凯龙星的占星学，由梅兰妮·莱因哈特主讲

我所做的只是倾听。

All I do is listen.

当我从客户那里听到的内容明显属于刻戎的领域时，那基本上是在讲述一个故事。

And if what I'm hearing from my client who's speaking is basically telling me a story which is so obviously within the territory of Chiron.

我当时犹豫了，因为我现在非常倾向于把所有半人马视为一个整体。

And there I hesitated because I now very much think of all the centaurs as a group.

当我说到‘所有’时，我需要澄清一下，我并不会使用全部的半人马。

And when I say all, I should clarify, I don't use them all.

我忘了具体有多少个了。

There's more than forgot the number.

我觉得现在大约有400个半人马。

I think it's about around 400 centaurs now.

好的。

Okay.

但其中只有大约20个被正式命名了。

There's only about 20 of them I think which have actually been named.

而在这些小行星中，进一步被研究过的就更少了。

And of those, even fewer that have been researched.

至于我，我不认为自己是个研究者。

Me, I don't think of myself as a researcher.

我只能处理那些真正触动我的东西，而这种触动是无法强求的。

I can only work with something that absolutely speaks to me, and I can't make that happen.

所以，一旦建立了那种能量连接——几乎像是一种全身性的能量连接，我才会进行所谓的研究。

So once that energy connection and almost like a full body energy connection has occurred, then I do the so called research.

但我所做的，只是在某种程度上承载或容纳它——就像绘画时，你先有愿景，然后才拿出颜料、油彩和画笔。

But all I'm doing is kind of containing or Like if you were a painting, you might have a vision first and then you get out the paints and the oils and the brush.

所以我尝试用文字来做同样的事，描绘出我早已体验过的东西，不只是我自己的体验，而是成百上千位客户的体验。

So that's what I tried to do with words, tried to paint a picture of what I'd already experienced, not not just me, but hundreds and hundreds of clients.

事情变得如此奇特，以至于我有时会想，天啊，这些客户仿佛是来教我关于奇龙如何运作的。

It got so bizarre that I I sometimes thought, my god, this really feels like these clients are coming to teach me about how Chiron works.

难以置信。

Unbelievable.

当然。

Sure.

所以你的过程部分是一种经验性的方法，通过关注自己星盘中的这个新天体来理解它意味着什么，没错。

So part of your process though was an empirical process of like understanding what this new body meant partially through paying attention to it in your own chart and also Exactly.

也是通过关注客户星盘中的这个天体吗？

Paying attention to it in the charts of clients?

确实如此。

Indeed.

所以回到赞博尼的问题，我其实并不觉得有必要谈论凯龙星。

So just to go back to Zamboni's question, I really don't feel like I need to talk about Chiron.

但我想可能因为我与它打交道太多了，最终我通常还是会谈到凯龙星。

But I guess maybe because I've worked so much with it, mostly I do end up talking about Chiron.

而主要原因是我能从人们讲述的故事中听到它的声音。

And mostly that's because I can hear the story in what people are telling me.

有一次，一个男人一瘸一拐地走进来，说他从马背上摔下来伤了腿。

And it's got down to one time a man walked in limping and he'd fallen off a horse and injured his leg.

奇龙的腿受了伤，他是个半人马，所以他的马身部分是下半身。

Chiron was injured in his leg and he was a centaur, so his horse half was the lower half.

我的意思是，是的。

I mean Yeah.

当然，他当时正经历一次重要的奇龙相位。

And of course he had a big Chiron transit.

我坐在那里，几乎说不出话来，因为我不知道该说什么。

And I'm sitting there kind of almost speechless because I don't even know what to say.

当然。

Sure.

那我们回到原点吧，假设所有听这个的人对奇龙的意义或相关神话一无所知，我们从最基础的开始介绍。

Well, let's go back to square one just and let's assume that anybody listening to this doesn't have any idea what Chiron means anything about the mythology and let's introduce the starting point.

所以你最初是通过经验观察到的，但同时也大量运用了神话，而且从20世纪70年代到80年代以来，许多占星师似乎都默认一个前提：奇龙这个名字以及与之相关的希腊神话，确实具有某种深层的象征意义，并且与它在占星学中的含义密切相关。

So you started seeing it empirically, but also there was a heavy use of mythology and a sort of presumption that it seems like many astrologers were making from the 1970s and 80s forward that the name that was chosen for Chiron and the Greek myths associated with that actually had some sort of deeper symbolic significance that actually, related to what it meant in astrology.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yes.

我想，这是对的。

Think, I think that's true.

我的意思是，这是真的吗？我不想强加

Mean, that true or I don't wanna put

我不确定你对这个假设的看法。

I words in your don't know about the assumption.

我从未真正假设过。

I never really assumed that.

只是因为一切都对得上，你知道吗？

It was just that everything seemed to fit, you know?

对。

Right.

我的意思是，你认为凯龙的神话对其在占星学中的解释和意义有相关性吗？

I mean, do you think that the mythology of Chiron is relevant for its interpretation and meaning in astrology?

是的，我相信。

Yes, I do.

好的。

Okay.

我相信。

I do.

你知道吗，当我真正写这本书的时候，我收集了大量成箱的笔记之类的材料，但我根本没想过要写一本书。

And you know, when I was actually writing the book, I mean, collected up these massive boxes of notes and so forth, but I actually never even thought of writing a book.

我只是在努力理解它本身。

I was just working to try and understand it myself.

是霍华德提出了这个建议，愿他安息。

It was Howard who made that suggestion, bless him.

所以他有天王星在天蝎座落在中天。

So he had Chiron in Scorpio on the Midheaven.

是他给了我推动，给了我提示，你知道的？

And he was the one who gave shove, me gave me the prompt, you know?

不错。

Nice.

是的，非常好。

Yeah, very nice.

对。

Yeah.

那么，与凯龙相关的神话是什么？或者对于刚接触凯龙神话的人来说，哪些部分是相关的？

So what is the myth associated with Chiron or what parts of the myth are relevant for somebody that's new to understanding Chiron mythology?

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，如果我们稍微研究一下天文学，就会发现凯龙对占星师而言有着非常重要的象征意义。

I would say that there's a very important reflection for us astrologers of the meaning of Chiron if you just study the astronomy a little bit.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这非常直观，我很喜欢。

It's very graphic, and I love that.

所以对我来说，如果名字、神话和天文学与你实际观察到的占星学一致，那就足够好了。

So to me, you know, if the the if name and the mythology and the astronomy check out with the astrology that you're actually seeing, well, that's good enough for me.

我知道这一点。

I know that.

这就是为什么我说我并不是真正的研究者。

That's why I said I'm not really a researcher.

我只是把各种东西拼凑在一起。

I just kinda put stuff together.

这在我的个人过程中会产生共鸣。

That would be a resonance in my own process.

我并不会自动假设它会对其他人也有兴趣。

And I don't automatically assume it's gonna be of interest to anybody else.

通常我要花很长时间研究之后，才会开始分享它等等。

It's usually a really long time before I have researched it and then begin to share it and so forth.

因为实际上，我所使用的其他半人马星体，并不是所有400多个我都用。

Because essentially, the other centaurs that I work with I don't work with all 400 or something of them.

我只研究四个。

I only work with four.

但我对每一个的了解方式都是一样的，而且是持续进行的，你知道的？

But each of them I learned about in the same way and ongoingly, you know?

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

让我更直接地回答你的问题。

Let me answer your question more directly.

所以我们看到，凯龙星和半人马族位于太阳系中木星和冥王星之间的区域。

So we see that Chiron and the centaurs occupy the zone in the solar system that goes between Jupiter and Pluto.

所以

So

这个区域包括了肉眼可见的行星的外缘，以及那些无法用肉眼看到、但通过数学和科技发现的行星。

that zone includes the outer edges of the easily visible planets and the ones that can't be seen with the naked eye, but were discovered with maths and technology.

所以这真的像是两个不同的世界。

So it really is like two different worlds.

它们在可见与不可见的这两个世界之间来回穿梭。

They cross, to and fro, between these two worlds, the visible and the invisible.

这确实说明了很多，因为我们都知道可见世界是什么，至少在感官层面上是如此。

Now that absolutely speaks volumes, because we all know what the visible world is, at least at the level of the senses.

而不可见世界这个概念，哇，其中包含了太多内容。

And the notion of the invisible worlds, wow, that contains so much.

它就是我们自身的内在体验。

It's our own internal experience.

在某些心理学体系中，这被称为无意识。

It's what's known as the unconscious in some systems of psychology.

