向非占星师解释占星术

外面正在发生一些重要的事情。

Something significant is happening out there.

这里的意义在哪里？

Where is the significance here?

我在想，我们是不是在本不存在关联的地方强行寻找关联。

And I wonder if we're if if you were looking for the correlation where there might not necessarily be one.

我知道，这实际上可能触及到许多问题的根源。

Know this is, like, this is something that, I guess, probably goes to, like, the root of a lot of questions.

比如，这里是否存在一种确认偏误？你知道的，空气引号，你认为这里应该有什么事情发生。

Like, is there a form of confirmation bias here where you know, you know, air quotes, there should be something happening here.

好吧。

Okay.

我们去找找看吧。

Let's go find it.

然后你回溯，比如说，假设是二十年前，本该发生某件事。

And then you look, you know, twin let's say, hypothetically, it's twenty years in the past, something was supposed to happen.

事件在哪里？

Where is the event?

我觉得这是一个很难克服的问题。

Like, I feel like that that is a hard question that I struggle to overcome.

这难道不是一种确认偏误吗？

How is this not, I guess, a form of confirmation bias?

是的。

Yeah.

这是一个潜在的问题，也是一个主要障碍，尤其是在观察全球事件时，因为任何时刻都有太多事情在发生，如果你试图寻找某种相关性，你可能会找到它，或者得出某种结论。

That's a potential issue and a major obstacle, especially when you're looking at worldwide events where there's so many things happening at any given time, if you're looking to see if there is a correlation, that you might be able to find it or that you might reach.

比如，有人可能会被指责牵强附会，说这就是相关性，但这种相关性并不强，或者和他们事先声称的并不完全一致，诸如此类。

Like somebody could be accused of reaching and saying, Well, this was the correlation and it's not very strong or not exactly what they were saying it was gonna be ahead of time or something like that.

所以确认偏误确实是一个潜在问题，而且通常也是怀疑者认为的主要原因。

So confirmation bias is definitely a potential issue and it's also usually assumed to be by skeptics the primary thing.

通常，占星术只是被简单地归结为确认偏误。

Usually astrology is just written off as confirmation bias.

我认为，当涉及到日常占星术时，这种危险更大，因为当你处理的是主要的外行星周期，以及那些被认为与大量人群相关的现象，并从整体上观察世界时，涉及的变量非常多。

I think that's more of a danger when it comes to mundane astrology because when you're dealing with major outer planet cycles and something that's supposed to be relevant to large groups of people and you're looking at the world in general, there's a lot of variables involved.

但这也是为什么我认为更关注本命占星术的原因之一，本命占星术更加局部化，实际上大多数占星师——我想说90%到95%的占星师——专精于出生图的研究，从个人生活的角度来观察相关性。

But that's one of the reasons why I think paying more attention to natal astrology, which is a lot more localized and is actually typically what most astrologers, like I would say ninety to 95% of astrologers actually specialize in, is just the study of birth charts and looking at the correlations more in the context of an individual person's life.

我认为变量没那么多，有时更容易判断：那些事先做出的关于未来发展的假设，究竟是正确的，还是错误的。

I think the variables are not as big and sometimes it's easier to see whether this statement that was made ahead of time about the assumption about what's coming up ended up being correct or if it ended up being false.

有时怀疑论者会这样描述：这些说法太笼统了，几乎可以套用在任何事情上，诸如此类。

Sometimes skeptics will frame it and say, What's so generalized that you could apply it to anything or something like that.

但实际上，虽然确实存在一定的笼统性，因为这些说法有时是以原型的方式表达的，占星师在谈论某些星位象征时，使用的是比较宽泛的原型。

But in fact, while there is a generality about it because it's sometimes phrased or talked about in the sense of archetypes that astrologers are working with broad archetypes when they talk about the symbolism of certain placements.

但大多数时候，这些说法已经足够具体，我认为很容易判断某个陈述或预测是正确的，还是错误的。

It's actually specific enough most of the time that I think it's pretty easy to say whether or not the statement or the prediction was true or whether it was false.

所以，我认为这并不仅仅是确认偏误的问题，尽管这确实是需要关注并努力避免的，尤其是当你认真、有意识、谨慎地从事占星研究时。

So, I don't think it's just a matter of confirmation bias necessarily even if that's certainly something you have to pay attention to and have to try to avoid, if you're trying to do this, do astrology seriously and consciously and carefully.

你提到确认偏误很有趣，因为我们在考虑本命占星术时，曾深入思考过一个问题——我们还稍微谈到了自由意志，那就是皮格马利翁效应：如果你被告知你会成为某种样子，你就更倾向于去发现并关注自己身上的这些特质。

It's interesting that you mentioned confirmation bias because one of the things that we thought about a lot when taking into account natal astrology And we talked a little bit free will, what we discussed is the Pygmalion effect, this idea that if you're told that you're going to be a certain way, you're more inclined to start recognizing those traits in yourself and focusing in on them or honing in on them.

我觉得让我们对占星术产生反感的一点，就是看自己的星座和那些性格特征。

And one of the things that I think turned us off about this idea of astrology was looking at our signs and some of these characteristics.

就像，我不想要那样的特质。

It's like, I don't want that characteristic.

你想当一家公司的CEO，但你的星座却说：不，你更适合当个清洁工。

You want to be the CEO of a company, and then your sign is like, Nah, you should probably be a janitor.

或者，我觉得有些星座会说，你在这些方面很擅长。

Or, you know, like, some I feel like some of the signs are like, you you excel in these areas.

而这些方面，尤其是在美国，有些性格特质更容易带来经济上的成功，而另一些则像是：是的，你可以当个老师，年薪三万五千美元。

And, like, those areas, you know, especially living in The United States, like, some personality traits are more inclined to succeed more economically, whereas others, it's like, yeah, you can be a teacher and make 35,000 a year.

所以对我们来说，这些感觉很受限。

So for us, it was like these feel constrictive.

我们觉得会被自己的星座束缚住，感觉太过宿命论了。

We feel like we would be pinned down by our astrological sign, it feels overly deterministic.

我想知道你对这种现象有什么看法。

And I'm just curious as what your thoughts are on that phenomenon.

当然。

Sure.

我认为问题在于它过于限制性或规定性，如果这样表达准确的话，对吧，查理。

I think the issue with it being overly restrictive or prescriptive, if that's the right way to phrase it or right, Charlie.

至少我喜欢这个词。

I like that word at least.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

不，我也这么觉得。

No, I do too.

问题在于，这种现象在通俗流行占星术中更为危险，因为它试图对没有相关背景的人做出具体且笼统的陈述，因此他们更容易认为占星术比实际情况更具决定性或限制性。这可能是占星术普及的一个潜在弊端：当占星术变得非常流行时，人们会形成这样的观念——所有天蝎座都这样，所有双子座都那样，这可能导致人们形成刻板印象，而不是真正去了解他人。

The issue is that that's more of a danger with the generic pop astrology because it's trying to make specific statements and general statements that are applicable to people that don't have a background in the subject, and so they might be more liable to think that it's more deterministic or more restrictive than it actually is, and that that could be a potential downside to a popularization of astrology, which is astrology becomes really popular and people have this perception that all Scorpios are like this or all Geminis are like this, that it could lead to some negative things about people forming preconceptions instead of just getting to know people.

但一旦你进入占星界，成为中级或高级占星师后，通常情况并非如此，占星师们一般也不会这样看待问题。

But most once you get into the astrological community in terms of intermediate and advanced level astrologers, that's not usually how it works, and that's not usually how astrologers approach things.

尽管占星师们确实会基于他们认识的人的出生星盘，观察与之相关的人格特质或过去的行为，带有一定的经验主义色彩。

Even though there is sort of empiricism of astrologers taking into account the birth charts of people that they knew and what sort of character traits were associated with that or what kind of actions that person had in the past.

通常，占星师会更加谨慎，不会立刻假设下一个拥有相同星盘配置的人也会做出完全相同的行为。

Usually, astrologers are more careful not to assume immediately that the next person they meet that has the exact same placement is going to do that exact same thing.

这更像是一系列可能的表现范围，从非常积极到非常消极，但大多数情况下，实际表现都落在两者之间的某个位置，你知道的，更接近中间地带。

It's just more of a general range of possible manifestations that are going to range from very constructive ones to very negative ones, but most of the time fall somewhere, you know, much more in between.

所以，虽然这是一个潜在风险，但这也是另一个类似的问题——属于可能的负面影响，但实际发生的频率可能远低于人们担忧的程度，尤其是当人们接受了占星原则与伦理的适当教育时。

So while that's a danger, it's another one of those things that are like potential downsides, but probably doesn't happen as much as as one might worry that it could, especially with maybe proper education on the principles and the ethics of astrology.

比如，占星的伦理本身就是另一个独立的子领域。

So like the ethics of astrology is a whole other subfield.

这回答了你的问题吗？

Did that answer your question?

我觉得可能还有一部分我没说到。

I feel like there might be another piece there that I didn't get.

我确实想简单聊聊占星学的伦理问题，因为我之前从没听说过这个方向，觉得特别有意思。

I guess I'm I do wanna talk about the ethics of astrology briefly because I haven't heard that before, and I'm fascinated by that.

不过我就是随口问问它的运作机制，刚才你说的那个流行心理学相关的内容说得通。

But I guess just more off the cuff than how does it work because that makes sense about pop psychology.

哦不对，是流行占星学，毕竟这种情况在流行心理学里也存在。

Pop astrology because it's true for pop psychology too.

“原生家庭情结（爹味问题）”就是流行心理学里的一个典型例子。

Daddy issues is an example pop psychology.

就好比说，‘啊，原来你会这么做是因为你爸爸以前热爱棒球’，是这种感觉。

It's like, Ah, this is why you act this way because your dad loved baseball.

所以我很好奇，专业的占星师具体是怎么开展工作的？

So I'm curious how would it work from a professional astrologer?

等你讲完这个，我应该还会接着问占星伦理相关的问题，这听起来太有意思了。

Then when you're done with that, I probably will follow-up with the ethics of astrology because that sounds fascinating.

好的。

Sure.

我认为，真正的专业占星师是一群将一生奉献给研究这一领域的人，他们努力理解并尽可能认真地掌握如何应用占星术。他们力求在两种态度之间取得平衡：一方面，基于占星术对人们整体或个体互动时所持有的预设观念；另一方面，把人当作独立的个体来看待，暂时放下占星术，通过观察人的实际行为来了解其性格，以及你们之间关系的本质。我认为，大多数真正对占星术感兴趣的人都在努力做到这种平衡，并且做得相当不错。

I think it's just that astrologers, like actual, let's say, professional astrologers are people that dedicate their lives to studying the subject and trying to figure it out and trying to do their best job being conscientious about learning how to apply it, strive to form a balance between taking into account whatever presuppositions they have based on the astrology when it comes to people in general or making statements or let's say interacting with individuals one on one and balancing that with, you know, approaching people as people and putting astrology aside and letting the actions of people inform you about their character and what the nature of your relationship is gonna be like with them and finding a balance between those two things I think is something that most people are actually into astrology strive to do and do a relatively good job of balancing.

通常只有那些刚接触这一领域或理解非常肤浅的人，才会倾向于认为占星术应该用来简单地分类或排斥他人。

It's just people that are new to the subject or have a very shallow understanding that often tend to think that it should be used to just categorize or to reject somebody.

比如，有人在约会时因为不喜欢某个星座就直接拒绝对方，这就是一种典型的做法。

Like if somebody's using it for dating or something like that and was rejecting somebody because they don't like x sign or something like that.

我不认为大多数占星师会真的这么做。

I don't think that's something that you would find most astrologers doing necessarily.

我觉得你刚刚其实已经回答了我关于占星伦理的问题，这让我觉得非常有道理。

I think you kind of just answered my question about the ethics of it as well, so that makes a lot of sense.

