冥王星在占星学中的含义与象征

是的

Yeah.

我的意思是，艾伯廷写于1940年，他的著作影响了罗布·汉德，后者在1976年写了《行星相位》。

I mean, seems like Ebertin was a wrote in 1940 and then his text influenced Rob Hand who wrote Planets in Transit in 1976.

汉德对冥王星的某些解读，似乎对六七十年代兴起的那一代占星师产生了奠基性的影响。

And some of Hand's treatment of Pluto ended up seeming kind of seminal in terms of influencing the generation of astrologers that came in in the sixties and seventies.

所以我考虑是否快速朗读一下这两本书的几个片段，然后再讲讲你的书。

So I thought about maybe reading excerpts from those two really quickly and then going to your book.

好的。

Sure.

我认为，在那个早期阶段，戴恩·鲁迪亚尔也极具影响力。

I would say I think Dane Rudhyar was extremely influential as well in that early period.

艾伯廷这位德国占星师确实非常出色。

Ebertin was quite remarkable, the German astrologer.

他无疑对冥王星的某些层面有着敏锐的直觉，尤其是反映了他所处的时代。

Think he had a good intuition certain dimensions of Pluto for sure and particularly reflecting the period that he lived in.

我的意思是，他生活在纳粹德国、第二次世界大战等时期。

I mean, he's living through Nazi Germany, World War II, etcetera.

我的意思是，他在成年时期经历了第一次世界大战，还有第二次世界大战。

I mean, he lived through World War I too as well, in his mature years, World War II.

而查尔斯·哈维在占星界帮助将艾伯廷引入英语世界，他翻译了我们所使用的恒星影响组合部分。

And then Charles Harvey helped in the astrology world helped bring Ebertin into He translated part of combinations of stellar influence that we use.

罗伯·汉德确实是艾伯廷的仰慕者。

And Rob Hand certainly was an admirer of Ebertin.

但我认为戴恩·鲁雅尔对许多事物有着非常直观的理解。

But Dane Rudhyar, I think he had quite an intuitive grasp of many things.

其中之一就是对冥王星的理解，他认识到死亡与重生、毁灭与再生的特质，并将其置于集体层面来看待。

And one of them was of Pluto and recognizing this quality of death and rebirth, destruction and regeneration, and seeing it at a very collective level.

他在解读个人出生图时，并没有那么敏锐地把握这一点。

He wasn't as in tune with it in terms of reading birth charts, individual charts.

我真希望如果有研究鲁雅尔的学者能提供更多资料就好了。

He probably I'd love to see more if there's any Rudhyar scholars out there.

我非常想知道，是否有任何文献或他留下的个人资料，能让我们了解他最初是如何获得对冥王星意义的初步领悟的。

Would be very interested in knowing if there's literature or personal things he left behind that give us an indication for where he started getting his first intimations of the meaning of Pluto.

但我怀疑，这很大程度上与他对冥王星1930年被发现前后那段历史时期的理解有关，我稍后几分钟可以谈一谈。

But I suspect a lot had to do with his grasp of the periods immediately surrounding Pluto's discovery in 1930, which I can talk about in a couple of minutes.

不过，我们还是先顺着你刚才提到的内容继续吧。

But let's go along with what you had set out there.

好的。

Sure.

这是埃伯廷1940年关于冥王星的描述摘录。

So here's the excerpt from just the Pluto delineation from Ebertin in 1940.

他在1940年代的德国写作，这设定了一个非常鲜明的历史背景。

So he's writing in 1940s Germany, that sets a pretty distinct historical context.

他说，冥王星的原则是不可抗拒的力量或天意，无形的力量或势力，心理上的对应包括：积极的一面是意志或渴望行使权力，无意识力量的显现，无情的坦率或直率，影响大众的冲动，宣传性的志向与目标，理解大众。

So he says, The principle of Pluto is force majeure or providence, invisible forces or powers, psychological correspondences, positive ones are the will or the wish to exercise power, the manifestation of unconscious powers, ruthless frankness or candidness, the urge to influence the masses, propagandist aspirations and objectives, understanding the masses.

消极的心理对应包括：无情地使用武力或胁迫，煽动的倾向，狂热地坚持自己的教条原则，制造动荡与痉挛。

The negative psychological correspondences are ruthless use of force or coercion, inclination to incite, a fanatical zeal to state one's own doctrinal principles, to agitate convulsions and spasms.

他给出的生物学对应是集体无意识和再生。

Biological correspondence he gives is the collective unconscious and regeneration.

社会学对应是指那些能够对大众施加神奇影响力的人，如宣传者、演员、公众演讲者和政治家。

Sociological correspondences, persons who can be said to exercise a magical influence over the masses such as propagandists, actors, public speakers, and politicians.

所以，你知道，我们可以从中认出一些后来关于冥王星的常见主题，同时也有一些不同的内容，或者是我认为在当代资料中不太常被重复提到的。

So, you know, it's like we can recognize some of the later common themes of Pluto in there and there's also some in there that are different or ones that I don't think you hear repeated as much in contemporary sources.

是的。

Yeah.

但他提到了权力意志。

But he's got the will to power there.

他还提到了不可抗力，比如飓风来袭、地震，那就是不可抗力。

He's got the force majeure which has to do with like when hurricane comes through, an earthquake, that's force majeure.

这是大规模的非个人力量。

It's large impersonal forces.

他还表达了渴望获得权力的冲动，包括通过影响、改变人们的思维，引导他们朝特定方向前进，通过权力、宣传等方式。

He's also got the sense of the urge to have power including through influence, through changing people's minds towards leading them in a particular direction through the exercise of power, propaganda, etcetera.

他也有对群体特质的感知。

And he's got a sense of the mass quality too.

想想集体，那种群体特质。

Think the collective, the mass quality.

这就是为什么当冥王星被天王星等外行星激活时，事情往往会在群体层面上发生。

That's why during the big periods when Pluto is activated by one of the outer planets like Uranus, things tend to happen on a more mass level.

你会看到暴民行动、大规模示威、暴乱等等。

You have mobs acting and you have large demonstrations and riots and so forth.

因此，他确实涉及了这些方面，而艾伯廷通常倾向于——你知道的，他经历过一段非常黑暗的历史时期，因此有时会特别突出原型中更具问题性的方面。

So he's that a number of those things quite Ebertin generally has a tendency towards You know, he lived through a very dark period of history and, he has a tendency to at times to single out the more problematic sides of the archetypes.

而这就是我认为过去半个世纪里，像斯坦·格罗夫这样的人所做的深度心理学工作极为重要的地方——他们愿意进入冥王星领域，通过萨满仪式、神圣药物、仪式、LSD疗法、全息呼吸法、昆达利尼、瑜伽等方式，成为这些强大能量的载体，与它们建立更自觉的关系，并释放它们，以免它们在我们毫无掌控力、毫无道德意识引导的情况下，从深处驱使我们。

And this is where I think some of the great depth psychological work that's been done over the last half century, particularly by somebody like Stan Groff where there is a willingness to enter into that plutonic domain and become and basically through going through whether it's shamanic rituals, sacred medicine, ceremony, LSD therapy, holotropic breath work, anything, Kundalini, yoga, these where there's a capacity to, become a vessel of these very powerful energies and, become come into a more conscious relationship to them and also release release them so they're not driving us from the depths without any agency on our part, without any kind of moral consciousness informing our expression of it.

我认为深度心理学已经大大地与冥王星成为了朋友。

I think Depth psychology has gone a long ways towards becoming friends with Pluto so to speak.

因此，作为占星师，做内在工作至关重要，因为如果我们不做，就只会对冥王星感到恐惧，然后说：‘真倒霉，你遇到了冥王星相位’或‘你有土星相位’。

And that's why it's so important to do our inner work as astrologers because if we don't, we tend to just be afraid of like Pluto and too bad you got a Pluto transit or you've got this Saturn transit.

如果你没有在自己身上和生活中与这个原型和解，就容易把一种消极的、恐惧的看法传递给客户，这可能会造成不必要的伤害。

If you haven't come to terms with that archetype in yourself and in your own life, there's a tendency to pass on a negative view to your client a fearful one, etcetera, and that can be wounding unnecessarily.

我认为，作为占星师，我们尤其需要在与冥王星的关系中做好自己的内在工作。

I think it's important for us to do our own inner work in relationship to Pluto perhaps in particular.

是的，当然。

Yeah, for sure.

我想回到心理学，特别是深度心理学的兴起，以及可能在冥王星被发现后变得更加突出的某种现象。

I want to circle back around to the emergence of psychology, in-depth psychology as well as a possible thing that happened and became more prominent especially after Pluto's discovery.

但让我们先跳到几十年后的1976年，看看罗伯特·汉德的开创性著作《行星相位》，他在书中系统地阐述了所有主要行星相位，这在当时是重大而新颖的。

But let's jump forward historically a few decades to 1976 to Robert Hand's seminal book Planets in Transit, where he went through and provided delineations for all major planetary transits, was kind of a major and novel thing at the time.

自从这本书出版以来，将近五十年过去了，它已成为每位占星师在某个阶段都会阅读的著作，也是每位占星师书单上的必读之作。

And since this book came out, what, forty, almost fifty years ago, it's become one of those books that I think every astrologer reads at some point and is on every astrologer's shortlist.

因此，我认为他对于冥王星的表述方式非常重要，或者说是他构建这一概念的方式。

So as a result of that, I think his formulation of Pluto was really important or the way he formulated it.

他说，冥王星过境的意义。

So he says, The significance of transiting Pluto.

冥王星的性质类似于印度教神祇湿婆，既是创造者也是毁灭者。

The nature of Pluto is similar to that of the Hindu god Shiva, the creator and destroyer.

冥王星通常先打破一个结构，然后在其原位创造一个新的结构。

Pluto usually begins by breaking down a structure then it creates a new one in its place.

这种死亡、毁灭与重建的整个循环都伴随着巨大的力量。

This entire cycle of death, destruction and renovation is accompanied by tremendous powers.

因为冥王星并非一种温和甚至非常微妙的行星影响。

For Pluto is not a mild or even very subtle planetary influence.

你总能清晰地看到它的影响，从机器故障需要维修，到全面的破坏或死亡。

You can always see its effects very clearly ranging from machines breaking down and needing repair to full scale destruction or death.

某种程度上的衰败，随后从旧事物中诞生新生命，这是典型的冥王星过程。

Decay at one level or another followed by new life from the old is the typical Plutonian process.

典型的冥王星特质人群，是那些试图改变、转化并掌控周围一切的人。

Characteristically, Plutonian people are those who seek to change, transform, and take control of everything around them.

通常，冥王星的运行会标志一个改变你生活的人的到来，无论好坏，或者它也可能象征一个具有相同效果的事件或境况。

Often a Pluto transit will signify the arrival of a person who transforms your life either for good or for evil, or it can symbolize an event or circumstance that has the same effect.

冥王星也主宰着你内心那些必然导致变化的能量。

Pluto also rules those energies inside of you that lead inexorably to change.

它主宰着自我的死亡与重生，当旧有的生活层面消逝，被新的、否则无法出现的层面所取代。

It rules the death and regeneration of the self as old aspects of your life pass away and are replaced by new ones that could not otherwise have come into being.

冥王星并不指字面意义上的死亡，而是指一种隐喻性的死亡，即某种事物的终结。

Pluto does not signify death in the literal sense, instead it refers to a metaphorical death, something that ceases to be.

但它实际上仍在继续。

And it actually goes on.

