罗伯特·汉德回应黛博拉·霍尔丁

这仍然是个问题。

That's still a problem.

对。

Right.

左边是宫位图，右边是整宫图。

So there's a quadrant chart on the left and there's a whole sign chart on the right.

所以这就是所谓的偶然宫位。

So that's the accidental houses.

其中一部分是，嗯，这可能其实不一样，因为哦，是土星的位置。

Well, part of it is Well, think this might actually be different because Oh yeah, it's the Saturn placement.

所以在宫位图中，它位于第八宫，而在整宫图中，它位于第九宫。

So it has to do within the quadrant house on the left, it's in the eighth house, but in the whole sign house, it's in the ninth house.

所以他把这两种解释混合在一起，说：它在宫位系统中是正式位于第八宫，但在整宫系统中是偶然位于第九宫。

So what he does is he mixes the delineations and he says, So it's in the eighth house by quadrant accidentally, or sorry, formally, but accidentally by whole sign in the ninth.

然后他说：它在狮子座处于落陷状态，受到位于第十二宫的火星几乎成精确四分相的损害，同时也与上升星座的守护星呈几乎精确的对冲。

Then he says, It's exiled in detriment in Leo, a fire sign damaged by an almost partile square from Mars in the twelfth house and also opposite to the ruler of the Ascendant in an almost partile manner.

他说，因此，第九宫受影响的程度，象征着远离故土的不幸且致命的长途旅行。

And he says, Therefore to the extent that the ninth house was affected, it signified unfortunate and deadly long journeys away from his homeland.

但至于土星与第八宫相关，并受到火星刑相的损害，则预示着因燃烧铅而死，因为在金属中土星代表铅。

But to the extent that Saturn pertains to the eighth house damaged by the square from Mars, a violent death by burning lead because among metals Saturn signifies lead.

所以实际情况是，他综合考虑了整体宫位和 quadrant 宫位的混合影响，认为这个人正是因此种混合方式而死亡。

So what happens is he's taking into account, he's saying the person basically died like this in this way as a result of the blend between the whole sign and the quadrant house.

是的，我正在试图理解瑞典，那里做这种测试很棒，因为你会得到非常极端的宫位。

Yeah, I'm just trying to figure out Sweden, that's a great place for doing this sort of testing because you get really bonkers houses.

但那些使用整体宫位的人，他称之为偶然的。

But the whole sign charters, that's what he calls accidental.

我不确定该把哪一个归入哪个类别，但我喜欢这个观点，因为‘正式的’和‘偶然的’其实并不是真正的对立概念。

Yeah, I'm not sure I would assign one, which one I would assign to the categories, but I like that because, well, except formal and accidental aren't really opposites.

对。

Right.

莫里努斯在哲学上是个非常复杂的人物，因为他修正了亚里士多德的理论。

Morinus is a very difficult character philosophically because he revised Aristotle.

这仅仅是亚里士多德式的风格，但他使用的术语不同。

It's just as Aristotelian style, but he uses the terminology differently.

好的。

Okay.

整段文字都是基于一个前提：你立刻就能理解他对亚里士多德的改动。

And the whole text is written on the assumption that you understand immediately what he's done with Aristotle.

对。

Right.

于是整段内容继续展开，最终他只是谈到这个人基本上是在旅行中或在异国他乡去世，并得出结论说土星同时承载了第八和第九宫的含义。

So the whole thing goes on and then eventually he just talks about him basically like dying while traveling or dying in a foreign country and concludes by saying that Saturn carried the meaning of both the eighth and ninth houses.

他接着还给出了其他例子，在下一页中说明了整宫制和等宫制，但我们不必在此过多停留。

And he actually goes on and he gives other examples as well in the following page that makes whole sign and equal, but we don't have to dwell there necessarily.

是的。

Yeah.

他是翻译了整部作品，还是只翻译了其中一部分？

Did translate the entire work or just one section of it?

这个版本。

This edition.

这只是第18卷，是AFA的译本。

This was just book 18, which was the AFA translation.

哦，明白了。

Oh, okay.

好的。

Okay.

是的，这个版本已经流传很久了。

Yeah, that's the one that's been around forever.

是的，这本书如果我们继续下去，肯定会选它。

Yeah, it's a book that definitely had we continued, we would have done it.

莫里亚说拉丁语挺简单的。

Moriah says Latin is pretty easy.

本来想试着的，只是他的哲学有点古怪。

Was trying to be, except for his philosophy being a little weird.

我的意思是，当我这么说奇怪时，听起来像是亚里士多德式的，但实际上并不是。

I mean, when I say weird, it sounds Aristotelian, but it isn't quite.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得翻译这句话可能需要你花一点时间。

I think it would have taken you like a little bit to translate this Yeah.

我电脑里有一张那个怪物的图片。

Have a picture of the monster on my computer.

我有一个PDF文件，应该是同一个版本，看起来一模一样。

I have a PDF file of probably that edition that looks like the same one.

是的。

Yeah.

为了获取一些口述历史和实际背景，我们回到项目远景的早期阶段。

Going back to the early stages of Project Hindsight just to get some of the oral history and actual context.

最初是档案，但后来你提出了进行实际翻译项目的构想，并决定这个文本需要被翻译。

Initially it was the archive, but then eventually you came up with the idea to do an actual translation project and decided the text needed to be translated.

到1993年，你创建了一个订阅服务，占星师可以订阅，每次有新译本出版时都能收到。

Then by 1993, you created this subscription service where astrologers could subscribe to get a translation every time it came out.

然后你开始制作译本。

And then you started producing translations.

我知道直到那时你主要做的是现代占星术，但其中一个指控是，嗯，

I know that you primarily did modern astrology up to this point, but one of the allegations Well,

非传统的现代占星术，没错。

deviant modern astrology, yes.

我从未做过传统的现代占星术。

I never did conventional modern astrology.

对。

Right.

因为我知道你一直对占星术的历史很感兴趣，你也对研究不同形式的占星术有兴趣，比如研究托勒密，或者你提到参加过那个吠陀占星会议。

Because one of the things I know about you is that you've also had a long interest in the history of astrology and that you also had an interest in studying different forms of astrology including studying like Ptolemy or you mentioned going to that Vedic conference.

也就是说，到项目启动时，你对传统占星术并不陌生，对吧？

It's like you weren't not familiar with traditional astrology by the time the project started, right?

嗯，要真正熟悉它是很困难的。

Well, it was difficult to be terribly familiar with it.

我们当时只有利利和一些其他的英国作家的作品。

All we had was Lilly and some of the other English writers.

比如利利、托勒密、梅内利乌斯，

Like Lily and Ptolemy and Menelius and

是的，梅内利乌斯真是个奇葩。

Yeah, Menelius is a real piece of work.

他的诗作翻译得极其简单，几乎无法理解。

His poetry rather simple translations, virtually impossible.

是的，因为他试图创作一部富有娱乐性的艺术作品，但在描述方式上存在很多模糊之处。

Yeah, because he was trying to create an entertaining work of art, but there's some problems in terms of the way he describes things being very ambiguous.

