费尔米库斯·马尔提努斯的《数学》与本杰明·戴克斯

他对此非常明确。

He's very clear about this.

令人遗憾的是，他将所有这些材料都从最古老的希腊化时期文献翻译了过来。

And what's sad is that he's translated all of this material from the oldest Hellenistic sources.

而这些文献几乎都已完全失传。

And they're almost all sources that have now just gone.

是的。

Right.

或者只存在于其他版本中。

Or only exist in other versions.

因此，在某种意义上，我们可以说他拯救了许多早期作者的作品。

So, in a certain way, we could say he rescued a lot of early authors.

令人遗憾的是，他在整本书中并不总是告诉我们引用了谁。

And the sad thing is that he doesn't tell us always throughout the book who he's quoting.

我们可以做出一些合理的推测。

We can make some good guesses.

对。

Right.

所以这本书的大部分内容都很长，因为它主要抄录了来自不同早期希腊来源的行星位置和命盘解释材料。

So most of the book, it's so large, because most of it is copying delineation material of interpretations of planetary placements and birth charts from different earlier Greek sources that he's copying from.

为了联系拉丁文部分，这引出了关于菲米库斯的一个谜团，即它并不是我们所知现存最早的拉丁文著作，因为更早的一部作品是马尼利乌斯的作品，大约写于公元14年左右。

To bring the Latin piece around, it brings up one of the mysteries in Firmicus, which is that it wasn't the first Latin work that we know of that survives because there was an earlier one which was Manilius, which was written somewhere around fourteen CE or AD.

而且这里有一个大问题：菲米库斯是否知道马尼利乌斯的存在？

And there's this big question about did Firmicus know about Manilius?

他是否借鉴了马尼利乌斯？

Did he draw on Manilius?

如果他借鉴了，为什么没有提到他？

If he did, why didn't he mention him?

这一点你在书中、在你的翻译中，特别是在与马尼利乌斯相关的章节里，已经探讨过，对吧？

And that's something you addressed and you kind of tried to investigate in your book, in your translation, in the sections that are connected with Manilius, right?

是的，我认为菲米库斯并没有见过马尼利乌斯的抄本。

Yeah, I think that Firmicus did not have a copy of Manilius.

他拥有的是曼尼利乌斯所使用的希腊语原版的抄本。

What he had was a copy of the Greek original that Manilius had been working with.

因此，人们拥有曼尼利乌斯的抄本，尤其在讨论固定恒星时会使用它。

So, people had copies of Manilius, and used it especially when they were talking about fixed stars.

弗尔米库斯也在使用这些材料，但我认为他依据的是更早的希腊语版本。

And Firmicus is also using that material, but I think he's working from the earlier Greek edition.

对。

Right.

在第八卷中，他包含了许多关于固定恒星的内容，其中许多段落与曼尼利乌斯在讨论相同概念时的说法非常相似。

So in book eight, he has a bunch of material on fixed stars and a bunch of those sections show very close parallels with what Manilius says when he's dealing with the same concepts.

但问题是，他是否手头有曼尼利乌斯的著作，还是只是借鉴了曼尼利乌斯所使用的希腊语源头？我认为他用的是和曼尼利乌斯相同的希腊语源头。

But so the question is whether he had Menelius in front of him or whether he was drawing on the Greek source and you think that he was drawing on the same Greek source that Menelius had?

是的。

Yeah.

因此，他可能以为自己是首次进行这样的工作，因为他从未听说过曼尼利乌斯。

And so it could be that he thought he was doing this for the first time because he had never heard of Manilius.

我的意思是，这有可能。

I mean, that's, that's possible.

或者他认为这部作品太边缘了，本来就已有希腊语原版，不值得提及。

Or he just thought it was such a marginal, a marginal work that already had a Greek original that it wasn't worth mentioning.

但他非常清楚，无论如何，在拉丁文学中，等等，让我稍等一下。

But he's very but at any rate, he's very aware that in Latin literature, well, actually, let me go back for a second.

他还知道西塞罗和尤利乌斯·凯撒都写过一些关于星辰的小文章。

He also knows that Cicero and Julius Caesar had written little pieces on the stars.

所以他知道有些人写过一些小作品，但没有人写过一部庞大的占星学手册。

So he knows that some people have written little things, but none of them has written a huge manual of astrology.

我今天刚读到他提到西塞罗以及凯撒那部已失传的作品的那一段。

I was just reading that section today where he mentioned Cicero and this lost work that Caesar supposedly wrote.

有趣的是，他几乎是在说，但那些都是天文学著作。

And what was interesting is he almost says basically, but those are astronomical works.

它们并不涉及星辰的占卜。

They're not about the judgment of the stars.

有趣的是，他几乎在区分天文学和占星术，我认为这非常重要，因为人们普遍认为古代根本没有天文学和占星术的区别。

And it was interesting that he's almost drawing a distinction between astronomy and astrology there, which I thought was really important because it's commonly assumed that there was just absolutely no distinction between astronomy and astrology in ancient times.

但我经常觉得，这只是一个语言问题，因为当时对‘天文学’和‘占星术’这两个术语并没有标准化。

But I often think that that's just a linguistic issue because there wasn't a standardization about the terms astronomy and astrology.

所以作者们会混用它们，但这并不意味着古代人对这两个概念本身就没有区分。

So authors would mix them up, but that didn't mean that there wasn't any distinction between those two concepts in ancient times.

是的，对于弗尔米库斯来说，这种区分尤其重要。

Yeah, and I would say, if anything for Firmicus, that distinction is really important.

因为如果你留意他是如何谈论占星术的，他总是使用‘谕令’这个词，对吧。

Because if you watch how he talks about astrology, he's always using the word decree, Right.

占星术关乎神明和星辰所颁布的谕令。

Astrology is about what the gods and the stars are decreeing.

这是一种神圣的学问。

This is a divine science.

所以，测量和观察比如星体出没时间之类的东西，用于农业，那是另一回事。

So measurements and watching, you know, rising times and that sort of thing for agriculture, that's one thing.

但理解这些古老法令是一种更加辉煌、强大且具有道德升华意义的实践。

But understanding what this old decrees is a much more splendid and powerful and morally elevating practice.

对。

Right.

所以‘法令’这个词与他经常使用的‘命运’一词密切相关。

So decree and that's connected with his other frequent use of the word of fate.

他不断提及命运，说占星术就是研究命运的学问。

He's constantly invoking fate and saying that astrology is the study of fate.

在某处，他还把命运与运气联系起来，似乎在某个时刻将命运和运气当作同义词使用。

And at one point he also connects fate to fortune and he seems to use fate and fortune interchangeably at one point.

他还谈论‘判断’，并使用了‘判断’这个术语，我觉得这非常有趣，因为我们在中世纪时期经常见到这个词，最终演变为‘判断’与其他类别之间的区分。

And he also talks about judgments and uses this term judgment which I thought was really interesting because we see that very commonly in the Medieval period and eventually leading to that distinction between judgments versus the other categories.

但其中一些观点，我们在菲米库斯这里首次见到。

But some of this we're seeing in Firmicus for the first time.

是的。

Yeah.

而‘命运’这个词也很重要，因为在拉丁语中，‘命运’这个词与神圣的谕令有关。

And that word fate is important too, because in Latin, that word fate, the Latin word has to do with a divine decree.

因此，他会使用表示‘谕令’的词，然后使用‘命运’这个词，而他和当时所有人都知道，‘命运’这个词也与神圣的意图和神圣的谕令相关。

So he'll use the word that means decree, and then he'll use the word fate, which he and everyone then, you know, would have known that that word fate also has to do with divine intention and divine decree.

是的，你知道，这很有趣。

Yeah, you know, it's cool.

在第六或第七卷的某个地方，我前几天读你的译本时，他用‘谕令’作为‘命盘’的同义词。

At one point in like, what was it, book six or seven, I was reading your translation the other day, he uses decree as a synonym the place of saying nativity.

有一些星盘的例子，他说‘这个谕令’，而他实际指的是星盘，但他确实用这种方式使用这个词，这真的很棒。

There's some example charts where he says, This decree, and what he's talking about is a chart, but he's actually using the term in that way, which is really cool.

是的，星盘就是谕令。

Yeah, the chart is the decree.

对。

Yeah.

所以，不仅仅是星盘中的某些因素决定了个体命运，命盘本身就是一个谕令。

So it's not just individual things that are decreed by things in the chart, individual outcomes, but the nativity itself is the decree.

是的

Yeah.

对

Right.

命运的谕令，基本上。

The decree of fate, basically.

另一个非常重要的词，我们其实需要谈到，这是一个他经常使用的独特术语，而这本书的标题《Mathesis》就与此相关。

Another word that's really important, which actually we need to get to, it's a unique term that he uses constantly, but it's important to explain in terms of the title of the book is The Mathesis.

你在封面和整本书中都保留了这个词的原文，没有翻译？

And that's something that you leave untranslated both on the cover as well as throughout the book itself?

