普拉西杜斯是如何成为最受欢迎的宫位系统的？

你可以拥有的最重要的主向之一。

One of the most important primary directions you can have.

因此，天顶度数通常位于第十宫整宫制中，但可能并非如此，它会像第十宫宫头一样发挥作用。

So it kind of made sense that the Midheaven degree which is usually in the tenth house whole sign but may not be would act like a tenth house cusp.

所以这是一种四宫制的观点。

So that was a quadrant house idea.

因此，如果你转向四宫制，普拉西杜斯系统就完全说得通了。

And so if you move to quadrant houses then the Placidus system makes perfect sense.

如果你坚持整宫制，那就回到了托勒密的原始体系。

You stick with whole sign houses, then you're back to Ptolemy's original.

好的。

Okay.

对我来说，托勒密这段文字中有趣的一点是。

One of the things that's interesting about this to me is this passage of Ptolemy.

你和霍尔登都指出的一点是，尽管普拉西杜斯宫位系统以普拉西杜斯命名，但历史上这并不是首次提出这种体系，事实上，伊本·埃兹拉早在十二或十三世纪就描述过同样的方法。

So one of the things that you pointed out and that Holden has pointed out is that even though the Placidus house system bears the name of Placidus at this point, This wasn't actually the first time historically that it was introduced, but in fact, Ibn Ezra describes the same approach all the way back in like what the twelfth or thirteenth century.

应该是十二世纪，或者1100年代，我想。

Was twelfth century or the 11 hundreds, I think.

十二世纪。

Twelfth century.

好的。

Okay.

所以伊本·以斯拉也描述了同样的体系。

So Ibn Ezra also describes the same system.

但据我们所知，普拉西杜斯并没有读过伊本·以斯拉的著作，也没有引用过他。

But then as far as we know, Placidus wasn't reading Ibn Ezra and doesn't cite him.

所以霍尔登似乎认为，他们一定是独立发现并提出了这种方法。

So Holden seems to say that they must have discovered it and come up with it independently basically.

是的。

Yeah.

而我对这个问题也不清楚。

And I don't know the answer to that.

但在我看来，他们都读过托勒密，对托勒密有相同的理解，因此得出了相同的体系，而其他人却没有这种理解。

But it seemed to me that they both read Ptolemy, had the same understanding of Ptolemy and came up with the same system whereas other people didn't have that understanding.

如果你读一本难懂的文本，每个人都会从中得出不同的想法。

If you read a difficult text, everyone's going to come away with a different idea about it.

两个非常聪明的占星家做出相似甚至相同的解释，并不令人惊讶。

It's not surprising that two very bright astrologers would make a similar or same interpretation.

是的。

Yeah.

关于这一点还有其他不同的争论，比如命宫或幸运点的计算方式，不同占星家根据他们对不同文本的理解，会采用不同的计算方法。

And there were also different arguments about that with different things like the calculation for the lot or the part of fortune and different calculations that you can use depending on how astrologers were reading different texts and things like that.

关于托勒密，他的文本被以不同方式解读，正如我之前所说，这可以追溯到希腊传统。

And it's interesting in terms of Ptolemy, Ptolemy's text was being interpreted in different ways like I said going back to the Greek tradition.

霍尔登和施密特都认为，托勒密在这一章中描述的基本上是等宫制。

Holden and Schmidt both say that Ptolemy was describing equal houses essentially in this chapter.

如果你读一下公元五世纪初用希腊语写作的赫菲斯提昂，他在最初描述时，基本上就是这么讲的：他认为这相当于一种等宫制。

And if you read Hephaistio of Thebes who was writing in Greek in the early fifth century around like 1415, Hephaistio when he first describes it, that's basically how he describes it is that he says it's viewed as like an equal house system.

但他引用了另一位早期评论家潘卡里乌斯，此人对这段文字的解读不同，并在此处引入了所谓的阿尔卡比提乌斯宫位系统的改良版本，或者霍尔登认为这可能是波菲利宫位系统的改良形式，即象限宫位划分的一种。

But then he cites another early commentator on Ptolemy named Pancharius who interpret it differently and at this point introduces what was either a modified version of what's called the Alcabitius house system or Holden says that it may have been like a modified version of the Porphyry house system of quadrant house division.

所以，即使在希腊传统中，这些不同的作者在阅读帕托勒密的同一段文字时，也仅通过试图解读这段文字就产生了不同的宫位划分方式。

So basically, even back in the Greek tradition, these different authors reading the same passage of Ptolemy were generating different forms of house division just by attempting to interpret the same passage.

因此，至少有三种不同的宫位划分方式，完全是基于文本依据，或至少在很大程度上基于文本依据，来试图还原帕托勒密原本想表达的意思。

So that's at least three different forms of house division that are being generated purely based on textual or partially at least largely based on textual reasons as this attempt to reconstruct what Ptolemy was trying to say.

而阿尔卡比提乌斯系统可以说是普拉西杜斯系统的前身。

And the Alcabitius is sort of a precursor to Placidus.

它是一种基于时间的系统。

It's a time based system.

用时间而非空间来思考，并不那么奇怪。

That's not so unusual that you would think in terms of time instead of space.

我想在我忘记这个想法之前补充一点：普拉西杜斯在解读帕托勒密时的高明之处在于，他还研究过开普勒的作品，因为开普勒比帕托勒密更早，也比普拉西杜斯更早。

See, I think before I lose this thought, part of the brilliance of Placidus in reading Ptolemy, he also had studied Kepler's work as Kepler came before Ptolemy, before Placidus.

这些以P开头的名字让我有点混乱。

These P words confuse me here.

托勒密和开普勒出现在普拉西杜斯之前。

Ptolemy Kepler came before Placidus.

开普勒的一项重大发现，我认为是他行星运动第二定律，即行星在相等时间内扫过相等的面积。

And one of Kepler's major findings, I think it's his second law of planetary motion is that the planets will sweep out equal areas in equal lengths of time.

普拉西杜斯非常熟悉开普勒的定律。

And Placidus was very familiar with Kepler's laws.

他很可能在大学课程中讲授过这些定律。

He probably taught them in his university courses.

因此，他习惯于将时间和空间视为相互关联的。

So he was used to thinking that time and space are connected.

我们必须理解，他虽然没有使用这个词，但他的思维方式类似于爱因斯坦之前的时空连续体。

We have to think of He didn't use the word, but it's kind of pre Einstein that he's thinking in terms of a space time continuum.

你不能像雷吉奥蒙塔努斯那样，仅从空间角度来衡量事物。

That you can't measure things just spatially which is what Regiomantanus did.

你也不能仅从时间角度来衡量它们。

You can't measure them just temporally.

你必须像开普勒那样，把时空视为相等面积与相等时间的结合。

You have to think of space time as Kepler did, equal areas and equal amounts of time.

托勒密的宫位体系与此非常相似。

And Ptolemy's houses are very much like that.

它们是相等时间内扫过的空间区域。

They're areas of space swept out in equal amounts of time.

这是一种开普勒式的理念，普拉西杜斯将其应用于宫位系统。

It's a very Keplerian idea that Placidus applies to house systems.

好的。

Okay.

但基本上，这意味着对托勒密这段文字或这一章的解读，催生了多种宫位系统。

Basically though, part of this means that interpretations of this passage or this chapter in Ptolemy have generated multiple house systems.

因此，詹姆斯·霍尔登称这是占星史上最具争议的章节之一，大体就是这个意思。

And so this is why James Holden called this the most controversial chapter basically ever in the history of astrology or something to that effect.

现在我们开始明白为什么了，因为几个世纪以来，占星师们不断回溯，试图解读和理解托勒密，试图重建他的方法，却常常得出不同结论，进而催生出不同的技术体系，而当占星师们对自认为发现的托勒密原始体系感到兴奋时，这些体系有时就会改变占星学的历史，人们随后纷纷转向新的体系。

Now we can start to see why because there's literally centuries of guys, of astrologers trying to go back and figure out and understand and read Ptolemy and try to reconstruct what he was doing and sometimes coming to different conclusions which were then generating different technical systems which were then sometimes changing the history of astrology when astrologers then would get excited about what they thought Ptolemy was doing in figuring out the original system and then everyone would switch to whatever the new thing was.

好的。

All right.

所以这就是关于这个的全部背景。

So that's all the background on this.

那么，让我们来谈谈普拉西杜斯在17世纪中期出版这些著作、阐述这种新的宫位划分系统（至少对他而言是新的系统）之后所产生的影响。

So let's talk a bit then about the impact of Placidus once he publishes these works in the middle of the seventeenth century outlining this new system of house division or at least what for him was a new system of house division essentially.