有些人非常强调他使用的是哪种宫位系统，尽管原文本身非常模糊。

And some people place a lot of emphasis or try to place a lot of emphasis on saying what system of house division he used even though it's a very ambiguous text.

是的。

Yeah.

我得说，试图弄清楚曼尼利乌斯在实际层面上究竟想表达什么，这和圣经释经学有些相似。

I would have to say trying to find out what Menelius actually saying on a practical level is somewhat in the same area as biblical exegesis.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

你必须从非常微小的线索中做出推断。

You have to make inferences of very small hints.

没错。

Right.

是的，这说得通。

Yeah, that makes sense.

我从不试图过分强调说曼尼利乌斯确切在做什么，因为文本太模糊了。

I've never tried to put too much emphasis on saying what for sure Manilius was doing because it's so ambiguous.

它原本是为喜欢占星术的人创作的一部文学作品。

It was intended to be a literary work for people who liked astrology.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

而且他被认为很了不起，因为他把一些数学计算写成了诗，这相当了不起。

And he was also supposed to be impressive because he was putting some mathematical calculations in verse, which is kind of impressive.

我得再看一下才能找到那些部分。

I'd have to look at it again to find those.

如果你知道的话，我就信你的说法。

I'll take your word for it if you know of them.

我从未坐下来完整读过，因为这是一部非常奇特的作品。

I've never sat down and read the whole thing because it's a very weird work.

你的意思是，你从未读过拉丁文原版，只读过翻译版？

You mean you've never read it in Latin rather than the translation?

我仔细翻阅过这本书，但不能说我是系统性地读完的。

I've gone through the book pretty thoroughly but I can't say that I've read it systematically.

我拿起书来读，如果你读了其中一部分的话。

I pick it up and read if you read some bit of it.

我有一句能背出来的话：命运主宰世界。

I have one line I can actually quote, The fates rule the world.

哦，是的，我一直很喜欢你引用那段话的方式。

Oh yeah, I always liked the way that you quoted that passage.

你还记得那段话吗？

Do you still have it like in memory?

但我现在记不得其余的部分了。

But I don't have the rest of it now.

没关系。

That's okay.

但我知道它在哪里。

But I know where it is.

在Project Hindsight的早期，你们聚在一起，建立了一个订阅模式来开始翻译这些文本，然后你们就开始翻译了。

So with the early days of Project Hindsight, you guys get together, you create a subscription model to start translating these tags, and then you start translating them.

有一点我一直没想明白，你们在短短几年内就推出了这么多译本，你们当时肯定是在不停地翻译所有这些作品。

And one of the things that I never understood is it seemed like so many translations came out in such a short span of like a few years that you guys must have just been translating all of these.

我一直很佩服你那时候有多么勤奋，是的，我们

I always marvel at how industrious you were basically Yeah, we

驱动。

driven.

毫无疑问。

No doubt about it.

然后我们四个人，或者说三个人之间开始出现政治纷争。

And then politics started getting in the way among the four of us, three of us.

是的，我们稍后可以谈那个，但当时是什么驱动着你们呢？

Yeah, we can get to that in a minute, but what was driving you?

我们当时非常想做这件事。

We just wanted to do this very badly.

我们觉得这是必要的。

We felt it was necessary.

为什么？

Why?

因为没人做过。

Because nobody had done it.

占星术是一种古老的技艺，据称我们直接从古代继承了它，两千年来从未改变。

Astrology was this ancient art which supposedly we have had handed to us directly from the ancient and hasn't changed one way 200 two millennia.

但它确实变了。

And it has.

它已经发展了很多。

It's evolved a lot.

对。

Right.

到那时为止，所有占星师都知道占星术是一门非常古老的学科，但他们大多假设我们今天所实践的方式与两千年前大致相同。

So up to that point, it's like all astrologers knew that astrology was a very old subject, but they largely assumed that the way we were practicing it today was more or less the same as it was two thousand years ago.

任何这样假设的人都非常无知，因为你只要翻开博纳蒂的译本，就能明显看出其中的差异。

Anybody who assumed that was really ignorant because all you have to do is pick up, there are already passages from Bonatti in translation and they were observably different.

尽管他们与利利的时代相距不远。

Although they were not too far removed from Lilly.

对。

Right.

博纳蒂和利利的时代并不相隔太远。

Bonatti and Lilly are not too far apart.

哦，对了，我们跳过了那一部分。

Oh yeah, I forgot we skipped over that part.

你之前是纯粹的现代占星师吗？还是在‘前景计划’之前就了解过传统占星术？

Like were you purely a modern astrologer or did you know anything about traditional astrology prior to Project Hindsight?

我懂一些。

I knew somewhat.

我研究过占星术的历史，但一直没怎么实际运用，因为那些译本太难获取了。

I studied the history of astrology a fair amount, but I had tried to employ it because the translations were so hard to get.

不，我没有接触过拉丁文。

No, I did not have access to Latin.

施密茨做了巨大的贡献。

The Schmitz performed a great service.

我图书馆里有一份完整的《CCAG》影印本。

I have the complete CCAG at my library, Xeroxed.

我

I

现在我很难记住名字。

have a horrible time remembering names at the moment.

描述一下施密茨魏斯。

Describe them Schmitzweiss.

埃伦·布莱克。

Ellen Black.

埃伦·布莱克，是的。

Ellen Black, yeah.

以前我常去马里兰州一个小镇的图书馆，那地方的名字我一时想不起来了，它是马里兰州尽头的一个矿业小镇。

Used to go down to a library in a town in Maryland whose name is gave you right at the moment, it's a mining town at the end of Maryland.

坎伯兰。

Cumberland.

坎伯兰，谢谢。

Cumberland, thank you.

她疯狂地使用复印机，因为她可以免费使用，而且她确实用得很多。

Xerox Madly, because she had free access to the machine and boy did she ever do it.

她复印了多份副本，其中一份是完整的CCAG。

And she made multiple copies of the Xeroxes and one of them was the entire CCAG.

对。

Right.

因为那是其中一件事：过去一个世纪里，所有学术学者都创建了所有希腊语、拉丁语及其他文本的批判性版本，但这些版本都是用原文写的，而大多数占星家并不懂这些语言。

Well, because that's one of the things is all the academic scholars had created all these critical editions of all the Greek and Latin and other texts over the past century, but they were in their original languages and most astrologers didn't read those languages.

直到现在，这些文本都一直被锁在这些原文里。

They were sort of locked away in these texts up to this point.

没错。

Exactly.

大多数占星师只能阅读现代语言，如果他们能读懂多种语言，那也只会是现代欧洲语言，除了少数像贝拉这样懂希伯来语这种古代语言的人。

Most astrologers can only read modern If they can read more than one language, it would be a modern European language except for a sort of Beira who speaks an ancient language, Hebrew.

对。

Right.

不过，在1985年《威廉·利利》雷古勒斯版重印时，确实曾短暂引发过一些热潮。

Well, although there was like a few years before like some excitement over the reprinting of the Regulus edition of William Lilly in 1985.

那就是文艺复兴及更早期占星术开始复兴的时候。

That's when the back that's when the Renaissance and older astrologies began.

