如何进行占星咨询

这绝对是可能的，你也可以那样做。但占星术总是会在你至少有一些背景信息的情况下效果更好。

That's definitely possible and you can do that, But it's just that astrology always works better if you do have at least some context.

这甚至包括像预测这样的事情，你知道，关于未来的预测就是你试图从现状出发，基于当前的轨迹，判断事情在未来关于某个话题或生活领域会发展到什么地步。

That even includes things like predictions where, you know, prediction about the future is that you're trying to go from the present and say based on the current trajectory, this is where things are going to end up with this topic or this area of your life in the future.

而占星术能帮助你弄清楚事情最终会走向什么样的终点。

And the astrology helps you figure out what the endpoint is of where things are going to end up.

但如果你试图确定轨迹，那么了解从过去到现在的轨迹，将比你对过去一无所知时，更能帮助你校准未来的轨迹。

But if you're trying to determine trajectory, then knowing the past trajectory up to the present is just gonna help you to calibrate the future trajectory even better than you would if you don't know anything about the past.

所以，这就是为什么背景信息很重要的一部分原因。

So that's part of why context is important.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

而且我认为，在我早期的时候，我会利用预咨询通话，或者不管我们怎么称呼它，来为我自己解读风格设定背景，因为我从客户那里收到了太多问题。

And I think for me early on, I used the pre calls or, you know, whatever we're calling it to also context set my own reading style because I was getting so many questions from clients.

我该搬到墨西哥城去吗？

Do I move to Mexico City?

我应该和这个人分手吗？

Should I break up with this person?

所以我意识到，人们带着期望来进行解读，希望我们能找到非常明确和具体的答案。

So I became aware that people were coming to the readings with the expectation that maybe we would find answers that were very finite and specific.

因此，我开始非常明确地表达我的期望：解读或咨询也是一个协作的意义构建过程。

And so I started to be really clear about my expectation that reading or consultations are also like a collaborative meaning making process.

我知道这非常具体地体现了我个人的解读方式，但我是一个热衷于激活神话想象力，并将星盘配置视为可能性入口的人。

And I know this is where it's very specific to how I read, but I'm someone who is very into, like, activating the mythic imagination and understanding placements as openings.

我并不是一个真正被答案、预测或既定命运所驱动的人。

I'm not someone who's really driven by answers and predictions or fixed fates.

我更感兴趣的是提供多种表达方式，并允许和邀请读者真正投入工作，将他们自己的现实感和自我信任带入这个过程。

I'm someone who's really interested in providing multiple expressions and allowing the reader and inviting them to really do the work of, like, bringing their own kind of reality and sense of self trust into the process.

因为我觉得，除非你邀请他人带入他们自己的理解，否则人们的信息很难真正扎根。

Because I just don't feel like people's information doesn't really stick unless you're inviting other people to bring their own understanding into it.

我觉得他们可能当时会感兴趣，但我认为这算不上一次成功的解读。

I feel like they might be into it in the moment, but I don't think it's a successful reading.

如果某人离开时心想，克里斯真聪明，而不是离开时说，我学到了这个。

If someone leaves being like, Chris is really smart, as opposed to leaving and saying, I learned this.

比如，我学到了新东西，或者对自我认知有了一点新的领悟，而这是克里斯引导的。

I'm like learning something new or having a little revelation about my own self understanding that Chris guided.

对我来说，我的目标从来不是给人留下深刻印象。

Like, to me, that it's not my goal is never to impress.

而且我最近意识到，美国很多教育鼓励我们挥舞知识，这某种程度上变成了一种表演。

It's like and I think my I realized recently that a lot of, like, education in The United States encourages us to wield our knowledge, and it's it kind of becomes a performance.

对吧？

Right?

而且我认为这对我们所有人来说都非常正常。

And I think that's super normal for all of us.

但我认为在这些解读中，意识到这种动态并确保你停下来、尝试找到方法去连接（如果他们真的很安静，但不强迫），比如允许……你知道，占星师们正在尝试做一件相当困难的事。

But I think in these readings, it's really important to become aware of that dynamic and make sure that you're stopping and trying to find ways to connect if they're really quiet without forcing it, like allowing you know, astrologers are trying to do something quite difficult.

如果你没有回头客，只是为某人做一次性的解读，你必须建立信任。

If you don't have a repeating client and you're seeing someone for a one off, you have to build trust.

你需要把事情安排好。

You have to set things up.

这要做的事情很多。

Like, it's a lot to do.

所以我认为，要真正给自己一些宽容和理解，你会逐步完善这个过程。

So I think being really giving yourself that grace and understanding you're gonna fine tune the process.

但我真的希望我们也能对自己能控制的事情负责，也就是要非常注意自己说话的分寸。

But I really hope that we also take accountability for what we can control, which is being really mindful of how much you're talking.

你是否在用他们能理解的语言交流？

Are you speaking in the language they understand?

你是否尽力捕捉非语言信号？

Are you trying your best to pick up on the nonverbal?

我认为，及时确认并配合客户的节奏很重要。

I think just checking in and moving at the speed of the client is important.

因为如果不是这样，你就没有在倾听，也没有真正做好你的工作——你的工作应该是创造意义和建立连接，而不是草草走完流程、应付了事。

Because if it's not, then you're not listening, and you're not really doing your job, which is hopefully meaning making and connecting instead of just running through what you have to run through to get it over with.

对吧？

Right?

希望这不是我们工作的目的。

Hopefully, that's not the point of what we do.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

For sure.

这里面内容真多。

There's so much there.

我刚才在记一些笔记。

I was writing down some notes.

大概有10个不同的主题我想深入探讨，抱歉。

There's, like, 10 different topics I wanna go into Sorry.

继续。

Further.

不。

No.

这很棒。

It's great.

我很喜欢。

I love it.

这让我想到了一些我甚至没想过要去探讨，但我们绝对应该探讨的事情。

It's it's making me think of things I hadn't even thought of that I that I didn't even think of to go into, but that we absolutely should.

但你提到的一个重要观点，我一直都在说，或者与之相关的是，我总说‘提供帮助比证明自己正确更重要’。

But one of the things you said that's important is something that I always say or is connected with that, where I always say it's more important to be helpful than it is to be right.

对我来说，作为一名占星师，我的一个基本目标就是遵循那句医学格言：‘首先，不伤害’。

And that one of your for me, one of my underlying goals as an astrologer is to follow that sort of medical maxim, which is to do no harm.

我认为这对占星师来说也是一个很好的目标。

And I think that's a good goal for astrologers as well.

而且我认为，如果你遵循这一点，有时它会决定你在咨询中可能会做或不做某些事情。

And I think if you follow that, then sometimes it dictates certain things that you might do or not do in a consultation.

其中一个原则是，有时即使你能说出关于一个人生活或未来的事情，也并不意味着你就应该说。

And one of those is that sometimes just because you can say something about a person's life or perhaps about a person's future doesn't necessarily mean that you should.

我认为这可能会引起一些争议，因为不同的占星师对什么该说、什么不该说，或者是否出于担心对客户心理造成伤害而隐瞒星盘中看到的信息，有着不同的立场。

And I think that could be a little controversial because different astrologers have different positions on what's appropriate to say or what's not appropriate to say or whether it's ever appropriate to withhold saying something that you see in the chart out of a fear of it being potentially damaging to the person psychologically.

但就我而言，我始终认为，与其追求正确，不如追求有帮助。

But for me at least where I always fall on that is that it's more important to be helpful than to be right.

因此，你需要在与每位客户初次接触时，大致评估他们对占星学的了解程度，以及他们处理不同类型信息的能力、心理状态，还有他们在某些话题上是否处于敏感阶段。

Therefore, one of the things you have to do relatively early on with each client is kind of gauge the client's knowledge of astrology, but also their ability to handle different types of information and where they're coming from psychologically and if they're in a delicate place when it comes to certain things.

这可能会让你在面对某些话题时，比对待其他客户更加谨慎。

And that might make you more careful about going into certain things than you might with other clients.

比如说，如果你在为一位专业占星师解读星盘，他们更习惯谈论生活或星盘中的困难议题，也理解占星学本身是解释性的，基于象征意义的解读。

Let's say if you're talking to a professional astrologer who you're reading their chart and where they're more comfortable talking about difficult things in their life or in their chart and also understanding that astrology itself is interpretive and is based on interpreting symbolism.

因此，你无法100%确定未来会发生什么，直到未来真正到来，因为占星师在解读星盘时，并不是在看一块能直接显示未来完整画面的水晶球。

And therefore, there's a level of not knowing 100% what's going to happen in the future until the future arrives because ultimately astrologers when you're reading a chart, you're not looking into a crystal ball that shows you like a movie of exactly what's going to happen in the future.

相反，你是在观察一个人出生时刻宇宙的二维图景，并试图通过当时行星排列所呈现的象征意义，推断或推测未来的可能性。

But instead, you're looking at this two dimensional representation of the cosmos at the moment a person was born and you're attempting to infer or deduce things about the future through the symbolism that arises from the planetary alignments at that time.

所以，其中一点就是‘不伤害’，并评估客户听取某些信息的能力水平。

So, that's one of the things is just do no harm and to gauge the client's level of ability to hear certain things.

我非常赞同这一点。

I love that.

而且，你最近一个关于行星神话的视频中的很多内容，我也会采用类似的方法，因为当我运用民间传说或原型时，我注意到它能创造一种安全的引导，对吧？

And a lot of your work in one of your recent videos around the planetary mythologies is something I would offer because when I use folklore or archetypes, I've noticed it creates kind of a safe prompt, right?

所以，如果我在谈论维纳斯的二元性，或者伊什塔尔和珀耳塞福涅，不仅仅是作为爱之女神，还有冥界如何可能增添了深度，对吧？

So if I'm talking about the duality of Venus, just or Ishtar and Persephone not just as goddesses of love, but also how maybe the underworld also adds depth, right?

所以，这也涉及到我们如何首先运用神话或其他参照点，从而创造一个安全的第三方示例，而不是直接指向'你'。

So it's also how do we use mythology or other reference points first so that we create, like, a safe third example instead of saying you.

对吧？

Right?

因为一开始就这么说会有点过于直接，对吧？

Because that's a little bit intense, right, to start with.

哦，伊萨，你的上升星座守护星是金星，落在天蝎座，这是它的陷落位置。

Oh, Isa, your, you know, your ascendant ruler is in Venus, in Scorpio, it's in its detriment.

它当时在逆行。

It was in retrograde.

它与冥王星合相。

It's conjunct Pluto.

你是不是超级激烈？

Are you super intense?

对吧？

Right?

比如，让我直面自己的强烈情感，如果那是我一生的课题，我可能会封闭自己，或者感到被指责。

Like, making me confront my intensity if that's been a lifelong journey for me, I might close-up, or I might feel accused.

对吧？

Right?

