还有一些对这个话题感兴趣的社区成员也出席了，大家花了三到五天时间，更深入、更专注地探讨希腊占星与印度占星之间的比较，厘清了许多在大型会议上过于技术性的细节。

A number of Vedic astrologers went and some interested a few interested members of the community also attended, where they spent three to five days in a more focused and deep discussion of the comparisons between Hellenistic and Vedic and sorting out a lot of the details that would have been too technical in the large conclave.

我当时没去，因为那段时间我正在带领一个希腊之旅，但我对此有所了解。

And I was not there because I was leading a trip to Greece during that time period, but I was aware of it.

佐勒也出席了，尽管他已不再正式参与Project Hindsight。

And Zoller also attended even though he was no longer formally part of Project Hindsight.

我们稍后可能会提到这一点，但他确实也参加了那次活动。

We may touch on that in a little bit, but he also he also attended that.

所以我们进入了与吠陀社群联系的第二部分。

So we have part two of the connection with the Veda community.

第三部分发生在次月，即1995年10月，丹尼斯·弗拉赫蒂和丹尼斯·哈内斯在西雅图主办了神圣占星会议。

And then part three occurs the next month in October 1995 when Dennis Flaherty and Dennis Harness sponsored the Sacred Astrology Conference in Seattle.

所有慧眼计划的成员都被邀请发表演讲，他们都出席了。

And all of the Hindsight people were invited to give presentations, and they all came.

关于这场会议，有一段口述历史我觉得你的听众可能会感兴趣：当时致力于体验式占星的苏西·考克斯被邀请负责周六晚的娱乐活动。

Now, a piece of oral history connected with that conference that I thought your listeners might enjoy hearing was that Susie Cox, who did a lot of experiential astrology at that point, was asked to create the Saturday night entertainment.

为此，她与罗尼·德赖尔、芭芭拉·席尔默以及我共同设计了一个仪式，旨在最终整合希腊占星与吠陀占星社群之间残留的摩擦。

And for that, she, along with Ronnie Dryer and Barbara Schirmer and myself, created a ritual in order to finally integrate any remaining friction between the Hellenistic and Vedic community.

沙克拉帕尼主持了开场祈请，我们所使用的诵咒，现场许多观众和仪式参与者都一同吟唱。

Shakrapani gave the invocation, and the chant that we used was that many people in the audience sang as did the other people in the ritual.

那是编织与修补。

It was weave and mend.

收集那些散落的碎片。

Gather the scattered fragments.

编织并修补神圣的圆圈，编织并修补。

Weave and mend the sacred circle, weave and mend.

吠陀社区有四位代表，希腊占星社区有四位代表——施密特、汉德、佐勒和艾伦·布莱克，还有四位女性主义社区的代表说：等等。

And there were four representatives from the Veda community, four representatives from the Hellenistic, Schmidt in Hand, and Zoeller, and Ellen Black, and four representatives from the feminist community that were saying, hey.

等等。

Wait a second.

那女性主义女性占星术呢？

What about feminist feminist astrology?

我们的声音也需要被听见和认可。

Our voices need to be heard and recognized as well.

芭芭拉·席尔默 unravel 了这个毛线球，于是我们就像三位命运女神一样。

And Barbara Schirmer unraveled this ball of yarn, and so, like, we're the three fates here.

她把毛线缠绕在每个人身上，将大家联结在一起，而观众们正吟唱着‘编织并修补’。

And she wrapped this yarn around everyone, sort of tying them together as the audience was singing weave and mend.

当她完成时，她请圆圈中的十二个人轻轻放下毛线，然后走出圈外，于是形成了一个完美的十二宫黄道圆圈。

And then when she was done, she asked the 12 people in the circle to just, like, lower the yarn and step outside of it, and it created a perfect zodiacal circle with the 12 houses.

那可以说是那个时刻的高潮。

And that was like the sort of culmination of that.

但那是一次美妙的体验，它让当时社区内一些彼此分裂的派别共同参与，促成了融合。

But it was a a beautiful experience that was a community participation in the bringing together of what were at that time somewhat fractitious factions within the community and facilitating an integration.

那之后，项目“远见”与吠陀社区之间的许多紧张关系似乎都缓解了。

And after that, a lot of the tension, at least between the Project Hindsight and the Vedic community, seemed to subside.

部分原因是，20世纪80年代末到90年代初，西方对传统占星术的兴趣突然复兴，与此同时，西方对印度占星术的兴趣也同步激增。

Part of it was while there was a revival of interest suddenly in traditional astrology in the West in the late '80s and early '90s, there was kind of like a parallel surge in interest in Indian astrology in the West in the '80s and '90s.

因此，出现了这两组并行的群体，它们在比较各自的传统，有时也会因争论谁的传统更古老之类的问题产生摩擦，但同时也在以不同方式走向融合。

And so that's why you have these two parallel groups that are comparing traditions but also sometimes having tensions in terms of debates about whose tradition is older or what have you, but then also that are coming together in different ways at the same time.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

好的。

Okay.

我们现在转到阿拉伯传统吗？

Should we move on to the Arabic now?

是的。

Yes.

在那场讲座中，有人告诉我，Project Hindsight 没有提及任何阿拉伯作者或对阿拉伯传统的兴趣。

So I was told in that lecture that there was no reference to any Arabic authors or interest in the Arabic tradition in Project Hindsight.

对。

Right.

我听说的也是这样。

That's what I heard as well.

而且我们看到，Project Hindsight 不仅仅是为了复兴希腊传统。

And that we see Project Hindsight was never only about the Greek reclaiming that tradition.

它还涉及拉丁传统这条线，即十二世纪被译成拉丁文的阿拉伯作者著作，现在正被译成英文。

It was also about a Latin track where Arabic authors who had been translated into Latin during the twelfth century translations were now being translated into English.

Project Hindsight 出版了马沙拉、提比里斯的奥马尔、阿布·马沙尔和肯迪的译本。

And and the project Hindsight put out translations of Mashahala, of Omar of Tiberias, of Abu Ma'shar, and al Kindi.

你打算展示一些吗？

Are you going to show some of those?

阿尔·金迪是他们通过佐勒在1993年出版的拉丁语系列中的第一个译本。

Al Kindi was the very first translation that they published with the Latin track that Zoller published in 1993.

阿尔·金迪是九世纪的阿拉伯哲学家和占星家。

Al Kindi was a ninth century Arabic philosopher and astrologer.

他们最初就是从翻译这篇文本开始的。

And that's literally what they started with was a translation of this text.

这简直可以说是完全相反了。

It's like it can't get more the opposite.

后来，他们也如你所说，翻译了乌马尔·阿尔·塔巴里。

And then later they also translated, as you said, Umar Omar al Tabari.

马沙拉是另一个由Hindsight项目翻译，之后又独立完成的文本。

Masha'allah was another text that hand translated with hindsight and then on his own.

他还自己翻译了阿布·马沙尔《太阳运行》一书的第二卷，该书原为九世纪用阿拉伯语写成。

And then also himself translated book two of Abu Ma'shar's text on solar revolutions which was written in Arabic in the ninth century.

他们实际上对其他传统表现出浓厚兴趣，并关注从巴比伦传统到希腊化传统，再到中世纪阿拉伯和拉丁传统的延续性。

They were actively actually interested in and looking at the other traditions and seeing the continuity from the Babylonian tradition to the Hellenistic tradition to the Medieval Arabic and Latin traditions.

是的。

Yes.

我不确定你之后是否已经澄清过这一点，但这引出了一个重要的问题：佐勒为‘远景计划’翻译了大约五到六部不同的文本。

And I don't know if maybe you already clarified this later, but it brings up an important point which is that Zoller translated like five or six different texts with Project Hindsight.

根据黛博拉·霍尔丁的说法，他只在‘远景计划’中待了三个月。

And according to Deborah Houlding, he was only with Project Hindsight for three months.

所以我很好奇，他怎么可能在这么短的时间内出版这么多作品。

So I'm curious how that's possible to publish all of that in such a short time.

还是说这并不属实？

Or is that not true?

他在那里待了好几年。

He was there for several years.

据我所知，他早在1992年就与佐勒有联系，但也许佐勒至少早在十年前就与罗伯特·汉建立了联系。

And certainly, he was connected with him, as far as I witnessed, as early as 1992, but perhaps Zoeller had a connection with Robert Han at least a decade earlier.

所以当罗伯特·汉对后来成为Project Hindsight的项目产生兴趣时，我确信佐勒当时已经知情并参与了这些讨论。

So when Robert Han became interested in what would become Project Hindsight, I'm sure Zohler was aware and involved in those conversations.

对。

Right.

佐勒从1980年就开始翻译拉丁文，当时他在纽约市立大学跟随理查德·拉梅学习拉丁语，拉梅是他的导师，是一位主要的

And Zohler had been translating Latin since 1980, where he learned Latin at the City University of New York under Richard LaMaye, who is his teacher, who was major

阿布·赖特学者。

scholar of Abu Right.

所以在讲座第13分钟时，霍尔丁提到佐勒在几个月内就离开了。

So at thirteen minutes, it's said in the lecture by holding that Zoller left within a matter of months.

