双鱼座在占星学中的含义与特质解析

由于你被困在一个能让你接触到永恒或无需面对现实的领域，因此在物质和物理层面上可能出现缺乏进展或前进动力的情况。

That there can be lack of progress or lack of forward movement materially and physically because you're stuck in a realm that's giving you access to the timelessness or to not having to deal with things.

而这本身实际上就成了一种逃避形式。

And that actually becomes a form of avoidance in of itself.

这在某种程度上是一种对现实的逃避。

It's like avoidance of reality to a certain extent.

是的。

Yeah.

对于双鱼座来说，需要开始思考现实的不同层次，以及它们如何相互竞争和对比；你知道，双鱼座常常会倾向于其中一种而忽视另一种，有时甚至选择逃避这一种而非另一种。

Well, with Pisces, think that reality is In Pisces, have to sort of start thinking about the different layers of reality and how they compete compete and contrast and how You know, with Pisces, a lot of times you get the preference of one over the other and sometimes the avoidance of this one instead of this one.

对吧？

Right?

所以这可能体现在物理层面。

So that can be the physical.

另外，如果我们谈论的是陷入某种典型成瘾的人，他们在心理上也同样被困在了暗礁上。

Also, you know, if we're talking about someone who's mired in one of the stereotypical addictions, they're also stuck on the reef psychologically.

他们在内心深处也没有任何进展。

They're not going anywhere internally either.

是什么从根本上让他们陷入困境？或者有哪些不同的因素可能导致一个人被困住？

What is it that's keeping them stuck fundamentally or what are some of the different factors that might keep somebody stuck?

我知道，比如科特·柯本，他 famously 有海洛因成瘾问题，尽管那情况相当复杂。

I mean, I know trying to think of different people like Kurt Cobain, for example, famously had a heroin addiction, although that was kind of complicated.

我知道有些人土星落在双鱼座，会有饮酒方面的问题。

I know someone like a Saturn placement in Pisces and issues with drinking.

那可能是什么原因呢？

What is the thing maybe?

我的意思是，这显然是个复杂的话题，显然不能把所有这些都归因于双鱼座，还有其他因素在起作用，尤其是在现代，成瘾越来越多地被理解为一种疾病或其他类似情况。

I mean, because obviously that's a complicated topic and obviously we can't attribute all of that to Pisces and there's other factors going on especially to the extent that addiction in modern times is starting to be better understood as an illness or other things like that.

我只是想理解双鱼座那种可能较为明显的双重倾向——即倾向于逃往不同领域，以及这种倾向背后的种种动机。

I guess I'm just trying to understand the dual natured tendency that maybe Pisces has that's somewhat pronounced towards escaping to different realms and the different motivations for that.

但也许我们已经通过无时间性与疗愈性的逃避方式部分解释了这一点，只是有时这种逃避会对身体造成负面影响。

But maybe we've started to really sort of explain some of that already in terms of the timelessness and healing nature of escaping, but how sometimes that can be detrimental physically.

我的意思是，即使是积极的逃避方式，也有人会争论并批评，比如玩太多电子游戏、读太多小说，或者做任何过度的事情，而这些本可以用来投入当下现实。

Mean, even with the good forms of escapism, you know, there's people that would argue, obviously that would criticize like playing video games too much or reading fiction like too much or doing anything too much that's not where you could instead be putting your time into the here and now.

关于这一点，有不同的观点，讨论它的利弊。

And there's different arguments about that or the pros and cons of that.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为作为双鱼座或与双鱼座相关，有一个特别值得注意的特征。

Think there's a I signature thing to get stuck on as a Pisces or with Pisces.

我觉得这更多是他们应对障碍的方式，对吧？

I think it's more the way they deal with obstacles, right?

因为每个人在人生途中都会在某种程度上陷入困境。

Because everybody gets stuck to a certain degree on the things that happened along the way.

很多情况发生在童年时期，成年后也可能会遇到各种事情让人停滞不前。

Many of them in childhood, plenty of things can happen after childhood that you get stuck on.

从某种意义上说，每个星座都有自己的应对方式，或者选择不去应对。

In a sense, the signs all have ways of dealing with that or not dealing with that.

星座能告诉你很多关于一个人的决策路径以及他们如何看待情境的信息。

The signs tell you a lot about the decision tree of the person and how they frame situations.

双鱼座会避开负面，追求正面。

The Pisces avoid the bad, seek the good.

是的。

Yeah.

这有点过于简化了，但我们所讨论的一切，确实都关乎如何应对或不应对这些问题。

That's oversimplifying it, but everything that we've talked about is very much the way of dealing with it or not dealing with it.

比如，我不确定。

Like, don't know.

我不知道，哦，好吧。

I don't know the Oh, okay.

我想我们可以这么说，有一些特别属于双鱼座的容易陷入的困境，这些可以看作是我之前提到的宏大框架的扭曲或堕落。

I guess we can There are specifically Piscean things to get stuck on, and those are, how should we say, afflictions, corruptions of that big frame that I was talking about.

你提到双鱼座可能有一种根本性的底层乐观主义。

You were saying that with Pisces, can be a fundamental sort of underlying optimism.

我会把这描述为一种领域内的乐观。

I would frame that as an optimism of the field.

从双鱼座的视角出发，当你看到宇宙的整个框架，直到你所能观察到的宇宙意识生命为止，如果你认为这一切是掠夺性的或残酷的，那么这种认知就会渗透并塑造一切。

From operating within Pisces, when you see the entire framework of the universe, far as you can see out of it, of conscious life in the universe, if you see that as, for example, predatory or cruel, then that intrudes on everything and frames everything.

你会想，哦，我在哪里？

You're like, Oh, where am I?

生命的意义是什么？

What's the meaning of life?

很奇怪的是，我会被微妙地折磨，直到我在这里的存在被抹去。

Odd is to be subtly tortured until my time here, until I'm erased from existence.

如果我们谈论的是更大的框架，这个框架也可能是残酷的、噩梦般的或怪诞的。

If we're talking about that bigger frame, that bigger frame can also be cruel or nightmarish or monstrous.

同样，这种东西并不局限于任何一处，而是无处不在。

Again, that's a thing that's not any one place but is everywhere.

就像木星在双鱼座的喜悦状态，为一切提供了一种更轻盈、更有支持性的框架，它不在任何特定地方，却在某种程度上无处不在。

Just like the A happy Jupiter in Pisces provides a more buoyant supportive frame for everything that isn't anywhere, but it's a little bit everywhere.

因此，双鱼座会执着于那些其他人未必能理解的宏大框架性问题。

And so Pisces gets stuck on things that are big frame questions that other people don't necessarily appreciate.

他们会说，对，但如果我们看看上周二发生了什么，也没那么糟。

They're like, Yeah, but if we look at what happened last Tuesday, that wasn't so bad.

但双鱼座会说，哦，但还有背景呢。

But then the Pisces will be like, Oh, but the context.

哦，但其中所发生的宇宙确实是可怕的。

Oh, but the universe that occurred within is indeed monstrous.

反之亦然，周二糟透了，但更大的图景却是美好的。

Then vice versa, Oh, Tuesday was terrible, but the larger thing is nice.

因此，人们渴望理解时间中故事的本质，以及现实的基础——这通常通过灵性或宗教实践与方法来探索，因为人们一直在追寻：那宏大的背景究竟是什么？

And so there's that wanting to understand the nature of stories existing within time and what is the ground of reality which is usually explored through spiritual or religious practices and methods because there's the seeking that, what is the big context.

对。

Right.

大局是什么？

What is the big picture?

这与处女座形成了非常重要的对比，因为这两个由水星主宰的星座往往关注较小的事物，尤其是处女座，倾向于关注极其细微、近乎微观的细节；而与由木星主宰的双鱼座形成对比的是，双鱼座关注的是宏观层面、普世性的问题，比如‘这一切究竟意味着什么’这类问题。

And that's a really important contrast with Virgo just because the two Mercury ruled signs tend to focus on smaller things, especially Virgo and very minute, almost microscopic things and details whereas the contrast with Pisces ruled by Jupiter is the big picture things, the universal things like what is it all about type things.

而当你拥有一个功能健全、连贯的更大图景时，它就能帮助你进行优先级排序，对吧？

And then with that, when you have a functional or coherent sort of bigger picture that allows you to prioritize, right?

这非常符合木星的特质，你会说：‘不，这才是重要的事。’

Which is very Jupiter and be like, Oh no, this is what's important.

这件事能持续重要好几年。

Matters for years.

而其他那些事，无论成败，都只是关乎一天的事。

This other thing, whether it works or doesn't work, that's just a matter of a day.

这就引出了双鱼座。

And so that leads to Pisces.

你可以将这一点与回避联系起来。

You can tie that to avoidance.

我还要说，除了回避之外，还包括忽视那些看似低优先级的事情。

I would also say that without avoidance, there's also in ignoring things that seem low priority.

就像，我不会把时间花在那上面。

Like, Yeah, I'm not going to spend my time experience on that.

这没什么大不了的。

It's not a big deal.

