罗伯特·佐勒，复兴中世纪占星术的先驱

是的

Yeah.

那是他反复提到的一件事，我记得他当时说过。

And it was something that he repeated and I remember him saying then.

我和这个观点有着一段非常复杂而微妙的关系，因为当时我觉得他的说法太过夸张、极端，甚至有点傲慢，某种程度上现在我还是这么觉得。

And I've had a really interesting complicated relationship with that because at the time, I remember thinking how over the top and extremist and almost arrogant that that sounded, which to some extent is still true.

我认为，即使是在其他占星历史学者的学术会议上，他以那种方式发表那篇论文，也显得很奇怪。

I think it was still weird for him to present that paper in that way perhaps at an academic conference of other historians of the history of astrology.

但另一方面，我也看到过一些情况，确实占星有时能让你洞察现实，即使你当时并不知道它是对的，甚至认为它是错的，后来才意识到占星一直以来所说的其实是正确的。

But on the other hand, I've seen some ways in which that is true where sometimes the astrology does give you insight into reality despite you sometimes not knowing that it's right and sometimes even you thinking that it's wrong or thinking otherwise and later only coming to realize that what the astrology was saying all along was correct.

我逐渐明白了他为何会从这个角度看待事物，以及在哪些方面这种观点可能确实有其道理。

And I've gotten a better sense of why he started approaching things from that perspective and some ways in which that might have actually been true.

是的，我认为你说得对，这是一种方法和视角。

Yeah, I think you're right to say it's an approach and a perspective.

因为即使占星并非仅仅是唯一客观衡量现实的标准。

Because even if it's not simply true that astrology is the only objective measure of reality.

我想这就是我对它的记忆。

I think that's how I remember it.

好的。

Okay.

他会说，这可能并不完全正确，但至少如果你以这种方式行事，并专注于客观现实的理念，可能会更好。

He would say that that may not strictly be true, but it might be good if you at least acted that way and focused on the idea of objective reality.

所以不要看着星盘，看着海王星，然后问自己：我对海王星有什么感受？

So don't look at the chart and look at Neptune and then ask yourself, Well, how do I feel about Neptune?

假装海王星是一个客观中立的观察者，专注于海王星本身在做什么，因为我们所有人某种程度上都困在自己的精神牢笼里。

Pretend Neptune is an objective neutral observer and focus on what Neptune itself is doing because we are all in various ways in our own mental prisons.

这个教训是：你比你想象的更妄想，比你想象的更错误，比你想象的更充满一厢情愿。

And the lesson of this is that you are more deluded than you think, and you are more wrong than you think, and you are more filled with wishful thinking than you think.

所以，如果你说占星术是唯一客观衡量现实的标准，它就会迫使你质疑自己的精神牢笼和妄想——如果星盘中火星正在做些糟糕的事，就别美化它，直面它，学会如何管理它，而不是退缩到你的精神牢笼里。

So if you say that astrology is the only objective measure of reality, it forces you to question your own mental prisons and delusions so that if Mars is doing something awful in the chart, stop whitewashing it, come to grips with it, and learn how to manage it instead of retreating to your mental prison.

有时候，那么

Sometimes then

我记得他的解读风格有时非常直白，甚至可能过于尖锐，他对客户做出的关于星盘及其对人生意义的解释，言辞太过直接。

I remember that his delineation style could be very straightforward then and very stark perhaps, too stark in the statements that he would make to clients about what his interpretation was of their chart and what that meant about their life.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

他的待人方式或许有所欠缺，但有时候我想，也许确实需要这种震撼疗法。

His bedside manner maybe left something to be desired, but sometimes I think he might say sometimes you need the shock treatment.

没错。

Sure.

我有过一些经历，当时星盘传递的信息很明确，他也会谈到这一点。

And I've had experiences where the chart is telling And he would talk about this.

这里有一个例子，能说明你之前觉得他的说法荒谬，但后来渐渐开始理解他的观点。

Here's an example to go along with this that you said it sounded outrageous and then later on you kind of came around to seeing it from his way.

嗯。

Mhmm.

他会谈论自己如何进行公开的星盘解读。

He would talk about how he would do public chart readings.

因此，当他教授某些内容时，他会说：你必须对占星术有信心，当你面对一群人看到一张星盘时，你能直接说出它的含义，而不会感到害怕，这可能会让人紧张。

And so when he would teach something, he said, You have to have confidence in the astrology that when you see a chart and you're in front of a group of people, you can say what it means and you don't feel worried about it, which can be scary.

很多人永远不会这样做，这表明他们对自己的占星知识还不够信任。

A lot of people would never do that, which could show you that they don't quite trust their astrology.

是的。

Sure.

但他会说：有时候我面对一群人，人们请我查看他们的星盘，你能感觉到他们期待某种特定的答案，但星盘显示的却不一样。

But he would say, Sometimes I'm in front of a group and people ask me to look at their chart and you can tell they want a certain kind of answer, but the chart says different.

他说：所以我直接告诉他们星盘显示的内容，而他们会说我撒谎。

He said, So I tell them what the chart says, and they will tell me that I'm lying.

他会说：占星术从来不会错。

And he would say, The astrology is never wrong.

撒谎的是他们自己。

They are the ones who are lying.

我当时想，天啊，这得有多自负啊？

And I thought, Wow, how arrogant can you get?

你是在告诉我，有人会对你撒谎，关于他们自己的星盘？

You're telling me that someone is just gonna lie to you about their own chart.

这看起来简直荒谬透顶，直到它也发生在我身上

So it just seemed so outrageous until it happened to

我身上。

me.

是的。

Mhmm.

我也有过几次经历，包括在一群人面前，解读星盘时，人们知道我会怎么解读，而且我不会美化它，但那个人却会说：‘不对，这不是真的’，或‘从来没发生过这种事’。

And I've had times when I have, including in groups of people, read a chart and people knew how I was going to read the chart and I wasn't going to whitewash it, and the person would say, No, that's not true, or That never happened.

你在说什么？

What are you talking about?

然后我会想，天啊，也许我完全搞错了。

And then I would think, Wow, maybe I'm totally out of it.

后来我发现，其实星盘是对的，也许那个人只是感到尴尬。

And then I would find out later that, No, the chart was right and that maybe they were embarrassed.

我见过一些案例，人们对自己星盘的含义产生了误解，但后来发现星盘完全正确。

I've seen cases where people have been deluding themselves about what the chart means, and we find out later that the chart was absolutely right.

所以最初看似荒谬的事情，我后来逐渐开始从他的角度去理解。

So what seemed outrageous at first, I then came around to seeing things more from his perspective.

是的。

Yeah.

我也遇到过类似的情况，包括在一次现场星盘解读中，几位占星师对同一个人进行了解读，虽然视角不同，但都看到了相同的内容，而那个人却并不认同。

I've had instances like that as well and instances like that including reading a live chart example where several astrologers did of the same person and all were seeing the same thing from different perspectives, but the person didn't really confirm it.

后来我们私下了解到，那个人生活中确实发生了与那部分星盘相关的重要事件。

Then later we learned afterwards privately that something major had happened in that part of the person's life.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我确实理解了这一点，也有了更深的体会。

So I definitely see that and I understood better.

在一味认为自己总是对的，或认为对方在撒谎，以及不过分自信于自己的能力，与培养一定程度的技能和自信之间，或许仍需要某种平衡。

There's still maybe some sort of moderation or balance between just assuming that you're always right or assuming that the person is lying or whatever and not getting too overly confident about one's abilities versus the importance of developing some level of skill and confidence.

我不确定这个中间点究竟是什么，但我至少现在更理解这个观点了。

And I'm not sure what that middle ground is, but I at least understand the point better now.

是的，我认为我们的方法确实需要一次真正的调整。

Yeah, I think my impression is we needed a real correction to our approach.

所以如果像天秤座那样，讲究平衡，那我们之前已经失衡太久了。

So if it's like Libra, if it's like a balance, we've been like this for too long.

没错。

Sure.

他确实需要狠狠地纠正一下，才能让事情重新恢复平衡。

And he really needed to slam down hard to get things more in balance.

这完全说得通。

That makes total sense.

这几乎完美地总结了他对待传统占星学的全部做法，因为他把一切都推向了极端，但那是因为他长期以来是唯一这么做的人。

That's a great summary of just about everything he did with traditional astrology actually because he took everything to that extreme, but it was because he was like the only guy doing it for so long.

而长期以来，这恰恰是另一个极端，所以他试图加以平衡，如果能这样去理解他的工作，或许会更有意义。

And it was such the opposite extreme for so long that he was trying to balance it out and maybe being able to contextualize his work like that would make more sense.

是的。

Yeah.

要么没人做，要么没人感兴趣去做，所以他不得不成为那个做的人。

Either no one else was doing it or no one else was interested in doing it, and so he had to be the guy to do it.

我认为他做得很好。

And I think he did it well.

他改变了许多人的生活，并提升了占星术的整体水平。

He changed a lot of lives and improved astrology for it.

是的，毫无疑问。

Yeah, definitely.