但事实上，佐勒从1992年到1995年一直参与Project Hindsight。

But in reality, Zoller was with Project Hindsight from 1992 until 1995.

他出版了《阿尔·金迪》、《赫尔墨斯之书》第一部分、《赫尔墨斯之书》第二部分、《博纳蒂》第一、二、三、四部分。

And he published Al Kindi, the Liber Hermetas Part one, Liber Hermetas Part two, Bonatti part one, two, three, and four.

所以这是1993年至1994年间出版的七部不同著作：第一、二、三、四、五、六、七部。

So that's one, two, three, four, five, six, seven different texts that were all published between 1993 and 1994.

所以，说佐勒只在那里待了很短时间是不正确的。

So that's not true to say that Zoller was there for such a short time.

还有人说佐勒离开纯粹是因为不喜欢项目前景中施密特之类的人所做的事情。

And then there was also some things about saying that Zoller skipped out purely that he left purely due to not liking what was happening at Project Hindsight in terms of Schmidt or something like that.

我不知道你是否想深入讨论这个，但我知道当时在翻译风格等方面确实存在一些更平凡的紧张关系。

And I don't know if you want get into this, but I know there were also just some tensions over like translation styles and things like that that were much more mundane in terms of some of those reasons.

是的。

Right.

在过去二十年里，我与佐拉保持着友谊。

I had a friendship with Zola over the last twenty years of his life.

嗯，可能是他生命中的十五年。

Well, maybe fifteen years of his life.

那时，他是一个非常有主见、性格火爆的人，非常独立自主。

And at that time, he was very opinionated and fiery kind of individual that very much was independently driven.

他兴趣广泛，而且他的帕金森病正在发展并加速恶化。

He had many interests, and and his Parkinson's disease was developing and accelerating.

一方面，存在一些关于翻译问题、风格和惯例的紧张关系，他认为自己当时已经做了十五年的拉丁语翻译，你根本不可能告诉佐勒他在这方面是错的。

So there was, on one hand, some tension with translation issues, styles, conventions that he felt he, at that point, already had fifteen years in as a Latin translator that you couldn't really ever tell Zoller he was, like, wrong about something.

这正是他性格的本质。

It was just the nature of his personality.

但他还有许多其他想追求的兴趣，而他的身体健康也变得越来越脆弱。

But he also had many other interests that he wanted to pursue, and his physical health was becoming more fragile.

因此，我认为正是这三大因素共同作用，促使他离开了这个项目，能够以自己的方式追求想做的事情，因为这正是他的本性。

And so I think it was a combination of those three factors that all converge to lead him to separate from the project and be able to pursue what he wanted to do in his own way because that was his nature.

好的。

Okay.

他的某些学生因为被描绘成与‘远见计划’无关，所以被认为是错误的，但实际上他曾与他们共事过一段时间，而且还是创始人之一。

Some of his students because he's painted as being outside of hindsight, is wrong since he was with them for a while and he was one of the founders.

但我也认为，在那场讲座中，他没有被认可为实际上采用了整宫制的人，因为他的一些学生告诉我，他在课程中教授的是整宫制与阿尔卡比克制的混合使用。

But also I think he's not recognized in that lecture as actually somebody who did incorporate whole sign houses because some of his students have told me that he taught that you're supposed to use a mixture of whole sign and alkabicious in his courses.

我实际上找到了2002年出版的、当年发给学生的手册中的相关段落，里面明确提到了这一点。

And I was actually able to find some passages from his handbook that were given to students in 2002 that was published in 2002 that says this.

所以他正在定义宫位系统，他说宫位系统是将地球周围的太空划分为12个区域，每个区域对应生活中的一个或多个领域。

So he's defining house systems and he says a house system is a division of space around the earth into 12 divisions each of which corresponds to one or more area of life.

在中世纪拉丁西方的占星术中，最常使用的宫位系统是阿尔卡比提乌斯系统。

In the Medieval astrology of the Latin West, the system of houses most frequently used was that of Alcabitius.

这似乎主要是因为他在占星术数学方面的著作极为清晰明了。

This seems to have been largely because his writing on the mathematics of astrology was so lucid.

整宫制是另一种广泛使用的宫位系统，托勒密和博纳蒂都曾使用过这种系统。

Whole sign houses are another widely used house system that was used as such by Ptolemy and Bonatti.

我们将同时使用阿尔卡比提乌斯宫位系统和整宫制。

We will be using both the Alcubitius and the whole sign house systems together at the same time.

然后他继续讲解，但基本上这就是他教授学生的方式。

And then he goes on, but that's basically how he was teaching his students.

当他描述宫位划分的历史时，他将其描述为一种早期的系统——整宫制。

And when he describes the history of house division, he describes it as one of the early systems, whole sign houses.

他说，这种早期的方法因此将宫位等同于星座。

He says, This early methodology thus equates houses with the signs.

第一个宫位，I。

The first sign, I.

E。

E.

命盘所落的星座即为第一宫，其后的星座为第二宫，第三个星座为第三宫，以此类推。

The one in which the horoscope falls is the first house that makes the following sign the second house, the third sign is the third house, and so on and so forth.

所以我只是想指出这一点，因为佐勒——这在一定程度上源于他对早期和中世纪晚期传统的熟悉，当时许多作者如马沙·阿拉和萨拉·伊本·比什尔都在同时使用全宫制和 quadrant 宫制。

So I just wanted to point that out just because Zoller And this is due to partially his familiarity with the early and later Medieval tradition where many of those authors like Masha'allah and Sala ibn Bishr were following some of the later Hellenistic astrologers where they were trying to use whole sign and quadrant houses at the same time.

因此，佐勒本人也采用了这种方法。

So Zoller himself also was using that method.

对。

Right.

然后在2006年到2007年之间，佐勒回到了Project Hindsight，并在那里生活了一年。

Then between about 2006 and 2007, Zoller returned to Project Hindsight and lived there for a year.

我想那整个夏天你都在那里。

I think you were there during summer all of that time.

是的。

Yeah.

他的健康状况非常糟糕，艾伦·布洛克对他悉心照料。

His health was very difficult, and Ellen Block took meticulous care of him.

在那一年里，他与施密特进行了许多次深入的讨论。

And then the course of that year, he had many, many discussions with Schmidt.

在那段时间里，我们有一次电话交谈，他说他已经完全接受了整宫制作为占星术中一种有效的宫位系统。

And then a phone conversation we had during that time, he said that he had come to thoroughly accept the validity of Whole Sign Houses as a house system to be used in astrology.

这表明了他本人对这一问题的看法随着时间推移而发展和成熟。

And so that showed the development or maturation of his own thinking about the matter over the course of time.

是的。

Yeah.

在我与他同住在Project Hindsight的那一年里，他同时使用整宫制和 quadrant 宫位制，并试图将两者融合起来。

And in my conversations in the year that I lived in the same house with him at Project Hindsight, he was using both Whole Sign and Quadrant Houses and he was trying to find a synthesis of the two.

阿什·库什里是我最早见到成功将这两种体系实际融合的人，尤其是在年度流年法和其他类似技术方面。

Ash Kushri was one of the earliest people that I saw successfully creating a practical synthesis of the two, especially with things like annual profections and other techniques like that.

我只是知道，看那场讲座时，有一件事反复让我感到不安：讲座中有很多人如今已经去世或丧失能力，无法为自己发声，而他们的遗产正被用来支持一些我确信他们不会认同的观点。

And I just know that's one of the things that was a recurring thing that bothered me in watching that lecture that there's a lot of people in that lecture that are either now dead or incapacitated and therefore can't speak for themselves and that their legacies are kind of being hijacked for something that I know they wouldn't have approved of.

佐拉在这里，我认为绝对是其中之一。

Zola here with this I think is definitely one.

好的，谢谢克里斯把这个问题完全提了出来。

Okay, thank you, Chris, for bringing that fully to the fore.

好的。

All right.

所以，我认为你接下来想提到的最后一件事是，还有中世纪的希伯来传统。

So the last thing I think you were going to mention in this area was I mean, there was also the medieval Hebrew tradition.

对。

Right.

还有西方中世纪时期所做的大量翻译工作。

And the Western medieval of a number of translations that were done as well.

因此，Project Hindsight 的出版物涵盖了阿拉伯语、中世纪欧洲西方的文献，以及文艺复兴时期他们翻译出版的作品。

So Project Hindsight publications encompassed the Arabic, the medieval, western in Western Europe, as well as the Renaissance and the works that they published in translation.

因此，一些文艺复兴时期的作者如舍纳或拉蒙·卢尔，而早期中世纪的作者则是波纳蒂。

So some of the Renaissance authors are like Schoner or Raymond Lull, and the early medieval authors are Bonatti.

但后来他们还邀请了米拉·艾普斯坦，她将亚伯拉罕·伊本·以斯拉的几本书从希伯来语翻译成了英语。

But then they also had Mira Epstein come in and she translated a book or two of Abraham Ibn Ezra from Hebrew into English.

是的。

Yes.