它是灵性世界。

It's the spirit world.

这是一种更古老、更原住民式的宇宙观。

That's a more ancient, and indigenous kind of a cosmology.

但这完全是人类经验的一部分。

But it's totally part of the human experience.

它只是被长期排斥、嘲笑和压制，以至于人们不相信它，不信仰它，尽管事实上很多人通过梦境、遐想、灵体造访等方式体验过灵界，但他们可能不敢说出来，害怕别人觉得他们疯了。

It's just been pushed out and derided and oppressed for so long that people don't believe it, don't believe in it, regardless of the fact that many, many people do have experiences of the spirit world through their dreams, through reveries, through spirit visitations, etcetera, but they probably don't speak about it, afraid that people think they're mad.

同样，人们也可以与动物交流。

Likewise, people can communicate with animals.

这是一件自然的事。

This is a natural thing.

就像任何天赋一样，有些人在这方面更擅长。

Like any gift, it can be more developed in some people than others.

但事实上，能够与动物交流是自然的。

But actually, it's natural to be able to communicate with animals.

这是一件非常非常古老的事。

And this is a very, very ancient thing.

与植物交流，也是如此。

Communicating with plants, same thing.

有一整套美妙的花疗精粹。

There's a whole range of wonderful flower healing essences.

几乎在全球各地，人们正在复兴使用植物精粹的方式。

There's almost like all over the world people are now reviving the way of using plant essences.

其方法是通过一种交流，也就是说，你与植物的灵魂对话，或者更准确地说，是它们在对你说话。

And the way it's done is through a communion, where it's like you know, you speak to the spirit of the plant, or more accurately, they speak to you.

你看，正是这种意识，是凯龙带给我们的东西。

Now you see, it's that kind of consciousness that Chiron brings to us.

有些人对此非常自在，而另一些人则感到恐惧，不愿了解。

Some people are very at home in that and others are frankly terrified and don't wanna know.

这很合理。

Fair enough.

你知道的。

You know?

因此，这种跨越边界、连接不同体验维度的概念——生与死之间、动物与人类之间、过去与未来之间，无论怎样，都要搭建起这座桥梁。

So this notion of crossing the borders and connecting different dimensions of experience between the living and the dead, between the animals and the human, between the past and the future, whatever, and making that bridge.

我的意思是，在芭芭拉·汉德·克劳那本美妙的书中，她称奇龙为彩虹之桥。

I mean, in Barbara Hand Clow's lovely book, she calls Chiron the Rainbow Bridge.

我认为，这部分是因为天文学象征唤起了这种联想。

And I think partly it's this astronomical symbolism that evokes that.

所以奇龙充当了一座桥梁，连接着两个世界或两个看似不相关的领域。

So Chiron acting as a bridge and bridging two worlds or two seemingly unconnected, areas.

这一点也部分体现在你所描述的天文学特征中，以及奇龙半人半兽的神话形象里。

And that partially is also reflected in the astronomy as you described as well as in the mythology of Chiron being like half human and half animal.

完全正确。

Exact exactly.

在他的形象、他的形态中，就正是这种困境的体现。

In his image, in his very form, is exactly that dilemma.

明白了。

Okay.

对于那些不了解的人，奇龙半人半兽意味着什么？为什么是这样？背后有什么样的神话故事？

And what is the For those that don't know, what that means in terms of Chiron being half human and half animal, why is that or what is the myth associated with that?

关于他的起源神话，喀戎的父亲是克洛诺斯或萨图恩，母亲是一位名叫菲吕拉的宁芙。

Well, in the myth of his origins, Chiron's father was Cronus or Saturn, and his mother was a nymph called Philira.

在喀戎受孕时，萨图恩是奥林匹斯众神之一，而菲吕拉则是一位宁芙。

And at the time Chiron was conceived, both these well, Saturn was a was a god, a member of the Olympian gang, and Philara was a nymph.

但像神和半神常常能够变形一样。

But like gods and demigods often can shape shift.

所以他们俩在受孕时都化作了马的形态。

So both of them had shape shifted into being in their horse form.

而喀戎正是在他们以这种形态时被 conceived 的。

And that they were like that when Chiron was conceived.

因此，当喀戎出生时，菲吕拉看到他一半是马，完全惊恐万分，向众神祈祷，希望自己不要成为怪物的母亲。

So when Chiron was born to Filyra, when he came out of the womb as half horse, he was completely horrified and prayed to the gods to be made into anything other than what she was, namely the mother of a monster, as she saw it.

于是喀戎被遗弃了，按照神话传说中一贯的方式，被一位牧羊人发现并救下，带到了伟大的神阿波罗那里，阿波罗成了他的养父。

So Chiron was abandoned and in the time honored manner of myth and legend was found by a shepherd and rescued from certain death and taken to the great god Apollo, who became his foster father.

因此，他由阿波罗亲自教导和抚养，学到了许多技能。

So he was mentored and fostered by Apollo himself, who taught him numerous skills.

阿波罗也与治愈有关。

Like Apollo was also associated with healing.

非常重要的是，他和妹妹都被说成既能带来瘟疫，也能治愈瘟疫。

Very significantly, both he and his sister were said to both send and cure plagues.

是的。

And, yeah.

他教会了喀戎各种生存技能，某种程度上，这就像人们可以想象的、适合年轻男子或年轻英雄的成年仪式。

He he was Chiron was taught all kinds of survival skills and in a sense, he had almost like one can imagine the kind of initiation rites appropriate for a young man, young hero, whatever.

后来发生了一件事，一些更粗野的半人马——那些没有奥林匹斯神血统的半人马。

And there was an incident where, some of the more unruly centaurs, the ones that have don't have any Olympian ancestors.

他们更像一群躁动不安的暴徒，常常袭击城镇，抢走葡萄酒，或绑架新娘。

They're more like a seething uncontrollable mob that used to rampage through towns and take wine and steal it, or take brides and steal them.

他们是原始、无拘无束的生命力的象征。

They're an image of just a raw, unbridled, vital force.

所以，这些是没有特定奥林匹斯血统或祖先的半人马。

So those are the centaurs without any particular Olympian legacy or ancestry.

他们经常发生战斗。

And they often used to fight.

在其中一场战斗中，喀戎被赫拉克勒斯射出的箭射伤了——赫拉克勒斯经常参与这些战斗。大英博物馆里有许多浮雕和雕像，其中一些来自帕特农神庙，描绘了拉庇泰人与半人马之间的战斗。

So in one of those fights, Chiron got wounded by an arrow from Hercules who was often There's a lot of friezes statues in the British Museum, some of them from the Parthenon, depicting the battle between the Lapiths and the centaurs.

赫拉克勒斯经常参与这些战斗。

And Hercules was often involved in those battles.

这就像所谓文明与所谓原始之间的古老对决。

And it's like the kind of time honored battle between the so called civilized and the so called primitive.

这种描述非常富有感染力，因为显然许多描述都基于投射。

So so evocative because of course a lot of that description rests on projection.

总之，喀戎的腿受了伤，根据不同版本，伤口位置可能在大腿或膝盖。

Anyway, Chiron was wounded in the leg, depends which version as to where, but it's either the thigh or the knee.

另一名半人马脚部受伤了，但那是另一个故事了。

Another centaur was wounded in the foot, but that's another story.

由于伤口有毒，他无法自愈。

And because the wound was poisoned, he couldn't heal it.

作为半神，他不会死。

And as a demigod, he couldn't die.

所以他活了下来，我想是阿波罗多罗斯或赫西俄德提到他活了九百多年，忍受着无法治愈的伤口带来的永恒痛苦，但最终成为了一位伟大的导师、智者和治疗者，后来他与普罗米修斯交换了命运。

And so he lived, and I think it's either Apollodorus or Hesiod who gives the figure of nine hundred and something years that he lived in mortal agony, unable to heal his own wound, but becoming a great mentor and wise man and healer himself in And the then eventually, he changed places with Prometheus.

普罗米修斯，你可能听过这个故事，他因为冒犯宙斯而被锁在岩石上。

Prometheus, you might know this story, he was chained on a rock because he had mocked Zeus.

这 probably 不是个好主意，但他就这么做了。

Probably not a very good idea, but that's what he did.

是的。

Sure.

这是一个非常有趣的故事，但我觉得在这里讲太长了。

It's a really interesting story, but too long I think to go into here.

普罗米修斯主要以从众神那里偷取火种而闻名。

Prometheus is mainly known as the fellow who stole the fire from the gods.

