神话占星与金星逆行——与阿里埃尔·古特曼

但也许我们可以稍微谈谈神话在占星学中是如何被用作解释原则的，以及这种方法的核心是什么。

But maybe we could talk a little bit about how myth is used as an interpretive principle in astrology and what that approach is about.

对我来说，这始于伊莱诺·巴赫的书，她将四位女神引入占星世界，作为前四颗小行星，这实际上是深入探索了她们的神话。

I think for me, it began with the idea going that back to Eleanor Bach's book that to introduce the four goddesses to the world into the astrological world as asteroids, the first four asteroids that were discovered, that it was really delving into their mythology.

我意识到，当我刚开始上第一堂占星课时，我就有自己的疑问：为什么土星被这样解释？

And I realized that because I had had my own questions when I began my first astrology class, why is Saturn interpreted like this?

为什么木星却被放在那边，像那样？

Why is Jupiter way over here like that?

谁

Who

决定的？

decided that?

所有这些为什么、为什么、为什么的问题。

All these why, why, why questions.

我们其实从未真正深入探究过所有行星及其神话和神话背景。

The idea that we haven't really looked inside of all the planets and their myths and their mythology.

我的意思是，有些人可能会这么说，但大多数情况下，星座和行星通常被视为关键词。

I mean, some people would say them, but mostly signs and planets tend to be keywords.

当时市面上大多数占星学所谓的‘食谱书’都充满了大量关键词。

Most of the astrological, what do you call it cookbooks available around the time had a lot of keywords.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而我想真正讲述它们的故事：行星或星座是如何获得这些特质的？背后的故事是什么？等等。

And I wanted to really tell their stories, like how did the planet or the sign get that attribute, what was the story behind the story and all that?

所以我们就这样做了。

So we did that.

我认为另一件事是，肯和我在相遇之前就已经不自觉地走上了相同的道路。

I think the other thing, Ken and I were crossing paths before we met without even knowing it.

我们都住在圣地亚哥。

We both lived in San Diego.

我们都住在圣达菲。

We both lived in Santa Fe.

我当时正要去圣达菲，而他那时去了圣地亚哥。

And I was going to Santa Fe about the time he went to San Diego.

他在圣地亚哥的同一个区域定居下来，吸引了许多曾经找我看过星盘的客户，他们总会问：‘星盘上这些小符号，比如谷神星、智神星、婚神星、灶神星，代表什么？’

And he settled in the same area of San Diego and got a lot of clients that had previously had their charts read by me, and they would say, Well, what are these little symbols on the chart like Ceres, Pallas, Juno, Vesta?

当我们见面时，他告诉我：‘为了回答这些客户的问题，我不得不去研究它们。’

And he said to me at that time when we met, he said, Well, I had to go study them to answer these clients' questions.

但肯主修的是希腊神话。

But Ken was a Greek mythology major.

他已经在加州大学系统的一所大学获得了该领域的学位，因此对神话已经相当了解。

He had already had a degree in that from one of the University of California state systems, so he already knew quite a bit about myths.

当我们最终相遇时，我对他说：‘你看，我刚刚开始接触神话，它们正四处弥漫。’

And when we finally got together and I said, look, I've just picked up Myth was swirling around.

约瑟夫·坎贝尔，还有莉兹·格林，都在优美地探讨行星的神话。

Joseph Campbell, Liz Greene was writing beautifully about the myths of planets.

约瑟夫·坎贝尔的系列作品也刚刚出版。

And Joseph Campbell's series was out.

就在那个时期，二十世纪八十年代中后期到九十年代初，占星学领域中卡尔·荣格的相关内容也伴随着神话的爆发而兴起。

And just in the astrological Carl Jung's stuff, everything was exploding in myths around this time, mid to late eighties, early nineties.

我又重新拿起了埃迪丝·汉密尔顿的神话著作，我记得很清楚。

And I I had picked up Edith Hamilton's book on mythology again, and I remember.

书中开篇第一句话说，最初有十二位奥林匹斯神，这句话突然让我有了全新的感受。

And one of the first lines in the book said something like, In the beginning, there were 12 Olympians, and then suddenly that had a new ring to me.

哦，对了，我们也有十二个星座。

Oh, well, we have 12 signs.

这里一定存在某种联系。

There has to be some kind of connection here.

于是我决定探索一下，如何将十二位奥林匹斯神与十二星座联系起来。

And so I wanted to set out and see how we could bring the 12 Olympians and the 12 signs together.

我把这个想法告诉了肯，于是我们开始反复讨论这个想法。

And I told Ken about this, and so we kind of went back and forth with it.

那时候我们还没有电子邮件。

We didn't have email then.

我们当时确实用着笨重的电脑打字，但那种感觉就是点点。

We did have clunky computers that we wrote on, but it was kind of that dot dot.

对。

Right.

你知道的？

You know?

是的。

Yes.

小小的点点东西。

Little dot dot things.

总之

Anyway

信鸽之类的东西。

carrier pigeons and stuff.

你知道的？

You know?

但这本书的妙处在于，他会先写自己的部分，比如关于木星的部分，而我写我的部分，然后我们把两者合并，删掉所有我们重复说过的内容。

But the beauty of the book is that he would write his section, let's say, on Jupiter, and I would write mine, And then we'd put them together, and we'd take out all the things that we had both said.

而且他也是一个很好的编辑。

And then he was a good editor too.

他会把我们的内容巧妙地融合成一篇非常连贯的章节，以至于多年后书出版了，我回头再看时，常常忘记：这部分到底是谁写的？

He wove them together into a pretty seamless chapter then that sometimes afterwards when the book was published many years later, would go back and I would forget, Now who wrote that?

那是他写的，还是我写的？但我们的想法实在太相似了。

Was it him or my But our ideas were so similar.

我们对任何事情都没有分歧。

Didn't disagree on anything.

当然。

Sure.

所以，神话占星学就是这样诞生的。

So that's how mythic astrology came up.

实际上，当时他所接触到的古代文献中，只有这一篇，那是在‘前景计划’和所有翻译工作开始之前的事了。

And actually, the only one in the ancient writings that he had come up with at the time and this was before you know, Project Hindsight and all the translations were going on Mhmm.

找到了一份马尼利乌斯写的文本，其中谈到了众神。

Found a text by Manilius that talked about the gods.

马尼利乌斯写的关于众神的内容比关于行星的还要多。

Manilius wrote more about the gods than the planets.

他确实写了一些占星内容，但更多是围绕众神展开的。

He did write some astrology, but it was more about the gods.

因此，他将十二宫的主宰权赋予了十二位奥林匹斯神祇，比如阿耳忒弥斯、阿波罗、赫尔墨斯等等。

And so he was giving rulership to the 12 signs of the 12 Olympians, Artemis and Apollo and Hermes and Mhmm.

宙斯。

Zeus.

对。

Right.