抱歉，这段有点长，但完整阅读这段文字是值得的。

Sorry, this is kind of long but worth reading the full passage.

他继续说道：冥王星所经过的那颗行星的能量，会成为你生活中变化与转化的源泉。

He goes on and he says, The energies of the planet that Pluto is transiting become a source of change and transformation in your life.

你可能会与他人陷入严重的权力斗争，并在与那颗行星相关的生活中领域经历变革。

You may get involved in serious power struggles with other people and changes in the areas of your life associated with that planet.

当冥王星运行经过你的宫位时，它标志着你生活中那些亟需彻底转变的领域——那些已累积到无法再修补缺陷的结构。

As Pluto transits your houses, it signifies the areas of your life that are due for radical transformation in the area ruled by the transiting house structures in your life that have built up to the point that it is no longer possible to patch up whatever is wrong.

现在是时候进行全面重建了，必要时需先摧毁那些抗拒改变的旧模式。

It is time for a full scale reconstruction proceeded if necessary by destruction of the old change resistant patterns.

你必须认识到普鲁托式变革的必然性，这种变革深植于事物的本质结构中，无法阻止。

It's extremely important that you recognize the inevitability of Plutonian change which is built into the very structure of things and cannot be prevented.

你不应试图阻止它，因为这是你进化过程中一个必要的阶段。

You should not try to prevent it because it is a necessary stage in your evolution.

你所做的一切只会迫使能量积聚，直到它们爆发，届时不可避免的改变将以灾难性的方式发生。

All that you will do is force the energies to build up until they are explosive, then the inevitable changes will come about disastrously.

你不仅应顺应普鲁托式的毁灭能量，放手让必须离去的一切离开，还应积极参与其后的重建过程，因为这是普鲁托式崩塌后同样不可避免的结果。

Not only should you go along with the Plutonian energy of destruction by letting go of whatever must depart, you should also assist in the rebuilding process that follows for this is the equally inevitable consequence of the Plutonian breakdown.

最后，他说：由于原因尚不完全清楚，冥王星还与社会中的隐秘和颠覆性力量、革命团体、有组织犯罪等有关。

And then finally he says, For reasons that are not entirely understood, Pluto also has to do with secretive and subversive elements of society, revolutionary groups, organized crime and the like.

冥王星的运行可能将这些元素带入你的生活，但在冥王星运行期间允许它们介入通常非常危险。

A Pluto transit may bring such elements into your life, although it's often quite dangerous to allow this during a Pluto transit.

因此，这算是他对整个行运章节的引言，之后他会逐一详细阐述冥王星对不同行星及不同组合的具体行运影响。

So that's kind of his introduction to his whole transit section and then he goes through and delineates specific transits of Pluto to different planets and different combinations.

但在这里，我认为我们可以看到，现代对冥王星的大部分理解已经基本确立了，对吧？

But there, I think we can see sort of the full establishment pretty close of most of the modern take of Pluto for the most part, right?

是的。

Yeah.

那里包含的内容相当多。

It's quite a bit there.

我的意思是，他提到了湿婆，比如毁灭者与创造者。

Mean, he mentioned Shiva, for example, the destroyer and creator.

他本也可以引入迦梨。

He could also have brought in Kali.

你知道，这又涉及了男性与女性的方面。

You know, again, there's a masculine and feminine.

迦梨是死亡与重生的伟大女神，是另一个非常有力的神话或女神形象，体现了冥王星的特质。

And Kali is the great goddess of death and rebirth and is another very potent mythic or goddess figure that expresses Pluto.

为了历史准确性，我应该补充一下：当拉普在1976年出版《行星相位》时，他之前的著作中已有详细描述，比如弗朗西斯·塞奎奥亚和刘易斯·阿克尔已在几本书中完整阐述了所有行星的本命相位与相位运行。

I should just say by way of historical accuracy, when Rapp came out in 1976 with planets in transit, it was a those kind of detailed delineations, he did have before him, you know, Francis Sequoia and Lewis Acker had written full delineations of all the planets and their both natal aspects and transits in a couple of books.

实际上，这些内容以前是单独成册的，比如太阳的相位、海王星的相位、冥王星的相位等等。

Actually, they used to be in booklets individual, the planets, transits of the Sun, transits of Neptune, transits of Pluto, etcetera.

每一本都有自己的小册子。

Each one had its own little booklet.

后来这些内容被合并成了一本名为《预测占星学》的单卷本。

And then later those were combined into a single volume called Predictive Astrology.

当然，他们还有《占星师手册》。

And of course, they had the astrologer's handbook.

罗布认识弗朗西斯·塞奎奥亚，他们都在新英格兰，但她年纪更大，是那个地区的一位导师。

And Rob knew Frances Sequoia, they're both in New England, but she was older and was a teacher there in that area.

而在他背后，还有埃伯廷的影响。

And then he's got Ebertin behind him.

他所阐述的内容中，有很多达恩·鲁德拉的风格特征。

There's a lot of Dane Rudhyar's characterization in what he's setting out there.

此外，还有查尔斯·卡特和20世纪30至40年代的早期马克·埃德蒙·琼斯。

Also, Charles Carter and Mark Edmund Jones are the early Mark Edmund Jones from the 1930s and 40s.

他们对此写了一些内容。

They wrote a bit about it.

但我认为鲁德拉贾尔是最能深入理解其内涵的人。

But Rudrajar, I think, was the one who most was tuning into its depths.

他认识到，正如十八世纪天王星的发现带来了革命、突破、解放和技术进步，以及工业革命这样的重大时期一样。

And he, so he's recognizing how in the same way that the eighteenth century and the discovery of Uranus brought this great period of, you know, revolution and breakthroughs and liberation and and the technological advances and so forth, industrial revolution.

十九世纪海王星的发现则与浪漫主义、超验主义、亚洲神秘主义传统进入西方世界，以及化学特别是工业制药和麻醉剂的诞生密切相关。

The nineteenth century and the discovery of Neptune coincided with many, you know, like romanticism, transcendentalism, the incoming of the Asian mystical traditions into the West, also the birth of chemistry particularly in the industrial pharmaceuticals and anesthetics coming into being at that point.

但总体而言，十九世纪中期的核心焦点是同情心，比如动物福利协会、日内瓦战争公约、红十字会、护理职业的兴起。

But overall, the great focus in the mid nineteenth century on compassion, know, the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, the Geneva War Conventions, the Red Cross, the nursing profession.

许多儿童劳动法的出台，以及查尔斯·狄更斯通过小说传递出更具同理心和社会关怀的视角。

Many forms of the child labor laws, Charles Dickens bringing in such a more empathic socially compassionate view through his novels.

这些都是当时涌现的深刻海王星现象。

Those are all deep Neptunian phenomena that were coming in at that point.

当冥王星在1930年被发现时，那正是持续三十年的战争时期——即第一次世界大战和第二次世界大战——的中间点。

And when Pluto comes in 1930, I mean, you look at the That's the midpoint of the thirty year period of the thirty years war basically that encompass World War I and World War II.

如果你看看往前十五年到往后十五年，你就基本看到了两次世界大战，以及原子弹的出现。

If you look at fifteen years before to fifteen years after, you've basically got both World Wars, you've got the coming of the atomic bomb.

我想我在《宇宙与心灵》里写过一小段

I think I wrote up in Cosmos and Psyche a little

是的，如果你愿意，这段话就由你来读吧。

Yeah, here's the passage if you want to go ahead and do the honors of reading it.

当然。

Oh, sure.

这正好是我们谈论的冥王星被发现的时期。

This is right during that period that we're talking about Pluto's discovered.

你看到了原子的分裂、核能的释放、现代工业文明和军事力量的巨大力量提升，以及法西斯主义和其他群众运动的兴起。

You've got the splitting of the atom, the unleashing of nuclear power, the titanic technological empowerment of modern industrial civilization and military force, the rise of fascism and other mass movements.

还记得我提到过的那种群体能量或群众运动吗？

Remember I talked about that kind of mob energy or mass movements?

想想纳粹举行的纽伦堡集会，规模巨大。

Think about the Nuremberg rallies that the Nazis held, just massive.

这太普鲁托了。

That's so plutonic.

是的，那里还有其他事情在发生，比如火星、土星等等。

Yes, there's other things going on there too, Mars, Saturn, etcetera.

但普鲁托的影响如此明显。

But the Plutonic was so visible.

进化论和精神分析学广泛的文化影响，它们关注生物本能，也就是深层的、潜藏在文明表层之下的东西。

The widespread cultural influence of evolutionary theory and psychoanalysis with their focus on the biological instincts, you know, at depth quality, what's below the surface of the veneer of civilization.

表层之下就是普鲁托，它也是冥界。回到罗布·汉德的观点，他说人们还不太清楚为什么这会与犯罪地下世界之类的事物相关。

What's below is the Plutonic which is also the underworld, which getting back to Rob Hand's point, he says it's not quite understood why this has to do with the criminal underworld and things like that.

但普鲁托就是冥界。

But Pluto is the underworld.

所以它是犯罪地下世界、性地下世界、城市地下世界、心理地下世界，以及神话中的冥界。

So it's the criminal underworld, it's the sexual underworld, the urban underworld, the psychological underworld, and the mythic underworld.

但回到我在《宇宙与心灵》中的描述：社会风俗和艺术中性与情欲表达的增强。

But getting back to my description from Cosmos and Psyche, increased sexual and erotic expression in social mores in the arts.

所以普鲁托的能量代表了所有的本能。

So the Plutonic is all the instincts.

它包括攻击性、生存本能、生殖本能、性能量、破坏性能量，以及对犯罪地下世界的强烈关注。

It's aggression, it's survival instincts, it's reproductive instincts, sexual energies, destructive energies, intensified activity and public awareness of the criminal underworld.

想想20世纪30年代，那时犯罪题材的黑帮电影变得非常流行。

Think about the '30s with all the criminal, the gangster movies that became very prominent at that point.

本能驱动的大规模暴力和灾难性历史事件明显加剧，如世界大战、大屠杀、核毁灭的威胁以及生态破坏。

Tangible intensification of instinctually driven mass violence and catastrophic historical developments evident in the world wars, the holocaust, the threat of nuclear annihilation, and ecological devastation.

如果像鲁贾尔那样从宏观视角来看，这确实是二十世纪围绕冥王星发现而出现的现象。

And here if you take the broad view as Rujar did that it's a twentieth century phenomenon surrounding the discovery of Pluto.

此外，还可以提到二十世纪生活中政治化和权力斗争的加剧、深度心理学转化与宣泄形式的发展，以及科学界将整个宇宙视为从原始火球到持续演化的庞大进化现象的认同。

Here also can be mentioned the intensive intensified politicization and power struggles characteristic of twentieth century life, the development of powerful forms of depth psychological transformation and catharsis, and the scientific recognition of the entire cosmos as a vast evolutionary phenomenon from the primordial fireball to the still evolving present.

因此，在许多方面，甚至我们对宇宙的认知也是如此——就在冥王星被发现前的几年里，天文学家通过哈洛·沙普利和哈勃的工作，认识到宇宙正在膨胀、浩瀚无垠，包含众多星系，并且处于演化之中。

So in in many ways, even the even our view of the cosmos is it's right then in just a couple of years before Pluto is discovered that astronomers particularly through the work of Harlow Shapley and Hubble, and they're recognizing that the cosmos is expanding and is huge as many galaxies and is evolving.