或者它可能感觉如此真实，以至于勾起我一些艰难的记忆。

Or it might feel so true that it brings up some tough memories for me.

所以我认为，当我听到并真正投入去了解更多关于金星的知识时，最终发生在我身上的事是，我开始某种程度上为它去污名化，并且开始对金星的二元性和双重性特质真正产生了兴趣。

And so I think when I heard, when I really leaned into learning more about Venus, what ended up happening for me was I started to kind of un shame it, and I started to get really interested in the duality and the dualistic registers of Venus.

我开始认同这个原型，并理解珀耳塞福涅坠入冥界如何为她增添了深度，就像，塞壬那样，你知道，那种对欲望的执着。

And I started to identify with the archetype and understand how Persephone's descent into the underworld adds depth to her, like, siren, you know, kind of commitment to desire.

所以这帮助我消除了一些羞耻感。

And so that helps me kind of take some of the shame away.

通过民间传说，它给了我一种方法，再次增添了内容，它激活了神话想象力，这让我不再像过去那样感到如此绝望。

And through folklore, it gives me, like, an approach that adds, again, it activates the mythic imagination, which doesn't make me feel so doomed like it used to.

对吧？

Right?

所以我觉得你的很多工作也真的帮到了我，就像，哇哦。

So I think a lot of your work has really helped me too of, like, oh, wow.

这种第三方的参照点给了我空间，让我看清这件感觉如此切身、如此个人化、常常又很可怕的事情。

This kind of third reference point is giving me space to see this thing that feels so visceral and so personal and oftentimes scary.

它让我有能力建立一种感觉非常有趣且富有创造性的连接，并且让它变得轻松了一些。

It gives me an ability to create a connection that feels really interesting and generative, and it and it lightens it a bit.

所以我认为，在你的技能储备中拥有这些东西，在客户之间的空档期是非常好的时间利用方式。你如何努力充实自己的工具包，以便面对不同的客户时，能有这些东西来，你知道，作为参考，我认为这比只是说‘好的，克里斯’要更慷慨一些。

So I think having those in your wheelhouse has such a good use of the time when you're in between clients is how are you working on bolstering your kind of toolkit so that with different clients, have these things to, you know, reference that I think are a little more generous than just being like, okay, Chris.

我在这里看到的是土星在第八宫，天王星也在第八宫，这可能意味着意外的死亡或其他类似的事情。

What I'm seeing here is Saturn is in the eighth, and Uranus is in the eighth, and that could mean an unexpected death or whatever.

你明白吗？

You know?

这就像是，这太过分了。

It's like, this is too much.

你知道吗？

You know?

所以请记住，对方作为一个人类来找你，很可能是因为他们感到某种程度的困惑、开放或脆弱。是的，只要记住这一点，我认为就能起到很大作用。

So just remember on the other side of you as a human who probably came to you because they're feeling a level of confusion or openness or vulnerability and just, yeah, keeping that in mind, I think, goes a long way.

是的。

Yeah.

这一点说得很好，要以一定的严肃性和尊重来对待，同时也要对这个人怀有同情心，不想最终说出可能有害或造成伤害的话。

That's a really good point that to approach it with a level of seriousness and respect as well as compassion for the person and not wanting to say something ultimately that could be harmful or damaging.

另一方面，我在某个阶段学到的是，有时候你作为占星师说的话，不同的人会以不同的方式接受，他们可能完全接受某些内容，也可能不完全接受，比如你原本的意图，这也是你需要学习的一点。

And on the other side of that, something I learned at a certain point, is that sometimes what you say as an astrologer, different people are gonna receive it different ways and they may or may not fully receive certain things like the way that you intended it, for example, which is something you'll have to sort of learn as well.

确实是这样。

It's just yeah.

而且在某种程度上，你对此也无能为力。

And to some extent, there's nothing you can do about that as a thing.

不过我很喜欢你关于神话的观点，我认为神话，甚至仅仅是类比，都是解释事物或将其与当代流行文化联系起来的绝佳切入点，而流行文化有时可能是人们共有的世界体验或共享的参照点。

So but I liked your point about mythology, and I think mythology and also even just analogy are really great access points for explaining things or connecting it with, contemporary pop culture, which can sometimes be people's shared experience of the world or having a shared reference point.

对我来说，在解读一个星体位置时，我逐渐形成了一套我认为相对有效的结构：如果你要解读一个星体位置，最好先广泛地诠释其原型——试着观察这个位置，尽可能宽泛地诠释其原型，然后给出三个具体例子，并提供一个该位置的积极表现作为可能的情景，这个情景可以基于象征意义，也可以基于你之前在另一张星盘（无论是其他客户的星盘还是名人星盘）中见过的类似情况。

For me, when I was delineating a placement, I sort of developed a structure that I think worked out relatively well where if you're delineating a placement, it's a good idea to first interpret the archetype broadly to try to like look at the placement, interpret the archetype as broadly as you can, and then give three specific examples and give one positive manifestation of that placement as a possible scenario that you're drawing on either based on the symbolism or based on maybe you've seen that in another chart before, either another client chart or like a celebrity chart.

所以，给出一种可能的积极表现，一种可能的挑战性表现，再给出一种相对中性的表现。

So give one possible positive manifestation, give one possible challenging manifestation, and then give one that's kind of like neutral.

这样你就有了，比如说，三种不同的可能性选项，用来描述这个位置的原型或象征意义。

So you get, let's say, three different options as possibilities as you're trying to describe the archetype or the symbolism of the placement.

完成这一步之后，你再反过来询问客户：‘这对你来说是如何体现的呢？’

And then after you've done that, then you turn it around and you ask the client, how has that worked out for you?

客户要么会对此产生共鸣，并真正开始思考它在自己生活中的具体表现方式——这可能接近那三种情况之一，即使不完全吻合，至少他们也能充分理解你所说的象征意义，从而将其与自己生活中的那件事联系起来。

And either the client's gonna say it's gonna, like, resonate with a client and it's gonna actually make them think of the specific way that it does manifest in their life, which is either gonna be close to one of those three or even if it's not, well, at least they'll recognize the symbolism of what you're saying enough that they'll be able to connect it with that thing in their life.

或者，如果客户没有共鸣，他们也会告诉你，这同样是宝贵的信息，能帮助你重新调整。

Or alternatively, it just doesn't, if it doesn't land for the client, then they'll tell you that as well, which is also good information and can help you to recalibrate.

是的。

Yeah.

我是说，我脑海里浮现出好多例子，就像我第一次做解读时那样。你知道，我当时想到了所有那些关于处女座上升的酷炫巴比伦象征意义，她是一位非常出色的作家，注重秩序，但最终她最能共鸣的却是‘处女’这个意象。

I mean, so many examples are coming to mind like I did when my first reading, I was, you know, thinking of all these cool, like, Babylonian significations for Virgo rising who's a really amazing writer and order, and she ended up resonating most with the Virgin.

对吧？

Right?

所以，这为她创造了一个机会，实际上不是去反驳，而是可以说，这个更符合我的情况。

So creating that opportunity for her to actually not disagree, but be like, actually, this one speaks more to me.

对吧？

Right?

所以，你做了功课，但随后你打开话题，他们实际上可能会让你惊讶于什么引起了他们的共鸣。

So you did your homework, but then you open it up, and then they actually might surprise you what resonates with them.

而且，最近我有几个客户对水瓶座有非常奇怪的过敏反应，他们根据与水瓶座太阳星座相处的亲身经历，以这种非常具体的方式看待水瓶座，结果却发现自己是水瓶座上升或有主导的水瓶座配置，而他们之前从未知道。

And then I've had a couple of clients recently who have a really strange allergic reaction to Aquarius, and they think of Aquarius in this very specific way from lived experience with Aquarius suns, and they end up having Aquarius rising or a dominant Aquarius placement they never knew.

我能感受到很多抵触情绪，因为他们对水瓶座有负面的联想。

And so there is a lot of resistance that I can pick up on because they don't they have a negative association with Aquarius.

所以在这种情况下，尝试为他们创造空间，让他们感到惊喜，这很有趣。

And so it's interesting in that scenario trying to create spaciousness for them to be surprised.

这也是一个有趣的例子，你刚才说的确实有效——我会以更中立、更积极的方式呈现水瓶座的特质，让他们了解自己从未听说过的方面，从而慢慢松开紧握的拳头。

So that's an interesting one too where what you just said kinda works, where I approach it with more neutral neutrality and positive expressions of Aquarius they never knew about so that they can start to gently un un unclench the fist.

这是一个缓慢的过程，我已经学会耐心对待，因为我明显能感受到他们不愿认同水瓶座的犹豫。

And it's a slow process, and I've learned to just be patient with it because I'm definitely picking up on, you know, their hesitation to identify with it.

我只是努力让这种感觉变得可以接受。

And I just try and make that okay.

而我的任务还包括向他们介绍他们所不知道的水瓶座的各种象征意义。

And then my job is also to share what Aquarius all the different significations of Aquarius they don't know.

但这只是一个例子，说明在当下可能会遇到意想不到的挑战。

But just that's an an example where it's an unexpected challenge in the moment.

我认为我们现在正处在一个占星学讨论非常活跃的时期。

I think we're at a time where there's a lot of discourse in astrology.

但不幸的是，对我来说，有时我觉得自己在与大量关于星座的错误信息或选择性信息作斗争。

But, unfortunately, for me, sometimes I feel like I'm it's an uphill battle against a lot of misinformation or selective information about signs.

我在节目中利用这一点，因为许多天蝎座的人实际上并不认同占星术，因为天蝎座在大众话语中被严重误解和简化——人们认为天蝎座善于操控、沉迷性爱，而事实上，正如许多占星师所知，天蝎座代表的是一种拒绝，他们实际上是在克制和保留。

And I've been using that to my advantage on the show where a lot of Scorpios don't actually resonate with astrology because Scorpio is such a misunderstood flattened sign in the popular discourse, where Scorpios are seen as manipulative and sex addicted when, in fact, as many astrologers know, Scorpios can be the sign of refusal, where they're actually withholding.

因此，我尝试利用这一点，通过向对占星术持怀疑态度的人分享那些鲜为人知的原型，或我发现每位客户都能产生共鸣的原型性转变阶段，来为己所用。

And so I try and use it to my advantage by speaking to people who are skeptical of astrology by sharing the lesser known archetypes or the archetypal narrative kind of stages of transformation that I've found every client is relating to.

所以我认为，我正试图利用当前每个星座都存在过于局限的刻板印象这一现状，而这些刻板印象实际上让很多人望而却步。

So I think I'm trying to use it to my advantage that there's such limited specific stereotypes with each sign right now that actually turn quite a lot of people off.

