诺埃尔·泰尔，占星师的一生与事业

是吗？

Is it?

好的。

Okay.

我觉得。

I think.

我不知道。

I don't know.

我的麦克风就放在书桌上的两本它的副本上，但我不会去动它来看。

My microphone is sitting on two copies of it right here on my desk, but I'm not gonna move it to look.

对。

Right.

我太喜欢了。

I love that.

所以，是的。

So, yeah.

所以，那是他的主要著作，也是他篇幅最大的书之一。

So he That was his main book and it's one of his largest books.

而且，他说，据说他只用了一周就写完了。

And yeah, he was reputed to have written it in a week, he said.

这真的太疯狂了。

That's really crazy.

他的作品是以综合与咨询为模型的。

And his was modeled after synthesis and counseling.

他很快就写好了这门课程。

And he wrote the course up real fast.

我记得有一天他给我打电话，说他有个想法要设计一门课程，结果一周后就完成了。

I remember he called me one day and told me he had an idea about creating a course and then like a week later it was done.

天啊。

Boy.

好的。

Okay.

所以他很有主动性，而且能把事情做成。

So he had initiative and he got stuff done.

他最早在1970年代与Llewellyn合作推出的系列是《占星术的原则与实践》，共十二卷。

And his first series that he started with Llewellyn back in the 1970s was the Principles and Practice of Astrology which was 12 volumes.

那是他的第一个系列，也是你第一次接触他的作品时带走的那套，对吧？

That was his first set and that's the one that you said that you walked out with when you first came across his work, right?

是的。

Yep.

就是这套。

That's it.

我最初拿到的是第五卷，那是我第一次在占星学中看到如此深入的心理学引用。

The volume that I went to initially was volume five which was the first time that I ever saw any deep psychological references to anything in astrology.

我的星盘里有辛格顿火星落在第十一宫。

And I have in my horoscope Singleton Mars in the eleventh house.

我以前听过的占星师都说：你会和朋友起冲突，会吸引军人之类的人，全是那些老生常谈的套话。

All I ever heard from astrologers was, You're going to be contentious with friends and you're going to attract people in the military and all of the standard schlock.

我不是一个爱争执的人。

And I'm not a contentious person.

如果你跟我闹，我就让你变成卡斯珀幽灵。

If you act up with me, I simply turn you into Casper the ghost.

你就不存在了。

You don't exist anymore.

我不打算争论。

I'm not gonna argue.

我不打算打架或胡闹。

I'm not gonna fight or get silly.

他在那本书里对第十一宫有解释。

He had an explanation in that book for the eleventh house.

那时，我已经读了七年的书了。

And for the first time at that point, I had been reading books for seven years or so.

第一次，我想：哇，这下说得通了。

For the first time, like, wow, now that makes sense.

然后我开始研究所有其他强调第十一宫的星座图。

And then I started looking at all the other horoscopes that had eleventh house emphasized.

第一次，当我无法理解朋友、希望和愿望时，我却能弄明白这些事情了。

And for the first time, I could make sense of stuff when I couldn't make sense of friends, hopes, and wishes.

有人的土星在第十一宫，这和希望与愿望有什么关系？

Somebody has Saturn in the eleventh house, what's that have to do with hopes and wishes?

我以前一直不明白。

I never understood it.

但读完那章里的这段内容后，我想：天啊，这太精彩了。

But after reading that little bit in that chapter, said, Oh man, this is brilliant.

这就是为什么我买下了整套系列。

And that's why I got the whole series.

你提了一个很好的观点，巴西尔，因为他提出的第十一宫理论也改变了我的人生。

You you bring up a good point Basil because that eleventh house orientation that he came forward, that theory that he proposed changed my life too.

他强调第五宫代表给予爱的能力，而第十一宫则关乎被爱的特质以及你接受爱的能力。

So he focused on the fifth house being love given, the ability to to express love, and the eleventh house about lovability and your ability to receive love.

所以他的理论是，如果第十一宫的守护星处于高度发展张力状态，或者第十一宫内的行星处于高度发展张力状态，那么这可能暗示着关于可被爱性的议题，需要将其作为你人生使命来修习。

So his theory was if the eleventh house ruler was under high developmental tension or if a planet in the eleventh house was under high developmental tension, then there were perhaps the suggestions of lovability issues needing to work on that as your life purpose.

这简直是革命性的，而且清晰得令人震撼，就在那一刻彻底改变了我的占星方向。

And that was revolutionary and absolutely crystal clear changed the direction of my astrology that one point right there.

是的。

Yep.

太棒了。

Amazing.

精彩至极。

Brilliant.

其中一部分，这将带我们进入下一个关于他方法的章节，但我们现在直接切入应该也没问题，似乎他的关注点之一是向人本主义占星学的转变。

So part of it, and this will start getting us into the next section about his approach, but it's probably fine if we go there at this point, but it seemed like part of his focus was a move towards humanistic astrology.

他受到心理学，尤其是发展心理学的驱动，同时也希望使占星学现代化。

And he was motivated by an interest in psychology, especially developmental psychology, as well as a desire to modernize astrology.

他哈佛背景的一部分，是受到了一位名叫亨利·默里教授所讲授的心理需求理论的影响。

And part of his background from Harvard was being influenced by psychological need theory that was taught by a professor named Henry Murray.

但我想这也可以追溯到拉斯洛的需求层次理论之类的东西。

But I guess this also goes back to like Laszlo's hierarchy of needs and things like that.

但这似乎在某种程度上是他心理方法的基石，对吧？

But that was sort of a cornerstone it seemed like of his psychological approach in some sense, right?

完全正确。

Absolutely.

确实是需求理论发生了改变。

It was definitely need theory changed.

这是另一个彻底改变我认知的重大因素，因为当你刚开始接触，读到的那些书基本上都是食谱式的。

It was another major thing that changed everything for me because when you start and you read the books that are available, it's mostly cookbooks.

在我遇到诺埃尔之前，我见过的少数占星师都是看星盘，说你的太阳在第七宫，这意味着什么。

And it ends up being The few astrologers that I saw before I met Noel, it was all look at the horoscope and your Sun is in the seventh house and that means this.

你的太阳受到土星刑克，这意味着什么。

Your Sun is squared by Saturn and that means this.

这只是一个占星课，而不是对你生活的探讨。

And it's an astrology lesson, it's not a discussion about your life.

当他出现时，加入了‘需要’这个词——水星和巨蟹座，不，你不是在情感上思考。

When he came along, adding that one word need, Mercury and Cancer, No, you don't think emotionally.

你需要从情感安全的角度去思考。

You need to think in terms of emotional security.

这改变了所有东西。

That changes everything.

你并没有把一个人的生活局限在你对占星术的固有认知里。

And you're not confining a person's life to what you think you know about astrology.

这种情况太常见了：有些人研究占星书籍两三年后，读到书里的某个说法，之后每次在星盘中看到这个配置，就自动给这个人贴上那个含义的标签。

And that happens all too often that somebody who's been studying astrology books for two or three years will read something in a book and then every time they see that in the horoscope, they just automatically anoint that person with whatever that meaning is.

但这行不通，因为一百个星盘完全相同的人，也不会是同一个人。

And that doesn't work because a 100 people with the exact same horoscopes are not going to be the same person.

其中一个可能是在新西兰当农民，另一个可能生在布拉德·皮特和安吉丽娜·朱莉的家庭，或者其他任何情况。

One could have been a farmer in New Zealand, the other one could have been born to Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie or whatever the case may be.

但他提出的观点是，你必须把星盘应用到实际生活的人身上，而不是反过来。

But the idea that he came up with is that you have to apply the horoscope to the life of the person living it and not the other way around.