这与科学革命所确立的更静态的牛顿式宇宙观截然不同，更加具有普鲁托的特质。

It's a whole different view that comes in compared to the more static Newtonian universe that the scientific revolution had established, much more plutonic.

所以这些就是我认为鲁查尔所捕捉到的关联，然后它们得以展开。

So those are the correlations that I think Ruchar is picking up on and then they get played out.

但罗布·汉德、塞奎奥亚·纳克尔和埃伯廷开始区分冥王星与太阳、冥王星与月亮、冥王星与其他行星、冥王星与不同星座和宫位的关系。

But Rob Hand and Sequoia Nacker and Ebertin, they're starting to differentiate like Pluto with the Sun, Pluto with Moon, Pluto with the different planets, Pluto with different signs and houses.

这些是我们对冥王星理解的重要进展。

And those are very important advances in our understanding of Pluto.

对。

Right.

所以这最终把我们带到了关于发现时期的一些事件，我们稍后会回过头来讨论，但我只是想在深入探讨这些细节之前提供一些背景。

So that brings us eventually and we'll circle back to some of the things that occurred around the time of the discovery, but I just wanted to provide some context before we go into discussing those in detail.

你接下来这段话，基本上是对冥王星意义的总体概括，说明了冥王星原型的内涵。

Your next passage which is when you summarized basically the significations of Pluto very broadly about what the archetype of Pluto is.

你愿意读一下这段话吗？

Do you feel like reading this passage?

冥王星与原始力量、深度和强度的原则相关，它促使、赋予力量并强化其所触及的一切，有时会达到压倒性且灾难性的极端。

So Pluto is associated with the principle of elemental power, depth, and intensity with that which compels, empowers, and intensifies whatever it touches, sometimes to overwhelming and catastrophic extremes.

它与原始的本能相关，包括性欲与攻击性、破坏与再生、火山般与宣泄性的力量，具有消除与转化的特性，不断演化，涉及出生、性与死亡的生物过程，以及生死循环。

It's associated with the primordial instincts, libidinal and aggressive, destructive and regenerative, volcanic and cathartic, eliminative, transformative, ever evolving, with the biological processes of birth, sex, and death, the cycle of death and rebirth.

让我在这里稍作停顿。

Let me just take a bracket here.

我们通常认为土星与死亡和事物的终结有关。

We we think of Saturn as related to death and the endings of things.

而冥王星则是死亡与重生。

Well, Pluto is death and rebirth.

它包含了整个循环。

It's got the whole cycle in it.

事实上，它涵盖了出生、性、死亡与重生。

And and in fact, it goes birth, sex, and death, and rebirth.

它是生命与死亡的完整奥罗波罗斯循环。

It's the whole big Ouroboros cycle of life and death.

回到《宇宙与灵魂》中的这段描述，它与动荡、崩溃、衰败和滋养相关。

Getting back to the description here from Cosmos and Psyche, it's associated with upheaval, breakdown, decay, and fertilization.

剧烈的净化性释放，积压能量的净化之火。

Violent purgatorial discharge of pent up energies, purifying fire.

这正是斯坦·格罗夫所称的‘火疗’，一种强大的体验式疗法，你经历火疗时，会从内心深处爆发性地释放出巨大的能量，以一种非破坏性的方式释放压抑的能量，让你真正接触到生命之力，从而获得疗愈。

This is what Stan Groff calls pyrocatharsis, that part of a very powerful experiential therapy where you go through pyrocatharsis where there's a great release in a kind of fiery burst from the depths that releases the repressed energies from one in a way that is not destructive but actually puts you in touch with the life force and is healing.

生死攸关的极端情境、权力斗争，一切宏伟、强大而浩大的事物。

Situations of life and death extremes, power struggles, all that is titanic, potent, and massive.

冥王星代表所有意义上的地下世界和地底：元素性的、地质性的，如地震；本能的、政治的、社会的、性的、都市的、犯罪的、神话的、恶魔般的。

Pluto represents the underworld and underground in all senses, elemental, geological like an earthquake, instinctual, political, social, sexual, urban, criminal, mythological, demonic.

它是潜藏于事物表象之下、自我之下、社会规范与文明表层之下、地球表面之下的黑暗、神秘、禁忌且常常令人恐惧的现实，会周期性地以破坏性和转化性的力量爆发出来。

It is the dark, mysterious, taboo, and often terrifying reality that lurks beneath the surface of things, beneath the ego, societal conventions, and the veneer of civilization, beneath the surface of the Earth, that is periodically unleashed with destructive and transformative force.

冥王星推动、燃烧、吞噬、转化、复活。

Pluto impels, burns, consumes, transfigures, resurrects.

从神话和宗教的角度看，它与所有关于下降与转化的神话相关，也与所有毁灭与再生、死亡与重生的神祇相关：狄俄尼索斯、哈迪斯与珀耳塞福涅、潘、美杜莎、莉莉丝、伊南娜、伊西斯与奥西里斯、火山女神佩莱、奎策尔科亚特尔、蛇的力量、昆达利尼、湿婆、迦梨、夏克提。

In mythic and religious terms, it is associated with all myths of descent and transformation, and with all deities of destruction and regeneration, death and rebirth: Dionysus, Hades and Persephone Pan Medusa, Lilith, Inanna Isis and Osiris, the volcano goddess Pele, Quetzalcoatl, the serpent power, Kundalini, Shiva, Kali, Shakti.

因此，当罗伯特·汉德将冥王星与湿婆联系起来时，我觉得这非常有帮助。

So think it was quite helpful when Robert Hand made the connection to Shiva with Pluto.

通过这样做，它帮助我们认识到，这些内容涉及多种不同的文化神话，也包含女性层面，而不仅仅是男性层面，我们应该将其纳入考虑。

And in doing so, it helps us recognize that these goes to many different cultural mythologies and also feminine, not just masculine that we should include.

在某些方面，冥王星原型的某些元素具有特别女性化的特质。

And in certain ways, certain elements of the Pluto archetype have a particularly feminine quality.

那位就是女神本身。

The goddess that is the goddess.

只要有诞生，就必然有女神在场。

If you have birth, you have a goddess present.

你经历了一次诞生。

You have a birth.

是母性的能量使诞生成为可能。

You have a mother energy is what makes birth possible.

这也涉及分娩过程中的原始能量，任何经历过分娩的母亲都能体会到。

And that also involves the kind of elemental energies of the birth process as any mother who has given birth could say.

这些是极其强大的能量，它们掌控着身体，将婴儿从子宫中推出，带到这个世界。

It's just these are titanic energies that take over the body to bring forth the the infant from the womb out into the world.

让我告诉你关于罗布的一件事。

Let me just tell you one thing about Rob.

有一天，我在七十年代《行星相位》刚出版时邀请罗布来埃塞伦研究所，因为那时我是项目主管。

One day I I invited Rob to come to, Esselen Institute back in the seventies right after Planets in Transit came out because I was director of programs there.

斯坦·格罗夫和我都在看到罗布的书出版后，直到那时，我们一直更多地使用埃伯廷、塞奎奥亚和阿克尔的研究成果。

Both Stan Groff and I were When we saw Rob's book come out, up until that point, we'd been using more Ebertin and Sequoia and Acker's work.

因此，罗布、莉兹·格林和史蒂文·阿罗约几乎在同一时间推出了他们的著作。

And so Rob along with Liz Green and Steven Arroyo about the same time were coming out with their works.

但罗布的系统性工作确实非同寻常。

But Rob's systematic work was quite something.

你知道，他写那本书的时候，海王星一直影响着他；他告诉我，他当时处于一种近乎催眠的状态，几乎像是在通灵。

And, you know, he had Neptune The whole time he wrote that book, he was like He told me he was in a kind of almost like hypnotic state of, almost like channeling.

事后回想起来，他几乎记不清自己是如何有意识地写完这本书的。

He could hardly remember in retrospect consciously writing it.

当时海王星正在经过他的太阳、金星和水星合相。

Neptune was transiting his Sun Venus Mercury conjunction.

他的海王星与太阳、金星和水星合相，而且正好与他的天王星和土星相对。

He had So Neptune was conjoined Sun Venus and Mercury, in his case opposes both his Uranus and Saturn.

所以他出生时天王星和土星合相，位于太阳、水星和金星的对宫，他出生于1942年。

So he's got a Uranus Saturn conjunction born 1942 opposite Sun and Mercury and Venus.

是的，你在那里可以看到它。

Yeah, you see it there with the

是的，这是他的星盘。

Yeah, here's his chart.

他的太阳位于射手座13度，水星位于15度，金星位于17度射手座。

So he has Sun at 13 Sagittarius, Mercury at 15, and Venus at 17 Sagittarius.

在七十年代中后期，海王星正好经过射手座的这些点。

And in the mid to late seventies, Neptune was transiting right through all of those points in Sagittarius.

他基本上处于一种通灵状态。

He was basically in this kind of trans.

他来埃萨伦的时候，我请了他好几次，能请到他真是太好了。

When he came to Esalen, I had him come a number of times, so it was great to have him.

他常常坐在客厅里，摆出一种类似佛陀的姿势。

And he'd sit there in the living room in a kind of Buddha pose.

他会把双腿盘成莲花坐，因为那时候我们都坐在垫子上。

He'd put his legs into a lotus position because we all were on cushions in those days.

埃萨伦的会议室里根本没有椅子。

There were no chairs in the meeting rooms at Esselen.

那是在大房子的客厅里。

And it was in the big house living room.

他几乎处于一种恍惚状态，谈论着每个行星的含义、每个宫位、每个星座等等。

And he almost in a kind of trance state be talking about what each of the planets meant, what each of the houses, each of the signs, etcetera.

但我记得，由于斯坦·格罗夫和我那时在埃萨伦全力进行死亡与重生过程、LSD疗法以及各种强有力的经验性治疗，他称我们为木星冥王星俱乐部。

But I remember he was particularly Because Stan Groff and I were doing all this work with the death rebirth process, LSD therapy, and powerful forms of experiential therapy there at Esselen, he called us the Jupiter Pluto club.

特别值得注意的是，斯坦和我都具备这种特质，而他生动地描述了自我消解与转化的过程——在讨论中，他从太阳和月亮开始，逐步向外阐述水星、金星、火星在个体心理发展中的作用，而这正是他特别关注的焦点。

But what was particularly, because both Stan and I had that, but he quite memorably described the process of ego death and transformation in terms of moving in his discussion of when he would describe each of the planets starting from the Sun and Moon moving out through Mercury's role and Venus' role and Mars' role in the psychological development of the individual which is what he was particularly focused on.

当他谈到土星——现实原则时，这也正是我们用来界定自我身份的自我结构。

And then when he got to Saturn's the reality principle, it's also the ego structure that we kind of define our identity according to.

他说，但当你接触到超个人行星——天王星、海王星和冥王星时，它们会挑战你生活中自我结构与现实结构。

And he said, But then when you get to the transpersonal planets, Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto, that challenges the ego structure and the reality structure of your life.

他形容天王星会打破这种结构，它闯入并扰乱它，就像打破冰层一样。

And the way he put it was Uranus breaks that, it comes in and kind of disrupts it, breaks it like breaking the ice so to speak.

然后海王星将其溶解，最后冥王星出手给予致命一击。

And then Neptune dissolves it and then Pluto comes in for the kill.

他是这样生动地描述的。

That's how he memorably put it.

