早期项目"后见之明"访谈：汉德、施密特与佐勒

今天我们邀请到了当今最令人兴奋的占星项目之一——‘回溯项目’的三位核心人物。

We have with us today three principles of one of the most exciting projects in astrology today, the Hindsight Project.

接下来，让我交给罗伯特·施密特，他在很大程度上是这个项目的奠基人，请他向大家介绍他的同事，并简要介绍一下‘回溯项目’是什么。

And let me turn it over to Robert Schmidt, who in many ways was the father of this little project and have him introduce his colleagues here and tell a little bit about what Project Hindsight is.

我是罗伯特·施密特。

I'm Robert Schmidt.

这位是罗伯特·汉德，那位是罗伯特·佐勒。

Is Robert Hand, and that's Robert Zoller.

这样你们就能分清我们三人了。

So you can you can keep us straight.

我们正在翻译所有现存的希腊占星文献，无论是手稿形式还是已出版的版本。

We are translating all of the Greek astrological material that survives in manuscript or in in edited form.

我们首先从属于西方占星传统的核心材料入手，虽然未来可能不会局限于这一范围，但目前我们是从这里开始的。

We're starting with the material that is basically part of the Western astrological tradition, and that we probably will not confine ourselves to that, but that's where we're beginning.

目前，我们已经启动了两个研究方向。

And right now, we have begun two tracks.

我们有一个希腊语项目和一个中世纪拉丁语项目。

We have a Greek track and a medieval Latin track.

我是希腊语翻译，罗伯特·佐勒。

I'm the Greek translator, Robert Zoller.

在这里最右边的是中世纪拉丁语翻译。

On the far right here is the medieval Latin translator.

罗伯特·汉德，我们都应该认识，是这个项目的总编辑。

And Robert Hand, who we should all recognize, is the general editor of the project.

我负责翻译译文。

I translate the translation.

没错。

That's right.

这，相信我们，是必要的。

Which, believe us, is necessary.

这个项目实际上是在今年四月，大约三个月前才正式公布的，当时罗布在华盛顿州的NORWAC会议上宣布了这个项目。

So this project began was actually only announced in April, about three months ago, where Rob made an announcement about the project at the NORWAC Conference in Washington State.

到目前为止，反响非常热烈。

And it has had a rather overwhelming response so far.

我们有职业占星师、草根占星师，还有各个层次上可能持些许怀疑态度的人。

We have astrologers, professional astrologers, grassroots astrologers, people who are maybe a little skeptical at all levels.

人们一直以这种方式支持这个项目。

People have been supporting this project the way this is done.

请说吧。

Go ahead.

我只是想让你告诉他们具体是什么，以及他们如何也能参与其中。

I just wanted you to tell them exactly what that and support how they too could be part

参与其中。

of it.

这意味着，目前每个月，翻译人员——罗伯特·佐勒和我——都会从原始语言翻译一单元的占星资料。

What that means is that every month, the translators at this point, Robert Zoller and myself, translate the unit of astrological material from an original language.

原始文本通常大约有七十五页。

That's usually about seven five pages in the original.

在做这件事的同时，我们还会做全面的注释，试图解释其中的难点并提出哲学性问题。

And as we do that, we also annotate it fully, trying to explain explore difficulties and raise philosophical issues.

同时，罗伯特·汉德正在努力将这些内容转化为现代占星师更熟悉的形式。

And at the same time, Robert Hand is then trying to translate this into material that's more familiar with modern astrologers.

有时候这会非常困难。

And sometimes this can be very difficult.

这些小册子完成后，大约有100页，我们这里就有一本。

Well, these booklets, when they're done, probably about a 100 pages, we have one right here.

这是由‘回溯计划’出版的第一本小册子，内容来自保罗·亚历山大里亚斯，一位公元四世纪末的希腊作家。

This is the first booklet published by the Hindsight Project, and it is of Paulus Alexandrinus, a Greek who wrote at the end of the three hundreds.

这部作品从未被翻译成任何现代语言。

This work has never been translated into any modern language.

它曾在十五世纪被翻译成拉丁文，但此后再也没有人阅读过，这意味着没人真正知道里面写了什么。

It was translated into Latin of the fifteen hundreds, and nobody has read it since then, which means nobody really has any idea what's in it.

就连那些完成关键版本并将其整理成书的学者，显然也没有太关注其内容。

Even the scholars who did the critical edition and put it into book form evidently didn't pay too much attention to its content.

我们选择这部作品作为第一部，它非常能代表我们正在做的工作。

Well, we chose this as the first work, and it's very representative of the kinds of things we're doing.

它以小册子的形式呈现。

It's done in booklet form.

我们认为这是一种临时翻译，对我们来说，这是一个有点技术性的术语。

We consider this to be a provisional translation, and this is somewhat of a technical term for us.

由于几百年来没人读过这些材料，此时此刻，如果我们试图给出这些作品中任何一部的权威译本，那会显得相当自大，因为根本没人理解很多这些概念。

Since nobody has read this material for hundreds of years, it would be somewhat pretentious of us, at this point, to try to give a definitive translation of any one of these works for the simple reason that nobody understands a lot of these concepts.

你无法从一部作品中获得所需的所有知识。

And you can't get everything that you need to know from one work.

因此，我们正在做的是第一次通读，而不是像学者们常做的那样，花上一生或整个职业生涯专注于一部作品，试图做出他们认为的权威版本，我们认为这是一种非常糟糕的策略。

So what we are doing is we are doing a first time through, instead of doing what scholars oftentimes do, is spend their entire lives or their entire career doing one work and doing what they think is a definitive edition, we think this is a very poor strategy.

相反，我们将快速通读整个文献库，每月尽力做出最好的翻译。

Instead, we are going to go racing through the entire corpus, doing the best translation we can on this monthly basis.

在我们覆盖完所有材料之后，当我们发现早期翻译中的错误时——我们当然会犯错——我们会回来进行更权威的修订。

And after this after we've covered all the material, and we find out the mistakes that we made in the early one because we certainly make mistakes then we will return and do more definitive editions.