你知道，这就像对这件事的漫画式简化版本。

And you know, that's like a comic strip version of it.

这背后有一整段非常发人深省、非常有趣的故事，这部分内容在我的书里。

There's a whole background thing which is really thought provoking, very interesting, and that part is in my book.

但无论如何，交换位置这个概念，就像那句俗语：走一英里路，穿别人的鹿皮鞋。

But anyway, the notion of changing places with somebody, that's like the phrase walking a mile in someone's moccasins.

你知道吧？

You know?

当你真正能做到这一点时，就会唤起真正的同情心。

So it's awakening of compassion when you can really, really do that.

因此，正是这一点使他们两人从痛苦中解脱出来。

And so this was what freed both of them from their suffering.

喀戎得以死去，这意味着在这一语境下他获得了永生——他被升上天空，成为半人马座，或者有人说他是人马座，关于这两个星座哪个更贴合这个故事，学术界还有一些讨论。

And Chiron was able to die, meaning become immortalized in this context, In the constellation of centaurus or some say Sagittarius, there's some scholarly discussion about which of those two constellations best portrays the storylines.

看起来半人马座确实更像与福罗斯相关的徽记或故事。

And it does seem that centaurus, looks more like, the insignia or the story around Pholus.

但非常有趣的是，这两个半人马星座彼此离得并不远。

But what is very interesting is that the two centaurs, they're not that far away from each other.

我的意思是，从天文学的角度来看，当然距离是以英里计，但如果你看星图，这两个半人马座实际上正朝向天蝎座的方向。

I mean in sky terms, of course it's like miles, but if you look on a star map, the two centaurs actually look or point their arrows towards the scorpion.

而在天蝎座上方是所谓的第十三个星座，你知道的，一个名叫福库斯的星座，它周期性地出现在新闻中，引发恐慌和沮丧，因为每个人都以为自己的星座全错了。

And above the scorpion is the so called thirteenth sign, you know, a fuchus that cyclically kind of gets reported in the news and causes alarm and despondency because everybody thinks all their zodiac signs are wrong and everything.

是的。

Right.

但无论如何，这幅图景非常美丽，因为这两个半人马座以及奥菲斯都与疾病、痛苦和疗愈密切相关。

But anyway, it's a beautiful picture because both the centaurs and also Ophucus are concerned with illness, sickness, and healing as well.

而天蝎座也与毒物以及转化的力量相关，这部分与冥王星的联系有关。

And you know, the scorpion is also associated with poison and also the power of transformation, that partly through the Pluto connection.

因为当我们观察奇龙和半人马座时，我们立刻可以看出，冥王星、奇龙和半人马座在天文学上属于同一类别。

Because when we look at Chiron and the centaurs, what we can see immediately is that Pluto and Chiron and the centaurs, to me, they belong in the same category because of the astronomy.

所以在奇龙和半人马座被发现之前，冥王星是唯一一颗以如此陡峭角度穿越黄道面的行星。

So all of them So before Chiron in the centaurs was discovered, Pluto was the only orbit crossing planet at such a high at such a steep angle to the ecliptic.

而早在奇龙被发现数十年前，赞恩·鲁德哈就曾对此大加赞赏。

And it was Zane Rudhyar who waxed lyrical about that decades before Chiron was discovered.

他以类似谈论彗星的方式谈到了轨道交叉。

And he spoke about orbit crossing in a similar way that he spoke about comets.

这就像新能量涌入旧系统，或从黑暗中带来光明。

That it was like the intrusion of new energy into an old system or the bringing in of the light from out of the dark.

还有净化。

Also, the purification.

他谈到某种东西几乎像一种干预一样进入太阳系，带来新的能量、新的能量冲动等等。

He spoke about the sense of something coming in to the solar system almost like an intervention and bringing new energy, new impulses of energy and so forth.

现在，鲁道夫·施泰纳对彗星这个话题非常有意思，因为他谈到了一种星灵净化的过程，彗星……我们所看到的是彗星的尾巴变得越来越亮。

Now Rudolf Steiner, very interesting on the subject of comets because he spoke about a process of astral purification whereby the comet So what we see is the comet's tail getting brighter and brighter and brighter.

他将此描述为星灵残渣被烧尽，仿佛在行进过程中净化太阳系。

He describes that as sort of astral debris being burned up, and so like purifying the solar system as it goes.

非常有趣。

Very interesting.

因此，在1970年、1987年、88年，或者稍晚一点，曾有一段短暂时期，冥王星被归类为彗星，因为人们以为看到了正在变亮的彗尾，但最终并没有什么实质结果。

So temporarily in 1970 1987, '88, or maybe a bit later, there was just a short period where, Chiron got a comet classification because they thought they saw a tail that was brightening, but it didn't really come to much.

那么关于奇龙最有趣的是，它不断被重新分类。

Now what's so interesting about Chiron, it keeps on being reclassified.

我认为现在终于确定了，因为他现在是半人马族群的首领，你知道的。

I think it's now settled because he's now the chief centaur of the centaur gang, you know.

但在那之前，他拥有小行星编号、彗星编号，当然还有矮行星、阿巴拉契亚的称号。

But before that, he has an asteroid number, a comet number, and of course a minor planet, Appalachian.

是的，最初的名字是类行星天体。

Yeah, The first name was a planetoid.

类行星天体、小行星、彗星，然后是矮行星，再之后是半人马这个子类。

Planetoid, asteroid, comet, then then a minor planet, and then the subcategory of centaur.

对。

Yeah.

看起来好像有

Seems like there's

关键是，他保留了所有这些分类。

the point is he's kept all of those classifications.

他并没有说，哦不不，我不是那样的。

He hasn't gone, oh no no, I'm not that.

你知道，这一切都吻合。

You know it's like it all fits.

这一切都挺说得通的。

It all kind of works.

所以，这幅美丽的图景展现了一个转变的过程，关于我们核心身份的真正变化——当我们从自以为的样子转变为正在成为的样子时，你可能会从行星体变成小行星，再变成彗星，等等。

So a beautiful image of a process of transformation, of our own core identity really, That when we're changing from who we thought we were into who we are becoming, you know we might move from planetoid to asteroid to comet, etcetera.

而且这些分类中没有一个是错误的，因此不该被抛弃。

And it's not that any of those are wrong and should be therefore thrown away.

它们都很好。

They're all fine.

这都是旅程的一部分。

It's all part of the journey.

对我来说，这是一个非常有力的象征。

And to me that's a very powerful symbol.

是的，维基百科条目上仍然保留着双重分类。

Yeah, it looks like on the Wikipedia entry, it still has the dual classification.

它写道：尽管最初被称为小行星，并仅被归类为编号为2060凯龙的矮行星，但后来发现它表现出典型的彗星行为。

It says, Although it was initially called an asteroid and classified only as a minor planet with the designation 2,060 Chiron, it was later found to exhibit behavior typical of a comet.

如今，它被同时归类为矮行星和彗星，因此也被称为95P/凯龙。

Today, it is classified as both a minor planet and a comet and is accordingly also known by the commentary designation 95PChiron.

它仍然保持着这种双重天文身份，这在联系回半人半兽的神话时非常有趣。

It still has this dual astronomical role which is really interesting in terms of again tying back in with the mythology of being half human and half animal.

没错。

Exactly.

还有将内在世界与外在世界联系起来的这一点。

And that thing of linking the inner world and the outer world.

是的，以上所有内容都充分说明了问题。

And yeah, so all of the above really speaks volumes.

另外，我想说的是，凯龙实际上穿越了土星的轨道。

Also, how I think about the fact You see, Chiron actually cuts through Saturn's orbit.

我确实记了笔记，关于最近这些日期是什么时候。

And, now I did make notes about this as to when the last dates were.

我想应该是1992年的某个时候，凯龙星从狮子座六度左右进入了土星的轨道。

I think it was it was some some point in 1992, Chiron went in through Saturn's orbit at about six degrees of Leo.

而在1999年1月，它又从射手座零度几分处重新穿出这个门户。

And on the it was January 1999, it came back out through the portal of zero and some minutes of Sagittarius.

在接下来的多次运行中，它还会反复进出这两个星座。

And it will come in and out through those two signs for quite a few passes still.

所以它的轨道周期是五十年，对吧？

So it has a fifty year orbital cycle, right?

没错。

That's right.

它略超过五十年，但相当稳定。

It's just over fifty years but fairly even.

大约在五十年到五十一年之间，但非常规律。

Sort of between 50 and 51ish, but that's pretty regular.

