土星在占星学中的含义与象征

你最喜欢的东西都毫无趣味，食物很无聊，任何能带来活力的体验都不存在。

None of your favorite things are very interesting, food is boring, whatever access to like, Oh, yay, savory life thing is not present.

这是一种土星式的体验。

That's a Saturnian experience.

是的。

Yeah.

而且这也是一种对比。

And also a contrast.

在星座归属体系中，存在着一点对比：将两个光体——太阳和月亮——作为两种光明的象征，而土星则位于与之相对的星座，象征着黑暗。在北半球夏季最盛时，月亮和太阳分别掌管的星座，与土星掌管的冬至后严冬时节的星座——十二月和一月的摩羯座和水瓶座——形成鲜明对照。

There's a little bit of contrast that comes through in the domicile scheme of contrasting the two luminaries as the two lights with Saturn in the sign opposite to that as a planet that's signifying darkness and the contrast between the Moon and the Sun being assigned to the two signs at the height of the summer in the Northern Hemisphere versus Saturn being assigned to the two signs that are in the dead of winter just after the winter solstice, are Capricorn and Aquarius in December and January.

我们至今的语言中仍保留着这种隐喻：当你说一个人拥有光明的未来时，意思是充满希望的未来；而当一个人陷入抑郁时，我们可能会说，他觉得眼前的一切都一片黑暗，前景黯淡。

And we still have some of that in our language when you talk about a person has a bright future ahead of them, we mean like an optimistic future versus sometimes when a person's in a depressed place, we might say that they're feeling like things look really dark right now in terms of just the outlook or in terms of things looking bleak in some sense.

嗯。

Mhmm.

甚至有人说一个人正在走上一条黑暗的道路。

Or even someone going down a dark path.

我们可以看到，有人正朝着可能对自己或他人造成破坏的方向前进，我们会使用光明与黑暗这样的语言，这对作为灵长类动物、极度依赖视觉的人类来说非常直观。

We can see that someone is moving in a direction that might be self destructive or destructive to others, and we'll use that language of lightness and darkness, which speaks really clearly to humans as primates are extremely reliant upon sight.

我记得当时学习这一点时，在大学选修过灵长类进化的课程。

I remember learning this and I took some classes in primate evolution in college.

其中最让我印象深刻的是这样一个观点：在灵长类动物中，人类用更好的视觉能力替代了部分嗅觉功能。

And one of the most fascinating things that I've held onto is this idea that in terms of primates, humans swat some of their sense of smell for improved sense of sight.

因此，信息素在人类的社会互动中变得不那么重要，而视觉则极为关键。

So pheromones matter less to humans in terms of different kinds of social interaction, but visuals matter a lot.

我们是昼行性生物，对吧？

And we're diurnal creatures, right?

夜猫子确实存在，但夜猫子仍然依赖蜡烛、电力或其他形式的光。

Night owls are a thing, but night owls are dependent on forms of light like candles or electricity or whatever.

可见即安全。

Visible is safe.

能够通过视觉感知事物，就意味着能够理解它。

To be able to perceive it through the visual faculty is to be able to understand it.

我们甚至在很多不同场合都使用视觉相关的语言，比如：哦，是的，我明白了。

And we even use the language of sight in so many different areas of just like, Oh, yeah, I see.

有人向你解释某件事，当你理解了，你会说：哦，我现在明白了。

Somebody's explaining something to you, and when you get it, you're like, Oh, I see it now.

对。

Right.

对吧？

Right?

尽管你并没有真的看到，而是在听，但信息在你的头脑中被整合起来了。

Even though you're not seeing it, you're hearing it, and it's being put together in your noggin.

所以，一个光明的未来就像：我能看见那里有什么，它看起来安全且可通行。

And so, a bright future is like, I can see what's there, and it seems safe and passable.

这条路我大部分都理解，知道我要去哪、踩的是什么，而黑暗中，我必须依赖其他感官，但这些感官在人类身上并不那么灵敏或强大。

This is a road that I understand for the most part where I'm going and what I'm walking on, whereas darkness, I have to rely on other senses that are less attuned or less strong in the species.

当然，也有故事讲述那些失明或从未见过光明的人也能很好地适应世界，但对于习惯了视觉的人来说，失去视力可能非常可怕。

There are of course stories of people who lose their sight or who are never sighted who navigate the world just fine, but for someone who is used to sight, the loss of sight can be really terrifying.

是的，这个观点非常有趣，尤其是当我们对比其他动物时，它们的某些感官比人类更敏锐，比如狗的嗅觉就比人类强得多。

Yeah, that's a really interesting point especially in comparison to think about other animals that have other senses that are more strong like dogs can have a sense of smell that's much more heightened compared to humans.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对，没错。

Yeah, exactly.

根据我们对狗视觉的了解，它们的视觉光谱和我们并不相同。

And from what we understand of dog sight, they don't have the same visual spectrum that we do.

好的。

All right.

明白了。

Okay.

很有趣。

Interesting.

好的。

All right.

所以，是的，我们正在谈到一些与土星相关的内容，比如明暗对比之类的事情。

So yeah, we're getting to some of the stuff with Saturn that has to do with things like that and things like contrasts of light and dark.

他提到了‘严肃’这个词，这是一个有趣且奇特的土星象征，至今仍然非常相关，而且经常出现，即节制的概念。

He does mention austere which is kind of an interesting and funny Saturn signification that is still very relevant and that does come up a lot, the idea of austerity.

至少如果你要将土星的核心象征与其他行星对比，我认为土星是最具节制性的。

At least if you're going to contrast core Saturn significations versus other planets, I think Saturn would be the most austere of them.

是的，严肃、内敛、寡言，我觉得这些词也很贴切。

Yeah, austere, reserved, reticent, I feel like, would also be appropriate.

还有一种保存的感觉，比如保存能量、保存金钱、保存注意力。

And there's this sense of preservation, like preservation of energy, preservation of money, preservation of attention.

然后我们想到保存在衰老方面的含义，比如老得有尊严，保持良好状态，也意味着不无谓地消耗。

And then we think about preservation in terms of aging, like aging well, to be well preserved, also means not expending unnecessarily.

对。

Right.

在能量或其他类型的消耗上保持高度策略性。

Being very strategic in one's energy or other types of expenditures.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我甚至在想，不知为什么，其实我知道原因。

I mean, I'm even thinking about for some reason actually, I know why.

我坐的这把椅子是1920年代对奇彭代尔椅的复制品。

So this chair that I'm sitting on, this is a 1920s reproduction of the Chippendale chair.

我非常喜欢古董。

I love antiques.

好的。

Okay.

是的，古董确实是土星的很好象征。

Yeah, antiques, that's a good Saturn

认证。

certification.

是的，完全正确。

Yeah, totally.

但只是想想这种椅子的坚固性，它的材料本身就具有完整性，不会随着时间推移而变弱或溶解。

But just thinking about the sturdiness of a chair like this, there's integrity in the materials that mean that it's not weakening, it's not dissolving over time.

它被完好地保存下来，其内在特质的释放非常克制；而像藤编户外家具这类东西，如果没上漆或没做密封处理的话。

It's preserved, it is austere in terms of its releasing of the sort of innate qualities that it has, whereas something that's made out of, I don't know, wicker lawn furniture if it's not sealed or whatever, if it's not painted.

它会在你的院子里直接腐烂。

It literally rots in your yard.

它通过腐烂过程把自身成分释放到环境中，而这种椅子在释放自身成分方面却极为克制，这正是它能长久保存的原因。

It's releasing its constituents into the world through the rotting process, whereas a chair like this is very austere in terms of releasing its constituents and that's what allows it to be preserved over time.

这太棒了。

That's really great.

这让我想到两点。

That brings up two things.

其中之一是，土星具有双重含义：它既可以代表那些随时间推移反而更好、因古老而更受珍视的东西，有时也代表那些因年久而衰败、破旧不堪的事物。

One of them is that it's interesting that Saturn has that dual nature is that it can signify either one is either the thing that gets better with age and in some instances valued more because of its age and antiquity, but also it can signify sometimes those things that are falling apart due to age and they're old and sort of decrepit or what have you.

是的，再说说后果。

Yeah, again, the consequences.

对某些物品而言，年龄的后果是不再有用，只能堆到堆肥堆里；而对另一些东西来说，年龄的后果却是：哇，这太棒了。

The consequences of age for some objects, the consequences of age is no longer useful, needs to just go on the compost heap, Whereas for other things, the consequence of age is like, Wow, this is amazing.

这引出了另一点，我认为随着时间的推移，你才能真正理解某物的特质。

And it brings up another thing which is I think over time, that's how you understand actually the qualities of something.

并不是说持续时间长的东西就一定比别的东西在品质上更好或更优越，我们需要一些东西腐烂。

And not to say that something that lasts a long time is qualitatively better or superior than something else, like we need stuff to rot.

如果没有堆肥或无机肥料，我们就没东西可吃。

It's like if it weren't for compost or inorganic fertilizerswhateverwe wouldn't have food to eat.

我们的消化过程本质上是一种受控的腐烂过程，使我们的身体能够从物质中获取营养。

And our digestion process is essentially a controlled rot process that allows our bodies to derive nutrients from stuff.

我们需要东西分解。

We need stuff to break down.

但这种随着时间推移对事物特质的理解，是非常土星式的。

But that understanding of something's qualities over time, that's very Saturnian.

