塔罗牌与占星术作为占卜形式

是的。

Yes.

当某事物表示积极结果时，这意味着什么？而当某事物表示消极结果时，又会是什么样子？

And what would it mean when something is to indicate a positive outcome versus what would it look like if something was to indicate a negative outcome.

对。

Right.

而且我们有时也会在宫位或相位中看到这种思维方式。

And then we also see that type of thinking sometimes in the houses or in the aspects.

例如，第一宫代表自我或命盘中的你，而第七宫则与之相对，代表他人或命盘中的伴侣等。

For example, the first house representing the self or representing you in the chart versus the seventh house, which is in opposition to that representing the other or representing the partner in the chart or whatever.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

我非常喜欢把这两种牌阵看作是一种对立关系。

I really like thinking of those two cards spreads as as oppositions in a way.

嗯嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯嗯。

Mhmm.

对立相位。

Oppositional aspects.

嗯嗯。

Mhmm.

所以这可能是连接它们的一个点。

So maybe that's something then that does connect it.

我们一个潜在的问题是，占星术在哪些方面与塔罗牌或其他占卜形式相似，又在哪些方面不同？

And and one of our underlying questions is, in what ways is astrology similar to tarot or other forms of divination and versus how is it different?

也许这就是我们最初的切入点之一，因为它们都涉及象征性思维，嗯嗯。

And maybe that's one of our initial entry points and access points is that they both have to do with symbolic thinking and Mhmm.

比如使用类似数字命理学的东西，或者赋予数字组合特定含义，这可以追溯到毕达哥拉斯主义等。

The use of things like, essentially numerology or attributing meaning to numerological, sets or sets of numbers which goes back to Pythagoreanism and things like that.

是的。

Yes.

我的意思是，意义才是核心。

I mean, I think meaning is at the heart of it.

对吧？

Right?

因为我们在占星和塔罗牌中所做的，都是将这些我们认为涵盖世间万物的系统，通过数字进行划分——比如塔罗牌分为78张，同时也分为四元素系统或十二宫系统（如果使用对应关系）；而在占星中，有七颗传统行星、十二宫位、四个 quadrant，以及四个元素等等。

Because what we do both in astrology and in tarot is we take these systems which we assume encompass everything in the world, right, and divide it up by number into, well, the case of tarot, into 78, but also into systems of four, or systems of 12 if you use correspondences, and then in astrology, you know, seven traditional planets or 12 houses or whatever it is, four quadrants, and, you know, four elements.

然后，我们的任务就是进行解读。

And and then we and then and then it's our job to interpret.

我们的任务是，在这些与每个部分相关的庞大意义网络中，找出与当前情境相关的信息。

Then it's our job to figure out where in that vast constellation of meaning that goes with each of those segments, however we divide it up, we can draw information that's relevant to the situation.

这很有趣，因为还有什么比数字更普遍的呢？

And that's interesting because what is more universal than number or than numbers?

你总能看到这样的评论，比如如果我们将来与另一个星系的文明接触，或者人类遇到外星生命时，我们该如何沟通？

And you know, you always see those commentaries about like if we were ever to interact with another civilization from another galaxy or something like that, if human humanity ever ran into extraterrestrial life, like, how would we communicate?

这就像卡尔·萨根在《接触》这本书中提到的，后来还被拍成了电影，他们认为数字是贯穿整个宇宙的通用语言，可以作为交流的手段。

And that like, think Carl Sagan, for example, in that book Contact, which is later made into a movie, they tried to say that number would be the universal language that's true throughout the cosmos, and that would be a means of communicating.

但在这个占卜的语境中，数字有其独特的含义，因为数字不仅仅传达数量，还带有质的层面和意义。

So in this context, though, there's a unique spin within the context of divination on number because number doesn't just convey quantity, but also there's like a qualitative component to numbers and the meaning of numbers here.

是的。

Yes.

当然。

Absolutely.

我觉得没错，我自己在一二到十的卡巴拉体系中经常用到，不过我们可能不需要深入讨论这个。

I think that's true, which I use a great deal myself in a sort of one to 10 cabalistic context, which we may not want to get into.

这完全是另一个深奥的话题。

It's a whole another wormhole.

当然。

Sure.

我的意思是，我们可以聊聊这个。

I mean, can get into that.

但我想强调的核心点是，数字2和3未必只是用来计量多少、衡量事物数量的数值；“二元性”本身可能承载着某种普遍意义，或者说原型层面的意义，带有一种贯穿始终的特质属性。

So but but the point there is just that two and three might not just be quantities of having like more or less or having a certain amount in order to measure something and its number in terms of quantity, but also twoness might have some sort of universal meaning or, like, archetypal meaning, some sort of overarching feeling or, like, quality.

同理，“三元性”也可能具备某种超越它所枚举的具体事物的普世意义或普适特质。

And, like, threeness might have some universal meaning or universal quality that transcends, you know, the individual things that it enumerates.

没错。

That's true.

不过在占星术和塔罗牌的解读逻辑里，还有一点我觉得十分重要，那就是解读人本身。

But there's another part of the sort of art of interpretation in both astrology and tarot that I think is important, and that's the interpreter themselves.

因为我觉得，你知道吗，这事其实在《超时空接触》的电影版里就出现过了，真巧你会提到这部作品——任何解读都只能借助解读方自身已有的认知来完成，沟通也是一样。

Because I think that, you know, and this is something that actually came up in the movie version of Contact, funny that you should mention that, that communication can only use interpretation can only use what is inside the interpreter.

对吧？

Right?

所以呢，你看，当朱迪·福斯特饰演的主角去拜访那个外星文明时，那个外星生命体是以她父亲的形象出现的。

So, you know, when Jodie Foster goes to visit the alien culture, whatever it is, it comes as her father.

没错吧？

Right?

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

这是个好观点。

That's a good point.

对。

Yeah.

我认为作为诠释者，我们也是如此。

And I think that that's that's true for us as interpreters as well.

你知道，我们所能使用的语言，仅限于我们所了解的内容。

You know, the language that's available to us is only what we know.

对吧？

Right?

所以，对于那些没看过这部电影的人，当她去拜访外星人时，外星人会进入她的内心，看到她的记忆，然后以她父亲的形象出现，与她交谈，因为他们说这是她熟悉的东西，也是对她来说最不吓人、最不令人不适的方式。

So so it's like just for those that didn't watch the movie, it was like the when she went and visited, the aliens, like, looked inside her mind and, like, saw her memories, and then appeared to her to talk to her as, like, a vision of her father because they said that's what she was familiar with, and that would be the less frightening or, like, off putting thing for her.

所以，这正是你观点的一部分。

And so that's that's part of your point.

它就像那样，同样的东西对不同的人可能呈现出不同的样子，取决于他们的背景或其他因素。

It's just like what the that is can appear different to different people based on what their their context is or something like that.

对。

Right.

这就是对应关系发挥作用的地方。

And this is where correspondences come in.

这就是原型发挥作用的地方。

This is where the the archetypes come in.

这就是我们在解读中所获得的，是那一刻的特质。

This is where, you know, what we get in interpretation is the quality of the moment.

它不是一个具体的例子，比如你抽到塔牌，就一定意味着车祸，或者火星相位之类的，它并不总是意味着那些，而是意味着具有那种特质的事物。我认为，作为占卜者，我们的部分工作就是对那一刻特质可能涵盖的整个谱系保持开放，然后将其转化为对当前情境有用的内容。

It's not a specific example, you know, it's not like you get the tower, it's always gonna mean a car crash, or you know, a Mars square or whatever, it's not always going to mean that, it's going to mean something that has that quality, and, you know, I think part of what our job is as diviners is to, be open to the entire, spectrum of what that quality of that moment might be, and then to be able to translate that into something that's useful for the context.

我认为杰弗里·科尼利厄斯在你和他的对话中提到过，将占卜实践以某种方式视为因果关系的危险在于，你会失去对背景的把握。

And one of the things that I think Geoffrey Cornelius said in your talk with him is that the danger of viewing, divinatory practices causal in some ways, that you lose the context.

你会失去这样一个观念：占卜必须适用于当前的情境，意义源于求问者与神谕之间、以及解决该情境之需求之间的互动，而不是像食谱一样，意义独立于情境之外，你只需翻查就能得出答案，说‘好吧’。

You lose the idea that it has to apply to the situation at hand, and that the meaning arises out of the relationship between the querent and the oracle, and the need to solve the situation, rather than meaning standing outside of it like a cookbook that you can just look it up, and you'll say, okay.