她试图保存这些内容，因为对她而言，这就是一切的终极意义，但事实并非如此。

And that's what she's trying to preserve because that was for her the be all and end all and it wasn't.

没错，因为她是其中一员。我在观看她的讲座时意识到，黛博拉·霍尔丁是在20世纪80年代末才接触传统占星术的，时间上离你们并不远，可能只早了四五年，因为她1989年才获得霍里文凭。

Right because she was part of I mean one of the things I realized in watching her lecture is that Deborah Houlding got into traditional astrology in the late '80s not too far before you guys, probably only four or five years because she got her Hori diploma in 1989.

那距离‘前景计划’的启动，也就仅仅三四年而已。

That's only what, three or four years before Project Hindsight.

是的。

Yeah.

这确实给了我们一些动力，是的。

That did give us some initiative, yes.

例如，你读过利利的书吗？

For example, did you read Lilly?

你有没有得到过利利的Regulus版或其他相关版本？

Did you get the Regulus edition of Lily or any of that?

是的，我有利利的Regulus版。

Yes, I have the Regulus edition of Lily.

现在我还有其他几个版本，但我最初买的是那本非常昂贵的Regulus版。

Now I have several other editions too, but I got that original, very expensive Regulus edition.

当然。

Sure.

我只是想弄清楚你是什么时候开始研究利利，或者开始接触到这类文本的。

Was just trying to understand at what point you started studying Lilly or became aware of texts like that.

因为即使在Project Hindsight之前，你没有读过拉丁文、阿拉伯文或希腊文原著，我想你还是对利利和那些作者有一些了解的。

Because even if you weren't reading the Latin text or Arabic or Greek prior to Project Hindsight, I think you had some awareness of Lilly and some of those authors.

是的，我读过。

Yes I did.

很惊人的是，对大多数现代占星师来说，占星术是从十九世纪初开始的。

It's amazing, well, that for most people in modern astrology, astrology started somewhere in the early nineteenth century.

糟糕透了。

That bad.

他们真的是平面派。

They were really placidists.

他们所了解的历史就这么多。

That's much of history they knew.

对，就二十世纪末的占星师对占星术历史的了解而言？

Right, in terms of like late twentieth century astrologers awareness of the history of astrology?

是的。

Yes.

他们只知道早期占星师的名字，但不了解其内容。

They were aware of earlier astrologers as names, but not content wise.

One of the things that really impressed me and Lily was, and I still think it's something every astrologer should study, is the assigned planetary and sign rulership to just about everything you could possibly imagine.

One of the things that really impressed me and Lily was, and I still think it's something every astrologer should study, is the assigned planetary and sign rulership to just about everything you could possibly imagine.

Right.

Right.

Like, for example, in a house, the fourth the fourth house represents the basement.

Like, for example, in a house, the fourth the fourth house represents the basement.

The tenth house represents the roof.

The tenth house represents the roof.

Right.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That sort of thing.

That sort of thing.

It's very concrete astrology, whereas mostly what was going on was astrology as a psychological tool.

It's very concrete astrology, whereas mostly what was going on was astrology as a psychological tool.

虽然我完全尊重心理占星术的理念，但我现在更倾向于一种与占星术真正起源的古代哲学传统有关的占星术，人们常提到斯多葛主义，但实际上应该是新柏拉图主义。

And while I have perfect respect for the idea of psychological astrology, where I'm at now is astrology that has some nodding reference to the ancient philosoph philosophical traditions in which astrology actually grew up and what people think of stoicism, but actually it was Neo Platonism.

对。

Right.

这就像利利传统的复兴，以及由此带来的兴奋感，因为似乎从20世纪80年代末到90年代初，英国兴起了一股复兴传统占星术的热潮。

So that's like the revival of Lilly and some of the excitement because it seems like there's a lot of excitement about the revival of traditional astrology coming out of The UK starting in the late 80s and early 90s.

佐勒在大西洋彼岸就像旷野中的呼喊者，但我非常认真地看待他。

Zoller was a voice crying in the wilderness over on the side of the Atlantic, although I took him very seriously.

但以前我们经常在纽约聚在一起讨论这些事情。

But we used to get together in New York and talk about these things a lot.

我认识佐勒的时间比认识施密特还要早。

I knew Zoller before I knew Schmidt.

是的，我忘了，佐勒在1980年出版了关于阿拉伯部分的书，书中引用并参考了本纳迪。

Yeah, I forgot because Zoller published his book on the Arabic parts that draws on and quotes Benadi in 1980.

所以从那时起他就一直在推广传统占星术，你们那时候就已经是老朋友了吗？

So he was promoting traditional astrology since then and you guys had been friends going way back then?

是的，他曾师从佐尔坦·梅森，这位匈牙利裔美国占星师在纽约经营一家酒类商店，佐尔坦·梅森对早期现代占星术，比如博纳蒂等人的著作有很深的了解。

Yeah, he studied with Zoltan Mason who was a Hungarian American astrologer who had an alcohol store in New York and Zoltan Mason was really deeply in touch with early modern astrology Bonatti and people like that.

那不是早期现代，而是中世纪的，但我的意思是，他也熟悉文艺复兴时期的大家，而大多数占星师对这些根本一无所知。

That's not early modern, that's medieval, but I mean he knew about the greats of the Renaissance also, which most astrologers didn't know anything about.

是的。

Yeah.

他似乎对玛利亚纳斯也很感兴趣。

He seemed to be interested in like Marianas as well.

我最近找到了一本与玛利亚纳斯有关的他的书。

I found one of his books recently that is connected to Marianas.

是的，我一点都不惊讶。

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised.

是的。

Yeah.

所以你和索拉尔有联系，你们从什么时候开始讨论占星术的？大概是80年代初还是70年代？

So you had a connection with solar and you guys talked to astrology going back to what, like the early 80s or 70s?

我觉得是80年代初。

I'd say early 80s.

我曾经在纽约住过一阵子，但那时还不认识他。

I lived for a while in New York and I didn't know him then.

直到我们在纽约的会议上多次碰面，才真正认识了他。

I didn't really meet him until we started running into each other at conferences in New York.

明白了。

Got it.

好的。

Okay.

所以这是有交集的。

So that's intersecting.

而且他非常推崇传统方法，他说老方法才是好方法。

And then of course he's very into the traditional methods and he said the old ways are the good ways.

不，他说老方法才是好方法。

No, he said the old ways are the good ways.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

这种语调的捕捉比我强多了。

That's much That's much better capturing the intonation than I can.

好的。

All right.

然后你遇到了施密特。

Then you meet Schmidt.

施密特不是占星师，这也是他独特的地方之一。

Schmidt is not an astrologer, which is one of the things that makes him unique.

但我想在1989年，他正在为迈克尔·厄利温工作。

But I think in 1989, he was working for Michael Earlywine.

我试图拼凑这段历史，我认为施密特被告知，厄利温想为占星术打造一个数字百科全书之类的东西，于是他让施密特开始研究。

And I've tried to piece together this history, but I think that Schmitt was told to Earlywine wanted to build a digital encyclopedia or somewhat something for astrology and he asked Schmitt to start researching it.