因此，正是在2006年举行的那次大会中，Hindsight项目并未局限于其他历史传统：与会教职人员包括肯尼斯·鲍瑟，他讲授了巴比伦占星术和西方恒星占星传统；本杰明·戴克斯讲解了阿拉伯和中世纪占星术；肯尼斯·约翰逊介绍了印度吠陀占星传统；而罗伯特·科雷则在被紧急召回家之前，仅用一天时间做了关于文艺复兴时期莫里努斯的讲座。

So then just sort of capping off that hindsight was not open to other historical traditions, in the two thousand and six conclave that was held, The faculty included Kenneth Bowser giving talks on Babylonian astrology and Western sidereal tradition, Benjamin Dykes on Arabic and medieval astrology, on Kenneth Johnson on the Indian Vedic tradition, and Robert Coray gave a lecture on Morinus in the Renaissance before he was called away after one day for an emergency back home.

随后，比尔·约翰逊介绍了鲁德·亚尔所发展的文艺复兴人文主义传统。

And then Bill Johnson gave a presentation on the humanistic tradition developed by Rudd Yar.

因此，2006年的大会全面展示了其他历史传统的广阔领域，并将其纳入其中。

And so there was the entire expanse of the other historical traditions being highlighted and included within the Conclave in 2006.

对。

Yeah.

而这次大会由Project Hindsight主办，本质上是一场会议，所有人都飞到Project Hindsight参加为期一周的活动。

And the Conclave was Project Hindsight hosted essentially a conference and everybody flew out to Project Hindsight for a week.

我认为其中一段视频就是来自那里，Deb 从我的视频里截取了很多照片，用在了她的讲座中。

And I think that's actually what one of the videos is from that actually Deb took a bunch of pictures from my video and put them in her lecture.

但很多关于 Project Hindsight 的人物照片，包括你和我，都来自那场 2006 年大会的视频。

But a lot of the pictures of people including you and myself at Project Hindsight come from the video that's from that two thousand and six conclave.

这让我想起来，我当时住在那里，却忘了自己曾试着用你教学生用的圣经希腊文教材学习古希腊语，同时也忘了自己当时还尝试学习阿拉伯语。

And that just reminded me, I was living there, I forgot that I tried learning ancient Greek first using the biblical Greek workbook that you were teaching your students with, but I actually forgot that I tried to learn Arabic at the same time.

我学会了阿拉伯字母，并且一直在学习，因为我想要研究占时占星术在希腊化时期与中世纪传统之间的演变历程。

I learned the Arabic alphabet and I was studying it because I was trying to study the history of horary and how it had developed between the Hellenistic and Medieval tradition.

这一点得到了施密特的支持，他鼓励我学习阿拉伯语，或者至少尝试去学。

That was something that Schmidt supported and he supported me in that endeavor to learn Arabic or at least attempt to learn Arabic.

虽然比起他或你，我算不上出色的语言学者，但我还是努力去学阿拉伯语。

It turned out to not be the greatest language scholar compared to him or you, but to learn Arabic.

正是在那次大会上，他给了我人生中最早的一次演讲机会，我上台发表了关于占时占星术的历史与起源的论文，涵盖了希腊化与中世纪传统。

And then it was at that conclave that actually he gave me one of my very first speaking positions where I got up and I presented my paper on the history and origins of horary that covered the Hellenistic and Medieval traditions.

所以这也是跨传统部分的一部分。

So that was also part of the cross traditional component.

是的

Yes.

好的

Okay.

好的

Okay.

所以我认为我们已经讲清楚了这一点。

So I think in there we covered that point.

是的，我觉得是这样。

Yeah, I think so.

最后一个要提到的是本·戴克斯，因为在这个时候本进入了我们的故事，而他当时已经是位举足轻重的人物。

The last one is just Ben Dykes because Ben comes into the story at this point and he's such a towering figure at this point.

但当时他刚刚完成对邦纳蒂著作的翻译。

But he was just finishing his translation of Bonatti at this point.

而且，是的，他被安排了一个发言机会。

And yeah, he was given a speaking position.

是的，如果我没记错的话，有好几个。

Yes, actually several if I remember.

对。

Right.

施密特对本持开放态度，把他视为一位新兴的拉丁语翻译家，本最初翻译了博纳蒂的作品，但随后立即开始翻译马沙阿拉和索尔的早期阿拉伯传统著作。

Schmidt sort of opened him with open arms in terms of Ben being an up and coming Latin translator who at first translated Bonatti, but then he also immediately started translating works of Masha'allah and Sol from the early Arabic tradition.

是的，因此当本独立开展工作时，‘远景计划’也为他留出了空间，并对其他翻译者持开放态度，即使他们没有与‘远景计划’合作出版。

Yeah, and so that was kind of important as Ben kind of While he was doing his stuff independently, Project Hindsight also made room for Ben and was very open to other translators who were coming in and doing their own thing, even if they weren't publishing with Project Hindsight.

对。

Right.

现在你提到肯尼斯·约翰逊重返学校学习梵语，并翻译了一些梵文文献。

And now that you mentioned that Kenneth Johnson had gone back to school and learned Sanskrit and was translating some Sanskrit texts.

正是在这种背景下，他也被邀请分享他在印度占星术翻译方面的一些研究成果。

And it was within that sort of context that he also was invited to give the results of some of the findings of his translations of the Indian astrology.

对。

Right.

而且

And

所以，再次强调，该项目在更广泛的范围内吸纳了各种文化和历史传统，而施密特本人则始终专注于自己擅长的希腊化传统，同时对其他传统持开放态度。

so, again, there was, like, pulling from all of the different cultural and historical traditions in the larger scope of what the project was about with Schmidt himself keeping focused on what his skill set was with Greek Hellenistic, but also having wide open arms toward other traditions.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

这说得通。

That makes sense.

好的。

All right.

我们继续谈第二个问题，或者你来表述一下吧。

Moving on to the second issue, is Or maybe I'll let you phrase it.

好的。

Okay.

有几行内容

There there was a few lines

在录音中，从一开始，他们所做的是在推销一种简化版的占星术新包装，他们是在营销一种产品。

in the recording that from the very beginning, what they were doing what Project Hindsight was doing was selling a new package of simplified astrology, that they were marketing a product.

有几件事我们最好记住，可能有些听众并不了解，许多希腊占星文献虽然写于早期几个世纪，但随着希腊语的失传、罗马帝国的衰落、占星术被教会视为非法，这些材料大多被埋没在大学图书馆和私人收藏中，逐渐消失在档案里。

And a few things we it would be helpful to remember, there may be some listeners who aren't aware, that many of the Greek astrological texts, while written in the early centuries, then became buried in university libraries and in private collections with the loss of the Greek language, the fall of the Roman Empire, astrology becoming illegal and against the church, and much of this material disappeared into archives.

在中世纪时期，一些希腊原文手稿被抄写员抄录过，因为抄写是当时抄写员的冥想活动之一。

And a number of the manuscripts, original manuscripts in Greek texts, were copied over by scribes during the medieval time period because that was one of the meditation activities of of scribes.

正因如此，我们才得以保留这些文献。

And because of that, we have them.

但它们并没有被公开或广泛传播。

But then they weren't put out there in the world or circulated.

它们只是被保存在档案中。

They were just kept in the archives.

直到十九世纪末二十世纪初，比利时学者弗朗茨·库蒙特才决定开展一项宏大的学术工程：寻找所有这些希腊占星文献的手稿，并制作权威校勘本。对于古典占星学者来说，最高成就就是找到同一文本的五到六份甚至十份手稿，挑选其中保存最完好者排印出版，并在脚注中详尽记录所有异文和其他传统版本。

And it wasn't until the very beginning of the nineteen hundreds that the Belgian scholar, Franz Cumont, decided a great project for the academics to do would be to find all of these manuscripts of Greek astrological texts and make critical editions of them, which is the creme de la creme of a classical astrologer is to find, you know, five or six or 10 manuscripts of the same text and then taking the one that looks like in its best condition and setting it into type and then mentioning all of the variations and all of the other traditions in the series of footnotes.

还有许多其他欧洲学者加入了这一项目，他们花了五十年时间编纂了《希腊占星手稿目录》（CCAG），将希腊化时代最重要的占星文本以印刷形式呈现，使其便于翻译。

And a number of other European academics joined him in this project, and it took them fifty years to create the CCAG, the catalog of Greek astrological codices, which took the most important astrological Greek text of the Hellenistic era into a print form where it was accessible to be translated.

但这些学者懂希腊语，而脚注是用拉丁文写的。

But these scholars knew Greek, and the footnotes were in Latin.

他们懂拉丁语。

They knew Latin.

他们对翻译这些文本毫无兴趣，因为大多数情况下他们并不真正关心占星术本身。

They had no interest in translating it because they were not interested in the astrology per se for the most part.

他们感兴趣的只是如何编纂这些批判性版本。

They were interested in the process of developing these critical editions.

因此，尽管当时社区中已有一些古代占星文本在流传，但希腊化时期的主要文本在后来才被系统整理出来。

And so it while there were some ancient astrological texts in circulation in the community, the bulk of the Hellenistic were later in their formulation.