所以，神话占星学的前提是，正如你所说，当时已经存在大量围绕约瑟夫·坎贝尔和卡尔·荣格等人著作的思潮，认为不同文化中的神话可以作为理解渗透于我们文化中、或以不同方式体现在人们生活中的普遍原型或心理动态的切入点。

So so the premise of mythic astrology then I mean, there was already a lot swirling around through the works of people, like you said, through Joseph Campbell and Carl Jung that myth and the myths that different cultures used could be an access point for understanding broader archetypal or psychological dynamics that permeate our culture or that manifest in different people's lives in different ways.

这本身早已是一个既存的观点。

That was already a preexisting notion in and of itself.

但你们后来开始将神话应用于行星，通过研究这些天体名称背后的神话，来更好地理解行星的原型。

But then what you guys started doing was applying mythology to the planets as an access point for understanding the archetype of the planet better by investigating the myths associated with the things that celestial bodies were named after.

这已经是人们试图理解谷神星、灶神星、婚神星等小行星的主要途径了，你们后来也将这种方法应用到其他领域，比如克洛诺斯或土星的神话是什么等等。

And that was already the primary access point for how people were trying to understand the asteroids like Ceres and Vesta and Juno and so on and so forth, you started applying that to the other areas like what is the myth of Cronos or Saturn or what have you.

对吧？

Right?

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

所以我们深入研究了许多相关的神话故事。

So we delved into a lot of the stories about that.

而且，正如你所说，肯当时也深度参与了吠陀占星学。

And Ken, as you said, he was involved very much in Vedic astrology at the time too.

所以，还有很多来自吠陀占星术和印度神话的故事也包含在内。

So a lot of stories from Vedic astrology also, Hindu mythology are also in there.

是的。

Mhmm.

我们还借鉴了其他文化的元素，比如埃及、巴比伦或其他地方的一些内容，甚至讨论过：罗马诸神的名字其实早于希腊，他们原本有自己的神祇，但当希腊逐渐衰落、罗马崛起时，他们基本上将希腊的神祇、神话和万神殿融入了自己的体系。

And we have some things from other cultures where we'd pick up something about Egypt or, obviously, Babylonia or other places and even talk about how the gods who were named after the Roman gods pretty much They had their own gods before Greece, but they pretty much incorporated the Greek gods and myths and the Greek pantheon into their system when Greece was kind of sliding down and Rome was kind of rising to power and all of that.

是的。

Mhmm.

所以我们后来也谈到了这一点。

So we talked about that too.

但大部分内容还是回归到荣格的原型理论，你知道的，我们就是这样，第一本书也因此命名为《神话占星学：星盘中的原型》之类的名字。

But for the most part, it goes back to Jung's archetypes, you know, that we And that's how the first book was named, Mythic Astrology Archetypes in the Horoscope or something like that.

后续的印刷版本中，书名已经更改。

The name has been changed in subsequent printings.

副标题也改过，但核心内容确实是《星盘中的原型》。

The subtitle has been changed, but it really is Archetypes in the Horoscope.

嗯。

Mhmm.

好的。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

我很好奇，你当时是否已经开始针对这些内容与客户合作了？

And I'm curious, were you already starting to work with clients around these types of things?

嗯。

Mhmm.

哦，讨论这些神话内容，好的。

Oh, Discussing these mythic Okay.

在我发布任何内容之前，我都会先进行实际测试。

Never write anything that I'm gonna publish until I've tested it on.

当然。

Sure.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

我自己、家人、朋友、客户，不管是谁。

Myself, family members, friends, clients, whatever.

这种方法是什么？

What is the approach?

所以，在坐下来绘制星盘时，方法的一部分是，如果你看到某个行星或天体比较突出，就可以向他们讲述或解释该行星及其神话故事。

So part of the approach though in sitting down and delineating a chart is if you see a certain planet or a celestial body that's prominent, then you might talk to them about or explain part of the mythology of that planet and the mythological story.

而在向对方讲述这个故事时，如果他们的星盘中该行星比较突出，这个故事可能会以某种方式引起他们的共鸣。

And that sometimes in telling that story to the person, it's gonna resonate with them a certain way if they have that planet as prominent in their chart.

嗯。

Mhmm.

好的。

Okay.

对女性来说，一个流行的主题是得墨忒耳和珀耳塞福涅的母女神话。

A popular one for women is the series, the Demeter Persephone myth of the mother and the daughter.

如果她们的星盘中有谷神星、冥王星、处女座、天蝎座、月亮，或者这些天体中的任何一个落在这些星座中，或者它们以某种方式组合在一起。

And if they have Ceres, the asteroid Ceres, the planet Pluto, the signs Virgo, the signs Scorpio, the Moon, and either of those signs are Ceres, in any of those signs and any kind of sort of combination thereof.

我不确定。

I don't know.

星盘就像一锅汤，你需要从中提取出某些特定的成分。

The chart is kind of like a little it's a soup, and you have to kind of extract certain kinds of ingredients out of it.

总之，

Anyway,

当

when

当我看到这个主题时，我就会开始讲述得墨忒耳和珀耳塞福涅的故事。

I would see that theme, I would start the story of Demeter and Persephone.

大多数时候，几乎是每次，我都会得到这样的回应：‘哦，是的，没错。’

And most of the time, almost all the time, I would get the response, Oh, my, yes.

我

I

我的意思是，就在前几天，我遇到一个太阳与凯瑞斯合相的人，她的星盘中恰好与土星成精确的刑相。

mean, just even the other day, I had a Sun conjunct Ceres person come in that had somehow oh, it was square Saturn, exactly square Saturn in the chart.

我们立刻开始谈论母亲以及她的影响。

And right away, we started talking about the Mother and the influence.

她说：别跟我提我妈妈了。

She said, Oh, don't even start with my mother.

你知道的，就是那种情况。

You know, it was kind of like that.

快速说一下，凯瑞斯和珀尔塞福涅的神话是什么？或者神话的简短版本是什么？

Really quickly, what is the myth of Ceres and Persephone, or what's the short version of the myth?

简短版本是：得墨忒耳，大地与谷物丰收的女神，有一个女儿叫珀尔塞福涅。

The short version is that Demeter, the goddess of Earth and the goddess of the grain and harvest, had a daughter, Persephone.

有一天，珀尔塞福涅正在田野里采花，突然大地裂开，哈迪斯驾着他的黑色马车冲了出来。

And Persephone was out in the fields picking flowers one day, and suddenly the Earth opened up and outshot Pluto on Hades, his chariot, his dark horses in his chariot.

他一把抓住她，把她带到了冥界，她一路尖叫着被带走。

And he grabbed her, and he took her to the underworld, and she came screaming all the way there.

得墨忒耳没有亲眼看到这一幕，但她立刻意识到出了事，女儿不见了。

And Demeter didn't see the act, but she knew immediately something had happened, and her daughter was missing and went missing.

她陷入了漫长的悲痛之中，拒绝让大地再生长任何东西。

And she went into this very long grief process where she refused the Earth to grow anymore.

大地无法再产出任何庄稼，因为她正在为失去的女儿哀悼。

The Earth could not produce any more crops because she was mourning for her lost daughter.

