项目后见之明访谈评论

不过大部分情况下，你知道，我觉得随着传统占星术的复兴，有趣的是，这确实提升了占星界讨论的水平和部分质量，部分原因在于传统占星术很难。

Although for the most part, you know, I think with the revival of traditional astrology, it's been interesting how much I do think that's raised some of the level of discourse in the astrological community and some of the quality partially because traditional astrology is hard.

它更难掌握，尤其是在早期阶段，因为你需要学习古代历史和哲学，还得努力应对那些非常晦涩、有时难以理解的翻译文本和其他类似材料。

It's harder to do especially in the earlier stages because you need to learn ancient history and philosophy and you have to struggle with reading these very dense, sometimes difficult to read translations and different texts like that.

而这个过程本身由于其挑战性和难度，会迫使你放慢脚步，更仔细、更深入地思考你正在做的事情。

And there is a certain way in which that inherently through the challenge or difficulty of the process can make you slow down and think a little bit more carefully and more deeply sometimes about what you're doing.

所以我不希望这被误解为一种薄弱的对比，比如现代占星术不好、传统占星术好之类的，因为事实完全不是这样。

So I don't want that to be misconstrued as a weak comparison of saying modern astrology bad, traditional astrology good or something like that because that's not the case at all.

我认为现代和传统占星术都有很棒的地方，也有不足之处。

And think there's great things as well as bad things about modern and traditional astrology.

理想情况下，经过三十年后的今天，当我们基本恢复了传统占星术，我们现在正进入一个真正开始融合两者、寻找将两者最佳部分结合在一起的阶段。

And ideally, at this stage thirty years later, now that we've largely recovered traditional astrology, we're at the stage where we're really starting to synthesize the two and find the way to put together the best pieces from both.

但没错，我觉得罗的这个评论很有趣，因为现在回过头看，三十年后重新审视他们在这次访谈中提出的每一个观点，都会发现这个当时才刚刚起步的项目，已经以多种方式彻底改变了占星界。

But yeah, I thought this comment of Rob's is interesting because all of the statements they make in this interview, the reason why it's so interesting now is to look at it now thirty years later in retrospect and how much the project that they were just barely getting started with and were just initiating at this time has transformed the astrological community in many ways.

而且现在出现了新一代占星师，他们有时先学习古代占星术，之后才学习现代占星术，这对我来说相当惊人，因为这和我当年的学习顺序完全相反——我是先学现代占星术，之后才接触古代占星术，我的其他同代人也是如此。

And that there's new generations of astrologers that are coming up who sometimes are learning ancient astrology first and then they're learning modern astrology later, which is pretty wild to me because that's the reverse of how I learned it where I learned modern first and then learned ancient astrology or some of my other contemporaries.

但确实，我们必须结合过去三十年间许多方面发生的巨大变化来看待这场整场访谈，而这些变化在很大程度上正是这三人工作直接导致的。

But yeah, we've got to look at this entire interview in the context of just how much things have changed in the past thirty years in many instances directly as a result of the work that these three did.

哦，是的。

Oh, yes.

对。

Yes.

关于你问施密特和我的问题，我已经提到了SEC的问题。

To answer the question you asked of Schmidt, of myself, I already mentioned the SEC issue.

今天我不想再在另一个语境下重复讨论这个问题。

I don't want to go into that again in another context today.

但另一个让我个人感到极大满足的方面是，几年前我在关于占星学的论文集中写了一篇关于第十三谐波的文章。

But another one which I found personally enormously gratifying was several years ago, I wrote an essay in my book of essays on astrology on the thirteenth harmonic.

这篇文章基于纽格鲍尔提到的希腊占星师使用的一种体系。

And this was based on a reference in Neugebauer to a system of the Greek astrologers used.

自从我读到纽格鲍尔的这个引用后，我不断发现这种技术被以不同于我在文章中所描述的方式应用。

And ever since I read that reference in Neugebauer, I was finding instance after instance after instance of this technique done differently from the way I described it in the essay.

我开始怀疑是不是纽格鲍尔产生了幻觉，我被他带进了误区。

And I was beginning to wonder if Neugebauer hallucinated and I have been led down the garden path by Neugebauer.

他们高高在上、气派十足地坐在中心位置，这正是我从纽格鲍尔那里学到的方法，包括如何使用它以及它的意义，甚至还有一些其他人从未注意到的细节。

Well, they're high, wide, handsome sitting in the middle of is exactly the method that I got from Neugebauer complete with examples of how to use it and what its significance is, including some things that were noted by were noted by no one else.

而且这种技术也出现在这些校正方法中。

And they also appear in these rectification techniques.

因此，我们不仅有城邦对这一技术的支持，还有其实际应用的例证。

So we not only have this technique supported by the polis, but also practical illustrations of its use.

因此，一个重要的背景点是，尽管他们在这个项目中还处于非常早期的阶段，目前只完成了保罗派的一两部译文，但每个人都已经做了大量的背景研究，并且对古代占星术的历史以及到目前为止的学术研究有深厚的了解。

So an important point here in context, especially with respect to some of the debates that have happened recently is that even though they're very early on in the project and they've only produced Paulist like one or two translations at this point, each of them has already done like enormous amount of background work and has a lot of background in the history of ancient astrology, of the academic scholarship that had been done up to this point.

例如，汉德现在谈论的是奥托·纽格鲍尔，他是二十世纪最杰出的古代科学史学家，尤其是天文学史学家。

Hand, for example, now is talking about Otto Neugebauer who is one of the most significant historians of ancient science and especially astronomy in the twentieth century.

所以，他们每个人都已经具备了相当扎实的背景。

So each of them already had a pretty strong background.

尽管他们首次将这些内容翻译成英语，但其中许多内容他们早已对占星术的历史进行了深入研究。

And even though they were translating some of these things into English for the first time, a lot of them had already studied the history of astrology pretty extensively.

当然，汉德、佐勒，甚至当时施密特都具备这样的背景。

Certainly, Hand had, Zoller had, and even Schmidt at this point.

我后来在一次最近发现的另一次访谈中了解到关于施密特的一些事，我可能很快会发布它——原来施密特在1989年到1991年左右于Matrix Software工作时，就开始翻译公元二世纪占星家克劳狄乌斯·托勒密的文本。

One of the things I realized and learned about Schmidt actually in another interview that I found recently that I'll I may release at some point soon, is that Schmidt, apparently when he was working at Matrix Software sometime between 1989 and 1991 or so, started translating the text of Claudius Ptolemy of the second century astrologer Claudius Ptolemy.

汉德实际上描述过这件事，而正是这个背景，解释了我一直以来听说的关于1992年UWAC事件的那句著名言论：当施密特在八十年代末到九十年代初为迈克尔·埃利温翻译托勒密著作时，汉德原本打算自己做一部全新的翻译与评注。

And Hand actually describes this, and then that was apparently the the context of the famous quote or the famous line that I had always heard told about what happened at UWAC in 1992 is that when Schmidt was translating Ptolemy for Michael Earlywine in the late eighties and early nineties, Hand originally said he was gonna do find a way to do a new translation and commentary on it.

但当他得知施密特和埃利温已经在着手这项工作后，就决定放弃自己的计划。

But when he heard that Schmidt and early wine were working on it, he decided not to.

但在那个时期，大约1990年、1989年，甚至可能早在1989年，汉德曾对施密特说：如果埃利温中途放弃，你就来找我，我们一起来合作完成。

But then Hand said to Schmidt at some point in that time period in like 1990, 1981, maybe as early as 1989, he said, If early wine ever drops the ball, then come find me and we'll work together and we'll do something, we'll collaborate.

而1992年发生的事是，施密特因为某些原因停止了与埃利温的合作。

And what happened in 1992 is that Schmidt had stopped working with Earlywine for some reason.

他们之间可能存在一些紧张关系，但他最终不再为埃利温工作，也不再为Matrix公司工作。

There may have been some tensions there, but he stopped working for Earlywine and stopped working for Matrix.

于是施密特和他妻子艾伦开车前往UAC，他们讲过一个著名的故事：刷爆了信用卡，一路冲向UAC。

And then Schmidt and his wife Ellen got in a car and they tell this famous story of charging up their credit card and going to UAC.

然后施密特在1982年4月的美国占星大会书店里找到了汉德。

And then Schmidt finds Hand in I think the bookstore at the United Astrology Conference in I believe April 1982.

他走向汉德，说：‘早期文尼搞砸了，咱们干点什么吧。’

He goes up to Hand and he says, Early Wine dropped the ball, like let's do something.

就在那时，基本上当晚及接下来的两三个晚上，他们与几位不同的占星师接连会面，开始酝酿一个最终成为‘前景计划’的想法——即开展某种翻译项目或历史文本档案，汉德用这个词来描述他的版本。

And then right then, basically that night and over the next two or three nights, there was this succession of meetings with several different astrologers where they started to formulate the idea that would eventually become Project Hindsight and this idea of doing some kind of translation project or some sort of archive for historical texts, is the term Hand used for it and for his version of it.

有时这个概念容易被混淆，但汉德曾使用过一个术语‘阿罗汉’，指代历史占星文本的档案库。

It sometimes gets kind of confused, but Hand had this term Arhat, which was the archive for the retrieval of historical astrological texts.

无论如何，在接下来的几个月里，他们持续完善这个想法，但我想直到1992年底到1993年初，他们才提出通过订阅服务来资助这个项目，这个创新点最终形成了‘前景计划’，并于1992年4月或1993年4月正式公布，而他们此时刚刚完成首个翻译作品，并于1993年7月接受了相关采访。

Anyways, so over the course of the next several months, they keep working out the idea, but I think it wasn't until late nineteen ninety two and early nineteen ninety three that they came up with the idea of doing a subscription service to fund this project, and that was the innovative idea that became Project Project Hindsight, which then was announced in April 1992, April 1993, and then here they are having just produced their first translation and doing an interview about it in July of of nineteen ninety three.

好的。

Alright.

那么，你觉得这会让我们这些从事个人占星实践的人成为更好的占星师吗？

Now, do you feel that that this will make those of us who practice astrology with individuals better astrologers?

终将如此。

Eventually.

但在那之前，必须进行大量的解读。

But there'll have to be a great deal of interpretation done between now and then.

不是立刻就能做到的，当然不是。

Not instantly, no.

我明白了。

I see.

也许会更加深思熟虑。

More thoughtful perhaps.

是的。

Yes.

有一件事我非常期待

One thing I am looking forward

这非常重要，值得深入思考和反思：她直接问他们，这些对古代占星术的翻译和恢复是否会帮助当代占星师成为更好的占星师？

So that's super important and it's really interesting to think about and reflect on is that and that I thought was really fascinating is she asked them point blank, are these translations in recovering ancient astrology going to contemporary astrologers better astrologers?

而汉德实际上态度比较谨慎，甚至相当保守。

And Hand actually, is kind of like he hedges or he's actually very conservative about it.

他说，最终会实现，但我们首先得做大量工作。

He's like, eventually, but we're gonna have to do a lot of work first.

它不会立刻让每个人成为更好的占星师、伟大的占星师之类，这实际上是一种非常审慎的回应，尤其是因为他们正试图向占星界推广并销售这个项目。

It's not immediately gonna make everybody a better astrologer, a great astrologer or something like that, which is actually a very measured response, especially because it's like they're trying to promote this and sell this project to the astrological community.

我有点惊讶，他们并没有过度炒作这个项目。

I was kind of surprised that they're really not over hyping it.

我的意思是，他们确实对这个项目抱有非常高的抱负和远大的期望，在长远来看，这些目标几乎过于理想化，或者设定得太高，超出了他们最终能够实现的范围。

I mean, they certainly have very high ambitions and lofty expectations and all sorts of things about this project to some extent in the long term, which turned out to be almost too idealistic or shooting too high in terms of what they were eventually able to accomplish.

不过，它未能完全完成或收尾的原因，是由于各种不同因素的发生。

Although the reasons that it wasn't fully accomplished or finished are due to a variety of different things that happened.

也许在后期，如果人际关系冲突没有阻碍，他们本可以实现当初设定的目标。

And maybe there were some scenarios where they could have done what they set out to do if personality conflicts hadn't gotten in the way in later years.

但让我觉得非常有趣的是，他们不仅为自己，也为占星界设定了非常合理的期望。

But it's so interesting to me that they're actually setting very reasonable expectations not just for themselves, but also for the astrological community.

汉德非常坦率地表示，这是一个正在进行中的工作，我们正在翻译所有这些文本。

Hand is very upfront about saying, you know, this is a work in progress and we're translating all these texts.