在描述经历过强烈生死重生体验的人时，斯坦·格罗夫在他的书中有一段精彩的描述：当普鲁托能量完全涌入时，你首先会经历所有的火性宣泄和炽热能量，泰坦式的毁灭力量涌现，接着是性欲的、狂欢的、攻击性的，以及恶魔般的能量，甚至排泄相关的能量也会出现。

Describing people who've gone through powerful death rebirth experiences, Stan Groff has a great description of it in one of his books where there's this just when the Plutonic energy fully comes in and first you're working through all the pyro catharsis and the fiery energies, the Titanic destructive powers coming through one and the sexual, orgiastic, the aggressive, then demonic energies can come through and scatological, etcetera.

这是一场真正的冥府之旅。

It's a real journey through the underworld.

但接着，他说，最后的阶段涉及一种彻底的湮灭。

But then there's this, he said the last stages involve a kind of annihilation.

他说，许多人经历的是，首先出现的是女性原则，要求你完全臣服于她全部的力量与令人恐惧的特质。

And he said, Many people experience He said, First colleague comes in and requires total surrender to the feminine principle in all her power and terrifying quality.

在那种顺从之后，他说，随后湿婆神降临，彻底完成最后的毁灭，摧毁剩下的一切自我。

And then with that surrender, he then said, And then Shiva comes in and just completely does the final destruction like destroying the ego, what's left.

他说，在那一刻，你会突然敞开，看到无边无际的宇宙神祇群像，金色的灵性疗愈之光如潮水般涌入，并持续不断地流淌。

And he said then at that moment, there's this kind of opening up to the incredible grandeur of the cosmic pantheon of gods and goddesses as far as you can see and kind of the golden light of spiritual healing that just can kind of pour in at that moment and go on and on from there.

当我经历过类似的事情时，正是在那金色的白光从头顶涌入的时刻，占星学深深进入了我的生命，同时带来了许多其他洞见——传记性的、心理层面的等等。

When I had an experience along that line, that was actually when astrology deeply came in through that kind of golden white light coming in through the top of my head and many other insights, biographical, psychological and so forth.

但那时，我突然意识到行星原型是如何运作的，它们如何在我们的生活中展现自身，行运的力量、出生星盘的意义，以及面对死亡本身，所有这些都在那一刻涌现在我面前。

But the recognition of how suddenly how the planetary archetypes, how they worked, how they were expressing themselves in our lives, the power of transits, the significance of the birth chart and one's own birth as well as facing death, all those things were kind of coming in at that time.

因此，如今许多人正在经历的这种深层内在探索，对于打破那种狭隘的世界观极为有益——在这种世界观中，人们认为自己生活在一个随机的物质宇宙里，而占星学不过是我想说的迷信金标准。

So this deep inner journeying that so many people are engaging now is so helpful in breaking out of the constricted worldview in which you think that you live in a kind of random materialistic universe with astrology as the gold standard of superstition as I like to call it.

而突然间，你意识到自己生活在一个充满无尽深度、道德与美学壮丽的宇宙中，我们正参与着一个通过我们自身展开的伟大奥秘。

And instead suddenly realizing that you live in an insult cosmos of incredible depth and moral and aesthetic majesty and that we're participating in a great mystery that's unfolding through us.

而冥王星在其中扮演着重要的角色。

And Pluto plays a big role in that.

因此，冥王星可以从仅仅被视为一种可怕的权力意志或纯粹破坏性的力量，转变为真正理解其变革与救赎的品质。

So that's why Pluto can go from being solely seen as this terrifying will to power or something that's just purely destructive and to really grasp its transformational and redemptive quality.

但这是一个危险的原则。

But it is a dangerous principle.

这几乎就像是危险的原则本身。

It's almost like the principle of danger.

因此，指导者、导师、教师、智慧的长者、治疗师、疗愈者、萨满们至关重要，他们能以引导的方式帮助人们穿越这段深入冥界的旅程。

Takes this So is where guidance, mentors, teachers, wise elders, therapists, healers, shamans are so important to help navigate that guide, navigate in a guiding way that that deep descent into the underworld.

比如，荣格在这方面有着丰富的智慧。

So people like like Jung, for example, has a lot of wisdom on this.

斯坦·格罗夫在这方面也拥有深刻的洞见。

Stan Gropp has a lot of wisdom on it.

托尔金笔下的甘道夫在《指环王》中扮演了这样的角色，引导弗罗多面对他本不愿承受的动荡时代。

Tolkien had Gandalf playing that role for Frodo engaging a life that Frodo wished that he hadn't been born to deal with such a fraught time as he was born into.

我的女儿贝卡是一位托尔金学者，她特别向我指出了那段优美的文字——当弗罗多说：‘我希望自己没有生在这样一个时代。’

And my daughter Becca who's a Tolkien scholar kind of particularly called to my attention that beautiful passage where when Frodo says, I wish I wasn't born at such a time.

甘道夫则说，我这里是在转述。

And Gandalf says like, I'm paraphrasing.

甘道夫说，我们没有人希望生在这样的时代，但关键在于，当我们身处这样的时代时，我们该如何应对。

Gandalf says, none of us wish to be born at such a time, but it's what we do when we find ourselves in such a time, then it's how we respond to it.

正是我们在这种境遇中的所作所为，才是一切的关键。

It's what we do in this circumstance that is where it's all at.

正是在这一刻，我们才成为灵魂。

That's we become a soul.

正是在这里，我们才形成自我认同。

That's where we become an identity.

即使在你深入深渊、感到自我认同被摧毁的时刻，你也必须忠于自己灵魂中的英雄。

This is where you kind of have to be true to the hero in your own soul even at the very moment that you're going into the depths and feeling your identity being devastated.

这正是那种转变之旅中的英雄主义所在。

That's part of the heroism of that transformational journey.

所以，无论如何，我们都有引导者和长者，他们对于应对这些极其强大的能量至关重要，而这些能量如今在全球层面可能比以往任何时候都更活跃，因为我们既面临着威权主义和暴力民粹主义的兴起，也面临着世界上破坏性极强的巨大权力斗争，这与冥王星在20世纪30年代被发现时的时期非常相似。

So anyway, we have guides, we have elders, that are very, important for dealing with these extremely powerful energies which probably are as activated now on a global level as ever because we both have the rise of authoritarianism and violent populism, massive power struggles in the world in quite destructive ways, very similar to the period when Pluto was discovered in the '30s.

是的。

Yeah.

让我们深入探讨这一点，因为最近我一直在思考这个问题，尤其是美国今年经历了首次精确的冥王星回归，共有三次精确交汇。

Let's actually dwell on that point because that's something I've been thinking about a lot recently with The United States experiencing its first exact Pluto return this year with three exact hits.

但毫无疑问，过去几年冥王星一直位于摩羯座的后期阶段，因此早已接近这一节点。

But certainly it's been pretty close to that for several years now as Pluto's been moving through the later stages of Capricorn.

但每当想到占星师们长期以来使用的一个原则时，我总是印象深刻：当发现一颗新的行星时，当时世界发生的某些标志性事件会揭示这颗行星的本质。

But one of the things that really always sticks out to me when we think of that principle that astrologers have been using for a while now that when a new planetary body is discovered that some of the events happening in the world at that time that are defining world events will give you some insight into the nature of that planet.

1930年发现冥王星时，世界正经历着什么？其中最突出的一点是法西斯主义的兴起——不仅在欧洲，这种趋势此前已酝酿一段时间，而在1930年代突然爆发，还被输出到世界其他地区，许多国家开始模仿法西斯主义。

Discovering Pluto in 1930 and just what was happening in the world in the 1930s, one of the things that always jumps out is the rise of fascism not just in Europe which had been building up for a little while up to that point, the sort of explosion of it in Europe, but also how that kind of got exported to different parts of the world where fascism started being imitated in different countries.

也许你能解释一下这一点，或者对人们说明它的含义？因为人们常会顺带提到这一点，仿佛这是显而易见的，但实际上，只有历史学家或研究那个时代的人才会真正意识到它的震撼性。

And maybe if you could explain that point or what that means to people a little bit because I think this is often mentioned as a note in passing like an obvious thing, but it's really only to historians or people that study the period that that becomes a really striking point.

而这个震撼性的要点是

And the striking point

从某种意义上说，你如何定义法西斯主义？1930年代法西斯主义的兴起有何独特之处？它与冥王星之间有何关联？这能告诉我们关于冥王星的什么？

In the sense of how do you define fascism and what was unique about the emergence of fascism in the 1930s in its relationship to Pluto or what can that tell us about Pluto?

没错。

Right.

是的，这种对集体权力的激活

Yeah, that activation of mass

人们认同集体，压抑个体性，甚至所谓的领导者、元首、强人、独裁者，无论是墨索里尼、希特勒还是斯大林。

will to power, people identifying with a collective suppressing their individuality and even the so called you know, leader, fuhrer, the strong man, the dictator, whether it was Mussolini or Hitler or Stalin.

心理历史学家劳埃德·德莫西和斯坦·格罗夫经常使用这样一个说法：你知道，领导这种法西斯运动的强人、独裁者，实际上在内心深处是个渺小的人，却拥有一种巨大的补偿性人格。

The psycho historian Lloyd Demos and Stan Groff often use the phrase that, you know, the strong man dictator tyrant who's leading this fascist movement, not really underneath, such They're a small person in certain ways with kind of a titanic compensatory persona.

他说，真正让他们如此强大的原因在于，他们是集体潜意识的通道。

And he said, Really, what makes them so powerful is the fact that they're channels of the collective id.

劳埃德·德莫西和斯坦·格罗夫使用的术语是，他们是集体心理阴影爆发时的垃圾清道夫。

And the term that both Lloyd Demaus and Stan Groff uses that they're garbage collectors of the collective psyche of the shadow that is erupting.

我的意思是，美国刚刚经历了一个大约四年、甚至更接近五年的时期，仿佛美国的灵魂像珀耳塞福涅一样被哈迪斯、被冥界吞噬了。

I mean, America, The United States has just had, just went through a four year period, really kind of more like five years where it's almost as if the soul of America like Persephone got swallowed by Hades, you know, by the underworld.

我们突然发现自己置身于一个充满暴力、庞大、史诗般且常常是犯罪性的权力意志的世界中。

And we suddenly found ourselves in a in a kind of world in which a kind of violent massive titanic and often criminal will to power was at work.

而代表或推动这种力量的人，几乎都代表着美国的阴影面，或男性气质的阴影面、财富的阴影面、白人性的阴影面等等。

And the people representing it or forwarding it often, they almost represented the shadow version of the American or the shadow version of what it would be to be male or shadow version of wealth or the shadow version of whiteness and so forth.

当时，美国的星盘在2016年正经历冥王星的行运。

And The United States birth chart at that point was being transited 2016.

你知道，冥王星正好与太阳形成对冲。

You know, you got Pluto was opposite the Sun.

而现在，冥王星正在回归，而且已经开始了。

And then now Pluto's returning now and has been.

我的意思是，冥王星回归就像土星回归一样，是一次漫长而重大的行运。

I mean, the Pluto return like a Saturn return is a big long transit.

它并不仅仅在精确对位的那一年才产生影响。

It doesn't just activate, you know, the year that it's exact.

这标志着一个长达248年的巨大周期的终结。

This is the end of a of an enormous two hundred forty eight year cycle.

即使在精确对位前的十到十五度范围内，它就已经在酝酿，就像个人星盘中的土星回归一样。

And even as it gets to within, you know, ten fifteen degrees before exact, it's it's cooking, much as a Saturn return does, in a personal chart.