是的，我一直在思考这个在过去几个月里反复出现在我脑海中的问题，那就是吉星与凶星之间的对比，这是一个非常古老的核心概念，但我想到亚里士多德关于生成与毁灭、存在与消亡的观点。

Yeah, I'm thinking about this thing that keeps coming up with me in this series over the past several months and the contrast between the benefics and malefics, which was a very ancient core concept, but I think of Aristotle's concept of generation versus corruption or coming into being versus passing away.

看起来，吉星非常倾向于生成或存在——那些正在被构建和增长的事物；而凶星则象征或代表那些正在腐化或某种意义上消亡的事物。

And it seems like the benefics are very much on the side of the generation or the coming into being, the things that are being built up and increasing versus the malefics are signifying or representing those things that are either corrupting or passing away in some sense.

是的，完全正确，100%正确。

Yeah, a 100%, 100%.

这也引出了一个观点：没有死亡就没有生命，没有生命也就没有死亡。

And that also just brings up, we can't have life without death, and we can't have death without life.

这两者是不可分割地融合在一起的。

These things are irrevocably fused together.

我最近刚刚重读了一本书，我以为自己以前没读过，结果发现其实读过——我重读了厄休拉·K·勒古恩的《最远的海岸》，这是地海系列中的一部。

I actually just rereadI thought I hadn't read it before, turns out I hadbut I just reread Ursula K.

这本书提到了一个反派角色，他在地海系列的至少另一部小说中也出现过，他的邪恶源于试图逃避死亡，通过摆脱死亡来追求某种形式的永生。

Le Guin's The Farthest Shore, which is part of the Earthsea cycle.

而这种试图逃避死亡、追求永恒生命的反派行为，正是小说的核心主题之一。

And it brings up this villain who shows up in at least one other of the Earthsea novels whose villainy is because of this attempt to elude death, to achieve some form of eternal life by getting away from death.

剧透警告，抱歉，这与我们的讨论相关。

Spoiler alert, sorry, that is relevant for the conversation.

这个反派追求永生的后果，是一种没有生命真正滋味的存在，同时还在 literally 毁灭着世界。

The consequence of this villain's pursuit of eternal life is a form of existence that doesn't have any of the savor of life and is literally just destroying the world at the same time.

逃避死亡没有任何好处，但死亡在人们真正体验到充实而有意义的生命方面，扮演着不可或缺的角色。

There's no benefit to the evasion of death, but death having this very necessary role to play in terms of people actually experiencing aliveness in a substantive and meaningful fashion.

是的，这很有道理。

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

从自然循环的角度来看，比如春天和夏天的树木，它们长出叶子，生长得生机勃勃。

And just in terms of the natural cycle, even with let's say trees in the spring and the summer, they sprout leaves and it grows and becomes kind of vibrant.

但到了秋天，叶子开始凋落，逐渐腐烂并回归大地。

Then eventually in the fall, the leaves start to fall off and then start to decay and go back into the ground.

然后循环再次开始。

And then eventually the cycle starts over again.

对。

Yeah.

那些落叶的腐烂过程，当它们被昆虫、细菌和真菌分解时，落叶中的养分会被树木的根系重新吸收，从而长出新叶。

And the decay of those leaves that have fallen, whenever those things are taken apart by bugs and bacteria and fungi, and the nutrients in those leaves that have fallen are reuptaken by the roots of those trees to become new leaves.

这真是太神奇了。

It's amazing.

所以我认为这一点非常重要，因为这个概念出现过好几次，几个月前我在NORWAC的一次讲座中也尝试探讨过它。这是一个隐藏在希腊化时期占星学中非常微妙的概念，他们有时会谈到土星的位置以及凶星在个人星盘中配置良好时，意味着盘主会以牺牲他人为代价获得利益。

So I think that's really important because that's a concept that comes up a few times and I tried exploring it in a lecture I gave a few months ago at NORWAC, but it's a really subtle concept that's hidden in Hellenistic astrology where they sometimes talk about the Saturn placement and malefics in general when they're well placed in the person's chart indicating benefits to the native at the expense of others.

我认为这某种程度上揭示了那个核心组成部分，因为如果你仔细想想，就像树木落叶一样——为了讨论方便，我们假设树木是有知觉的生命体。

And I think that's kind of underlying that core component because if you think about it, it's like the tree's losing its leaves, just let's say for the sake of argument the tree is like a sentient being.

可以说，树木对于落叶可能不会感到特别开心，但从某种意义上说，昆虫和其他植物最终会以这些落叶为食，这虽然以树木的损失为代价，却最终使它们受益。

It's probably not super happy let's say about losing its leaves, but then the bugs and other plants and stuff sort of end up feeding on that in some sense and it ends up benefiting them at the cost or the expense of the tree.

关于这种循环，我或许能举出其他更好的类比，但这确实是自然界中一个必要的循环。

There's other probably better analogies that I could use of that sort of cycle, but that's a necessary cycle in nature.

是的。

Yeah.

然后我们将这个循环扩展到不仅仅是第一步、第二步。

And then we extend that cycle beyond just that step one, step two.

树掉叶子，昆虫、细菌等就能美餐一顿。

Tree loses leaves, bugs, bacteria, et al get a nice hearty meal.

由于这些生物完成了分解工作，现在这些养分不仅可供这棵树使用，也能供附近其他树木吸收，对吧？

And then because those creatures have done their work of breaking things down, there are now nutrients available for that same tree and also trees in the local neighborhood, right?

所以这其中存在一种循环性。

So there is a cyclicity to it.

也就是说，昆虫、细菌和真菌的劳动实际上是在滋养这棵树，对吧？

So it's like the labor of the bugs and the bacteria and the fungi benefit the tree, right?

所以，这就像能量的流失，昆虫、细菌等所付出的努力。

So it's like the loss of energy, the effort made by the bugs and bacteria, etc.

滋养了这棵树。

Feeding the tree.

在循环系统中，这种以他人损失为代价的获益，最终会回馈给这些他人，前提是系统是健康的。

And so inside of a cyclical system, that gain at the expense of others ultimately goes back to those others if it's a healthy system.

在生态学中，我们更容易看到氮循环、氧循环、水循环这类本质上是循环的过程；但在那些线性思维取代了循环性的地方，就很难看清这些过程了。

In ecology, it's a lot easier to see those systems and process like the nitrogen cycle or the oxygen cycle or the water cycle or all of these ultimately circular processes, it's harder to see inside of systems where linearity has been imposed over circularity.

对。

Right.

这是个很好的观点。

That's a really good point.

我正想快速查一下有没有包含这段内容的安提奥库斯译本，但我觉得可能找不到。

I'm trying to find really quickly if I could find like a translation of Antiochus that has that passage, but I don't think I will be able to.

是的，那我们或许可以略过这一点。

Yeah, so maybe we can sort of skip that point.

但这种‘以牺牲他人利益为代价获得好处’的情况，既有建设性的版本，也有破坏性的版本——比如掠夺性的行为，这个词现在有很多内涵，但在自然界中，像捕食者或靠吃其他动物生存的动物，就是典型的例子：一方受益，另一方受损。

But there's both constructive versions of that of benefiting at the expense of somebody else and there's also destructive versions of that which are either let's say predatory which is a term that has a lot of connotations now, but also just in terms of actual predators in nature, let's say, or animals that survive by eating other animals for example would be an example of something that is one thing benefiting at the expense of another.

嗯，确实如此。

Mhmm, yeah, absolutely.

至少在单次互动中，不存在循环性，对吧？

And there's no circularity at least within that individual interaction, right?

比如狮子攻击羚羊，狮子和它的同伴们吃掉羚羊。

Like lion attacks antelope, lion and friends eat antelope.

那只特定的羚羊不会再回来，从被狮子吃掉中获得任何好处。

That specific antelope is not going to come back and derive benefits from having been eaten by lions.

但那只羚羊的残骸会肥沃那片土地，长出其他羚羊会来吃的草。

But the remains of that antelope will fertilize the ground there and grow grasses that other antelopes are gonna come eat.

对。

Right.

但这种循环性在个体层面上就不那么明显了，对吧？

But that circularity is less present on the individual scale, right?

所以我们想到像掠夺性贷款或贪婪这样的事情。

So we think about something like predatory lending or greed.

瓦伦斯谈到了欺骗，对吧？

Valens talks about deception, right?

欺骗就是优先考虑自己的利益，而忽视了对他人诚实。

Deceit and to 'deceive someone' is to prioritize your own benefit over honesty with another individual.

而有时，这种欺骗正是让你得以生存的关键，对吧？

And sometimes that deception is literally what allows you to survive, right?

有些情况下，为了自保，你不得不撒点谎，以便安然度过难关。

There are situations where it is necessary for your continuance in order to you have to maybe lie about something just to get through a situation unscathed.

但也有这种情况，就是我只是不想诚实，结果现在赚了数不清的钱。

But then there are situations where it's just like, I didn't feel like being honest and now I have a gajillion dollars.

就像

Like

我

I

我最近刚看了《卢拉·里奇》这部纪录片系列，里面确实充满了谎言，很多人靠牺牲大量他人的利益赚了大钱。

just watched the Lula Rich documentary series recently where there was definitely a lot of untruths happening and a lot of people making a lot of money at the expense of a whole lot of other people.