我有个问题想问，因为我身边确实有朋友会做出你刚才提到的那种假设和决定，尤其是在约会时。

Well, do have a question about this because I personally know people who do make the exact type of assumptions and decisions that you're just mentioning, especially while dating.

我认识一个人，他明确表示只愿意和射手座的人约会。作为并非深度参与占星社群的普通人，我看到的更多是这一面，而不是其他更理性的做法。

I personally know someone who says that they will not date anyone who is not a Sagittarius, And that's the experience that I've personally, as not someone who is deeply involved with the astrology community, I see that side more than I see anything else.

然后我就在想，这确实很难，因为我明白你的意思是，随着知识的深入，你可以用更理性、更全面的方式来看待这个问题。

And then I wonder, it's hard because I understand that you're saying, yes, with more education, you can understand to come to this with a more rational and holistic approach.

我不确定这是否是恰当的表达方式，但或许应该采取一种更全面的方法来探讨这个问题。

I don't know if that's necessarily the right language, but a more all encompassing approach to to examining this this question.

但我几乎在想，这种流行心理学的方面，似乎并不是我想说的那个意思，抱歉。

But I I almost wonder, like, the pop psychology aspect, it doesn't seem like it's I'm sorry.

我是在说，你也在做同样的事情，伊恩。

I'm saying doing the same thing, Ian.

这种流行占星的方面，很难想象能让全世界每个人都完美地学会占星的恰当用法。

The pop astrology aspect of this, like, it's hard to imagine perfectly educating the entire world on appropriate use of astrology.

然后我想，占星术是否本身就容易导致一种更强的刻板印象倾向？

And then I wonder, does astrology then lead itself to this tendency, an increased tendency maybe to stereotype people?

这让我一直想起一句话，是一位业余占星师说的，大意是：我根本不了解你，但我仅凭你的星座就对你有了某种看法。

And this is this is this quote that I just keep thinking about, and it's an amateur astrologer saying basically, I don't know you, but I believe something about you based solely on your sign or something like that.

没错。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，问题的一部分在于，占星术在十七、十八世纪逐渐在社会上消亡，从文艺复兴时期极为流行的状态突然跌入低谷，被逐出学术界，此后几个世纪不再被视为一门合法的学科。

I mean, part of the issue is that astrology died out in society in, like, the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries and went into a low point from where it was really popular in the Renaissance to suddenly falling out of favor and getting kicked out of academia and no longer being viewed as a legitimate subject for a couple of centuries.

然后在二十世纪，尤其是在二十世纪四十年代，占星术开始复兴，当时报纸和其他杂志开始推出太阳星座专栏，其前提假设是：你出生时太阳所处的黄道星座，能反映你的性格乃至未来。

And then it had this revival in in the twentieth century starting especially in the nineteen forties when newspapers and other magazines started running Sun sign columns based on the premise that the sign of the zodiac that your Sun was located in at the moment of birth had something to say about your character and and things like that and your future.

这种占星术的复兴越来越受欢迎，因为它计算起来非常简单。

And that was like a revival of astrology that got more and more popular because it's easy to calculate that.

你只需要知道自己的出生日期即可。

All you need to know is your birth date.

你不需要知道出生时间、出生地点，或者其他行星的位置。

You don't have to know your birth time or the birth location or where any of the other planets are.

你只是在看你的出生星盘中的一个部分。

You're just looking at one piece of your birth chart.

这就是占星术重新流行起来的方式，也是大多数人认为占星术的全部内容。

So that's how astrology got repopularized, and that's what most people think astrology is.

他们往往认为占星术就只是这一部分，因此很容易基于这一点产生各种误解或得出不同结论——这其实很常见，无论是占星爱好者用它（或误用它）来谈感情，比如声称‘我绝不和射手座约会’，都是如此。

They tend to think that that's all there is to astrology is just that, and therefore it's easy then to form different misconceptions or come to different conclusions about it just based on that, which is something that's common that everybody does, whether they're fans of astrology who are using it or misusing it in that way with dating, for example, by saying they wouldn't date any Sagittarius.

无论是你遇到的大量怀疑者，还是他们提出的那些基本质疑，都基于一个前提：太阳星座占星术就是占星术的全部，而他们并不知道占星术其实是一个更庞大、更复杂的领域。

Whether it's a lot of skeptics that you run into, lot of the basic skeptic questions that they formulate are based on the premise that Sun sign astrology is the entirety of astrology, not being aware that it's this much larger field that's more complicated.

这个问题的根本在于，在出生图中，太阳只是其中一个星体位置。

The fundamental issue with that is that in the birth chart itself, the Sun is just one placement.

太阳星座只是其中一个位置，而根据不同的分类方式，还有八到九甚至十个不同的行星，它们可能都位于黄道十二宫的不同星座中，从而在最基础的层面上强调不同的星座和特质。

The Sun sign is just one placement, and there's eight or nine or 10 depending on how you're categorizing it different planets that could all be in different signs of the zodiac that are gonna put an emphasis on different zodiacal signs and different qualities, let's say, at just the most basic level.

因此，认为一个人仅由或主要由一个星座代表的基本前提，是对占星术的错误理解。

So it means that the basic premise was kind of mistaken thinking that any one person is only represented or is even primarily represented by one sign of the zodiac is not a true depiction of astrology.

这仅仅是对占星术中一小部分的片面、不完整的描述。

It's just a very partial incomplete depiction of one small piece of it.

所以，这就是为什么那种将某个星座完全排除在恋爱对象之外的做法是一种误解，是一种偏离了正确方向的错误认知，而这种错误正是源于对占星术缺乏了解。

So that's one of the reasons why that approach of excluding all x sign from dating or what have you is a misconception and is taking it in a weird, inaccurate direction, but it's just based on that lack of familiarity with it.

显然，这种现象与过去一个世纪占星术重新流行的方式密切相关。

Obviously, that's something that comes along with how astrology was repopularized over the past century.

在某种程度上，这种简化是占星术复兴的必要条件，因为它让占星术得以重新回归，并继续在不同人的生活中发挥作用；而这也常常成为人们接触占星术的起点——有些占星师最初就是从这里入手，随后才发现原来还有月亮星座、水星星座，进而了解到本命占星的概念，从而开始深入探索占星术的真正内涵。

And to some extent, that was a necessity for astrology because that's how it came back again and still plays some role in different people's lives, and that often ends up being the entry point where some astrologers occasionally will look into that, and then they'll find out that there's a Moon sign as well or that there's a Mercury sign, or then they'll discover the concept of natal astrology, and then they'll start looking more into the subject to see what it's actually about.

所以对大多数占星师来说，太阳星座占星术往往就是他们接触更进阶占星形式的入门途径。

So that's oftentimes Sun sign astrology is the entryway into the more advanced forms of astrology for most astrologers.

从这个角度来看，它还是起到了一些积极作用的，尽管与此同时它有时也会带来负面的影响。

So in that way, it plays some positive role even though it's also sometimes playing a negative role at the same time.

好消息是，在过去二十年里，尤其是近五年，有一些更进阶的占星概念似乎开始进入大众视野、流行起来。

The good news is that over the course of the past twenty years and especially even the past five years, it seems like there's some astrological concepts that are coming into the public consciousness or becoming popular that are a little bit more advanced.

就说这过去五年里，越来越多人不光知道自己的太阳星座，还了解到自己还有月亮星座和上升星座。

So just in the past five years, it's become more common for people to know not just their Sun sign, but also that they have a Moon sign and a rising sign.

这种变化的出现，一部分要归功于那些能免费帮你计算出生星盘的网站。放在以前，占星师得手动计算星盘，要翻遍各种书籍、星表和天文资料，得花上一两个小时才能完成。后来到了20世纪70年代左右，你可以花钱买一份计算机生成的报告，但那也得在老式点阵打印机上花一个小时才能打印出来。

And some of that is happening as a result of both websites that will calculate your birth chart for you for free, which used to be a thing either that astrologers had to calculate by hand that would take like an hour or two using a bunch of different books and tables and astronomical things, or eventually it was like starting in the 1970s, something you could buy a computerized report that would take like an hour to print out on an old dot matrix printer.

但如今，在过去二十年里，你突然就能免费获取星盘了；而近五年里，还出现了不少热门应用，你只要输入自己的出生信息，一开始就能马上知道自己的太阳星座、月亮星座和上升星座。这带来了一种转变，相关的讨论突然就变得更深入、也更复杂了一些。

But nowadays, in the past twenty years, suddenly it's something you can get for free, or in the past five years, it's become something where there's popular apps where you can enter your birth data and suddenly you know your Sun, Moon, and rising right from start, and that's caused a shift where suddenly the discussions are becoming a little bit more advanced and a little bit more complicated.

如果说以前大家只知道自己的太阳星座这一个影响因素，现在所有人都清楚了自己的太阳、月亮和上升星座，那你默认认知里占星学包含的参考点就直接翻了三倍，在基础层面上，你觉得用来构成一个人性格的相关星座数量也变多了。

If you're going from one factor of just knowing your Sun sign to all of a sudden everybody knows their Sun, Moon, and rising, you've just tripled your data points for what you think astrology is by default and how many signs of the zodiac you think are relevant in terms of composing somebody's personality at a basic level.

过去这几周我研究占星学时很喜欢的一点，就是它和很多精神分析、心理学理论里的三元框架能对上，比如本我、自我、超我的概念，还有拉康理论里的想象界、实在界、象征界。

This is one of the things that I've enjoyed about studying astrology for the past couple of weeks is these parallels with triptych that you find in a lot of psychoanalysis and psychology, this idea of the ego, the superego and the id, and this idea of lacons, the imaginary, the real, and the symbolic.

正如我们昨天与其他一位占星师朋友讨论的那样，他谈到了你的太阳星座、月亮星座，以及它们如何反映你如何看待自己，以及他人如何看待你。

As we spoke yesterday with our other astrologer friend who talked about your Sun sign, your Moon sign, something along the lines of how you see yourself and how other people perceive you.

在我看来，心理学与占星学之间存在着许多相似之处。

And it seems to me like there are a lot of parallels between psychology and astronomy.

当我们问人们为什么对占星感兴趣时，其中一个常见的回答是：他们是因为心理学才对占星产生兴趣的。

And one of the answers that we get when we ask people about this is that they're interested in astrology because of psychology.

那你对此有什么看法？

So what are your thoughts on that?

你是为什么选择占星而不是心理学？毕竟你对人类行为、个性和特质都有浓厚的兴趣。

Like, why did you pick astrology over psychology with this, like, interest in, like, you know, human behavior and, like, personality and characteristics?

当然。

Sure.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这确实是占星学的一种形式或组成部分，但我们也必须谨慎，因为另一点是：尽管大多数流行占星都侧重于性格分析，或者更广泛地说，是心理学或心理分析。

I mean, there's some That's like a type of astrology or it's a piece of astrology, although we have to be careful also because that's another thing where even though most, pop astrology is oriented towards character analysis or broadly, by extension, psychology or psychological analysis.

并不是所有的占星术或所有的占星师都专注于性格分析或心理分析。

Not all astrology or not all astrologers focus on character analysis or psychological analysis.

还有其他的占星师。

There's other astrologers.

例如，我提到了理查德·塔纳斯，他做了《宇宙与灵魂》的研究，探讨了外行星周期如何与不同历史时期的世界大事变迁相吻合。

For example, I mentioned Richard Tarnas, did that study Cosmos and Psyche, where he was looking at outer planet cycles and how that's matched up with shifts in world history at different points.

这属于另一个分支，称为世俗占星术，其动机主要并非心理学导向。

That's a separate branch called mundane astrology, which really isn't primarily psychological in its motivation.

所以我只是想澄清一下，并非所有占星师都是因为心理学而被吸引，或选择将其用于心理目的，尽管在二十世纪的占星术中，这确实是主要焦点。

So I just wanted to clarify that, that not all astrologers are necessarily drawn to it due to psychology or choose to use it for psychological purposes, even though in twentieth century astrology that was the main focus.