但即使我们翻译了这些文本，要理解其中描述的技术并最终将其付诸实践、进行测试，以确定哪些真正有效、哪些效果不佳，仍然需要很长时间，这和当代现代占星学中的任何其他技术或传统一样。

But even once we translate them, it's gonna take a while to unpack and understand the techniques that the texts are describing and then eventually to put the techniques in practice and test them out and see which ones are really which ones really work and which ones are really effective versus which ones don't or which ones aren't as effective, just like any other technique or tradition in in contemporary modern astrology.

所以我觉得他们在设定预期方面真的很有趣。

So I thought that was really interesting in terms of the expectations that they set.

施密特立即补充说，这至少能帮助他们更深入地思考这些材料，他试图平衡汉德那种过于谨慎的预期或陈述，关于订阅者可能期待的内容。

And Schmidt is quick right there to be like, well, you know, it will help them like think more deeply about the material and he tries to sort of counterbalance Hand's somewhat overly cautious, you know, expectations or statements about what what subscribers might expect.

施密特表示，这至少能帮助人们更深入地思考这一传统、他们所使用的技术，以及背后蕴含的哲学和其他原则——这正是他主要的兴趣所在，尤其是因为他本人主要来自哲学、数学和古代历史的背景。

And Schmidt says that it will at the very least help people think more deeply about the tradition and about the techniques that they're using and the philosophical and other principles underlying them, was his main interest, especially as the one that was primarily coming from a background in philosophy and mathematics and ancient history.

但我觉得这真的很有趣，因为这进一步清晰地表明，在讨论‘前景计划’的历史及其相关叙述时，他们实际上是如何向这个社群推广和谈论这一项目的。

But, yeah, I thought that was really interesting because again, that then becomes clear as part of as part of discussing like the history of Project Hindsight and narrative surrounding it, how they were actually pitching to this this to the community and talking about it.

在这里，他们的态度比我还预期的更加审慎，我觉得这很有趣。

Here, they're almost they're just a bit more measured than I expected, and I thought that was interesting.

我们正在删除那些以……开头的句子。

We're eliminating is lines that began.

古人说过，你永远无法知道那个‘古人’到底是谁。

Well, the ancient said, you never find out who the who said ancient was.

或者，根据我们的方法和我们的老师的说法，这是一种古老的实践，我们已经提到了它的年代。

Or gee, according to our method according to our teachers, this is an ancient practice that we've already brought up the date.

同样，没有任何引用。

Again, no reference.

有古代占星术吗？

Are there ancient astrology?

好的。

Okay.

这非常重要，因为他说了，而且这是对的。

So that's really important because he says And that's true.

汉德说，翻译所有这些文本的好处之一是我们将获得关于古代占星家说了什么的清晰历史记录。

Hand says one of the things that will be good about translating all these texts is that we'll have a clear account of the historical record of what the ancient astrologers said.

他说，在某些情况下，这意味着那些声称某些技法具有古老渊源的人——认为古代人使用这些技法——我们可能会发现，这些技法实际上是现代的发明，或者比某些人声称的要晚得多。

And he says like in some instances, that means that people that are claiming great antiquities for certain techniques today that the ancients use these techniques, we may find that those techniques are actually modern inventions or much more recent developments than certain people are claiming.

这确实是正确的。

And that's actually true.

有一些技术就是这样，比如我不想深入讨论这个话题。

There are some techniques like that where, for example I don't wanna get into a whole thing about this.

我迟早会做一期播客，但其实，算了，我就不展开说了。

I've been to do a podcast episode at some point, but for example Actually, no, I'm not going get into it.

我今天并不想引发什么争议，但确实有一些技术，二十世纪末的占星师有时认为——有时是真诚地相信——这些是古代占星术的技术，但后来发现，这些其实是误解，或者他们误读了文本，以为文本是在描述某种技术。

I'm not trying to get into some controversy today, but there's some techniques that sometimes astrologers in the late twentieth century thought, sometimes honestly believed were techniques from ancient astrology, but they actually, it turns out were misunderstandings or they misread the text thinking that it was outlining a technique.

但当我们回头重新翻译所有文本，并查看古代星盘实例时，比如瓦伦斯使用了一百多个星盘实例，我们却找不到任何在二十世纪之前存在这种技术的痕迹，这说明它其实是现代的发明。

But then it turned out when we went back and translated all the texts and saw that the ancient chart examples where, for example, Valens uses over a 100 chart examples that, we couldn't find any traces of that technique from prior to the twentieth century, which meant that it was a modern invention.

但这并不意味着它是错的，因为有时候确实会这样——这一点施密特在他整个职业生涯中反复强调过。

And that doesn't mean it was wrong because sometimes there can be And this is something actually Schmidt emphasized constantly throughout his career.

在恢复或真正试图重建某些东西的过程中，我们有时会无意中创造出一些新的、有效的东西，即使我们最终发现，我们所创造的是全新的，而不是真正从古代传承下来的。

Sometimes in the process of, recovering or genuinely trying to reconstruct something, we can sometimes accidentally invent something new that is valid, even if it turns out that our what we invented is something new and that we didn't actually recover something that was genuinely ancient.

但通过这样的过程，并付出努力，有时你确实能发现或创造出一些真正有效或有用的东西。

But through the process of doing that and and of making the effort, sometimes you can find something or make a discovery that's actually valid or useful.

这一点他从早年在数学领域的工作中，尤其是与数学家弗朗索瓦·韦达的研究中汲取而来，并且他不断提及、反复谈论这一点。

And this is something that he had taken from some of his earlier work in mathematics and especially with the mathematician Francois Viet, and it was something he constantly referred to and talked about over and over again.

这有利有弊，因为在某种程度上，这有点像是在掩盖事实——如果你只是在现代发明了一些东西，却声称它们源自古代，那就可能存在问题。

There's pros and cons to that because to some extent that's a little tricky because then it's a little bit of a cover for if you are just inventing things in modern times, but claiming they're ancient, there can sometimes be an issue there.

如果你并不真正尊重传统，却假装自己在尊重，这其中就会产生矛盾。

If you're, you know, not being true to the tradition or but sort of like like saying you are, there can be a tension there.

所以这是一个完全独立的话题，但我认为汉斯提到这一点很有趣，因为在某些情况下，这确实会成为结果，虽然这种情况并不多见。

So that's that's a whole separate discussion, but I thought it was interesting that Hans said that because that would actually be the outcome in some instances, like not a lot of instances.

但复兴古代占星术的一个变化是，如今的情况与30年前截然不同——如果有人声称某种新奇的技术源自古代占星术，你可以立刻反问：‘你是在哪本古籍里看到的？’

But one of the things about reviving ancient astrology is now, it's completely different than where it was 30 ago where if somebody says for some wacky new technique that this is something that was used in ancient astrology, you can turn around and say, Well, what text did you find that in?

告诉我具体是哪一章哪一段，我去查证一下，因为我希望深入研究这个技术，看看古代占星师是如何描述它的。

Let me know what chapter and paragraph and I'll go check it out because I want to study that technique further and see how the ancient astrologers talked about it.

如果这个人无法给出答案，那很可能说明他只是在杜撰。

And if that person doesn't have an answer for that, it may mean that they're just making that up.

这与20世纪80年代或90年代初大不相同，那时人们可以随意声称某种技术源自古代，而无需任何实证。

That's completely different than where it was in the 1980s or early 1990s where somebody could claim antiquity for a technique without it actually being from ancient times.

因此，这在某些方面彻底改变了占星界。

So that's radically changed the astrological community in in certain ways.

目前只有译本流传

In translation right now.

主要就只有托勒密的《四书》这一本

There's only Tome's Tetrabiblos, primarily.

还有马尼留斯的著作，但不是希腊文的

Menelius and but not Greek.

希腊文的

Greek.

那只是拉丁语。

It's a that's only Latin.

这是个相对的概念。

It's a relative term.

是的。

Yes.

这是一个相对的说法。

Which is a relative term.

我知道它就在那里。

I knew it was there.

好的。

Okay.

那么，鲍勃·佐勒，你有准备出版的著作吗？

Well, Bob Zoller, do you have a track do you have a treatise ready to come out?

我已经完成了阿尔·金迪的《恒星射线》。

I've had the Al Kindis on the Stellar Rays is over.

我们大概会在八月出版。

We will come out probably by the August.

你在其中发现了什么令人兴奋的地方？

And what did you find exciting in that?

这是一本关于魔法的文本。

Well, it's a text on magic.

整个主题非常引人入胜，因为这个文本中隐含地探讨了一个现代占星师一直困扰的问题。

And the entire subject is a very intriguing subject because the premise is, of course, sort of tacitly addressed in this particular text, something that modern astrologers are always troubled by.

也就是说，一旦我弄清楚了问题所在，我该怎么做呢？

Namely, once I figure out what the problem is, what do I do about it?

虽然这篇文本并没有给出具体的指导来解决这个问题，但它提出了一套理论，解释了为什么可以采取行动，或者如何可能采取行动。

And while this particular text doesn't give specific instructions as to what to do about it, it lays out a theory as to why something can be done about it or how something might be able to be done about it.

因此，这当然是第一步。

So that, of course, is the first step.

它间接地提到了其他一些已知的文本，我们也有意将它们翻译出来，比如《皮基特里克斯》，这些文本更为具体，但哲学性没有这么严密。

And it alludes to, in an indirect fashion, alludes to other known texts, which we also intend to translate, such as the Pikitrix, which are quite specific and not quite as tightly philosophically conceived

而这一篇则不然。

as this particular one.

所以它们彼此补充得非常好。

So they complement each other very nicely.

你们正在翻译的这些黑色材料是原始文本吗？

And is this black material that you're translating original material?

还是说这是希腊文，然后被转

Or is it Greek that was trans

所以这一点很重要。

So that point was important.

再强调一下，佐勒在拉丁语系列中的第一个译作是公元九世纪的阿拉伯哲学家阿尔·金迪。

Just to reiterate that Zoller's first translation and the first translation they did in the Latin track was al Kindi who was a ninth century Arabic philosopher.

《雷耶斯》实际上是一本非常晦涩的抽象哲学文本，这很有趣，因为这也为《回溯计划》定下了基调——该计划不仅关注技术，还非常重视古代占星术背后的哲学与形而上学，以至于他们最初的译作之一并非更偏向实用的保罗·亚历山大里亚的natal占星文本，而是阿尔·金迪和这部九世纪的哲学文本，这三人都对它很感兴趣。

On Reyes is actually a very dense sort of abstract philosophical text essentially, which is interesting because that also sets part of the tone for Project Hindsight where it really was not just about the techniques, but they had a major emphasis also on the philosophy and sort of like metaphysics underlying ancient astrology so much so that one of their first translations was not just Paulus Alexandrinus, which is much more practical text on natal astrology and reading birth charts, but it was also publishing al Kindi and this more philosophical text, from the ninth century that the three of them found interesting.

但这表明他们对研究和翻译拉丁语及后期阿拉伯语传统文本也有浓厚兴趣，这在《回溯计划》早期就已成为核心部分，当时他们正在考察各种古代占星传统，试图理解并重建最早的占星体系。

But it shows an interest in studying, translating texts from the Latin and from the later Arabic tradition as well, and that that was a core part of Project Hindsight very early on as they were looking at all of these different traditions of ancient astrology to try to understand and reconstruct what the earliest systems of astrology were.

此外值得注意的是，佐勒曾顺带提及《皮卡特里克斯》，因为他对占星魔法本身就有兴趣。

Also interesting and notable about this is that, Zoller briefly mentions the Picatrix in passing because he actually had an interest in astrological magic.

在三人中，他是最早在上世纪七十年代末至八十年代初开始回溯并研习早期传统、实践传统占星术的人。

And out of the three people, he started going back and studying the earlier tradition and practicing traditional astrology earlier than anyone else starting in the late 1970s and early 1980s.

但我觉得这很有趣，因为我认为，如果佐勒没有在1985年（最晚不迟于这一年）离开项目，而且如果他没有在九十年代中期至晚期患上帕金森病，他很可能会翻译《皮卡特里克斯》，而过去十年中占星魔法的复兴，或许会因为佐勒对这些内容的兴趣而提前发生，他很可能将它列为自己的翻译项目之一。

But I thought that was interesting because I definitely think, for example, if A, Zoller hadn't left the project later in, I think, by 1985, I think at the latest, and especially Zoller hadn't developed Parkinson's disease in the mid to late 1990s that he probably would have translated the Picatrix and that the whole revival of astrological magic that's happened over the course of the past decade or so, I think probably would have happened a little bit earlier, due to Zoller's interest in some of that stuff, and he probably would have made that one of his translations that he would have done.

