赫尔墨斯主义与古代占星术

它们以圆形环绕着可感知的世界，其统治被称为命运。

They encompass the sensible world in circles and their government is called fate.

所以，这就是关键所在，在《赫尔墨斯文集》的第一卷中——这是整个文本集和这一广泛哲学体系中最重要、最古老、最具奠基性的文本之一——它构建了一个创世故事，其中一部分就是行星环绕地球，并作为命运的主宰。

So that's it and that's really crucial right here in the Corpus Hermeticum in the very first, you know, one of the most important and what's usually considered one of the oldest and most foundational texts for this entire set of different texts and this broad sort of philosophy, it sets up this creation story where part of the creation story is that the planets are encircling the earth and that they are the governors of fate.

是的。

Yep.

好的。

Okay.

不过，有一点很重要，那就是在《赫尔墨斯文集》第一卷《波曼德》中所揭示的启示之一：当我们活着时，我们身处肉体之中，而肉体受命运支配，也在某种程度上受作为命运主宰的行星影响。

So one of the points though that ends up being important is part of the revelation that occurs in the first text of the Corpus Hermeticum in the Poemandry is this notion that while we're alive, that we're in a physical body and the physical body is subject to or is under the control of fate and under the control or influence to some extent of the planets which are the governors of fate.

然而，《赫尔墨斯文集》第一卷似乎还揭示了另一个要点：我们还拥有一种灵魂，它并非源于物质界，而是从行星天球之外的另一个层面降下，这种灵魂本身并不像肉体那样受命运的束缚。

However, part of the revelation it seems like in the very first text of the Corpus Hermeticum is that we also have some sort of soul which is not from the material plane, but actually descended from some other plane outside of the planetary spheres and that the soul itself is not subject to fate in the same way at least when it's not down here encompassed by the physical body.

这大致正确吗？

Is that more or less correct?

是的。

Yes.

所以意思是，我们的灵魂，也就是我们真正是谁，是由上帝直接创造的。

So the idea is that you know, our souls you know, who we what and who we really are, you know, was made directly by God.

上帝创造了造物主，由他来创造其余的宇宙，但我们并非这个宇宙的产物。

You know, God made the demiurge, the craftsman who made the rest of the cosmos, but we are not a product of our cosmos.

我们的身体是宇宙的产物，因此天生就受宇宙的法则和能量所支配。

Our bodies are a product of the cosmos, and therefore, our bodies are subject to the laws and energies of the cosmos inherently, innately.

我们的身体无法逃脱这种命运。

Our bodies cannot escape that kind of fate.

然而，我们的灵魂在技术上是不受命运束缚的，因为它来自命运之外的地方。

Our souls, however, are technically immune to fate because it comes from a place beyond fate.

我们面临的困难在于，我们的灵魂寄居于这些身体之中。

The difficulty, the rub for us, lies the fact that our souls inhabit these bodies.

你知道，你走出去，穿着一件衬衫。

You know, you go outside, you're wearing a shirt.

别人会嘲笑你或评论你的衬衫，除非你把衬衫完全脱掉，否则你无法避免接收到这些评论。

People will make fun of you or they'll comment on your shirt, and you can't but receive those comments unless you just take off the shirt entirely.

但你没法这么做，毕竟你是在公共场合。

But you can't do that because you're in public.

同理，我们的灵魂也“穿”着这些肉身，而肉身才是受命运束缚的那一方。

In much the same way, our souls are wearing these bodies, and these bodies are what's subject to fate.

我们的灵魂本不受命运支配，但由于灵魂和肉身深度交融，灵魂依然会被命运影响。

Our souls aren't subject to fate, but because of how closely intermingled our souls are with our bodies, our souls can still be impacted by fate.

你知道的，我敢说你可能听过一种说法，就是占星学那档子事——呃，我该怎么说才对来着？

Know, I'm sure you might have heard saying, you know, astrology, you know, does not how's the word I go?

它不会强迫你做什么。

It does not compel.

它只会推动你做出选择。

It only impels.

你会经历一段既定的人生历程。

You know, you get a certain transit.

它不会直接命令你必须要如何行事。

It's not gonna tell you you will act like this.

它会给你一种以某种方式行动的冲动。

It gives you an impulse to act in a certain way.

同样地，我们也是这样描述灵魂的。

In much the same way, we describe that of the soul.

命运驱使身体。

Fate compels the body.

它推动灵魂。

It impels the soul.

它并不会像驱使身体那样去强制灵魂。

It does not compel the soul in some way it compels the body.

对。

Right.

因此有一种观点认为，一旦我们的灵魂附身于肉体，就会受到一些与身体相关的事物的影响，这不仅包括健康与疾病这类生理层面的东西——据说这些都受行星支配，还包括欲望以及其他主要源自身体而非灵魂的动机，这些因素会让我们陷入某些行为，或做出灵魂若不被肉体束缚时本不会做的事。

So there's notion that once our soul becomes incarnated in a body that we're subject to some of the things that come with the body, which is not just health and sickness which is one of the physical things then that is said to be subject to the planets, but also to desires and to other motivations that arise primarily from the body rather than the soul and that that can cause us then to be led into certain things or to do certain things that the soul might not do otherwise if it was not encompassed by the body.

因为灵魂与身体如此紧密地交织在一起，行星和命运作用于身体的能力，也会某种程度上拖着灵魂一同行动。

Because it becomes so intertwined with the body, the ability of the planets and of fate to act on the body becomes something that can kind of drag the soul along as well.

是的。

Yes.

所以在其他更具柏拉图主义色彩的赫尔墨斯文本中——虽然不属于《赫尔墨斯文集》，但属于其他古典赫尔墨斯文献——你会看到关于‘thumos’和‘epithumia’的概念，也就是驱动力与欲望。

So in other Hermetic texts that have a more strongly Platonic been to them, not part of the Corpus Hermeticum but other, you know, classical Hermetic texts, you see this Platonic notion of thumos and epithumia, or the drive and desire.

它同样运用了柏拉图的隐喻，将灵魂比作一位车夫，努力驾驭两匹狂野且需要被驯服的马。

And it kind of uses the same Platonic metaphor of the soul as a charioteer, you know, trying to drive these two horses that are wild and need to be broken.

如果车夫技艺不精，这两匹马就会带着车夫任意奔逃，无论是冲进沟渠还是撞上墙壁，都可能给车夫带来毁灭。

And if the charioteer isn't good at what they're doing, the horses will just take that charioteer wherever they want, whether it's into a ditch or into a wall, you know, it could spell doom for the charioteer.

但如果车夫技艺高超，懂得如何驾驭和引导这两匹马，就能前往任何想去的地方。

But if the charioteer knows what they're doing and knows how to steer and guide those horses, then they can go wherever they want.

你在这里看到的是欲望——身体的生理需求，以及自我——因灵魂附体而产生的各种情绪冲动。

You have this notion of the appetites, physical needs of the body, and the ego, the emotional impulses that arise from us being incarnate.

这些是身体的能量，也就是所谓的‘较低灵魂’，由宇宙所生成的、属于身体的灵魂。

You know, those are the energies of the body, the so called lower soul as it were, the soul generated by the cosmos, the soul of the body.

而我们的更高灵魂——真正由神所创造、真正代表‘我们’的那部分——我们必须不断与之斗争。

And our higher soul, the thing that's actually made by God, the thing that's actually us, we have to constantly fight with that.

你知道，我们必须驯服它。

You know, we have to tame it.

我们必须提升自己。

We have to develop ourselves.

如果我们任由身体主导，那我可能会一天24小时不停地吃披萨。

If we just let the body have our way, well, then I'll be eating pizza twenty four hours a day.

我会生病的。

I'll get sick.

我会得高血压和高胆固醇，这会早早要了我的命。

I'll get high blood pressure and cholesterol, and that'll spend my early doom.

但如果我的灵魂能与身体协作，理解这些冲动是什么、它们真正想要什么以及为什么想要，那我就会说：我知道你想吃披萨，但来，吃点清蒸鸡肉吧。

But if I have my soul, you know, kind of work with my body and understand what those impulses are, what those you know, what it really wants and why it wants it, then it's like, I know you want pizza, but here, have, you know, some steamed chicken instead.

这样更健康一些。

It's a little bit healthier.

你知道，灵魂就是这样与同样的冲动合作，但以一种更有建设性的方式。

You know, that's where the soul works with the same impulses but in a more constructive way.

对。

Right.

因此，这催生了后来中世纪传统中普遍接受的观点，也是占星术在基督教兴起后仍能幸存下来的一种方式——通过区分自然占星术，他们开始认为占星术和行星会影响身体，但并不控制灵魂，甚至在某种程度上也不完全控制心智。

So this is what gave rise to what became common, especially in the later medieval tradition, and it's one of the ways that astrology was able to survive even after the rise of Christianity through this distinction between natural astrology where they started saying that astrology and the planets have influence over the body, but they don't control the soul or necessarily maybe even the mind to a certain extent.

但相反，它被视为与身体相关的一种近乎自然的现象。

But instead, it's something that relates to the body as an almost natural phenomenon.

是的。

Yes.

没错。

Yeah.

我们在赫尔墨斯文本中可以非常明确地看到这一点。

We see that pretty much explicitly in Hermetic text.

是的。

Yes.

没错。

Yeah.

尽管赫尔墨斯文本中有些复杂，因为它也提到，你的气质是行星所控制的一部分，这开始涉及与你的行为、选择和动机等相关的内容。

Although it's a little complicated in the Hermetic text because it also says that your temperament is part of what the planets have control over, which does start getting into things that have to do with your actions and your choices and motivations and things like that.

我认为现在是个好时机，来阅读最后一段，当赫尔墨斯请波曼德雷斯描述灵魂的上升过程时，我们就能接触到另一部分占星学内容。

I think this is a good point to read the last passage when Hermes asks Poimandres to describe the ascent of the soul because then we get to the other astrological section.

好吧，让我来读一下。

All right, so let me read that.

赫尔墨斯对他的导师说：‘你已很好地教导了我这一切，我的灵啊，正如我所期望的那样，但请再告诉我一次关于上升之路的事。’

Says, Hermes then he's talking to his teacher towards the later part of the dialogue and he says, You've taught me all these things well, O mind, just as I wanted, but tell me again about the way up.

告诉我它是如何发生的。

Tell me about how it happens.

对此，波曼德雷斯说：‘首先，在释放物质身体时，你将身体交予变化，你曾经拥有的形态随之消逝；你将你的气质交出，它如今已不再活跃。’

To this, Poemandry said, First, in releasing the material body, you give the body itself over to alteration and the form that you used to have vanishes to the diamond that you give over your temperament now inactive.

这是一个非常重要的观点。

So that's a really important point.

因此，文本提到，守护灵或个人灵性在某种意义上掌控着你的气质，而这与他们的占星学教义密切相关。

So it says that the daimon or the personal spirit in some sense or spirit guide is somehow in charge of your temperament and that ties into their astrological doctrine.

所以它说，你将 temperament 交给了那个 daemon，它在你物质性死亡后便变得 inactive。

So it says to that daemon you give over to your temperament, it becomes inactive after you die materially.

