占星学中行星神话的起源

当巴比伦人谈论他们的太阳神沙玛什的本性时，从希腊的角度来看，并不是在寻找他们的神祇中哪一个最像太阳。

And when the Babylonians talk about the nature of their sun god Shamash, it from the Greek standpoint, it isn't looking around to see which of their deities is most like the sun.

太阳就是太阳。

The sun is the sun.

太阳的名字是赫利俄斯和阿波罗，因此这种关联更加清晰直接。

The sun name was Helios and Apollo so that there is a much more clear and direct association.

我们将要探讨的是，巴比伦人赋予沙玛什的属性和描述，是否与希腊神话中赫利俄斯和阿波罗这两位太阳神的特征相吻合？

What we are going to explore is did the attributes and description that the Babylonians gave to Shamash, do they correspond to the Greek gods of the son of Helios and Apollo?

关于沙玛什，他被描绘在两座山之间。

So with, Shamash, he was was portrayed between two mountains.

每天早晨，他会把蝎子放入东方之山的门中，打开大门，然后驾着战车升上天空。

And he would in the morning, put his the scorpion in, would open the gate of the mountain of the East, and he would emerge and go across the sky in his chariot.

到了傍晚，他则通过西方之山的门户下降，进入地下的旅程。

And then by the evening, descend, through the gate in the Western Mountain and go into his subterranean course.

他被表现为从肩膀和头部放射出光芒。

And he was shown as rays emanating from his shoulders and from his head.

我们在希腊太阳神赫利俄斯的描绘中也看到了类似的景象，他身上同样有光芒射出。

And we see the parallel of this in the portrayals of Helios, the Greek sun god, who likewise had the rays coming out of him.

每天早晨，他驾驶着由马匹拉动的太阳战车穿越天空，然后下降。

And each morning, he drove the chariot of the sun pulled by these horses across the sky and then descended.

因此，首先，他们都将自己的太阳神以相同的图像表现出来，这当然非常直观，只要你观察太阳在天空中的运行轨迹就能明白。

So that, first of all, they both visualize their sun god in the same iconography, which, of course, is, like, quite obvious if you just look at the sun's motion through the skies.

作为太阳神，沙玛什的特质是活力与勇气，某种程度上，我们从占星学角度将这些特质与我们的意志、存在的力量联系起来。

The Shamash as a sun god, his qualities were of vigor and courage, which in some ways we associate that astrologically with our our will, the force of our being.

而太阳因为能俯瞰天空的最高点，所以能看见一切正在发生的事情，知晓一切。

And that the sun, because he could see everything transversing the highest point of the sky, he could see everything that was going on, and he knew what was going on.

他既是人类的保护者，也是审判者，因为他能看见人们所犯的过错，同时也是一位占卜之神。

He was both a protector of people and a judge because he could see what the wrongdoings that people were performing, but also a god of divination.

因此，在巴比伦神话中，沙玛什通过其祭司阶层‘巴鲁’特别受到尊崇，他们以肝卜等方式揭示未来的秘密，而沙玛什所关联的城市也与此密切相关。

And so the Shamash and Babylonian mythology through his race called the Baru was especially honored for revealing the secrets of the future and particularly through liver divination and the city that he was connected with.

我们来看一下。

Let's see.

在西帕尔，我尤其将其视为占卜的中心。

I had in Sippar was especially a a center of divination.

所以当你转向希腊神话时，赫利俄斯——早期泰坦神系中的太阳神——后来与奥林匹斯神阿波罗融合了。

So when you go to the Greek mythology, Helios, who is the sun god in the earlier pantheon of the titans, then became merged with the Olympian god Apollo.

阿波罗是占卜之神，他的主要圣地在德尔斐，那里是希腊人长达千年的主要神谕之地。

And Apollo was the god of divination, and his major site was at Delphi, the main oracle side of the Greeks for a thousand years.

因此，我们看到这两位神都与占卜之神相关联。

And so we have both gods associated with gods of divination.

太阳神沙马什也与正义相连。

And the sun god Shamash was also connected with Justice.

他就是那个，你知道的，执行审判的人。

He was the one who, you know, met it out judge judgment.

在希腊神话中，阿波罗出现在俄瑞斯忒斯的审判中，俄瑞斯忒斯杀了他母亲，因为她杀了他父亲，而他父亲又杀了他们的女儿，等等。

And in Greek myths, Apollo shows up in the trial of Orestes who killed his mother because she killed his father, who killed their daughter, etcetera.

而俄瑞斯忒斯则逃亡，被复仇女神追捕，最终扑倒在德尔斐阿波罗的祭坛前，祈求怜悯。

But and Orestes, like, fled the Furies who were hounding him and threw himself from mercy upon the altar of Apollo at Delphi.

然后阿波罗说，嘿。

And then Apollo said, hey.

我们需要开一个审判会，由你接受审判，我会担任你的律师，为你辩护。

We have to have a trial where you're going to be judged, and I'm going to be your lawyer and present your defense.

因此，作为正义之神的特质，巴比伦神沙马什和希腊神阿波罗都具备，同时他们也都是占卜之神的主要神祇。

And so this quality of being a god of justice was shared by both the Babylonian god Shamash and the Greek god Apollo as well as the main qualities of divine being the god of divination.

这挺好的，真的很不错。

That's pretty that's pretty good.

这两者之间的对应关系相当显著，也很有意思。

That's pretty striking, pretty nice correspondence then in terms of those two cultures.

嗯。

Mhmm.

至于后来的占星传统，我们关于行星含义的主要资料来源，最完整的记载来自公元二世纪的占星家瓦伦斯。

So and then in terms of the actual astrological tradition later, our primary source our our best source for the significations or the meanings of the planets that's all in one place is the second century astrologer Vadius Valens.

他的第一章就是一份长长的行星含义清单，瓦伦斯列出的一些象征意义，实际上与这些神祇相关。

And he his very first chapter is a long list of the meaning of the planets, and Valens lists some significations that are actually relevant in terms of those gods.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yes.

而且，你知道，是的。

And, you know, and yes.

它是心灵之光。

It's the light of the mind.

它是灵魂感知的器官。

It's the organ of the perception of the soul.

他那里提到了审判和官职的冠冕。

He has judgment in there and crowns of office.

所以如果你愿意，可以在图中展示这段文字并读出其中的一些内容。

So you could just show that passage in the diagram if you want and read out, some of those.

但这种特质，太阳神不仅是太阳之光，更是光通过太阳所展现的力量。

But this quality of and the sun god was not only, like, the light of the sun, but the power of light moving through the sun.

好的。

Okay.

所以在你所选出的象征意义中，你挑出了一些，因为它们原本是一整段内容。

So in the significations you have, you've picked out some because it's like a larger paragraph.

比如这里是从莱利的译本中摘录的关于太阳的完整段落。

Like here's is from Riley's translation, the full paragraph on the Sun.

但你特别挑选出来重点讨论的是瓦伦斯所说的：太阳在占星学中象征心灵之光、灵魂感知的器官、王权职位、声望显赫之人、判断力、王冠、大众领导力、父亲以及命运的巅峰。

But in the ones you've picked out to focus on are that Valens says that the Sun in astrology signifies the light of the mind, organ of perception of the soul, kingly office, persons of high repute, judgment, crowns of office, popular leadership, father, and height of fortune.

是的。

Yeah.

那么关于这一点，还有其他要补充的吗？

So were there any other points about that?

我的意思是，判断力反复出现，这挺有意思的。

I mean, it's interesting judgment coming up as like a recurring thing with with these.

当然。

Definitely.

我认为，心灵之光和感知器官与光本身的特质有关，这一点可以进一步展开。

And I think, like, the light of the mind and the organ of perception having to do with the qualities of light itself is something that one could expand.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

For sure.

我的意思是，在更长的段落里，还有其他一些内容，比如神的旨意。

I mean, there's other just in the larger paragraph, there's other ones like the ordinance of the gods.

作为其中之一

As one

嗯。

Mhmm.

判断。

Judgment.

这是瓦伦斯对所有象征意义的完整列表。

This is like Valens' full list of of significations.

声誉、父亲、主人、友谊、显赫人物、荣誉、高级祭司职位。

Reputation, father, master, friendship, notable personages, honors, high priesthoods.

是的。

Yeah.