我想这就是施密特开始回头查阅一些古代占星文本的关键版本，以便开展这个研究项目的时候。

I think that's when Schmidt started going back and looking at some of the critical editions of the older ancient astrological texts just in order to do this research project.

这是真的吗？

Is that true?

这一直是我自己的推断。

That's been an inference of mine.

他确实为埃勒文工作过。

He did work for Erlewein.

我觉得埃勒文曾计划打造一个大规模的占星百科全书。

Think Erwine had an encyclopedia of astrology on a grand scale.

是的。

Yeah.

我隐约记得，正是这件事促使施密特开始研究这些资料。

And I do vaguely recall that that's what got Schmidt looking at this stuff.

但他和埃勒文关系不太好，所以这段合作很短暂。

But he didn't get along with Erwine very well so that it was short lived.

是的。

Yeah.

关键是有一次在会议上，我听说你告诉他，如果和厄尔文的合作不顺利，就来找你，你们可以一起做点什么。

And that's the thing is at a conference one time, what I've been told is that you told him if things ever don't work out with early wine, come find me and we'll do something together.

而你是在《视野计划》开始前几年说的这句话。

And you said that like a few years before Project Hindsight.

后来，施密特在1992年停止了为厄尔文工作。

Then what happened is that Schmidt stopped working for Early Wine in 1992.

于是你们在1992年的UWAC会议上相遇，他主动来找你，说类似这样的话：我不再和厄尔文合作了，我们来做点什么吧。

So then you and him crossed paths at UWAC in 1992 and he came up to you and said something like, I'm no longer working with early wine, let's do something.

这可以说是那些讨论的开端。

And that was kind of the birth of some of those discussions.

这是真的吗？

Is that true?

是的，确实如此。

Yes, that's true.

好的，太棒了。

Okay, cool.

我一直在努力拼凑这段历史，因为这发生在我出生前十多年，所以很高兴能和你核实这些细节。

I've been trying to piece together some of this history because it was like a decade or more before my time, so I'm really glad to verify some of this with you.

是的。

Yeah.

好的，你在1992年创立了翻译项目，订阅服务和实际的翻译内容从1993年开始推出。

Okay, you created the translation project in 1992, the subscription service and actual translations start coming out in 1993.

它们的发布频率是多少？

They're coming out at a pace of what?

每个月一篇，还是——

Like one a month or every-

这原本是目标，但结果证明有点过于雄心勃勃了。

That was the original goal which turned out to be a trifle of ambitious.

老实说，整个项目看起来确实非常有雄心。

Well, the entire endeavor actually seemed very ambitious, have to say.

是的，实际上。

Yes, actually.

但它让事情启动了。

But it got the ball rolling.

对。

Yeah.

你提到你有拉丁语背景，主要担任编辑工作，因为你对占星术的历史以及不同传统中的占星实践有深入了解。

And you said you had some Latin background and you worked as an editor basically because you really came at it with a knowledge of the history of astrology and the practice of astrology in different traditions.

我看到你在脚注中的评论，你为施密特翻译的希腊文文本以及佐勒翻译的拉丁文文本都撰写了注释，对吧？

And I see your comments in your footnotes where you edited and you wrote footnotes for both the Greek texts that Schmidt was translating as well as the Latin texts that Zoller was translating essentially, right?

对。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

我将希腊传统与后来的传统联系起来，而史密斯的注释则更侧重于希腊文本的技术性内容。

I connected the Greek tradition to later traditions and Smith's footnotes were more technically oriented toward the Greek.

好的。

Okay.

所以你在翻译这些不同的文本，然后你们就开始学习了。

So you're translating these different texts and then you guys do start learning.

我注意到在不同的翻译中，比如当你读到瓦伦斯的不同书籍或其他类似内容时，你会有一种发现新事物的兴奋感。

I noticed in the different translations, like when you get to different books of Valens or other things like that, there's like a sense of excitement that you're discovering new things.

比如时间主星系统？

For example, the time lord systems?

是的，因为我从印度占星术中了解过时间主星系统。

Yes, because I knew about time lord systems from Indian astrology.

我也知道费达尔，这是一种中世纪的系统。

And I also knew about Firdar which was a medieval system.

好的。

Okay.

但在瓦伦斯的著作中，时间主星系统的数量在短短几个月内从零增加到了六十多个。

But in Valens the count of time award systems went from zero to 60 something in a matter of a few months.

其中之一是星座释放。

One of which is zodiacal releasing.

对。

Right.

星座释放是一种在传承过程中失传、现代占星术中完全不存在的技术。

So zodiacal releasing was a technique that hadn't survived in the transmission and wasn't in modern astrology at all.

你们

You guys

全部为零。

All, zero.

我认为印度占星术中也没有这种类型的时主系统。

That kind of a time lord system I don't think exists in Indian astrology either.

是的，肯尼斯·约翰逊指出过一种类似的版本。

Yeah, there's a version of it that Kenneth Johnson pointed out.

在《普鲁沙拉》中有一种几乎类似于星座释放的方法，使用相同的周期，但计算方式略有不同。

There's like something that's almost like zodiac releasing in Purushara that uses the same periods, but it's calculated just slightly differently.

我知道阿布·马沙尔·里托里乌斯提到了黄道释放，但他是在引用瓦伦斯。

I know Abu Ma'shar Rittorius mentions zodiac releasing, but he's citing Valens.

然后阿布·马沙尔提到了与黄道释放相关的周期，但此后我并没有真正看到它在传统中再次出现。

And then Abu Ma'shar mentions the periods associated with zodiac releasing, but then I don't really see it show up in the tradition after that.

不，他也非常严谨地研究了费里特·R。

No, he also did ferrit r pretty rigorously.

阿尔弗雷德·白羊座的拉丁文版本。

Alfred Aries Latin.

好的。

Okay.

阿尔弗雷德·白羊座的英文版。

Alfred Aries in English.

所以当你开始翻译这些文本时，就会发现这些不同的内容。

So you start translating all these texts, you start finding these different things.

我很好奇的是，讲座中曾有一个说法，声称当时没有任何讨论，也没有人提出问题，更没有开放的态度允许对任何内容进行质疑或挑战。

And one of the things I'm curious about was there was a statement, an allegation in the lecture that there was no discussions and there was no questions that were being asked nor was there any openness to having things questioned or challenged.

胡说八道。

Bullshit.

是的，我

Yeah, I

在我们小组里，我们确实做了大量这样的工作，因为就连施密特对占星术也不是特别精通，知识也不够扎实。

didn't Among in the group we did a great deal of that because I mean even Schmidt wasn't totally secure, was not terribly knowledgeable in astrology.

他根本没有实践过占星术，本质上是个数学家。

He hadn't done astrology, he was a mathematician basically.

是的，而且还是个哲学家。

Yeah, and like a philosopher.

哲学家兼数学家，没错。

A philosopher and mathematician, yes.

所以他具备语言能力，受过哲学和古代思想的训练，也懂数学，但由于多年没有实际从事占星实践，他对占星术的观点并不像你或佐勒那样坚定。

So he had the language skills and the training in philosophy and ancient thought as well as mathematics, but was not as firm in terms of his views on astrology because he hadn't been practicing it for a number of years like you or Zohler had.

