命运与占星术

所以，是的，我认为我越来越欣赏这一点，因为最近我可以反思的一件事是——关注我频道的人可能知道，我从小在非常虔诚的环境中长大，是个牧师的孩子，之后一生中也经历了大量对宗教的探索。

And so, yeah, I think it's I I think that, yeah, I've grown to appreciate that more and more because one of the things that I can reflect on recently is, people, again, who watch my channel know this, but I so I was part I grew up very religious, you know, kid, a a preacher's kid, and then, yeah, just a lot of exploration of religion throughout my lifetime.

最近，我离开了曾经参与的一个宗教传统，当时我取了一个受戒的名字，正如大家所知，而现在我重新使用了我的本名。

And one of the things that so recently, I left a religious tradition that I was a part of, and I had taken an initiated name, as everyone knows, and I've kind of gone back to my birth name.

我非常感激的是，占星术以一种奇特的方式，完美地象征了我投身于这段宗教体验的过程，同时也清晰地象征了我需要离开并继续前行的必要性。

And, one of the things that I am so thankful for is that astrology had this weird way of perfectly sort of signifying and symbolizing the dive that I took into this religious experience as well as very perfectly signifying the need to leave and go on.

所以我觉得特别有趣的是，占星术本质上是开放且支持各种经历的。

And so what I think is really interesting is that astrology seems fundamentally open to and supportive of of all manners of of experiences.

它也能反映世上各种不同的哲学思想。

It has a way of reflecting all the different kinds of philosophies that are out there too.

我认为这就是占星术如此独特的一点：它的象征力量能够肯定和代表几乎任何一种宗教或哲学，但同时又不会被困在其中任何一种里，这或许正是它对如此多的人具有吸引力的原因。

And and so I think that's one of the things about astrology that's so unique is that its symbolic power can kind of affirm and represent just about any kind of religion or philosophy, but it also doesn't have to get stuck in any of them, which I think is probably why it's so attractive to so many people.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

For sure.

这让我想起一件有趣的事：我认识的几个最极端的占星术怀疑者，当我看到他们的出生星盘时，发现他们俩在夜盘中都有土星位于第九宫。

That makes me think of a funny thing like some A couple of the most extreme astrology skeptics I know of when I found their birth charts, they both had Saturn and the ninth house in a night chart.

这太有趣了，因为占星术本身似乎在说：你不会相信占星术，这其中有一种奇妙的意味。

And it was so funny because it was like the astrology itself was saying that you would not believe in astrology and there's a a funny kind of a, you know, thing to that.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

完全正确。

Totally.

我当时就想，有人问我：‘你把宗教抛在一边，会不会觉得迷失方向？’

I was like, well, you know, it's like someone asked me, they're like, don't you feel like kind of adrift?

就是说，抛开宗教信仰，你难道不会感到一点迷茫吗？

Like, just set aside your religion, you must feel a little lost.

我说：不会。

And I was like, no.

因为，你知道，冥王星位于第九宫，与我儿子在第三宫形成对冲，完美地象征了我从这段宗教经历中的脱离，这对我来说，只是让我对人生旅程充满了信任。

Because, you know, Pluto in the ninth house opposing my son in the third perfectly represented, you know, my departure from this religious experience, which to me just filled me with a sense of of trust in the in the journey of my life.

尽管目前我没有任何宗教归属，但那种感觉确实像是一种宗教体验。

And there's something about that, although I don't have any kind of religious affiliation at the moment that felt like a kind of religious experience.

我不知道还能怎么形容它。

I don't know how else to describe it.

所以我认为，这就是占星术的魔力所在。

So I think that's, you know, that's the magic of astrology.

你知道，我们在这里讨论的还有另一个类似的问题。

You know, there's another question along these lines that we're talking about here.

古代占星师是否相信，你的星盘包含了一套你必须完成的指令或学习课程，以实现成长？

Did ancient astrologers believe that your chart was a included a set of instructions or learning lessons that you were supposed to accomplish in order to evolve.

我现在立刻要说的是，像‘为了成长’这样的说法，我们可以加上，也可以省略。

Now I'll say that, like, right away, that sort of in order to evolve piece, we could tack that on or leave that out.

我认为，无论是否包含这一点，出生星盘都像是一套指令吗？

I think either way, is the birth chart like a set of instructions?

无论你是否相信星盘是一套引导你走向来世的指令，我认为我们已经达成共识，人们对此存在争议。

Whether you believe it's a set of instructions that carries you on to future lifetimes or not, I think we've already established that sort of people debate that.

你知道的。

You know?

但在古代占星学中，是否有人认为出生星盘包含了一套学习课程或指令？

But was there any sense in ancient astrology that the birth chart contained a set of learning lessons or instructions?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，‘进化’这部分只是回到了进化这个概念，而我认为这并不是古代占星学的组成部分，因为当时的人们主要关注的是能够排布星盘、观察占星现象，并据此描述一个人一生的主要事件、关键节点或人生主要篇章，这本身就已经非常了不起了。

I mean, the evolved part just goes back to the evolution part, and I don't think that was a component in ancient astrology at least because they were very much just focused on the wonder of being able to cast a chart and look at astrology and be able to say things about a person's entire life and what some of the main beats of a person's life are or what some of the main chapters of a person's life are and main subjects.

仅凭这一点就已经非常令人惊叹了。

And that in of itself is just like really impressive.

有时当人们希望占星学能做更多、超越这些时，我会想到那个梗——《角斗士》里的马克西穆斯在竞技场中说：‘难道你们不觉得，仅凭一个人出生的时刻，就能预测他未来六十年甚至九十年的人生轨迹，这已经足够震撼了吗？’

And sometimes when people want more than that or they want astrology to be more, to do more than that, I kind of think of like that meme of like Maximus from Gladiator when he's in the arena and he's like, Are you not entertained by being able to predict all these things about what will happen in a person's future from the moment they were born until they're 60 or 90 years old, that's already pretty impressive.

我们就别再苛求更多了，接受它本来的样子吧。

People, let's take that for what it is.

但除此之外，星盘本身，是的，尤其是某些基本的星体位置，当你进入古代占星学时，这种观念会发生转变：你不再认为所有星体位置在整个生命中都持续活跃，有时某些位置仅仅预示着人生中某个特定事件，这个事件将成为他人撰写你传记时，专门写一章来描述的关键时刻。

But otherwise, the chart itself, yeah, I mean, some of the basic placements especially and that's a reorientation when you're getting into ancient astrology is that instead of looking at all the placements as being active for the entire duration of the life, sometimes some of those placements will just indicate like a single specific event that will happen at some point in your life that will come to characterize if somebody was to write a biography about your life that they would write at some point a chapter about the time that that one thing happened.

有时候，这种影响已经足够，它不需要持续存在或以相同方式不断显现，才能具有相关性。

And sometimes that's sufficient and it doesn't have to be something that's continually present and continually manifesting in the same way in order for it to be relevant.

它只需要有时能告诉你一些关于一个人生命中重要且具有决定性意义的事情。

It just has to sometimes tell you something that will be significant and defining about a person's life.

而有时候，星盘在某些方面正是如此发挥作用的。

And and sometimes that's what the birth chart does in some areas.

是的。

Yeah.

我喜欢回到一个理由，至少再次说明，我不想过于教条，我确实容易在占星作为神谕这件事上变得非常教条。

I I like to one of the reasons that I go back to at least, again, not wanting to be too dogmatic, and I I have a tendency to get really dogmatic about the astrology as divination thing.

但我想提醒人们的是，在古代世界，去寻求神谕者（我这里用这个词是泛指）往往需要献上祭品。

But the the thing that I like to remind people of is that in the ancient world, to go and see a diviner I'm just using that word loosely, but to go and see a diviner would require sometimes a sacrifice.

你知道吗？

You know?

无论是长途跋涉，比如朝圣或去神庙，还是 literally 带一头山羊之类的，都可能是一种牺牲。

And whether that sacrifice was a long journey, like a pilgrimage or to a to a temple, or if it was, you know, sometimes literally like, bring your bring a goat, you know, or something like that.

在现代语境下，我觉得可能就像一个超越肉类汉堡之类的。

Like a beyond meat burger or something in a modern context, I think would be the

是的。

yeah.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

所以别在我的YouTube频道上惹怒PETA。

So don't, like, be don't piss off PETA on my YouTube channel.

但没错。

But yeah.

我的意思是，我们常常忘记的一点是，因为我们有现成的软件，有每日的占星内容，有不断滚动的信息，我们总是处于刷屏状态。

So, I mean, it it's I think one of the things that we forget is that because we have the software at our disposal, because we have daily astrological content, because we have scrolling, we know we're always scrolling.

有一些东西真的很酷。

There's a, and some of that's really cool.

我不是在试图，你知道的？

Like, I'm not at all trying to, like, you know?

所以这些事情都有它们的好处。

So those are there are benefits to all those things.

但正因为如此，也容易让人希望占星术能像某种东西一样，我们被它过度刺激，或者不知道如何从它中抽身。

But because of that, it's also easy to want astrology to be like a something that, you know, we're it's like we get overstimulated by it or we don't know how to unplug from it.

所以这就像是，是的，我觉得如果你每天都去见治疗师，治疗就会失去它的价值，因为让一些事情过去，然后再去和治疗师谈谈，这才是好的。

And so it's kind of like, yeah, I feel like, if you were to talk to your therapist every single day, therapy would sort of lose its value because it's good to let some water pass under the bridge and then go and speak to a therapist.

你知道吗？

You know?

你不需要记录下每一个梦，因为在梦境滋养课程中，他们会说，让一些梦的水流过去，然后你会发现有些梦真的特别突出。

You don't you don't wanna take note of every single dream you have because if you even in, like, dreamtending classes, they'll say, you know, like, let some let some dream water pass under the bridge, and then you'll notice that some really stand out.

我认为，生活中学会让很多事自然流逝，然后注意到有些事情格外突出，这是一门艺术。

And I think that there's an art to, like, letting a lot of things pass in life and then noticing that some things stand out.

当某些事情特别突出时——无论是经历还是事件——利用占星术来帮助我们理解它们，或用占星术来为我们预判一段可能有重要事件发生的时期，我认为这是它非常棒的用途。

And when the things really stand out, experiences or events, to use astrology to help us understand them or to use astrology to prepare us for a period of time where it's likely that some events are going to stand out, I think that's a really good use for it.

但我感觉我们确实可以这样做，至少我会称之为一种占卜式的思维模式。

But I feel like we can and I I would call that a kind of a divinatory mindset at least.

但如果我们总是期待占星术能提供一套持续不断、24/7全天候有效的指导原则或人生教训，那么我认为它很可能让我们失望，或者我们会开始沉迷于不断自我提升。

But it it seems like if we're always looking for astrology to give us a set of instructions or learning lessons that are, like, ever present twenty four seven all the time, then I think it it'll probably disappoint us, or we might get we might start getting obsessive about trying to improve ourselves.

而如果你采用我所描述的这种方式，你会发现，那些重要事件往往伴随着某种隐含的意义、人生启示或类似的东西自然浮现。

Whereas if you use it in the way that I'm describing, I think that you'll often find that those events will pop up with a set of implicit meaning or learning lessons or something like that.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

For sure.