普拉西杜斯的宫位系统并没有影响威廉·利利的《基督教占星学》，因为这部著作是英语世界最早或最重要的占星技术著作或教材之一，出版于1647年。

So Placidus' system of houses didn't impact William Lilly's Christian Astrology, famously like the earliest or one of the earliest major technical works on astrology or instructional manuals on astrology in the English language because it was published in 1647.

因此，利利使用的是雷戈蒙塔努斯宫位系统，他的门徒如约翰·加德伯里和亨利·科利也是如此，对吧？

So Lilly used Regiomantanus houses and so did his disciples like John Gadbury and Henry Coley, right?

他们一直沿用到本世纪余下的时间。

And they used them well into the rest of the century.

从利利的时代起，他的门徒们一直使用雷戈蒙塔努斯系统，至少持续到1700年。

From the time of Lilly, his disciples used Regiomantanus until at least 1700.

他们都在18世纪初去世。

They died in the early 1700s.

好的。

Okay.

所以利利本人，他的生卒年份是1602年到1681年。

So Lilly himself, his dates are like born 1602 and died 1681.

约翰·加德伯里的生卒年份是1627年到1704年。

And then John Gadbury is 1627 to 1704.

亨利·科利的生卒年份是1633年到1707年。

And Henry Coley is 1633 to 1707.

是的，你说得对。

So yeah, you're right.

但在这一时期，尽管普拉西杜斯在英格兰引起了很多人兴趣，利利一派仍坚持使用雷戈蒙塔努斯体系。

And so during this period, though Placidus was many people in England were getting interested in Placidus, the Lilly group stuck with Regiomantanus.

好的。

Okay.

但对普拉西杜斯来说不幸的是，在他生前，你特别强调的一个观点是，他的著作后来被天主教会禁止，他的书于1687年被列入教会的禁书目录。

But unfortunately for Placidus, while he was still alive, believe one of the points that you make that you really emphasize is that his work was forbidden by the Catholic church later in his life and his book was placed on the church's index of forbidden books in 1687.

对。

Right.

对于非天主教徒来说，我从小是天主教徒，所以我知道这个禁书目录。

For those non Catholics, I grew up Catholic so I know about the index.

实际上，当我还是孩子的时候，这个目录仍然有效。

It was still in effect when I was a child actually.

真的在

Got really In

二十世纪？

the twentieth century?

我出生于1945年。

I was born in 1945.

好的。

Okay.

我小时候上过天主教学校，那时候有些书是不准读的。

I went to Catholic school as a child and there were books you could not read.

我认为这被视为一种罪过，是对信仰的违背。

I think it was considered a sin, a violation of your faith.

教会最终废除了这个禁书目录，但它曾经是一种控制人们阅读内容的手段，防止你阅读那些会动摇信仰的异端书籍。

And the church eventually got rid of this index, but it was a way of controlling what you read so you wouldn't read heretical stuff that would challenge your faith.

那我们知道他为什么会被列入其中吗？

And do we even know why he was added to it?

像我之前不太清楚的一点是

Like that was one thing I wasn't

克莱尔试着查过这件事。

Well, clear tried to look that up.

我找不到相关资料。

I can't find a reference.

这很有趣。

It's interesting.

这是个题外话。

This is an aside.

教会曾处死乔尔丹诺·布鲁诺，我们之前没讨论过他，他是一位非常杰出的宇宙学家，因基于理性提出的观点违背了教会教义而被活活烧死。

The church, Giordano Bruno who we didn't discuss was a very brilliant cosmologist, he was burned at the stake because he held positions based on his reason that violated church dogma.

有一本关于他的非常有趣的传记，传记作者甚至找到了他因异端罪受审的庭审记录。

There's a very interesting biography of him in which the biographer actually reproduces, got hold of the transcript of his trial for heresy.

因此，你可以读到他被指控的具体内容以及审判是如何进行的。

And so you can read what he was charged of and how the trial went.

不幸的是，他是个颇具挑衅性的人。

Unfortunately, he was a kind of provocative guy.

这并不是题外话，但很有意思。

This isn't a side but it's interesting.

他非常有逻辑性，是个极具创造力的天才。

Very logical, very creative genius.

他曾经说过一件事，这在天主教国家简直是愚蠢至极——因为教会完全可以把你绑在火刑柱上烧死——他说，从科学角度讲，处女不可能在没有精子受精的情况下生育。

And one of the things he would say, which was really stupid if you're in a Catholic country where the church can burn you with a stake, is that it's scientifically impossible for a virgin to give birth without being impregnated by sperm.

因此，圣母玛利亚的童贞受孕，作为教会的核心信仰，从科学上说是不可能的。

So the virgin birth of Mary, the key belief of the church is scientifically impossible.

这是一个美好的神话，一个动人的故事，但它不可能发生。

It's a nice myth, it's a nice story, but it couldn't have happened.

当然，教会不会喜欢这个观点。

Well, of course, the church is not gonna like this.

关于普拉西杜斯，我发给你们的其中一张幻灯片，我认为这是关键段落，第七张幻灯片。

With Placidus, one of the slides I sent you and actually this is I think the key passage, slide seven.

这段话很短，我可以读一下。

And it's brief, I can read it.

这是由谁翻译的英文版本？

This is an English translation by Who translated this?

库珀。

Cooper.

库珀1814年翻译的普拉西杜斯1650年的文本。

Cooper's 1814 translation of Placidus' 1650 text.

我认为这是关键的一段。

I think this is a key paragraph.

让我读第一句话。

Let me read the first sentence.

普拉西达斯写道：我只信托勒密和理性，别无他求。

Placidus writes, I desire no other guides but Ptolemy and reason.

他想表达的是：我不在乎教皇怎么说，不在乎教会怎么说，也不在乎权威怎么说，我只听托勒密怎么说，只相信我的理性告诉我什么是真的。

Now what he's saying is that I don't care what the Pope says, I don't care what the church says, I don't care what the hierarchy says, I'm just gonna listen to what Ptolemy says and what my reason tells me to be true.

这会让他和教会发生冲突。

This is gonna get him in trouble with the church.

教会因为伽利略拒绝收回他关于太阳是太阳系中心的信念，而将他软禁在家。

The church put Galileo under house arrest for not recanting his belief that the Sun was the center of the solar system.

对。

Right.

而且这没过去多久，因为伽利略的时代才刚开始

And that wasn't that much earlier because Galileo Beginning only

17世纪初，可能只早了几十年。

of the 1600s, maybe a few decades earlier.

是的。

Yeah.

伽利略于1642年去世。

So Galileo died in 1642.

是的。

Yeah.

正如你所说，只是早了几十年。

Like you said, just a few decades earlier.

因此，他竟在书面文字中宣称，我的唯一指南——记住，他是一名天主教修士，本应服从教会和教皇。

So for him to state in writing, my only guides, remember he's a Catholic monk so he's supposed to obey the church and obey the Pope.

但他却说，如果我的理性告诉我相反的结论，我就不会听从你们。

And he's saying, I'm not going to listen to you if my reason tells me otherwise.

这本书出版后，他遭到了教会的谴责。

When this book came out, he was censured by the church.

他们允许他出版，但附带了谴责。

They let him publish it but with censure.

这意味着他们不喜欢其中的一些内容。

It means they didn't like certain parts of it.

我认为他被谴责了三次，最后他们把他列入了禁书目录，我想是1687年。

And I think he was censured three times and finally they put him on the index, I think it was 1687.

我可能记错那个年份了。

I might have that date wrong.

是的，1687年是你或我在笔记中写的。

Yeah, 1687 is what you wrote or I wrote in the notes.

但是所以

And But so

1687年有趣的是，那一年托勒密的英文简版在英国出版了。

what's interesting about 1687, that is the same year that an abridged translation of Ptolemy came out in English in England.

对。

Right.

这就是为什么禁令如此重要，因为虽然普拉西杜斯的著作随后在欧洲天主教国家被禁，但在新教的英国却没有禁令，因为那里没有像欧洲那样对宗教教义进行强制执行。

And that's why the ban and that's something you really focus on is important because while Placidus' works then became banned in Catholic countries on the continent in Europe, in Protestant England, there was no ban because there was no religious enforcement of it the same way that there was in Europe.

没错。

Exactly.

这大概只是我的猜测。

And probably this is a guess on my part.