当然，由于轨道偏心率的关系，你无法像对土星那样把凯龙星的周期整齐地划分，比如说土星大约每七到九年就会给你打一次重要的电话。

Whereas of course because of the orbital eccentricity, you can't divide up the Chiron cycle neatly like you can Saturn and say, oh, well roughly every seven to nine years you get a big phone call from Saturn.

但凯龙星做不到这一点，因为它的第一次刑相可能发生在任何年龄，据我研究，最早大约五岁就会出现。

Can't do that with Chiron because the first square can occur any age from, I think it's about five when I was researching this.

你可能在五岁就经历，也可能到二十岁出头才出现。

You can get it as young as five years old, or you can get it in your early twenties.

明白了。

Okay.

所以这取决于凯龙星位于哪个星座。

So it depends on which sign which sign Chiron is in.

因为

Because

它的轨道高度椭圆，更像是一个椭圆而非圆形。

of its highly elliptical orbit, it's more like an oval rather than a circle.

它在某些星座中移动得非常快，比如在处女座和天秤座大约只用两年就穿过。

It moves through moves through some signs of the zodiac very quickly like Virgo and Libra in about two years.

而它在其他星座，如双鱼座和白羊座，则移动得非常缓慢，需要八年时间。

Whereas it moves through other signs like Pisces and Aries very slowly and takes eight years.

没错。

Correct.

完全正确。

Absolutely right.

而且你可以看到，因为刻戎实际上在物理上穿越了土星的轨道。

And there, you can see that because Chiron actually moves through the orbit of Saturn physically.

在远日点，也就是它离太阳最远的地方，它会延伸到天王星的范围，但并不会真正跨越天王星的轨道。

And then at the aphelion, in other words, its furthest distance from the Sun, it goes way up to Uranus but doesn't actually cross its orbital path.

它进入了被称为天王星领域的一个区域，这个说法有点令人困惑。

It goes into what's rather confusingly called the sphere of Uranus.

它会进入内部，但并不会真正穿越平均轨道路径。

It goes to the inside but not actually right across the mean average orbital path.

因此这一点非常明显，因为土星大约需要两年半时间经过一个星座，而天王星则需要大约七到八年。

And so there it's kind of really obvious because Saturn takes roughly two and a half years to go through one sign and Uranus takes about seven to eight years.

同样，当凯龙星非常接近土星或位于土星之内时，它会迅速穿过其星座。

Likewise, when Chiron's really near Saturn, or inside Saturn, it'll go really quickly through its signs.

而当它接近远日点时，就会像天王星一样，耗时七到八年，你明白吗。

And, when it's approaching the Apilion, it'll long like Uranus, seven to eight years, you see.

好的。

Okay.

让我们来看一下。

So let's see.

回到神话传说，似乎占星师们尤其从神话中提炼出的一些主要关键词是：凯龙星作为‘受伤的疗愈者’，这是占星师讨论凯龙星时反复出现的一个核心主题。

So going back to the mythology, it seems like some of the main keywords that astrologers have developed especially from mythology are ideas of Chiron being the wounded healer and that being like a major recurring motif that astrologers use when they're discussing Chiron.

是的。

Yeah.

这部分源于他被毒伤，但由于部分永生，他无法死去。

And that's partially due to the idea that he was somebody that was poisoned, but then because he was partially immortal, he couldn't die.

但是

But

他拥有治愈他人的能力，却无法治愈自己。

he also had the skills to heal other people without being able to heal himself.

没错。

Correct.

还有另一件事，事实上，这正是我之前谈到奇龙穿过土星轨道时想表达的。

Now there's another thing which, in fact, this was where I was going when I spoke about the fact that Chiron goes through the orbit of Saturn.

在我看来，这一天文现象当我们结合占星学知识来理解时，也传达了某些信息。

To me, that particular astronomy also tells us something when when we link it with our knowledge of astrology.

如果我们把土星看作是既定的结构，我的意思是，这当然不是土星的关键词描述，但土星的含义确实包含了既定结构的概念。

So if we think of Saturn as established structures, I mean, obviously, that's that's not a keyword description of Saturn, but the meaning of Saturn includes reference to the established structures.

比如历史、传统、现状，以及我们视为理所当然的一切。

You know, history, tradition, the status quo, what we take for granted.

还有我们的心理模式和防御机制，无论它们是否被我们意识到，等等。

Also, our psychological patterning and defenses, whether they're known to us or unknown to us, and so on.

因此，当我们处于变化的过程中时，对自我而言是非常痛苦的。

And so when we're in a process of change, it's very painful for the ego.

哪怕这个改变是我们一直努力争取、真心期盼或是为之付出良多的，当你真正把自己推到固有结构的边界时，这个过程依旧会无比痛苦。

Even if it's a change we've been working for or intending or working towards, it can still be very, very painful when you really take yourself to the edge of your structures.

当你开始真正看清这些结构时，那种痛苦会格外强烈。

As you get to know about them, it can be exceptionally painful.

而凯龙星会不断穿梭穿行于土星的轨道，这个现象让我联想到揉面团、或是在花园里翻土这类场景。

And so there's a way in which this endless looping around that Chiron does through the orbit of Saturn, through the orbit of Saturn, it makes me think of kind of kneading bread or digging in the garden or something.

有些东西是需要慢慢打磨培育的。

Something has to be cultivated.

我认为正是在这里，心灵的主题开始发挥作用——你知道，许多不同的传统都指出，无论是人类能感知的普通心脏，还是有着内在能量联结的心轮，心都是那个能够调和对立事物的地方。

And I think there is where the theme of the heart comes in, because, you know, in many different traditions it's pointed out that the heart, be that the simple feeling human heart or the heart chakra with its internal energy connections, that is the place from which opposites can be reconciled.

而且土星和天王星就是一对十分典型的对立存在。

And hey, a clear pair of opposites is Saturn and Uranus.

也就是现状，以及能将现状彻底颠覆的力量，这种颠覆也会发生在人的内在层面。

So the status quo and that which turns the status quo upside down, including internally.

这种颠覆可能是任何形式的冲击，包括我们在成长、融入社会的人生历程中，会遇到的那些寻常的冲击，以及诸如此类的种种经历。

So that can be a shock of any kind, including just the regular ordinary shocks that we meet through our life in the process of growing up and becoming socialized and all the rest of it.

因此，凯龙星不断循环，连接着可见与不可见的领域，这是一个精神成熟的过程。

And so Chiron kind of goes looping through and connecting the visible and the invisible in a process of kind of spiritually maturing.

这可能与生病、患病或受伤本身无关，但也可能有关。

So that may or may not have anything to do with being sick or ill or wounded per se, but it might do.

与此相关的是，许多人将重大觉醒视为疾病、身体痛苦和各种创伤的直接结果。

There's a there's a correlate to that, which is that many people experience major major awakenings as a direct result of illness and physical suffering and wounds of various kinds.

这种情况非常普遍。

It's incredibly common.

我相信在座的每位听众都至少认识一个人，可能还不止一个，有过类似的经历。

I'm sure all of you listening would probably know at least one person, probably several, who've had those kinds of experiences.

如果你经历了极度的痛苦，你真的会被彻底拉出熟悉的、可见的、已知的世界。

You really you really are taken right out of the familiar, visible, known world if you have an experience of very severe pain.

如果你以任何对你有意义的方式去面对它，它真的可以成为你的导师。

And if you work with that in whatever way makes sense for you, it can really, really be like your teacher.

由于这一直是我生命中非常重要的一部分，我想这也是我立刻对凯龙星产生共鸣的原因之一，因为这听起来可能有点奇怪，但我几乎觉得，面对痛苦——无论是自己的还是他人的——是一种特定的精神道路。

And as that has been very much part of my life, I think that's also one of the reasons I resonated immediately with Chiron because this might sound a strange thing to say, but I almost feel like the path of working with suffering, our own or others, It is a particular kind of spiritual path.

我们从自身的疾病和身体痛苦，以及情感痛苦中获得的教训，是其他任何方式都无法提供的。

There are lessons we get from our own illnesses and physical sufferings as well as emotional sufferings that we don't get in any other way.

对。

Right.

同理心是一个非常重要的组成部分，有时正是源于痛苦。我最近在读一个人的传记时一直在思考这一点：他一生中多次经历失去，这让他培养出了一种同理心，而这种同理心他原本可能并不会拥有。

Empathy is a really major component that sometimes comes from suffering that I've been thinking about lately in reading one person's biography is that his repeated instances of loss in his life had allowed him to cultivate a sense of empathy that Exactly he might not have had

对。

right.