嗯，你抽到了塔牌。

Well, you you drew the tower.

你最好去检查一下刹车什么的。

You'd better just, you know, get your get your brakes checked or something.

你知道的。

You know?

对。

Right.

所以，你所说的部分原因在于，占卜形式和象征符号的一个问题在于，它们处理并透过原型来表达，正如理查德·塔纳斯在《宇宙与心灵》中所说，占星术是原型性的预言。

Maybe so part of it then and part of what you're saying is it goes back to one of the issues with forms of divination and using symbolism is that they deal in and they speak through archetypes, and they are archetype As Richard Tarnas likes to say in Cosmos and Psyche likes to say that astrology is archetypally predictive.

当你处理这些事物时，你并不是在处理直接的对应关系，而是在处理某种超越性的东西——也许我得深入谈谈原型的超越性。

And that when you're dealing with these things, you're not dealing with a direct correspondence, you're dealing with something that is trans Well, maybe I have to go there in terms of archetypes being transcendent.

你能定义一下，什么是原型吗？

Just maybe could you define like, how do you define what an archetype is?

天啊。

Oh, god.

克里斯，你这话太刻薄了。

Chris, that's mean.

把我放在那个‘是的’上面。

Putting putting me on the yeah.

实际上，我以前做过这个，每次这么做都会变成十五分钟的谈话，我们

Actually, I've done this before, and then it turns into this fifteen minute thing each time I've done that where we

是的。

Yeah.

我不确定自己是否愿意这么做，但我可以告诉你的是，与其试图定义原型，不如

I I don't know if I feel comfortable doing that, but what I can tell you here, let me let me instead of trying to define archetype

如果你愿意，我们可以用柏拉图经典的树的例子，或者类似的东西来说明

If you want, we just use the classical Plato example of a tree or something like that for

那些都不太合适。

those That's that aren't fine.

我们可以这么做。

We can do that.

但我想在你和柏拉图聊完之后，说明一下我所指的内容。

But I do wanna illustrate what I'm talking about when you're done talking to Plato.

好的。

Okay.

你刚才说的某件事让我想起了‘原型’这个概念，也许对于还没接触过这个概念的人来说，既然我们是从零开始构建的，不妨解释一下。

Just one of the things you were saying was just reminding me of the concept of archetype and just maybe for somebody that hasn't been exposed to that concept yet since we're sort of sort of building things up from square one.

也就是说，存在某种 overarching 的理念，能够涵盖该理念的所有不同变体，并以象征性的方式代表它。

Just the idea that there can be the idea of something that is like an umbrella idea that covers all of the multiple variations of that idea and can represent it symbolically.

比如，可能存在一个‘树’的原型，这是一种超越性的树的概念，但现实中却有成千上万种具体的树，比如松树、棕榈树、圣诞树等等。

So there might be the archetype of a tree, which is some transcendent type or transcendent idea of a tree, but then there's like thousands of different variations of like a pine tree, a palm tree, a Christmas tree, so on and so forth.

但仍然存在一个 overarching 的统摄性概念，这就是我们所说的‘原型’。

But there can still be this like, overarching umbrella concept, which is what we consider or refer to as, like, an archetype.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

所以，你知道，这里有一个假设，即存在某种 overarching 的感受或形态，我们称之为原型，但它的表现方式却极其多样且具体。我认为，如果你在解读塔罗牌时，可以从许多层面去理解，而这些层面有时会同时生效。

So so so that's you know, there's there 's an assumption that there's some overarching feeling that you can get to, some overarching shape that we call an archetype, but but the way that it can manifest is so wildly various and so specific, and I think one way of looking at it, like if you are interpreting a tarot card, there are many, many levels that you can interpret it on, and sometimes all of them are in effect.

我用来思考解读塔罗牌方式的模型，倾向于使用经文释义。

And the the model I like to use to think about what interpreting a tarot card is like, I tend to use, scriptural exegesis.

比如，在基督教神秘主义中有一种叫 'lectio divina' 的概念，你首先从最表层开始。

So, you know, so there's the concept of, in Christian esotericism of lectio divina, where you kind of like start at the, most surface level.

你阅读，然后冥想，接着祈祷，最后沉思，直到你与上帝建立起一种关系。

You read, and then you meditate it, and then you pray upon it, and then you contemplate it until you have this relationship between you and God.

犹太教中也有类似的概念，叫 'pardes'，包括 peshat、remes、deresh，即从简单的字面解释，到隐含的解释，再到中世纪的寓意比较解释，最终是只有你和上帝才知道的隐秘层面。

There's something similar in Judaism called pardes, which is peshat, remes, deresh, so where you go from kind of the simple interpretation to the one that's hinted to, to the one that's like the Midrashic comparative interpretation, and then finally, again, the secret one that's known only to you and God.

《古兰经》的解读也有类似的做法。

There's something similar with the Koran.

中世纪的寓言式解读也是如此，但这就是我解读塔罗牌的方式。

There's something similar with allegorical reading in the Middle Ages, but I you know, that's the way I go about looking at a tarot card.

你明白吗？

You know?

比如，这是著名的五角星五，如果能在屏幕上展示出来可能会很有趣，你可以调出来看看。

So for example, this is the infamous five of pentacles, which might be fun to have on screen actually, if you want to pull that up.

是的。

Yeah.

让我看看能不能找到，哦，找到了。

Let me see if I can find the here it is.

五角星五。

D o five.

对于视频观众来说，这个看起来对吗？

So for the video viewers, does this look like the right one?

嗯。

Mhmm.

好的。

Okay.

所以这里

So here's

五芒星

the Five Pentacles

莱德-韦特-史密斯塔罗牌中的五芒星。

Five of Pentacles from the Rider Waite Smith tarot deck.

是的。

Yes.

那张永远乐观的五芒星。

The relentlessly cheerful Five of Pentacles.

所以，从最表面的层次来看，我知道这张牌意味着下雪。

So so, at the at the most surface level, you know, I have seen this card mean snow.

对吧？

Right?

那它代表什么？

And what is it?

对于只听音频的听众来说，我们到底在看什么，或者

For those just listening to the audio, like, what are we looking at, or what does

意味着什么？

it mean?

我们正在看的是。

We are looking at right.

我们看到的是一幕教堂外的景象，看起来像是一座带有彩色玻璃窗的教堂，窗户上有五个星币图案，教堂前有两位乞丐，我想这是韦特对他们的描述，其中一位是残疾的。

So we're looking at a scene outside a church, what appears to be a church with a stained glass window with five, pentacle shapes on it, and in front of it are two mendicants, I guess that's how Waite describes them, one of them one of whom is crippled.

他们拄着拐杖。

They're walking on crutches.

他们衣衫褴褛。

They're ragged.

他们很贫穷，正在雪地中行走。

They're poor, and they're walking through the snow.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而且可能正在下雪。

And it's probably snowing.

你可以说这是教堂表面的纹理，但很可能正在下雪。

You could say that's a texture on the church, but it's probably snowing.

有趣的是，这确实是莱德-韦特-史密斯塔罗牌中唯一一张有雪的牌。

And it is, in fact, the only card in the Rider Waite Smith deck that has snow on it, interestingly enough.

好的。

Okay.

所以，是的。

So so, yeah.

我确实见过这张牌代表雪的意思。

So I've actually seen this mean snow.

你知道吗？

You know?

我也见过它更字面地表示损失，尤其是财务上的损失。

I've seen it more literally meaning a loss, a financial loss also.

你可以稍微理解一下。

You can kind of see that.

是的。

Yeah.

这两个人看起来很困苦，一个拄着拐杖，另一个穿着破旧的衣服，他们

It's like the two figures look beleaguered, and one of them's on crutches, and the other one is covered in somewhat tattered clothes, they're

光着脚走在雪地里。

kind of bare feet in the snow.

对吧？

Right?

所以这些人显然处于某种困境之中。

So these are these are clearly people who are in some some form of need.

我见过它象征被拒之门外的意思，你知道吗？那他们为什么不在教堂里呢？

I've seen it mean, being locked out, you know, so why aren't they inside the church?

他们为什么在外面？

Why are they outside of it?

所以他们可能是被锁在了外面，也可能是根本没想到要去敲门。

So they might be locked out, or, it could be that they haven't thought to knock.

然后，这可以说是第一层含义，但再往深了想，这在现实生活中到底意味着什么？

And then, that's sort of like the first level, but then beyond that, you know, what does that really mean in real life?