我的意思是，这里面内容太多了。

I mean, there's a there's a lot there.

我想提一下你开头提到的一件事：越来越多的证据表明，在希腊罗马时期，尤其是在早期罗马帝国的埃及，占星术虽然并非唯一，但确实是埃及神庙中实践的活动之一。

One of things I wanted to mention in respect to something you said at the beginning of that was that there's more and more evidence that keeps coming out that astrology during the Greco Roman period, especially in the early Roman Empire in Egypt was something that was practiced not exclusively, but it was one of the things that was practiced in the Egyptian temples.

当人们带着问题或困惑来到神庙时，这些祭司会为他们绘制出生星盘，并在此背景下运用占星术作为占卜形式之一来提供解答。

And that when people would come to the temples with like an issue or question that there were these priests who would cast a person's birth chart and then try to provide answers within that context using astrology as one of the forms of divination.

因此，这不仅具有宗教意义，还带有某种神圣性，在古代世界的一些情况下，占星术具有更强烈的神圣感；而如今，在资本主义和占星术商品化的背景下，我们某种程度上失去了这种感觉——在古代世界，甚至在上个世纪之前，占星术并不容易为普通人所接触，你需要接受大量专业训练才能掌握。

And so there was a really, not just religious, but kind of like a sacred component to that and much more of a sacred sense to astrology in the ancient world in some instances, which is something that in modern times with the sort of under our current context of capitalism and the commodification of astrology that we've lost a little bit that probably would have been more present in the ancient world or even would have been more present prior to the past century when astrology was something that was less accessible to just normal everyday people and that you had to have a lot of really advanced training in order to access.

所以，这是我想要提到的一点。

So that was one thing I wanted to mention.

那么，你刚才提到的第二部分是什么？

And then what was the last part, the second part you were focused on?

我只是想说，如果我们能更选择性地使用占星术，我认为占星术似乎具有更多的可能性。

Just that if we are use Like in using astrology a little bit more selectively than I think that there are many astrology seems to have

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

就像频率一样。

Just like the frequency.

对。

Yeah.

而且它似乎能给我们带来启示，通过占星术，生活仿佛在向你提供某些指导或教训。

And it seems to provide us with lessons and that that that life through astrology can feel like it's giving you some instructions or lessons.

但我认为，从我个人的角度来看，我们不应该把占星术看作是：你的星盘有一套必须完成的功课。

But I think that it's really important, and just in my personal point of view, that we not look at astrology like, well, your chart has this set of lessons that you have to learn.

而更应该说，当你通过出生星盘的视角去理解生活时，你会发现，它向你反馈的一种方式，就是为你提供一些可能在你所经历的特定情境中需要学习的内容。

But more like as you relate to your life through the lens of your birth chart, you'll find that one of the ways in which it speaks or feeds back to you is that it it provides you with a set of what maybe are meant to learn within the context of something, something you're experiencing.

但要实现这一点，你必须确保自己不要像对待一套固定指令那样过度沉迷于它。

But it it seems that for it to do that, you have to make sure that you're not like obsessing over it like it's a a set of instructions.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我认为在一位学生或占星师的职业生涯中，我认识的每一位占星师都会经历不同的阶段，他们在关注自己出生星盘、行运，或周围人星盘与行运，乃至日常星象与世界事件的频率上，时高时低。

I mean, I think, you know, during the course of a student or an astrologer's career, every astrologer that I've ever known goes through different periods of like waxing or waning in terms of the level of frequency to which they pay attention to their own birth chart or their own transits or the birth charts and transits of everybody around them or the mundane transits and current world events.

不同的占星师会经历不同的阶段。

I different astrologers go through different stages.

尤其是在早期，每个人都会经历一个非常强烈、近乎痴迷的阶段，这在一定程度上是正常的，只要不走向不健康的状态，因为这是学习和沉浸过程的一部分。

And especially early on, there's a stage where everybody does that really intensely and sort of obsessively and that that's okay to a certain extent as long as it doesn't verge into being unhealthy just because it's part of the process of learning and immersion.

就像你想要学习阿拉伯语、古希腊语或梵语一样，沉浸其中的最好方式就是去那个国家生活，全天候地使用它。

And just as if you were immersing yourself in a language if you were trying to pick up Arabic or ancient Greek or Sanskrit or something like that, the best way to immerse yourself in the language is to go there and live there and just do that 20 fourseven.

这才是真正内化某种东西的方法。

And that's how you really internalize something.

但这种做法确实可能存在不健康的一面。

But there can definitely be an unhealthy version of that.

但总的来说，对占星师而言，占星术就像一种隐藏在现实背后的密码或语言，它在某种程度上告诉你每一刻正在发生什么。

But for the most part, it's still something that for astrologers, for people that become astrologers, astrology is like this code or this language that's happening behind reality that's sort of like telling you what's going on at any given moment in time.

有时它会告诉你一些重要的信息，这些信息可能与你最初对事件的看法相悖，但后来你会发现它是对的——这种反复出现的惊喜，即使我已经经历过上百次，依然让我感到惊讶。

And sometimes it tells you things that are important pieces information that may be contrary to what you initially think about events, but then later it will turn out to be true, which is a recurring surprise that I often have even having experienced that like hundreds of times.

每当我对某件事的体验和预期是某种方式，而占星术却告诉我这里另有玄机，事情会朝不同方向发展时，我总是感到震撼，而占星术往往最终被证明是正确的。

I'm always sort of impressed by when my experience of something of events is one way and I expect things to go one way, but the astrology is telling me there's something else going on here and it's going go a different way that the astrology often ends up being true.

我认为，我刚才想说的是，这其中仍有一个健康的层面：所有占星师都在用占星术作为探索自身生命目的或生命叙事的过程。

And I think there's still though where I was going with that is that there's a healthy component to that which is that all astrologers are using astrology as a process of studying the unfolding of their life purpose or life narrative.

在你的人生和占星师生涯中，你总会以不同阶段不断挖掘这些内容，有时会获得关于你出生星盘的新理解或新领悟，这是终身探索自我、了解自己为何而来的过程的一部分。

And during the course of your life and your career as an astrologer, you will always be digging that up in different stages and sometimes coming to new understandings or new realizations about your birth chart as part of a lifelong process of finding out who you are and what you're here to do.

作为占星师，我们所经历的这一现象本身就非常美好且有趣。

And there's something just very beautiful and very interesting about that as a phenomenon that we experience as astrologers.

没错。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

确实如此。

That's true.

我认为还有一种方式，就是自然而然地生活，并以占星作为反思生活的工具，有时我觉得这比试图用占星来弄清楚我为何存在、我该做什么更让我满足。

I think there's also this way in which just naturally living a life and using astrology as a way of reflecting upon it, sometimes I feel like that is more satisfying to me than using astrology to try to figure out why I'm here, what I'm supposed to do.

不过，我认为这两者并不互斥。

Although, I don't think they're mutually exclusive.

有时候，我觉得占星在给我反馈，告诉我如何实现个体化，或者我的人生目标是什么，或者在任何生活阶段或时刻中可能存在的功课。

Like, sometimes I feel like astrology is giving me this feedback about how to individuate or, yeah, what my purpose is or what the lessons might be in any situation or time in life.

还有另一个层面，它几乎就像你所说的那样，提供给我一种‘你难道不觉得精彩吗？’的感觉。

There's this other level where it it's almost as though astrology is just providing me this like you said, like, are you not entertained?

你知道的吧？

You know?

就像，占星术只是给了我一种原型的视角，让我去体会体验本身的丰富性。

Like like, astrology is just providing me this archetypal lens through which to appreciate the richness of experience itself.

所以，甚至只是能够反思一下，某件事的发生，你知道的，是在月亮与火星相对的时候发生的。

And so, like, even just being able to, like, reflect on the fact that the way something happened, you know, took place while the moon was opposite Mars.

你知道的吧？

You know?

哇，真的。

Like, oh, wow.

那可真够激烈的。

That got heated.

然后我想到月亮和火星是相对的，某种意义上，我胸口就像有个气球在膨胀。

Then I reflect on the fact that the moon was opposite Mars, and somehow I'm just it's like a balloon in my chest is just blowing up.

于是我感叹：哇。

And I go, wow.

我当时只是觉得事情变了，我就得去经历那一连串的事件和后果，也许我还得在争吵之后去和某人和好之类的。

I was it just changes then I have to experience that and that sequence of events and the consequences, and maybe I have to, you know, make up with someone after an argument or something.

但不知怎的，占星术本身，撇开其中的教训和意义，只是扩展了我们对体验本身的感知能力。

But somehow, astrology itself, a set aside the lessons and the purpose, just provides us with it expands our appreciating capacity for experience itself.

我认为，除了总是从星盘中挖掘道德或精神上的指令、意义之类的东西之外，拥有这样一种与占星术的关系也很重要。

And I think that it's important to have that kind of relationship to astrology alongside of always mining the chart for like moral or spiritual imperatives or like purpose or something.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

For sure.

保留那种对占星术竟然有效、其语言如此丰富、能如此精准描述人类体验不同层面的惊奇感。

To retain that sense of just like wonder that it works at all and and and how rich the language is and how well it can describe these different levels of human experience.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

完全正确。

Totally.

这很有趣。

This is interesting.

我们来看看。

Let's see.

我这正好和另一个问题吻合。

I've got a this dovetails with another question.

所以我们正在讨论命运，以及你来这里可能要学习的教诲或指令。

So we're talking about fate, and we're talking about instructions, things that you're maybe that that you're here to learn.

在古代世界，还存在着丰富的占星魔法实践，同时也有关于是否应该使用占星魔法的争论。

There was also a rich practice of astrological magic in the ancient world, and, there were also debates about whether or not astrological magic should be used or not.

我们无法告诉任何人对此该怎么做或不该怎么做。

We're not gonna be able to tell anyone what to do or not to do about this.

但你能为我们概述一下当时都有哪些观点吗？

But could you just outline for us, like, what were the views?

占星魔法是每个人都使用吗？

Was astrological magic used by everyone?

是一些占星师使用，而另一些不使用吗？

Was it used by some astrologers and not by others?

关于它的争论是怎样的？

What were the debates like about it?

那么，占星魔法在出生图方面的使用有哪些例子呢？

And and what would be some examples of how astrological magic was used in relation to the birth chart?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我认为在希腊罗马时期的希腊化传统中，一些更具斯多葛倾向的占星师与另一些人之间存在张力，前者认为占星术的目的是了解你的命运，以便你知道未来需要接受什么，从而不被意外打个措手不及。

I mean, I think there was a tension in the Hellenistic tradition in the Greco Roman period between some of the astrologers that were more stoically inclined who thought that you should The purpose of astrology was to learn your fate so that you knew what things you needed to accept in the future and wouldn't be blindsided by stuff.

我认为这一点非常重要，因为这是几乎每一位占星师都会反复提及的哲学原则或信条，说明这一定是一种普遍共识。

And I think that's really important to emphasize because it's the one philosophical principle or precept that just gets repeated amongst almost every astrologer so that it must have been like this commonly agreed upon thing.