最后，宙斯不得不介入并查明真相。

And finally, Zeus had to intercede and find out.

他们早就知道是哈迪斯前来掳走了女儿，于是派赫尔墨斯前往冥界。

And they knew all along that it was Hades that had come and taken the daughter, And so, they sent Hermes down to the underworld.

赫尔墨斯是神话中少数能够自由进出冥界而不受伤害的神祇之一。

Hermes was one of the few figures in mythology that could enter and leave the underworld unscathed.

他下到冥界，试图进行谈判和交涉。

And he went down to try to bargain and all that.

这个想法是，如果珀耳塞福涅没有吃任何冥界的果实，她就可以回到母亲身边。

And the idea was that if Persephone hadn't eaten any of the fruit of the underworld, she could come back to her mother.

但她确实吃了一些冥界的果实——石榴籽，而石榴正是与她相关的水果。

But she had eaten some fruit of the underworld, the pomegranate seeds, and the pomegranate is a fruit that is associated with her.

于是，他们达成了一个协议。

And so, they struck a bargain.

你每年有六个月可以和母亲在人间生活，另外六个月则要和普鲁托待在冥界。

Six months you can be with your mother in the upper world, and six months in the underworld with Pluto.

是的。

Mhmm.

如今，珀耳塞福涅经历了成长与转变，适应了冥界的生活。

Now Persephone evolved and grew that transformation to the underworld.

她成为了冥界的女王。

She became queen of the underworld.

冥界。

Underworld.

这一切都源于希腊神话，甚至我们的故事中，曾经存在一个以女性为中心的神灵世界，由母神和女性神祇掌管着生活的各个领域。

And this is all through Greek mythology and even our stories that there was a world of deities in place that had been more female centered, mother goddesses and female goddesses that were in charge of all these different departments of life.

当希腊神话传入时，你会反复看到关于强奸、绑架、掠夺和征服的故事，通常是神祇以某种方式征服女神，然后将这片领域据为己有。

And when Greek mythology came in, you'll see repeated stories of rape, abduction, capturing, overtaking, and it's usually the god overtaking the goddess in some way and then claiming that territory as his.

例如，宙斯与许多不同的女神以及众多凡间女子结合，生下了遍布各地的后代。

For instance, Zeus procreated with many different goddesses but also many mortal women to produce offspring everywhere.

这或许是一种说法，表明所有的后代都将与他相关，并且血统将通过父系而非母系传承。

That may have been one way of saying that now all the offspring were going to be related to him, and it was going to come through patriarchal line rather than the matriarchal line.

因此，当时文化正在发生巨大转变，而许多这些故事都与此相关。

So a lot of that was the culture changing at that time, but a lot of these stories are involved with that.

所以，关于刻瑞斯、珀耳塞福涅、普鲁托这些人物或相关星座的故事，无论你如何组合，都可能在你生命中以某种重要方式上演过。

So to the idea of the story, Ceres, Persephone, Pluto, whatever combination of figures you have or signs with that, there is some inkling of that story has probably played out in your life in an important way.

这就是我当时试图从人们那里收集足够信息和反馈的原因，以确认：是的，这确实是真的。

And that's what I was trying to get enough information and feedback from people at the time to say, yes, this is true.

我的意思是，雅典娜讲述的是另一个故事。

I mean, Athena gives you a different story.

她是父亲的女儿。

She's the father's daughter.

珀耳塞福涅是母亲的女儿。

Persephone is the mother's daughter.

对这些有不同的解读方式。

And there's just different ways interpret that them.

对。

Right.

朱诺（赫拉）代表的是伙伴关系。

Juno Hera was the partnership.

她是宙斯的妻子。

She was the wife of Zeus.

如果你的朱诺能量很强，就会有强烈的联结与合作的渴望。

And so, you have a strong Juno, you have a strong urge to partnering.

更深层的故事是，朱诺放弃了她自己的力量，去成全配偶的力量。

And a deeper story with that is about Juno giving up her own power to Mary power.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以这在星盘中也经常出现。

So that often shows up in charts as well.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但没错，一旦你开始观察并深入探索星盘中的原型世界，这些故事就会自然浮现。

But, yeah, once you just start looking and walking down, you know, walking through the archetypal landscape of the chart, the stories kind of emerge.

是的。

Yeah.

在我翻阅你的书籍时，有一件事让我特别感兴趣，那就是你提到不仅要关注星盘中突出的行星故事，还要考虑那些在你生活中过于薄弱或过于强烈的事物作为平衡。

What was really interesting to me looking through your books, one of the things was that you were talking about not only looking at the stories of the planets that were prominent in the chart, but potentially counterbalancing things that were either too weak or too strong in your life.

因此，某件事并不一定非得在你的星盘中突出，才值得你关注它的故事。

And so, it's not just that something would have to be prominent in your chart for it to be an important story for you to pay attention to.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

是的，正是如此。

Yeah, exactly.

然后第二卷《神话占星术实践》中，我们尝试了这一点。

Then the second volume, Mythic Astrology Applied, we tried to work with that.

它叫做《与行星共疗》。

It's called Healing with the Planet.

那么，如果你的星盘中某个行星过于突出，你想稍微削弱它呢？

So what if you have this planet overstated in your chart and you want to tone it down a little bit?

或者如果你的星盘中根本没有这个行星，你想把它引入进来呢？

Or what if you don't have it at all and you want to bring it in?

对。

Right.

所以我们当时在探讨一些更富有魔法色彩的方法，比如召唤、梦境作业、宝石以及疗愈技巧，这些都可以用来为某个特定行星或原型设立祭坛，从而将其引入你的生活，对吧。

So we were looking at more magical kinds of things, invocation and dream work and gemstones and healing things that could be how to set up an altar for this particular planet or archetype to bring it into your life Right.

或者我在想另一种情况：有人的出生图中没有某个天体或某个神话主题，但后来经历了某种行运，比如冥王星行运，突然间这个原型就开始在他们的生活中显现。

Or I'm thinking of another scenario where somebody doesn't have a certain celestial body or certain myth prominent in their birth chart, but then they go through, let's say, like a transit, like a Pluto transit, and then suddenly that archetype is manifesting in their life.

如果你要讲述一个与之相关的神话故事，那么在他们生命中的这个阶段，这个故事可能会与他们产生强烈的共鸣，而在其他时候则可能不会。

And if you were to tell that story or tell a story, myth related to that, how they would perhaps really resonate with it at that point in their life versus at other times when they might not.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这正是你刚才提到的一个想法。

And that is one idea that you're just saying.

这让我一次又一次地想起，我曾多次看到冥王星对谷神星的行运。

It's reminded me of over and over again I've seen this a transit, for instance, of Pluto to Ceres.

嗯。

Mhmm.

冥王星的行运是长期的。

And Pluto's a long term transit.

它需要好几年才能完成。

It takes a couple of years to complete.

嗯。

Mhmm.

真的，即使你只用很小的容许度，一到两度，也需要很长时间。

Really, if you're gonna use even a tiny orb, one or two degree orb, takes a while.