几十年后，詹姆斯·霍尔登开始推动，随后“前景计划”将这些文本翻译成英文。

And then it was on several decades later that James Holden started and then Project Hindsight started bringing them into English translation.

在此之前，这项工作根本无法完成，因为这些文本本身的编排方式根本无法轻易获取。

And so it couldn't have been done before this time because the but the arrangement of the text themselves simply was not there in an easily accessible manner.

而这一点正是关键：这些文本将被翻译成英文，这一愿景让占星界无比兴奋，因为我们意识到自己拥有悠久而丰富的历史。

And this was the fact that they would be translated, that vision was so wildly exciting to the astrological community that we knew we had a long and rich history.

但大多数情况下，除了少数例外，我们大多数人根本不清楚这究竟意味着什么。

But for the most part, with a few exceptions, most of us had no idea of what it actually entailed.

因此，当Project Hindsight宣布要将我们整个占星体系的基础文献翻译成英文时，我们首次在两千年来得以窥见占星术的起源，整个社群都充满了激动与热情。

And so when Hindsight announced that they were going to bring our whole foundation into English translation, that we would be seeing for the first time in two thousand years how it was that astrology began, there was such a sense of excitement and enthusiasm.

某种程度上，这正是那段初期岁月所凝聚的能量。

And it was, in some ways, this was the energy around the beginnings.

所以我想讲的另一个故事是，Project Hindsight于1993年4月在NORWAC大会上正式公布。

So another story I want to tell is that hindsight was Project Hindsight was announced in April 1993 at NORWAC.

同年夏天，我记得天气很热，Ray Merriman在密歇根州的一所大学校园组织了一场ARC会议。

And then sometime that summer, I remember because it was hot outside, There was an ARC conference organized by Ray Merriman at a college campus in Michigan.

我们都住在宿舍里。

And we all slept in the dorm rooms.

我们大多数人待在宿舍里，房门都敞开着，因为大家在走廊里来来往往，进出彼此的房间，互相拜访、交流，做着占星师们重逢时总会做的事。

And most of us were up in the dorms and we had the doors to our rooms open because everyone was walking up and down the hallway and in and out of each other's rooms, and we were visiting and connecting and doing what astrologers do when we see each other.

我在走廊里碰到了罗布·汉兹，他对翻译中发现的内容感到非常兴奋。

And I bumped into Rob Hands in the hallway, and he was so excited about what they were discovering in the translations.

于是他把我拉进了施密特所在的房间。

And so he pulled me into the room in which Schmidt was.

施密特坐在下铺床上，面前放着一把椅子，上面摆着他的电脑。

And Schmidt was sitting on a lower bunk bed, and he had, like, a chair in front of him on which he had his computer.

他正忙着翻译波利斯，一边打字一边做翻译。

And he was busily, like, translating polis and typing in his translation.

我们进去时，他站起来，双手高高举起。

And we came in and, like, he got up with his hands out raised.

你不敢相信我刚在保卢斯身上发现的东西，然后开始大声讲述起来。

You don't believe what I just discovered in Paulus, and began to recount it out loud.

那种充满整个房间的能量，是一种纯粹而彻底的喜悦。

And it was a feeling of utter and pure joy that was the the energy in that room.

多年后，我意识到，当你在翻译一些可能数百年都没人再看过的文本，而你却是第一次看到它时，那种难得的愉悦感是多么特别。

And years later, I recognize myself the rarified kinds of pleasure when you're translating something that perhaps someone hasn't looked at in hundreds and hundreds of years, and you're seeing it for the first time.

那种席卷我的惊人情感。

The incredible emotion that takes that took me over.

我可以回头看到，那一刻在施密特和罗布·汉兹身上也存在着这种情感。

And I could look back and see that in Schmidt and Rob Hands at that moment.

他们所追求的正是这种感受，而不是去开发一个可以打包销售、赚钱的产品。

And that was what they were riding on rather than coming up with a product that they could package and sell and make money.

这并不是说他们不需要钱。

Now it's not to say that they didn't need money.

他们，你知道的，收取了订阅费。

They, you know, took subscriptions.

他们收到了捐款。

They got donations.

他们获得了资助，以支持必须完成的工作。

They got grants in order to support the work that had to be done.

艾伦·布莱克将她家族的全部遗产和祖宅都捐了出来，以支持这项事业多年。

Ellen Black gave over her whole inheritance in her family home and heritage to be able to support the project in the course of the years.

而这一点，所有全职占星师都明白，如果我们全职做占星，就必须做些事情来赚钱维持生计。

And that as all of us who are full time astrologers know, like, we've gotta do something to make money to survive if we're doing astrology full time.

因此，听到有人把最初阶段描述为纯粹是为了包装产品，尤其是他们甚至在开始翻译之前就已经决定好要把它当作一个赚钱的销售机会，我感到非常不满，这一点我们待会儿会详细讨论。

And so I was offended at hearing the characterization that at the beginning, it was all about packaging a product, especially we'll get into this, that they had decided upon before they even began translating as a money making opportunity to simply sell.

是的。

Yeah.

让我直接引用一下原话，这样我们能清楚知道我们在回应什么。

Let me actually quote it just so we're clear what we're responding to here.

但在讲座的某个时刻，黛博拉·霍尔丁说：‘甚至在第一个文本发布之前，他们就已经在给我们答案了，说这就是每个人在做的事，而他们并没有提出问题。’

But at one point in the lecture Deborah Houlding says, Even before the first text was released, they were giving us answers on this is what everybody was doing and they weren't asking questions.

他们是在推销一种新的占星包装。

They were selling a new package of astrology.

它被简化了，所有的相位都简化了。

It was simplified, all the aspects.

根本不存在‘容差度’这种东西。

There's no such thing as orbs.

从一个星座到另一个星座之间不存在这样的相位。

There's no such aspects from one sign to the other.

根本不存在宫头这一说。

There's no such thing as house cusps.

它们只是十二个星座。

They're just 12 signs.

你只需要会数到十二，就可以轻松跟上这个体系了，她轻描淡写地说道。

You do need to know how to count to 12 and you can pretty much get on board with the system, she says flippantly.

然后她说，这些内容是有教学体系的，确实存在教学。

And then she says, The teachings, and there were teachings.

我不确定我的记录是否准确，但上面写着，这原本是一个翻译项目，但实际上却是社区小组。

And I don't know if my transcript is good here, but it says it was set up as a translation project, but it was the community groups.

主要是大家围坐在罗伯特·施密特脚下，他像导师一样，对各种问题给出自己的哲学解读。

It was mainly the feeling that there was a sense of everybody sits around Robert Schmidt's feet and he, guru like, gives his philosophical slant on things.

这些观点不容讨论，这个项目也不是为了回答问题或探索问题而设立的。

They were not up for discussion and this wasn't a project set up to answer questions or even explore questions.

这个项目设立的目的是为了给当时我们还不知道该问什么问题的阶段赋予绝对的意义。

It was set up to give absolute meaning to what was happening at a stage where I would say we don't know what questions we should be asking at that time.

他们是在推销一个套装，但她描述的方式是，这是一个在首次翻译出版之前就已经定好的预设方案。

They're selling a package, but her portrayal of it is they're selling a package and it's a predefined thing that they came up with before the first translation was published.

但任何熟悉《前景计划》的人都知道，当你拿起其中任何一份翻译时，就会明白这些翻译最初都只是临时性的，他们计划先做初步翻译，之后在一切理清后再推出一套最终的翻译版本。

But one of the things anybody familiar with Project Hindsight knows, the moment you pick up one of those translations is that all of those translations were supposed to be preliminary for one, that they would do initial translations and then later at some point they were going to come back and do a final translation series once they had everything figured out.

但如果你坐下来仔细阅读这些翻译，会发现无论是译者施密特还是编辑汉德，都为每一份翻译撰写了引言和评论。

But what's amazing about the translations if you sit down and read them is that both Schmidt the translator and Hand the editor write an introduction and commentary to each one.

此外，他们在翻译全文中还添加了大量脚注。

Then they have footnotes throughout the translation.

你可以从这些文本中看到他们思想的演变过程，某些内容最初只是初步的观察或推测，后来在系列中其他翻译里，他们又进行了修改，甚至用括号标注某些词或翻译规范为临时性处理。

And you can see in these texts the evolution of their thinking and how there's certain things that are like preliminary observations or speculations that they then change later in one of the other translations later in the series where they have some even words or translation conventions bracketed as provisional.

有时他们会修改这些内容，有时则直接保留希腊原文，因为他们尚未确定如何将这些术语准确译为英文。

Sometimes they'll change them or sometimes they'll leave just the Greek word in the text because they aren't sure yet what to translate that term as into in English.

之后，他们又尝试了不同的翻译规范。

And then later they'll try different conventions.

在整个翻译系列的印刷版本中，你可以清楚地看到他们思想的整个过程、演变与发展。

There was this whole clear process and evolution and development in their thinking that you can see throughout the translation series in print.

我觉得，正是因为许多这些译本已经绝版，而且现在大多数人根本没有读过它们，这种说法才可能成立，因为这恰恰与实际情况相反。

I feel like it's only in the absence of the fact that so many of those translations are out of print and that most people haven't read them at this point, that that sort of statement can be made at all because that's just sort of the opposite of what was happening.