是的。

Yes.

他还说，作为占星师，我们的工作不是描述性格。

And he also said our job as astrologers is not to describe personality.

作为占星师，好的占星学是帮助他们理解自己需要怎样的满足，如何化解星盘中的紧张，如何成长进化，成为星盘所能呈现的最好版本。

Our job as astrologers, good astrology is helping them understand how they need fulfillment and how they can resolve tension in their chart, how they can evolve and grow to become the best version of their chart.

因此，那种坐下来向客户描述性格的做法，并不符合他所教授的模式。

So this tendency to sit a client down and describe personality to them didn't fit the model that he taught.

好的。

Okay.

所以，这很可能与另一件事有关，那就是对他而言，最重要的是与客户进行一场有意义的咨询或对话，让咨询真正改变他们的生活。

And and so that was probably then tied in with this other thing which is that it seemed like the most important thing for him was having a meaningful consultation or a meaningful conversation with the client so that the consultation would change their life.

而部分由于这一点，他更倾向于将这些咨询称为‘咨询’而非‘解读’。

And partially, as a result of that, he preferred referring to them as consultations rather than readings.

是的，完全正确。

Yes, absolutely.

因为‘占星阅读’暗示的是一方单向的交流，而‘占星咨询’则是双方建立连接，占星师借此了解客户是如何生活他们的生活的。

Because a reading infers a one way conversation and a consultation is the two people connecting and the two people, the astrologer learning how the client is living their life.

是的。

Yeah.

这有着巨大的差别。

It's a big, big difference.

对。

Yeah.

直到昨晚我才意识到，我在2000年代初就从他的教导中内化了这一点，过去二十年来我一直如此，却从未意识到这种倾向的来源——那就是我更倾向于称它们为‘咨询’而非‘阅读’。

That's something I didn't realize until last night that I had internalized from his teachings in the early two thousands and have for the past twenty years that I never recognized until last night where I got that from and also preferring to refer to them as consultations instead of readings.

嘿，克里斯，让我打断你一下，讲个小故事。

Hey, Chris, let me interrupt you with a short story for a second.

当然。

Sure.

当我们还在南非的时候，那里有个类似《今夜秀》的节目，诺埃尔被邀请上了那个节目。

When we were in South Africa, there was the equivalent of The Tonight Show and Noel was asked to be on that show.

当然，他们邀请我参加。

Of course, I was asked to be there.

我们当时正在推广这个项目，还有各种相关的事情。

We were rolling out the program and all that stuff.

因此，这个节目让我接到了很多业务。

So as a result of that show, I got a lot of things going on.

我在那里接待的第一个客户是一位黑人非洲人。

And the first client that I had down there was a black African.

我说黑人非洲人，是因为当人们提到非洲时，总会以为所有人都是黑人，但事实并非如此。

I say black African because when people say Africa, you think everybody's black, but it's not true.

南非的白人数量比任何其他群体都多。

And South Africa has more white people than anything else.

我的第一个客户是一位黑人非洲人。

First client was a black African.

你要明白，这位男士是在种族隔离制度下长大的。

Now understand, this guy was raised in apartheid.

你不被允许学习识字，这就是种族隔离。

You're not allowed to learn how to read or it's apartheid.

他当时在一家便利店工作，给汽车加油等等。

And he was working in a convenience store pumping gas and so forth.

所以他来到电视台找我，说想跟我聊聊他的星座运势。

So, he approached me at the TV station, said he wanted to talk to me about his horoscope.

当他给我提供数据时，我从日期上发现这和比尔·克林顿的出生日期完全一样。

And when he gave me the data, I knew from the date that it was the same as Bill Clinton.

但当我排好星盘后，发现由于经纬度的差异，星盘几乎完全一致。

But then when I did the chart, the chart was as identical as could be based on differences in the latitude and longitude.

这个人的星盘里只有一个行星和一个宫位是比尔没有的，除此之外，两人的星座运势几乎一模一样。

This guy had one planet and a house that Bill didn't have, but otherwise, it was pretty much the same horoscope.

我常拿这个例子来问自己：如果这个男人和比尔·克林顿坐在我面前，我真的会对他们说同样的话吗？

And I use this as an example of like what was I gonna If I had this guy and Bill Clinton sitting in front of me, I'm gonna say the same things to both of them?

这个家伙在种族隔离的环境下一无所有地成长起来。

This one guy came up on apartheid with nothing.

他根本没有任何机会做成任何事。

He just had no shot at doing anything.

这些正是作为占星师你首先必须关注的事情。

And these are the kinds of things that you have to look at first as an astrologer.

如果你只是假设这个人会像书中描述的那样，那你就会出丑。

If you just assume that this person is going to be what you read in a book, you can get egg on your face.

这是个很好的例子。

That's a great example.

对。

Yeah.

诺埃尔非常强调，一个人的社会、经济、文化以及其他生活背景都很重要。

So that's something Noel emphasized a lot that the social and economic and cultural and other contexts of the person's life matter.

你在解读星盘时必须考虑这些因素，因为两个人即使出生在完全不同的环境或家庭背景下，他们对星盘的反应和成长方式也可能截然不同。

You have to take that into account when delineating a chart because you can have two people born in completely different contexts or different family upbringings and they're going to respond to that chart or grow into it in ways that can be radically different.

是的。

Yes.

这引出了自由意志的问题，因为仅从星盘来看，你无法知道他们是如何活出自己的星盘的，直到你与他们交谈为止，因为他们确实有责任在自由意志中选择以最高层次或阴影层次来生活。

It brings up the issue of free will because cannot From looking at the chart, you don't know how they are living their chart until you talk to them because they do have a role to play in free will in choosing to live it at the highest level or the shadow level.

即使拥有美好的童年，即使父母优秀、一切唾手可得，你仍然可以选择以阴影层次来生活。

Even with a great early life, even with great parents and everything handed to you, you could still choose to live your life in the shadow level.

因此，我认为，你必须与客户建立联系，以确定他们是如何生活的，而不是提前做出假设。

So you have to connect with the client in my opinion, in my opinion to determine how they are living their life and not assume ahead of times.

这就是为什么在课程中，诺埃尔提出的一个词彻底改变了我——当我提交第一份作业时，他用红笔标满了批注，还教训了我一顿，因为我没有使用‘暗示’这个词，而那确实改变了我的人生。

That's why the word in the course, the other word that Noel brought forward that really changed things for me when I sent in my first lesson and he put red marks all over it and I got a little talking to because I didn't use the word suggest and boy did that change my life.

所以，当你看星盘时，你会说，比如，泰尔先生，

So you look at the chart and you say, you know, Mr.

你的星盘中月亮与金星相对，这暗示着你拥有极大的魅力。

Tyl, you have Moon opposite Venus in your chart and this suggests a great deal of charm.

这暗示着这样或那样的特质。

This suggests this, that or the other.

这是一种非常尊重客户的方式，而不是直接说‘你就是这样的、那样的’。

And that is a very respectful way to approach the client as opposed to saying, you are this, that, or the other.

所以‘暗示’这个词真是太棒了。

So that word suggest is so wonderful.

所以‘暗示’意味着某种可能性，而不是直接断定这就是、那是或别的什么。

So suggest, placement suggests something instead of that it means this, this, and this.

嗯。

Mhmm.

然后客户会确认这一点。

And then the client confirms it.

某种程度上，我告诉我的学生，我会先抛出一些线索。

In a sense, what I tell my students is I chum the water a little bit.