这清楚地表明这是一场监护权争夺战。

And that has come down to really clearly mean this is a custody battle.

这是关于……我见过很多离婚的人，他们的争斗都是为了孩子，是的。

This is the fight between And I've seen that in a lot of people who are getting divorced, and the fight is over the children Yeah.

或者有时候甚至是为了狗。

Or the And sometimes even the dog.

哦，天哪。

Oh, wow.

你知道吗？

You know?

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

我正在试着想想其他的神话。

I'm trying to think of other mythology.

你昨天我们聊这个的时候也提到过，当时占星家最早主要就是通过这种方式来理解小行星及其含义的，后来你也把这种方法应用到了传统行星上。

You also said at one point when we were talking about this last night that obviously that was the primary access point that astrologers were using very early on for understanding the asteroids and understanding their meaning, you started applying that to the traditional planets as well.

比如，水星或赫耳墨斯，以及与赫耳墨斯相关的某些神话，因为赫耳墨斯是众神的信使，这些故事对于理解水星在占星学中的角色也很有帮助。

So for example, Mercury or Hermes and some of the myths associated with Hermes since Hermes was like the messenger of the gods end up being relevant in understanding the astrological role that Mercury plays as well.

嗯。

Mhmm.

直到今天，我最喜欢的赫耳墨斯故事就是：他是个聪明的小婴儿。

Well, my favorite story to this day of Hermes is that he's this clever little baby.

他一出生，就什么都知道。

He's born, and right away, he knows everything.

宙斯其实对他这么小就如此聪明、机智感到非常骄傲。

And Zeus was actually quite proud of how smart he was, such a youngster and so smart and clever and all that.

但他有一件事做了，他是阿波罗的弟弟，阿波罗的弟弟，他偷了阿波罗的金色牛群，那些神圣的牛。

But one of the things he did, he was the brother of Apollo, the younger brother of Apollo, and he stole Apollo's golden cattle, sacred cattle.

明白吗？

Okay?

那些牛被严密看守着，但赫尔墨斯还是能悄悄溜进去，打开门，把所有牛放出来。

They were really protected, but Hermes was able to sneak in, open the gate, and let all the cattle out.

为了避免被抓住，赫尔墨斯决定倒着走路，这样脚印看起来像是朝另一个方向去的。

And so as not to get caught, Hermes decided to walk backwards so that the footprints looked like they were going a different way.

所以他们花了好一阵子才弄清楚谁是小偷。

And so it took a while for them to figure out who was the thief here.

当他们最终发现是赫尔墨斯时，就把他押到奥林匹斯山，宙斯说：‘你真是个聪明的孩子。’

And then when they finally figured out it was Hermes, they marched him up to Mount Olympus, and Zeus said, Oh, you're such a clever child.

所以他没有惩罚他，但他们必须达成一项协议。

So he didn't give him any punishment, but they had to make a bargain.

阿波罗和赫尔墨斯显然必须和解，当时他们交换了神圣的信物。

Apollo and Hermes obviously had to make up, and they exchanged sacred totems at the time.

赫尔墨斯带着里拉琴。

Hermes had carried the lyre.

记得那个乐器吗？

Remember the musical instrument?

他出生的那一刻，恰好发现了一只乌龟。

The moment of his birth, he happened on a tortoise.

他说：哦，这里有只乌龟壳。

And he said, Oh, there's a tortoise shell.

我要用它做个里拉琴。

I'm gonna make a lyre out of it.

于是他有了这个，而阿波罗则有医疗之杖，也就是商神杖，他们当时就交换了。

And so he had that, and Apollo had the healing rod, the caduceus, so they exchanged at that time.

后来，阿波罗成为以里拉琴为象征的音乐之神，而赫尔墨斯则手持双蛇杖。

And then Apollo became the god of music with the lyre, and Hermes carried the double serpent Caduceus.

阿斯克勒庇俄斯手持单蛇杖，但赫尔墨斯拿的是双蛇杖。

Asclepius carries the single serpent rod, but Hermes carried the double.

但我喜欢这个故事的地方在于，每当天王星逆行时，我都会想到赫尔墨斯倒着走路，骗所有人以为偷牛的不是他，而他在逆行时就是那个爱捉弄人的小捣蛋鬼。

But what I like about that story is that I think of it every time Mercury goes retrograde, that Hermes walked backwards to fool everybody into thinking that somebody wasn't him that took the cattle, and he is that little trickster when he's retrograde.

是的。

Mhmm.

对。

Right.

所以这里就体现了他的顽皮特质。

So right there, that brings in the mischievousness.

这种顽皮特质在现代占星中不常被提及，但在古代占星中，它和机智创新一起，都是水星作为占星象征时可能在一个人生活中显现的特质。

It doesn't as often come up in modern, but especially in ancient astrology, this mischievousness as well as the inventiveness to Mercury as astrological significations that can manifest in a person's life.

是的。

Mhmm.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

当我与人们一起探讨这些神话故事时，我很好奇，最重要的目标是帮助人们认识到他们生活中的某一部分是更大整体中的一环，还是通过了解这个故事来改变某些东西？

And I'm curious when you work with people with these mythic stories, biggest is idea for people to recognize that part of their life is a piece of something bigger, or is it to change something by knowing that story?

理想情况下，两者都是。

Ideally, both.

嗯。

Uh-huh.

但仅仅意识到这可能是一个普遍的故事，就能减轻你个人的痛苦，让你不再觉得只有自己经历过这样的事。

But just recognizing sometimes that it's a universal story can take the personal sting out of it for you, like not thinking you're the only one that's had to endure something like that Right.

或者经历过那样的事。

Or go through that.

而且，这也让人们对阅读这些神话、更深入地了解自己的星盘产生了浓厚兴趣。

And it's also interested in gotten people interested so much in reading those myths and learning their chart more deeply.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我相信我们所有占星师都说过这句话：你从我的星盘里看到了这些？

Because I'm sure all of us astrologers have said this, You saw all that in my chart?

而且

And

他们生活中非常私密的事情。

very personal things in their life.

但我认为，如果你先从神话的角度讲述这个故事，而不是直接说：‘这发生在你身上了吗？’或者‘你经历过这个吗？’

But I think if you tell the story from the mythic point of view before approaching it like, Oh, this is what happened to you, or Did this happen to you even?

不要直接切入，而是说：‘当我看你星盘时，我想告诉你一个故事，是关于这个的。’

Going right in there but just saying, Well, when I look at your chart, there's a story that I want to tell you, and it's about this.

你如何与这个故事产生关联？

And how do you relate to that?

答案是：这就是我的人生故事。

And the answer is story of my life.

对。

Right.

因为这是占星师常遇到的问题之一，就像你说的，大多数占星书籍只是列出了行星可能表现的各种象征意义。

Because it's one of the issues that astrologers run into is, like you're saying, most astrology books just have a list of significations of possible manifestations of the planet.

但它们之所以这样列，是因为描述起来确实很困难。

But the reason they have that is because you can't describe It's difficult.