我没有证据。

I have no proof.

我想，英国的新教占星家知道教皇不希望人们读这本书，反而会更感兴趣。

I would think that Protestant astrologers in England knowing that the Pope didn't want you to read this would be even more interested.

好的。

Okay.

这就像是，如果你是个家长，告诉孩子：'别读那本小说'，孩子们会怎么做？

It's like if I tell you if you're a parent and you say, Don't you read that novel, what are the kids going to do?

他们肯定会拿起那本小说来读。

They're going to pick up the novel and read it.

当然。

Sure.

因此，尽管在17世纪中期，普拉西杜斯的著作及其对托勒密的重建和重新诠释——引入这种更托勒密式的主向法以及他的新宫位系统——并未影响利利及其部分早期学生，但到了17世纪末，这些理论开始在当时的英语国家占星师中流行起来。

By the end then, even though it didn't influence Lilly and some of his initial students in the middle of the seventeenth century, by the end of the seventeenth century, Placidus' work and his attempt to reconstruct Ptolemy and his reinterpretation to introduce this more Ptolemaic approach to primary directions as well as his new system of house divisions started to become popular among the English speaking astrologers at the time by the end of the seventeenth century.

是的。

Yeah.

而且你看，我们得换一个比喻。

And see, think we'd have to use another analogy.

雷吉奥蒙塔努斯已经很接近了。

Regiomantanus was close.

他面对托勒密一段非常令人困惑的论述，即如何判断行星在主向法中处于等效位置？

He took this very puzzling passage by Ptolemy about how do you know when planets are in equivalent places in the primary directions?

必须与地平线和中天——即子午线——保持某种特定关系。

Have to be a certain relation to the horizon and the Midheaven, the meridian.

他构建了一些看似有效的圆，但并不完全精确。

And he constructed circles that seemed to work except it wasn't quite exactly 100% right.

后来普拉西杜斯提出了一套完美适用的系统。

And then Placidus came along and had a system that worked perfectly.

这就像魔方，你把一切都摆对了，但只有一个小小的方块颜色错了。

It would be like the Rubik's Cube if you worked it and you got everything right but only one little square was out of the wrong color.

然后普拉西杜斯解决了这个魔方，所有部分都完美对齐。

And then Placidus does the Rubik's Cube and everything is perfectly aligned.

我的意思是，你所说的‘完美’是什么意思？

I mean, what do you mean by perfect?

因为当你从历史角度来研究宫位划分时——就像我们在这里做的——通常人们会从天文学角度来处理这个问题。

Because that's one of the problems when you get into usually people instead of this approaching the house division thing from a historical standpoint like we're doing here, they'll approach it from an astronomical standpoint.

已经有很多出色的研究表明，几乎每种系统都有其天文学上的合理性或依据。

And there's been a lot of good work done that shows the astronomical validity of almost every system that each system has some sort of astronomical basis or a rationale for it.

它们只是使用了不同的参考系来计算宫头应该精确落在哪里。

They're just using different frames of reference in order to calculate where the cusps should fall exactly.

我谈的是主要方向，不是宫头。

I was talking about primary directions, not house cusps.

好的，明白了。

Okay, got it.

换句话说，托勒密对主要方向的描述让人们感到困惑。

In other words, Ptolemy's description of primary directions was what puzzled people.

你如何才能使事物在相对于地平线和子午线的位置上保持等价呢？

How do you get things so that they're in equivalent places with respect to the horizon and the meridian?

当然。

Sure.

所以雷吉奥蒙塔努斯部分地理解了，他得到了

So Regiomantanus got it partially He got

几乎可能99%正确，然后普拉西杜斯出现了，一切都完美了。

it almost maybe 99% right and then Placidus came along and it was perfect.

完全正确。

It was 100% right.

这与托勒密所说的完全一致。

And it matched exactly what Ptolemy was saying.

因此推理是，既然普拉西杜斯在如何理解托勒密的主要方向上是正确的，那么他的宫位系统也必定是正确的。

So then the reasoning is that because Placidus got the primary directions right in terms of how Ptolemy did them, his house system must also be correct.

明白了。

Got it.

也就是说

Which is

一个跳跃。

a jump.

这确实是个跳跃。

That's a jump.

所以他基于雷吉奥蒙塔努斯的工作进行了延伸，但成功地精准还原了主方向的计算方法。

So he built on the work of Regiomantanus, but he was able to nail it with the primary directions.

实际上，像詹姆斯·霍尔登这样的当代历史学家认为，普拉西杜斯确实成功地重建了托勒密所使用的原始主方向体系。

Actually, in sort of contemporary historians' opinions like James Holden that he did think that Placidus was successful in reconstructing the original system of primary directions that Ptolemy used.

因此，这提升了普拉西杜斯的声誉，使人们更愿意相信他在重建托勒密所使用的宫位划分体系时也是正确的。

And so that then raised his profile and made people more open to thinking that he was right in reconstructing the system of house division that Ptolemy used at the same time.

克里斯，我觉得这虽然有点技术性，但可能很有帮助。

Chris, I think it might be useful even though it's a bit technical.

让我读一下这段话的英文版本，因为我们现在在讨论它，但人们并不知道原文怎么说。

Let me read the at least English version of that sentence from Ptolemy because we're sort of talking about it without people knowing what it says.

其实并不复杂。

It's not that complicated.

我来读一下。

I'll just read it.

好吗？

Okay?

你有吗？

Do you have it?

在幻灯片上，对吧？

It's on the slides, right?

有的。

It is.

是第三张幻灯片。

It's slide three.

好的。

Okay.

其实只是加粗的那部分。

And it's really just the thing in bold.

一个宫位，即黄道上的一个位置，可以是一个行星，也可以是一个类似的点，两者是相同的。

A place meaning a place in the horoscope on the ecliptic could be a planet or a point is similar and the same.

而这里的‘相同’，我认为他的意思是‘等价’。

And by the same here, think he means equivalent.

所以让我说它是等价的，我稍微调整了一下翻译。

So let me say it's equivalent, I'm changing the translation a bit.

一个宫位，如果相对于地平线和子午线具有相同的位置和相同的方向，那么它就是相似且等价的。

A place is similar and equivalent if it has the same position and same direction with reference to both the horizon and the meridian.

这听起来可能不太有道理，但他想表达的是：如果你使用象限宫位系统，当两个行星位于同一个象限中时，你怎么知道一个行星何时与另一个对齐？

And so, this may not sound like it makes a lot of sense, but all he's saying is that if you have a quadrant house system, if there are two planets in a quadrant, how do you know when one planet aligns with the other?

托勒密说，它们必须相对于地平线和子午线具有相同的位置和相同的方向。

And Ptolemy is saying they have to be in the same position in the same direction with reference to both the horizon and the meridian.

他说这是通过比例半弧来完成的。

And he says that's done by proportional semi arc.

你是要读完剩下的部分吗，还是说

Are you gonna read the rest of that or is that

哦，我不想太技术化。

Oh, I don't want to get too technical.

好的。

Okay.

是的，这样就可以了。

Yeah, that's fine.

不，不，我们没必要。

No, no, we don't have to.

但关键点在于，我想我们必须强调的是，到17世纪末，这种方法在英国占星师中流行起来，部分甚至很大程度上是因为它被视为对托勒密的一种新颖或激进的重新诠释和创新。

But the point is the really important underlying point here I guess that we have to emphasize is just that it became popular amongst English astrologers by the end of the seventeenth century partially or maybe even largely because it was seen as a new or radical reinterpretation of Ptolemy and an innovation.

而且再次出现了那种找回被掩盖的失落智慧的主题，于是人们认为，通过恢复这种失落的古代智慧，将有助于改进占星术的技术和实践。

And there was that theme again of recovering lost wisdom that had been obscured which then there was this idea that it would help improve the techniques and the practice of astrology by recovering this ancient wisdom that was lost.

因此，它在十七世纪末到十八世纪初迅速流行起来。

And so, it starts rapidly becoming popular by the late seventeenth and early eighteenth century.

在很多方面，正如我们之前所说，我们可以看到类似的平行现象：就像我们这个时代整体宫位制的流行一样，整体宫位制的概念甚至直到1980年代詹姆斯·霍尔登首次指出，这是所有早期希腊化或希腊占星家所使用的体系时才得以保存下来。

And in many ways, you know, we can see parallels like we said earlier, it's similar to the recent popularization of whole sign houses in our time where it was similarly like something where the concept of whole sign houses didn't even survive until James Holden first in the 1980s pointed out that this was the system that all of the early Hellenistic or the Greek astrologers were using.

