占星术中“损害”概念的起源

所以它说‘或’或

So it says Or or

或者如果你在择时图表中使用，就是合相始生。

or conjunctional inception if you're doing that in election charts.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

于是他开始指导你观察那个孕前新月的主宰星。

So he starts telling giving you instructions to look at the ruler of that prenatal lunation.

他说，当合相的主宰星位于其自身位置或与该位置成三合时，将产生在各方面都成功、善于获取的人。

And he says, when the ruler of the assembly occupies its own place or is in a triangle to the place, it will produce those who succeed in everything and those effective in acquisition.

然而，当它处于相冲或对冲位置时，情况就不是这样了。

However, this will not be the case when found to be in aversion or oppositional.

而且，它再次使用了‘enantioma’这个术语，将相冲与对冲位置归为一类，表明他们正越来越明确地将行星与其 domicile 相对的位置视为类似于相冲。

And again, it uses the term enantioma, again grouping aversion together with the oppositional placement so that they're really firmly starting to treat it more and more of a planet being opposite to its domicile as being like or pretty close to aversion.

最后，还有一个例子，我实际上在我的书中引用过，我觉得这个例子非常有说服力：雷托里乌斯保存了对一张命盘的解读，后来的学者认定这是公元五世纪帕诺波利斯的学者潘普里皮奥斯的出生星盘。

And then finally, there's a example, and I actually quoted this in my book, and I thought it was pretty compelling, where Rhetorius preserves this delineation of an example chart, which later scholars identified as the birth chart of a fifth century scholar named Pampripios of Panopolis.

这位人物显然是一位高贵的异教学者，曾身居高位，但一生中曾被敌人流放，可能不止一次。

And this guy was apparently a noble pagan scholar who rose to high position, but he ended up being banished by his enemies at one point in his life or possibly twice.

因此，雷托里乌斯在分析时，曾考察过教派光体和上升点的三合主星，同时也关注了月亮的状态。

So Rhetorius uses his birth chart, at one point, he's looking at the triplicity rulers of the sect light and the Ascendant, and he's also looking at the condition of the Moon.

他指出，这两者都位于金牛座，而金牛座的守护星——金星，在此人的出生盘中位于天蝎座，即金星的落陷或对冲位置。

And he notes that both of them are in Taurus and that the ruler of Taurus in this person's birth chart is Venus and it's located in Scorpio, which is the sign of its detriment or opposition.

他还说，金星作为守护星，以及月亮，都位于与她相对的位置。

And he says, but also Venus, ruler of it and the Moon, posited in opposition to her.

因此，他基本上是说，月亮的守护星是金星，土星的守护星也是金星，而它们都位于与月亮对冲的位置。

So he says, basically, the ruler of the Moon is Venus and the ruler of Saturn is Venus, and they're both in opposition to her.

接着，雷托里乌斯问道：难道他的一生初期不会充满困扰吗？事实上，由于月亮被其自身守护星所对冲，导致他多次被迫流亡。

And then Rhetorius asks, how could he not have had a troublesome first age, but indeed also flights were made in many places because of the Moon's being opposed by its own sign ruler?

为了佐证这一点，雷托里乌斯随后引用了一位未具名的早期希腊化时期作者的诗句，可能是多罗西乌斯，也可能是其他用韵文写作的占星家，诗句写道：看啊，月亮位于某颗星辰的 domicile 中。

And then in order to back this up, Rhetorius then quotes some earlier Hellenistic author who he doesn't identify it, maybe Dorotheus, it may be some other astrologer who wrote in verse, and the verse says, Behold, the Moon is in the domicile of some star.

如果你发现它潜伏在对冲位置，他确实会是一个逃亡者、隐匿者和流浪者。

And if you find that one lurking in opposition, he will also indeed be a fugitive, obscure, and a wanderer.

所以如果月亮在射手座

So if the Moon is in Sagittarius

嗯。

Mhmm.