我曾经遇到过这种情况，比如汽车保养、车辆故障，或者各种技术问题。

Well, I've had that mean car maintenance, car problems, things going wrong with technical things.

我也经历过丢钱包，比如说这种情况。

I've had it as losing losing my wallet, you know, for example.

我还见过它体现在听关于囚犯的播客上，这一点你也能看出来。

I've had it as listening to podcasts about prisoners, which you can kind of see as well.

我见过它代表家庭分离政策。

I've seen it represent the family separation policy.

我见过它代表我们刚开始封锁时的情景。

I've seen it represent, the lockdown as we began the lockdown.

我还见过它，有趣的是，与之相关的一些对应关系，那是金牛座的第三十度，根据迦勒底体系，由水星掌管。

I've seen it and then interestingly, you know, some of the some of the correspondences that go with it, that's that's the Taurus one Decan, which is ruled in the Chaldean system by Mercury.

是的？

Yeah?

所以，那位Decan注释者说，它象征着播种与耕作、种植种子、几何这类事物。

So so and it's, the what the Decan commentator said about it was that it was a face of sowing and plowing, of planting seeds, geometry, those kinds of things.

我不记得这个说法是出自《Picatrix》、《阿格里帕》还是别的哪里，但在塔罗牌中，我们称它为‘忧虑之主’。

I can't remember whether that's from Picatrix or Agrippa or what, but in tarot, we call it the lord of worry.

所以，在我看来，这些概念之间是有联系的。

So to me, there's a connection between those concepts.

这种想法是：你必须思考、必须提前规划、必须预判、必须以某种水星式的方式有条理地担忧可能出错的事情，同时精确地丈量土地，安排种子的种植位置，以期日后获得成功——这正是六号金币牌，它被称为‘成功’。

The idea that you have to think about, you have to plan ahead, you have to anticipate, you have to worry about what could possibly go wrong, in a somewhat mercurial way, organized, and, you know, and measuring out the land, where you're gonna plant the seeds in order to, achieve success later, is the six of, pentacles, which is known as success.

而且，在我看来，这个牌面背后的理念非常美好：这张看似阴暗而艰难的牌，其实也关乎你所付出的关怀，你为确保事情顺利而付出的细致用心。

And, you know, and to me, there's something really beautiful about the idea that that card, which is not just that card which looks so dark and so difficult, is also about the cares that you take, the painstaking care you take to make sure that things go well.

所以，它不仅仅关乎伤害、贫穷、悲惨和必需，更关乎你愿意为所爱之事付出什么——比如种植庄稼之类的事情。

So it's not just about injury and poverty, misery and necessity, it's about what you are willing to do for the things that you love, in this case, maybe growing a crop or, something like that.

另一个非常有趣的地方是，我认为它提醒我们，每个人在某种程度上都要面对不确定性。

And another thing that's really interesting about it, is that I think it is a reminder that we all deal with uncertainty at some level.

对吧？

Right?

你知道的吧？

You know?

而且无论如何，我们都必须继续前行，所以我称这张牌为神圣的怀疑，因为不了解未来会发生什么是我们的本性，但我们仍必须站起来直面它。

And that, and that no matter what, we still have to go on, and so I call this card sacred doubt because it's part of our nature not to know what's going to happen, and yet we have to stand up and face it anyway.

近年来，对我来说发生了一件事：这张牌以我最初无法理解的方式出现，这就像那种基础层面的意义——你一开始不明白它为何以这种方式出现，但正是这种 obsessively 跟踪结果的优势，让我发现它与仪式魔法和仪式有关。

Now, one thing that's happened in more recent years for me is that, this card has come up in ways I couldn't quite understand, and this is sort of like that base level of meaning where you don't understand at first why it's showing up this way, but this is the advantage of, obsessively tracking your results, which is that it's come up as ceremonial magic and ritual for me.

起初我完全不明白为什么会这样，但多年来，我逐渐意识到，这里存在一个意义的交汇点，与规划密切相关——而规划是仪式魔法中极其重要的一部分，就像我们之前讨论的德坎注释中提到的那样，涉及计划、忧虑和铺垫基础，同时也关乎怀疑，即神圣的怀疑，而魔法行为本身正是对抗怀疑的一种方式。

And at first, I had no idea why that might be, but over the years, there's something about, you know, the amount of there's there's a nexus of meaning here that has to do with the planning, first of all, which is a huge part of ceremonial magic, you know, the planning and worry and sort of like laying out the groundwork, like we were talking about with the Decan commentaries, but also about that relationship with doubt, right, with sacred doubt, with the magical act as a way of counteracting doubt.

从某种意义上说，忧虑——这张牌的赫尔墨斯称号——恰恰是意义建构的对立面。

And because in some ways you can say worry, which is again the hermetic title of this card, is the opposite of meaning making.

它与你在魔法行为中试图达成的目标背道而驰。

It's the opposite of what you're trying to do in a magical act.

所以，这张牌本身就蕴含着某种深意，而它与仪式魔法相关的另一个原因，是当你结合与它相关的那两张主要阿卡纳牌时。

So, you know, so there's something about that card, and the other the other reason why it has to do with ceremonial magic is if you take those two, the the those two major Arcana that are associated with it.

我们之前说过，它与金星在金牛座的第一位有关。

So we said that it relates to Mercury in Taurus one.

对吧？

Right?

在塔罗牌中，水星由魔术师代表，金牛座由教皇代表。

So Mercury is represented in tarot by the magician, and Taurus is represented by the Hierophant.

所以，如果你把魔术师和教皇这两个人物形象结合起来，就会看到非常像仪式魔法的东西。

So if you take those kind of two images of the magician and the hierophant, get something that looks very much like ceremonial magic.

好的。

Okay.

但花了我很长时间才明白它为什么会以这种方式出现，塔罗牌就是这样。

So, you know, but it just took me a long time to figure out why it was coming up that way, and tarot's like that.

它很简洁。

It's it's economical.

它只是直接暗示你该从中领悟什么，最终你会明白其中的原因。

It just sort of telegraphs what it wants you to get out of it, and eventually, you figure out why.

好的。

Okay.

所以我在这里听到了很多内容，我觉得刚才那个例子和演示非常好，展示了人们如何解读塔罗牌，以及如何尝试理解其中的象征意义——那里可能存在着某种潜在的数字或数理象征，但更重要的是，你正在解读图像的象征，甚至那些看似微不足道的细节，其实都旨在唤起更深层的情感与含义，这些有时对于理解图像背后的总体原型至关重要，因为图像中确实存在某种原型。

So I'm hearing a lot of things here, and I thought that I think that was a really great example and demonstration of how one approaches tarot and the process of trying to understand the symbolism where there is maybe some underlying numerological or number symbolism there, but also a big part of what you're doing is you're interpreting the symbolism of the image and even slight minor details or seemingly minor details if you were to just glance at the image are actually meant to evoke much deeper feelings and meanings that can sometimes be crucially important in understanding, again, like the overarching archetype of the image that there's some sort of archetype there.

但这种象征的呈现方式，就像树的比喻一样，可以具有多重含义。

But the way that that can manifest just like the tree analogy can be very multivalent.

它可以以成千上万种方式呈现。

It can manifest in thousands

完全正确。

Absolutely.

以多种不同的方式，有时甚至同时以多种方式呈现。

Of different And sometimes many different ways simultaneously.

所以在占卜的语境中，你要根据来访者的现状来回应。

So, you know and in the context of a reading, you meet the client where they're at.

对吧？

Right?

我不会对每一个抽到五角星五的客户都说：‘你得去搞仪式魔法。’

I'm not gonna tell every client I get to go do ceremonial magic because they got the five of pentacles.

我可能会告诉他们，下次出门时记得带好钥匙，别把自己锁在外面，但关键是你要根据具体情况和客户的需求，去感受什么才是最有帮助的。

I might tell them to, you know, to to make sure they have their keys next time they walk out the door so they're not locked out, But, you know, you kind of you kind of look at the situation and what the what the client needs, and you feel your way towards what's useful.

对。

Right.

而且，你还得在你设定的限制框架内来解读，比如在塔罗牌中，你用的是哪种牌阵，以及对方想了解的问题是什么？

Well, then and then also, you would take that, and and that has to manifest itself within the context of the constraints that you put on it, which is, in this instance with tarot, what spread are you doing, and what is the question, or what is the the person approaching trying to find out about?