如今，传统占星术已成为主流，这在很大程度上要归功于他的贡献。

And now the traditional astrology has become a mainstream thing thanks in no small part to what he did.

所以这说得通。

So that makes sense.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，感谢你今天参与这次对话。

Well, thanks for joining me today for this.

我在想还有什么其他趣事。

I'm trying to think of any other anecdotes.

可能还有一些，但我认为这样就很好了，适合就此结束这次讨论。

There's probably a few, but I think that's probably good and a good place to leave this discussion.

所以，感谢你今天参与。

So thanks for joining me today.

嗯，谢谢你邀请我。

Well, thanks for having me on.

我很感激。

I appreciate it.

谢谢你能让我稍微回报一下我的老师。

Thanks for letting me pay back a little more to my teacher.

是的，谢谢。

Yeah, thank you.

好吧，我现在要播放一段来自2010年《传统占星电台》的罗伯特·佐勒访谈录音。

All right, well, I'm gonna play and transition at this point into playing this interview from Robert Zoller from 2010 from Traditional Astrology Radio.

抱歉，音质不是很好，但希望能让你对罗伯特·佐勒及其人生和工作有更多了解。

Sorry, the audio quality isn't great, but hopefully it'll give you some more insight into Robert Zoller and his life and his work.

欢迎收听WTAR传统占星电台。

Welcome to WTAR Traditional Astrology Radio.

我是克里斯·布伦南，今天是2011年1月9日，星期日。

My name is Chris Brennan, and today is Sunday, 01/09/2011.

今晚我将采访世界知名的中世纪占星师罗伯特·佐勒。

Tonight I will be interviewing world renowned medieval astrologer Robert Zoller.

佐勒被广泛认为是最早倡导回归传统占星技术和方法的占星师之一，尤其在20世纪80年代初，他通过著作《阿拉伯部分：预测的失落钥匙》开启了这一运动。

Zoller is widely recognized as one of the leading astrologers to advocate a return to traditional astrological techniques and methods, especially starting in the early 1980s with his book The Arabic Parts in A Lost Key to Prediction.

通过他的工作，他在全球范围内推动了传统占星术的复兴，据我所见，几乎无处不在。

So through his work he's played a major role in spurring the revival of traditional astrology around the world, pretty much everywhere from what I've seen.

他还因在9·11事件发生前就做出过相关预测而独具特色。

He also has the distinction of being one of the few astrologers who issued predictions about nineeleven prior to the attacks.

所以在开始之前，我应该说明，关于佐勒工作的更多信息可以在他的网站www.virginastrology.com上找到。

So before we get started I should state that more information about Zoller's work can be found on his website, www.virginastrology.com.

所以，罗伯特，欢迎来到节目。

So Robert, welcome to the show.

谢谢你，克里斯。

Thank you, Chris.

很高兴能来到这里。

It's great to be here.

是的。

Yeah.

感谢你参与节目。

Thanks for joining me.

我想先从一些关于你的个人背景开始，谈谈你是谁、来自哪里，以及你做过些什么。

So I wanted to start off with just some biographical information about who you are and where you've come from and what you've done.

那么首先，你是怎么开始接触占星术的？

So first things first, how did you get into astrology?

嗯，我小时候身体不太好。

Well, I was pretty sick as a kid.

我有哮喘，没法像我想的那样参加体育活动。

I had asthma, and I couldn't participate in sports as much as I would have liked.

所以我只好待在家里，读我能拿到的任何书。

So I ended up staying at home and reading just about everything I could get my hands on.

到六年级结束时，我已经读完了所有凯尔特神话、日耳曼神话和希腊神话与传说。

So by the time I finished sixth grade, I'd read all the Celtic myths, all the Germanic myths, all the Greek myths and legends.

在这个过程中，我接触到了一种叫做民间传说的东西。

And in the course of doing that, I came across something called folklore.

民间传说主要是格林兄弟中的一个写的。

And folklore was primarily the Grimm's brothers or one of the Grimm's brothers.

我现在记不清是哪一个了。

I forget which one now.

但不管怎样，我把这些东西都读完了。

But anyway, I read off all that stuff.

在那里，我了解了魔法师、独角兽以及类似的东西。

And in there, I learned about magicians and unicorns and things of that sort.

但魔法师、占星师和炼金术士真正引起了我的兴趣。

But the magicians and the astrologers and the alchemists really intrigued me.

所以直到我十六岁左右，我才得到了第一本关于占星术的书，那本书是爱德华·林道的《人人都能懂的占星术》，我想书名大概是这个。

So it wasn't until I was in the century at about 16 years of age so I was able to get my first book on astrology, and that was Edward Lindau's book, Astrology for Everyone, I think is the title of it.

但当时我没法深入研究，因为我还没准备好上大学。

But I couldn't do much with it at the time because I hadn't prepared to go to college.

于是我把它放在了书架最里层，搁置一旁。

So I put it on the back shelf, back burner, so to speak.

直到我从第一所大学毕业后，才再次翻看它。

And I didn't look at it again until I was out of college, the first college I went to.

那是六十年代，你可以想象，1965到1968年间，大学里根本没多少人认真读书，尤其是在纽约。

It was in the '60s, as you can imagine, 1965 to 'sixty eight, there wasn't a lot of college going on in the colleges, especially in New York.

所以我比预期的有更多时间，于是开始尽可能多地阅读关于占星术的资料。

So I had a lot more time than I thought I would, and I got into reading as much as I could about astrology at that point.

一件事引出另一件事，我找到了一位老师，但最终和我的老师产生了分歧。

And one thing led to another, and I got a teacher, and eventually disagreed with my teacher.

他帮助我走上了正确的方向。

And he was instrumental in setting me on the right strength, right the right track.

这位就是著名的佐尔坦·梅森，是你接触传统占星术的引路人吗？

And this is the infamous Zoltan Mason who introduced you to traditional astrology?

是的。

Yeah.

这位是佐尔坦·梅森先生，他是我学习占星术的第一位老师，他告诉我，如果我想深入真正的占星术，就必须学习语言，尤其是古典语言。

That was mister Zollton Mason who was my teacher my first teacher in astrology who told me that if I wanted to get into the real astrology, I had to get into languages and into the classical languages in particular.

他一口气列出了好几种古典语言：拉丁语、梵语、希伯来语、阿拉伯语，滔滔不绝，然后说：‘我会盯着你的。’

Rattling off a number of classical languages, read Latin, Sanskrit, Hebrew, Arabic, went on and on and Then he said, I'll get at you.

滚出我的办公室。

Get out of my office.

他有点粗暴。

He was a little bit rough.

他自己也经历了很多困难。

He had a tough time with it himself.

是的。

Yeah.

他在二战后来到美国。

Came to The United States after the second world war.

从匈牙利（我认为他当时在那里）前往美国并不容易。

And it wasn't easy to get to The United States from Hungary, which is, I think, where he was at the time.

最终，他成功来到美国，成为公民，并一直住在这里，直到1998年左右去世。

Eventually, he did get to get into The United States, became a citizen, and lived here until about 1998, something like that, when he passed away.

所以，正是在那时，你开始学习古代语言和研究更早期的传统著作吗？

So it was at this point that you started studying ancient languages and started studying older traditional authors?

是的。

Yeah.

我意识到我们有一家很棒的书店，梅森先生在61街和62街之间的61号街上开了这家店，我想是这样。

I realized that we had a wonderful bookstore, mister Mason did, on 61st Street between 61st and 62nd, I think it was.

但它实际上位于列克星敦大道，而且在二楼。

But it was on Lexington Avenue, and it was the 2nd Floor up.

人们总是要走上这些吱呀作响的楼梯。

They used to walk up these creaking stairs.

没有人能悄悄地在他上楼时偷袭他，因为楼梯响得特别大。

Nobody would have ever been able to sneak up on him coming up those stairs because the stairs creaked very loudly.

然后你会走过一扇装有铃铛的门，他会从后面房间走出来，问你：‘你在找什么？’

And then you'd walk through this door that had a bell on it, and he would come out from the back room and he would say something like, what are you looking for?

语气几乎带着威胁。

In this almost threatening sort of manner.

人们会说：‘我想随便看看。’

And people would say, I wanna browse.

不许随便看。

No browsing.

你必须知道自己在找什么。

You must know what you're looking for.

但当他度过最初的粗鲁开场后，他其实是个非常友善的人，而且非常乐于助人。

But after he got past his rough introduction, he was a real sweetheart, and he was real helpful.

他觉得你是认真的。

And he thought you were serious.

于是我让他相信我是认真的，他对我的选书提供了很多帮助。

So I convinced him that I was serious, and he was very helpful to me with the books that he had.

那时候，关于占星术的书出版得很少。

And at that time, there weren't many books published on astrology.

占星术还没有进入出版界。

Astrology still hadn't made it into the publishing world.

尽管人们购买了大量的书籍，只要是能买到的都会买走，但出版商本身对印什么书非常谨慎。

Although people were buying a lot of books, whatever was available would be bought, but the publishers themselves were very cautious with what books they would print out.