所以我不确定这是否相关，但我正试着不再把这看作终点，而是认为这或许是一个机会，能让我真正让人变得更加开放和好奇。

So I I don't know if that is is related, but I am trying to also kind of instead of viewing it as a stopping point, I'm like, maybe this is an opportunity for where how I can actually get people to be more open and curious.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，对于每一位占星师来说，做咨询时都会面临一个问题，尤其是当你面对的是对占星术缺乏背景知识的公众时——你总是在试图引导和澄清占星术究竟是什么，并消除他们可能带着进来的误解，这些误解可能与你的观点或你看待事物的方式不同。

I mean, I think one piece of doing consultations for every astrologer is gonna be, especially if you're dealing with somebody coming from the public that doesn't have as much background in astrology, is you're always gonna be trying to redirect and clarify what astrology is and trying to dispel some myths that they may have surrounding what it is coming into the consultation that may be different in terms of your view on it or in terms of how you see things.

因此，做咨询时，尤其是面对新手或非占星师时，关键部分不仅是澄清他们基于流行占星术而持有的错误观念，还要处理他们对咨询过程、占星师能洞察未来或个人生活的方式，以及占星术如何运作等方面的期待差异。

So that's a big part of doing a consultation, especially with a novice or somebody that is a non astrologer is not just clarifying things that they may have as wrong based on pop astrology, but also they may have different expectations about what happens in a consultation or what an astrologer is able to see about the future, about a person's life or different things like that or how astrology works.

因此，你咨询过程中的一部分，就是在咨询期间确立你认为占星术究竟是什么，以及在你看来它能做到什么，诸如此类的事情。这不仅是为了管理预期，也是为了将客户的期望调整到作为占星师你认为实际可行的范围内。

And so a part of your process is going to be establishing during the course of the consultation what you think astrology actually is, what it's capable of in your opinion, and different things like that in order to partially not just manage expectations, but also to adjust to the client's expectations to what is actually realistic from your standpoint as an astrologer.

是的。

Yeah.

我真的很推荐你关于如何与怀疑者交谈的那次访谈或那期节目。

I really recommend your interview or your episode around how to talk to skeptics.

我认为那期节目非常棒。

I think that's a great one.

有太多太多人给我发关于尼尔·德格拉斯·泰森和蛇夫座的Instagram短视频了，我简直受不了再看这些了。

There's so much there's so many Instagram reels that people send me about Neil deGrasse Tyson and Ofucus, and I'm like, I I can't feel another one of these.

不过这只是个有趣的例子，但大家总是发给我，比如‘那尼尔·德格拉斯·泰森呢？他对逆行之类的看法，说那是幻觉什么的’。

But that's just a funny example, but everyone always sends me in, like, but what about Neil deCrasse Tyson and, like, his thoughts on, you know, retrogrades as, like, illusory, you know, whatever.

有时候我会感到沮丧，因为我觉得有那么多出色的占星师，他们思考非常深入，在这个领域做了大量细致的工作。

And I think sometimes I can get frustrated because I feel like there's so many incredible astrologers that are just so thoughtful and have so much in-depth work on this.

就连我，你知道，我喜欢所有叫卡尔的人，比如卡尔·萨根、卡尔·马克思，所有卡尔我都喜欢。

Even I, you know, I love all the Carls, like Carl Sagan, Karl Marx, I just all of the Carls.

但对我来说，即使卡尔·萨根并不一定是个信仰者，他却很好地表达了：我不会签署任何反对占星术的请愿书。

But Carl Sagan, for me, even though he wasn't necessarily, like, a believer, I think did such a good job in saying, I'm not gonna sign something like a petition against astrology.

我可以提出疑问，同时依然理解天体物理学和科学同样承载着一种类似的敬畏感——你的假设可能需要一百多年才能被证实。

Like, I can have questions and still understand that actually astrophysics and science carries similar kind of wonderment, where you have a hypothesis that might take a hundred plus years to prove.

所以，虽然这未必是我的立场，但我觉得作为占星师进行咨询时，你可能会遇到一些怀疑，这取决于客户的立场，而且这种怀疑可能会在占星解读中浮现出来。

So where, like, it's not necessarily my place, right, but I feel like as an astrologer giving consultations, you might get some of that skepticism depending on where their position is, and it might come up in in the reading.

因此，提前思考这些问题并对自己的回答感到自信，我觉得是相当好的。

So I think it is kinda great to have done some of those that thinking before and feel comfortable in your answer.

因为如果客户看到你对自己对占星术的理解仍充满矛盾，可能会感到些许不适。

Because I think it can be a little uncomfortable for a client to see that you're still very much in conflict with your own understanding of what astrology is.

所以我认为，在开始执业之前，最好先和自己进行一次这样的对话。

So I think it would probably be great to have that conversation with yourself before you start your practice.

是的。

Yeah.

不同占星师各有不同的观点，每位占星师都有自己对占星术的理解、它是什么、如何运作，以及命运与自由意志之间的张力，还有他们认为事物有多大的决定性。

Of the things is different astrologers Each astrologer has their own personal views on astrology and what it is and how it works and the tension between fate and free will and how deterministic they think things are.

因此，咨询的一部分内容就是明确你的观点，并基于此说明你能提供什么、你认为什么是可能的，以及你能为客户做些什么。

So part of it is establishing in the consultation what your views are and based on that also what you offer or what you think is possible and what you can do for the client.

这一点有时最好提前明确，因为如果客户想要的与占星师实际提供的完全脱节，那就不太好了。

And that's something that's sometimes good to establish ahead of time because it's not good if there's a complete disconnect between what the client wants versus what the astrologer actually offers.

客户可能希望你使用一种你根本不用的技术或体系。

The client may want you to use a technique or a system that you don't even use.

如果你直到咨询时才知道这一点，那对客户来说可能会有些失望。

And if you don't know that until you get to the consultation, then it could be somewhat disappointing for the client.

所以这也是为什么尽早明确客户的需求，以及占星师是否能真正满足这些期望，是非常重要的。

So that's another reason why establishing very early on, like, what the client wants and if the astrologer can actually meet those expectations is really good.

或者，在某些情况下，如果客户寻求的是你不提供的服务，你可能需要将他们转介给其他人。

Or alternatively, in some instances, if you need to refer that client out to somebody else, if they're looking for something that you don't offer.

我知道生时校正这个问题你经常遇到。

I know rectification is one that's come up to you a lot.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

在我做前期准备时，这个问题经常出现，那就是他们没有出生时间。

That one has come up quite a bit when I'm doing my prework and it comes up that they don't have a birth time.

我真的很希望，无论我公开演讲时，都能从我个人的视角出发，表达我的看法：我认为拥有出生时间对很多人来说是一种特权。

And I really am trying in, like, whenever I speak publicly to just in my own very personal Isa perspective from where I sit, I think that having a birth time can feel like a privilege to a lot of people.

有很多人由于各种原因，不知道自己的出生时间或地点。

And there's a lot of people who don't know their birth time or location for a lot of reasons.

所以我尽量明确说明我能解读什么，并对此保持诚实。

And so I try and just expectations set what I can read and be honest about that.

但我也会提供帮助，目前正在寻找旧金山湾区的出生时间校正服务，如果有人有推荐的话。

But I also offer and I'm currently looking for Bay Area rectification services if people have any recommendations.

但我也在努力，我觉得我的职责是向他们介绍有哪些可用的资源。

But I'm trying to also I feel like it's my job to educate them on what resources are available for that.

他们得知还有这样的方法时，都感到非常兴奋和释然。

And they've been so excited and relieved to know there's something.

我知道你好像有一门关于这个的课程，对吧？就是关于如何进行你自己的生时校正过程的。

And I know you have I think you have a course on it, right, on how to even go through your walk through your own process of rectification.

所以，你确实有自己的课程，对吗？

So is that right that you have, yeah, your own?

是的。

Yeah.

只是因为不同的占星师会做校正，但我认为最好的校正最终还得是个人为自己做的，因为没有人比你更了解自己的生活，因此，在逆向推导出正确的星盘方面，没有人能比你更有洞察力和能力。

Just because think different astrologers do rectifications, but I think the best rectification is ultimately gonna be the one that a person does for them self because nobody is gonna know your life as well as you know your own life, and therefore, no one's gonna have the greatest insight and ability then to reverse engineer what the correct chart is than you.

几年前，我和帕特里克·沃森开设了一门关于出生时间校正的课程，这样人们就能学习我们在咨询中实际使用的流程，并在他们自己的生活中复制，或者为客户复制，因为这确实是个问题。这也是为什么，你知道，你咨询前的工作之一就是获取客户的出生数据，并且总是要询问出生数据的来源以及出生时间的来源，以便你提前了解。

Patrick Watson and I set up a course on rectification a couple of years ago so that people can learn our actual process of what we do in consultations and replicate it in their own life or replicate it for clients because that is an issue is and that's another reason why, you know, one of your pre consultation things is to get the birth data of the client and also always to ask what the source of the birth data is and what the source of the birth time is so that you know ahead of time.

这个出生时间可靠吗？

Is this a reliable birth time?

它是来自出生证明吗？

Does this come from the birth certificate?

还是来自父母的记忆？

Does it come from the memory of a parent?

或者在某些情况下，这实际上非常重要，因为有时你最终会得到一个由另一位占星师甚至客户自己校正过的出生时间。

Or in some instances, it's actually really important because sometimes what'll happen is you'll end up with a rectified birth time that's been rectified by another astrologer or even by the client themselves.

如果你事先不知道这一点，那可能会非常棘手，因为你可能不同意那个校正结果，或者在某些情况下，那个校正可能并不十分可靠。

And if you don't know that ahead of time, that can be really tricky because you might not agree with that rectification or it may not be a very solid rectification in some instances.

如果你没有意识到你正在使用一个推测性的出生时间——毕竟所有校正结果本质上都是推测性的——那可能会带来很大的问题。

And if you don't realize that you're working with a speculative birth time, which all rectifications ultimately are, that can be really problematic.

所以，从一开始就要询问出生时间的来源是什么。

So always ask what the source of the birth time is right from the start.

对于那些信息来源是记忆的人，比如母亲记得是在早上6点到7点之间，你有什么建议？

What is your recommendation for someone whose source is a memory of, you know, let's say the mother and she remembers between six and 7AM?

在这种情况下，你会如何与客户沟通？

What would your approach be with the client?

我的意思是，这可能意味着你需要绘制星盘，分别绘制6点和7点的星盘，看看上升星座是否改变。

I mean, what that would mean is that you'll have to probably do You'll want to cast the chart, and you'll want to cast it for one chart for six and one chart for seven and see if the Ascendant changes signs.

如果上升星座在那个时间范围内甚至稍微超出都没有变化，那么情况可能还不错，你可以使用比如六点半的平均星盘。

If the Ascendant doesn't change signs anywhere in that range or even just slightly outside of it, then you're probably in pretty good shape and you might use like an average chart of six thirty in that instance.