像金字塔骗局就是一个很好的例子，这种模式是以非循环的方式从他人身上获利。

Like a pyramid scheme would I think be a really good example of benefiting at the expense of others in a non cyclical fashion.

对。

Right.

比如多层次营销之类的模式。

Like a multi level marketing scheme or something like that.

是的。

Yeah.

对，这非常重要。

Yeah, that's really important.

这一点在古代占星师那里更为突出，他们将凶星和土星与吉星如木星相对比，土星象征欺骗，而木星则象征真实，带来光明，而土星则相反，使事物变得黑暗或神秘。

That comes up as much more prominent in ancient astrologers, how the malefics and Saturn get contrast as indicating deception because they're being contrasted with benefics like Jupiter as indicating truth and bringing light to things versus the opposite, making something darker or mysterious.

这是我们将在现代时期看到的转变之一，例如，在现代占星术中，海王星常常更多地与欺骗相关联，但记住一些传统文本中的这些欺骗观念仍然很有用。

That's something that we're gonna see We see shift in the modern times where, for example, Neptune often gets more of the like deception significations in modern astrology, but it's a useful thing to keep in mind from some of the traditional texts, some of those notions of deception.

是的，字面意义上的遮蔽。

Yeah, literally occulting.

土星也普遍与神秘事物相关联。

And Saturn gets associated with the occult in general as well.

谈到欺骗和神秘，土星和水星之间也存在某种关联。

Thinking about deception and the occult, there's also a relationship between Saturn and Mercury.

水星也是个捣蛋鬼，但水星的捣蛋更多像‘我把你的竖琴偷走了，阿波罗’，而不是土星那种令人毛骨悚然、可怕的欺骗。

Mercury is also a trickster, but the tricksterness of Mercury is often more like, I stole your harp, Apollo, versus the more spooky, scary deception that gets associated with Saturn.

对。

Right.

是的，这很有道理。

Yeah, that makes sense.

我们还得提一下其他一些事情，我在瓦伦斯的著作中看到的一个重要概念是约束和监禁，比如被限制、被压抑的东西——这在隐喻层面有很多不同的表现形式，比如精神上的束缚，但也可能有非常实际的表现，比如戴着手铐、被关进监狱或监牢。

Other things we have to bring up, one of them I'm seeing here in Valens is just notions of restraints and imprisonment I think are really important, like things that are restrained or held back or because metaphorically there's a lot of different like sometimes metaphorical ways that that can manifest of being metaphorically restrained, but also there can be very literal manifestations of that as well like being in handcuffs or being thrown in jail or prison.

这实际上引出了土星在宫位体系中的某些含义：在传统占星体系中，土星被认为在第十二宫有‘喜悦’，而在古希腊占星传统中，第十二宫被称为‘恶灵之宫’。

And that actually brings up some of the significations that Saturn has in the context of the houses where in the traditional astrological scheme, Saturn is said to have its joy or to rejoice in the twelfth house, which in the ancient Hellenistic tradition was called the place of bad spirit.

第十二宫主要与敌人、疾病、损失和孤立相关，这些也都是典型的土星含义。

And the twelfth was primarily associated with things like enemies, sickness, loss, and seclusion, which are all Saturnian type significations as well.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的，想到限制、封闭以及其极端形式很有趣，正如你所说，古代作者几乎都更强调极端情况——比如被铁链锁在墙上，关在可怕的监狱里。

Yeah, it's interesting thinking about constriction, containment, and the extremes of that, which as you've mentioned, the ancient authors will pretty much prioritize the extreme But to be extremely contained is handcuffed and attached to a chain to a wall and a terrible prison.

我现在想到的是18世纪英国的债务人监狱，那些地方真是惨不忍睹。

Right now, I'm envisioning the debtors' prisons from England and the 1700s or whatever, just terrible places.

对。

Right.

但限制也正如我之前提到的，皮肤的美是维纳斯的，而皮肤的功能却是土星的。

But containment is also, like I was mentioning earlier, the beauty of the skin is Venusian, but the function of the skin is Saturnian.

它起到容纳的作用。

It contains.

它让我们不至于变成一团团乱晃的器官和肌肉。

It makes us not just weird blobs of organs muscles flapping around.

是的，它把我们大部分是液体的身体保持在一起。

Yeah, and holds our largely liquid bodies together.

对。

Yeah.

我们甚至可以在摩羯座和巨蟹座的轴线上看到这一点：摩羯座，我经常说，是碗，而巨蟹座是牛奶。

And we can even see that in the Capricorn Cancer axis where it's like, Capricorn, I often say, the bowl and Cancer is the milk.

如果你必须，你可以直接从桌上舔牛奶，但桌子本身仍然是土星式的。

You can lick milk right off the table if you have to, but the table is still Saturnian.

当然。

Sure.

对。

Yeah.

这让我想起土星最显著的特征之一——它的光环，作为太阳系中主要的环状行星，古代占星家并不一定知道这一点。

Well, reminds me of, of course, one of the most striking components of Saturn, which is its rings, it being the primary ringed planet in the solar system, which ancient astrologers didn't know necessarily.

他们只能看到它是一颗缓慢移动的暗淡小星星。

They could only just see that it was this little slow moving dim star.

但随着望远镜的发明，尤其是当NASA开始发射航天器前往那里并拍摄这类照片——这些照片来自NASA或哈勃望远镜——人们终于看到土星周围环绕着美丽的光环，这引发了许多有趣的隐喻，一方面与克制等概念相关。

But eventually once telescopes were invented and especially once we started flying spacecraft out there with NASA and taking pictures like this one which comes from NASA or comes from maybe the Hubble telescope, you could see that Saturn has these really beautiful rings around it which invokes a lot of interesting metaphors that are kind of on the one hand tied in with some of these notions of restraint or things like that.

对，约束。

Yeah, containment.

对，甚至想想手铐，本质上也是圆形的。

Yeah, even thinking about handcuffs essentially make circles.

对，甚至婚戒，就是戴在手指上的戒指。

Yeah, or even a wedding ring, which is a ring that goes on your finger.

但它其中一个意义几乎是承诺在一段关系中永远在一起。

But one of the things that it is is almost like a promissory notion of being in an agreement to be permanently together in a relationship.

是的，我的意思是，它们就像是没有链条的微型手铐，或者说是概念上的链条而非实体链条。

Yeah, I mean, they're tiny finger shackles without the chain or with a conceptual chain rather than a physical chain.

好吧，这很浪漫。

Okay, that's very romantic.

这取决于你的偏好，我认为。

It depends on your proclivities, I think.

当然，没错。

Sure, right.

只是跟你开个玩笑。

Just messing with you.

但没错，仅仅是想到‘界限’这个概念，就是一种束缚。

But yeah, just this idea of even thinking about boundedness, to be bounded bondage.

我从束缚的奴役性角度来思考，意味着你的自由不再由你自己掌控，对吧？

I'm thinking of this in terms of the enslavement capacity of bondage and just to have your freedom not under your control, right?

是的，被限制，或者把权力交给别人甚至

Yeah, curtailed or to give power over to somebody else even to

只是让自己的权力被剥夺。

just To have your power taken away even.

我总是回到死亡这个概念，它既是字面意义上的，也是隐喻意义上的，是你无法控制的东西，它在某种程度上限制了你的行动自由、表达自由或存在自由。

And it's And I just keep coming back to death as the literal and metaphorical thing that you cannot control and that curtails your freedom of movement in some way, or freedom of expression or freedom of being.

是的。

Yeah.

有趣的是，那些拥有权力却不受这类约束的人，有时会被吸引，或暗中向往被置于这种受限制的情境中。

And that's funny sometimes those that have power and don't have those kinds of restraints being attracted to or secretly attracted to being put in a situation where they are restrained in that way.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的，是的。

Yeah, yeah.

我的意思是，对我而言，终极的自由反而比意识到自身行为的界限更令人恐惧。

I mean, it is interesting to think about how ultimate freedom is, for me at least, more terrifying than the awareness that there are limits as to what can be done.

而且，仅仅是想到无法无天的状态，这种无法无天的概念，尤其是那种混乱的景象——不仅没有明确的法律法规，可能连社会规范也不复存在。

And even just thinking about lawlessness, this idea of lawlessness, especially the chaos image of just there are no straight up governmental laws, but then maybe there are also no social laws either.

人们对自身冲动毫无约束，这种想法之所以令人恐惧，是因为我们意识到人类的许多表达方式中潜藏着大量暴力。

There's no restrictions on people's impulses and how that feels really terrifying because of this awareness that there's a lot of violence contained in aspects of human expression.

人类作为一个物种，曾做出过一些极其可怕的事情。道德、伦理、社会期望的约束，以及法律体系在某种程度上施加的限制，这些都是遏制混乱的因素，尽管从字面上看，它们也确实限制了自由。

Humans as a species have done some ridiculously terrible things and the restrictions of morality and ethics and social expectation plus the restrictions to a degree of the legal structure, those are all things that contain chaos even as they also, literally speaking, curtail freedom.

没错。

Right.

就像如果我们把自由理解为随心所欲、不计后果，而另一种自由观念则深深融入了责任意识。

Like if we understand freedom to just be doing whatever the hell you want regardless of the consequences versus an idea of freedom that deeply integrates an idea of responsibility within it as well.

是的，我很喜欢这个观点。

Yeah, I love that.

这真是个好观点。

That's a really good point.