随后，Project Hindsight项目中的罗伯特·汉德和罗伯特·施密特也做出了同样的发现，并指出这似乎是当时的主流体系。

And then subsequently Project Hindsight with Robert Hand and Robert Schmidt made the same discovery and also pointed out that that seemed to be the system.

自那以后的二三十年间，基于类似的根本动机或主题，这种体系得到了普及。

Then it's been popularized over the course of the past two or three decades since then based on similar underlying motivations or themes.

对。

Right.

我觉得这是对的。

I think that's true.

我想补充一点，关于普拉西杜斯体系，那些接触它的英国占星师，经历了一种类似宗教皈依的转变。

I just want to add in terms of Placidus that the British astrologers who got into Placidus, it was kind of a conversion experience like a religious conversion.

尤其是帕特里奇，他是主要倡导者之一，他写了一本书，我记不清具体年份了，大概是17世纪末。

Partridge especially who was a main proponent, he wrote a book, I forget which year, late 1600s.

我以为那是一本占星手册，具体书名记不清了，好像是《Astrological Vatae Maecum》之类的。

I thought it was like an astrologer's handbook, I forget the exact title, Astrological Vatae Maecum or something.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

你是不是想先提到柯比？

Did you want to mention Kirby first?

我们还是继续谈这个吧，因为他是这一领域的主要推动者。

Well, let's stick with this because he was really the big prime mover of this.

柯比和毕晓普合作翻译了普拉西杜斯的著作，将其引入了英语世界。

Kirby and Bishop did a translation, a bridge translation of Placidus, introduced it into the English language.

对。

Right.

那是在1687年。

So that was in 1687.

1687年。

1687.

你知道帕奇的第一本书是哪一年的吗？

Do you have the date of Partridge's first book?

最早的那本。

The very first one.

他的第一本书我觉得是1679年。

His first book was I think 1679.

1679年。

1679.

好的。

Okay.

那实际上更早一些。

So that was actually before.

好的。

Okay.

他在那本书中推崇的是雷吉奥蒙塔努斯的宫位系统。

And he was espousing Regiomontana's houses in that book.

这本书以雷吉奥蒙塔努斯宫位表开篇。

Begins the book with tables of Regiomontana's houses.

因此，我认为这是一个反驳那些人观点的论据，他们说普拉西杜斯宫位系统之所以流行，只是因为当时只有这种宫位系统可用。

And so I think this is one argument against the people who say, Well, Placidus is only popular because those were the only houses available.

帕特里奇的书籍在十八和十九世纪仍然可以买到，人们完全可以复制他的雷吉奥蒙塔努斯宫位表，直接照搬即可。

Partridge's books were still available in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries and people could have easily reproduced his tables of Regiomantanus houses, just copied them.

这会非常简单。

It would have been very easy.

十四年后，帕特里奇读到了普拉西杜斯的著作，尝试了他的方法，被深深震撼，心想：天啊，这正是我一直在寻找的版本。

And fourteen years later, Partridge then read Placidus, tried his techniques, got wowed by them, thought, Oh my god, this is my version of it.

我一直以来都做错了。

I've been doing it all wrong.

普拉西杜斯为我指明了方向。

Placidus has showed me the way.

我明白了。

I see the light.

所以，我认为在他第一本使用雷吉奥蒙塔努斯体系的书出版十四年后，他推出了第二本书，称之为《重订之作》，意思是‘我已革新’。

So, he then I think fourteen years after his first book where he's using Regiomantanus came out with the second book which he calls his Opus Reformatum I think is I'm reformed.

我现在看到了真理。

I see the truth now.

他说：忘掉雷吉奥蒙塔努斯吧，他搞错了。

And said, Forget Regiomantanus, he made a mistake.

去用普拉西杜斯吧，如果你想要遵循托勒密，他才真正懂行。

Go with Placidus, he knows what he's talking about if you want to follow Ptolemy.

对。

Right.

所以，约翰·帕奇里奇，生活在1644年到1715年间，是十七世纪最后一位重要的英国占星家，但他并不是在第一本书，而是在第二本和第三本书中，成为普拉西杜斯宫位系统的坚定支持者。

So John Partridge who lived from 1644 to 1715, he was like the last major English astrologer of the seventeenth century, but he also became not in his first book but in his second and third book a very vocal proponent of the Placidus system of house division.

这最终产生了重大影响，因为他是最后一位重要的英国占星家。

And this ended up having a big impact because he was like the last major English astrologer.

是的。

Yeah.

他基本上经历了一次转变。

He basically had a conversion experience.

他读了普拉西杜斯的著作，顿时豁然开朗。

He read Placidus and his eyes opened.

不过，帕特里奇身上还有一件奇怪的事，霍尔登在他的著作中指出，帕特里奇最初有一位老师，他在1679年的第一本书中曾高度赞扬过这位老师。

Well, there was something else weird going on with Partridge though because he also Holden points out in his work that Partridge initially had a teacher who he praises in his first book in 1679.

但到了他的第二本和第三本书时，他却不断猛烈地攻击这位老师。

But then when it comes to his second and his third books, he's just like very viciously constantly attacking

是加德伯里吗？

Was that Gadbury?

因为他曾猛烈地攻击加德伯里。

Because he attacked Gadbury viciously.

是的。

Yeah.

而且不是霍尔登，实际上是马丁·甘斯顿在他的《主法方向》一书中提到的。

And it was not Holden, was Martin Ganston actually in his book on primary directions.

他对此有一段非常有趣的讨论。

He has a really interesting discussion about this.

他谈到帕特里奇与他的老师——至少是这位早期作者约翰·加德伯里——发生了分歧，帕特里奇在第一本书中曾非常推崇并积极评价他。

And he just talks about how Partridge had a falling out with I guess his teacher or at least with this earlier author John Gadbury who he was very fond of and speaks of favorably in his first book.

但十四年后，他却用各种负面语言来提及他。

But then fourteen years later, he's referring to him with all sorts of negative language.

看起来帕特里奇经历了一种转变，这种转变不仅仅是技术层面的，他还攻击那些他认为不好的其他占星家，无论出于什么原因。

It seems like there was some transformation that Partridge went through that wasn't just a technical transformation, but he was also like attacking other astrologers who he viewed as bad for whatever reason.

是的。

Yeah.

所以这可能也是部分原因。

So maybe that was partially a contributing factor.

我不确定这在多大程度上是促成因素， versus 受到普拉西杜斯技术论点的影响或其他因素。

I don't know how much that was a contributing factor as well versus just being swayed by the technical arguments of Placidus or what have you.

你是说占星家之间因为观点不同就不存在敌意和敌对情绪吗？

Well, are you saying that there aren't hostilities and animosities between astrologers who have different opinions?

是的。

Yeah.

我只是想指出，有时候现代和古代之间存在相似之处，我最近和尼娜·格里芬讨论过这个话题，也许我们可以做一个关于历史上占星师内部争斗的节目，尤其是在十七世纪，那时这种争斗开始被更详细地记录下来。

Well, I'm just bringing up the point that sometimes again parallels in modern times with ancient times and this is one of the ones I was talking to Nina Griffin recently about maybe doing an episode about infighting among astrologers in history especially in the seventeenth century where it starts being much more well documented.

当时出现了许多有趣的小派系或小团体，他们彼此争斗，有时师生之间也会闹翻，然后互相恶语相向；这些占星师之间的个人纠纷，有时起初只是私人恩怨，但后来却演变成专业层面的冲突，甚至影响到占星传统本身。

There's all these funny little cliques or these little groups that started into fighting with each other or sometimes teachers and students who would have a falling out and then they would speak harshly of each other and that sometimes these personal disputes between astrologers that start out as personal turn into things that become professional or sometimes affect the astrological tradition.

因此，我们有时认为是纯粹技术性分歧、源于技术立场的观点，实际上有时可能源于人与人之间的私人矛盾，你知道的。

So sometimes what we might think or what's even put forward as technical disagreements that are supposedly coming from technical places can sometimes be coming from personal disputes between people that Your know each

你那期关于全宫制是最优系统的播客，可是招了不少批评。

podcast on whole sign houses being the best system, you got a lot of heat for.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这真是个很好的例子。

I mean, that's a good example.

甚至在某种程度上，1990年代Project Hindsight的分裂部分源于个人矛盾，这些矛盾最终演变为专业争端，并因此不幸地改变了历史。

Or even to some extent Project Hindsight and the breaking up of Project Hindsight in the 1990s I think was partially due to personal issues that eventually became a professional dispute and then changed history a little bit as a result of that sadly.