但由于他的健康状况，我认为这在之后的多年里严重拖慢了他的进度。

But due to what happened with his health, I think that really set him back a lot in the in the subsequent years.

所以他确实影响了许多后来的占星师，这些人后来成为这场复兴的关键人物。

So he did end up influencing a number of later astrologers that then became pivotal in that revival.

例如，克里斯托弗·沃诺克在某种程度上受到了罗伯特·佐勒的影响，尽管我知道沃诺克也跟李·莱曼学习过。

So for example, Christopher Warnock, I think was influenced to some extent by Robert Zoller, although I know Warnock also studied with Lee Lehman.

所以当时存在着不同脉络的传统、中世纪和文艺复兴占星术，彼此交织重叠。

So there were different threads of like traditional and and medieval and Renaissance astrology going on different overlapping things.

我知道，例如本·戴克斯是罗伯特·佐勒的学生，海伦娜·阿瓦拉尔和路易斯·里贝罗撰写了关于传统占星术的重要入门著作，他们也是罗伯特·佐勒的学生。

But I know, for example, Ben Dykes was a student of Robert Zoller's, Helena Avalar and Luis Ribeiro who wrote a very important sort of introductory text on traditional astrology were students of Robert Zoller.

因此，他确实影响了不同的人，尤其是过去一二十年间占星魔法的复兴，这一点很有意思。

So he did influence different people and it's interesting seeing the revival of astrological magic especially over the past decade or two.

但我觉得，佐勒本可以在这场复兴中扮演更重要的角色，因为他早在几十年前就开始研究《皮卡特里克斯》这类文本了。

But Zoller, I think, know, could have ended up playing a much more major role in that because he was going back and studying texts like the Picatrix and stuff like that decades before anybody else was.

而且他凭借自己的拉丁语背景，能够直接阅读拉丁文原典。

And was reading them in Latin due to his background in Latin or ability to read Latin, I should say.

我把拉丁语融入其中了。

I've laid it into Latin.

这是一个很有趣的问题，因为它揭示了这一传统的本质。

Well, this is an interesting question really because it it shows the nature of the tradition.

这部文本出自阿尔·金迪。

This text is by Al Kindi.

他是九世纪的一位阿拉伯哲学家，将希腊文本翻译成阿拉伯语。

He was a ninth century Arab philosopher who was translating Greek texts into Arabic.

而现存的只是这部作品的拉丁文译本，他的阿拉伯语原作已不复存在。

And this is a Latin translation, which is all that survives his Arabic work.

对他而言，这是一部原创作品，但其内容基于他对其他希腊著作的翻译。

It was an original work for him, but it was based on his Greek translations of other works.

因此，你能看到知识从希腊传到阿拉伯，再从阿拉伯回传到拉丁世界，这非常有趣。

So it's interesting that you see the actual transmission of knowledge from the Greeks to the Arabs, from the Arabs back to the Latin.

而且

And

所有这些过程中必然存在一个问题：你所找到的文本，经过多种语言的转译后，已经改变了原本的含义。

there must be, one of the problems in all of this must be that you're finding things that the translations through multiple languages have altered what the originals were.

是的。

Yes.

在某些情况下，中间语言虽然可能保留了原概念的部分含义，并进一步被翻译成英语，但却完全失去了与原始含义的联系。

In some cases, it appears that the intermediate language, even though it may have shared part of the original meaning of the concept and what was further translated into English, it lost all connection with the original.

这种情况发生在希腊词 zodion 上。

This happens in the Greek term zodion.

我们有单词 zodiac，它与这个词有关。

We have the word zodiac, which is related to this.

这是对应黄道十二宫符号的希腊词。

That's the Greek word that corresponds to sign sign on the zodiac.

通过将 zoideon 翻译成拉丁语 signum，再由 signum 翻译成 sign，我们完全失去了希腊词原有的语义场。

And through the Latin translation of the word zoideon into signum and signum into sign, we've lost all contact with the original semantic field of the Greek word.

它已经完全消失了。

It's totally gone.

我们再也无法与之建立联系。

We have no contact.

你正在

Are you in a

所以那是一个重要的点，而他对此就只说了这么多，但这很有趣，因为对施密特后来来说，这成了一个非常重要的事情。

So that was a big and that's all he ends up saying about that, but which is interesting because that became such a big thing for Schmidt later.

但他回过头来翻译占星传统中最古老的文本，其主要动机之一是，尤其是施密特，他受到这样一个观念的驱动：在过去两千年里，占星家们一直在玩一种‘传话游戏’，不同地区对这个游戏的叫法不同。

But his large part of his motivation for going back and translating the earliest astrological texts that they could find in the horoscopic astrological tradition is that they were motivated, especially Schmidt was motivated by this idea that astrologers for the past two thousand years had been playing this game telephone or I guess it's called different things in different regions.

当一群孩子围成一圈，第一个孩子在开始时悄悄把一个秘密或一个词 whispered 到旁边孩子的耳朵里，然后那个孩子再悄悄传给下一个，如此继续下去。

But when a group of kids sits around in a circle and one of them at the beginning of the circle whispers a secret or whispers a word into the ear of one kid and then they whisper it into the ear of the kid next to them and then they pass it on to the next one.

当信息传到圈尾时，最初说的内容、句子或词语已经完全变了，有时甚至被扭曲得面目全非。

And by the time it gets to the end of the circle, what was said or the sentence or the word is completely different or sometimes mangled compared to what was said at the beginning.

这正是施密特特别强调的占星传统中的问题：有时你会遇到一些文本或词语，它们最初用一种语言（比如古希腊语）写成，然后被翻译成拉丁语，再翻译成阿拉伯语，接着又转回拉丁语，最后再翻译成某种欧洲语言，比如英语。

And that's kind of the issue and something that Schmidt especially emphasized in the astrological tradition is sometimes you would have these texts or sometimes you would have these words where it would start out in one language, let's say ancient Greek, and then it would get translated into Latin, and then it would get translated into Arabic, and then it would get translated back into Latin, and then it would get translated into some European language like English.

你所谈论的是一个跨越两千年、从一种语言到另一种语言、从一种文化到另一种文化的传递链条，每一次翻译，都会有一些内容被添加，也会有一些内容被丢失。

So you're talking about this chain of transmission that's going from language to language and culture to culture over two thousand years and that every time something is translated, there are some things that are added and there are other things that are lost.

但尤其是词语本身，要保持其原始含义或多重含义非常困难，因为一个词有时并不只代表一个单一的意思，而可能同时包含五到十个相关的含义，这些含义在理解该词在概念上的完整语境时都至关重要。

But especially the words themselves, it's hard to maintain sometimes the original meaning or range of meanings because sometimes a single word will not just mean one singular thing, but sometimes a word can mean like five or 10 different things that are all relevant in some way to understanding the full context of what that word is supposed to refer to conceptually.

但每次翻译时，含义都会进一步受限和收窄，到了翻译过程的终点，可能已经无法保留原有的意义范围。

But each time you translate it, it gets constricted and narrowed down further and further so that it may not retain the same range of meanings by the time you get to the end of that translation process.

一个明显而具体的例子是多罗西厄斯的文本，我们目前所拥有的版本——至少是基本完整保存下来的那个主要版本——多罗西厄斯写于公元一世纪。

So an obvious actual very tangible example of that is the text of Dorotheus of Sidon where what we have of that text or at least the main version of it that survived in its near entirety, Dorotheus wrote in the first century.

而我们现在看到的是英文译本，它源自阿拉伯语译本，而阿拉伯语译本又来自波斯语译本，再往上追溯则是从原始希腊语文本翻译而来，而原始希腊语文本原本是以诗歌形式写成的。

And what we have is an English translation of a Arabic translation of a Persian translation of a translation from the original Greek text, and the original Greek text was written in the form of a poem.

因此，当文本传到这一阶段时，虽然仍能辨认出它源自原文，但语言上已经产生了大量偏差，许多内容被改动、添加或遗失。

So the text once you get to that point is while still recognizable as being derived from the original, there's a lot of drift in the language once you get to that point and a lot of things that are sometimes changed and either added or lost.

因此，这个项目的核心部分——最初整个‘视野计划’的理念——就是回到原始语言，直接从这些原始语言进行翻译，并在译成英文时尽可能忠实地保留原文的词汇和术语。

So a big part of this project, the entire Project Hindsight in the beginning was the idea of going back to the original languages and then translating directly from those original languages and trying to maintain the words and the terminology as close as possible when rendering into English.

这一点尤其被施密特强调过，因此在这里看到他早期在公开访谈中对这一理念的初步表述，显得格外有趣，因为这后来成为他工作中最核心的部分之一。

And this was something that Schmidt emphasized especially, so it's interesting here seeing his first, sort of statements about that in a public interview and something that would become such a core piece of of his work in later years.

鲍勃，当你把希腊语原文翻译成英文，而他却从拉丁语衍生版本翻译时，你可能会发现两者之间的差异。

Bob, gonna be overlapping any translations where you might translate something from the original Greek and he translates it from a Latin derivative and find find out what that gap

是什么？

is?

我们尽量避免重复Gender的工作，但一直在保持联系，互相核对进展。

Well, we're trying to stay away from duplicating gender's efforts, but we are in contact all the time comparing notes.

例如，在我们开始这次拍摄前，我们刚讨论过一个情况：拉丁语的中世纪传统中提到，一颗行星位于另一颗行星的‘界’内。

For instance, just before we started this filming, were talking about a situation where the Latin term tradition, Latin medieval tradition, speaks about a planet being in somebody's term, some other planet's term.

但巴赫发现，希腊文中对‘界’的提及始终使用复数形式。

But Bach has found that the reference to the terms in Greek is always in the plural.

一颗行星位于若干度范围内，即处于另一颗行星的界内。

A planet in so many degrees is in terms of another planet.

因此，这类细微差别最终都需要仔细审视。

So there are some subtleties of that sort that have to be looked at ultimately.

此外，罗布刚才提到的‘theotokatomoria’，本质上是十三谐波，在中世纪体系中很可能被处理为拉丁语中对‘Guatasamsa’、‘Duodecima’或‘Duodenas’的等价表达，具体取决于翻译，都只是对位置的12倍放大。

Also, of the things that Rob just mentioned, theotokatomoria, which is basically a thirteenth harmonic, may very well turn out to be handled in the medieval system as the Lat equivalent of the Guatasamsa or the Duodecima or the Duodenas, depending on the translation, being just a 12 fold multiplication of the position.

在某些重叠案例中，例如，

There are a few cases of interest in overlap, where, for example, a

阿布·马沙尔的一个词，对我而言非常重要。

word by Abu Ma'shar, very important for me.

我们最终会有一个阿拉伯语版本。

We will have an Arabic crack eventually.

我们目前还没有实现，但非常重要。

We don't have it working yet, but very important.

在中世纪，一些基于希腊材料的阿拉伯语著作，曾多次被重新翻译回希腊语。

In the medieval times, some of those works in Arabic, even though they were based on Greek material, got translated back into Greek at different times.

因此，可能存在一些希腊语的片段，有助于我们了解其他文献的内容。

So there may be bits and fragments of Greek material that would be helpful for even finding out what was in other tracts.

有时从希腊语翻译成阿拉伯语，有时又从阿拉伯语再翻回希腊语，有时则是拉丁语。

Sometimes it would be translated from Greek into Arabic, and sometimes from Arabic into Greek again, and then sometimes it's Latin.

因此存在各种复杂的重叠情况。

So there are all kinds of confusing overlaps.

在大多数情况下，我们会翻译一些重要的著作。

In most cases, we would translate a very important work.

例如，一些阿布·巴克尔的拉丁语著作。

For example, some of Abu Bakr's works in Latin.

罗伯特·佐勒会翻译这些内容，即使阿拉伯文文本可能得以保存。

Robert Zoller would translate that even though Arabic text might survive.

可能后来会翻译阿拉伯文，因为原始的拉丁文译本本身就已经极为重要。

Might have later translated Arabic because the original Latin translation itself would have been so important.

历史上，人们会

Historically, people would

从这些译本中学习，而不是

have learned from that rather than

直接从原始的阿拉伯文原文学习。

the original Arabic.

但接着我们会翻译阿拉伯文，以便与这本书真正的内容进行对比。

But then we would do the Arabic so that we could make a comparison with the actual truth of the book you might say.