就是关于界限的概念，在这次对话中我不断回到界限这个概念，想到土星，想到站在海滩上，拿起一根棍子，在你周围画一个三百六十度的圆圈，然后说，这就是我的界限。

Just the idea of boundaries, I keep coming back to in this conversation the idea of boundaries and thinking about Saturn and just thinking about standing on a beach and taking a stick and just drawing a circle around you three sixty degrees and saying like, These are my boundaries.

当您确立了这个界限后，告诉别人：你不能踏进这条线的这一边。

Saying to somebody else, You're not allowed to step on this side of that once you've established what that boundary is.

在某些方面，这只是一个想象中的圆圈，但在生活中，我们每个人都有各种各样的界限，这些界限或是明确的，或是隐含的，但它们都至关重要——因为一旦你逾越了这些界限，就可能陷入麻烦或引发问题。

In some ways, it's an imaginary circle, but there's different ways in life in which each of us has boundaries that we set up that are either explicit or implicit, but they nonetheless are very important in terms of sometimes when you transgress those things or go outside of the boundaries, that's when you get into trouble or there can be problems.

是的，完全正确。

Yeah, totally.

这让我想起，杰西卡·林亚图经常说过类似的话——我无法准确引用，但大意是：界限正是让我们彼此相爱的空间。

And it just reminds me, Jessica Linyatu has often said something along the lines I'm not going to be able to quote perfectly but something along the lines of boundaries are what give both of us space to love each other.

嗯。

Mhmm.

当你设定界限时，你会说：这是我的空间，对吧？

Understanding if you're drawing a boundary, you're like, This is the space that is my space, right?

或者：这些是被接受的事情，这是一种对某种有形或隐喻性领地的主张。

Or, These are the things that are acceptable, and that's a claiming of a certain kind of literal or metaphorical territory.

就像：这是我需要的空间。

Like, This is the room I need.

这说得真好，因为另一位也是摩羯座上升、由土星守护的占星师，所以这句话从另一位占星师口中说出再合适不过了。

That's a really good because it's another Capricorn rising Saturn ruled astrologer, so that's a perfect statement coming from another Yeah.

土星

Saturn

尽管我们实践占星的方式非常不同，但我对她所说的很多观点都深表认同，这可能正是原因所在。

Even though we practice astrology in very different ways, I agree with her on so many things and it's probably because of that.

这说得通。

That makes sense.

是的，土星在关系中代表着界限的积极一面。

Yeah, so Saturn in relationships, the positive side of boundaries.

还有别的吗？

Is there anything else?

让我再把瓦伦斯的资料调出来。

Let me pull Valens up again.

我觉得我们聊到很多内容了。

I feel like we're getting into a lot of stuff.

我们还有更多岔开的话题和很好的方向，但我知道我们必须继续前进。

There's many more digressions and good directions that we're going, so I know we have to move on it.

是的，有一件事我想提一下，因为他掌管土壤，所以他与农民和园丁有关。

Yeah, one thing that I wanted to touch on is he makes farmers and gardeners because he rules the soil.

我有时在客户咨询中喜欢谈论的一个观点是，土星（克洛诺斯）与农业有着历史上的关联。

One of the things that I like to talk about sometimes in client sessions is this idea that Saturn, Kronos, has these historical associations with agriculture.

土星作为收割者的形象，不仅仅是收割灵魂，对吧？

It's like this image of Saturn as the reaper, it's not just the reaping of souls, right?

它实际上是在田地里收割谷物的收成。

It's literally out in the fields reaping the harvest of grain.

对。

Right.

这种观念认为，你与现实协作的努力所带来的财富，无论是实际的现金，还是像农业中的小麦那样能换现金的东西，都是如此。

And this idea of the wealth or the consequences of your efforts in collaboration with reality being this wealth of whether it's actual cash money or the things that you sell for cash money like wheat in an agricultural sense.

‘种瓜得瓜，种豆得豆’，这不仅是一个比喻性的说法和概念，它与农业有着非常直接的联系。

To reap what you have sown, that is just a turn in phrase and concept, and it has these very literal ties to agriculturalism.

是的

Yeah,

我非常喜欢这一点，因为你必须全面理解农民所做的事——播种、照料、浇水

I love that because you have to take it through the whole idea of what a farmer does and planting the seed then tending to it and watering it

还要有耐心。

And be patient.

要有耐心，是的，需要很长一段时间。

Patient, yeah, over a long period of time.

然后当时机成熟，植物达到完美的成熟状态时，就能准确知道何时该收获。

Then eventually when the time is right, when it's reached that perfect moment of maturity or whatever the plant, then knowing exactly when it's time to harvest it.

嗯。

Mhmm.

农耕或园艺需要深刻理解哪些是你能控制的，哪些是你无法控制的。

And farming or gardening requires a lot of understanding what you have control over and what you don't.

你无法控制天气。

You can't control the weather.

你无法决定是否会在你即将收获娇嫩番茄时突然下一场冰雹。

You cannot dictate whether or not there's a hailstorm that comes right before it's time to harvest your super tender tomatoes.

这正体现了宇宙自有其幽默感，有时甚至近乎残酷。

That's this idea that the universe has its own sort of humor, sometimes very mean humor almost.

但这种经历令人失望：你明明已经快要收获了，却遭遇了损失。

But that's a disappointing experience to be like, I was so close to being ready to harvest this thing, and then there's a loss experience.

但如果你运气够好，天气适宜，又足够耐心，最终就能迎来丰收。

But then you get lucky enough with the weather, and you're patient enough, you end up having a bountiful harvest.

园艺和农业都需要掌握大量的技能，尤其是在环境充满挑战的情况下，无论出于何种原因。

Gardening and agriculture both have vast amounts of skills to master, especially if you are doing so in an environment that's challenging for whatever combination of reasons.

这就像考虑伴生种植、施肥、育苗时机，以及应对害虫等问题。

It's like thinking about, I don't know, companion planting and fertilizing and timing your seedlings and navigating pests.

如果你要销售这些产品，你该如何把它们运到市场？

And if you're selling these things, how do you get them to market?

你该如何吸引顾客？

How do you get customers?

要成为一名成功的农民或园丁，需要掌握的东西太多了。

There's just a massive amount of things to know in in order to be a successful farmer or gardener.

是的，完全对。

Yeah, totally.

你一直使用的‘后果’这个词，作为如此贴切的土星术语，让我想到一个旁注：在二十世纪晚期的占星学中，土星开始越来越多地被更具新时代倾向的占星师与业力的概念联系起来。

And that word you keep using of consequences being such a good Saturnian term, it makes me think of a side note of where in late twentieth century astrology, Saturn started being associated with more and more especially by more New Age inclined astrologers with the concept of karma.

我一直对此有点异议，因为我不认为，只要业力这个概念存在，星盘中就只有一个因素能代表它。

And I always had a little bit of an issue with that in that I don't think there's just like one thing in a chart that to whatever extent the concept of karma exists, I don't think there's one thing in a chart that indicates it.

在印度占星学中，整个星盘在某种程度上都是一个人过去或前世业力行为的结果。

In Indian astrology, the entire chart to some extent is the result of one's karma or karmic actions from the past or past lives.

但如果我们仅仅把业力理解为过去行为的后果——无论那意味着什么——我认为这为我们理解土星有时所指示的含义提供了一个更有趣的切入点，也就是你所说的‘种瓜得瓜，种豆得豆’。

But if we just understand karma in terms of consequences of past actions, whatever that means, I think that's a much more interesting access point for understanding what Saturn indicates sometimes and that idea that you said of reaping what you sow.

是的，完全对。

Yeah, totally.

尤其是当你能把‘后果’这个概念从单纯的惩罚角度中剥离出来时，去思考‘后果’与‘纪律’这两个概念——它们在文化语境中都极具土星特质，而这种文化由于种种原因，往往倾向于将‘后果’等同于‘惩罚’，而非单纯的‘结果’甚至‘责任’。

Especially if you can divorce your concept of consequences from the only punitive angle, think concepts of consequences and discipline, which are both very Saturnian inside of a cultural context that for a very large combination of reasons tends towards this concept of 'punition' instead of just 'results' or even 'accountability'.

在这里找到合适的表达方式可能很有挑战性，我想这正是‘业力’这个概念出现的部分原因。

It can be challenging to find language to use here, and I think that's actually part of why the idea of karma came in.

我其实也不太使用‘业力’这个词，因为它与我所参与的精神实践无关，而且我一想到‘业力’，就很难完全把它和‘罪恶’的概念区分开来，对吧？

I also don't really use the language of karma because it's not relevant inside of the spiritual practices that I engage in And because I perceive and then have a hard time completely dissociating karma from the concepts of sin right?

因为我最初接触‘业力’这个概念时，它明显是用一种新语言来表达旧有的‘罪恶’观念，以及罪恶带来的问题，比如永远被罚下地狱，而不是简单地视为后果。

Just because my early exposures to the ideas of karma were definitely kind of using a new language for an old idea of sin and the problems of sin and being damned to hell forever kind of thing versus simply just consequences.

是的。

Yeah.

这里确实有一个切入点。

And there's some access point there.

我总是记得我的一位Project Hindsight导师罗伯特·施密特指出，古希腊占星家们用‘proxus’这个词来指代第十宫，意思是‘行动’。

I always remember one of my teachers from Project Hindsight, Robert Schmidt, pointed out that in the ancient Greek astrologers, they used the term the tenth house was said to signify proxus which means action.