当占星术在二十世纪复兴时，它与深度心理学的兴起几乎是同时发生的。

When astrology was revived in the twentieth century, it was revived around the same time that depth psychology was getting going.

因此，现代占星师更多地将其用于性格分析和心理分析。

So astrologers have tended to use it much more for character analysis and psychological analysis in modern times.

但在古代，占星术更侧重于预测，尽管预测也只是其中的一部分。

But in ancient times, it was more predictive even though that was a piece of it.

但你之前提出的一个与之相关、现在值得回答的问题是：我们真的必须问这个问题吗？为什么不直接专注于心理学，直击核心呢？

But one of your questions that ties into that that's worth answering now was, know, do we have to ask and why not just focus solely on psychology and get to right to the heart of it?

我想，这个问题的部分答案是：想象一下，你坐下来，准备与一位心理学家或精神分析师交谈，试图解决一些问题，或者他们试图了解你，并为你形成某种评估或心理画像，然后你打算与他们合作。

And I guess part of the answer to that question is, you know, imagine sitting down with a psychologist or psychoanalyst that you're going to talk with and try to work through some issues, or they're gonna try to get to know you and form some sort of assessment or psychological profile of you, and you're gonna attempt to work with them.

这位心理学家将努力与你合作，理解你的背景、你作为一个人所面临的核心问题，以及这些过去经历如何影响你现在的生活，还有你正在努力应对的持续模式和各种事项。

And the psychologist is gonna attempt to work with you to understand, let's say, some of your background and what some of your core issues are that you struggle with as a person and how that's affecting you, what happened earlier in your life and how that's affecting you now as an adult, and what ongoing patterns and things you're trying to work out.

所以，当他们从零开始时，对你的了解一片空白。

So that's something When they start from ground one, have nothing.

他们从零出发，对你这个人一无所知，然后尽其所能逐步构建起对你的理解。

They work from scratch being completely in the dark about who you are as a person, and then they build up to the best of their ability.

比如，每周或每两周一次、每次一小时的会谈中，逐渐形成对你这个人的一些认识。

Let's say, in a one hour session every week or every other week, some idea of who you are as a person.

但如果这位心理学家能拥有某种‘捷径’——不是作弊小抄，而是某种能帮助他们理解你部分心理复杂性或某些持续影响你生活的关键因素的工具，哪怕只涉及一小部分，这对你作为心理学家来说会有帮助吗？你会不会使用或考虑这种信息？

But what if that psychologist did have any sort of, let's say, not cheat sheet, but let's say shortcut to understanding some of Even if it was only a small percentage of your psychological complexes or some of the core factors that are still playing an important role that are reoccurring themes in your life as a person from a psychological standpoint, would that be useful to you as a psychologist and would you use that or take it into account?

我认为，如果这类工具是正确的，或者哪怕只是有一点点可信度，它的吸引力显然是显而易见的。

And I think the appeal of something like that, assuming it's correct or assuming it does have any legitimacy whatsoever, the appeal of that I think would be clear.

所以，顺着这个想法，如果有额外的信息可以帮助进行分析，那其他形式呢？

So I guess following up on this idea of just having extra information to help make an analysis, what about other forms?

也许这完全不属于同一个话题领域，但那些处理类似问题的其他信仰体系或实践方式呢？

And maybe this is just totally out of the same field of conversation or the same topic, but what about alternative belief systems, alternative practices that deal with similar issues?

我主要想到塔罗牌，因为我看到很多占星师也会使用塔罗牌，我不知道该怎么称呼那些人。

I'm thinking primarily of tarot because I've seen a lot of correlations between astrologers will also be tarot I don't know what you call those people.

塔罗牌

Tarot

人。

people.

我觉得是塔罗牌占卜师。

Tarot readers, I think.

塔罗牌占卜师。

Tarot readers.

那还有通灵者、手相术和巫术呢？

And then and then also, what about psychics and palmistry and witchcraft?

这些不同的领域在张 diagrams 中是否看起来有重叠？我甚至不确定该怎么称呼它们，我不太想用‘神秘主义’这个词，因为我不确定这会不会冒犯人。

Do all of these various fields seem overlapping in the Venn diagram ofI'm not even sure what to callI don't want say mysticism because I'm not sure if that's offensive.

看来，说‘神秘主义’是冒犯人的吗？

Guess, apparently, is that offensive to say mysticism?

对某些人来说可能是，但也不一定。

Maybe for some people, but not necessarily.

可能有更好的说法，比如‘另类灵性’或‘新时代运动’之类的，不过也不是所有这些都属于新时代运动。

There's probably a better phrase which is, I don't know, alternative spirituality or the New Age movement or something like that, although not all of that falls into the New Age.

当然。

Sure.

好的。

Okay.

那么，使用这些框架中的一个，塔罗牌、通灵者和手相术又如何呢？

Well, then using one of those frameworks, what about tarot and psychics and palmistry?

这些信仰主要是你个人持有的吗？你认为它们通常与占星术兼容吗？

Are these beliefs primarily that you have personally, and do you think that those are compatible with astrology generally?

是的

Yeah.

我认为占星术是独立的，是一种独特的事物，有时会与其他领域重叠或产生互动。

So I think astrology is its own thing and is its own unique thing that does sometimes overlap or has interactions with other fields.

其中一个问题是，在二十世纪初，也就是十九世纪末到二十世纪初，占星术复兴时，部分是在新兴的新纪元运动以及对替代哲学和灵性、神智学协会等兴趣的背景下复兴的。

One of the issues is that in the early twentieth century, in the nineteen hundreds, when astrology was revived, it was partially revived within the context of the growing New Age movement and an interest in alternative philosophies and spiritualities and the Theosophical Society and things like that.

因此，当占星术复兴时，它是在对多种替代性灵性事物产生兴趣的同一时期被重新带入公众视野的。

So when astrology was revived, it sort of was revived at the same time under the banner of interest in a bunch of different alternative spiritualities and things like that.

这导致了这些事物被与占星术归为一类，或经常被并列看待，即使历史上它们并不总是如此，即使它们本质上也未必紧密关联——也就是说，你并不需要接受其中一个才能接受另一个。

So that that's had an impact in terms of then those things being grouped together with astrology or often going hand in hand even if they weren't always like that in history and even if they aren't necessarily intimately interlinked, you know, that you have to accept one in order to accept the other.

这并不一定成立。

That's not necessarily true.

有些占星师只做占星，完全不涉及其他那些内容，也没有那些其他信仰。

There's astrologers that just do astrology, and they don't do any of that other stuff or have any of those other beliefs.

也有纯粹的穆斯林占星师。

There's astrologers who are just like a straight Muslim astrologer.

有些占星师从统计学角度研究占星术，比如二十世纪中期的米歇尔·古克林，他曾对占星术进行过统计测试。

There's some astrologers that focus on astrology from a statistical standpoint like Michel Gouklin in the mid twentieth century who ran statistical tests of astrology.

有些占星师只专注于占星术的历史或其他相关领域，因此存在多种不同的研究方法。

There's some astrologers that just focus on the history of astrology or what have you, so there's many different approaches.

尽管存在重叠，但这主要是由于过去一个世纪占星术在特定文化背景下复兴所致。

Even though there is overlap, it's just partially due to the cultural context in which astrology was revived over the past century.

因此，如果占星术是一种占卜形式，而许多占星师也视其为占卜，那么一旦它成立，就可能让你开始认为：如果占星术有效，那么其他一些占卜形式也可能有效或相关。

So that being said, to the extent that if astrology is a form of divination and many astrologers view it as a form of divination, to the extent that it's true, it can open you up to Like, if astrology works, then maybe some of these other forms of divination might work as well or might be relevant.

所以，这是一种情况：如果象征性思维或行星与地球事件之间的象征性关联确实有效，那么有些人就会进一步推论，认为其他占卜形式也基于类似的原理——比如洗牌后抽出一张塔罗牌，这张牌具有某种象征意义，而这个意义恰好与你当时所思考的问题相符，能很好地描述它并揭示未来的某些信息。

So it's one of those things where sometimes if something like symbolic thinking or symbolic correlations between planets and earthly events, if that can work, then some people then extend that to say that other forms of divination are based on a similar premise that you shuffle the cards and you pull out x tarot card, which is supposed to have x symbolic meaning, and that meaning actually happens to coincide with this issue that you were thinking about at that moment in time and describes it pretty well and tells you something about the future.

我的背景不是塔罗牌，所以我说得不够好，这也不是我经常接触的内容。

So my background isn't in taro, so I'm not explaining that very well, that's not something I've ever done much with.

但我至少明白，占星术有时能让人开始关注其他类似的事物，因为它消除了人们对‘什么有效、什么无效’的一些先入之见。

But I at least see that sometimes astrology can open people up to looking into other things like that because it removes some preconceptions about what works or what doesn't work.

但当涉及到通灵者、塔罗牌或其他类似事物时，情况就变得非常复杂了。

But it gets really tricky when it comes to things like psychics or tarot cards or other things like that.

这是因为占星术有一个支撑它立足、也让它区别于其他占卜形式的核心特点：行星的排列与运行轨迹是客观存在的事物，具备可预测性，无论在任何情况下都成立——它在今天成立，和两千年前一样，你也同样可以预测出两千年后行星的位置。

Because one of the issues about astrology that keeps it grounded and makes it unique compared to other forms of divination is that the alignments of the planets, the movements of the planets is something that's external and is predictable and is true no matter what and will be true today just as it was two thousand years ago just as you can predict where the planets will be two thousand years from now.

所以占星术本身存在这样一个独立于其他一切事物的客观要素。

So there's this objective component to it that exists out there independent of anything else.

其他形式的占卜或类似事物并不总是具备这个特点。

That's not always true of other forms of divination or things like that.

因此，即便占星术部分基于占卜的逻辑，它也被归到了一个奇特又独特的类别里。

So it puts astrology in a weird, unique category even if it's partially based on divination.

况且部分天文现象背后确实存在物理层面的因果机制，但我并不认为占星术主要能靠某种未知的因果机制来解释。

In addition to the fact that there is some causal physical mechanism underlying some astronomical things, even though I don't think astrology can primarily be explained through even some sort of unknown causal mechanism.

举个例子来说，季节更替、太阳运行都会影响植物的生长；还有一年中不同时段的季节变化、白昼时长这些因素，都是实实在在的。

But for example, the seasons and the movement of the Sun and the effect that that has on the growth of plants and plant life or the different seasons and the length of daytime and daylight that's available during different parts of the year and things like that.

所以占星术有个特别的地方，它本身确实存在一些能说得通的因果关联，这是塔罗牌这类其他占卜形式不具备的特点。

So astrology has this weird thing where there are some causal factors that are relevant as well, which is not true in other forms of divination like tarot.

对。

Yeah.

这其实是个很直接的问题，但你觉得占星术能如何帮助人们？

This is kind of really just like a point blank question, but how do you think astrology can help people?

我觉得对每个实践者或对它感兴趣的人来说，占星术的意义可能都不太一样？

I feel like it means something different a little bit to everybody that practices it or has an interest in it?

我只是很好奇，想听听一位占星师的看法，就像我会问作家文学如何帮助人们一样。

And this is just something I'm curious to hear from an astrologer, the way I might ask a writer how literature helps people.

是的。

Yeah.

这个问题有很多不同的答案。

There's many different answers to that.

我多年来一直思考的一个观点，有时会和我女朋友争论，但这也和你的背景有关。

Mean, one that I've thought of for many years, I sometimes have debates about with my girlfriend, but it with my partner, but it relates to part of your your backgrounds.