就像我们用占星术所做的那样，或者说是其主要目的之一——无论你是否完全决定论，哪怕只是部分决定论，总有一些成分在于试图了解未来，从而明白你必须接受什么。

It's like that's what we're doing with astrology or that's one of the primary purposes whether you're fully deterministic or even just partially deterministic that there's some element where you're trying to learn the future to know what you have to accept.

但还有其他传统，你知道，甚至可以追溯到美索不达米亚，因为在公元前1000年左右的美索不达米亚，他们占星是为了城市或国家，但有时也会为了确定需要进行哪些安抚仪式来避免负面事件而占星。

But then there were other traditions, you know, going back to Mesopotamia even because astrology in Mesopotamia in like 1,000 BCE, they would do it for the city or the state, but then sometimes they would do it for the purpose of then figuring out what propitiation rituals would then need to be used in order to ward off any negative things.

有时他们还会玩点花样，比如实施‘替身国王’仪式：如果国王面临不祥之兆，就找个人暂代国王一两周，等灾祸过去后再让真国王复位，诸如此类的做法。

Or sometimes they'd try to get cute with it and do things like the substitute king ritual where it's like if there's a negative omen for the king, then let's switch out the king for like a week or two until that passes and then we'll put the king back in and different stuff like that.

因此，显然存在一种前存在的传统，其中包含某种魔法观念——通过预知未来来试图规避它，几乎像是一种时间旅行，或通过操控时间来影响或控制它。

So there was clearly a pre existing tradition that had some magical notions of finding out the future so that you can try to avoid it almost as a form of time travel or something like that and of working with time in order to manipulate or control it.

我认为这种观念后来又回归并延续到了希腊化传统中，出现了一个独立的魔法传统，认为占星的目的是预知命运，以便知道如何改变或修正它，并通过各种魔法手段实现这一点。

And I think that came back and continued into the Hellenistic tradition where there was this separate magical tradition that said, the purpose is to learn your fate in order to know how to change it or how to alter it, and that through different magical means you might be able to do this.

我发现了一篇非常精彩的文献，出自大约三四世纪的一位炼金术士佐西莫斯，他保存了我们正在讨论的两部占星文献的片段。

And I found this one really amazing text from I think this third or fourth century alchemist named Zosimas who preserves, some passages from these two astrological texts that we're debating about this.

其中一部归于赫尔墨斯·特里斯梅吉斯托斯，另一部则归于琐罗亚斯德。

And one of them was attributed to Hermes Trismegistus and the other was attributed to Zoroaster.

有趣的是，赫尔墨斯的文本主张一种更接近斯多葛派的命运观，与巴伦斯等作者的观点一致，认为占星的目的是预知未来，以明白哪些事情是你必须接受的。

And the Hermes text interestingly is the one that's arguing for more of a stoic position on fate that aligns more with authors like Balance where it's saying you learn the future in order to learn what you have to accept and that's the purpose of astrology.

而琐罗亚斯德的文本则认为，你可以通过占星预知自己的命运，但同时可以通过某些魔法手段尝试避免或减轻某些不利影响。

Then you have this Zoroaster text that's saying that you can learn your future, your fate through astrology, but then you can do certain magical things in order to attempt to avoid or mitigate certain things.

所以我认为，这是古代世界中不同占星家之间存在的争论，他们立场不同，或至少来自不同的视角。

So I think this was a debate that was happening in the ancient world with different astrologers on different sides or at least coming from different perspectives.

是的。

Yeah.

学生经常问我这个问题，我认为这需要每个人自己去探索。

It's, students ask me about that all the time, and I think it's for each individual to explore.

而且这也不是非黑即白的事情。

And it's not a black and white thing either.

另外，有人问了一个问题：你们中有谁会实践或使用占星魔法吗？

And just kinda going into another question that was asked was, do either of you practice or use astrological magic?

如果有，是到什么程度呢？

And if so, to, like, what extent?

为什么？

Why?

为什么是，或者为什么不是？

Why or why not?

我想，好吧。

I thought, okay.

嗯，我可以从个人角度谈谈这个。

Well, I can speak to this personally.

克里斯，如果你想回答，也可以。

Chris, if you wanna answer, you can.

你也可以选择不回答。

You can also decline.

但我说，你知道，我的回答是，我不做。

But I said, you know, my or my answer is, you know, so I don't.

我倾向于更注重学习如何与之协调，比如我会读《道德经》和《易经》。

I tend to be a little bit more I'm like, I I read the Tao Te Ching and the I Ching, and I tend to be a little bit more about learning how to align.

如果说我的实践中有什么魔法的话，那是一种基于协调的实践。

It's like, I would say if there's any kind of magic in my practice, it's an alignment based practice.

这有点像是用占星术来帮助我反思，现在是不是做某件事的合适时机，或者如何调整我正在做的事情中的方法。

It's sort of like using the astrology as a way of helping me maybe reflect upon if it's the right time to do something or not, you know, or maybe figuring out how to adjust my approach within something I'm doing.

所以我觉得，有一种试图让自己与正确的时间、正确的季节或正确的时刻保持一致的感觉，或者把行星当作一种反馈，来行走道、走这条路，达到某种宇宙和谐的状态。

So there's a I feel like there's a sense of of trying to align myself with the right time or the right season or the the right moment or to use the planets as a kind of feedback to walk the dao, walk the path, be be in some kind of cosmic harmony or something.

你可以把这称为一种魔法，我想。

You could call that, I guess, a kind of magic.

但对我而言，这更接近于一种不试图强加自己的意志或过多操控什么的感觉。

But it it's probably a little bit closer for me to that sense of just, like, sort of ex not trying to assert my will or manipulate anything so much.

但与此同时，我也可以说，我花了大约十年的时间与阿亚瓦斯卡工作。

But at the same I can say that by the by the same token, you know, I spent about a decade of my life working with ayahuasca.

与阿亚瓦斯卡工作，无疑是一种植物疗法，一种描述方式是，你用它来疗愈你心理上所面对的问题，或者如果你愿意的话，也可以称之为疗愈你的业力问题。

Working with, ayahuasca is definitely like a a plant medicine that's helping in you know, one way of describing is that you're using it to try to remediate things that you're dealing with psychologically or if you wanna call it, your karmically or something.

我和妻子最近启动了一个名为‘根与球’的项目，这是一个每月一次的月相圈活动，我们不仅追踪当月的星象，还会食用一种我们认为能帮助我们在每个朔望周期中找到正确契合感的植物导师。

So and and my wife and I teach a program that we just started called Roots and Spheres, which is a monthly moon circle where we we track the astrology for the month, but we also diet a plant teacher that we feel like could help us to find that right alignment within every lunar cycle.

我想，历史上很可能有很多占星师都像这样：比如，在月亮的这一侧、这个星座下采摘草药，或者用某种草药治疗某种疾病，但总体上仍试图走一条接纳而非刻意主宰或操控星象能量的道路。

So I think it's probably I'm guessing that there probably have been a lot of astrologers throughout history, like this where there there may have been the, you know, go pick your herbal medicine under this side of the moon, under this in this sign, or, you know, use this herbal medicine for this kind of ailment, but while still broadly speaking, trying to walk a path of acceptance rather than, you know, willful domination or manipulation of astrological energies.

但我想强调的是，这并不是非黑即白的。

But I don't think it's point being is that I don't think it's been black and white.

我不认为这意味着你只是被动地接受每一件事，完全不采取任何行动，也没有任何魔法般的调整或干预。

I don't think it's like, well, either you just sit back and passively accept every last thing, and there's no practice of any any kind, no magical remediation or anything.

或者你每天都在制作护身符，试图操控每一件事。

Or it's like, you know, you're you're making an amulet every day to try and manipulate every last thing.

所以我猜，在占星历史上的许多实践者，大多都处于某种中间状态。

So I'm I'm guessing that a lot of practitioners throughout astrological history have sort of fallen in the middle someplace.

克里斯，你想对这个问题说点什么吗？

Do you wanna take a swing at this question, Chris?

是的。

Yeah.

这里面内容太多了，我很喜欢你刚才说的。

There's so much there, and I like what you said.

我的意思是，有一点需要注意的是，从一些斯多葛哲学家的思想中可以清楚地看到，我们有时会把命运理解为一种外部的东西，比如我们的处境。

I mean, one of the things to be aware of that comes through really clear in some of the stoic philosophers is sometimes we conceptualize fate as like this external thing of like our circumstances.

但在斯多葛哲学传统中，你的命运不仅包括外部处境，还包括你的内在状态——比如你是怎样的人、你的性格特质、你对某些行为的倾向、你的情绪气质等等。

But in the stoic philosophical tradition, it's like your fate is not just your external circumstances but also your internal circumstances of like who you are, like what your character traits are, what your proclivities towards certain actions are, your temperament and different things like that.

所以命运并非只是一个外在的概念，甚至有时你的部分行为和选择也可能是早已注定的。

So that it's not just an external notion of fate, but even the notion sometimes that some of your actions and your choices might be predetermined as well.

这一点会在某些占星技法中体现出来，比如希腊化时期的 zodiac releasing（黄道释放法），尤其是从灵神宫启动的黄道释放，它和你为找到职业、完成使命所要采取的行动紧密关联，也就是要实现你的意志和内在潜能过程中该完成的事。

And sometimes that shows up in certain techniques like zodiac releasing in the Hellenistic tradition where especially zodiac releasing from a lot of spirit is very much keyed in with the actions that you'll take in order to find your career and accomplish what you're supposed to do here in terms of the actualization of your will and your internal potential.

有时候你会惊讶地发现，这个技法精准地契合了你做的那些重要决定——这些决定并非由外部境遇催生，反而来自我们做出的内在选择，而在我们的主观体验里，这些选择明明都是完全出于自由意志的。

And it's kind of startling sometimes to see that technique objectively lining up very well sometimes with you making important decisions that came not as a result of external circumstances but sometimes as a result of internal choices that we make that we have the experience of as being completely free will choices.

所以在区分内在命运和外在命运这方面，情况就会变得有点复杂：有可能不只是你的外部境遇会受命运支配，你的部分内在特质也可能如此。

So there gets a little bit of trickiness there in terms of internal versus external fate and the potential that it's not just your external circumstances that may be subject to fate, but there could be some internal things there as well.

但话虽如此，我确实会非常频繁地使用择时占星术，我记得几年前，大概是2019年末，我曾和奥斯汀·科波克聊过一次占星术与魔法相关的话题。

But that being said, do use one electional astrology very frequently which I think I had a conversation with Austin Coppock a few years ago in late twenty nineteen I think on astrology and magic.

那次交流稍稍改变了我的看法，让我进一步意识到，择时占星术几乎可以说是一种魔法：当你运用择时占星术时，你至少是在尝试扭转事态的发展轨迹，将事情推向更顺利的方向，或是驶入一条与你期望的结果更契合的轨道。

And that sort of changed my views a little bit and made me realize a little bit more that electional astrology really is almost kind of like magic because when you're using electional astrology, you're really trying to at the very least alter the trajectory of things and put things on a better path or a better course that's more in alignment with the outcome that you would like to see happen.

而这也正是那些从事占星魔法，或是泛泛参与各类魔法实践的人们同样在努力实现的目标。

And that's very much what people that are involved in astrological magic or just magic in general are trying to do as well.