也许这个例子不太恰当，但我先提出来，让客户告诉我他们是如何生活的，这样我们才能继续前进。

Maybe that's not a good example, but I throw it out there and I let the client tell me how they're living their life so that we can move forward.

每次咨询其实都像一场即兴演奏。

And then each consultation really is a jam session.

我的意思是，你已经做好了准备，完成了所有计算，但你仍然在即兴发挥，因为你从未见过这位客户，必须在最初的五到十分钟内弄清楚他们是如何生活的，然后调整方向，继续下去。

I mean, you're prepared, you've done all your calculations, but you're jamming because if you've never spoken to that client, you have to figure out in the first five or ten minutes how they're living their life and then redirect and go from there.

诺埃尔在这方面是个专家。

Noel was an expert at that.

他有东方木星。

He had Jupiter oriental.

他非常擅长活在当下并进行引导。

He was really really good at living in that moment and redirecting.

所以听起来，我们在这里已经提出了两个似乎很重要的方面。

So it sounds like two two of the things we're coming up with already here that sound important.

一是他似乎对语言和某些词语的含义非常敏感，尤其是在咨询环境中，这些词如何传达给可能对占星一无所知的客户，以及你使用的某个词与另一个词之间的微妙差异，也许这些词背后还有一些背景。

One is he seemed very sensitive to language and the meaning of certain words, especially when used in like, let's say, consulting setting and how that's gonna come off to a client that may not know anything about astrology and the subtle difference between one word that you might use versus another and maybe that had some background perhaps.

我想你之前当过公关公司之类的职务，然后才成为占星师的。

I think you did like a PR firm or something at one point before he became an astrologer.

是这样吗？

Is that true?

他在经营公关公司的时候就已经是占星师了。

He had already been an astrologer when he had the PR firm.

它在弗吉尼亚州的麦克林。

It was in McLean, Virginia.

我当时就在那里。

I was actually there.

他手下大约有七个人左右。

He had a staff of about, I don't know, seven people or something like that.

当时他写了一本自费出版的书，叫《整体占星学》。

And he had written at the time his only self published book, Holistic Astrology.

我记得他告诉我，那时——我记不清是哪一年了——他说他认为自己的占星事业可能到头了，因为写完《整体占星学》这本书后，他觉得没什么可说的了。

And I remember him telling me that at that point, and I can't remember what year it was, I remember him saying that he thought that his career in astrology might be done because there was nothing else to say after this book, Holistic Astrology.

所以他成立了公关公司，一切都在筹备中，打算转行做这个。

And so he had set up the PR firm and everything and that's what he was going to do.

但命运另有安排。

But destiny had other plans.

没错。

Exactly.

所以那是他自费出版的，那是他唯一一本自费出版的书，之后他一定又回到了Llewellyn出版社？

So that was a self published That was the only book he self published and then he must have gone back to Llewellyn?

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

没错。

Yep.

它

It

他似乎对文字非常敏感。

sounds He like was very sensitive to words.

他是个听觉型的人。

He was an auditory man.

而我更偏向视觉型，我会看到图像，看到画面，用视觉化的语言来描述。

Whereas I'm more of a visionary, I get images, I see pictures, I describe in visual terms.

他是个听觉型的人，你使用的词语非常重要，语言的精确性、语调，这些都是他的准则。

He was an auditory man and the word you used was very important, the precision in words, the tone of your voice, that was his protocol.

对。

Right.

所以这看起来很重要。

So that seems important.

另一件重要的事是专注于提供咨询、帮助客户、改变他们的生活，以及围绕这些方面做各种事情，以提升你的有效性——不仅从技术层面，也从心理学或咨询本身的角度。

And then the other things that's important is the orientation towards doing consultations and helping clients and helping to change their lives and different things surrounding that to optimize your effectiveness, not just from a technical standpoint, but also from a standpoint of psychology or of counseling in and of itself.

他还称自己为艺术家分析师。

And he also called himself an artist analyst.

嗯。

Mhmm.

他在DVD里也说过，我们都是艺术家分析师。

And it's something he says on the DVDs, we are artist analysts.

我觉得这简直太美了，因为它精准地描述了占星学中的创造过程。

And I think that's just absolutely beautiful because it describes the creative process in astrology.

诺埃尔主要依赖右脑运作。

And Noel really operated very much from the right brain.

他是个极其聪明、智力超群的人，但他主要依靠右脑的创造性过程。

He was a brilliant, intellectually brilliant man, but he operated very much from the right brain that creative process.

好的。

Okay.

明白了。

All right.

所以这会带我们进入他的技术层面，但我先想把一些传记内容总结一下。

So that's gonna take us down into his technical thing, but I just wanna wrap up some of the biographical stuff first.

他曾开设一门他称之为占星学大师课程的课程，这是他教授学生的最高级别课程。

So at one point, he began teaching what he called his master's course in astrology where he would This was his highest level course that he would teach to students.

你们知道他大约是什么时候开始教授这门课程的吗？

Do either of you know when he started teaching that approximately?

我记得在南非时收到过他发来的关于这门课程开设的邮件。

I remember in South Africa receiving the email from him of the election of it.

我数据库里 somewhere 还存着那份星盘。

And I have that horoscope in my database somewhere.

那是九十年代末，我记不清具体是哪一年了，但他给我发了一份选举的副本。

It was in the late '90s, I can't remember the exact year, but he sent me a copy of the election.

好的。

Okay.

所以是九十年代末到两千年初。

So late nineties, early two thousands.

他还是AFAN的创始成员和早期主席，AFAN是美国最大的占星组织之一，全称是占星网络协会。

He was also a founding member and early presiding officer, which is their name for president of AFAN, which is the Association for Astrological Networking, is one of the big astrological organizations in The US.

是的。

Yeah.

所以他参与了那项工作。

So he was involved in that.

他还参与组织了第一届占星大会（UAC），我认为是在1987年举行的。

He was also involved in organizing the very first United Astrology Conference or UAC, which took place I believe in 1987.

最后，他在1998年的美国占星大会荣获了天枢奖，以表彰他对提升专业形象的贡献。

And then finally, he received the Regulus Award at the United Astrology Conference in 1998 for enhancing professional image.

天枢奖，克里斯，

The Regulus Chris,

我这里就有这个天枢奖。

I have that Regulus Award here.

他寄给我的。

He sent it to me.

他去世后寄给我的。

It was sent to me after he passed away.

是的。

Yeah.

这实际上就是本集的由来。

That's actually what the genesis of this episode is.

上个月我采访了萨姆·雷诺兹，你被提到是一位著名的黑人占星师，写过一本书，而且很有名。

I did an episode with Sam Reynolds last month and your name came up as a prominent black astrologer who'd written a book and was well known.

然后我去看了你的网站，想看看你最近在忙什么，因为自从我订阅了你的博客后，已经有一段时间没看了。

And then I went and looked at your website just to see what you'd been up to because it had been a little while since I looked at your blog even though I subscribed to it.

我看到了那篇帖子，说他的妻子把诺尔的Regulus奖寄给了你，你还贴了那张1998年你们在联合国占星大会上的合影，展现了你们之间深厚的联系和悠久的渊源。

And I saw that post where his wife had sent you Noel's Regulus Award and you had that picture of you and him at that United Astrology Conference in 1998 just showing the sort of connection and how far back that goes between the two of you.

是的。

Yeah.

我早就知道他会颁给我Regulus奖，但当我收到并打开它的那一天。

And I'll tell you, I knew it was coming, the Regulus Award, but the day I received it and opened it.

那种情绪的冲击非常强烈。

The rush of emotions was intense.