但我觉得其中一个可能有用或相关的结论是：如果占星术的前提成立，尤其是出生星盘的前提成立——即一个人出生时行星的排列与其未来、性格和人生轨迹有关——那就意味着某些事情是更有计划性的，或者存在某种后台代码、矩阵，或者你愿意怎么解释都行，它在后台运行，为一个人的生命安排了一连串有意义的事件。

But one of the things I think could be a conclusion from it that might be helpful or relevant is that if the premise of astrology is true, and especially the premise of natal astrology is true, that the alignment of the planets at the moment that a person is born has something to say about their future and the nature and the course of their life, it does imply that some things are a little bit more planned out, or there might be some sort of background code or matrix or however you wanna explain it that's running in the background that sets up a a sort of meaningful sequence of events in a person's life.

只要这一点成立，那么我们生命中发生的某些事件，可能比我们通常认为的更有意义、更刻意、更有目的性。

And to whatever extent that's true, if it was true, it could imply that some of the events that take place in our lives are more meaningful and deliberate and purposeful than we would otherwise have any normal reason to think.

它可能暗示了我们生活中某种更广泛的意义和目的，而这本质上就是命运。

It could be indicating some sort of broader sense of meaning and purpose to our lives, and that would be essentially what fate is.

这就是一些古代哲学家，比如斯多葛学派，将命运描述为按照某种计划或理性对事件进行的有意义的安排。

And that's how some of the ancient philosophers, like the Stoics, described fate as a meaningful ordering of events in accordance with some sort of plan or some sort of rationale.

因此，在试图思考如果占星术为真，其潜在意义会是什么时，我尝试的一种表述是：如果占星术在任何程度上是真实的，那么它可能意味着宇宙中的现象与我们世界中的事件，比另一种主流观点更具意义——那种观点认为，世界上的事件毫无意义，只是宇宙中一块岩石上漂浮的、由虚无偶然产生的有机物质碎片。

So in trying to think about what the underlying significance of astrology would be if it was true, one of the ways that I've tried to formulate that is just that if astrology was true to any extent, then it could imply that what's happening in the cosmos and the events that happen in our world could be a little bit more meaningful rather than the alternative option, which is the typical prevailing one at this point in time, which is just that events in the world are meaningless, were just specks of you know, organic matter that's floating around on a rock in the middle of the universe that came about as a result of nothing.

我们生命中唯一的意义，只是我们主观赋予它的意义；除此之外，我们生命中发生的任何事情都没有客观的意义、目的或理由。

And the only meaning that any of our lives has is the subjective meaning that we give to it, Otherwise, there is no objective meaning or purpose or reason for any of the things that happen in any of our lives.

这一切都只是随机的，这本身是一个合理的立场，通常也是我的默认立场。

It's all just kind of random, which is a fine position and normally would be my default position.

但占星术或许能指向宇宙中某种其他正在发生的事情，这可能是占星术在更深层意义上最伟大、最相关的哲学、科学或其他方面的意义。

But there could be something about astrology that could point to something else going on in the universe, and that could be one of the greatest philosophical or scientific or other things that could be relevant about astrology in some deeper, deeper way.

所以，我理解为，它是一个创造意义的表达与研究领域。

So it's a meaning making field of expression and study is what I'm hearing.

它通过赋予你一种意义感而有所帮助，尤其是当你正经历困境时。

That it's helpful by giving you a sense of meaning if maybe you're struggling.

这是否是总结这一点的恰当方式？

Is that maybe an appropriate way to summarize that?

是的，我认为这可能是它有用或有帮助的一种方式：它可能表明，一个人生活中的某些事件背后可能存在某种意义。对某些人来说，这种想法可能令人安心、有帮助或值得知晓；而另一种选择或解释是，有些人可能会觉得这并不好接受。

Yeah, I think that's one of the ways that it could be useful or helpful is it could show that there could be some meaning underlying events in a person's life sometimes, And something like that for some people could be felt as reassuring or helpful or good to know versus there's an alternative option or alternative interpretation which is that some people could find that that's not good to know.

他们可能不想去想，自己生活中的某些事件可能是预定的或命定的，这种想法可能让人感到束缚，恰恰相反。

They might not want to think about the idea that some events in their life could be predetermined or foreordained or what have you that could feel constraining and could feel the opposite.

我想，这取决于我们谈论的是哪些事件，以及你从什么角度看待它。

I guess it's just a matter of what events we're talking about and what perspective you're looking at it from.

对。

Right.

有趣的是，我们之前举办过一场关于召唤恶魔的沉浸式活动，并与一些女祭司进行了交谈。

Well, it's interesting too because we did a camp on immersion into demon summoning, and we spoke with some of the high priestess.

而且，我想你的一些听众可能已经翻白眼了。

And basically and I, you know, I imagine maybe some of your listeners are already rolling their eyes.

他们会觉得：这不真实。

They're like, that's not real.

你知道的。

You know?

随便吧。

Whatever.

但我们正在努力。

Well, we're trying here.

但她 basically 告诉我们的是，我们可能太封闭了，无法感受到正在发挥作用的灵性恶魔力量。

But what what what basically what she had told us was that, we're effectively probably too closed off to to feel the spiritual demonic forces at play.

我在想，占星术中是否也可能存在类似的情况。

And I'm wondering if something similar might exist in astrology.

我猜不会，但我只是好奇。

My guess is no, but I'm just curious.

即使不相信占星术，如果占星力量在影响我们，而我们从信念上对此封闭，是否仍能从中获益？

Even if not believing in astrology, are there benefits being guess, are the astrological forces working on us even if we are closed off from it from a belief perspective?

是的。

Yeah.

作为一名占星师，我得说，无论你们有没有看过自己的出生星盘，或是查看过人生不同阶段的行运星象以及它们预示的可能发生的事件，这些星象影响都始终存在、持续发挥作用——就好比一台机械时钟背后运转的后台机制。

I would say as an astrologer that whether you guys ever look at your birth chart or not, or look at your transits for different times in your life and what that would indicate about what types of events might be taking place, that that will be happening and working out there sort of like the background behind, let's say, a mechanical clock.

哪怕你永远只盯着时钟的表盘，只能看清那两根指示时间的指针，表盘背后依然有上百个齿轮在运转、联动，把所有部件协调到位，不管你有没有关注这些幕后的结构，它们都一直在工作。

And even if you only ever look at the face of that clock and only see the two hands that tell you what time it is, there's still gears, you know, like a 100 gears working behind that that are lining those things up, whether you're paying attention to the background stuff or not.

所以，没错，哪怕人们不去关注占星相关的内容，它的影响也依然存在，我是这么认为的。

So, yeah, it can work even independently of people paying attention to it, think.

我太喜欢这个时钟的比喻了。

I love that metaphor of the clock.

这太棒了，尤其是想到轨道这类东西的时候。

That's so nice, especially thinking of orbitals and stuff like that.

你在脑补行星的运转轨迹。

You're thinking about rotations in planets.

想想这种可能性就真的很有意思——

Really interesting to think about whether

是否真的存在

or not

不管你有没有留意，钟表依然在滴答走动。

you pay attention to it one way or the other, clock still ticks.

我觉得这个说法让我很有共鸣。

I think that resonates with me.

是的。

Yeah.

我经常试着为占星术找一个比喻，尽管这听起来有点陈词滥调，但像这样的比喻——比如一个在后台运行的钟表——如果占星术真的有效，那它很可能就是类似的东西，但又比这更复杂，因为一个更现代的类比，不至于太夸张，听起来就像《黑客帝国》那样的东西，如果你能看到现实背后的代码，那些描述当时正在发生的一切的零散信息。

I often try to think of what a metaphor is for astrology, even though it gets cliche, there's metaphors like that that are probably relevant about what it actually probably is if it's true that it works, that it's something like that, like a clock that's working in the background, but it's more complicated than that because, like, a better modern analogy is like it would be Not to get too out there, but it sounds like the matrix or something like that, where if you could see the code behind reality that was showing you all the bits and pieces that were describing what's happening at that time.

占星术某种程度上就是这样一种方式。

That's kind of what astrology is a way.

如果占星术将来能被任何方式证实，那这大概是我能想到的、最贴近它本质的类比了。

If astrology was ever validated in any way, that's probably the closest analogy I can come up with to what it probably is on some level.

有时候，当我思考用来描述占星术如何看待行星、宇宙、太阳系以及所有正在发生的事情的语言时，似乎有时会给人格化或拟人化的印象——如果我发音正确的话。

Sometimes when I think about the language used to describe how astrology is thinking about the planets and the universe and the solar system and everything that's happening, seems to be sometimes a personification or anthropomorphizing, if I'm pronouncing that correctly.

你明白我想表达的意思吧。

Know what I'm trying to say.

我总是从宗教的角度来思考占星术，不禁怀疑占星术是否像宗教一样提供道德指引。

And I always end up thinking of astrology religiously, and I can't help but wonder if astrology provides moral guidance in the same way a religion might.

道德指引？

Moral guidance?

你能举个例子吗？

Could you give an example?

正如谢伊所说，我不是特别宗教的人，但像基督教这样的宗教有很多教义，比如‘爱你的邻居’。

As Shaye said, I'm not much of a religious person, but there's plenty of tenets like Christianity, love thy neighbor.

还有很多。

There's more.

我知道还有

I know there's

更多。

more.

我

I

我不太记得具体的

don't know them off the

脱口而出。

top of my head.

但确实，基督教、犹太教、伊斯兰教、佛教都有许多教义、规则和指导，我在想占星术里是否也有类似的东西。

But yeah, there are certainly tenants, rules, guidance provided by Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, and I'm wondering if there's something similar in astrology.

对。

Right.

我在想是否存在这样的东西。

I'm trying to think if there is.

问题是，占星术本身是非常中立的。

Mean, the problem is that astrology itself is very neutral.

它只是说有行星在那里运行，并且与某些事情相关联。

It's just like there's planets, they're happening out there, and they're correlating with stuff.

我知道还有另一个层面，但就这些了，到此为止。

I I do know there's another level, and that's really it, full stop.

差不多就是这样。

That's kind of it.

它只是自然界中发生的一种现象。

It's just this thing that's happening out there in nature.

这是一种自然的属性，似乎在不依赖意识的情况下运作，仿佛在现实之下运行。

It's some sort of property of nature that's happening that doesn't require awareness of it, it seems to be operating sort of below reality.

有些占星师试图制定伦理准则或从中得出结论，但通常他们会在其上叠加其他宗教或哲学观念，比如业力、轮回之类的东西。

There are astrologers that sometimes try to develop ethical codes codes of ethics or try to draw conclusions from it, but that usually involves incorporating other religious or philosophical things that they put on top of it, such as ideas of karma and reincarnation and other stuff like that.

但这些通常是他们自己从占星术中推导出的结论——这些结论未必被所有占星师接受，或者他们试图引入其他既有的哲学和宗教信条，希望与占星术并用。

But those are usually things that are either they're trying to draw conclusions from the astrology themselves, which may or may not be accepted by all astrologers, or they're trying to import other preexisting philosophical and religious precepts that they they want to use in tandem with the astrology.

但我并不确定这些内容是否真正源自占星术本身。

But I'm not sure that that's necessarily something that's inherently being derived from the astrology itself.

我很高兴听到你用了‘中立’这个词，因为我在做研究时，记得曾遇到一位相当知名的连续性占星师。

I am relieved by the use of that phrase of it being neutral because I do know that while I was doing research, I think I encountered I can't remember her name, but a relatively popular serial astrologist.

她热情洋溢地谈论宇宙如何站在你这一边。

And she was gushing about how the universe is on your side.

至于我的怀疑，我当时就想：我不知道。

And in terms of my skepticism, I was like, I don't know.

但我知道，它确实吸引了一部分受众。我们在做研究时反复遇到的一个统计数据是，女性似乎比男性更有可能相信占星术，我们只是想知道，你认为这可能是为什么呢？

But, yeah, I do know that appeals to a certain audience, and one of the statistics that we kept running into when we were doing our research is that women are apparently more likely than men to subscribe to astrology, and we're just wondering why you think that might be the case.

是的。

Yeah.