这意味着市面上流通着大量二手书，其中一些是真正出色的、非常珍贵的书籍。

Now that meant that you had a lot of secondhand books floating around, some of which were really outstanding books, very valuable.

其中一本书是让·巴蒂斯特·莫兰·德·维勒弗朗什。

One of these books was Jean Baptiste Moraine de Villefranche.

让·巴蒂斯特·米兰达·维勒弗朗什，《西班牙占星术》。

Jean Baptiste Miranda Villefranche, Astrologia Gallega.

这本书成为了他占星教学的核心内容。

And that became the core of his teaching on astrology.

大约在我向他抱怨他只在教通俗占星术、哪里才能学到真正的东西时，

About the time that I complained to him that he was just teaching pop astrology, where can I get the real stuff?

他这时才告诉我关于语言的事。

And that's when he told me about the languages.

正是语言让我开始朝学习语言的方向努力，尤其是学习拉丁语，我在纽约曼哈顿第四十二街的夏季拉丁语学院学习了拉丁语。

And it was the languages that I went in the direction of learning languages, in particular learning Latin, which I did at the Summer Latin Institute in New York on 42nd Street in Manhattan.

我在十一个星期内完成了两年半的拉丁语学习。

And I did 11 I did two and a half years of Latin in eleven weeks.

有一位女性之前参加过这个课程，我认为是在我参加的1974年课程前一年，她对这门课程印象极为深刻，课程强度极高，以至于之后她经常在梦中被拉丁语变位的出租车追逐。

One of the women who had done this course prior, I think it was a year prior to the one I was there, which was 'seventy four, she was so impressed and was such an intensive course that she suffered thereafter from being pursued in her dreams by taxis perifractic.

想象一下。

Imagine that.

所以我学习拉丁语，以便能够接触原始资料。

So I learned Latin so that I could get into the original sources.

然后我在1975年至1977年间继续在城市学院的中世纪与文艺复兴研究所跟随玛德琳·科斯曼学习拉丁语。

And then I continued my Latin, 1975 through '77, at the Institute for Medieval Renaissance Studies at City College under Madeleine Cosman.

在那里，我很幸运地遇到了科斯曼博士。

And I had very good fortune up there to meet Doctor.

科斯曼发现她对我的研究方向持开放态度。

Cosman, find that she was amenable to the kind of research that I was interested in.

她给了我极大的帮助。

She helped me a great deal.

她引荐我认识了理查德·莱梅，并让我短暂地成为他的学生，而莱梅是全球权威，这正是我想要追随的方向。

And she put me in contact with and became a student briefly of Richard LeMay, who is the world's authority and I was fortunate because that's which I wanted to go in.

在我1970年至1974年跟随佐尔坦学习期间，我意识到在吉多·博纳蒂的著作中，真正存在的占星术。

While I was studying with Zoltan, which was between 1970 and 1974, I realized that that there was a real astrology out there in the work of Guido Bonatti.

因此我知道有一种非常严肃的占星流派，被称为流行占星术，而流行占星术一直延续至今。

So I was aware that there was a very serious brand of astrology known as Pop Astrology, and the Pop Astrology has continued, of course, to present day.

它试图通过把自己伪装成真正的占星术来欺骗我们，但这种把戏不会长久，因为它根本行不通。

It is in the process of trying to fool us by assimilating itself with real astrology, but it won't be able to fool us for long because it just doesn't work.

而吉多·博纳蒂和加拉塔西马兰达·维拉·丰所做的一切，确实有效。

Whereas the stuff that Guido Bonatti and Galatasimaranda Villa Fong did, certainly does work.

我的意思是，你竟然遇到了理查德·莱梅，他是中世纪占星术权威——九世纪中世纪占星家阿布·马沙尔的全球顶尖专家，而且我认为他编纂了阿布·马沙尔最重要著作的标准批判性版本。

I mean, that's extraordinary that you ran into Richard LeMay, who's the world expert on the leading medieval astrologer, ninth century medieval astrologer Abu Ma'shar, and who I think compiled the standard critical edition of his greatest work.

你有幸遇见了他，随后在这一时期开始熟悉博纳蒂，而这成为了你第一本书的基础，对吧？

You had the fortune of running into him, and then that led to, around this time, becoming familiar with Bonatti, and that became the basis of your first book, correct?

是的。

I did.

我后来受到克拉克·斯蒂尔曼的接触，他当时在纽约的怀瑟书店工作，那是一家专门服务神秘学和东方文化爱好者的书店。

I was approached by Clark Stillman, who was at that time working for Wiser in New York, which was a bookstore that catered to occult and oriental interests.

克拉克请我写一本关于阿拉伯部分的书。

And Clark asked me to write a book on the Arabic Parts.

当时还没有人写过这样的书。

Nobody had written such a book at that point.

芬·刘易林·乔治在他的《占星学A到Z》和《线性器》中写了一大段内容，这本书我曾经拥有过。

Finn Llewellyn George wrote a large section of his A to Z Astrology and The Lineator, which was a book that I had at one point.

我现在并不太看重它，但它确实是一次百科全书式的尝试。

I don't really think so much of it now, but it was a really it was an encyclopedic attempt.

这是一次非常出色的尝试，试图编纂一部占星学百科全书，或许我该这么表达。

It was a great attempt to produce an encyclopedia of astrology, perhaps that's the way I should say it.

结果发现，这本书在西海岸尤其有影响力，如果我没记错的话，我那时也喜欢过这一本。

And it turns out that that book was influential in, especially in the West Coast where, if I'm not mistaken, where I enjoyed this one.

但那本书的译名是《高卢占星学》，最初对我产生了巨大影响。

But which was a, French astrology is the title of the translation of the title of that, Gallic astrology, with a tremendous influence on me initially.

现在随着我对吉多·博纳蒂的兴趣加深，我已经超越了它——请正确念出他的名字。

I think I've gotten beyond it now with my interest in Guido Bonatti, used the proper pronunciation of his name.

我总是因为把那些名字和元音连读而受到批评，它们本该带着意大利口音才对。

I'm always being criticized for slurring these names and these vowels together so they should properly be struggling with an Italian accent.

吉多·博纳蒂。

Guido Bonatti.

这位就是吉多·博纳蒂，顺便说一下，但丁在他的《神曲》中将他置于第八层地狱，说：我看到吉多·博纳蒂在第八层，他的头永远向后转着，直至永恒，只因他胆敢试图证明或预知未来。

And this is the same Guido Bonatti, who, by the way, Dante placed in the eighth circle of hell in his Commedia Divina, where he says, I saw Guido Bonatti in the eighth circle with his head turned around backwards forever throughout all eternity for having all the audacity to try to prove the future or predict the future.

但他在地狱的这一层里，把博纳蒂放在了非常显赫的同伴之中，这正是他在诗中安排的位置。

But he puts Bonatti in very good company in the circle of hell, which is where he's actually lodged him in that poem.

他一直与一位非常著名的阿拉伯占星家和炼金术士为伴，他的名字是伊本·海扬。

And he has been in the company of one very famous Arabic astrologer and alchemist named this is Ibn Hayyan.

贾比尔·伊本·海扬是他的全名，他在占星术或炼金术中的地位，就如同托勒密在占星术中的地位一样，是这些领域知识的巅峰。

Jabir Ibn Hayyan is the man's name, who is to astrology, or is to alchemy, what Ptolemy is to astrology, namely the distance, the far pinnacle of the knowledge on these subjects.

所以在八十年代初，你出版了关于阿拉伯部分的书，大量借鉴了吉多·博纳蒂的著作，此后，我猜你的占星事业开始腾飞了，但在当时占星界，作为少数——甚至可能是唯一——热衷于传统占星术的人，你的感受如何？

So at this point in the early eighties, you release your book on the Arabic Parts, drawing largely on Guido Bonatti, and then basically your career in astrology I assume starts taking off, but what is it like being one of the only guys, if not the only guy, who's into traditional astrology at this point in the astrological community?

嗯，那正是当时的状况。

Well, that was exactly the condition, the situation.

起初，根本没人想要它。

Initially, I couldn't give it away.

我走访了各个占星俱乐部和组织，请求给予时间来讲述这个主题，最初从伊朗协会那里争取到了一点时间，但大多数这些组织都感到有些茫然，你可以想象。

I went around to the various astrological clubs and organizations and asked for time to speak on this subject, and then got a little bit of time from the Iranian Society at the very beginning, but most of these organizations were a little bit at a loss, as you can imagine.

他们从未听说过这些东西。

They've never heard of this stuff.

他们对自己的历史一无所知。

They didn't know anything about their own history.

这与我在加拿大从一位阿拉伯语教师那里得到的反应有些类似。

And it's sort of analogous to the response that I got in Canada from a teacher of Arabic.

当这位阿拉伯语教师问我为什么学习阿拉伯语时，我告诉她我是作家，我想我当时是用阿拉伯语对她说的。

And I said to this teacher of Arabic when she asked me why I was studying Arabic, I said that I am a writer, and I believe I said that to her in Arabic.

我觉得我的发音应该是正确的。

I think it's the proper pronunciation for that.

阿拉伯语是一种美妙的语言。

It's a lovely language Arabic.