是的，我为此纠结了很久，因为多年来我一直努力避免不翻译这些特殊的外来词。

Yeah, I struggled with that because for many years now, I've tried really hard to never leave these special foreign words untranslated.

我一直想尝试把它们转化为英文。

I've always wanted to try to put them into English somehow.

但我感觉我做不到。

And I didn't feel I could.

所以，Mathesis这个词的希腊语词根意思是学习。

So Mathesis, really the root verb for this in Greek just means learning.

它也是我们单词‘数学’的来源。

And it's the basis of our word mathematics.

因此，数学家、数学的。

So mathematician, mathematical.

Mathesis其实就是学习的意思。

Mathesis really just means learning.

但当然，学习有很多种类。

But of course, there's lots of, but there's lots of types of learning.

现在，我想效仿霍尔登的做法。

Now, I thought I would do what Holden does.

他直接把这个词翻译为占星术。

And he just translate this as astrology.

但菲米库斯也使用了‘占星术’这个词。

But Firmicus also uses the word astrology.

对。

Right.

他曾一度用这个词作为占星术的替代词，但那是一个非常有趣的观点。

At one point, he said, because he's often using as a placeholder for astrology, but then that was a really interesting point.

他曾在一个句子中提到过‘Mathesis’和占星术，这很有趣，因为那里或许存在某种区别。

At one point, he says, in a sentence you translated like the Mathesis and astrology, which is interesting that there's maybe some distinction there.

是的，在日常对话中，如果你谈论数学家，人们常常会联想到占星家，普通人可能就是这样理解的。

Yeah, so it might mean that in casual conversation, if you talked about mathematicians, you'd be talking often about astrologers, maybe common people would understand that.

但他那里可能另有深意。

But he might have something special there.

我想，他并没有经常使用这个词。

And I thought, well, he doesn't use it a lot.

所以我们就保持原样吧。

So let's just keep it like it is.

在希腊传统中，特别是在公元一至三世纪期间，‘mathematicos’一词常被用来指代占星术以及占星家，也就是所谓的数学家。

And ties in within the Greek tradition, in that time period in the first and second and third century, the term mathematicos was often used to refer to astrology and to astrologers in particular as mathematicians.

这一点有时被像塞克斯都·恩披里柯这样的怀疑论者嘲笑，他们说占星家使用诸如数学家这样的高大上名称来指代自己或他们的学科。

And this is sometimes mocked by skeptics like Sextus Empiricus who says the astrologers use these high sounding names like mathematician to refer to themselves or to their science.

我读了一些四世纪针对占星术的法律，这些法律实际上使用'mathematici'这样的术语来指代占星家，或把占星术称为'mathematica'——即占星的学问，例如在三月被禁时就是这样。

And I was reading some of the laws against astrology from the fourth century and they actually use terms like mathematici to refer to astrologers or they refer to astrology as mathematica, the teaching of astrology when it was banned in like March for example.

所以，一些罗马法典也用这个词来将占星术称为数学或其他类似的东西。

So it's like some of the Roman law codes are also using that to refer to astrology as mathematics or what have you.

是的。

Yeah.

如果你只是把Mathesis理解为占星家，尤其是考虑到他们进行计算的特性，那大概也没问题。

If you just thought of Mathesis as being astrologers, especially insofar as they calculate, it would probably be fine.

但他也使用了'占星术'这个词，而我知道他对某些词语的使用非常谨慎，所以我决定

But because he also uses the word astrology, and I know that he's careful about certain words, I thought, I'm going to

就保持原样。

leave it the way it is.

对。

Yeah.

我这周晚些时候将与德梅特拉做一期节目，亚历山大·琼斯最近发表了一篇论文，他们发现了一位目前已知最早有名字的女性占星师，她名叫海利亚多拉，生活在公元二或三世纪。

And I'm actually doing an episode with Demetra later this week where Alexander Jones published a paper recently where they discovered what they think is the earliest woman that's known by name who practiced astrology, which is a woman named Heliadora who lived in the second or the third century.

在她的墓碑上写着她是……，根据时代背景，人们认为这意味着她是一位占星师。

On her gravestone it says that she was a which they think because of the timeframe and the context means that she was an astrologer.

这一切联系起来还挺有意思的。

That was kind of interesting how that all ties in.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

这就是标题。

So that's the title.

这是一些相关内容。

That's some of the things.

还有一个术语，我不知道你是否想深入讨论，但你之前没有翻译的那个词是‘Apotelesmata’。

Another term, and I don't know if you want to go into this, but that you did leave untranslated was the word Apotelesmata.

是的

Yeah.

所以这个词是Apotelesmata，复数形式也是Apotelesmata。

And so this is a word that it's Apotelesmata, the plural is Apotelesmata.

他在使用这个词。

He's using it.

这是一个希腊词，但他只是进行了音译。

This is a Greek word, but he just transliterates it.

所以他根本没有翻译它。

So he's not even translating it.

这恰好是几本著名占星著作的标题。

And this happens to be the title of a number of famous books on astrology.

托勒密的《四书》实际上并不叫《四书》，而是叫《Apotelesmata》。

Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos, it's not actually called the Tetrabiblos, it's called Apotelesmata.

因此，有不少占星师用这个词作为他们著作的标题，或者会谈论这些被称为Apotelesmata的事物。

So, there are a number of astrologers who use this word as titles of their books, or they'll talk about these things called Apotelesmata.

显然，Apotelesmatics 是研究 Apotelesmata 的学科，但几乎只有占星师使用这个词，而且他们从不加以定义。

And obviously Apotelesmatics is the study of Apotelesmata, but almost no one uses this word but astrologers, and they never define it.

所以人们总是会问，这个词到底是什么意思？

So it's always a question what, what in the world does this mean?

我只能就菲米库斯如何使用这个词发表看法，但我认为我对这一切究竟意味着什么有一个有用的见解。

And I, I can only speak for Firmicus and how he uses the word, but I think I have an idea that is useful about what does all of this really means.

那我直接说出来好吗？

And so should I just say it?

是的，这样你可以多补充一点内容。

Yeah, just so you can fill it up a little bit here.

好吧，说来听听。

Okay, let's hear it.

好的。

Okay.

我认为 Apotelesmatics 与模式识别有关。

I'm an Apotelesmatics has to do with pattern recognition.

当我们学习占星术时，我们会分别学习一些单独的内容，比如土星在第一宫，或火星与金星成三合，这些都被孤立地学习。

So we when we learn astrology, we learn individual things like Saturn in the first, or Mars trine Venus, we learn these little things in isolation.

但还存在整体的星盘模式，如果你同时观察多个因素，它们告诉你的信息是，这个命盘关乎如此这般，或者这是一个有权势之人的命盘。

But then there are overall chart patterns, which if you look at several things at once, what they're telling you is that this nativity is about such and such, or this is the nativity, you know, of a powerful person.

因此，Apotelesmatics 的含义是什么，他在整本书中反复说：我们快到了。

And so what Apotelesmatics is, and he keeps saying throughout the book, We're almost there.

我们快要触及 Apotelesmatics 了。

We're almost to Apotelesmatics.

我认为，这是我们占星教育下一步需要迈进的阶段。

It is, I think, the next stage that we need to take in astrology education.

那就是超越原则和规则，不再只关注孤立的细节，而是转向对宏观模式的识别。

And that is going beyond principles and rules, and just picking out individual things, and working on big pattern recognition.

因此，他在第六卷和第七卷中所做的正是如此。

And so that's what he does in books six and seven.

我认为这将是一个非常好的方式。

And I think that would be a great way.

如果我们把这作为一个目标，我认为这对传统占星学将大有裨益，能够丰富那些对个人生命整体意义具有共通含义的模式体系。

If we had that as an aim, I think it would be great for traditional astrology, to add to those body, that body of common patterns that have an overall meaning for a person's life.

对。

Right.

所以，Apotelesma 有时意味着终结、结果、效应或影响。

So Apotelesma sometimes means end or result or outcome or effect.

这有点像施密特最初指出的，托勒密使用这个词时，你有一个基础或起始点（katarchae），然后观察当时天体的排列，它会告诉你由此产生的结果或结局。

Sort of like Schmidt had originally noted how Ptolemy uses it, that you have a foundation or a katarchae, a beginning, and then you look at the alignment of something then and it will tell you the outcome or what the result is from that placement.

因此，占星师们才使用这个词。

And so that's why the astrologers are using that.

但你在引言中写道，菲米库斯对 Apotelesmata 的理解更为复杂和细致，它并非简单地将单一星体位置与单一结果一一对应，而是更关注星盘中行星整体的混合、组合及其相互之间的相位关系，从而揭示出一个完整的结局描述或其他类似含义。

But what you wrote in the introduction was that Firmicus has a more complex or detailed understanding of Apotelesmata that are not just simply a singular one to one correspondence of singular placement and then outcome, but instead it's something more about the totality of the mixture of the planets in the chart and their placements in combinations and aspects with each other that indicates a total outcome description or what have you.