接着它继续说：身体的感官上升并回归其各自的源头，化为独立的部分，再次与能量融合；而情感与渴望则趋向于理性本质。

So then it goes on and it says, The body's senses rise up and flow back to their particular sources, becoming separate parts and mingling again with the energies and feeling and longing go on towards a rational nature.

然后，人类迅速穿越宇宙结构，在第一层天区放弃增与减的能量。

Then the human being rushes up through the cosmic framework at the first zone surrendering the energy of increase and decrease.

第一层天区就是月亮的球体。

So the first zone is the sphere of the Moon.

因此，它将增与减的概念归于月亮，源于月亮的盈亏变化。

So it's attributing to the Moon notions of increase and decrease because of the waxing and waning of the Moon.

在第二层天区，你放弃邪恶的阴谋，这个机制如今已 inactive。

At the second sphere, you give up evil machinations, a device now inactive.

因此，在这个赫尔墨斯文本中，水星的天区与水星的狡黠能量相关联，称之为邪恶的阴谋。

So the sphere of Mercury in this Hermetic text, it's associating with Mercury and the trickster energy of Mercury and calling it evil machinations.

在第三层天区，渴望的幻象如今已 inactive。

At the third zone, the illusion of longing now inactive.

这是金星的领域，渴望或欲望被归还给金星。

So this is the sphere of Venus and the sphere of longing or desire is given back to Venus.

在第四重天，统治者的傲慢如今已摆脱了过度。

At the fourth sphere, the ruler's arrogance now freed of excess.

因此，傲慢是太阳的特质，当我们穿过太阳的领域后，它就被舍弃了。

So arrogance is a property of the Sun once we pass through the Sun's sphere.

在第五重天，是不敬的妄想与鲁莽的冒险。

At the fifth sphere, unholy presumption and daring recklessness.

这是火星的领域。

This is the sphere of Mars.

在第六重天，由财富引发的邪恶冲动如今已静止。

At the sixth sphere, evil impulses that come from wealth now inactive.

那是木星的领域。

That's Jupiter's sphere.

在第七重天，是潜伏的欺骗。

And at the seventh zone, the deceit that lies in ambush.

因此，它将欺骗与土星的领域联系在一起。

So it associates deceit with Saturn's sphere.

然后，在摆脱了宇宙结构的影响后，人类进入了奥加达区域，这基本上就是第八重天，对吧？

And then stripped of the effects of the cosmic framework, the human enters the region of the Ogdad, which is the eighth sphere basically, right?

是的。

Mhmm.

好的。

Okay.

他拥有自己固有的力量，并与蒙福者一同歌颂父神。

He has his own proper power and along with the blessed, he hymns the Father.

在那里的人们因他的临在而一同欢欣，他们变得如同他的同伴，也听见了存在于第八重天之外的某些力量，并以甜美的声音歌颂神。

Those present there rejoice together in his presence and having become like His companions, He also hears certain powers that exist beyond the eighth region and the hymn God with sweet voice.

他们向上攀升至父神，以奉献自己给这些力量，当他们成为力量之后，便进入神之中。

They rise up to the Father in order to surrender themselves to the powers and having become powers, they enter into God.

对于那些领受了知识的人来说，最终的善就是被造为神。

This is the final good for those who have received knowledge to be made God.

你为什么还要拖延呢？

Why do you still delay?

既然已经了解了这一切，你不该成为有德之人的指引，以便通过你，人类能被神拯救吗？

Having learned all of this, should you not become guide to the worthy so that through you, the human race might be saved by God.

这基本上就是赫尔墨斯主义的核心启示的最终揭示：赫尔墨斯所揭示的不仅是宇宙的创造图景，更是灵魂作为来自物质宇宙之外、降临于此并经由行星天球习得所有这些特质的实体的图景；但一旦你死去，你便有潜力重新穿越行星天球，将这些特质一一舍弃——就像你之前用衣服作比喻那样，最终回归源头。

So is essentially the final revelation of the Hermetic sort of core Hermetic revelation as Hermes has been revealed not just a vision of the creation of the cosmos, but also a vision of the soul as being this entity that comes from outside of the material cosmos that descended here and picked up all these qualities through the planetary spheres, but that once you die, you have the potential of ascending back through the planetary spheres, giving back those qualities or shedding them almost like clothes you were saying earlier using the shirt analogy and then returning back to the source in some sense.

没错。

Exactly.

是的。

Yes.

我

I

我想指出，尽管第二重天区的能量——邪恶的阴谋——可能被描述得有些负面，但我想要强调的是，这些并非邪恶的力量。

want to point out that even though the energy of the second zone, evil machination, even though these might be described somewhat negatively, I wanna make the point that these are not evil powers.

这正是赫尔墨斯主义与诺斯替主义之间的重要区别。

Like, that's a big distinction between Hermeticism and Gnosticism.

这个宇宙并不是邪恶的。

This cosmos is not evil.

它并不是一个邪恶的阴谋者设下的邪恶陷阱，想要折磨我们，以残忍为目的。

It's not some wicked, you know, escaping trap of an evil demure that wants to, you know, torture us where cruelty is the point.

它并不是在描述这样的东西。

It's not describing things like that.

这些能量只是化身所必需的一部分，是我们得以化身所必需的。

Like, these are energies that are just part and parcel of what incarnation needs of us, of what we need in order to be incarnate.

我们不可能摆脱这些能量围绕着我们。

You know, we can't but have these energies around us.

欺骗并不是好事。

You know, deceit is not a good thing.

撒谎、亵渎，这些事情确实不好。

You know, lying, blasphemy, you know, these things are not great.

当然，有些事情并不是真的。

You know, there's there's know, things that aren't true.

但在某种程度上，如果你不一定程度地参与这些，就无法在这里生存下去。

But to an extent, you can't survive down here without engaging that to some degree.

同样，对渴望、欲望、自我中心的自我主义、傲慢这些幻象也是如此。

Same with the illusion of longing, lust, you know, a sense of, you know, self centered egoism, you know, arrogance.

在某种程度上，你必须拥有这些，因为它们赋予了我们生存的动力，让我们在这世界上取得成功。

To an extent, you have to have these things because it's what gives us our drive for survival, you know, a drive to make ourselves succeed in this world.

它们本身并不坏，只是属于这个宇宙的一部分。

Like, they're not bad, it's just they're things that belong to this cosmos.

如果我们想摆脱这个宇宙，就必须放弃这些东西。

And if we want to get away from this cosmos, then we have to give those things up.

是的。

Right.

这说得通。

That makes sense.

这是我以前画过的一个旧图，它展示了我们这里所讨论的宇宙观：地球在中心，七个行星天球环绕着地球和我们，以它们的命运之力包围着我们。

And here's an old diagram that I made a while ago, which just shows sort of the vision of the cosmos that we're talking about here with the Earth at the center and then the seven planetary spheres encircling the Earth and encircling us with their power of fate.

在那之外，还有恒星天球，我记得那是第八层天球。

And then outside of that, you have the sphere of the fixed stars, which I think is the eighth sphere.

而在一些赫密斯主义的宇宙论中，还可能存在第九层或是第十层天球。

And then there are other potentially ninth or tenth spheres in some Hermetic cosmologies.

对吗？

Right?

对的。

Yeah.

《赫尔墨斯文集》第一卷里，这个概念讲得比较含糊。

The book one, the Corpus Hermeticum, kinda leaves us undefined.

而在其他一些赫尔墨斯派文献中，这些天球的内容得到了进一步阐释，不过不同文献的说法并不完全一致。

And in certain other Hermetic texts, it kind of expands on what those spheres are, not necessarily all in the same way.

但没错，就像你说的，地球是中心，地球上方有七颗行星，再往外是恒星天球，到了那里你才能真正重获自己的神性。

But, yes, you know, we have the Earth, the center, you have the seven planets above that, and then you have the sphere of the fixed stars beyond that, and that's where you truly reclaim your divinity

对的。

Mhmm.

或者至少开始真正地做到这一点。

Or at least begin to truly do so.

好的。

Okay.

至此，赫尔墨斯已经获得了这种被神圣启示的灵知、知识或智慧。

So at this point, Hermes has been given this gift of Gnosis or of knowledge or wisdom that has been divinely revealed to him.

然后他被告知，现在他的职责是走出去，将这种知识或智慧传递给那些配得上的人，以某种程度上帮助人类获得启蒙。

Then he's sort of told it's now your job to go out and share this and pass this knowledge or this wisdom along to others who deserve it in order to sort of like help enlighten humanity to some extent.

对吧？

Right?

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yep.

他被赋予了使命，由波埃修斯委托，去外出拯救人们。

He's given his commission as it were by poem Anders to go out and start saving people.

好的。

Okay.

这非常重要，因为它确立了赫尔墨斯主义的核心教义，即通过师徒传承的启示性智慧或知识（Gnosis）。

So this is really important because then it sets up this core doctrine of Hermeticism which is Gnosis or knowledge as revealed wisdom that is passed down from teacher to student.

‘Gnosis’ 是一个关键术语，我不确定我们是否应该更深入地探讨它是‘知识’，还是就保留为这种启示性的智慧。

And Gnosis is kind of an important word, so I'm not sure if we should dwell on that more in terms of knowledge or just leave it at that as this revealed wisdom.

这个词字面上确实意味着‘知识’，但‘知识’并不是一个很好的翻译。

So it does literally mean knowledge, but knowledge is not a great translation for it.

因为就像英语中‘爱’这个词有上百个希腊语对应词一样，你知道的。

Because there's different you know, we all know how there's like a 100 words in Greek for the word love in English.

比如有兄弟之爱、情欲之爱，还有那种神圣的爱，也就是‘agape’。

You know, there's brotherly love, there's erotic love, there's, you know, agape, you know, that kind of divine love.

我觉得在阅读这个译本时，不妨更广泛地说明一下：译者必须将某些词简化为单一的英文单词，而这些词实际上蕴含着十多种含义，只有读原文希腊语才能完全领会。

I mean, might be worth just stating more broadly or dwelling on that when we're reading this translation, for example, some of these words that the translator has to make a choice and just translate it as a single English word have like 10 different meanings and are kind of actually packed with other meanings that you don't fully get unless you're reading the Greek text.

是的，这确实是个问题。

Yeah, it's a problem.

翻译离不开解释。

You can't do translation without interpretation.

是的。

Yeah.

所以当你在赫尔墨斯文本中看到‘神智’或‘知识’时，它常常承载着许多含义，你需要深入体会。

So gnosis or knowledge, when you see that show up in a Hermetic text, sometimes that's packed with a lot of meanings that you really have to dwell on.

对。

Yeah.

还有‘episteme’，它更像你凭信仰接受的东西，只是从老师那里学到的内容。

So there's episteme, which is more like things you accept on faith, things you just learn from a teacher.

还有‘logos’，这是你通过推理逐步推导出来的东西。

There's logos, things you come up discursively, you're reason your way through them.

而‘gnosis’则不一定是启示性的，它更像对真理的体验性认知。

And then there's gnosis, which is not necessarily revealed, but it's more like experiential knowledge of the truth.

它不是光靠老师传授就能获得的东西。

Like, it's not something you can just learn from a teacher.

这不是你能靠推理就能轻易得出的东西。

It's not something you can just kinda deduce your way to.

这是一种你真正经历过的体验，就像真理的感质。

It's something you actually undergo, like the qualia of truth.