它在某些方面让我想起希伯来语，在其他方面则让我想起天堂。

It reminds me of Hebrew in some ways, and in other ways it reminds me of heaven.

我认为它非常理性，并且具有三字母词根。

It's very rational, I think, and it has these triliteral roots.

因此，你可以从这些词根派生动词，同一个动词也可以转化为名词。

So you can make up verbs out of these roots, and the same verb can be turned into a noun.

然后我只是说，这对我来说并不吸引人。

And then I just said, think that's not appealing to me.

不像英语那样。

Not like English.

但无论如何，我对她说，我是一位占星术作家。

But at any rate, I said to her, I'm a writer on astrology.

你话刚出口，就立刻问：你是作家，但你写什么主题？

One second question out of your mouth was, you're a writer, but what do you write about?

所以我不得不告诉她，我写占星术。

So I had to tell her astrology.

她说：哦，我都不知道阿拉伯人还懂占星术。

And she said, oh, I wasn't aware that the Arabs knew anything about astrology.

而这当然是学术界对占星术的典型偏执。

And that was, of course, the standard academic paranoia about astrology.

事实上，阿拉伯人对占星术的了解更多。

The fact is the Arabs knew more about astrology.

他们可能遗忘的占星知识，比他们所不知道的还要多。

They'd forgotten more about astrology perhaps than maybe they didn't know.

他们对文明的一大贡献是他们的数学、诗歌，以及对科学和数学的知识。

One of their big contributions to civilization was their mathematics, their poetry, and their knowledge of science and mathematics.

对。

Right.

他们在中世纪的几个世纪里，成为了占星传统唯一的传承者吗？

They became the sort of sole possessors of the astrological tradition for several centuries during the Middle Ages?

对。

Right.

如今，占星界的情况与1980年左右之前的学术界几乎处于同样的境地。

Now the astrological community was pretty much in the same bag or same condition as the academics prior to, let's say, around 1980.

1980年，我开始公开谈论我对这些内容的了解，令我惊讶的是，在美国除了我之外，竟然没有人研究这个领域。

In 1980 I was going public with the fact that I knew about this stuff, and I was surprised to find there was nobody studying it besides me in The United States.

于是我开始写信给奥林·桑德里，与亚历克·霍和阿里·吉尔伯特等人通信，并联系了一些欧洲的德国、法国和英国的联络人，渐渐地，我听到了一些关于奥利维亚·巴克莱的故事，她正努力推动这一领域的发展，经历着与我相似的困境——试图让占星界认可这一主题。她在英国也面临同样的问题，但英国最终还是把这件事推动起来了，当然，英国人就像他们处理许多事情一样，悄悄地持续进行着。

So I started looking at writing to Olin Sundry corresponding with Alec Howe and Ari Gilbert and a number of people in Europe, and some German contacts, some French contacts, some English contacts, and little by little I began hearing stories about Olivia Barclay, who was working very hard trying to get and going through some of the similar kinds of experiences I was having vis a vis getting recognition of the subject matter on the part of the astrological community, and she was doing, she was running the same sort of problem in England, but they did get it off the ground in England, and of course they have pursued it ever since the way the English pursue many things, namely on the QT.

美国和英国的一个区别在于，我们美国人嘴巴都很大。

One of the differences between America and England is that we've got big mouths.

我们什么事都爱说，而他们不这样。

We talk about everything, and they don't.

表面上看似乎没人做这件事，并不意味着英国就没有人在暗中进行。

The mere fact that it looks as though nobody's doing something doesn't mean that nothing's happening in England.

这仅仅意味着所有事情都在幕后进行，我想我说出这一点也不算泄露机密。

It just means that it's all behind the scenes, And I don't think that I would be talking out of school to say that.

如果我听到你这么说，我相信他们也不会反对我的看法。

I don't think they would disagree with me if I heard you say that.

所以我说了，我很高兴。

So I said it, and I'm glad.

对。

Right.

就在你试图复兴中世纪占星术的同时，你的一些朋友或至少其他人在英国也在做同样的事，专注于17世纪威廉·利利的传统。

You, right at the same time that you're sort of trying to initiate this revival of medieval astrology, you have friends or at least other people over in England doing the same, focusing their work on William Lilly in the seventeenth century tradition.

到了90年代，我猜你开始取得进展，并成为位于阿哈特的‘远景计划’的创始成员之一，与罗伯特·汉德和罗伯特·施密特一起？

And then by the 90s, I assume you're starting to gain steam and you become one of the founding members of Project Hindsight in Aarhat with Robert Hand and Robert Schmidt?

是的，没错。

Yeah, that's right.

时间表也差不多对得上。

It's about the right timetable, too.

据我回忆，当时事情真的开始顺利起来，我想大概是1992年，我们去了在华盛顿特区水晶城举办的全新占星大会。

Things really fell together, as far as I can remember and as far as I thought of the time, things really fell together around 1992, I think it was, when we went to a new act, the United Astrology Congress in Crystal City, Washington, DC.

水晶城可能是那个街区的名字，也可能是酒店的名字。

And Crystal City was either the name of the neighborhood or it was the name of the hotel.

我对那里的情况记不太清了，但那是个非常不错的住宿地点。

I don't quite remember what the situation was there, but it was a very nice place that we stayed in.

奥利维亚当时在场，我也去了，施密特和他的妻子也在，罗恩·布莱克和罗伯特·汉德也都到场了。

And Olivia was there, and I was there, and Schmidt was there, and his wife, Ron Black was there, Robert Hand was there.

那时候我和施密特都沉浸在自己的幻想里，我们憧憬着能解答所有问题的‘通用数学’——Mathesus Universales。

And Schmidt and I were sort of auto intoxicated at that point on our own dreams about Mathesus Universales, the universal mathematics that would answer all questions.

他在这方面的贡献，是梳理了他在圣

And his contribution to that was the recitation of what he had learned at St.

约翰大学学到的所有知识，以及那段时期之后他自己独自钻研出的所有成果。

John's and whatever he had figured out on his own subsequent to that time.

他当时在圣（的大学上学）

He went to college at St.

约翰大学，我记得是在马里兰州的印第安纳波利斯市。

John's University in Maryland, Indianapolis, I think it was.

所以他提出了三点，内容是关于收集的信息、马蒂亚斯·苏辛于Ursight，还有他和藻类研究小组的关联。

So he had three things to say about the collect and Matthias Soussin of Ursight and his relationship to algae group.

当时我就觉得这整件事非常有意思。

And I found that very intriguing at the time.

所以我们当时有点陶醉其中，构想出了普适数学。

So we were sort of intoxicated and dreamed up at universal mathematics.

但如果他们真有这个想法，我们也没能得到实现它的机会。

But if they would have it, we weren't given the opportunity to do that.

相反，我该怎么说呢？

Instead, I think the how shall I put this?

人工智能的幽灵悄然介入了对话，使我们无法继续下去。

The demon of artificial intelligence insinuated itself into the conversation in such a way that we couldn't continue the dialogue.

当时罗伯特·汉德也在场。

Now Robert Hand was there at the time.

我认为他从未成功让媒体接受他关于马萨诸塞和占星术的这个概念。

I don't think he was ever convincing the press with this concept of Massachusetts and Astrology.

那时他对占星术非常感兴趣。

He was very interested in astrology at that point.

他刚从西班牙回来，那里他遇到了一位正在研究菲利普二世作品的占星师。

Now he had just returned from Spain, where he had met somebody who was studying the works of Philip II, an astrologer.

这位占星师使用了一种只有我和奥利维亚以及奥利维亚的学生，包括玛吉·迈斯特和李·莱曼，这些人都听说过我们的宫位变异理论的东西。

And this astrologer used something that nobody, but me and perhaps Olivia and Olivia's students, including Maggie Meister and Lee Lehman, these people all had heard about our mutants of houses.

正如你所知，这本质上是指在某个宫位中拥有最高尊严的行星。

And as you know, that is essentially the plant that has the most dignity in a given house.

因此，这是判断该宫位将产生什么、如何产生以及所有相关事项的极大优势。

So this is a tremendous asset in judging what that house is going to produce and how it's going to produce it and all the rest of that.

而宫位本身，当然，是某种场域或指标，其中某些概念的含义被突出强调。

And the houses are, of course, indices of or fields, if you like wherein the means of certain concepts are emphasized.

因此，通过研究这些宫位边界主宰星，你可以清晰地勾勒出星盘将提供什么、承诺什么。

So by studying the rulers of those boundaries, you can elicit a very clear picture of what the chart is going to offer, what the chart is promising.

当时，罗伯特在西班牙时，头脑里充满了关于这位西班牙占星师研究的内容。

Now, Robert had his head filled to the brim while in Spain by somebody who was studying this Spanish astrologer's work.

那时他对占星术，尤其是中世纪占星术，非常热衷。

And he was very enthusiastic about astrology at that point, about medieval astrology.

他当时通知了所有人，而我就在房间里，他说了这句话。

He notified everybody at the time, and I was in the room, and he said this thing.

佐勒对中世纪占星学的主导地位不容挑战。

Zoller is dominance of medieval astrology cannot go and challenge.