从它确实能发挥作用这个层面来看，它在某种程度上的确带有魔法的色彩。

And it is kind of magical in a way to the extent that it works.

择时占星有时能让你改变事物，使结果更符合你的目标或期望。

Electional astrology can sometimes allow you to change things or to make things work out in a way that matches your goal or your desired outcome.

我认为，这是占星术中让你最强烈感受到自由意志、并能主动改善事物的领域。

I think that's the area of astrology that gives you the greatest sense of free will and the ability to alter control things for the better out of anything.

但话说回来，没有什么比试图寻找一组择时日期却迅速意识到你没有无限选择时，更能让你深刻体会到命运的限制了——时间、地点和现实条件会对你施加种种限制，让你永远无法找到完美的理想择时星盘。

But that being said, nothing will teach you about the restrictions of fate faster than trying to find a set of electional dates and realizing very quickly that you don't have unlimited options and that the circumstances of time and location and practicality impose certain restrictions on you so that you're never going to find the perfect ideal electional chart.

星盘中总有些地方不够理想，或你不满意，你最终不得不接受这些作为换取你喜欢部分的妥协。

There's always going to be some things in it that are not optimal or that you don't like and that you end up having to accept as trade offs for things that you do like.

这就为命运与自由意志的对话增添了一个有趣的层面：有时你面前有选择，能够有意识地决定哪些是你要接受的好事，哪些是坏事，并通过关注你启动行动的时刻，以及每次时刻所蕴含的潜在可能性，持续做出权衡。

And that becomes an additional sort of interesting part of the fate and free will dialogue is sometimes having the choice in front of you and being able to make the choice consciously of what the good things and the bad things are that you're going to accept on an ongoing basis by paying attention to the moment in which you're initiating actions and what the potential is in each of those moments every single time.

这让你对命运与自由意志的问题及其相互作用有了切身的体验。

It really gives you a very like firsthand experience of the fate free will issue and the interplay between those two areas.

是的。

Yes.

请继续。

Go ahead.

还有一件事，即使事情在某种程度上甚至完全被预先决定，我认为作为占星师，我一直说的是：我们必须假装事情并非如此，因为占星术在预测未来时存在固有的局限性，无法100%确定会发生什么。

There was one last thing which is just even if things are predetermined to some extent or even a 100%, I think as astrologers, something I've always said is that we have to act as if they are not because of the limitations of being able to say 100% what will happen with astrology.

由于占星术是一种通过象征和预兆运作的语言，总存在一道屏障——你无法像拿出水晶球、凝视未来，看到一部精确展示所有细节和事件顺序的电影那样清晰地预见未来。

Because astrology is a language that works through symbolism and omens, there's always going to be like a barrier where you can't It's not like getting out a crystal ball and looking into the future and seeing like a movie that shows you exactly what's going to happen in terms of all the details and the sequence of events.

有时占星术的预测更为宽泛，尽管它也可能非常先进、令人印象深刻，比如你在预测非常具体事件方面能走多远。

Sometimes it's more broad than that even though it can be quite advanced and quite impressive like how far you're able to go with that in terms of predicting very specific things.

但是

But

然而，没有任何占星师能在事情真正发生、看到其完整显现和具体展开之前，获得100%的确定性。

nonetheless, no astrologer is ever 100% certain until they get there and they see the full manifestation and the particular way that things work out.

正因如此，这种100%的不确定性留下了回旋余地——你绝不能完全放弃，认为自己已确切知道未来会发生什么，更不应被动接受你认为会发生在自己身上的任何负面事件，无论它们来自你的星盘、行运还是其他因素。

And as a result of that, that lack of 100% certainty leaves wiggle room where you should never resign yourself 100% to thinking that you know exactly what's going to take place in the future and that you should just accept especially any negative things that you think are going to happen in your life based on your chart or your transits or what have you.

相反，我们始终应努力追求最好的结果和最有利的情境，因为很多时候，至少作为占星师，当我们这样去做时，会发现未来的实际结果并没有我们预期的那么糟糕，或者事情最终的发展远比我们最初悲观的假设或想法要好得多。

But instead, we have to always try to push for the best possible outcomes and push for the best possible scenario because oftentimes, sometimes at least as astrologers, we do that, we'll find that the outcome in the future was not as bad as we expected or that there was a much more favorable way that things ended up turning out than our initial pessimistic assumptions or thoughts about something.

因此，我认为，即使我们采取最决定论的思维模式，占星术中依然存在某种自由意志。

So I think that's where there's a sort of free will that lies in astrology even if we're adopting like the most deterministic mindset.

这是个非常好的观点。

That's a great that's a great point.

我在进行占星 archetype 预测时，有时会用一个比喻。

I sometimes use the analogy when it comes to archetypal prediction.

你知道，如果作为一名占星师，你试图像大卫·科波菲尔那样让人大吃一惊，那你可能是在试图投出一支飞镖，直接命中靶心。

You know, if, you know, if as an astrologer, you're trying to be like David Copperfield and wow people, you know, you're probably trying to throw one dart and hit the bull's eye.

我认为，作为象征性、赫尔墨斯式的活动——我称之为象征性和 archetype 性质的——我们更像是一次投出五支飞镖，努力让全部五支都击中靶板。

I think what we're really trying to do as symbolic, you know, as an as as a hermetic activity that's symbolic and archetypal in nature, I'll call it that, is more like taking five darts and just trying to hit the board with all five of them.

如果我从五个完全不同的角度来描述土星与一个人金星相冲可能意味着什么，并且我努力保持这些解读的主题一致性，

The likelihood is that if I describe what Saturn opposing a person's Venus could mean in five different ways, you you know, completely unique ways of reading that symbolic interaction, and I try to keep those thematic.

比如，金星的成熟。

You know, for example, the maturation of Venus.

你知道，金星相关的事务变得更加成熟，比如一段感情像陈年美酒一样愈久愈醇，或者一段关系的终结，我会用不同的方式来描述这些可能性。

You know, Venusian things becoming more a love relationship becoming more mature, like a wine that's aging well or something, or the death of a relationship or so I describe them in different ways.

当我与客户交谈时，这五种解读中很可能有一种会非常接近甚至直接命中靶心。

It's likely that one of those darts, when I'm speaking to a client, will have hit really close to the bull's eye, if not bull's eye.

在这样做的过程中，每当有人刚开始学习占星时，总会有人问：这不算作弊吗？

And in doing so, people, there's always someone when they are first learning about astrology, they'll be like, isn't that cheating?

你知道的吧？

You know?

其实并不是这样。

And it's like, well, no.

只要我的目标不是像大卫·科波菲尔那样，用精确的预测来让人惊叹，那就不是作弊。

Not if I'm not not if my goal isn't to try to impress someone with my predictive, you know, concrete concrete predictive success like a like a like a David Copperfield.

你知道的吧？

You know?

而且，当我们以这种方式学习解读行运或理解占星预测时，还有一件事也随之发生。

And and I think that the other thing that that does too when we learn to read transits or, understand astrological prediction in this manner.

在某些情况下，比如占卜问卜中，如果有人问：我们正打算怀孕，我们会成功吗？

And there's some cases like in horary where maybe that's not appropriate if someone's saying, like, we're trying to conceive, will I will we be successful?

你可能就不想那样做了，因为有些占星形式我认为更具具体的预测性，人们可能会被这些形式吸引，也可能不会。

You may not wanna, you know, that there there are forms of astrology that I think may be more concretely, you know, predictive, and people may or may not be drawn to those or whatever.

但你知道，如果我们用这种方式来看出生星盘，那么我们还可以做的一件事就是，明白这一点。

But but, you know, if we if we work this way with birth charts, then the other thing that we can do is we can knowing, okay.

接下来会有一股土星与金星的能量到来。

There's this realm of Saturn Venus possibilities that are coming in.

如果你说，哦，我的关系中存在一些裂痕。

Then if you say, oh, there's some fault lines in my relationship.

嗯，接下来一年这些能量就会显现。

Well, it's and, you know, the strand's coming in the next year.

如果你知道这些裂痕在哪里，什么时候是开始沟通的好时机呢？比如，嘿。

What's a good time if you know that you can start talking like, hey.

我们去接受一些治疗吧。

We let's go get some therapy.

我们一起去做心理咨询吧。

Let's go to counseling together.

当你对这些裂痕的位置有所觉察时，就可以主动采取行动了。

You can be proactive when you have some sense of where those fault lines are.

或者，比如说，客户会来，可能他们即将经历冥王星进入水瓶座的第一宫，我曾多次对了解占星且担心健康的人说过这样的话。

Or, like, for example, you know, clients will come in and maybe they have Pluto ingressing into their first house in Aquarius coming up, and I've heard myself say more than a few times to people who know astrology and are worried about their health.

别等到危机发生才行动。

Well, don't wait for a crisis.

如果你知道一些明显的基本方法，你知道，你可以稍微更好地照顾自己，而且你也知道那些方法是什么。

If you if there are some basic obvious ways, you know, you might be able to take care of yourself a little bit better, and you know what those are.

我不知道。

I don't.

但如果你知道那些方法，现在就去做吧，因为好好照顾自己又能有什么坏处呢？

But if you know what those are, do them now because, you know, what could be the harm in just taking better care of yourself?

而且，你永远不知道，如果你生病了或遇到其他状况，你是否也因此创造了一个更有韧性的环境。

And then you you never know how you might also be creating an environment in which you have a little bit more resilience if you if you get sick or whatever.

所以我认为，是的。

So I think, yeah.

总之，我只是想对你提到的那些观点提供一些反馈。

So, anyway, I'm just just kind of, some some feedback about some of those points you made.

真的，我完全同意这些观点。

Really, yeah, couldn't agree more with those.

对。

Yeah.

这让我想到，也许我们可以用一句话来总结一下。

That made me think maybe there's a way we could summarize that in a sentence.

我不知道这是否完美，但在这里我们一起探讨一下：占星术的成功不在于你能否准确预测每个具体案例中的确切结果，而在于你能否很好地描述 overarching 的原型。

I don't know if this is perfect, but just workshopping this here that the success of astrology is not in how well you predict the exact concrete outcome in each individual case, but rather in how well you can describe the overarching archetype.

因为正如你所说，正如理查德·塔纳斯所言，占星术是原型预测性的，它向你展示的是可以描述的原型，也就是那种 overarching 的象征性框架。

Because really astrology, as you said and as Richard Tarnas says, astrology is archetypally predictive and that it shows you the archetype that you can describe which is like the overarching umbrella symbolism.

然后，这种象征性会以许多不同的方式具体化，你可以通过这些方式接触到原型。

And then there's gonna be many individual ways that that symbolism can manifest in specific ways and that you can access the archetype.

但有时要精准把握具体的个体表现会比较困难，因为这其中涉及太多不同的因素。

But sometimes it's harder to get a bull's eye on the specific individual manifestation because of how many different factors are involved in doing that.

但归根结底，如果你能描述出这个原型，它依然会做到两点：第一，准确；第二，令人惊叹，因为你竟然能做到这一点。

But again, it goes back to that thing where if you can describe the archetype, it's still gonna, A, be accurate and B, be really impressive that you can do that at all.