‘这没什么大不了的’这句话其实是在谈范围，对吧？

It's not a big deal is a statement about scope, right?

当然，当一切顺利、优先级正确设定、你真正选择了一年的轨迹而非一个下午的轨迹时，这非常美好。

Which of course is lovely when it's all working, when the priorities are determined correctly when you really are choosing the arc of a year over the arc of an afternoon.

但有时候，那个下午的重要性可能比最初判断的要大，对吧？

But sometimes that afternoon is more important than was initially judged, Right?

而处女座非常擅长把事情做对，把下午的细节处理好。

And, you know, Virgo is really good for getting the thing right, right, getting the afternoon right.

处女座的观点是，生活是由一个个瞬间组成的。

And, you know, the Virgo argument is that, well, the a life is made of moments.

所以，如果你把每一个瞬间都做对了，你就把握住了整体。

And so if you get all the moments right, you've nailed the hole.

是的。

Yeah.

特别是顺序性，处女座做事喜欢按顺序进行，而双鱼座则是变动星座。

Especially sequentially, is something Virgo does things like in order sequentially whereas Pisces is a mutable sign.

我总是想到公元二世纪或一世纪的多罗西乌斯在择时占星中谈到变动星座时的说法。

I always think about how Dorotheus in the second century or first century talked about in electional astrology like with mutable signs.

如果你选择了一个以变动星座为重点的星盘，你会开始一项行动，但在第一项行动完成之前，必须启动第二项行动，而第二项行动会先于第一项完成。

If you elect something with a mutable emphasis chart that you'll start one action, but then before the first action is completed, there will have to be a second action that's initiated and the second action will be completed first before the first one is brought to completion.

因此，这是一种发散的特质。

So there's this discursive quality.

是的。

Yeah.

你会把事情做完，但你会分心，然后又回来继续，这与固定星座形成对比——固定星座会直线前进。

You're get it done, but you're gonna get distracted and then you're gonna come back to it, which is contrasted in the same text with fixed, you're just going to go in a straight line.

而开创星座，你会做一阵子，然后开始别的事，就不再回头了。

And cardinal, you'll do this for a while and then you'll start something else and not come back to it.

对。

Right.

比如说是强烈的初始启动，但不是固定宫位导致难以完成事情？

Of like a strong initial starting but not cardinal having problems bringing things to completion?

实际上，启动本身也是问题，因为他们会开启一条全新的轨迹，完全偏离方向，正如多罗西乌斯所说。

Literally, the starting is also the problem because they'll start a new trajectory that takes them completely away in Dorotheus.

但没错，这种回头再来的特点，用双鱼座和处女座来思考也很有趣。

But yeah, that coming back too is interesting to think about with Pisces and Virgo.

对于处女座，我认为很多时候回头是为了修改。

With Virgo, I think a lot of times it's coming back for edits.

回头是因为觉得这还不够好。

It's coming back, this isn't quite good enough.

对吧？

Right?

就像，你知道的，我以为我做完了，然后我又回去做了。

Like, you know, I I got it done then I went or I thought I got it done.

我去了那边，然后又回来这里，发现根本不是原本该有的样子。

I went over here, and then I come back to this and it's just not it's not what it should be.

对吧？

Right?

而双鱼座则显得更飘忽、更流动一些。

Whereas with Pisces, I think it's a little a little bit more little bit flakier, a little bit more fluid.

他们会觉得：哦，但我后来被别的事缠住了，然后又绕了回来。

They're like, Oh, but then I got caught up in this and then I wound back around to this.

是的。

Yeah.

关键词像是离题、偏题、迂回，甚至可能有些散漫、模糊。

The keywords like discursive, digressive, meandering potentially or maybe even wandering diffuse to a certain extent.

对。

Yeah.

我认为，那种绕圈式的漫游，作为一种独特的探索方式，对双鱼座至关重要。

I think circumambulatory wandering, which is its own form of exploration, is really crucial to Pisces.

我一直在想，关于我们今天的讨论，水瓶座故事的形态是什么？

One of the things I was thinking about for our discussion was what is the Pisces shape of a story?

在水瓶座的故事中，主角通常身处一个神秘的世界，试图理解自己以及自己在其中的位置，还有这个世界本身，也就是努力理清自我与世界的关系。

And in Pisces stories, the protagonist is usually or is often in a mysterious world and trying to understand both themself and their place in it and the world itself, like trying to get the self world relationship right.

这种关系在一开始可能因为自我内部的谜团而无法解决，也可能因为世界本身的谜团而无法解决，或者两者兼而有之。

And there's either a mystery in the self that makes that question impossible to solve at the beginning or a mystery in the world that makes the self world relationship impossible to solve in the beginning or both.

这很有趣，因为它与射手座产生了联系。

And so you have this sort of This is interesting because it connects with Sagittarius.

射手座也喜欢探索，但通常是主动出发前往未知之地。

Sagittarius also likes exploring, but it's usually I'm setting out for parts unknown.

在射手座中，你有一种主动、有意志力的特质，而在水瓶座中，更像是我发现自己置身于一个陌生的地方。

With Sag, you have that active sort of volitional quality, whereas with Pisces, it's more I find myself in this strange place.

我发现自己处在一个地方，在那里，有时梦境比清醒的生活更真实，同时有些梦境似乎预示着清醒生活中的事情，但并非所有梦境都如此。

I find myself in a place where sometimes some dreams feel more real than waking life and also some dreams seem to foretell things about waking life, but not all dreams.

那么，现实的本质究竟是什么？

What is the nature of reality then?

在给定x、y和z的情况下，梦的本质是什么？

What is the nature of dreaming given x, y, and z?

我认为一个通俗的版本可能是《盗梦空间》。

I think on a shitty pop version would be inception.

探索不同层次的现实，可能在其中迷失，最终更深刻地理解现实是多层次的，但在过程中也会迷失。

Get exploring different layers of reality and potentially getting lost in those, eventually coming out understanding reality as a multilayered thing better but getting lost along the way.

我们之前谈到过《人鬼情未了》，你提到了它。

You mentioned what dreams may come when we were talking earlier, what dreams may come.

灵魂的本质是什么？

What is the nature of a soul?

灵魂在死后会如何？

What is the fate of a soul after death?

我们可以做些什么？

What can be done?

我们不能做什么？

What can't be done?

这种关系的真实本质是什么？

What is the true nature of this relationship?

我觉得这些通常是双鱼座的特征。

I see those as typically Piscean.

我还想补充一点，对于极客来说，经典电脑角色扮演游戏《异域镇魂曲》我认为是迄今为止最具双鱼座特质的叙事之一。

I would add to that for the nerds, the classic computer role playing game Planescape Torment is, I think, one of the most Piscean narratives ever.

主角在一张葬礼用的石板上醒来，却想不起自己是谁。

The protagonist wakes up on a funereal slab and can't remember who he is.

当你醒来时，发现自己身处一座城市，这座城市位于所有天堂、地狱以及正常世界之间，这些不同现实领域的居民在此交汇、做生意等等，你逐渐发现，你曾在这里度过许多生世，而且你是不朽的，但每次死亡后，你都会忘记一切。

And as you wake up, you find yourself in the city, in a city that is, between every heaven, hell, and, you know, and normal worlds, where all the denizens of these of these different realms of reality intersect and do business, etcetera, etcetera, and you slowly find evidence that you've lived many lives there and that you are immortal, but every time you die, you forget everything.

因此，你试图理解这个奇异地方的本质，同时也在 literally 追寻你曾经是过的每一个人的身份，并决定自己将成为谁。

And so you're trying to understand the nature of this strange place, but you're also literally hunting down the mystery of everybody you've been and then deciding who you're going to be.

游戏开始时，似乎你只忘记了一段人生，但随后你发现这种情况发生过很多次，而且你在某一次人生中是个彻头彻尾的混蛋。

At the beginning of the game, it seems like there was just one life that you forgot, and then it seems that this has happened a bunch of times and that you are a total fucking shit during one of your lives.

你遇到了你那次人生中的受害者们。

You meet your your victims from that life.

你会遇到一些人无缘无故地攻击你，而他们自己也记不清为什么。

You have people attack you for no reason that can remember.

你还会发现一些你曾圣洁如仙的生活。

You also find lives where you were saintly.

你也会找到一些你过得还行的生活，有赢有输。

You find others where you were, you know, you were okay, where you were a winner, where you were a loser.

我觉得这非常双鱼座。

I would say that's very Piscean.

然后，作为双鱼座的主角，这个主角被称为‘无名者’，因为你记不起自己的名字。

And then I would add as the Piscean protagonist, the main character in that is called the nameless one because you can't remember your name.

我是谁？

Who am I?

我还在想威廉·吉布森几部小说中的双鱼座主角。

I also was thinking about in terms of Piscean protagonists in several of William Gibson's novels.

威廉·吉布森被认为是赛博朋克的奠基人，或者如今更像是一位教父级人物，而他本人就是双鱼座。

William Gibson who is considered the sort of father or at this point grandfather of cyberpunk and who is son in Pisces.