你一直在挑战其他方面。

You've been challenging at other things.

我觉得这很好。

And I think that's good.

我认为竞争这类事情能推动我们所有人追求更高的卓越。

I think that competition and that sort of stuff pushes us all to further excellence.

对。

Right.

然后，你们三位罗伯特就聚在一起，开始翻译文本，着手翻译吉多·博纳蒂的作品，以及归于赫尔墨斯的拉丁文著作，这项工作就此展开。

And then, so the three of you then get together, the three Roberts, and you start translating texts, you start producing a translation of Guido Bonatti, translations of the Latin works ascribed to Hermetis, and that takes off.

最终你离开了，但到那时，你已经被公认为世界上中世纪占星学的权威，而且我认为直到今天依然如此。

Eventually you leave, but then by this point you are still, and I think even still today, established as the leading authority on medieval astrology in the world.

到了90年代后期，你似乎已经拥有了一批相当稳固的追随者，你当时发行的是一份月度通讯吗？

And then by the time the late 90s roll around, it seems like you've got a pretty strong following, and you're issuing your was it a monthly newsletter?

是的，我是在某个时候听到这个词的。

Yeah, I picked up the word somewhere along the line.

我想我那时在中西部。

I think I was in the Midwest.

那一定是密歇根或者明尼阿波利斯。

It must have been Michigan or Minneapolis is.

我肯定你去过纽约。

I'm sure if you've been to New York.

很抱歉，我不想说有偏见，但这个词可能正是我此刻能想到的。

Terribly I don't want to say biased, but that might be the word I'm stuck with here.

我无法想象哈德逊河以西的任何地方能算作中西部以外的地方。

I just can't imagine anything West Of The Hudson River as being anything other than the Midwest.

当然，但这就是我的看法。

It's, of course, but that's the way I look at it.

潜意识里，这是我从小被灌输的视角。

Subconsciously, way I've been brought up to look at it.

但无论如何，我们当时在中西部某个地方，得到了非常好的反响。

But at any rate, we were out in the Midwest somewhere, and we're getting a very good response.

罗伯特在那里，施密特也在那里，我也在。

Robert was there, Schmidt was there, I was there.

我想我们还在同一个地方。

I think still at the same place.

有一个为Matrix工作的人把施密特留在Matrix的一些文件送还给他，其中包括一份期刊。

And somebody who worked for Matrix was returning some papers to Schmidt that he had left there at Matrix, and it included a periodical.

施密特称它为期刊，但那个人纠正了他，称之为‘sporadical’（不定期出版物）。

And Schmidt referred to it as a periodical, and the guy corrected him and called it a sporadical.

所以我的通讯录是新闻信使，也就是发布消息的人。

So that my my newsletter was a news messenger and somebody who announces something.

我当时想到的是‘拿着斧头的天使’。

And I had in mind angels with axe by that.

虽然最初计划是每两个月一期，但确实有一段时间变成每月一期，后来又进入了一段不定期出版的时期，我想这正是它至今的状况——因为到了90年代，帕金森病开始困扰我，我再也无法保持写作的绝对规律性。

Although it was intended to be every two months, I think initially, it really went through a period when it was one per month and it went through another period where it was sporadical, in fact, and I guess that's really where it's still at, because when the Parkinson's began to trouble me in the 90s, I couldn't any longer maintain an absolute regularity with my writing.

所以这真的是一种不定期的出版物。

So it's really a sporadical.

但正是在那份名为《Nantius》的通讯中，你开始定期发布预测。

But it was in that newsletter, Nantius, that you started issuing predictions, you would regularly issue predictions.

我认为，你在占星界之外最为人熟知的，就是对2001年9月11日袭击事件做出了一些相当具体的预言。

And I think one of the things that you've become the most well known for outside of the astrological community is making some pretty specific statements about what turned out to be the attacks on 09/11/2001.

那么，你能谈谈那些预言以及其后续影响吗？

So what was the, like can you talk a little bit about those predictions and what the aftermath of that was?

是的。

Yeah.

这些预言是在回应人们提问的一系列文章中发布的。

Those predictions were made in a series of responses to people's questions.

第一个预言是在伦敦戴维·布罗德家的一次晚宴上做出的。

The first one was made at a dinner that I was invited to in London at David Broad's house.

你知道，我现在可能记不清那条街的名字了。

You know, maybe I can't remember the name of the street right now.

但还有一次与莉兹·格林共进晚餐的出席经历。

But also an attendee ship at dinner with Liz Green.

所以这次安排是想让莉兹·格林和我同处一室，如果她不是在处理人际关系——尤其是与来自本国的陌生人——方面如此老练且高度成熟的话，这件事对某些人来说或许会有点好笑。

So this was an attempt to put Liz Green and I in the same room, and I suppose it would have been a little bit humorous to somebody who wants if she wasn't such a consummate and highly sophisticated person when it comes to interpersonal relationships, especially with strangers from your own country.

她所实践的占星术和我所实践的占星术，在时空上相隔了数千年。

So the sort of astrology that she practices and the sort of astrology that I practice are really millennia apart at space and time.

我不觉得用数千年来形容她所做和我所做之间的差异有什么不妥。

I don't see any reason why I can't talk about millennia in terms of the difference between what she's doing and what I'm doing.

但她确实是自己领域的专家。

But she's an expert at what she does.

不过，无论如何，那是第一个背景场景。

Well, anyway, that was the first context.

正是在那里，我提到了布什家族。

That was where the remarks were made about the House of Bush.

我说，在下一次选举中，美国将出现一位新总统，这位新总统将来自布什家族，但他处理事务的经验将不如老布什那么丰富。

And I said that there'll be a new president in The United States at the next election and that there will be a new president will be at the House of Bush, but he won't have as much experience in running things as the first Bush did.

我在那里还说了几句别的，之后就结束了。

And I made a couple of other remarks there, and that was the end of that.

实际上，在那之前，我已经向教廷大使表示，美国似乎将面临严重的经济困难，而历史上，我们应对这种情况的最佳方式——至少在美国经济评论员普遍的做法中——就是发动战争，以此摆脱困境。

Now subsequently actually before that, I had made the statement to the nuncis that it looked as though there were going to be major economic difficulties for The United States, and that historically the best way for us to deal with that sort of thing, at least the way the economic pundits in The United States generally tend to do things, is that they wage a war as a way of getting you out of the swamp.

所以我预感战争即将来临。

So I figured there was a war coming.

在伦敦的晚餐结束后，我回到家，重新审视了所有情况，确认了我的担忧，并开始关注米洛舍维奇，他是我在通讯中提到过的人之一。

And then I got back home after the dinner at London and looked at everything again, confirmed my concerns, and started paying attention to Milosevic, who's one of the people who I mentioned in the newsletter.

当时他还是自由身，但没过多久就被关进了监狱。

Now at the time he was a free man, but it wasn't long after that that they jailed him.

我想他现在应该还在狱中，不过说实话，我也不知道他后来怎么样了。

And I guess he's still in jail, and I don't know what happened to him, frankly, at this point.

但他在那封通讯中被提及过，奥萨马·本·拉登也是如此。

But he was mentioned in that one of those newsletters, as was Osama bin Laden.

因此，我关于这一主题的最后两封通讯明确指出了伊斯兰原教旨主义对美国价值观和生活方式的威胁，点名了本·拉登，预测了危险可能发生的月份，以及袭击可能来自的地区。

So the final two of my newsletters that pertain to this subject called out the danger of Islamic fundamentalism to American values and the American way of life, names of some of bin Laden, named the month in which the danger is likely to happen, and the area of the country where the attack was likely to come from.

所以我认为我在这一方面做得还算不错。

So I think I did a passable good job on that aspect of things.

没错。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为其他人不可能做出如此准确的预测。

I don't think anyone else was able to issue statements that were that accurate.

我想你说过，最危险的时期是2001年9月。

I think you said the greatest period of danger is in September 2001.

事件将发生在美东海岸，涉及招致像奥萨马·本·拉登这样的冒险者带来的破坏。

It'll be on the Eastern Seaboard Of The United States, something about inviting the depredations of adventurers such as Osama bin Laden.

你发表了这些言论，我认为很多人不知道的是，你确实曾试图联系当局，或者你曾经告诉我，你尝试过联系FBI来提醒他们。

So made those statements, and I think one of the things that not a lot of people know about is you actually did try to, or you told me once that you tried to contact the authorities or con contact the FBI in order to alert them to this.

对吗？

Correct?

是的。

Yes.

不仅是FBI，还有CIA。

And that's just the FBI that also the CIA.

对。

Right.

但你试图联系他们或至少通知他们的努力，似乎被拒绝了？

But your attempts to contact them or at least to notify them were sort of rejected?

嗯，他们似乎没有采取行动，但我后来了解到，表象可能具有误导性。

Well, they didn't seem to be acted upon, but I've since learned that appearances may be misleading.

如果你打电话给水管工乔，就是几年前政治辩论中提到的那个乔，这个名字当时被反复提及。

If you call up Joe the plumber, the resurrect Joe the plumber from a previous political debate a couple of years ago, that was a name that was being bounced off of everything.