是的。

Yeah.

他明确指出，这涉及所有这些要素。

And he's explicit that it involves all of these bits.

例如，你可能会看到一些复杂的组合，他在书中可能会给出类似这样的组合。

So, for example, you might see some complex combination, and he might give you a combination like this in the book.

然后其含义是，此人出生时是奴隶，但后来会获得自由并过上幸福的生活，或者类似的情况。

And then what the meaning is, is the native will be born a slave, but will later be freed and be happy, or something like that.

但你无法仅仅从这个模式中指出一两个因素。

But there's no way to point to just one or two things in the pattern.

而是整个模式的整体。

It's the pattern as a whole.

一旦你以这种方式看待它，我想，等等，这看起来非常熟悉。

And once you look at it this way, I thought, thought, wait a minute, this seems real familiar.

我回头去查阅多罗西乌斯的著作。

I went back to Dorotheus.

我在多罗西乌斯的著作中发现，情况正是如此。

And I found in Dorotheus, that's exactly what you find.

你会找到一些规则和基本原理的简短列表。

You'll find little lists of rules, and basic principles.

然后你会突然看到一些极其复杂的星盘配置描述，这种配置你几乎从没见过。

And then you'll suddenly get complicated descriptions of a chart configuration of the sort that you wouldn't rarely see.

然而，这种模式本应传达某种信息。

And yet, this pattern is supposed to be telling you something.

所以，这可能是我们眼前明显存在的东西，它可以作为一种目标，促使我们超越简单的星体位置结果，进行更深入的星盘综合分析。

So, this could be something that's, you know, staring us in the face and could act as a kind of goal for us to go beyond simple placement result, placement result, but do more chart synthesis.

是的，综合分析。

Yeah, synthesis.

我认为关键词就是‘综合’，它指向了最终目标——理解星盘各部分如何协同作用，以及在某些例子中，它涉及五个不同的星体位置，最终共同揭示了一个人生活中结局的本质，或者说是对其一生的总体概括——如果你试图用一句话，甚至是一句简短的断言来总结一个人的一生的话？

I think that's the keyword is it gets to the ultimate goal of synthesis and understanding how the chart works together and how in some of those examples it's talking about like five different placements that ultimately indicate what the outcome is in the person's life and what their fate ended up being in something approaching the totality of their life or something like that if you were to try to summarize a person's life in the major points in just a sentence or indeed in a decree or something like that?

是的。

Yeah.

假设第一宫主星落在第六宫。

Because if Let's suppose the lord of the first is in the sixth.

对于这一结果，一个直接的单句描述就是：命主将成为奴隶。

A straightforward one sentence description of that outcome could be the native will be a slave.

对。

Right.

因为在公元四世纪的罗马帝国，奴隶制非常普遍，是社会的重要组成部分。

Because in the fourth century in the Roman Empire, slavery was really common and was a major part of society.

我们有占星师与奴隶咨询的星盘，这些星盘会给出关于奴隶是否能获得自由以及其他相关事项的指示。

We have charts of both astrologers consulting with slaves and giving indications for if they would get their freedom and different things like that.

是的。

Yeah.

如果你不想说‘奴隶制’，那么在当今社会，这可能类似于某种形式的奴役或从属状态。

And if you don't want to say, and nowadays, it could be something similar to a kind of slavery or some sort of subjection.

无论如何，我想说的是，像‘第一宫主星落入第六宫’这样简单的东西，可以转化为一句描述结果的句子。

Anyway, what I'm saying is that simple thing, Lord of the First and the Sixth, you could turn into a single sentence that is an outcome.

但你也可以遇到复杂的星盘配置，他（或她）也能将其转化为一句结果性的描述。

But then you can have this complicated chart configuration that he or he also turns into a one sentence outcome.

但这两者之间一定存在差异。

But there's got to be a difference between the two of them.

肯定是因为规模更大的星盘格局所综合得出的结论有更复杂的论断，你能展开说的内容也更多。

It's got to be that the synthesis of the of the bigger pattern has a more complicated decree that you can say more about.

而且这个论断本身也能衍生出更多解释。

And there's probably more explanation that can go into that.

对，这就引出了一件我想聊的事，这件事非常关键，菲尔米库斯的学说里最核心的要点之一就是，他始终在提及“缓和因素”以及这个概念。

Yeah, so this brings up something I want to talk about that is super important is one of probably the most important pieces of Firmicus is that he constantly talks about mitigations and the concept of mitigations.

虽然我们在其他占星学者的著作里也能找到相关的蛛丝马迹——这个概念确实存在——而他沿用了一套早已成型的传统说法：如果星盘里出现某一配置，它就代表某种特定含义，除非同时出现另一组配置，后者能抵消前者的影响、推翻原有的解读，或是从好坏层面对原有含义做出调整。

And while we have traces of this in other authors, it clearly exists and he's drawing on a established tradition of if this placement is in the chart, it means this unless this also happens which can counteract that or counter indicate it or it can modify it for better or worse.

菲尔米库斯始终在向你说明不同星盘位置的寓意规则，但他同时也会提到：不过，如果某个星体出现在这个位置，就会削弱原有的影响，让情况变好，或是让它变得更糟。

Firmicus is constantly telling you both the rules of what certain placements mean, but then he's also saying, However, if this placement is here, it will mitigate it and make it better or it will make it worse.

这和你刚才提到的星盘综合解析是相通的——从菲尔米库斯的论述中就能明白，星盘综合解析的一个核心要点，就是留意这些削弱影响的情况，以及星盘中不同行星如何相互抵消、制衡彼此的作用。

And that ties in with what you're saying there in terms of the chart synthesis, that a major component of chart synthesis, understand from Firmicus, is paying attention to mitigations and how different planets in the chart can offset things.

对，而且我觉得很多时候他都是通过星历教派（sect）的规则来进行这种分析的。

Yeah, and I think that in many cases he does that through sect.

他在整本书中对星历教派相关内容的阐述和处理都太精彩了。

His material and treatment of sect throughout the book is amazing.

因为仅凭他提供的数百个命盘解析，你就能看出星座分组在其中的作用。

Because just because of the literally hundreds of delineations that he gives where you can parse out what sect is doing in that.

所以你可能会发现，他会解释其中的差异。

So you might have, he'll explain the difference.

比如说，假设你有一个早晨星水星，也就是它在第六宫升起于太阳之前。

Let's say, let's say you have a dire a morning star Mercury, so he rises before the sun in the sixth.

好的。

Okay.

这会有某种命盘解析，可能并不太好。

And that has one delineation might not be that great.

但情况会有所不同。

But it's going to be different.

他说，这取决于命盘是日间还是夜间，或者说根据命盘的星座分组。

He says, if it's a diurnal or, you know, depending on the sect of the chart.

所以如果是日间命盘，它代表一种含义；如果是夜间命盘，则代表另一种含义。

So if a diurnal chart, it means one thing, if it's nocturnal, it means another.

因此，他经常利用派别来说明，某些看似很糟糕的情况实际上可以得到很好的缓解。

And so he often uses sect to show how something that looks pretty bad could actually be mitigated quite nicely.

对。

Right.

他一贯做的一件非常有趣的事情是，根据月亮的盈亏来区分昼夜派别：亮度增加的上弦月被视为昼间，而亮度减弱的下弦月则被视为夜间。

And one of the things he does consistently that was really interesting is treating in terms of sect the waxing Moon that's increasing in light as diurnal, whereas the waning Moon that's decreasing in light is treated as nocturnal.

因此，他几乎根据月亮是盈还是亏，改变了月亮与各行星组合的每一个命盘解读。

And therefore he changes almost every delineation of the Moon being in a combination with some of their planet based on whether it's waxing or waning.

而行星在十二宫中的每一个位置，都提供了昼夜两种不同的解读。

That and planets in all of the 12 places gives both night and day interpretations for all of them.

所以，当你把这些一一对应起来时，你就能真正开始看到他——或者说最古老的文献——是如何处理这个我们至今仍未能完全理解的核心概念的：派别究竟对行星和星盘配置产生了什么影响？

So that if you start lining it up, you can really start to see how he or well, really, the oldest sources, we're treating this central concept that we're still trying to fully understand, which is sect, what exactly does it do to a planet, and to a configuration?

是的，你继续说。

Yeah, that's Go ahead.

这本书最精彩的地方之一就在于此。

It's one of the great things about the book.

是的，直到我再次通读这本书，因为我第一次读菲米库斯的时候大概是2004年或2005年。

Yeah, until I read through this again, because the first time I read Firmicus was maybe 2004, 2005.

那已经是很久以前的事了。

That is a long time ago now.

我们说的是十五年、十八年前，我忘了自己当初读菲米库斯时，对像 sect 或克服这类概念吸收了多少内容。

We're talking about fifteen, eighteen years ago and I forgot how much I had internalized from reading Firmicus about some of those distinctions with things like sect or overcoming.