我不确定这在多大程度上是占星术本身固有的特性，还是仅仅源于过去一个世纪占星术复兴时的文化背景——包括它被复兴的方式，以及它如何经常通过时尚杂志等渠道向女性推广，比如那些至今仍刊登星座专栏的杂志？

I can't tell how much of that is something that's natural or inherent to astrology or if it's only a result of just the cultural context of astrology and its revival over the past century the way in which it was revived, as well as the way in which it was often marketed to women through, like, you know, fashion magazines that still carry, like, horoscope columns or what was it?

就像《Vogue》或《Cosmopolitan》。

It's like a Vogue or Cosmopolitan.

《Cosmo》确实一直有这样一个版块，而且最近还进一步扩大了这个版块。

Cosmo, yeah, has a has a they've they've always had a section, but they recently even expanded their section.

但好像没有类似的平行版块出现在……我不知道的什么杂志里。

And there's no like similar parallel section in like whatever I don't know.

男性杂志叫什么？

What's a men's magazine?

比如《花花公子》之类的杂志。

Like Playboy or something like that.

它们没有从男性角度出发的星座专栏。

They don't have like a horoscope column that tells you from the guy's perspective.

但我不知道这在多大程度上是因为女性天生某种意义上更容易被星座吸引，或者一个非怀疑论者，比如爱好者，可能会说女性更富有直觉之类的。

But I don't know how much that's because women are naturally in some way more, you know, a skeptic would say, susceptible to astrology or a non skeptic, let's say, an enthusiast might say that women are more intuitive or something like that.

我不知道这些观点是否成立，或者这是否只是过去一个世纪以来我们文化的一种副作用，与星座的复兴及其近几十年来对性格分析和心理学的侧重有关。

I don't know if if any of those arguments are true or if it's just a side effect of our culture over the past century and something about the revival of astrology and its orientation towards character analysis and psychology in the past few decades.

因为有趣的是，如果你回溯到上个世纪或两个世纪之前，历史上所有的占星师都是男性。

Because one of the funny things about that is that if you go back prior to the last century or two, all the astrologers in history were men.

所以女性通常没有接受同样的教育，甚至在历史上任何时候都没有能力去研究占星术，而占星术我必须提醒，在现代之前，是需要高深的数学和天文学训练才能进行出生图计算的。

So women were not usually given the same education and didn't have the same even ability to study astrology at all times, which astrology, I have to remember prior to modern times, was something that required advanced mathematical and astronomical training in order to do the calculations necessary in order to calculate birth charts.

所以回溯历史，你会发现许多著名的科学家和天文学家，比如约翰内斯·开普勒或克劳狄乌斯·托勒密，同时也是占星师，因为你必须非常精通天文学才能完成这些计算。

And so, you go back in history, there's actually a lot of famous scientists and astronomers like Johannes Kepler or Claudius Ptolemy who were also astrologers because you had to be pretty good at astronomy in order to calculate stuff necessary.

在过去的几个世纪之前，当我撰写关于希腊化占星术的书时，我试图找出我们所知的第一位女性占星师是谁。

Prior to the past few centuries, when I wrote my book on Hellenistic astrology, I tried to find who was the first woman that we know of that was a practicing astrologer.

尽管占星术可以追溯到公元前2000年左右，但我能找到的第一位女性占星师直到公元五世纪才出现，她可能是著名天文学家亚历山大的塞翁的女儿希帕提娅，她最终被一群基督教暴徒杀害，当时基督教正在兴起，人们指控她用星盘做些诡异的事情，甚至涉及恶魔之类的行为。

And it took until Even though astrology goes back to 2000, March, the first one I was able to find wasn't until the fifth century, and it was a maybe for Hypatia who was the daughter of a famous astronomer at the time named Theon of Alexandria, and she ended up being killed by a Christian mob who was riled up partially under the premise that she was doing weird stuff with astrolabes and something else, like demon stuff, because that was at the point where Christianity was really on the rise.

接下来我能找到的下一位女性占星师则要等到九世纪，她是中东地区一位国王的妻子或公主，名叫巴格达的布兰。

And then the next one I was able to find wasn't until the ninth century, and it was a princess or the wife of a king at the time in the Middle East, and her name was Buran of Baghdad.

关于她曾通过占星手段挫败对国王的暗杀行动，有一个传说，但这一说法可能属实，也可能不实。

There's a legend about her thwarting an assassination attempt on the king through astrological means, which may or may not be correct.

但仅就历史而言，占星术在很大程度上是由男性从事的，这是由于历史上大多数时期女性受到教育限制。

But just to give you an example, historically, astrology tended to be something that was done by men as far as we know due to the educational restrictions on women through most of history.

因此，如今占星术的主要消费者群体转向女性，这与此前的历史情况形成了有趣的逆转。

So that it switched primarily to women at this point as consumers is an interesting reversal of what it may have been up to this point.

这确实很有趣，因为当我回想起自己第一次接触占星术时，我记得是在中学或高中时，我的女性朋友主动来找我。

It is really interesting because when I even think about my first exposure to astrology, I think of being in middle school or high school and having my female friends come up to me.

对话通常就是这样开始的，这可能正是你提到的原因——当时占星术是通过《Cosmo》这类杂志进行营销的。

The conversation would start normally that way, and that's probably because of what you're talking about, the Cosmo magazines or where it was marketed then.

但当你在谈论这些时，我正好也在思考这个问题，这挺有意思的。

But it's interesting because I was thinking about it while you're talking about it.

似乎历史上，占星术需要大量的教育背景，直到现代之前都是如此。

It does seem that the historical trend seems to be that astrology required a great deal of education just historically until the modern era.

它与科学和数学紧密相连，而很多女性在过去并没有像我们现在这样获得同等的接触机会。

It was so tied to science and math, something that a lot of women didn't have the same access to that we have now.

所以我不确定。

So I don't know.

我在想，我还在纠结于它的衰落究竟发生在什么时候，为什么现在女性会成为占星术的主要消费者。

I'm wondering if I'm wondering if it's decline I'm struggling still to see where where the switch happens there, like why it is that women now are are such are such consumers of astrology.

用资本主义的术语来讨论这个问题，感觉有点奇怪。

And it's weird to use a capitalism term to talk about this.

这真的显得很不协调。

It really feels incongruous.

但我不确定。

But I don't know.

这其中有些东西，我还在梳理这些想法。

There's something about it, and I'm still working these ideas out.

我觉得这里面一定和有毒的男性气质有关，因为这从来就不像是为我而存在的。

I feel like there has to be something about toxic masculinity in there because it never felt like it was for me.

我觉得我总是被邀请，但这种邀请往往会引来一些嘲笑。

I think I was always invited, but it was an invitation that would be met with some ridicule.

是的。

Sure.

我的意思是，尽管说了这么多，可能确实有些道理。

I mean, there there may be something to it's like all of that being said.

可能确实有某种原因，但我不想深入讨论现代性别差异的问题，比如关于男性和女性的各种讨论之类的事情。

There may be something to I don't know because I I don't wanna get into some you start I tried to do an episode about this, but sometimes it starts treading on issues with modern gender distinctions and discussion about men and women and different things like that.

也许其中一个被提出的观点是，女性可能更倾向于内省，或者天生更感兴趣于审视自己的情绪状态以及它如何影响事物，诸如此类。

There could be some Let's say one of the things that's put forward is maybe women are more predisposed towards being more introspective or more inherently interested in examining their emotional state and how that's affecting things or something like that.

因此，也许现代占星术在重新兴起时，重点不再是硬核预测，而是太阳星座占星和流行占星更侧重于性格分析和心理学，这可能更吸引女性而非男性。

And so maybe the fact that modern astrology when it was reconstituted was not something that was about hardcore prediction, but the fact that Sun sign astrology and pop astrology was more about character analysis and psychology, maybe that is something that appealed more to women than it did to men.

而在占星界内部，一旦你超越了流行占星，有时会发现男性更容易深入硬核预测型占星，比如相信可以预测未来、掌控命运之类，他们更倾向于用占星来做一些更具体、更少自我反思的事情。

And sometimes in the astrological community itself, once you get past pop astrology, you know, sometimes there can be a tendency for men to get into it and be very interested in hardcore predictive astrology and the idea that you can predict the future or control your fate or something like that so that they're trying to do something with it that's more concrete and less self reflective in some way.

我不知道这是否准确，所以我不想过度强调这一点。

I don't know if that's actually accurate, so I don't wanna push that too far.

我只是说，如果男女之间确实存在这样的不同动态，也许这与此有关。

But I'm just saying maybe it has something to do with different dynamics like that if they exist between men and women.

我不知道，也不确定要说清楚，因为我并不想惹麻烦，引发一场大辩论，但谁知道呢？

I don't know, and I don't wanna say for sure because I'm not trying to get in trouble and start a major debate here, but who knows?

是的。

Yeah.

我们也不太确定该如何谈论这个问题，但它确实有趣，我们也对此感到好奇。

This is something we're not totally sure how to talk about either, but it is interesting and we are curious about it.

说到试图用它做些具体的事情，我们读到过一件令人震惊、有趣的事情：南希·里根在里根总统第二个任期快结束时，曾公开咨询过一位占星师来帮助决策。

And speaking of trying to do something concrete with it, one of the things that we read that was really alarming, shocking, interesting was that Nancy Reagan apparently famously consulted an astrologer to help determine Reagan's presidency toward the end of his second term.

如果我们想想占星术，你所说的——抱歉，不是那种平庸的占星术。

And if we think about astrology, what you would call I'm sorry, not banal astrology.

世俗的。

Mundane.

世俗占星术。

Mundane astrology.

是

Was

比如，择日占星？

like, Electional?

那不是

That's not

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

如果我们从占星术有助于预测未来这个角度来思考，或者像西尔说的，你认为占星术应该在政治中发挥作用吗？

If we think about astrology in terms of helping determine the future or as Cyr saying, do you think astrology should play a role in politics?

政治家的星座或星盘重要吗？

Should politicians' astrological signs or their natal charts matter?

你对此有什么看法？

What are your thoughts on that?

是的。

Yeah.

好吧，让我们从你们提出这个问题的方式开始说起。

Well, let's start with one of the things This is the way you guys formulated that question.

我在笔记中觉得这一点非常有趣，因为它揭示了公众对此事的部分情绪，以及20世纪80年代政治公关如何应对那则新闻——当时有报道称南希和里根夫妇在白宫使用占星术。当这则新闻在80年代曝光时，里根政府的应对策略是声称这只是南希个人的兴趣。

Thought it was really interesting in the notes because it was interesting in revealing part of the public sentiment towards it and how a piece of nineteen eighty's political spin of the damage control when that story came out that Nancy and that the Reagan's were using astrology in the White House, part of the damage control that they came up with at the time when the story broke in the 1980s because a disgruntled former White House chief of staff wrote a tell all book about it is the Reagan White House's response was that this was just Nancy that was into it.

他们说这只是里根的妻子，是她在里根遇刺后因过度担忧他的安危而转向占星术作为心理依靠，而里根只是被不情愿地牵扯了进来。

It was Reagan's wife, and it was part of her female failings after the assassination attempt that happened on him that she turned to astrology as a crutch because she was so worried about his life, and that was when he just sort of got dragged unwillingly into it.

有趣的是，当我为这个话题做研究时——实际上是为了我播客的第68期——我发现他们早在20世纪60年代就开始使用占星术了，而且有记录显示他们在一些奇怪的时间点采取行动，比如在午夜或接近午夜时举行就职典礼。

And the funny point about that when I researched this for a while actually for Episode 68 of my podcast, which I did on this, they actually had a history of using astrology going back many years, the way back into the nineteen sixties, and had been documented doing things at weird times, like having him inaugurated at midnight or close to midnight or something.

当时所有的记者都在疑惑，为什么他要在这么奇怪的深夜时间做如此公开的事情。

And all the reporters at the time were wondering why he's doing something this public at such a weird hour of night.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而且他一直都有这么做的惯例，后来那位占星师还亲自出面写了一本相关的书，因为她对里根夫妇淡化她工作作用的做法感到有些不满。

And he had a consistent history of doing that, and then this astrologer actually came out and wrote a book about it because she was kind of annoyed that they were downplaying her work.