虚构的人物。

Mythical guy.

但事实上，叫乔的人很多，其中一些确实是水管工，所以确实有这么一个‘水管工乔’。

But it turns out that there are lots of guys named Joe and some of them are plumbers, so there is a Joe the plumber.

但我的意思是，你打电话给一个你认为是乔·水管工的人，有人来你家门口，说‘我有个包裹’，你把包裹交给他，他就走了，他可能向你自称是乔·水管工。

But my point is that you call up somebody who you think is Joe the plumber, somebody comes to your door, says, you have a package for me, and you hand him the package and it goes away, he might have identified himself to you as Joe the plumber.

但那个戴面具的人到底是谁？

But who was that masked man?

在这个话题、这个领域里，你有时并不清楚自己在和谁打交道，也不清楚谁在关注你的工作。

Now in this subject, in this field, you sometimes don't know who you're dealing with or know who's subscribing to your work.

我不知道所有曾经订阅我Nuncis内容的人都是谁。

I don't know who all the people who were my subscribers on Nuncis.

很可能其中一两个人为另一个政府工作，或者为我们自己的政府工作。

It could very well be that one of them or two of them works for another government or for our own government.

这种中世纪的占星术，如今在我们社会的某些群体中变得非常有趣。

This medieval astrology has become very interesting to certain elements of our society.

其中一些是宗教群体，一些是政治群体，我记得我还和一位巴基斯坦人有过一次非常有趣的交流，这位巴基斯坦占星师可不是等闲之辈，他对占星术相当精通。

Some of them are religious elements, some of them are political elements, and some of them are I remember I had a very interesting interchange with a Pakistani fellow, Pakistani astrologer who's no slouching, who's kind of astrology.

后来我了解到，他和巴基斯坦方面很可能存在政治联系。

And I learned later that there were probably political connections between him and Pakistan.

所以你并不总是能确定，因此我不能绝对地说从来没有人在这方面拒绝过我。

So you don't always know, and as a result, I can't say categorically that nobody ever turned me down in that respect.

从来没有人表达过任何怀疑。

Nobody ever expressed any doubt.

但另一方面，也从来没有人表现出任何热情，更没有挥舞着旗帜跑来跟我说，我是CAA的。

But on the other hand, nobody ever expressed any enthusiasm and then coming waving flags saying, I'm in the CAA.

对。

Right.

我只是觉得指出这一点会比较好。

Well, just thought it would be good to point that out.

我最近读了一篇《怀疑者》杂志的文章，里面提出了一个问题：如果你提前做出了这些预测，那为什么没有联系任何人呢？

I read a skeptic article sometime recently that was asking the question of if you had made these predictions ahead of time, then why didn't you contact somebody?

我一直觉得这很有趣，因为你确实尝试过联系某人。

So I always thought that was interesting because you had in fact attempted to contact someone.

但抛开这一点不说，我想问你的是，经过过去二三十年从事传统占星术的工作，你对刚入门的传统占星师有什么建议吗？

But moving on from that, one of the things I wanted to ask you is if you have any advice to new astrologers or to astrologers who are just getting into traditional astrology, what would be your greatest piece of advice after your last twenty or thirty years working with traditional astrology?

工作，工作，工作。

Work, work, work.

不要浪费时间，从简入手。

Don't waste any time deep to brevis.

经验是一种奇特的任务，需要去完成它。

Experience is a peculiar task to end them.

所以不要把时间浪费在心理占星学或其他任何类型的占星学上，首先要把时间投入到中世纪占星学中。

So don't waste your time on psychological astrology and on any other kind of astrology, then put your time into medieval astrology, first of all.

从基础开始。

Start at the bottom.

不要假设写这些书的人都是骗子，因为虽然现代作者常常如此，尤其是我在学术圈发现，有些学者参与各种秘密社团，他们只会批评真正有效的占星术，而他们明明知道它有效。

Don't assume that the people who are writing this book are frauds, because while that is true often of the modern writers, and especially as I have found out in academic circles where you have academics involved with secret societies of various sorts, and they will criticize the only astrology that works, and they know that it works.

他们只是不喜欢看到关于中世纪占星学的内容，所以宁愿去写奇龙、黑月之类的旁支话题。

They just don't like to see stuff about medieval astrology, so they'd rather write about Chiron and black moons and other such parentheses.

第三点是，要期待准确的命盘解读和预测所带来的具体显现。

And the third thing is to expect concrete manifestations of accurate delineation and prediction.

换句话说，我们所处理的东西并不是虚无缥缈的。

In other words, the stuff that we're dealing with is not airy fairy.

它不是符号。

It's not symbols.

我不知道还有什么词可以替代‘符号’，但肯定不是象征性的。

I don't know what word I can use in lieu of symbols, but it's certainly not symbolic.

我们在谈论某种有意义的东西。

We're talking about something which matters somehow.

当我们说某事有意义时，意思是它很重要。

When we say that something matters, we mean that it's important.

但我们也常常意味着它在某种物质层面上起作用。

But we also mean often that it is operating in some kind of matter.

我认为这在占星学中也是如此。

And I think that that's the case in Astrology.

我们处理的是不同层次上的物质变化。

We're dealing with changes in matter and matter on different levels.

有些物质比其他物质更精微。

Some matter is more refined than other matters.

有些物质比其他物质更粗劣。

Some matter is grosser than other matters.

因此，'物质'这个词本身存在某种模糊性或歧义。

So there's this given ambiguity or equivocation in the word matter itself.

这个词至少具有两种不同的含义。

The word itself has at least two different meanings to it.

到目前为止，我得出结论：我以后可能会改变看法，但我认为我不必这么做。

And I have come to conclude at this point I may change my opinion later, but I don't think I'm going to have to.

我们必须弄清楚占星学是什么。

We have to know what astrology is.

这仍然属于理论范畴。

This is still in the theory of heading.

占星学是目前唯一的科学，或许除了弦理论之外。

And what astrology is the only science at the present time, except for perhaps string theory.

这门科学，我称之为占星术，由新柏拉图主义者和赫尔墨斯哲学家提出。

This science, I call astrology, by the Neo Platonists and the Hermetic philosophers.

我并不关心现代哲学家、物理学家以及其他所有人怎么说。

And I don't really care what the modern philosophers and physicists and all the rest of them are saying.

占星术是一门科学，它尤其研究上帝的意志如何转化为物质并塑造这个世界。

Astrology is a science, and it's a science in particular of how God's will becomes material and shapes this world.

这是一门非常复杂的科学，但却是极其有趣的科学。

And it's a very complex science, but it's extremely interesting science.

我个人认为，当斯蒂芬·霍金接受这位耶稣会士的电视采访时，这位耶稣会士恰当地对他说：我很遗憾看到你实际上把上帝从你的体系中剔除了。

And I personally think that when Stephen Hawking goes to a television interview with this Jesuit guy, the Jesuit guy said to him, quite appropriately, said to him, I'm sorry to see you actually taking God out of your system.

你以前的书里并没有这么做。

You didn't do that in your previous book.

你当时对是否存在上帝仍留有余地。

You left the door open as to whether or not there was a god.

现在我认为这位耶稣会士说得完全正确，无论我们如何理解‘上帝’这个词，我们都应该为可能存在这样的事物保留一扇门。

Now I think that the Jesuit is absolutely ready there, and that we all should, however we understand this term god, leave the door open to the possibility that there is such a thing.

因为我有种感觉，这在某个时候会很重要。

Because I have a feeling that it's going to matter at some time.

这引发了一个我想问你的问题：目前你对占星术的哲学观点是什么？你是否更认同某个特定的哲学流派或宗教传统？

That raises a question I wanted to ask you in an issue, is what is your philosophy of astrology at this point, and is there a specific philosophical school or religious tradition that you identify with more or feel more sympathetic towards?

我比较折中。

I'm rather eclectic.

我来自这个地区的一个朋友指责我东拉西扯，试图把这些东西拼凑成一幅马赛克，他怀疑这些元素是否真的能融合在一起。

One of my friends from this area accuses me of drawing from this and from that and trying to piece it all together in some sort of mosaic, and he has doubts about whether these things actually fit together.

我想我也有疑虑，不确定它们是否能完美融合，但我的折中主义是真实的——我确实是个折中主义者，这正是像我这样的人在观察周围世界时，试图追寻上帝的足迹、接近更高现实的一种努力。

I guess I have doubts about whether they fit properly together, but my eclecticism, which is real, is right and branding me eclectic, I am eclectic, is nevertheless an effort of a creature such as myself looking at the world around me and trying to climb up to the vestigial dating, the footsteps of God, to the higher reality.

那么，什么是更高的现实？

Now what's a higher reality?

我还是不要深入讨论了。

I better not go there.

那会花太多时间。

That's going to take too much time.

让我这么说吧，针对你的问题——我倾向于哪种哲学？

Let me say instead that, in answer to your question, which brand of philosophy do I favor?

我非常着迷于卡巴拉、新柏拉图主义和赫尔墨斯主义。

I'm very much taken with Kabbalah, very much taking with neoplatency, very much taking with Hermeticism.