因为我使用全宫制，所以这对我来说不是大问题，只要上升点在这个时间段内没有变化，所有的宫位位置仍然会相当准确。

And since I use whole sign houses, it's not a huge issue for me because all of the house placements will still be pretty accurate as long as the rising sign doesn't change in that timeframe.

然而，如果上升点接近宫界，或者在可能的时间范围内确实发生了上升星座的变化，那么至少在咨询开始时以及大部分过程中，你都需要进行快速的时辰校正，以判断哪个星盘更符合当事人的生活经历。

However, if the Ascendant is close to a cusp or if it does change rising signs during the potential timeframe, then it means at the very least at the beginning of the consultation and for a good chunk of it, you're gonna have to try to do a quick rectification in order to see which chart seems to be matching the person's life experience better.

这在初期可能会非常棘手，但当这种情况出现时，你必须学会如何应对。

That can be really tricky early on, but it's something that you'll have to kind of learn how to do in instances where that comes up.

有时候，一些占星师还不太习惯做这种校正，如果客户说：我的出生时间是推测的，我不知道，或者是在这个范围内，如果你觉得做这个超出你的能力范围，完全可以坦诚说明，这也没关系。

Or sometimes some astrologers, they don't feel comfortable doing that yet, and if a client says, My birth time is speculative, or I don't know, or it's in this range, it's okay if you don't feel comfortable doing that, just saying that and saying that's a little bit outside of my ability right now.

为了进行咨询，我需要一个准确、精确的出生时间。

In order for me to do a consultation, I need to have an accurate exact birth time.

如果你选择这样做，那也没问题。

And that's okay too if that's what you choose to do.

不同的占星师对此有不同的舒适度和接受程度。

Different astrologers have different levels of comfort in terms of that.

是的。

Yeah.

这个回答很棒。

That's a great answer.

我想，我问别人是否以前做过占星解读的另一个原因，也涉及到这一点：有时候人们已经找吠陀占星师做过解读。

I I think another reason I ask if someone has gotten a reading before is to this point that sometimes people have gotten a reader by a Vedic astrologer.

或者，如果你不知道，如果你没问这个问题就开始解读他们的星盘，他们可能会说，等等。

Or if if you didn't know, if you didn't ask the question and you start revealing their chart, they're like, wait.

什么？

What?

我原以为我会的，对吧？

I thought I would right?

所以有时候，根据所使用的宫位系统和占星传统，你呈现给他们的星盘可能和他们以前见过的非常不同。

So sometimes depending on the house system and the tradition, you might be presenting them with, like, a very different chart than they've received before.

因此，我会尽量提前询问，以预判那种震惊时刻，这样我就能为那些不了解占星学极其广博、动态且全面的人提供背景信息。

And so I try and preempt that moment of shock if I can by asking so that I kind of already know that I can just provide context for people who don't know that astrology is extremely vast and dynamic and comprehensive.

因为我认为人们并不真正理解它的广博程度。

Because I don't think people really understand the extent of it.

你明白吗？

You know?

我觉得对很多人来说，比如，什么是普拉西度宫位制？

I think for a lot of people, like, what's placidus?

什么是整宫制？

What's wholesale?

他们不了解这些，所以当你告诉他们一个不同的星盘时，只会让他们感到困惑。

They don't know a lot of that, so it's just creating confusion in them that you're telling them a different chart.

而且我认为，有些占星师的做法我并不喜欢，那就是声称自己的解读才是正确的，其他一切都是错误的。

And I have, I think, something that I don't love that I hear some astrologers do is saying this is correct and everything else is incorrect.

就好像在说，我给你的才是正确客观的星盘，而你之前收到的所有其他解读都不是。

So I'm giving you the correct objective chart, and every other reading you've received isn't.

我觉得那种……我不知道你怎么看，但我真的很难接受那种类型的说法。

Like, I think that type of I don't know your take on it, but I think those types of statements I really struggle with.

在我看来，那种做法开始让人觉得不道德，因为你把别人置于一种非黑即白、只有事实和真理的境地。

Like, I think that to me starts to feel unethical where you're putting someone in a position where there's, like, facts and truths.

我不知道。

I don't know.

对我来说，那样可能有点太权威了，而且这绝对不是我的风格。

I think for me, that can be a little bit too authoritative, and it's definitely not my style.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这始终是一个微妙的平衡，因为一方面，每个从事占星术一定年限的专业占星师都会发展出一套适合自己的体系，他们主观上认为这套体系最有效、在实践中效果最好。

I think it's always a delicate balance between because on the one hand, each professional astrologer who's been doing astrology for a certain number of years develops a system that works for them and that they think works best and is most effective in practice for them subjectively.

而且他们多年来经历了一个尝试不同技巧的过程，某种程度上决定了哪些技巧对他们最有效或看起来最有说服力，也许要么不使用某些技巧，要么不强调那些他们要么无法使其对自己生效、要么出于某种原因觉得不那么有说服力、要么就是没有专门研究过的技巧。

And they've gone through some process over the years of trying different techniques and sort of deciding which ones work the best for them or seem the most compelling and maybe either not using certain techniques or not emphasizing certain techniques that they either haven't been able to get to work for them or just haven't seemed as compelling to them for some reason or that they just haven't specialized in.

所以这是一种微妙的平衡，一方面你想权威地谈论你的方法，同时又不完全贬低其他方法，因为占星学是一个非常广阔的领域。

So it's a delicate balance on the one hand where you want to talk about whatever your approach is authoritatively while also not completely just diminishing other approaches since astrology is a really wide field.

但这就是为什么需要相对较早地确立你的体系，以及这是否是客户所寻找的，或者是否存在脱节——比如他们寻找的是使用恒星黄道的人，而你使用的是回归黄道，那可能就是一种脱节。

But that's one of the reasons why just establishing what your system is relatively early on and if that's what the client is looking for or if there's a disconnect where they're looking for somebody that does, let's say, like sidereal uses the sidereal zodiac, whereas if you use the tropical zodiac, that may be a disconnect.

所以问题之一就是，这样行吗？

And so one of the questions is, is that okay?

这种差异是可以协商的吗？客户是否能够接受从你的视角来看星盘，看看你能为这次咨询带来什么，以及你的方法能提供什么？还是说，这对客户来说是个无法接受的问题，因为他们希望有人能用特定的方法来解读某个特定的星体位置。

Is that a negotiable disconnect where the client's gonna be okay looking at the chart from your perspective and seeing what you bring to the consultation and have to offer using your approach, or is that kind of a deal breaker for the client where they're looking for somebody to interpret a specific placement in a specific approach.

因此，如果占星师不使用那种方法，就可能会导致失望。

And therefore, if the astrologer doesn't use that approach, then it's gonna lead to disappointment.

弄清楚这一点通常是咨询前需要做好的事情，尽管有时你仍然需要在咨询过程中处理和协商，因为有时它可能会在咨询过程中自然而然地出现。

Figuring that out is a good usually pre consultation thing, Although sometimes it's something you still have to deal with and negotiate in the consultation itself because sometimes it might naturally arise just during the course of the consultation.

是的。

Yeah.

完全同意。

Absolutely.

我非常喜欢你所说的，要确保你拥有并精通自己在这门技艺中磨练出的体系，尤其是如果你已经是一位从业二十年的占星师。

I love what you said about making sure that you're, you know, owning your own system that you've honed in the craft, especially if you're you know, you've been a practicing astrologer for two decades.

对我来说，我认为始终要留有余地，确保我们不是在将解读强加给客户。

I think for me, just always leaving room to make sure we're not imposing interpretations on the client.

就我而言，我深深共鸣于我的天蝎座星群落在第七宫，而在普拉西度分宫制下，所有这些行星都落在第六宫。

Like, for me, I really resonate with my Scorpio stellium in the seventh, and then in Placidus, all of those planets are in the sixth.

所以如果你告诉我它在第六宫，那你可能会无意中让我感到不舒服。

So if you're telling me it is in the sixth, then you could be unintentionally making things uncomfortable for me.

因为这让我没有空间去自我认同这个宫位的归属。

Because it's like I don't have room to self identify where the house placement is.

你知道，这感觉起来好像你对我缺乏好奇心，反而更像在说‘你就是这样的’，我觉得这可能是占星师之间的差异。

You know, it it feels like there's less curiosity about me, and there's more like, you are this, which I think is maybe just astrologer to astrologer.

这是一种风格和方法上的不同。

This it's a difference in style and approach.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，归根结底，这更多取决于客户的需求——如果你去找一位占星师，你就需要顺应他们的方法；比如，要求一位不使用整宫制的占星师改用整宫制来进行解读，这是不合适的，反之亦然。

And I think, you know, it's I think ultimately, it's more on the side of the client where if you come to an astrologer, like, you kinda need to follow their approach where it would be inappropriate to ask to use that example of, like, an astrologer who doesn't use whole sign houses to tell them that they have to use whole sign houses in a consultation that would be inappropriate and vice versa.

这适用于黄道带、相位以及占星传统中的各种分歧，不同的从业者有不同的方法。

That goes for zodiacs and aspects and all sorts of different things where there's divisions or differences in the astrological tradition and different practitioners have different approaches.

但最终，这就是为什么有些客户或占星师会在个人简介中明确说明，比如‘我使用热带整宫制的希腊占星术’之类的内容。

But ultimately, that's why, you know, some clients or some astrologers are pretty clear as part of their bio where they'll say, I do, you know, tropical whole sign Hellenistic astrology or something like that.

或者有人会说，我从事的是现代西方心理占星学，这是我的专长。

Or somebody will say, do I do modern Western psychological astrology, that's what I specialize in.

这在某种程度上，我认为，作为一名占星师，如果你能明确说明自己的专长和方法，这是非常好的。因为这样一来，如果你和客户都知道会得到什么，至少对于那些对这些术语有基本了解或认知的客户来说，你和客户之间的脱节就会减少，尽管很多人可能并不了解。

That's a little bit, you know that's very good as an astrologer, I think, to some extent if you put out there what you specialize in and what your approach is because then it'll lead to less disconnect between you and the client if they know what to expect going into it, at least for clients that have some basic understanding or orientation of what those things mean even though many might not.

然后，这在某种程度上也是客户的责任，如果他们有自己的特定偏好或体系，他们需要去寻找提供这些服务的占星师，这在一定程度上，责任也在于客户。

And then it's also something that's kind of on the part of the client as well that they have to if they have specific preferences or systems that they're looking for to seek out the astrologer that offers that, that's a little bit on the you know, the onus is on the client to some extent there as well.

是的。

Yeah.

说得真好。

That's really well said.

我想我的观点就是，是的。

And I think that's my point was yeah.

那是非常不合适的。

That's very inappropriate.

我想我的观点更多是，我确实鼓励人们进行自己的那种自我学习。

And I think my point is more that I do encourage folks to do their own kind of self learning.