完全正确。

Exactly right.

而且，通常情况下，当星盘中的凯龙星象征某人独特的天赋时，这种天赋往往是在经历了大量痛苦之后才获得的。

And very often, in the case where Chiron in the horoscope can be seen to symbolize a really particular gift that somebody has, that's usually a gift that has been bestowed on the back of a lot of suffering.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你知道吗？

You know?

你不能够去操控这一点，说：‘让我看看我的星盘，看看我的凯龙星位置会给我什么天赋，这样我就能尽快获得它。’

And you can't kind of manipulate that and say, oh, let me look at my chart and see what gift my Chiron placement is gonna give me so I can kinda get to that as quick as possible.

对。

Right.

就像走捷径什么的？

Like a shortcut or something?

完全正确。

Exactly right.

因为这是上天赐予的。

Because it's it's bestowed.

你无法假装拥有它。

You can't kind of you you can't fake that.

你知道的？

You know?

好的。

Okay.

所以对于奇龙星来说，根本没有捷径。

So there's no no cheat codes for Chiron.

那么，我们来谈一个具体的例子吧。

So what are the So so let's talk maybe about an instance to give a concrete example.

我的意思是，这让我立刻想到你十岁时的例子，那时你受伤了，还打着石膏。

I mean, I Obviously, that makes me think of of your example when you were 10 of, you know, having that injury and being in that cast.

但正因如此，你去了图书馆，大量阅读，偶然发现了一本占星书，从而通过这种方式开启了对占星学的接触。

But then as a result of that, you know, going to the library and reading a lot and coming across an astrology book and having that sort of initiation into astrology through that.

今年早些时候，占星师罗伯特·佐勒去世时，也有一个类似的例子。

There's a similar example earlier this year when the astrologer Robert Zoller passed away.

我发布了一段十年前采访他的旧视频，他也曾提到自己小时候体弱多病。

I released an old interview that I did with him ten years ago, he similarly talked about being a very sickly child.

他唯一能从中获得快乐的事情，就是阅读童话故事之类的东西。

One of the only things that brought him pleasure that he could do was just read fairy tales and things like that.

正是通过这些，他最终走进了占星学。

And through that, he eventually got into astrology.

这似乎触及了你所谈论的核心部分之一，即有时人们经历痛苦或苦难，但某种东西却能让他们找到其他事物，最终这些事物帮助他人，或成为他们个人旅程的一部分。

That seems to get to the core of sort of part of what you're talking about in terms of sometimes people having a pain or experience of suffering, but something that allows them then to find something else that then eventually they're able to use to help other people in some way or that becomes part of their personal journey.

绝对如此。

Absolutely.

是的。

Yes.

与此相关的另一种情况是，当你找到凯龙星的位置时，它有时会表明我们非常擅长为他人做的事情，却无法为自己做到。

Variant on that theme is that where you find Chiron, it does sometimes indicate things that we do extremely well for others but we can't do for ourselves.

这就像凯龙星无法治愈自己的伤口。

That's like Chiron not being able to heal his wound.

这些情况从令人啼笑皆非的小困扰，到真正重大的人生模式不等，而这些模式往往最终会引发危机。

And you know those things range from just amusing and bothersome to really, really big life patterns that often do eventually come to a crisis.

那些总是为他人付出却无法为自己做到的人，有时必须彻底扭转方向，才能保障自己的生存。

The person who's doing for others what they can't do for themselves has to kind of turn the ship around for their own survival sometimes.

是的。

Yeah.

比如我想到了一种情况，Chiron与第七宫的关系有关，可能有人从事婚姻咨询，但自己却在人际关系中挣扎，确实如此。

Like I'm thinking of, let's say, like a Chiron connected with relationships at the seventh house and maybe somebody that does marriage counseling for other people, but who themselves maybe struggles with relationships Exactly.

一个原因是

One reason or

事实上，我甚至能想到几个完全符合这种情况的例子。

In fact, I can even think of a couple of examples of exactly that.

更令人动容的是，她正是因为与丈夫经历了一次极其痛苦的分离后，才投身于婚姻辅导工作。

And very poignantly, who got into the the marriage guidance counseling work on the back of an extremely painful separation from her husband.

嗯。

Mhmm.

从某种意义上说，她内心始终带着未愈合的伤痛。

And so in a sense, she remains subliminally brokenhearted.

她确实能够帮助很多人。

And she is genuinely able She has helped a lot of people.

你知道，这似乎就是事情的发生方式和运作机制。

And you know, that seems to be what happens and how it works.

而更深层次的觉醒可能是：天啊，我到底在做什么？

And then a further level of awakening might well be, it's like, wow, what am I doing?

需要将这种能量重新导向，将自己纳入疗愈的场域中。

And needing to redirect that energy to include oneself in the kind of healing field.

这非常普遍，事实上，通常在凯龙星回归时就会发生，你知道吗？

That's a very common And in fact, often that happens around the Chiron return, you know?

是利用它来帮助他人，还是最终尝试将它转向内在，疗愈自己的伤口？

The process of using that to help other people or the process of finally trying to turn that inside and trying to heal one's own wounds?

两种情况都有可能。

It can be either.

我注意到，当人们从事任何形式的疗愈工作时，凯龙星回归期间往往是这种使命感浮现的高峰期。

What I've noticed around the Chiron return, if people have a healing vocation of any kind, that's a very common time for it to surface.

虽然在人生后期才突然选择一条疗愈之路听起来似乎有点晚，但大多数人其实一直都知道自己有这份天赋，只是因为这样或那样的原因没有去践行。

Now it might sound kind of late in one's life to be suddenly picking up a healing vocation, but most people have known all along that they had that but for one reason or another didn't follow it.

而在凯龙星回归时，就像是：好吧，现在是时候了。

And at the Chiron return it's like, okay, now.

现在就是时候了，我一定要去做。

It's now or never, and I'm gonna do it.

另一种情况是，那些已经从事任何一种疗愈领域工作的人——我这里说的‘疗愈’是广义的，并不特指某种职业——在到达凯龙星回归时，常常会完全放弃这份工作，或者转行到一个平行但相似的领域，又或者在原有基础上走上一条略有不同的路，比如决定写一本书，或成为培训师等等。

The the other variation is that people who have already been working in any of the fields of healing, I'm using that in a very broad generic way, it's not uncommon for them to get to the Chiron return and either give it up completely or retrain in a parallel but similar field, or take a slightly different road within what they're doing, like maybe decide to write a book or become a trainer, etcetera.

而且无论哪种情况，都会大量地反思自己的工作。

And either way, doing a lot of reflecting, on their work.

而且这种情况非常、非常普遍。

And it's very, very common that.

哦，关于凯龙星回归，我还想提一下。

Oh, and around the Chiron return, this I do want to mention.

当然，我们不能一概而论女性何时进入更年期。

Of course one can't generalize about when women have their menopause.

但我认为，至少根据我所接触过的人的经验来看，平均而言，更年期大约发生在五十岁左右。

But I think it's fair to say that averagely, at least from the experience of people I've spoken with, averagely it's somewhere around fifty years.

所以，如果真是这样，这将是一个非常有用的信息。

So if it is, this is a really useful piece of information.

因为如果更年期与凯龙回归重合，从占星学的角度来看，我们可以这么说：从凯龙回归开始，每一个凯龙相位都是第二次经历。

Because if the menopause coincides with the Chiron return, astrologically what we can say is that around that time because every single Chiron aspect that is experienced from the Chiron return onwards is second time round.

所以，这不仅仅是五十岁这个年龄点，而是你星图中每一个天体的每一个凯龙相位都会重新经历一次。

So it's the Chiron return of every single aspect to every single thing on your chart, not only the fifty year old thing.

因此，这与凯龙相关的意义在于，存在一种非凡的重复与经验回收过程。

So what's relevant about that is that there is this extraordinary process of recapitulation, of recycling experience with Chiron.

顺便说一句，凯龙并不是一颗行星，但为了简便，我称它为行星。

By the way, he's not the only planet he's he's not a planet, but for brevity, I call him a planet.

如果你深入观察，你会发现这并不仅仅是凯龙独有的现象。

He's not the only planet where you will find this if you look deeply enough.

土星在某种程度上也有类似的表现。

You can find it with Saturn to some degree.

但凯龙的这种现象非常精确，有时甚至精确得令人难以置信。

But it's it's very precise with Chiron, almost ridiculously so sometimes.

在凯龙回归后的最初几年里，重复出现的自然是童年时期的经历。

And in the first few years after the Chiron return, of course what's repeating is the period of the precognitive life.