这位占星师称自己从他们的竞选活动刚启动时就一直在和他们合作，一直在幕后帮他们挑选各类事件的时机：包括启动总统竞选的时间、签署和俄罗斯的核条约这类重要条约的时间，还有里根和吉米·卡特的辩论时间——她特意选了一个她认为对里根更有利、对卡特不利的日期，来帮里根赢下辩论。

She said that she had actually been working with them, this one astrologer going back to the very beginning of their campaign, and that she was sort of behind the scenes picking out times for them to launch his presidential campaigns, for him to sign major treaties like a nuclear treaty with Russia for debates between Reagan and Jimmy Carter that she picked out a date that she thought would be better for Reagan and not as good for Carter to help him win the debate.

所以我觉得这件事很有意思，因为大众对这件事的认知，很大程度上都来源于他们在1980年代末炮制的一套公关说辞和危机公关手段，他们当时基本上把所有责任都推给了南希，把这件事塑造成南希的个人缺陷，但实际上在那之前的很多年里，他们夫妻俩大概率一直都在共同使用占星术。

So I just thought it was interesting because the way What the public actually thinks about that is partially based on the spin and the damage control that they came up with in the late 1980s in order to blame it on Nancy being a woman basically and it being part of her shortcoming when in fact it was probably something that they were both using together for many, many years up to that point.

这真的很有意思。

That's really interesting.

我不知道。

I don't know.

这件事也很蹊跷，因为如果我们想想里根的总统任期和他的政策造成的那些附带伤害的话，

It's weird too because if we think about the collateral damage that happened because of Reagan's presidency and his policies,

对。

Right.

你懂的，搞那套危机公关说不定都比直白说出‘等一下’要强。

You know, maybe the damage control is better than actually being like, Wait a minute.

是谁做的这个决定？

Who made this decision?

他们为什么这样处理艾滋病危机？

Why did they handle the AIDS crisis this way?

是的。

Yeah.

当我谈到里根时，我总是尽量不轻易认同他的观点，因为我并不一定认同他的政治立场，但我只是想澄清占星术在其中所起的作用有多大。

And that's something when I talk about Reagan that I'm always trying to be quick not to endorse because I don't necessarily endorse his politics, but just setting the record straight about the extent to which astrology was involved.

而且有趣的是，占星术通常更与左派、新时代运动、替代医学或其他类似事物联系在一起，但有时也会出现一种趋势，尤其在里根身上表现得最明显，这说明它并不一定与任何特定的政治群体挂钩。

And also, interestingly, because astrology is also something that tends to be more associated with the left and with the New Age and alternative medicine or different things like that, but there is this stream sometimes that shows up most prominently with Reagan so that it's something that's not necessarily tied to any one political group or anything like that.

不过，回到你的观点，是的，这确实是一个潜在的问题。

Anyways, but to to your point though, yeah, I mean, that is a potential problem.

有趣的一点是，就连他的就职典礼——前几天我发了一条推文，当时我们都在努力确认拜登和哈里斯宣誓就职的确切时刻。

What's one of the interesting things is even his inauguration his the other day, I tweeted when everybody we were trying to get the inauguration time for the exact moment that Biden and Harris took their oaths.

而在里根第二次就职时，占星师琼·奎格利让他提前几分钟宣誓，因为她希望将这组吉祥的月亮与木星合相置于天空中最显著的位置。

And during Reagan's second inauguration, the astrologer Joan Quigley, she had him do it a few minutes early because she wanted to put this auspicious Moon Jupiter conjunction directly in the middle of the sky or in the most prominent place in the chart possible.

所以如果你看他宣誓就职的情况，他确实比预定的正午时间提前了一点，就是为了实现这一点。

And so if you look at his inauguration, he did it just a little bit earlier before noon than he was supposed to just in order to accomplish that.

读他的传记时，你会发现他们称他为‘特氟龙总统’，因为任何事情都沾不到他身上，他从未因下属的严重丑闻——比如伊朗门事件——而下台，而他本应为此负责，但不知为何，他却没有。

And it is weird reading his biography how they called him, you know, the Teflon president because nothing would stick to him and he never went down for any of the major stuff that some of his subordinates did like the Iran Contra scandal, which he honestly should have gone down for, but for some reason, he didn't.

人们不禁会想，如果有人能提出这种观点，也许正是因为他和占星家做的这些额外事情才导致了这样的结果。

And one wonders, mean, if somebody could make that argument, maybe it was because of all of these extra things that he was doing with the astrologer.

谁知道呢？

Who knows?

积极的一面是，我想说的是，他签署了与俄罗斯的重大洲际弹道导弹条约，而占星家确实帮助挑选了一个吉祥的星象图以确保其成功，这或许是一个积极因素，有助于该条约最终取得成功。

On the positive side, I do wanna say signing that major intercontinental ballistic missile treaty with Russia and the fact that the astrologer did help to pick a auspicious chart for it to ensure its success could have been on a positive factor that could have helped, or to whatever extent that did help to become a successful treaty, have been a positive thing.

所以我也说不准。

So I don't know.

你可以从正反两方面来论证里根总统的执政及其政治影响，而占星术在其中所扮演的角色，也因此可能是积极的，也可能是消极的，取决于它是否帮助了他。

You could make positive or negative arguments either way in terms of Reagan's presidency and its effect politically and the role that astrology then by extension is something that was positive or negative in terms of helping him or not.

这太引人入胜了。

That super fascinating.

这比我们读到的内容有趣多了。

That's way more interesting than what we read.

谢谢你澄清这一点，因为这真的更精彩。

So thank you for setting the record straight on that because that is way juicier.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，去看看播客第68集吧，因为我花了几年时间做深入研究，做了一个两小时的完整剖析，一直希望更多人能看到，因为它的内容比表面上听起来有趣得多。

I mean, check Episode 68 of the podcast just because I did a full in-depth deep dive, like two hour thing into that based on a few years of research and always wished that it got viewed by more people because it's a lot more interesting than it sounds like it should be at first glance.

我已经在想了，好。

I'm already like, Okay.

对。

Yeah.

我想听听。

I wanna hear that.

回到刚才的问题，根据里根总统任内的成功来看，你似乎认为占星术在政治中应该有一席之地——也许我这是在做假设。

Just taking it back to the question, then based on the success of Reagan's presidency, it sounds like you're under the belief and maybe I'm making an assumption that astrology should have a role in politics.

你是这么想的吗？

Do you feel that way or no?

不是。

No.

实际上，我在2009年到2013年期间，也就是奥巴马总统第一任期的前半段，运营了一个名为《政治占星博客》的博客，我们跟踪政治动态，收集候选人的出生时间，对2012年总统大选的结果做出预测，还回溯了以往的预测，检查我们之前的失误。

Actually, did a blog for a few years called the Political Astrology Blog from 2009 through 2013 during the first part of Obama's presidency where we followed politics and we collected birth times for candidates and made predictions about the outcome of the twenty twelve presidential election, different things like that, and checked in with past predictions that we had made to follow-up on our successor failures.

这很有趣，但随着我越来越深入，研究占星术的历史越多，我就越对占星师涉足政治层面感到不安。

And that was fun, but once I started getting the more I got into it, more and the more I researched the history of astrology, the more nervous I got about astrologers getting into politics on that level.

因为历史上，每当占星师介入政治时，往往就会出现禁止占星术的禁令，占星师也会因此惹上麻烦，有时这正是导致占星术被压制的原因。

Because oftentimes, when astrologers get involved in politics at different points in history, that's when the bans on astrology start happening, and that's when astrologers start getting themselves in trouble because sometimes that's what leads to astrology getting suppressed.

对我来说，做出预测、证明自己正确，或者通过成功的预测来展示占星术的真实性，并不比单纯因为占星术本身具有内在吸引力而从事它更重要。

And for me, making predictions and being right or sort of like showing off astrology and demonstrating that it's a real thing by making successful predictions was not as important to me as just doing astrology because it's an inherently interesting thing in and of itself.

因此，在2013年那次选举后，我就关闭了那个政治占星博客，因为我并不想继续朝那个方向发展。

So I went ahead and I closed down that political astrology blog in 2013 after that election because I didn't want to to keep heading in that direction.

我认为，未来如果占星师以这种方式变得更加突出，可能会很危险，因为我看到政治环境正变得越来越恶劣，担心占星师会被卷入其中。

I thought it would actually be potentially dangerous for astrologers to become more prominent in that way in the future because I could see that politics was getting worse and worse, and I was worried about astrologers getting caught up in that.

所以，顺着这个思路，占星术会不会被用于邪恶或不正当的目的呢？

So I guess following this line of thinking then, can astrology then be used for evil or for wrongdoing then?

你能不能为那些——用个不太精确的词来说——坏人做出恶意的预测？

Can you be nefariously predicting on behalf of people who, I guess, are bad for lack of a more nuanced and elegant term?

是的。

Yeah.

有可能是恶意的。

Mean, potentially.

我的意思是，这正是它作为一种中立技术的潜在弊端之一。

I mean, that's one of the potential downsides of it just being this neutral technology.

就像任何技术一样，它既可以用于好的方面，也可以用于坏的方面。

Like any technology, it could be used for good or for bad.

这完全取决于谁在使用它。

It really just depends on who's using it.

我的意思是，里根，根据你的政治立场和你对他总统任期的看法，这其实是一个很好的例子：这到底算好事还是坏事？

I mean, you know, Reagan, depending on your political affiliations and what you feel about his his presidency, a great example of that in terms of was that a good thing?

他是在用它做善事吗？

Was he using that for good?

还是说那位试图帮助他的占星师，对整个国家来说反而是适得其反的？

Or was the astrologer who was trying to help him, was that counterproductive for the country as a whole?

你知道，这取决于个人的政治立场。

You know, that comes down to one's politics.

但毫无疑问，你可以用它来做坏事，因为它本身是一种中立的东西。

But definitely, you could use it for bad things because it's kind of a neutral thing in and of itself.

它可能走向任何一方。

It could go either way.

这完全取决于使用它的人是谁。

It entirely depends on the person who's wielding it and who's using it.

你知道，他们可能会试图用它来做坏事，但仍然失败或不成功；或者反过来，他们可能试图用它来做善事，但依然失败或不成功。

You know, they could try to And I should also add that they could try to use it for bad things and still fail or still not be successful, or alternatively, could try to use it for good things but still fail or still be not successful.

占星术的一个问题是，有时人们会质疑：如果它真的有效，它究竟能赋予你多少控制力或权力？它实际上能带来多大优势？还是说它只是在描述那些本来就会发生的事情，而并不会真正改变结果？

One of the issues with astrology is sometimes there's an issue about how much control or how much power if it does work, would it actually even give you effectively, or how much of an advantage does it actually give you versus how much is it just describing things that are going to happen anyways that it's not necessarily going to alter the outcome of.

这很有趣。

That's interesting.

即使做出预测也可能没有任何影响，因为它本质上只是说太阳明天会落山。

Even making the predictions might not make any difference because it's basically saying the Sun will set tomorrow.

对此你无能为力。

There's nothing you can do about it.

太阳依然会落山。

The Sun will still set.

所以我想，也许对某些人来说，提前预知事件是有利的，但可能并不会改变任何事情的走向。

So I guess maybe having the foresight of an event is advantageous to some but might not alter the course of anything.

是的。

Yeah.

这完全取决于情况。

It just depends.

这归结为命运还是自由意志的问题，要回答事情是完全预定的，还是部分预定并留有余地，或者所谓的‘是的’，真的很难。

It comes down to the fate or free will issue and it's really hard to answer that question whether things are fully predetermined or whether they're only partially predetermined and there's some wiggle room or what the Yeah.