因为现实地说，如果我们暂时跳出占星师的圈子，这本来是不应该有效的。

Because realistically, if we step outside of our astrologer bubble for a minute, that shouldn't work.

我们不应该能够根据当前、过去或未来的行星排列，从象征层面描述未来会发生什么。

We shouldn't be able to describe archetypally what's going to happen in the future based on the alignment of the planets in the present, the past, or the future.

从客观的科学、现代唯物主义立场来看，这本来就不该有效。

That just from an objective scientific modern materialist standpoint shouldn't work.

有很多人还没真正学习过占星术或研究过行运之类的内容，就先入为主地认为它根本无效。

And there's many people that assume before they've actually learned astrology or studied things like transits that it just doesn't work.

然而，我们占星师反复经历的一个体验就是，对占星术确实有效感到震惊和惊叹，然后试图探索它能走多远，以及在预测具体细节方面能多接近成为一种预测性科学。

However, one of our recurring experiences that every astrologer has is just the sense of astonishment and wonder that it does actually work and then trying to see how far you can go with it and how close to making it a sort of predictive science you can get in terms of predicting the specifics.

我们会尽可能地把这一点推向极致。

And we take that as far as we can go.

但我有时会为每个星体位置提供详细的解读。

But one of the things that I do sometimes is provide delineations for each placement.

我会做三次解读，先说：这是这个象征原型。

I'll do three delineations where I'll say, Here's the archetype.

我会尽可能广泛地描述特定组合的原型，比如金星与土星合相。

And I'll try to describe the archetype as broadly as I can of a specific combination, let's say Venus conjunct Saturn.

我会说，这是这种组合在你生活中某种特定情况下可能呈现的积极方式。

And I'll say, Here's one positive way that this could manifest in a specific circumstance in your life.

然后是第二种描述，这是一种更消极的方式，说明它可能在你生活的某种特定情境中显现。

And then here's a second delineation that's a more negative way that this could manifest in your life in a specific scenario.

最后，第三种是更中性的表现方式。

And then finally, here's a third one that is a more neutral manifestation.

这样就提供了一个范围，既描述了原型，也试图更具体地说明它在正负光谱上各种可能的表现方式。

And then that gives a sort of range of both describing the archetype as well as trying to get more specific about different ways that it could manifest in a range of positive or negative ways on that full spectrum.

然后，你会与客户交流，探讨它目前是如何显现的，以及它是否落在了这种体验光谱的某一边。

And then, you know, asking the client or talking to the client about how it has manifested at this point and if it's been on one side of that spectrum of experience or another.

我认为这很重要，因为最近我在推特上看到一位年轻学生抱怨，占星师在使用星盘案例时，往往已经知道结果，只关注某个星体位置，然后用极其具体的方式描述这个位置是如何在客户身上体现的。

And I think that's important because I saw somebody on Twitter recently that was like a younger student who was kind of complaining that astrologers tended to use chart examples where they already knew what the outcome was and they were focused on the placement but then describing it in these super specific ways of this is how the placement manifested for the client in this super specific way.

他们感到沮丧，因为说：‘但你事先能预测到这一点吗？’

They were frustrated because they said, But would you have said that ahead of time?

你能在事前预测出这种具体而明确的表现吗？

Would you have predicted that specific concrete manifestation ahead of time?

我认为重要的是要理解，当占星师使用这些高度具体的例子并描述结果时，其目的是为了教导学生，也让占星师自己明白，这种 archetype 在一个人生活中确实会以这种方式显现，因为作为学生，了解所有可能的表现形式至关重要——因为有时，某些事情在一个人生活中以你未曾预料或未曾想到的方式出现，仅仅是因为你从未考虑过这种可能性。

And I think what's important to understand is when astrologers use these highly specific examples and then describe the outcome, the purpose is to teach students and also for the astrologers themselves to have learned this is a specific manifestation in a person's life of this archetype because it's really important as a student or for a student to learn the full range of manifestations because sometimes there can be unique ways that things can come about in a person's life that you didn't expect or didn't anticipate because you just didn't consider that as a possibility.

但你对占星学了解得越多，越能考虑到不同 archetype 可能产生的各种表现，你就越能更好地在未来做出具体的预测。

But the more you learn about astrology and the more you consider different possible manifestations that could happen with from different archetypes, the better you can be about trying to make specific predictions in the future.

对。

Right.

而且，你知道，这又回到了我一开始提到的一点：有时我会发现，学习传统占星的学生会说，那些文本看起来太宿命论了。

And, you know, that goes back to something that I said at the beginning, which is that sometimes I'll find that students of traditional astrology will say, those texts seem so fatalistic.

对。

Right.

我认为其中一部分其实更多是关于语言、语气和文化，因为如果你读一读，比如菲米库斯·马特努斯的著作，他的书里充满了各种命盘解析，比如某个行星组合、行星相位、行星与宫位等等。

And I think some of that is actually more about language and tone and culture because, you know, if you read, for example, Firmicus Maternus, whose book is, like, just chock full of delineations, you know, this this planetary combination or planets making aspects and planets and houses and so and so forth.

你会在古代文献中发现各种各样的命盘解析。

And and you'll find, you know, all sorts of delineations in ancient in ancient text.

但我告诉我的学生，没有理由认为他们在本质上与我们有太大不同，也就是说，他们可能并没有预见到那么多，有些情况下甚至可能更字面化。

But I tell my students there's no reason to believe that they were that different from us in the sense that, you know, they they would have anticipated not so much and maybe in some cases, were people who were more super literal.

比如，如果你有这种组合，那就意味着一只野狗会咬掉你的胳膊之类疯狂的事情。

Like, if you have this combination, then it means that a wild dog will bite off your arm or something something like crazy.

但我认为你也可以从象征的角度来解读这些文本。

But I think you can read those texts archetypally as well.

所以，我觉得这些文本的写法实际上是在教你理解潜在象征价值或对应关系的不同表现形式。

So, you know, there's almost I feel like the the texts are written in a way that is is teaching you about different manifestations of the underlying symbolic values or or correspondences.

比如说，当你有金星和土星时，你会看到一长串的命盘解读。

So it's like, you know, if you have Venus and Saturn, you'll see a list of delineations.

当我们阅读古代文本时，往往会倾向于把这一长串内容当作食谱一样照单全收。

And that list when we read the ancient texts, there's a tendency to wanna take that list literally like a cookbook.

然后我们就认为，古代占星师们如此狭隘、局限且字面化。

And then we think, well, ancient astrologers, they were so narrow and limited and literal.

但我并不认为他们真的如此，因为你能看到不同文本之间这些命盘解读有多么多样。

But I don't think they actually were because you see how diverse those delineations were from text to text.

实际上，这些文本本身很可能是在教导学生从更深层的象征层面去思考互动关系。

And really, the texts themselves were probably teaching students to think about symbolic interactions on a kind of an underlying level.

比如，这里有一系列的占星描述，但如果你在学习占星学，你会把这些表现视为可能性，而不是一份必须严格预测的固定清单。

Like, here's here's a list of delineations, but if you're studying astrology, you would be looking at those those manifestations, as possibilities, not just a concrete list of of ways you should always predict.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

那是一只象征性的狗，会咬掉你的手臂，而不是一只真正的狗；有时候，你会感觉仿佛被狗象征性地活活吃掉。

It's a metaphorical dog that will bite off your arm rather than a literal literal dog, metaphorical metaphorically eaten alive by dogs is how you'll feel during this during this year sometimes.

是的，我的意思是，你说过，古代的占星文本似乎都采用了一种教学式的方法，给出极端的例子，并且尤其像菲米库斯这样非常夸张的占星家，往往会把事情描述为最极端的可能表现，因为这些描述本意是激发联想，引导你去理解背后更深层的原型。

Yeah, I mean, you said, the ancient astrological texts all seem to have this pedagogical approach to teaching where they give extreme examples and they tend to frame, especially some astrologers like Firmicus who's very over the top, tend to frame things as the most extreme possible manifestation for teaching purposes because those delineations are meant to be evocative and to point you to overarching archetype that's underlying those delineations.

而你对这些富有感染力的例子理解得越深入，越能意识到它们指向的是更广泛的意义，你就越有可能准确预测出更具体的结局，或是这些结局在光谱上更中性甚至积极的变体。

And then the more that you can understand those evocative examples as pointing to something broader, the better of a chance you're gonna have of predicting more specific outcomes or different variations of those outcomes on a spectrum that might be a little bit more neutral or even good.

但每当你想建立一个光谱时，首先必须确立两端的极端情况。

But anytime like you want to establish a spectrum, you first have to establish the extremes.

这些极端之一就是，比如说，完全吉兆——最好的可能结果， versus 完全凶兆——最坏的可能结果。

So one of those extremes is like, you know, fully benefic, like what is the best possible outcome versus fully malefic, what is the worst possible outcome.

一旦你确立了这些极端，就能找到中间的各种灰色地带。

Once you've established those extremes, then you can find the different shades of gray in the middle.

在阅读这些内容时，这一点非常重要。

And that's really important to keep in mind when you're reading that stuff.

话虽如此，偶尔你还是会看到一些古代文本中的描述，在新闻里出现类似的情况：比如2022年或2023年，有人因意外被狗咬死，或者被一群野狗袭击之类的。

That being said, it's like every once in a while, you know, some of those ancient texts, you'll see something in the news where it's like, you know, it's 2022, 2023 and somebody through a freak accident just got eaten by a dog or something like that or like a pack of wild dogs or something like that.

尽管我们现在生活在

And it's like even though we're living

难以置信？

Un entertained?

是的，没错。

Yeah, exactly.

我的意思是，极端奇怪、离谱的不幸或极其幸运的事情，仍然会发生在人们身上，发生在我们周围人的生活中。

I mean, still sometimes extreme weird bizarre either misfortunate or extremely fortunate stuff does happen in people's lives and in the lives of people around us.

因此，了解这些最极端的可能结果以及与之相关的因素是很重要的。

And so it's good to be aware of those most extreme possible outcomes and what would correlate with that.

我经常对Reddit上的不同子版块感到着迷，那里的人们会分享他们的故事。

Like I'm constantly fascinated by like on Reddit, there's different subreddits where people post their stories.

这些极端的人类经历，无论是极其正面还是极其负面的场景，都真实地发生在普通人身上。

And just like these extreme human stories of human experience of extremely positive or extremely negative scenarios that happen in real people's lives.

作为占星师，我的本能是去观察这些经历与星盘中哪些因素相关，以便更好地理解它们在星盘中的表现，从而更有效地与人交流。

And then just my impulse as an astrologer to see what correlated with that so I can understand better what that looks like in a chart and then can be able to talk to people better.

比如，如果客户的情况与这种极端体验在某种程度上相似，即使只是更轻微、不那么极端的版本，但仍然属于同一类情况。

If it's a client, for example, if they have something that's just in the neighborhood or the ballpark of that extreme experience, even if it's in a much more not neutral, but let's say, you know, lower level version of the same thing.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得是的。

I think yeah.

我回到这段对话的开头，主要想说的是，古代文献并不像有些人认为的那样，我们现在更注重象征和原型，而过去只是字面且宿命论的。

And my and my main point going back to the start of this conversation was, you know, the ancient texts are not sometimes people will think, well, we're we're we're more symbolic and archetypal now.