而她的主宰星木星位于双子座，处于其落陷位置并与月亮对冲，因此月亮位于一个其主宰星处于落陷且与之对冲的星座。

And her lord Jupiter is in his detriment in Gemini opposing her, So she's in a sign in which the lord of the sign is in its own detriment opposing that sign.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这部分是因为月亮的一个普遍象征意义被认为是家庭和居住环境。

And I think that's partially because the Moon has one of its general significations as supposed to be like the home and the living situation.

但如果月亮及其所处的星座代表家庭和居住状况，而该星座的主宰星却位于与之相对的星座，那就必然暗示着与居家生活完全相反的情况。

But if the Moon and the sign it's in indicate the home and living situation, but the ruler of that is in the sign opposite to that, then it must indicate that which is antithetical to living at home.

与居家生活最相反的情形，就是被逐出祖国，无法返回家园，只能滞留海外。

The most antithetical situation to living at home is actually being banished from your home country and unable to return home but having to stay abroad.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

这很有说服力。

So that's pretty compelling.

此外，勒托里乌斯在前面的章节中也引用了同样的规则，他说：‘月亮与其主宰星相对时，会使人成为逃亡者、受辱者、流浪者和旅居异国之人。’

Then elsewhere, Rhetorius quotes the same rule in an earlier chapter where he says, The Moon being opposed to its own ruler makes fugitives, dishonored persons, wanderers, and those living abroad.

然后，基本上还有其他一大堆内容，我是说，勒托里乌斯是希腊化传统末期第一位将这一概念从多罗修斯和瓦伦斯那种单纯描述性段落中抽离出来的人。

Then there's just basically a bunch of other I mean, Rhetorius is the first author who finally at the end of the Hellenistic tradition, he moves this from just the delineation sections like Dorotheus and Valens were doing.

而在他著作的开篇，定义基本概念时，他实际上给出了‘ detriment ’的定义，并在列举黄道十二宫时，将其与 domicile（本宫）、exaltation（庙）、fall（陷）等基本属性并列，明确提到‘行星的 detriment 宫位’。

And right at the top of his work when he's defining basic concepts, he actually has a definition of detriment and he groups it when he mentions all the signs of the zodiac in with the basic properties of domicile, exaltation, fall, and then he says the sign of a planet's detriment.

在勒托里乌斯第七章中，他明确宣布将解释为何不仅存在擢升与落陷，还存在对立性或 detriment 的概念。

And in chapter seven of Rhetorius, he actually announces that he's going to explain the rationale for not just the exaltations and depressions, but also the concept of contrarity or detriment.

随后他在第八章中详细阐述了这一点，这段话来自施密特的译本：‘为何太阳和月亮的本宫是相互对立的？’

And then he does so in chapter eight where he has this long paragraph that says, and this is from Schmidt's translation, why is it that the domiciles of the Sun and the Moon are contrary?

他使用了术语'enantioma'，因此你可以将这种现象称为土星或克罗诺斯的宫位的 detriment。

And he uses the term enantioma, so you could say detriment here to the house, to the domiciles of Cronos or of Saturn.

然后，雷托里乌斯说，我们之所以这样说，是因为太阳和月亮是宇宙的光明之源，而克罗诺斯则是黑暗的主宰。

And then Rhetorius says, we say that it is because the Sun and the Moon are the lights of the cosmos while Cronos is the master of darkness.

因此，光明总是与黑暗相对，黑暗也总是与光明相对。

Whence light is always contrary to darkness and darkness to light.

那么，为什么水星的宫位与木星的宫位相对，而木星的宫位也与水星的宫位相对呢？

Again, why is it that the houses of Hermes are contrary to the houses of Zeus and the houses of Zeus to the houses of Hermes?

我们说，这是因为木星掌管财富与丰裕，而水星则始终是辩论的主宰。

We say that it's because Zeus is the overseer of possessions and abundance, while Hermes is always the master of arguments.