这种情况到底如何，有时候真的很难说。

What the case is with that, and it's really hard to hard to say sometimes.

对。

Right.

你提到迫害这件事很有趣，因为当我们进一步研究时，我不太想用‘神秘主义’这个词，但她并不是占星师，而是一名萨满。

It's interesting that you mentioned the thing about the persecution because when we were kind of researching Again, I don't want to necessarily use the term mysticism, but she wasn't an astrologer, she was a shaman.

韩国总统朴槿惠被发现曾咨询萨满以获取政治建议。

The South Korean president, Park Geun hye, she was found out to be consulting with a shaman for political advice.

当这件事被曝光后，她们弹劾了她，现在她正在监狱里。

And when they found this out, they impeached her, and she's in prison now.

哦，我不确定。

Oh, I don't know.

哪个国家？

Of what country?

韩国。

South Korea.

她在被弹劾的时候就在那里。

Was there when they impeached her.

是的。

Yeah,

对。

yeah.

这很奇怪，因为那不是某种邪教的一部分吗？

Was weird because wasn't that part of a cult or something like that?

在韩国，他们称之为“赛比”，基本上是一种伪宗教。

In Korea, they call it saibi, which is basically pseudo religion.

这基本上就是某种宗教教义的分支，就是说，我们相信其中一些基本的东西，但我们以这种方式相信。

It's basically just an offshoot of some religious tenet, and it's like, okay, we believe some of these fundamental things, but we believe them this way.

是的，这整个事情很复杂，因为据说她的父亲在世时，那位萨满就是他的原始神秘顾问，而她父亲当时是独裁者，所以这整个事情非常疯狂。

Yeah, that's like a whole thing because I guess her father the shaman's father was the original mystical consultant for her while her father was alive and like a dictator, so it's like it's it's a whole crazy thing.

是的。

Yeah.

占星术与政治的历史，以及占星家要么作为内部人士与某些政治家或统治者共事，要么被排除在外，有着完整的发展脉络。

The whole history of astrology and politics and astrologers either being on the inside with certain politicians or rulers has a whole history and then astrology being on the outside.

比如公元一世纪著名的占星家特拉萨卢斯，他是罗马帝国第二任皇帝提比略的私人占星师。

Mean, the inside famous astrologers like Thrasalus in the first century who was the personal astrologer to the emperor Tiberius, like the second emperor of the Roman Empire.

还有类似的重大案例，比如中世纪占星家为国王或其他统治者服务的情况。

And major instances like that or other later ones with medieval astrologers serving kings or other things like that.

也有一些负面案例，比如二十世纪四十年代纳粹德国禁止占星术，禁止出版占星书籍，并逮捕了许多占星师，将他们投入集中营，其中一些人因此丧生。

There's also downside ones where, for example, the Nazis in the nineteen forties outlawed astrology and outlawed the printing of astrology books and rounded up a bunch of astrologers and threw them in concentration camps where some of them died.

因此，试图控制或压制占星术——作为一种人们希望掌控的信息——也是一种强大的推动力。

So sometimes the attempts to control or suppress astrology as a form of information that people want to control is another strong pull.

这真的很棒，我想我们差不多快问完问题了，对我来说，这次对话非常有启发性，也很有趣。

That's really Well, I guess we're kind of coming to the end of our questions and stuff, and this has been super enlightening and fun for me.

但我想，谢伊和我，作为像我们这样固执、倔强的人，结论依然成立。

But I guess the verdict still stands Shaye and I as, I don't know, just the kind of stubborn, bullheaded mules that we are.

我认为我们仍然保持着某种程度的怀疑态度。

I think we still hold on to some skepticism.

那么，你会对那些持怀疑态度、不相信占星术的人说什么呢？

So it's like, what is something that you say to skeptics or people who are skeptical and don't believe in astrology?

或者你只是觉得，算了吧？

Or do you just like, You know what?

你做你的。

You do you.

我做我的。

I'm gonna do me.

我没时间管这个。

I don't have time for this.

你对这个问题的态度是什么？

What's your approach to that?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我以前更纠结于这一点，或者试图和那些明显反对占星术的人辩论，这其实有点不一样。

I mean, I used to be more caught up in in that or trying to debate people that were overtly anti astrology, which is kind of kind of a difference.

比如，有时候我觉得，如果你遇到那种把驳斥某些事物当作毕生事业或职业一部分的人，这和普通情况是不一样的。

Like, sometimes I feel like if I run into There's a difference between running into somebody that makes it their life's work or part of their profession is disproving things.

如果他们是现代怀疑论运动的一部分，他们往往会投入大量情感，必须站在反对的一方，而我认为这和那种保持健康怀疑态度、更倾向于中立、或只是不确定、觉得这听起来很奇怪且不应该是真的的情况有所不同。

They get a certain amount of investment in needing to be on that side of things if they're part of the sort of modern skeptical movement, which I think is different than having a sort of healthy dose of skepticism that is trending more towards neutrality or just not knowing or that sounding weird and that not sounding like something that should be true.

到目前为止，如果你不认为占星术是一种合法的现象，或者完全不知道我所说的内容是否真实或有任何依据，我也不会怪你。

And at this point, I would not blame you for not thinking it's necessarily a legitimate phenomenon or having no idea if any of the stuff that I'm saying is true or has any validity.

但我通常会建议，我一直都在思考，如果人们想自己验证占星术是否有效，最令人印象深刻的是该去研究什么。

But what I usually would recommend, and I've always tried to think about what would be the most impressive thing, what should people look into if they wanna see if astrology is a valid phenomenon for themself.

对我来说，最主要的就是研究你自己的出生星盘，尤其是如果你有准确的出生时间记录，那就应该采取双重方法：一方面，看看你的出生星盘本身是否能准确描述你、你的生活或你生命中的事件，因为按理说它根本不该做到这一点。

And for me, the primary thing is just the study of your own birth chart, especially if you have an accurate recorded birth time, then it should be a twofold approach of, on the one hand, looking at your birth chart itself and seeing if it is true that it describes you or your life or the events of your life in any way because it shouldn't.

出生星盘不过是一个二维图表，显示了你出生那一刻行星所处的位置。

All the birth chart is is it's just a two dimensional diagram that depicts where the planets were located at the moment that you were born.

我想我们都同意，你出生那一刻行星的位置，不应该影响你何时结婚、何时在工作中取得成功、何时被解雇，或类似的事情。

And I think we can all agree that where the planets were located at the moment of your birth should have no bearing on you know, the day that you end up getting married or when you become successful in your job or when you get fired from something or something like that.

它们之间绝对不应该有任何关联。

It should have absolutely no relation.

所以，先直接看你的出生星盘，看看它是否真的能说出一些不牵强、并非仅仅源于确认偏误的关于你生活或性格的真相；其次，再运用出生星盘结合一些基本的时间预测技术，其中最重要的一种叫作‘行运’——也就是把你的出生星盘（即你出生时行星的位置）与你生命中后来发生的重大事件进行对比，看看当这些事件发生时，行星是否以某种象征性的重要方式与你出生星盘中的位置对齐。

So just looking at the birth chart itself and seeing if it has actually anything true to say that's not a reach and is not simply a matter of confirmation bias about your life or your personality or other things like that, and then secondarily, using the birth chart and applying some of the basic timing techniques to it, chiefly, one of the most important timing techniques is known as transits, which is just that you take the birth chart, which is where the planets were at the moment you were born, and then you compare later events in your life, and you see where the planets were when major events happened, and if the planets lined up with placements in your birth chart in symbolically significant ways.

如果确实如此，那在某种程度上就证实了占星术的基本前提。

And if they do, then that actually kind of confirms the premise of astrology to some extent.

而如果你没有看到一致的相关性，或者发现它们根本对不上，那就说明根据你的个人经验，这种现象并不存在，也不具有有效性。

Whereas if you don't see a consistent correlation and it doesn't seem to line up very well, then that would mean that you're not seeing it and it's not really something that is valid then based on your personal experience.

对我来说，我总希望更多人能做这样的实验，去验证占星术是否真的能对他们的生活说出一些看似合理的洞见。因为我认为，如果你真诚地去做，有时很难不注意到那些关联，从而觉得其中确实有什么东西在起作用——这正是我研究占星术二十年来始终无法割舍的原因。

And to me, I always wish more people would do that kind of experiment to see if it actually does have anything to say that looks valid about their life Because I think if you do that honestly, then sometimes it's hard not to see some of those correlations and think that there's something going on there, and that's always been the thing that keeps me coming back to it after twenty years of looking into it myself.

这太有趣了。

That's so interesting.

听你这么说，虽然我自己仍算半个怀疑论者，但不得不说，你至少在这次对话中，为我提供了一个更宽广的框架，让我对占星术有了更全面的理解。

Hearing you say this and considering myself still somewhat of a skeptic, I have to say that you've definitely, at least in this conversation, given me a broader framework, certainly a broader understanding of astrology generally.

伊恩可能已经听过太多这种说法了，但我最近一直在大量学习——我不知道怎么说才不显得太书呆子气——比如量子力学、引力这类东西。

Ian's probably heard so much of this, but I've been learning so much aboutI don't know how to say it without sounding really nerdybut quantum mechanics and gravity and stuff like that.

我平时自己一个人的时候，就特别沉迷于这些话题。

I've just been nerding out a lot on my own time.

一开始，我以为占星术可能与某些宏大的宇宙物理学概念有关。

At first, I thought, Okay, astrology might be related to some of these cosmological ideas of just grand physics.

然后我想了想，等等。

And then I was like, well, you know what?

我觉得其实并不是这样。

I don't really think so.

我觉得它更贴近我们太阳系的天文学，据我所知，这部分在很大程度上仍然是成立的。

I feel like it's more related to, like, our solar system's astronomy, which I think is still, like, primarily true for the most part from what I understand.

但现在，这种像矩阵或现实底层的钟表机制般的隐喻，让我想起了我听过的一些说法。

But now this this new metaphor of, like, the matrix or, like, the clockwork underneath reality reminds me a lot of what I hear.

我得小心表达这一点，因为我知道很多人对量子力学了解甚少，却用一种新时代的方式曲解它，暗示量子力学根本没说的内容。

And I and I have to be careful when I say this because I know that a lot of people have used, like, the idea of, like, quantum mechanics and with with little understanding and have misstated it and in in in a new agey way to, like, imply things that quantum mechanics doesn't say.

但我有限的量子力学知识，结合我现在对占星术有限的理解，正在勾勒出一幅更生动、似乎更真实的图景。

But my limited knowledge of quantum mechanics partnered with my limited understanding now of astrology is painting at least somewhat more of a colorful image that seems a little bit more real to me.

我仍然认为自己是个怀疑者，但不得不说，这次对话让我对占星术的看法发生了转变，这感觉很有趣，也很不错。

I'm still I still consider myself a skeptic, but I do have to say that my opinion of it has has shifted in this conversation, which is actually it feels it feels interesting and it feels good.

我其实很喜欢这一方面。

I actually enjoy that aspect of it.

我不是只想夸你，也不希望听起来像是那样，但对我来说，这是一场很有趣的对话，真的一直是。

I'm not just trying to toot your horn, I don't want it to come across as that kind of thing, but it's an interesting conversation for me, it really has been.

是的，很好。

Yeah, good.

尽管我对占星术的理解更偏向于符号或预兆的模式，我认为这主要是它运作的方式，但我仍不愿完全排除某种与量子力学或其他机制相关的因果解释。

Even though I have more of a sign or omen based conceptualization of astrology, I think that's primarily how it works, I'm hesitant to completely rule out some sort of causal explanation that could be related to quantum mechanics or something.

我不知道。

I don't know.

但通常人们就在这里止步了，他们会说，这背后没有因果解释，不可能是真的。

But that's usually the point where people don't pass further is they say there's no causal explanation for that or way that that could be true.

因此，这个话题不可能是真的。

Therefore, this subject can't be true.