你期望这种做法

Do you expect this

所以这实际上是他们后来会继续推进的事情，比如施密特在1999年、2000年或2001年左右翻译了阿布·马沙尔关于太阳回归的一部著作，他依据的是希腊文译本——而这个希腊文译本又是中世纪晚期某人从阿拉伯文翻译过来的，而阿布·马沙尔最初在九世纪写作时用的正是阿拉伯文。

So that's actually something they would actually later follow through on where, for example, one of Schmidt's later translations, think in like 1999 or 2000 or 2001, he translated part of Abu Ma'shar's book on solar returns, which he translated it from a Greek translation where somebody in the late Middle Ages had translated it from Arabic, which is the language Abu Ma'shar originally wrote it in in the ninth century.

施密特将其翻译了，这段文字是从阿拉伯语翻译成希腊语的。

And Schmidt translated it and that text was translated from Arabic into Greek.

然后施密特将希腊语版本翻译成了英语，因为希腊语是施密特精通的主要古代语言。

And then Schmidt translated the Greek version into English, because Greek was the primary ancient language that Schmidt knew.

尽管他也懂拉丁语，并且会几种现代欧洲语言，比如法语、德语和英语，因为施密特在语言方面确实非常出色。

Although he also knew, Latin, and he spoke a few different modern European languages like French and German and, English, because Schmidt was just really good with languages.

他有双子座月亮，有些人天生就有语言天赋，而有些人没有，施密特就是那种具有语言天赋的人。

He had a Gemini moon and he had a real some people just have a knack for languages while others don't, and Schmidt was somebody that had a knack for languages.

但不管怎样，施密特后来确实履行了这一承诺，翻译了一些其他中世纪晚期的文本，这很有趣，因为他曾做出过这样的表述。

But anyways, Schmidt would later It's interesting that he makes this statement because he would later fulfill or make good on that promise by translating some of these other later medieval texts.

关于太阳回归的这段文本，自那以后，像本杰明·戴克斯这样的人已经从阿拉伯语重新翻译了它，所以我们现在有了两个版本。

And that text on solar revolutions since that time has been translated from, I think, from the Arabic by others like, Benjamin Dykes, for example, so that now we have both.

这其实很重要，因为它让我们能够理解和重建一些历史细节，比如不同占星师在宫位划分上的使用方式，以及为何从阿拉伯传统转向了同时使用整宫制和 quadrant 宫位制。

And that's actually important because it allows us to understand and reconstruct some historical things about, for example, the use of house division by, different astrologers and like why there was a shift from the Arabic tradition where they were using, evidently using whole sign houses and quadrant houses at the same time.

例如，在本迪克斯的译本中，他指出阿布·马沙尔同时提到了使用这两种宫位划分系统。

And we see, for example, in Bendix translations, he points out how Abu Ma'shar is talking about using both of those systems of house division at the same time.

但后来，当这些文本传到文艺复兴传统时，我们看到完全转向了四分宫系统，而整个符号宫系统则被遗忘或丢失了。

But then eventually, when those texts get passed off to the Renaissance tradition, we see this sort of complete shift just to quadrant houses and this sort of loss or this forgetting about whole sign houses.

其中一个可能的原因是，阿布·马沙尔关于太阳运行的文本的希腊语版本与阿拉伯语译本之间有时存在差异。

And one of the things that may have happened is that there are differences sometimes in the Greek version of Abu Ma'shar's text on solar revolutions versus the Arabic translation.

因此，不仅有必要将原始文本从其原始语言翻译成英文，有时还需要同时对这些文本的其他古代或传统译本进行细致研究，这一点非常重要。

And that's one of the reasons why it's then valuable not just to have translations into English of the original texts in their original languages, but also sometimes to do detailed studies of some of the other ancient or traditional translations of those texts as well at the same time.

有趣的是，施密特现在就已经意识到这个问题并立下了目标，他几乎在十年后实现了这一目标。

So it's just interesting that Schmidt's aware of that issue right now and setting an intention, and he would later fulfill that intention almost a decade later.

那么，这些工作会对学术界产生影响吗？例如，将古希腊文献首次翻译成其他语言，真的会有非占星学者对这些译本感兴趣吗？

Work to have repercussions in the scholarly community, for example, having works translated from ancient Greece that have never been translated before, that there are actually people who are not astrologers who would be interested in these translations?

实际上有两个不同的群体

Well, there are two different communities

在占星学之外会对这些材料感兴趣

outside of astrology that would be interested

对这些材料感兴趣。

in this material.

第一组，我相信我们会引起他们的注意。

One group, I am sure we will attract attention of.

另一组我们可能会引起他们的注意。

The other one we may attract the attention of.

传统的古典学者是第二组我们可能会引起注意的人。

Conventional classes classical scholars is the second group we may attract the attention of.

是的。

Yeah.

我们可能会引起他们的注意，但我并不指望这一点，如果发生的话会很有趣，但这并不是我们的主要关注点。

That we may attract the attention of, but I'm not we're not really counting on that, and that will be interesting if it happens, but it is our primary concern.

然而，另一组是研究象征主义、原型形式、心理治疗师、创意艺术家等领域的学生，我认为这些人会比正统的学术界更快地产生兴趣，因为他们更关注材料的质量，而不是来源。

The other group, however, is people who are students of symbolism, students of archetypal forms, psychotherapists, creative artists, this kind of these areas, these people I think will be interested much more rapidly than the orthodox academic community because they are more concerned with the quality of the material than they are at source.

那

And what

就学术界而言，我觉得这是一个有趣的评论，因为他们简要地谈到了这个项目可能会如何被学术界接受。

So in terms of the academic community, I thought that was an interesting comment because, they talked briefly briefly basically about how the project might be received by the academic community.

确实，有些《前景计划》的译本影响了一些古典学者，他们后来在自己的某些著作中引用了《前景计划》的译本，因此在一定程度上确实产生了影响。

And it's true that some of the Project Hindsight translations did influence some classic scholars who then cited some of the Project Hindsight translations in some of their later works so that there was some influence to a certain extent there.

但总的来说，据我回忆与施密特交往时的印象，他在晚年强调，最终资助这个项目的是占星界。

But for the most part though, Schmidt, in later years, from what I remember in interacting with him, emphasized that it was really the astrological community that funded the project in the end.

不是学术界，而是普通的占星师们每月捐出一些钱，用来订阅翻译系列，或购买录音、捐款，或其他类似的支持方式。

It wasn't the academic community, it was just like everyday astrologers who were chipping in however much it was a month in order to subscribe to the translation series or who bought recordings or made donations or other things like that.

所以这个项目实际上是被占星界资助的，并且主要影响了占星界。

So it really was funded by the astrological community and primarily impacted the astrological community.

而且，这其中也有不同的原因，因为他们做了初步的翻译工作。

And, you know, there's also different reasons for that because they did the preliminary translations.

他们只印了少量的版本，但后来由于从未完成最终的翻译系列，除了《安提俄库斯》这一本书之外，其他都没有出版，这限制了其影响力，也限制了这些文本在后续年份中的传播和认知度。

They did them on limited print runs, but then because they never did the final translation series, because they never produced that except for one book which was Antiochus, I think that limited the impact and it limited the exposure of the texts and the awareness of the texts I think in subsequent years.

因此，近年来这种情况得到了弥补，尽管《前景计划》的活动焦点主要集中在20世纪90年代中期，当时他们出版了大约30部译本，主要来自古希腊语和拉丁语的古代占星文献。

And so that's kind of been made up for in recent years because there've been Even though the the focal point of activity for Project Hindsight was really in the mid nineteen nineties where they produced, I think, something like 30 translations of texts from primarily from Greek and Latin of ancient astrological texts.

就实际翻译项目的产出而言，这构成了翻译工作的主体。

That was the majority in terms of the actual translation project of the output that was produced in terms of translations.

幸运的是，在过去三十年里，有一些其他学者接过了Project Hindsight未完成的工作。

Luckily, there have been other scholars over the course of the past thirty years that have come in and kind of picked up where Project Hindsight left off.

比如本杰明·戴克斯翻译了许多文本，最近还有莱万特·拉斯洛的Horai项目，他在Patreon上通过众筹翻译大量古希腊占星文本，你可以订阅支持。

Know, people like Benjamin Dykes who've translated a bunch of texts, More recently, Levant Laszlo with his Horai project which is on Patreon where he's basically crowdfunding the translation of a bunch of ancient Greek astrological texts and you can sign up for it.

他基本上每周或每两周就会发布一个新的翻译，一完成就立刻在Patreon上放出。

Basically every time he puts out a new translation about once a week or two, he just releases it immediately on Patreon.

他正在做一种现代版的Project Hindsight，只是借助互联网来实现。

So he's doing like a modern version kind of what what they were doing with Project Hindsight but using the internet to do it.

在过去三十年里，也出现了一些其他学术性的翻译，比如马克·雷利翻译的《维塔斯·瓦伦斯》。

And there've also been other academic translations of a number of different texts over the course of the past thirty years like Mark Reilly's translation of Vitis Valens.

《莫内托》也已经有了译本。

There's been a translation of Monetho.

詹姆斯·霍尔登在2000年代和2010年代出版了大量他翻译的希腊语、拉丁语和阿拉伯语文本，主要是希腊语和拉丁语文本。他一生中大约四十年都在做翻译，但一直只是私下流传。

James Holden came in in the 2000s and 2010s and he published a huge amount of translations that he had done of different Greek and Latin and Arabic texts, well, primarily Greek Arab Greek and Latin texts where he'd just been making translations for something like forty or fifty years of his life, but he was just circulating them privately.

直到他生命最后十年，这些译作才突然由美国占星联合会全部出版。

And it wasn't until the last ten years of his life that all of a sudden he got all these translations published through the American Federation of Astrologers.

有时，他们翻译的是此前从未被翻译过的文本，或者在某些情况下，是Project Hindsight曾经翻译过的文本，比如保卢斯·亚历山大里努斯，但他们发布的是霍尔登最终完成的版本，并通过亚马逊等在线零售商广泛发行，使其更容易获取。

And this was sometimes translating texts that had never never been translated before or in some instances, were like ones that Project Hindsight had done like Paulus Alexandrinus, but but they were actually publishing Holden's finished final version of that translation and they were making it available through online retailers like amazon.com and other things like that so that they're widely available.

而Project Hindsight的译本仅限于少量印刷，之后再也没有重新出版过，部分原因是施密特似乎一直想完成最终的翻译系列，他可能不喜欢早期译本的初步性质，因为这些译本未能反映他后期的思想，或者他意识到早期译本中存在一些错误或疏漏。

Whereas the Project Hindsight translations were produced on a limited print run and then they were never republished again after that in those print versions partially because Schmidt I think always wanted to to do the final translation series and he maybe didn't like the preliminary nature of a lot of the early translations because they didn't reflect his later thinking or because he was aware of some errors or mistakes in the earlier translations and different things like that.

因此，他一直推迟重新出版这些译本，理由是他会推出最终的翻译系列，但他最终只完成了一卷最终系列，即2009年出版的《雅典的安提俄库斯》，此后再也没有出版过任何其他书籍。

So he always put off like republishing them basically, under the premise that he would do the final translation series, but then he only ended up producing one volume of the final translation series which was Antiochus of Athens in 2009 and then no further books were ever published.

所以，这里有个复杂的情况：一方面，Project Hindsight在上世纪九十年代短短几年内就翻译了大量文本，但另一方面，它也推动或启动了一项后续工作——过去三十年里，许多其他占星家、历史学家和译者都参与其中，如今这已演变为一种更广泛的集体努力，或由众多不同人士共同参与的事业，而不再像九十年代初那样，由一个单一项目集中推进。

So, yeah, there's a tricky thing where on the one hand, Project Hindsight produced a huge amount of texts in a very short span of time of just like a few years in the nineteen nineties, but then, it helped to kick start or it helped to launch something, that then there have been a lot of other astrologers and historians and translators that have taken part in over the course of the past thirty years so that it's become much more of either a community effort or it's become something where many different people are participating in it at this point and it's not necessarily as centralized as it was at this stage in the early 1990s where you have this singular project of people that are trying to do it.

即便在九十年代初，也已有其他人在Project Hindsight之外从事类似的工作，因为文艺复兴占星术的复兴早在八十年代中期已在英国开始，当时人们已对威廉·利利等文艺复兴时期占星家的文本，以及此前学者们翻译的马尼利乌斯和费尔米库斯·马特努斯等早期著作产生了浓厚兴趣。

And even with that, in the early 1990s, were other people that were working along similar lines outside of Project Hindsight because the revival of Renaissance astrology had already begun in the mid 1980s in The UK and there was already a lot of excitement of people going back and reading the text of William Lilly and other Renaissance astrologers as well as other earlier translations that were available from Manilius and Firmicus Maternus that other academics had done at that point.