他还提到，在梵语中，‘karma’这个词最初的部分含义就是‘行动’。

And that he noted that in Sanskrit, the word karma originally that was partially just what karma meant was action.

所以，业力是行动的结果，而第十宫则是行动发生的地方，是你发起行动之处，后来也演变为一个人所作所为的象征。

And so it's like the result of actions, but the tenth house is the place of actions and the place of where you initiate action, but also then became the place of what one does.

我们今天常说的那句话，当你问别人‘你是做什么的？’

And that phrase that we have today of when you ask somebody, you know, what do you do?

你其实是在问他们的职业，但从更广泛的意义上来说，他们的职业只是他们在世界上所做的事情的一种体现。

You're asking them what their profession is, but in some broader sense, you know, what their profession is is just what they do in the world in some broader way.

是的，我觉得在不合适的语境下，当一个人说‘嘿，你的proxus是什么？’会让人难以忍受，但如果有这样的开场白的话……

Yeah, I feel like in the wrong context it would be insufferable to be this person, but to have that opening of being like, Hey, what's your proxus?

而不是说‘嘿，你……’

Instead of like, Hey, what do

对，没错。

you Right.

是的。

Yeah.

我

I

我喜欢这个说法。

like that.

好吧。

All right.

所以我觉得这对瓦伦斯来说已经很不错了，我们可以继续了。

So I think that's pretty good for Valens, we can move on.

在我们转向阿布·马沙尔之前，我刚刚想到一件事，就是回到我过去几个月一直反复提及的主题——土星会放慢事物的速度。

Something I was just thinking about before we jump to Abu Ma'shar is just going back to that theme that I keep dwelling on over the past few months of Saturn slowing things down.

有时这会导向一种终极的缓慢，那就是死亡本身。

And sometimes that leads to what is the ultimate slowness but death itself.

当生命和其他一切彻底停止时，就是它永久放缓的时候。

That's when life and everything else comes to a stop is when it slows down permanently.

土星会放慢事物的速度，但它也会带来事物的终结，而这又引出了土星的另一个含义——结束。

So Saturn slows things down, but it also brings about the cessation of things which then also leads to another Saturn signification sometimes which can be endings.

例如，当土星运行到某个宫位时，它可能会减缓该宫位或你生活中相应部分的事物进展。

And sometimes this comes up for example with Saturn transits like seeing when it will transit through a certain house, it can slow things down in that house or in that part of your life.

有时，这种放缓甚至会是最终的放缓，即彻底终结某件事。

Or in some instances, the slowing down can be the ultimate slowing down of bringing something to an end.

是的，让某事画上句号。

Yeah, bringing something to a close.

是的，这很有趣。

Yeah, and it's interesting.

这是其中一个要点，即使只是讨论凶星之间有什么共同点，吉星之间又有什么共同点，你会发现，两颗凶星都带有终结的特质，但火星带来的终结往往感觉更暴力、更突然、更 abrupt，就像你之前提到的那股速度感。

This is one of the things, even just talking about what do the malefics have in common with each other and what do the benefics have in common with each other, and it's like both of the malefics have this ending aspect to them, but the Mars ending often feels more violent or more abrupt, more sudden, like that speed component you were talking about earlier.

因为这也像是一种切断或分离，一种割裂。

Because it's also like a severing or a separation type thing, a cutting.

是的，没错。

Yeah, yeah.

它曾经存在，而现在已不复存在，以一种非常强烈的方式。

It was and now it's no longer in a very intense way.

而土星则更像是：当然，现在已经结束了。

Whereas with Saturn, feels more like, Of course it's done now.

对。

Right.

这就像一种完成与彻底毁灭的区别。

It's like a completion versus utter destruction.

是的。

Yeah.

假设我们谈论第七宫和关系，这是一种每个人在某个时候都会经历的体验。

Let's say we're talking about seventh house and relationships which is an experience everyone goes through at some point.

但你之前提到的一点是，火星的关键字是突然性，火星更显突然，而土星第七宫的过渡有时则是最终决定结束，意识到一段关系已经走到了尽头，现在是时候了，也就是说，多年来积累的那些信号逐渐显现，现在是时候离开了，所以这可能是一个长期酝酿的过程，而非特别突然。

But one of your things you were saying, think in the keyword is abruptness for Mars, that Mars is more abrupt whereas sometimes Saturn seventh house transit can be finally calling it quits and realizing a relationship has run its entire course and now it's time to, you know, the accumulated things over years of those, let's say, signals have built up and now it's time to leave so that it's something that was long and coming or something that may not be super abrupt.

这个过程可能持续一两年甚至三年，但仍然存在一种对过去行为和后果不断累积的认知，这些累积最终表明是时候结束了。

It may be like a process of getting out of it that lasts even a year or two or three, but there's still this realization of the accumulation of past actions and consequences that have added up to indicate that it's time to end something.

是的，是的。

Yeah, yeah.

就像分手时，你会说：其实我三年前就知道这迟早会发生。

Just like the breakup where you're just like, I mean, I knew this was gonna happen like three years ago.

对。

Right.

只是时候还没到。

It just wasn't time yet.

你只是在硬撑着。

You're just hanging in there.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

而火星导致的分手可能是：我以为一切都很好。

Whereas the Mars breakup can be like, I thought everything was great.

对。

Right.

什么？

Like, what?

但如果我们从第七宫的角度来看，这种结束方式也可能不同，对吧？

But at the same time, it can be a different kind of ending if we're thinking about the seventh house, right?

比如，土星经过第七宫时，可能看起来是其他因素在朝这个方向发展。

Like a Saturn transit through the seventh house can look like other factors are moving in this direction.

这就像一段非承诺关系的结束，换句话说，是更实质性的承诺的开始，比如：好吧，我们搬去一起住，或者我们要结婚了。

It's like the end of a non committed relationship, which is to say the beginning of commitment in a more substantive way, whether that's Okay, cool, we're gonna move in together, or, We're gonna get married.

回到我们之前说的，婚戒就像没有实体链条束缚的枷锁，只是意味着：好了，我们要把这事定下来了。

Going back to what we were saying before, wedding rings shackles without a physical chain between them of just being like, Cool, we're gonna lock this down.

实际上，我刚才在想这件事。

Actually, that was something I was thinking about.

不知为什么，我突然想起芝加哥曾经有一家叫‘Lockdown’的汉堡店，那是一家以监狱为主题、主打重金属音乐的汉堡店。

For some reason, I was remembering this burger joint that used to exist in Chicago called the Lockdown', which was a prison themed metal music burger bar.

好的。

Okay.

但‘lockdown’这个词作为土星的象征，意味着把某事锁定下来。

But 'lockdown' as a Saturn word, to lock something down.

是的，或者把事情确定下来。

Yeah, or to lock it in.

是的，或者把事情确定下来。

Yeah, or to lock it in.

嗯嗯。

Mhmm.

是的，锁。

Yeah, locks.

锁是土星的。

Locks are Saturnian.

钟表也一样，只不过前面加了个 'c'，这也是土星的。

And clocks, which is just a lock with a 'c' at the front, that's also Saturnian.

好的，我喜欢这个说法。

Okay, I like that.

如果要给这个节目选一句标语，这就是这集的标语了。

If there's one tagline for this, that'll be the tagline for this episode.

钟表不过是加了个 'c' 的锁。

Clocks are just locks with Cs on the end.

不是吗？

Isn't it?

天啊。

Man.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

我喜欢这个。

I like that.

我喜欢这个方向。

I like where this is going.

所以放慢节奏，为事物画上句号，收尾整理，但另一方面，正如你所说，有时也为某事赋予永久性的承诺，达成正式协议，或试图为某事建立基础，使其更加持久和长久，从而在某种意义上启动一个承诺，让它能够持续到遥远的未来。

So slowing things down, bringing endings to things, wrapping them up, but also on the flip side as you were saying sometimes putting a permanent commitment on something and entering into like a formal agreement or trying to create a foundation for something so that it would be more permanent and long lasting and initiating a promise in some sense that it will be something that will last long into the future.

是的，持久性意味着：好吧，我们可能已经对它进行了一些压力测试，并证明了它迄今为止是坚固的。

Yeah, endurance to be like, Okay, we've maybe done some stress testing on this and we've proven that it's thus far durable.

我们把它确定下来，看看它到底有多持久。

Let's lock it in and see how durable it actually is.

我想到的一个短语是它经得起时间的考验。

A phrase that comes to mind is that it stands the test of time.

嗯嗯。

Uh-huh.

是的，完全对。

Yeah, totally.

完全对。

Totally.

非常土星式。

Very Saturnian.

是的。

Yeah.

不知为什么，这让我想起了《美女与野兽》里的那首歌《永恒的爱》。

And for some reason, that's reminding me of A Tale as Old as Time, like the Disney song.

哦，顺带一提。

Oh, Total side note.

那出自哪里？

Was that from?

什么故事是

What Tale as

老掉牙了。

Old as Time.

不，是《美女与野兽》。

No, Beauty and the Beast.

那是《美女与野兽》吗？

Is that Beauty and the Beast?

是的。

Yeah.

好吧，对。

Okay, yeah.

这很有趣，因为那部电影里也有一个具象化的动画时钟角色。

Which is funny because that one also has a literal animated clock character.

对。

Right.

是的，卢塞恩人。

Yeah, Lutzernian.