因此，智性能力总是与对财富的渴望相对，并且轻视丰裕，而丰裕也与智性相对。

The intellectual facility then is always contrary to and looks down upon the desire for possessions, and abundance is contrary to what is intellectual.

那么，为什么火星的宫位与金星的宫位相对呢？

Then again, why is it that the houses of Mars are contrary to the houses of Venus?

我们说，这是因为金星掌管一切欲望、愉悦与享乐，而火星则掌管一切恐惧、战争与激情。

We say that it is because Venus is the overseer of every desire and delight and pleasure, while Mars is the overseer of every fear and war and passion.

愉悦的、欲望的、令人愉快的事物，与可怕、激情和好战的事物相对立。

The delightful and appetitive and pleasurable then is contrary to the terrible and the passionate and the polemical.

因此，这是里托里乌斯试图解释、合理化并最终形式化‘ detriment ’这一概念的尝试；在传统末期，他指出这不仅仅关乎行星与其星座的对立，以及对立带来的紧张感，还涉及当一颗行星作为访客停留在另一个星座时，该星座的主宰星所具有的相反或根本对立的含义，会以某种方式抵消或与该行星固有的特质形成对立。

So this is Rhetorius' attempt to explain and rationalize and actually formalize the concept of detriment at the end of the tradition where he's saying it's not just about a planet opposing its sign and the tension of the opposition being difficult, but it also has to do with the interaction between a planet when it's staying as a guest in another sign and the ruler of that sign has contrary or literally opposite significations that somehow cancel out or antithetical to that planet's Mhmm.

你知道的，那些内在的品质或含义。

You know, inherent qualities or significations.

嗯。

Mhmm.

因此，这种解释后来也在中世纪传统中被确立下来，我认为它在阿布·马沙尔和其他一些作者的作品中也有体现。

So that rationale also then comes up and sort of gets enshrined later in the Medieval tradition as well, and I think it shows up in Abu Ma'shar and maybe other authors.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

我想当我们看到我引用的阿布·马沙尔和萨尔的幻灯片时，这些观点就会汇聚在一起。

I think when we get to the slides with my quotes on it from Abu Ma'shar and Sahl, we'll see a lot of these things come together.

在我的课程中，我把它们分成了三组，这些组看起来相当一致。

And what I've done in my course is I've grouped them into three groups that seem pretty consistent.

我给你们的这些引文，很多都源自或基于更早的传统文本。

The quotes that I've given you, many of them come from or are based on traditional earlier texts.

好的。

Okay.

但它们开始形成一些类别，我们通过这些引文探讨了为什么它们可以归为一类，因为我们一再看到相同的推理模式出现。

But they start to fall into groups, and we've sort of explored through these quotations why they could fall into groups because we've seen some of the same reasoning pop up again and again.

对。

Right.

是的，让我看看是否还有更多来自希腊化时期作者的新颖或独特观点，因为其余大部分都来自修辞家，尽管修辞家的一些论述至少被以撒的提奥菲勒斯抄录过一两次。

Yeah, let me see if there's any more that present anything new or unique in the Hellenistic authors because most of the rest are from Rhetorius, although some of Rhetorius' delineations get copied over by Theophilus of Edessa at least once or twice.

例如，修辞家说：第四宫的守护星与它自己的宫位相对，意味着命主将死于异乡。

So for example, Rhetorius says, The ruler of the fourth house opposing its house means that the native will meet his end abroad.

因此，如果第四宫的守护星与它自己的宫位相对，命主就会死在外地。

So the native will die abroad if the ruler of the fourth is opposing its own house.

而狄奥菲勒斯几个世纪后也抄录了这一点，他说：地下枢轴的主宰若与自身宫位相对，则预示他将死于异国他乡。

And Theophilus copies this a few centuries later, and he says, The ruler of the underground pivot opposing its own house say that he will die in foreign lands.