但至少

So but at least

在更早且理性的光中。

in prior and intellectual light.

我的意思是

I mean

总之。

anyway.

是的。

Yeah.

但就我们的目的而言，关键点在于，你知道，如果菲利普选得好的话，我想菲利普其实并没有，因为毕竟他们早就给太阳起了名字。

So but the but for our purposes, the main point is just in terms of, you know, if Philip is picking well, I guess Philip's not really because it's like they already had a name for the sun.

所以这些名称争议较少，因为希腊人和美索不达米亚人早就给它们命名了。

So these are the ones that are gonna be less controversial just because they're the Greeks and the Mesopotamians already had names.

对。

Right.

因为它们是肉眼可见的行星，每天白天和黑夜都影响着我们，与我们的生活有直接关联。

Because they're the visible planets that are visible and that impact our every day every day and every night that we have direct correlations with.

明白了。

Got it.

好的。

Okay.

对。

Right.

而像其他行星之类的，如果你不了解，就很难分辨它们和天空中的其他星星有什么不同。

Whereas the planets or something like, you wouldn't necessarily know or distinguish them from the rest of the sky unless you knew, you know, you're looking.

是的。

Yeah.

这说得通。

That makes sense.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

我原本以为占卜在某个时候也与太阳失衡有关。

And I thought I thought divination was also connected at one point with the sun imbalance.

我找不到我的翻译了，不过我们回头再谈这个。

I'm having trouble finding my translation, but we'll come back to that.

我们继续讲月亮吧？

Shall we move on to the moon?

好的。

Yes.

好的。

Okay.

哦，我不确定这是否相关，但我刚在我的书里看到这一点。

Oh, I do I don't know whether this is relevant or not, but I just saw it in my book.

赫利俄斯在科斯岛上有崇拜仪式，而巴罗苏斯正是在那里建立了他的占星学派，此外在罗德岛上，世界七大奇迹之一的罗德岛巨像就是赫利俄斯的雕像。

And that Helios had cults on the island of Kos, which is where Barossus set up his school of astrology, and on the island of Rhodes that one of the seven wonders of the world was this big Colossus Of Rhodes, which was Helios.

罗德岛我认为是巴比伦占星术传入希腊大陆的重要中转地，因为它正好位于腓尼基海岸和土耳其海岸之间。

And Rhodes was, I believe, one of the places of the transmission of the Babylonian astrology to the Greece Mainland seen as it sits right between the coast of Phoenicia and the coast of Turkey.

希腊化时代的天文学中心就在罗德岛上。

And this was the center of Hellenistic astronomy was on the island of Rhodes.

所以我不确定。

And so I don't know.

正如我所说，我不确定这是否是相关性，但既然我们正在研究希腊诸神的特质及其崇拜场所，这既关系到占星术传入希腊的途径，也关系到希腊天文学研究的中心。

As I said, I don't know if this is a correlation, but since we're looking at the qualities of the Greek gods and their cult sites for both reasons of the introduction of astrology to Greece and the center of Greek astronomical studies.

赫利俄斯是太阳神，对应巴比伦的沙马什，正是他主宰着这些岛屿。

Helios is the sun god, is the Babylonian Shamash is the one that presides over those islands.

明白了。

Got it.

好的。

Okay.

我刚查了下我的翻译，果然没错，因为瓦伦斯说了这么一句话。

And I just pulled up my translation, and I was right because it's this one statement that Valens makes.

这是关于与神明互动的内容。

It's dealings with the gods.

有趣的是，他把这一点和判断并列，作为太阳的含义之一。

And it's interesting because he puts that right next to judgment as one of the significations for the sun.

但我加了一个小注释，指出其中一位译者推断，与神明的互动是通过神谕进行的。

But I have a little footnote pointing out that one of the that one of the translators infers that the dealings with the gods occur through oracles.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以我想指出，这一点从美索不达米亚传统，贯穿希腊神话传统，最终成为这部占星文献中的一个具体含义？

So that was one that I wanted to point it out that just runs as a through line from the Mesopotamian tradition through the Greek mythological tradition and then into this astrological text as a specific signification?

是的。

Yes.

好的。

Okay.

好的。

Alright.

那我们继续来看月亮。

So let's move on to the moon.

好的。

Okay.

所以，月亮在巴比伦神话中是男性神祇，而在希腊神话中则是女神塞勒涅（Selene），发音是塞勒涅。

So the moon, there are some differences between the Babylonian moon god that was a masculine or male divinity and the Greek goddess Selene or Selene is it's pronounced.

她还与阿耳忒弥斯和赫卡忒组成三位一体。

And she's also part of a trinity with Artemis and Hecate.

第一个区别在于，巴比伦的月神与希腊的月神在性别上的不同。

So the first difference is the male female association between the Babylonian god of the moon and the Greek god of the moon.

在巴比伦，月亮与太阳和金星并列为三大主要天体神祇，广泛出现在各种图像符号中。

And that the moon along with the sun and Venus were the in Babylonia, the three prominent astral deities that were depicted in all kinds of iconography.

你可以看到太阳带有光芒，月亮呈新月形，金星则以八角星代表。

You see the sun with its rays, the crescent moon, and the eight pointed star Venus.

因此，月亮在神谱中地位相对较高。

So the moon was relatively high up in the pantheon.

月神辛被描绘为乘坐一艘新月形的船——他们称之为‘巴克’（bark）——在夜空中航行。

And the moon god, sin, was depicted in riding in a crescent shaped boat that they called a bark, b a r q u e, across the evening sky.

在月亮每月运行的某个阶段，新月会变成完整的王冠，象征满月。

And at a certain point in its monthly passage, the crescent gave way to a full blown crown that indicated the full moon.

这让我觉得特别有趣的一点是，埃及的众神，尤其是奥西里斯，也被描绘成乘坐这种新月形的船在夜空中航行。

And this is one thing that is aside interesting to me is that the Egyptian gods, particularly Osiris, were likewise depicted depicted on these Christian shaped barks traveling across the night sky.

因此，这里存在埃及与美索不达米亚之间的联系。

So you have an Egyptian Mesopotamian connection there.

也许这是因为月亮的新月形状本身就象征着……

Maybe it's due to the crescent shape of the moon just re representing.

是的。

Yeah.

就像一艘船。

Like a boat.

是的

Yeah.

恩利尔被描绘为一位白发苍苍的智者，有着青金石色的胡须，人们认为他是恶人的敌人。

And Cnidus portrayed as a old wise man with a lapis lazuli beard, and that it was felt that at the he was a enemy of evildoers.

还有传说称，在月食时，他被七位邪恶的恶魔包围。

And there's myths that at the lunar eclipse, was surrounded by seven seven evil demons.

因此，虽然我偏离了希腊神话，但许多关于日月食的神话都涉及恶魔出来吞噬太阳和月亮的情节。

And so we have a lot of the again, I'm veering off the Greek, but a lot of the eclipse mythology that has to do with, like, the demons coming out to eat the sun and moon.

我们可以看到，这种意象和信仰可以追溯到对月神辛的最早期理解。

We see that going, that kind of imagery and belief going back into the earliest level of the understanding of the moon god sin.

现在，他与时间的计量相对应。

Now he corresponds to the measurement of time.

好的。

K.

这很明显。

That is obvious.

月亮的月相循环是一个完美的日历。

The moon's monthly passage is a perfect calendar.

人们还认为他能赐予子嗣，帮助孕妇和分娩的妇女。

And that he was thought to provide offspring or children and was an aid to pregnant and birthing mothers.

这与月神非常相似。

And this is very similar to the moon goddess.

而且，这非常重要，因为月亮的28天周期与女性的月经周期相对应。

And, again, this is, like, fundamental because the twenty eight days of the moon's cycle corresponds to a woman's menstrual cycle.

因此，月亮显然与受孕、养育幼小以及女性的怀孕和分娩过程密切相关，这并不难理解。

And so the moon obviously would be connected to the whole process of conception and being involved in the nurturing of the young and in the pregnancy and labor of women as a So means is our there it isn't much much of a stretch.

是的。

Sure.

因此，像月亮这样重要的象征，代表着成长与丰饶。

And as such, like the great moon so significations of the moon, here's a symbol of growth and abundance.

你可以看到月亮的盈亏变化，从初生开始，月亮变得越来越大。

And you see that in the moon's phases starting off, and the moon gets bigger and bigger.