我喜欢这个。

I like that.

我对自己的迪士尼知识有点失望。

I'm a little disappointed in my Disney knowledge.

10岁的我此刻非常失望，但至少是他想出来的，这还不错。

10 year old me is severely disappointed right now, but at least he came up with it, so that's pretty good.

是的。

Yeah.

好吧。

All right.

那我们来看我们的第二位占星师。

So let's go to our second astrologer.

他们的第一位是维迪乌斯·瓦伦斯，我们在希腊占星传统的早期阶段就讨论过他。

So their first one was Vedius Valens, who we're talking about very early in the Western astrological tradition with the Hellenistic tradition.

现在我们将跨越几个世纪，来到阿布·马沙尔和他的著作《大引论》，这部著作大约写于九世纪中叶的巴格达。

Now we're going to jump forward several centuries to Abu Ma'shar and his text, The Great Introduction, which was written in Baghdad probably around the middle of the ninth century.

这个译本出自本杰明·戴克斯。

And this translation is from Benjamin Dykes.

你觉得读这个还行吗？

Do you feel okay reading it?

实际上它分为两部分。

It's actually two part.

因为它特别长，阿布·马沙尔以啰嗦著称，所以分在两张幻灯片上。

It's kind of long because Abu Ma'shar famously very wordy, so it's on two slides.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，他只是在炫耀自己能买多少纸吗？

I mean, was that just him showing off at how much paper he could buy?

确实，一些后来的占星家对此表示抱怨。

Mean, some later astrologers complained about it.

因为他写了《大引论》，之后又写了《小引论》，那本书非常简短精炼。

Think because he did the greater introduction and then he also did the lesser introduction where it's super short and concise.

我终于找到了阿尔卡比西的文本，我认为他比阿布·马沙尔晚了一个世纪，他认为《大引论》太长了，而《小引论》又太短，于是他试图写一本居中的书，这就是阿尔·卡比西的《占星学导论》，它在欧洲变得非常流行，因为它恰好抓住了中间的平衡点。

And I finally got the text of Al Kabisi who I think was a century later after Abu Ma'shar and he thought that the greater introduction was way too long and the shorter introduction was way too short, so he tried to write something in between and that's what Al Qubisi's introduction to astrology is, and it ended up becoming really popular in Europe because it sort of hit that sweet spot right in the middle.

是的。

Yeah.

凶星和吉星又来了。

Malefics and benefics yet again.

是的，极端情况。

Yes, extremes.

对。

Yep.

是的，我乐意读它。

Yeah, I'm good to read it.

至于土星，其本性是冷却、干燥，对应黑胆汁，颜色深暗，质地粗粝。

As for Saturn, his nature is cooling, drying, black bile, dark, harsh in coarseness.

但有时它也表现为冷却且湿润，气息沉重而腐臭。

But sometimes it is cooling and wet, heavy, stinking air.

他贪食，情感真挚，象征与湿润相关的工作，如耕作、农事、村长、土地开垦、建筑、水源与河流、物品估价、土地分配、财富与资产丰盈、手工艺者与吝啬之人、严酷的贫困、卑微者远渡重洋、长期离乡、遥远的凶险旅程，以及迷惑、恶意、怨恨、狡诈、阴谋、欺骗、背叛、伤害、痛苦、孤独、人际稀少、装腔作势、缺乏节制、傲慢、自负、吹嘘、奴役他人者、苏丹的管家，以及一切由邪恶、强迫、不公、愤怒驱动的工作，还有战士、锁链、囚禁、枷锁、施加限制、言语真诚、沉着稳重、不急不躁、有洞察力、经得起考验的行为、审慎、固执、深思熟虑、深刻、坚持、执着于单一道路、极少发怒，但若真怒，则难以自控，从不希望他人得好。

And he is of much eating, sincere in his affection, and indicates works of moisture, plowing, farming, the masters of villages, the cultivation of land, building, waters and rivers, the appraising of things, the apportioning of lands, wealth and an abundance of assets, Those working with their hands and avarice, harsh poverty, lowly people travel on the seas, a long absence from the homeland, and distant bad journeys, and delusion, malice, resentment, cunning, stratagems, deception, treachery, harm, anguish, solitude and little company with people, putting on airs, lack of restraint, haughtiness, conceit, boasting, those who enslave the people, managers for the sultan, and every work done with evil, coercion, injustice, and anger and fighters, chains, confinement, the stocks, and imposing restrictions and sincerity of speech, deliberateness, being unhurried, understanding, tested, actions, examination, stubbornness, much thought, profundity, insistence, sticking to a single path, hardly ever getting angry, but if he did get angry he would not be able to control himself, not loving the good for anyone.

他还象征老年人与人群中德高望重者、恐惧、艰辛、忧虑、悲伤、沮丧、混乱、复杂、困难、逆境、限制、祖先、亡者、遗产、哀悼、孤儿、旧物、祖父、父亲、兄长、奴隶、马厩工人、守财奴、声名狼藉者、蒙羞者、强盗、掘墓人？

And he indicates old men and the weighty among people, fear, hardships, anxieties, sorrows, dejection, confusion, complications, difficulty, adversity, restriction, the ancestors, the dead, inheritances, lamentation, orphanhood, old things, grandfathers, fathers, older brothers, slaves, stable workers, misers, people who have a bad reputation, disgraced people, robbers, gravediggers, murderers?

穆尔达基什？

Murdakishes?

这些是什么？

What are these?

就在掘墓人之后？

Right after gravediggers?

穆尔达基什。

Murdakishes.

我不知道这个穆尔达基什是什么。

I don't know what that Murdakishes.

简直像本忘了翻译一个阿拉伯术语。

Almost like Ben forgot to translate one Arabic term.

我待会儿去谷歌一下。

I'll Google it later.

好的，没问题。

Okay, cool.

盗尸者、制革工、制造劣质品的人、巫师、社会动乱的煽动者、乌合之众、太监、深思寡言、知晓秘密之人，无人知晓其内心所想，也从不向任何人透露，通晓一切深奥之事，且象征着在虔诚的宗教团体中过苦修生活。

Body snatchers, tanners, people who make things faulty, sorcerers, masters of social unrest, the riffraff, eunuchs, long thought but little speech, the knowledge of secrets, and no one knows what is in his soul nor does he disclose it to anyone, being acquainted with every abstruse matter, and it indicates leading an ascetic life in the devout people of religious communities.

不错。

Nice.

是的。

Yeah.

这太多了。

That is a lot.

显然，我们在瓦伦斯那里看到的一些内容在这里得到了延续，还有一些额外的负面和可怕的含义，但我觉得他比瓦伦斯做得更多，不仅指出了这些，还纳入了一些更具建设性的含义。

So obviously there's some continuation of some things that we saw in Valens, there's some additional negative and terrible significations, but then I feel like he does a little bit more than Valens did to indicate or include some of the more constructive significations as well.

是的，完全正确。

Yeah, absolutely.

甚至当我们回顾之前讨论过的关于财富、丰裕和物质性的一些内容时，这些都相当有趣，因为它们并不是我通常会将土星直接联系起来的特质，而更像是一个人土星能量匮乏时可能出现的情况，比如暴饮暴食。

And even seeing some of the things that we were talking about before in terms of wealth and abundance, materiality, some of these things are really interesting because they're not things I would personally associate with Saturn in terms of just straight up Saturnian expression, but more of the things that I would think would maybe come about if somebody was deficient in Saturn, like much eating.

我认为这与我们之前谈到的苦修恰恰相反。

I consider that to be the opposite of the sort of austerity we were talking about before.

是的。

Yeah.

是的，有很多复杂的事情需要考虑，在某些情况下，隐含的意思是：我们讨论的是一个处于有利位置的土星所带来的建设性影响，或者是一个位置不佳的土星所带来的负面效应。

Yeah, there's a lot of tricky things that have to do with In some instances, implicit thing here is that we're talking about a dignified Saturn for constructive things or we're talking about a poorly placed Saturn for negative things.

还有一些奇怪或特定语境下的内容，比如他提到苏丹的管理者，这非常有趣，因为我们讨论的是九至十世纪巴格达《一千零一夜》的时代，这凸显了占星术在不同时期的文化相对性。

There's other things that are weird or context specific like he says the managers for the Sultan which is really interesting as we're talking about ninth century 101 Arabian Nights Baghdad timeframe when we're talking about this and just in terms of the cultural relativity of astrology during whatever period we're talking about.

我们还会遇到所有这些古老文本的问题，我在研究瓦伦斯时就亲身体验到了。

We also run into issues with all of these older texts which I got a firsthand experience with Valens.

如果你读过我的书，就会发现我几乎在每一个象征意义下面都加了上百万条注释，因为在解释层面，古希腊语或古阿拉伯语中的一个词可能有五到十种不同的含义，而译者往往只选择他们认为最正确的一种。

If you read my book, I put a million footnotes under almost every signification because there's a level of interpretation where the word in ancient Greek or here in ancient Arabic may mean, you know, five or 10 different things and the translator sort of goes with the one that they think is the most correct.

但可能还有其他一系列含义，这些含义或许更贴切，或者更符合作者本意，又或者如果你生活在九世纪的社会中，你会更清楚为什么他们选择了这个象征意义，等等。

But there may be other A range of other meanings that could be better or that the author could actually mean or if you were living in ninth century society, you would understand better why they picked that signification or what have you.