我现在甚至没法谈这件事。

I can't even talk about it now.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我敢肯定，对大多数我交谈过的获得或收到Regulus奖的占星师来说，这一定是他们职业生涯的高光时刻。

And I'm sure that must have been also a highlight of his career for most astrologers I talked to that win or receive a Regulus Award.

这对他们来说意义重大，因为这是一种认可。

That's a really big deal for them because it's recognition.

这是美国占星界所能授予的最高奖项，因为那时所有主要的占星组织都会联合资源举办一场大型的超级会议。

It's the highest award at least in The US astrological community that astrologers can offer because that's when all of the major astrological organizations pool their resources to host one big mega conference.

当你获得这样的奖项时，这确实是你的同行以某种重要方式认可你为社区中的领袖。

And when you receive an award like that, it really is your peers recognizing you in some major way as a leader in the community.

尤其是他获奖的原因，是因为他将占星术主要作为一种商业来推广，而不是呈现那种坐在半暗房间、焚香、摆着水晶球的形象——不幸的是，当人们提到‘占星师’这个词时，世界上大多数人仍然这样想。

Especially for what he received it for which was basically the idea of being the person who presented astrology most as a business instead of projecting the image of somebody sitting in a half darkened room with incense burning and a crystal ball and that kind of thing, which is unfortunately still what the great majority of the world thinks about those kinds of things when the word astrologer comes up.

所以他对此非常非常自豪。

So he very, very proud of that.

我记得他回来时说：‘巴兹尔，你继续努力，总有一天你也会得到一个。’

I remember when he came back, he said, Basil, you keep going, you'll get one one day.

结果呢，我得到了他的那个。

Turned out to be I got his.

太棒了。

That's brilliant.

是的，这个观点非常好，因为这可能是他占星术的一个关键或定义性特征——无论这是有意为之，还是仅仅是他个人特质的自然结果，他都试图为占星术整体塑造一种更专业的形象。

Yeah, that's a really good point because that is then probably one of the key or defining things about his astrology was an attempt to put a more professional spin, whether that happened deliberately or whether it was just a byproduct of who he was as a person, but to put a more professional image on astrology in general.

所以你说得对，从社群那里获得这个奖项，以表彰他提升了占星术的专业形象，这确实非常有意义。

And so you're right that receiving the award from the community for enhancing professional image is probably actually pretty meaningful.

嗯。

Mhmm.

当然。

Absolutely.

嗯。

Mhmm.

好的。

Okay.

太棒了。

Brilliant.

所以，关于他的生平，我主要就这些了。

So that's what I have in terms of his bio for the most part.

我想现在可以转到谈谈他对占星学的 Approach 了。

I'd like to transition, I think, at this point into talking about his approach to astrology.

我想先从他的占星学背景影响者说起。

One of the things I want to start with is who his background influences were as an astrologer.

我已经确认他至少写了30本书。

I did establish he wrote at least like 30 books.

我还看到过其他报告说是40本。

Like I've seen another report saying 40.

但我还没看到一份完整的清单，不清楚确切的数量是多少。

Like I haven't seen a master list yet, I don't know what the correct amount is.

但可以肯定的是，他一生中至少写了30本书，其中包括一本食谱，这倒是个有趣的插曲。

But it's definitely 30 or more books during the course of his lifetime, including one cookbook, which was kind of a funny aside.

他也很喜欢做饭，这也是他生活的一部分，对吧？

He also liked to cook and that was a thing for him as well, right?

是的。

Yes.

对，他确实有这个特点。

Yeah, he has that.

而且我觉得他总说自己写了35本书。

And I think he always said he wrote 35 books.

这是我记得他一直说的话。

That's what I recall him always saying.

不过我还没数过。

I haven't counted them though.

好的。

Okay.

这意味着他几乎可以与丹·鲁德亚尔并列，据我所知，他是20世纪最 prolific 的作者之一，虽然还稍微少一点。

That means really like next to He rivals It's still a little bit below, but almost rivals Dane Rudhyar, was the other most prolific author of the twentieth century as far as I can tell.

但诺埃尔·泰尔绝对位居前列。

But Noel Tyl is definitely up there.

仅凭这一点，就是他如此突出和有影响力的原因之一。

If for no other reason, that's one of the reasons why he was so prominent and influential.

但我有一个问题，作为占星师，他的主要影响者是谁？

But one question I had is who were his primary influences as an astrologer?

Basil，我觉得在你的一篇文章中提到过，是Marc Edmund Jones和Dane Rudhyar。

Basil, I think in one of your articles you say Marc Edmund Jones and Dane Rudhyar.

雷因霍尔德·埃伯廷似乎也是他的一个重要影响者。

It also seems like Reinhold Ebertin was a major influence.

还有Alan Leo，Kathy，你说这可能也是对他影响重大的人。

And then Alan Leo, Kathy, you said that that may have been a major influence for him as well.

是的。

Yes.

当我得到他的藏书时，收到他生前收藏的那些书后，我翻阅了它们，发现他在很多书上都做了笔记、划了线，并在页边写满了批注。

When I got his library, when I received the books that he had in his library and I've been flipping through them, he made notes and underlined and put things in the margin for many of those books.

他划线最多的——更准确地说，是不止一本——是Alan Leo的书。

And the one that he underlined the most or the I should say the ones because it's more than one book were the Alan Leo books.

是的

Mhmm.

我能看出他的理论来源，是什么触发了他的思考。

And I can see where he got his theories, what triggered his thinking.

我能感受到其中的洞见。

I can see the insight.

追随这条线索真是太惊人了。

It's just the most amazing thing to follow this.

现在，我确实拥有他图书馆里的马克·埃德蒙·琼斯的书和鲁德哈尔的书，但标记最多的还是艾伦·利奥的书。

Now, you know, I do have the Marc Edmund Jones books from his library and also, the Rudhyar books, but the ones that have the most markings are the Alan Leo.

也许那些是更早的书，我不确定，但我知道它们对他影响深远，好吧。

Maybe those were the earlier books, I don't know, but I know it influenced him greatly, Okay.

巴希尔，你特别强调了马克·埃德蒙·琼斯和戴恩·鲁德哈尔，这确实标志着占星学开始转向更心理学的方向，尤其是戴恩·鲁德哈尔所倡导的人本主义占星学。

And Basil, think, you really emphasized especially Marc Edmund Jones and Dane Rudhyar, which is definitely when things started going in a much more like psychological direction, especially with Dane Rudhyar and the idea of humanistic astrology.

因为诺尔在60年代和70年代开始他的事业，而这些人的部分人一直到80年代都还活着。

Because Noel got his start in the '60s and '70s, some of these guys were still alive through the 1980s.

我认为马尔克·埃德蒙·琼斯和鲁德拉都对诺埃尔产生了影响，也许诺埃尔曾经见过他们，或者与他们有过某种个人联系。

I think both Marc Edmund Jones and Rudhyar were, So Noel may have actually met them or had some personal connection at some point.

他确实和马尔克·埃德蒙·琼斯有过接触。

He did definitely with Marc Edmund Jones.

他在讲座中经常讲这个故事。

He frequently told this story at lectures.

他曾去马尔克·琼斯的家中拜访，我想那是在美国西部或西北部的太平洋地区。

He went to visit Marc Jones at his place and I think it was in the Pacific area of the country somewhere in the West, maybe Northwest.

正是马尔克·埃德蒙·琼斯告诉他，六分相和三合相会让事物保持原状。

And it was Marc Edmund Jones who said to him that sextiles and trines keep things the way that they are.

而困难相位，比如刑相，才会推动事情发生。

And it's the hard aspects, the squares that make things happen.

那是诺埃尔第一次听到这种说法，而他当时已经这样思考了。

That was the first time that Noel had heard that he was already thinking that way.