然后这与你选择时机有关，你希望在上弦月时举行仪式，因为此时与生长过程相关。

And then it has to do with you do elections, and you want an election on the waxing moon where it is connected with the process of, growth.

现在，关于月神辛的一些方面特别吸引我，那就是他有两个主要的崇拜中心。

Now what some pieces of the moon god, Cnid, that are especially fascinating to me have to do that he had two main centers of worship.

一个在乌尔，位于美索不达米亚南部。

One was in Ur, which is in Southern Mesopotamia.

乌尔是迦勒底祭司的中心之一。

And Ur was one of the seats of the Chaldean priests.

他的第二个崇拜地在哈兰，位于美索不达米亚最北部。

And his second place of worship was in Haran, which is in the very very northern part of Mesopotamia.

月神在这两个地方都受到崇拜。

And the moon god was worshiped in both of those sites.

在圣经故事中，亚伯拉罕据说出生在迦勒底的乌尔，之后他前往哈兰，在那里与他的妻子撒拉相遇。

And in the biblical story of Abraham, he is said to have been born in Ur of the Chaldeans, and then he traveled to Haran where he connected with his wife Sarah.

然后他们一起前往迦南，踏上了他们的旅程。

And then they together went to Canaan and went on their journey.

希伯来文本称，是亚伯拉罕将占星术带给了犹太人。

And the Hebrew texts say that it was Abraham who brought the science of astrology to the Jews.

因此，亚伯拉罕被视为传奇奠基人之一，他来自月神之城——迦勒底。

And so Abraham is considered to be one of the legendary founders, and he came from the city of the moon god, which was the Chaldean.

因此，月亮在这一点上变得非常有趣。

So the moon becomes very interesting in that.

许多占星师都了解哈兰的重要性；在希腊化晚期，由于基督教和罗马人的兴起，占星术开始转入地下，而哈兰成为赫尔墨斯传统的据点之一。

And then many astrologers are aware of the importance of Haran, which in the late Hellenistic period when astrology was starting to go underground due to the Christianity and the Romans, Haran became one of the outposts of the Hermetic tradition.

此外，还有许多崇拜星辰的神庙，在占星术于地中海其他地区被禁绝后，这些地方仍长期实践着星象赫尔墨斯宗教。

And then there are all the star worshiping temples where we have the astral Hermetic religion being practiced for many centuries after the astrology had gone underground and closed down in the other part of the Mediterranean.

而在被称为月神之城的哈兰，这种关联依然存在。

And there in Huron, which was called the city of the moon god, they still had that association.

我认为，哈兰是星象魔法与择日占星术完全融合并得以实践的关键地点之一。

In the develop and I feel that Haran was one of the key places where the tradition of astral magic being merged with electional astrology fully was practiced and came together.

我们看到月亮在各种择日工作中都具有重要意义。

And we see the importance of the moon in all kinds of electional work happening.

因此，那里存在着月亮的某种层面。

So there's a level of the moon happening there.

所以我只是想分享一些关于月神的故事，因为这对我们的占星历史大背景非常重要。

So I just wanted to share some of those stories of the moon god because it's so important to our larger context of our astrological history.

但我们之前在普罗克洛斯那一集中也提到过哈兰，因为那些异教哲学家——本质上是新柏拉图主义者——收拾行囊迁往该地区，以躲避迫害或因被流放，同时也将那些异教、柏拉图主义和占星传统带了过去。

But And we talked a little bit about Huron in the Proclus episode as well because of the pagan philosophers who were essentially Neoplatonic philosophers packing up their bags and moving to that area in order to get away from persecution or as a result of being exiled, but as a result of that carrying some of those pagan and Platonic and astrological traditions.

是的。

Yes.

没错。

And right.

不。

No.

据说当学院后来关闭时，辛普利修斯去了那里，柏拉图占星术随之传入哈兰及周边地区，后来与图斯·伊本·库拉的传统融合，传入巴格达，影响了阿拉伯占星术，因此哈兰正好处于这些文化交汇的十字路口。

It said that Simplicis went there when the academy closed down later on, and there was the importation of the platonic astrology went that went into the went into the Haran and the surrounding areas that then became part of, with Tibet bin Kura, the tradition that moved over into Baghdad and influenced Arabic astrology so that there's a direct line of Huron stands at the crossroads of those cultures.

然后后来

And then later

辛普利修斯以及他们这些人，是最后一批融合占星术、甚至在某种程度上实践占星术的新柏拉图主义者。

And and Simplicius Simplicius and them being some of the last of the line of those later Neoplatonists who were all integrating astrology or even practicing astrology to some extent in their practice.

普罗克洛斯无疑是一位占星家，就连波菲利也以某种方式将其融入了自己的体系。

Proclus was for sure an astrologer, but then even Porphyry was incorporating it to some extent.

扬布利柯提到了这一点。

Iamblichus mentions it.

令人惊讶的是，许多后期的新柏拉图主义者都以某种方式讨论和涉及占星术。

It's striking how many of the later Neoplatonists were talking about and dealing with astrology to some extent.

是的。

Yes.

这可以说是柏拉图传统的尾声。

So it's like the very tail end of the Platonic tradition.

某种程度上，事情仿佛回到了原点——与柏拉图时代及早期占星术雏形开始进入人们意识时相比，形成了一个循环。

It's like things sort of come full circle in a way compared to where they started at the beginning of the Platonic tradition with Plato and the early inklings of astrology or something like it potentially starting to come into consciousness.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我感到非常着迷，因为巴比伦的月神辛，其视野在整段历史中占据了如此重要的位置。

And I just found it fascinating that it was the Babylonian moon god, Cn, whose sight held such an important piece of all of that history.

当然。

For sure.

是的。

Yeah.

从最开始一直到最终。

And very beginning all the way through to the very end.

因为辛是万神殿中最古老的神祇之一。

Because sin was one of the oldest of the gods of the pantheon.

是的。

Yeah.

而且辛在美索不达米亚尤其重要，不仅与时间的计量相关，也与智慧相关。

And it was especially associated with it was like, sin was the most the most important god in Mesopotamia and was also associated with the measurement of time as well as with wisdom.

与智慧以及生育相关。

With wisdom and with a birth childbirth.

因此，我们可以看到，生育这一主题确实延续到了希腊月神身上。

And so we see that we definitely see the theme of childbirth spill over into the goddesses of the Greek goddesses of the moon.

希腊的月神是一个三重神格：新月的阿尔忒弥斯、满月的塞勒涅，以及残月的赫卡忒。

And Greek moon goddesses are a trinity of Artemis of the new moon, Selene or Selene of the full moon, and Hecate of the waning dark moon.

她们将女性的三个阶段——少女、母亲与老妇——与月亮的三个阶段和女性生命的三个阶段相对应。

And portraying women in their three phases as maiden mother and crone or as maidens and then, the three phases of the moon and the three stages of a woman's life.

正如我所说，这正是月神与月女神之间最显著的差异所在，但两者都掌管着历法与生育周期。

So as I said, this is where there's but in some ways, the greatest difference between the moon god and the moon goddesses, but they both presided over the same themes of the calendar and of childbirthing cycles.

据说这位女神的一个角色是助产士，负责迎接新生命的到来；她和阿波罗是双胞胎，而阿波罗是太阳神。

And the artist was said to have, you know, been one of her roles was as a midwife, bringing children in, that she and Apollo were twins and Apollo, the sun god.

她先出生，轻松无碍，随后帮助母亲接生了阿波罗。

And she was born first easily, and then she assisted her mother's labor with the birth of Apollo.

好的。

Okay.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以，这在神话传统中似乎存在一种有趣的断裂：美索不达米亚传统中是男性神祇，而希腊传统中则全是与月亮相关的女性神祇。

So this is an interesting though sort of discontinuity at least between the myths of the traditions where we have like a male god in the Mesopotamian tradition, but we have all female gods associated with the moon in in the Greek tradition.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但无论如何，它们都掌管着历法、怀孕和生育的相同象征意义。

But nevertheless, they preside over the same significations of the calendar and pregnancy and childbirth.

当然。

Sure.

是的。

Yeah.

万物的生长。

The growth of all things.

是的。

Yeah.

这说得通。

That makes sense.