这些将以精装形式出版，我们希望它们能体现 hindsight 的成果，并成为西方世界永久的收藏。

And these will be published in the hardback form, and we hope represent the the fruits of hindsight and would be some permanent acquisition to the Western world.

很好，各位。

Good, guys.

这就是你们必须做的事情的一部分。

That's part of what you have to do.

是的。

Yes.

早上好。

Good morning.

好的，鲍勃。

Okay, Bob.

我们知道你已经完成了第一次翻译。

We have that you've been through that first You did the translations.

你已经读过了。

You've read it.

告诉我。

Tell me.

告诉我。

Tell me.

你在阅读那本书、做那项翻译时发现的最令人兴奋的事情是什么？

The most exciting thing you discovered in reading that book, in doing that translation.

我发现，这位被公认为糟糕的作家，实际上拥有非常深刻哲学、象征和神话方面的理解。

I discovered that this writer who was considered to be a wretched writer actually had a very sophisticated philosophical understanding, and symbolic understanding, and mythological understanding.

他将自己的占星思想融入了这一框架、这一体系中。

And he had embedded his astrological thinking into that framework, into that matrix.

这真的非常惊人。

This was really quite amazing.

那么，有没有什么实用的信息呢？

And how about a usable piece of information?

我知道这对作为学者的你很有吸引力。

I know that appeals to you as a scholar.

对于我们这些在外面的人来说，我们会不会发现一些信息，比如，如果你的太阳星与月亮星呈刑相，它实际上意味着的是这个，而不是那个。

For those of us who are out there, are we gonna find out something that says, oh, well, if you have the sun square of the moon, it really means this instead of that.

这两位作者在这本书中解决了一个紧迫的问题——令人畏惧的单音节词，这个问题一直困扰着这里的学者，如今已被清晰地用英语阐明，并作为一项实用技术融入了亚历山大占星术中。

One of the things that these two fellas did with that book was to solve the pressing question of the dreaded monomora, which scholars here in war have been unable to solve, has now been put as clear English and as a usable technique in in of this Alexandrian astrology.

但关于它们确切的含义，我认为你应该听听一位资深人士怎么说。

But for exactly what they are, I think you should hear what what a veteran can say.

好的。

Okay.

那我们来听听关于这个令人畏惧的单音节词的情况吧。

So let's hear about the dreaded monomeria.

这个

The

令人畏惧的单音节词。

dreaded monomeria.

‘令人畏惧的’并不是原文的一部分。

The dreaded is not part of the original.

其实呢，泰勒斯的理论里其实存在两套关于一元分宫（monomeria）的体系。

Actually, well, monomeria are there are actually two systems in Thales.

被冠以这个名号的那一套体系，是指星座内的每一度都由一颗行星主管。

The one that got the epithet credited was a system in which each degree of a sign is ruled by a planet.

而在这个特定体系里，这些行星主管权是依照同谋主管规则分配的，这又多了一层复杂的设定。

And in this particular case, the planetary rulerships are assigned according to complicity rulers, which is another layer of complexity.

但这套体系最终是用来校正星盘的。

But it turns out the system is used to rectify horoscopes.

事实上，占星学家们熟知不少古老的技法，其中最突出的两个是赫尔墨斯的《特鲁埃廷》和托勒密的《阿努姆达》。

And in fact, are a number of ancient techniques that astrologers know of, the two most outstanding are the Truettine of Hermes and the Anumdar of Ptolemy.

此外，在弗洛斯的著作里还有至少另外四种同类型的技法，现代占星学家对它们完全一无所知。

Well, are at least four others in Follos that are totally unknown to modern astrologers of a similar nature.

那也就是说，至少从现在到本世纪末，占星学家们都能不停地从这些小册子里挖掘素材，用来在各类学术会议上探讨，对吧？

So that means that there will be astrologers mining these little booklets for topics to talk about at conferences for at least from now to the end of the millennium, right?

哦，我觉得是这样，对，我也希望如此。

Oh, I think so, yeah, I hope so.

而且我敢肯定，其中一部分研究或许会非常富有启发性和创意，但还有一部分可能最好还是被埋没在历史的垃圾堆里。

And I'm sure that some of it will probably be very inspired and creative, and some of it will probably be best left in the dustbin of history.

但这不正就是学术发展迭代的核心吗？

But isn't that what provisional is all about?

对，没错。

Oh, yes.

确实是这样。

Yes.

来回答你之前问施密特、也问我本人的那个问题，我之前已经提到过SEC相关的事宜了。

To answer the question you asked of Schmidt, of myself, I already mentioned the SEC issue.

我今天不想在其他场合下再重提这件事。

I don't want to go into that again in other context today.

但另一件事，我个人觉得非常有成就感：几年前，我在自己的占星学随笔集里写过一篇关于十三谐波的文章。

But another one, I found personally enormously gratifying, was several years ago, I wrote an essay in my book of essays on astrology on the thirteenth harmonic.

那篇文章的参考来源是诺伊格鲍尔记载的一套古希腊占星家使用过的体系。

And this was based on a reference in Neugebauer to a system of that Greek astrologers used.

自从我读到纽格鲍尔的这个引用后，我不断发现这种技术以不同于我在文章中描述的方式被运用，我开始怀疑纽格鲍尔是不是产生了幻觉，或者我自己被他带入了歧途。然而，保罗斯著作中那个高大英俊、居于中心位置的论述，恰恰就是我从纽格鲍尔那里学到的方法，包括如何使用它的具体例子及其意义，甚至还有一些其他人未曾注意到的细节。

And ever since I read that reference in Neugebauer, I was finding instance after instance after instance of this technique done differently from the way I described it in the essay, and I was beginning to wonder if Neugebauer hallucinated and I had been led down the garden path by Neugebauer, well, their high wide handsome sitting in the middle of Paulus is exactly the method that I got from Neugebauer, complete with examples of how to use it and what its significance is, including some things that were noted by no one else.