在他的两部三部曲中，我认为主角本质上都是双鱼座类型的角色。在《桥梁》三部曲中，主角设定在2030年代左右，拥有一个奇特的天赋——可以整天浏览互联网，却并不专注于任何特定内容。

In two of his trilogies, he has, I would say, essentially a Piscean protagonist in the Bridge trilogy, the main ish character, and this is set in 2030s I think, is somebody who has this strange talent where they can basically just look at the internet all day long, but they don't focus on any one thing in particular.

他们观察信息的流动、特定图像、色彩和数据流的分布，最终能通过把握整体趋势来预知未来。这非常符合双鱼座的特质，对吧？

They look at the flow of information and the prevalence of particular imagery and colors and data flows and end up being able to prophecy about the future by looking at the entire shape of what's going It's a very Piscean thing, right?

这是预知能力吗？

Is it prophecy?

是直觉吗？

Is it intuition?

还是精神错乱？

Is it madness?

当然，我相信这个角色最终对多种物质产生了严重依赖，身体状况也非常糟糕。

And of course, this character I believe ends up very addicted to a variety of substances and not doing very well physically.

而在下一组三部曲中，主角是一位女性，她对糟糕的品牌设计真的会产生生理过敏反应。

And then in the next trilogy, the protagonist is a woman who is literally physically allergic to bad branding.

明白了。

Okay.

因此，她实际上是全球最受欢迎的品牌顾问，因为人们只要给她看一个营销活动，如果内容糟糕，她就会感到不适，或者产生身体反应。

And so she's actually the most sought after brand consultant in the world because people can just show her a marketing campaign and she will get hypes if it's bad or will have a physical sensation.

这种奇特的直觉式预知能力，使她能够把握信息的整体脉络，而不是专注于某一部分。

There's this weird intuitive prophetic ability to navigate the sum of information rather than any one piece.

好的。

Okay.

我想回到之前的话题，不会太远，但要特别感谢卡米尔·米歇尔·格雷，她为本集的调研提供了帮助，自《双子座》那一集以来，她就一直参与了整个系列的工作。

I wanted to go back to not to take us too far back, but shout out to Camille Michelle Gray who helped with some of the research for this episode as she has actually since the Gemini episode and throughout this series.

我真的想感谢她，因为她的贡献对我的节目制作和准备工作起到了至关重要的作用。

Really, I wanted to thank her for that because it's been a huge part of helping me to do and prepare for each of these episodes.

谈到从双鱼座到水瓶座，或从水瓶座到双鱼座的转变时，她说：双鱼座通过注入情感与温暖来修正水瓶座。

So talking about the transition from Pisces to Aquarius or to Pisces from Aquarius, she says, Pisces corrects Aquarius by inserting emotion and warmth.

水瓶座那种冷峻的理性能量，需要双鱼座的想象力来软化那些过于僵化和教条的东西。

The colder intellectual energy of Aquarius benefits from a Piscean sense of possibility from the loosening of that which is too rigid or and prescriptive.

水瓶座为人类设定的目标，通过双鱼座能量的灵活性与润滑作用，更容易被人们接受——让人们不只是思考，而是真正有所信仰，这是一种用创造与同情取代纯粹理性强制的修正。

The goals Aquarius has for humanity are more easily transmissible through the flexibility and the lubrication of Piscean energy to give people something to believe in rather than just giving people something to think about, the correction of brute force of intellect with creative and compassionate approach.

而正是最后一个关键词，我觉得特别重要，如果我们能继续展开的话，我通常将它与双鱼座联系在一起，比如同情、共情，有时这种情感还会延伸到所有其他有感知的生命。

And it was that last keyword that I thought was really important I wanted to expand on if we can, which is something I commonly associate with Pisces are things like compassion, empathy, and sometimes that kind of extends to all other sentient beings.

比如，有些人经常从事慈善工作，帮助无家可归者，或者特别关注动物福利和动物权益，甚至像一些素食者，他们不吃肉是因为不想让其他有感知的动物遭受痛苦，这源于一种深刻的内在共情，同时也支持和提升那些处于困境中的人。

Like sometimes people that do a lot of charity work or work for the homeless for example, or people that are really into helping out animals and animals rights and things like that or who even like sometimes somebody like a vegetarian who wouldn't do that because they don't want to Wouldn't eat meat because they don't want to inflict suffering on another sentient animal due to this being, due to this real internal sense of empathy, but also just affirming and raising up those who are in a difficult position.

但有时这种情感也会延伸到精神、宗教或哲学语境中，比如试图通过宗教或传教的方式去拯救某人的灵魂之类的？

But sometimes that can then also be extended to when it gets manifested in a spiritual or religious or philosophical context, even like trying to help somebody out by saving their soul or what have you in a religious context or in a missionary context?

当你谈到共情与同情，以及这些驱动力时，你对其中一些做法有什么看法？

How do you feel about some of that when it comes to empathy and compassion and some of those drives?

是的。

Yeah.

不，我觉得这些都是很好的方面。

No, I think that's all good stuff.

我正在特别思考三到四件事。

Just thinking in particular about three or four things.

我先挑其中一件来说。

And I'm gonna pick one.

所以，我认为痛苦的普遍性是海王星位于双鱼座时的一种自然特质，这让你——如果你是这颗行星的主宰者——能够产生共情。

So yeah, I think the universality of the experience of suffering is something that just kind of comes with planets in Pisces, which allows you, if you are the owner of said planet, to empathize.

在宗教语境中，你所谈论的实际上是近乎圣人的行为：放弃任何会制造痛苦的行为，而这正是源于痛苦本身如此深重。

And in a religious context, you're talking about what are essentially saintly behavior, to forego any action that creates suffering, but that comes out of because there's so much suffering.

我认为双鱼座典型的经验之一就是明白，我们所有人从中升起的那片浩瀚海洋，同时也是一片痛苦之海，这是不言而喻的。

I think one of the standard Piscean package of experiences is knowing that the great ocean from which we all rise is also an ocean of suffering and that's just a given.

但这并不意味着痛苦就是唯一的东西，对吧？

It doesn't mean that that's the only thing, right?

海洋广阔无垠，其中包含着无数片海域，但当然，痛苦确实存在，当然会让人感到痛心。

The ocean is vast and holds many seas within itself, but of course there's suffering, of course that hurts.

这是必然的，是每个生命体都不可避免的一部分。

That's a given, that's part of the case for every living being.

是的。

Yeah.

你请说。

Go ahead.

对此你几乎无从防御。

There's sort of no defense against that.

其他大多数星座都会说，没错，这确实是真的，但我正忙着做别的事。

Most other signs are like, Yeah, that's true, but I'm busy doing this thing.

而双鱼座则不同，这种认知是其基本前提，会直接影响其所有行为或方式。

Whereas with Pisces, that's one of the baseline assumptions that leads into whatever actions or approaches.

顺便说一句，这只会让你发疯。

And that can only drive you crazy, by the way.

没错。

Right.

这正是我在理解双鱼座时感到困惑的地方，因为双鱼座有一种至高的对痛苦的理解，以及对痛苦的同情与共情。

That's something I struggle with to understand with Pisces because there's that element, the supreme understanding of suffering and sympathy and empathy for it.

有时，这种特质也会伴随着一种淡淡的忧伤。

And there can also be a sort of sadness sometimes there associated with it.

但我正试图理解这一点，弄清楚这些星座基本特质在原型层面的切入点在哪里，因为从理论上讲，比如由木星守护的射手座，最初就具有更乐观或根本上积极的倾向。

But I'm trying to understand that and figure out what the access point is archetypally with some of those basic properties of the signs since it otherwise theoretically at least like Sagittarius being ruled by Jupiter has that more optimistic or fundamentally positive orientation initially.

但我觉得，部分原因在于双鱼座最初以极大的开放性和情感脆弱性来面对事物，因此在人生早期某个阶段，他们这种情感上的开放、脆弱与积极态度，往往会遭遇世界的反面——被伤害、被打击，这种经历令人清醒，也难以应对，更难以与他们原本积极、开放、富有同理心的世界观相调和。

But I think maybe part of it is that Pisces, because it initially approaches things with such an openness and an emotional vulnerability to things, there can be an experience at some point relatively early on in life of having that emotional openness and vulnerability and positiveness be met with the opposite of that in the world and therefore sometimes to be hurt by that and have the experience of being hurt by the world that is kind of sobering and is kind of hard to deal with and hard to reconcile with their initial orientation to things, which was somewhat positive and open and empathetic.

是的。

Yeah.

我想说，双鱼座渴望理解，而这种想要理解的渴望，意味着不会拒绝任何经历或对事物的认知，因此你必然会遭遇这一切。

Well, I would say that Pisces wants to understand and that the desire to understand and therefore to not disallow experience and knowledge of things, it means that you're going to encounter all of that.