但像马尔克·埃德蒙·琼斯这样当时比他资深得多的人，说出这样的话，让他产生了共鸣。

But the fact that somebody like Marc Edmund Jones who was so much more established than him at that time made that kind of a statement that sensed it for him.

即使你只跟诺埃尔学习一个月，你也会明白这种哲学：当你看六合相时，并不认为这是个了不起的东西。

And even if you study with Noel for a month, you know that that's the philosophy that when you look at a trine, you're not looking at this great thing.

我再讲个小故事。

And I'll add this little story.

我13岁的时候，由我年长十岁的哥哥引荐接触了占星学。

I was introduced to astrology when I was 13 years old by my oldest brother, ten years my senior.

他出生于40年代中期，大约是1944、1945、1946年那会儿，当时出现了很多大六合相的情况。

He was born in that section of the 40s, like '44, '45, '46 when there was a lot of grand trine stuff happened.

他有两个大六合相。

He has two grand trines.

所以他经常向我炫耀：‘我有这两个大六合相，将来一定会成为这样那样了不起的人。’

And so he used to brag to me, Oh, I've got these two grand trines and I'm gonna be this and I'm gonna be that.

而你呢，太阳刑克土星，你注定什么都成不了——这基本上就是他的核心观点。

And you've got Sun Square Saturn and you're going to be nothing is basically what it boiled down to.

好的。

Okay.

所以你猜怎么着？

So guess what?

我们共同拥有的所有东西，你猜谁取得了更大的成就？

Everything that we had in common, guess who achieved more?

看吧，你可以继续了。

Ta da, you can continue.

对。

Right.

我觉得你是在1980年左右获奖的，我有点记不清名字了。

I think you won in like 1980 like I'm spacing out the name.

那个奖项叫什么名字？

What was the name of the award?

是的。

Yeah.

我没赢得那个奖。

I didn't win it.

你在说音乐吗？

You talking about music?

是的，你是在谈事业吧？你是那个赢得像……的制作团队的一员？

Are Yeah, you thinking your you're talking career, you're part of the production team that won like

我是制作团队的一员，1980年，我们凭借斯特菲·米尔斯的《从未体验过这样的爱》获得了格莱美最佳R&B歌曲奖。

I was part of a production team and in 1980, we won the Grammy Award for R and B Song of the Year, Stephanie Mills Never Knew Love Like This Before.

不过，这个奖并没有直接颁给我。

Now this wasn't presented to me directly.

在制作公司和制作团队之上还有两个人，但我们当时是罗伯塔·弗莱克的乐队。

There were two people who were ahead of the production company, production team, but we were Roberta Flack's band.

我们和罗伯塔合作出了两首热门歌曲，之后决定离开，于1980年组建了这个制作团队。

We got two hits with Roberta, decided to leave and form this production team in 1980.

这一切都汇聚到了一起。

It's sort of all culminated.

真不错。

Nice.

这太酷了。

That's really cool.

而且，除了你作为占星师的职业外，你还拥有成功的音乐生涯。

And that's a whole side thing as you've had a successful music career in addition to your career as an astrologer.

是的，音乐方面的成就可能更多，因为更容易量化。

Yeah, probably more success in music because it's more quantifiable.

至于占星，我不确定。

And astrology, I don't know.

很难说谁是优秀的占星师呢？

More difficult to like who's a great astrologer?

是那个有五千个客户的占星师吗？

The astrologer that has 5,000 clients?

说说看？

Tell?

不是每个人都能写出三十本占星书籍，或者在几周内写完一本上千页的书，等等。

Not everybody can write 30 astrology books or write a thousand page book in a couple weeks or what have you.

是的

Yeah.

对

Right.

当你每天都在一线与客户打交道时，很难量化成功。

When you're in the trenches dealing with clients every day, it is hard to quantify success.

是的

Yeah.

对

Yeah.

因为正如诺埃尔可能会说的，那里的成功来自于咨询对单个客户生活所产生的影响。

Because as Noel, I guess, would have said that the success there comes from the impact that you make in an individual client's life through the consultation.

是的

Yes,

绝对如此

absolutely.

服务，是的。

Service Yep.

你

That you

并不是Facebook上的点赞数量。

It's not the number of likes on Facebook.

对。

Right.

那我们来看看。

So let's see.

所以我可能和马克·埃德蒙·琼斯有个人联系，然后你提到的那个方面，巴兹尔，成了他整个职业生涯的基石，即困难相位具有发展性，你会更关注这些相位；而从他的角度来看，柔和的相位，即使像三合会这样多个柔和相位，由于挑战性较小或发展性较弱，有时并不能总是

So I may have had a personal connection with Marc Edmund Jones and then that aspect thing that you mentioned, Basil, became like a cornerstone of his entire career, that idea that hard aspects are developmental and that you end up focusing on those more and that soft aspects even multiple ones like a grand trine can sometimes because they are not as challenging or developmental from his perspective that they cannot always

但三合会也可以具有发展性。

But be the grand can be developmental.

诺埃尔提出了一个惊人的理论，认为三合会与一种孤立、自我依赖的防御机制有关。

Noel proposed the incredible theory that a grand trine is connected to a potential defense mechanism of isolation, self sufficiency in isolation.

他确实掀起了波澜。

And he really rocked the boat.

那时候你在场，对吧，巴西尔？

You were there at that time, right Basil?

当他提出巨蟹座三合相可以带来自给自足时。

When he proposed the grand trine can be, the self sufficiency.

这就像是有一座城堡，周围有三道护城河，却没有吊桥。

It's like having having a castle with three moats, a three sided moat and no drawbridge.

你进不去，也出不来。

You can't get in, you can't get out.

要想进出，你就得主动搭起那座吊桥，摆脱这种行为模式，因为它会不断循环往复。

And in order to get in or out, you have to, provide that drawbridge to get out of that behavior because it just cycles around and around and around.

水象巨蟹座三合相带来情感上的自给自足，火象巨蟹座三合相带来动力上的自给自足，风象巨蟹座三合相带来智力上的自给自足。

Emotional self sufficiency for the water grand trine, motivational self sufficiency for the fire grand trine, intellectual self sufficiency for the air grand trine.

土象则是实际层面的自给自足。

Practical for Earth.

嗯嗯。

Mhmm.

土象是务实的。

Practical for Earth.

这非常具有革命性。

It was very revolutionary.

他掀起了波澜。

He rocked the boat.

为此他承受了很多攻击。

He took a lot of arrows for that.

但在治疗和心理层面，真是太棒了。

But on a therapeutic psychological level, wow.

简直太出色了。

Is just brilliant.

是的。

Yep.

嗯。

Mhmm.

好的。

Okay.

这将带我们进入他的一些技术性内容，以及他的技术革新或独特主张与见解。

So that'll take us into some of his technical stuff and his technical innovations or areas where he was unique or had unique proposals or insights.

在我研究这段内容、试图回忆所有细节并与马修·韦梅特交谈时，他提到诺埃尔发展出了一种兼具技术性与心理层面的方法。

One of the things to start off this session when I was researching this and trying to remember everything and talking with Matthew Ouimet is that he was saying that Noel crafted an approach that was both technical and psychological.

这使他在20世纪末的占星师中独具特色，无需在技术性与心理性之间做出取舍——而过去一二十年，随着古老占星形式的复兴，情况往往并非如此。

And that's something that's distinctive about him as an astrologer in the late twentieth century without necessarily having to sacrifice one for the other where sometimes, especially in the past decade or two with the revival of older forms of astrology.