而且，这种技术也出现在这些校正方法中。

And they also appear in these rectification techniques.

因此，我们不仅有城邦对这一技术的支持，还有其实际应用的例证。

So we not only have this technique supported by the polis but also practical illustrations of its use.

那么，您觉得这会让我们这些从事个人占星实践的人成为更好的占星师吗？

Now, you feel that this will make those of us who practice astrology with individuals better astrologers?

最终会的。

Eventually.

但在那之前，还需要大量的解读工作。

But there'll have to be a great deal of interpretation done between now and then.

不是立刻就能实现的，当然不是。

Not instantly, no.

我明白了。

I see.

或许更富有深思。

More thoughtful, perhaps.

是的。

Yes.

我期待消除的一种说法是：‘嗯，古人说过，你永远不知道古人是谁说的。’

One thing I am looking forward to eliminating is lines that begin, well, the ancient said you never find out who said ancient was.

或者‘天啊，根据我们的方法，根据我们的老师，这是一种古老的实践，我们已经将其更新了。’

Or gee, according to our method according to our teachers, this is an ancient practice that we've already brought up to date.

同样，没有任何出处。

Again, no reference.

现在有翻译成现代语言的古代占星书籍吗？

Are there ancient astrology books in translation right now?

只有《四书》，也就是《四卷书》。

There's only Tome, these Tetrabiblos.

还有门尼利乌斯。

And And Menelius.

不是希腊的。

Not Greek.

希腊的，只有拉丁的。

Greek, it's only Latin.

这是一个相对的术语。

It's a relative term.

是的。

Yes.

这也是一个相对的术语。

Which is relative term.

我知道它在那里。

I knew it was there.

好的。

Okay.

那么，鲍勃·佐勒，你有准备出版的论文或著作吗？

Well, Bob Zoller, do you have a tract do you have a treatise ready to come out?

我这里有阿尔·金迪关于天体提升的著作。

I have the Al Kindis on the stellar raises over.

那你在这本书里发现了什么令人兴奋的内容？

And what did you find exciting in that?

这是一本关于魔法的文本，整个主题非常引人入胜，因为其前提虽然在这部文本中并未明言，但却是现代占星师一直困扰的问题。

Well, it's a text on magic and the entire subject is a very intriguing subject because the premise is of course sort of tacitly addressed in this particular text, but something that modern astrologers are always troubled by.

也就是说，一旦我弄清楚了问题所在，我该如何应对？

Namely, once I figure out what the problem is, what do I do about it?

虽然这部文本没有给出具体的应对方法，但它提出了一套理论，解释了为什么可以采取行动，或者如何可能采取行动。

And while this particular text doesn't give specific instructions as to what to do about it, it lays out a theory as to why something can be done about it or how something might be able to be done about it.

因此，这当然是第一步。

So that, of course, is the first step.

它间接地提到了其他一些已知的文本，比如《皮卡特里克斯》，我们计划也将这些文本翻译出来，它们比这部文本更具体，但哲学性没那么强。

And it alludes to, in an indirect fashion, alludes to other known texts, which we also intend to translate, such as the Picatrix, which are quite specific and not quite as tightly philosophically conceived as this particular one.

所以它们彼此补充得非常好。

So they complement each other very nicely.

你正在翻译的这些拉丁文材料是原创作品，还是希腊文翻译成拉丁文的？

And is this Latin material that you're translating original material, or is it Greek that was translated into Latin?

这是一个很有趣的问题，因为它揭示了这一传统的本质。

Well, this is an interesting question, really, because it it shows the nature of the tradition.

这篇文本出自阿尔·金迪之手。

This text is by Al Kindi.

他是九世纪的阿拉伯哲学家，曾将希腊文本翻译成阿拉伯文，而现存的只是这部拉丁文译本，他的阿拉伯文原作已全部失传。

He's a ninth century he was a ninth century Arab philosopher who was translating Greek texts into Arabic, and this is a Latin translation which is all that survives his Arabic work.

对他而言，这是一部原创作品，但其内容基于他对其他著作的希腊文翻译。

It was an original work for him, but it was based on his his Greek translations of other works.

因此，你看到知识从希腊传到阿拉伯，再从阿拉伯回传到拉丁世界，这非常有趣。

So it's interesting that you see the actual transmission of knowledge from the Greeks to the Arabs, from the Arabs back to the Latin.

所有这些工作中，一个难题一定是：经过多种语言的转译，原始含义已经被改变了。

One of the problems in all of this must be that you're finding things that the translations through multiple languages have altered what the originals were.

是的，在某些情况下，中间语言虽然保留了部分原始概念的含义，但当进一步翻译成英语时，就完全失去了与原文的联系。

Yes, in some cases it appears that the intermediate language, even though it may have shared part of the original meaning of of the concept, then what was further translated into English, it lost all connection with the original.

这发生在希腊词zodion中，而我们有zodiac这个词，与此相关。

This happens in the the Greek term zodion, but we have the word zodiac, just related to this.

这是与‘黄道十二宫的符号’相对应的希腊词。

That's the Greek word that corresponds to sign, sign of the zodiac.

通过将zodion翻译成拉丁语signum，再由signum翻译成sign，我们已经完全失去了与希腊词原始语义场的联系。

And through the Latin translation of the word zodion into signum and signum into sign, we've lost all contact with the original semantic field the Greek word.

这种联系完全消失了。

It's totally gone.

我们没有任何关联。

We have no contact.

你和鲍勃会不会在翻译上出现重叠？比如你从原始希腊语翻译，而他从拉丁语衍生词翻译，从而发现两者之间的差异？

Are you and Bob gonna be overlapping any translations where you might translate something from the original Greek and he translates it from a Latin derivative and find find out what that gap is?

我们尽量避免重复彼此的工作，但一直在保持联系，互相交流心得。

Well, we're trying to stay away from duplicating each other's efforts, but we are in contact all the time comparing notes.