土星回归并不仅仅在你29岁那年才发生。

Saturn return doesn't just happen when you're 29.

从28岁到30岁，你可以基本确定，从你20岁生日到30岁生日这段时间。

It you know, from 28 to 30, you can pretty much depend from your 20 birthday to your 30 birthday.

这三年会非常典型地体现土星回归的特征。

Those three years are gonna be pretty characteristic of a Saturn return.

而冥王星回归在此期间已经逐渐逼近。

And the Pluto return has been approached here.

你可以看到，现在它距离精确对分仅差一度左右。

You can see how tight it is right now just like one degree from exact.

在此之前，大约五年前，冥王星曾与太阳形成对分相。

And prior to that, like back five years ago, Pluto was opposite Sun.

当你是一个非常强大的太阳个体，同时具有冥王星特质时，往往会出现冥王星对太阳的能量影响，这在当前我们所关注的美国星盘中表现得尤为明显。

And you often get Pluto opposite Sun energy when you are, like a very powerful solar individual, with plutonic qualities will kind of massively influence the, In this case, The United States, which is the Whose birth chart we're we're looking at that where Pluto's transiting it.

当然，那时特朗普正是走下自动扶梯，开始他权力之路的时刻。

And of course, that's when Trump became, came down the escalator and started his, his ascent to power.

而如今我们正深陷冥王星回归之中，这意味着这不仅仅是一个特朗普现象，而是一个美国现象。

And now we're deeply in the Pluto return, which suggests, I mean, this isn't just a Trumpian phenomenon, it's an American phenomenon.

想想看，在过去几年里，美国是如何深陷自身阴影的底层，直面我们有多么种族主义，却不愿承认、不愿正视。

Just think about the degree to which The United States has, during these last few years, really been entering into the underworld of its own shadow, like facing this is how racist we've been and not not owning it, not recognizing.

看看我们自始至终如何对待原住民，从西部大扩张、天定命运等等开始。

This is how we've treated Native Americans since, know, the beginning, the the the great expansion of the West, the manifest destiny and so forth.

从那些原本就在这里的人的角度来看一看。

This is look at it from the other side of the people that were here.

那会是什么样子？

How does that look?

对于非裔美国人来说，美国的解放实验究竟有多解放？他们曾为世界大战而战，回国后却遭遇私刑、被剥夺选举权、无法谋生、不被允许居住在许多社区等等。

How emancipatory is the American experiment for African Americans, blacks who fought in a world war and then come back to lynchings and and disenfranchisement and not being able to make a living and not being allowed to live in many neighborhoods and so forth.

这仅仅是阴影面，冥王星必须在许多不同层面上被正视。

It's just, the shadow side, the Pluto is having to be faced at many different levels.

面对阴影是精神成长和心理转化中极其重要的一部分，而我们现在正不得不去做。

The facing of the shadow is an extremely important part of a spiritual growth and of a psychological transformation, and we're having to do it right now.

但任何强大的冥王星运行，其部分特征就是经历毁灭、失去、转化，以及净化那些我们不愿直视的、被压抑的阴影部分。

But part of a Pluto return of any powerful Pluto transit is a kind of going through a destruction, going through a loss, a transformation, kind of purgation of detritus, of the refuse, the suppressed shadowy parts of ourselves that we don't wanna look at.

必须将它带入意识层面，然后释放，但在能释放之前，它必须先被意识到。

It has to be brought to the surface and then released, but it has to come to consciousness before it can be released.

因此，尽管这一过程如此痛苦，但此刻对美国潜在的重生至关重要，因为美国也有其崇高的一面。

That's why this time, as painful as it is, is so important for the potential of a rebirth of of The United States, which has a noble side.

像马丁·路德·金这样的人，深深相信一个尚未实现的美国理想。

Somebody like Martin Luther King deeply deeply believed in an American ideal, that hadn't been fulfilled.

他汲取了林肯、弗雷德里克·道格拉斯、索杰纳·特鲁思和哈丽特·塔布曼等前人的精神力量。

And he's drawing on the on on on Lincoln, before him and on Frederick Douglass and so forth and Sojourner Truth and Harriet Tubman.

这些都蕴含在美国这一勇敢实验中的可能性，唯有经历这场普鲁托式的死亡与重生的炼狱、这场普鲁托式的地下转化之境，才能实现。

These are potentials within the American brave experiment that can only be realized through going through this plutonic crucible of death and rebirth, this plutonic underworld of transformation.

而重生正是这样发生的。

And that's how rebirth can take place.

你必须经历深沉的黑夜航海之旅。

You have to go through the deep night sea journey.

你必须赌上一切。

You to risk everything.

你必须先经历自身化为灰烬的过程，才能通过生命过程的神秘恩典获得重生。

You have to experience yourself burning to ashes before you can be revivified through the mysterious grace of the life process.

这就是为什么希腊人我认为非常准确地认识到，普鲁托和哈迪斯也是狄俄尼索斯的别名。

This is why the Greeks recognize I think quite accurately that Pluto, Hades were another name for were also united with Dionysus.

狄俄尼索斯、普鲁托、哈迪斯是同一神祇的三个名称。

That Dionysus, Pluto, Hades were three names for the same god.

赫拉克利特，这位伟大的希腊哲学家，还有剧作家欧里庇得斯，都曾说过这一点。

Heraclitus said this, the great the the great Greek philosopher, but also Euripides the playwright.

这揭示了生命与死亡、消亡与重生如何奇妙地交织在一起，因为狄俄尼索斯虽然是生命的神，却也经历肢解。

And this points out how life and death, dying and rebirth are curiously interlinked because Dionysus is so much the god of life even as he is the one who goes through dismemberment.

而冥界之神普鲁托和哈迪斯，以及冥界本身，也深深与赐予生命相连，尽管他们同时也是吞噬我们的死亡之力。

And Pluto, Hades, the god of the underworld and the being of the underworld itself, they are also deeply tied to the giving of life even as they are what swallow us in death.

这些观念在印度文化对普鲁托原则的表达中得到了强烈体现，例如卡莉、湿婆、昆达利尼蛇能和夏克提能量。

And these are in turn conveyed so powerfully in the Indian, renderings of of the Plutonic principle in in Kali, in Shiva, in the Kundalini serpent energy and in the Shakti energy.

所以我认为，我们拥有这些资源。

So I think we have resources.

问题是，我们是否拥有智慧传统。

The question is whether And we have wisdom traditions.

我们还有各种仪式方法，可以帮助我们经历这些荒野中的灵性追寻等等。

And we have ritual means by which that are available to us to go through these wilderness vision quests and so forth.

许多人手中握着通往转变的钥匙，但我们亟需集体觉醒，充分意识到这些。

So many people are carrying keys to our transformation, but we need to have the collective wake up to these enough.

美国目前正在经历冥王星回归，而我们整体上也正经历着强大的冥王星相位，比如天王星对冥王星的刑相，土星与冥王星的合相。

And it's quite possible that the Pluto return that The US is going through and the very powerful Pluto transits that we've been going through generally, world transits, Uranus square Pluto, the Saturn conjunct Pluto.

我们现在才刚刚开始进入天王星与冥王星的三分相，时间在二十年代后期，前景相当乐观。

Now we're just starting to move into the trine of Uranus to Pluto later into the twenties, quite promising.

我认为，随着冥王星能量的极大增强，作为文明、作为物种，我们很可能被迫经历死亡，才能真正认识自己。

There's a real possibility, I think, with this great intensification of plutonic energy that we will be obliged as a civilization, as a species to undergo the dying in order to realize ourselves.

歌德说：‘若你不了解这个深奥的秘密——死去并重生，你便只是这黑暗大地上的过客。’

Goethe said, until you know this deep secret, die and become, you will be a stranger on this dark Earth.

在某种程度上，文明一直是对这片黑暗大地的陌生人。

And in some ways, civilization has been a stranger on this dark Earth.

人类一直将自己与自然割裂开来，仿佛自然是要被征服、控制、剥削和利用的资源。

It has it has been separated from, alienated from nature as if that was something to conquer and control, exploit, understand in order to, use its resources.

在此过程中，我们压抑了普鲁托的能量，它仿佛没有被邀请参加生日派对，最终以复仇的姿态回归，我们正经历着全球气候变化及其他种种表现——被压抑之物的回归。

And in doing so, has it's suppressed the plutonic nature which was not invited to the birthday party as it were and it becomes the being who comes back with a vengeance which we're experiencing with global climate change and many other expressions of it, the return of the repressed.

我们唯有意识到自己属于地球共同体，体认其丰富性，并明白我们的物种与文明只是更大整体中的一部分，才能真正觉醒。

And the only way we will wake up to the full beauty and power of the Earth community that we belong to and its richness and realizing that our species and our civilization are a part of something much bigger that we're participating in.

我们唯有通过死亡与重生，才能摆脱作为这黑暗大地上的异乡人的状态，真正扎根于地球与宇宙的深处。

The only way we'll wake up out of our strangerhood to the dark Earth is through dying and then becoming, then actualizing our our deeper roots in in in the Earth and in the cosmos.

这不是一个随机、机械、物质主义且无意义的宇宙，而是一个充满智慧与深刻灵性奥秘的宇宙。

And not a random mechanistic materialistic meaningless cosmos, but an unsolved one of great intelligence and great spiritual mystery.

因此，这就是我看待普鲁托之谜的方式——无论是在出生星盘中、个人星象转盘中，还是在世界星象中，乃至我们所讨论的美国普鲁托回归，它在世界历史中扮演着至关重要的角色。

So that's kind of how I see the mystery of Pluto, whether it's in birth charts or in personal transits or in world transits or what we're talking about as well, the Pluto return for The United States, which plays such a crucial role in world history.

即便美国在道德等方面经历了诸多失败，世人仍视美国的实验为一项重要的尝试。

At this point, the American experiment is still looked to as an important one by people around the world even as we have gone through such failures morally and so forth.

我认为，这正是普鲁托要我们觉察的核心：唯有如此，我们才能更明智、更富同情心地参与地球与宇宙的生命。

I think this is the essence of what I think Pluto is asking us to be aware of to be able to live a more skillful, compassionate participatory life in the life of the Earth and the cosmos.

对。

Right.

因此，冥王星或冥王星行运最核心的含义之一，或许是挖掘出个人历史中那些阴暗的部分，然后经历与之对抗、承认并以某种方式应对的挣扎。

So perhaps one of the main core significations of Pluto or that seems to come with Pluto transits is the dredging up of the darker parts of one's history and then the subsequent struggle to confront and recognize them and deal with them in some way.

没错。

That's right.

这种现象可能发生在你所提到的集体层面，也可能在某些个人情境中发生。

Can happen either collectively in the instance that you're talking about or personally in some instances.

二十世纪深度心理学的兴起，这一点与冥王星密切相关，这正是其中一个有趣之处。

And that's one of the interesting things about the emergence of Depth psychology in the twentieth century that might be very much relevant to Pluto as well.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，但凡涉及深度层面，'深'这个词就与冥王星息息相关。

I think whenever you have a depth dimension, deep is a Pluto word.

而木星、天王星，则属于高远的层面。

And Jupiter, Uranus, they're high.

它们趋向于高处。

They move towards the heights.

甚至海王星，以其对天界、神圣的强调，也具有向上、向外的冲动，各自以独特的方式。

Even Neptune with its emphasis towards the celestial, the heavenly, has that impulse towards the above up and out each of those in their own way.