那我们现在可以假设一个三张牌的牌阵。

So maybe we could do like a hypothetical one of like a three card spread right now.

好的。

Sure.

当然可以。

Sure.

我们可以这么做。

We can do that.

然后你如何解读它呢？我们就在这个语境下假设一下。

And like how you would then interpret that, let's just say hypothetically or or within this context.

嗯。

Mhmm.

好的。

Sure.

你想了解什么方面？

What would you like to read about?

我不知道。

I don't I don't know.

我本来没想好问题，现在突然有点紧张，不知道该问什么，或者会显示出什么。

I I guess I need I didn't have a question in mind, and I'm now suddenly nervous about what to ask or what it might show,

但如果你愿意，我们可以先回到这一点。

but let's just back to it if you like.

好的。

Sure.

我是不是得先明确一个问题才能

Should I because I need a question specifically in order to

我跟所有人都是这么说的，你知道的，具体的问题才能得到具体的答案。

Well, this is what I tell people, you know, specific questions get specific answers.

明白了。

Got it.

而模糊的问题通常没法给你带来多少有用的信息。

Whereas nonspecific questions aren't necessarily gonna tell you much.

对的。

Right.

我的意思是，事实上我确实相信，有些解读塔罗牌的人比我更有通灵能力，他们一开始不需要提出问题也能进行解读。

I mean and the thing is that I I do believe that there are readers who are maybe a little bit more mediumistic than I am who don't need a question to start with.

但总的来说，我发现如果能提前准备一个问题，大家能得到更准确的解读结果。

But in general, I find that people get the best results if there's a question.

这说得通。

That makes sense.

我刚才大概是在想，如果牌阵是过去、现在、未来的布局，那你之前提到的那张牌，如果它出现在第一个位置，就代表你过往的经历——也就是那段让你焦头烂额的过往，你正是从那段过去走到了当下；或者它代表过去发生的一些事。如果它出现在中间的位置，就代表当事人当前的处境；如果出现在第三个位置，就代表他们未来的走向。

I guess I was just thinking in terms of if there was a past, present, future thing, you would then maybe in the last card you were talking about, if that fell in the first place, then you would say that is what you're coming from and that is the past, maybe somewhat like beleaguered past that you're approaching the present from, or that is representing some events that happened in the past versus if it was in the middle place, it would represent where they are at now versus if it was in the third place, it would represent where they're headed in the future.

对。

Right.

这确实引出了一个问题：当你抽到一张这样的未来牌时，你会怎么做？

And that does raise, you know, the issue of what do you do when you get a card like that in the future.

对吧？

Right?

你知道，就是那种至少表面上看起来相当阴暗的牌。

You know, one that looks, at least on the surface of things, pretty dark.

对于这个问题，有几个答案。

So there's a couple of answers to that question.

首先，你要运用你对这张牌的所有了解，因为我相信每张牌都有其解读范围，没有什么牌是真正黑暗到完全找不到积极意义的，比如十把剑——那个背朝上、胸前插着十把剑的人，即便那张牌也有其可取之处。

You know, first of all, you draw on everything you know about that card about because I believe that every card has a range of interpretation that is nothing is so dark that, you know, there isn't something you can find in it, even the 10 of swords, which is the guy lying on his back, on his on his front with 10 swords in his back, you know, there is even that card has something to recommend it.

所以，你会用尽所有知识去寻找其中有益或积极的信息；但同时，我解读时会尽量避免暗示事情是命中注定的。

So, you know, so you're using everything you have to find what the message is that's helpful or positive, but also, the way I read, I tend not to I try very hard not to telegraph that things are written in stone.

我会明确告诉对方，有些事情可以改变，有些则不能，而塔罗牌可以帮助我们认清这些。

I try to make it clear that there are things you can change, and things you can't change, and that we can use tarot to get at them.

所以我从不喜欢，你知道的，在塔罗占卜中那种倾向——有时来自占卜师，有时来自客户——就是放弃自己的能动性，说‘反正这就是会发生的事，我既不想知道，也不想面对，但我无能为力’。

So I never like, you know, because tendency in a tarot reading, and it sometimes comes from the reader and sometimes from the client, is to kind of give up that sense of agency, and say, well, this is just gonna happen, and I don't really wanna I either wanna know, or I don't wanna know, but there's nothing I can do about it.

我会直接用牌来说：好吧，这张牌代表的是你可以采取的行动。

And I will literally use the cards and say, okay, this card represents what you can do about it.

对吧？

Right?

而这张牌代表的是你无法改变的部分。

And this card represents what you can't change.

所以，总有一种方式能让你为所占卜的人留下一种赋权的感觉。

So there's always some way that you can leave your the person you're reading for on a sort of empowering note.

好的。

Okay.

当然，有些牌基本上就算你用在‘你可以做什么’的情境下，也会告诉你：其实你什么也做不了。

Of course, there are some cards that basically say, even if you use them in the what you can do about it scenario, sometimes they say, well, you can't do anything about it.

是的。

Yeah.

比如说，死亡牌其实并不是最糟糕或最具问题的牌，这不就是经典的说法之一吗？

Isn't one of the classic things that I guess, like, the the death card, for example, is not actually the worst or most problematic card.

这是真的吗？

Is that true?

这是

Is that

哦，不是的。

Oh, no.

不是。

No.

不是。

No.

是的。

Yeah.

那个，有那个‘不’。

There's the there's the no.

不。

No.

人们传统上把死亡牌解读为转变、变化之类的。

People classically read death as, you know, transformation or change or whatever.

你看过那个《辛普森一家》的片段吗？

Have you ever seen that that Simpson skit?

是的。

Yeah.

我想到的正是这个，部分是这样。

That's what I was thinking of, partially.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我之前做过一个，你还记得吗？几年前网上流行一个梗，人们会把那部关于希特勒的电影《帝国的毁灭》重新配音。

I did a I did a do you remember do you remember some years back, there was a a meme going around where people would take the hit the movie about Hitler called Downfall, and they would, like, re retitle it.

对。

Right.

所以我在《快乐松鼠》上做了一个完整的相关内容，那个就是那个《辛普森一家》小品的基础，莉萨得到了一只快乐松鼠，而算命师说：哦，不。

So I did a whole thing on that on The Happy Squirrel, is the basis of that Simpsons skit, where Lisa gets a happy squirrel, and the Fortune teller's like, oh, no.

不管怎样，我做了一个关于希特勒得到快乐松鼠的完整内容，那整个下午都很有趣。

Anyway, I got I did a I did a whole thing on Hitler gets the happy squirrel, and that was great for an afternoon.

我喜欢这个。

I like that.

我稍后发给你。

I'll send it to you later.

让我看看。

So let me see.

我想把话题重新聚焦到我们现在所处的位置，也就是我们刚开始理解如何。

I wanted to recenter this about where we're at now, which is just like we've started to understand how.

其中一个重点是，对你来说，你的许多作品，尤其是你最近出版的这两本书，都聚焦在塔罗牌上，你似乎非常致力于通过理解来自不同源头的重叠象征，来探寻和理解牌面的核心含义。

So one of the things is that for you, and it seems like a lot of your work has been focused on especially with these last two books that you've published, on tarot, you seem to be very much focused on getting to and understanding the core meanings of the cards by understanding the overlapping symbolism that's coming from different places.

这些符号有时来自数字命理学，有时还有从十度区间引入的占星学象征符号，或许我们稍后可以聊聊这个话题，以及这些关联具体是什么。

And sometimes that's numerological, and other times there's astrological symbolism that's brought in from the decans, and maybe we can introduce that in a second and and what those correlations are.

但基本上，你始终专注于深入挖掘、梳理并清晰阐释这些来自不同视角的符号是如何发挥作用的。

But basically, you're you're really focused on on narrowing in on and and defining and articulating all of the different ways that the symbolism is coming into play from different angles.

对的。

Yes.

你会用“深入挖掘”这个词还挺有意思的。

That's interesting that you use the phrase narrowing in on.

在我看来，我是在尽可能拓宽视角，试着理清要如何调和这些相互矛盾的体系。而且我觉得奥斯汀在《三十六面》里把这点处理得特别好——哦抱歉，刚才说错书名了，是《三十六面》不是《三十六秘》。

From my point of view, it's expanding as much as possible to to sort of try and figure out how you reconcile these kind of conflicting systems, and it's something that, you know, I think Austin does beautifully in 36 Secrets, you know, I'm I'm sorry, 36 Faces.