他反复强调的一个要点是，哪个行星处于主导位置，哪个行星处于从属位置，这也可能成为一种缓解方式。

Another thing that he emphasizes a lot is which planet's in the superior position, which planet's in the inferior position, which can also become a type of mitigation.

但另一种他经常提到的缓解方式，是我最初从保卢斯·亚历山大里亚斯那里了解到的，我想他与菲米库斯所处的时代其实也相距不远。

But another mitigation that he constantly refers to because I originally got this from and knew about this mitigation from like Paulus Alexandrinus who I guess actually is also not that far from Firmicus in terms of time periods.

这种缓解方式是：如果一颗行星位于第六宫，菲米库斯不断提醒你，如果第十宫有行星，尤其是吉星，它会缓解第六宫行星的影响，因为这两颗行星之间存在基于星座的三分相，当第十宫或第十整宫有行星时，他会给出更积极的第六宫行星诠释。

But the mitigation of if a planet is in the sixth house, Firmicus constantly reminds you that if there's a planet in the tenth house, especially a benefic, it will mitigate the sixth house planet because of a sign based trine basically between those planets and that he'll provide a much more positive delineation for planets in the sixth house if there are also planets in the tenth house at the same time or in the tenth whole sign house.

是的，事实上，他有时会同时提供两种诠释。

Yeah, in fact, and sometimes he gives you the two delineations.

一种是没有行星在那里的状况，另一种是有行星在那里的状况。

The one if there is no planet there, and the second one if there is a planet there.

所以，它甚至为如此简单的事情提供了不同的解读。

So, it's even giving you different delineations for something as simple as that.

他不只是简单地说‘但会更好’。

He doesn't just leave it as oh, but it'll be better.

如果行星在第十宫。

If the planet is in the tenth.

有时他会这么做，但他有时会深入细致地分析。

Sometimes he does, but he goes sometimes into great detail.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，这又是另一种缓解方式的例子，下一个缓解概念。

So that's another example though of a mitigation, essentially, next concept of mitigation.

‘缓解’在拉丁语中是什么词？

What's the word for mitigation in Latin?

他们确实使用动词‘mitigare’。

Well, they do use the verb mitigare.

好的。

Okay.

这除了只是‘缓解’之外，还有其他含义吗？

And does that mean anything besides just like mitigate?

让我查一下。

Let me check.

我认为马尼利乌斯并没有使用这个词，所以这很可能是占星语境中该词的最早用法。

Manilius, I don't think is using that word, so this has to be the earliest use of that in an astrological context.

而这个词后来变得普遍了。

And that's the term that became common later on.

我在想，这是否是菲米库斯首次在占星语境中使用或引入的另一个术语，此后十五个世纪以来一直成为标准用法。

I was wondering if this is another term that Firmicus is kind of using or introducing for the first time in an astrological context that then becomes so standard over the past fifteen hundred years since that time.

它的普遍含义是软化、平息、缓解或使某事更易承受。

The general meaning is to soften or calm down or alleviate or make something more tolerable.

好的。

Okay.

这说得通。

That makes sense.

缓解、描述，这带出一个观点。

Mitigation, delineations, that brings up a point.

我们知道，费尔米库斯的很多内容都是将希腊语材料翻译成拉丁语，尤其是来自早期作者的描述性内容。

We know that so much of Firmicus is him translating material from Greek into Latin from earlier authors, especially delineation material.

但费尔米库斯也在扩展这些材料，而且他非常啰嗦，我不知道用‘诗意’这个词是否准确，但他有时确实非常夸张。

But Firmicus is also expanding that material and Firmicus is very wordy and very I don't know if poetic is the right word, but he sometimes is very over the top.

或者你会怎么形容他的语言风格？

Or how would you describe his language?

是的，我认为这体现了他作为律师的背景。

Yeah, I think he's showing his lawyerly background.

而且在那个时代，人们可能会听一场持续两小时的演讲。

And from an age when people might listen to a speech that lasts two hours.

所以，阅读他作品时令人沮丧的一点是，如果你能放慢节奏，就会好很多——因为他从不直接表达任何事情。

So, one of the things that's frustrating about reading him, but if you just slow down, it'll be okay, is that he can't just say something directly.

他必须添加更多的形容词和从句。

He has to add in more adjectives and clauses.

所以，我举的例子是，他不能直接说某个星位会显示命主会死亡。

So, think the example I give is he can't just say that some placement will show that the native will die.

它会显示，你知道，那场毁灭性死亡带来的可怕厄运。

It will show, you know, the terrible mis fortune of the destruction of death.

对吧？

Right?

这正是Firmicus会说的话。

That's what Firmicus would say.

是的，他确实会这么说。

Yeah, that's what he would say.

所以他喜欢这样堆砌句子。

And so he likes loading up his his sentence that way.

所以有时候，它几乎形成了一种节奏。

So sometimes, you it almost gets into a kind of a rhythm.

是的。

Yeah.

这很重要，因为一方面，他扩展了内容并更好地加以解释，而希腊文本可能更为简洁，这一点我们可以从与瓦伦斯、阿努比奥或多罗修斯等人在类似内容上的对比中看出。

So that's important because on the one hand then he's expanding the material and explaining it better where the Greek text probably was more succinct, as we can tell from comparisons with people like Valens or Anubio or whoever when they have delineation material or Dorotheus for that matter.

但菲米库斯在扩展它。

But Firmicus is expanding it.

他似乎总是把事情推向极端。

He's also always taking things to the extreme it seems like.

有时这意味着，当他谈到星盘宫位时，他希望它能解释出该宫位最理想的状态。

Sometimes that means he wants the placement to, when he talks about it, to explain the most ideal form of that placement.

它要么极其好，要么极其坏。

It's either going to be extremely good or extremely bad.

虽然中间可能存在一些缓和因素，但总体而言，他的默认倾向似乎是完全偏向一方。

And there can be mitigations somewhere in between that come from the mitigations, but for the most part, his default is going 100% either way it seems like.

这听起来几乎像法庭剧。

It almost sounds like courtroom drama.

对。

Right.

他在发表演说，你知道的，不能只是说对方错了。

He's making a speech, you know, about the other guy can't just be wrong.

他必须把对方描绘成充满不公、 blah、blah、blah、blah，你知道的。

He has to be full of the injustice of the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know.

所以是的，我觉得这多少透露出一点律师的风格。

So yeah, it's, I think that's where a little bit of the lawyer is coming out.

而且修辞的味道也出来了。

And the rhetoric is coming out.

是的。

Yeah.

这其实非常重要，因为现代人阅读这些描述时必须小心，要明白Firmicus的表述有些夸张、过于煽情。

So this is really important because then think modern people have to be a little careful with some of the delineations and just understand going into it that Firmicus is a little bit over the top, he's a little bit bombastic.

如果你直接拿起书来读，然后对照自己的星盘，可能会发现，有些宫位的描述并没有他讲得那么糟糕。

Some of these placements may not be the worst case scenario as worse as he gives them if just you pick up the book and start reading it and thinking about your own chart.

是的

Yeah.

事实上，你可以这样理解：他的一些例子，尤其是书中后面的一些例子，他并没有说明这些人是谁，但你会感觉他们可能是来自罗马共和国时期的名人。

In fact, way you can think about it is that some of his examples, in fact, some of the examples later in the book, he doesn't say who they are, but you get the feeling that they might be famous people from, let's say, the Roman Republic.

因此，我们经常讨论的是那些人生经历极端的人。

So, we're often talking about people whose lives were extremes.

而这些相同的星盘配置放在普通人身上，可能仍然是好的，但不会达到那种程度。

And those same placements in an ordinary person's chart might still be good, but it's not going to rise to that level.

我们必须对此保持谨慎。

We have to be careful about that.

我注意到，费尔米库斯的著作中还隐藏着许多尚未被识别的著名人物的出生星盘。

I was noticing that there's a bunch of possible nativities that are still embedded in Firmicus of famous people that haven't been identified yet.

这实际上是一个非常有趣的项目，我希望有人能接手，因为正如你在文中所指出的，尤其是书的末尾，有几个例子的故事细节极其具体，听起来像是他在描述一个真实的人，而不是虚构的星盘案例。

And that's actually a really interesting project that I hope somebody picks up because basically, and you note them in your text, like there's several, especially towards the end of the book, where you note that the story of this example is so highly specific that it sounds like it's a real person that he's describing and not a hypothetical nativity.

是的，尤其是他描述的一位女性，她的职业生涯简直就像一部电影。

Yeah, there was one woman, especially, whom he describes, and her career is just like, this could be a movie.

但我根本不知道她是谁。

But I have no idea who she is.

我提出过几个想法，但后来都觉得不太对，也许别人能行。

And I came up with a couple of ideas that then didn't seem to work, and maybe someone will.

所以，是的，由于他的修辞方式，以及他的例子，一些描述显得格外极端。

So yeah, you because of his rhetoric, and maybe because of his examples, some of the delineations are extreme.