例如，在我们开始拍摄之前，我们刚讨论过一个情况：拉丁传统，即中世纪拉丁传统，会提到一颗行星位于另一颗行星的‘界’内。

For instance, just before we started this filming, were talking about a situation where the Latin tradition, Latin medieval tradition, speaks about a planet being in somebody's term, some other planet's term.

但巴赫发现，希腊文中对‘界’的提及总是使用复数形式。

But Bach has found that the reference to the terms in Greek is always in the plural.

A

A

一颗行星在若干度范围内，属于另一颗行星的界。

planet in so many degrees is in terms of another planet.

因此，这类细微差别最终都需要加以考察。

So there are some subtleties of that sort that have to be looked at ultimately.

此外，

Also,

关于

of the

罗布刚刚提到的‘十三分度法’，本质上是一种十三谐波，很可能在中世纪体系中被处理为‘十二分度’或‘十二宫’的拉丁语等价物，具体取决于翻译，即对位置进行十二倍的乘法运算。

things that Rob just mentioned, the Thodecamorea, which is basically a thirteenth harmonic, may very well turn out to be handled in the medieval system as the Lat equivalent of the Dwadasamsa or the Duodecima or the Duodenas, depending on the translation, being just a 12 fold multiplication of the position.

有一些值得注意的重叠案例，例如，阿布·巴沙尔使用的一个词，对我而言非常重要。

There are a few cases of interest in overlap, where, for example, a word by Abu Bashar, very important for me.

我们最终会有一个阿拉伯语的版本。

We will have an Arabic crack eventually.

我们目前还没有实现，但在中世纪非常重要。

We don't have it working yet, but very important in medieval times.

一些阿拉伯语著作，尽管基于希腊材料，但在不同时期又被翻译回希腊语。

Some of those works in Arabic, even though they were based on Greek material, got translated back into Greek at different times.

因此，可能存在一些希腊语的片段，对了解其他路径中的内容很有帮助。

So there may be bits and fragments of Greek Greek material that would be helpful for even finding out what was in the other tracks.

有时会从希腊语翻译成阿拉伯语，有时又从阿拉伯语再翻译回希腊语，然后有时再翻译成拉丁语。

Sometimes it would be translated from Greek into Arabic, and sometimes from Arabic into Greek again, and then sometimes into Latin.

因此，存在各种复杂的交叉重叠。

So there are all kinds of confusing overlaps.

在大多数情况下，我们会翻译一部非常重要的著作。

In most cases, we would translate a very important work.

例如，一些阿布·巴克尔的拉丁语著作。

For example, some of Abu Bakr's works in Latin.

罗伯特·佐勒会翻译它，即使阿拉伯文本可能得以保存。

Robert Zoller would translate that even though the Arabic text might survive.

后来可能会再将其从阿拉伯语翻译，因为拉丁文译本本身在历史上具有如此重要的地位。

Might then later translate it in Arabic because the the the Latin translation itself would have been so important historically.

人们会从这个译本中学习，而不是从原始的阿拉伯语原文中学习。

People would have learned from that rather than the original Arabic.

但接着我们会进行阿拉伯语翻译，以便与这本书的真实内容进行对比。

But then we would do the Arabic so that we could make a comparison with the actual truth of the the book we might say.

你希望这项工作在学术界产生影响吗？

Do you expect this work to have repercussions in the scholarly community?

例如，将一些从未被翻译过的古希腊著作译出，会不会吸引那些并非占星学家的人对这些译本感兴趣？

For example, having works translated from ancient Greece that have never been translated before, that there are actually people who are not astrologers who would be interested in these translations?

嗯，

Well,

除了占星学之外，还有两个不同的群体会对这些材料感兴趣。

there are two different communities outside of astrology that would be interested in this material.

其中一个群体我确信会引起关注，另一个群体我们或许也能引起他们的注意。

One group I am sure will attract attention of, the other one we may attract attention of.

传统的古典学者是我们或许能引起注意的第二个群体。

Conventional classical scholars is the second group we may attract the attention of.

是的，我们或许能引起他们的注意，但我们并不真的指望这个，如果发生的话会很有趣，但这并不是我们的主要关注点。

Yeah, that we may attract the attention of, but we're not really counting on that, and that will be interesting if it happens, but it is our primary concern.

另一个群体则是研究象征主义、原型形式的学生、心理治疗师和创意艺术家，这些领域的人我认为会比正统学术界更快地产生兴趣，因为他们更关注材料的质量，而非其来源。

The other group, however, is people who are students of symbolism, students of archetypal forms, psychotherapists, creative artists, these areas, these people I think will be interested much more rapidly than the orthodox academic community because they are more concerned with the quality of the material than they are its source.

那么，他们会在这份材料中发现什么？

And what will they be finding in this material?

他们会发现以前未知的思维模式吗？

Will they be finding indications of breed patterns of thought that were not known before?

哦，实际上比那更有艺术性。

Oh, actually much more artistic than that.

例如，《皮卡特里克斯》和《赫尔墨斯之书》都包含图像，以及对黄道各部分的图像描述，这些能让你通过完全非智力、非线性、非理性的途径进入象征体系。

For example, the Picatrix and Liber Hermetas both have pictures, descriptions of picture representations of sections of the zodiac, which allow you to get into the symbolism through completely non intellectual, non linear, non rational means.

你只需看着这些图片，让它们在你的脑海中自然共鸣。

You just simply you look at the pictures and sort of allow them to resonate in your mind.

这是一种非常新时代的做法，当然，这些图片早在两千多年前就已创作完成。

It's a very new age kind of approach, And except, of course, they were done over two thousand

两千多年前。

years ago.

还有另一类学者，我认为他们也可能对此感兴趣。

There's one other class of scholars who I think will probably also be interested in.

有些——不是全部——但有些文本，例如，

Some, not all, but some of these texts, for instance,

《利布拉

the Libra

赫尔墨斯》在开篇就包含了一份罗伯特所提及的十天神列表。

Hermetus, at the very beginning, contains this list of decans to which Robert is referring.