这很有趣，因为这种设定所确立的先例，至今两千年后依然有效——无论占星师在多大程度上为行星赋予性别，他们仍倾向于将月亮与女性、母亲等联系起来，而美索不达米亚传统中月亮却常与男性神祇相关。这些早期的选择，是否在某种程度上影响了后来的发展方向，甚至让某些趋势走向了不同的路径？

It's just interesting in terms of then that setting the precedent that still held, you know, now two thousand years later in terms of the tendency to whatever extent astrologers engender or try to associate genders with planets still of associating the moon with women or the mother or what have you versus to whatever extent it was like a male deity in the Mesopotamian tradition, that sometimes these choices that were made at that point impact things or or or can send things in slightly different directions?

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得是的。

I I think so.

而且希腊人并没有凭空创造一位新的月亮女神。

And it wasn't as if the Greeks, like, made up a new moon goddess.

他们早已拥有自己的月亮女神，这在接触美索不达米亚占星术之前，甚至在试图将两者对应起来之前，就已经存在很久了。

They this was their goddess of the moon that they had preexisted for a long time before their exposure to Mesopotamian astrology and before perhaps trying to correlate it.

这些神祇本就属于希腊万神殿中固有的部分。

These were the deities that were already in the Greek pantheon.

明白了。

Got it.

那么，我们是否可以这么说：显然，这两种文化之间存在共性，但希腊人将月亮视为更偏向女性的神祇而非男性神祇，这种对月亮的女性化处理，是否在某种程度上影响了西方占星传统，使得神话因素在塑造占星解读时发挥了作用？

So can we say then Obviously, we have There's commonalities between those two cultures, but then can we say then to the extent that the Greeks treated the moon more as a feminine deity rather than a masculine one that that feminization of the Moon then has impacted the Western astrological tradition in terms of our interpretation of it to whatever extent at least the mythology or what have you has played a role in influencing the astrological tradition?

是的。

Yes.

我认为，月亮的28天周期与女性的生理周期直接对应，这是无可否认的。

And I think that it's like it's undeniable that the twenty eight days of the moon cycle corresponds directly to the physiology women's reproductive physiology.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，当然还有其他因素。

I mean, there's definitely other

对。

Right.

它决定了受孕、怀孕和分娩。

It's the the determinant in conception and pregnancy and labor.

是的。

Yeah.

当然，还有其他象征性、实证性或概念性的理由，可以论证月亮与女性之间的联系，而你提到的这个理由非常直接明了。

There's definitely other symbolic and empirical or conceptual reasons why we could make arguments for why the Moon's connected with women, and, like, that's a really good one that's, you know, pretty straightforward in terms of that.

对。

Right.

所以，正如我所说，是的，这似乎是关联性最弱的地方，仅仅因为一个是男性，一个是女性。

So as I said, yeah, that that this is where there seems to be the I guess we're going to say the least correlation, but simply because one is a male and the other is a female.

但它们并非毫无关联，因为两者都掌管着与月亮本身的天文学以及人体生理相关的相同象征意义。

But they're not unconnected in that they both presided over the same significations that have to do with the astronomy of the moon herself and the physiology of human bodies.

是的。

Yeah.

这一点确实形成了很好的延续性。

That's a good continuity there.

还值得一提的是，尽管我们主要不讨论这一点，但在古埃及文化中，智慧之神托特最初也与月亮有关。

Also worth mentioning here, even though we're not dealing with it for the most part, but in the earlier Egyptian culture, Thoth, the god of wisdom, was originally associated with the moon as well.

嗯。

Mhmm.

他还与日历有关。

And he was connected with the calendar.

这涉及电影、时间以及与时间的关系。

It's a movie, time, and being With time.

日历。

Calendar.

好的。

Okay.

不错。

Cool.

好吧。

Alright.

所以，我们还要提一下一些关于平衡的象征意义。

So and then there's a few significations and balance that we're gonna mention.

好的。

Okay.

所以你在书中强调的含义中，相位指出月亮是太阳光的反射，代表生命、身体、母亲、受孕、女王、游荡、合法婚姻、家务、财产、人群聚集、家庭、船只、收入和支出。

So the significations you highlight in your book is valence says that the moon is the reflection of solar light, and it represents life, the body, mother, conception, queen, wanderings, legal marriage, housekeeping, property, gathering of crowds, home, ships, receipts, and expenditures.

嗯。

Mhmm.

好的。

Alright.

听起来不错。

Sounds good.

关于月亮，还有其他要提到的吗？

Anything else to mention about the moon?

目前没有。

Not at the moment.

我觉得我们还要继续讲五个。

I think we've got five more to get on with.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

好吧。

Alright.

就是这样。

There's that.

好吧。

Alright.

那么我们继续下一个。

So moving on to the next one.

我们最初在讨论和争论，是应该按照那些与主题关联最紧密的依次进行，还是从关联最弱的开始，或者干脆按照太阳、月亮、水星、金星这样的标准顺序来。

Originally, we were sort of talking about and debating whether we should go through from, like, the ones that match up the the most impressively to the ones that are, like, least connected or if we should just go through a a more standard order of like Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus.

我们最终决定按这个顺序进行，只是为了能够展示你书中提供的这种视觉呈现。

And we decided to go through in this order just for the sake of being able to show this visual representation that you have from your book.

好的。

Alright.

那我们继续说水星。

So let's move on to Mercury.

水星是我觉得关联最明显、最有说服力的一个。

And Mercury is one of the ones where the connection I think is the most obvious and most compelling, I think.

对吧？

Right?

没错。

Right.

我的意思是，从这一点开始，它们的关联都会非常强。

I mean, we'll find that they all are very strong from this point on.

在巴比伦神话中，水星是马尔杜克的儿子，而马尔杜克相当于木星，我们稍后会讲到。

So Mercury in the Babylonian mythology was the son of Marduk, and Marduk was equivalent to Jupiter, which we'll get to.

马尔杜克是众神之王，纳布是他的儿子，常被称为王储。

And Marduk was the king of the gods, and Nabu was his son and is often described as the crown prince.

这赋予了巴比伦神纳布作为众神之首继承人的部分地位。

And that gave the Babylonian god Nabu part of his status of being the crown prince of the leader of all the gods.

他的名字意味着‘宣告者’，而我们的神墨丘利被称为沟通之神。

And that he his name, meant the announcer, and our god Mercury is known as the god of communications.

纳布是书吏之神。

Nabu was the god of scribes.

据说他发明了文字，并与识字能力、阅读和书写相关联，因此也与通过掌握知识而获得的智慧相连。

Writing was said to have invented writing itself and was associated with literacy, the ability to read and write, and hence with wisdom through having access to that knowledge.

同样地，墨丘利也被视为学习、教育和识字之神。

And Mercury, likewise, is known as the god of learning, of education, of literacy.

关于巴比伦神纳布的一个重要之处是，当他的父亲马尔杜克成为众神之王时，他获得了决定人类命运的权力。

And one of the important things about the Babylonian god Nabu is that when his father, Marduk, became king of the gods, he took on the power of determining the fates or the destinies of men.

正是纳布在命运石板上铭刻了每个人的命运。

And it was Nabu who inscribed or wrote down individual destinies upon the tablets of fate.

因此，他也拥有这一非凡的地位。

And so he also has that incredible status.

而希腊神赫尔墨斯，正如我之前所说，与纳布有关，同样是学习与智慧之神。

And the Greek god Hermes, which was who is connected to Nabu, Likewise, as I said before, was the god of learning and wisdom.

纳布不仅被说成记录命运，还拥有增加或减少人寿命的能力。

And Nabu, they said not only, like, wrote down the fates, but he had the power of being able to increase or decrease the days of a person's life.

因此，他也分有了父亲马尔杜克决定命运的权力。

And so he had some share of his father, Marduk's, power of determining those destinies.

这让我觉得有点意思。

So that be that became a little bit interesting to me.

现在最让我兴奋的发现是，纳布的崇拜中心在博尔西帕。

Now the one part that was, like, most exciting to discover was that Nabu's site of worship was in Borsippa.

我不知道。

And I don't know.

我之前发给你过巴比伦城市的地图。

I'd sent you the map of the Babylonian cities.

我们现在不需要展示它。

We don't need to show it now.

但巴比伦塔据说就建在博尔西帕，哦，天哪。

But Borsippa is where later the Tower Of Babel was said to have been erected in the Oh, wow.