对于那些刚刚开始接触占星学的人，我会鼓励他们把占星看作一个令人兴奋的机会，去尝试不同的宫位系统，比如普拉西杜斯和整宫制，从而给自己机会培养直觉。

So for someone who's really on the, you know, their beginning path with astrology, I try and make it I try and encourage them to view it as, like, an exciting opportunity for them to chart in different you know, in Placidus and whole sign and just kind of give themselves the opportunity to develop their own intuition.

所以我认为这正是关键所在——无论你是客户还是占星师，都需要构建语境，这正是我们到目前为止在本集中反复强调的一个重要观点。

And so I think that's more what it is because it's absolutely on your you know, whether you're the client or the astrologer to context build, which I think is a big point that we've made this so far in this episode.

当然。

Definitely.

好的。

Alright.

我们已经聊了一个小时了，不如休息一下吧？

We're at an hour, so why don't we take a little break?

是的。

Yeah.

我们在这个播客中使用并推荐的占星软件是适用于Windows系统的Solar Fire，可以在alabe.com上购买。

The astrology software that we use and recommend here on the podcast is called Solar Fire for Windows, which is available for the PC at alabe.com.

使用促销代码ap15，可享受15%的折扣。

Use the promo code a p 15 to get a 15% discount.

对于Mac用户，我们推荐一款名为Astro Gold for Mac OS的软件程序，它由PC版Solar Fire的开发者打造，并同时包含现代和传统的占星技术。

For Mac users, we recommend a software program called Astro Gold for Mac OS, which is from the creators of Solar Fire for PC, and it includes both modern and traditional techniques.

你可以在astrogold.io上了解更多信息，并使用优惠码astro podcast 15来获得15%的折扣。

You can find out more information at astrogold.io, and you can use the promo code astro podcast 15 to get a 15% discount.

好的。

Alright.

那么我们回来了。

So we're back.

那么，我们再多聊一点关于……让我们再回到一些实际内容上来。

So let's talk a little bit more about Let's get into some practical stuff again.

我们差点就谈到那了，但话题转到了许多其他相关的事情上。

We almost went there, but we got on a track where there's so many other adjacent things.

我们来稍微谈谈，你知道的，当你坐下来准备进行一次占星咨询时。

Let's talk a little bit about, know, you're sitting down to give an astrological consultation.

你第一次绘制了星盘。

You've cast the chart for the first time.

当你开始谈论一个人的生活时，通常会先看哪些方面？

What are some of the first things that you're gonna talk about and look at in order to start talking about a person's life?

对我来说，我会先看一些内容，也许我们可以快速看一下你的星盘作为参考点。

And for me, some of the things that I'll look at and maybe we can glance at your chart just to, like, give a a reference point.

这是你的星盘。

So here's your chart again.

好的。

Alright.

我通常会先看星盘的派别是什么？

So one of the first things I'll look at is, like, what is the sect of the chart?

这是一个日盘还是夜盘？

Is it day chart or is it a night chart?

在你的情况下，这其实很有趣，因为太阳刚刚才落到地平线以下不久。

In your case, that's actually an interesting because the sun had just set under the horizon relatively recently.

太阳现在只在地平线以下七度左右。

It's only like seven degrees below the horizon.

通常，当太阳落到地平线以下大约六、七度时，天就已经黑了。

Usually, by the time it gets about six, seven degrees below the horizon, it's it's dark out.

所以我可能会把这当作一张夜间星盘来处理。

So I would probably treat this as a as a night chart.

这样一来，我们马上就能知道，如果这是一张夜间星盘，那么根据派系划分，星盘中最有利的行星将会是金星。

So right away, we know if it's a night chart that the most positive planet in the chart based on sect is gonna be the planet Venus.

因此，我们会查看金星在第七宫的宫位，然后我们知道，在夜间星盘中最具挑战性的行星可能是土星，我们会查看它在第八宫的宫位。

And so we'd look at Venus's house placement in the seventh house, and then we know that the most challenging planet is probably gonna be Saturn in a night chart, and we would look at its house placement in the eighth house.

所以，这是两个起始点。

So those are two starting points.

另外我会看的是，星盘中上升星座的守护星是什么？

The other thing I would look at is what is the ruler of the Ascendant in the chart?

在你的星盘中，你是金牛座上升，金星是上升星座的守护星，而金星落在第七宫。

So in your chart, you have Taurus rising, Venus is the ruler of the Ascendant, and Venus is in the seventh house.

所以我们立刻就能知道，这表明第七宫相关的议题对你来说会更加重要，并且对你整体的人生方向而言，会比其他人更为关键——无论是相对于那些可能没有第七宫行星落位的人，还是相对于那些虽然有第七宫落位但星盘中并没有非常重要行星的人而言。

So we know right away that that's going to indicate that seventh house topics are gonna be more important for you and more important for your overall life direction than they might be for other people, both in terms of other people who maybe don't have seventh house placements or people that have seventh house placements but just not very important planets in their chart.

上升星座的守护星总是预示着命主在某个特定领域的主要整体关注点。

The rule of the ruler of the Ascendant always indicates a major overall focus in some specific area for the native.

然后结合最吉和最凶的行星，这也能为我们提供一些信息，了解客户可能在哪些方面事情会进展得更顺利一些，或者哪些经历会更积极一些，以及他们可能更费力应对的挑战性经历来自何处。

And then backing up with the most positive and most challenging planet, that's also gonna give us some information about where the client might have some of their things that tend to come a little bit more easily or some of their experiences that will tend to be a little bit more positive versus where some of their more challenging experiences come from that they might struggle with a little bit more.

当然，这其中也有例外和缓和因素，但这些只是你可以作为起点开始审视的宽泛概括。

So there's exceptions to that and there's mitigating factors, of course, but these are just broad general things that you might use as a starting point to start looking.

是的。

Yeah.

你还会看些什么，或者我们首先可能会关注的其他方面有哪些？

What else do you look at, or what are some other things that we might look at first?

是的。

Yeah.

我很喜欢这个思路。

I love that.

我是说，我认为就我的客户工作而言——这主要是我们讨论的基础——对我来说顺序也是一样的。

I mean, I think when it comes to my client work, which is primarily what we're pulling from, that's the same order for me.

不过，我通常会说，过程中会有很多分支和插曲，这些往往是由客户提出问题，或者甚至从上升星座开始引发的。

I will say what typically happens, though, is that along the way, there's a lot of tangents and interludes that are driven by the client having questions or, you know, even just starting with the ascendant.

比如，他们可能会对星座或模式有一些关联性的想法。

Like, there might be associations they have with the sign or the modality.

因此，我也尽量保持高度灵活，因为我觉得咨询中最喜欢的一点，就是能建立许多不同的联系——我觉得有结构固然重要，但同时我也发现，允许自己根据客户的兴趣点灵活调整，反而能激发更多洞见。

And so that can I also try and be really flexible because one of my favorite things about consultations is actually it's an opportunity to make a lot of different connections that I think it's helpful to have a structure, and then it's also I find it generative to kind of allow myself fluidity with where the client feels more interested?

所以我也努力为他们留出空间，比如有时我能感觉到，当涉及土星或冥王星时，他们可能会对深入探讨感到犹豫。

So I also try and create room for them to be I can sometimes sense with Saturn, for example, or Pluto, there might be some hesitation to go really in-depth on that.

因此，我会根据实时收到的反馈来做出回应。

And so I try and also just respond in real time to what I'm receiving, the feedback.

但我始终都会这么做，是的。

But I always do, yeah.

我会先看夜盘，然后我会看我的上升星座——我是金牛座上升，接着我会看金星。

I would look at night chart, then I would look at my I'm Taurus rising, then I would look at Venus.

我也会去查看我的月亮，看看我的月亮。

I would also go to my moon, check out my moon.

然后，如果他们是新手，我会详细谈谈我星盘中的星群。

And then I would, if they are newer, I would talk lot about in my chart a stellium.

那是什么意思？

What does that mean?

有哪些需要注意的地方？

What are the things to look out for?

我最近解读了很多有星群配置的星盘。

I've been reading for a lot of stelliums.

所以我一直在努力让他们理解，比如，他们的星盘中可能存在那种能量的过度，或者说放大。

And so I've been trying to get them to understand that, like, there might be an an over like, a pronunciation or amplification of that energy in their chart.

那么他们如何找到平衡呢？

And so how do they find balance?

他们与那种能量是什么关系？

What's their relationship to that energy?

他们与那个宫位又是什么关系？

And what's their relationship to that house?

那个宫位的主题。

The themes of that house.

所以我真的会看，比如看看我的星盘。

So I really look at like where like, look at my chart.

这太好笑了。

It's hilarious.

太疯狂了。

It's so crazy.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

For sure.

我的意思是，这些真的是

I mean, those are really

很好的观点，因为这是夜盘，你知道你会更关注月亮在个性中扮演的主导角色，而不是太阳；而在日盘中，情况正好相反，太阳会在个性特质上占据更主导的地位。

great points that it's like because it's a night chart, you know you're gonna pay more attention to the moon as having a more dominant role in the personality than the sun would, whereas that's reversed in a day chart and the Sun's gonna take a more dominant role in terms of personality traits.

然后，是的，接下来要看的是，星盘中是否存在特定的格局，或者是否有行星聚集在星盘的某个特定区域，这会吸引你关注那个宫位或那个区域，将其视为一个因多种原因而会有更多焦点和活动的领域，一方面是因为那个宫位有很多行星，所以它们会在生活的那个部分显现出来。

And then, yeah, that's the next thing is Are there any chart patterns or are there any clusters of planets in a certain sector of the chart that's going to draw your attention towards that house or that area of the chart as being an area where there's going to be more focus and more activity for multiple reasons, both because there's many planets in that house, so they're gonna be manifesting in that part of the life.

但同时，它也把各个宫位的宫主星都汇聚在那个宫位里，使得那个宫位成为多个不同宫位主题交汇显现的枢纽。

But also it brings in it ties together like the rulers of the houses all in that house of the chart so that it becomes like a nexus for several different house topics where they're manifesting.

而且，当重要的行运发生并经过那个星座时，它们会依次触发那个宫位里的所有行星。

And also when major transits happen and go through that sign, they're all gonna hit all of those planets in order.

所以，这也是为什么如果某个星座里有三颗、四颗或更多行星组成的星群，那绝对是你需要尽早关注并讨论的事情。

So that's another reason why if there's a stellium of three or four or more planets in a certain sign, then that's something you definitely wanna pay attention to and talk about relatively early on.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

而且我觉得，如果你向客户展示他们的星盘，他们自然会被那些视觉元素所吸引。

And I feel like clients, if you're showing them their chart, they'll naturally be drawn to those visuals.

对吧？

Right?

所以你可以看到在我的星盘里，我的北交点与月亮仅相距两度。

So you can see in my chart, my north node and my moon are two degrees apart.

所以这也很意思。

So that's also interesting.