但冥王星关乎深度。

But Pluto is into depth.

深度心理学诞生于十九世纪末。

And depth psychology was born in the late nineteenth century.

我认为尼采在很多方面是关键人物。

I think Nietzsche was probably in many ways the key figure.

他出生时冥王星与太阳成对分相。

He's born with Pluto opposite the Sun.

如果一个人想体会冥王星在富有表现力的哲学表达中的体现，那么弗里德里希·尼采所言的查拉图斯特拉，确实能让人深刻感受到这一点。

If one wants to get a sense for Pluto in in eloquent philosophical expression, Friedrich Nietzsche thus spoke Zarathustra and one really can get the sense of it.

他甚至在最后一封信上署名：狄俄尼索斯。

He even signed his last letters Dionysus.

他的一些关键表述是：是的，看到太阳与冥王星相对了吗？

Some of his key phrases were, Yeah, see that Sun opposite Pluto?

再鲜明不过了。

Could hardly be more vivid.

对于听音频的听众，他的太阳位于天秤座22度07分，冥王星位于白羊座22度57分。

For the audio listeners, his Sun is at twenty two seven Libra and his Pluto is at twenty two fifty seven Aries.

这是一个非常紧密的对冲。

It's a very close opposition.

是的。

Yeah.

我在《宇宙与心灵》后面有一整个章节，专门讨论了自然，其中我梳理了他的一些主要星象配置，包括太阳与冥王星的对冲。

I have a whole section on nature later in Cosmos and Psyche where I kind of go over a number of his major alignments including that Sun Pluto.

他的许多核心观点之一是：‘对有洞察力的人来说，所有本能都是神圣的。’

And so much of his key ideas of he said, like To the discerning person, all instincts are holy.

这是一个。

That's one.

或者他还有另一个观点。

Or he has another one.

过上有成效的生活的秘诀是什么？

What is the secret of living a fruitful life?

勇敢地生活。

Live dangerously.

在维苏威火山边上建房子。

Build homes on the side of Vesuvius.

让你们的船驶向未知的海域。

Send your ships out onto uncharted seas.

与自己和与你们的同类交战。

Live at war with yourselves and with your equals.

不，是与你们的同类和与自己交战。

No, with your equals and with yourselves.

这就是过上有成效的生活的秘诀。

That is the secret of living a fruitful life.

你甚至能听到冥王星，就连与太阳相对的冥王星，也在与你自己作战，他致力于超越自我，以融入更伟大的、救赎的力量。

You can just hear as Pluto Even the Pluto opposite Sun at war with yourself too, he was into transcending the self in order to come into the greater, power, redemptive power.

他还有另一段话。

He has another passage.

看啊，我就是那个必须不断超越自我的存在。

Behold, I am that which must overcome itself again and again.

他说，自然向我揭示了这个深刻的秘密。

He was saying, nature told me this deep secret.

看啊，我就是那个必须不断超越自我的存在。

Behold, I am that which must overcome itself again and again.

或者他还有另一段优美的文字，说：人内心必须拥有混沌，才能孕育出一颗星星。

Or he has another beautiful passage where he says, One must have chaos inside oneself in order to give birth to a star.

那么，这颗星星就是太阳，对吧？

Well, the star is the Sun, right?

那就是我们的星星——太阳。

That's our star, the Sun.

而太阳就是我们自身核心自我原则的象征。

And the Sun is the symbol of our own central principle of selfhood.

它也是英雄原型，也就是太阳英雄，不过这种英雄可能会陷入不成熟的状态，只会做约翰·韦恩式的那种莽夫英雄。

And it's hero archetype, the solar hero who can get caught in an immature form of just being the John Wayne hero or something like that.

但真正深刻的英雄会历经人生的低谷沉沦，最终在伟大的奉献中成为整体的守护者。

But there's a deep hero that goes through the descent that becomes a servant of the whole in a great sacrifice.

那才是真正的英雄主义。

That's true heroism.

所以当他说人必须直面内心的混沌时，这份混沌就是冥王星，而内心的太阳才能孕育出一颗星辰——这便契合了他的另一句名言：成为你所是。

And so when he says one must have chaos inside oneself, that's Pluto, inside oneself, the Sun, in order to give birth to a star, that's the solar like then you become another one of his phrases, become what thou art become what thou art.

他在很多层面都承载着冥王星与太阳的联结，也就是那种冥王星式的能量。

So he there's many ways in in which he he was carrying that Pluto Sun, that Plutonic energy.

而他也成为了整个深度心理学项目的引路人与先驱，这项事业后来由弗洛伊德、荣格、梅兰妮·克莱因、玛丽-路易丝·冯·法兰兹，还有詹姆斯·希尔曼等一众重要的深度心理学家接续推进。

And then he serves as a kind of guide or precursor of the whole Depth psychology project that is carried forward by Freud, by Jung, by Melanie Klein, by Marie Louise Von Franz, by so many important Depth psychologist James Hillman.

我认为斯坦·格罗斯的研究成果，是将弗洛伊德学派、荣格学派的理论，以及精神性与本能性维度融合而成的极具影响力的集大成之作。

I think Stan Gross' work becomes especially potent synthesis of the Freudian, the Jungian, the spiritual, the instinctual.

这在一定程度上是因为他当时在使用LSD和神圣的致幻植物，如裸盖菇素、蘑菇、佩奥特碱、墨斯卡林等。

And it partly is because he was working with the power of LSD and the sacred vision plants, psilocybin, mushrooms, peyote, mescaline, and so forth.

你知道，荣格曾说过，我们尚未认识到无意识的发现是多么关键的精神突破，只有整合它，才能挽救我们的文明。

You know, Jung once said, we have not yet recognized the extent to which the discovery of the unconscious is a critical spiritual discovery integrate we in order to preserve our civilization.

我认为，为了转化我们并挽救我们的文明，这正是他所想的。

I would say in order to transform us and preserve our civilization, which I'm sure he meant too.

无意识的发现，是的，那里有荣格。

The discovery of the unconscious, yeah, there's there's Jung.

看看他星盘底部附近的月亮与冥王星合相。

Look at that Moon Pluto conjunction near the near the base of his chart.

是的，那确实非常接近，就在天蝎座29度的IC附近，冥王星位于天蝎座23度，月亮在15度，而这两者都与位于水瓶座24度的土星形成刑相位。

Yeah, that's really close right there next to the IC at 29 Taurus and Pluto is at 23 Taurus and the Moon is at 15 and then both are squaring Saturn which is at 24 Aquarius.

没错。

That's right.

而且月亮还与天王星形成紧密的刑相位。

And the Moon is tight square Uranus as well.

所以荣格拥有如此强大的阿尼玛。

So he has such a powerful anima, Jung does.

月亮如此强大，所有三颗外行星都与之存在某种关系：与天王星形成一度的刑相，与冥王星形成约八度的紧密合相。

The Moon is so potent, all three outer planets are in some relationship, the one degree square to Uranus, the tight conjunction to Pluto about eight degrees.

在他出生时，月亮正好位于海王星和冥王星之间。

And then the Moon is right in between Neptune and Pluto in the sky when he's born.

因此，他的整个童年都承载着来自地底世界的强烈海王星能量——幻象、梦境等等。

So his whole childhood is carrying those intensified Neptunian energies of visions, dreams, etcetera from the underworld.

而他对阿尼玛的理解，以及为什么我们的文明、尤其是男性，需要重新与他所称的‘女性面’建立联系。

And then his understanding of the Anima and why our civilization and particularly men need to, you know, kind of come into reengagement with what he called the feminine.

但月亮原则本身兼具男性和女性的特质。

But it's it's the lunar principle which has both masculine and feminine qualities.

但他的阿尼玛受到了三颗超个人行星对月亮的相位影响。

But his anima had all three of the transpersonal planets aspecting his Moon.

因此，他在一封信中说过一句精彩的话：心理发展的首要任务是与阴影相遇。

And so he has a great sentence in one of his letters where he said, the apprentice piece of psychological development is the encounter with the shadow.

杰作是与阿尼玛的相遇。

The masterpiece is the encounter with the anima.

他当时在谈论男性心理学，但由于我们的文明长期以来如此父权化，从许多方面来看，这同样适用于集体心理，深度心理学若能促使我们进行这种深层工作，就能为集体、为我们文明带来巨大的馈赠。

Now he's talking about male psychology at that point, but because our civilization has been so patriarchal, in many ways, can apply this to the collective psychology and the great gift that Depth psychology provides for the collective, for our civilization if it's willing to do this deep work.

首先，我们必须直面阴影——那些我们不愿看见的事物，还有西方文明、现代文明的整个阴影面，我们所谈论的一切：生态破坏、对其他物种的影响、父权制、欧洲中心主义，以及所有这些由一个既充满活力又崇高的文明和物种所造成的巨大苦难。

And that is if first we have to face the shadow, the things that we don't wanna see, And, you know, the whole shadow side of Western civilization, of modern civilization, of all the things we've been talking about, the ecological devastation, the effect on other species, the patriarchal, Eurocentric, all the ways in which tremendous suffering has been caused by what is also a dynamic and noble civilization and species.

我们两者都包含在内。

We we contain both.

如果我们可以首先如他所说，面对阴影——这是学徒阶段，整合它，然后我们才能进入更大的任务，即与阿尼玛建立关系，阿尼玛是生命的整体，是生命的灵魂，是世界灵魂（阿尼玛·蒙迪）。

And, if we can first face the shadow as he called it the apprentice piece and integrate that, he said, then we can enter into the bigger task which is to come into relationship to the Anima which is the whole of life, is the soul of life, is the Anima Mundi, the soul of the world.

世界灵魂，世界的灵魂。

Anima Mundi, the soul of the world.

这正是被压抑的东西。

This is what's been repressed.

这正是詹姆斯·希尔曼在他那篇有力的论文《世界灵魂：灵魂重返世界》中提出的核心观点。

This is James Hillman's great point in his powerful paper called Anima Mundi, the return of the soul to the world.

这本书名为《心灵的思想与世界之魂》。

It's in a book called The Thought of the Heart and the Soul of the World.

对整个世界并非商品这一观念的压制——不仅针对人类，也包括其他一切——这种压制导致了现代心智的一种破坏性疏离，使其试图将整个宇宙、地球、其他物种乃至其他人类都物化，这是我们文明中极为道德恶劣的一面。

And suppression of the idea that the whole world isn't sold, not just human beings, that suppression has allowed a kind of destructive alienation on the part of the modern mind whereby it tried to basically objectify the entire universe and all the earth and all the other species and even other human beings very very morally horrific side of our civilization.

由于这种物化宇宙的观念，认为只有我们才是主体，尤其是某种特定的主体——西方现代文明，我们必须在某种意义上失去这种身份，让它被瓦解、被摧毁，才能觉醒到我们生活在一个充满深刻精神奥秘、智慧与灵魂的活生生的宇宙中。

Because of that view of an objectified universe in which we are the only subjects and particularly a certain type of subject namely the Western modern civilization, we have to lose in a sense have that identity overcome, destroyed in order to wake up to the fact that we live in a living universe that is imbued with profound spiritual mystery and intelligence and soul.

我们如今正经历一场柏拉图式的转化炼狱，它既赋予我们进行这种转化的机会，也迫使我们不得不去做，因为如今一切皆危在旦夕，而这种紧迫性在二十世纪七十年代罗布·汉德讨论冥王星、海王星和行星相位时并未如此明显。

And we're going through a kind of platonic transformational crucible right now that's giving us both the opportunity but also the necessity of doing that transformation because everything's at stake now in a way that wasn't as visible in the nineteen seventies when, Rob Hand was writing about Pluto, Vesheva, and and planets in transit.