圣经文献中提到。

Biblical literature.

巴别塔的故事讲的是，所有人都说着不同的语言。

And the Tower Of Babel was, like, all of these people speaking all of these different languages.

当然，纳布或水星是言语、语言和识字之神。

And, of course, Nabu slash Mercury is the god of speech and of language and literacy.

博尔西帕后来也成为巴比伦主要的阶梯式神庙之一，这种建筑是巴比伦特有的金字塔形宏伟结构。

And that Borsippa also became the site of one of the main ziggurats, which are these pyramid shaped monumental structures in Babylonia.

纳布在崇拜城市博尔西帕的阶梯式神庙有七层，象征七颗行星，整座建筑都覆盖着青金石——一种闪耀的蓝色石材。

And Nabu's ziggurat in his cult city of Borsippa had seven levels representing the seven planets, and that it was all encased in lapis lazuli, shining blue stone.

它高达约70米，真的非常雄伟。

It went, like, what was it, like, 70 meters high, which is, like, really tall.

人们认为，阶梯式神庙的顶端是天文观测台。

And it was felt that at the very top of the ziggurats were astronomical observatories.

这就是占星祭司们进行天体观测、与神灵沟通的地方。

And this is where the astrologer priests went to do their celestial observations of communing with the gods.

因此，这些祭坛中最大最宏伟的是纳布的祭坛。

And so the biggest and grandest of these was that of Nabu.

在希腊神话中，水星与数学、天文学相关，并被认为是占星术的发明者之一。

And in the Greek mythology, Mercury is connected with math, with astronomy, and being one of the so called inventors of astrology.

当然，作为赫尔墨斯，他进入埃及文化后演变为赫尔墨斯·特里斯墨吉斯忒斯，即赫尔墨斯与托特的融合体，赫尔墨斯由此成为希腊化时代占星术、炼金术和魔法的源头。

And certainly as Hermes, like, then goes over into the Egyptian culture of Hermes Trus and Gestus, which is the amalgamation of Hermes and Thoth, you have Hermes as the fountainhead of Hellenistic astrology, alchemy, and magic.

因此，我们在这里看到纳布、赫尔墨斯、赫尔墨斯·特里斯墨吉斯忒斯和水星之间的一种延续性，它们都与语言学习、天文学和占星术相关联。

So we have a continuity here between all three cultures of Nabu, Hermes, Hermes Trismegistus, Mercury is being connected with language learning, astronomy, and astrology.

是的。

Yeah.

这非常一致，这个联系实在太棒了。

That's really consistent, and that's a really great connection there.

所以在瓦伦斯的著作中，你提到的一些水星象征意义包括：文字、儿童教育、商业、辩论、言语、兄弟、青年、盗窃、赐予智慧与实用知识、占卜者、解梦者、律师、演说家、哲学家、神庙建造者，以及探索天空的人。

So in in Valens, some of the significations you have picked out are that Mercury signifies letters, education of children, commerce, disputation, speech, brothers, youth, theft, bestower of intellectual and practical wisdom, augurs, interpreter of dreams, lawyers, orators, philosophers, temple builders, and searchers of the sky.

对。

Right.

在希腊化文献中，水星尤其象征占星师。

In the Hellenistic literature, Mercury particularly is the one signifying astrologers.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Right.

有趣的是，水星还带有某些骗子类型的象征意义，这相当有意思。

It's funny that you have some of the the trickster type significations as well come up with Mercury, which is kind of interesting.

我还想到赫耳墨斯与里拉琴的故事，以及他倒着走以掩盖足迹，这似乎暗示了水星经常逆行的天文现象。

And I I also thought about, like, the story of Hermes and the lyre and and walking backwards to cover his tracks because it almost seems like a sort of astronomical implication there in terms of Mercury frequently turning retrograde.

对。

Right.

据说他一出生，就在黎明时分，到了中午就离开了摇篮，去捉弄他的兄弟阿波罗。

It was it's they said that after he was born like, he was born at dawn, and then by midday, he was up and out of his cradle and decided to play a trick on his brother Apollo.

太阳神去偷了他的牛。

The sun god went and stole his cattle.

为了伪装，他用网状的芦苇做了鞋子穿上，然后倒着走。

And then to, disguise it, he made these, shoes out of webbed reeds or whatever and put them on and walked backwards.

所以，如果你试图追踪他的足迹，它们会朝相反的方向延伸，这完全就是逆行运动的体现。

So if, like, you're trying to track his tracks, they're going the opposite direction, which is a whole thing of retrograde motion.

到了傍晚，他又回到了摇篮里。

And that by, evening, he was back in this cradle.

第二天或两天后，阿波罗发现他的牛被偷了。

And then the next day or two, and Apollo discovers his catalys have been stolen.

他说：‘我只知道我刚出生的那个新弟弟，他飞快地跑到墨丘利躺在摇篮里的洞穴。』

Says, all I know is that brand new brother of mine that was just born, and he hightails it over to the cave where Mercury is in his cradle.

墨丘利说：‘哎呀呀，我什么都不知道。』

And Mercury goes, blah blah blah.

我只是个婴儿而已。

I'm just like a baby.

我没干过。

I didn't do it.

于是出现了一个可爱的场景：阿波罗把婴儿赫尔墨斯拖到宙斯面前，两个兄弟像孩子一样争吵，说他偷走了我的玩具。

And so there's a cute scene where Apollo hauls baby Hermes off and brings it to Zeus and its two brothers squabbling like he took away my toys.

宙斯觉得这简直太好笑了，他的小儿子居然有这么大的胆量和活力，居然敢这么做，于是把他抱到腿上。

And, Zeus is just thinks it's the funniest thing, that his younger son has, like, so much, like, spunk that he would do that, and he picks him up on his lap.

他说：好了，孩子们。

He says, okay, boys.

现在要和睦相处。

Now be friends.

赫尔墨斯，你捡了这只乌龟，做成了这件乐器。

And Mercury, like, you picked up this turtle and made this instrument.

把它交给阿波罗，道个歉，做个好兄弟。

Like, give it to Apollo and apologize and be good brothers.

因此，赫尔墨斯和太阳之间的关系如此紧密而明显，每年有三次，它们都在跳着这种舞蹈。

So there's a and because Mercury and the sun, their cycle with one another is so intimately connected and obvious, like, three times a year, they're doing this dance.

在希腊神话中，你可以看到他们之间这种紧密兄弟关系的联系，而水星的逆行运动正是他们故事中的一部分，解释了他们如何走到这一步。

In mythology in the Greek mythology, you see this connection between them as becoming close brothers, and Mercury's backward motion is being part of their story of how they got there.

是的。

Yeah.

我不确定具体日期，也不清楚这个与赫尔墨斯相关的神话有多古老，但这个故事似乎和美索不达米亚的神话类似，其中几乎编码了一种天文周期或神话——毕竟故事涉及太阳神阿波罗和与水星相关的赫尔墨斯。

And it's like I don't know what the date is or how early that myth is, that specific story associated with Hermes is, but it seems like that's a story like the Mesopotamian ones that encodes almost an astronomical cycle or myth in it just because it's interesting that the story involves Apollo, the sun god, and Hermes, which is associated with Mercury.

水星每年大约三次会减速、停滞、逆行，出现在太阳背后，或至少在太阳的光束之下逆行，然后最终再次出现。

That Mercury is constantly just like three times over the course of the year, slowing down stationing retrograde, retrograding behind the sun or retrograding under the beams of the sun at least, and then eventually emerging again.

在希腊占星传统中，‘逆行’这个词如果从字面上理解，就是‘倒着走’的意思。

It's walking backwards, which is literally walking backwards is what retrograde meant in the Greek astrological tradition if you interpret the word literally.

因此，这种关联显得格外紧密且引人入胜。

So there's just something about that that seems pretty connected and compelling.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

水星的运动与这个神话紧密相连。

The the motion of Mercury is so linked with the myth.

正如你所说，这个神话最早版本是什么时候出现的？这是一个值得追踪的问题。

And as you said, yeah, when was that when is the earliest, version of that myth would be, an interesting thing to start tracking down and that one could.

有一本书。

There's a book.

我不太常见到加恩茨（Gantz）写的那本了，g-a-n-t-z。

I don't see it so much in circulation anymore by Gantz, g a n t z.