不可能完全描述出这个原型，因为行星的原型从定义上来说是超越性的，仿佛悬浮在现实之上或背后，而我们只能看到它在各种具体事物中的不同表现形式。

It's not possible to describe the archetype because the archetype of the planet is something by definition as an archetype that's transcendental or is like sort of hovering above or behind reality, and then we see manifestations of it in these manifold different significations of individual specific things.

是的。

Yeah.

但神话是一个有用的工具，因为它可能更接近一层，作为中间媒介，通过描述一些广泛而传奇性的故事和主题，来更贴近原型本身。

But myth is a useful tool then because it's probably like one level up as an intermediary that's getting closer to trying to describe the archetype by describing some of the stories and some of the themes in broad mythical or legendary sort of terms.

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

这些星体的原型，我认为因为你在丰富它们的性格，它们拥有完整而丰富的个性。

And these archetypes, I think with the planets because you're fleshing out their character, they have a full rich character.

它们几乎就像活生生、有呼吸的人一样，嗯。

They're actually a living, breathing kind of person almost Mhmm.

而不是像你说的那样，只是一些关键词。

Rather than, like you said, the keywords.

因为到底哪些关键词？

Because which keywords?

每个星座或星体都有一百个关键词。

There's a 100 keywords for this sign or planet.

到底哪个适用？

Which one apply?

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

尤其是水星。

Like especially Mercury.

不过这是个有趣的观点，因为这样一来，你几乎是在把行星视为某种智慧体，或认为外界存在某种活生生的原则，这确实让你更接近占星术那种近乎魔法的视角。

That's an interesting point though because then it's almost treating them planets as like intelligences or things that that there's are some principle out there that's alive and existing, which does bring you back more to that almost magical approach to astrology as well.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

原型只是某种形象的印记。

And archetypes are simply like imprints of an image.

我想我过去可能用错了动词。

I think I used to describe it probably not a verb.

它应该是一个名词。

It would be a noun.

你知道，它会是一个东西、一个人，或者某种具体事物的形象，而不是一个动作。

You know, it would be a thing or a person or an image of something tangible, not an action.

想想这些原型。

Think about the archetypes.

那么，什么是银行家？

So what's a banker?

华尔街的银行家会引发你星盘中的哪个原型？

A Wall Street banker is gonna be what archetype comes up in astrology for you on that.

在某种程度上，可能是土星，或者摩羯座，代表支撑社会的宏大结构。

To some degree, Saturn maybe or Capricorn in terms of big structures that underpin societies.

这并不是我唯一想到的，但却是第一个冒出来的。

That's not the only one that comes to mind, but that's the first one.

好的。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

所以你会去寻找那个。

So you would look for that.

或者那个旅行推销员，那会是什么？

Or the traveling salesman, what would that be?

我的意思是，这就像赫尔墨斯，或者说是水星，到

I mean, that's like Hermes or Yeah, Mercury to

没错。

exactly.

或者那个花大量时间在花园里收割庄稼、做各种农活并密切关注季节变化的女性或男性。

Or the woman that's spending all this time or man in their garden harvesting their crops and doing all this and paying close attention to the seasons.

顺便说一下，希腊神话中得墨忒耳和珀耳塞福涅的故事，其实正是用来解释季节更替的，因为我们有冬天。

By the way, that Greek myth on Demeter in Persephone really was a way to define the seasons because we have winter.

对。

Right.

当珀耳塞福涅在冥界时，我们就有冬天，而事实上，我们确实有冬天。

When Persephone is in the underworld, we have winter, and basically, we do have winter.

除非你生活在热带地区，否则你都会有夏季和冬季，因此你会经历这两种极端。

Unless you're in the tropical zones, you have summer and winter, and so you have the two extremes.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以，这不仅是为了说明这一点，也是为了展现一个人生命的循环。

And so it was to illustrate that, but it was also to illustrate the cycles of a person's life.

在深入研究了许多关于得墨忒耳和珀耳塞福涅的类似主题后，我得出的一个结论是：你是否是一个能够努力工作、高效完成任务，但之后又需要暂停一段时间，彻底退隐几个月或更久的人？

And one of the conclusions I came to with a lot of heavy type of Persephone Demeter kind of thing was, are you a person that feels like you can really work hard and really get the job done, but then you need to take some time off and really go into retreat for a few months or whatever?

这些人的回答通常是肯定的。

And these people would often say yes.

如果他们没有这样做，但内心有这种需求，我就会用这个神话来暗示：也许你该在日程中专门留出时间，好好照顾自己，因为我认为，这也是我们可以从这个故事中汲取的另一个重要启示。

Or if they didn't do it but felt the need to do it, I would illustrate the myth as just saying maybe it's a good idea for you to carve that into your schedule, taking care of yourself as much as just because I think that's another important element that we can take from that story.

但如今，由于我部分时间生活在欧洲，我发现美国人往往过度工作，总是想着工作，不停地奔波，总希望数据曲线不断上升。

But I do find now that I've been living in Europe part time I do find that Americans tend to be very overworked and always thinking about work and always going, going, going, and always wanting the graph to go up.

是的。

Right.

他们不擅长应对内心情绪的回落。

And they don't do well with the internal interior going back down.

我用月相周期作为图表，来表示你生命中最外向的时期、最内向的时期，以及你需要更多独处时间的阶段。

Like I use the Moon cycle as graphs of the Moon to be when you're the most extroverted time in your life, when you're more introverted, and when you need a little more private time.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

看来德墨忒尔故事中浮现的另一个主题是悲伤，关于悲伤的主题。

It seems like another theme that came up in the Demeter story was grief, themes of grief.

确实如此。

Very much so.

是的。

Yeah.

明白了。

Okay.

嗯。

Mhmm.

好的。

Alright.

所以，让我们看看，这可能是一个过渡点，即金星以及围绕金星的一些神话，因为最终这成为了你接下来几十年工作中涉及的一个转折点，特别是关于金星是晨星还是昏星的区分。

So let's see, a sort of transition point for that might be Venus and some of the mythology surrounding Venus because eventually that was a transition point into something you got into in the following decade or two with your work on Venus and especially the distinction between whether Venus is a morning star or an evening star.

我认为还有一些与之相关的古代美索不达米亚神话。

I think there was some other ancient Mesopotamian myths that were kind of connected with that.

我不确定你是否引入过这些内容。

I don't know if that's something that you brought in.

嗯，其实一直都有几个关于金星诞生的故事。

Well, no, there's always been a couple of stories of Venus's birth.

主要公认的是，金星的诞生地和宣称她是故乡的岛屿是塞浦路斯，阿佛洛狄忒最初就是来到塞浦路斯的。

Mainly, the mainly agreed upon birthplace and island that claims her is Cyprus, that is Aphrodite first came to Cyprus.

而且她确实来自近东地区。

And she did come from the Near East.

她来自更古老的文明。

She came from the older cultures.