因此，Project Hindsight在九十年代成为焦点，推动了人们对希腊化占星术的兴趣，而在此之前，这种兴趣几乎为零。

So Project Hindsight became the focal point in the 1990s and it helped to kickstart, the interest especially in Hellenistic astrology which hadn't had much interest up to that point.

但此后三十年间，这一领域迅速发展，如今在占星界的声音已远比当初刚起步时更加突出。

But then it's sort of taken off over the past thirty years and become this much larger thing, and it's become a much more prominent voice in the astrological community than it than it was back then when they started.

这些译本是否会揭示此前未知的思维模式？

Indications Will they be of breed patterns of thought that were not known before?

哦

Oh,

实际上要艺术得多。

actually much more more artistic than that.

例如，《皮卡特里克斯》和《赫尔墨斯之书》都包含图像，以及对黄道各部分图像表现的描述，这些能让你通过完全非智力、非线性、非理性的途径进入象征意义。

For example, the Picatrix and Liber Hermetas both have pictures, descriptions of picture representations of sections of the zodiac, which allow you to get into the symbolism through completely non intellectual, non linear, non rational means.

你只需看着这些图像，让它们在你的脑海中产生共鸣。

You just simply, you know, look at the pictures and sort of allow them to resonate in your mind.

这是一种非常新时代风格的方法，当然，它早在两千多年前就已经出现了。

It's very new age kind of approach and except, of course, it was done over two thousand years ago.

还有另一类学者，我想你可能也会感兴趣。

There's one other class of scholars who I think will probably also be interested in.

这些文本中有一些——不是全部——比如《赫尔墨斯之书》开篇就列出了罗伯特所提及的三十位分星神。

Some, not all, but some of these texts, for instance, the Libra Hermetas, at the very beginning, contains this list of decans to which Robert is referring.

这份列表本身将每一个分星神与特定的神名联系在一起。

And it is the list itself associates a particular god name with each of these decans.

这些神名大多是闪米特语的神名，而不是埃及神名。

These god names are, for the most part, Semitic god names, not Egyptian god names.

比如，白羊座的第一个分宫与一个名叫萨巴霍特的神相关。

So we run across the first decan of Aries, for instance, is associated with a goddamn goddamn guy named Sabahot.

我们还发现了一个Yaus，这显然是Yowen的讹变。

The we also find a Yaus, which is clearly a corruption of Yowen.

特别是从事诺斯替主义研究的学者们会注意到这一点，并看到占星术与诺斯替运动之间的相互关联。

Now scholars that are working in the field of Gnosticism in particular are gonna take note of this sort of thing and see its relative interlinking between the astrological and the Gnostic movements.

这在某种程度上是正确的。

Which is kind of true.

关于这一点已经有一些讨论。

There's been some discussion of that.

我不认为它必然受到《视野计划》的影响，但过去十年或二十年里，关于诺斯替主义对占星术的吸收已经出现了许多有趣的研究。

I don't think it was necessarily influenced by Project Hindsight, but there have been a lot of interesting work on Gnostic, incorporations of astrology over the past ten or twenty years.

有一位我非常欣赏的学者，名叫阿普里尔·达科尼克，她就这个主题写过一些非常有趣的文章。

There's one scholar I really like named April Daconic who's written some really interesting papers on this topic.

我今年早些时候在考虑做一期关于占星术和诺斯替主义的播客节目。

I was thinking earlier this year about doing a podcast episode on astrology and Gnosticism at some point.

所以如果你们觉得这个主题有趣，或者希望我做这个内容，请在评论区告诉我。

So let me know in the comments if you would find that interesting or if that's something I should do.

这个

This

接下来是剪掉的现场片段。

goes on to cutting the room floor.

这简直是人生的噩梦。

This is a nightmare in life.

没错。

True.

那么，今天我们现场的观众有没有什么问题想问鲍勃们？

So do we have do we have any questions from our audience here today that you'd like to address to the Bobs?

来自鲍勃们。

From the Bobs.

你觉得持续了多久

Long do you think

你看，他们似乎有一群观众。

See, it's like they had some sort of audience.

但人数不多。

It wasn't very big.

可能只有五到十个人，因为在另一个视频里人更多。

It was probably just five or 10 people because in another video, there's more.

但我真的很想知道这个活动到底是什么。

But I'd really like to know what this event was.

看起来像是某种非正式的活动。

It seems like it was some sort of casual event.

也许是来自伯克利斯普林斯的本地占星师，可能有个占星团体，因为我觉得这基本上是在吉恩的客厅里举行的。

Maybe it was with local astrologers from Berkeley Springs, maybe there's an astrology group because I think this was happening in Jeanne's living room, basically.

但我还是想更多了解这个活动，如果有人知道任何相关信息的话。

But I would like to more know more about this event still, if anybody happens to know anything about it.

其中一个福利就是你要负责翻译。

One of the of the treats is that you're going to be translating.

是的。

Yes.

我认为在十二月，你的福利将会是天气预测。

Sometime I believe in your December your December treat is going to be on weather prediction.

在我看来，你完全可以找到一群非常兴奋的人，因为你真的上了名单，还有其他所有人。

And it seems to me that you could find an entire group of people very excited that you actually came on the list and everybody else.

我的意思是，天气在美国是个大生意。

I mean, weather is big, big business in America.

电视上有一个专门的天气频道。

There's a whole weather channel on TV.

你觉得自己会被邀请去做早间天气预报吗？

Do you see yourself being invited on to do the morning weather?

谁知道我会不会有这个机会呢

Who knows if I would have

这个大家都知道吗？

known to that?

我可不打算屏息等待。

I wouldn't care to hold my breath waiting.

然而，这里有大量材料，从历史角度来看，对从事天气预测的人而言可能非常重要。因为早在与柏拉图同时代的古希腊人，即使他们并未进行占星术意义上的黄道占星，也显然将气象事件和基本天气与固定恒星的位置，尤其是这些恒星在地平线上的出没联系起来。

However, there is material here which could just, historically speaking, be important for people doing weather prediction because there's a you the real early Greeks, we're talking about the Greeks contemporary with Plato, were even if they may have not been doing astrology in the horoscopic of the horoscopic variety, were clearly correlating meteorological events and the basic weather with the positions of the fixed stars, particularly the horizon and settings of those stars.

而托勒密的这项研究，将在今年晚些时候面世，其中包含一份目录或日历，将亚历山大历法的每一天都与特定的天气预测相关联——例如在解冻日（即他们新年的第一天），你可以预期在某一纬度风会开始吹起，而在另一些地方则会出现雷电等等。

And this work by Ptolemy, which will appear toward the end of this year, in fact contains a catalog or calendar in which every day of the Alexandrian year is correlated to a certain weather prediction on the first day of thaw, which was the beginning of their year, you can expect that the winds will begin to blow at a certain latitude, whereas there'll be thunder and lightning over here and so forth.

这些实际上是古希腊顶尖天文学家经过数个世纪积累的实证观察。

Now, these were actually empirical observations that have been compiled over a number of centuries by leading Greek astronomers.

与大多数学者所认为的相反，古代的主要天文学家，如欧多克斯、喜帕恰斯等人，其主要目标正是将基本天气模式与恒星位置，特别是恒星的电磁出没现象联系起来。

Contrary to what most of the academics would believe, were the primary astronomers of ancient times, Eudoxus, Hipparchus, and so forth, were all trying to correlate the basic weather patterns with positions of the stars, particularly the electromagnetic setting.

因此，这类材料如此丰富，至少可以与现代天气模式进行对比。

And so there's so much of this material that it at least could be compared to modern weather patterns.

然而，我们必须意识到，现代环境和现代天气模式已不再仅仅受自然事件影响，因为烟囱以及各种其他人为因素正在干扰自然模式。

However, we would have to realize that the modern environment, the modern weather patterns are not solely influenced by natural events anymore because of smoke stacks and all kinds of other things that are interfering with the natural pattern.

所以你必须对这类因素进行修正。

So you would have to compensate for anything like that.

此外，可能只是气候变化之类的原因。

Plus, it may have just been climate changes and whatnot.

但希腊人曾以某种规律性和精确性进行过这些观测，这让我们觉得或许值得重新研究一下。

But yet the fact that the Greeks did this with some regularity and some precision leads us to think that maybe this should be looked into again.

但就连托勒密自己也说，这种天象气象预测需要补充更多关于行星的资料。

But even Ptolemy himself said that it needed to be supplemented This celestial weather predicting needed to be supplemented with actually more planetary material.

我们需要确定在恒星与日出日落对齐的同时，主要行星的位置在哪里。

We needed to determine where major planets were at the same time as the stars were aligned with rising and setting.

也许叙利亚人和以色列人会对这种教学方式感兴趣。

Maybe the Syrians and the the people in Israel would be interested in the teaching way.

他们可能会。

They might.

我有个问题，或者我不确定这是否相关。

I I have a question or I don't know if it's relevant or not.

我一直以来听说教会父老们总是使用占星家之类的，后来这种做法才获得了某种声誉。

I was always told or kind of heard that the church fathers always used astrologers and so on and then it found this repute at some point.

您的学术研究是否有可能重新赋予那些曾为古代教皇提供咨询的占星家以尊重或荣誉呢？

Would your scholarly work by any chance give respect again or honor to the astrologers that may have advised popes in ancient times or not?

一般来说，

Generally speaking, the

“教会父老”这个术语指的是基督教早期时期，即最初的几个世纪。

term church fathers refers to the early Christian period, the first few centuries

早期的

of the early

基督教时期。

Christian period.

而教皇们当然是另一些人。

And the popes, of course, were separate guys.

十五世纪和十六世纪的教皇们确实会使用占星家。

The popes in the fifteenth century and sixteenth century did use astrologers.

例如，卢卡·戈尔贡曾预测亚历山德罗·法尔内塞将升任教皇，并因这一准确预测而被任命为意大利双海主教。

And for instance, Luca Gorgon predicted the ascension to the cathedral, to the papacy of Alessandro Farnese, and was made Bishop of Two Seas in Italy as a result of the successful prediction.

但据我所知，自那以后，这种做法并不普遍，而且中世纪教皇使用占星师本身也并非什么大事。

But it isn't something which is generally done, as far as I know, since that time, nor was it a big deal for popes to use astrologers in the Middle Ages per se.

尽管有些教皇本身就是占星师，或者至少对数学和占星术有着浓厚的兴趣。

Although some of the popes were astrologers, or at least were fascinal enough in the mathematics and astrology to be so.

热贝尔，即后来的西尔维斯特二世，就是其中之一，据传他是一位占星师教皇，也有人声称他

Gerber, who became Sylvester II, is one of these fellows who's reputed to have been a pope who was an astrologer, and also by some who claimed to

是一位魔法师

be a magician

。

as well.

就我们正在做的工作而言，我们希望能在占星师群体中提升占星术的标准，并让公众普遍意识到，占星术远比人们通常认为的要丰富得多。

As far as what we're doing, it's hoped that what we can do is bring about a certain elevation in the standard of astrology among astrologers and make people in general public realize that there was far more to astrology and is far more to astrology than is generally thought to be the case.

或许这将有助于使占星术成为一门被接受的科学。

Perhaps that will have the effect of raising astrology to a an acceptable science.

也许会吧。

Perhaps it will.

但至少它肯定会提升占星术的质量。

But at least it will certainly make better astrology.

这是一个非常重要的观点，因为我确实认为他们帮助实现了这一点，即提升了占星界的标准。

That's a super important point because I do think that's something that they helped to or were part of accomplishing is helping to sort of raise the standards in the astrological community.

我昨天还对此做了一个备注。

So I a note about this yesterday.

我写下了佐勒关于提升占星术标准的言论，以及他关于教皇的论述；这些一方面体现了这个项目的独特之处——这三位人物都对占星术的历史有着深厚兴趣，并将许多学术性很强的冷门话题带入了占星界，而这些话题在以往是占星师们通常不会讨论的。

I wrote Zoller's statements about raising the standards of astrology and his statements about the popes on the one hand demonstrates what was kind of unique about this project is that each of these three people had a deep interest in the history of astrology and a lot of kind of nerdy academic topics that they were bringing into the astrological community that astrologers didn't usually discuss up to this point.

尽管学术界已经对占星术的历史研究了一个世纪，但在当时，占星界内部对自身历史的研究却很少，除了像尼克·坎皮恩在20世纪80年代和90年代的著作等少数例外，以及他圈子中的其他人。

And while academics had been working on the history of astrology for a century at this point, not a lot of work had been done on the history of astrology in the astrological community itself at that point aside from occasional exceptions to that like the work of Nick Campion, for example, in the 1980s and 1990s, and and some others in his circle.