我认为是蒂莫西·加恩茨，他记录了一些最早的希腊神话及其来源。

I think it's Timothy Gantz, where he records some of the earliest of the Greek myths and their sources.

那将是我要寻找这类证据的一个地方。

And that would be one place I would go hunting for that evidence.

当然。

For sure.

而且，你知道，我们刚才简单提到，很少有古希腊文献将所有这些叙事完整地汇集在一起。

And, you know, we'd I we've spoken just quickly that very few of the ancient Greek sources have all of these narratives altogether in one place.

你会找到不同故事和文学作品的零散片段，比如陶器绘画或诗歌中的内容。

You'll find just fragments of the different stories and different works of, literature on vase paintings or poetry.

但这几乎像是基于一个假设：每个人都熟悉这个故事，你只是从中挑选某些片段，融入你正在创作的戏剧或哲学思想中。

But it's almost as if it's based on an assumption that everyone knows the story, and you're just picking out certain pieces of it to incorporate in a play that you're writing or a philosophic thing that you're developing.

直到公元初期，比如阿波罗多罗斯的《书库》，这些碎片才被整合成我们现存的连贯叙事文本。

And it isn't until the early century CE, like the Library of Apollodorus, that some of these fragments are put together in a continuous narrative of which text that we actually have.

所以，如果你想在最早的文献中寻找整个故事，我意思是，这很困难，因为你不可能找到完整形态的故事，但你可以在不同地方找到它的某些片段。

So you can't like, going to look for that whole story in the earliest literature, I'm saying, is challenging that you would find it as such, but you can find certain pieces of it in various places.

因此，对于想要进行这项研究的人，需要了解这些情况。

And so just for people who wanna do that research to be aware of them.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

这非常重要。

That's really important.

我本来想提一点，我觉得我们现在就应该说出来，免得到最后给忘了。

And some point some point that I meant to make, and I guess we should make it now so it's not lost by the time we get to the end.

但当我们研究这个时，我们其实正在做两件事。

But just we're looking at this and we're trying to do two things.

一方面，我们正在观察菲利普和柏拉图主义者如何将他们选择分配给特定行星的神话，与他们为这些行星所对应的美索不达米亚名称联系起来。

On the one hand, we're seeing how the how well Philip and the Platonist connected the myths that they chose to assign to certain plan the names they chose for certain planets with the Mesopotamian equivalents that they had assigned to their planets.

另一方面，我们也在观察这种联系有时如何延续到占星传统中，但神话并非瓦伦斯在赋予行星意义时唯一考虑的因素。

And then we're seeing how this sometimes carries through into the astrological tradition, but the mythology wasn't the only factor that was being considered for the significations in Valens.

还有许多不同的概念性、天文性和象征性因素也在推动这一过程，因为神话在占星术中使用的前提之一是，它们暗示了一种关于水星作为原型的总体性、近乎超越性的概念，而你可以在不同文化通过其神话，或通过占星术和该行星的表现方式中，看到这一原型的不同元素逐渐显现。

There's a whole variety of different conceptual and astronomical and also just archetypal things that were also motivating this because part of the premise of the myths and the use of mythology and astrology is they hint at an overarching, almost transcendent but not entirely concept of what Mercury represents as an archetype and then that you see different elements of that archetype filtering through in either different cultures through their myths or through the astrology and the way that that planet manifests itself.

但这里还有一个更广泛的观点，我想我们应该点明这一点，以及我们是如何将这些内容联系起来的。

But there's something like broader point there that we're I think we're supposed to be supposed to make about that and how we're connecting some of this.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，我们实际上是在做两件事。

And, I mean, we're doing two things.

我在讲述这两位神祇的神话，只是因为我是个讲故事的人，但我们也正在观察它们之间是否存在关联。

I'm telling the myths of both of the gods and the just because, like, I'm a myth teller, but we're also seeing is there correlation between them.

如果菲利普或 whoever 把巴比伦文化中的这个行星称为纳布，我想知道，有没有哪位神祇和纳布有任何相似之处？

And if Philip or whoever had this planet called Nabu from Babylonian culture, and I'm trying to see, do we have any god who is anything like Nabu?

赫尔墨斯显然是一个明显的对应，因为两者都与写作、识字、教育和沟通有关。

Hermes is an obvious one to land upon with both of their connections having to do with writing literacy education and communication.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

正是这个，有趣的是，柏拉图确实提到了它，因此这可能是柏拉图自己的关联，因为我们不知道他是否从别人那里得知的。

That's the one Interestingly, that's the one that Plato does mention, which therefore could be Plato's own connection because we don't know if he got it from somebody else.

我们没有任何证据表明这一点，或者这是否是柏拉图学园的一项计划，即在他们开始熟悉行星和高级天文学后，为行星挑选神祇的名字并加以分配。

We have no evidence for that or if this was part of a program within the Platonic Academy to pick names of the gods and assign them to planets once they started becoming familiar with the planets and advanced astronomy.

但同时，还有一个更广泛的观点，即柏拉图主义者强烈反对唯名论。

But also, there's some broader point about the Platonists were very much against nominalism.

他们认为词语和意义具有价值，我认为他们在选择用词时非常谨慎。

They thought that words and meanings had value And I think they're very deliberate in their word choices for things.

还有一个相关的旁点，我认为这可能是选择神名的动机之一，除了更早的美索不达米亚传统——当你为某物命名时，这个名字可以代表或唤起多种不同的含义和暗示，因此有时对语言的使用必须非常慎重。

And there's some, like, side point where I think that may have been part of the motivating factor here for picking the names of gods in addition to the earlier Mesopotamian precedent where when you give a name to something, that name can represent or can invoke a wide variety of different meanings and implications so that sometimes it's important to be very deliberate about language.

我觉得这里存在某种特定的、相关的子观点。

And I and I feel like there's something there, some subset some sub point there that's relevant for this.

昨晚我们准备时，我读了柏拉图的《克拉底鲁篇》，那篇文章完全探讨了我们赋予事物的名称，以及这些名称是否恰当，我们是否应该用这些特定的名称来称呼所有这些事物？

When we were preparing for this last night, I ended up reading Plato's dialogue Cradulus, and that was all about the names that we give things and if they're the appropriate should we rightly call all these things by these particular names?

他在这一对话中充分发展了这一观点。

So he totally develops that notion and that particular dialogue.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这一点在这里很重要。

I think that's important here.

好的。

Okay.

关于赫尔墨斯的最后一件事。

Last thing about Hermes.

这不在你的列表里，但在瓦伦斯对水星的完整译文中，有连续三个词我认为对刚才讲到的赫尔墨斯和阿波罗的神话很重要：瓦伦斯说，赫尔墨斯（水星）象征着青春、游戏和盗窃。

This isn't in your list, but in my in the full translation of Valens for Mercury, there's three in a row that I think are important for that myth we just tell told about Hermes and Apollo where Valens says, Hermes, that Mercury signifies youth, play, and theft.

还有兄弟情谊。

As well as brotherhood.

你注意到了吗？

You see that?

你在那里。

You're up there.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

兄弟。

Brothers.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，有时候还有一些其他相关的象征意义，但这也是另一个例子——我认为，这些意义是源自象征层面，比如水星的运动或其他天文现象，还是来自经验性的考量？或者，神话本身在多大程度上影响了瓦伦斯的这种解读？当像瓦伦斯这样的人提到这些时，他们脑海中浮现的是赫尔墨斯作为诡计之神的形象——比如戏弄阿波罗、模仿他的脚步、偷走乌龟之类的故事。

So it's like there's, you know, other significations sometimes that are relevant here, but it that's another one where I think, you know, is that coming from symbolically, like Mercury's movements or other astronomical things or from empirical considerations or, you know, to what extent is the myth itself influencing that interpretation in Valens so that when somebody like Valens mentions that, they have the idea of that myth of, you know, Hermes being such a trickster and, like like, you know, making the leer and, like, tricking Apollo and retracing his steps and stealing, like, the the tortoise or what have you.

那么，对于一个公元二世纪说希腊语的人来说，这些概念和意象在多大程度上是自然被唤起、隐含在其中的？又在多大程度上只是占星学中抽象的象征和概念？

Like, to what extent for a a person who speaks Greek from the second century is this range of things invoked range of ideas invoked and implicit versus to what extent are these just like abstract significations and concepts in astrology?