抱歉啊奥斯汀。

Sorry, Austin.

在那本书里，你要处理的十度分区（Decan）相关意象和象征意涵千差万别，还得试着把它们调和起来，而这也正是我在做的事。

Where, you know, you're you're dealing with Decan images and significations that are wildly various, and trying to reconcile them, and, you know, and that's what I do too.

我一直努力探寻，哪怕所有和这张牌相关的意象都像万花筒里的棱镜碎片一样纷乱矛盾，是否也能从中找到一个共通的核心主题。

I I really try to figure out if there's some common theme that is that you can get to despite or within or through all of these different conflicting prismatic kaleidoscopic images that all have to do with this one card.

对。

Right.

让我想想一个例子。

Like, I'm trying to think of an example.

我这里有你的书《塔罗牌对应关系：给日常读者的古老秘密》，其中有一例是你提到的‘倒吊人’，你指出它与罗马数字12、阿拉伯数字12、黄道符号、以及向下的三角形相关，这个三角形是

So I've got your book, Tarot Correspondences Ancient Secrets for Everyday Readers, and it looks like one of them you have like The Hanged Man, for example, and you say that that's associated with, because it's like a table, the Roman numeral 12, the Arabic number 12, zodiacal glyph, downward pointed triangle, which is

水。

Water.

水元素。

Water element.

好的。

Okay.

元素中的水。

Elemental water.

嗯。

Mhmm.

动物比如鹰、蛇、蝎子、鱼、水、飞禽、海豚、植物、莲花、灰烬，所有水生植物，如柳树、洋甘菊，还有不同的香料和熏香等等。

The animal, say the eagle, snake, scorpion, fish, water, fowl, dolphin, plant, lotus, ash, all water plants, willow, comfrey, and then different perfumes and incense, and so on and so forth.

因此，每张牌都有多种不同的象征关联，你可以通过这些关联来理解每张牌背后的深层含义。

So there's like multiple different symbolic connections between each card that you can look to in order to understand the meaning underlying each card.

是的。

Yes.

这张牌特别有趣，因为自从我写了《塔罗对应》之后，我做了一整套将四大元素故事映射到塔罗牌上的研究，而吊人牌本身对我来说就是水的故事的象征。

And that card in particular is very interesting because in the years since I wrote tarot correspondences, I've done this sort of like, whole mapping of four elemental stories onto tarot, and the hanged man himself represents the story of water to me.

所以，我认为水的故事与牺牲和顺从有关，我经常用奥丁的原型来说明——他倒吊在树上九天九夜，只为换取米米尔井中的秘密。

So, you know, I think of stories of water as having to do with, sacrifice and surrender, and, you know, I often use the archetype of Odin to hanging on the tree upside down for nine days and nine nights in order to get the secrets of Mimir at the well.

实际上，是符文的秘密。

So the secrets of the runes, actually.

我把两个不同的神话混在一起了。

I'm conflating two different myths.

但不管怎样，你知道，你可以把这些内容进一步分解为水象的三个主要星座：巨蟹座的战车、天蝎座的死神牌、双鱼座的月亮牌，你可以把它们看作是牺牲与顺从故事中的三个阶段：战车代表追寻，天蝎或死神牌代表牺牲的交换，而双鱼或月亮牌则代表在这场交易之后获得的意识转变。

But anyway, so, you know, I mean, and there's something in there that you can then break down into the three zodiacal majors of water, you know, Cancer, the chariot, Scorpio, the death card, Pisces, the moon, and you can kind of look at that as, the chariot representing the quest part of that story of sacrifice and surrender, the Scorpio or death card as representing the transaction of sacrifice, and the Pisces or moon card as representing the altered consciousness that you get on the other side of that deal.

不过话说回来，倒悬人是我最喜欢的牌之一

So but, yeah, the hanged man's one of my favorites

好的。

Okay.

就是因为这个原因。

For that reason.

对。

Yeah.

所以说到对应关系，你在之前的著作里花了大量篇幅探讨的一类对应——这也是它和占星学产生直接技术层面重叠的地方——是有一套沿用了大概一千五到两千年的体系，会把传统的36个十度区间以及这些区间各自对应的行星守护星，和特定的塔罗牌关联起来。

And so, in terms of correspondences, one of the correspondences that you focused on a lot in your past book, and this is where the some of the direct technical overlap with astrology comes in, is that, there's a system of using the traditional 36 decans and the planetary rulers for those decans that have been used for the past, like, fifteen hundred or or two thousand years and assigning them to certain specific tarot cards.

完全没错。

Exactly.

完全没错。

Exactly.

这其实是件很特别的事，因为塔罗牌里和占星学的重叠内容本身就有其独特性。

And it's a it's a weird thing because the, you know, the astrological overlaps in tarot are idiosyncratic.

对吧？

Right?

因为我们有三十六分度，但真的没有人去研究界限或三合区。

Because we have decans, but we don't really have anybody dealing with, bounds or triplicities, really.

这是一种奇怪的分配体系，显然以数字为基础，因为黄金黎明组织意识到：我们有这36个分度，该怎么把它对应到塔罗牌上呢？

It's a weird system of assignments, and it's obviously number driven, Because they the Golden Dawn recognized, okay, we have these the system of 36, how can we how can we superimpose it on on the cards in some way?

我们 actually 来谈谈这个吧，因为我本来就想详细讲讲莱德-韦特牌的历史和起源，还有黄金黎明组织的历史。

Let's talk about that actually, because I meant to expand on both the history and origins of the writer weight deck, but also the the history of the Golden Dawn.

那么，黄金黎明组织到底是什么？它存在于什么时间段？

So what was the Golden Dawn group, and what was the time frame on that?

实际上，存在时间非常短。

Remarkably short, actually.

我们说的是二十世纪初，你知道，他们其实没维持多久，就几年而已。但这个秘密社团的一个分支——它本质上是一个英国的启蒙式社团——决定探索各种神秘学路径，比如占星术、卡巴拉、易经等等，以他们自己的方式。

We're talking about the very beginning the the very beginning years of the twentieth century, and, you know, they actually didn't really hold together for for more than a few years, but one of the offshoots of that secret society, which was an it was basically an English initiatic society, where they, decided to explore many different occult avenues, esoteric avenues, know, astrology, kabbalah, I Ching, all sorts of different things in their own way.

最终，亚瑟·爱德华·韦特和帕梅拉·科尔曼·史密斯在1909年底推出了莱德-韦特-史密斯牌组。

And so it was Arthur Edward Waite and Pamela Coleman Smith who came out with the Rider Waite Smith deck at the end of nineteen o nine, I think it was.

真正赋予这套牌生命力的是帕梅拉·科尔曼·史密斯的作品，而她的创作深受亚瑟·爱德华·韦特的影响。

And it was really Pamela Coleman Smith's work that was informed by Arthur Edward Waite.

在小阿卡那牌方面，他甚至没有给她太多指导，但她天赋异禀，而且极具灵性。

He didn't even give her much guidance as far as the minors are concerned, but she was, she was phenomenally gifted and quite psychic as well.

因此，尽管没有证据表明她完全掌握了我们所讨论的黄金黎明体系中的所有对应关系，但这些对应关系确实存在于牌中。

So, so although there is no reason to believe that she had full access to all of the golden dawns correspondences that we talk about, they're in there.

它们依然存在，而且你能够清晰地看到。

They're nevertheless in there, and you can see them.

好的。

Okay.

那么塔罗牌本身，你在最新著作《36个秘密》中提到，塔罗牌可以追溯到十五世纪。

So and the tarot itself, you wrote in your book, in the latest book, 36 Secrets, that tarot goes back to the fifteenth century.

从漫长的历史跨度来看，它实际上是一种相对较新的占卜形式，而占卜的历史可追溯到数千年前，早在公元前2000年、3000年时，人们就已经通过观鸟等方式进行占卜。

It's actually a relatively recent form of divination in the big long term span of things, which goes back over thousands of years back to 2,000, 3,000 BCE, where there were other forms of divination like watching birds

或者内脏占卜。

or Entrails.

我们都喜欢看内脏。

We all love entrails.

是的。

Yeah.

那就是每个人最喜欢的，看着被献祭动物的肝脏之类的。

That's that's everyone's favorite looking at like the liver of a sacrificed animal and that

有点像金牛座脾气暴躁。

sort Taurus pissy.

对。

Yes.

没错。

Right.