但这可能是个值得讨论的话题。

But that might be something to talk about.

我们可以先把这个放一放。

Can kind of shelve that now.

我看看能不能找到

I'll see I can find

我只是觉得占星师和普通人一样，也有自己的缺点，有时会做出疯狂的事。

I just think astrologers are human like everybody else and we have our foibles and do crazy things at times.

是的。

Yeah.

在看待这些人物时，重要的是要记住，他们有时会被技术论点影响，有时则会被个人情绪左右。

It's just important to keep that in mind when it comes to some of these people that sometimes they might be swayed by technical arguments and other times they might be swayed by personal issues.

我actually找到了。

I actually found it.

所以马丁·甘斯顿在他的书中——这本书非常精彩，我希望将来能就这本书对他进行采访——书名为《主向法：占星术的古老大师技法》

So Martin Ganston in his book which is amazing and I hope to interview him about it at some point titled, Primary Directions, Astrology's Old Master Technique

哪

which

由韦塞克斯占星出版社于2009年出版。

was published by the Wessex astrologer in 2009.

我认为你曾经参考过或引用过这本书

And I believe you drew on this or cited this

是的，你的某些内容确实很棒，这是一本极好的书。

in Yeah, some of your that's an excellent, excellent book.

好的。

Okay.

所以他谈到约翰·帕特里奇，并指出他在1679年出版了第一部作品，还提到这是一本小册子。

So he says that he's talking about John Partridge and he says in 1679 he published his first work and he notes that it's a small book.

在开头，他说书中包含了一篇作者撰写的颂词信。

And in the beginning, he says it contained a laudatory epistle by the author.

他提到了我的好朋友约翰·帕特里奇。

And he refers to my good friend John Partridge.

是的，基本上他说，约翰·加德伯里——这位天体科学的学生——为我的好朋友约翰·帕特里奇的读者写了一篇赞美的序言。

Yeah, well, basically says a laudatory epistle by John Gadbury, student in the sidereal science unto the readers of my good friend John Partridge.

所以，加德伯里在帕特里奇的第一本书中写了些赞美之词，他们之间一定有个人联系，或者加德伯里曾是帕特里奇的老师。

So basically, Gadbury wrote something positive for Partridge in his first book and they must have been connected personally or his teachers.

但十四年后，帕特里奇出版了他的第二本书《重订之作》。

But then fourteen years later, Partridge publishes his second book, Opus Reformatum, Reformed Work.

他说，加德伯里在书中摒弃了中世纪占星家的教义，转而支持托勒密和普拉西杜斯，尽管后者很少被点名提及。

And he says, Gadbury says, in which he rejected the doctrines of the medieval astrologers in favor of Ptolemy and Placidus, although the latter is rarely mentioned by name.

更具体地说，这本书旨在驳斥加德伯里，书中几乎每一页都对他进行辱骂，不仅指责他是个无能、无知且不诚实的占星师，还称他为叛徒和变节者。

More particularly, the book sets out to refute Gadbury who is abused on nearly every page of the book not only as an incompetent, ignorant, and dishonest astrologer, but also as a traitor and a turncoat.

这场激烈攻击的背景是，加德伯里在十七世纪末英格兰王位继承的宗教政治斗争中，逐渐表现出对天主教的同情。

The background of this bitter attack lay in Gadbury's newfound Catholic sympathies during the religio political struggle over the English throne towards the end of the seventeenth century.

然后，甘森继续说道。

And then Ganson goes on.

他说，帕特里奇自己的立场支持议会，尤其是奥利弗·克伦威尔，书中详细讨论了克伦威尔的星盘和普拉西杜斯方位等。

He says, Partridge's own sympathies lay with the parliament and in particular Oliver Cromwell whose nativity and Placidian directions are discussed extensively in the book, etcetera, etcetera.

它继续说道，帕特里奇绝不是当时唯一一位认真采纳普拉西杜斯学说的英国占星师。

It just keeps going on and says, Partridge was by no means the only English astrologer of his day to take Placidian teachings to heart.

其他人还包括理查德·柯克里和约翰·毕晓普，他们几年前出版了《占星术精髓》，这是对普拉西杜斯原著的未署名且有所简化的译本，几乎没有添加原创内容。

Others included Richard Kirby and John Bishop who had a few years before had published The Marrow of Astrology, an unacknowledged and somewhat abbreviated translation of Placidus' own work with very little original content added.

但毫无疑问，帕特里奇在推动普拉西杜斯体系于英格兰的革命中最具影响力，并由此使普拉西杜斯成为现代西方占星术的奠基人。

But there is little doubt that Partridge was the most influential in bringing about the Placidian revolution in England and by extension in making Placidus the grandfather of modern Western astrology.

是的。

Yeah.

普拉西杜斯是个重要人物。

Placidus was a big deal.

帕特里奇也是个重要人物。

Partridge was a big deal.

他之所以倾向于普拉西杜斯，有一些技术上的原因，同时可能也涉及一些个人因素。

There were some technical reasons he was drawn to Placidus and there was also potentially some personal stuff going on at the same time.

但这时占星术在欧洲已经急剧衰落，正从大学和整个知识界中消失。

But this is when astrology is already in steep decline in Europe and it's like falling out of the universities and falling out of the intelligentsia in general.

因此，到这个时候，占星术的实践已经进入了一个持续一两百年的低谷期。

So we're going into like a century or two low period for the practice of astrology by this point anyways.

对。

Right.

但它并没有消失，只是暂时沉寂了。

But it doesn't disappear, it just subsides.

当然。

Sure.

在这一低谷期，比如，占星师数量减少，几百年间出版的占星书籍也少了很多。

So in that low period when there's like, for example, less, there's fewer astrologers and there's fewer books on astrology that are being published for a couple of centuries.

其中一本流传下来的是威廉·利利的著作，它在十九世纪某时被以删节版重新出版。

One of the books that is transmitted is William Lilly's book which is republished at some point in the nineteenth century in an abridged form.

这就是著名的扎德基尔版利利著作，他删减了威廉·利利的《基督教占星学》，同时进行了更新并添加了一些新内容。

And this is the famous Zadkiel edition of Lilly where he abbreviated William Lilly's Christian Astrology and he also updated it and added some new things.

但他做的一件我觉得特别有趣的事是，尽管利利在1647年原版的《基督教占星学》中使用了雷戈蒙塔努斯宫位系统，并包含了一个计算雷戈蒙塔努斯宫头的表格。

But one of the things that he did that I find really interesting is that he took even though Lilly used Regiomantanus houses and he included a table for calculating Regiomantanus house cusps in Christian Astrology in the original book from 1647.

在扎德基尔版中，他删掉了雷戈蒙塔努斯的表格，换成了普拉西杜斯宫位的表格。

In the Zadkiel edition, he removes that table of Regiomantanus and replaces it with a table of Placidus houses.

我

I

我不确定他是否添加了，得查一下。

don't know if he did put I'd have to look.

我知道他删掉了雷戈蒙塔努斯的表格。

I know he removed the Regio tables.

我不确定他是用普拉西杜斯表格替代了它们，还是干脆把表格全删了。

I don't know if he put Placidus tables in their place or just left tables out altogether.

哦，他是直接全删了。

Oh, he just took it out altogether.

明白了。

Okay.

我得查一下。

I'd have to look.

我觉得他没有添加新的表格。

I don't think he put new tables in.

我不确定他是把所有星盘都重新用Placidus计算了，还是只是保留了Lilly原始的Regio星盘。

And I'm not sure whether he recast all the charts in Placidus or whether he just kept Lilly's original Regio charts.

我真的得查一下。

I just have to look.

我不知道。

I don't know.

好的。

Okay.

也许是我理解错了。

Maybe that was something I misunderstood.

但你确实说他至少移除了Regiomantanus的表格。

But you did say that he at least removed the Regiomantanus tables.

对。

Right.

因为Regio已经不再使用了。

Because Regio wasn't being used anymore.

对。

Right.

所以Placidus已经

So Placidus had already

取代了

taken

并部分由于像Partridge这样的人而普及开来。

over and become popularized partially due to guys like Partridge.

你看，我写那段话时想表达的是，因为他是在缩写Lilly的原始文本，所以他完全可以直接复制Regio表格。

See, the point I was making when I wrote that was that because he was abridging Lilly's original texts, he could easily have just reproduced Regio tables.