你会了解到所有可能被野狗吃掉的死法。

You will learn all of the different ways that you can be eaten by wild dogs

作为

as a

一种死法。

way of dying.

也许他真的认识很多被野狗吃掉的人。

Maybe he did know a lot of people who'd been eaten by wild dogs.

我

I

别笑，我们总是会想到这一点，有时还会开玩笑说，嗯，这真傻。

don't What's funny, we always think about and sometimes joke about that as being like, Well, that's dumb.

但偶尔还是会有新闻报道出现，时不时就有人说某个孩子或某人被狗咬死、被狗袭击之类的离奇事故。

But then occasionally those news stories still come up in the news every once in while where it's like some freak accident happened and some kid or somebody got eaten by a dog or mauled by a dog or something like that.

所以，这其实是个非常好的观点。

So, I actually that's that is actually a really good point.

是的。

Yeah.

而且他曾提到过一条规则：如果图表中出现这个符号，就意味着本命者会是杂技演员。

And at one point, he mentions, there's a rule about if you see this in the chart, it means the native will be a juggler.

他说我知道这是真的，因为我亲眼见过。

And he says, and I know this is true, because I've seen it.

我当时想，你从哪儿弄来这个参议员阶层的人的例子？

And I thought, I thought, where did you get the the senatorial class guy?

你从哪儿得来杂技演员的命盘资料？

Where did you get the nativity of a juggler?

或者更准确地说，那个杂技演员是从哪里得知自己的出生时间的？

Or more rather, where did the juggler learn his own birth time?

获得自己的星盘？

Get his own nativity?

所以，是的，这一点是

So yeah, that's

不过这是一个非常重要的观点，因为我阅读了你对菲米库斯的翻译后，对我对他的看法有了一些重新评估和更深的欣赏，因为我一直把他和瓦伦斯对比，认为菲米库斯更像一个业余爱好者。

a really important point, though, because I, reading your translation of Firmicus has led me to a little bit of a reappraisal and a greater appreciation for Firmicus because I always contrasted him with Valens and thought of Firmicus as more of an amateur.

我认为这仍然成立，因为他的主要职业我认为是律师，而占星术是他出于兴趣或业余时间从事的活动，后来他离开那个职业后，才更认真地投入其中，并且为了伊沃迪乌斯而撰写了这部著作。

I think that's still true because his primary profession I think was a lawyer and then astrology was something he did out of interest or maybe on the side and it was something he got more serious about doing after he left that career and when he had to write this text from Ivoordius.

菲米库斯的大量内容只是抄录早期文献，我曾认为这说明他不像瓦伦斯那样，瓦伦斯展示了一百个自己实际占卜的星盘，作为对文献抄录的补充。

Are so much of Firmicus' material is just him copying material from earlier sources, which I took to mean that it's not like Valens where Valens is just showing a 100 example charts of his personal practice, which complements his copying of the material.

但菲米库斯确实有几处旁征博引，谈到了他自己在实践中所见、所证实或未证实的事情。

But Firmicus does have a number of digressions where he does talk about his personal, what he's seen in practice and things that he has confirmed or not confirmed.

昨晚我注意到一个注释，我认为是在第七卷中，他提到了很多，或者我觉得是很多。

I noticed one note, I think from Book Seven last night where he mentions a lot or I think it was a lot.

他说：我正在记录这个，别人说这很好，但我还没试过。

He says, I'm recording this, others have said it's good, I haven't tried it yet.

所以需要别人去试试，看看是否有效。

So somebody else needs to try it out and see if it works.

因此，费尔米库斯确实有一些个人实践的成分，尽管与瓦伦斯这样一生致力于占星、拥有学派并教授学生的人，或像托勒密这样以极高智力层次处理这些问题的顶尖科学家和哲学家相比，他可能更像一个业余占星师。

So there is an element of personal practice and Firmicus, while he may be more of an amateur astrologer compared to somebody like Valens or Valens whose entire life and career is dedicated to that and who has a school and is teaching students, or somebody like Ptolemy who's like this very high level scientist and philosopher who's treating these things in a very high intellectual level.

费尔米库斯或许低于这些人物，或属于不同类别，但他仍然是四世纪中期的一位占星师，努力钻研并实践这些材料，同时关注身边人的星盘，将这些原则付诸实践。

Firmicus falls somewhere below those or in a different category, but there's still an element where he is an astrologer from the middle of the fourth century who's trying to wrestle with and grapple this material and is also paying attention to the charts of people around him and putting these principles into practice.

是的。

Yeah.

托勒密，你其实无法确定他是否真的排过星盘。

Ptolemy, you can't really tell if he ever cast a chart.

《四书》第一卷中的哲学内容相当浅显。

And the philosophical stuff in the Tetrabiblos is pretty light in book one.

但你可以看出，费尔米库斯对哲学更为认真，并且积极地进行星盘推算。

But you can tell in Firmicus, he takes the philosophy a lot more seriously and is actively involved in casting charts.

对。

Right.

我的意思是，是的，这一点很重要，那就是占星术的辩护，因为这是一个很好的类比：托勒密和菲米库斯都在他们的著作开篇就为占星术进行辩护，试图回应早期怀疑论者对占星术的批评。

I mean, yeah, well, that's an important thing, the defenses of astrology because that's a good parallel is both Ptolemy and Firmicus open their texts with a defense of astrology where they try to respond to criticisms of astrology by earlier skeptics.

比如，西塞罗可能就是托勒密在批判占星术时所针对的人物之一，因为书中所列举的具体论点，或者至少托勒密回应的是新学园或其他类似哲学家的观点。

Like Cicero, for example, may have been one of the people that Ptolemy was responding to in his critique of astrology because of the specific arguments that are outlined or maybe if not Ptolemy, some of the earlier philosophers from the New Academy or different philosophers like that.

但菲米库斯有一个特别有趣的地方，你的翻译很好地突出了这一点：他把为占星术辩护的过程设定成一场法庭审判，而他自己则扮演为占星术辩护的律师。

So Firmicus though, one of the things that's really funny that your translation draws out is Firmicus sets up the defense astrology like it's a court case and he's arguing as a lawyer on the side of the defense of astrology.

你的翻译更清晰地展现了菲米库斯如何将他一生中大量运用的修辞技巧和法律辩护技能带入到这里，仿佛他真是一位为占星术辩护的律师。

And your translation draws that out so much better in terms of seeing Firmicus use some of those skills in oratory and in legal defense that he spent so much of his life using by bringing it here as the lawyer who's trying to defend astrology.

是的，律师的角色非常明显，因为他有时会提前预告自己接下来要讲的内容。

Yeah, the lawyer really comes out because sometimes he'll signpost ahead of time what he's going to do.

但有时候，你可能会搞不清他的论证方向。

And then sometimes, you might lose sense of where his argument is going.

然后他会说，我知道我本该早些谈到这一点，比如某某内容。

And he'll say, I know I should have talked about this yet, you know, such and such.

那我们在这里做吧。

Now let's do it here.

所以，这整个是一种说服的手段。

And so, this is a whole persuasion thing.

但其中蕴含着一些深刻的哲学思想。

But there is some deep philosophy that's going on in there.

我曾试图指出他的论证中那些包含多个步骤的地方。

And I've tried to draw out when his arguments have several steps to them.

我已在脚注中标出了这些步骤，因为他并不总是提前告诉你。

I've tried to put in the footnotes where those steps are, because he doesn't always tell you ahead of time.

对。

Right.

但他确实会先概述对手的观点，然后在某个时刻再给出回应。

But he does outline like he'll do, he'll outline his opponent's position first, and then at some point, he'll outline the response to that.

所以，他是在构建这种来回往复的法律辩护模式。

So, he's setting it up like this back and forth legal defense.

是的

Yeah.

他还会做一些令人惊讶的事情。

And he does some surprising things.

我能想到的有两点：第一，他采纳了一个反对命运的常见论点。

And two things I can think of is, one, he takes a common argument against fate.

而且，他以一种出人意料的方式将其彻底反转。

And in a way, he kind of turns it on its head in an unexpected way.

还有一个关于命运的论点，有些人认为某些事情是命中注定的，而某些事情则不是。

There's another argument about fate where some people want to say, well, certain things are fated, and certain things are not.

他用一些例子表明，最终你必须被引导至他所主张的彻底宿命论。

And he uses some examples to show that ultimately, no, you have to be led down his way to total fate.

所以这里有一些我以前从未见过的新内容。

So there's new stuff in here that I've never seen before.

他愿意做一些大胆的举动来支持自己的观点。

And he's willing to do some daring things to make his case.

是的，因为他想论证完全的决定论，认为一切事情都是注定或预先决定好的。

Yeah, because he wants to argue for complete determinism, and that everything is fated or predetermined to occur.