在双鱼座的语境下，更大的木星式目标——理解，意味着要直面苦难，不是那种‘某个人遭遇了某件事’的个体化苦难，而是更深层的：‘这种事情，也可能发生在任何人身上。’

The greater Jupiterian goal of understanding in the context of Pisces means engaging with suffering, not suffering as we say on an explicitly individual level where, well, that thing happened to one person, but more like, ah, that can happen to a person.

我记得我妈妈是双鱼座，她经常说的一句话，我不确定她是否频繁提起，但这句话却深深印在我心里：每当有人因自己的行为、他人的行为，或只是命运的无常而受苦——通常这三者交织在一起，对吧？

I remember one of the things that my mom, Pisces, always I don't know if she even said it that much, it was just enough that it stuck in my mind is that whenever there was a case of a person suffering through their own actions or somebody else's or just the world or any usually it's a combination, right?

她会引用圣经的话说：‘若非上帝的恩典，我也可能如此。’

She would quote the Bible and she would say, There but for the grace of God go I.

她并不是一个虔诚的宗教信徒，但这句话一直留在我心里：在不同的境遇下，我可能也会是那个受苦的人。

And she's not a religious woman, but that always stuck in my mind that under different circumstances that could be me.

对吧？

Right?

绝对会防御自己陷入任何境地。

There's absolute defense against finding yourself in any situation.

比如，如果我成长的环境稍有不同，如果我的身体形态不一样，如果我得到的是来自不同人的建议，那可能就是我。

Like, Oh, if I had been brought up slightly differently, if my body was shaped differently, if I had different advice from different people, that could be me.

仅靠个人的意志和选择，无法避免绝大多数的痛苦。

Individual will and choices alone cannot keep you from the vast majority of suffering.

这其中存在某种恩典、运气等等。

There's a certain level of grace, luck, etcetera, etcetera.

基本上，就是那句‘那可能就是你’。

Basically, it was that that could be you.

这句话一直深深印在我心里，这感觉像是代代相传的双鱼座智慧。

That always stuck with me and that feels very intergenerational Pisces advice.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这几乎是同理心的根本定义——能够理解并分享他人的感受，设身处地为他人着想，从而直觉地理解那种感受并产生共鸣。

I mean, that's the fundamental almost definition of empathy, the ability to understand and share the feelings of another, to put yourself in somebody else's shoes and therefore to understand almost intuitively what that would be like and to sympathize with it.

让我打断一下，因为我觉得你提到的这一点对双鱼座来说至关重要——那就是投入其中，然后想：‘哦，原来这就是那种感觉。’

Let me stop you one because I think you said something I think really crucial to Pisces is the ability to pour yourself into that situation and be like, Oh, that's what it would be like.

我感觉我需要稍微对比一下双鱼座和其他水象星座的不同。

Again, I feel like I need to contrast this a little bit with the other water signs.

对于双鱼座来说，这是一种介入然后抽离的过程。

With Pisces, it's a sort of like stepping in and then withdrawing.

对于巨蟹座来说，他们愿意共情并投入的范围要小得多，但这种共情却更强烈，也更难抽身。

With Cancer, there's a much more limited number of people and situations that they're willing to empathize to do that empathic pouring, but it's much more intense and also harder to withdraw from.

双鱼座的特点之一就是沉浸其中，然后退离。

Part of the Pisces thing is immersing and then retreating.

双鱼座擅长放下事物，这可能会让人觉得：‘哦，这太糟糕了，现在我要去吃点饼干了。’当人们谈起生活中遇到的双鱼座时，有时会困惑于他们表面上看似极具共情力，却突然变得冷漠或抽离。

Pisces is good at letting go of things and that can be like, Oh, that's terrible and now I'm gonna go have crackers, I know that people when they talk about Pisces in their life are sometimes confused by what seems super empathic and just not at all or just moving on or distant.

而巨蟹座和天蝎座，我认为，对那些他们共情的情境和人物则更加执着。

Whereas Cancer and Scorpio, I would say as well, are much more dedicated to the situations that they empathize with and the people they empathize with.

天蝎座的情况则更加固着不变。

It's much more fixed in the case of Scorpio.

而双鱼座就像是：是的，但我做不到那样。

Whereas Pisces is sort of like, Yeah, but I can't do that.

当双鱼座的范围如此广阔时，无法陷在里面，我觉得这就是那种感觉。

When the scope is as big as it is with Pisces, can't get stuck, I would say is the feeling.

你应该能够投入进去，但你需要把水收回来。

You should be able to pour in, but you need your water back.

对。

Yeah.

情感上的放手，我不觉得这是天蝎座的特点。

Letting it go emotionally is not something I would associate with Scorpio.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

是的。

Yeah.

所以这实际上非常有趣。

So that's actually really interesting.

我的意思是，我一想到双鱼座，总会联想到一些令人难过的事情，比如科特·柯本，他有一个双鱼座的行星聚集体，土星也在那里，太阳也在双鱼座。

I mean, one the I always associate that's kind of sad when I think about Pisces is I sometimes think about Hurt Cobain who had a Pisces stellium with Saturn there as well as the Sun in Pisces.

但他创作的方式以及他在遗书里写的内容，大量谈到了他的共情力和敏感性。

But how he wrote and what he wrote in his suicide note is he talks a lot about his empathy and his sensitivity.

这一直让我印象深刻，因为他甚至一度提到自己是个悲伤、敏感的小双鱼座，但事情远不止如此。

It's something that always stands out to me because even references it at one point like being a sad, sensitive little Pisces, but it's more than that.

他用了许多其他措辞，这些话对我们正在讨论的内容很有洞察力。

It's like he's using a lot of other phrases and things like that that are kind of insightful in terms of what we're talking about here.

所以为了视频观众，这正是其中一部分。

So just for the video viewers, this is part of it.

他谈到自己感到难以言喻的内疚，并一度说：我太敏感了。

He talks about feeling guilty beyond words and he says at one point, I'm too sensitive.

我需要稍微麻木一点，才能重新找回童年时曾拥有的热情。

I need to be slightly numb in order to regain the enthusiasm I once had as a child.

我认为他反复提到这一点非常重要，因为他说道：我无法摆脱对每个人的挫败感、内疚和共情。

I think there's something really important about that that he comes back to because he says, I can't get over the frustration, the guilt, and the empathy I have for everyone.

所以他对于所有人都怀有共情。

So empathy he feels for everyone.

他说我们每个人内心都有光明，而我认为我只是太爱人们了，爱到让我感到无比悲伤。

He says there's good in all of us and I think I simply love people too much, so much that it makes me feel too fucking sad.

那个悲伤、敏感又不被理解的双鱼座，天啊，你为什么就不能好好享受呢？

The sad little sensitive unappreciative Pisces, Jesus man, why don't you just enjoy it?

他说：我不知道。

And he says, I don't know.

他开始谈论他的妻子，说她富有共情力，他还说，我有一个女儿，她让我想起了曾经的自己——充满爱与喜悦，亲吻每一个她遇到的人，因为她相信每个人都是善良的，不会伤害她。

He starts talking about his wife who says has empathy and he says, And I have a daughter who reminds me too much of what I used to be, full of love and joy, kissing every person she meets because everyone is good and will do her no harm.

这让我恐惧到几乎无法正常运作。

And that terrifies me to the point where I can barely function.

他实际上是在对比，他认同孩子那种开放的态度，以及自己曾经体验过的东西，但后来却因这种开放而受伤，随着年龄增长，他意识到这种开放会让你容易受到伤害。

Like he's actually contrasting, he relates to like the openness of a child and something he used to experience, but then feeling like hurt by that and like growing older realizing that that openness can leave you open to being hurt.

但他接着说，只有因为看起来有同理心的人相处起来似乎很容易，我想，是因为我太爱别人，也太为别人感到难过。

But then he goes on, he says, Only because it seems so easy for people to get along that have empathy only because I love and feel sorry for people too much, I guess.

然后他以‘和平、爱与同理心，柯克·奥班’作为结束。

And then he ends it saying, Peace, love, and empathy, Kirk O'Bain.

这是他的星盘，供参考：他上升星座是处女座，太阳、水星、金星和土星都位于双鱼座。

And here's his chart just for reference where he had Virgo rising and the Sun, Mercury, Venus, and Saturn all in Pisces.

更不用说其他水象星座的配置，比如月亮和木星在巨蟹座，火星和海王星在天蝎座。

Not to mention other water placements like the Moon and Jupiter in Cancer and Mars and Neptune in Scorpio.

他所有可见的行星都位于水象星座。

He had every visible planet in a water sign.

是的。

Right.

这是一个相当极端的例子，但我觉得它也很重要，因为它体现了敏感与同理心的双重性——这固然是种极好的品质，但有时这种开放性，尤其是当你与其他星座比如天蝎座对比时，会显得格外突出：天蝎座几乎更深刻地意识到，这种开放与敏感会让人变得脆弱，因此需要建立防御来保护自己。

So that's kind of an intense example, but I think it's also just important because it's that dual nature of that sensitivity and that empathy which can be a really good quality, but also sometimes the openness can Especially if you compare it to other signs like Scorpio for example, that's almost more existentially aware of the openness and sensitivity being defensive against that or that that leaves you open to vulnerability or needing to put up defenses to guard against that.