确实如此。

That's exactly true.

在我刚开始翻译时，我常常不确定如何翻译某个术语、词语或概念。

In my own experience with translating at the beginning, it you're not always sure how to translate a certain term, a word, a concept.

我记得当时遇到这种情况，就会问我的教授：这里到底是什么意思？

And I remember encountering that and asking my professors like, what what does this mean here?

他们也不确定，于是我会去联系施密特。

And they weren't sure I'm contacting Schmidt.

他会说：让我想想，然后上楼去思考，可能几天或几周后才会回来给我答案。

And he would say, let me think about it and go up to his room and maybe days or weeks come back, give me an answer.

但随着你继续阅读文本，对整体语境的理解逐渐加深，当你再次遇到这个词时，就会恍然大悟：哦，原来他们指的是这个。

And but as you go on in the text and your own understanding of the larger context develops, you come across that term again and go, oh, this is what they're talking about.

就像现在，我明白了。

Like, now I get it.

然后你回头去看开头，突然间，它就在那里了。

And you go back to the beginning and all of a sudden, like, there it is.

它明明就摆在你面前，但你还没有足够的思维成熟度或理解力去认出它。

It's staring you at your face, but you didn't have the maturation of your own thinking or understanding to recognize it as such.

所以这是一个不断演变的过程。

And so it's a constantly evolving process.

而施密特本人也完全投入其中，正如他所说，最初的那些译文都是临时性的，他会回头修改。

And it was one that Schmidt was totally engaged with himself, as he said, the initial ones he said were always provisional, that he would go back.

当我听到有人说，从一开始他们就已决定好一切内容，固定不变时，我们所有人都忍不住笑了。

And when I heard that it was, like, fixed from the beginning that they had decided ahead of time what everything was going to be, like any of us started laughing.

对于我们这些经历过施密特早期岁月的人来说，他反复改变主意的次数多到让我们发疯。

And for all of us who lived through those early Schmidt years, it was like how many times he changed his mind, like, began to make us crazy.

因此，我们都明白，希腊化占星术的发展对他而言是一个进行中的工作，对未来的占星师们也是如此。

And so there's an understanding that the development of Hellenistic astrology was for him a work in progress and continues to be for those astrologers ahead of us.

而且作为社群，我们理解这一过程非常重要。

And that it's important that we as a community understand that process.

第二点是，他所做的这项工作并非在完全孤立的状态下进行，而是持续与他人进行讨论。

Now the second point is that this work that he did was not done in total isolation without continual discussion with other people.

你是在放弃产品线吗？

Are you moving on from the product line?

是的，我认为我是在放弃‘它从一开始就是固定不变的’这种想法。

Yeah, I think I'm moving on from the idea of it was fixed from the beginning as a product.

好吧，它根本不是产品，也并非从一开始就是固定的。

Okay, it was not a product and it was not fixed from the beginning.

在我们继续之前，让我最后澄清一下关于产品的问题，因为最近几天看了那个争论后，我一直在反复思考。

Let me clarify one last thing on the product point then before we move on because it's something I've been thinking a lot about the past few days after seeing that argument.

我回过头去反思时想到的一件事是，1992年或1993年，黛博拉·霍尔丁创办了《传统占星师》杂志，通过订阅方式发行。

One the things I was thinking about looking back and reflecting on was in 1992 or 1993, Deborah Houlding founded The Traditional Astrologer magazine which was sold through subscriptions.

她还创办了一家出版公司Asella，专门重新出版历史文献的译本——她本人并不是译者，而是会寻找其他学者或占星师已完成的译文，并通过她的公司重新刊印。

And she also founded a sell at publications where she went back and she wasn't a translator herself, but she would find translations that other academics had done or other astrologers had done of historical texts and she would reprint them through her publication company Asella.

所以，例如，我认为是在1993年或1986年，她出版了大卫·平格里的多罗西厄斯译本。

So for example, I think it was in 1993 or 1986 she published David Pingree's translation of Dorotheus.

她据称获得了出版多罗西厄斯英文译本的权利，并通过她的公司发行。

She got the rights supposedly to publish the English translation of Dorotheus and she published it through her company.

所以那是一部早期的希腊化时期文本。

So that was an early Hellenistic text.

我认为他们还重新出版了布拉姆翻译的费尔米库斯·马特努斯以及其他一些文本。

I think they also republished Brahm's translation of Firmicus Maternus and a number of other texts.

因此，某种程度上，这里的问题在于，‘视野计划’就像是她的竞争对手，做着同样的事情；而且，只要‘视野计划’通过销售译本赚钱，她也在做同样的事。

So in a way, part of the issue here is that Project Hindsight was like kind of a competitor to her and doing the same thing, but also to whatever extent Project Hindsight was making money from selling translations or what have you, she was doing the same thing.

所以，如果把‘视野计划’描绘成一个营利项目，而同时在英国她也在做同样的事，那这就存在某种虚伪性。

So there's a certain level of hypocrisy there if Project Hindsight is being framed as like a money making venture because they're being supported by sales of their translations and stuff when the same thing's happening there in The UK.

我只是想在我们继续讨论‘视野计划’只是一个产品的问题之前指出这一点，因为这属于历史背景的一部分，是的。

And I just wanted to point that out before we move on from the Project Hindsight was just a product thing because it's part of the historical context Yes.

是的。

Of Yeah.

对。

Right.

我还想补充一点，那就是发现我们历史根基时所感受到的灵感、热情与兴奋。

And I wanted to add the inspiration, the enthusiasm, the sense of excitement of uncovering the foundations of our history.

我认为这就是当时最核心的部分。

That's what I saw as being foremost in what was going on.

但我们都得生活，都得吃饭。

And we all have to live and we all have to eat at the same time.

是的。

Yeah.

而且每个人都能感受到这种情绪，因为公平地说，黛博拉·霍尔丁对传统占星术充满热情，英国那些热衷于占卜、利利，并参加奥利维亚·巴克莱课程的人，也都对回归传统充满热情。

And it's like everyone was feeling that because to be fair, Deborah Houlding was excited about traditional astrology and all the people in The UK that were super into horary and Lilly and that were taking Olivia Barclay's course were excited about going back to the tradition.

这也催生了约翰·弗劳利等人物，他们后来都成为了重要的传统占星师。

And that's where you get figures like John Frawley and other people that also went on to have major careers as traditional astrologers.

在80年代末和90年代初，空气中弥漫着一种普遍的兴奋感，世界各地的人们不知为何都在做着类似的事情。

There was just this general excitement in the air in the late 80s and early 90s and everybody was kind of doing a similar thing for some reason in different parts of the world.

好的。

All right.

那么我们继续下一部分，你提到了她的这句话或对其的总结。

So moving on to the next part, you had this quote from her or summary of it.

这是总结，还是原话？

Is this a summary or is it an exact quote?

如果需要，我可以把原话找出来。

Because I can pull the exact quote out if needed.

我不记得了。

I don't remember.

好的，我来找一下，我不想表述错误。

Okay, let me find it because I don't want to misstate anything.

这有点像是对几段内容的概括，好吧。

It's kind of a synopsis of a few different Okay.

基本上就是这几段话，我读了其中的第一部分，讲的是Project Hindsight这个项目从一开始就有了对所有问题的绝对答案，甚至在第一批文本发布之前就已经如此，等等。

Basically it's this few paragraphs where I read the first part of it where it was like Project Hindsight is that this project started right from the beginning with absolute answers to everything even before the first texts were released, etc.

是的，我想我已经写过这些了。

Yeah, I guess I've already written all that.

好的。

Okay.

对。

Right.

不是在提问或探索问题。

Not asking or exploring questions.

教学是不容讨论的。

Teaching is not open to discussion.

所以你的总结是，Project Hindsight 从一开始就决定了所有事情。

So in your summary was Project Hindsight had decided everything from the beginning.

其意图是在第一份文本发布之前就提供绝对的答案，不提问也不探索问题，而且这些教义本身也不容讨论——这准确概括了我之前读过的那三段内容。

There's an intent to provide absolute answers even before the first text was released and not asking or exploring questions and that the teachings themselves were not open to discussion, which is an accurate summary of the three paragraphs I read earlier.

首先，我们讨论过随着成熟和对占星术理解的加深，人会改变自己的想法。

And we did speak, first of all, about changing one's mind as one matures one's understanding astrology.

第二点是，不提出或探索问题，教义也不允许讨论。

The second point to that is that not asking or exploring questions, the teaching's not open to discussion.

接下来我想强调这一点。

And that's what I want to bring out next.

好的。

Okay.

确实，施密特花了很多时间独自在楼上房间翻译，但他同时也一直在与住在屋内、附近以及其他前来拜访并短期居住的众多占星师分享、讨论并推敲这些概念。

And that well, it is true that Schmidt spent a huge amount of time by himself in his upstairs room Translating, he was also in a continual process of sharing and discussing it and working out the concepts with both other astrologers who lived in the house, who lived nearby, the many who came to visit and stay with them for various periods of time.