这就是他对占星术的理解和概念化：占星术揭示一个人的命运，或展示一个人命运的定数。

That's his understanding and conceptualization then of what astrology is about and what its purpose is, is that astrology shows you a person's fate or shows you the decree of a person's fate.

这与像托勒密这样的人不同，托勒密并不认为一切都是预先决定的，他认为有些事情是可以改变的——如果你任由事物自然发展，那么事情确实会按照行星所指示的方式发生。

And that's different than somebody like, for example, Ptolemy who doesn't think that everything's predetermined or thinks that there are some things that can be changed that if you just let things go their natural course, then sure, things will be determined in the way that the planets indicate it.

但如果你意识到自己可以避免某些命运走向，或试图改善它们，情况就不同了。

However, if you try to offset things once you're aware that you can avert certain things in terms of a person's fate or maybe make them better or what have you.

但那不是。

But that's not.

菲米库斯属于完全决定论一派，这又是另一个让他在这部原始作品中难以被视为基督徒的原因，因为占星术与基督教之间的主要分歧之一就在于：基督教神学极其强调自由意志，强调人必须主动选择接受耶稣从而得救。

Firmicus is on the full determinism camp, which is again another reason why it's harder to view him as a Christian in this original work because that became one of the main sticking points between astrology and Christianity is that Christian theology puts a great deal of emphasis on free will and making the choice to accept Jesus essentially and be saved.

而基督徒们对占星术如此强调命运与宿命论感到非常不安。

And the Christians became very uncomfortable with the extent to which astrology was more focused on fate and predetermination and things like that.

某种程度上，很难说这是否是一个重大区别，因为他在一些地方似乎想表达，内在的道德提升可以让你略微超脱这个被决定的世界。

In a way, it's hard to say if that is a big distinction or not simply because in a few places, he seems to want to say that internal moral improvement can kind of lift you a little bit out of this determined world.

他并没有多说什么。

He doesn't really say much.

这可能是个问题。

And that could be a problem.

对。

Right.

但确实，这取决于你怎么看待，可能正如你所说的那样。

But, but yeah, it is something that depending how you look at it could could could mean what you said.

为了举例说明他在后面论点中的做法，他反驳了我在书中称之为‘始末命运’或‘有限命运’的一种观点。

And just to give an example of what he does in this later argument, he argues against something that I'm, for the purposes of the book, calling beginning and end fate, or limited fate.

他说，有些人认为，一个人注定在某个特定时间来到世间，也注定在某个特定时间以某种方式离开，就像命运女神剪断你生命之线一样，你知道的，希腊的命运三女神。

And he says, there's some people, and this is where he defines the word He says, there's some people who think that you're fated to come into the world at a certain time, and you're fated to go out in a certain way in time, kind like the fates cutting your thread of life, you know, the Greek fates.

在阿拉伯占星术中，代表死亡的星盘部分被称为‘剪断者’。

And in Arabic astrology, the parts of the chart that show death are called the cutters.

所以他们确实有这种‘剪断’的概念。

So they've got that cutting.

好吧，所以在生命结束时，这也已经淡化了。

Okay, so at the end of the life, that's also faded.

但中间发生的一切都由你决定。

But whatever happens in the middle is up to you.

他首先提出了一些情景，比如在这些情况下有人早逝、有人晚逝。

Well, he starts posing a couple of scenarios of someone who dies early, someone who dies late under these circumstances.

他最终表明，人们的命运、他们的结局，并不独立于他们一生中所经历的其他事情。

And what he ends up showing is that people's fates, their ends are not separate from the other things they've done in life.

你可能会安详地死在自己的床上。

You may die comfortably in your bed.

但你之所以在那里，完全是因为一连串其他事情共同作用的结果。

But the whole reason that you're there is because of a whole other string of things that have all come there.

而所有这些事情都与你的死亡息息相关。

And all of those are implicated in your death.

对。

Right.

所以你不能把这微弱而褪色的瞬间，与造就它的所有事情割裂开来。

So you can't separate this like, tiny little faded moment from everything that has created it.

因此，他一步步地表明，即使你接受了这种有限的命运，你也必须全盘接受。

So kind of step by step he shows that shows that even if you accept this limited fate, you have to have the whole package.

你必须全部买下。

You have to buy it all.

对。

Right.

他说，如果认为一个人的死亡是注定的，却不接受生命中的其他事情也是注定的，这是没有道理的。

He says it doesn't make sense to accept that a person's death is predetermined and to not accept then that other things in the life are also predetermined.

对。

Right.

这很有道理。

That makes sense.

此外，在书的很后面，他曾提到过一种常见的斯多葛派观点，关于占星术的目的，这与瓦伦斯所说的——在好事面前不狂喜，在坏事面前不过度沮丧——非常相似。

Then elsewhere, at one point very late in the book, he gives the kind of common Stoic refrain about the purpose of astrology that sounds very similar to what Valens says about not being overjoyed in the case of good things or overly depressed in the case of bad things.

而这一点是大多数占星师在谈及占星术目的时的共同看法：即通过了解未来，来明白自己必须接受的生活现实，从而坦然面对，或获得更大的内心平静，诸如此类？

And that was something that most of the astrologers all shared in common about the purpose of astrology being about learning the future so that you could know what you had to accept about your life and come to terms with it or adopt a greater sense of tranquility or what have you surrounding that?

是的，我觉得他还为此增添了一些自己独特的视角

Yeah, I feel like he also added his own little unusual perspective on it to

后来的那个观点。

the later one.

不过，我也想回到你之前提到的关于抵抗的那一点。

Well, because I also want to mention go back to your one about resisting at some point.

但首先，我想先明确一下

But first, I just want to establish

不要因好事而过度欣喜，也不要因坏事而过度悲伤。

this Don't overly rejoice at the good, don't overly, you know, feel bad at the bad.

但我觉得他曾经还提到过另一点，抱歉，我不想岔开话题，但我感觉

But I feel like at one point, he fit in another thing that was that I'm sorry, I don't want divert us, but I feel

我来看看能不能找到原文。

like I'll see if I can find it.

因为这实际上是我将来想做的一件事，比如再和你做一期关于这个的节目。

Because that's actually something I'd like to do at some point, like another episode with you about.

你和我以前经常讨论斯多葛主义，那是你在大学时花了很多时间研究的内容。

You and I used to talk a lot about Stoicism and that was something that you spent a lot of time studying in college.

斯多葛主义与占星术之间的联系，在那个时期其实还很少被探讨——当斯多葛主义在公元前一世纪和公元最初一两百年达到鼎盛时，占星术也正处于它的黄金时期，两者之间存在一些关联？

Just the connection between Stoicism and astrology is something that's a little underexplored in terms of in that period that when Stoicism was at its height of popularity in the first century BCE and first century or two CE, that also happened to coincide with the period of the height of astrology and there were some interconnections between the two?

是的。

Yes.

要么是星辰在推动事情发生，或者你也可以说，它们是正在发生之事的征兆，但整个世界是由一种特殊的创造之火——神圣理智构成的。

Either that the stars were making things happen, or you might, you could say, I suppose that they were signs of things that were happening, but that the entire world was, the entire world is composed of the divine mind, which is a special kind of creative fire.

这是一种具有创造性和理性的火。

It's a creative and rational fire.

因此，一切发生的事情都是神圣理智在时间中展开的一部分。

So, happening is part of the working out of the divine mind over time.

这与中期柏拉图主义有些相似。

And this is something that was similar to middle, some middle Platonism.

如果你了解迦勒底神谕，迦勒底神谕提到，上帝将爱播种在宇宙中，那爱沉重地裹挟着火焰的束缚，或者说是将充满爱之束缚的火焰播撒进宇宙。

If you know the Chaldean oracles, the Chaldean oracles talk about how the Godfather sowed sowed, I think I think it was sowed love, heavy with the bonds of fire, or sowed fire heavy with the bounds bonds of love into the universe.

因此，整个世界本质上是一种理性的神圣之火，这完全是斯多葛派的观点。

So, this idea of the whole world is ultimately this kind of rational divine fire is a totally stoic idea.

他使用了一些完全相同的措辞。

And he drops some of those exact phrases.

没错。

In Right.

因为命运是宇宙中一种理性的秩序原则，它按照神圣的计划安排一切，本质上是说每件事的发生都有其原因。

The Because the idea is fate is the rational ordering principle in the universe that orders things in accordance with a divine plan, that everything happens for a reason, essentially.

是的。

Yeah.

他曾经提到过，我认为他说过‘自然’、‘工匠’，然后谈到了创造之火。

He says at one point, I think he says nature, the artisan, and then he talks about the creative fire.

我在第554页找到了斯多葛派的相关内容。

I did find the stoic part at page five fifty four.

如果这就是你找的那段，他在这段中加入了自己的一些内容，听起来确实很斯多葛。

That sounds stoic if that's the one you're looking for where he adds his own thing to it.

可能是哪一句？

Could be which is the sentence?

大概是第11句左右。

The sentence around sentence 11.