对。

Yeah.

我们俩都没有固执到会拒绝任何出现的内容，只要文本中提到有趣的东西，我们都会尝试去理解。

Neither of us were so firm that we would reject anything that showed up and the text would say fascinating and try to understand it.

对。

Right.

有时候会冒出一些问题，但我知道你们开始举办活动和研讨会，期间也有讨论和不同的演讲等内容。

Sometimes And there were questions that were coming up, but there was also, I know you guys started hosting events and conclaves and that there was discussions and different presentations and stuff during the course of those.

是的，我给你举个例子。

Yeah, I'll give you an example.

我想是第二次。

I think it was the second one.

我只参加了前三次，之后就退出了。

I only went the three after that I had dropped out.

在第二次活动中，讨论的是根据命运法则推算的宫位或位置。

In the second one, the discussion was of houses reckoned or places reckoned from the law of fortune.

我不知道这怎么提出来的，但 idea 是，哦，是和效价有关的。

And I don't know how this came up, but the idea was that the oh yeah, it came up with valence.

从幸运点算起的第十一宫是获取之宫。

The eleventh sign from the Lot of Fortune is a place of acquisition.

好的。

Okay.

于是人们开始查看自己的星盘，发现相当多的人满足以下条件之一。

And people started looking at their charts and an awful lot of people had one of the following things true.

幸运点落在水星守护的星座，或者水星位于幸运点所在的星座，或者这两个条件同样适用于获取之宫——也就是从幸运点算起的第十一宫。

Lot of Fortune was a sign ruled by Mercury, or, Mercury was in the sign of the Lot of Fortune, or were those same two conditions applied to the place of acquisition, which is the eleventh sign from the Lot of Fortune.

直到今天，如果我在一个人的星盘里没看到这种情况，我都会怀疑他作为占星师的资质。

And to this day, if I don't find that in a person's chart, I wonder about their credentials as an astrologer.

这说的是靠占星赚钱，不是指研究占星。

This is for making money by astrology, by the way, it's not for studying it.

研究占星只需要一个稳固的水星就够了。

All you need to study it is a good solid mercury.

不是天王星，该死，是水星。

Not Uranus, dammit, mercury.

那是我学到的一件事。

That was one of things I learned.

传统占星术。

Traditional astrology.

天王星主宰占星术的原因是，大多数人认为我们是社会异类，而社会异类正是由占星术所主宰。

The reason why Uranus rules astrology is because most people consider us to be social deviants and social deviants rule by astrology.

对。

Right.

但这完全没能捕捉到占星术的本质。

But it doesn't capture the essence of astrology at all.

在“前景计划”早期，还有其他哪些争论或讨论过的想法，是你后来改变或调整过的？

Were there other debates that were had early on in Project Hindsight or things that were discussed or ideas that you had early on that later you shifted or changed on?

目前我想不起来有什么了，因为我们通常都会把事情彻底讨论清楚，但我相信其他人可能还记得一两件，不过现在我可能是你唯一的资料来源。

I can't think of any at the moment because we usually hash things out pretty thoroughly, but I'm sure that somebody else could probably remember a couple, but I think I'm probably your only source at the moment.

是的，没错。

Yeah, that's correct.

我们总体上是基于共识开展工作的。

We did work from a position of consensus by and large.

这正是佐勒的问题所在。

Was part of the problem with Zoller.

他认为他的翻译是至高无上的，而我们并不认同。

Thought his translations were the be all and end all and we didn't agree.

是的，有时候你们看起来像是有编辑，尤其是你担任编辑时，会提出一些修改建议，而这些有时会让佐勒感到不快，他并不喜欢被人告诉该怎么做。

Yeah, sometimes it seemed like you guys had editors, especially you acting as the editor, had editorial suggestions and sometimes Zoeller, that sort of rubbed Zoeller the wrong way or he didn't want to be told Well, what the to

我们刚才提到的那本书，

book we were talking about a moment ago, the

《赫尔墨斯之书》。

Liber Hermetis.

不，不是《赫尔墨斯之书》。

No, not the Liber Hermetis.

阿尔·金迪？

Al Kindi?

阿尔·金迪，是的。

Al Kindi, yes.

阿尔·金迪的译本一是难以阅读，二是严重错误。

The Al Kindi translation was A) unreadable and B) substantially incorrect.

至于难以阅读的部分，我们从未真正解决过，但至少这些翻译在字面上还算说得通，尽管缺乏可理解性。

Unreadable part we never quite dealt with, but at least the translations are literally plausible even if they're not intelligible.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，如果出版历史属实，这确实是你们和佐勒合作的第一次翻译，

I mean, I think especially if the publication history is true, this being the first one, that would have been you guys' first translation together with Zoller.

所以你们可能需要一些适应过程，尤其是佐勒，他独自翻译、研究这些文本至少已经有十年甚至二十年了。

So there would have been, I'm guessing, probably some getting used to Especially Zoller, he'd been on his own translating stuff studying the text at least for like a decade or two.

突然之间要和另外两位水平相当的人合作，我肯定需要一段时间来适应。

So all of a sudden working together with like two other guys, I'm sure of a similar level of intellect that would have taken some like getting used to.

对。

Yeah.

他确实还做了几项博纳蒂的翻译。

He did do several more of the Bonatti translations.

他之后还做了那些。

He did were after that.

是的。

Yeah.

或者说是博纳蒂的翻译。

Or Bonatti translations.

好吧。

All right.

那么，我们来看看，还有哪些问题？

So Let's see, what are the other questions?

你有星盘列表。

You have the chart list.

你有份清单吗？

Do you have a list?

我没有。

I don't.

是的，我正在调出整宫制。

Yeah, I'm just pulling up Whole sign houses.

你记得吗？对，就是这个。

Do you remember Oh yeah, that's it.

我刚刚重看了她的讲座。

I was just rewatching her lecture.

她声称的一件事是，你们曾说你们只讨论过整宫制，并且声称那是唯一的方法。

One of the things she claims is that you guys claimed that you only talked about whole sign houses and you claimed that that was the only system.

然而，我知道你们曾讨论过瓦伦斯著作中的宫位制，以及你们对瓦伦斯第三卷的翻译。

However, I know that you guys were talking about quadrant houses in Valens and your translation of book three of Valens.

而且我知道，在施密特翻译的托勒密第三卷中，他们也提到了这一点，他还引用了一段关于瓦伦斯描述等宫制的原文。

And I know even in Schmidt's translation of book three of Ptolemy that they talked about and he gave a passage about how Valens had a passage outlining equal houses.

所以我知道你们一直在讨论不同的宫位划分方法，试图厘清这些体系的历史演变，以及它们如何与整宫制相互融合，对吧？

So I know that you guys were discussing the different methods of house division and trying to figure out the history of how things happen and how those systems of house division integrated with whole sign houses, think, right?

我会说，更准确的说法是我们将整宫制视为众多古老的宫位系统之一，我认为这是正确的。

I would say probably more accurate to say that we regarded whole sign houses as one of the alternative old house systems, which is I think true.