所以是在出生之后、学会说话和走路之前。

So after birth and before we've learned to speak and and and walk.

因此，那段时期的记忆，大多数人几乎完全不记得，因为当我们开始说话和行动时，大脑的神经连接就会发生改变，进入认知阶段。

So the memories from those times, most people don't remember much from that time at all because it's literally like as we begin to speak and move, it changes the wiring of our brain, to the cognitive stage.

那些记忆通常存在，或者在必要时可以被唤起，也可能在梦境中出现，等等。

And those memories are often present or can be retrieved if necessary or occur in dreams, whatever.

但真正非常早期的经历，包括产前阶段，就像奇龙的过程为这些记忆打开了大门，程度取决于个人成长过程中是否需要触及它们。

But the really, really early stuff, even including prenatal, it's like the Chiron process opens the door on that to the extent that it might be needed in one's process.

这意味着，有些模式可能源自那时，至今仍在阻碍你、让你痛苦，或让你无法理解。

Meaning there might be patterning that originates back there, that is still holding you back, or that you are still hurting from, or you don't understand.

因此，奇龙的过程——如果你以非常直接的方式面对它，通过疗愈实践、冥想等——能给你机会拓展意识，足够深入地去真正体验那些存在的一切，即使你还不理解。

So the Chiron process, if you meet it in a very straight up way with healing practices, meditations, etcetera, which give you the chance to open your consciousness wide enough to really, really experience what's there, even if you don't understand it.

这非常神奇，因为帷幕被掀开了，你得以看见、感受并彻底明白当时究竟发生了什么。

It is amazing because it's like the veil is pulled back and you get to see and feel and know absolutely what was going on.

顺便说一句，这种现象并不会停止。

And by the way, this doesn't stop.

这将伴随你的一生。

That will go on for the rest of your life.

任何正在经历觉醒或疗愈之旅的人，都会发现我所说的这个凯龙过程是一个重要的伴随者。

Any of you who are on a journey of awakening or healing, you will find that this Chiron process I'm talking about is it's a major accompaniment.

这就像是我们的友善半人马始终陪伴在我们的旅程中，你知道的。

It's like having our friendly centaur coming along with us in our process, you know.

你处理自己内在过程的方式，几乎肯定会随着凯龙回归而发生改变。

And the way that you work with your own process, pretty much guaranteed to change around the Chiron return.

因为在凯龙回归之前，我们大多数人只想要解决它。

Because pre Chiron return, most of us, all we want is just fix it.

我们想解决它，然后变得正常。

We wanna fix it and be normal.

或者变成我们以为自己应该成为的样子，总之就是想解决它。

Or be whatever it is we think we should be but just to fix it.

对许多人来说，只有在凯龙回归发生之后，我们才真正明白：哇，这段旅程本质上是关于接纳当下的一切。

And for many people, it's only once the Chiron return has happened that we really get to understand, wow, this whole journey is truly about accepting what is.

我知道这听起来像陈词滥调，但想想Chiron与心脏主题的关系。

I know that sounds like a cliche, but think, think of the of the heart theme with Chiron.

再补充一点神话细节。

Also, a little mythic detail.

曾经有一种叫格里芬的鸟，每天都会啄食普罗米修斯的肝脏，嗯。

There there was this bird called a griffin which used to peck out the liver of Prometheus every day Mhmm.

然后到了晚上，肝脏又会重新长出来。

And then it would grow back again in the night.

因此，他被锁在岩石上，这已经够惨了。

And so there he was chained as if it wasn't enough to be chained on this rock.

他还得忍受这只鸟啄食他的肝脏。

He had this bird pecking his liver.

在位置转变之后，这种鸟名叫格里芬，它被一箭穿心，彻底除去了。

And, after the changing places, the griffin is the name of this bird, it was shot through the heart and gotten rid of.

所以从象征意义上讲，这就像我们过程中必须应对的那种挥之不去的自我批评声音。

So that's even symbolically, it can be like that's a a nagging self critical voice that we to work with in some way or another in in our process.

而在奇龙回归之际，所有这些能量似乎开始发生变化。

And it's as if around the Chiron return, the whole energy of all that starts to change.

仿佛疗愈在各个层面上开始发生，包括与合适的疗愈者建立联系——无论哪种流派，或是遇到某个人，他们通过一本书、一种疗愈实践等方式为你提供了至关重要的线索。

And it's as if healing begins to occur on whatever level, that including making contact with the right healer, the right, of whatever persuasion, meeting somebody who has a really important clue for you in the form of a book or a healing practice and so forth.

你能感受到自己正处在疗愈的洪流之中。

And you can feel you're on the stream of healing.

这是一种巨大的恩典。

And it's a tremendous grace.

是的。

Yeah.

而且你会让

And you makes

你知道，这是一种转变，从‘我必须修复这个问题’，转变为意识到我们的整个人生其实是一段疗愈之旅，并越来越熟练、越来越慈悲、富有同理心地去面对它。

know, it's this shift from I just have to fix this, to recognizing that in fact our whole life is a healing journey, and becoming more and more skilled and more and more gracious and empathic about how we meet that.

这也会带来将疗愈的礼物传递给他人的能力。

That's what brings also the gift of healing to other people.

所以，这就是我对‘受伤的疗愈者’这一概念的一些理解方式。

So that's some of the ways I would understand this notion of the wounded healer.

这太精彩了。

That's brilliant.

这很有道理，因为只有在经历了最初的五十年，当行进中的凯龙星完成了一整圈运行，经历了它与你命盘中凯龙星位置以及其他行星所有可能的相位之后，你才能真正回望并反思这一完整周期，从而理解它。

And that makes sense just because it's only after that first fifty years that transiting Chiron has done a complete lap all the way around your experienced all the possible aspects and permutations of Chiron's aspects both to its natal position as well as to other planets in your chart that you can really look back and reflect on that full cycle and and understand it.

没错。

Exactly.

没错。

Exactly.

先生。

Mr.

这里有一个重要的联系。

Link here, an important one.

如果我们能够培养出顺应这场神圣疗愈之旅的能力，因为我们每个人在某种程度上都会在生活中经历痛苦，这不仅仅是关于修复问题，更是关于以慈悲之心允许能量以它们所需的方式流动，这样说你能明白吗？

If we if we develop the capacity to roll with this sacred healing journey that we're all on, because every single person in some way or another is gonna suffer in their lives, And it's not just about fixing it, it's about the compassion to let the energies roll in the way that they need to, if that makes sense.

我现在注意到，进入更年期的女性，如果已经培养或正在开始这种实践，往往会出现较少的严重经前紧张、情绪波动、潮热等症状。

Now I've noticed that around the menopause, women who do have that kind of a practice, have cultivated that or are starting to, seem to have less symptoms of terrible premenstrual tension or mood swings or night sweats or any of these things.

似乎那些对自己的过程感到恐惧，或尚未幸运地建立适当支持连接的人，更容易将更年期时那些强烈的身体体验转化为躯体化症状。

And it seems as if people who are really frightened of their own process or haven't yet had the good fortune to make the right connections to support them in that risk somatizing some of the very powerful physical experiences that will come through to a woman, at menopause.

因为如果我们把土星回归的那一年视为一种诞生、重生，那么在此之前的一年就可以看作是对产前阶段的回顾。

Because if we take the year of the Chiron return as a kind of a birth, a rebirth, then we can take the year before that kicks in exact as the recap of the prenatal time.

在这一回顾过程中，可能会出现一些极其奇特的身体感觉。

And there can be some extremely strange physical sensations that come forth when that's recapitulating.

在传统疗愈体系中，人们对产前生命及其意义有着深厚的智慧。

And, you know, in in traditional healing systems, they have huge wisdom about the prenatal life and its significance.

而在西方医学中，虽然也涉及一些相关内容，但处理方式截然不同，往往只关注哪里出了问题，而未必理解其中的精神意义。

And in Western medicine, they do have some of that but approach it in a very different way, basically seeming to always be looking for what's wrong, not perhaps understanding the spiritual significance of what's going on.

如果女性愿意踏上这种疗愈之旅，许多人在面对症状时会得到极大的缓解。

And the process of being beset with symptoms can be hugely alleviated for many women if if they are ready to to undertake this kind of a healing journey.

当然，有些人确实存在需要认真对待的严重症状。

And obviously, some people do really have really symptoms that really need attending to.

所以，我不是建议你直接忽略它们。

So, I'm not recommending that you just ignore them.