那是另一个，嗯，很显眼的星群。

That that's that's another, like, cluster that jumps out.

而且我发现，我总是尽量留出空间。

And I find that it's really I always try and leave room.

我很喜欢相位分析。

I love aspects.

我认为它们确实能让人感到兴奋，而且更加具体。

I think they really, like, excite people, and they're more specific.

我觉得，当你与那些可能是初学者或中级水平的人合作时，想到他们星盘中比星座更具体的细节是令人兴奋的。

And I think when you're working with people who are maybe beginner to intermediate, it's exciting to think of more particularities to their chart than just the signs.

但我也很喜欢IC和MC，并且乐于帮助——我觉得在帮助人们思考占星学中的轴线，以及像二元配对或星座与轴线之间的对话方面，我运气不错，我们通过这些来理解共享能量的共同与不同表达。

But I also love the IC and the MC and helping I I feel like I've had a lot of luck with helping people think about the axes in astrology as well as, like, dualistic pairings or this conversation between signs and axes where we're understanding shared and different expressions of shared energy.

我认为人们会觉得这些东西非常迷人。

I think people find that stuff really fascinating.

音乐家们会从音乐理论的角度来理解这种关联。

Musicians kind of relate in the terms of music theory.

你知道，人们理解事物的方式有很多种，对自然的理解也是如此。

You know, there's just a lot of ways that people understand that, same with nature.

所以我认为，理解二元对立的事物并不一定意味着矛盾，如果这说得通的话。

So I think understanding how something that's dualistic isn't necessarily in contradiction, if that makes sense.

而且我认为占星学为我们提供了绝佳的机会来进行这些对话。

And I think astrology has some really amazing opportunities for us to have those conversations.

而且我喜欢在解读星盘时思考这个问题。

And I like thinking about when I'm reading scale.

最近我特别着迷的另一件事是：这件事可能以何种方式具体显现，又可能以何种方式更具象征意义地显现，尤其是在宫位方面？

That's another one I'm really into lately is what is a way this might show up literally, and what is this a way this might show up more symbolically, especially with houses?

所以，如果有人正在经历很多第四宫的过境，但他们的住所或家庭却没有任何事情发生，他们可能会觉得这没有共鸣。

So if someone's going through a lot of fourth house transits, what if nothing's happening to their residents or their family, and then they're like, that doesn't resonate.

但那时他们正处在孕育整张专辑的过程中，就像通过歌曲让他们的祖先故事保持鲜活。

But then they're having they're in the middle of gestating an entire album that's like keeping the stories alive of their, you know, ancestry through song.

所以，如果你打开那个象征性的领域，他们就会说，哦，哇。

So if you open up that symbolic realm, they're like, oh, woah.

或者我最近最喜欢关于巨蟹座的一点，就是谈论巨蟹座作为记忆守护者和情感历史学家。

I'm Or my favorite thing with Cancer lately is talking about Cancers as memory keepers and emotional historians.

而且他们从未与那些爱哭鬼的梗或类似的东西产生共鸣。

And they've never resonated with the crybaby memes or certain things like that.

但当你谈到情感记忆守护时，他们就会说，天哪，我的一生都在为我的家庭和族人充当情感档案保管员。

But then when you talk about emotional memory keeping, they're like, oh my gosh, my entire life is being an emotional archivist for my family and my people.

所以我认为，给人们提供关于这些表达在现实中的不同例子，也会有很大帮助。

So I think just I think that also helps a lot, just giving people different examples of the expressions in the tangible.

并且要始终让它对人们来说接地气、可感知，但也不要害怕给出一些更具象征意义的东西。

And always keep it grounded and tangible for people, but then also don't fear giving something more symbolic.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，通常来说，你作为一名占星师的成功与否，将取决于你能否很好地阐述和描述那个总体的、像一把大伞一样的概念，或者说原型或象征本身，然后你可以给出一些具体的表现形式。

I mean, usually, like your success as an astrologer is gonna be based on how well you're able to draw to articulate and describe the overarching, like, umbrella concept or the archetype or symbolism itself, and then you can give some specific manifestations of that.

但很多时候，如果你说得太具体，有些客户反而无法建立联系，也就是说，虽然不是那个具体的事情，但其实是另一件事情，它依然符合这种象征意义。

But oftentimes, there can be a disconnect where if you go too specific, some clients instead of connecting that, you know, well, it wasn't that specific thing, but it was this that actually still fits the symbolism.

有些客户就是无法做出这种关联。

There'll be some clients that don't make the connection.

如果你说得太具体，他们就会说：不对。

And if you go too specific, then they'll say, no.

那不对。

That's not true.

但随后，在咨询过程中，你会发现其实那确实是对的。

But then, like, later in the consultation, you'll find out that it actually was true.

那只是一种稍有不同的表现形式。

It was just like a slightly different manifestation of that.

完全正确。

Totally.

我觉得这就是为什么我也特别喜欢天底和天顶，因为有些客户会因为占星在他们事业中如此直白地体现出来而感到震惊。

I think that's why I also love the IC and the MC because I think of the ways that some clients will be blown away by how literally it shows up in their career.

而另一些客户，情况更像是，MC（中天）更像是他们成长过程中的一个顶峰，他们可能觉得那个星座或宫位，更与他们的灵魂旅程或他们试图成为的人产生共鸣，而不是字面上关于你的事业或面向公众的部分。

And then some clients, it's like more of a like, the MC can be more like this zenith point of becoming where they maybe feel like it the the the sign in the house, like, resonates more with, their soul journey or who they're trying to become as opposed to the literal this is about your career or this is the public facing.

对吧？

Right?

所以我尽量具体，但同时，你也知道，这又像是在回应客户。

So I try and be specific, but also, in you know, again, it's like you're responding to the client.

如果他们觉得‘那不是我的事业’，他们可能会失去信任，因为你描述得太死板，不符合他们的实际情况。

If they're like, that's not my career, you know, they might lose trust because it's like you're being so prescriptive and it's not sitting with them.

所以我觉得，我只是在尝试，我不知道你是怎么做的，但对我来说，这有时是一种微妙的平衡。

So I think just trying that I don't know how you do it, but it's a delicate balance for me sometimes.

那么，你指的是那些中天度数落在第十整个宫位之外的情况。

So and you're talking about instances where, like, the degree of the Midheaven falls outside of the tenth whole sign house.

对吗？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

或者如果它落在，是的。

Or if it falls with yeah.

或者如果它落在里面，但就是，比如，你如何讨论这些概念，既不死板，又不至于说得太泛泛，如果这说得通的话。

Or if it falls within it, but just, like, how do you discuss, you know, those concepts without being prescriptive, but also not holding it so loosely that what you're saying is too generic, if that makes sense.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，这是个很好的观点。

Well, and that's a good point.

另外，与你刚才提到的相关，还有一个你可能会遇到的问题。

And then also related to what you said is an issue you'll run into.

这可能是我在咨询和解读星盘时最大的挫败感，它一直与我之前所说的有关，即有时你可以对某人生活中的某些事情做出陈述，这些陈述实际上是真实的，但当事人可能并不这样认为，部分原因在于，尽管我们尽了最大努力，每个人对自己的人生都没有一个客观的视角。

It's probably my greatest frustration in consultations and reading people's charts has always been that sort of connected to what I said earlier that sometimes you can make a statement about something that is actually true about a person's life, but the person may not recognize it as such partially because each of us, despite our best efforts, we don't have an objective viewpoint on our own lives.

我们只有自己的主观体验。

We only have our subjective experience of it.

而且很多时候，我们对自己生活中一些习以为常的事情存在盲点，而这些事情对其他人来说并非如此。

And oftentimes, we have blind spots in our life about things that we take for granted that are not true for everybody else.

但只有当占星师介入并从外部审视一个人的生活时，你才能看到那些在客户生活中与众不同、并非人人都拥有的方面。

But it's only when an astrologer comes in and looks at a person's life externally that you can see some of the things that are different in like the client's life that are not true for everybody else.

但人们常常对某些事情习以为常，尤其是我们星盘中美好的部分，往往会默认每个人在那个领域或生活中都享有同样的好运。

But oftentimes, people take for granted certain things like especially the good parts of our chart will often tend to take for granted that everybody experiences the same good fortune in that area of the chart or that area of life.

比如，如果星盘中最积极的吉星落在第二宫，他们可能会默认每个人都财务成功，或者认为金钱对每个人来说都来得很容易；甚至可能根本没意识到，金钱对他们来说确实来得很容易——即使你客观地观察，也能看出这个人在财务上一直表现优异，这一直是他们生活中非常轻松、充满好运的领域。

Like if the most positive benefic in the chart is in the second house, they may take for granted that everybody has financial success or that money comes easy to everybody or they may actually just not recognize that money does come easy to them even if you're sitting there objectively realizing this person does really well financially and this has always been an area of great ease for the person or good luck where they've been incredibly fortunate.

他们可能意识不到这一点，因为他们从未能跳出自我，从外部看待这一切。

They may not recognize that because they've never been able to step outside of themselves and see.

而占星师则不同，你会接连看到形形色色的客户，他们在这宫位上的经历从极其积极到一般，再到极其负面，应有尽有。

Whereas an astrologer, it's like you're seeing clients back to back that have the whole range of super positive to moderate to super negative experiences of that house.

因此，你更习惯于观察，并能准确判断这位特定客户在经验光谱中的位置。

So, therefore, you're more used to seeing and you can identify where this specific client falls in the spectrum of experience.

你需要应对的一件事是，客户的主观认知可能不像你希望的那样客观，这有时会导致他们拒绝某些明明客观上正确的陈述。

One of the things you have to negotiate is the client's perception may not be as objective as as you might like, which can sometimes lead to rejecting certain statements even though they're otherwise objectively true.

是的。

Yeah.

说得真好。

That's really well said.

我的意思是，在某些占星解读中，会有一些安静的幽默时刻，比如当你为一个十二宫或第八宫星体很强的人解读时，这些星体的本质带有恶作剧的特性。

I mean, there there are moments of, like, quiet humor and readings where, like, you're reading for someone with a lot of twelfth house or eighth house, and the nature of those planets is trickster.

对吧？

Right?

所以这些星体的本质就是一种捉迷藏，或者有一种潜意识的动态在发生。

So it's like the nature of those planets is there is, like, a hide and seek or there is a subconscious dynamic afoot.

因此，有时候我只是承认，确实存在一层我也不太确定的东西。

So sometimes it's also just like, yeah, me kind of acknowledging that there is a layer of I don't know.

我最近特别着迷于‘恶作剧者’这个概念，因为我作为占星师，觉得这个理念特别契合我——我感觉到，当你解读某些隐藏的星盘配置时，确实存在这样的情况。

My new I'm, like, obsessed with a trickster right now because I feel like that really I just really resonate with that as an astrologer because I feel like there is ways that you're reading for placements that are hiding.