而这份列表本身将每一个十天神与特定的神名联系在一起。

And it is the list itself associates a particular god name with each of these decans.

这些神名大多是闪米特语的神名，而不是埃及神名。

These god names are, for the most part, Semitic god names, not Egyptian god names.

比如，我们在火星的第一个星官中遇到一个名为萨巴霍特的神名。

So we run across the first decan of Ares, for instance, associated with a god name Sabahot.

我们还发现了一个Yaus，这显然是Ya'u的误写。

We also find a Yaus, which is clearly a corruption of Ya'u.

特别是从事诺斯替主义研究的学者们会注意到这一点，并看到占星术与诺斯替运动之间的相互关联。

Now scholars that are working in the field of Gnosticism in particular are gonna take note of this sort of thing and see its relative the interlinking between the astrological and the Gnostic movements.

这段内容被剪掉了。

This goes off the cutting room floor.

这简直是人生的噩梦。

This is a nightmare in life.

那么，今天在场的观众有没有什么问题想问鲍勃们？

So do we have any questions from our audience here today that you'd like to address to the Bobs?

问鲍勃们。

For the Bobs.

你觉得这个，哦，我知道了，要持续多久

How long do you think this oh, I know what

我想问你一下，罗伯特。

I wanted to ask you about, Robert.

好事。

Good thing.

抱歉，罗伯特，你已经死了。

Sorry, you're just dead, Robert.

醒醒。

Wake up.

我们有些人还在睡觉。

Some of us are sleeping.

我相信你将在十二月翻译的论文之一是关于天气预测的。

One of the treatises that you're going to be translating sometime I believe in your December treatise is going to be on weather prediction.

而且

And

在我看来，你可能会找到一群非常兴奋的人，因为他们真的看到了你的成果，而其他人却没有。

it seems to me that you could find an entire group of people very excited that you actually came up with and everybody else.

我的意思是，天气在美国是一个巨大的产业。

I mean, weather is a big big business in America.

电视上有一个专门的天气频道。

There's a whole weather channel on TV.

你有没有想过自己会被邀请去播报晨间天气？

Do you see yourself being invited on to do the morning weather?

谁知道我会不会去参加呢。

Who knows if I wouldn't come to that.

我才不会屏住呼吸等那一天呢。

I wouldn't care to hold my breath waiting.

然而，这里有一些材料，从历史角度来看，对从事天气预测的人可能非常重要，因为古希腊人——即使他们并没有进行占星术意义上的星象占卜——显然已经将气象现象和基本天气与恒星的位置联系起来，特别是恒星的偕日升和偕日落。

However, there is material here which could just, historically speaking, be important for people doing weather prediction because there's a the real early Greeks, we're Greeks even if they may have not been doing astrology in in the horoscopic of the horoscopic variety, were clearly correlating meteorological events and the basic weather with the positions of the stars, particularly the halical risings and settings of those stars.

而托勒密的这项工作，将在今年年底问世，其中确实包含了一份日历，将亚历山大历法的每一天都与特定的天气预测相对应。

And this work by Ptolemy, which will appear toward the end of this year, in fact contains a catalog or calendar in which every day of the Alexandrian year is correlated to a certain weather prediction.

在托特月的第一天，也就是他们新年的开始，你可以预期在某一纬度上阿提安风将开始吹拂，而其他地方则会有雷电交加等等。

On the first day of Thoth, which was the beginning of their year, you can expect that the Atesian winds will begin to blow at a certain latitude, whereas there'll be thunder and lightning over here and so forth.

这些实际上是经过数个世纪由顶尖希腊天文学家收集的实证观察。

Now these were actually empirical observations that have been compiled over a number of centuries by leading Greek astronomers.

与大多数学者的信念相反，这些古代的主要天文学家——如欧多克斯、喜帕恰斯等人——都在试图将基本的天气模式与恒星的位置，特别是电磁环境下的位置联系起来。

Contrary to what most of the academics would believe, these were the primary astronomers of ancient times, Eudoxus, Hipparchus, and so forth, were all trying to correlate the basic weather patterns with positions of the stars, particularly in the electromagnetic setting.

因此，这类材料如此丰富，至少可以与现代天气模式进行对比。

And so there's so much of this material that it at least could be compared to modern weather patterns.

然而，我们必须意识到，现代环境和现代天气模式已不再仅仅受自然事件影响，因为烟囱和其他各种因素正在干扰自然模式。

However, we would have to realize that the modern environment, the modern weather patterns, are not solely influenced by natural events any longer because, you know, smokestacks and all kinds of other things that are interfering with the natural patterns.

因此，你必须对这类干扰因素进行相应的修正。

So you would have to certainly compensate for anything like that.

此外，也可能只是气候变化等原因造成的。

Plus, it may have just been climate changes and whatnot.

但希腊人曾以某种规律性和精确性进行过这些观测，这让我们觉得或许值得重新研究一下。

But yet the fact that the Greeks did this with some regularity and some precision leads us to think that maybe this should be looked into again.

但就连托勒密自己也说，这需要加以补充。

But even Ptolemy himself said that it needed to be supplemented.

这种天象天气预测需要结合更多的行星数据。

This celestial weather predicting needed to be supplemented with actually more planetary material.

你需要确定主要行星在何时与恒星的出没对齐。

You needed to determine where major planets were at

与此同时，当恒星升起和落下时。

same time as the stars were aligned rising, and setting.

也许叙利亚人和以色列人会对埃及的风感兴趣。

Well, maybe the Syrians and the the the people in Israel would be interested in the Egyptian winds.

他们可能会。

They might.

是的。

Yes.

我我

I I

我有一个问题。

have a question.

不过我也不确定这个问题是否和现在的讨论相关。

Or I don't know if it's relevant or not.

我之前一直听人说起，教会的初代教父们都常会任用占星师这类人，后来占星术才逐渐变得名声败坏。

I was always told or kind of heard that the church fathers always used astrologers and so on and then it found this repute at some point.