但我通过与客户的工作了解到，与自身的宇宙节律建立连接对身体也有好处。

But I I know from working with clients that there's something about connecting in with one's own cosmic rhythms that it does the body good as well.

我们有时会忘记这一点。

We we forget that maybe sometimes.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

有时候确实很难，因为有些疾病可能是心因性的，而其他时候，人们也会有一些独立于心理因素之外的纯粹生理疾病和不适。

It's hard sometimes when certainly there's illnesses that can be psychosomatic in origin, then other times there's sometimes just physical illnesses and ailments that people have that are independent of that to some extent.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我想退一步说。

So I want to back up.

你在书中特别关注并花了大量篇幅讨论的一个概念是，凯龙星所处的宫位可能是生活中最初受阻、受伤或未能充分发挥作用的领域。

One of the things you really focus on in your book and spend a lot of time talking about is just the notion that the house position of Chiron as potentially being an area of life that is initially blocked, wounded, or not functioning in, let's say, top capacity to some extent.

而要理解凯龙星过境周期及其与自身相位的意义，尤其是回溯到它自身时，这一点是关键的起点。

And that being maybe ground zero or the starting point for understanding the transiting Chiron cycle and its aspects especially back to itself is understanding.

我们之前讨论过，并以凯龙星位于第七宫为例，说明了与关系相关的创伤。

So we talked about and we gave an example of like Chiron in the seventh house and wounding surrounding relationships.

但我们能否再谈谈凯龙星在其他宫位的配置？比如，这些配置如何在最初阶段以某种方式体现创伤？或者至少给出一些例子？

But could we talk about some other house placements for example of Chiron and how that might manifest in an initial instance of wounding in some some way or just to give some examples?

是的。

Yes.

我想补充的是，凯龙星星座的守护星所处的宫位也很重要。

The other thing I'd want to add to that is the house position of the ruling planet of Chiron's sign.

这真的能说明很多问题。

That really speaks volumes.

如果你对凯龙星所体现的一些主题有一定了解，或者已经产生了某种内在的共鸣，再结合一点点其他占星知识——比如宫位、星座、相位、守护星之类的内容——就能更深入地理解。

And, you know, it's as if if you understand a bit or have have got a felt connection with Chiron in terms of some of the themes that it embodies and portrays, with a very little bit of astrological of other astrological knowledge, I mean, house sign aspects, dispositor or ruler, that kind of thing.

仅凭这些，你就已经获得了足够的信息，可以开始帮助自己看清了。

With with just that, you've got enough information to begin to help you to see.

因为奇龙表现出来的方式可能差异很大。

Because the manifestations of how Chiron shows can vary a lot.

有趣的是，有时当事人自己根本察觉不到。

And very interesting, sometimes it's as if they're not visible to the person.

他们可能研究过奇龙，读过所有相关书籍，参加过课程，却依然无法理解。

They can have studied Chiron, read all the books, having classes, and they don't get it.

他们就是看不到它。

They're not seeing it.

是的。

Mhmm.

我认为，这在某种程度上是一种防御机制，因为很可能那里有一个被掩盖的痛苦区域。

And that's part of a kind of defense, I think, because it's quite likely that there is perhaps an area of pain that's been covered over there.

它不一定要是具体的创伤，比如我经历过的骨折，或各种形式的虐待创伤等等。

It doesn't have to be a specific actual wound, like in my case a broken bone, or a trauma of abuse of various kinds and so forth.

但这种痛苦可能是存在性的，从本质上、精神上来说，我认为这正是与伟大源头最深层疏离感的体现。

But it can be where there is this kind of existential pain, which fundamentally, spiritually, I feel is like that's where the deepest sense of disconnection from the great source will actually register.

这种疏离感可能通过各种其他表现形式显现，各种怪癖，但本质上是我们对精神源头的深切疏离感。

Now that can show itself through all kinds of other things, all kinds of other quirks, but at base it's our felt alienation from our spiritual source.

而疗愈就源于此。

And that's where the healing comes from.

因此，没有一种固定的方法，甚至没有一种唯一正确的方式。

And so there's not one way of doing that or not even one right way.

但关键是，当我们面对自己挣扎的问题时，会一层层地剥开，再剥开，最终意识到：哇，原来这就是底层真正的东西。

But it's that, you know, where the thing that we struggle with, we gradually peel back the layers and peel back the layers and then realize, wow, you know, this is what's underneath this.

而在这里，我们就有了可以着手处理的东西。

And there we have something to work with.

比如，这是我个人生活中的一个例子。

Like for example, this is an example from my own life.

我的海王星位于射手座，我想我之前提到过。

So I have Chiron in Sagittarius, I think I mentioned that.

我的木星与我的I see非常接近合相，顺便说一下，我称之为I don't see，因为通常情况就是这样，它隐藏着，你知道吗？

And my Jupiter is very closely conjunct to my I see, which by the way I call the I don't see because that's often how it is, it's lying hidden, you know?

对。

Right.

这在我生命中是一条非常具体的轨迹。

And it was very specific whole trail in my life for me.

正如我提到的，我出生在罗得西亚，后来它变成了津巴布韦。

So as I mentioned, I was born in Rhodesia, which became Zimbabwe.

从某个层面看，见证罗得西亚转变为津巴布韦，就像经历了一次重生。

On one level, witnessing that change from Rhodesia to Zimbabwe, it was like an experience of rebirth.

一个全新的国家诞生了，一切都发生了变化。

There was a newborn country and everything, everything had changed.

仿佛几十年、几个世纪的历史都被一扫而空。

And it was as if decades, centuries of history had just been washed away.

绝对令人欣喜若狂，真的。

Absolutely, ecstatically wonderful, really.

经历了太多太多有趣的经历，学到了很多很多，等等等等。

Had so many so many interesting experiences, learned so much, etcetera, etcetera.

当津巴布韦的情况开始恶化时，我无法形容我经历了什么。

Now when things started to go wrong in Zimbabwe, I can't begin to tell you what I went through.

我感觉自己与这一切毫无距离。

It was like I had no sense of distance from this.

我深深认同于位于第四宫的凯龙星 ruler，你知道的，第四宫代表家、国家、家庭等等。

I was profoundly identified to the ruler of Chiron on the fourth house, you know, the home, the country, the family, and all that.

我不断地哭泣。

And I cried endlessly.

我进行了各种仪式。

I did rituals.

我做了各种各样的事情。

I did all kinds of things.

后来，在一次UAC活动中，我和那位了不起的占星师布兰努斯·德梅特拉·乔治进行了一次对话。

And then it was at one UAC I had a conversation with the wonderful astrologer Branus Demetra George.

你认识她吗？

You know her?

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

她对我说，有一件事我没法模仿口音，你得自己想象。

And she said to me, she said one thing I can't do the accent, you'll have to imagine it.

她说，你和我有一样的经历，那就是故土之痛。

She said, one thing you and I share, it's homeland pain.

她说，那些没有失去故土的人，像她那样失去的人，根本无法理解这种感受。

And she said, people who haven't lost their homeland, as she had, said they can't understand what this is.

但她说了，你懂，我也懂。

But she said you understand it and I understand it.

这叫做故土之痛。

It's called homeland pain.

我从未忘记过这句话。

I never forgot that.

一旦我意识到这一点，就经历了一个漫长的过程，需要向内工作，重新找回曾投入在这其中的生命能量。

And it's as if once I identified that, there was a long, long period of needing to work inwardly to reclaim the energy of necessity that had been invested in that.

因此，我接触的很多客户都带有家园之痛，或者曾面对过与种族背景相关的痛苦议题，比如他们属于混血种族，或对自身的种族起源感到困惑等等。

And so I tend to get a lot of clients who have homeland pain or who have worked with very painful issues to do with, either they are mixed race or there's an issue there about racial origins and how they feel about that and so forth.

这一切都与第四宫密切相关。

Very, very fourth house, all of it.

所以，凯龙星的守护星位于第四宫。

So that's the ruler of Chiron in the fourth.

是的。

Yeah.

尽管我并不常使用小行星，但这并不是因为我否定它们的存在——因为我有凯龙星与天底合相。

One of the things even though I don't work a lot with asteroids, it's not that I don't believe in them because I have Chiron conjunct the IC.

虽然这并不是我星盘中唯一能体现这一点的因素，传统或古典占星学也能看出，但凯龙星与天底合相，加上我五岁时父亲去世，而天蝎座掌管天底，这让我早早经历了类似失去父母的创伤，这种体验与凯龙星的受伤本质高度契合，我对此深有共鸣。

While it's not the only thing in my chart that would indicate this and you can see it traditionally or classically as well, but having Chiron conjunct the IC, losing my father at the age of five to Cancer that being like an early experience of just like, let's say, loss of a parent as being like an early Chiron type experience of wounding or what have you, I could identify with that.