好的。

Okay.

然后这些表格就会对所有人开放。

And then they would have been available to everybody.

但他故意在简化的文本中删除了这些表格。

But he deliberately chose to eliminate those tables from the abridged text.

明白了。

Got it.

好的。

Okay.

因此这可能影响了历史的发展。当我们进入20世纪初的占星家时，会发现19世纪末和20世纪初，艾伦·利奥使用的是普拉西杜斯宫位系统，因为当时这在英国已成为标准做法。

And so that may have influenced history to So some then when we get to the early twentieth century astrologers, we find in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century, Alan Leo was using Placidus houses since that had become the standard practice in England at that point.

对。

Right.

在利奥之前是卢克·布鲁顿。

And before Leo was Luke Brouton.

我不确定我有没有写过这一点。

I don't know if I wrote that.

我想我可能放了一张关于卢克·布鲁顿的幻灯片，是其中一张。

I think I might have put a slide with Luke Brouton, one of the slides.

好的。

Okay.

让我快速找一下。

Let me find that really quick.

那可能在最后面。

That's probably toward the end.

最后两张幻灯片。

The last two slides.

因为有些人看不清，卢克·丹尼斯·布鲁顿是个英国人。

Because some people can't see this, Luke Dennis Brouton was a British guy.

他和他哥哥都在英国利兹学习过占星术。

He and his brother had both learned astrology in Leeds, England.

他出生于1828年，大约在1840年来到美国，我想是为了学习自然疗法医学。

He's born in 1828 and then in 1840 roughly he came to The United States I think to study naturopathic medicine.

但他很快成为了一名占星师，从1860年到1869年出版了一本月度占星期刊，并于1898年出版了《占星学要素》一书。

But he quickly became an astrologer, published a monthly astrology journal from 1860 to 'sixty nine, and then wrote a book, The Elements of Astrology published in 1898.

他是一位极具影响力的英国占星师，最早在美国广泛教授占星学，而他自己是通过普拉西杜斯宫位系统学习占星的，也因此传授这一方法。

He was a very influential British astrologer who began teaching a lot of people in The United States astrology and he learned astrology using Placidus houses and that's what he taught.

对于能看清的人，我复制了他在书中绘制的星盘。

For those who can see it, I reproduced his chart which he drew in his book.

他还在自己的著作中引用了普拉西杜斯的方法。

And he also cites Placidus in his text.

下一张幻灯片。

That's the next slide.

好的。

Okay.

明白了。

Got it.

他当时使用的是1789年西布利的译本。

Just so he was using a 1789 Sibley translation.

所以，著名的美国西布利星盘中的西布利也把普拉西杜斯的代表作翻译成了英文。

So Sibley of the famous Sibley USA chart actually translated Placidus' magnum opus into English as well.

好的。

Okay.

所以普拉西杜斯的著作至少有多个英文译本。

So there were multiple translations of Placidus' Yeah.

就我们所知的最少有，是的。

Least we work know of, yeah.

好的。

Okay.

那这是一个非常重要的观点。

That's a really important point then.

普拉西杜斯于1650年出版了他的著作，不仅在英语国家，至少在天主教会禁止的范围内，而且至少有三种不同的英文译本，翻译了普拉西杜斯著作的部分或全部内容。

So Placidus published his work in 1650 and not only was it only available in English speaking countries at least in terms of being banned by the Catholic church, but there were at least three different translations of parts or all of Placidus' work into English.

因此，对那些知识渊博的占星师来说，这个宫位系统之所以极具吸引力，正是因为这些论点以英文译本的形式流传开来，人们可以直接阅读到他关于为何这种托勒密解读是正确的论述。

And so this became then one of the intellectually for like the intellectual astrologers really compelling things about that system of house division is that those arguments were in circulation in translation that you could actually read in English in terms of his arguments about why this interpretation of Ptolemy was correct.

是的

Yeah.

再回到西布利，西布利是一位著名且有影响力的占星家。

And just to get back to Sibley, Sibley was a prominent and influential astrologer.

所以到了1789年，人们仍在阅读普拉西杜斯的著作。

So in 1789, people were reading Placidus.

好的。

Okay.

是的

Yeah.

伊本·埃兹拉和西布利，你提到他出版了美国最早的星盘之一。

Ibn Ezra Sibley who published, you said, one of the first horoscopes of The United

美国建国的星盘，是的。

Founding The United States, yeah.

这正是我和妮娜·格里芬正在制作的一集，我们希望下个月能完成。

That's an episode Nina Griffin and I are working on actually hopefully we're gonna do next month.

然后，卢克·布罗顿是美国一位非常著名且有影响力的占星家。

And then Luke Broughton was a very famous and influential astrologer in America, The United States.

这意味着此时占星术并不仅限于英国，美国其中一位更著名的占星家也在使用并推崇。

So then that means this is not just restricted to England at this point, instead one of the more prominent astrologers in The US also is using and endorsing

课程。

classes.

他使用这种方法，学生也因此在学习它。

Using it and students are learning it because he used it.

好的。

Okay.

完美。

Perfect.

你幻灯片上提到，布雷顿从1860年到1869年出版的《每月行星读者与占星期刊》，以及他1898年的占星学教材，都使用了普拉西杜斯宫位系统。

And then on your slide here, it just says that Bratten's Monthly Planetary Reader and Astrological Journal from 1860 to 1869 used Placidus houses as did his 1898 textbook on astrology.

嗯。

Mhmm.

明白了。

Got it.

好的。

Okay.

这就把我们带到了现代。

So that's bringing us all the way up to modern times.

艾伦·利奥也是另一位伟大的普及者。

And Alan Leo was also another great popularizer.

他通常被认为重新普及了占星术，并在20世纪初推动了西方英语国家占星术的复兴。

He's usually at least attributed having the role of repopularized astrology and helped to spur the revival of astrology especially in English speaking countries in the West in the early twentieth century.

他在他的众多著作中使用了普拉西杜斯宫位，因为他出版了大约十几本书，是的。

He used Placidus houses in his many because he published something like a dozen books, Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

我们来看看。

Let's see.

所以这就把我们带到了当代，二十世纪早期的占星家们普遍使用普拉西杜斯宫位系统。

So that's bringing us all the way up to the present time where the early twentieth century astrologers tended to use Placidus.

这也意味着普拉西杜斯宫位表被印刷出版并广泛传播，于是我们再次陷入了一种循环：系统的可用性部分源于它被当作托勒密理论的诠释而获得的智力可信度。

And this also meant that tables of houses for Placidus were printed up and became widely available so that we start getting into that circular thing again in terms of availability partially coming from the intellectual credibility that the system had in being this supposed interpretation of Ptolemy.

但同时，它也开始广泛普及，我确信即使那些并没有阅读托勒密著作或追随整个文本与历史论证的人，也在使用它，因为如果像艾伦·利奥这样的占星家都认可，而宫位表又唾手可得，人们自然就会基于这种先例开始使用它，对吧。

But then also it started becoming widely available so that I'm sure even people that weren't necessarily reading Ptolemy or following that whole textual argument or historical argument were also using it because then if it's endorsed by astrologers like Alan Leo and the tables are widely available, then people are just gonna start using it based on that precedent Right.

伊万杰琳·亚当斯使用普拉西杜斯系统。

Evangeline Adams used Placidus.

她在二十世纪头几十年里极具影响力。

She was quite influential in the first several decades of the twentieth century.

好的。

Okay.

还有没有其他重要的占星家也支持普拉西杜斯系统，值得提及的？

Are there any other major astrologers like that that are worth mentioning that endorsed Placidus?

我觉得我在谷歌文档里备注过，在法国，沃尔金深入研究并撰写了一本关于太阳回归的书，影响了直到20世纪70年代的大量占星家。

I think I put a note on the Google Docs that in France, Volguin who extensively studied and wrote a book on solar returns which influenced a huge number of astrologers up through about the 1970s.

最初用法语撰写，但他的书籍被翻译成了英语、西班牙语以及其他语言。

Initially wrote in French, but his books were translated into English and Spanish and maybe other languages.

他还出版了一本期刊，时间从20世纪30年代末持续到70年代，这是一本研究期刊，他和学生们亲自研究了数千张星盘和太阳回归图，证明了普拉西杜斯宫头在太阳回归预测中是非常敏感的点。

And he published a journal that went I think from the late '30s to the 1970s, a research journal in which he and his students literally studied thousands of charts, solar returns and demonstrated that Placidus cusps were very sensitive points in predicting from solar returns.