多年来，他们热情地欢迎众多占星师到家中做客，慷慨地招待他们，鼓励他们想住多久就住多久，而后廊上的讨论更是成了传奇。

There was a huge community over the years of the welcoming of astrologers into their home, of being very gracious hosts, encouraging them to stay as long as they wanted, and that the allusion to the back porch discussions was being legendary.

我花了很多时间在后廊上，与许多占星师彻夜长谈，讨论翻译过程中浮现的各种想法，大家表达自己的理解，倾听施密特的观点，对某些论点提出质疑，并提出尖锐的问题，最终共同形成了对这些内容的理解。

So I spent a lot of time on the back porch with many astrologers talking into the wee hours of the night as all these different ideas that were coming up in the translations were talked about and people offering their own understanding of it and listening to what Schmidt had to say and challenging him on certain points and asking difficult questions as collectively there was the emergence of an understanding.

我记得施密特曾被艾伦·怀特挑战，怀特用他那响亮而直率的声音说：‘施密特，你这根本就是胡说八道。’

And that Schmidt I remember, you know, Schmidt being challenged by Alan White who, you know, in his very loud and brash, you know, voice would say, oh, Schmidt, like, you're full of it here.

然后逼迫施密特重新思考，让他表达得更清晰，回去修正自己前后矛盾的地方。

And then pushing Schmidt to rethink it, to become more articulate, to go back and not contradict himself.

因此，我看到他们理解的发展是一个由占星师群体共同参与的过程。

And so I saw that the development of their understanding was a process shared among a community of astrologers.

这是一种持续不断的探究、反思、辩论与修订。

There was a continual inquiry of reflection of debate and revision.

我记得在屋里和后廊见过的一些人，我简单列一下：罗伯特·汉德、罗伯特·索拉尔、艾伦·怀特、比尔·约翰逊、埃伦·布莱克，以及来自克罗地亚的斯拉文·斯洛比尼亚克。

And some of the people I remember seeing in the house and on the back porch, and I'll just I'll just put together the small lift steer, was, of course, Robert Hand, Robert Solar, Alan White, Bill Johnson, Ellen Black, Slavyn Slobiniak from Croatia.

罗伯特·格罗斯，他是国会图书馆的图书管理员，住在同一条街上，是戴尔·纳尔逊、约瑟夫·克兰、玛丽莲·劳伦斯、柯蒂斯·曼·沃伦、迈克尔·伊尔温、玛吉·麦克弗森、凯尔·皮尔斯、肯尼思·约翰逊、本·戴克斯、肯尼思·鲍瑟、珍妮特·乔罗夫斯基、麦克登·贝斯特、克里斯·布伦南、你本人、斯泰西和梅雷迪思的支持者，但后两人的姓氏我想不起来了。

Robert Gross, the he was the librarian from the Library of Congress who lived on the same street and was a supporter of the project of Dale Nelson, Joseph Crane, Marilyn Lawrence, Curtis Mann Warren, Michael Earlywine, Maggie McPherson, Kyle Pierce, Kenneth Johnson, Ben Dykes, Kenneth Bowser, Jeanette Jorowski, McDagen Best, Chris Brennan, yourself, Stacy and Meredith whose last names I can't remember.

这还只是我容易想起的那些人，不包括那些来参加研讨会但参与了深入讨论的人。

And that's just among the ones I can easily recall that are not part of people who also came for conclaves, but were part of the intense discussions.

我知道还有很多其他人在我没在场的时候也来过。

And I know that there are many others who were there when I wasn't.

所以这些名字我没有列入，但这些都是我亲眼见过的人。

So those names I haven't included, but these are the people I saw.

因此，就是这样。

And so there was that.

在项目初期，随着互联网刚刚兴起，还有一群电子邮件列表，每个人都会订阅，然后有人发表评论，这条评论就会发送给列表上的所有人。

And then there was also at the beginning of the project, as the Internet first came on was the group email lists where everyone would subscribe and then someone would comment and that comment would go to everyone else on the list.

有时候，你每天会收到50封这样的邮件，都是这些对列表感兴趣并已订阅的人之间持续进行的讨论。

And sometimes you get 50 emails a day of this ongoing discussion that was happening among those people, interested and signed up for the list.

我想再提几件事，但我想把话筒还给你，也请你分享一下你亲历那里、见证众人来来往往、积极参与讨论的感受。

So a few other things I wanna say, but I wanna give it back over to you to also share your impressions of having lived there and witnessed all of the people coming in and out and staying and being engaged in discussion.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，参与的人实在太多了。

I mean, there were just so many different people that were involved.

我知道施密特融入了各种不同的观点，也进行了许多讨论，而且他乐于接受讨论。

I know that Schmidt incorporated different things and there were many discussions and he was open to discussion.

尽管他对某些事情可能会形成非常坚定的看法，但他通常不会压制关于这些事情的讨论。

And while he could develop very firm opinions about different things, he didn't typically try to squelch discussions about things.

相反，总是有许多不同的观点被认真对待，周围也总有各种人贡献着不同的想法。

But instead there was a lot of different viewpoints that were always being entertained and a lot of different people that were around contributing different ideas.

施密特的一个有趣之处在于，他总是会倾听，并且总是开放地听取别人的意见。

That was one of the interesting things about Schmidt is that he would always listen and he would always listen openly to people.

是的，这确实是一个非常重要的观点。

Yeah, and I don't know, it was a really important point.

但你最后提到的一点真的很重要，那就是在互联网早期，也就是1995年、1996年左右，他们还举办了一个讨论论坛。

But that's really important thing that you said at the end though is that they also hosted a discussion forum in the early days of the internet in the mid 1990s in like 1995, 1996.

与那种认为他们不欢迎讨论或类似行为的说法相反，实际上正是他们建立了一个电子邮件讨论列表，里面持续进行着关于各种主题的活跃辩论和交流。

So contrary to the assertion that they weren't open to having discussions or anything like that, they were the ones that actually had like an email discussion list where there were active debates and discussions about different topics taking place.

我记得1996年时那个电子邮件群组还在运行。

And I have memories in the 1996 of that email group list that was going on.

那年夏天，我住在佐勒尔家在纽约州新帕尔茨的房子里，因为那是我获得本科学位的地方，而我还需要修完两门课，才能满足次年进入俄勒冈大学项目的先修条件。

That summer, I was staying at Zoeller's house in New Paltz because that's where I got my undergraduate degree, and I needed these two more classes to complete the prerequisites for me to start my program at the University of Oregon the next year.

所以我只是去那里完成这些课程。

So I just went there to do that.

在那段时间里，我的电脑也加入了这个邮件列表。

And in the course of that time, my computer was part of this list.

你知道吗，每来一封新邮件，机器就会叮一声。

You know, the machine would ding every time a new email came in.

所以这种情况每天持续好几个小时，包括晚上。

So that was happening, like, for hours every day and evening.

我们看到讨论变得越来越激烈、对抗性增强，甚至出现了人身攻击。

And we saw the discussions become increasingly contentious and adversarial and flaming.

我记得当时对彼此互相扔出来的言辞感到震惊。

And I remember being shocked at what was being hurled back and forth.

我至今还记得，我对佐拉说：天哪。

And I have that memory that I'd say, you know, to Zola, oh my goodness.

你简直不敢相信刚才有人说了什么。

Like, you don't believe what someone what was just said.

你知道的，快过来看看这个。

Like, you know, come look at this.

那场面非常激烈。

And it was very intense.

而现在发生的一些分歧，当时就已经存在了，其根源可以追溯到九十年代初。

And some of the disagreements that are happening now were happening then, and their roots go back to the early nineties.

因此，我们目前看到的这场辩论，至少从那时起，已经以不同的形式持续了三十年。

So part of what we're seeing in this debate currently happening has been going on for thirty years now in different iterations, at least since then.

是的。

Yeah.

更具体地说，我希望这样说没问题：施密特和霍尔丁曾经在Project Hindsight设立的邮件列表上发生过一些传奇性的激烈争论。

And to be more specific, and I hope it's okay to be that Schmidt and Houlding had some legendary blowout debates basically over that email list set up by Project Hindsight.

而许多现在的争论其实正是对这两人早期辩论的重复和再现，三十年后依然如此？

And that's where a lot of this goes back to is some of those early debates between the two of them are still being reiterated and played out again today, like thirty years later?

是的。

Yes.

结果，他们关闭了这个邮件列表，因为这种言辞公开传播实在不合体统。

And then as a result of that, they closed down the list because it simply wasn't seemly for that kind of languaging to be public.

而且当时邮件列表普遍存在这种现象，‘火药味’十足的争论对社区来说并不是好事。

And as the email lists often did at that time, the whole notion of flaming wasn't a good thing for the community.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

因此，了解霍尔丁和施密特之间个人恩怨的背景非常重要，因为我认为本周讲座中所讲述的关于‘前景计划’的许多历史都被扭曲、歪曲，甚至完全虚构了，部分原因在于‘前景计划’的创始人之一与本周主讲人之间长期存在分歧。

So that's important context just in terms of the personal animosity between Houlding and Schmidt because I think a lot of the history of Project Hindsight that was told in the lecture was twisted and distorted and sometimes just completely fabricated in an inaccurate way partially because there's this long standing dispute between one of the founders of Project Hindsight and the person that gave that lecture this week.