那些独特之处可能暗示着不同的含义，之后还有许多其他形式的占卜。

Some of the things that were unique about that could indicate different things and many other different forms of divination after that.

但塔罗牌大约出现在十五世纪，而你在书中顺带提过一件事让我很好奇：我们今天使用的塔罗牌，其当前形式其实只追溯到十八世纪中期左右？

But so tarot shows up around the fifteenth century, but you said something in the book in passing that I was curious about, is that as we use it today, it actually the current form only goes back to the eight mid eighteenth century or something like that?

哦，你指的是对应关系吧。

Oh, the correspondences, you mean.

是那个，好吧。

Is that what Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

这些对应关系实际上只追溯到18世纪中期，当时让·巴蒂斯特·埃利奥特，也就是埃泰亚，开始将卡巴拉、占星术和数字命理学结合起来，并将其叠加到塔罗牌上。

It's the core well, the correspondences only go back to about the mid eighteenth century in the sense that's when, Jean Baptiste Elliott, otherwise known as Eteya, started sort of, you know, putting together Kabbalah, astrology, and numerology, and superimposing it on it, superimposing it on tarot.

但实际上，我们今天使用的现代塔罗牌，尤其是在英语国家，都是基于莱德-韦特-史密斯体系，属于20世纪的建构产物。

But but in fact, the modern tarot that we use, particularly in English speaking countries, is all based on Rider Waite Smith, and is all based on this twentieth century construction.

不过，马赛塔罗牌的历史更悠久，在大陆传统中更为常见，因此你会看到16世纪甚至17世纪的牌组，它们看起来和今天能买到的马赛塔罗牌非常相似。

Now, Tarot de Marseille goes back further, and that's something you see a great deal more in the continental tradition, So, you know, you will see fifteenth sorry, sixteenth century decks, sixteenth century or seventeenth century decks that still look very much like a Marseille deck you could buy today.

但我们在英语国家所看到的传统，以及过去几十年里塔罗牌牌组的蓬勃发展，基本上都是基于莱德-韦特-史密斯和透特牌，也就是黄金黎明体系的牌组。

But, but the tradition that we see here in English speaking countries is, you know, and the and the explosion of tarot decks that we have enjoyed for the last few decades is all based on Rider Waite Smith and Thoth, basically, Golden Dawn based decks.

多年前我收到一份礼物，是另一位占星师兼朋友劳拉·马切特送的塔罗奇牌，这套牌源自15世纪左右，展示了不同的牌面。

So I have I got a gift years ago, which was a tarotchi deck from another astrologer and friend, Laura Machete, and this is from, like, the fifteenth century and shows, like, different cards.

哦，对。

Oh, yeah.

我觉得那是维斯康蒂-斯福尔扎塔罗牌。

That's a Visconti Sforza, I think.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

那我明白了，那这副牌在当时是用来占卜的吗？还是说它最初的用途是什么？

So this is good spec so is this was it used in that context for divination, or what was the original purpose?

是用来玩游戏的。

Gaming.

就是玩牌游戏而已。

Just games.

好的。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，确实有一些推测认为，比如索勒·布斯卡牌组——虽然它并非严格意义上的塔罗牌——可能曾被用于某种深藏不露且颇具神秘色彩的巫术用途。

Well, I mean, there is some there's there's there's some speculation that, for example, the Sole Busca deck, which was, not exactly a tarot deck, had some kind of, you know, deeply buried and interesting sorceress use.

但维斯孔蒂-斯福尔扎牌组是由一个意大利北部贵族家族在15世纪末制作的，这在某种程度上是他们的一种炫耀：我们有能力、有资源，能创造出如此精美的图像，上面还印着我们家族的面容，并设计出一套可用于赢墩游戏的牌组。

But the Visconti Sforza was this project of a noble family, northern Italian family, late fourteen hundreds, and it was really a flex, I think, on their part to some extent, because it's like, you know, we have the ability, we have the resources to create this beautiful set of images with our faces on them, and then to construct a deck that can be used in a trump taking game.

你知道，人们有时会说塔罗牌之所以不那么重要，是因为它起源于游戏传统，但事实上，若回到占卜这一更大主题，我坚信占卜在某种程度上需要一种游戏心态。

You know, and I think, you know, people sometimes say tarot is just is only is less significant because it grew out of a gaming tradition, but actually, you know, to tie it back to the larger theme of divination, I really believe that divination demands a games mindset at some level.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这个观点——这也是荣格所认同的——本质上是赫尔墨斯主义的。

The idea, and this is again something that that Jung subscribed to, is that it's it's fundamentally hermetic.

它是一种墨丘利的工具，而墨丘利本人就是一个诡计多端、热衷游戏的神祇。

It is, you know, it is it is a it is a device of Mercury, and, you know, who himself was a trickster and a games player.

所以，你进行占卜时，就像在玩游戏、在表演一样，但同时又非常认真。

So, you know, you what you do is you engage in divination as if it's a game, as if it's a play, or but earnestly.

所以你要以全部的真诚和认真来参与其中，然后接受发生的一切。

So you enter into it with all earnestness and sincerity, and then you accept whatever happens.

因为我相信，我关于占卜的一个重要信条就是不要害怕。

Because I believe that one of my, you know, one of my great tenets of divination is that it's about not being afraid.

占卜就是关于不要害怕。

Divination is about not being afraid.

所以，就像你以游戏的心态进入一场游戏一样，以同样的心态进行占卜也是有益的。

So, you know, in the same mindset that you might enter a game in a spirit of play, it's beneficial to do so with divination as well.

好的。

Okay.

所以这是有关联的。

And so so it's connected.

它追溯到你提到的游戏，因为从起源上来说，它和扑克之类的普通牌组没什么不同。

It goes back to and you're talking about gaming because it's not unlike, in the terms of its origins, like, a standard set of cards for, like, poker or something like that.

嗯，它们是相关的。

Well, they're related.

它们确实是有关联的。

They are they are related.

对。

Yeah.

我是说，我觉得，你懂的，它们的核心区别其实很突出。

I mean, I think, you know, I mean, the differences are are really in the majors.

你明白吧？

You know?

我的意思是，主要区别在于，我们通常谈论的四种花色——魔杖（抱歉，应该是黑桃、梅花、红心、方块）——这些与塔罗牌的花色是同源的。

I mean, it's like the the main differences are that instead of those suits that you the four suits that we typically talk of, wands sorry, spades and and clubs, and hearts, and diamonds, you know, those are cognate with the tarot suits.

比如黑桃字面意思就是宝剑，圣杯对应红心，而魔杖与方块（或说方块与梅花）的对应关系存在一些争议，这种争议实际上也延伸到了秘传对应体系中。

Spades literally mean swords, you know, for example, cups are hearts, and then there's some dispute about wands and diamonds, but sorry, diamonds and clubs, which actually extends into the esoteric correspondences as well.

但主要区别当然在于，塔罗牌有一套22张大阿卡纳，这在扑克牌中是完全缺失的。

But the main difference, of course, is that in tarot, you have a set of 22 major Arcana, which is completely lacking in a playing card deck.

另外一点是，扑克牌中用国王、王后、杰克代替了国王、王后、骑士、侍从，所以他们去掉了骑士。

And also, the other thing is that instead of king queen knight page, you have king queen jack in a playing card deck, so they dropped the knight.

好的。

Okay.

所以，是的。

So Yeah.

但它们都源自同一个地方。

But they all come from the same place.

它们源自同一个地方，你所说的部分意思是，这可以追溯到游戏的观念。

They come from the same place, and part of what you're saying is that it goes back to that notion of a game.

而其中关键的一点是，游戏最初必须包含一个随机或机遇的成分，以及一个随机或机遇的分配。

And and part of maybe the connection there and what's important is that with games, there you initially have to start off with a random or chance component and a random or chance allotment.

然后，这种‘分配’的概念可能很关键，因为在古代世界，这个词与命运密切相关，因为……

And then maybe that that idea of like allotment is key because that was a super important term in the ancient world when it had to do with fate because Mhmm.

一个人的命运是一种分配，基于机遇，也基于运气或类似的东西，但这种分配是有意义的，而不是纯粹随机或无意义的，而是以某种方式具有目的性或意图性，源于命运、神灵、宇宙等更广泛的概念。

One's fate was an allotment, based on chance and and based on, you know, fortune or or what have you, but that the allotment was meaningful instead of just random or senseless, but but purposeful in some way or intentional in some way on the part of some broader concepts of like fate or the gods or the cosmos or what have you.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

这说得通。

That makes sense.