双鱼座在某些方面最初并不会以这种方式应对情境，有时这可能会让人产生一种悲伤感之类的。

Pisces in some ways doesn't initially approach situations with that and sometimes maybe it leaves it open to having a sense of sadness over that or something like that.

是的，我觉得这是对的。

Yeah, I think that's true.

这让我回到了我们之前关于回避的讨论。

That leads me back to our discussion about avoidance.

每个星座，所有这些行为模式都有其自身的防御机制。

Every sign, all of these modes of being have their own defense mechanisms.

对吧？

Right?

巨蟹座和天蝎座常被形容为有铠甲的，它们确实有着坚硬的外壳——螃蟹和蝎子都有坚硬的外骨骼。

With Cancer and Scorpio, will literally see these signs referred to as armored, They literally have a hard shell, the crab and the Scorpion have an armored exoskeleton.

你可以从巨蟹座对关心对象的界限中看到这一点。

You can see that with the limits on who I'm going to care about with Cancer.

天蝎座也是如此，但选择标准不同，决定了我会关心谁、会对谁保持坚硬的态度。

Same same with Scorpio, but different selection process, what I'm going to care about and what I'm going to remain hard against.

而双鱼座并不是一种有鳞片的 armored 动物，而是具有逃避的特性。

And so with Pisces, this is not an armored animal that's got scales, but what it is is evasive.

这正是回避或选择的一部分——我会在这里，而不在那里。

That's part of that avoiding or selecting, I'll be here and not there.

不，今天我不想看互联网，因为我知道一旦接触，我就会感受到它，所以我干脆不让自己接触。

No, I don't want to look at the internet today because I know that I will feel it if I take it in, and so I'm just not going to expose myself to that.

双鱼座的防御机制就是回避。

That's Pisces defensive armor is the avoidance.

是的。

Yeah.

如果我们观察动物世界，抵御威胁的方式只有那么几种，其中之一就是不在场。

If we look at the world of animals, there are only so many ways to defend against threats and one of them is to not be there for it.

在身体对抗中，有阻挡、干扰可能伤害你的东西，有盔甲，还有就是躲避。

Think of in the martial contest of bodies, there's blocking interfering with what's going to harm you, armor, and then there's evading.

比如，我只是往这边迈一步，这样就不会挨到那一拳。

Like, I'm just going to take this step here so that I'm not going to be here for the punch.

是的，我喜欢这个说法。

Yeah, I like that.

这很有道理。

That makes a lot of sense.

好的。

All right.

为了总结这一部分，卡米勒写了一些处女座和双鱼座之间的对比，我认为这些内容可以作为对两者对比以及双鱼座本身进行初步思考的良好起点。

So to round out this section, Camille had written out some contrasts between Virgo and Pisces that I think might be a good jumping off point for some final initial thoughts about both that contrast as well as just Pisces on its own.

那我快速读一下其中一些内容。

So let me read some of those really quickly.

卡米勒写道：处女座与双鱼座的对比在于，处女座是在物质领域提供服务，而双鱼座则是在意识、灵魂或精神领域提供服务。

So Camille writes, The contrast between Virgo and Pisces that Virgo is the service in the material realm while Pisces is service in the realm of consciousness, soul, or spirit.

处女座依靠准备，双鱼座依靠信念。

Virgo operates on preparedness, Pisces operates on faith.

我对双鱼座的‘信念’这个说法有不同意见。

I'm gonna dispute faith there with Pisces.

哦，信仰？

Oh, faith?

好的。

Okay.

我的意思是，我们确实没有讨论过这一点。

Well, I mean, we do That's one of the things we haven't talked about.

我们只是为了方便起见而略过了它，你知道，在当代占星学中，我们一直面临着一个困境：过去一个世纪里，海王星被重新分配给双鱼座，而我们许多现代占星师对双鱼座的理解都基于这一设定——我并不是说卡米尔，而是指包括我和你在内的所有人，最初都是通过现代占星学接触到这个概念，把海王星完全等同于双鱼座；但过去三十年来，又出现了一股回归传统理解的潮流，即重新将木星视为双鱼座的传统守护星，并通过这一视角重新诠释星座含义。我在这系列内容中一直在有意识地采用传统守护星体系。

We're just glossing over it for the sake of this is, you know, in contemporary astrology, we do have a struggle between the reassignment of Neptune to Pisces over the past century and a lot of our modern astrologers conceptualization of Pisces being based on, and I'm not necessarily saying Camille, but just like all of us including me and you that first learned astrology through modern astrology that associated Neptune solely with Pisces versus the movement over the past thirty years to go back to some of the original understanding of Jupiter being the traditional ruler of Pisces and reconceptualizing the signs through that, which is something I've been consciously doing with this series is using the traditional rulerships.

我们有时能看到一些重叠之处，比如某些关键词，现代占星师通常将它们与海王星联系起来，但这些含义其实也可以通过木星的视角，以及双鱼座作为 Mutable 水象星座的特性来理解。

And we can see sometimes the overlap where there's certain things, certain keywords I think that modern astrologers associate with Neptune that we could still understand through the lens of Jupiter and through Pisces being a mutable water sign, for example.

但有时，这些象征意义的模糊性或互换性依然存在。

But sometimes you do still have some of that ambiguity or that interchange of significations.

好吧，我先读完剩下的部分，我们再回头讨论这个。

All right, let me read the rest and we'll come back to that.

好的。

Okay.

好的。

All right.

好的，处女座的关键词，我有个计划。

Okay, Virgo keyword, I have a plan.

双鱼座的关键词，我有个梦想，这我觉得非常有趣，因为马丁·路德·金的月亮在双鱼座。

Pisces keyword, I have a dream which I think is really interesting because Martin Luther King had the Moon in Pisces.

处女座是逻辑型思维，双鱼座是神秘型思维。

Virgo as logistical mind, Pisces as mystical mind.

处女座是学术型智慧，双鱼座是情感或灵性智慧。

Virgo as academic intelligence, Pisces as emotional or spiritual intelligence.

处女座是务实的，双鱼座是富有幻想的。

Virgo as practical, Pisces as fanciful.

处女座是物质的，双鱼座是形而上的。

Virgo as physical, Pisces as metaphysical.

处女座是常识，双鱼座是第六感。

Virgo as common sense, Pisces as sixth sense.

处女座代表自律，双鱼座代表自我消解。

Virgo as self discipline, Pisces as self diluting.

处女座寻求信息，双鱼座寻求灵感。

Virgo as seeks information versus Pisces seeks inspiration.

处女座需要知道，双鱼座随遇而安。

Virgo needs to know, Pisces goes with the flow.

处女座是批判性思考者，双鱼座是宏观思考者；处女座聚焦细节，双鱼座则神游天外。

Virgo critical thinker, Pisces big thinker, and then Virgo zooming in, Pisces spacing out.

是的，我喜欢这个说法。

Yeah, I like that.

这挺不错的。

That's pretty good.

那么，有哪些让你印象深刻的对比点，适合作为讨论话题，或者你希望进一步展开或修改的？

So what are some of ones that catch you that might be good discussion points or ones to either expand on or that you'd like to modify?

你能把列表再放出来一下吗？

Can you put the list back up?

是的。

Yeah.

在这儿。

Here it is.

所以，聚焦和放空，其中一个有用，另一个没用。

So zooming in versus spacing out, one of those is useful and one of them isn't.

双鱼座擅长放远视角。

Pisces is good at zooming out.

这两种情况就像是镜头在切换。

It's literally like there's a lens change with both.

并不是双鱼座停止了专注或不去思考，而是通过放远视角来思考背景。

It's not that Pisces just stops concentrating, doesn't think about things, it thinks about context by zooming out.

是的。

Yeah.

就像显微镜观察原子，与望远镜观测整个星系之间的区别。

Or the difference between a microscope that's looking at atoms versus a telescope that's taking in the entire galaxy.

是的，正是如此。

Yeah, exactly.

所以对于‘需要知道’，双鱼座会随遇而安，但与‘需要知道’形成对比的是，我认为双鱼座需要的是理解。

So with needs to know, Pisces does go with the flow, but as a contrast to needs to know, I would say Pisces needs to understand.

这和相关不同，也和知道不同。

Which is different than related to but different than knowing.

我喜欢这个说法。

I like that.

知道和理解，这个说法很好。

Knowing versus understanding, that's pretty good.

是的。

Yeah.

我也会同样用‘寻求信息’和‘寻求理解’来类比。

And I would also maybe do the same with seeks information, seeks understanding.

自律 versus 自我欺骗，我觉得在比较星座时，不应该用一个美德和一个恶习来对比。

Self discipline versus self deluding, I don't think we should be doing one virtue and one vice when we're comparing signs.

我们应该比较缺点，或者比较优点。

We should compare vices or compare virtues.

对比是什么？

What's the contrast?

所以，处女座是自我约束，双鱼座则是自我。

So self discipline with Virgo, Pisces has self.