所以，这使得整个历史变得相当复杂，因为我当时并不在场，但我从很多人那里听说过关于那段时期的传闻，后来当我于2000年代中期进入这个社群时，才意识到自己无意中卷入了其中。

So that's kind of a tricky thing in terms of the history of all of this because I wasn't around for that, but I still heard legends of it from lots of different people and then realized that I had walked into it at some point later when I do come into the community in the mid 2000s.

有时，年轻的占星师刚进入这个社群时，会无意中卷入那些已经持续多年的旧日纷争。

And that sometimes younger astrologers when they come into the community, they accidentally get caught up in some of these old disputes that have been going on between people for years.

当你不了解这些背景时，很容易就站到某一方阵营，或者根据某一方人士的说法而形成某种看法。

And sometimes when you don't know that context, it's easy to end up in one camp or the other or end up thinking one thing or another based on what people that are on one side or another are telling you.

是的。

Yeah.

但这也证明了当时他们确实愿意进行讨论，而且确实发生过许多对话。

So that though is just evidence though that they were open to discussion and there were discussions happening.

只是并不是每个人都喜欢项目‘ hindsight ’得出的结论，这有时在社群中制造了紧张，例如，有些人不喜欢项目‘ hindsight ’声称整体宫位制在古代占星中存在。

It's just that not everybody liked the conclusions that Project Hindsight was finding and that was sometimes creating tensions in the community because for instance, sometimes people didn't like that Project Hindsight was saying that Whole Sign Houses existed in ancient astrology.

我记得在早期教授希腊占星术时，人们对于重新计算星盘和采用整体宫位制感到震惊。

I remember in the early years of teaching Hellenistic astrology and how horrified people were at the notion of redoing their charts and whole sign houses.

这引发了各种反应，确切地说，引发了两种反应。

And that created all kinds well, it created two things.

一方面，人们会说：我不希望你质疑我赖以建立事业和声誉的宫位系统是否有效。

On one hand, it's like, I don't want to hear that you're questioning the validity of the health system I've been using and built my career and reputation on.

我不希望听到这种说法。

Like, I don't want to hear that.

当你试图向他们教授整体宫位制时，人们就会这样对你说。

That's what people would say to you.

当你试图向他们教授整体宫位制时，他们就是这么对你说的吗？

That's what they would say to you when you tried to teach them the Whole Sign Houses?

当然，这是一种反对意见。

Well, that was certainly one kind of objection.

另一个问题是它引发了身份危机。

The other was that it created identity crises.

因为如果你原本以为自己有好多行星落在第十一宫，觉得‘太好了，朋友和团体都是我的’，结果突然间这些行星全跑到了第十二宫，开始面对你的痛苦和忧伤，这对很多人来说很难接受，尤其是当他们不喜欢自己的星盘在整宫制系统中发生如此变化时。

Because if you thought you had, you know, all these planets in the eleventh house and you were like yay friends and groups, and then all of a sudden they fell into the twelfth house and you're dealing with your suffering and sorrows, that was difficult for people to take in and consider if they didn't like the way their chart shifted in a Whole Sign House system.

因此，从这个角度来看，也出现了抵触情绪。

And so there was resistance coming from that point of view as well.

比如，我知道我是第十二宫的人，不是第十一宫的人。

Like, if you know, I'm a twelfth house person, not an eleventh house person.

那我到底是谁？

Like, who am I?

因此，这些教义在社群中引发了多层次的强烈而复杂的反应。

And so that there were levels of how it was that these teachings stirred up strong and difficult reactions in the community.

而对于另一些人来说，这是一种顿悟：哦，原来我的人生，现在终于清晰了，这个新星盘完全把我生活的本质呈现了出来，我清楚地知道这就是真相，但旧的星盘从来没能反映这一点。

And then yet for others, it was the realization, Oh, like, now my life, like, totally comes like, this new chart completely puts my life into a focus that I know is the focus, but the chart, like, the old chart never reflected.

所以，也存在这种类型的回应。

So there was also there was that kind of response as well.

但大多数大一新生，你走进讲座时会问：‘有多少人了解整体宫位系统？’

But most first years, you go into a lecture and you'd say, you know, how many people know about Whole Sign Houses?

可能只有一两个人或三个人会举手。

And maybe one or two or three people might raise their hands.

到了2000年代末，你走进教室时，一半到三分之二的学生都会举手。

And by the end of the 2000s, you would go in and half to two thirds of the room would raise their hands.

因此，我们确实看到在整个十年间，占星界对这一概念的认知逐步提升。

And so we did see the progressive awareness develop in the astrological community over the course of that decade.

没错。

Right.

我记得我学过这个。

I remember I learned it.

我最早是在2000年代中期，大约2004年左右，通过阅读罗布·汉德的一篇在线文章接触到整体宫位的概念的。

I first came across the idea in the mid 2000s from Rob Hand, maybe around 2004 or something from reading an article online, the concept of whole sign houses.

当时我完全不感兴趣，甚至觉得这想法简直蠢透了，因为我一直习惯用普拉西杜斯宫位系统，我的背景完全是现代占星学。

And I was not interested at all and I thought that was a really dumb idea frankly because I was used to my Placidus chart and my background was entirely in modern astrology.

直到一年多后，当我学习了希腊占星术，了解了整个体系，以及全相位宫系统如何与其他一些技术相结合时，

And it was only when I learned Hellenistic astrology a year or so later and learned the full system and how the Whole Sign House system integrated with some of the other techniques.

我才真正愿意去尝试，更诚实地去体验，最终喜欢上它，并将其作为我的主要宫位系统。

And you could see the complexity of it that I was more open to trying it out more honestly and then eventually liking it and ending up adopting that as my primary system.

但即便到了2000年代中后期，我对当时仍存在如此多对全相位宫系统的抵触感到惊讶。

But I was still surprised how much resistance there still was to Whole Sign Houses at that point in the mid to late 2000s.

那时候，可能只有1%甚至更少的占星师将它作为主要的宫位系统。

It really was like 1% maybe or less of astrologers that used that as their primary system.

因此，当与其他占星师讨论你的方法时，你常常不得不为使用这种如此奇特、与标准象限宫系统截然不同的体系进行辩护。

And so oftentimes when talking to other astrologers about your approach, you'd end up having to defend using such a weird system that was so radically different compared to the standard quadrant house systems.

不过，我认为在我早期的博客文章和其他一些内容中，令人兴奋的是，发现了一种此前在占星界并不流行的新技术。

And I think in a lot of my early blog posts and other things like that though, it was exciting that there was a new technique that was discovered that hadn't been very popular in astrology up to that point.

但像sect（日夜间区分）、昼夜星盘的区分，或者时间主星技术等，这些在当时也都没有被广泛使用。

But techniques like that or like sect, like the distinction between day and night charts that hadn't been a technique in popular use up to that time or time lord techniques or other things like that.

因此，当人们采纳这些技术时，有时会充满热情地以各种方式推广它们。

So there was this enthusiasm sometimes when people adopted some of that stuff to promote it in different ways.

是的，我知道在某个阶段我对此非常热情，尤其是在我二十多岁年轻的时候，有时会开玩笑地大力推广，而不仅仅是被动地接受。

Yeah, and I know I was very enthusiastic about it at a certain point, especially when I was younger in my 20s and would sometimes do it jokingly or promote it much more actively instead of just passively.

是的，但我觉得在参与了一些相关争论之后，比如2015年发布我关于整宫制的讲座，随后遭到黛博拉·霍尔丁的强烈指责，从那时起，我在谈论宫位划分、特别是宫位划分的历史时，就更加谨慎地表达自己的观点了。

Yeah, but I think after walking into some of the debates with this, for example putting out my lecture on Whole Sign Houses in 2015 and then getting some really strong accusations from Deborah Houlding at that point about it, I was a little bit more careful in my messaging from that point forward in how I talked about house division and specifically about the history of house division from that point forward.

是的，但这件事在社群中不断反复出现。

Yeah, but this is like a recurring thing that keeps coming up in the community.

但我不知道有没有人——我的意思是，你以前有没有参与或观察过如此激烈的争论？

But I don't know that there's anybody I mean, did you ever get into or observe debates that got that strong before this?

关于其他占星技术或概念吗？

About other astrological techniques or concepts?

有。

Yeah.

很难说，因为在那之前，我可能还属于年轻占星师的范畴，很多时候你并不完全了解资深占星师群体中正在发生的事情。

It's hard to say because before that, I was perhaps still in the category of younger astrologer, where a lot of times you're not fully aware of the currents that are going on in the more established community members.

我得好好想想才能回答你。

I would have to I would have to think about that before I could respond.

是的。

Yeah.

我想其中一个观点是

I guess one of the points is

我可以谈谈小行星，因为我一直有把一些不受欢迎的概念引入占星材料的历史。

just Well, I could say about the asteroids because, well, I have a history of trying to introduce unpopular concepts into the astrological material.