在六十年代，这种紧迫性也没有那么明显。

It wasn't it wasn't as, visible in the sixties.

如今它已变得极为明显，而且可能会变得更加明显。

It's very visible now and it's probably gonna get more visible.

我认为，幸运的是，世界上越来越多的人正在觉醒，意识到我们处境的本质，并开始感知深度心理学、原住民智慧传统、神圣药物之旅、社会与生态正义运动等为我们提供的巨大馈赠，这些都可能促成一场根本性的转变。

And I think, fortunately, there are more and more people in the world who are waking up to the nature of our situation and are tuning into the great gifts that Depth psychology, indigenous wisdom traditions, sacred medicine journeys, social and ecological justice movements and so forth, what all these provide for us in terms of a potential radical transformation.

越来越多的人正加入这场我们这个时代伟大的英雄之旅，但恐怕再难有比我们当下更戏剧性的时期了。

There's more and more people on board for this great kind of heroic quest of our time, but it could hardly be more a dramatic period than we are in.

对。

Right.

我刚刚在看星盘，你提到荣格的星盘，他的月亮和冥王星在金牛座中段合相。

I was just looking at the charts and I pulled up, you were talking about Jung's chart and his Moon Pluto conjunction in mid Taurus.

这让我想看看弗洛伊德的星盘，有趣的是，他的太阳和冥王星也在金牛座中段合相（虽然角度稍宽），还有金星和冥王星的合相。

And it made me want to pull up Freud's chart who interestingly has a Sun, it's a little wide, but a Sun Pluto conjunction in mid Taurus and also Venus Pluto conjunction.

是的，金星冥王星正好落在他的下降点上，这正是他关注的重点。

Yeah, Venus Pluto with his focus on the Venus Pluto right at his Descendant.

他的整个焦点都放在享乐原则、金星冥王星，以及性能量的重要性上——他几乎把它当作唯一的解释。

What's his whole focus is on the pleasure principle, Venus Pluto, and on the importance of sexual energy as he a kind of He had made it into a mono explanation.

荣格和格罗斯工作的优势在于，他们拓展了我们对普鲁托（冥王星）力量的理解。

The advantage of Jung's work and Gross's work is that they expanded our understanding Plutonic.

所以，它涉及性，但又不止于性。

Of So it is the sexual, but it's more than the sexual.

它是原初的、本能的、再生的，其中蕴含着神圣的维度。

It's the elemental, the instinctual, it's the regenerative, there's a sacred dimension to it.

但你看这一点。

But, look at that.

他在很多方面都拥有一个由冥王星主导的星盘。

He's got a Pluto dominated chart in many ways.

他出生时，太阳正好位于天王星和冥王星之间。

He's basically born with the Sun in between Uranus and Pluto.

而荣格出生时，太阳与海王星呈紧密刑相，月亮则位于海王星和冥王星之间。

And Jung's born with the Sun tight square to Neptune and the Moon in between Neptune and Pluto.

看到他们太阳与月亮的相位互动真有意思。

It's interesting seeing their Sun Moon synastry.

有趣的是，荣格当然会注意到这一点，我不禁想到他的共时性实验，当时他正在研究关系中太阳与月亮位置的人，作为婚配前的相位分析，是的。

It's funny, Jung of course would have remarked on that and I can't help but thinking of his synchronicity experiment where he was comparing Sun Moon people in relationships as a synastry prepping Marriages, yeah.

这一定在他潜意识的某个角落存在着。

That must have been in the back of his mind somewhere.

我不会感到惊讶，因为尽管他根本没有研究过冥王星，但他确实一直在研究太阳、月亮以及土星以外的行星，晚年还涉及了天王星。

I wouldn't be surprised because even though he work with Pluto at all for example, but he definitely was working with Sun and Moon and the planets out through Saturn and in later years with Uranus as well.

但在许多方面，弗洛伊德把荣格看作自己的儿子，弗洛伊德曾把荣格称为精神分析的太子，就像对待自己的儿子一样。

But in many ways, Freud looked at Jung as being his son and the crown prince of psychoanalysis is how Freud described Jung with his son.

所以，弗洛伊德的星盘中，他的儿子与荣格的月亮成合相，而弗洛伊德自己则有天王星合相。

So, Freud's got his son conjunct Jung's Moon and Freud has a Uranus conjunction.

我们来看一下。

Let's see.

弗洛伊德的太阳与天王星成合相，并且这个合相正与荣格的月亮相合，而荣格的月亮又与天王星成刑相。

Freud's got the Sun Uranus conjunction and it's conjoining Jung's Moon which is square Uranus.

因此，他们各自体现了一种普罗米修斯式的原则：弗洛伊德侧重于太阳英雄式的征服者形象。

So they each have a kind of one's kind of Promethean principle of the solar, Freud's focus on the heroic conquistador.

而荣格的月亮正好位于弗洛伊德外层星盘的太阳与天王星合相位置上。

Well, Jung, having his Moon right there on the Sun Uranus of Freud's in the outer chart.

荣格的月亮与天王星紧密成刑相，所以他确实具备这种特质。

And Jung's Moon is tight square to Uranus, so he's got that.

他的追随者大多是女性，他强调解放阿尼玛、整合阿尼玛以及生命中的女性面向，以实现完整，而不是像父权制那样压抑它。

His followers tended to be women, and he was focused on the importance of the liberation of the Anima and the integration of the Anima and the feminine side of life in order to become whole and not suppressing it the way patriarchy does.

荣格也更关注母神、索菲亚、圣母玛利亚、伟大的母亲原型、马赫纳玛特等。

Jung was also more focused on the mother goddess, on Sophia, on the Virgin Mary, on the Great Mother archetypes, Machnamater, etcetera.

而弗洛伊德则更关注太阳神祇、俄狄浦斯、耶和华与天父、摩西以及一神教等。

While Freud was focused much more on solar deities, Oedipus, on dealing with Yahweh and God the Father and his Moses and monotheism, etcetera.

他更感兴趣的是将自我英雄从普鲁托力量的掌控中解放出来，而荣格则更注重整合生命中的月亮面向，以此重新与我们的灵魂建立联系，实现救赎性的转化。

And he was more interested on liberating the egoic hero from the clutches the power of the Plutonic while Jung was more on integrating the lunar side of life as the way to get in contact with our soul again for redemptive transformational purposes.

有趣的是，就在土星运行至荣格和弗洛伊德的太阳与月亮合相位置时。

And what's interesting is it's right when transiting Saturn transited across Jung's and, Freud's Sun Moon conjunction.

我刚才就是在看这个。

That's what I was just looking at.

正是在这次行运期间，他们经历了重大的决裂。

It's during that transit that they they went through their big break.

他们发生了分歧。

That they had a falling out.

因为他们的相位关系，某种程度上形成了一种柏拉图式的相位互动。

That because they have I With that synastry, have kind of a platonic synastry there.

普鲁托的一个特点是倾向于走向极端。

One of the things with Pluto is that it a tendency to go to extremes.

之前你提到弗洛伊德把荣格当作能推动心理学发展的‘金童’之类的，但这是柏拉图式相位的典型表现之一：有时这种关系极其正面，但一旦转向负面，就会走向另一个极端，导致极其痛苦的决裂。

Earlier, you were talking about Freud treating Jung like the golden child that would take psychology forward or what have you, but that's one of the typical things of Platonic synastry is sometimes the extreme of it can be extremely positive, but when it goes negative, it can go the opposite extreme and be extremely negative and have a very painful sort of falling out.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

所以他们是在1910年到1911年间决裂的吗？

So it was nineteen ten, nineteen eleven when they had their falling out?

是的。

Yes.

我的意思是，他们经历了一系列阶段。

I mean, went through a series of stages.

甚至在1909年，这种趋势就已经开始出现了。

Even 1909, it was starting to occur.

但1911年才是决定性的时刻。

But XX and 11 was quite decisive.

我在《普罗米修斯：唤醒者》这本小册子中写到了这一点，那是我在70年代末写的。

And I write about it in Prometheus the Awakener, that little monograph I wrote back in the late '70s.

所以，事实上，之后几年里，当你看荣格的行运时，他经历的行运简直不可思议——他经历了整个深入潜意识的过程，这催生了《红书》，也奠定了他一生的全部工作基础，正如你所见，海王星和天王星当时几乎正横跨他的……你能看到1916年海王星正好位于他的太阳位置。

So, yeah, in fact, then there's a whole If you look at in the years after that with Jung's transits, just unbelievable transits he went through as he went through the whole period, the descent into his unconscious that brought forth the Red Book and really his entire life's work is that basically Neptune as you can see and Uranus were basically moving right across his can see Neptune right on his Sun there in 1916.

但在那之前，如果你回溯到1914年，就能看到天王星的影响。

But prior to that, if you go back to 1914, you can see Uranus.

其实应该回溯到1913年，那时就已经开始了。

Go go back to 1913 actually when it started.

天王星与他的太阳形成对冲，随着时间推移，天王星又与他的月亮形成刑相位。

Uranus is opposing his Sun, and and then as the years go by, it it opposes his, Uranus square's Moon.

因此，从1913年到1917或1918年这段时间，他经历了巨大的动荡，正如他自己所说，当时无数意象如潮水般涌入他的幻象与梦境，甚至动摇了他内心稳定与自我认同的根基。

And so that period from like 1913 to 1917 or '18 is a period when he just went through such a, know, the, as he put it, all the images that flooded into his visions and his dreams at that time and even kind of destabilized his sense of centered sanity and identity.

这一切如此强大，成为了他一生工作的原始物质。

So much It was so powerful that that became the prima materia, the prime matter of his whole life's work.

好的。

All right.

我们要跳过一些内容，因为剩下的部分我们还有很多要点要讲，所以我们会稍微快一点进行。

We're gonna jump through because there's a bunch of points we wanted to get through in the rest of this, so we'll kind of do this a little bit more rapidly.

我一位占星师朋友说过的话一直让我印象深刻，我觉得这是对冥王星的一个很好的解释原则，也与你所说的某些观点一致。

Something an astrologer friend of mine said that always stuck with me that I thought was a good interpretive principle for Pluto and I think it's consistent with one of the things that you're saying.

已故的占星师艾伦·怀特，大约十年前去世了，他曾参与‘前景计划’，但他一直说：冥王星会让小事物变大，大事物变小。

The astrologer Alan White who passed away about a decade ago, he was involved in Project Hindsight, but something he always said was that Pluto makes small things big and big things small.

我认为这与冥王星有时所代表的放大事物、推向极端或超越正常界限的含义有关。

And I think this is connected with this thing of the signification of kind of magnifying things or taking things to extreme or pushing them beyond their normal limits that is sometimes associated with Pluto.

你怎么看这个说法？

What do you think about that?

非常正确。

Very true.

是的

Yeah.

它会放大事物。

It magnifies things.

它会增强它们。

It intensifies them.

它赋予其泰坦般的力量。

It gives titanic energy to it.

例如，在发现前三颗外行星之后，人们常将天王星比作水星的高八度，海王星比作金星的更高八度，即普遍神圣之爱相对于人类之爱，或水星代表思维，天王星代表宇宙思维，就像水星的日常数学与天王星的爱因斯坦相对论之类。

For example, sometimes back after the first three outer planets were discovered, there was a typical comparison that Uranus was the upper octave of Mercury and Neptune was the higher octave of Venus, universal divine love compared with human love or Mercury as the mind and Uranus as the cosmic mind, just Mercury's everyday mathematics and Uranus' Einsteinian relativity theory or something like that.