比如，我可以跟一个盲人谈论红色是什么感觉，但他们永远无法真正体验到红色。

Like, I could talk to a blind person about what the color red is like, but they'll never know to experience color red.

同样地，赫尔墨斯从波曼特雷斯那里获得的这种智慧，并不只是看到了这些事物。

In the same way, this gnosis that Hermes got from Poemantres, he didn't just see these things.

他在《医者之书》第一卷中将这些描述为一种隐喻。

He describes them in book one Corbus Medicum as, you know, a metaphor.

但更准确地说，他亲身经历了宇宙的创造。

But really, it's better to say that he experienced the creation of the cosmos.

他经历了波曼安德斯向他揭示的这种知识，而这正是它被称为智慧的原因。

He experienced this knowledge that was revealed to him by Poem Andres, and that's what makes it Gnosis.

好的。

Okay.

这非常重要，这也是赫尔墨斯主义的核心教义之一，而这种对知识或启示智慧的强调——那种深刻的、由师传徒的体认——成为我们识别其他赫尔墨斯文本的典型特征。

That's really important, and that's a core doctrine then of Hermeticism and that becomes somewhat characteristic of other Hermetic texts that allows us to identify other Hermetic texts is this focus on this knowledge or this revealed wisdom knowing, this deep sense of knowing that's been handed down from teacher to student.

于是赫尔墨斯本人以及整个对话的后续内容，都被设定为一位被赋予权柄的导师，他有责任走出去传播这种智慧，传承他所获得的启示知识。

And then Hermes then and the rest of the dialogue is then set up to be this teacher who's empowered to go out and spread this wisdom and pass down this knowledge of this revelation that he's had.

我来读一下，因为这部分在最近重读时特别有戏剧性，这挺有意思的。

Me read because this is the part where it gets really dramatic at this point when I was rereading it recently which is kind of interesting.

经文说：当他向我讲述这些时，波门德雷斯与诸力量合一了。

So it says, As he was saying this to me, Pomendre's joined with the powers.

随后，他在赐予我力量、教导我宇宙的本质与至高之见后，让我离去——而我已在向万有之父感恩并赞美他之后。

Then he sent me forth empowered and instructed on the nature of the universe and on the supreme vision after I had given thanks to the Father of all and praised him.

于是我开始向世人宣讲敬畏与知识的美。

And I began proclaiming to mankind the beauty of reverence and knowledge.

这个词又出现了：知识。

There's that word again, knowledge.

经文说：‘人们啊，生于大地者，你们这些沉溺于醉酒、沉溺于酣睡与对神的无知的人，清醒过来吧，结束你们的醉病，因为你们正被无理的沉睡所迷惑。’

And it says, quote, People, earth born men, you who have surrounded yourselves to drunkenness, who have surrendered yourselves to drunkenness and sleep and ignorance of God, make yourselves sober and end your drunken sickness for you are bewitched in unreasoning sleep.

众人听完后，都步调一致地围了过来，我便说道：凡胎俗子的人们啊，你们既然有权享有永生，为何要将自己交付给死亡呢？

When they heard, they gathered round with one accord and I said, why have you surrendered yourselves to death, earth born men, since you have the right to share in immortality?

你们曾与谬误同行，与愚昧为伴，此刻请清醒过来，逃离那昏昧的暗影，抛下腐朽，去分得永生的福祉吧。

You who have journeyed with error, who have partnered with ignorance, think again, escape the shadowy light, leave corruption behind and take a share in immortality.

那些早已将自己托付给死亡之路的人，反倒继续嘲讽一番便转身离去了，而那些渴望得到教诲的人，却纷纷俯伏在我的脚前。

Some of them who had surrendered themselves to the way of death resumed their mocking and withdrew, while those who had desired to be taught cast themselves at my feet.

我将他们一一扶起，从此成为我族人的领路人，向他们传授得救的道理，以及该如何才能获得拯救。

Having made them rise, I became guide to my race, teaching them the words how to be saved and in what manner.

我将智慧的种子播撒在他们之中，他们以仙露为食，得以滋养成长。

And I sowed the words of wisdom among them and they were nourished from the ambrosial water.

当夜幕降临，阳光彻底消退后，我吩咐众人向上帝感恩；待所有人都完成祷告，便各自回房安歇了。

When evening came and the sun's light began to disappear entirely, I commanded them to give thanks to God and when each completed the thanksgiving, he turned to his own bed.

我将波曼德雷斯的恩惠铭刻在心底，内心满是欢喜——我终于得偿所愿，肉体的沉睡换来了灵魂的清醒。

Within myself, I recorded the kindness of Poimandres and I was deeply happy because I was filled with what I wished for the sleep of my body became sobriety of soul.

我双眼的闭合，迎来了真正的异象。

The closing of my eyes became true vision.

我的沉默孕育了善，话语的诞生成为善的后代。

My silence became pregnant with good and the birthing of the word became a progeny of goods.

这发生在我身上，是因为我接纳了波曼德雷斯的心智，即至高权柄之言。

This happened to me because I was receptive of mind of poemandres, that is the word of sovereignty.

我已受神圣真理之息的感召而至。

I have arrived inspired with the divine breath of truth.

因此，我从灵魂深处、用尽全力向天父赞美上帝。

Therefore, I give praise to God, the Father from my soul and with all my might.

接着，有一系列简短的语句说：圣哉，上帝，万有的父。

And then it has this sort of set of short lines that says, Holy is God, the father of all.

圣哉，上帝，祂的旨意由祂自己的权能成就。

Holy is God whose counsel is done by his own powers.

圣哉，上帝，祂渴望被认识，并由祂自己的子民所认识。

Holy is God who wishes to be known and is known by his own people.

圣哉，你，藉着话语创造了万物。

Holy are you who by the word have constituted all things that are.

你是神圣的，万物皆以你的形象诞生。

Holy are you from whom all nature was born as image.

你是神圣的，没有任何造物能与你相似。

Holy are you of whom nature has not made a like figure.

你是神圣的，超越一切力量。

Holy are you who are stronger than every power.

你是神圣的，超越一切卓越。

Holy are you who surpass every excellence.

你是神圣的，胜过一切赞颂。

Holy are you mightier than praises.

我们以沉默向你呼求，那不可言说、不可言传者，从心灵与灵魂中献上纯净的言语祭品，直抵你面前。

You whom we address in silence, the unspeakable, the unsayable, pure speech offerings from a heart and soul that reach up to you.

求你垂允我的祈求，勿使我错失那有益于我们本质的知识。

Grant my request not to fail in the knowledge that benefits our essence.

赐予我力量，借着这份恩赐，我将启迪那些处于无知中的人，我种族的兄弟，却是你的子民。

Give me power and with this gift, shall enlighten those who are in ignorance, brothers of my race, but your sons.

因此，我信，并作见证。

Thus I believe and I bear witness.

我迈向生命与光明。

I advance to life and light.

蒙福的啊，父亲。

Blessed are you, father.

凡属你的人，因你赐予他全权，渴望参与你的圣化之工。

He who is your man wishes to join you in the work of sanctification since you have provided him all authority.

我知道这段话很长，内容也很丰富，尤其是它只是庞大背景中的一部分。

So that was really extensive and a long thing to read, I realize, and especially part of a ton of context.

但它相当重要，因为它为赫尔墨斯主义的其余内容奠定了基础：我们已看到赫尔墨斯领受了这神圣启示，而他的目标便是走出去，教导它、传承它、与世人分享，帮助人们理解自己神圣的起源，明白在某种意义上他们并不属于这个世界。

But it's kind of important because that sets up everything else in Hermeticism, is we have seen Hermes receive this divine revelation and then his goal then is to go out and to teach it and to pass it forward and to share it with the world and to help people to understand their divine origins and that they are not of this world in some sense.

是的。

Yes.

这清楚地表明，赫尔墨斯主义的核心动力是灵魂的救赎。

This really points out that the central impulse of Hermeticism is salvation of the soul.

很多人可能只是因为想听听赫尔墨斯念的那段祷告才关注你的。

A lot of people might just be tuning in just to you know, see that prayer that Hermes recited.

你知道，听起来真的很基督教。

You know, like, it sounds really Christian.

听起来非常像亚伯拉罕宗教，确实也差不多是。

It sounds really like Abrahamic, and it kind of is.

它常被称为三圣颂，就像以赛亚书中的‘圣哉，圣哉，圣哉，主是万有的主’。

You know, it's been called a Trisogian in many ways, like the Trisogian of Isaiah, you know, holy holy holy is the Lord.

正如第一卷所奠定的，整个赫尔墨斯主义的核心，就是通过认识作为万物与我们自身创造者的上帝，来教导拯救灵魂的方法。

It's very much like, the whole Hermeticism, and as book one sets up, is about teaching a way to save the soul through the Gnosis of God as the creator of all things and of ourselves as a creator in creation.

赫尔墨斯主义中的其他一切，其实都建立在这个核心动力之上。

And everything else in Hermeticism really builds on that one impulse.

当然，还有德尔斐的箴言：认识你自己。

You know, there's, of course, the Delphic maxim, know thyself.

那么，为什么这一点如此重要？

Well, why is that so important?

因为如果你了解自己，你就了解周围的一切。

Because if you know yourself, you know everything around you.

如果你了解周围的一切，你就知道它们的来源。

If you know everything around you, you know where it comes from.

你知道自己从何而来。

You know where you come from.

你知道一切是如何相互联系的。

You know how everything is tied together.

如果你知道自己的来源，你也知道自己该去往何处。

And if you know where you come from, you also know where you need to go.

是的。

Right.

这说得通。

That makes sense.

因此，《赫尔墨斯文集》中后续的文本通常是赫尔墨斯与后续学生如阿斯克勒庇俄斯或其他人物之间的对话，这些人物后来也成为教师，比如阿斯克勒庇俄斯自己也成为教师，并将知识传递给其他学生。

Then subsequent texts in the Corpus Hermeticum are often then dialogues between Hermes and subsequent students like Asclepius or other figures who then become teachers like Asclepius becomes a teacher himself and then passes on the knowledge to other students.

因此，这种对话形式以及师徒之间传递关于宇宙真实本质的知识，成为大多数赫尔墨斯文本中反复出现的主题。

And so this dialogue format and this teacher student passing revealed knowledge down about the true nature of the cosmos becomes a recurring theme throughout most Hermetic texts.

是的。

Yeah.

而且这不仅仅是被揭示的知识本身，这更多是‘episteme’（理论知识），而非‘gnosis’（直接体悟）。

And it's not just revealed knowledge itself, and this would be more episteme as opposed to gnosis.

你知道，这更像是把通往体悟的钥匙交到你手中。

You know, it's more like handing the keys to gnosis over.

你知道，episteme的目标、episteme的意义——这种被传授的知识，而非亲身体验的知识——是为了打下基础，提供一个框架，设定相应的预期。

You know, it's the goal of episteme, the purpose of episteme, you know, that kind of taught knowledge as opposed to experienced knowledge, is to build a foundation, you know, give a framework, you know, set expectations as it were.