当时我开始向社群普及小行星的影响、力量和意义时，小行星绝对不受欢迎。

And the asteroids were definitely not popular at the time that I took up trying to educate the community about their influence and their power and their meaning.

人们会说：我们不需要这么多东西。

It's like, oh, we don't need, like, all those things.

我们已经有十个行星了，已经够用了。

We're doing fine with the 10 planets we have already have.

它们只不过是太空中漂浮的碎石而已。

They're just pieces of floating gravel out there.

后来我还了解到，上世纪三十年代有些占星师也曾问：我们为什么需要冥王星？

And then there were I also became aware of comments in the nineteen thirties of astrologers saying, what do we need Pluto for?

我们现有的九颗行星已经足够好了。

We're doing fine with the nine planets we already have.

我们还需要别的东西来让我们的星盘变得杂乱吗？

Do we need something else cluttering up our chart?

因此，当新概念挑战了既定观念时，自然会产生某种抵触情绪。

So it's not uncommon for there to be a natural kind of resistance to a new concept that challenges the status quo of what is considered to be established.

对。

Right.

我想我的一个观点是，虽然早期在推广整体宫位系统时曾有一些热情，但我认为人们并没有积极攻击 quadrant 宫位系统的支持者来推广整体宫位系统。

I guess one of my points is that while there was some enthusiasm in promoting Whole Sign Houses early on, I don't think people were aggressively attacking quadrant house users in order to promote Whole Sign Houses.

没错。

Exactly.

你说得对。

No, you're right there.

当时的情况是：嘿，你看这个，而不是：你做的东西是错的。

It was, Hey, this is like, Look at this, rather than, What you're doing is wrong.

对。

Right.

而且就连我在2015年的讲座中，事情是这样的：我最近和亚当·埃林博斯聊了聊，他提醒了我当时究竟发生了什么，因为我对那个标题感到好奇。

And it's like even in my lecture in 2015, What happened with that is I was talking with Adam Ellenboss recently and he reminded me actually what happened because I was curious about the title.

他告诉我，亚当·埃林博斯请我做一个关于整宫制及其历史的演讲。

He told me that Adam Ellinbos asked me to do a talk on whole sign houses and their history.

他说，有趣的是，我请你做一场关于整宫制的演讲，然后我又让你想个更吸引人的标题，因为当时我给的标题太枯燥了，就只是‘整宫制的历史’。

And he said, What's funny is that I asked you to give a talk on whole sign houses and then I asked you to come up with a catchier title because I gave it something boring at the time which was just like the history of whole sign houses.

他说，于是你提议：‘不如叫“整宫制：有史以来最棒的宫位划分系统”？’

Says, So you said, how about whole sign houses, literally the best system of house division ever?

他说，这完全是开玩笑，只是为了给演讲标题增添点趣味，便于宣传。

And he says, And it was totally supposed to be a joke as a way of just spicing up the title of the talk for the purposes of marketing.

真正有趣的是，霍尔丁对此反应特别激烈，之后就开始攻击我，还分享了那场演讲开头的幻灯片。

And what's really funny about that is that Houlding especially reacted so viscerally to that and began attacking me afterwards and then shared slides from the beginning of that talk in this one.

但在这场演讲的结尾，我以完全和解的语气结束：使用哪种宫位系统其实并不重要，我只是在展示我选择这一系统的部分原因以及背后的历史考量。

But at the end of that talk, I ended it on a completely conciliatory tone of, It doesn't matter what system of house division you use, but I'm just demonstrating some of the reasons why I choose this one and some of the historical considerations behind it.

但最终，我认为希腊时期的占星家 themselves 似乎希望在整宫制和 quadrant 宫制之间找到一种融合。

But that ultimately the Hellenistic astrologers themselves, I said, seemed like they wanted to find a synthesis between whole sign houses and quadrant houses.

我认为，这就是我们今天应该努力的方向，去探索和解决的问题。

And that that I think is what we should move towards and try to figure out today.

每当这个话题出现时，我过去几年里一直在反复强调这一点。

And that's something I keep repeating over and over again over the past few years anytime this comes up.

但问题的一部分在于，宫制之争不断出现，并不是因为整宫制的支持者试图教条式地强迫其他人接受这种宫制，而是因为有一位 quadrant 宫制的支持者特别反感整宫制，一再挑起这些争论，迫使我们不得不一次次证明整宫制确实存在过，或者解释它在 1990 年代是如何被重新发现的，以及其他类似的问题。

But part of the issue is that the house division debates keep coming up not because Whole Sign House proponents are trying to dogmatically force this system of house division on other people, but because there's this one quadrant house proponent that just hates Whole Sign Houses and has been repeatedly bringing these debates up over and over again so that we have to defend that this concept even existed or defend how it was recovered in the 1990s or other things like that.

所以我想在这里澄清一下这个历史背景中的这一点。

So I just wanted to clarify that point as part of the history here.

是的。

Right.

考虑到这一点，因为罗伯·汉德在讲座中被提及为整宫制的主要推动者，是他接手并把这件事变成了一个争议点。

Think with that, because Rob Hand was stated as being the primary promoter of Whole Sign Houses in the talk, that he took it up and turned it into an issue.

嗯，他只是说

Well, just he said

对。

Right.

他写了一本书，说

He wrote a book saying

对。

Right.

书名叫《整宫制：最古老的宫位体系》。

Titled Whole Sign House, the oldest system of house Right.

我想分享一个关于罗布的故事，这个故事涉及一个观点，即某些事情从一开始就被决定了，但事实并非如此。

I just want to share a story about Rob that has to do with this notion of things being decided from the beginning as not actually being the case.

我参加过一次会议，我想那应该是在上世纪九十年代中期到后期。

And that I attended a conference, and I'm thinking it had to be somewhere in the mid to later nineteen nineties.

我估计大概是1996年左右，罗布做了一场关于相位的讲座，讲的是希腊化时期的相位观点，我参加了。

Probably my best guess is around 1996 or so, and that Rob gave a lecture on aspects that I a Hellenistic view of aspects, and I attended it.

他一直在谈论光束的投射、光束的击中以及其他相位概念。

And he was going on about the hurling of rays and the striking of rays and other aspect concepts.

之后，我走上前对他说：罗布，说实话，我一点都没听懂你讲的内容。

And afterwards, I went up to him and I said, Rob, you know, to tell you the truth, I didn't understand anything you said.

这到底意味着什么？

What does it all really mean?

我想知道的是，该如何运用这些材料和解释方法，但你根本没提到这些。

What I'd like to know is how to use this material and interpretation, and you didn't, like, mention that at all.

他看着我，脸上露出惊讶的表情。

And he looked at me kind of with this surprised look on his face.

难道你不懂我们在这里做什么吗？

Like, don't you understand what we're doing here?

他说：我们还不知道这意味着什么。

And he said, we don't know what it means yet.

我们目前的工作仅仅是翻译文本并呈现我们的发现。

Our job at this point is simply to translate the text and present our findings.

订阅的目的就是让我们能够翻译文本并呈现我们的发现。

That's what the subscription is for, to allow us to translate the text and present our findings.

一旦我们翻译并研究了足够多的材料，就需要一些时间来系统化地阐述其体系和解释。

Once we have translated and studied a sufficient amount of material, then it will take some time to articulate a system and interpretations.

所以我认为，这是一个非常重要的陈述，应该记录下来，说明他们当时在做什么、如何推进，以及他们并非从一开始就做出了决定。

So I thought that was, like, a very important statement that should go into the record of what it is they were doing and the way that they were proceeding and that they had not decided it from the beginning.

接着，在回顾罗布在1993年保卢斯著作出版期间对整宫制的评论时，你之前也提到过，整宫制被提及为从上升星座开始计数，每个星座作为一个宫位。

And then in looking at Rob's comments on whole sign houses over the course of the period in 1993 when Paulus came out, and there was and you said something about that earlier, the use of whole sign houses was mentioned as the signs themselves as counted from the rising sign, each sign counted as a place.

它只是被简短地用一两句话陈述，没有更多评论。

It was simply stated in a sentence or two without much more commentary.

在波利斯？

In Polis?

在波利斯。

In Polis.

你要我分享一下吗？

Do you want me to share that?

有

Have a

你知道它在哪里吗？

Do you know where it is?

你能找到吗？

Can you?

是的。

Yeah.

在这儿。

Here.

如果我理解得没错的话，就是关于保罗斯的引言部分，就在罗布·汉德所写的第三段，第一页上。

It's just the If I know what you're asking correctly, it's just the introduction to Paulus and it's on the very first page that Rob Hand wrote in the third paragraph.

它写道：保罗斯的占星术是一种成熟的星盘占星术，具备当代西方占星术的大部分特征，如星座、相位、推运、行运、守护星、尊贵位等。

It says, Paulus' astrology is a mature horoscopic astrology with most of the features of contemporary Western astrology, signs, aspects, directions, transits, rulerships, dignities, etc.

但它也是一种仍在发展中的占星术。

But it's also an astrology that's still developing.

保罗斯的几乎每一种技法，其形式都与现代对应技法有所不同，有些差异甚大。

Almost every one of Paulus' techniques has a form that ranges from somewhat different to very different indeed from their modern counterpoints.