我自身对它的使用已经发生了变化，我逐渐将两者融合在一起，比如关注中天宫位。

My own use of it has evolved where I have kind of integrated the two, as I say, like looking at the Midheaven houses.

不是伊朗人那种方式。

Not the way the Iranians do.

他们把中天作为第十宫的宫头，而东点，或者说赤道上升点，则作为第一宫的宫头。

They make the Midheaven the cusp of the tenth house and then the East point is the, or the Equatorial Ascendant is the cusp of the first house.

然后从黄经上升点开始均分宫位。

Then equal houses from the ascendant in longitude.

我认为中天应当被当作一个‘点’来处理，就像其他‘点’那样。

It is my belief that mid heaven should be treated as a lot in the same way the lots were treated.

对。

Right.

行星相对于中天星座所处的位置，决定了你代理行为的星盘。

Wherever planets fall in regards to the sign of the Midheaven, that's the chart of your proxies, your action.

对。

Right.

因为我认为你部分参考了瓦伦斯第五卷的内容，他在那里教导说，中天可以在图表的上半部分浮动，无论它落在哪个整宫，都会将整个星座标记为相应的主题，并与该区域的整宫主题重叠。

Because I think you took that partially from Book five of Valens where he teaches you that the Midheaven can float around the top part of the chart and that whatever whole sign house it falls in, it marks that entire sign with those topics and they double up with whatever the whole sign topics are in that section.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

我昨天刚查过这个。

I was just looking that up yesterday.

是的，具体在施密特译本的第30页。

Yes, it's on page 30 of the Schmidt translation to be exact.

我看了赖利版本的对应部分，如果我先接触到这个版本，根本不会注意到我所描述的这种实践方式。

I looked at the corresponding part in the Reilly and I would have to say if I'd encountered that first, would never have observed that demonstrating the practice I described.

对。

Right.

因为你是读了瓦伦斯这段文字后才获得这个想法，或者受到启发的吗？

Because it was like you got the idea or was inspired by reading that passage of Valens?

是的，这是它的译本。

Yeah, it's a translation of it.

你们做的一件非常棒的事情是，每当瓦伦斯给出一个示例星盘时，你们都在旁边附上了图表，并且经常添加脚注，将这些星盘与希腊占星图及其准确日期联系起来。

One of the things you guys did that's really cool is you went through and every time Valens had an example chart, you had a diagram next to it and you often had footnotes where you connected it with Greek horoscopes and the correct date of the chart.

你们还会对星盘中的星体位置进行评论，阐释和注解瓦伦斯的命盘解读，说明他为何会这样说。

And then you would also comment on the placements in the chart and kind of explicate and commentate on Valens' delineation and why he was saying certain things.

这一点非常重要：如果你仔细研究这些示例，会发现他绝大多数星盘都使用整宫制。

One of the things that that's really important is that if you go through the examples, the vast, vast majority of his charts use whole sign houses.

是的。

Yeah.

或者至少看起来是这样。

Or appear to.

如果列表中提到了中天，在描述该星盘的文本中却完全没有提及中天。

There's no mention of the If there's mention of a midheaven in the list, there's no mention of the Midheaven in the text describing it.

是的。

Yeah.

这就是霍尔丁所主张的一点：即使图表中没有提到中天，只要你知晓上升度数，仍然可以计算出中天。

And that's one of the things that Houlding is arguing is that even if the Midheaven is not mentioned in a chart, she says that it can still be calculated if you know the degree of the Ascendant.

但任何读过瓦伦斯著作的人都知道，这明显存在问题：瓦伦斯大约95%的图表中，根本没有提供上升的确切度数。

But the obvious problem with that that anybody that's read Valens knows is that the vast, vast majority of about 95% of Valens' charts, they don't contain the exact degree of the Ascendant.

他们只告诉你上升的星座。

They only tell you the rising sign.

是的。

Yeah.

她还不知道的是，他对星座的主时系统完全是胡扯。

They also what she also doesn't know is his essential times for the signs were totally bullshit.

第一卷里提到的主时系统吗？

The essential times outlined in book one?

是的。

Yeah.

它们其实是古代星盘体系中的系统B。

They're they're they were system b of the ancient chart of the ancient chart system.

System a was an earlier one.

System a was an earlier one.

They were accounting for in some strange way the precession of the equinoxes.

They were accounting for in some strange way the precession of the equinoxes.

And by the time valence had come along, system B was out of date significantly.

And by the time valence had come along, system B was out of date significantly.

That's one of the reasons why Ptolemy is so unambiguous about the tropical zodiac because this doesn't happen anymore.

That's one of the reasons why Ptolemy is so unambiguous about the tropical zodiac because this doesn't happen anymore.

You actually compute the damn rising rising times for the date of the chart if you're gonna do it that way.

You actually compute the damn rising rising times for the date of the chart if you're gonna do it that way.

Okay.

Okay.

But generally speaking in Valens, just seeing his chart examples over and over again that only list the rising sign and only list the Oftentimes even the planets are only given by sign, they're not given by degree.

But generally speaking in Valens, just seeing his chart examples over and over again that only list the rising sign and only list the Oftentimes even the planets are only given by sign, they're not given by degree.

Was that the thing primarily that led you to think that whole sign houses were being used in most of the chart examples?

Was that the thing primarily that led you to think that whole sign houses were being used in most of the chart examples?

让我调出来看一下。

Let me pull up.

我只是想调出一张星盘。

I was just going to pull up like a chart.

比如，这是瓦伦斯常用的一张星盘。

For example, here's a common chart for Valens.

来，我直接翻到他列出一堆星盘的那章。

Here, let me actually, I'll just scroll through a chapter where he's got a bunch.

这算是相当标准的了。

So this is a pretty standard.

我觉得这一章讲的是主限法。

I think this one's about profections.

瓦伦斯说：另一个例子，太阳在金牛座，月亮、金星、上升点在白羊座，土星在摩羯座，木星在处女座，火星在天蝎座，水星在双子座。

And Valens says, Another example, Sun in Taurus, Moon, Venus, Ascendant in Aries, Saturn in Capricorn, Jupiter in Virgo, Mars in Scorpio, Mercury in Gemini.

瓦伦斯提供的全部数据就是这些。

That's all the data that Valens gives.

从这些信息中，读者或学生需要根据这些内容构建一张星盘。

And then from that, the reader or the student, we're supposed to construct a chart based on that.

是的，这有力地支持了他完全采用星座方式的星盘，也就是另一种说法的整宫制。

Yeah, that is a pretty good argument for his doing totally sign wise charts, which is another way of saying whole sign houses.

对。

Right.

我的意思是，我推测这是因为如果你翻阅他的文集，会发现他提供的星盘中，95%都只给出了上升星座和其余行星的星座位置。

I mean, I assume just because that's basically 95% of his charts if you flip through the anthology where he's only giving the rising sign and the rest of the planets by sign.

但不仅如此，他还会对这些行星位置进行阐释或解读。

But then it's not just that he's giving those placements, he's then delineating or interpreting those placements.