所以，要求一个人始终保持自我觉察，确实有点强人所难。

And so it it is kind of a lot to ask someone to be always self aware.

对吧？

Right?

因为整个星盘解读的相遇过程，他们来解读星盘的意图之一就是为了解决这个问题，就是为了探讨如何建立一种觉察的练习。

Because the the whole encounter of the chart reading, one of their intentions of getting their chart read is to work on that, is to work on how they can create an awareness practice.

所以也许他们才刚刚踏上这段旅程。

And so maybe they're at the very beginning of that journey.

对吧？

Right?

因此，即使你在当下被拒绝了，你仍可能成为那个人努力更好地面对他们难以接受的自我部分这一漫长过程中的一部分。

And so even if you're rejected in the moment, you could be part of a lot, like, lifelong process of that person trying to better confront the parts of themselves they've had a hard time accepting.

所以我认为，有时候我们的角色就是在当下接受这个‘L’（失败/教训），并理解这就是工作的一部分。

And so I think sometimes our role is to, like, take the l in the moment and understand that that's part of the work.

对吧？

Right?

这就像是我当老师时学到的东西。

It's like, that's what I learned as a teacher.

有时候赢得一个学生的信任需要三年，而对另一些学生，可能只需要一小时。

Sometimes a student would take three years to, like, earn their trust, and others, it would take one hour.

我的角色不是去寻求认可。

And my role is not to want it's not to overseek validation.

我认为我的角色是把工作做好。

I think my role is to do my job well.

当我开始渴望所有这些认可时，我会说这种实践会受到影响，因为我试图在过程中被人喜欢。

And I think when I start to want all that validation, I would say the practice kinda suffers because I'm trying to be liked in the process.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，你只能尽你所能，过程中总会遇到意外和一些职业风险。

I mean, you're just gonna do the best you can and just there's gonna be curveballs and there's gonna be some occupational hazards that come along with that.

你知道，对于年轻客户来说，有一些特别的挑战：你可能会在一个人的星盘中看到某些东西，加以解释，但这些事情可能尚未发生。

You know, there's certain things that especially for younger clients, one of the greater challenges with younger clients is you may see something in a person's chart, you may delineate it, but it may be something that hasn't happened yet.

星盘中的某些宫位并不总是贯穿整个人生，但有时某些宫位只是指向人生中某个特定时刻将发生的决定性事件，这构成了他们命运图景的一部分，但可能尚未发生。

Not all placements in the chart are actually things that are true for the entirety of it, but sometimes certain placements actually just speak to a singular definitive event that will happen at some point in that person's life that makes up part of the tapestry of their fate, but it may not be something that's happened yet.

因此，与20岁的客户进行咨询可能会更具挑战性，而最令人愉快的咨询往往是与年长者进行的，比如七八十岁、生命即将走到尽头的人。

So that can actually be something that's more challenging dealing with having a consultation with a 20 year old versus some of the most enjoyable consultations are ones with older people, like let's say somebody in their seventies or eighties where they're more towards the end of their life.

星盘所指示的许多事情，他们已经经历过。

And many of the things that are indicated by the chart, they've already experienced.

所以与他们交谈时，他们对自己生活中已经发生或未发生的事情已经有了更明确的认识。

So in talking with them, they already have a more definitive sense of what's happened in their life or what's not happened.

因此，关于他们整体人生叙事会如何发展，通常不会有太多意外。

And there's not a lot of surprises necessarily in terms of what their overall life narrative is gonna be.

那么，在与年轻人探讨这些更具预测性的内容时，你会考虑哪些实时变量来判断这样做是否合乎伦理？

So what are some of the variables in real time that you're calculating for when it feels ethical to kind of get into some of those more predictive aspects with a younger person.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这取决于个人。

I mean, it just it depends on the person.

这取决于

It depends on

对。

Right.

你知道，我们之前谈过或简单提过一件事，但我打算回头再讨论一下：你真的需要在一开始就明确，客户大致分为两种类型，这一点必须尽早确定。

You know, one of the things we talked about or we touched on briefly, but I meant to circle back on is you really need to establish at the beginning, you know, there's two different approaches of clients and you need to establish early on.

客户来找你是因为他们有非常具体的话题想聊，想在星盘中查看某些特定内容吗？

Is the client coming to you because they have very some specific topics that they wanna talk about and things that they wanna look at in their chart?

如果是这样，这一点在一开始就很关键，因为这样你在准备或开始咨询时看星盘，可能会采用一些你原本不会用的技术，前提是意识到这是他们想探讨的主题。

If true, that's really important to know at the beginning because then in your preparation or when you start looking at the chart at the beginning of the consultation, there may be certain techniques that you apply that you wouldn't apply if you weren't realizing that that was a topic that they wanted to look at.

但如果你不知道这一点，你可能会在咨询的前半小时谈论他们第十宫的某颗行星，或某个经过第十宫的职业运程，而实际上他们真正想聊的是第七宫，以及此刻正在那里发生的事情。

Or if you don't know that, you could spend the first thirty minutes of the consultation talking about this planet in their tenth house or this transit through their tenth house of career, but really what they want to talk about is their seventh house and something that's going on there at this point in time.

所以，尽早明确这一点很重要，因为另一种情况是，有些客户并没有特定原因来找你，他们只是想要一次普通的星盘解读。

So establishing that early on and because the other alternative is sometimes there are clients that don't have a specific reason that they're coming to see you, but they just want a general chart reading.

如果是这种情况，那么你可能会更笼统地处理，就像我们之前那样，去关注上升星座的守护星、最具挑战性或最积极的行星等等，因为这是从整体星盘解析的角度出发的。

And if that's true, then of course, you might approach things a little bit more generally like we were doing earlier where we were looking at what is the ruler of the Ascendant, what is the most challenging or most positive planet, etcetera, because that's more approaching it from like a general chart delineation standpoint.

而如果一个人想聊的是他们当前生活中正在发生的事件，你可能就需要运用某些相位或时间主星技术之类的方法。

Whereas if a person's wanting to talk about like an event that's happening in their life right now, you might wanna be applying certain like transits or time lord techniques or things like that.

是的。

Yeah.

我问这个问题是因为最近我收到了很多年轻人的咨询请求，他们要么还没经历土星回归，要么才刚刚开始。

I've I asked because I've recently been getting an influx of requests from younger people either who haven't yet undergone Saturn's return or in, like, the very beginning of it.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我确实感受到他们有一种强烈的愿望，想要知道具体会发生什么，以便能够掌控或做好准备。

And I do sense this I sense this, like, desire to know what exactly is gonna happen so that they can either control it or prepare.

我总是笑，因为土星在我们生活中的角色恰恰是采取一种与我们直觉相反的方式——对我来说，土星是最伟大的教会我们放手控制的老师。

And I always laugh because the role of Saturn in our lives is kind of to take the opposite approach of, like, we're Saturn to me is one of the greatest teachers of surrendering control.

有时候，在我心里，我会提前规划好整个咨询过程。

And, like so sometimes there's moments like that where, like, in my head, I take the consultation.

但每次在占星解读的过程中，随着我们彼此了解的深入，我总会发现一个让我们双方都感到谦卑的教训：对我而言，占星术其实并不是关于保护和掌控。

But, like, I always find that throughout the reading together and the process of getting to know each other, there's always this, like, humbling kind of lesson from both of us around, like, is astrology for me is not actually about protection and control.

所以，我觉得这仅仅是我个人实践的特点。

And so I think that's just specific to my practice.

但有时我发现，我的很多年轻客户都会问：未来两年我会发生什么？我该如何准备？

But sometimes I find that a lot of my younger clients are like, what's about to happen in the next two years to me, and how can I, you know, prepare for it?

我个人对此的看法是，我可以尝试赋予他们一种自身能力和胜任力的感觉，并让他们明白自己并非受制于命运的反复无常。

And I think my personal take on that is, like, I can, you know, I can and also just try and I just try and bring them a sense of their own capacity and competence and leave them with a feeling that they're not beholden to the whims of fate.

我认为无论我预测什么，重要的是要让客户离开时感到内心更强大。

I think it's important for me no matter what I'm articulate like, I'm predicting that I leave the client feeling fortified.

是的。

Yeah.

这又回到了'不伤害'的原则，没错。

That would go back to that do no harm and Yes.

归根结底，你希望这次咨询对客户有帮助，无论这对每位客户个人而言意味着什么，这当然是最理想的。

Ultimately that you want the consultation to be helpful for the client, whatever that means to the individual client ideally.

是的，完全正确。

Yeah, absolutely.

我们来看看。

Let's see.

我记下的其他事项是，有时会出现这种情况：你可能对客户的星盘做出某种解读，但客户可能会拒绝接受，或者说你解读错了，或者只是因此变得紧张，因为这可能触及他们不愿深入探讨或不愿承认的敏感领域。这又是另一种情况，无论是从职业占星师的实际操作角度，还是你偶尔会遇到的情形，你可能事后才知道原因，甚至永远不知道为何会那样发展。

Other things I wrote down, sometimes something that comes up is a client You may make a statement about a person's chart, but a client may reject that or say that it's wrong or just tense up or something due to it being a sensitive area that maybe they don't want to go into or they don't want to acknowledge, which is another scenario both in terms of just from a practical standpoint as a professional astrologer or something that you'll encounter occasionally and you might not know until later or you might not ever know why it went that way.

但意识到这是一种潜在的可能性是很好的，同时，在谈论那些更具挑战性的星盘配置时，有时也需要以更敏感的方式去处理一些事情。

But it's good to be aware of as a potential possibility and also just in terms of approaching some things sensitively sometimes as well when you're talking about the more challenging placements.

是的。

Yeah.

我很高兴你提到这一点，因为我认为刚开始的时候，这真的会让人感到害怕。

I love that you brought this up because I think it can be really scary when you're starting out.

你不想出错。

You don't want to be wrong.

对吧？

Right?

因为你会担心这会在关系中造成僵局。

Because then you worry that it creates an impasse in the relationship.

对吧？

Right?

所以我认为，也要允许这种情况发生，因为如果不这样，你可能会在那一刻失去信心，然后剩下的解读就会变成对这种感觉的回应，就像你刚刚做错了什么一样。

So I think it's also about allowing that to happen because if you don't, then it could you could lose your confidence in the moment, and then the rest of the reading is responding to this feeling like you just did something wrong.

我认为其中一部分就是允许对方做出回应，你不必——我想也许更……我不太喜欢‘中立’这个词。

And I think that part of it is just allowing the person to respond, and you don't have to I think maybe being more I don't love the word neutral.

我不……我并不真正相信中立。

I don't I don't really believe in neutrality.

但是，是的，只是试着保持空间，而不是变得防御性或削弱自己的权威，这很难。

But, yeah, just trying to hold the space as opposed to becoming defensive or deflating your own authority, which is hard.