然后是火星和冥王星。

And then with Pluto, be Mars and Pluto.

冥王星是火星的高八度，或者说更深的八度。

Pluto is the higher octave of Mars or one might say deeper octave.

但在这个例子中，如果火星像一场拳击赛，冥王星就像一场地震，或者是一场世界大战，它要大得多，甚至是一场具有冥王星特质的战争。

But in this case, if Mars is like a fistfight, Pluto is like an earthquake, it's just like, you know, or it's a world war, it's like much bigger or even just a war that's plutonic.

因此，它极大地强化了任何与之产生关联的现象。

And so it greatly intensifies whatever phenomenon that it is coming into relationship to.

有趣的是，埃伦·怀特对此有两面性的看法，因为你可以看到，这如何让小事变大，把老鼠变成大象，或者带来那种史诗级的科技赋能，像超级肌肉般强大。

Now, what's interesting is Ellen White's two sides to that because you can see how that would make a small thing big, the mouse into the elephant with the or the technological empowerment that can happen with the Titanic empowerment super muscled.

但让大的变小，我一直在思考这一点。

But making the larger smaller, I was thinking about that.

我感觉他想表达的是自我消亡的那部分。

And I have a feeling what he's getting at is the ego death part of it.

它削弱了那些膨胀的东西，最终这些都会被摧毁。

It undercuts that's inflated ultimately going to get destroyed.

因此，它起到一种补偿性原则的作用。

And so it serves as a kind of compensatory principle.

它能让事物变大，也能让事物变小，这取决于你处于旅程的哪个阶段。

It makes larger and it can make smaller depending on where you are in the journey.

是的。

Yeah.

他经常举的一个具体例子是原子弹及其研发过程，即从极其微小的原子入手，将其裂开，从而引发巨大的爆炸。

One of the tangible examples of the first part that he always used was the atom bomb and the development of the atom bomb where you're taking something extremely small in atom and then breaking it open and then causing this huge explosion.

在此之前，爆炸可能像火药或TNT这类火星原理的炸药，但原子弹的威力远远超出了任何人此前的想象，达到了极致。

Explosions up to that point which might have been like Mars principle of dynamite or TNT or something like that, but this was magnified far beyond anything anybody had previously imagined and taken to the utmost extreme.

他有没有提到过相反的情况，也就是如何将大的东西变小？

And did he say anything about what he meant the other way around about making the large small?

我正在努力回想，但我觉得他提到过技术，以及技术如何不断将事物微型化——比如，十年前还像房子一样巨大的计算机，到了下一个十年就变得能放进你的手机里了。

I'm trying to remember, but one of his things I think was technology and just how technology kept miniaturizing things like, you know, huge computer the size of a house in one decade suddenly becomes fitting in your mobile phone the following decade or what have you.

是的，我认为这就是其中一部分。

Yeah, I think that was part of it.

关于这一点，我觉得很有趣。

In terms of that, I thought it was interesting.

据我了解，在为这一集做研究时，元素钚实际上是在1941年按照惯例以冥王星（Pluto）命名的，此前铀（Uranium）和镎（Neptunium）也都是以发现的行星命名的。

Apparently in doing research for this episode, the element plutonium was actually named after the planet Pluto in 1941 following a convention where Uranian and Neptunian were also previously named after planets when they were discovered previously.

但有趣的是，尽管钚在1941年就被发现并命名，但由于战时保密，人们直到1948年才得以公开宣布或发表这一发现，延迟了数年之久。

But interestingly, terms of the significations of Pluto, even though it was discovered, plutonium was discovered in 1941 and named, didn't The they wartime secrecy prevented them from announcing it or publishing about the discovery until 1948 several years later.

是的。

Yeah.

我不清楚他们为什么把这三种元素和三颗行星联系起来，但是……

I don't know what they had in mind with the connection between those three elements and three planets, But

是的。

Yeah.

但就实际而言，我认为在二战中投下的两颗原子弹最终都使用了钚芯。

But just, I don't know, in practical terms, I think both of the bombs that ended up being dropped in World War II ended up having plutonium cores.

那里有一些有趣的事情。

There's some interesting things there.

回到其他象征意义和核心概念，我们之前提到过，它会将其接触的一切推向极致。

And just going back to other significations and other core things, we mentioned the intensification of anything that it touches and being taken to the utmost extreme.

所以，当它与其他行星结合时，这种特性往往表现得尤为明显。

So sometimes that when combined with other planets is really where that comes out.

例如，当它与金星结合时，会将与人际关系相关的特质推向极致，一方面可能表现为对爱情的极致投入之类的积极表现。

So for example, combined with Venus and taking elements of having to do with relationships to their utmost extreme, which on the one hand could be a positive manifestation of going to the utmost extreme for love or what have you.

另一方面，这可能表现为负面的极端行为——过度沉迷、无法放手，即使情况已经变得不合适。

Then on the other hand, it could be a negative side of that of going too far or being too obsessed or not letting go of somebody even when it becomes inappropriate or what have you.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

这是个非常好的观点。

That's a very good point.

在我任教于加州整合研究学院（CIS）的这三十多年里，我开设了许多名为‘原型、艺术与文化’的课程，我会运用艺术、音乐、电影、诗歌等作品，来展现特定原型或两个行星之间原型组合的本质，让学生们一起聆听某首歌曲或观看一部电影。

One of the ways in which in my courses at CIS, California Institute of Integral Studies where I've taught for these last better part of three decades, I've taught a lot of courses called Archetypes Art and Culture where I will use works of art, music, film, poetry, etcetera to demonstrate the nature of a particular archetype or archetypal combination between, let's say, two planets by having the students, we all listen to a particular song or we we see a film.

比如，谈到我们刚才讨论的金星与冥王星，我通常会播放珍妮丝·乔普林的音乐，她出生时金星与冥王星呈对分相，她的太阳和水星也恰好都与冥王星相对。

So for example, with the Venus Pluto that we're just talking about, I would typically, among other things, I would play something like Janus Joplin who's born with Venus opposite Pluto, Venus and Sun and Mercury in her case all opposite Pluto.

金星与冥王星的对分相，她的代表作《再拿走我一点心》——你知道的，即使当你将我拥入怀中时让我痛苦不堪，我依然说：‘再拿走我一点心吧。’

But that Venus opposite Pluto and what's her signature song, Take another little piece of my heart, you know, even though it's causing me agony when you put me in your arms, I just say take another little piece of my heart.

是的。

Yeah.

所以她的金星位于水瓶座14度，水星位于水瓶座9度，与位于狮子座6度的冥王星相对。

So her Venus is at 14 Aquarius and Mercury at nine Aquarius opposite Pluto at six Leo.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

而水星位于那里，强化了沟通，甚至是一种呐喊。

And the Mercury being there brings in the communication of it with and even the screaming of it.

像水星冥王星这样的配置会增强声音、思维和沟通的强度。

People like Mercury Pluto emphasize it can intensify the voice as well as the mind and the communication.

想想约翰·列侬的尖叫声，你知道，即使在披头士早期，比如唱《Twist and Shout》时，他也会那样喊。

And think of both say John Lennon with his scream, you know, he could scream even when in the early Beatles like with Twist and Shout or something like that.

他必须把这首歌放在最后唱，因为唱完后他的嗓子会完全沙哑。

He would have to do that that song last because it would just make his voice so ragged at the end of the night of singing.

当他演唱个人首张专辑中的《Mother》这首歌时，他的月亮、水星和冥王星形成了一个T型相位。

And when he did Mother, the song Mother in his first solo album, he had a Moon Mercury Pluto t square.

你看到月亮和冥王星形成如此紧密的对冲了吗？

You see the Moon opposite Pluto quite tight?

而水星位于天蝎座八度，与冥王星和月亮形成T型相位。

And then Mercury is at eight Scorpio in a t square with Pluto and the Moon.

因此，他有着强烈的情感倾向，谈论背叛或与母亲的关系——你生下了我，但我从未拥有过你。

So he's got all the emotional tendency of talking about whether it's betrayal or the relationship to the mother is losing his mother, You had me, but I never had you.

接着他发出原始的尖叫，这是水星在表达情感的强烈程度。

And then he goes into the primal screaming and that's the Mercury coming in to express the intensity of the emotion.

珍妮丝·乔普林的演唱也是如此。

And Janis Joplin did that with her singing.

我的意思是，在珍妮丝·乔普林演唱《Peace of My Heart》或她版本的《Ball and Chain》之前，人们从未听过她把如此强烈的、发自本能的张力注入歌声，听起来就像被困住的野兽在嘶吼，尤其是在《Ball and Chain》里。

I mean, people, before Janis Joplin's singing in Peace of My Heart or her version of Ball and Chain, She was bringing such visceral visceral intensity into her voice that it could sound just like an animal, like an animal screaming in a trap or something like that in ball and chain.

这正是水星的作用。

And that's the Mercury coming in.

但金星对冲冥王星的部分，是她身上那种即使你如你所说——即便这段关系对你并不好，我依然爱你，我不愿离开你，即使你背叛我，即使你让我痛苦，即使你流落街头，做着不该做的事。

But the Venus opposite Pluto is the part of her that where she sometimes it can be as you put it, know, like even after being obsessed with the relationship, you know, even though you aren't good for me, I love you anyway, and I don't want I don't wanna leave you even though or I don't want you to leave me even though you're betraying me, even though you're causing me agony, even though, you're out on the street, doing what you're not supposed to do.

我仍然想要那种充满激情的爱，但金星与冥王星的相位也可能带来一种痴迷的爱。

I still, you know, want to be It's passionate love, but it can also be obsessive love with the Venus Pluto.

是的，因此我经常借助艺术来对比，比如如果我想把她和金星海王星相位作对比，我就会提到乔尼·米切尔，她的声音更加空灵、近乎天使般，歌曲和旋律更具诗意，这与金星冥王星形成了鲜明对比。

So yeah, those are So I often use the arts, you know, if I was wanna contrast her with, like the Venus Neptune aspect, then I would bring in someone like Joni Mitchell who has that much more almost ethereal voice, kind of angelic, the more lyrical quality of her singing and melodies and so forth, that much more Venus Neptune compared with Venus Pluto.

这样做出原型上的区分是有帮助的。

You know, it's helpful to make archetypal distinctions that way.

运用艺术——无论是电影、喜剧、雕塑还是音乐——的美妙之处在于，你能真切地感受到它。

And the beauty of using the arts whether it's film or comedy or sculpture or music is that you can feel it.

你能感受到这些原型，因为这些原型不仅仅是你在书中读到的关键词，然后用理性方式套用的东西。

You feel the archetype because these archetypes aren't just keywords that you read about in a book and then apply in a mentalistic way.

语言有助于我们理解其含义。

Words are helpful for getting us to the meaning.

语言在引导我们抵达核心意义时至关重要，但真正的完整感受，更易通过艺术体验传达，因为音乐能深深触及人类心灵，甚至早于复杂语言的形成。

They're really crucial in getting us to the mean, but the but the full feeling is much more readily conveyed by artistic experience because, you know, like music taps in very deep into the human psyche even before complex language.

音乐是智人进化过程中继承的一部分。

Music is part of the evolutionary inheritance or legacy of Homo sapiens.