我认为这里存在某种模糊性，但现实是，很可能两者兼而有之。

And I think there's a ambiguity there, but the reality is it's probably both.

对我来说，这是一个重要的领悟，因为很长一段时间里，我采取了更极端的观点，认为神话根本与之无关。

And I think that for me, that's actually an important realization because for the longest time, I took more of a hardline approach that it's like it's not the mythology at all.

我认为占星学中的象征意义完全源于概念性或天文性的原因，源于那些被象征性解读的基本天文运动。

They're just driving the significations astrologically from conceptual reasons and from astronomical reasons or things that fundamentally go back to astronomical movements that are being interpreted symbolically.

但随着年龄增长，我现在意识到，你无法完全割裂占星术所处的文化背景，以及与这些天体相关的传说、神话和信仰，它们在某种程度上必然影响着其占星解读。

But I realize now as I get older that you can't separate the culture in which the astrology is practiced and the stories and myths and beliefs associated with some of these things from their astrological interpretation to some extent.

我认为这显然是你一直以来所持的立场，贯穿了你的整个研究，你始终在强调和倡导这一点。

And I think that's obviously position you've always had and has run through your work consistently that you've always said and promoted.

没错。

Right.

当你念出瓦伦的象征意义时，我想到一件事，我们现在在二十一世纪对水星的理解只剩下写作和沟通。

And one thing that occurred to me as you were reading out Valens' significations, he has a list of significations, but what we're left with now in the twenty first century with mercury is writing and communication.

对。

Right.

我们已经失去了

We've lost

对。

Right.

这些其他的象征意义中，有些可能确实是瓦伦提出的，但历经两千年依然留存并延续下来的，是回归到纳布和赫尔墨斯的根本特质，即与作为语言的抄写者、书写和沟通相关的主题。

Some of these others may, in fact, have been things that Valens came up with, but what has survived and sustained through the two thousand years is going back to the fundamental qualities of Nabu and Hermes that had to do with these themes of being a scribe of language, of writing, and communicating.

好的。

Okay.

嗯，是的。

Well, yeah.

而且，我一直认为，如果这是根本含义，它也可能从根本上追溯到一个天文点，即太阳是太阳系的中心，代表智慧、知识和理智与心智。

And I mean, if I've always thought if that's the fundamental meaning, it also may go back fundamentally to an astronomical point, which is that the sun is like the center of the solar system and it represents wisdom and like knowledge and the intellect and the mind.

但水星是紧随太阳之后的第一颗行星，它在某种程度上充当了太阳与太阳系中其他所有行星之间的守门人或中介。

But Mercury is the very first planet that comes after the sun and that acts as a gatekeeper or as a go between in a sense between the sun and all of the rest of the planets and the rest of the solar system.

因此，如果你接受这个真实的天文观点，你就能理解，为什么我们可以象征性地将水星解释为信使或中介。

And in that way, you can understand maybe if you take that astronomical point that is true, how we could interpret that symbolically then that Mercury represents the messenger or the go between

对。

Right.

通过其快速的运动，传递太阳的基本智慧。

Being around communicating the basic wisdom of the sun through its quick motion.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

但这是一个有点棘手的问题。

But then this is this is a little sticky point.

但那时候，他们本该理解太阳，也确实把它放在中心，却没有把它放在最靠近水星的位置。

But at that time, they hadn't they should have understood the sun, but and they put it in the center, but they didn't put it closest to Mercury.

太阳位于火星和木星之间。

The sun was between Mars and Jupiter.

嗯。

Mhmm.

不对。

No.

在木星和金星之间。

Between Jupiter between Mars and Venus.

在火星和地球之间。

Between Mars and the Earth.

按照行星与太阳的排列顺序，太阳占据中心位置，但它并不在太阳系的正中心。

The in the order of the planets from the sun with the sun holding the central position, but it but it wasn't at the very center of the solar system.

对。

Right.

我的意思是，这是对的。

I mean, that's true.

我想我只是在想，是的。

I guess I was just thinking of Yeah.

为什么水星仍然代表

Why why does Mercury still represent

对。

Right.

沟通，这种说法确实普遍成立。

Communication in a way that's true become true universally.

正如你所说，这仍然是大家对水星唯一一致认同的象征意义。

And as you said, that that's still the one signification that everybody agrees on for Mercury.

我认为，归根结底，是因为它在太阳系中所处位置的现实性，这部分真相始终成立，无论我们过去拥有怎样的天文模型。

And I would say because ultimately, the reality of the place that it occupies in the solar system and that that piece of it was true and has always been true as a result of that reality regardless of what astronomical models we had in the past.

但是啊。

But yeah.

但接着我们就进入另一个问题，即那最初是如何确立的，以及其他所有方面。

But then we get into a separate question of how was that originally established and everything else.

但是

But

他们并没有以我们今天所理解的方式看待水星靠近太阳的状态。

They weren't seeing Mercury's proximity to the sun in the way that we understand that to be the case.

所以是的。

So Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

这可能会引出一个奇怪的讨论，比如，即使我们得出结论所依据的前提并不真实，我们仍然能直觉到某些事情是真实的。

That can bring us into a weird discussion of, like, doing to intuit things that are true even though the premises upon which we based our conclusion are not true.

我的意思是，是的，我认为这种情况确实会发生。

I mean, yeah, that I think that happens.

这在科学史上有时会发生，有人基于错误的理由对某事做出假设或推论，但结论却是正确的。

That's something in, like, the history of science sometimes where somebody can make a assumption or an inference about something for the wrong reasons but still be true.

后来你可能会发现，那个人得出这个结论的前提是错的，但他们的结论本身仍然是准确的。

And then later, you can find out that the premise of why that person got to that conclusion was wrong, but that the conclusion that they had gotten to was still accurate.

所以，是的，我会想到这一点。

So, yeah, I think about that.

也许我们现在就处在这个状态。

That sometimes maybe that's where we're at.

好的。

Okay.

我们继续吧。

Let's keep going.

谢谢。

Thank you.

如果我们放任自己，你和我完全可以聊上好几个小时甚至好几天的岔题话题。

You and I can, like, get off on whole tangents for hours and days if we let ourselves.

好的。

Alright.

谢谢。

Thank you.

这对水星来说不错。

That's good for Mercury.

是的。

Yep.

我们来谈谈金星，这是另一个传统线索非常清晰明确的例子。

Let's move on to Venus, which is another one where just the through line across the traditions is very clear and very explicit.

对。

Yeah.

你知道，苏美尔人早于巴比伦人，他们崇拜的是女神伊南娜。

You know, we the Sumerians who predated the Babylonians, it was the goddess Inanna.

当巴比伦人继承苏美尔文化时，他们把伊南娜称为伊什塔尔。

And then when the Babylonians took over the Sumerian culture, they gave the name of Ishtar to Inanna.

但早在文字出现之前，伊南娜和伊什塔尔就已经与金星联系在一起了，因为在埃雷克城的城门上，她的形象通过八角星来代表，这反映了金星每八年完成一次回归周期的天文现象。

But Inanna Ishtar had been associated with the planet Venus from even preliterate times because she was represented in iconography and on the gates to a city at Erek by the eight pointed star, which speaks to Venus's minor period of eight years of making that return planetary period return cycle.

因此，在文字发明之前，有人就已经通过雕塑浮雕上的八角星与太阳、月亮并列来识别金星，并据此推算出了这一规律。

So someone had figured that out before writing was invented based on the dating of sculptural reliefs signifying Venus by the eight pointed star next to the sun and moon.

我忘了这一点。

I forgot about that.

这一点我们在关于伊南娜的那期节目中深入讨论过。

So and that's something we talked about extensively in the the Inanna episode.

这非常重要，因为这意味着一些最根本的神话可以追溯到天文观测。

That's really important because again, that means some of the fundamental myths are going back to astronomical observations.

他们观察天象，然后将部分天文现象编码进神话中。

They're observing astronomy and then they're encoding some of the astronomy in the myths.

但同时，当这些天文现象被赋予象征性解读时，这种象征意义也被编码进了神话里。

But then to the extent that the astronomy is then sometimes being interpreted symbolically, that's getting encoded in the myths as well.

我知道并非每个神话都如此，但对于一些天体神话而言，这似乎确实是一个重要的组成部分。

So I know I know that's not always happening in every myth, but with some of the celestial myths, that does seem like an important component.