事实上，传统占星术的复兴本身直到20世纪80年代末和90年代初才在占星界刚刚起步。

So in fact, the traditional revival itself had only recently started in the late 80s and early 90s in the astrological community.

与此同时，还存在着一个类似的趋势：一些占星师试图重返学术界，攻读高级学位，以提升占星界内部的标准，并可能让公众更认可占星术的合法性。

And it was running somewhat in parallel to a similar movement where astrologers were trying to go back to academia and get advanced degrees in order to raise the standards within the astrological community and perhaps be seen as more legitimate by the general public.

就此而言，罗伯特·汉德本人几年后，在九十年代末或2000年初，确实重返校园，以十三世纪占星家吉多·博纳蒂的研究为主题完成了他的博士论文，并最终获得了学位。

And to that point, Robert Hand himself, for example, several years later, in the late nineties or February would actually go back to school to get his PhD with a dissertation on the work of the thirteenth century astrologer Guido Bonatti, which he eventually achieved.

因此，与此同时，随着‘远景计划’的资助，开普勒学院也成立了，这是一次尝试建立一所为占星师提供认证教育的学校，旨在进一步提升占星界的学术标准。

So additionally, at the same time that that project was being funded, at the same time of Project Hindsight, Kepler College was being founded as well, which was an attempt to create an accredited school for astrologers and again to raise the academic standards within the astrological community.

然而，这所学校仅维持了十年，开普勒学院最终失去了州级认证，因为当州政府面临压力时，他们意识到自己实际上完全批准了一所占星学校。

So that school would only last for ten years before Kepler would eventually lose their state accreditation because it was kind of like pulled out underneath them once the state started getting pressure, they realized they had fully authorized a school for astrology basically.

但开普勒学院及其他类似举措，代表了当时与古代占星复兴并行发展、并在某些方面又奇妙地相互关联的总体趋势。

But Kepler and other things represented part of a general movement at the time that ran parallel to and yet was also strangely interconnected in some ways with the revival of ancient astrology.

还有许多其他占星师在九十年代和2000年初也做了同样的事——重返校园，获得学位，就像罗伯特·汉德那样。

And there's numerous other examples of different astrologers who in the nineteen nineties and February did the same thing and went back to school and got their degrees just like Robert Hand did.

黛梅特拉·乔治就是其中之一，她在九十年代重返校园，学习古典学并获得了古典学硕士学位。

Demetra George was one person who went back to school and studied classics and got an MA in classics in the 1990s.

多里安·格林鲍姆也回去攻读并获得了博士学位。

Dorian Greenbaum went back and got her PhD.

尼古拉斯·坎皮恩同样重返校园，取得了他的博士学位。

Nicholas Campion went back and got his PhD.

莉兹·格林也做了同样的事。

Liz Green also did the same thing.

当时有很多不同的占星师都这么做了，这股潮流与传统占星术的复兴并行，有时相互关联，有时重叠，但有时也仅仅是并行发展。

There was just a lot of different astrologers that did that and it was kind of like running parallel to and sometimes connected, sometimes overlapping with the revival of traditional astrology, but sometimes just running in parallel to it.

但这一切都是过去三十年来提升占星界标准的努力的一部分，我认为这一努力在不同方面是成功的。

But it was all part of this effort, to raise the standards in the astrological community over the course of the past thirty years, which I do think was successful in different ways.

它可能并未在最高、最理想的目标上取得成功，即让占星术获得合法地位。

It may not have been successful in the highest, most idealistic goal of legitimizing astrology.

但我认为它发挥了双重作用：一方面提升了占星界内部的标准，促进了关于占星术历史、哲学和起源的更多讨论，使我们如今比三十年前更了解占星术的历史、来源及其原始原则。

But I do think it served the dual role of on the one hand raising the standards within the astrological community itself and creating more discussions about the history and philosophy and origins of astrology so that we know our history better, we know where astrology came from better and what its original principles were better nowadays than we did thirty years ago.

另一方面，它也促使更多占星师进入学术界，融入这些圈子，我认为这对诸多学术目的都有益处。

And then to some extent, it also got more astrologers into academia and moving in those circles, which I think is also beneficial for a number of different mainly academic reasons.

但是的，这使得比过去三十年或三十年前更多的人能够在学术环境中研究占星术。

But yeah, so that's allowed for more academic studies of astrology or more people to study astrology in an academic context than there were prior to the past thirty years or prior to thirty years ago.

因此，这一运动在某种程度上是成功的，它在某些方面改变了现状，即使它并未彻底改变一切，或目前尚未让占星术在学术界完全变得合法？

So that movement to some extent was successful in changing things in some ways even if it didn't change everything or at this point make astrology a completely legitimate thing in academia or something like that?

我们会发现占星师们需要去学习希腊哲学，拥有更广阔的世界观，以便吸收这些内容吗？

Will we find that astrologers are gonna need to go out and learn Greek philosophy and have a broader worldview so that they can absorb this material?

我不太愿意说每个占星师都必须去学习希腊哲学，但我认为希腊哲学的理解在占星界应该变得更加普及。

I would be a little reluctant to say that every astrologer has to go out and learn Greek philosophy, but I think an understanding of Greek philosophy needs to become much more widespread in the astrological community.

对柏拉图、亚里士多德、普罗提诺等人有透彻的了解，并不是日常咨询所必需的。

A thorough knowledge of Plato, Aristotle, Plotinus, or whomever is not exactly essential for a day to day counseling session.

但与此同时，如果占星师们在这些领域拥有更好的哲学基础，他们就不容易被怀疑论者、科学人士、揭穿者等牵着鼻子走——这些人之所以能难倒占星师，部分原因在于他们让占星师用现代世界观来运作，然后试图在这一框架内为占星术辩护；而正确的做法是，占星师应置身于现代世界观之外，采用更古老的视角，在这种视角下，占星术本身根本不是问题。

But at the same time, if astrologers had a better philosophical foundation in these areas, they might be less easily caught up by skeptics, scientific types, debunkers, and so forth, who basically trip astrologers up in part because they get the astrologer operating from the modern worldview, and then trying to defend astrology within it, where the correct practice is the astrologer will be operating outside of the modern worldview and in more ancient one in which astrology is not a problem.

是的，我认为这并不完全是这么回事。

Yeah, I would say that it's not so much a matter of it.

我认为在某种程度上这是对的。

And I think this is true to some extent.

我认为占星师们谈论占星术的方式，以及他们对占星术的构想确实发生了变化，部分原因在于像杰弗里·科尼利厄斯这样的占星师所做的一系列平行工作——他的著作《占星的时刻》于二十世纪九十年代初出版，并在九十年代中期以后广受欢迎，这本书普及并复兴了占星术的古代观念：即占星术是一种占卜形式，而非行星以射线直接作用于人的因果研究；相反，它更像是一种类似现代‘共时性’概念的因果占卜——尽管‘共时性’本身是一个完全不同的概念，甚至不能完全描述古代看待占星术作为占卜的方式。

I do think astrologers and the way that they talk about astrology and the way that they conceptualize it has changed, partially due to the work, again, like parallel work by astrologers like Jeffrey Cornelius in his book, The Moment of Astrology, which was being published in the early nineteen nineties and becoming really popular in the mid nineteen nineties forward, that popularized and and revived the ancient conceptualization of astrology, is that astrology is a form of divination and is not necessarily a study of celestial causation of the planets like zapping you with rays necessarily, but was instead seen more as a form of a causal divination similar to the modern conceptualization of synchronicity to some extent, although that's a whole other separate concept that in and of itself is not actually fully descriptive of the ancient approach to viewing astrology as divination.

所以我认为这是一个很好的观点：今天的占星师可能比以往更具备能力去应对、讨论和在怀疑论的语境中为占星术辩护。

So I think that's a good point that astrologers are probably better prepared today to be able to deal with and talk about and defend astrology in a skeptical context.

过去几年里，我一直在播客中尝试通过几期节目来展示这一点，我与怀疑者交谈并试图向他们解释占星术。

And that's something I've tried to demonstrate on the podcast over the past few years by doing a few episodes where I talk to and try to explain astrology to a skeptic.

如果你在我的频道上搜索一下，就会找到我做的几期类似节目，它们展示了如何以一种更具辩护性和易懂的方式解释占星术。

And if you just Google that on my channel, you'll find a couple of episodes that I did like that that kind of demonstrate how to explain astrology I think in a way that's a little bit more defensible and understandable.

那么，占星界的所有人都已充分准备好以这种方式为占星术辩护，或具备这种能力了吗？

So, is everybody in the astrological community fully prepared to defend astrology in that way or capable of?

不，不一定。

No, not necessarily.

这让我感到担忧，我认为我们仍需在这方面多下功夫，尤其是因为过去七年左右占星术经历了如此兴盛的时期。

That is something that makes me nervous that I think we do still need to work on a little bit especially because astrology has had such a heyday over the course of the past seven years or so.

但总有一天，这种热潮会消退，或者不会持续下去，也可能会出现对占星术更强烈的反对声音。

And at some point, that's gonna probably drop off or not last or there will probably be increased opposition to astrology at some point.

我认为占星师们应该比现在更充分地为这种情况做好准备，能够进行这类讨论。

And I do think astrologers should be a little bit more prepared for that than we probably are now and capable of having some of those discussions.

我认为，由于过去十年中对占星术的反对声音大幅减少，部分原因是怀疑者群体自身的问题，导致占星师们在与占星圈外的人交流、辩护或解释占星术时，可能没有达到应有的准备程度。

I do think there's certain ways that because the opposition to astrology has dropped off significantly over the past decade, partially due to issues in the skeptic community, that astrologers are a little bit not as prepared to talk about and defend or explain astrology to people outside of the astrological community than they could be.

但我认为，由于古代占星术的复兴，我们现在处于一个更好的位置，因为我们对这一学科的历史和概念起源有了更多了解，这使我们比三十年前的普通当代占星师更能全面地解释和谈论占星术。

But I think that's something where we're in a better position now through the revival of ancient astrology because now we know more about the history and the conceptual origins of the subject, which puts us in a better position to actually explain it and talk about it in its totality than a normal contemporary astrologer would have been like thirty years ago.

占星师应该被鼓励去学习这些东西。

Astrologers should be told to go out and study this stuff.

我认为这并不必要。

I don't think it's gonna be necessary.

我认为会发生的是，当他们看到正在发生的事情时，他们会自发地想去获取这些知识。

I think what's gonna happen is that when they see what's being done, they're gonna want to go out and get this stuff.

这将是一种自发的行动。

It's gonna be a spontaneous sort of an affair.

顺便说一下，这些书籍的注释中已经包含了大量相关内容。

There are already a great amount of that in the notes to these books, by the way.

所以你并不需要去专门上一门课。

So it's not as if you have to go take a course in it.

我的意思是，我们并不是在说要读完所有古代人的著作。

I mean, we're not talking about reading all the works of the ancients.

我的意思是，在某种程度上，这关乎向人们呈现主要概念，而这些概念会不断被提出和重申。

I mean, to some extent, it's a matter of presenting the the major concepts to people, which will be presented and re presented again and again.

我认为以这种方式，人们可以很容易地吸收这些内容。

And I think they can be assimilated very readily in that fashion.

事实上，让我明确一下立场：我建议他们不要去大学修习这些哲学课程，因为这些课程自十八、十九世纪以来就被系统性地扭曲了，完全误解了这些哲学的真正内涵。

As a matter of fact, let me take position, I want you to controversy on this couch, but I can come elsewhere, of saying that we strongly recommend they do not go out and take university academic courses in these philosophies because they have been systematically gutted by eighteenth and nineteenth century misunderstandings of what they really are about.

对他们来说，更好的方式是通过这些书籍接触这些哲学，然后去阅读原著，希望我们能引导他们选择更优质的译本，甚至未来我们自己提供译本。

What is actually much better for them to do is to encounter the philosophy through these books, and then go and read the original books, hopefully, with us steering them to be better rather than the worst translations, or maybe even at some point providing our own.

这样他们才能真正体验这些哲学在其原本语境中的面貌，而不被现代学者实证主义和唯物主义的偏见所过滤。

So they can actually experience the philosophy on its native ground without being read through the positivistic and materialistic biases of the modern scholars.

所以显而易见，

So obviously,

你们在做的

you who are doing

那只是一个随口一提，但其中确实有一点重要的东西，我也不知道该怎么解释，但项目‘远景’与学术界之间确实存在某种张力，他们所做的事情某种程度上是游离于学术圈之外的。

That was a throwaway comment, but there was something a little important there and I don't know how to explain it, but that there was a little bit of a tension with Project Hindsight with tensions between what they were doing was kind of outside of the academic community.