有时，心理占星被批评为缺乏技术严谨性，而传统占星则被认为更偏向事件导向或预测性。

Sometimes psychological astrology is criticized as lacking in technical rigor or something like that whereas traditional astrology is perceived as being more event oriented or predictive.

然而，诺埃尔的方法在某些方面依然高度技术化。

However, Noel's approach was actually still highly technical in some ways.

他的观点是，心理层面不仅关注性格特质，还涉及成熟与内在演化。

And his approach was that psychological is not just character trait focused, but also dealt with maturation and internal evolution.

诺埃尔将技术方法与心理方法结合在了一起。

And Noel sort of married both a technical approach as well as a psychological approach.

是的。

Yes.

这是一种治疗性的方法。

It's a therapeutic approach.

它涉及右脑，而不仅仅是注重测量的左脑理性思维。

And it involved the right brain as opposed to just measurement oriented left brain intellectual.

它融合了两者。

It married both.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

克里斯，我来补充一点。

Chris, I'll add to that.

在我的人生中，每当太阳与土星产生关联时，都像是中了彩票，或者在特拉华州市中心的巴西尔游行中出现，诸如此类的事情。

In my life, anytime there's been Saturn anything with my Sun, it's been like win the lottery, Basil Parade in the middle of Downtown Delaware, you name it.

我遇到我妻子的时候，正在经过的土星正好与我第七宫的太阳成四分相。

I met my wife when transiting Saturn was exactly square my seventh house Sun.

1976年8月，当我与罗伯塔·弗拉克试音时，正在经过的土星正好位于我太阳的位置。

And I made my audition with Roberta Flack when transiting Saturn was exactly on my Sun in August 1976.

但一个刚接触 astrology 的新手，读了一本书后就被这些关于土星的内容淹没了，把土星和其他东西都只与负面事物联系在一起。

But a newbie who reads a book gets digested with all this Saturn stuff, all of this crap and they associate Saturn and other things only with something that is bad.

好与坏。

Good and bad.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，关键在于你必须先了解一个人正在经历的生活，然后再将这些星象数据应用到其中。

So, whole thing is that you have to look at the life that a person is living first and then apply that to the measurements.

如果一个人在贩毒，而太阳弧海王星正接近中天，这和一个在泰国、整天冥想的佛教僧侣海王星接近中天的情况是完全不同的。

If a person has been selling drugs and Solar Arc Neptune is coming up to the Midheaven, that's different than if someone in Thailand who is a Buddhist monk meditating all the time has Neptune coming to the Midheaven.

你必须观察这个人正在经历的生活，这绝不是一种放之四海而皆准的做法。

You have to look at the life that the person is living and it's not just a one size fits all endeavor.

他们将如何运用这种能量？

How are they going to use that energy?

他们将如何利用这个周期？

How are they going to utilize that cycle?

他们有自由意志，但同时，他们目前已经在进行中的什么因素会推动这个周期前进，无论是太阳弧还是行运？

They have free will, but also what do they already have currently in motion that will propel that cycle forward whether it's a solar arc or transit?

他在教学中始终强调这种智慧，我觉得这简直太出色了。

He emphasized that all the time in his teaching the wisdom of that and I thought that was, just spectacular.

对。

Right.

这或许可以很好地引出他一个鲜明的观点：他强烈反对使用‘吉星’和‘凶星’这些传统术语，来指代金星和木星这两颗吉星，以及火星和土星这两颗凶星。

And this might be a good segue into one of his distinctive things was that he had a real strong opposition to the use of the terms benefic and malefic, the traditional terms for the two benefic planets Venus and Jupiter and the two malefic planets Mars and Saturn.

我记得最后一次当面见他时，他提到过，这几乎成了他个人的使命——把那些术语从占星学中彻底移除。某种程度上，他可能已经成功了，因为我知道几年前我曾和Llewellyn出版社的一位编辑聊过，他说当时出版社有项明确政策，禁止使用这些术语，一度将它们列为禁用词。

And I think the last time I met him in person, he mentioned this that he had sort of made it his personal mission to remove those terms from astrology and to some extent may have been successful because I know I've talked to an editor at Llewellyn at once years ago who said that there was like a standing policy that those terms were not to be used and were kind of banned from Llewellyn publications for a while.

我不禁怀疑，如果不是诺埃尔的影响，会不会有这种变化。

I kind of wonder if Noel If that wasn't partially due to Noel's influence.

但他描述这一点时的一部分观点是，如果火星和土星代表发展需求——回到他的发展需求理论以及他将这种心理学方法融入占星学——那么就不应该将它们标记为‘坏’，因为这些都是成长所必需的，而力量与限制本质上是生活中不可或缺的。

But part of his approach in describing that was that if Mars and Saturn represent developmental needs because going back to his developmental need theory and his integration of that psychological approach into astrology, then they shouldn't be labeled as bad because it's something that's necessary to grow and the idea that force and limitations are fundamentally necessary in life.

但这是他对占星学的一个鲜明观点，他确实非常反感‘吉星’和‘凶星’这些术语，对吧？

But that was definitely one of his distinctive takes on astrology is he really didn't like the terms benefic and malefic, right?

是的，因为这些术语会自动让你产生偏见。

Yeah, because it automatically makes you prejudice.

你是个占星学新手，对什么都不了解，却读到这些东西。

You're a brand new astrology person, you don't know anything about anything and you read this stuff.

而人类有一种倾向，会牢牢抓住自己最先学到的东西。

And human beings have a tendency to hold on to the things that they learn first.

他们就是会这样，不管你怎么说，只要不是你最初学的那样，就会产生抵触。

They just do and no matter what you say, well, if it's not like what I learned first, then you get this opposition.

但你必须从哲学的角度来看待人生。

But you sort of have to look at life philosophically.

我们每个人都有自己的旅程，都有自己的道路，都有必要活在这世上并不断成长。

We all have a journey, we all have a path, we all have a necessity to be in this life and grow.

我们会通过障碍成长，会通过好事成长，也会通过很多其他事情成长。

And we're going to grow through obstacles, we're going to grow through good things, we're going to grow through a lot of stuff.

所以，如果你认为人生是一次三合相，那你就太天真了。

And so, it makes a person you're naive if you think that life is a trine.

事情根本不是这样的。

It just doesn't work that way.

它是由各种因素混合而成的。

It's a mixture of things.

所以，那些所谓的凶星并不应该被这样看待。

And so, it shouldn't be those malefic things.

当我教学生时，我会用‘挑战时期’这个词，而不是说这是坏的。

When I'm teaching students, I use the word times of challenge as opposed to this is bad.

我曾经在一个Facebook群组里待了一个月，直到你前几天打电话给我，克里斯，实际上就是那时候。

Was part of a Facebook group for about a month until right about the time you called me for this, Chris, actually.

而且

And

每天你都能看到占星术最糟糕的一面，简直令人尴尬。

on a daily basis, you saw astrology in its absolute worst, just embarrassing just stuff.

起初我抱着一种殉道者的态度，以为自己或许能帮上忙。

And I took a martyr attitude initially and thought that maybe I could help.

但我没能帮上忙，于是就退出了。

But I wasn't able to help and I got out of it.

但确实，我完全认同行星带来的负面影响并非坏事这一观点。

But yeah, clearly, I'm definitely on that bandwagon of malefic planets are not bad.

这是一场挑战。

There's a challenge.

人生充满挑战。

Life has challenges.

你上学时，总会遇到考试困难的时候。

You go through school, there's gonna be times when a test is challenged.

一旦你走出校园，就会面临各种挑战。

Once you get out of school, you're gonna be challenged.