我的哲学在这些方向中是否纯粹？

Is my philosophy pure in any one of these directions?

可能不是，因为我不是一个教派型的人。

Probably not, because I'm not a sectarian kind of guy.

然而，我确实在1989年皈依了路德宗，部分原因是这是父亲的信仰，而且我知道著名的路德宗神学家约翰·阿恩特，以及更早的卡马拉里乌斯和梅兰希通，都曾积极参与占星术、炼金术，甚至某些形式的魔法——尤其是自然魔法，这很有趣，因为很明显，自然魔法是自然科学的前身。

And yet I did convert to Lutheranism in 1989, partially because it was my father's religion and because I knew that Johann Arndt, the famous Lutheran theologian, and before him Camararius and at Melanchthon, were all actively involved in astrology and alchemy and possibly even magic, certain aspects of magic, natural magic anyway, which is interesting to look at because it's very clear that natural magic is the parent of a natural science.

但无论如何，你刚才提出了两三个问题。

But at any rate, you raised two or three questions there.

其中一个问题是，我最倾向于这几种哲学中的哪一种？

One was which one of these philosophies do I incline most to?

事实上，目前我正试图逐渐摆脱占星术，重新转向炼金术，因为多年前我忽略的一些内容，现在必须重新审视。

Well, I'm actually, at this point, I'm trying to wean myself out of astrology and go back in the direction of alchemy because there's stuff that I passed up there years ago that I've got to reconsider.

而且我非常着迷于这已经不再是哲学了。

And I'm very much taken by the this isn't philosophy any longer.

它属于实践的范畴，真正让我走上这条道路的是《比诺克之书》。

It does go under the category of practice, and it was the book of Beanock that really sent me in this direction.

你读过《比诺克之书》吗？

Do you know the book of Beanock?

是的。

Yeah.

《以诺书》是一本精彩的作品，描述了圣经中多处简要提及的内容。

Enoch is a wonderful book describing something that is mentioned briefly in the Bible in a number of places.

例如，帕特摩斯的约翰，如果我没记错的话，还有保罗，以及在他们之前的以利亚。

For instance, John on Patmos and, if I'm not mistaken, Paul and prior to both of them, Elijah.

而在他们所有人之前，以诺本人就实践过这种出体的神秘体验——一种 ecstatic 的出体经历，在其中他们亲眼目睹并亲身经历了灵性现实。

And before all of them, before Elijah, Enoch himself all practiced this out of body exotic, this ecstatic out of body experience, where they saw and had firsthand experiences of spiritual reality.

因此，这如今引起了我的兴趣，我最近一直在研究芬兰异教、爱沙尼亚异教以及凯尔特传统中的古日耳曼异教，对这些都略有涉猎。

So that's something that intrigued me now, and I've been recently looking at Finnish paganism and Estonian paganism and the old Germanic paganism in the Celtic tradition, dabbling in all those.

这最初只是一种消遣，但这个消遣一直吸引着我的注意力，因此我可能会在这三个研究或实践领域做些事情，尤其是现在我清楚地意识到，我们一直争论并偶尔实践的占星术是一种深受希腊影响的数学占星术。

It started out as a sort of diversion, but the diversion is holding my attention, so I may end up doing something with these three areas of study or practice, all the more so because it's plain to me now that the astrology that we're always arguing about and practicing occasionally It's a mathematical astrology heavily influenced by the Greeks.

这并不是对希腊人的批评。

So that's not a criticism of the Greeks.

那远非如此。

That's by far.

但它确实表明，对希腊人和我们而言，这本质上是一种左脑活动。

But it does say that it is essentially a left brained activity for them and for us.

占星术中一定存在相应的右脑活动。

There must be a corresponding right brained activity in astrology.

我认为这种活动在魔法领域中有所体现，但具体如何，我目前还不准备公开说明。

And I think that that is met with in the magical field, but exactly how I'm not ready to say publicly.

说到这个，我想问你关于你哲学中的一个观点：你目前对命运与自由意志的问题是否有明确的立场？

Speaking of that, one of the things about your philosophy I wanted to ask you is if you have a strong position on the issue of fate and free will at this point.

我知道你在80年代末为NCGR写过一篇关于斯多葛主义的文章，但你也深度参与了炼金术和魔法传统。

I know in the late 80s you wrote an article on stoicism for the NCGR, but then you're also very involved in alchemy and in the magical traditions as well.

那么，你对决定论这个问题持什么观点？

So where do you come down on that issue of determinism?

嗯，我认为我仍然要像斯多葛学派那样说，我们有本性，而这种本性实际上不会改变。

Well, I think I still gotta say along with stoics that we have a nature, and that nature doesn't really change.

但话虽如此，让我更强烈地阐述一下这个观点。

But having said that, let me make the case a little bit more strongly.

在信仰与自由意志的问题上，我的观点没有改变，即我依然坚持：发生在我们身上的事，就是注定要发生的。

I haven't changed my opinion on the question of faith versus free will in the sense that I haven't gotten off of the fact that what is going to happen to us happens to us.

我们能做的改变微乎其微。

Little that we can do changes.

然而，我确实见证过干预的存在。

However, I have seen intervention.

当我上世纪80年代在挣扎于自由意志与决定论的观念时，我曾倾向于决定论一方。

I thought I saw it back in the '80s when I was struggling with the free versus free will concept, it was coming down on the side of determinism.

但现在，我看到了太多干预的例子，这些在某种程度上，如今已成为占星学中衡量一切的参照。

But now I have seen so many examples of intervention which in a sense, is just something to measure it against now in astrology.

在占星术中，我可以说：这就是将要发生的事。

In astrology, I can say, This is what's going to happen.

而魔法师，或者你愿意称其为魔法师的女性版本，也许就是魔法师。

And the magician or whatever you want to call the feminine version of the magician, maybe a magician.

我不确定。

I don't know.

女巫，也许吧。

Witch, maybe.

死灵法师，这个词不错。

A necromancer that's a nice word.

我喜欢这个词。

I like that word.

这个人走上舞台，开始为人们改变一些事情。

That person walks onto the scene and begins to change things for people.

因此，我不得不暂时得出结论：你可能会对这一点感到非常不安，因为这并非基于你所喜欢的理性；即使你不认同这些结论，你也希望结论是清晰、无可辩驳、显而易见且毫无歧义的。

So I can't help but conclude at the moment, and you can feel very uncomfortable with this because this is not with reason you like this, even when you don't agree with the conclusions, you like the conclusions to be clear, unassailable, plain as the nose on your face, and unambiguous.

但在生活中，我们似乎得不到这种明确性。

But we don't get that in life, it seems.

因此，我所看到并能够证实的是，如果你知道该做什么、怎么做，并且坚持足够长的时间，改变是能够实现的。

And as a result, what I have seen and what I can attest to is that change can be brought about if you know what to do and how to do it, and do it long enough.

如果你仔细想想，这听起来可能有点敷衍，因为‘坚持足够长的时间’可能意味着要花上好几年。

That might sound like a bit of a cop out if you think about it, because it might sound as though and do it long enough might be, like, in years.

但我并不是在谈论那些需要好几年才能完成的事情。

But I'm not really talking about years, things that take years to do.

可能只需要几周时间。

It might take a couple of weeks.

最多可能只需要一周。

At the outside, it might take one week.

有时候，根本不需要多少时间。

Sometimes they don't take much time at all.

改变确实会发生。

And change does happen.

对我来说，如果没有这位具有特殊能力的人的介入，这种改变是不可能发生的。

And it's clear to me that this change would not have happened if it weren't for the intervention of this person with the special abilities.

我回答到点子上了吗？

Am I answering your question?

是的，我觉得这是个不错的回答，或者至少已经足够了。

Yeah, I think that's a good answer, or I think that'll be sufficient.

我最后想问你的一件事是：你有没有什么建议或见解，关于一些对你非常有用、但目前大多数人还不知道的技术或理论？

One of the last things I wanted to ask you is, do you have any advice or insights into any techniques or technical doctrines that you feel have been really useful to you, but that you feel that not a lot of people know about at this point?

是的。

Yeah.

这个问题挺有意思，因为从某种意义上说，它直接触及了教学的核心问题——我们教什么，以及教学发生的背景。

You know, this is a funny question because this is, you know, in one sense, getting right to the core of the issue about teaching and what we teach people, the context is in which the teaching takes place.

我可以肯定地说，支配星与它所支配的行星或星座之间存在双重关系。

Well, one of the things I can say safely is that the dispositor has a twofold relationship to the planet or sign disposed by it.

这在我进行命盘解读时帮了我很多。

This has helped me a lot in my delineation.

我想我最初是在更多地区遇到这条规则的，当时我正要复述它，发现它深藏在‘没问题’的背后。

I think that I ran across this rule that I was about to recite, first in more regions, found that deep behind the no problem.

之后我多年来一直使用这条规则，我根本无法放弃它，否则就会失去大量对所处理问题的准确性和洞察力。

And then I have worked with that for years and years and years, and I simply cannot give it up without losing a lot of accuracy and insight into what I'm dealing with.