对吧？

Right?

他们当时只是纯粹字面和宿命的。

They were just literal and fatalistic then.

我希望今天我们的讨论能表明，古代占星师对命运、自由意志、两者之间的互动、魔法择时，或这种斯多葛式的接受，其实有着丰富的细微差别。

And I I hope in today what we've shown is that there was actually a lot of nuance in the way that ancient astrologers looked at fate, free will, the interaction between the two magic elections, or this kind of stoic acceptance.

当时存在着一个非常有趣的思想熔炉。

And there was this really interesting cauldron of ideas.

而且，这些文献本身，尽管其中有些内容可能显得极端，但它们的目的是教导人们象征性思维，而这种思维并不局限于文本中给出的描述范围。

And also that texts themselves, although some of that there can be extremes that these texts were meant to teach people symbolic thinking, which was not limited to the scope of the delineations in the text itself.

所以，是的，我认为我们已经相当清楚地确立了这一点。

So, yeah, I think we've established that pretty well.

我想最后再讨论一个问题：当我刚开始学习占星时，以及很多学生在接触希腊化占星之前，如果他们只接触过现代占星，他们往往会带着这样一个观念：出生图仅仅代表可能性。

One last question that I wanna talk about is that when I first started studying, and a lot of the time when I when students come to study Hellenistic and they've been exposed to, like, nothing but modern astrology, one of the things that they'll come in with and that I was exposed to when I first started studying too is this idea that the birth chart is nothing but possibilities.

那仅仅是一组可能性或潜在性。

That that that is just kind of a set of possibilities or potentials.

那正是我刚才想到的另一个词。

That's the other word I was thinking of.

在我们讨论的 archetype 组合中，听起来几乎像是我们在说，这完全是潜在的可能性。

In what we're talking about with the archetypal combinations, it can almost sound like what we're saying is that, well, it's it's total potential.

当土星即将与你出生图中的金星合相时，这仅仅是一个充满可能性与潜在性的曼陀罗，而是否能把握住它，似乎就落在了你自己的肩上。

When when Saturn's gonna come and conjoin Venus in your birth chart, that's just a a there's just a mandala of possibilities and potentialities, and it sort of rests on your shoulder to, like, get the right get it right or something like that.

也许我们可以稍微谈谈这个观点的来源，以及你对此的想法。

Maybe we can speak a little bit about that idea and where that comes from and, yeah, just your thoughts about that.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，在二十世纪后期的占星学中，尤其是六七十年代进入这一领域的占星师群体，当现代深度心理学——特别是卡尔·荣格的理论——被全面融入占星学时，那些继承鲁迪亚尔思想的占星师，比如莉兹·格林、哈茨·西斯博迪斯以及其他一大批现代占星师，由于将心理咨询的元素引入占星实践，他们极度担心会通过灌输虚假的恐惧或情境来对人造成心理伤害，从而几乎走向了另一个极端，呈现出一种近乎天真乐观的视角，看待每一个可能的星盘配置。某种程度上，这确实有其积极意义：他们帮助我们从传统中一些最极端的观念中解脱出来，比如总是把土星视为负面，而即使在传统占星中，土星也并非必然如此，或总是将某些配置解读为极端负面。

I think in late twentieth century astrology and the generation of astrologers especially that came into the field in the nineteen sixties and nineteen seventies when the integration of modern depth psychology, especially the work of Carl Jung was like fully integrated into astrology in the generation that took up Rudhyar's work, especially with astrologers like Liz Greene and Hartz Sisbordis and other actually a number of other, a whole group of modern astrologers, because they were integrating counseling dynamics into astrology, they were so concerned about and so worried about not doing harm psychologically to people by instilling them with false fears or scenarios or other things like that that would sort of disturb their mental state that they almost went too far in presenting an almost like Pollyanna type view of every possible placement, which to a certain extent that was good that they sort of talked us down as a tradition from some of the worst case things like always considering Saturn to be negative, which it wasn't necessarily even in traditional astrology or always interpreting certain things as extremely negative.

这种绝对避免任何负面表述的趋势，已经走得太远了。

There was such an extreme trend to never say anything negative that it went too far.

我们确实看到了这种倾向的反面，或者在2020年这样的情况下出现了相应的后果，当时许多占星师预测那将是一个艰难的时期，原因各异，有的预测得更严重，有的则没那么严重。

And we really saw the opposite end of that or there were repercussions of that in instances like in 2020 for example, where there were a lot of astrologers that predicted that it was gonna be a tough time for various reasons and went further or not as far than others.

但我在那个时期观察这个社群时学到的一件事是：如果一位占星师在哲学上选择从不说任何负面内容，那么当负面事件真的发生时，就会有一些人事后质问：你为什么没告诉我？

But one of the things I really learned from that time period in watching the community was just the downside of if an astrologer makes a philosophical choice never to say anything negative, then there are going to be some people afterwards when a negative event does happen that say, Why didn't you tell me?

你知道吗？你为什么隐瞒了这些信息？

Know, Why did you withhold that information?

或者，为什么你非要把它包装得如此积极，而我实际经历的却是一段真实的创伤与艰难？

Or why did you try to spin it in such a constructive light when what I actually experienced was a real time of trauma and hardship?

我认为，我们从古代占星术中获得的非常有价值的一点是，我们重新找回了谈论具体外部事件的能力，并更现实地承认：有时这些能量或原型的体验确实会很艰难。

And I think that's one piece that we have gained from ancient astrology that's very useful is we've brought back some of that ability to talk about concrete external events and be a little bit more realistic about when sometimes the experience of those energies or those archetypes is going to be tough.

我认为这很有帮助且重要，因为对客户而言，能够与一个承认真实困境、困难或创伤的人交谈，然后从那里出发，远比忽视它，或出于 misguided 的善意试图掩盖它来得更有价值。

And I think that's helpful and important because I think it's more validating for a client to be able to talk to somebody that's acknowledging real areas of hardship or difficulty or trauma and then be able to go from there instead of just ignoring it or kind of trying to sweep it under the rug in some sort of misguided attempt to not harm the client by saying things that might be unsettling to them.

显然，这里需要一种平衡，因为你可能会走向另一个极端，比如说出一些负面的、对客户无益、甚至可能造成心理伤害的话。

So obviously there's a balance there because you can go too far in the opposite direction of like, you know, saying things that are negative or making predictions that aren't going to be helpful to the client or could be psychologically harmful.

我认为占星师应当始终把‘首要原则是不造成伤害’作为最高准则，就像医学传统中的希波克拉底誓言一样。

And I do think astrologers should always have the primary operating number one rule of do no harm in the same way that they have in the medical tradition.

但那里需要某种平衡，因为当事情失去平衡时，可能会出现意想不到的结果。

But there needs to be some sort of balance there because sometimes when things get unbalanced, there can be unexpected outcomes.

是的。

Yeah.

这是个很好的观点。

That's a great point.

我想起来了，我记得威廉·利利在他的关于占星术的著作《基督教占星术》开头提到过。

And I think, you know, I remember I think it was William Lilly in the beginning of his text on horary astrology, which is called Christian astrology.

这本书的书名很有趣，因为它实际上与基督教本身毫无关系。

And that text is not it's it's an interesting the title is interesting because it really has nothing to do with Christianity per se.

但它确实是一本关于占星术的优秀著作。

But, it's it's just a like a great text on horary astrology that he wrote.

无论如何，在这本书的开头，

At the beginning of that text anyway,

他说得对。

he's Right.

这本《基督教占星术》的文本主要借鉴了大约90%早期阿拉伯穆斯林作者的内容。

It's Christian astrology text that's composed of like 90% of like earlier Arabic Muslim authors that he was drawing on.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

说得对。

Point.

而且我觉得，如果你专门就这部文本做过一些讲座——我在你的播客里听过，真的非常喜欢。

And I and I think if you did a whole, you did you've done some talks on that text in particular on your podcast that I really loved.

对。

Right.

但我认为，这与他那个时代宗教信仰的氛围有关，他也因此这样命名。

But I'm I'm thinking that it it had to do with the climate of religious belief at his time that he named it that too.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

很可能是因为在文艺复兴和早期现代时期，教会不断加强对占星术的攻击，试图禁止或消除它，尤其是他所实践的那一分支——时辰占星术。这一分支很难从自然主义的角度辩护为科学，因为它看起来更像塔罗牌之类的占卜形式。

Probably because there was increasing attacks during the Renaissance, early modern period from the church that were not good in terms of trying to ban astrology or get rid of it, especially the branch that he really practiced which was horary, which is the branch that it was a lot harder to defend on naturalistic terms as a science because it's just like more obviously like tarot or something like that that just looks like a form of divination.

是的。

Yeah.

因此，在这部著作的开头，他说：‘逐步化解他们艰难的命运。’

So in the beginning of that text, he says, you know, deliver their hard fate by degrees.

我相信这就是他所说的话之一。

I believe that's one of the things that he said.

比如，如果你来的话，或者类似的内容在菲尔米库斯给占星学生的注释中也有提及。

Like, if you should come or it might there's something similar that said in, Firmicus in his note to the students of astrology.

他说了一些类似‘轻轻化解打击’的话，你知道，我觉得这很重要，因为当我们坐下来观察时，比如我们一直用土星和金星的例子，你可能会想，根据这种情况，听起来像是离婚即将发生，基于客户告诉我的那些信息等等。

He says something about, like, kinda like deliver the blows gently, you know, sort of sort of like and I, I think that's important because, you know, we might sit down and look and see, oh, there's like, we've been using the Saturn Venus example, and you might think, well, based on this situation, it sounds like divorce is coming, you know, based on what the client is telling me and so forth.

但你仍然应该把这种情况看作：你并不确切知道会发生什么。

But you should still, you should treat that situation like, well, you don't know exactly what's going to happen.

你可以将它列为多种可能性之一。

You could outline that as a possibility among others.

但我想回到我之前想强调的哲学观点是：即使在这种情况下，也不意味着你隐含地在哲学层面上断言完全没有命运或宿命，仿佛一切都悬而未决。

But I think the philosophical point I wanna come back to is that even in a situation like that, that doesn't necessarily mean that there what you're saying implicitly on a philosophical level is that there is no fate or destiny whatsoever, that that it's that it's all up in the air somehow.

我认为这种观点通常会给人们带来过大的压力。

I think that more often than not puts too much pressure on people.

因为通常在这种可能性的真空里，会冒出一种想法：嗯，这取决于你有多清醒，你能得到什么，完全取决于你的觉悟程度之类的东西。

Because usually what comes in to that, that that sort of possibility void is the sense that, well, it depends on how conscious you are, what you'll get, you know, is like sort of rides on you and and how enlightened you are or something like that.

而且，再次回到我们今天一开始讨论的地方，我认为你和我都会认同某种部分决定论的观点，也就是说，我们的选择与命运的展开之间存在某种关联。

And, which, you know, there there and, again, going back to where we started today, there's there's some I think probably you and I would both land in the camp of there being sort of a partial determinism and, like, there there there's some relation between our choices and the unfolding of fate.