比如他说，火星位于第八宫——死亡之宫，而火星又影响到土星所在的子女宫，对他而言，子女宫是第十宫。

Like he's saying Mars in the eighth place, the place of death where Mars is in the eighth sign and that it transmitted to Saturn in the place associated with children, which for him is the tenth place.

因此，他实际上将人们生活中真实发生的事件与整宫制的宫位布局联系了起来。

So he's actually connecting actual delineations of things that happened in people's lives with the actual whole sign house placement.

我认为这很好地证明了这种技术的强大之处，你确实可以做到这一点。

I would say that's a very good argument just how powerful that technique is, that you can do that.

对。

Right.

你可以拿一张只知道上升星座和行星大致星座位置的星盘，从中得出有意义的解读。

You can take a chart where all you know is the rising sign and the approximate positions of the signs of the planets and get something meaningful out of it.

我个人不会这么做，但这也恰恰证明了这种体系的强大之处，前提是这并非完全虚构——而我不认为它是虚构的。

I personally wouldn't do that, but think that argues for the power of the system right there, assuming this isn't entirely a work of fiction which I don't believe.

是的。

Yeah.

我只是想强调这一点，因为另一个论点是，她主张在现代之前，整个星座宫位系统在任何古代占星传统中根本不存在。

Well, just wanted to make that point because one of the other arguments is that she's arguing that whole sign houses didn't exist at all in ancient astrology in any tradition whatsoever prior to modern times.

这很难解释水母。

This would be hard to explain jellyfish.

这真的很难解释水母。

It'd really be hard to explain jellyfish.

是的。

Yeah.

印度传统。

The Indian tradition.

她无法解释印度传统。

Well, she can't explain the Indian tradition.

她也无法解释，已经发现了使用整宫制的阿拉伯星盘。

She can't explain also there's Arabic horoscopes that have been found that use whole sign houses.

还有，我认为是那个叫god的翻译。

There's And in the I think it's the translation that god.

今天我真是记不住名字了。

I'm really having trouble with names today.

AFA的那个人，你知道的，我们之前在聊

Guy at AFA, you know, we were talking about

詹姆斯·霍尔登？

James Holden?

霍尔登，对。

Holden, yes.

他翻译的阿布·阿里·阿尔·凯亚特提到过，关于全宫制的问题，我今天读到过相关内容。

His translation of Abu Ali al Qayat, he talks about the issue in connection with a whole sign houses somewhere I was reading today.

他认为中天是后来的编辑添加到星盘中的，原本并不存在，因为他一贯没有使用中天。

And he believed the Midheaven had been put in into the charts by subsequent editors that they weren't there originally because quite consistently he doesn't.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

有时他会加入中天，有时又不加，所以我把中天当作宫头来认真对待。

Would not put in the Midheaven sometimes and not on others, so I took the Midheaven seriously as a house cusp.

好吧，即使中天出现在星盘中，瓦伦斯证明的一点是，他们有时会把中天当作星盘上半部分的一个浮动点，它可以落在一个全宫制的宫位内。

Well, one of the things that even if the Midheaven is in the chart, one of the things that Valens proves is that they're sometimes treating the Midheaven as a floating point in the top half of the chart that can fall in a whole sign house.

也就是说，即使有中天，它仍然可能被用于全宫制的语境中。

It's like sometimes even when there's a Midheaven, it's still being used in a whole sign house context.

除非他们真正地将 quadrant 中天与 quadrant 下中天之间的度数进行三等分，并将星盘划分为四个象限，否则即使存在中天，也无法百分之百确定他们一定在使用象限宫制。

And unless they're actually trisecting the cusps between the degrees of the quadrant Midheaven and the quadrant Descendant and actually dividing the chart into quadrants, it's not ever fully 100% certain that they're using quadrant houses even if there's a Midheaven.

是的。

Yeah.

除非你看到中间宫头，否则无法判断他们使用的是哪种系统。

Until you see intermediate cusps, you can't show anything about how system they're using.

对。

Right.

因为就像在Solar Fire中，比如，让我分享一个星盘。

Because it's like in solar fire, for example, let me just share a chart.

这是当前的星盘。

This is a chart for right now.

这是我的星盘设置，我标注了上升点、中天度数和下降点度数，因为我关注这些敏感点，以及它们落在哪个整宫制宫位中，和它们强调了哪些行星。

This is me and how I have my chart set up and I have the Ascendant and the degree of the Midheaven and the degree of the Descendant and I see in the chart because I'm paying attention to those as sensitive points and what whole sign houses they fall in and what planets they're emphasizing.

有意思。

Interesting.

我们这其实是在水星的星座范围内讨论，对吧？

We're doing this within both the signs of Mercury, aren't we?

关注月亮和火星吗？

Doing the the moon and Mars?

或者不，是两个角度。

Or no, both of the angles.

是的，你说得对。

Yeah, you're right.

对。

Yeah.

我们实际上是从零度处女座上升开始的。

We started with actually zero Virgo rising.

重点是

The point is

你选了长升度的星座，真不错。

Good thing you picked the sign of long ascension.

对。

Right.

不过有一点，因为你后来在《山间占星家》杂志上发表了几篇关于整宫制的文章。

One of the points though, because you eventually wrote a couple of articles on whole sign houses in The Mountain Astrologer magazine.

我认为，除了翻译工作之外，这是你最初开始发表文章的方式之一

And I think that's, aside from the translations, that's one of the ways that you first started publishing

我也有关于这方面的书。

I also had the book on it.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为你参考了1999年那两篇关于整宫制的TMA文章。

I think you took the two TMA articles that were written in 1999 on whole sign houses.

我想你借鉴了其中一些材料，并在2000年将其整理成书。

And I think you took some of that material and turned it into the book in 2000.

对吗？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

顺便说一下，这本书至今仍在印刷，如果有人感兴趣的话。

The book's still in print by the way, if anybody's interested.

对。

Right.

在你的网站上，我认为人们可以下载到它的PDF版本。

On your website, I think people can get like a PDF of it.

是的。

Yeah.

但为什么呢？

Why though?

因为对你来说，当你第一次在希腊文本或瓦伦斯的著作中看到整宫制时，你感到印象深刻且兴奋。

Because one of the things for you is that you were actually, I think impressed and excited about whole sign houses once you had seen it in the Greek text first or in Valens.

然后，一旦你开始在实践中使用它，你会发现它有一些特别之处——尽管直到20世纪80年代你对宫位系统还持怀疑态度。

And then once you started using it in practice, there was something about it where even though you'd been kind of skeptical about houses up until the 1980s

这是我见过的第一个始终有效的系统。

This is the first one I saw that consistently worked.

好的。

Okay.

这就是答案。

That's the answer.

不过这里有几个需要注意的地方。

Now there are a few gotchas here.

其中一个就是浮动的中天。

One of them is the floating midheaven.

因为无论中天位于哪个宫位，它都关系到事业、行动等等，即使它在第十一宫或第九宫。

Because wherever the mid heaven is does pertain to career, action, and so on and so forth, even if it's the eleventh house or the ninth house.