您的学术研究有没有可能重新认可，或是说重新尊重那些在古代曾为教皇提供过建议的占星师呢？

Would your scholarly work by any chance give respect again or honor to the astrologers that may have advised popes in ancient times or not?

一般来说，教父这个术语指的是早期基督教时期，也就是早期基督教阶段的最初几百年。

Generally speaking, the term church fathers refers to the early Christian period, the first few centuries of the early Christian period.

而教宗们自然是另一批人了。

And the popes, of course, are separate guys.

15世纪和16世纪的教宗的确会任用占星师。

The popes in the fifteenth century and sixteenth century did use astrologers.

比如说，卢卡·戈尔吉科成功预测了亚历山德罗·法尔内塞将登上宗座、成为教宗，凭借这次准确的预测，他后来被任命为意大利两海教区的主教。

And for instance, Luca Gorgico predicted the ascension to the cathedral, to the papacy of Alessandro Farnese, and was made bishop of two seas in Italy as a result of the successful prediction.

但据我所知，自那以后，这种做法并不普遍，而且在中世纪，教皇使用占星师本身也并非什么大事。

But it isn't something which is generally done, as far as I know, since that time, nor was it a big deal for popes to use astrologers in the Middle Ages per se.

尽管有些教皇本身就是占星师，或者至少足够精通数学和占星术，足以胜任。

Although some of the popes were astrologers, or at least were facile enough in the mathematics and astrology to be so.

格伯，即后来的西尔维斯特二世，就是其中之一，据传他是一位占星师教皇，有些人甚至称他为魔法师。

Gerber, who became Sylvester the second, is one of these fellows who's reputed to have been a pope who was an astrologer, and also by some who claimed to be a magician well.

就我们正在做的工作而言，我们希望能在占星师群体中提升占星术的标准，并让公众普遍认识到，占星术远比人们普遍认为的要丰富得多。

As far as what we're doing, it's hoped that what we can do is bring about a certain elevation in the standard of astrology among astrologers and make people in general public realize that there was far more to astrology and is far more to astrology than is generally thought to be the case.

也许这会将占星术提升为一种被接受的科学。

Perhaps that will have the effect of raising astrology to a an acceptable science.

也许会，但至少它一定会让占星术变得更好。

Perhaps it will, but at least it will certainly make better astrology.

我们会发现，占星师们需要去学习希腊哲学，拥有更广阔的视野，以便吸收这些内容吗？

Will we find that astrologers are gonna need to go out and learn Greek philosophy and have a broader worldview so that they can absorb this material?

我有点不愿意说每个占星师都必须去学习希腊哲学，但我认为希腊哲学的理解在占星界必须变得更加普及。

I would be a little reluctant to say that every astrologer has to go out and learn Greek philosophy, but I think an understanding of Greek philosophy needs to become much more widespread in the astrological community.

对柏拉图、亚里士多德、普罗提诺或任何其他人的深入理解，对于日常咨询来说并非绝对必要。

A thorough knowledge of Plato, Aristotle, Plotinus, or whomever is not exactly essential for a day to day counseling session.

但与此同时，如果占星师们在这些领域拥有更好的哲学基础，他们可能就不那么容易被怀疑论者、科学人士、揭穿者等牵着鼻子走——这些人之所以能难住占星师，部分原因在于他们让占星师用现代世界观来运作，然后试图在这一框架内为占星术辩护；而正确的做法是，占星师应置身于现代世界观之外，转而采用古代世界观，在这种世界观中，占星术根本不是问题。

But at the same time, if astrologers had a better philosophical foundation in these areas, they might be less easily caught up by skeptics, scientific types, debunkers, and so forth, who basically trip astrologers up in part because they get the astrologer operating from the modern worldview and then trying to defend astrology within it, whereas the correct practice is the astrologer will be operating outside of the modern worldview and then in the more ancient one in which astrology is not a problem.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，问题不在于应该要求占星师去学习这些东西。

I would say that it's not so much a matter that astrologers should be told to go out and study this stuff.

我认为这并不必要。

I don't think it's gonna be necessary.

我认为，当他们看到正在发生的事情时，他们会自发地想去获取这些知识。

I think what's gonna happen is that when they see what's being done, they're gonna want to go out and get this stuff.

这将是一种自发的过程。

It's gonna be a spontaneous sort of an affair.

存在

There are

顺便说一下，这些书的注释中已经包含了大量相关内容。

already a great amount of that in the notes to these books, by the way.

所以你并不需要专门去上一门课。

So it's not as if you have to go take a course in it.

我的意思是，我们并不是在说要读完所有古代人的著作。

I mean, we're not talking about reading all the works of the ancients.

某种程度上，这关乎向人们介绍主要概念，而这些概念会反复呈现和再呈现。

I mean, to some extent, it's a matter of presenting the major concepts to people, which will be presented and re presented again and again.

我认为它们可以相当容易地被吸收。

And I think they can be assimilated fairly readily

用这种方式就可以了。

in that fashion.

事实上，让我持一个有争议的观点。

As a matter of fact, let me take a controversial position.

我不希望你在这张沙发上提出一个有争议的观点，但我有

I don't want you to a controversial on this couch, but I have

在其他地方有争议。

a controversial elsewhere.

我说的是，我们强烈建议你们不要去上大学的学术课程来学习这些哲学，因为它们自十八、十九世纪以来就被对这些哲学真实内涵的系统性误解所掏空了。

I'm saying that we strongly recommend that you not go out and take university academic courses in these philosophies because they have been systematically gutted by eighteenth and nineteenth century misunderstandings of what they really are about.

对他们来说，真正更好的方式是通过这些书籍来接触哲学，然后去阅读原著，希望我们能引导他们选择更优质的译本，而不是更差的译本，甚至在将来我们能提供自己的译本，让他们能够不被现代学者实证主义和唯物主义偏见所扭曲，直接在哲学的原生语境中体验它。

What is actually much better for them to do is to encounter the philosophy through these books, and then go and read the original books, hopefully with us steering them to be better rather than the worse translations, or maybe even at some point providing our own, so they can actually experience the philosophy on its native ground without being read through the positivistic and materialistic biases of the modern scholars.