但当时塞浦路斯属于希腊帝国和希腊世界，因此她被命名为阿佛洛狄忒，即‘海泡沫之女’。

But she was first named because Cyprus back then was a part of the Greek empire, the Greek world, and so she was named Aphrodite, she of the seafoam.

传说她是从塞浦路斯漂浮而来的。

And the story is that she came floating from Cyprus.

希腊人从塞浦路斯取走了她，并将她奉为自己的爱神。

Greece took her from Cyprus and claimed her as their love goddess.

但即使在今天，希腊也找不到供奉阿佛洛狄忒的神庙。

But even today in Greece, you don't find temples honoring Aphrodite.

真的找不到。

You really don't.

不像阿波罗、雅典娜、宙斯和其他一些神祇那样。

Not the way Apollo and Athena and Zeus and some of the others.

你真的必须去塞浦路斯，才能找到一个深深浸润在阿佛洛狄忒神话中的岛屿和国家。

You will really have to go to Cyprus to really find an island, a country steeped in the Aphrodite mythology.

所以根据传说，她是在那里诞生的，背景是克洛诺斯和乌拉诺斯——克洛诺斯用镰刀阉割了乌拉诺斯，以防止他继续再生，因为他残酷地虐待自己的孩子，对吧？

So she was said to have been born there from the backstory, Kronos and Uranus, the castration of Uranus by Kronos to prevent any more regeneration because he was terribly mistreating his children, right?

克洛诺斯手持镰刀站起身，说：‘看这里。’

And Cronos stood up with the sickle and said, Here.

生殖器落入海中，与海浪的泡沫混合，首先涌现出三位复仇女神，随后维纳斯诞生了。

And genitals fell into the sea mixed with the foam of the sea, and first arose the three Furies, and then came Venus.

在这样的行为之后，当然会诞生复仇女神，对吧？然后维纳斯才出现。

So in an act like that, of course, you're gonna have the Furies arise, okay, and then came Venus.

维纳斯有两面性。

Well, Venus has two sides.

她有两面。

She has two sides to her.

她是一种双重能量，一方面她不仅是光明、爱、优雅、美丽等一切美好的化身，但维纳斯也有黑暗的一面。

She's a dual energy, and part of it she's not just all light and love and grace and beauty and all the things that she is, but there's a darker side of Venus too.

是的。

Mhmm.

你可以在一些复仇女神身上找到这种特质。

And so, you can find that in some of the Furies.

被压抑的女性特质，或那些未被表达、未被倾听的愤怒的女性部分。

The mistreated feminine or the raging feminine parts that haven't been given voice or expression or whatever.

是的。

Mhmm.

这就是她主要的诞生故事。

So that's her main story of birth.

她来自塞浦路斯。

She comes from Cyprus.

她被称为阿佛洛狄忒。

She is called Aphrodite.

那是当时希腊世界最遥远的东方岛屿。

That's the island in the far, far east of the Greek world at that time.

但在西方还有一座叫基西拉的岛屿，他们也声称她是那里诞生的。

But there's also an island in the West that's called Kythera, and they claim her birth also.

但还有一个神话，说宙斯与狄俄涅——一位大地女神——结合，这位大地女神更加感性、更加贴近尘世。

But there's another myth where Zeus mated with Dion, an Earth goddess, and the Earth goddess is more sensual, more earthly.

因此，这位女神阿佛洛狄忒被称为阿佛洛狄忒·潘达摩斯，她更像金牛座的象征，关注生育、万物生长和繁衍后代之类的事情。

So this goddess Aphrodite was called Aphrodite Pandamos, and she was more like the Taurean, interested in fertility and growing things and producing children and that kind of thing.

而来自塞浦路斯的天界女神阿佛洛狄忒，因为她的诞生源于乌拉诺斯被割下的生殖器，所以被称为乌拉尼亚。

Whereas the celestial goddess Aphrodite from Cyprus, because it came from Uranus' severed genitals, it's Urania.

她是乌拉尼亚女神，即阿佛洛狄忒·乌拉尼亚，天界的女神。

She's goddess Urania, Aphrodite Urania, the celestial goddess.

所以，这两种解释其实存在一些差异。

So there's a bit of difference really in the interpretation.

我们昨天聊过这个话题，关于晨星与昏星，夜之金星与日之金星。

We were talking about this yesterday, the morning star versus the evening star, the night Venus, the day Venus.

我们这里有一张来自塞浦路斯博物馆的幻灯片。

And we have a slide here from the Cyprus Museum.

我不知道你有没有看到那张图片。

I don't know if you were able to get that.

哦，我觉得我没有展示出来。

Oh, I don't think I have that up.

你是说那两尊雕像吗？

You mean of the two statues?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

这种双面阿佛洛狄忒的描绘相当罕见，我以前还真没怎么见过。

That's a pretty rare depiction of the two Aphrodites that I haven't really seen.

我的意思是，世人通常只熟悉米洛的维纳斯或沃特维利的维纳斯，对吧？

I mean, the world is used to seeing Venus de Milo or the Voticelli Venus, right?

嗯。

Mhmm.

好的。

Okay.

但还有其他一些描绘方式。

But there's a couple of other depictions.

其中一种她是一位战士女神，手持弓箭，看起来几乎像一位亚马逊风格的阿佛洛狄忒。

One of her is a warrior goddess actually holding a bow and arrow and almost like an Amazon looking Aphrodite.

嗯。

Mhmm.

然后还有一种她的形象。

And then there's one of her.

就是右边那一个，和两位女神在一起的那一个。

That's the one right there on the right with the two goddesses.

是的。

Yeah.

让我看看能不能调出来。

Let me see if I can pull it up.

她在这里。

There she is.

这是来自尼科西亚塞浦路斯博物馆的展品。

So that's from the Cyprus Museum in Nicosia.

左边的那尊，我不确定你能不能看清楚，她穿着一件深色的斗篷。

And the one on the left, I don't know if you can make it out, but she's wearing a darker cloak.

右边的那尊穿着白色斗篷。

One on the right is wearing a white cloak.

她更像得墨忒耳——大地女神，象征婚姻、子女与家庭，也就是潘德摩斯女神。

She's more the Demeter Earth goddess, the marriage, children, family, the Pandemos goddess.

嗯。

Mhmm.

好的。

Okay.

而左边的那尊穿着深色斗篷。

Whereas the one on the left is wearing a darker cloak.

而且，如果你能放大看，斗篷上还有星星图案。

And the cloak, actually, if you can zoom in, it's got stars on it.

好的。

Okay.

所以她是天上的、夜空中的金星，也就是我们之前提到的昏星。

So it's like the celestial, the night sky Venus, the one that we were talking about that's the evening star.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

所以她掌管着世界中星空的部分，而大地女神维纳斯则掌管着世界中尘世的部分。

So she's in charge of the starry parts of the world, whereas the Earth goddess, Venus, is in charge of the earthly parts of the world.

嗯。

Uh-huh.

好的。

Okay.

嗯，这真是一个很好的过渡点。

Well, so that's a good transition point.