嗯。

Mhmm.

好的。

Alright.

所以它又回到了那个点，但塔罗牌随后分支出去，开始引入图像解释，赋予图像特定含义，并基于占星术和其他神秘学元素建立其他对应关系。

So it's going back to that, but then tarot branches off and starts getting this other thing with image interpretations and images that were attributed meaning and also other correspondences based on astrology and other occult things.

然后，正如你所说，到1909年或1910年，出现了新的塔罗牌组——莱德-韦特-史密斯牌组，它基本上成为了此后绝大多数塔罗牌的核心原型。

And then eventually, as you were saying, by nineteen o nine or 1910, there's the creation of this new tarot deck, is the Rider Waite Smith deck, and that became basically the core archetype of like all other decks all other tarot decks since that time for the most part.

是的。

Yes.

尤其是小阿卡那牌，我们称之为场景小牌，每张小牌上都描绘了具体的场景，而不仅仅是简单地展示如‘权杖四’这样的符号。

Particularly because the minor cards, the scenic minors is what we call them, the idea that there's little scenes playing out on each minor card rather than just showing you, you know, four of wands.

它展示了正在发生的事情，你可以将自己投射其中，我认为这解释了它的流行原因。

It shows you something that's happening that you can project into and onto, and I think that accounts for its popularity.

好的。

Okay.

再次提到那三位人物是谁？关于这个牌组的制作，背后的历史简要是怎样的？

And who were the three figures that were associated again, and what's the history behind or the short clip notes version of the history behind the making of this deck?

亚瑟·爱德华·怀特和帕梅拉·科尔曼·史密斯。

Arthur Edward Waite and Pamela Coleman Smith.

帕梅拉·科尔曼·史密斯当时深度参与了英国的戏剧界，因此这些牌面中融入了大量莎士比亚风格和戏剧元素。

Pamela Coleman Smith was very much involved in the theater world, the theater scene in England at that time, so there's a lot of kind of Shakespearean and theater imagery embedded in those cards.

主要是这两个人，当然，对于追随托特牌的人来说，阿莱斯特·克劳利曾短暂加入过黄金黎明协会，但他与弗里达女士在四十年代战时共同设计了托特牌，尽管它直到1969年才正式发布。

It was really those two, and then, of course, for those who follow the Thoth deck, Alastair Crowley was briefly a member of the Golden Dawn, but he and lady Frieda Harris devised the, Thoth deck in the forties in wartime, although it wasn't actually issued until 1969.

好的。

Okay.

所以还有另一个牌组，当我听到人们谈论托特牌时，他们往往会压低声音，似乎觉得它带有一种更阴暗、更具威胁性的能量，某些符号也显得更加沉重。

So there's another deck, and the Thoth deck was sometimes when I hear people talk about that, they have a they sort of like lower their voice, and there's like a sense of it being a little bit more almost like menacing or having a darker energy in some of the symbolism.

你的意思是，这是真的吗？

Is that your take is that is that true?

作为一个对这个领域不熟悉的人，我这样复述对吗？

Am I recounting that correctly as somebody is an outsider to this?

或者

Or

我认为这里发生的是人们对克劳利的感受。

So I think that what's going on there is people's feelings about Crowley.

你知道的吧？

You know?

我的意思是，他名声太坏了。

I mean, because he has such a reputation.

而图特牌的问题之一是，弗里达夫人不喜欢画人脸。

And and the Thoth deck is well, part of the problem with the Thoth deck is that Lady Frieda did not like drawing faces.

所以牌里出现的人脸都显得阴森、现代且风格化。

So, you know, so what faces there are in there are sort of menacing and and modernist and stylized.

但这确实是一副带有独特氛围的牌组，我认为人们要么觉得它极具吸引力和引人入胜，要么觉得它令人反感且阴森。

But but it is it is a deck that is that does have sort of a vibe about it that I think people find, either incredibly attractive and compelling or rather off putting and sinister.

你知道它的版权状况如何吗？我能不能展示一张图片，还是应该避免这样做？

Do you know what the copyright status is of that, and if I can show an image, or should I avoid that for

我认为你可以展示图片。

this I think you can show an image.

我认为在合理使用的背景下是没有问题的。

I think it's fine in the context of fair use.

二十世纪四十年代？

Nineteen forties?

好的。

Okay.

我可以给你看看金币七，或者如果你愿意的话，我可以展示一下。

I'm Show them, like, the seven of discs, or or I can show it if you like.

我的意思是，我这里有

I mean, I have

如果你有的话。

If you've got it.

所以我只是，哦，对。

So I've just Oh, yeah.

这个谷歌搜索结果。

This Google search results.

是的。

Yes.

让我看看。

Let me see.

我得打开我的托特牌图片文件夹，如果可以的话。

I would have to just bring up my Thoth image folder if I can.

所以它们等一下。

So they are one moment.

呃。

Ugh.

开源软件。

Foss.

所以在这两种情况下，我不确定这是否相关，但都像是一个对神秘学感兴趣的男人，然后有一位女性才是实际设计这些图像的人？

And and so in both instances, I don't know if that's relevant at all, but it was like some guy and that was into occultism, and then they had a woman that was the, actual designer who designed the actual images in both cases?

是的。

Yes.

这看起来很奇怪，不是吗？

It seems it seems strange, doesn't it?

但，但没错，事实就是这样。

But, but, yes, that is that is what happened.

我没有屏幕共享功能。

I do not have screen sharing.

你觉得你能开启吗？

Do you think you can enable?

好的。

Yeah.

让我看看。

Let me see.

让我来处理。

Let me do that.

允许一下，好的。

Allow to Okay.

设为联合主持人。

Make cohost.

我们看看这样能不能避免录制中断。

Let's see if that helps without crashing our recording.

是的。

Yes.

没问题。

We're good.

好的。

Okay.

好了。

There we go.

所以，比如这张是七张圆盘，你知道的，颜色稍微暗一点。

So this is the, for example, the seven of discs, which, you know, it's a little it's a little darker.

它有点不够贴近你的生活实际。

It's a little, doesn't really meet you where you live.

另一方面，那些对对应关系感兴趣的人喜欢它的一点是，你能直接看到上面的实际对应关系。

On the other hand, one thing that that people who are into the correspondences love about it is that, you can see the actual correspondences on it.

那我们来看看。

So, let's see.

我觉得你看不太清，因为我把边框删了，但顶部是土星符号，底部是金牛座符号。

I don't think I can you can just barely see it because I've removed the borders, but that's a Saturn glyph at the top and a Taurus glyph at the bottom.

好的。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

明白了。

Got it.

对。

Yeah.

我先停止共享。

Let me stop that share.

好的。

Okay.

不过这是后来出现的，大约在几十年后，但1909到1910年问世的莱德-韦特-史密斯牌组成为了此后绝大多数牌组的蓝本。

This was that was a later one though that came about a few decades later, but the Ryder Waite Smith deck that was out nineteen o nine, nineteen ten became the blueprint for all other decks for the most

大部分后续牌组都以此为范本。

part following that.

真正的原因是，它在1971年由已故的深受喜爱的斯图尔特·卡普兰重新出版，而‘思想牌组’则是在1969年推出的，因此在两者之中，尤其是莱德-韦特-史密斯牌组，真正推动了现代塔罗牌时代的开启——伴随着七十年代兴起的新时代运动，塔罗牌正是从那时起蓬勃发展起来的。

Really, really the reason is because it was reissued by, you know, the the late beloved Stuart Kaplan who just passed this weekend, in 1971, and that with the thought deck being released in 1969, so between the two of them, but especially the Rider Waite Smith, that really launched that this sort of, modern era of tarot where along with the sort of, new age movement with its roots in the seventies, you know, tarot really took off starting then.

好的。

Okay.

是什么时候？

When was it?

从一开始就是彩色的吗，还是后来才上色的？

Was it colorized from the beginning, or was that a separate process?

是的。

Yes.

从一开始就是彩色的，不过原始版本的颜色比1971年再版的版本要暗淡得多，而1971年版的颜色非常偏黄。

It was it was color from the beginning, although the original colors were much more muted than the 1971 edition that most people are familiar with, which is very yellow.

好的。

Okay.

明白了。

Got it.

所以让我想想，除了这些之外，还有没有其他相关的历史信息。

So let me see if I'm trying to think if there's any more history things that are relevant besides that.