但同样，仅仅因为我们无法确切说出未来会发生什么，或者我们所处的是一个原型可能性的领域，并不等于说未来只是纯粹的可能、开放和完全的潜在性。

But, again, just because we may not be able to say exactly what is going to happen or we have an archetypal realm of possibilities to work in is not the same thing as saying that the future is only possible and open and completely just, potentiality.

所以，我的立场是，在这一点上我无法走得那么远。

So that's where I stand anywhere where I would say, I would I can't go that far.

我必须说，不行。

I have to say, no.

你知道，就像赫尔墨斯一样，我对这种可能性、潜力、选择与命运真实存在之间的关系很感兴趣。

There's I I you know, like like Hermes, I'm I'm interested in some kind of relationship between that sense of possibility, potential, choice, and the very real sense that fate exists.

否则，我不明白占星术最初为什么会诞生。

Again, otherwise, I'm not sure why we're how astrology would have come about in the first place.

我认为我们必须认真对待古代哲学家和作者们所说的：这是一门研究命运的学问。

And I think we have to take seriously what the ancient, philosophers and authors were saying, which is that this is a study of fate.

这并不意味着没有选择或可能性的空间，但走向另一个极端——对我来说，那是一种极端的偏颇。

That doesn't mean that there's no room for for choice or possibility, but to go to the opposite extreme, it it to me, it's like an opposite extreme.

如果说一切完全被命运决定，那么相反的极端就是认为一切完全开放，纯粹是潜在可能。

If you go everything is completely fated, the opposite would be to say that somehow everything is completely open and nothing but potential.

而且，我认为赫尔墨斯大概希望将这两者 somehow 统一起来。

And the again, I think that Hermes probably wants to weave those things together somehow.

是的

Yeah.

当然

For sure.

我的意思是，你一开始说的非常重要，占星师都知道任何星盘解读都要打点折扣，因为他们明白占星是象征性地预测未来，因此在从积极到消极的连续谱上，任何星象都可能存在不同的结果，而你无法提前100%确定。

I mean, I think what you said at the very beginning was really important that astrologers know to take any delineation with a grain of salt because they understand that astrology is archetypally predictive and therefore there can be different possible outcomes on that spectrum of positive to negative for any position and you don't know 100% ahead of time.

但客户并不知道这一点。

But a client doesn't know that.

因此，有时客户会非常认真地对待占星师所说的话，这就要求我们谨慎措辞，占星师必须小心、负责地考虑客户如何接收你的话，因为不同的人由于心理状态和接受能力不同，对某些信息的承受力也不同，有些信息可能对他们的心理健康造成负面影响。

And so sometimes a client will take what the astrologer says much more seriously and that's where we have to be cautious with the way that we word things and that the astrologer is careful and conscientious of how the client is gonna receive what you say and that there may be different people depending on their mental state and ability to take in different things that may be more or less capable of hearing certain things from an astrologer without it becoming detrimental to their mental health.

所以这是需要特别关注和意识到的非常重要的事情。

So that's like a super important thing to pay attention to and be aware of.

关于你最后提到的那一点，因为我知道我们快讲完了，我想表达一个观点：命运其实是一件好事。

And then with respect to your last thing, because I know we're getting towards the end of this here, I want to take the position that fate is actually a good thing.

我实际上非常支持命运观，因为我认为我们不仅要考虑某些事情被预先决定或注定所带来的挑战，比如生活中的苦难，也要考虑到其中一些积极的方面。

And I'm actually very pro fate because I think we need to take into account not just the challenging things that come with certain things being predetermined or fated in terms of hardships that we experience in our lives, but also some of the positive things as well.

生活中积极与消极事件相互交织，我们不得不经历一些负面的困难，才能迎来后来的积极结果；或者某些积极的事情最终带来了负面后果，但最终它们都融入了我们整个人生故事之中。

And that there's this beautiful sort of interweaving of the positive and negative events in our life of like the negative hardships that we had to experience in order to have this positive thing later on, or this positive thing that occurred that eventually had some negative outcome but it eventually became tied in with our overall life story.

有时当人们回首往事，尤其是在人生走到某个阶段、一切趋于平衡时，他们会意识到，即使有些艰难的经历令人痛苦，他们也不愿改变或放弃这些经历——因为如果剔除了那些艰难，后来所取得的一些积极成就可能根本不会发生。

And sometimes when people look back and think of some of those things, you know, they realize once they get to a certain point in their life when things have evened out a little bit that they wouldn't go back and change it necessarily or they wouldn't trade it because if they got rid of some of the hard things, then some of the positive things that they were able to achieve later wouldn't have happened.

因此，这构成了你必须综合考量的整个生命计算：所有事件的总和塑造了你的人生故事、你是谁、你成就了什么，以及你走过了多远的路。

And so it's part of this entire calculus that you have to add up of all of the totality of events in your life that created your life story and who you are and what you've accomplished and how far you've come.

而这一切都与‘命运’这一概念紧密相连，即事件按照某种有意义或有目的的序列展开。

And all of that is tied in with this notion of fate as being the sequence of events according to some meaningful or purposeful sequence essentially.

因为与之相对的，是现代物质主义和怀疑论的观点：一切只是混沌，我们生活在一个无意义、无目的的宇宙中，地球不过是一颗漂浮在太空中的岩石，上面偶然长出了一点像霉菌一样的生命。

Because the opposite of that that we have to contrast is the modern materialistic sort of skeptical notion of everything just being chaos and that we're in a meaningless and purposeless universe where like, you know, the earth is just like this rock that's floating around in space with like a speck of like mold on it of life that just sprouted out of nowhere.

除此之外，我们的生命没有任何目的，我们只能在这颗无目的地漂浮在太空中的岩石上，尽力过好有限的时光。

But otherwise, there's no purpose for any of our lives and we just have to like make the best out of it out of whatever time we have floating around on this rock aimlessly in space.

我认为，占星术与命运概念的联系，以及它能够触及命运这一存在层面并证明命运确实存在，其最重要的宗教、精神或哲学意义在于：它暗示我们的生命并非随机或无意义的，而是每个人都有一个贯穿一生、包含所有事件的叙事线索。

I think that astrology and its connection with the concept of fate and its ability to access this realm of existence of fate where it can demonstrate that fate exists, one of the most important religious or spiritual or philosophical things about that implications is that it implies that our lives are not random or meaningless, but that each of us has some sort of life story or narrative that runs throughout our lives and all of the events within it.

而且，它还将我们与周围许多人的生活联系在一起——无论是家庭、城市、世代，还是贯穿人类历史的过去与未来。

And that it also interconnects us with the lives of many other people around us in our family unit, in our city unit, in our generational unit, and even down through human history through the past and all the way through the future.

对我来说，这一点非常美丽，我认为这是一种积极的、总体上的正面事物，即使其中隐含了一些负面因素，但最终它是一种美丽、有趣且鼓舞人心的东西，而不是消极或压迫性的。

And to me, there's something that's incredibly beautiful about that where I see that as a positive thing, a net positive thing, even if it has some negative things implicit, but ultimately that it's something beautiful and interesting and inspiring rather than something that's like negative or or oppressive.

是的。

Yeah.

说得真好。

That was so nicely said.

我觉得这是对我们今天谈话非常美好的总结。

Such a nice way to to wrap up our talk today, I think.

对。

Yeah.

我没什么要补充的。

I don't have anything to add.

我简直无法说得比这更好了。

I I just I couldn't have said it better myself.

说得太精彩了。

That was so wonderfully put.

我希望今天这场对话对所有听众来说都富有启发性。

I I hope that today's conversation for everyone listening has been enlightening.

我们其实有远多于能聊完的问题，但我尽力捕捉了许多性质相似的问题的核心，并将它们融入今天的对话中。

We had, you know, far more questions than we could possibly get to, but I tried to capture, you know, the essence of a lot of questions that were very similar in nature and and bring them to this conversation today.

克里斯，能有你在这里真是太好了。

It's a real treat to have had you here, Chris.

我想补充一个有趣的小插曲：在我接触的所有客户中，那些最希望获得具体明确信息的人，往往是占星学的学生。

One thing that I'll add as a kind of funny little anecdote is that, you know, of all of the clients that I work with, the people that I find have the like, the that want the most concrete specific information are often the students of astrology.

因为我认为，作为占星学的学生，人们总是在探索那些原型性的可能性，并且能从不同角度反复审视。

Because I think that as students of astrology, people are working with those archetypal possibilities, and they can flip the jewel so many times.

他们总会问：你能帮我理清一下这个金星与土星的相位吗？

And they're like, could you just help me make sense of, like, this Venus Saturn trans?

在这么多可能性中，到底该选哪一个呢？

Like, well, what the heck of all the possibilities?

那么，我到底该重点关注哪一个呢？

Like, well, which one should I be really looking for here?

而是的。

Whereas Yeah.

我发现，那些不懂占星、完全不感兴趣的人，反而通常对这种原型式的具体解释更满意。

I find that, you know, stupid people who come in who don't know astrology who aren't into it at all, they're so much more satisfied I've found in general with, like, archetypal specificity.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这真是一个有趣的反讽。

So that's just a funny irony.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，所有占星师都想知道我们能把占星推到多远。

Well, I mean, all astrologers, we wanna see how far we can take it.

简直就像占星是一辆车，你想坐进去，看看能开多快。

Almost like astrology is like this car and you wanna just like You wanna get in, you wanna see how fast you can drive it.

想看看你能在预测未来事件上精确到什么程度，而且这些预测最终还真的应验了。

Wanna see how specific can you get with making predictions about future events that turn out to be true.

我认为，一旦占星师们了解了占星术的潜力，这种倾向就是自然而然的。

And I think that's a natural tendency for all astrologers once they learn the potential of astrology.

这没什么关系，因为我们所有人都在不断探索，试图弄清楚这一点。

And that's okay because all of us are constantly exploring and trying to figure that out.

我认为，随着占星术的持续发展，我们会不断发现占星术能够带来令人惊讶的新应用领域。

And I think, you know, as astrology continues to progress, we'll continue to find both different areas where astrology can do things that are surprising.

而古代占星术复兴的一大亮点，就是重新发现了诸如时间主宰系统等一些技法，这些技法能够实现二十世纪占星术——那种较少注重预测的占星术——被认为不可能做到的事情。

And that's been one of the great things about the revival of ancient astrology is finding some of the Time Lord systems and finding different techniques in astrology that can do things that we didn't think were possible in twentieth century astrology that was less predictive in its orientation.

但与此同时，承认并认识到占星术的一些局限性，也是这一对话中非常重要的部分。

But then also at the same time, acknowledging and recognizing some of its limits is very important as part of that conversation as well.

我希望我们能找到这两者之间的恰当平衡，为这两种观点都留出空间，而不至于走向任何一个极端。

And I hope that we can find a right balance between those two things and making room for those two things without, you know, going too far in one direction or or another.

是的。

Yeah.

说得真好。

That's really nicely said.

再次感谢你今天前来分享。

Well, again, thank you so much for coming and speaking, today.

这真的非常有趣，我希望所有收听的人都能从中获得一些值得思考的内容。

This was really, fun, and I hope that everyone who listened to this will have had some good things to think about.

毫无疑问，之后还会出现更多问题，我肯定。

No doubt there'll be more questions, I'm sure, that come up.