我的意思是，还有其他星盘配置，比如太阳与土星合相，或者其他类似的情况，这些也很重要，但有趣的是，小行星如何为解读增添额外的细微差别。

I mean, there's other placements like having the Sun conjunct Saturn or other things like that that are also relevant, but it's interesting how the asteroids can layer on additional nuances of interpretation on

我认为是增添了更多细节。

top I of think additional detail.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我还发现关于凯龙星，实际上任何半人马星体都像是通往冥界、死亡领域的门户。

What I've also found about Chiron, it's as if Chiron In fact, any of the centaurs, they're like portals to the underworld, the realm of death.

因此，在我们生命的某个时刻，我们都会意识到死亡和肉体的有限性。

So at one or other point in our lives, all of us become aware of death and physical mortality.

而当凯龙星位于第四宫时，我猜想那正是你年幼时经历的失去。

And with Chiron there in the fourth, I would imagine that it was that very young experience of loss.

无论你的家人是否用这样的说法谈论过这件事，这可能都为你打开了通往那扇门。

This may have opened the doors to that whether or not the rest of your family spoke about it in those terms, you know?

对。

Right.

是的

Yeah.

所以这些是你情况中的具体例子，比如你的出生地、居住环境、家园，以及祖先等其他第四宫主题；对我而言，则是父母这样具体的事物。

So those are really concrete examples of like in your case, your place of origin and living situation and homeland and also ideas of ancestry and things like that as other fourth house topics or for me concrete things of like parents.

如果我们谈论其他宫位，第一宫似乎很明显，可能涉及身体问题或健康困扰，确实如此。

If we're talking about other houses, the first house seems a little obvious that it could be more bodily issues or struggling with health Indeed.

或者疾病问题

Or illness issues

确实如此。

Indeed.

通常当凯龙星位于第一宫时，这个人会与自己的受伤感互动，无论这种受伤是否明显。

It's often with Chiron in the first house, the person is often engaging with their own sense of woundedness whether it's obvious or not.

我的意思是，有些人甚至可能有身体上的缺陷，即使他们成功地隐藏了它，但这种缺陷仍限制了他们的生活。

I mean some people even might have a physical deformity that they even might successfully hide but which limits their life.

类似这样的情况在这里往往非常具体。

And things like that is often very specific there.

如果海王星落在第七宫，可能会出现一种总是照顾他人的主题。

And then if it's Chiron in the seventh house, that can be a theme where the person is always looking after other people.

他们甚至可能将此发展为职业。

They might have even made a profession out of it.

如果不是，那就值得深入探究。

If not, it's something to be curious about.

因为关于海王星能量的表达方式，通常存在一种三元结构。

Because there is, you know, the, there's a kind of triad around Chiron's energy in terms of how it might express.

一种是疗愈者，一种是受苦者。

There's the healer, and there's the one who is afflicted.

还有一种是施加痛苦的人。

And then there's also the one who does the afflicting.

就像这个，我忘了那个提出这个观点的人的名字。

So like that I forget the name of the guy who did this.

这是上世纪七十年代的事情了。

This is back from the nineteen seventies now.

记住，受害者、迫害者和疗愈者。

Remember, victim and persecutor and healer.

你还记得吗？

Do you remember that?

还是说是疗愈者？

Or was it healer?

受害者和迫害者。

Victim and persecutor.

不管怎样，现在这个三角关系有了新的名称。

Anyway, this it's now called something around the triangle.

你在凯龙星周围确实能看到这种模式。

You do see that around Chiron.

当我以更抽离的方式进行研究时，不再仅仅基于我自己的经历和客户的情况，我感到非常震惊。

I was horrified to when I was researching in a bit more detached way, not just with my own process and my clients and so forth.

我相当震惊地发现，一些著名的连环杀手都拥有极其强烈的凯龙星配置，但他们的方式是通过造成伤害。

I was pretty shocked to find a number of famous serial killers who all had extremely strong chirons, but they did it by doing the wounding.

正是在那时，我真正开始理解，大多数人施加伤害，都是基于他们自己未愈合的创伤。

And it was really then that I really began to understand how in the main, people who wound do so on the back of their own wounding.

所以，当内心存在未被处理的痛苦时，就会有一种本能反应，把这种痛苦转嫁出去，让别人也感受到你的感受。

So when there's pain there that just isn't processed, there's a kind of knee jerk reaction to put it out there to make somebody feel how you feel.

好的。

Okay.

而这一切都可能是完全无意识的。

And that can all be totally unconscious.

未被处理的痛苦最危险的地方就在于，它会去伤害别人。

And that is the most dangerous thing about unprocessed suffering is it will go and do it to somebody else.

这是一个非常有趣的观点。

That's a really interesting point.

如果压力不断升级，而这正是历史的构成方式。

If pressure ratchets up, and of course, that's what history's made of.

你知道，战争爆发时，人们被鼓动成英雄，而他们之所以被动员，是因为某些人出于贪婪、金钱、剥削、领土等动机想要夺取控制权，或者出于各种内部斗争。

You know, wars come and people are pumped up as heroes, and they're paid by people who just, you know, want to take over from a motivation of greed, greed and money and exploitation and, you know, territory and all that kind of thing, or internecine struggles of one kind or another.

这是一种整个的放血式行为，让人们通过将自己内心未解决的痛苦施加给他人来发泄出来。

And that it's a whole kind of bloodletting thing which brings the opportunity for people to just act out the unresolved pain that they feel inside themselves by inflicting it on somebody else.

这是一个非常有趣的观点。

That's a really interesting point.

所以就奇龙式的创伤而言，并不是每个人长大后都会接纳这个伤口，然后成为萨满去帮助他人。

So it means in terms of Chironic wounding, not everybody's gonna like grow up and take that wound and then like become a shaman and start helping other people.

有些人只是会以一种负面的方式，去对他人做出同样的事。

Some people are just going to become the one who does that to other people in a negative sense.

我查了这个三角形，它好像叫卡普曼戏剧三角形。

I looked up the triangle, it looks like it's called the Karpman drama triangle.

三个角色分别是受害者、拯救者和迫害者。

And the three pieces are like the victim, the rescuer, or the persecutor.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yes.

正是如此。

That's exactly it.

好的。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

关于凯龙星，也有一个类似的模式。

So there's a similar one with Chiron.

所以，你知道，从某种角度来看，即使有可能关闭整个世界及其所有战争和纷争，彻底关掉它，可能也需要数百年才能处理掉已经产生的所有痛苦。

And so, you know, from one point of view, even if it was possible to like switch switch off the world and all its wars and everything going on, to just switch it off, it would probably take hundreds of years to process all of the suffering that's already been generated.

从这个意义上说，找到处理自身痛苦的方式，甚至更广泛一点，承担起比自己那份更多的痛苦——无论是通过祈祷、仪式，还是其他任何有意义的方式——都会对我们所生活的整体场域产生影响。

And in that sense, finding the way to process one's own suffering, and perhaps even a bit wider than that, meaning to take on even more than just your own little share, perhaps through prayer, through ritual, through whatever means makes sense, it makes a difference to the whole field in which we live.

这不仅仅是一种信念。

That's that's not just a belief.

我亲眼见过这类事情的实际作用。

I've seen that kind of stuff in action.

我敢肯定，很多听你们的人都有过这种经历，你知道的。

I'm sure a lot of a lot of you listening have, you know?

嗯。

Mhmm.

这种我们可以称之为奇龙奥秘的东西，其实都与痛苦和苦难的体验，以及以某种方式实现疗愈、从而开启意识有关。

And that's the kind of thing that we could call them the the Chironic mysteries, are really all to do with the experience of pain and suffering, and the healing thereof in such a way that there's an opening of consciousness.

这不仅仅是修复一条断掉的胳膊，如果你能理解的话。

It's not just about fixing a broken arm, if that makes sense to you.

是的，这很有道理。

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

我们还没谈到的最后一个角度，对我来说稍微更神秘一些，就是第十宫——当奇龙与中天合相或位于第十宫时，这种创伤可能是什么样的。

The last angle we haven't talked about that is a little bit more mysterious for me would be the tenth house in terms of what would the wound potentially be with somebody with Chiron conjunct the Midheaven or in the tenth house.

是的。

Yes.

好的。

Okay.