今天我遇到一个例子，有个人想预约我做占星咨询，她出生在尼加拉瓜，出生时间是大概的。

I had And an example that happened today, had a person who wanted an appointment with me for a consultation and she was born in Nicaragua and her birth time was sort of approximate.

于是我根据这个大致的出生时间排了盘，看了看她人生中的事件，发现这个星盘不可能是对的。

So I erected the time for the approximate birth, excuse me, the approximate time of birth and I looked at what had happened in our life and said this chart can't be correct.

使用整宫制，我确定了这一点，同时我也使用多重规则，包括命主星和宫主星。

Using whole sign houses I determined that the, and I also use the multiple rule I use the Almutants as well as sign rulers.

They're not the same.

They're not the same.

Look what I want to see is the ninth a ruler or inhabitant of the ninth house either ruling or aspecting a planet in the fourth house.

Look what I want to see is the ninth a ruler or inhabitant of the ninth house either ruling or aspecting a planet in the fourth house.

Now the fourth house involves the Midheaven, the IC namely, but it also involves the fourth sign from the ascendant.

Now the fourth house involves the Midheaven, the IC namely, but it also involves the fourth sign from the ascendant.

And when I spoke to her again, she found that that's when her mother had gone to the hospital.

And when I spoke to her again, she found that that's when her mother had gone to the hospital.

She was born somewhere between two and 3PM.

She was born somewhere between two and 3PM.

So I did the chart for 02:30 and I said, that one had it.

So I did the chart for 02:30 and I said, that one had it.

She was born on a foreign country, namely Nicaragua.

She was born on a foreign country, namely Nicaragua.

Wow, okay.

Wow, okay.

She lives in Florida now.

She lives in Florida now.

It was just immediately.

It was just immediately.

No ambiguity.

No ambiguity.

I can't do that with any of the quadrant house systems.

I can't do that with any of the quadrant house systems.

Right.

Right.

So one of your realizations it seems like during the course of the 1990s was just that you felt like for you at least personally that that was a compelling house system and all of a sudden you felt like your delineations were working better than you were used to in the years up to that point.

So one of your realizations it seems like during the course of the 1990s was just that you felt like for you at least personally that that was a compelling house system and all of a sudden you felt like your delineations were working better than you were used to in the years up to that point.

Yes.

Yes.

I got a little improvement with Cox, but I'll tell you what the biggest problem I had was the succeeding houses didn't work worth a damn.

I got a little improvement with Cox, but I'll tell you what the biggest problem I had was the succeeding houses didn't work worth a damn.

他们受到 quadrant 宫位系统和整宫制宫位系统之间差异的影响最为严重。

They are more badly affected by the difference between quadrant house systems and whole sign house systems than any other group.

我得不到正确的 significators，正确的 disposition。

I didn't get the right significators, right dispositors.

当我开始使用整宫制宫位系统时，我可以谈论一个人的金钱、借贷、生育子女、朋友、团体和关联，这些都变得合理了。

When I started using the whole sign house system, I could talk about a person's money, I could talk about their borrowing money, I could talk about them having children and friends and groups and associations and that made sense.

对。

Right.

是的，我的经历也是如此。

Yeah, that was my experience as well.

你实际上提到了 Koch 宫位系统。

You mentioned actually the Koch system of house division.

事实上，关于这一点有一件特别有趣的事，我想你会很乐意听我分享。

Actually, there's something really funny about that that you'll probably love to hear I wanted to share with you.

但我发现了一本很古老的冷门占星书籍，是 Koch 宫位系统的发明者威廉·科克，与另一位德国学者纳皮赫于1959年合著的关于宫位划分的书。

But I found this old obscure astrology book that William Coke, the inventor of the Coke house system, together with another German scholar named Napich in 1959 that was on house division.

我在那本书中发现，他们确实认识到全宫制在希腊传统中是存在的。

And I found in that book that it actually they recognized that whole sign houses existed in the Greek tradition.

哦，哇。

Oh, wow.

这真令人印象深刻。

That's impressive.

你懂德语吗？

You read German?

我不懂，但最初是在Skyscript论坛上有人提醒我的，一位德国占星师指出了这一点，之后我与他私下交流过。

No, but it was brought to my attention actually originally on the Skyscript forum, a German astrologer pointed it out and then I corresponded with him privately.

我的朋友珍·扎特帮我弄到了这本书，她为我翻译了那段文字，如果你想知道的话。

And my friend Jen Zart, I got ahold of the book and she translated the passage for me if to you hear it.

我明白了。

I see it.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

克洛珀斯。

Clopers.

好的。

Okay.

我没认出第二个名字，但我确实知道。

I didn't recognize the second name, but I yes.

星盘与天宫，古代的根基。

Horoscope on heavenly houses, foundations in ancient times.

是的。

Yep.

对。

Yeah.

所以自然中的根基。

So foundations in nature.

好的。

Okay.

意思是，不，这里我就直接翻译Jen的部分吧，因为是外文的。

Mean, nah, here I'll just do Jen's translation because it's foreign.

好的。

Fine.

是的。

Yeah.

上面写着：哦，

Says Oh,

我相信她的外语水平相当不错。

I'm sure her foreign languages are quite good.

是的，她获得了德语博士学位。

Yeah, she got a PhD in German.

它说，埃及的世俗占星家们，正如布歇·勒克莱尔准确指出的那样，完全反叛了本质时间理论的复杂性，试图仅通过佩迪西里斯表的进展来确定上升的黄道度数或命宫，并且不使用其他基本点。

So it says, The Egyptian lay astrologers who were as Bouche Leclerc accurately said in absolute rebellion against the intricacies of the theory of the essential times sought to determine the rising ecliptic degree or horoscopeos with their on mere progression touching table of pedisiris and used no other cardinal points.

他们如阿拜多斯星盘所示，将行星置于黄道十二宫划分的命宫中，并将命宫所在的星座视为第一宫，下一个星座为第二宫，依此类推。

They placed as shown in the horoscope from Abydos the planets in the horoscopeos in the 12 fold schema of the zodiac and viewed the sign in which the horoscope resides as the first house, the next sign is the second and so on.

他们将星座和宫位等同起来。

They equated signs and houses.

最古老的实际上没有宫位的方法，后来也被一些博学的占星家使用，比如大约在四月的波尔科斯，他除了使用上升点（即命宫）外，还把真正的中天纳入了星盘。

The oldest actually houseless manner was used later also by learned astrologers like for example, Polkos around April who alongside the horoscopeos, which is the Ascendant, also inserted the true Midheaven into the diagram.

这种将星座等同于宫位的方法也被印度占星家采用，至今仍被正统的印度教占星家使用。

This sign equals house method was also adopted by Indian astrologers and is still used today by Orthodox Hindu astrologers.

我不了解这段内容，因为我从未拥有过这本书。

I was unaware of that passage since I've never had a copy of the book.

我知道。

I know.

这其实是一本非常罕见的书。

It's actually a very rare book.

我查了霍尔登的参考书目，詹姆斯·霍尔登的藏书中并没有这本书。

I checked Holden's bibliography and James Holden didn't have this book in his library.

我后来意识到，霍尔登实际上是独立发现了整宫制。

What I realized later is that Holden basically discovered whole sign houses independently.