对。

Right.

甚至想想词语的内涵，对吧？

Even thinking about connotations, right?

一个词的内涵会随着时间发生巨大变化。

A given word's connotation can change vastly over time.

我曾经开始写一篇关于塔罗牌中‘审判’牌的论文，但从未分享过，因为‘审判’作为负面含义，其实并不是这个词原本定义的一部分。

At one point, I started writing an essay that I've never shared about the judgment card in tarot, and judgment as a negative thing is a connotational component that's not within the original definition of the term.

‘命运’这个词也一样，‘迎接你的命运’原本就是‘迎接你的宿命’的意思。

Same thing with 'doom' to meet your doom was the same as meeting your destiny.

但现在我们有了这样的联想：‘厄运’很糟糕，‘命运’很美好，但在这些词的原始含义中，它们都是中性的。

But now we have this connotation that 'doom is terrible' and 'destiny is amazing', But in the original senses of those words, they're both neutral.

好的。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

所以在处理这类问题，尤其是研究历史事物时，有很多类似这样棘手的地方。

So there's a lot of tricky stuff like that when it comes to things like this and especially looking at historical things.

我们大部分时间会略过这些细节，但人们确实需要意识到这一点。

We're gonna gloss over most of that for the most part, but it's something people do have to It's be aware worth

牢记在心。

keeping in mind.

是的，当然。

Yeah, for sure.

好吧，那我们来看看之前提到过哪些内容？

All right, so let's pull up What were some of the things?

嗯，其中提到的一点是，他并没有完全使用这个词，但在这些含义中的某个地方，它让我想到的一个词是‘庄重感’，就像那些有庄重感的人。

Well, one of the things that came up, he didn't use this word exactly, but somewhere in one of these significations, one of the terms that it brought up to me was gravitas, like people that have gravitas.

可能是在后面的一些含义里。

Maybe it was some of the later ones.

开始谈论言语的真诚，但尤其是审慎性。

Starts talking about sincerity of speech, but especially deliberateness.

土星是非常审慎的，不慌不忙，做事缓慢，但非常审慎，按照自己的节奏行事。

Saturn is very deliberate, unhurried, being slow to do something, but being very deliberate and doing it at your own time.

这让我想起了《指环王》里的树胡，以及那些移动非常缓慢的树木，还有关于此的一些对话。

It sort of reminds me of Lord of the Rings, Treebeard and some of the trees that move very slowly and some of the dialogue about that.

是的，我其实觉得这是个绝妙的比喻，因为想想阿布·马沙尔说的，‘几乎从不发怒，但一旦发怒，便无法控制自己’。

Yeah, I actually think that's a wonderful metaphor because even thinking about this thing that Abu Ma'shar is saying, 'hardly ever getting angry, but if he did get angry, he would not be able to control himself'.

这正是蚂蚁身上发生的情况。

And that's exactly what happens with the ants.

蚂蚁们就像是，你知道吗？

The ants are like, You know what?

这没问题。

It's not a problem.

那个在那边。

That's over there.

那些是给那些人的。

Those are for those people.

我们在这儿。

We're over here.

然后他们目睹了萨鲁曼造成的破坏，顿时暴怒了。

And then they witness the destruction that Sauormon has been wreaking, and they just go bananas.

他们摧毁了一切，推倒水坝， literally 把半兽人左扔右扔。

They destroy everything, pulling down dams and literally just throwing orcs left and right.

太惊人了。

It's incredible.

是的，克里斯，这确实是个非常好的隐喻。

Yeah, that's actually a really great metaphor, Chris.

谢谢。

Thank you.

是的，我真希望记得原话。

Yeah, I wish I could remember the exact quote.

如果贝卡·塔纳斯或乔·格利森在场，他们能告诉我树须的原话，但我相信有人能在评论里提出来。

If Becca Tarnas or Joe Gleeson were here, they could tell me the exact quote from Treebeard, but I'm sure somebody can mention it in the comments.

别太匆忙，这是树须说的一句话，不是那么匆忙。

Don't be so hasty is something that Not so hasty is the thing that Treebeard says

反复地说。

repeatedly.

还有一句话是，任何值得做的事都值得去做。

And there was some other thing about anything worth doing is worth doing.

我不确定这是否真的是原话，还是

Don't know if that's actually a quote or

我想到的是，任何值得说的事都值得花时间慢慢说，这大概是树鸟说的另一句话的意思。

I'm getting Anything worth saying is worth taking your time to say is like the gist of one of the things that Tree Bird says also.

就是这样。

That's it.

这让我想起了这里一些内容所提醒我的：理解、审视、深思、深刻，就像那些话不多、不常说话的人。

That's what some of this stuff down here is reminding me of understanding, examination, much thought, profundity, like those who are of few words or don't necessarily talk a lot.

但当他们开口时，所说的话更加深刻，而且用词更简练。

But when they do, it's saying something that is more profound and doing it in a shorter amount of words.

在下一张幻灯片中，阿布·马沙尔说：‘深思熟虑，言语稀少，从而洞悉秘密，但无人知晓他内心所想，因为他从不言说。’

In the next slide, Abu Ma'shar says, Long thought but little speech, and then the knowledge of secrets, but no one knows what's in his soul because he's not saying it.

还有‘沉重’这个词，我对这个词感到好奇，我完全不懂阿拉伯语，但我在想，‘沉重’是指身体肥胖的人吗？

And the weighty, I wonder at that word there, I don't know the Arabic at all, but I wonder, the weighty, does that mean people who have a lot of body mass?

还是说，它指的是你刚才提到的那种庄重感？

Or is that the weighty in the sense of gravitas that you were just bringing up?

是的。

Yeah.

紧接其后，‘通晓所有隐秘之事’让我也想到，我们之前提到过‘秘传’，因为‘秘传’原本就有隐藏或黑暗的含义。

And right after that, being acquainted with every obtruse matter makes me think also of like you know, we mentioned occult previously because occult originally meant like hidden or dark in some sense.

嗯嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

但现在它已经演变成某种别的含义，而这正是它具有这种内涵的原因之一。

But now it's come to mean sort of something else, but that's part of the reason why it has that connotation.

嗯嗯。

Mhmm.

好。

Yeah.

美学也是如此，它说过着美学生活是一种非常土星式的事情。

Aesthetic also, it says those who lead an aesthetic life is a very Saturnian thing.

明白。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这让人想到了瓦伦斯提到的简朴观念，对吧？

I mean, that brings up the austerity thing from Valens, right?

对。

Right.

苦行主义是一种极端的简朴，涉及你认为什么是必要或可取的。

Asceticism being an extreme austerity in terms of what you consider necessary or desirable.

甚至不一定是可取的，而是你认为什么是必要且允许的。

Not even necessarily desirable, but what do you consider necessary and permissible.

对吧？

Right?

有时候我觉得土星更关心什么是可接受的，而不是什么是惊人的。

Sometimes I think Saturn is more concerned with what is okay than what is amazing.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，最基本的生存需求是什么，只要这些就够了，不需要生活中那些非绝对必要的其他精致东西。

And also, do you need at the bare minimum to survive and that being sufficient and not needing some of the other finer things in life or other things that are not absolutely necessary to live.

是的，正是如此。

Yeah, exactly.

如果无法获得快乐，那么在不需要木星的丰盛或金星的感官愉悦的情况下，如何才能避免彻底绝望呢？

What does it mean to find access to, if not joy, then not completely despondent without needing the excesses of Jupiter or the sensorial pleasures of Venus.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

昨天我在推特上看到有人发帖说，木星代表数量，金星代表质量。

Somebody on Twitter I saw yesterday, they had a tweet where they said Jupiter is quantity and Venus is quality.

这让我想到你刚才说的，土星有时候体现的是‘多即是少’或‘少即是多’，这是一种土星式的特质。

And it makes me think of that because there is a contrast there, as you were just saying, with Saturn with sometimes more is less or less is more in a sense as being a Saturn type thing.

是的。

Yeah.

在当代语境下，我认为极简主义作为一种生活方式，绝对是土星式的。

In contemporary sense, I would say that minimalism as a lifestyle would definitely be Saturnian.

对。

Right.

当然。

For sure.

好的。

All right.

让我回到这一点。

Let me go back to this.

我的意思是，这里有一个我必须岔开的话题。

Mean, it is talking about there is a digression I have to make.

他提到的旧事物，包括当他开始谈论祖父、父亲、年长的兄弟等等时。

He says old things which includes when he starts getting into people like grandfathers, fathers, older brothers, and so on.

多年来，在《占星播客》上，关于土星一直有个持续的话题，我记得是查理·奥伯特在多罗西厄斯的著作中发现了一段话，说土星是女性的，这与传统占星师普遍认为土星是男性化不同——通常行星是男性化时，代表男性人物。

It's been an ongoing thing about Saturn for years on The Astrology Podcast where I think it was Charlie Obert found a quote in Dorotheus where it said that Saturn was feminine, which is different from the rest of the astrologers traditionally Saturn masculine So to be a masculine planet or indicate masculine figures.

因此，一直有个持续的问题是：如果土星是女性的，火星是男性的，其他行星如金星是女性的，如此类推，整个体系会显得更加对称，这会很有趣。

And there's been an ongoing question then of because it would have been interesting because it would have created a more symmetrical scheme if Saturn was feminine, Mars was masculine, and so on and so forth with the other planets like Venus feminine and what have you.