然后你二月份开始深入研究金星的占星学，发现那里有更多复杂的层面，金星作为占星中的象征符号，其内涵远比占星师通常赋予它的要丰富和深刻，在某些方面甚至拥有更大的力量，对吧？

Then into what you got into in the February was really researching and getting into the astrology of Venus and finding that there was much more complexity there and there was a lot more going on where Venus was a much more complicated and detailed astrological significator and had much greater power in some ways than astrologers would normally attribute to that as a significator in astrology, right?

是的。

Yeah.

我当时其实对金星的解读有点厌倦了。

I was actually a little bit fed up with interpretations of Venus.

那些解释太肤浅了，我觉得她远不止如此。

It was so superficial, I and felt like she's more than this.

在占星的众神体系中，唯有她能让我们真正地连接、感受——她远比我们赋予她的形象要丰富得多，不仅仅关乎关系，更关乎你内在的一切。

She alone in the astrological pantheon makes us connect and feel and really, she's so much more than what we're making her out to be, and not just about relationship but about what's inside of you and all of that.

但这一切完全是偶然发生的，就像当时占星学也是偶然找上我的一样。

But it was quite by accident, just like astrology kind of found me by accident at that time.

金星星象的资料自然而然地来到了我面前。

The Venus Star material came to me.

我根本没在主动寻找。

Wasn't looking.

我刚刚出版了第二本《神话占星》书籍，我想你作为作者自己也明白，当你在写一本书时，你就和它结了婚，生活中再无其他。

I had just come out with the second Mythic Astrology book, And I think you know from being an author yourself that you're married to a book when you're working on it, and you don't have any other life.

你完全沉浸其中。

You're just so immersed in it.

那本第二本《神话占星》刚出版，我想，哦，我又能过正常生活了。

And that second Mythic Astrology book had just come out, and I thought, oh, I can have a life again.

我可以透口气了。

I can come up for air.

我可以去看电影。

I can go to movies.

我可以出门了。

I can go out.

我不必再整天把脑袋埋在这本书里了。

I can just not having to be my head in this book the whole time.

对吧？

Right?

是的

Yeah.

我们再也不会写另一本书了。

Never we'll never write another book again.

我认为那是我立刻产生的想法。

I think it was my immediate hour.

对。

Right.

没错。

Exactly.

然后，当我正在研究2004年金星逆行周期的少量内容时，金星突然降临，整个星辰的启示一下子涌入我心中。

Then suddenly comes Venus in while I'm researching just a little bit of her retrograde cycle back in 2004, and the whole star thing drops into me.

我心想：天哪。

And I'm like, oh, no.

你真的没法拒绝金星，对吧？

You can't really say no to Venus, can you?

但当时我查阅了大量占星文献，搜遍了各家书店。

But I did search a lot of astrological literature at the time and combed the bookstores.

那时候我们还有书店。

We still had bookstores back then.

恐怕你得给年轻观众解释一下什么是书店。

You're gonna have to explain to our younger viewers what a bookstore is, I'm afraid.

是的。

Yeah.

我们在圣达菲有一家很棒的书店。

Well, we had this great one in Santa Fe.

圣达菲有一家非常棒的书店，由两位本地人经营，至今还在营业。

We have a really wonderful one in Santa Fe that's a local, a couple of locals that are still there.

那家书店充满了形而上学和灵性气息。

The ark was very metaphysically and spiritually involved.

我们所有的占星书籍和日历都是在那里买的。

That's where we get all our astrology books and things and calendars.

但当时还有一家大型连锁店，叫Borders，全美各地都有。

But there was big box store, what they call a big box store called Borders, and they were all around the country really.

我们也有Borders。

We had Borders.

在Borders关门之前，我们一直在博尔德的这家店买书。

We had to get Borders in Boulder up until it closed.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

所以Borders，我不确定这仅限于圣达菲，还是其他Borders门店也一样，但在圣达菲的店里，他们有一个巨大的区域，专门陈列形而上学、灵性、外星人理论以及你能想到的所有神秘主题的书籍，因为那里有庞大的受众群体。

So Borders, I don't know if it was just Santa Fe or if this was the rest of the Borders too, but they had a gigantic section in our store in Santa Fe on metaphysical books and spiritual and alien theories and outer everything you can imagine because there's an audience, big audience there for that.

我拍过的最好的照片之一就是在Borders拍的。

One of the best pictures I ever took was at Borders.

我们拍了一张莉莎站在一整排书架前的照片，那排书架上有二十本十二本书，时间是2010年或2011年。

We took a picture of Leisa standing in front of an entire bookshelf of twenty twelve books 2010 or 2011

或者2008年，我想。

or 2008, I think.

好的。

Okay.

当整个事情兴起的时候，那还挺有趣的。

When that whole thing was ramping up, which was pretty funny.

是的。

Yeah.

在那之前，我几乎把所有那些书都从Borders买回来了，就想看看专家们是怎么说的。

And I think I bought all of those at Borders before then just to see what the experts were saying.

几年前，当我整理书架时，看到了这些关于2012年的书，我想：我该怎么处理它们？

And a few years ago when I was cleaning out my bookshelves, I saw these books on 2012 and I thought, What do I do with this?

是的。

Yeah.

那可是一整件事。

That was a whole thing.

我以后得做一期关于这个的节目。

I'll have to do an episode on that at some point.

讽刺的是，这跟我们的主题有关，因为2012年的说法部分源于玛雅占星术，而它又部分基于金星逆行周期和金星凌日现象——2012年金星曾从太阳表面经过，这在他们的历法中是最后一次记录。

Ironically, that ties into our topic because the 2012 thing supposedly driving partially from Mayan astrology was partially based on the Venus retrograde cycle and the Venus transit where it went across the face of the Sun in 2012, and that was one of the last ones they recorded in their calendar

嗯。

Mhmm.

不知为什么。

For whatever reason.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

谁知道为什么那是最后一次呢？因为金星凌日大约每125年发生一次，成对出现，每对之间相隔8年。

And who knows why that was the last one because they do happen every one hundred and twenty five years or so in pairs of eight years, separated by eight years.

但我之前在想，也许是因为那是千禧年的最后一次，但实际上它是新千年的第一次。

But I was thinking maybe it was because that was the last one of of the millennium, but it was actually the first one of the new millennium.

但正如我昨天所说，我对日历数字2012年的具体日期并不完全认同。

But as I said yesterday, I don't quite agree totally on the dates of our calendar numbers, 2012.

我不清楚这个日期是从哪里开始算的。

I don't know where that is starting from.

尽管当玛雅人记录这些时，我认为他们用的已经是和我们今天相同的日历系统。

Although when the Mayan wrote that, they were already on the same calendar, I believe, that we're using today.

好吧。

Okay.

我不确定他们为什么选了这一个，因为几千年来金星凌日一直在双子座和射手座之间交替出现，更早之前还出现在其他星座。

Not sure why they chose that one because there have been Venus transits alternating between Gemini and Sagittarius for over a thousand years and in other signs before that.

当然。

Sure.

好的。

Okay.