也许我们将来需要再聚一次，做第二部分，或者再次讨论这些话题。

Maybe we'll have to get together again and do a part two or talk again about these subjects at some point in the future.

所以，克里斯，非常感谢你今天做我的嘉宾。

So thank you, Chris, so much for for being my guest today.

见到你、和你交谈真的非常愉快。

Really, really good to see you and talk to you.

是的。

Yeah.

非常感谢你邀请我。

Thanks a lot for having me.

而且这真的很有趣，能见到你真是太好了，就像我们一开始说的，我们各自在不同领域所做的工作，以及我们在希腊化占星术和古代占星术整体上的研究，彼此之间如何相互补充，还有通过我们教授的不同课程和其他方式提升公众对古代占星术研究的认识。

And and this was fun and it's been great to see, you know, both of like we said at the beginning, the work that we've been doing in our different spheres and the way that it sort of complements each other in terms of both of our work on Hellenistic astrology and ancient astrology in general and just raising the public awareness of some of that great work on ancient astrology that's been happening in the different courses that we teach and everything else.

是的。

Yeah.

如果没有你开创性的努力，以及你持续所做的出色工作，我今天不可能站在这里。

Well, I certainly wouldn't be here without all of the work that you did to blaze the trail and, and all the good work you continue to do.

我想确认一下，除了占星术播客之外，还有没有其他地方可以推荐给大家，因为人们可以在那里收听你所有的精彩内容，也许还能成为赞助人之类的。

I want to make sure that there's, is there anything that I can point people to other than the astrology podcast, which is where people can listen to all of your great work and, maybe become a patron and and things like that.

你还有什么其他想告诉人们的吗？

But anything else that you would like to, tell people about?

当然。

Sure.

对。

Yeah.

就我的播客吧。

Just my podcast.

我在astrologypodcast.com和相应的YouTube频道上每月发布四集内容。

I put out four episodes a month at the astrologypodcast.com as well as the YouTube channel for that.

还有我的书《希腊化占星术：命运与 Fortune 的研究》，我试图撰写现代第一部关于古代占星术的全面概述。

And then my book, Hellenistic astrology, the study of fate and fortune where I tried to write the first comprehensive overview of ancient astrology in modern times.

此外，我在theastrologyschool.com上教授一门关于希腊化占星术的在线课程，课程包含超过一百小时的视频讲座，涵盖古代占星术的各个方面，尤其深入探讨了解读出生星盘和进行预测的实践与技巧。

And then I teach an online course at theastrologyschool.com on Hellenistic astrology that just has over a hundred hours of video lectures on different aspects of ancient astrology and especially gets into the practice and the techniques of looking at birth charts and making predictions.

太棒了。

Awesome.

是的。

Yeah.

如果人们想找到你的书，是直接去你的网站更好，还是去亚马逊？

If people want to, find your book, is it better to go on your website or Amazon?

你建议怎么做？

What do you what do you suggest?

是的。

Yeah.

我只是开玩笑说，这本书在各地的精品书店都能买到，但其实你只能在亚马逊或任何在线占星书籍零售商那里买到。

I just, I always joke that it's available in fine bookstores everywhere, but it's really something you just get on Amazon or any online astrology book retailer.

是的。

Yeah.

我再怎么推荐都不为过。

I couldn't recommend it more highly.

它是我自己课程中使用的教材之一。

It's one of the textbooks that I use in my own course.

而且，我觉得，如果你打算学习希腊化占星术并想找一个起点，克里斯的课程和这本书都是绝佳的学习资源。

And, you know, I think that, like, if you're gonna study Hellenistic astrology and you're looking for a starting point, Chris's class, his book, fantastic, places to study.

当然，你也可以访问我的网站 nightlightastrology.com 查看我的课程。

Of course, you can also check out my classes at nightlightastrology.com.

真的很高兴再次有你在这里，克里斯，期待未来能有更多合作。

Really, so glad, again, to have you here, Chris, and let's look forward to, doing some more collaborative work down the road.

当然。

For sure.

非常感谢。

Thank you so much.

特别感谢所有通过我们在patreon.com的页面支持本播客这一集制作的赞助者。

Special thanks to all the patrons that helped to support the production of this episode of the podcast through our page on patreon.com.

特别是要感谢我们制作人层级的赞助者，包括托马斯·米勒、凯瑟琳·康罗伊、克里斯蒂·莫、阿里安娜·阿穆尔、曼迪·雷、安吉丽克·南博、伊萨·萨巴赫、杰克·奥特罗、米米·星象师和让·玛丽·卡普兰。

In particular, shout out to the patrons on our producers tier including Thomas Miller, Catherine Conroy, Christy Moe, Ariana Amour, Mandy Ray, Angelique Nambo, Issa Sabah, Jake Otero, Mimi Stargazer, and Jean Marie Kaplan.

如果你欣赏我在播客中所做的工作，并希望找到一种方式来支持它，请考虑通过我们在patreon.com的页面成为赞助者。

If you appreciate the work I'm doing here on the podcast and you'd like to find a way to support it, then please consider becoming a patron through our page on patreon.com.

作为回报，你可以获得仅对播客赞助者开放的额外内容，例如提前获取新集数、参加每月运势节目的现场录制、我们的每月吉时选择播客，或另一个独家播客系列《休闲占星播客》，甚至还可以让你的名字出现在每集结尾的鸣谢名单中。

In exchange, you can get access to bonus content that's only available to patrons of the podcast such as early access to new episodes, the ability to attend the live recording of the monthly forecast episodes, our monthly auspicious elections podcast, or another exclusive podcast series called the Casual Astrology Podcast, or you can even get your name listed in the credits at the end of each episode.

如需更多信息，请访问patreon.com/astrologypodcast。

For more information, visit patreon.com/astrologypodcast.

如果你希望进行占星咨询，我们提供了推荐占星师的列表，网址是theastrologypodcast.com/consultations。

If you're looking to get an astrological consultation, we have a list of recommended astrologers at theastrologypodcast.com/consultations.

列表中的占星师都是曾多次在本播客不同集数中亮相的节目好友，他们各有专长，例如本命占星、择时占星、合盘分析、校时和问卜占星。

The astrologers on the list are friends of the podcast that have been featured in different episodes over the years and they have different specialties such as natal astrology, electional astrology, synastry, rectification, or horary astrology.

通过使用促销码 ASTROLOGYPODCAST，预订我们列表中的占星师咨询可享受10%折扣。

You can get a 10% discount when you book a consultation with one of the astrologers on our list by using the promo code ASTROLOGYPODCAST.

我们在此播客中使用并推荐的占星软件是适用于Windows的Solar Fire，可在alabe.com购买。

The astrology software that we use and recommend here on the podcast is called Solar Fire for Windows which is available for the PC at alabe.com.

使用促销码 AP15 可享受15%折扣。

Use the promo code AP15 to get a 15% discount.

对于Mac用户，我们推荐一款名为Astro Gold for Mac OS的软件，它由Solar Fire for PC的原团队开发，包含现代与传统占星技法。

For Mac users, we recommend a software program called Astro Gold for Mac OS which is from the creators of Solar Fire for PC, and it includes both modern and traditional techniques.

更多信息请访问 astrogold.io，并使用促销码 ASTROPODCAST15 享受15%折扣。

You can find out more information at astrogold.io, and you can use the promo code ASTROPODCAST15 to get a 15% discount.

如果你想更深入了解我的占星方法，我推荐阅读我的著作《命运与财富的研究》，书中系统介绍了古代占星的历史、哲学与技法，从初学者逐步引导至中级和高级的命盘解读技巧。

If you'd like to learn more about my approach to astrology, then I'd recommend checking out my book titled The Study of Fate and Fortune where I go over the history, philosophy, and techniques of ancient astrology taking people from beginner up through intermediate and advanced techniques for reading birth charts.

你可以通过亚马逊或其他在线零售商购买纸质版，或通过Google Books获取电子版。

You can get a print copy of the book through Amazon or other online retailers or there's an e book version available through Google Books.

我最近还出版了一部公元二世纪占星师瓦登斯文集的新译本，这是理解古代占星实践最重要的文献之一。

I also recently published a new translation of the anthology of the second century astrologer Vadius Valens which is one of the most important sources for understanding the practice of ancient astrology.

你可以在亚马逊或其他在线书店搜索《文集》找到这本书。

You can find that by searching for The Anthology on Amazon or other online book retailers.

如果你真的想深入学习占星术，我推荐你参加我的希腊占星课程，这是一门关于古代占星术的在线课程，我会从基础概念讲起，逐步引导你掌握中级和高级的星盘解读技巧。

If you're really looking to expand your studies of astrology, then I would recommend my Hellenistic astrology course which is an online course on ancient astrology where I take people through basic concepts up through intermediate and advanced techniques for reading birth charts.

课程包含超过一百小时的视频讲座，以及对古代文本的指导性阅读。

There's over a hundred hours of video lectures as well as guided readings of ancient texts.

当你完成这门课程后，你将具备扎实的星盘解读和预测能力。

And by the time you finish the course, you will have a strong foundation in how to read birth charts as well as make predictions.

更多详情请访问 courses.theastrologyschool.com。

You can find out more information at courses.theastrologyschool.com.

我最近还在那里推出了一门新课程——出生时间校正课程，教学生如何在出生时间未知或不确定的情况下，通过占星术推算出准确的出生时间。

I also recently launched a new course there called the birth time rectification course where I teach students how to figure out your birth time using astrology when the birth time is either unknown or uncertain.

更多关于这门课程的信息，请访问 theastrologyschool.com。

You can find out more information about that at theastrologyschool.com.

每年，这个播客都会发布一套来年的占星日历海报。

Each year, the podcast releases a set of astrology calendar posters for the coming year.

我们刚刚发布了2023年的行星对齐与行星运行海报，现在可以在我们的网站thastrologypodcast.com/store上获取。

And we've just released our 2023 planetary alignments and planetary movements posters which are now available on our website at theastrologypodcast.com/store.

在那里，您还可以购买我们的2023年择日 astrology 报告，丽莎·谢姆和我已对接下来的十二个月进行了分析，并运用择日 astrology 的原则，为每个月挑选出最吉祥的一天。

There you can also pick up our 2023 Electional Astrology report where Lisa Scheim and I went through the next twelve months and we picked out the single most auspicious date for each month using the principles of electional astrology.

您可以在thastrologypodcast.com/2022report获取这份报告。

You can get that at theastrologypodcast.com/2022report.

最后，感谢我们的赞助商，包括《山地占星师》杂志——这是一本季刊占星杂志，您可以在mountainastrologer.com上阅读印刷版或在线版。

And finally, thanks to our sponsors including The Mountain Astrologer Magazine which is a quarterly astrology magazine which you can read in print or online at mountainastrologer.com.

另外，感谢西北占星大会，该大会将于2023年5月25日至29日在西雅图郊外举行。

Finally, thanks also to the Northwest Astrology Conference which is happening May 25 through the twenty ninth twenty twenty three just outside of Seattle.

今年的大会将采用混合模式，您可以选择在线参与或现场出席。

This year's conference is going to be a hybrid conference where you can either attend online or in person.

更多信息请访问norwac.net。

Find out more information at norwac dot net.