在这个框架和预期之内，学生才能开展工作，进入不同的意识状态，进行仪式实践、神术等等，从而亲身体验这种知识，获得真正的‘Gnosis’。

And within that framework and set expectations, then the student can then do the work of, you know, entering into altered states of, you know, awareness, you know, ritual work, theurgy, and so forth to then experience that knowledge to get the Gnosis.

所以，在赫尔墨斯文本的多个地方，都反复提到类似这样的说法：我不能说出这些事。

So, like, at multiple points about the Hermetic text, there's this repeated notion that, like, I can't say these things.

我无法言说真理是什么，因为无论我说什么，都不可能是真正的真理。

Like, I can't speak what truth is because no matter what I say, it's not going to be true.

你必须亲自体验真理，赫尔墨斯所做的只是指明通往真理的道路。

You have to experience the truth for yourself, And all Hermes does is just show the way to do that.

对。

Right.

这让我想起我做笔记时写下的一个段落，那是我在准备这次对话时从尼古拉·邓西·刘易斯的《诺斯替主义导论》中摘录的。她曾谈到你之前提到的，这实际上关乎救赎，是一套具有救赎性质的宗教文本，其中有一节标题为‘知识作为通往救赎之路’。

And that makes me think of this passage I wrote down when I was taking notes in preparation for this from Nicola Densey Lewis in her book Introduction to Gnosticism at one point talking about what you were referring to earlier that this is kind of about salvation and it's a salvific sort of religious set of texts has this section titled Knowledge as a Path to Salvation.

她说：赫尔墨斯文献一贯呈现教师指导学生的模式，这证明了阅读这些文献的人深信：通过人类教师传承的知识至关重要，彻底掌握这种知识，并将其发展为一种救赎形式。

And she says, The very fact that the Hermetica consistently feature a teacher instructing a student is witness to the fact that those who read the Hermetica were convinced of the importance of knowledge passed down through a human teacher, the acquisition of this knowledge in its fullest form and the development of this knowledge as a form of salvation.

实现救赎最重要的，是获得知识，尤其是关于宇宙如何运行以及它如何反映神之良善的知识。

The most important thing to bring salvation is acquiring knowledge especially concerning how the cosmos works and how it mirrors God's goodness.

我认为，这正是占星术重要性的部分所在，也是为什么占星术在赫尔墨斯主义中反复出现——在哲学类赫尔墨斯文本中如此，在其他我们归为‘技术性赫尔墨斯文本’的文献中也同样如此。这些技术性文本是关于占星术、炼金术及其他秘术主题的实用文献，它们也探讨理解宇宙的本质，以及更深入地认识世界运行的规律。

Therein I think lies part of the importance of astrology and why astrology is one of the things that actually recurs as a somewhat frequent motif in Hermeticism to a certain extent in the philosophical Hermetica, but then also in other Hermetic texts that we associate with what scholars sometimes call the technical Hermetica, which are practical texts on astrology, alchemy, and other sort of topics like that of sort of esoteric or occult knowledge are more practical texts that talk about also understanding the nature of the cosmos and having some deeper understanding of how the world works.

是的。

Yes.

在几段斯多葛学派的残篇中，有一种关于事物如何生成的高层次框架。

In a couple of the Stoibain fragments, there's this notion of how things come to be in a very high level framework.

这里有一种关于天命、神的意志和神所希望发生之事的概念。

There's this notion of providence, the mind and will of God, what God wants to happen.

服务于天命的是必然性，它确保神所希望发生的事情保持一致和规律。

What serves providence is necessity, kind of ensuring that what God wants to happen is consistent, regular.

如果我把一样东西抛向空中，它必须落回地面，才能保持一致性。

If I throw something up the air, it has to fall back down in order to be consistent.

我不可能把一样东西抛向空中，它却一直停留在那里。

I can't throw something up the air and it stays there.

服务于必然性的是命运。

Serving necessity is fate.

现在我们知道神想要什么，也知道为了实现这一点必须发生什么，命运便设计出一套机制，使事物以符合必然性的方式实现天命。

You know, now we know what God wants and now we know what needs to happen to accommodate that, fate sets up the design for things to happen in such a way that fulfills providence in a way consistent with necessity.

而服务于命运的，正是行星本身及其各种运动和运转，它们协调自身的能量，推动并引导着下方世界的事物。

And then what serves fate is the planets themselves and their many motions of revolutions, how they coordinate their energies, impel and coordinate certain things down here.

因此，如果你仔细仰望星空，能够将天象与地上的事件相互关联，你便能窥见神的意志。

So by looking up at the stars, if you look hard enough and you can kind of correlate how things happen down here or what happens up there, you can essentially peer into the mind of God.

这简直是个很大的说法。

Like, that's kind like, it's a big claim.

这本质上就是占星术在做的事情。

Like, that's fundamentally what you're doing with astrology.

是的，你在观察这里发生的事情，以及将来会发生什么。

Like, yes, you're seeing how things happen down here, what will happen down here.

但如果你从更宏观的角度来看，你就能理解为什么这里会发生这些事，为什么上帝希望某些事情在这里发生。

But if you take a bigger view of that, you could see why things happen down here and why God wants certain things to happen down here.

这就是占星术在赫尔墨斯主义中如此重要的原因，因为你能够了解上帝的设计，进而了解我们自身的构造——是什么驱动着我们，我们在宇宙中的角色，以及我们需要扮演的角色。

And that's kind of why astrology is so important for Hermeticism, because you get to learn the design of God and therefore our design, what makes us tick, what our role is in the cosmos, what role we need to play.

然后，通过顺应这个角色，尽我们所能去履行它，以完成我们的使命，最终谢幕离场。

And then by playing along with that role, how we get to play that role to the best of our ability to fulfill what we need to do so we can finish our role and just leave the stage.

对。

Right.

因此，通过观察或思考占星术，实际上是在让你洞察宇宙的内在运作。

So it's like letting you In looking at or contemplating astrology, it's allowing you to contemplate the inner workings of the cosmos.

正因为这种从我们自身、行星、命运、必然性，一直到天意，最终回归上帝或源头的存在链条，通过反思和洞察命运的内在运作，我们能更好地理解宇宙中固有的整体计划或天意。

And because of that chain of being on those different levels of us, planets, fate, necessity, all the way up to providence and then eventually back to God or back to the source by being able to contemplate and see the inner workings of fate, understand better the sort of overall plan or providence that's inherent in the cosmos in some way.

而通过理解自己在其中的个人角色和部分，你能获得更深层的神圣洞见，或以某种方式将宇宙的宏大运作个性化。

But also in understanding your own personal role in that and your own personal part in that gives you some greater divine insight or some way to personalize the sort of broad workings of the cosmos.

是的，基本上是这样。

Yeah, Basically.

我的意思是，这种想法与斯多葛学派的整个观念密切相关。

I mean, this kind of like the whole Stoic notions come into play.

你知道，什么是命运？

You know, what is fate?

那么，为了顺应你的命运，你需要做些什么？

And then what do you need to do in order to go along with your fate?

你知道，那首祷告词，我想是克里安提斯写的？

You know, that one kind of prayer by I think it's Cleanthes?

我想是克里安提斯，但我不是很确定。

I think it's Cleanthes, I'm not entirely sure.

或者是克律西波斯，那位我们所知甚少的斯多葛派重要哲学家。

Or Chrysippus, one of the big Stoic philosophers from whom we have very little surviving.

但有一段祷文，我在艰难时刻会默念给自己听。

But there's this kind of one prayer I recite to myself during hard times.

宙斯啊，神圣的命运，请引领我前往我应处之地与生命之战所指之处，我将追随。

Lead me, O Zeus, holy destiny, to wherever my post and life's battle be willing, I follow.

若非我自愿，我仍将悲惨地被迫追随。

Were it not my will, wicked and wretched would I follow still.

你别无选择，只能顺从你的命运。

You you can't but go along with your fate.

无论如何，你的命运终将发生。

One way or the other, your fate's going happen.

关键在于你如何应对它。

It's just on you to determine how you react to it.

因此，一旦你明白了你的角色，你就必须对自己负责，对你在宇宙中的角色负责，并尽你所能去活出它。

And so once you learn your role, then it's on you to be responsible for yourself, to be responsible for your role in the cosmos and live it up to the best you possibly can.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

因为归根结底，宇宙存在着一个至善的天意安排。

Because ultimately, has a providential design which is good.

再回到斯多葛学派的观点，我想这个理念的核心是：每一个事件都有其前因与后果——任何事情的发生，都有先于它存在的因素促成了它的出现。

Going back to the Stoics, I guess at the core of that is the notion that each event has a prior cause and outcome that happens when something happens, there was something before it that led to that.

也就是说，如果你顺着这条因果链一路追溯，它最终会指向整个宇宙的最初起点。

That if you follow that chain of causation all the way back, it goes back to the very beginning of the entire cosmos.

所以他们有这样一种观念：存在着某种在一定意义上预先安排好、命中注定的事件序列。而且因为他们认为宇宙在某种层面上具有神性，所以这个事件序列从根本上来说是好的。哪怕我们主观上并不偏好宇宙中发生的某些事，或是在某些个人生活的事件里主观上过得并不顺心，这些经历终究会汇入某个更宏大的事件序列、或是某个更宏大的计划之中——这个计划有其意义，有其发展方向，最终会通向美好。

So there's this notion that there's a sequence of events that is sort of pre ordered or pre ordained in some sense, but because they believed that the cosmos was sort of divine in some sense that this sequence of events was ultimately good and that whatever happens in the cosmos even if we subjectively don't prefer it or we don't enjoy the experience subjectively in some instances in terms of the events that occur in our individual lives, that somehow that plays into some broader sequence of events or some broader plan that has a purpose and has an important that's going somewhere that's good ultimately.

所以说，哪怕我们主观上不喜欢、不接受某件事，我们最终也应该找到办法接纳它，因为这一切都是为了

And therefore, even if we don't like it or prefer it subjectively, we should ultimately find a way to become okay with it because it's for the

从某种意义上来说，是为了更大的善。

greater good in some sense.

当然。

Absolutely.

我想强调的是，赫尔墨斯主义不是斯多葛主义。

And I wanna emphasize that Hermeticism is not Stoicism.

赫尔墨斯主义中有许多内容是斯多葛主义者会直接嘲笑的。

Like, there's a lot in Hermeticism that Stoics would outright laugh at.

但当你查阅像基拉蒙或梅内托这样的古埃及祭司的历史记录时，你会发现他们被描述为斯多葛主义者。

But when you look at records of contemporary Egyptian priests like Chiramon or Menetho, you know, from historical records, you see these notions that they were described as Stoics.

现在，他们可能确实研究并宣扬过作为希腊化哲学的斯多葛主义，同时身为埃及人和埃及祭司，但一些学者现在认为，这与其说是他们研究希腊哲学的体现，不如说更反映了古埃及人对这些观念的整体看法，只是恰好与我们所认为的斯多葛主义相吻合。

Now it may well be that they may have actually studied and professed Stoicism as a Hellenistic philosophy while being Egyptian, while being Egyptian priests, but some scholars now think that that's not so much an indication of how they studied Hellenic philosophy, but might be more of a reflection of the overall Egyptian view towards these things, and that they just happen to align with what we would consider to be Stoicism.

因此，赫尔墨斯主义中也包含大量柏拉图主义的成分。

So Hermeticism also has a lot of Platonism in it as well.