因此，显然，你们这些从事翻译的人手中承担的责任远不止于说‘希腊语的这个词等于英语的这个词’，你们不仅必须是语言学家，还必须是哲学家，以理解其背景，并且像占星家一样，懂得如何将这一切整合起来。

So obviously, you who are doing the translating are holding in your hand responsibility that goes far beyond saying that this word in Greek means this word in English, that you must be versed as not only as linguist, but as philosophers to understand the background and as astrologers to understand how to put it all together.

因此，人们所获得的将不仅仅是古代著作的字面翻译，而是一项真正非凡的作品，它将这些原始著作置于某种语境中，并加以解释和阐释。

So that what people are going to be getting is not just a literal translation of ancient books, but truly a remarkable work that takes these original works and puts them in some sort of context and explains and interprets them.

事实上，我们所有人都深受哲学问题的影响，并尽可能广泛地阅读原始文献。

As a matter of fact, all of us are quite steeped in philosophical issues and read widely in original sources to the extent that we could.

因此，我觉得我们之前的训练确实使我们能够应对这些哲学问题，取得某种成功。

So I feel that our prior training really allows us to deal with these philosophical issues, what would some success.

我们所有人都

We all have

一种看似被主流社会视为弱点的奇特优势，那就是我们的文化倾向于将专业化做到极致。

a curious strength that can probably be viewed by mainstream societies of weakness, which is that it is a tendency of our culture to specialize to the nth degree.

老笑话常说，专家就是那种对越来越少的事情知道得越来越多，最终对什么都一无所知的人。

The old joke being a specialist is a person who knows more and more about less and less until finally he knows everything about nothing.

而我们是通才。

Well, we're generalists.

我们掌握着广泛领域的知识，这种优势在于能够纵观全局，观察各领域之间的互动与交织，而不会有人对你说：‘你不能这么做，因为你没有受过这个领域的训练，也没受过那个领域的训练’等等。

We have knowledge in a wide variety of fields, and the virtue of this is that we can actually look over this wide variety, see the interaction, and see the interplay without somebody saying, well, you can't do this because you're not trained in this field, you're not trained in that field, and so on and so forth.

要恰当地完成这项工作，实际上就需要成为这种通才，我们严重质疑典型的大学培养的学者是否具备将这些内容整合起来所需的宏观视野。

To do this work properly actually requires being this kind of a generalist, and we seriously question whether your typical university trained scholar would have the overview necessary to put these things together.

因此，我们在这里谈论的是一种生态学的视角，即认识到所有事物是如何相互关联的，并能够以某种统一的模式呈现出来。

So we're talking about an ecological point of view here where you recognize how all the things are connected together and are able to present them in some unified pattern.

是的，我同意。

Yes, I would say so.

我的意思是，书中的注释会持续呈现这种风格。

I mean, the annotations in the booklets will look like that continually.

其中一些也会是推测。

Some of them will be speculations too.

再说一遍，这个翻译项目的一个特点就是我们并不试图以权威口吻发言。

Again, we're not one feature of this translation program is that we are not trying to speak, you know, ex cathedra here.

我们的想法是希望能够自由地对各种事情进行推测。

The idea is we want to be free to speculate about things.

我认为这意味着这一点。

I think that this means this.

而在以后的某一版中，比如说，我之前对这一点的理解是错的。

And then in a later a later edition, say, I was wrong about that.

这完全不是这个意思。

It doesn't mean that at all.

我们希望开启讨论，并特别鼓励订阅者们做出回应。

We would like to open up discussion, and we particularly would like to encourage responses from the people who are subscribing.

这对我们来说非常重要。

This is very important to us.

这不仅帮助我们更好地完成工作，还让我们不至于陷入僵化。

Not only does it help us do the work better, but it keeps us from getting stale.

我的意思是，很容易陷入某种模式。

I mean, it's easy to fall into a pattern.

你会说，我认为这正是它的含义。

You say, I think that this is what this is about.

你一直沿着这个思路走下去，就开始忽视其他证据。

You keep following it through, so you start ignoring other bits of evidence.

但有时候，那些对哲学未必了解的人所给出的开放性反应，对这种项目来说可能非常有益。

But sometimes, a kind of open reaction from from people who don't necessarily know much about philosophy can sometimes be very, very healthy in this kind of project.

所以当我们说希望得到读者的反馈时，这绝不仅仅是一个宣传手段。

So when we say we want feedback from the readers, this is not just an advertising ploy.

这是非常认真的。

It's really serious.

至少对我来说是这样。

At least it is for me.

我也是。

Me too.

事实上，我们已经从一些人那里得到了这样的反馈。

And as a matter of fact, we've already had that from some of our people.

我确实接到过一位观众的电话，我相信他目前就在我们的受众之中。

We actually received a I received a phone call from a person who's actually in our audience, I believe, at the moment.

他回应了我发表在我们期刊上的一篇相当学术的文章，这篇文章恰好讨论了翻译项目中出现的许多抽象且有些困难的问题。

And he was responding to a rather scholarly article that I had written in our journal, which which happens to discuss a lot of the sort of really abstract and somewhat difficult issues that come up in the translation project.

这正是它的目的。

That's what its intention is.

这位读者阅读了这篇文章，并从占星学的角度做出了回应，指出其中有些地方不一致。

And this person had read this article and had responded to it from an astrological point of view saying there's something here that isn't consistent.

换句话说，你是在说，有一种亚里士多德式的视角来看待金星、火星，或者金星和月亮对大气层的影响。

In other words, you're saying that there's an Aristotelian way of looking at what the planet Venus and the planet Mars or the planet Venus and the moon does to the atmosphere.

但在我看来，这与占星符号学并不一致。

Whereas it seems to me that isn't consistent with astrological symbolism.