尽管他们大量借鉴了不同学术学者的研究成果和洞见，尤其是在科学史领域，但他们也非常清楚自己是在学术圈之外开展这项工作，既不期待学术界的支援，也不一定真正需要它。

Even though they were drawing on much of the scholarship and research and insight of different academic scholars, especially in the history of science, they also were very cognizant of the fact that they were doing this outside of academia and they didn't were neither expecting the support of academics nor were they necessarily wanting it per se.

但相反，他们把自己视为某种意义上的叛逆者，尤其是施密特，他一直有这种观点：自己在某种程度上是游离于学术体系之外的。

But instead, they viewed themselves, especially Schmidt had this thing about viewing themselves as renegades that were outside of academia to a certain extent.

但我一时找不到合适的表达方式来阐述这一点。

And I'm having trouble finding a way to articulate that.

但我认为汉德的这个评论很有意思，因为这将成为一个相当核心的观点，尤其是对施密特而言，但我想这一点在早期阶段就已经明显存在了：一方面，我刚刚谈到占星师进入学术界的问题，这在占星界本身也是一个类似的现象。

But I thought this comment by hand was interesting because that would become, a somewhat central thing, especially for Schmidt, but I think is is already there evidently at a at a relatively early stage in terms of on the one hand, I just had that discussion about, like, astrologers going into academia and how that was a parallel thing in the astrological community.

但这里存在一种张力，因为项目‘远见’和施密特尤其持有这样一种理念：学术界永远不会接受占星师，所以我们必须在占星传统和学术传统之外，独立创造属于我们自己的东西。

But there was a tension because Project Hindsight and Schmidt especially had this philosophy that academics would never accept astrologers and what we had to do was just create our own thing outside of the astrological outside of the academic tradition in the astrological tradition itself.

他非常重视建立我们自己的学校和课程，来教导人们如何思考。

And our own schools and our own programs for sort of teaching people how to think is something that he's very big on.

这本身可能就是一个独立的话题，值得讨论这种做法的利与弊，以及它哪些方面是明智的，哪些方面存在问题。

That's probably a whole topic in and of itself to talk about the pros and cons of that and some of the ways that that was a good idea and some of the ways that wasn't.

但有趣的是，在‘远见’项目的早期阶段，这种意识就已经萌芽了：他们意识到自己是在学术体系之外运作，并且也意识到了随之而来的种种利弊。

But it's interesting that already in this early stage of Project Hindsight, the seeds of that idea are there through an awareness that they are operating outside of an academic context and some of the pros and cons that come along with that.

翻译不仅仅是将希腊语中的某个词对应为英语中的某个词，你必须不仅是一位语言学家，还要是一位哲学家，才能理解其背景，同时也要懂占星术，才能将这一切融会贯通。

Translating, holding in your hand responsibility that goes far beyond saying that this word in Greek means this word in English, you must be versed as not only as linguist, but as philosophers to understand the background and as astrologers to understand how to put it all together.

因此，人们所获得的将不仅仅是古代典籍的字面翻译，而是一项真正卓越的作品，它将这些原始文本置于某种语境中，并加以解释和阐释。

So that what people are going to be getting is not just a literal translation of ancient books, but truly a remarkable work that takes these original works and puts them in some sort of context and explains and interprets them.

事实上，我们所有人都深入钻研哲学问题，并尽可能广泛地阅读原始文献。

As a matter of fact, all of us are quite steeped in philosophical issues and read widely in original sources to the extent that we could.

我认为，我们之前的训练使我们能够应对这些哲学问题。

I feel that our that our prior training really allows us to deal with these philosophical issues.

这非常重要，因为简而言之，Project Hindsight不仅仅关乎古代占星术的历史或技术，他们还试图复兴并向占星师们展示占星术早期的哲学基础，以及它如何与其他哲学流派和传统相联系。

So that's really important because basically the summary of that is that Project Hindsight wasn't just about the history or the techniques of ancient astrology, but they're also trying to revive and trying to show astrologers the earlier philosophical foundations of astrology and often how it was connected with other philosophical schools and traditions.

这一点对这些男性中的每一位都意义重大，尽管方式各异，有时独特，有时又相互重叠。

And that was actually a big thing for each of these men in different ways, in different and sometimes unique ways, but sometimes overlapping ways.

我们所有人都有一种奇特的优势，

We all have a curious strength that

这种优势在主流社会看来或许是缺陷，那就是我们的文化倾向于将专业化推向极致。

can probably be viewed by mainstream society's weakness, which is that it is a tendency of our culture to specialize to the nth degree.

老话说，专家就是知道得越来越多，范围却越来越窄，最后变成对什么都懂一点，但其实一无所知。

The old joke being a specialist a person knows more and more about less and less until finally, you know, it's everything about nothing.

而我们是通才。

Well, we're generalists.

我们掌握着广泛领域的知识，这种优势在于能够纵观全局，看到各领域之间的互动与相互影响，而不会有人对你说：‘你不能这么做，因为你没受过这方面的训练，也没受过那方面的训练’，诸如此类。

We have knowledge in a wide variety of fields and the virtue of this is that we can actually look over this wide variety, see the interaction, and see the interplay without somebody saying, well, you can't do this because you're not trained in this field, you're not trained in that field, and so on and so forth.

要真正做好这项工作，就必须成为这种通才，我们严重质疑，典型的大学训练出来的学者是否具备将这些内容整合起来所需的宏观视野。

To do this work properly actually requires being this kind of a generalist, and we seriously question whether your typical university trained scholar would have the overview necessary to put these things together.

所以，我们在这里谈论的是一种生态学的视角，即认识到所有事物是如何相互关联的，并能够以某种统一的模式呈现出来。

So we're talking about an ecological point of view here where you recognize how all the things are connected together and are able to present them in some unified pattern.

是的。

Yes.

我同意。

I would say so.

我的意思是，我们书中的注释会持续体现这一点。

I mean, we we the annotations in the booklets will reflect that continually.

其中一些会是推测。

Some of them will be speculations too.

再说一遍，这个翻译项目的一个特点就是我们并不想以权威口吻发言。

Again, we're not one feature of this translation program is that we are not trying to speak, you know, ex cathedral here.

我们的想法是希望能够自由地对各种事情进行推测。

The idea is we want to be free to speculate about things.

我认为这意味着这一点。

I think that this means this.

然后在后续的版本中说，我之前对这一点的理解是错的。

And then in a later edition say, I was wrong about that.

这完全不是这个意思。

It doesn't mean that at all.

我们希望开启讨论，并特别鼓励订阅者们做出回应。

We would like to open up discussion and we particularly would like to encourage responses from the people who are subscribing.

这对我们来说非常重要。

This is very important to us.

这不仅帮助我们更好地完成工作，还让我们避免陷入僵化。

Not only does it help us do the work better, but it keeps us from getting stale.

我的意思是，很容易陷入某种模式。

I mean, it's easy to fall into a pattern.

你会说，我认为这正是它的含义。

You say, I think that this is what this is about.

你一直沿着这个思路走下去，就开始忽视其他证据。

You keep following it through, so you start ignoring other bits of evidence.

但有时候，那些对哲学了解不多的人所给出的开放反应，对这种项目来说可能非常有益。

But sometimes, kind of open reaction from people who don't necessarily know much about philosophy can sometimes be very, very healthy in this kind of project.

所以当我们说希望得到读者的反馈时，这绝不仅仅是个宣传手段。

So when we say we want feedback from the readers, this is not just an advertising ploy.

这是非常认真的。

It's really serious.

至少对我来说是这样。

At least it is for me.

事实上，我们已经从一些团队成员那里获得了这样的反馈。

And as a matter of fact, we've already had that from some of our people.

所以，施密特在这里提出的是一个非常重要的观点，而且他表达得如此坚定，这很有趣。

So this is a super important point that Schmidt's making here and it's interesting how emphatically he's stating it.

但基本上，施密特知道他们肯定会犯错，他希望保持开放态度，接受批评，并与社区就材料进行讨论，以更好地理解它，而这正是‘前景计划’早期阶段的核心组成部分。

But basically, Schmidt knows that they're gonna make mistakes and he's saying that he wants to be open to receiving criticism and also having discussions about the material in the community in order to understand it better and that that's actually a core part of the process of Project Hindsight especially in the early years.

这也是‘前景计划’早期阶段的一大亮点。

And that's one of the great things about the early phases of Project Hindsight.

因此，该项目的早期阶段在接纳不同人、不同观点和不同传统方面的贡献是相当开放的。

So the early phases of the project were actually pretty open in terms of contributions from different people and different viewpoints and different traditions.

他们公开向读者、订阅者和社区征求反馈。

And they openly solicited feedback from their readers and from their subscribers and from the community.

有时，这些反馈会以重要且显著的方式影响和塑造项目进展。

And sometimes that would shape and impact things in important and notable ways.

所以，你知道，人们的思想会经历不同的阶段，我知道，后来，尤其是施密特，对希腊化占星术的看法逐渐变得更加坚定。

So, you know, there are different eras in people's thinking and I know, like, later on, know, different people would develop more Especially Schmidt would develop more firm ideas about his views on Hellenistic astrology.

但我认为，在这个阶段，即Project Hindsight的最初几年里，确实存在着一种显著的开放性，以及一种社区感和理想主义，这些元素在项目中非常突出。

But I think in this phase, in the first few years of Project Hindsight, there was actually this remarkable degree of openness and this sense of community and idealism and all of these different things that were swirling around in the project that were very prominent.

因此，看到Schmidt对此如此强调就非常有趣了——他一方面表示，他们希望在翻译文本的过程中保持开放，敢于提出自己的推测或观察；另一方面，他也清楚自己希望保持开放心态，愿意修正观点，接受反馈，哪怕这些反馈批评或质疑了他们的某些立场，或指出了他们未曾注意到的视角，而他认为这些恰恰非常有价值。

And so it's very interesting to see how emphatic Schmidt is about that and is about that process of both on the one hand saying they they wanna be open to making speculations or observations of what they think is happening in these texts as they're translating them as they go, but that they also know that they want to be open to be being able to revise their thinking or to receiving feedback that maybe, you know, criticizes or pushes back against certain things or points out perspectives that maybe they're not aware of or not thinking of and that they think that that's actually valuable.

因此，这一点对于理解Project Hindsight早期阶段的真实面貌至关重要。

So that's actually a really important point in terms of what the early phases of Project Hindsight were were really like.

就围绕Project Hindsight的各种叙述而言，正因如此，听清楚他们在早期这些年究竟说了什么，并理解那种开放的精神才显得尤为重要。

And in terms of just, like, narratives surrounding Project Hindsight, that's why it's important to hear what they were actually saying, in these early years and to understand that that sort of spirit of openness.

我们实际上接到了一个电话，来电者应该是我们当前观众中的一位。

We actually received a I received a phone call from a person who's actually in our audience, I believe, at the moment.

他回应了我在我们期刊上发表的一篇较为学术性的文章，这篇文章恰好讨论了翻译项目中出现的许多抽象且相当复杂的问题。

And he was responding to a rather scholarly article that I have written in our journal, which which happens to discuss a lot of the sort of really abstract and somewhat difficult issues that come up in the translation project.

而这正是文章关注的重点。

And that's what it's what its attention is.

这位读者读了这篇文章后，从占星学的角度回应说，其中存在某些不一致之处。

And this person had had read this article and had responded to it from an astrological point of view saying there's something here that isn't consistent.

换句话说，你是在说，有一种亚里士多德式的视角来看待金星、火星，或者金星和月亮对大气层的影响。

In other words, you're saying that there's an Aristotelian way of looking at what the planet Venus and the planet Mars or the planet Venus and the Moon does to the atmosphere.

但在我看来，这与占星象征并不一致。

Whereas it seems to me that isn't consistent with astrological symbolism.

这次互动非常有趣，因为它促使我重新思考我对那段文字的翻译方式。

And this was very interesting as an interaction because it caused me to go rethink how I translated that passage.

因此，这种与读者的互动方式极其宝贵。

And so this is an exceptionally valuable way to have interaction with the readership.

所以我们并不是想强加什么观点。

And so we're not trying to dictate.

我们只是希望打开对话的空间。

We're just trying to open up.

我还有另一个想法。

I have another thought.

如果你引起了关注，你提到的学者们，罗布，还有大学，会不会对你们的做法产生敌意？

Will there be, if you got the attention, you're talking about the scholars, Rob, and the university, could there be hostility to what you're doing?