这些困难相位代表了一种机会，并且要

And these hard aspects represent, an opportunity And to

我一次又一次地遇到一些学习了多年的新生，他们心中根深蒂固地认为，如果你的本命图中火星和土星合相，你就是残忍的。

I find myself over and over again with new students who have been studying for years who have had anchored into their consciousness things like if you have Mars Saturn conjunct in your natal chart, you're cruel.

这是一种自动化的笼统说法。

And it's an automatic blanket statement.

哦，我看到这个人命盘中有火星和土星合相，他们就是残忍的。

Oh, I see Mars Saturn conjunct in this person's chart, they're cruel.

他们就这样断定这个人残忍，并且深信不疑。

And they diagnose this person as cruel and they have that anchored in.

不仅限于这个例子，任何涉及冥王星过境的情况都是一种自我实现的预言。

And not only that example, but anything having to do with a Pluto transit where it's the self fulfilling prophecy.

如果你深信不疑，如果你不断对自己说这种话，你一定会让它成真。

If you anchor it in, if you are telling yourself that about that situation, you will surely manifest it.

你会因为自我实现的预言而显得是对的。

You get to be right because of the self fulfilling prophecy.

有很多人跟我争论这个观点，说：嘿，如果冥王星运行到我的星盘上，那肯定就是坏事，没得商量。

I have a lot of people arguing that concept with me to say, hey, if Pluto comes and hits my chart, it is gonna be bad period end of story.

我说，你确实可以是对的。

And I said, you get to be right.

也许事情并不一定非得如此。

Maybe it doesn't have to be.

也许你可以改变自己对这种情况的内心说法。

Maybe you can change what you are telling yourself about this situation.

但这是我的个人观点。

But that's my personal view.

这是我选择看待它的方式。

That's how I choose to see it.

在占星学的世界里，有足够的空间让我们以各种不同的方式去理解它，我认为也许我们都是对的。

And there's enough room in astrology in the world for us to see it in all kinds of different ways and I think maybe we're all right.

从量子灵性的层面来看，也许我们赋予事物的能量以及我们看待世界的方式，就会成为我们的现实，而我们每个人都可以是对的。

And it from the kind of quantum spiritual level, maybe what we energize and how we see the world becomes our reality and we all get to be right.

诺埃尔也接受了这种观点。

And Noel sort of embraced that too.

诺埃尔持有一种更开放的态度，他说他清楚自己相信什么。

Noel embraced a bigger attitude saying he knows what he believed.

但他表示，各种方法都有其空间，因为每个人使用的工具都不同。

But he said there's space for all techniques because everybody uses a different tool.

我喜欢他这一点，因为我并不认同只有一种方式来看待事物。

And I like that about him because I don't like limiting that there's only one way to see something.

因此，我非常尊重他这一点。

So I respected that about him very much.

是的。

Yeah.

他似乎有自己的技术方法，但也时常对其他观点持开放态度。

He seemed to have his own technical approach, but also sometimes was open to other ideas.

我的意思是，某些方面他确实有更强烈的看法，尤其是在吉星和凶星的问题上，他认为这在咨询环境中尤其不利，因此拒绝了这种观点。

I mean, certain ones he certainly had a stronger view on especially when it came to benefic and malefic and that being something detrimental to especially a consulting setting and rejecting it for that reason.

但其他方面，从技术上讲，他会说这对我来说有效。

But other things, technically speaking, he would just say this is what works for me.

看来他在某种程度上会允许别人做他们想做的事。

It seems like he would let people do what they were gonna do to some extent otherwise.

而且，我也在他在晚年时认识了他。

Well, and I also got to know him in his older years.

所以我真正开始与他建立联系是在2005年及之后。

So I really started connecting him with him in 2005 and after.

你知道，随着年龄增长，你的态度会改变，会稍微软化一些。

And you know, as you get older, your attitude changes, you soften a little bit.

巴西尔认识的是他早年的样子，那时他正充满热情，迅速崛起。

Basil knew him in the early years where he was just gung ho really developing skyrocketing up.

对吧？

Right?

对。

Right.

所以我们是在不同的阶段认识他的。

So we knew him in different phases.

我认识他时，他已经更平和了。

I got him in the more mellow stage.

据你所知，巴兹尔，在七十年代或八十年代，他在推广自己的理论时是否更热情或更激进？

Was he more ardent or aggressive in promoting his theories or something in the like seventies or eighties as far as you know, Basil?

他总是提到自己有火星和天秤座，所以能看清问题的两面。

He would always talk about the fact that he has Mars and Libra and he can see both sides of an issue kind of a thing.

AFAN选择他担任主持人，其中一个原因就是他经常说：我能看到问题的两面。

That was one reason why AFAN chose him to be a presiding officer because he would say it all the time, I can see both sides of an issue.

所以他不是那种会把东西硬塞给你的人，但他会清楚地表达自己的立场。

So he was not the kind of person to just throw stuff in your face, but he just made it clear about where he was coming from.

如果有人问他，他就会坦诚相告。

If somebody asked him, he would lay it on him.

但他始终尊重别人所做的事情。

But he always gave people the respect for what they were doing.

但从来不是那种‘这唯一的方式，要么接受我的方式’之类的态度。

But it was never like, this is the only way and my way or that kind of deal.

但我们必须记住，在那些早期年份，他提出了这么多新理论。

But we have to remember in those early years, he came out with so many new theories.

比如大三合理论，你还没谈到这个。

The grand trine theory, for example, you haven't gotten to it yet.

我肯定你会谈到土星逆行理论、半球强调理论，还有他把无相行星称为流浪行星这一点。

I'm sure you're gonna talk about the Saturn retrograde theory, the hemisphere emphasis theory, the fact that he called unaspected planets peregrine planets.

我知道你肯定会谈到这些，但他提出了这些新理论，开创了新思想，在你颠覆传统、提出新东西时，一开始承受了很多批评。

I know you're gonna talk about all this, But he came out with these new theories, pioneered new ideas, and took a lot of arrows in the beginning when you shake things up and you come up with something new.

所以我没有经历过他那个阶段。

So I didn't know him in that phase.

但自然地，当一个人处于那个阶段时，你会更加坚定，因为你必须如此，因为你面对的是反对。

But naturally when a person is in that phase, you are more assertive because you have to be because you're having reaction.

我是在他之后才认识他的，那时人们已经开始接受这些观点了，那时我才和他成为朋友并开始与他合作。

I got him afterwards when people had already started accepting that and that's when I became friends with him and started working with him.

是的

Yeah.

当你还是一个新兴的、年轻的革新者，基于自己的反思和见解提出新观点时，与你已经活跃了几十年、你的同行们成为主流、你的观点也逐渐融入主流时，这两者之间有着巨大的区别。前者有时会挑战既有传统，让你像一个局外人；而后者你已不再与任何人对抗，因为你某种程度上已经赢了。

There's a big difference between when you're the up and coming, the young upstart, and you're putting forward new ideas based on your own reflections and insights, and that in some instances those are new or unique or go against the grain of the established tradition and you're kind of like an outsider versus once you've been around for a few decades and your peers become the people who are the mainstream at that point and your views become more part of the mainstream, it's not as you're not fighting against anybody because you've sort of won at that point in some sense.

是的

Yeah.

嗯

Mhmm.

是的

Yeah.

所以我最近读到了一份我在互联网档案馆找到的访谈。

So I was reading this interview that I found on the internet archive.

那是他接受Meta Arts网站的采访。

It was an interview he did with the Meta Arts website.

哦

Oh,

我也在场。

I was in that too.

好的。

Okay.

他说他当时住在欧洲。

So he says he was living in Europe.

这应该是1970年代吧。

This is in the 1970s, I guess.