我想说，自律所达到的是秩序。

Well, I would say what discipline gets to is ordering.

因此，处女座追求的是物质世界和身体行为中的秩序。

And so with Virgo, have an ordering of the physical realm and actions within the physical realm.

双鱼座寻求秩序，但这种秩序存在于无形的层面。

Pisces seeks order, but it's coherence on an invisible level.

双鱼座希望拥有一个有序的灵魂，如果这能带来有条理的行为，那当然很好，但这并不是优先事项。

Pisces wants to have an ordered soul, and if that results in orderly action, then great, but it's not the priority.

我觉得它们都在寻求某种东西，也许处女座在寻求秩序，而双鱼座在寻求连贯与和谐。

Think they're both seeking Maybe Virgo is seeking order and maybe Pisces is seeking coherence and harmony.

我喜欢这个。

I like that.

对，这说得通。

Yeah, that makes sense.

连贯与和谐。

Coherence and harmony.

这很有道理。

That makes a lot of sense.

好的，很好。

Okay, good.

里面还有几个其他有趣的点，如果你不介意再放回去看一下的话。

And there were a few others in there that were interesting if you don't mind putting it back up.

当然。

Sure.

在这儿。

Here it is.

实际的幻想，实际的想象力，物理的形而上的，是的，可见的，不可见的，无论我们如何定义这种基本的分界。

Practical fanciful, practical imaginative, physical metaphysical, yeah, visible, invisible, however we want to kind of address that basic divide.

是的，就像大地与水。

Yeah, like earth versus water.

是的，尤其是双鱼座的水，对吧，那是木星的水。

Yeah, well, and especially the water of Pisces, right, which is Jupiter water.

我还觉得，处女座和双鱼座之间也有区别，我应该说，处女座关注的是可知之物，而双鱼座则始终对神秘感兴趣。

I also think with Virgo, there's also Virgo Pisces, I should say Virgo is interested in seeking what is knowable, and Pisces is always interested in mystery.

双鱼座会想：但还有什么是没人知道的呢？

Pisces is like, Oh, but what does nobody know yet?

人们认为我们不可能知道的是什么？

What do people think we can't know?

究竟什么是无人知晓的？

What does no one know?

什么是神秘的？

What is mysterious?

这让我想起一句我知道被归于爱因斯坦的名言，但是

It makes me think of the quote I know was attributed to Einstein, but

我正要提到他的星盘。

at this I was just about to bring up his chart.

在当今互联网时代，这句话真是爱因斯坦说的吗？

At this point in the internet, was it Einstein's quote?

我不知道，我完全没头绪。

I don't know, I'm gunshot.

没错。

Correct.

我这是在转述，但你肯定见过那个被广泛传播的段子，说的是随着知识体系的扩张，神秘的边界也在扩大。

And I'm paraphrasing, but it's the quote you've probably seen memed, is about how as the body of knowledge expands, the periphery of mystery expands.

如果知识是一束光，占据某个空间，那么知识越庞大，神秘的周长就越大。

That if knowledge is a light or occupies a given space, then the bigger knowledge gets, the larger the circumference of mystery is.

处女座和双鱼座都对知识感兴趣，对吧？

Virgo and Pisces are interested in knowledge, right?

但对于处女座来说，重点是边界之内的东西，而双鱼座则坐在边界上，凝视着外部未知的领域。

But with Virgo, it's what's inside that boundary and Pisces is staring off into Sitting on the periphery and staring outward into what's not yet known.

是的，这很有道理。

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

是的，爱因斯坦可能是二十世纪最积极、最著名的双鱼座人物之一，他的太阳落在双鱼座23度，上升星座为巨蟹座，中天度数为双鱼座12度。

Yeah, Einstein probably one of the more positive or prominent Pisces especially in the twentieth century who had Cancer rising in the Sun at 23 degrees of Pisces and the degree of the Midheaven at 12 Pisces.

是的，我觉得特别有趣的是，他的工作突破了当时科学范式的框架，彻底改变了我们对时间和空间以及两者相互关系的理解，这与我们之前关于时间、永恒性等话题的讨论紧密相关。

Yeah, some of that I thought was really interesting is just his work thinking outside of the box of the current scientific paradigm and completely changing our understanding of time and space and the interrelationship between the two is really interesting in terms of his theory of relativity and how that ties into some of our previous discussion about time and timelessness and other things like that.

是的。

Yeah.

当然，他的突破性工作正是源于梦境和想象。

And of course, the fact that the breakthrough work was inspired by dreaming and imagining.

对。

Right.

从梦境中获得灵感。

Of getting inspiration from a dream.

是的。

Yeah.

他也是那种并非原型但属于双鱼座刻板印象的典型代表，你会遇到这样的人。

He's also one of the best stand ins for not an archetype but a Pisces stereotype, you will encounter them.

那种赤裸着下身的天才，或者邋遢的天才——在某个领域极其出色、富有洞察力，但在其他正常的人类能力上却完全无能。

The pantsless genius or the sloppy genius who's so amazing and insightful and blah, blah, blah in one area and just completely absent from the competence in normal human things in another area.

这确实是一种双鱼座的典型形态。

It's definitely a Pisces shape.

对。

Right.

有这么一句话。

There's this quote

你可以取笑我。

You can take a dig at me.

你穿着裤子吗？

Are wearing pants?

我看到你在计算。

I saw you calculating.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

你现在穿着裤子吗？

Are you wearing pants right now?

我穿着，但只是因为天气冷。

I am, but only because it's cold.

好的。

Okay.

这说得通。

That's fair.

这很合理。

That's fair.

这非常实用。

That's very practical.

实际上，爱因斯坦有一句名言。

So there's a quote from Einstein actually.

他说：想象力比知识更重要，因为知识是有限的，而想象力涵盖整个世界，推动进步，催生进化。

Says, Imagination is more important than knowledge for knowledge is limited whereas imagination embraces the entire world stimulating progress, giving birth to evolution.

是的。

Yeah.

我知道他还说过很多类似的话，关于想象力和其他类似的事情。

And I know he's had a lot of other statements like that about imagination and different things like that.

对。

Yeah.

这很有趣。

It's interesting.

从某种意义上说，爱因斯坦代表了二战前科学史的许多真实面貌——那时充满了边缘性的伪科学、探索、迷失，然后最终发现了一些真正有价值的东西，而不是如今流行的将科学描绘成一种高度制度化、一步一个脚印的线性进程的叙事。

In a sense, Einstein kind of stands in for a lot of the real history of science before the post as we say, before the post World War II era where there's a lot of sort of borderline quackery and exploration and getting lost and then finding something that ended up being really valuable rather than how science is presented as being this very institutional linear one foot in front of the other way of moving forward, which is more the narrative that has become popular about science.

但我不知道，我做过一个梦，然后我做了数学推导，发现那里确实有些东西。

But I don't know, I dreamed it and then I did the math and I was onto something there.

我不提那些我梦到过但数学上站不住脚的其他时候，那种双鱼座边缘的神秘感，必须先迷失才能找到新东西。

Not mentioning the other times I dreamed things and the math did not stack up, that Piscean edge of mystery and having to get lost in order to find something new.

爱因斯坦就是这样，他也代表了这种真实的存在。

Einstein was that but also stands in for that, which is a real thing.

是的，这很有道理。

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

好吧，我正在翻看我其他的图表。

All right, I'm just looking through some of my other charts.

比如，我知道我过去用过的一个例子是水星位于双鱼座，因为有时会有人说，由于水星传统上在双鱼座既处于落陷又处于虚弱状态——因为它与水星的 domicile 和 exaltation 所在的处女座相对——所以水星在双鱼座被认为是一个糟糕的配置。

For example charts, I know that one that I've used in the past is like a Mercury in Pisces example because one of the statements that sometimes comes up is that because Mercury was traditionally said to be in both its detriment as well as its fall in the sign of Pisces because it's opposite to Virgo which is the sign of Mercury's domicile and exaltation that Mercury in Pisces is somehow thought to be like a bad placement for Mercury.

但这并不一定是个糟糕的配置，因为双鱼座水星的人实际上做了很多非常好、非常有趣且富有创造力的事情。

That's not necessarily a bad placement per se because there's actually a lot of really good and really interesting and creative things that Mercury in Pisces people do.

我过去用过的一个例子，也是卡米勒提到的，那就是二十世纪最著名的诗人之一——玛雅·安吉洛，她的上升星座是狮子座，水星与金星几乎精确合相于双鱼座第八宫。

One of the ones I've used in the past and one of the ones that Camille pointed out, of course, one of the most famous poets of the twentieth century which is Maya Angelou who had Leo rising and Mercury conjunct Venus, almost to the degree in Pisces, in the eighth house.

她是一位著名的诗人，我认为她很好地利用并发挥了双鱼座这个位置的正面能量。

And she was a famous poet, that was really able to lean into and use that Pisces placement I think in a positive way.