对吧？

Right?

我不确定你是否能从自己的实践中举个例子，但是，是的，我认为这有助于人们预见它，并明白这是过程的一部分。

I don't know if you can give an example from your own practice, but, yeah, I think it helps for people to anticipate it and just know that it's part of the process.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我记得有一次活动，那是一个占星学会议。

I mean, I just remember I had this event where there was like an astrology conference.

那是为专业占星师举办的，他们组织了一个活动，让几位占星师为一位现场观众做星盘解读，看看谁做得更好。

It was for professional astrologers, and they organized a thing where like several astrologers would do a chart reading of like a live person and see who did a better job.

几位占星师专注于此人星盘中的某个特定领域，指出那里有多个行星聚集，这一生活领域充满了活跃的能量。

A few of the astrologers are focusing in on a specific area of the person's chart and saying some things that it was an area where there was a stellium and there's a lot of activity in that area of the life.

到了最后，这个人本应被要求确认哪些内容准确、哪些不准确，但他们却根本没有深入任何细节。

And the person got up at the end and they were supposed to, we assumed, acknowledge what was right and what was wrong, but they just didn't really go into anything.

这让人感到有些困惑，后来才得知，他们只是不太愿意去触碰那个特定领域，也不愿在公众面前谈论它，这完全可以理解。

And so it was a bit of a mystery and then it turned out later they just weren't comfortable, like, going into that specific area and and, like, talking about it publicly, which was understandable.

但这确实是个意外，也给我们上了一课，让我们意识到在不同情境下，有时会出现这类意想不到的情况。

But it was a little bit of a curveball, and it was, like, an interesting lesson in that context just in terms of of different scenarios that can sometimes happen.

但归根结底，所有这些都只是为说明一点：这些都是一些可能遇到的意外情况，它们表明即使在当下看起来你似乎错了，你仍可能是对的。

But, ultimately, all of that's just, like, precursors to saying these are different, like, curveballs that you may have that can indicate instances where you can still be correct even if it seems like you're not in the moment.

但最终，关键的一点是：犯错也没关系。

But ultimately, the final point is just it's also okay to be wrong.

我认为这正是你所说的，你必须在不同情境中学会接受这一点，优雅地面对，并继续进行解读，即使某些部分没有引起共鸣或没有产生预期效果。

And I think that's part of what you're saying and that that's something you have to get used to in different context and just doing that gracefully and then continuing the reading if even if there's certain parts that aren't hitting or aren't resonating for some reason.

因为有时候，这恰恰在向你传递有价值的信息——当你所说的内容或采取的方法没有如预期般奏效时。

Because sometimes that can be telling you something valuable if something that you're saying or some approach that you're taking isn't working out as well as you expect.

这种反馈很有价值，可以据此做出调整。

That can be valuable to have that sort of feedback and then to adjust accordingly.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我认为这一点很重要。

So I I think that's important.

而且这一点也很重要，因为许多对占星术持怀疑态度的人会说，所有占星师都只是在进行冷读，

And it's also important because many skeptics of astrology, they will just say that all astrologers are just cold reading and

哦，哇。

Oh, wow.

任何只依赖占星术的人，只要占星术看起来在某种程度上是正确的，那也只是因为人们倾向于认同那些被说成是与他们个性相符的陈述，如果某事被说成是他们个性的一部分，人们就会不加质疑地接受。

Anybody who only astrology To whatever extent astrology seems to be correct, it's just because people will tend to agree with statements that are supposed to be that are said or put in the in the context of their personality and people will just take things for granted if it's said to be part of their personality.

但任何做过占星咨询的人都知道，不，实际上并非如此。

But anybody that's done an astrological consultation will know that no, actually, that's not true.

如果占星师说的内容与客户的现实生活不相符，大多数情况下，客户都会很坦率地指出：‘不对，这不符合我的情况’或‘这没发生过。’

That clients, if you say something that's not accurate about their life, will tend to most of the time be very open and just say like, No, that doesn't resonate or No, that hasn't happened.

大多数怀疑论者声称占星咨询中存在的那种冷读假设，实际上根本没有发生，或者并非他们以为的那样普遍。

That the sort of presumption of cold reading that most skeptics claim is going on with astrology consultations is actually not not really happening at all or is not this prevalent thing that they assume it to be.

是的。

Yeah.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

我很喜欢这一点。

I love that.

在你与怀疑论者的那期节目中，你谈到了确认偏误。

That's in your you're talking about confirmation bias in the episode with skeptics.

我确实认为这就是我喜欢行运和相位的原因，因为，这会让解读变得越来越个人化。

And I do think that's why I love transits and aspects because, again, it gets more and more personal.

那期节目中你说到的一点让我很有共鸣，就是，你假设我总是希望占星术能奏效，因为我确实常说怀疑是我实践的一部分，这更多是在说我也一直在尝试进行自己的观察研究。

And something I resonated with that you say in that episode is, like, you're assuming that I want this to work all the time because I do often say that doubt is part of my practice, which is more in the sense that I'm I'm also always trying to do my own observational research.

而客户们也为我建立了一个数据库，特别是与名人以及那些拥有更多公开信息的人合作时。

And the clients also creates a database for me, especially also working with celebrities and people who have a lot more public information.

说实话，我不打算撒谎。

You know, I'm not gonna lie.

这确实极大地丰富了我的实践，因为我们对他们了解很多，而对陌生人则不然。

It's, like, pretty enriching to my practice because there are a lot of things that we know about them that we don't know about strangers.

因此，你可以开始看到一些模式浮现出来，这有助于发展你自己的解读词汇。

And so you can start to see patterns emerge that help, like, develop your own vocabulary.

另外还有一件事，虽然有点跑题，但相关的是，真正让我着迷并开始逐渐转变为占星学信徒的，是在我为我姐姐、父母以及祖父母绘制星盘的时候。

And it really another thing that this is a tangent, related is one of the things that made me really intrigued and kind of like start transitioning more to like a believer in astrology is when I did my sister's charts, my parents' charts, and my grandparents' charts.

而且这些都是相似能量和相位的不同排列组合。

And it was all these different permutations of similar energy and aspects.

我和我的姐妹们，月亮都落在第十二宫。

And me and my sisters all have our moon in the twelfth house.

我为很多兄弟姐妹做过星盘，但我发现兄弟姐妹总是有相同的宫位落点，这种情况并不特别常见。

And I've done a lot of charts for siblings, and I haven't found that to be super common, that siblings always have the same house placement.

我的母亲当时怀孕并分娩，离她的祖国非常非常遥远，同时，她也在哀悼，处理着幸存者内疚，这些都与她刚刚经历的事情有关，也是她不得不离开祖国的处境的一部分。

And my mother was pregnant and birthing very, very far from her home country, and also, like, grieving and dealing with survivor's guilt around things that she had just experienced that made her that were part of her condition of having to leave her home country.

所以有些事情就是这样，作为占星师，我觉得这不仅仅是冷读术或确认偏误。

And so there are certain things like that where, you know, as an astrologer, I'm like, this isn't just, like, cold reading confirmation bias.

你知道的吗？

You know?

这其实是我在保持怀疑态度的同时，主动做研究、寻找这些浮现出来的模式。

Like, this is me actively being skeptical doing the work and researching and finding these patterns that emerge.

我只是分享这一点，因为我觉得当人们假设从事占星实践的人从未经历过自己的怀疑之旅，以及是什么让他们最终走到这一步——不管我们想用什么词来形容——达到足以建立自己实践的信念时，这真的很让人沮丧。

And I just share that because, you know, I I feel like it's also frustrating when people assume that practicing astrologers didn't go through their own journey of skepticism and what brought them to this place of of kind of, I don't know whatever word we want to use, but belief enough to have their own practice.

是的。

Yeah.

所以这跑题了。

So that's a tangent.

但没错，我只是想分享一下。

But yeah, I just wanted to share.

不，这个观点非常好。

No, that's a great point.

每一位成为专业占星师的人，都曾亲身体验过这种方法的有效性，认识到占星现象确实存在于宇宙中，天体运动与地球事件之间存在着某种关联——尽管原因未明，但这正是占星学的核心。

That each astrologer everybody that's become a professional astrologer has had experience of like seeing that this thing works, that the phenomenon of astrology exists in the universe, that there is this correlation between celestial movements and earthly events for some reason, but that's that's the core of astrology.

一旦你开始注意到这一点，并发现它确实有效且如此普遍，它就会成为让大多数占星师着迷的事物，以至于有时他们愿意毕生致力于研究和解开这个谜团。

And once you start noticing that and noticing that that works and that it's as pervasive as it is, it becomes something that most astrologers are just fascinated by and want to sometimes dedicate their life to studying and unraveling the mystery of that.

我认为，这正是我们所有人的核心动力：那种对‘它竟然真的有效、它竟然真的存在’的惊奇感。而我们常常被告知，在当代社会、科学甚至宗教的语境下，它并非如此。

And I think that's the the core motivation for for all of us is just the sense of wonderment that that actually works and that that's a thing, which we're we're often told that it's not, you know, in contemporary society or in terms of of science or even religion.

但一旦你发现它是一个真实存在的现象，就很难再转身离开，或者去忽视、忘记它的存在了。

But once you discover that it is a legitimate phenomenon, it's hard to sort of turn away from that or to to, you know, ignore that or forget that it exists.

是的。

Yeah.

对我来说，要转身离开真的非常困难。

It was very hard for me to turn away from.

而且我觉得有趣的是，我们会有选择性地接受某些事物并赋予其合法性。

And I think it's interesting the things that we selectively accept and legitimize.

比如说，好吧。

Like, okay.

是的。

Yeah.

月亮对交配、农耕和周期等都有影响。

The moon has, you know, an effect on mating and, like, you know, farming and cycles.

但这是我唯一能接受的孤立例子。

But then that's the only, like, isolated example I'll accept.

对吧？

Right?

所以我认为这还涉及到一种观念，即什么才是合法的知识形式，而什么又被视为——通常也带有性别色彩——比如灵性体系被认为是女性化的，对吧？

So I think it also goes into kind of, like, notions of what is a legitimate form of knowledge versus what gets cast as it's also gendered often that, like, spiritual systems are feminine or right?

这些事物往往以各种方式被高度政治化。

There's, like, all these kind of ways that these things are very politicized.

我还想说，我不知道你对此有何看法，但就我而言，在与客户建立关系的过程中——让我们回到最初的观点——我确实从一开始就尝试接纳这种可能性，这样即使我错了，也不会让我感到巨大的冲击。

And I will say also, I don't know what your take on this is, but actually in my part of my context building with clients to just bring it back to our original point is that I do try and welcome that from the beginning so that if I am wrong, it doesn't also feel like this big shock to me.

就像，我从一开始就在邀请他们去信任自己的直觉。

Like, I kind of from the beginning, am inviting them to, like, trust their intuition.