因此，至少在法国的沃尔金占星学派中，有着大量的实证依据或展示。

So there was a great deal of empirical justification, at least demonstration by the Volguin School of Astrology in France.

他尤其在法国、欧洲，以及后来在翻译成英文后，对美国和英国也产生了巨大影响。

And he was quite influential especially in France but in Europe and eventually in The United States and England when the books got translated.

他主张在太阳回归中使用普拉西杜斯宫位系统。

And he espoused the use of Placidus with solar returns.

这不仅仅是理论，他会不断展示实例，说明预测如何如预期般准确。

And it wasn't just theoretical, he would show example after example of how the predictions worked as you would expect.

当然。

Sure.

对。

Right.

好的。

Okay.

所以到了二十世纪，我说过，普拉西杜斯系统成为主要的宫位系统，有了现成的宫位表。

So then in the twentieth century, I was saying, Placidus becomes the primary system that houses are available for, tables of houses are available.

这一点很重要，因为手工计算星盘时，需要宫位表来计算宫头，这简化了原本就相当繁琐的数学过程——如果有人曾经手工计算过星盘，就会明白这一点，而过去几十年刚进入这一领域的人可能还没经历过。

This is important because when calculating a chart by hand, need a table of houses to calculate house cusps which simplifies some of the mathematics involved in what is already kind of a tedious process if you're calculating charts by hand if anyone's ever done that before which some people that have just gotten into the field in the past couple of decades haven't necessarily.

此外，占星师的一个值得注意的点是，他们通常并不具备很高的天文学技能。

Additionally, astrologers, one of the points that's maybe worth making here is that astrologers don't always tend to be highly skilled in astronomy.

虽然他们在解读星盘、择时或其他方面往往非常专注，这些过程本身也可能需要高度专业的技术，但他们并不总是精通背后的天文学知识，因为即使手工计算星盘，也不一定需要完全理解这些天文学背景。

While they tend to be more focused on interpreting charts in the act of chart interpretation or of timing or other things which can still be highly detailed technical processes or skills to acquire, they're not always hugely skilled in the background astronomy because that's not necessary even to some extent to calculate charts by hand.

如果你有宫位表和星历表，只要知道步骤，就可以在不完全理解普拉西杜斯、雷吉奥蒙塔努斯或其他宫位系统之间技术差异的情况下，计算出一个出生星盘，对吧？

If you have a table of houses, if you have an ephemeris, can calculate a birth chart just by knowing the steps to do without even fully, fully understanding all of the technical arguments behind Placidus as a house system versus Regiomantanus versus whatever, right?

是的，也不完全是。

Yes and no.

我的意思是，一般来说，但如果你在使用主向法这类技术时，了解行星的纬度就很重要，因为大多数行星并不位于黄道上。

Mean, generally, But if you're doing techniques like primary directions, it's important to know the latitude of the planet because most planets are not on the ecliptic.

虽然

Although

这很有趣，因为主向法已经不再流行了。

that's funny because primary directions fell out.

这很有趣，比如艾伦·利奥推广次级进展时，二十世纪开始主导的是一些更简化的定时技术，比如次级进展和行运。

That's one of the things that's funny about like Alan Leo, for example, promoting primarily secondary progressions is that much more simplified timing techniques start to dominate in the twentieth century like secondary progressions and transits.

而像主向法这样更复杂、高级的技术似乎在某种程度上变得不那么流行了。

And the more complicated advanced techniques like primary directions seem like they fell out of vogue a little bit to some extent.

我觉得是这样。

I think they have.

我觉得这很遗憾，因为它们是非常好、非常强大的技术。

I think that's unfortunate because they're very good and very powerful techniques.

当然。

Sure.

这没问题。

And that's fine.

我只是想指出，关于这种历史争论，很大程度上都与不同的宫位系统交织在一起，尤其是与主向法以及托勒密对这两者的处理方式相关。

Was just pointing that out in terms of so much of this historical argument has been wrapped up of this different systems of house division has been wrapped up in the issue with primary directions and Ptolemy's treatment of those two things being intertwined.

但有趣的是，到了二十世纪，除了占星术变得简化之外，另一个变化是主向法逐渐被边缘化，而更容易计算的次向法却变得越来越突出。

But it's interesting that by the twentieth century, one of the other things that happens in addition to astrology getting simplified is that other piece of it, primary directions kind of falling by the wayside as a technique and instead secondary progressions which is much simpler to calculate becomes much more prominent.

因此，随着计算机占星术的出现

So eventually with the advent of computerized astrology

次向法其实是普拉西杜斯发明的。

The secondary progressions were an invention of Placidus.

是的。

Yeah.

那本该是普拉西杜斯另外一项贡献，但我最近在阅读时发现，据甘斯顿或可能是霍尔登所说，普拉西杜斯误读了托勒密的原文，以为托勒密在谈论我们现在所称的次向法——即用一天对应一个人的一岁；但实际上，普拉西杜斯从中获得灵感并发展出次向法的那段文字，托勒密原本只是在讨论年度进运法——也就是每年向前推进一个星座。

That was supposed to be one of the other things that he Except I was just reading and I believe it was Ganston or possibly Holden that said that that was another thing that Placidus read into Ptolemy where he thought Ptolemy was talking about this technique which we know as secondary progressions where you just basically you equivalate, which is not a word, one day for each year of the native's But in fact, the passage where Placidus got that and developed secondary progressions as a result was actually Ptolemy was just talking about profections like annual profections where you just count one sign per year forward.

但我刚才想说的是，对你提到现代占星师使用这些非常简单的技术（比如次向法）的补充：

But the point I was making was was a follow-up to your comment that modern astrologers use all these very simple techniques like secondary progressions.

不管普拉西杜斯的动机如何，他们确实要归功于他。

Well, they owe that to Placidus, whatever his motivation was.

他真是个天才，拥有那么多富有创意的想法。

He was such a genius, he had so many creative ideas.

英国占星师们对此着迷，因为他给了我们二次推运法，无论其起源如何，也不管这是否是个错误。

And this is what the British astrologers were fascinated by that he gave us secondary progressions regardless of the origin or whether it was a mistake or not.

它们可能是我们所拥有的最广泛使用的预测工具之一。

And they're probably one of the most widely used predictive tools that we have.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，一种技术，即使它源于误解，或者只是因为一个新的技术概念。

And I mean, a technique just because it's let's say a misunderstanding or just because a new technical concept.

这正是我的一位老师罗伯特·施密特一直强调的，我觉得这是一个非常棒的观点。

This is something that one of my teachers that Robert Schmidt always really emphasized and I thought it was a great point.

他从数学中得出了这个结论，我认为他是在说，代数或微积分，或者某些高级形式，都是源于对早期作者所做内容的误解。

And he drew this conclusion from mathematics which is that I think he was saying like algebra or calculus or something or some advanced forms of it developed out of a misunderstanding of what earlier authors were doing.

有时候，某些领域中的创造性发展，确实可能源于对古代占星师本意的误解，而这些发展本身可能是有效的。

And that sometimes there can be creative developments in fields that can be valid developments that develop out of a misunderstanding of what an ancient astrologer was trying to say.

因为有时在试图阅读和理解古代文本及古代占星家的过程中，这个过程本身可能具有创造性，能打开你原本看不到的视角，即使这并非那位原始占星家的本意。

Because sometimes in the process of trying to read an ancient text and understand an ancient astrologer, it can be a creative process that opens things up that you otherwise wouldn't have seen even if that wasn't the original astrologer's intention.

是的，我认为这是对的。

Yeah, I think that's true.

所以这显然是合理的，我们必须为这种可能性留出空间——有时误解确实能带来积极的创造性发展。

So it's like that's certainly valid and we have to make room for that, that there can sometimes be positive creative developments that derive from a misunderstanding.

但与此同时，我们也必须认识到并承认，托勒密的这段文字至少催生了三种，也许是四种不同的宫位划分体系。

But then at the same time, we also have to recognize and acknowledge that this one passage of Ptolemy generated three at least maybe four different discrete forms of house division.

而所有这些都可能是对原著者本意的误解。

And all of them may have been misinterpretations of what the original author was attempting to say.

因此，这里存在一些值得怀疑的地方，我们必须意识到或保持开放的态度，去看待这一技术的起源或形成过程。

And so, there's something that's a little suspect there that we have to also be aware of or open to in terms of the origin or the generation of this technique.