尽管她早年在语言表达等方面遇到过一些困难，但最终她在这方面取得了卓越成就，尤其是在写诗方面。

While she struggled with some issues early on when it came to speech and things like that, eventually it was something that she came to excel at especially in writing poetry.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这不就是最好的例子吗？

I mean, that's the example, right?

表达宏大的主题，实际上需要去玩味、颠覆并重新创造语言，这才是诗歌的本质。

Expressing huge things and really having to, I should say, play with and undermine and reinvent language in order to express things is sort of the poetic thing.

另外，关于水星在双鱼座的情况，我们可以这样理解行星与星座的关系：是水星本身进入了双鱼座。

Also, the situation of Mercury in Pisces, one way to think about planets and signs is it's Mercury and Mercury finds themselves in Pisces.

要获取关于双鱼座领域中任何重要事物的数据都非常困难，双鱼座的领域——海洋、大海，我们一直在谈论的这些事物，都超出了事实的范畴。

It is so hard to get any data on any of the things that are important in Pisces lands, the Pisces land, all the things the ocean of Pisces, the sea of Pisces, all these things that we've been talking about are all beyond the scope of facts.

事实可能涉及其中，但事实并不能帮你解开这个谜团。

Facts may be involved, but the facts don't help you solve the mystery.

那么，水星如何在这样一个其擅长的事实处理能力无法带来太大帮助的领域中前行呢？

And so how does Mercury navigate an area where Mercury's great capacity and cleverness with facts doesn't get you very far?

这是一个并不具有敌意的环境。

It's an environment that's It's not hostile.

你可以说它具有敌意，但如果你有翅膀，翅膀固然很好；可如果你在海洋一英里深的地方，那又有多大用处呢？

Well, you can say it's hostile, but if you have wings, the wings are great, but if you're a mile beneath the ocean, how helpful is that?

或者假设你长着翅膀，拥有美妙的嗓音，像水星一样，却身处海底一英里深处，没人能听见你，而你的翅膀简直就像一对糟糕透顶的鳍。

Or let's say you're winged with a beautiful voice like Mercury and you're a mile beneath the ocean and nobody can hear you and your wings are basically just like super shitty flippers.

这对水星来说，是一片难以Navigating的领域。

It's a difficult landscape for Mercury to navigate.

是的，毫无疑问。

Yeah, for sure.

有时候你确实会看到一些障碍出现，尤其是在行星处于落陷或落陷状态时；但有时，当行星在星盘中其他方面配置良好时，比如她星盘中与金星的合相，这种原本的困难区域反而可能转化为优势。

And it's like sometimes you do see some obstacles that come up especially with planets in detriment or with fall, but sometimes people especially when the planet is otherwise well configured as it is in her chart, like with that conjunction with Venus, that it can become like an area of difficulty can become an area of strength.

我知道她早年因为经历了一些重大创伤，几乎五年时间都失语了。

I know early in her life because of some major traumas that she experienced that she became mute for almost five years.

但在那段时间里，她培养了对书籍和文学的热爱，维基百科说她具备了倾听和观察周围世界的能力。

But during that time that she developed her love for books and literature and an ability to Wikipedia says her ability to listen and to observe the world around her.

我认为这一点非常重要，因为我们正在讨论一个夜象或阴性星座，或者像你说的阳象，这通常被认为是一种更被动的倾听或吸收信息的特质。

I think that's such an important thing also since we're talking about a nocturnal or feminine sign or a yang sign as you would say, which is sometimes what we consider to be a more passive quality of listening or taking in information.

我认为双鱼座是那种非常善于倾听的星座，能够真正静坐下来倾听和理解他人，这在某些情况下，与外向地表达和说出自己的想法一样重要。

I think Pisces is one of those signs that are really good listeners and an ability to truly sit and listen and hear people, which is in some instances just as important of a quality as the externalized act of speaking and externalizing one's thoughts.

是的，完全正确。

Yeah, absolutely.

吸收这些信息。

The taking it in.

这也是陷入神秘故事线的一部分。

And that's part of the sort of getting lost in a mystery storylines.

这就像是，嗯，我就在这里。

It's sort of like, Well, I'm here.

我需要集中注意力，才能弄清楚我是谁、我在哪里，以及你是谁、你在哪里。

I need to pay attention in order to figure out who and where I am and who and where you are.

那种水元素的语言，像是汲取它一样。

There's that water language like drinking it in.

比如，这个人是从哪里来的？

Like, Okay, where is this person coming from?

这里发生了什么？

What happened here?

所以有两件事与此相关。

So two things related to that.

第一，尽管水星在双鱼座确实处境艰难，但它身处一个吉星的星座，这比身处凶星的星座要好得多。

One, even though Mercury definitely has a hard time in Pisces, it is having a hard time in the sign of a benefic, which is not as bad as having a hard time in the sign of a malefic.

而且

And

在许多传统文献中，我们看到这些混合的描述，比如：‘但水星位于木星的星座，所以是好的。’

we have these mixed delineations in a lot of traditional texts where it's like, Well, But Mercury's in a Jupiter sign, so it's good.

但水星位于其落陷的星座，所以情况不好。

But Mercury's in a sign where it's in its fall, so it's bad.

但你看到了这两种情况。

But you see both of those.

是的。

Yeah.

几年前讨论‘落陷’这个概念时，有人提到过，在成对的对比星座中，水星与木星这一组是最容易调和的，相比之下，其他由火星和金星、或土星与日月主宰的组合则更难协调。

That was one of the things that was brought up during the whole detriment thing a couple years ago, is just of the two, the pairs of the signs of contrast with detriment, the Mercury Jupiter axis ones are like the easiest ones to reconcile compared to the other ones that are ruled by either Mars and Venus or by Saturn and the luminaries.

是的，完全没错。

Yeah, yeah, totally.

回到倾听这个话题，我长期以来用一个简单的比喻来说明木星在射手座和双鱼座中的不同角色：在射手座，我们看到的是牧师，他讲述真理，试图传道、布道，或解释这就是现实的本质。

Back to the listening thing, the way that I present the difference or the contrasting roles of Jupiter in Sagittarius and Pisces is just sort of like a quick image for a long time is with Sag, we have the priest who is speaking the truth or trying to preach the truth or proselytize or explain this is how reality is.

也可能是哲学家在讲课。

It could also be the philosopher lecturing.

而我则把双鱼座看作是告解者，他安静地倾听一个人内心的所有想法，然后在天主教的语境中，提供自己的理解，并给出能帮助人重新获得内心平静的方法或行动，对吧？

Whereas I really see the Pisces as the confessor who sits and listens to all of what's on a person's mind and then of course offers in a Catholic context, offers their understanding and then whatever methods or actions would bring a person back to a place where they're at peace with themselves, right?

赦免，与自我和神圣达成和平。

Absolution, at peace with themselves and the divine.

但这一切始于倾听。

But it starts with listening.

对。

Right.

是的，这太有道理了。

Yeah, that makes so much sense.

最后一点，为了完成卡米尔提到的玛雅·安吉洛的例子，她还是一位民权活动家，这体现了双鱼座的意图或倾向：帮助疗愈、纠正痛苦，并梦想一个更具包容性的现实。

And then the last thing just to finish off that example that Camille mentions about Maya Angelou is just that she was also a civil rights activist which demonstrates the Piscean intention or the tendency to help heal to correct a pain and to dream of a more inclusive reality.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我们之前已经提到过马丁·路德·金和他的双鱼座月亮，还有他那句著名的演讲——‘我有一个梦想’，这是美国历史上最著名的演讲之一。

And then we already mentioned the Martin Luther King and his Pisces Moon and just the idea that I have a dream, one of the most famous speeches in American history, the I have a dream speech.

是的。

Yeah.

他是个夜鲨，不是吗？

He He was a night shark, wasn't he?

所以并不是那种典型的双鱼座，而是双鱼座月亮？

So it wasn't the sectite Pisces, the Pisces Moon?

我对此做了大量研究。

I researched this a lot.

我研究过，但不知道过去五到十年有没有新的发现。

I researched it, don't know if there's been anything new in the past like I don't know, five, ten years since I researched it.

但当我研究时，马丁·路德·金博物馆之类的机构说他是正午出生的，这听起来有点可疑，因为毕竟我们也不确定。

But the Martin Luther King Museum or something like that when I had researched it said that he was born at noon, which sounds fishy because like, you know, we don't know.

但他们似乎很明确地表示他出生在中午左右，所以这通常被认为是正确的星盘：上升星座为金牛座，太阳在摩羯座，月亮位于双鱼座19度，金星也位于双鱼座并在第十一宫得势。

But they seemed pretty clear that he was born about midday, so it might actually be This is usually what's thought to be the correct chart which is like a Taurus rising chart with the Sun in Capricorn and the Moon at 19 degrees of Pisces with Venus also in Pisces exalted in the eleventh pulsine house.

这个星盘非常可信。

That's a very believable chart.

我好像几年前看过一个星盘，把月亮放在地平线以下。

Think I saw one and years ago that had it below the horizon.

但确实，木星在第一宫，而金星和月亮位于第十一宫的双鱼座。

But yeah, I mean, Jupiter in the first and then the Venus Moon in Pisces in the eleventh.