因此，没有理由再深入研究了。

Therefore, there's no reason to look into it further.

我认为这就是大多数人止步的地方，但正因如此，我才想试着解释一下这些观点，因为这未必非得是终点，即使我们无法完全理解其背后的确切机制，甚至机制本身可能与我们通常认为万物运作的方式不同，也依然值得深入探究。

And I think that's the stopping point for most people, but that's why I wanted to try to explain some of that because that may not need to be the stopping point and it might be worth looking into even if we don't fully understand precisely the mechanism underlying it and that the mechanism itself may be different than what we're usually conceptualized to thinking all things work as a result of.

但对我来说，我一直想以这种方式解释它，或者找到一种方法，向那些持怀疑态度的人说明白，因为在占星术的历史上，时不时会有一位非常聪明、博学的人试图将这一切整合起来，用现代宇宙学、物理学和哲学等来使其变得合理。

But for me, I've wanted to try to explain it in this way or figure out how to explain it to somebody that is skeptical because periodically in the history of astrology, sometimes there's somebody who's really smart, who's like a polymath that tries to tie it all together and make it make sense in terms of modern cosmology and modern physics and philosophy and everything else.

比如，克劳狄乌斯·托勒密在公元二世纪就尝试过这样做，但如今在占星术领域，我们还没有这样的人。

So Claudius Ptolemy attempted to do that in the second century, for example, but we don't really have that yet today in astrology.

我对历史非常熟悉，也努力深入思考哲学等问题，以寻求对这些议题的答案，但我并不具备解答那些更广泛问题的能力，也不认为自己是能完成这项工作的人。

And I'm really good with the history, and I try to think deeply about things like the philosophy to come to answers about some of this, but I'm not equipped to answer some of those broader things or figure it out, and I don't think I'm the one to do that.

但我希望，至少在某个时候，会有人具备这样的背景，能够介入并解开其中的一些谜题，建立起我们目前所缺失的那种宏大统一理论，从而在现代科学与哲学的框架下，为占星术奠定更坚实的基础。

But I hope at least at some point maybe there will be somebody that has some of that background that comes in and is able to figure some of these things out and create this sort of grand unified field theory that we're kind of missing and would be necessary to place astrology on a more solid footing from a scientific and philosophical perspective in modern times.

所以，我们拭目以待吧。

So we'll see what happens.

与此同时，我会继续努力完善自己，尽可能以一种对所有占星师、以及各种传统和方法都具有吸引力、适用性和恰当性的方式，向人们解释占星术。

And in the meantime, I'm gonna keep trying to refine, figuring out how to explain it to people as best that I can in a way that's appealing or applicable or appropriate for all astrologers and all the different traditions and approaches that are involved.

但我非常感谢你们今天给我这个机会，让我能进行这场对话，这是一次极好的练习，帮助我尝试去做到这一点。

But I appreciate you guys for giving me this opportunity to try to have this conversation today because it was a good good exercise in attempting to do that.

是的

Yeah.

我的意思是，我们非常感谢您抽出时间向我们解释，并允许我们提出这么多问题。

Well, I mean, we really appreciate you taking the time explain it to us and let us ask you all these questions.

内容很多，非常感谢。

Know it was a lot, so thanks a lot.

是的

Yeah.

非常感谢您。

Thank you so much.

没问题。

No problem.

我们有没有遗漏什么话题？或者您还有什么遗留的问题，或者我们只是简要提及但您想再深入讨论一下的内容，以确保我们已经覆盖了所有方面？

Is there anything else that we didn't touch on or any lingering questions that you have or things that we only touched on briefly that you wanted to go back to just to make sure we've covered everything.

嗯，我注意到您在讲话时有一个小细节，也许我只是过度解读了。

Well, know, there's one little thing that I noticed in your speaking, and maybe I was just looking too deeply into this.

如果我没记错的话，你多次提到‘如果占星术是真实的’，并没有明确断言它确实成立。

If I'm not mistaken, you said a few times, you said, If astrology is true, and you used this framework of not saying emphatically that it is.

我只是好奇，你是否坚定地相信：是的，这绝对真实，这是人类理解与诠释宇宙的基础？

And I'm just curious, do you believe emphatically, Yes, this is absolutely true, this is the foundation of our understanding and interpretation of the universe.

是的。

Yeah.

如果我不相信，我早就不会去做，也不会继续坚持了。

I wouldn't do it and I wouldn't keep doing it.

如果我不认为它是真的，我早就停止了。

I would have stopped at some point if I didn't think it was true.

值得提一下，因为这又是其中一个难题。

Well, worth saying because again, it's one of the problems.

这也是我愿意和你们进行这次对话的原因之一，但我一直犹豫是否使用‘怀疑论者’这个词，因为大多数专业怀疑论者的核心假设是：占星术不可能是真的，占星师也明知它不真实，因此他们只是在利用占星术欺骗他人。

It's one of the reasons why I was I was open to having this conversation with you guys, but I was hesitant to use the term skeptic because one of the core skeptical assumptions that most professional skeptics have is that astrologers that that astrology can't be true, and astrologers must know that it's not true, and therefore, they're just attempting to defraud people when they say that they're using astrology to do various things.

这就造成了一种奇怪的局面：作为局外人，他们基于与许多占星师互动或接触占星社群的经验，默认占星师们是故意欺骗他人，根本不相信占星术是一种真实的现象。

So it creates this weird situation where their working assumption, having interacted with many astrologers or done much in the astrological community or anything else, their working assumption as outsiders is that astrologers are deliberately just trying to rip people off and don't think that it's actually a legitimate phenomenon.

而这是我最反对大多数对占星术的怀疑论批评或处理方式的原因之一：只要在占星社群里待上五分钟，你就会意识到，其中98%甚至99%的人都认为这是一种真实的现象，并且他们自己也在日常生活中持续应用它。

And that's one of the biggest objections that I have to most skeptical critiques or treatments of astrology is it just takes like five minutes of being in the astrological community to realize that 98 or 99 of the people within it think that this is a legitimate phenomenon, and then they're applying it to their life themselves on a regular basis.

因此，你立刻就能判断出，如果这种怀疑论的批评是针对大多数占星师作为一个整体提出的，那就不成立，这立刻暴露了这个人对所讨论主题的实践者并不熟悉。

So that right away, you can tell if that skeptical critique is being leveled at most astrologers as a generality, it's not true, and it immediately gives away that this person isn't very familiar with the practitioners of the subjects that they're talking about.

但你们的处理方式要完全不同，这也是我不确定称这次对话为‘与怀疑论者的讨论’是否恰当的原因，因为带着那些预设前提来对待这件事，方式截然不同。

But you guys approached this in a much different way, and that's one of the reasons why I wasn't sure if if calling this, like, a discussion with skeptics was right because approaching it with some of those assumptions is much different.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，是的，我相信它是一种真实的现象。

So, yeah, I do believe it's a legitimate thing.

但我一直留意到，我最初接触占星术，部分是通过你们可能称之为阴谋论和新时代思想的东西。

But I try to pay attention to I originally got into astrology partially through what you might call some conspiracy theories and some New Age stuff.

在几年的时间里，我越来越深入地研究占星术，并决定在高中毕业后直接进入大学学习它，尤其是从占星术的历史背景入手。

And over a period of a few years, I got more and more into astrology, and I decided to go into and study it in college, especially with the context of the history of astrology right out of high school.

随着时间推移，随着我年龄增长，我逐渐摆脱了那些阴谋论的内容，意识到它们是虚假的，或是基于错误信息，或者其他类似的东西，甚至可能和QAnon这类东西相当。

And over time, as I got older, some of the conspiracy theory stuff I grew out of and I realized was false or based on misinformation or other things like that, stuff maybe comparable to the QAnon stuff even.

但出于某种原因，关于占星术这件事，我会时不时自我审视：这到底是和那些阴谋论一样的东西，还是一项真正合理存在的现象？

But for some reason, the astrology, I would periodically check-in with myself and say, is this that, or is this a legitimate phenomenon?

我一直努力让自己保持务实，不断向自己提出这个问题。

And always try to keep myself as grounded as possible in continually asking myself that question.

比如说，我会不会已经和那些陷在阴谋论、宗教、邪教或者类似事物里的人一样，没法跳出自己的确认偏误之类的思维陷阱了？

Like, am I of those people that is just so dragged into a conspiracy theory or a religion or a cult or something like that that I can't see through my own confirmation bias or other things like that?

还是说这真的是一种有其存在道理的合理现象？哪怕从完全理性客观的角度来说，我们都觉得它按理来说不该成立，但出于某种原因，它确确实实是站得住脚的？

Or is this actually a legitimate phenomenon that's happening for some reason even though from a completely rational and objective standpoint, like we all know that it probably shouldn't, but for some reason, you know, is it.

你知道吗，到现在已经过去二十、二十一年了，我始终还是会回到这个结论上——哪怕我不断自我审视，依然觉得占星术确有其道理，它确实是一种真实存在的现象，所以我的目标就是尽我所能去探索、理解它。

And, you know, it's been twenty, twenty one years now, and I I still keep coming back to despite checking in with myself thinking that there is something to it and that this is actually a legitimate phenomenon that's happening, and therefore, goal is to try to explore it and understand it as best that I can.

不过我也努力保持务实，部分原因是我始终很清楚，在门外汉眼里这件事会是什么样子。

But I try to stay grounded also partially because I'm always very aware of what it must look like to somebody from the outside.

一想到很多我高中就认识的人，或是其他类似处境的人，可能都觉得我疯了，或是觉得我沉迷于什么很离谱的东西——他们对我的工作只有一些非常粗浅的误解，以为我这辈子的事业就是研究太阳星座之类的，这就让我觉得很尴尬。

And it makes me cringe to think of so many people I probably grew up with in high school or other things like that who just think that I've probably lost it or that I'm into this really lame thing if I've dedicated my entire career to studying Sun signs or whatever their basic misconception is of what I do.

所以学着怎么给完全没有占星基础的人解释这件事，一直是我目标的一部分，这能帮我保持务实，确保我确实是在做一件在某种意义上站得住脚的事。

So learning how to explain it to people that don't have any background in it has been part of my goal in terms of keeping myself grounded in making sure that I'm actually, you know, doing something that that is legitimate in some way.

是的

Yeah.

所以，这是我回答你关于我认为它是否真实这个问题的长篇解释。

So that's the long way I think to answer your question about do I think it's legitimate.

这太迷人了。

That's so fascinating.

它与阴谋论之间的关联对我们来说也极其有趣。

The correlation also to the conspiracy thing is so fascinating to us.

我知道我们可能快到时间了，因为我们已经占用了你们这么多时间，但我并不

And I know we're probably getting close on time here because we've borrowed so much of your time already, but it's I'm not

一点也不着急。

in a hurry at all.

这实际上非常有趣。

This is actually very interesting.

我知道现在对你们来说已经很晚了。

I know it's late for you guys.

你所说的，我得想想该怎么表达，因为我刚刚才想到这一点。

The what you're I have to think about, like, how to formulate it because I I just thought of it.

就像你在上一次对话中给出的回答，让我突然意识到一些事情。

Like, the answer that you gave in the last conversation made me kinda, like, realize something.

就像我们的节目，当我们第一次接触某个主题时，我是说，我们是一个喜剧教育类播客。

Like, I know even even our show, like, when we first learn about a subject I mean, like, we're a comedy education podcast.

所以，我们先有喜剧，喜剧放在第一位，然后我们拿它开玩笑。

So, like, we first comedy and the comedy comes first, and we joke about that.

在我们的第一部分，我们其实什么都不知道，只是玩得开心。

Like, in our part ones, like, we don't know anything, so we're just having a good time.

我们是在调侃一切。

We're taking the piss out of everything.

到了第二部分，我们就想采访一些真正了解这些内容的人。

And then in part two, it's like, well, we wanna talk to people that actually, like, know about this stuff.

这就是教育的部分。

Like, that's the education aspect.