然后我们有阿马萨杜卡的金星表，它们大约可追溯到公元前1700年。

Then we have the Venus tablets of Amasaduqua, and they're, like, circa 1,700 BC.

我认为这个日期在世纪范围内是准确的，这在古巴比伦时期算是相当早的了。

I think that's the right date within a century, and that's pretty early on in the old Babylonian period.

在那里，人们记录了金星作为晨星和昏星的出现与消失，并用这些现象来追踪农业收成、饥荒以及战争等不同事件。

And there you have the observations of the planet Venus as morning and evening star with their appearances and disappearances being used to track agricultural productivity and times of famine of the land and different war thing different events with wars.

因此，在古巴比伦时期，金星的观测已被明确记录下来。

And so that there's a very close correlation of the planet Venus being written down in the old Babylonian period.

我昨晚试图查证这一点，但因为不懂阿卡德语而卡住了。

And I tried to track this down last night, and I got stumped by not actually knowing Acadian.

但在这些泥板的译文中，他们使用了‘金星’这个词。

But in the translations of those tablets, they use the word Venus.

但我知道，在楔形文字原文中，他们并没有使用‘金星’这个词。

But I know in the cuneiform text, they did not use the word Venus.

我敢肯定。

I guarantee you.

我相信他们用的是伊什塔尔这个词。

And my belief is is that they may that they use the word Ishtar.

好的。

Okay.

行。

K.

但我无法拿出某块楔形文字泥板来权威地证实这一点。

But I can't point to some cuneiform tablet and establish that authoritatively.

但我肯定，金星并不是公元前1700年被转写为阿卡德语的那个词？

But for sure, I can I know that Venus was not the word that was being, transliterated into Akkadian in seventeen hundred BC?

对。

Right.

好的。

Okay.

好的。

Okay.

因此，行星与神祇的名字之间有着明确的对应关系。

So then you have there's a clear identification there between the planet and the name of a deity.

我们谈到了伊南娜下到冥界，而金星被称为晨星，是驾战车出征的战争女神。

And we talked about Inanna's descent to the under and and Venus was known as the morning stars, the goddess of war who rode into battle.

她尤其在尼尼微城受到尊崇，那是亚述帝国的首都，一个极具军事色彩的帝国。

And she was especially venerated as such in the city of Nineveh, which was the capital of the Assyrian Empire, which was a very militaristic empire.

但在她的苏美尔首都埃利克（E R E C H）或乌鲁克（U R U K）——取决于你怎么拼写——她更多地被奉为爱神。

But she was more worshiped as the goddess of love in her Sumerian capital of Erech, E R E C H, or Uruk, U R U K, depending on how you spell it.

在那里，她是爱神，也是神圣妓女或宫廷女侍的守护神。

And there she was the goddess of love and the, patron of the, sacred prostitutes or court courtesians.

我想指出的是，希腊神话中的阿佛洛狄忒，其崇拜中心在科林斯，那座城市以神圣卖淫而闻名。

And I just wanna point out that Aphrodite in the Greek pantheon had her city at Corinth was known as being, a city of sacred prostitution.

因此，这两个主题跨越了漫长的时间，在不同文化中都与这位女神相关联。

So we have those two motifs spanning long period of time in different cultures as being associated with this goddess.

我们之前谈到了伊南娜下到冥界，参加她妹夫内尔伽勒的葬礼，内尔伽勒是火星之神，我们稍后会讲到火星。

And we spoke about Inanna's descent to the underworld, to attend the funeral of her brother-in-law, Nergal, who's the planet Mars and will get to Mars.

然后她被悬吊起来，众神前来将她释放，她作为晨星重新升起。

And then her being hung up, and then the gods come and get her released, and she comes up out as the morning star.

接着，在伊什塔尔的神话中，她的爱人名叫塔姆兹。

Then when we have the mythology of Ishtar, Ishtar's lover is named Tammuz.

他被杀死后，前往了冥界。

And he's killed, and he goes to the underworld.

伊什塔尔下到冥界，要求释放他，并威胁说如果冥界不把他还给她，就打开冥界之门，放所有人出来。

And Ishtar goes down there demanding his release and threatening to open the gates of the underworld and let everyone out if the, Aristotle doesn't give him back.

最终达成一项妥协：他必须每年在冥界度过一半时间，另一半时间则可以回到人间与伊什塔尔团聚，就像因南娜的丈夫德墨忒尔一样，他一半时间在冥界，另一半时间返回，他们庆祝神圣婚姻，循环再次开始。

And there is, a compromise where he has to spend half of the time in the underworld, and he can come back the other half of the time with Ishtar In the same way that Inanna's descent, her husband Demetra spent half the time in the underworld, and then the other half he could return, and they would celebrate the sacred marriage, and the cycle would start again.

在阿佛洛狄忒的故事中，她的爱人名叫阿多尼斯，他被野猪杀死。

Then in the story of Aphrodite, she has a lover whose name is Adonis, and he is killed by the wild war.

他死后前往冥界，阿佛洛狄忒希望他能回来。

And he goes to the underworld, and Aphrodite wants him back.

她下到冥界，冥界女王珀耳塞福涅却说：不行。

And she goes down there, and Persephone, who's the queen of the underworld, says, no.

你不能拥有他。

You can't have him.

我是说，我想把他留给自己，因为他太美了。

Like, I want him for myself because he's so beautiful.

然后她们发生了争执。

And they get into a fight.

最后，宙斯出面调停。

And then finally, Zeus is called into compromise.

好了，孩子们。

He's okay, girls.

就是一人一半。

Like, half and half.

你懂的？

You know?

你们每人每年各得一半时间。

Each of you get a map of each year.

所以我们看到，与金星相关的女神进入冥界，与她爱人相关的问题互动，并且必须在相同的时间内达成妥协。

So we have a continuity of the goddess associated with the planet Venus going into the underworld to interact with the issues associated with their lover, and the compromise has to be affected for the same amount of time.

最后，在希腊神话中，有珀耳塞福涅本人前往冥界，并达成了一半一半的协议。

And then finally, in Greece, have, you know, Persephone herself who goes to the underworld, and a deal is made for half and half.

因此，我们可以看到苏美尔、巴比伦、腓尼基和希腊神话中这些与金星相关的女神之间有着直接的联系。

So in that, we see a direct linkage of the Sumerian to the Babylonian to the Phoenician Greek myths of these goddesses who are connected with that planet.

好的。

Okay.

这非常好。

That's really good.

这说得通。

That makes sense.

所以你提到的这些点，具体是指哪些呢？

So showing these so what what are points you brought up those?

因为我们现在讨论的是伊南娜和/或伊什塔尔。

Because we're talking about Inanna and slash Ishtar.

有一件事让我想到，我们应该提到的是，我们常常把美索不达米亚传统——这个持续了两千多年、早于希腊化占星术的时期——当作一个整体来看，但实际上它并不是。

One of the things that that reminded me of that we should say is we're often treating the Mesopotamian tradition which was like an entire two thousand year period before Hellenistic astrology as if it's monolithic, but it wasn't.

更细致的处理方式应该区分不同的文化，以及它们对这些神祇的不同概念，还有它们之间的连续性或非连续性。

A more careful treatment would separate out the different cultures and their different conceptualizations of these gods and what their continuity or discontinuity was.

例如，美索不达米亚早期的金星神被称为伊南娜，但后来另一种文化兴起，他们版本的这位神祇就是伊什塔尔。

For example, the earlier version of the Venus god in Mesopotamia was called Inanna, but then there was another culture that became prominent and their version of that was Ishtar.

虽然两者有一些重叠，但也存在一些重大差异。

And while there was some overlap, there were also some major differences.

是的。

Mhmm.

在腓尼基文化中，还有阿斯塔特，她成为腓尼基的爱神。

And then you have in the Phoenician culture, Astarte, who became the Phoenician goddess of love.

腓尼基人将对她的崇拜传播到整个地中海地区，尤其是塞浦路斯——紧邻腓尼基海岸，那里是希腊神话中阿佛洛狄忒的诞生地之一。

And the Phoenicians carried her worship across the Mediterranean, particularly to Cyprus, which is right off the Phoenician coast, where it's one of the birthplaces of Aphrodite in the Greek pantheon.

好的。

Okay.