在某些方面，我更喜欢把赫尔墨斯主义看作是‘斯多葛主义加一’。

And in some regards, I kinda like seeing Hermeticism as Stoicism plus one.

是的，它包含了斯多葛主义者所说的一切，但你把上帝再推远了一点。

Like, yeah, it's everything that Stoics said, but you put God one little further out.

嗯嗯。

Mhmm.

好的。

Okay.

你知道吗，如果你回到《赫尔墨斯文集》第一卷的开头，上帝创造了逻各斯，即上帝的话语，而它本质上创造了宇宙。

You know, if you turn back to the beginning of, you know, book one, the Corpus Hermeticum, you know, God made the logos, the word of God, which then essentially made the cosmos.

因此，宇宙在许多方面就是逻各斯，这与斯多葛主义完全一致。

So the cosmos is logos in many ways, and that's right in line with Stoicism.

但赫尔墨斯主义还进一步指出，上帝超越宇宙，这一点更接近柏拉图主义。

But then Hermeticism still goes on to say that God lies beyond the cosmos, and that's more Platonism at that point.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为在《赫尔墨斯文集》第一卷中提到，上帝像一位工匠或造物主那样创造，正是这位造物主创造了宇宙，所以你才说在赫尔墨斯主义的视角下，宇宙本质上是远离上帝的一步之遥吗？

I think in Corpus Hermeticum one, it says that God creates like a craftsman or a demiurge figure who is then the one that creates the cosmos and that's why you're saying that the cosmos is one removed from God essentially in a Hermetic approach?

是的。

Yeah.

嗯。

Mhmm.

好的。

Okay.

而对于斯多葛学派来说，宇宙就是神，整个宇宙是一个活生生的实体，它拥有一个身体，即我们能看到的物质世界，以及一个贯穿其中的灵魂？

Whereas for the Stoics, the cosmos is God and the entire cosmos is this living entity that has a body which is the physical world we can see and then a soul that's infused throughout it?

逻各斯，是的。

The logos, yeah.

好的。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

但这很重要，因为他们可能从斯多葛学派那里继承了某种命运观念，某种程度上将命运与必然性联系起来，并将这种必然性与行星和占星术联系在一起。

But that's important because they are taking over from perhaps the Stoics possibly some notion of fate to some extent and fate and this focus on fate and predetermination to a certain extent and that being tied into the planets and being tied into astrology.

但赫尔墨斯主义中还有一个非常重要的内在焦点，那就是自我认知，了解自己，明白自己在宇宙中的位置，以及洞悉宇宙的内在运作。

But there's also an inherent focus in Hermeticism that's really important on self knowledge and of knowing yourself and knowing your place in the cosmos and knowing the inner workings of the cosmos.

我认为这正是使赫尔墨斯主义非常适配占星术的一点，因为占星术不仅是了解宇宙内在运作的手段，也是发展自我认知、从而以符合赫尔墨斯理想的方式行事的关键途径。

I think that's one thing that really sets it up as being very amenable to astrology then as one of the means of not just knowing the inner workings of the cosmos, but also in terms of developing self knowledge and the ability to have self knowledge in order to of comport yourself in a way that's appropriate to the Hermetic ideal.

是的，完全正确。

Yeah, absolutely.

所以，这也是我们从哲学性的赫尔墨斯文献转向技术性赫尔墨斯文献的地方。

So this is also kind of where we depart from the philosophical Hermetica and get to the technical Hermetica.

我们能不能快速解释一下这个区别？

Why don't we explain that distinction real quick?

《赫尔墨斯文集》属于我们所说的哲学性赫尔墨斯文献。

So the Corpus Hermeticum is what we consider to belong to the quote philosophical Hermetica.

这些赫尔墨斯文本探讨的是哲学、宗教、灵性——不是现代意义上的，而是古典字面意义上的，比如神智学，即对神圣智慧的追求。

The Hermetic texts that talk about philosophy, religion, spirituality, you know, not in the modern sense, but in the classical literal sense, theosophy, you know, wisdom of the divine.

马尔西利奥·费奇诺所专注的《赫尔墨斯文集》拉丁文版、斯克莱皮乌斯的版本，主要就是这类哲学内容，还有斯托比乌斯选集中保存的赫尔墨斯文本片段，基本上都被视为哲学性或理论性的。

And it's what, you know, Marcelloic Ficino focused on with the Corpus Hermeticum, you know, the Latinus, Sklepius, it's largely about this kind of philosophical stuff, the Stoibine fragments, you know, the excerpts of Hermetic texts preserved by John of Stoeby in his anthology, you know, largely all what we consider philosophical or theoretical.

而与此相对的是技术性或实践性的赫尔墨斯文献，也就是那些现代学术界不太愿意碰的‘神秘’内容。

And this is often contrasted with the technical or practical Hermetica, which is, you know, the spooky stuff that, you know, modern academia doesn't like touching.

你知道的，比如纸莎草纸上的希腊魔法、炼金术、占星文本，还有那些讲述如何安放雕像或复活死人的文献，比如为十天神制作魔法戒指、通过向特定神灵献祭并配合特定的星象来治愈各种身体疾病、向特定植物献祭等等。

You know, the Greek magic of papyri, alchemy, astrological texts, you know, texts that talk about how to install statues or how to raise the dead, you know, all the stuff about, know, making enchanted rings for the decans, you know, how to cure people and their various physical maladies by, you know, making certain offerings to certain gods and their certain astrological alignments, you know, making certain sacrifices to certain plants.

所有这些都属于技术性赫尔墨斯文献。

All that is considered technical Hermetica.

而这一点有时会变得有趣且充满争议。

And that's where it gets interesting and conflicting at times.

没错。

Right.

但需要强调的是，除了大量以赫尔墨斯与学生对话、传授哲学或宗教知识为主的文献外，

But it's an important point that just in addition to this large collection of more, let's say, philosophical or religious texts that feature Hermes having a dialogue and passing knowledge down to various students of a philosophical or religious nature.

在古代世界中，还同时存在一些希腊语文本，其中赫尔墨斯将占星术等实用知识传授给不同的学生，而赫尔墨斯的弟子如阿斯克勒庇俄斯，又将知识传给后续的学生，比如格尼普索和帕塔西里斯。

There's also in ancient world contemporaneous with that Greek texts that were written that featured Hermes passing practical knowledge of astrology down to different students and then different students of Hermes like Asclepius passing knowledge down to other subsequent students like Gnicepso and Patasiris.

因此，这就形成了另一批大致同时期的文献，它们也被归为赫尔墨斯文献，因为它们具有相似的风格——赫尔墨斯与其他导师将知识传授给学生，但这些知识并非哲学性的，而是更专注于占星术、炼金术、魔法等具体的技术性内容。

And so this creates a whole other range of texts that are roughly contemporaneous which also are sort of labeled Hermetic because they're given the same sensibility featuring Hermes and different teachers passing knowledge to students, but this knowledge is less philosophical instead it's more directed towards specific technical matters like astrology or alchemy or magic or things like that.

是的。

Yeah.

长期以来，许多学者和学术界人士认为，哲学类内容——也就是适合学者讨论的‘正统’内容——与技术类内容之间存在着明确而牢固的界限，后者被视为非法、魔法且迷信的，两者永远无法相容。

And for a long time, a lot of scholars and academic people believe that there's basically a firm solid boundary between philosophical stuff, you know, the good stuff for academics and scholars to talk about versus the technical stuff, which is illicit and magical and therefore superstitious and never the twain shall meet.

后来我们发现了南汉马迪文献集，其中包含了第八和第九篇对话，这是一篇典型的仪式文本。

And then we got the Nankhamadhi collection, which had discourse eighth and ninth, which is very much a ritual text.

它基本上建立在《赫尔墨斯文集》第一篇所描述的宇宙观之上，并且实际使用了巴布拉的咒语力量。

Like, it's basically built on the same cosmology that's built on in Corpus Hermeticum one, and it actually uses Barbara's words of power.

它描述了一种精神提升与升华的仪式，这不仅仅是对灵魂经历的描述，而是一个真实的仪式，包含祷告、召唤和一系列步骤，完全具备技术性文本的特征。

It describes a ritual of spiritual elevation and ascent, an actual ritual, not just a description of what happens to the soul, but an actual ritual with invocations and prayers and process that has all the hallmarks of being a technical text.

当这篇文本被发现时，它彻底颠覆了当时关于赫尔墨斯主义的大量既有学术观点，因为学者们原本以为，赫尔墨斯主义不过是一个主要源于希腊的哲学运动，只是披上了埃及式的神秘外衣，本质上仍是通俗的希腊哲学。

And that one text kinda blew up a lot of existing scholarship and scholarly opinions about Hermeticism back when it was discovered because they thought, oh, you had this mostly Hellenic philosophical movement that had some Egyptian window dressing on to make it seem mystical, but it was basically just popular Greek philosophy.

而这篇魔法文本却发生在相同的语境中，由相同的人物进行，目的是实际地完成某种行动，这提供了一个极其迷人且独特的视角。

And then you had this magical text that takes place in the same setting with the same people to actually do something, and it's a fascinating text and perspective from that perspective.

因此，实践性与哲学性、技术性与理论性之间，其实并没有那么明显的界限。

And that's why there's really not so much of a distinction between practical and philosophical or technical and theoretical.

它们实际上是相辅相成的。

Like, they both go hand in hand.

当然。

Sure.

所以确实如此。

So there Yeah.

因此，在某些文本中，技术与实践事务和哲学事务之间的区别可能没那么明显。

So it's like there may have been less distinction in some text between technical and practical matters versus philosophical ones.

有时你会看到两者之间的交叉，比如在《纳格·哈马迪文库》中《第八与第九篇对话》这样的哲学文本里，结尾会给出一些具体的技术指导。我对此感到非常有趣的是，它先传授教义，然后在最后说：‘我要你把这些教义写下来，并刻在某种特定的东西上。’

Sometimes you'll see an interchange between the two where in a philosophical text there will be some specific technical instructions like at the end of the discourse on the eighth and the ninth from the Nag Hammadi text, one of the things I found really interesting about it is it gives the teaching and then at the end it says, and then I want you to write these teachings down and inscribe them on a specific thing.

接着它给出了择日占星的规则。

And then it gives electional astrology rules.

它告诉你何时进行，还说：‘当我在处女座时，我，赫尔墨斯，会这样做。’

It tells you when to do this and it says, Do it when I, Hermes, am in the sign of Virgo.

我认为它还提到了‘偕日升’或‘偕日落’之类的天文现象，这实际上与公元一世纪纯粹实用的技术手册——西顿的多罗修斯所著的择日占星手册——中的择日规则非常相似。

And I think it says making a helical rising or a helical setting or something like that, which is actually very similar to some electional rules in Dorotheus of Sidon, which is a purely practical technical manual on electional astrology from the first century.

因此，我们可以看到，在一些赫尔墨斯主义的哲学宗教文本中，非商品化的占星规则已被整合进其教义之中。

So we can see in some of the Hermetic philosophical religious texts like from non commodity astrological rules being integrated into them as part of the doctrine.

没错。

Exactly.

我们喜欢把高尚的东西和低俗的技术性东西区分开来，但其实这种区分从来就不存在。

We like to draw a distinction between the high minded stuff versus the technical, the low minded stuff, but there never really was this distinction.