他被邀请到西雅图去歌剧院演唱。

And he was brought to Seattle to sing at the opera there.

他在西雅图找到一家当地书店，但我想那不是‘占星一切’书店。

He found a local bookshop and connected in Seattle, which was not the Astrology at All bookshop, I don't believe.

但他结识了一位名叫多萝西·休斯的占星师，她是AFAN的退休主席。

But he connected with an astrologer named Dorothy Hughes who was a retired president of the AFAN.

通过她，他与她的对话给她留下了深刻印象，并通过她的引荐，他在AFA大会上发表了演讲。

And through her, he ended up impressing her with some discussion they had and through her and that connection ended up speaking at an AFA conference.

他说，在他的第一次演讲中，现场只有大约12个人，但后来情况不错，下一场讲座来了大约80人。

And he said at his first presentation, he only had like 12 people there during his first presentation, but then it went well enough that he had maybe 80 people show up at the next lecture.

然后最后，他说再下一场来了两百到三百人。

And then finally, he says he had two seventy to 300 at the next one.

之后，他再次做了一场讲座，整个房间都坐满了，或者类似的情况。

And then eventually, he gave another lecture that was just filling up the entire room or something like that.

他说，那场讲座挤满了舞厅，来了1200人，因为他讲的是性与性取向，而在1970年代，谈论这样的主题可以说是相当轰动的。

He says it filled the ballroom and there was 1,200 people there because he gave a lecture on sex and sexuality, which was he said like scandalous or something in the 1970s to give a talk on such a topic.

因此我们可以看到，他当时所做的一些事情或探讨的话题可能颇具争议，但无疑回应了当时占星界某种迫切的需求。

So we can see how some of the things that he might have been doing at that point or addressing might have been edgy, but it was certainly speaking to or it filled some need that was there in terms of the astrological community at the time.

这样做需要很大的勇气。

It takes a lot of courage to do that.

作为先驱者，坚持自己的信念，发自内心地表达，这需要极大的勇气。

It takes a lot of courage to be a pioneer and stick to your guns and speak from the heart.

是的，他确实有很多自我。

And yes, he had a lot of ego.

要做这件事，你得有很强的自我认同。

You have to have a lot of ego to do it.

他有着巨大的月亮，或者他当时有着位于狮子座的巨大月亮。

He has that gigantic Moon or he had that gigantic Moon in Leo.

你必须能够维持这种状态而不崩溃。

You have to be able to sustain that without crumbling.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Right.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

那么，好吧。

So, all right.

那我们来谈谈他独特的那些技术性内容。

So let's get into some of the technical stuff that he was unique for.

就像我们说过的，相位。

Like we've said, aspects.

他必须特别关注硬相位，因为硬相位被视为发展性的，而软相位则被视为静态的。

He had to focus on hard aspects especially because aspects were seen as developmental, soft aspects were seen as static.

我听说在他的职业生涯中可能有不同的阶段，早期他可能对硬相位使用了六度的容许度，但后来可能转向了七度的容许度。

I've heard there may have been different stages in his career where he may have used more of a six degree orb for hard aspects early on, but maybe may have moved to like a seven degree orb later on.

这是真的吗？

Is that true?

你们中有谁能确认这一点吗？

Or can either of you confirm that?

光体是七度，行星是五度。

The light's seven and the planet's five.

但与此同时，尤其是在他晚年，他会说，容许度是一种意识的跨度。

Except at the same time he would say, especially in his later years, that the orbs are a span of consciousness.

所以随着他年纪越来越大，他会说，对他而言，设定绝对的相位 orb 是不合理的，因为在某些情况下，你能在命盘中感受到那两颗行星彼此在相互吸引。

And so the older he got then he would say, you know, to him it wasn't reasonable to have absolute orbs that in certain occasions you're gonna feel in the natal chart those two planets are reaching out to each other.

如果感觉是对的，如果有效，那就很好。

And if it seems true, if it works, then great.

因此，他年纪越大，对 orb 的态度就越不僵化。

So the older he got, the less he was rigid about orbs.

我跟你说，对 orb 的僵化态度是我个人不认同的观点，因为我根本觉得这完全没必要。

And I'll tell you what, rigidity about orbs is something that I have as my personal bandwagon because I don't find it necessary at all.

所以当我认识他的时候，他用的是七度，我也就沿用这个数值，因为它对我来说效果非常好。

So when I knew him, it was seven degrees and that's what I use because it seems to work so well for me.

好的。

Okay.

他主要使用的是托勒密体系或主要相位。

And so that was with the He used the Ptolemaic or the major aspects primarily.

至于次要相位，他不用不合相，因为他表示根据自己的经验，这个相位效果并不好。

When it comes to minor aspects, he didn't use the inconjunct because he said that he didn't find that it worked very well in his experience.

你们之前听说过吗？

Had you guys heard that?

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

知道。

Did.

好的。

Okay.

他总是说，每个人都会找到一些特别适合自己使用的技巧。

Well, one thing he always said was everybody finds certain techniques that work extremely well for them.

虽然他说不和谐相是一个很好的相位，但并不是他最喜欢的。

And while he said the inconjunct is a great aspect, it wasn't his favorite.

它无法引起他的共鸣。

It didn't speak to him.

他对此没有共鸣。

He didn't resonate with it.

所以他能尊重其他方面、其他方法，但你知道，我们每个人都会在某方面有所专长。

And so he can respect the other aspects, other techniques, but you know, we all specialize in something.

它能触动我们，无论你使用不同的方法，还是我使用不同的方法，我们都能获得相同的信息。

It sings to us and we get the same information whether you're using a different technique or I'm using a different technique.

巴兹尔，你可能对此有更多要说的。

And Basil, you may have more to say on that.

这正是我真正想说的

That's just what I really

同样，在某个时刻，他谈到了要理解一个人的身份，你到底需要多少信息。

As well, at a certain point, he talked about how much information do you really need to understand a person's identity.

想想你认识的每一个人，想想你认识的最复杂的人，你知道他们的问题出在哪里。

You think about everybody you know, think about the most complex person that you know and you know what's wrong with them.

如果你真要花时间谈论这个人是如何给自己制造问题的，那最多不会超过五分钟。

It's not going to take you more than five minutes if it takes that long to talk about what it is that this person does to create problems for themselves.

如果你按照占星字母表，使用所有可用的元素，你可能会错过重点，无法真正理解一个人的身份，如果你使用合相、半六分相、六分相、半四分相、不协调相、五分相的话。

If you go by the astrological alphabet and you use everything that there is to use, you can miss the boat, you can miss what's really going on with the person's identity if you're using conjunction, semi sextile, sextile, semi square, inconjunct, quintile.

我的意思是，如果你只是使用所有这些东西，最后得出三十个相位，那就会稀释信息。

I mean, if you just use all of that stuff and you end up with 30 aspects, then it dilutes things.

你需要多少测量数据？

How many measurements do you need?

不是在德国有过这么一件事吗，是的。

Wasn't there the thing in Germany Yeah.

他们不愿意

Where they wouldn't

看看我们所有人用的软件，你可以用上百万种方式做各种操作，但人真的有那么复杂吗？

You look in the software that we all have and you can do all kinds of stuff like a million different ways, but are people that complex?

我真的不这么认为。

I really don't think so.

所以，可以说，在他职业生涯的后半段，他达到了这样的境界：我只使用必要的部分，不再使用半六分相或半四分相，因为那太多了。

So, he got towards the latter part of his, the second part of his career I would say, he got to the point where it was like, I'm only gonna use what's necessary and not use a semi sextile, not use a semi square because it's just too much.