我们正在与所有扭曲的欲望分离。

We're separating ourselves from all desires of distorted longings.

接着他谈到，这能极大地实现这些目标：即当我们蔑视人类事务中所有被视为不幸或幸运的事物时，我们能将心灵回归到原始的自然德性与权威，保持纯净与完整。

And then he goes into, It accomplishes these things very greatly so that having despised all things which are thought to be either bad or prosperous in human affairs, we may return our mind composed in natural virtue and authority, uncorrupted and intact to its origin.

因为当我们明白苦难终将到来时，我们就会蔑视对重大灾祸的恐惧——这正是我们为何说，要以正直的心灵勇气面对这些苦难，也不会因预示的危险而战栗。

For when we will have learned that troubles are coming, we will despise the fear of eminent evils, which was why we said they were coming with the courage of an upright mind nor will we shudder at the dangers of the threatened evils.

他继续说，当我们了解了神圣裁决所承诺给我们的一切时，我们就不会被不幸的困扰所击倒，也不会因荣华富贵的表象而得意忘形。

And he goes on, We will not be taken by the troubles of unluckiness nor will we rise up at the trappings of dignity when we have known the whole of what is promised for us by the pronouncing of the divine decree.

因此，当我们以稳固的理性构成时，就永远不会被厄运所压垮，也不会因虚幻的喜悦而飘飘然。

Thus we being composed of stable reason can never be oppressed by misfortunes nor be raised up by the joy of unluckiness.

听起来真的非常接近。

It just sounds so close to that.

我的意思是，我明白他还在加入一些关于起源之类的内容，比如这个斜杠。

I mean, I understand he's also adding in things about the origins and things like that, like the slash

第十三和第十四句是像托勒密等人常用的那些标准表述。

Sentences thirteen and fourteen are those standard formulas that you see in people like Ptolemy and others.

对。

Right.

但前面的句子是斯多葛派的。

But but the but the previous sentences are stoic.

因为你在做的，是鄙视整个类别。

Because you're what you're doing is you're despising the cat the entire category.

大多数人认为是善与恶的事物，对吧？因为实际上，它们都是无所谓的。

Things that most people think are good and evil, right, because actually, they're indifferent.

当他谈到勇气时，这非常接近斯多葛派勇气美德的定义之一。

And then when he talks about courage, this is very close to one of the definitions of the stoic virtue of courage.

所以他融合了普通、主流的通用观点，非常有意思。

So he's, he's such an interesting mix of the normal, sort of a mainstream kind of generic view of things.

然后他会突然插入一些具体的斯多葛派、柏拉图派或其他思想。

And then he'll suddenly start dropping specifically stoic, or platonic or whatever things in there.

让我展示一下瓦伦斯的这段文字作为对比。

Let me show that passage from Valens just for comparison.

这是瓦伦斯的著名段落。

This is the famous passage from Valens.

我觉得这出自第五卷。

I think it's from book five.

他说：那些从事未来与真理预测的人，拥有自由而不受奴役的灵魂，不会过分看重命运，不沉迷于希望，也不畏惧死亡，而是以无畏的态度生活，通过训练灵魂保持自信，既不过度喜悦于好事，也不因坏事而沮丧，而是满足于当下的一切。

He says, Those who engage in the prediction of the future and the truth, having acquired a soul that is free and not enslaved, do not think highly of fortune and do not devote themselves to hope nor are they afraid of death, but instead they live their lives undaunted by disturbance by training their souls to be confident and neither rejoice excessively in the case of good nor become depressed in the case of bad but instead are content with whatever is present.

不渴望不可能之事的人，能够凭借自我掌控承受命中注定的一切；他们超脱于一切愉悦与赞誉，因而成为命运的战士。

Those who do not desire the impossible are capable of bearing that which is preordained through their own self mastery and being estranged from all pleasure or praise, they become established as soldiers of fate.

注意

Notice

那里的区别。

the difference there.

这段话与第十三和第十四句类似，说的是不要在好事面前过度欣喜，也不要在坏事面前过度沮丧。

That passage similar to sentences thirteen and fourteen talks about do not rejoice excessively in the case of good, nor become depressed in the case of bad.

这证实了我们常规分类和道德范畴的准确性。

That is confirming the accuracy of our normal categories, our normal moral categories.

它只是在说，别太兴奋。

It's just saying don't get too excited.

但现在看看第十一句中的菲米库斯。

But read now look at Firmicus in sentence 11.

蔑视所有被认为在人事中是坏的或顺遂的事物，对吧？

Having despised all things which are thought to be either bad or prosperous in human affairs, right?

这是一种斯多葛式的观点，因为你对所有我们常规的道德范畴提出了质疑，并超越了它们。

That is a stoic approach, because you're putting into question all of our normal moral categories, and rising above them.

所以他在同一段话中同时做到了这两点。

So he's doing both in the same in the same paragraph.

所以，斯托克斯的区分在于可取与不可取之间的区别。

So it's the Stokes distinction is distinction between what is preferable versus what is unpreferable.

这个类别叫什么来着？

What's that category called again?

它被称为中性物。

It's called the indifferent.

对吧？

Right?

好的。

Okay.

而这些中性物实际上遍布在整个占星图中。

It's so and indifferent things are actually all around the astrology chart.

所以我们大多数人会说，拥有关系是好的，死亡是坏的。

So most of us would say, you know, having relationships is good, death is bad.

你知道，职业是好的，疾病是坏的。

You know, profession is good, illness is bad.

所以我们可以在整个星盘上都贴上好与坏的标签。

So we can call good, bad, good, bad all over the astrology chart.

如果你把价值寄托在这些事情上，你的一生就会像一艘小船一样被抛来抛去，或者像坐过山车一样，因为这些事情并不在你的掌控之中，尽管它们确实是生活的一部分。

Now, if you put your value into those things, you will be tossed about like a little boat throughout life, or you'll be on a roller coaster, because those things are not in your control, even though they're part of life.

通常的观点是：看吧，我们不应该对那些所谓的好事过于兴奋，因为它们可能并没有你想象的那么好。

The standard view is saying, Look, we need to not be overexcited about those good things, because they might not be as good as you think.

我们也不必为那些坏事过度沮丧，因为我们或许可以提前做好准备。

Let's not get overly upset at the bad things, because we can maybe prepare for them.

这就是通常的看法。

That's the that's the normal view.

斯多葛派的观点是，这些好与坏的分类是虚假的，所有这些事情本质上既非善也非恶。

The stoic view is those good and bad categories are false, That all of those things are not truly good and evil.

它们只具有条件性或选择性的价值。

They only have conditional or selective value.

它们可能有用，也可能无用。

They might be useful or unuseful.

有时候你会追求它们，有时候则不会。

Sometimes you go for them, sometimes you don't.

但如果你能从情感上摆脱对这些事情贴上好坏标签的倾向，你就能保持平静，过上人们所说的顺遂流畅的人生。

But if you can emotionally attach, detach from calling those things actually good and bad, you'll be able to be calm and live what they call a smooth flow of life.

但只有当你鄙视这些分类本身时，你才能做到这一点。

But you can only do that if you despise the very categories.

‘鄙视’这个词有点强烈，但你知道，别把其中任何一种真正视为好或坏。

Despise is a pretty strong word, but you know, right, don't consider either of those truly good or bad.

所以他在第十一句中做的是正统斯多葛派的事情。

So he's doing the Orthodox Stoic thing in sentence 11.

然后他在第十三和十四句中转向了日常生活中常见的建议。

And then he's coming down to the kind of normal, everyday advice in thirteen and fourteen.

明白了。

Got it.

好的。

Okay.

这真的很重要。

So that's really important.

但让我们再回过头来看，菲米库斯有一句奇怪的话，尽管整段文字总体上非常决定论，他在决定论的倾向上甚至比其他希腊化时期的占星家如托勒密还要极端。

But then just to circle back, there is this one weird line in Firmicus where even though most of the text is largely very deterministic and he falls more on the complete determinism side of the spectrum compared to even other Hellenistic astrologers like Ptolemy.

他在第一卷第六章提到过，要抵抗星辰的谕令及其力量，这几乎暗示着——只要这不是后人插入的文本——他的体系或许并非完全决定论的。

He does have that one reference about It's in Book one, Chapter six where he says something about resisting the decrees of the stars as well as their powers that almost implies as long as this isn't like an interpolation or something that perhaps his system is not completely deterministic.

但这很奇怪，因为他再也没有提及这一点。

But it's just weird because he never goes back to that.

他再也没有回到这个话题。

He never returns to that.

关于这个小小的插叙，似乎有些谜团。

There's sort of some mystery about what that little digression was about.

我的感觉是，让我想想。

My sense is, let's see.

你能听到我们吗？

Do you have us?

我们制作了。

We made.

好的。

Okay.

让我们谦卑地召唤众神。

Let us humbly invoke the gods.

并虔诚地履行对神灵许下的誓言。

And let us render religiously the promised vows to the divine powers.