它们是相辅相成的。

They work together.

当然。

Sure.

而且说实话，这确实有点复杂，因为有时候实用文本更偏向实践，对哲学推理的阐述非常简略，你得从非常简短的段落中自行推断出哲学内涵。

And I mean, there was sometimes You know, it it is tricky because sometimes there are the practical text can have more of a practical bent and can be a little bit sparse on giving you the philosophical reasoning so that you have to infer the philosophy from very brief passages.

比如在占星文本中，我们常常面临这样的问题：它们主要教你如何操作，如何解读星盘、如何进行占星，却很少关注整体的哲学框架。

This is often something that we struggle with with the astrological text for example, that it focuses on teaching you how to do this, how to read charts and how to do astrology and doesn't usually focus as much on the overarching philosophical framework.

同样，在一些哲学性的赫尔墨斯文献中，更侧重于整体哲学，有时却不像我们希望的那样深入实践细节。

And similarly in some of the philosophical Hermetica, there is more of a focus on the overarching philosophy and sometimes doesn't go into the practical stuff as much as we would like.

也许我们还能理解这种区分是如何形成的，但这种区分可能并没有现代学者通过人为划分这两类所呈现的那样严格或鲜明。

It's like there's still maybe some understanding of why that distinction came about, but it just may not be as strict or as stark as some modern scholars have made it look like by creating those two categories.

没错。

Exactly.

你知道吗，就像你见过那个梗图，飞机上全是密密麻麻的弹孔，人们就会说，哦，我们需要加固那些有弹孔的地方。

You know, like you've seen the meme of, you know, the airplane with all the bullet holes that are so churned, and people you're like, oh, well, we need to reinforce, you know, the parts of the plane that have these bullet holes on it.

不对。

No.

那些有弹孔的飞机，其实是成功返航的。

Those are the planes that actually made it back with those bullet holes.

你需要加固的是那些没有弹孔的地方。

You need to reinforce the parts that don't have bullet holes.

同样地，我们所拥有的，只是那些经受住时间之刃和编辑之笔幸存下来的东西。

In much the same way, we only have what survives the knife of time and the redactor's pen.

你知道，《赫尔墨斯文集》是17本书的合集，这些书是在拜占庭时期被编纂成册的。

You know, the the Corpus Hermeticum is a collection of 17 books that happened to be compiled during the Byzantine time during Byzantine era.

你知道，历史上写过的赫尔墨斯文本远比今天幸存下来的要多得多。

You know, there are many more Hermetic texts that were written than what survived today.

而在幸存下来的这些文本中，我们可能开始需要思考：为什么它们能幸存下来？

And of the ones that survived, we probably start to need to think about, you know, why did they survive?

为什么这些文本被选中收录进某些典籍，而其他文本却没有？

Why were these ones chosen to be preserved in certain collections versus other ones that didn't?

至于那些未能幸存的文本，有时我们也会走运。

And of the ones that didn't survive, well, sometimes we get lucky.

我们会发现一些纸莎草文献的藏品，比如希腊魔法纸莎草、死海古卷或纳格·哈马迪文库，它们确实保存了一些填补了我们知识空白的文本——这些空白原本我们只能靠推测来想象。

We find a cache of papyri, you know, like the Greek magic papyri or the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Nag Hammadi collections, that actually do preserve some of these texts that kind of fill in holes in our knowledge that we can only otherwise presume about what existed.

另外，既然你提到了教义，纳格·哈马迪文库中发现的《第八与第九篇对话》就是一篇赫尔墨斯文本。我一个重要的发现是，有一位名叫乔安娜·卡马罗夫斯卡的学者，她在2004年左右出版了一本名为《安条克的维提乌斯·瓦伦斯与学术专著》的书，探讨了公元二世纪的占星家维提乌斯·瓦伦斯。

So one of the things additionally since you mentioned doctrine, the discourse on the eighth and ninth that was the Hermetic text found in the Nag Hammadi library, One of my big discoveries is there had been a scholar named Joanna Kalmarowska who in 2004 I believe published a book titled Vettius Valens of Antioch and Intellectual Monography which was a treatment of the second century astrologer Vettius Valens.

她指出，瓦伦斯的哲学中带有一些斯多葛派，尤其是赫尔墨斯派的影响。

And one of the things that she drew out was how he had some stoic but especially some Hermetic influences on his philosophy.

特别是，书中有三处段落尤为突出：在瓦伦斯的《实用占星手册》选集中，他三次要求读者发誓保守这些教义的秘密，不得向无知者或未入门者透露。

And specifically, there were these three passages especially which were these three times in the anthology in his Practical Astrological Manuals where Valens makes the reader swear an oath to keep the teaching secret and to not share them with the unlearned or the uninitiated.

卡马罗夫斯卡推测，这三段文字如此程式化，以至于她怀疑瓦伦斯可能是从某个潜在的赫尔墨斯文献中借鉴了这些内容。

And Kamarowska speculated that these three passages were so formulaic that she kind of suspected that Valens might be getting them from another possibly Hermetic source.

让我快速读一下。

And let me actually read it really quickly.

这段文字出自我的书。

So this is from my book.

这段摘录自我的著作《希腊化占星术》中对瓦伦斯的译文。

This is excerpted from my book Hellenistic Astrology in a translation of Valens.

文中写道：瓦伦斯说，关于这本书，我必须首先为所有偶然遇到它的人设定一个誓言，让他们守护所写的内容，并以符合神秘传统的方式保守它。

So it says, Valens says, Concerning this book then, I must before all prescribe an oath for those who happen to encounter it that they may keep watch over what is written and withhold it in a manner appropriate to the mysteries.

我以太阳的神圣周期、月亮的不规则运行、其他星辰的力量以及十二黄道星座的圆环起誓，要求你们保守这些秘密，不可传授给无知者或未入门者，并要向传授这些知识的人致以敬意与纪念。

I adjure them by the sacred cycle of the Sun and the irregular courses of the Moon and by the powers of the remaining stars and the circle of the 12 zodiacal signs to keep these things secret and to not impart them to the unlearned or the uninitiated and to give a portion of honor and remembrance to him who introduced them.

遵守此誓言者将得福，上述诸神将与他们的愿望一致；而违背誓言者，则将遭遇相反的命运。

May it go well for those who keep this oath and may the aforementioned gods be in accord with their wishes, but may the opposite be the case for those who forswear this oath.

这个誓言在书中出现了三次，有趣的是，我后来发现了一个平行文本，当时我非常兴奋——多年后，当我阅读《论第八与第九》时，发现其结尾处有一段非常相似的誓言，这让我怀疑瓦伦斯的这段文字可能源自赫尔墨斯文本。

This oath shows up like three different times and what's interesting is I actually found a parallel and I was really excited and I found it years later when I discovered and was reading through the discourse on the eighth and the ninth, it has a very similar oath passage towards the very end of it that I thought may actually confirm Kamaraska's speculation that Valens' passage came from Hermetic text.

这是在《论第八与第九》的结尾处，它也给出了类似的誓言：我以天、地、火、水、七位物质的统治者、其中的创造之灵、无始之神、自生者与被生者起誓，要求你们守护赫尔墨斯所传达的内容。

This is at the end of the discourse on the eighth and the ninth and it gives a similar oath where it says, I adjure you who will read this holy book by heaven and earth and fire and water and seven rulers of substance and the creative spirit in them and the unbegotten God and the self begotten and the begotten that you guard what Hermes has communicated.

上帝将与遵守誓言的人以及我们所提及的所有人同在，但每一位神明的愤怒都将降临在违背誓言的人身上。

God will be at one with those who keep the oath and everyone we have named, but the wrath of each of them will come upon those who violate the oath.

现在，我意识到在誓言这类事情上，某些表达方式在一定程度上是相似的。

Now, I realize that there's a certain in terms of oaths and things like that, there's going to be similar formulas to a certain extent.

但我只是觉得这种相似性很有趣，或许能证实卡马尔斯基的推测，即瓦伦斯在撰写誓言段落时借鉴了更早的赫尔墨斯文本，因此可能存在一些相似之处。

But I just thought it was an interesting similarity that might confirm Kamaraska's speculation that Valens was drawing on some earlier Hermetic text in getting his oath passages and there might be some similarity as a result of that.

这完全有可能。

It's totally possible.

我的意思是，你甚至在《赫尔墨斯文集》第十三卷中也能看到一种虽未明确称为誓言、但内容相似的表述。

I mean, you even see a similar not explicitly described oath, but you do see something similar in book 13, the Corpus Hermeticum.

你在我想说的第十一神圣残篇中也能看到类似的内容。

You see similar things in I want

我想说的是第十一神圣残篇。

to say it's the eleventh divine fragment.

是的。

Yeah.

比如，确实有一些誓词谈到，当涉及到保密事项，或那些尚未准备好接触的内容时，你一定会看到许多类似的誓词。

Like, there are definitely oaths that talk about, you know, when it comes to matters of secrecy, when it comes to matters of, you know, things to not be divulged, those who are not yet ready for them, you definitely see a number of similar oaths.

而且不仅仅出现在《赫尔墨斯文集》或其他哲学性的赫尔墨斯文本中。

And not just in Corpus Hermeticum or other philosophical Hermetic texts.

我记得，好像是在《论伊西斯与塞拉皮斯》这部早期炼金术文本中，也包含了一个类似的誓词。

I recall I think it's on, like, De Isidae Esiridae, an early alchemical text that also has a similar oath involved.

所以，很难确切地说，因为‘神秘事物必须以誓词约束并保密’这一观念，在整个地中海地区确实非常普遍，尤其是神秘教派的广泛传播。

So, yeah, it's kinda hard to say really because the notion of mysteries needing to be kept oath bound and secret, that was definitely a common thing all across Mediterranean, especially the proliferation of mystery cults.

因此，很难断定这是否是赫尔墨斯主义特有的，但鉴于他其他明显的赫尔墨斯倾向，如果他确实受到某些赫尔墨斯文本的影响，也不足为奇。

So it's hard to say whether it was explicitly a Hermetic thing, but given his other Hermetic tendencies, it wouldn't be surprised if he got influenced from specific Hermetic texts about that.

当然。

Sure.

是的。

Yeah.

而她的研究则更深入地探讨了瓦伦斯哲学与某些赫尔墨斯主义之间的诸多相似之处。

And her her treatment, she goes into a much more detailed treatment of some of the parallels between some of Valens' philosophy and some of the Hermeticism.

有意思的一点是，她有时会推测，瓦伦斯之所以会有那些观点，并非像大家一向注意到的那样——是从他的决定论中体现的斯多葛学派倾向来的；她认为瓦伦斯并不是直接借鉴了早期斯多葛学派的文献，而是从赫尔墨斯主义文献中吸收了部分斯多葛学派的影响，这些赫尔墨斯文献本身已经吸纳了斯多葛学说，充当了中间传播的媒介。

And what's interesting is sometimes she speculates that he's not because Valens has always had really noted Stoic tendencies in his determinism, but she speculates that he's not getting it straight from early Stoic sources, but instead he's getting some of the Stoic influences from Hermetic sources that have picked up Stoicism and that are acting as intermediaries.