但另一种看待方式是，托勒密当时正面对某个特定问题，并提出了一个解决方案，但人们并没有完全理解。

But another way to frame that is that Ptolemy was dealing with a certain problem and he came up with a solution that people didn't quite understand.

而在他们努力理解他是如何解决这个问题的过程中，他们提出了其他富有创造性的方法来解决同一个问题。

And in their efforts to understand how he solved the problem, they came up with other creative ways to solve the same problem.

好的。

Okay.

是的，这种表述方式很好。

Yeah, that's a good way of framing it.

我喜欢这个说法。

I like that.

但你可以提出不同的论点。

But there's just different arguments you can make.

因为所有这些问题都是相互交织的，涉及天文学技术层面、哲学层面，甚至历史或文本分析方面的考量。

And because all of these issues are intertwined and it's tied up with technical astronomical considerations, it's tied up with philosophical considerations, it's tied up with even historical or textual analysis type considerations.

在这些不同体系的产生过程中，有很多复杂因素在起作用。

There's a lot going on here in terms of the generation of some of these different systems.

到了最近几十年，随着计算机占星术和网站的出现，普拉西杜斯系统在计算出生星盘时常常成为默认的宫位划分系统。

Eventually, once you get to the past few decades to more recent times with the advent of computerized astrology and websites, Placidus was often the default system of house division when you go to calculate like a birth chart or something.

对于我这一代人来说，我在2000年左右通过astro.com或Astrodienst网站开始学习占星术时，普拉西杜斯系统作为astro.com的默认系统是个大事，因为这意味着那是你最先接触的系统。

And for people of my generation where I started learning astrology around the year 2000 through the website astro.com or through astrodienst, Placidus being the default on astro.com was a big deal because that means that that's the first system that you start with.

因此，这些解释的准确性或不准确性部分取决于这一点。

And the accuracy or inaccuracy of the interpretations then partially depends on that.

所以，反对这一点而采用其他形式的宫位划分，往往意味着拒绝你最初所学的内容，有时也意味着拒绝那些最初吸引你进入占星学、让你觉得这种解读令人信服的因素——比如你对自身星盘的共鸣。

And so to go against that and go with some other form of house division often means rejecting what you first learned, but also rejecting sometimes what drew you to astrology or made you think that that was compelling in the first place if you resonated with that interpretation of your birth chart or what have you.

因此，基于这些原因以及我们上面列出的某些原因，或许还有一些我们未深入探讨的原因，这就是为什么普拉西杜斯系统如今成为最受欢迎的宫位划分方法。

So for these and some of the reasons that we've listed above and maybe some we didn't go into, those are the reasons why Placidus is the most popular system of house division today.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，从帕奇开始的英国占星师们阅读了普拉西杜斯的著作，被他的思想所折服，认为他是对的。

I mean, I think it's basically the British astrologers from Partridge forward who read Placidus and were compelled by his thinking thought that he had it right.

于是他们推广了这种方法，持续使用它，教导学生，使得它在接下来的几个世纪里成为英国占星协会内被广泛接受的占星方式。

And so they popularized it, continued to use it, taught their students, and it became the way to do astrology that was accepted in the group, the Astrological Society in England for a couple of centuries.

这种传统延续了下来，因为在美國，人们基本上是从英国占星师那里学习占星术的。

That just carried forward because in The United States, basically learned astrology from the British astrologers.

对。

Right.

而在过去几十年占星术复兴的过程中，来自美国和英国的英语占星书籍似乎经常被翻译成其他语言，有时甚至会影响其他国家或语言地区的占星实践，这一点目前看来似乎确实如此。

And then with astrology being revived so much over the past few decades, it seems like the output of astrology books from English speaking countries from The US and from The UK often get translated into other languages and can sometimes have the effect of influencing sometimes even astrology in other countries or other languages at this point it seems like.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

如果你写过几本书，有没有哪一本被翻译成其他语言了？

And if you've written a few books, have any of your books been translated into other languages?

你提到这个还真是巧。

Funny you should mention that.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得《霍里》那本书已经被翻译成俄语了。

The Horii book I think is in Russian.

好的。

Okay.

我的塔罗牌书籍已经被翻译成西班牙语、日语和俄语。

The tarot books are in Spanish, Japanese and Russian.

我认为还有一本盗版的中文版。

And I think there's a pirated Chinese edition.

有人从中国给我写信，问了我书中一个问题，他说他读的是中文版。

Someone from China wrote to me about a question in my book and he'd read in Chinese.

我说，我不记得我出过中文版。

I said, I don't think I have a Chinese edition.

嗯，有中文版，但和我的出版社没关系。

Well, do, but it has nothing to do with my publisher.

是有人翻译的。

Somebody translated it.

是的。

Yeah.

我知道艾伦·利奥的书就是如此，他之所以有影响力，部分原因是他二十世纪初的英文著作非常流行，后来有些被翻译成了法语、德语和其他语言。

And I know like Alan Leo's books were That was one of the reasons why he was influential is that his books were very popular in English in the early twentieth century and then they were translated in some instances into like French and German and other languages.

这也就将普拉西杜斯体系传播到了那些国家。

That then would have exported Placidus into those countries.

实际上在印度，有一个完整的KP系统，即克里希纳穆提系统。

And actually Placidus in India, there's this whole KP system, the Krishnamurti system.

你听说过这个系统吗？

Do you know about that system?

只了解一点点，不过你继续说吧。

Only a little bit, but go ahead.

他基本上采用了西方的Placidus和Clacidus宫位系统，以及Placidus的空间时间概念。

Basically, he took the Western idea of Placidus and Clacidus house cusps and the Placidian idea of space time.

他将所谓的‘大限’和‘小限’——即一个主星和一个次主星——这种基于时间的系统，转换成了空间概念，类似于黄道释放法，只不过事物是按时间推移的。

And he converted the dashas which are you have a planet that's a major lord and a sub lord which is a time based just like zodiacal releasing where things go through time.

他将这种系统转化为空间形式，即在本命图上确定一个点，然后利用Placidus宫头的主宰星与Vimshottari大限之间的关系来进行解读。

He converted that into space where the point would be on the natal chart and then uses the rulers of Placidus cusp as they relate to the dashas, the Vimshottari dashas to make interpretations.

使用这个系统的人说它非常准确。

The people who use it say it's very accurate.

我在印度认识一个人，他的叔叔就 practicing 这种占星术。

Someone I know in India, his uncle practices this form of astrology.

他说他叔叔能精确到分钟做预测，比如‘我的信会在12点42分到’，然后邮差真的在12点42分来了。

He says his uncle can make predictions down to the minute like, Oh, my letter will arrive at 12:42 and then the postman comes at 12:42.

我的意思是，这到底是不是真的，我不确定。

So I mean, whether that's true or not, I don't know.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，就这个系统的技术准确性而言，我以前问过你，但为了再明确一下，你个人平时用哪种宫位划分系统？

I mean, in terms of the technical accuracy of the system, I asked you this before, but maybe to reiterate, what system of house division do you use personally?

我在尝试各种方法。

I experiment.

我不认为任何一种系统是绝对正确的。

I'm not convinced any of them is true.

如果我做命盘，通常会同时使用整宫制和普拉西杜斯制。

If I do natal charts, I generally use both whole sign and Placidus.

我会参考两种系统。

I look at both.

好的。

Okay.

我喜欢印度体系，他们把普拉西杜斯宫头放在整宫里，并将其作为一个整体来解读。

And I like actually the Indian system where they put the Placidus cusps in the whole signs and interpret it as a unit.

事实上，我是从马里努斯那里学到的，我还跟查理·奥伯特提起过。

In fact, I learned this from Marinus and I mentioned it to Charlie Obert.

当我翻译第18卷时，有一段提到瑞典国王阿方索、古斯塔夫、古斯塔夫·阿方索的星盘。

When I was translating Book 18, there's a passage where he's discussing the chart of King Alfonso of Sweden, Gustaf, Gustaf Alphonse.

这位国王在异国他乡的战场上阵亡。

And the king dies in battle in a foreign country.

马里努斯说，如果你看他的星盘，会发现他的土星落在第八宫（雷吉奥曼图斯宫），且处于弱势状态。

And Marinus says, Well, if you look at his chart, he's got a debilitated Saturn in the eighth Regiomantanus house.

所以这很可能就是导致他死亡的原因。

So that's probably what's gonna kill him.

但这个第八雷吉奥曼图斯宫实际上是上升点之后的第九个星座。

But the eighth Regiomantanus house is really the ninth sign from the Ascendant.