但回到正题，别跑太远，你这个观点的切入点之一，是金星作为晨星和作为昏星之间的区别。

But to get back to it, not to get too far off track, but part of your access point for this was the distinction between Venus as a morning star and Venus as an evening star.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Mhmm.

所以也许我们可以先定义一下，用图表来展示一下天文意义上的这种情况。

So maybe we could define that first, looks like in a chart or what that looks like in astronomical terms.

好的。

Okay.

所以在星盘中，如果金星在黄道位置上位于太阳之前，是的。

So in a chart, if you have Venus ahead of your Sun in a zodiacal position ahead of the Sun Mhmm.

那就是傍晚星，就像今天的星盘。

It's an evening star, like the chart for today.

我们现在知道金星是傍晚星。

We know it's an evening star right now.

我们在夜晚看到它非常明亮地闪耀。

We're seeing it at night shining very brightly.

好的。

Okay.

所以如果你看一下今天的星盘

So if you look at today's chart

所以丹佛现在是凌晨4点26分，还不到日落时间。

So it's 04:26 here in Denver, so it's a little bit before sunset.

我们把它调到日落时分吧。

Let's move it to about sunset.

好的。

Okay.

所以今天太阳位于双鱼座25度，我们将天底移到双鱼座25度。

So here is the Sun is at 25 degrees of Pisces today, so we'll move the Descendant to 25 Pisces.

这正好是日落时刻。

So that's right at sunset.

太阳到达天底。

The Sun hits the Descendant.

那就是太阳落到地球下方，夜晚来临的时候。

That's when the Sun sets underneath the Earth and it becomes night.

因此，你可以看到上方金星在夜空中明亮地闪耀。

And so, you can see above that is Venus in the night sky shining pretty brightly.

对。

Right.

如果我们能用肉眼看到天王星，就会发现它们俩一直靠得很近。

And if we could see Uranus with the naked eye, you would see that the two of them have been pretty close.

嗯。

Mhmm.

好的。

Okay.

所以人们需要知道，当太阳落下、到达天顶并移至西方地平线以下时，那一刻就从白天变成了夜晚。

So people just need to know that when the Sun sets when it hits the Descendant and it moves underneath the western horizon, at that point it goes from daytime.

当外面一片明亮时，就进入了夜晚。

When it's all bright out, it goes to nighttime.

一旦进入夜晚，星星就会出现，你又能看到夜空中的星星了。

And as soon as it becomes nighttime, the stars come out and you start to be able to see the stars in the night sky again.

目前在这个时候，你可以看到金星出现在金牛座上方，像一颗明亮的白色闪烁星星，随后几小时后会在下降点落下。

And one of the things that you can see at this time currently is Venus will appear as a bright sort of white twinkling star up there at of Taurus before eventually it sets at the Descendant just a few hours later.

因为金星在日落后不久就变得可见，所以我们称它为昏星。

So because Venus becomes visible at that point shortly after sunset, we call it an evening star.

我们说它目前处于昏星阶段，因为它基本上在日落后傍晚时分出现。

We say that it's currently in its evening star phase because it comes out basically in the evening after sunset.

嗯。

Mhmm.

好的。

Okay.

古代人就是这么称呼它的。

And the ancients called it that.

他们不称它为行星，而称它为星星。

They didn't call it a planet, they called it a star.

我的意思是，从技术上讲她并不是一颗星星，但既然我做了这么多关于金星之星的研究，你可以称她为星星，因为她确实与地球有着某种轨道模式，形成了美丽的五角星图案。

I mean, she technically is not a star, but now that I've done all this research on the Venus Star, you could call her a star because she does kind of have that orbital pattern with Earth where she makes that beautiful pentagram.

嗯。

Mhmm.

当然。

Sure.

我们稍后会深入讨论这个。

And we'll get into that later.

不过，相反的是，今年晚些时候，当金星逆行后，它会切换到另一侧，成为晨星。

So the opposite, though, is that later this year after she goes retrograde, she will switch sides and become a morning star.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

如果你想在六月左右做一张星盘，那么6月3日实际上是卡兹米日，也就是恒星点日期。

If you wanna do a chart for about June, Well, June 3 is actually the kazimi, the Star Point date.

但如果你要画大约6月10日的星盘

But if you do a chart for about, let's say, June 10

好的。

Okay.

我现在的做法是把星盘往后推。

So what I'm doing is I'm moving the chart forward.

我们现在已进入五月。

We're into May now.

而接下来的情况是，金星会逐渐减速，并在5月12日或13日左右于双子座21度处逆行停滞。

And what happens is that Venus is gonna slow down and it's gonna station retrograde around May 12, May 13 at 21 Gemini.

是的。

Yeah.

然后它会开始在黄道十二宫的星座和度数中向后运行，直到太阳最终追上金星，两者在6月3日左右于双子座13度处合相。

And then it's gonna start moving backwards in the signs of the zodiac and the degrees of the zodiac until eventually the Sun catches up with Venus and the two can join each other at 13 degrees of Gemini around June 3.

是的。

Yeah.

这很重要，因为对你来说，金星逆行周期中的关键点是与太阳的合相。

So that's important because for you, a critical point in the Venus retrograde cycle is the conjunction with the Sun.

对。

Right.

这就是你所说的金星卡兹米星。

And that's what you call the Venus kazimi Star

点或者卡兹米，因为那是她从晨星变为昏星，或从昏星变为晨星的时刻。

Point or kazimi because that's the moment she switches from being a morning star to an evening star or an evening star to a morning star.

就在她亲吻太阳的那一刻，她已经移动到太阳的另一侧了。

The minute she kisses the Sun, she's moving on the other side of the Sun now.

嗯。

Mhmm.

好的。

Okay.

所以在这个情况下，当金星逆行时，她是从昏星转变为晨星。

So in this instance, when she's retrograde, she's going from being an evening star to being a morning star.

对。

Right.

好的。

Okay.

所以在这之后，如果我们继续向前看，金星仍然处于逆行状态，并会持续逆行一段时间，直到最终在6月24日或25日左右，缓慢下来并在双子座五度处顺行。

So then after that point, if we keep moving forward, Venus is still retrograde and stays retrograde for longer until eventually it slows down again and it stations direct at about five degrees of Gemini around June 24, June 25.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以此时，如果我们再看日落时分，金星将不会

So at this point, if we, again, take it to sunset, Venus will not

可见。

Not be visible.

她位于地平线以下。

She's under the horizon.

对。

Right.

所以在这里我们

So here we

但如果你看日出时，你就能在天空中看到她。

But if see you take it to sunrise, that's where you'll see her in the sky.

对吧？

Right?

好的。

Okay.

所以大约在6月25日，晚上8点左右，在丹佛这里是日落时间。

So here's sunset around June 25 around 8PM here in Denver.

嗯。

Mhmm.

太阳在天底到达约四度时落下。

The sun sets when the Descendant hits about four degrees.

当天底到达巨蟹座四度时，太阳就移至地平线以下。

When the Descendant hits four degrees of Cancer, the sun moves under the horizon.