而瓦伦斯思想里那些更偏向斯多葛学派的倾向，就是这么来的。

And that's where some of the more Stoic tendencies are coming from in Valens.

我原本打算顺着这个话题聊些什么来着？

Where do I want to go with that?

有个值得聊的点比较复杂，我记得我们在这次录制前简单提过：有一位大概生活在三世纪的晚期炼金术士，名叫佐西莫斯，他留下过一篇非常有意思的短文，内容大致是围绕字母欧米伽展开的一段对话或探讨。

One of the things that's worth picking up that's tricky, I know that we talked about very briefly before this is there's a later alchemist from I think around March named Zosimos and he has this really interesting, very brief text which is like a dialogue or discussion on the letter Omega.

而在这份文献里，他留下了几段非常有意思的摘录，内容是他梳理并对比了自己能接触到的两位不同作者的哲学观点。

And in this text, he has some really interesting excerpts where he's talking about and he's drawing some philosophy and contrasting some philosophy from two different authors that he has access to.

其中一段出自一篇归于赫尔墨斯名下的赫密斯主义文献，那篇文献里的世界观和命运观非常偏向斯多葛派的决定论，核心观点是人必须认清自己的命运，才能接纳它，也应当接纳自己的命运。

One of them is a Hermetic text that's attributed to Hermes that seems to be giving a much more like Stoic and deterministic philosophy of the world and of fate and this notion that you have to learn your fate so that you can accept it and that you should accept your fate.

他将这段内容和另一篇归于琐罗亚斯德名下的文献做了对比，那篇文献里提出，人应当能够借助魔法操控、改变，或是以某种方式左右自己的命运。

He's contrasting that with another text that's attributed to Zoroaster where this text was saying that you should be able to use magic in order to control or change or somehow manipulate your fate.

我觉得这个对比非常有意思，赫密斯主义传统内部或许也存在分歧：一部分文献更偏向斯多葛派的决定论，认为人无法改变命运——哪怕你认清了自己的命运也不行，就像瓦伦斯和梅内留斯这些占星家的主张那样，他们都倾向于决定论，认为人要认清命运，才能明确自己未来必须接纳的一切。

And I thought that was a really interesting contrast there and that there may be some tensions within the Hermetic tradition about some of the texts may have been more stoic and deterministic in saying that you can't change your fate and that even if you learn your fate, like some of the astrologers like Valens and Menelius say, they tend towards determinism and say that you want to learn your fate so that you know what you have to accept about your future.

也许存在某种形式的赫尔墨斯主义持这种观点，而另一些形式的赫尔墨斯主义则认为命运更具可协商性，认为可以通过魔法或仪式在某种程度上缓解命运。

There may be some versions of Hermeticism that went that direction versus there may be some other versions of Hermeticism that were thinking that fate was more negotiable and saying that you could use things like magic or ritual in order to mitigate it to some extent.

天哪。

Oh, boy.

好吧。

Okay.

所以佐西莫斯，伟大的炼金术士，更偏向诺斯替主义而非赫尔墨斯主义。

So Zosimosimos, great alchemist, more of a Gnostic than Hermeticist.

我不确定是否曾有人把他描述为某种非常异端的基督徒。

Don't know if Maybe I've seen him describe as like a very heterodox Christian at points.

我不太确定。

I'm not entirely sure.

他有自己的观点，这很好。

He has an opinion and good for him.

是的。

Yeah.

我知道这是你非常重视的事情，因为你更倾向于关注魔法传统和事物的魔法层面。

And I know this is something you feel strongly about because you tend to focus more on the magical tradition and the magical side of things.

对吧？

Right?

并不总是如此。

Not always.

所以这真的要看情况。

So it really depends.

而且，我们只能接触到历史上留存下来的部分记录。

And again, we only have what survives to us in their historical record.

而在留存下来的文本中，它们的表述并不像佐西莫斯本人所说的那样明确。

And of the texts that survive to us, they don't actually make as firm a statement as what Zosimos himself says.

甚至在佐西莫斯自己的《欧米伽信》中，当他谈论区分时，他区分了赫尔墨斯的观点与琐罗亚斯德的观点，琐罗亚斯德说，智者能够且应当使用魔法来改善世界。

And even in Zosimos' own on the letter omega, you know, when he talks about the distinctions you when he distinguishes, you know, Hermes' point of view from Zoroaster's point of view, Zoroaster says that the wise man can and should use magic to make the world better.

据我所知，佐西莫斯说，赫尔墨斯认为，虽然智者可以这样做，但他应当克制不去做，而不是说他不能做。

Zosimos, I've heard correctly, says something that Hermes says that while a wise man can do it, he should refrain from doing so, not that he can't.

所以，佐西莫斯想强调的是命运的至高无上，以及让命运占据主导地位。

So it's emphasizing the primacy of fate and letting fate have primacy that Zosimos wants to draw attention to.

这完全是一种合理的立场。

And that's totally a legitimate approach to take.

说实话，我一时想不起任何赫尔墨斯文本能如此明确地表达这一点，但我也看不出有任何文本会与此相悖。

Like, I can't think of any Hermetic texts off the top of my head that say as much in such explicit terms, but I can't see anything either that wouldn't.

让我查一下。

Let me pull up

我很快把这段文字找出来，我想我在书里引用过。

the passage really quickly I think I quoted it in my book.

这段话出自佐西莫斯。

This is from Zosimos.

这是由霍华德·M.翻译的版本。

It's from translation by Howard M.

杰克逊。

Jackson.

它说：琐罗亚斯德自豪地断言，通过掌握所有超自然事物的知识，以及通过魔法科学对有形言语的有效运用，人可以避免命运带来的一切灾祸，无论是个人层面的还是普遍层面的。

And it says, Now Zoroaster boastfully affirms that by the knowledge of all things supernatural and by the Magean science of the efficacious use of corporeal speech, one averts all the evils of fate, both those of individual and those of universal application.

然而，赫尔墨斯在《论内在生活》一书中谴责了这种魔法科学，认为一个已经认识自我的灵性之人，无需借助魔法来修正任何事物，即使这被视为好事，也不应强迫命运，而应让命运依其本性和旨意自然运作。

Hermes, however, in his book On the Inner Life condemns even the Magian science saying that the spiritual man, one who has come to know himself need not rectify anything through the use of magic, not even it is considered a good thing nor must he use force upon necessity, but rather allow necessity to work in accordance with her own nature and decree.

他必须通过这一探索来理解自己。

He must proceed through that one search to understand himself.

当他认识了神之后，就必须牢牢持守那不可言说的三位一体，并让命运去自由地塑造属于她的泥土——即身体。

And then when he has come to know God, he must hold fast to the ineffable triad and leave fate to work what she will upon the clay that belongs to her, that is the body.

现在或许是个好时机，来谈谈《赫尔墨斯文集》以及那些归于赫尔墨斯名下的不同哲学文本。

This might be a good point to bring up the Hermetica and the Hermetic philosophical texts and different texts attributed to Hermes.

这些文本由不同的人在不同时期撰写，其哲学观点有时显著不同，因此我们今天所见的《赫尔墨斯文集》并非一种单一、统一的哲学体系，而是其中各文本的哲学思想存在诸多差异。

These are being written by different people during different time periods and with sometimes markedly, notably somewhat different philosophical outlooks and takes on things so that the Hermetica as we have it today, it's not one singular monolithic philosophy, but instead you'll see a lot of variations in the philosophy between different Hermetic texts.

是的。

Yes.

我通常这样描述：当你看《赫尔墨斯文集》时，它并不是一本书。

So the way I like describing it is when you look at the Corpus Hermeticum, it's not one book.

我之所以一直说第一卷、第二卷、第三卷，而不是第一章、第二章、第三章，是有原因的。

There's a reason why I keep saying book one, book two, book three versus chapter one, chapter two, chapter three.

它们实际上是在同一部合集中收录的不同文本。

They really are different texts in a compilation of them.

与其认为这些文本都出自同一位作者，不如认为它不是单一的。

And rather than thinking of all these texts being written by one author, it's better to think of it's not k.

所以用一个大学的比喻来说，与其把赫尔墨斯主义看作是一位教授在讲堂上的单场讲座，不如把它看作是同一院系中几位教授之间的小组辩论。

So to use a college metaphor, rather than thinking of Hermeticism as being a lecture by a professor in a lecture hall, it's better to think of it like a panel debate between different professors all in the same department.

就像，他们都在认同同一件事。

Like, they're all nodding about the same thing.

他们都在做大致相同类型的研究、探索和实践，但每个人都有自己的专业领域和独特观点，彼此之间也可能发生争执。

They're all doing more or less the same kind of study and research and practice, but they all have their own specific specialties and their own opinions, and they may have fights amongst each other.

他们可能会有分歧和争论，但这完全没问题。

They may have disagreements and disputes, and that's totally fine.

你知道，赫尔墨斯主义并不是单一的东西。

You know, Hermeticism was not a single thing.

它是一种松散、分散的神秘主义倾向，我并不想称之为运动，而是一种跨越数个世纪、在不同地区共享的内在动力。

It was a loose, decentralized, kind of mystic I don't wanna say movement per se, but an impulse that was shared amongst different places across several centuries.

因此，如果佐西莫斯当时确实找到了明确鼓励顺从命运的文本，我一点都不会感到惊讶。

So it would not surprise me if Zosimos did find texts at the time that explicitly encouraged a submission to fate, end of.

没错。

Right.

但我们也知道，当时有一些人既在从事魔法，同时也是赫尔墨斯主义者。

But we also know that there were people at the time who were doing magic, who were also Hermeticists.

比如，我们确切知道，在同一时期，有戒指被明确归于赫尔墨斯·特里斯墨吉斯忒斯，用于治疗、消除和预防身体疾病。

Like, we know for a fact that, you know, we have rings to, you know, heal and get rid of and prevent physical maladies, you know, explicitly attributed to Hermet Trismegistus in the same time period we would expect.

因此，我们知道当时有人以赫尔墨斯文本之名从事魔法。

So we know there was magic being done under the name Hermetica Trismegistus.

所以，仅这一点就让佐西莫斯的说法显得非常奇怪。

So right there, like, it kind of throws Zosimos' claim into a really weird light.

因此，这两种方式都完全成立。

So both approaches totally work.

你知道，无论你是只想严格顺从命运，还是想与命运互动并影响它，这两种方式都是完全正当的。

You know, whether you just wanna do a strict submission to fate or whether you want to work with and imply fate, you know, both are totally legitimate.

这让我想到，命运的本质，或者至少人们对它的认知，可能在严格的希腊决定论观点与更灵活的埃及观点之间存在差异。

And I can't think it kind of points to a difference in the very nature of fate or at least how it's perceived between a more strictly deterministic Hellenic approach versus a more pliable Egyptian approach.

在希腊的观点中，命运是绝对的。

Like, in the Hellenic approach, fate was absolute.

甚至连众神都要服从命运。

Like, even the gods were subject to fate.

但在埃及的观点中，众神掌控着命运。

But in the Egyptian approach, the gods were in control of fate.

所以，如果你做了正确的祈求，举行了正确的仪式，以正确的方式打动众神，他们就能改变命运。

So if you made the right, you know, appeals, the right rituals, if you intrigued the gods the right way, they could change fate.