从文本上看，我们今天所拥有的多罗西厄斯文本版本确实有这一处提及，但我们不确定这是否只是源自阿拉伯文的传抄错误，因为这个版本已经经过了三次转译，远离了原始语言。

Textually, the version of the Dorotheus text that we have today does make that one reference, but we're not sure if it's just an error in the received Arabic text which is like three times removed from its original language.

我们知道，至少有一位后来的占星家，比如八世纪的提奥菲勒斯，曾接触过这个阿拉伯文本并阅读了它，因而他也把土星视为女性行星，因为他认为多罗西厄斯就是这样说的。

We do know that at least one later astrologer, Theophilus in like the eighth century had access to that Arabic text and read it and took that to heart and therefore himself treated Saturn as feminine because he thought Dorotheus did.

但目前尚不清楚多罗西厄斯的原始文本是否真的如此，还是这只是阿拉伯文本流传过程中出现的错误。

But it's not clear if Dorotheus in the original text actually did or if that's just a mistake in the Arabic text that was passed on.

所以我只是想在这里加个注脚，因为这是关于土星的正式专题，说明目前这项研究的基本状况，这可能就是我们能了解到的极限了，不同的人可以根据这些信息得出各自的结论，但这就是我们目前所知的全部。

So I just wanted to footnote that since this is the official Saturn episode and say that's basically the state of that research and that's probably as far as that'll ever go, and different people can draw different conclusions or whatever just based on that, but that's basically as much as we know about that.

是的，我个人觉得从女性视角来看待土星，比如把它想象成祖母而非祖父，非常有意思。

Yeah, I personally find it really great to think about Saturn from a feminine perspective, like a grandmother rather than a grandfather.

另外，每当想到这类问题时，我也会思考：一个人星盘中的土星位于昼相或夜相星座——即女性或男性星座时，会如何影响我们通过祖母式或祖父式的视角来理解土星？

And one thing that I think about when it comes to this kind of thing too is is Saturn in a given person's chart placed in diurnal or nocturnal sign, like a feminine or a masculine sign, and how does that influence access to Saturn through either this grandmotherly lens or a grandfatherly lens?

对我而言，土星位于摩羯座——属于土象星座，也就是土星的夜相或女性化表达。

And for me, Saturn in Capricorn, that's Earth signs, so that's the nocturnal or feminine expression of Saturn.

这也很有趣地打开了一个通道，让人们不必局限于仅用希腊罗马神话来理解行星的象征，而是可以接触其他文化传统中的神话、传说和文化参照。

And it's also then interesting to think about how that opens up the doorway for people who maybe don't want to only refer to Greco Roman mythology as the planets have been named for, but want access to other traditions in terms of myths and legends and cultural touchstones.

将土星视为女性化，确实打开了许多关于这种联系的可能性，比如凯尔特地区中的卡莉亚克，或者许多将土星与业力概念联系起来的人，也会将土星与女神迦梨联系起来——这或许在文化上并不完全准确，但在象征意义和意义建构上确实存在明显的重叠。

To think about Saturn as feminine really opens up a lot of possibilities in terms of that kind of connection, so the Kaliak from Celtic lands, or a lot of people who will relate Saturn to the concept of karma will also relate Saturn to the deity Kali may or may not be culturally accurate, but there are definitely overlaps in terms of significations and meaning making that is available there.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为我和里克在天王星那一集中曾就这个问题进行过长时间的讨论，因为当时我觉得，对于天文学家来说，神话似乎并不是他们理解天王星和海王星这些新行星象征意义的主要途径；但到了冥王星，以及最近的小行星等天体时，神话的重要性却越来越突出。

And I think Rick and I had a long discussion about this in the Uranus episode because there was an issue where it didn't seem like to me that mythology was the primary access point for the astrologers understanding the significations of the new planets when it came to Uranus and Neptune, and then it increasingly started becoming more and more important when you come to Pluto and then recently the asteroids and things like that.

但历史上有趣的是，这在一定程度上源于一种假设，即神话一直就是主要的切入点。

But historically, it was interesting because it's partially due to the presumption that that's always been the case.

神话始终是主要的入口。

The mythology has always been the primary access point.

因此，现在仍存在一个持续的问题：对于新发现的天体，神话是否应该成为主要的切入点？还是我们应该通过实证视角，或某种其他概念性方法来理解它们？

And so there's like an ongoing question about whether mythology now if there's newly discovered bodies should be the primary access point or if we should be accessing it somehow through an empirical lens or some sort of like some other conceptual approach or what have you.

自从那期节目以来，我想到一个非常有趣的事情：与现代不同的是，在现代，外行星的命名是由天文学家完成的。

One thing I have thought of since that episode that's really interesting is that's different compared to the modern times is that in modern times, the outer planets have been named by astronomers.

虽然有时他们给这些命名赋予了一些有趣的小理由或动机，但很多时候其实并没有特别的原因。

While sometimes they have cute little reasons for that or there's little motivations that are kind of interesting, much of the time there's not necessarily.

这实际上与古代行星不同，因为希腊占星家——至少在西方传统中——曾经有一个时期，行星尚未被赋予神的名字，希腊人用不同的描述性名称来称呼这些行星，即‘流浪的星星’。但后来在希腊传统中，有人注意到美索不达米亚传统中行星所关联的神祇，并据此在希腊传统中选取对应的神祇来为行星命名。

And that's actually different compared to the ancient planets because the Greek astrologers, at least let's just say limited to the Western tradition, there was a point before when the planets had not been attributed names of the gods and the Greeks referred to them with different descriptive names for the planets, the wandering stars, but there was a specific point in time where somebody in the Greek tradition saw what gods they were associated with in the Mesopotamian tradition and then named the planets after that by picking the corresponding deity that corresponded to that in the Greek tradition.

我认为当时人们更有意识地去寻找正确的对应神祇。

So there was more of a deliberateness I think at that point to find the correct corresponding God.

我认为这正是我们在现代遇到问题的原因，比如天王星：它的命名并非出于刻意的神话或概念考量，而这或许正是为什么有些占星家，比如理查德·塔纳斯，认为普罗米修斯神话比天王星本身的神话更能准确体现天王星在占星学中的意义。

And I think that's why we start running into issues in modern times like with Uranus where it wasn't done necessarily deliberately or for mythological or conceptual reasons, but that might be why there's some disconnect sometimes with astrologers like Richard Tarnas who argue that the Prometheus myth is a better representation of what Uranus actually signifies in astrology than the Uranus myth is, for example.

是的，没错，完全同意。

Yeah, yeah, no, totally.

这很有道理。

That makes a lot of sense.

我还没听完整个天王星那一集，但我记得听过那一部分。

I haven't listened to the entirety of the Uranus episode yet, but I remember I was listening to that section.

我在想，看待神祇的一种有趣方式，是将它们视为原型象征或原型表达的集合点。

And I was thinking that it is really interesting considering role of way to think about deities is their collection points for archetypal symbology or archetypal expression.

如果我们认为原型可能在被注意或表达方面具有某种程度的能动性，我认为这种观点并不完全适用于天王星和海王星。

If we can think about archetypes as potentially having some level of agency in terms of getting noticed or expressed, I don't think that operates entirely well for Uranus and Neptune.

我认为对冥王星来说，这在一定程度上是可行的。

I think it's somewhat functional for Pluto.

在我自己关于小行星的研究中，它也是部分相关的，对吧？

And in my own research when it comes to the asteroids, it's partially relevant, right?

它并非在所有时候都100%适用。

It's not 100% all of the time.

但有意思的是，去思考做那种有意识的工作，也许就像那位希腊占星家，他研究了美索不达米亚对行星的命名，然后想，哦，如果我们用自己的神来对应会怎样？

But it is interesting to then think about doing that deliberate work, maybe similar to that Greek astrologer that looked at the Mesopotamian names for the planets and was like, Oh, what if we do it with our gods?

作为一个当代人，要付出这样的努力，比如说观察土星，不仅仅是观察土星这个神话形象，而是观察它在占星学中如何运作，那些征象是什么？

To be doing that effort as a contemporary person, maybe say looking at Saturn, and not just looking at Saturn, the mythological figure, but Saturn as it functions astrologically, what are those significations?

然后将这些与文化参照点联系起来，无论是神祇还是传奇人物。

And then relating that to cultural touchstones, whether those be deities or legendary figures.

我会让我的个别学生做的一件事就是看电视，重看他们最喜欢的电视剧，并识别出与行星对应的角色。

One of the things that I will have my one on one students do is watch TV, rewatch their favorite television show, and identify characters with the planets.

所有这些都是为原型集群寻找名称的不同方式。

All of these are different ways of finding names for archetypal clusters.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

是的，我的意思是，有些电影，甚至一些漫威电影，都在表达一些现代神话般的原型。

Yeah, mean, some movies or even some of the Marvel movies and stuff are expressing archetypes that are some of our modern day myths and things like that.

当有人提到《黑客帝国》中的某些哲学主题时。

When somebody mentions some of the philosophical themes in the matrix, for example.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你知道，我们在谈论深层的原型主题，就像古代人讲述这些神话和故事时那样。

You know, we are talking about deeper level archetypal themes in the same way that you would in ancient times in terms of telling some of these myths and some of these stories.

是的，正是如此。

Yeah, exactly.

正是如此。

Exactly.