金星实际上与第一宫的木星形成互容，至少是交换了星座。

And Venus is actually in a mutual reception or at least exchanging signs with Jupiter in the first.

所以第十一宫和第一宫之间有着非常紧密的联系。

So you just have this super close tying together between the eleventh house and the first house.

是的，

Yeah,

这确实说得通。

that certainly works.

对，这非常有力，金星月亮在双鱼座，能够与广大人群产生共鸣，触及整体。

Yeah, that's very strong and speaking to wide groups of people with the Venus Moon in Pisces and the like speaking to the whole.

在他的职业生涯中，他不断整合越来越宏大的整体，成为将这一切凝聚成一个梦想的人。

Well, throughout his career increasingly larger wholes and being the person who is binding that together into a dream.

是的，凝聚成一个梦想，同时他也是一个传道者、牧师，在某种程度上以鼓舞人心的方式进行，不仅提升人们的精神，也体现了民权运动中不同派别所持有的和平主义倾向。

Yeah, into a dream and also the preacher, the pastor that's also doing it in a partially inspirational context and lifting people up as well as some of the sort of pacifistic tendencies just in terms of where different people were going with different elements of the civil rights movement.

他和他传达的信息中，有如此显著的双鱼座配置，却朝着这个方向发展，这很有趣。

Interesting with him and his message that we have somebody with such prominent Pisces placements that was going in more of that direction.

是的。

Yeah.

如果我们思考政治行动的方式，那么如此强大的吉星，对吧？

Well, if we're thinking of modes of political action, benefics that strong, right?

木星在第一宫，与第十一宫的金星形成互容，而第十一宫正好与月亮在一起。

Jupiter in the first in mutual reception with Venus in the eleventh, which is right there with the Moon.

吉星倾向于以非暴力、非强制的方式赢得支持。

Benefics try to win non violently and non forcefully.

对。

Right.

对，这很有道理。

Right, which makes a lot of sense.

是的。

Yeah.

让我们看看，有一件事

Let's see, there's something

这几乎让我们回到了之前讨论过的回避特质，但支撑它的是一种更深层的原型，并非单纯的回避。

Which almost takes us back to the avoidant quality that we've talked about, but it's that archetype underlying that, but it's not avoidance per se, it's something else.

在讨论如何通过非直接的身体对抗、甚至避免身体对抗却依然取得胜利时，还有一个词与此相关。

There's another word there that almost is relevant in that context when we're talking about how to win through not direct physical confrontation and almost avoiding physical confrontation but overcoming despite that.

是的，我会说，典型的双鱼座如果面对对手、敌人或对立派系，如果由你做主且以双鱼座的方式行事，你会将他们吸纳进来，使他们成为盟友。

Yeah, would say that archetypal Pisces, if confronted with rival, enemy, opposing faction, If you have your druthers and you're operating from Pisces, you incorporate them and you make them allies.

与其击败敌人，不如让敌人成为你的盟友，从而增强你的力量。

Better than vanquishing your foes is to have your foes add to your strength by becoming allies.

这就是木星式的做法，对吧？

That's the Jupiterian move, right?

大多数时候这可能吗？

Is that possible most of the time?

不可能。

No.

但在理想世界中，这比击败别人更好。

But in an ideal world, that's better than defeating people.

这比敌对军队直接放下武器离开还要好。

That's better than the opposing army literally putting down their swords and walking away.

更好的是，如果他们直接加入你的阵营，对吧？

Even better is if they join your boss right?

将原本反对你的力量转化为你自身力量的一部分，这才是最理想的双鱼座式胜利。

To add the strength that opposes you to the strength of your own side would be the best possible Piscean wind.

有这么一种说法，我该怎么表达呢？

There's something like How do I put this?

我想到了血液中的巨噬细胞，它们会吞噬病原体。

I think of macrophages in the bloodstream in the immune system, they just swallow pathogens.

这并不是我攻击然后它就死了，而是被融入了一个更大的整体。

It's not like I attack and it dies, it's the incorporating into a larger whole.

对。

Right.

这说得通。

That makes sense.

还有没有其他

Are there any other

当提到双鱼座时，你想到哪些图表例子，或者你曾经使用或引用过的经典例子？

chart examples that you think of when Pisces comes up for you or that you've used or invoked as classic examples?

前几天我刚想到，我记得有人说，蕾哈娜是双鱼座，对吧？

Was just thinking the other day, asked It was like, Rihanna's a Pisces, right?

因为我刚看了，我觉得是超级碗的表演，当时我就觉得，这太双鱼座了。

Because I'd just seen, I believe it was a Super Bowl performance and I was like, That seems so Pisces.

然后她说，没错，蕾哈娜是双鱼座。

And she was like, Yep, Rihanna's a Pisces.

我认为丽安娜身上有一种和爱因斯坦相似的特质。

And I think Rihanna has a little bit of the same sort of quality as Einstein.

我的意思是那种不修边幅的天才，或者说是随意的天才，丽安娜有一种魅力，这种魅力不在于完美执行、处女座式的细致入微。

And what I mean is the sort of pantsless genius or just the sloppy genius, there's a little Rhianna has a charm that isn't about perfectly executed, Virgoan sort of detail.

爱因斯坦、丽安娜，还有许多双鱼座的人都有一种松散感，这正是他们天才之处的一部分。

There's a sort of looseness to Einstein, to Rhianna, to a lot of Pisces that's part of what makes the genius work.

我应该说，就像衬衫不要太紧一样。

It's a little like, I should say, the shirt isn't too tight.

双鱼座是唯一一个两个吉星都感到最自在的星座，因此有一种轻松自在的感觉。

Pisces is the single sign where both benefics are happiest, and so there's a sense of ease.

它们在其他星座中也有大量行星，但这里有一种轻松、不那么追求完美或拘谨的感觉，这种拘谨会阻碍流动。

Both of them have lots of planets and other signs, but there's this sense of ease and not being too perfectionistic or tight in a way that would restrict the flow.

这真的很有趣。

That's really interesting.

这几乎让我们回到了土星主宰的固定星座与双鱼座之间的对比——到了双鱼座，一切都放松下来，又能自由呼吸了。

That almost takes us back to that contrast between Saturn being such a fixed Saturn ruled sign and then getting to Pisces and things just loosening up and being able to breathe again.

是的，完全正确。

Yeah, totally.

关于木星，我们常把木星看作是风的行星，不是指空气元素，而是指整个天空，带来风、雨以及赋予生命的气、普拉纳或 pneuma。

And with Jupiter, we often see Jupiter being the planet of the winds, not like the air element, but like all of the sky, bringing the wind and the rain and the life giving error or prana or pneuma.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

All right.

我们休息了一会儿，现在准备好进入第二部分了。

We're back from a little bit of a break and ready to move into part two.

所以在我们继续之前，对比其他星座之前，我想我们之前举过几个例子。

So I think we had a few examples before we move on and start contrasting with the other signs.

你有什么想法？

What do you got?

你现在想到什么了？

What's coming to mind for you right now?

好的。

Okay.

著名的双鱼座人物包括 Flavor Flav，好吧。

Famous Pisces or notable Pisces include Flavor Flav, Okay.

另一个赤裸下身的天才。

Another pantsless genius.

法比奥。

Fabio.

法比奥？

Fabio?

好的。

Okay.

不错。

That's good.

你可以看到，Flavor Flav 和法比奥可能不会立刻被联系在一起，但我们俩都想象出了这些角色。

You could see that Flavor Flav and Fabio might not be immediately associated, but we both have imagined characters.

弗拉沃·弗拉夫是一个你懂的，他扮演着一个极具想象力、非线性、直觉且充满热情的角色。

Flavor Flav is a you know, he's playing in a super imaginative, nonlinear, intuitive, enthusiastic character.

对吧？

Right?

我们都知道法比奥。

We know Fabio.

法比奥简直就是完美地体现了一种文化幻想，对吧？

Fabio was literally best able to embody a cultural fantasy, right?

这正是与梦想的交汇点——无论是成为一个富有想象力的角色，还是化身人们早已想象出的事物。

It's that intersection with dreaming, either to be an imaginative character or to embody something that people already imagine.

我还要说，他 bridging 了赤裸天才和忧郁双鱼座这两个类别，传奇的阿拉斯加·雷霆fuck，这位变装皇后，如果你听阿拉斯加说话，会感受到一种忧郁的土星式气质，同时她又是一位极其富有想象力的表演者，即使在变装领域也是如此。

I would also say bridging the pants less genius and sad Pisces categories, the legendary Alaska Thunderfuck who's a drag queen who is very If you hear Alaska talk, there's this melancholic Saturnian sort of quality while also being a fantastically imaginative performer even within drag.

而接下来这将是双鱼座月亮，但如果没有它，他们也不会成为他们自己。

And then this is going to be a Pisces Moon, but they wouldn't have been who they were without it.

伦纳德·科恩的月亮几乎完全位于双鱼座。

Leonard Cohen had a nearly full Moon in Pisces.