我认为，有时你会看到这两种观点之间一种不稳定的融合尝试，或者在某些赫尔墨斯文本中，其中一种观点比另一种更占主导。

And I think you see this uneasy attempt at synthesis between those two views at times or perhaps one view represent more than the other in certain Hermetic texts.

是的。

Right.

是的

Yeah.

而且其中一部分，我想需要注意的是，加思·福登在他的著作《埃及的赫尔墨斯》中，对赫尔墨斯主义进行了非常出色的阐述。这本书写于20世纪80年代，虽然现在略显陈旧，期间也出现了不少新的研究成果，但它依然是赫尔墨斯主义领域的里程碑式著作。

And part of it, I guess, one thing that should be noted is how Garth Foden in his book, The Egyptian Hermes, is a really good treatment of Hermeticism, it was written back in the 1980s, so it's a little bit old now and there's been some additional scholarship during that time and it's still just a landmark book on Hermeticism.

但他提到，扬布利科斯说，埃及祭司中存在一个哲学流派，会将他们所有的教义归于赫尔墨斯，而他们这样做的目的并非如此。

But he mentions Iamblichus says that Egyptian priests would or that there was a philosophical school that would attribute all of their teachings to Hermes and that they weren't doing this.

他试图重新诠释这一点，因为过去学者们曾对此有误解。

He tries to reframe it because it previously was thought to be by scholars.

人们常将其描绘为伪托传统的一部分——即把文本归于神明或传奇人物，以提升其权威性，使其在古代世界更容易传播、销售或推广。一些学者将这种做法视为负面行为。

It's often portrayed as part of the pseudo epigraphical tradition of attributing your text to a god or to a legendary figure in order to make it look better and make it sell or get out there better in terms of distribution in the ancient world, in terms of book publishing and that it was viewed as like some scholars frame it as a negative thing.

但塔特（Thoth）引用了扬布利科斯的观点，指出他们这样做的目的是为了表明自己对某一特定传统的思想传承与依赖，并以此重新定义了这一行为。

But instead, Thoth cites this practice and says, Iamplicism, that they're doing this in order to show that they have some sort of intellectual indebtedness or lineage to a specific tradition and sort of reframes it in that way.

我一直觉得，这种理解方式非常有趣：它让我们看到，一些赫尔墨斯文本部分是为了表明他们与古老传统的联系，而非试图完全创新或提出全新的东西，而是想表明自己属于一个源远流长的传统，而这正是其意义所在。

I thought that was always a really interesting way then of understanding some of the Hermetic texts that they're doing this partially to signal their connection to and that they're not trying to be entirely new or coming up with something fresh per se, but that they're part of a longer tradition that stretches back and that's part of what that's about.

是的

Yeah.

这本质上是延续性的保存。

It's a preservation of continuity, essentially the same idea.

想想罗马帝国。

Consider the Roman Empire.

罗马帝国对古老事物有着浓厚的兴趣。

The Roman Empire had this fascination with old things.

尽管罗马人并不太在意犹太人以及他们崇拜非宙斯或朱庇特的神，但他们允许犹太人保持自己的信仰，因为这些信仰太过古老。

Even though they didn't much care for the Jews and Jews worshiping gods that weren't Zeus or Jupiter, they let the Jews maintain their thing because they were so old.

但相反，当基督教出现时，罗马人却残酷地迫害他们，因为基督教是一种新事物。

But conversely, when the Christians came on the scene, the Romans viciously chased after them because they were something new.

在很多方面，这种对延续性的保存，是为了表明我们不仅 indebted 于古老的智慧、我们祖先的智慧，而且我们也在努力延续、保存并进一步发展这些智慧，以适应现代时期。

So in many of same ways, you have this preservation of continuity to signal that not only are we indebted to, you know, the wisdom of old, the wisdom of, you know, our ancient forebears, you know, we are trying to continue that and preserve it and also develop it further for a modern day period.

因此，是的，对于加思·福顿的论述，我认为这是一个非常扎实的主张。

And so, yeah, for Garth Fountain prose, I think that's a very solid claim to make.

因为正如福顿所展示的，以及像克里斯蒂安·鲍尔这样的其他学者——他们极大地继承并拓展了加思·福顿的研究——表明埃及的影响、埃及宗教性以及埃及神秘主义冲动深深嵌入在赫尔墨斯文献中。

Because as Fountain has showed, as other scholars like Christian Ball, you know, who greatly builds on the work of, Garth Fountain and, you know, expands on it, you know, shows that there's so much, you know, Egyptian influence, Egyptian religiosity, Egyptian mystic impulse embedded in the Hermetica.

我们可能会稍微提一下，但它确实存在。

Like, we might have tease that a bit, but it's there.

从这个意义上说，赫尔墨斯主义确实可以被视为一种更古老的宗教性和神秘主义传统的延续，而这些传统可能并未在神庙崇拜或其他文献中被明确地公开保存下来。

And in that sense, the Hermetic stuff can indeed be considered a a continuation of older forms of religiosity, of mysticism that may not have been explicitly exoterically preserved in temple cult or other records.

好的。

Okay.

让我们读一读托特的这段文字，因为它实在太精彩了。

Let read that passage from Thoth in because it's so good.

这段话一直印在我脑海里，帮助我更好地理解，因为我们对一些早期的占星文本也存在类似的困惑，这些文本同样源自

It's always stuck with me and it's helped me to understand better because we struggle with this with some of the early astrological texts which also come from

这个

this

赫尔墨斯主义在亚历山大和埃及地区盛行的背景下，希腊化占星传统的奠基作者们，比如一些最早的作者，常常将自己的著作归于赫尔墨斯、阿斯克勒庇俄斯、吉涅普索或佩托西里斯等人物，因此在某种程度上，这些作者是匿名的。

Hermetic sort of thing that was happening in Alexandria and around Egypt where the foundational authors of the Hellenistic astrological tradition, like some of the earliest authors tended to attribute their texts to figures like Hermes or Asclepius or Gnicepso and Petosiris and other figures like that so that they are in some ways sort of anonymous.

我们并不知道希腊化占星术的奠基作者究竟是谁，但这是因为这种做法与将著作归于某位先贤以彰显传承传统的做法密切相关。

We don't know who the foundational authors of Hellenistic astrology are, but it's because it's tied in with this practice of potentially attributing it to signify some sort of lineage tradition.

因此，托特在思考这个问题时指出，这种伪托现象不太可能是为了提升权威性或传播范围而冷血地、随意地归于任何古代或神话人物，尽管敌对的批评者可能会如此指控，比如波菲利就坚持认为，诺斯替派的《琐罗亚斯德之书》完全是后人伪造的，由教派成员编造，以制造出他们所尊崇的教义源自古代琐罗亚斯德的假象。

So Thoth in wrestling with this says, It's perhaps unlikely that the pseudo epigraphia of this sort were cold bloodedly or indiscriminately attributed to just any ancient or mythical figure in order to increase their authority or circulation, though this might be alleged by a hostile critic as when Porphyry maintained that the Gnostic book of Zoroaster was entirely spurious and modern made up by the sectarians to convey the impression that the doctrines which they had chosen to hold in honor were those of the ancient Zoroaster.

相反，在赫尔墨斯传统中，如同毕达哥拉斯学派和奥菲斯教派一样，应当认为存在一种持续的灵感传承，每一部新增的作品都被视为一种新的体现，可以合理地——即使不完全精确地——归于其名义上的创始人。

Rather, one should suppose in the Hermetic tradition as among the Pythagoreans and Orphics, some sense of a continuity of inspiration of which each text added to the genre was seen as a new manifestation which could fairly if not with pedantic precision be ascribed to the eponymous founder.

正如扬布利柯所言，既然赫尔墨斯是所有知识的源头，古埃及祭司将他们的著作归于他，便是一种自然而然的敬意。

As Iomblichus put it, since Hermes was the source of all knowledge, it was only natural that the ancient Egyptian priest should render him homage by attributing their writings to him.

因此，我们无需想象，一位习惯以赫尔墨斯之名传播其著作的精神导师会觉得自己在 perpetuating 一种欺骗，或需要掩饰其行为，以免显得令人震惊。

So we need not imagine that a spiritual teacher who was in the habit of circulating his compositions under the name of Hermes will have felt that he was perpetuating a deception or that he needed to dissemble what he was doing as potentially scandalous.

事实上，他的作品恰恰因其并非出自孤立的作者行为，而是反映了他所处时代之前积淀下来的智性文化，因而赢得了追随者的尊重——简言之，因为它并不追求原创性。

And indeed, his work will have gained weight in the eyes of his followers precisely because it was not merely the product of an autonomous authorial act, but reflected the sedimentary intellectual culture of his own in earlier times, in short because it did not strive after originality.

因此，这一点对于理解赫尔墨斯文献以及现存的不同赫尔墨斯文本——包括哲学性的和实践性的——可能极为重要。

So that might be a really important point here in terms of understanding the Hermetica and the different Hermetic texts that survive both the philosophical ones as well

以及实践性的文本。

as the practical ones.

是的。

Yes.

当然。

Absolutely.

我认为这是一个非常重要的观点。

And that I think is a really good point to make.

什么才构成一篇赫尔墨斯文本？

What makes a Hermetic text?

这不仅仅是形式问题。

It's not just the format.

在哲学类赫尔墨斯文本中，往往倾向于使用对话体。

There is a tendency, like, in the philosophical Hermetic text to use a dialogue format.

但这并非总是必需的。

That's not always necessary.

我们确实也有书信体，或者像第三卷那样，只是简单地写在纸上的文字。

We do have, like, the letter format or just, like, book three where it's just, like, amusing that's written down on paper.

这并不仅仅关乎赫尔墨斯这个名字是否出现。

It's not just about, you know, the name Hermes being present.

你知道，无论是赫尔墨斯对阿斯克勒庇俄斯，还是戴帽子的赫尔墨斯，或是阿斯克勒庇俄斯对阿蒙，关键并不在于出现的是哪些人，因为还有一些赫尔墨斯文本根本没涉及赫尔墨斯，而是阿加莎·戴蒙德和奥西里斯之间的对话。

You know, whether it's Hermes to Asclepius or Hermes with Hat or Asclepius to Ammon, it's not necessarily just the people present because you also have other Hermetic texts where Hermes isn't involved at all, but it's a text between Agatha Diamond and Osiris.

但因为阿加莎·戴蒙德在其他方面也与赫尔墨斯有关联，所以仍被归入同一整体范畴。

But because Agatha Diamond is also tied to Hermes in another way, it's still considered under the same overall purview.

真正重要的是内容。

It's more about the content that matters.

而且这本身也是一个很模糊的概念，因为你怎么区分诺斯替文本和赫尔墨斯文本呢？

And again, that's really a fuzzy thing on its own because, you know, where do draw the distinction between Gnostic texts versus Hermetic ones?

是仅仅因为其中出现了基督教元素吗？

You know, is it just the presence of a Christian element?

还是因为没有这些元素？

You know, is it the lack thereof?

你如何界定犹太诺斯替文本和赫尔墨斯文本之间的界限？

You know, where you all stinks between a Jewish Gnostic text versus a Hermetic one?

有时候，这确实非常模糊。

It can be really fuzzy at times.