以便我们心灵的神性得到强化，从而在某种程度上抵抗星辰的暴烈 decree 及其力量。

So that with the divinity of our mind being strengthened, we may to some degree resist the violent decree of the stars, as well as their powers.

这可能有几种含义。

This could mean a couple of things.

一是，如果你完全与神明之心一致，那么一切对你来说都会顺利。

One is, if you are totally in line with the divine mind, then everything is smooth for you.

你永远不会遇到任何与你真正需要或渴望相悖的事物。

Nothing, you will never encounter anything that is contrary to what you actually need or desire.

因为你真正渴望的，正是神圣心灵正在做的事情。

Because what you actually desire is exactly what the divine mind is doing.

所以从某种意义上说，你可以通过与神圣心灵保持一致来抵抗它们。

So you so, in a sense, you can resist them by being aligned with the divine mind.

他也可能意味着，由于他在整本书中所体现的道德主义，你会被净化掉那些让大多数人陷入困境的卑劣欲望。

He could also mean that because of his moralism throughout the book, you will be purified of the kind of wretched desires that gets most people in trouble.

对。

Right.

因为这引出了一个我非常关注的术语，你对它的翻译以及对细节和微妙之处的把握——在第二卷开篇不久，当他谈到宫位时，提到第十二宫，你将拉丁术语翻译为‘恶习’，我觉得这非常有意思。

Because that brings up a term I was really interested in your translation of and your attention to the detail, the nuances of this, which is that at one point very early in Book two when he's talking about the houses, he gets to the twelfth house and he mentions the twelfth house and you translate the Latin term as vices, which I thought was very interesting.

尽管你指出，在不同地方这个术语有时也可以表示‘缺陷’，而这里存在一种模糊性：有时菲米库斯确实用这个词表示缺陷，但在其他时候他又用它来指代恶习。

Although you point out at different points that the term can sometimes also mean defects And there's this ambiguity where sometimes Firmicus clearly does use that Latin word to mean defects in different parts of the work, but then in other times he uses it to mention vices.

你指出，其中一部分关联在于，恶习是心灵的缺陷。

And you pointed out that part of the connection is that vices are defects of the mind.

是的，没错。

Yeah, right.

所以，像愤怒这样的东西，斯多葛学派的标准观点是，愤怒是一种精神疾病，是心灵的缺陷。

So, things like, so anger, the standard Stoic view is that anger is a mental illness, anger is a defect of the mind.

所以，如果你与上帝正确地保持一致，那么当你感到愤怒时，不仅你与上帝脱节，而且你的愤怒还会把你引向那些你的命盘很可能预示会以糟糕收场或不会成功的道路。

So, but if you are aligned with God properly, well, and so, so if you feel anger, not only are you out of whack with God, but your anger is going to lead you right down those paths that your nativity is probably predicting will end up badly or won't work out.

因此，与上帝保持一致，或者像斯多葛学派所说的‘与自然和谐一致’，意味着提升心灵，从而治愈愤怒等缺陷。

So, the idea of aligning yourself with God, or what the Stokes call living in agreement, as he's, you know, elevating the mind, you are healing yourself of defects like anger.

像愤怒这样的恶习。

Vices like anger.

在后来的传统中，是否有其他中世纪作者继续将恶习与第十二宫联系起来？

Do you know later in the tradition, are there other medieval authors that continue to associate vices with the twelfth house?

嗯，你确实能看到一些关于精神问题的端倪。

Well, are, you do see, inklings of mental problems.

但他们并没有对此形成非常成熟的观点。

They don't have a really developed idea about that.

也没有类似现代关于第十二宫和潜意识那样的观念。

And nothing like the modern notions of the twelfth house and the unconscious and so on.

有一点，我觉得。

There's a little bit of it, I'd say.

好的。

Okay.

所以，是的，我觉得这很有趣，值得引起注意。

So yeah, I just thought that was interesting and something to draw attention to.

让我们快速回到弗尔米库斯作为编纂者及其一些资料来源。

Let's go back really quickly to Firmicus as a compiler and some of his sources.

弗尔米库斯对宇宙诞生图（即主题世界）有最详尽的讨论之一，这个神话中的创世星盘奠定了宫位归属体系的基础，解释了为什么各行星主宰特定的黄道星座。

Firmicus has one of the most extensive discussions of the Thema Mundi that survives the mythical birth chart for the beginning of the cosmos which lays out the foundation for the domicile scheme or the reason why the planets rule certain signs of the zodiac.

而在这一部分的开头，他列出了希腊化占星术早期奠基者的等级顺序，并特别引用了一些他所依赖的资料来源，对吧？

And right at the beginning of that, he gives this hierarchy of the early founders of Hellenistic astrology and cites some people in particular who he draws on as sources, right?

是的，他简要提及了这一传统是如何传承下来的，以及谁对哪些内容负有责任。

Yeah, he gives a little bit about how the tradition was handed down and some hints about who was responsible for what.

所以这出现在第三卷。

So this is in book three.

三

Three,

第一章

chapter one.

好的

Okay.

第三卷第一章，他正准备介绍这本书的开篇，因为第二卷主要是他关于防御性占星术的内容。

Book three, chapter one, and he's getting ready to introduce the very beginning of this book because book two, it's like book one was largely his defensive astrology.

第二卷是他介绍占星术的基本原则、主宰关系和一些基础概念。

Book two is him introducing basic principles and rulerships and just basic concepts in astrology.

而第三卷才是真正严肃起来的开始，他开始给出星盘解读，首先是介绍宇宙主题图，然后立即进入长达一整卷的解释，说明不同行星位于十二宫中的各自含义。

And then book three is when things start getting serious and he starts giving delineations starting with introducing the Thema Mundi and then he immediately goes into just a long book of interpretations of what it means when different planets are in each of the 12 houses.

是的

Yep.

还有派别

And sect.

是的

Yeah.

所以直接切入主题。

So, jumps right in.

这是一段非常有趣且详尽的论述，

So this is it's a really interesting, long treatment,

我

I

我认为这可能是我们所拥有的关于主题世界最长的论述。

think it's probably the longest that we have about the Thema Mundi.

然后他接着讨论了五个非 luminaries（非发光天体），并简要回顾了人类历史：我们从土星开始，那时人类处于粗野、狂野和暴力的状态。

And then he then takes the five non luminaries, and has a little kind of a history of humanity, where we start with Saturn, which is people in a state of kind of crudeness and wildness and violence.

随后，当人类发展出宗教等文明后，社会变得更有秩序、更良善。

And then humanity, after it develops things like religion, and so on, then it becomes more orderly and good.

于是他依次探讨了这五颗行星，讲述了人类的星象历史。

And so he goes through all five planets with a little astrological history of humans.

对。

Right.

是的，这部分非常重要，因为他在这篇论述的开头提到了赫尔墨斯、阿斯克勒庇俄斯、内赫普索和佩托西里斯，作为这一传承的一部分。

Yeah, a lot of that's really important because he mentions at the beginning of this treatment like Hermes and then Asclepius and Nechepso and Petosiris as part of this lineage.

然后可以推断，他关于世界命盘的论述是源自你所说的内赫普索和佩托西里斯的文本，或者直接源自阿斯克勒庇俄斯。

And then it's implied that he's then drawing his treatment of the Thema Mundi from, I think you said from the text of Nechepso and Petosiris or from Asclepius directly.

是的，他在前言中说，是佩托西里斯和内赫普索为我们提供了世界命盘。

Yeah, he says in the preface, he says, it's Petosiris and the Nechepso gave us the Thema Mundi.

所以他直接归功于他们。

So he's directly crediting them.

以便展现人类是按照世界本身的性质与形象所塑造的。

So that they could display and show man as being formed in the nature and likeness of the world.

他说，他们自己则是遵循了更早的先贤，如阿斯克勒庇俄斯、阿努比奥和赫尔墨斯。

So and he says that they in turn had been following previous people like Asclepius and Anubio and Hermes.

但他强调，是内赫普索和佩托西里斯向我们提供了世界的星盘。

So but he's saying that Nechepso and Petosiris are giving us the chart of the world.

对。

Right.

而且

And

这可能很重要，因为他指出是他们向我们提供了这一内容。

this could be significant because he's saying that they are giving us this.

第三卷的其余部分全部关于行星在宫位中的位置，这一点我们在勒托里乌斯第57章中也能看到。

Now the rest of book three is all about planets in the places, something that we see in Rhetorius chapter 57.

我们在归于阿努比奥的材料中也能看到这一点。

We see it in material attributed to a nubio.

如果你还记得，这对许多人来说将是全新的内容。

And if you remember, and this will be new for many people.

斯蒂芬·海兰德几年前发表了一篇文章，质疑这些材料是否真的源自阿努比奥。

Stephen Hyland did an article some years ago, where he doubts that this material goes back to a nubio.

有些人认为阿努比奥写了所有这些内容。

Some people thought a nubio wrote all this.