我在想，科学或医学上的突破往往与他们原先认为的真理或运作规律相悖。

I was thinking about in terms of breakthrough in science or medicine and it breaks with what they thought was the truth or the laws that were operating.

现在你提出这些观点，并不是针对那种受众。

Now you're coming out with these, you're not going for that kind of audience.

我毫不怀疑，我们会被认为极其傲慢，我们的资质也会被四处质疑。

I have no doubt that we'll be regarded as being exceedingly presumptuous and our credentials will be questioned right and left.

我也毫不怀疑，如果我们引起了他们的注意，却立刻被先入为主地视为无能，他们会从头到尾挑我们翻译的毛病。

And I have also no doubt that if they if if we do attract their attention and are instantly dismissed as being incompetent a priori, that they will pick the translations apart left and right.

至于最后一点——从头到尾挑翻译的毛病，我认为可以肯定地说，我们的译者是欢迎这种批评的，因为这能给我们提供回应的机会，甚至可能极大地改进翻译。

Now the last move, picking the translations apart left and right, I think I can safely say our translators were welcome because it would give us something to respond to and possibly quite, you know, improve the translations.

我们并不反对这一点。

We're not opposed to that.

但另一方面，如果我们仅仅因为是占星师，而不是受过严格训练的大学语言学家，就被一概否定，这就不对了。

But if on the other hand, we are simply rejected out of hand, no pun intended, because we're astrologers and not and not highly trained university linguist, and that reason, they condemn us.

我认为，占星界应有的反应应该是无视他们。

And I think the proper reaction or reaction of the astrologer community should be to ignore them.

我还有个问题想问罗布。

I I have another question for Rob.

你的愿景是什么？

What is your vision?

我今天早些时候听到你说，这就是你想要的。

I heard you say something earlier today that this is what you want.

关于学术界对这件事的反应，我不确定。

In terms of the reaction of the academic community, I don't know.

你知道，偶尔会有一些学者引用这些译本，比如在20世纪90年代末，有一位名叫迈克尔·莫尔纳的学者写了一本关于伯利恒之星的书，他深受Project Hindsight所发布译本的影响，并明确感谢了他们的贡献，他引用了这些资料。

You know, there were occasionally some scholars that would like cite the translations or I know there was a scholar named Michael Molnar in the late 1990s, for example, that wrote a book about the Star of Bethlehem, and he was very influenced and acknowledged the translations that Project Hindsight was producing, he he drew on those and and thanked them for for that.

而且，Project Hindsight的一些译本后来也被引用在一些学术著作中。

But and and some of the Project Hindsight translations were cited in some later academic texts.

但总的来说，我认为对学术界的影响并没有太大，我不想说它产生了多大影响。

But for the most part, I think there wasn't a lot of I don't wanna say impact on the academic community.

这有点复杂，很难说清楚到底产生了什么影响。

It's kinda tricky, like, what the what the impact was.

我不知道。

I don't know.

我知道当时并没有太多讨论，基本上就是没什么人谈，部分原因是学术界本身进展比较缓慢。

I know there wasn't just a lot there basically just wasn't, a lot of discussion, partially because, like, academia moves kind of slowly.

Project Hindsight影响学术界的一种方式，是通过一些受到其启发的占星师，他们后来重返校园，学习古代语言并获得博士学位。

Part of the ways that, Project Hindsight though influenced the academic community is through astrologers who after being inspired by Project Hindsight would sometimes go back to school and learn ancient languages and get a PhD.

然后他们开始在学术环境中撰写文章或书籍，这在某些情况下确实影响了关于占星术历史的学术讨论。

And then they would start writing articles or books in an academic context, which then would actually impact in some instances academic discussions surrounding the history of astrology especially.

所以有几位这样的占星师。

So there's a few different astrologers like that.

比如多里安·格林鲍姆，她后来回去读了博士，此后一直在研究古代占星术，对学术讨论产生了影响。

I mean, Dorian Greenbaum was one person who ended up going back and getting PhD, and then she's done a lot of work on ancient astrology since then that's influenced academic discussions.

她是很早就参与Project Hindsight和RHOT的人，订阅了相关资料并参加过一些活动。

She was an early sort of Project Hindsight and RHOT person that was involved subscribed and attended some of those things.

还有其他人。

And there have been some others.

例如，爱德华多·格里马利亚在2000年代初参加了Project Hindsight大会，并受到启发。

Eduardo Grimaglia, for example, is somebody who in the early 2000s, he attended a Project Hindsight Conclave and was inspired by it.

他回去学习了古代语言，获得了学位，后来还用西班牙语出版了一本关于希腊化占星术的书。

And he went back and studied ancient languages and got a degree and then later also published a book in Spanish on Hellenistic astrology.

因此，在这个背景下，它确实在某种程度上影响了学术界。

So there's some ways in which it did influence academic things in that context.

但除此之外，总的来说，Project Hindsight的主要影响还是在占星界。

But otherwise, think for the most part, Project Hindsight, its primary influence was on the astrological community for the most part.

你目前所做的这项工作正是为此而生的。

Born for this this work that you're doing right now.

我很好奇，你对未来四五年，甚至十年的发展有什么愿景？

And I'm curious as to what your vision is for the next over the next four or five, maybe even ten years where this is going.

也许你已经说过这些了，但我很喜欢这个想法。

Perhaps you've said that already, but I like that.

整体发展方向对我来说有点难以明确说明，超出了我之前提到的内容，但我可以告诉你我的计划。

Well, where the whole thing is going is a little hard for me to say clearly outside beyond what I've said already, but what I'll give you my plan.

是的，这正是我

Yes, that's what I'm

除了担任翻译的编辑之外，我认为我的角色是将这些材料以一种能让占星界真正消化并融入当代实践的形式传递出去。

Outside of being involved as editor of translations, I see my role as being the conveyor of the material to the astrological community in such a form that it can really begin to digest and integrate it into a contemporary practice.

我并不是说我是唯一做这件事的人，但这是我为自己设定的任务，任何愿意接手的人都可以去做。

I'm not just I'm not saying I'm the only one doing this, but that's that is a task I see for myself and anyone else who care to take it off.

在项目开始之前，我就开始撰写一部关于西方占星传统真实面貌的介绍，而不是现代占星术。

One of the things I started doing before the project began was writing an introduction of the astrological tradition of the West as it actually is, rather than modern astrology.

我很快遇到了一个又一个问题，发现很多地方我自己也不清楚，内容非常模糊。

And I quickly began running into issue after issue, where I simply didn't know where things were really unclear.

让我举一个具体例子，这个问题已经开始浮现，但我还不能说它已被完全证实。

Let give you a concrete example of one issue that is surfacing, but I can't yet say is fully proven.

所以罗布·汉德刚才谈到了他作为Project Hindsight的代言人角色，以及他最有可能将这些材料翻译并以易懂、可呈现的形式传递给占星界的人，我认为这确实是他的主要职责。

So Rob Hand just talked a little bit about being kind of like his role as the front man of Project Hindsight, as well as the one who could probably best translate this material to the astrological community and put it in a presentable form to make it understandable, which I do think was his primary role.

他担任这一角色，以及在翻译序言中所做的评论笔记，都极其有用、极其宝贵；同时，他在上世纪九十年代中期作为占星界最著名的占星师之一，积极推广该项目，向占星界宣传复兴古代占星、回归并研读古代文本的价值。

Both that role and his commentary notes in the introductions to the translations were super useful and super, valuable, and also his role going out and being essentially one of the most famous astrologers in the astrological community at the time in the mid nineteen nineties, and promoting the project and kind of selling the astrological community on the idea that there was something valuable about reviving ancient astrology and going back and studying the ancient texts.

但他在这里谈到，从长远来看，他的主要价值在于能够将所有这些信息——在完成翻译并复兴古代技法之后——以一种清晰易懂的方式呈现出来。

But he's talking about here in the long term that his primary value is gonna be the one who can put all of this information once they've translated all of it and revived the ancient techniques in a presentable form and make it understandable.

事实上，他确实做到了这一点，尤其是在某些技法上，比如他写了一本小册子，讲解‘派别’这一概念，即日间与夜间星盘的区别，这本小册子影响深远，促使包括我在内的许多占星师采纳了这一技法。

And in fact, he did end up doing that, with certain techniques because for example, he wrote a little booklet on the concept of sect, the distinction between day and night charts that was very influential and influenced some of the uptake of that technique, especially by astrologers like myself and others.

他还为《山地占星家》杂志撰写了文章，举办讲座，并最终出版了一本关于整宫制的小册子或宣传单。

He also wrote articles in The Mountain Astrologer magazine and did lectures and eventually published a little booklet or a little pamphlet on whole sign houses.

因此，他在推广这一技法方面发挥了作用——在从古代文本中恢复这一技法之后，比如他们首次翻译的保罗斯的作品，他们在第一次翻译时就注意到，保罗斯·亚历山大里亚似乎将星座直接当作宫位使用。

So he had a role in helping to promote that technique once it was recovered from doing some of the translations of some of the ancient texts like Paulus, which was their first translation where they noted right away in their first translation, they made the observation that Paulus Alexandrina seemed to be using the signs as houses.

所以，这是其中一项重要发现。

So that was one of the discoveries.

后来，在另一段与本访谈同期的采访中（我另有一盘磁带记录），有趣的是，他们一起看一张星盘时，他实际上正在用象限宫位制解读星盘。

Then Rob eventually in one of the other interviews that's contemporary with this that I have on another tape, it's interesting because they're looking at a chart together and he's actually reading the chart using quadrant houses.

直到九十年代中后期，我才认为罗布才完全转向整宫制，此前他花了数年时间先进行测试、在实践中尝试，并观察它在星盘中的实际效果。

And it wasn't until later in the nineteen nineties, I think, that Rob fully made the switch to whole sign houses, after several years of first testing it out and trying it in practice and seeing how it worked in charts and things like that.

因此，从罗布的时间线来看，他并没有立即采纳整宫制或其他一些技法，而是经历了一个探索过程：首先通过翻译恢复这些技法，发现这些概念确实存在，然后开始在实践中应用，观察它们在当代语境中的表现，有时还将其与现代占星技法进行融合，以探索古代与现代占星术如何协同运作。

So it's kind of interesting in terms of Rob's chronology that he didn't immediately adopt whole sign houses or some of these other techniques, but instead he went through this process of exploring them, first recovering them through the translations and finding that these concepts existed and then starting to put them in practice and see how they worked in a contemporary context and also in some instances synthesizing them with some of the techniques from modern astrology to see how ancient and modern astrology could work together.

所以我真希望他能继续完成那些工作，否则他本可能是那个写出古代占星术绝佳概要的人，或者写出现代与传统占星术完美融合著作的人，那本书很可能会产生巨大影响。

So I do wish that he had ended up being able to follow through with some of that work because he would have otherwise been the guy who probably would have written either a great summary of ancient astrology or he would have been the guy that would have written a great synthesis of modern and traditional astrology that probably would have been very influential.

但自从项目‘远见’解散后，他在1996年和1997年离开项目后，于2000年代转向了学术道路，去攻读学位。

But instead after Project Hindsight split up, after he left Project Hindsight in 1996 and 1997, he went the academic route in the 2000s to get his degree.

而到目前为止，他尚未写出任何关于传统占星术的入门著作。

And then so far at least hasn't ended up writing an introductory text to traditional astrology.

因此，这项任务最终落到了像我这样的人身上，这正是我写出了关于希腊化占星术的书的原因，还有德梅特拉·乔治的两本关于古代占星术的书，以及本杰明·戴克斯、路易斯·里贝罗、海伦娜·阿维拉等其他人，他们也都撰写了关于中世纪占星传统的优秀著作。

So instead that task ended up falling to people like myself and that's why I ended up writing my book on Hellenistic astrology or Demetra George and her two books on ancient astrology or even others like Benjamin Dykes or Luis Ribeiro and Helena Avilar who wrote good books, on the medieval astrological tradition.

所以，罗伯特·汉德本应完成他《行星相位》一书的修订版。

So Hand Robert Hand is supposed to have finished a revised edition of his book Planets in Transit.

今年早些时候我采访他时，他曾提到过这一点，这本书很可能将成为现代与古代占星术的融合之作。

He said in an interview I did with him earlier this year, and that will probably represent a synthesis of modern and ancient astrology.

因此，一旦这本书出版，我们真的很期待看到它会是什么样子。

So it'll be really interesting to see what that looks like once that's released.

但令人感兴趣的是，从时间线来看，他当初的计划与三十年后事情最终的发展轨迹之间，存在着如此微妙的差异。

But it's just interesting in terms of chronology of how things worked out in terms of his plans then versus like thirty years later where things ended up sort of falling out.