这是一次非常有趣的互动，因为它让我重新思考了我对那段文字的翻译方式。

And this was very interesting as an interaction because it caused me to go rethink how I had translated that passage.

因此，这是一种与读者互动的极其宝贵的方式。

And so this is an exceptionally valuable way to have interaction with the readership.

所以我们并不是想强加什么，只是希望打开对话。

And so we're not trying to dictate, we're just trying to open up.

我还有另一个想法。

I have another thought.

如果你引起了注意，你提到的学者和大学，他们会对你所做的事情持敌对态度吗？

Will there be if you got the attention, you're talking about the scholars, Rob, and the university, would there be hostility to what you're doing?

我在想，这就像科学或医学上的突破，它打破了他们认为是真理或运作规律的东西。

I was thinking about in terms of breakthrough in science or medicine and it breaks with what they thought was the truth or the laws that were operating.

现在你提出了这些观点。

Now you're coming out with these.

你并不是针对那种受众。

You're not going for that kind of audience.

我毫不怀疑，我们会被认为极其傲慢，我们的资质会受到多方质疑。

I have no doubt we will be regarded as being exceedingly presumptuous and our credentials will be questioned right and left.

我也毫不怀疑，如果我们确实引起了他们的注意，并且没有被立即 dismiss，他们将会逐字逐句地挑出翻译中的问题。

And I have also no doubt that if we do attract their attention and are not instantly dismissed to speak confident a priori, that they will pick the translations apart left and right.

至于最后一条规则——逐字逐句地挑出翻译中的问题，我认为可以肯定地说，我们的译者是欢迎这种批评的，因为这会给我们提供回应的机会，甚至可能极大提升翻译质量。

Now the last rule, picking the translations apart left and right, I think I can safely say our translators are welcome because it would give us something to respond to and possibly quite improve the translations.

我们并不反对这一点。

We're not opposed to that.

但另一方面，如果我们仅仅因为是占星师而非受过严格训练的大学语言学家而被 outright 拒绝，恕我直言，

But if, on the other hand, we are simply rejected out of hand, no pun intended, because we're astrologers and not highly trained university linguists.

并因此被他们全盘否定。

And for that reason, they condemn us.

我认为，占星界应有的反应应该是无视他们。

And I think the proper reaction or reaction of the astrological community should be to ignore them.

我还有个问题要问罗布。

I have another question for Rob.

你的愿景是什么？

What is your vision?

我今天早些时候听到你说，你生来就是为了做这份工作，就是你现在正在做的这件事。

I heard you say something earlier today that this is what you were born for, this work that you're doing right now.

我很想知道，在未来四五年，甚至十年里，这件事会走向何方。

And I'm curious as to what your vision is over the next four or five, maybe even ten years where this is going.

也许你已经说过这些了，但我很喜欢这一点。

Perhaps you've said that already, but I like that.

整体来说未来会怎样，我很难清晰地表达出超出我之前所说的内容，但我可以告诉你我的计划。

Well, where the whole thing is going is a little hard for me to say clearly outside beyond what I've said already, but I'll give you my plan.

是的，那就是

Yes, that's what

除了担任翻译的编辑之外，我认为我的角色是将这些材料以一种能让占星界真正消化并融入当代实践的方式传递给占星社区。

Outside of being involved as editor of the translations, I see my role as being the conveyor of the material to the astrological community in such a form that it can really begin to digest and integrate it into its contemporary practice.

我并不是说我是唯一做这件事的人，但这是我为自己设定的任务，任何愿意接手的人都可以去做。

I'm not saying I'm the only one doing this, but that is a task I see for myself and anyone else who cares to take it on.

在项目开始之前，我开始撰写一篇关于西方占星传统真实面貌的介绍，而非现代占星术。

One of the things I started doing before the Project began was writing an introduction of the astrological tradition of the West as it actually is rather than modern astrology.

但我很快遇到了一个又一个问题，发现很多地方我自己也并不清楚究竟哪里不明确。

And I quickly began running into issue after issue where I simply didn't know where things were really unclear.

让我举一个正在浮现的具体例子，不过我还不能断言它已被完全证实。

Let me give you a concrete example of one issue that is surfacing, but I can't yet say is fully proven.

从中世纪至今，占星学非常强调元素和三合宫的特性。

In astrology from the Middle Ages and forward, a great deal of emphasis was placed on the qualities of the elements and the triplicities.

明白吗？

Okay?

这是每位占星师都熟悉的内容。

This is something every astrologer is familiar.

白羊座、狮子座和射手座是火象星座。

Aries, Leo, and Sagittarius are fire signs.

但现代占星师通常只说它们是火象星座，而对中世纪的占星师而言，这意味着它们是热且干燥的。

Well, most modern astrologers simply say they are fire signs, but to a medieval astrologer, that meant they were hot and dry.

从伊斯兰时期到文艺复兴时期的星象医学正是基于这些性质。

And astrological medicine from the Muslim period through the Renaissance was based on these qualities.

我看到大量证据表明，三合宫中的元素根本不是由那种双重性质构成的。

I'm seeing a great deal of evidence which suggests that the elements in the triplicity are not in fact elements made out of double qualities like that at all.

你看，在古代世界有两组四种元素。

See, there there are two sets of four elements in the ancient world.

有一套是亚里士多德的体系，每个元素都由一对性质组成，比如火是热且干，水是冷且湿，空气是温且湿，土是冷且干。

There's the Aristotelian set where every element is a pair of qualities like fire is hot and dry, water is cold and wet, air is warm and wet, and earth is cold and dry.

但在亚里士多德之后不久，斯多葛学派重新定义了这四种元素。

But it appears that shortly after Aristotle, the Stoics redefined the elements, same four elements.

但火不再是热且干，而仅仅是热。

But fire, instead of being hot and dry, was merely hot.

土不再是冷且干，而仅仅是干。

Earth, instead of being cold and dry, was merely dry.

水不再是冷且湿，而仅仅是湿。

Water, instead of being cold and wet, was merely wet.