如今，有成百上千种不同的塔罗牌组，你知道，我播客的联合主持人就设计或绘制过一两副自己的牌组。

Today, there are, you know, hundreds and thousands of different decks, and different people your cohost on the podcast, I know, has done one or two different of their own decks or illustrated their own decks.

没错。

That's right.

对。

Yes.

是的。

Mhmm.

那就是

That's What's

那个叫什么来着？

that one called again?

《罗塞塔塔罗》是她的第一个牌组，而《Tabula Mundi 塔罗》最初是黑白的，后来才上色。

The Rosetta Tarot was her first deck, and the Tabula Mundi Tarot, which is which she did originally in black and white and then colored.

新版叫《Caloris Argus Tabula Mundi》，非常漂亮。

The new edition is called the Caloris Argus Tabula Mundi, and it's it's beautiful.

简直美极了。

It's absolutely beautiful.

而且她去年还推出了另一个主要系列，叫做《法老塔罗牌》。

And as well as the major's edition that she did last year, called the Pharaohs Tarot.

好的。

Okay.

我展示了我有塔罗奇牌组，其实我最早买的一副牌是莉兹·格林和朱丽叶·舒恩伯格创作的《神话塔罗牌》。

And I showed I've got the tarotchi deck, and I actually I bought a deck very early on, and it was the one by, I think it's called the Mythic Tarot by Liz Green and Juliet Schoenberg.

你手上的是原版吗？因为十年前它再版过一次。

The the original one you have, because it was reissued like Is ten years

这是原版吗？

this original or

对，就是这个。

That's it.

我墙上挂着一幅，就挂在我右边的轮盘上。

That I have that hanging on my wall of wheel right to my right.

我喜欢这个。

I love that.

是的。

Yes.

所以，我这个是

So I It's

这是一个非常棒的塔罗牌组。

a wonderful wonderful deck.

对。

Yeah.

因为它们试图将神话或古典神话融入到某些不同牌面的象征体系中。

Because they try to integrate mythology or mythological store classical mythology into the symbolism of some of the different ones.

其中一个就是命运之轮，它展示了三位命运女神的形象。

So one of them is the Wheel of Fortune, and it shows the three fates from

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

牌面上绘有摩伊拉（命运三女神）。

It shows the moirei.

其实我上周刚把这张牌贴在墙上，这样每当我吟诵俄耳甫斯教致摩伊拉的颂歌时，就能看到这三位——阿特洛波斯、拉刻西斯和克洛托。

And in fact, I just placed that on my wall last week so that I would have those three, know, Atropos, Lachesis, and Clotho to look at when I recite the Orphic Hymn to the moirei.

所以我现在每天都能看到这张牌。

So I I look at that every day now.

我喜欢这样的安排。

I like that.

选得正好。

Good timing.

所以那只是另一套牌组的例子而已。

So that's just an example of like another deck.

我很早就买下那套牌了，因为我十多岁中期刚接触占星学时，就尝试深入研究了很多不同的相关领域。

And I I bought that early on because when I got into astrology when I was still in my mid teens, I tried to dive into a bunch of different things.

那时候我沉迷于占星学，不仅买了一套塔罗牌，还买了一本关于《易经》的书和几枚占卦用的铜钱。

And I was getting really into astrology, and I bought a tarot deck, and I also bought like an a book on the I Ching and some coins.

但我很早就决定需要集中精力专攻一项，于是我决定学习占星术，并尽可能深入钻研。

But I decided really early on that I needed to really focus my energy on one, and so I decided to learn astrology and go as far with that as I could.

我实际上并没有学会塔罗牌，尽管我对它有一些粗浅的了解，但这并不是我的专长，而且其中一些内容对我来说也是新的。

And I didn't actually end up learning tarot even though I'm very loosely familiar with it so that it's not something I specialize in, much at all, and and some of this is new to me.

嗯，我觉得你那些塔罗牌都很不错。

Well, you know, I think you've got some really good decks there.

《神话塔罗》那本书特别好，但我认为你的经历背后有一个更根本的真相：塔罗和占星爱好者往往有很高的重叠度。

The the book for the mythic tarot is particularly good, but I think that there's a sort of a more fundamental truth to the to your biography there, is that, you know, tarot and astro people tend to overlap quite a bit.

你知道的吧？

You know?

我发现每个人在某个阶段都会接触两者，我不知道是否能预测谁会深入哪一边，但大多数人如果懂其中一个，对另一个也多少有些了解。

I've found that everyone dabbles at one point or another with both, and and it's I don't know if you can predict who's gonna go one way or who the other, but but most people have a passing familiarity with one if they know the other.

当然。

Sure.

是的。

Yeah.

有时候，一旦你接触过某种占卜方式并理解了其基本的底层原理，虽然这些知识并不能直接迁移，但它至少能让你对世界和宇宙的运作方式产生一种理解，明白其他类似的事物也可能是存在的。

That sometimes they're sometimes once you maybe part of it is that once you are exposed to one form of divination and you understand the basic, like, underlying principles, it's not that you can easily that that's immediately transferable, but you at least it opens up an understanding of how the world works and like a cosmos where other things like that could be possible in Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

一种开放的心态。

An openness.

因此，你可能会更愿意去尝试不同的占卜形式，看看它们是如何运作的，或者找人做个解读之类的。

So you might be more open to entertaining different forms of divination and seeing how they work or perhaps, you know, getting a reading for from somebody or or what have you.

对。

Right.

这就引出了一个问题。

So that brings up a question then.

不同的占卜形式有不同的特点吗？

Do different forms of divination have different characters?

有没有某些占卜方式更适合或更不适合特定类型的问题？

Are there different ones that are better or worse for certain types of questions?

我伴侣丽莎经常提到，不同的占卜形式似乎各有其独特的特质，有时还嵌入了特定的哲学观点。

Or one of the things, my partner Lisa often comments on is she feels like different forms of divination sometimes have a different character, and sometimes they're embedded in certain philosophical outlooks.

比如，《易经》背后的某些哲学思想，可能会给它带来一种特定的倾向，有时显得更具道德说教色彩。

Like, for example, some of the philosophy underlying the I Ching might, you know, give it a certain spin that sometimes may come off as, like, more moralizing, for example, sometimes.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你觉得这是真的吗？你怎么看？这引发了你哪些想法？

Do you think that's true, or how do you feel about that, or what does that spark in you in terms of thoughts?

是的。

Yes.

我的意思是，我认为这是对的。

I mean, I think I think that's true.

我觉得，你知道的，我倾向于把事物归为一类，而不是细分成很多类别，你懂我的意思吗？

I think that, you know, I tend to be more of a lumper than a splitter, if you know what I mean.

我总是先看到事物之间的共同点，而不是它们的不同之处。

I tend to tend to always see first what things have in common as opposed to what they the ways in which they're different.

但我确实认为，一旦你进入占卜系统的道德框架，你实际上是在谈论一种在某种程度上脱离了占卜核心主观过程的文化。

But but I do think that, you know, I think that the the moment that you get into the moral framework around a divination system, you're talking about culture in a way that is, in some ways, outside of the process, of the subjective process that is truly what divination is about.

对吧？

Right?

嗯。

Mhmm.

我的意思是，我认为作为占卜师，每个人在职业生涯中都必须学会这一点：你必须根据眼前的情况来应对，尽量不去评判它。

I mean, I think this is something that I've had to and I think every reader has to learn to do in the course of their life as a reader, which is you deal with the situation as it comes to you, and you try not to pass judgment on it.

因为一旦你的自我意识和所有信仰体系开始影响问题本身，你就已经干扰了过程。

Because the minute that you and all of your ego consciousness and all of your belief systems start to bear on the question, you're getting in the way.

所以，我和蕾切尔·波洛克多次讨论过，比如哪些话题是可以读的，哪些地方应该保持克制，是否该窥探第三方，是否该为寻求帮助而占卜，诸如此类的问题。

So, you know, I mean, there's a it's very hard not to do, but I've had this conversation with Rachel Pollock a number of times about, you know, what it's okay to read about, what it's you know, where you should be hands off, should you spy on third parties, should you read for help, things like that.

而且，因为我们试图成为有道德的人，有时会为此制定一些规则，但蕾切尔过去告诉我的是：我有什么资格去评判什么是好问题、什么不是好问题呢？

And and, you know, and because we are trying to be ethical people, we sometimes come up with rules around that, but what Rachel has said to me in the past is, you know, who am I to say what's a good question and what's not?