所以，星座，比如白羊座。

So the sign, the sigony sign, Aries, for instance.

白羊座由火星守护。

Aries is ruled by Mars.

根据这条规则，我可以看出某个宫位所代表的好或坏，其实源自该宫位的守护星；我正在想一个具体的案例，但我得把那个案例从脑子里清除，因为这里我不需要超过一个具体例子。

I can see by virtue of the rule the good or bad signified by a house emanates from the ruler of the house, I can see that this actually I'm thinking about a specific case, I've got to get that out of my mind because I don't need more than one specific case here.

一点医学方面的知识会帮助你在这里更好地理解。

A little bit of medical discipline is going to help you do this here.

无论是好是坏，我们都可以从宫位的守护星来判断。

Good or bad, we can find the house, everything from the ruler of the house.

首先，火星所在的宫位是吉宫还是凶宫？

First of all, is the house that Mars is in a good house or a bad house?

第一个问题。

First question.

我们假设它位于第十一宫。

Let's assume it's in the eleventh house.

我们假设它主宰第二宫，即白羊座位于第二宫宫头。

Let's assume that it rules the second house, that Aries is on the second house cut.

现在我想自动了解这种配置下会有什么预期，由于白羊座位于第二宫宫头，这是一个有争议的混合宫位，不算太坏，但也绝非很好。

Now I want automatically to know what to expect with that configuration, and since signed, Mars Aries is on the second house cut, which is a questionable mixed house, not really bad, certainly not really good.

火星的凶性会让你觉得，拥有这种配置的人为了赚钱几乎愿意做任何事。

The malefic nature of Mars does tend to make you think that the person who's got this configuration is willing to do just about anything to make a buck.

他们不会让任何阻碍挡在他们面前。

They're not gonna let any opposition of any sort get in their way.

与此同时，在这种情况下，你拥有的是主宰第二宫的火星，它是财富的来源。

At the same time, so what you've got in that case is you've got Mars, the planet ruling the second house, is the source of the money.

所赚的钱来自火星，而火星会揭示钱是如何赚到的、赚了多少，以及其他类似的信息。

The money made is coming from that Mars, and Mars is going to show it how the money is made, how much money is made, all the rest of that sort of stuff.

所以，宫位的主宰星就是该宫位的来源。

So it's the source of the the ruler of the house is the source of the house.

同时，宫位的主宰星也是该宫位的出口，因为如果这个主宰星位于第五宫，你的孩子很可能就会得到你的钱，因为能量就像在星座和其主宰星之间形成了一条电路。

At the same time, the ruler of the house is also the outlet for the house, because if that laws were in the fifth house, it could very well be that your children get your money because the energy is like an electrical circuit between the sign and the ruler of the sign.

这就是主宰星作用的第二种方式。

So that's the second way the rulership works.

宫位所代表的好坏，往往可以通过其主宰星的性质来解释，这通常能说明很多问题。

And the good or bad signified by a house emanates from the ruler of the house will often explain a great deal.

刚才我有一位好朋友过来。

Now I just had a good friend over here.

她第九宫有一些星体，而且水星也落在第九宫。

She had areas on the ninth house, and she had mercury in the ninth in areas.

实际上是在第八宫。

It's actually in the eighth.

但它确实在第九宫，就像象限宫位那样。

And it's actually in the ninth house, like quadrant houses.

第九宫和象限宫位。

Ninth house and quadrant houses.

金牛座是第九宫，这适用于所有星座宫位。

Taurus would be the ninth house, and that goes by all sign houses.

现在，如果我们从所有星座宫位的角度来看，金星位于第七宫，且在第七宫得势，预示着一段美好的伴侣关系。

Now if we look at this from the point of view of all sign houses, that Venus in the seventh house, which is exalted in the seventh house, promises a lovely partnership.

她并没有经历过非常美好的伴侣关系，因为她的上升星座是白羊座，其守护星水星位于第九宫（按象限宫位计算），并与第七宫的守护星木星形成刑相位。

She hasn't had very lovely partnerships because Mercury, ruler of her ascendant in Aries, in the ninth house by quadrant houses, is square to Jupiter, ruler of the seventh house.

第一宫的守护星和第七宫的守护星之间存在敌对关系，而刑相位加剧了这种敌意。

Well, the ruler of the first and ruler of the seventh is inimical relationship to each other by the square makes the hostility there.

但如果你想知道，她确实经历了许多关系中的敌意，尽管金星——我认为最终会带来回报并极大帮助她——但你必须持续支持她，才能等到那一天的到来。

But if you want to get into and she has had plenty of hostility in the relationship, notwithstanding that Venus, which I think is going to eventually pay off and help her a great deal, but you've to keep her buoyed up in order for that blessed day to come by.

你明白我的意思了吗？

You get my where I'm going with that?

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得这很有道理。

I think that makes a lot of sense.

这绝对是核心规则，我开玩笑的。

That's definitely a a core rule, and I'm I'm kidding.

你想应用这个。

You wanna apply that.

如果我想更深入一点，我可以谈谈水星。

If I wanna go further, I can say about that mercury.

水星在白羊座让人成为善于辩论的人，尤其擅长法律问题的辩论。

That Mercury in Aries makes a debater, somebody who is very good at debating legal issues in particular.

在过去，人们会说教会法和第二法。

And in the old days, in the middle of the ladies, they would say canon law as well as second law.

她攻击性强，但在关系上存在问题。

She's sharp with attack, but she's got problems with her relationship.

但水星在白羊座由火星主宰，而火星正是引发这场辩论的原因。

But that Mercury in Aries is disposed by Mars, and Mars is causing that debate.

所以，如果你能这样做，并且将宫位与行星在星座中的位置联系起来，你就掌握了非常值得赞赏的细节。

So if you can do that and you can link in the house meeting to the plant's positions in the sign, you've got detail, which is very admirable.

好的。

Okay.

好吧，我想我们就这样结束吧。

Well, I guess we'll go ahead and wrap this up.

你目前在做什么？人们在哪里可以了解更多关于你的工作？

What are you working on now, and where can people find out more about your work?

他们现在可以访问 www.virginastrology.com，希望这个网站能长期保持下去。

They can go to www.virginastrology.com at the moment, and hopefully for a long time hence.

我目前在做的，就是我之前提到过的，关于这种非数学占星学的内容。

And what I'm working on at the moment is just that I alluded to before, talking about this non mathematical astrology.

我对占星学的精神层面，甚至宗教层面都非常感兴趣。

I'm very interested in the spiritual aspect of astrology and perhaps even in the religious aspect of astrology.

我就说到这里。

I'll leave it at that.

好的。

Okay.

太好了。

Well, great.

各位，请访问他的网站 virginastrology.com。

Well, everyone, please check out his website at virginastrology.com.

罗伯特，感谢你参加我们的节目。

And Robert, thanks for coming on the show.

谢谢你邀请我，克里斯。

Thank you for having me, Chris.

和你交谈总是很愉快，我希望大家都喜欢刚才所分享的内容，但更重要的是，希望大家喜欢我所谈论的主题。

It's always a pleasure talking to you, and I hope that everybody enjoys what was edified, but most importantly, that they enjoy what I was talking about.

好了，今晚的节目就到这里。

Well, that's it for tonight's show.

感谢收听《传统占星电台》，我们下次再见。

Thanks for listening to Traditional Astrology Radio, and I will see you next time.

感谢通过我们的Patreon页面支持本集《占星播客》制作的赞助者们。

Thanks to the patrons who helped to support the production of this episode of The Astrology Podcast through our page on patreon.com.

特别感谢赞助者克里斯汀·斯通、内特·克拉多克和玛丽恩·阿尔特曼，以及Astro Gold占星应用（astrogold.io）、波特兰占星学院（portlandastrology.org）和Honeycomb Collective个人占星年历（honeycomb.co）。

In particular, shout out to patrons Christine Stone, Nate Craddock, and Marin Altman, as well as the Astro Gold Astrology App available at astrogold.io, the Portland School of Astrology at portlandastrology.org, and the Honeycomb Collective Personal Astrological Almanacs available at honeycomb.co.

本集播客的制作还得到了国际占星研究协会的支持，该协会将于2020年9月在科罗拉多州丹佛市举办一场大型占星会议。

The production of this episode of the podcast is also supported by the International Society for Astrological Research, which is hosting a major astrology conference in Denver, Colorado, September 2020.

更多相关信息请访问isar2020.org。

More information about that at isar2020.org.

最后，还有Solar Fire占星软件，可在alabe.com获取，使用促销代码AP15可享受15%的折扣。

And finally, also Solar Fire Astrology software, which is available at alabe.com, and you can use the promo code AP15 for a 15% discount on that software.

如需了解如何成为《占星播客》的赞助者，支持未来剧集的制作，并获得如提前观看新剧集或其他独家内容等会员权益，请访问patreon.com/astrologypodcast。

For more information about how to become a patron of The Astrology Podcast and help support the production of future episodes while getting access to subscriber benefits like early access to new episodes or other bonus content, go to patreon.com/astrologypodcast.