或者对于第十一宫的主宰，最终我注意到关于‘父亲之命点’的一个界定：当其主宰与命点位置相对时，表明此人可能是私生子，或其血统存在争议。

Or similar things with the ruler of the eleventh place, there's eventually one delineation I believe of the lot of the father being And what happens when the ruler is opposite to that and indicating that the native is illegitimate in some way or that the parentage is contested.

在这里，Rhetorius 548条。

Here it is, Rhetorius five forty eight.

如果父亲命点的主宰位于其命点所在宫位的对宫，则说明此类人是被收养的，即非亲生，或被虚假地冒充为合法继承人。

If the ruler of the Lot of Father should be found to be opposite to its own house where the Lot of the Father happens to be, it says that such are suppositious, which means illegitimate or falsely presented as a genuine heir.

以上就是所有希腊化时期的引文了，还有一些，但我将留待大家自行查阅我将在本集附上的PDF文件。

So those are all the Hellenistic quotes, there's a few more, but I'll leave them for people to check out in the PDF that I'll attach to this episode.

在我看来，这表明了这一概念是如何逐步发展起来的。

And to me, I think that shows how this concept started developing.

尽管早期它可能并未被正式定义，但我们已经看到一系列重叠的概念和理由，促使它最终朝这个方向凝聚，直到Rhetorius时代，他才真正开始系统化这一定义。

Even though it wasn't perhaps formally defined early on, we see a constellation of overlapping concepts and reasons why it eventually may have started to coalesce in that direction until eventually by the time of Rhetorius, he really does start formalizing the definition.

随后，Rhetorius的文本成为传入中世纪传统的重要文献之一，此外还有瓦伦斯的部分内容以及大量其他内容

And then Rhetorius' text is one of the ones that was passed off to the medieval tradition in addition to parts of Valens and large parts

多罗修斯的。

of Dorotheus.

对吧？

Right?

不好意思。

I'm sorry.

你再说一遍最后一部分。

Say that last part again.

雷托里乌斯的文本确实传入了中世纪传统、阿拉伯传统，瓦伦斯的部分以及多罗修斯的大量内容也传入了中世纪传统。

Rhetorius' text was was did make it into the medieval tradition, the Arabic tradition, and also parts of Valens made it into the medieval tradition as well as large parts of Dorothea's.

是的。

Yeah.

它们以不同形式传入了，但没错，他们确实接触过这些材料。

They made it in there in different forms, but yes, they had access to that material.

好的。

Okay.

因此，由于这些文本进入了中世纪传统，我们开始在这些文本中看到非常相似的内容出现。

As a result of that probably or as a result of those texts making it into the Medieval tradition, we start to see something very similar showing up in those texts.

而这正是你开始将这些引用归类为三大类的地方。

And this is where you started grouping it into the the three categories of where those references show up.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我们也在阿拉伯语中看到了一些专业术语。

And we also see some specialized vocabulary also in Arabic as well.

在我们逐一梳理这些内容的过程中，很明显，他们用作希腊语‘enantioma’对应词的是这个词，嗯。

The word that Now that we've been going through these, the word that clearly they're using as their version of enantioma in Greek, Mhmm.

他们在阿拉伯语中使用的动词是‘dadda’，这个词的含义范围非常相似：对立、相反、对比、敌对，以及相反、颠倒的意思。

The verb that they use in Arabic is dadda, which means it has a very similar range of meanings: to be contrary, opposed, contrasting, antagonistic, and to be inverse, like to be the inversion of something.

嗯。

Mhmm.

颠倒。

Inversion.

那也是一个不错的翻译，比如行星反转的符号的符号。

That would that would be a good translation too, like the sign of the sign of a planet's inversion.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我还在思考这个问题，因为从概念上讲，我更喜欢‘对立’这个词，但它用起来不太顺口，不够流畅。

I'm still thinking about it because it's like I like antithesis conceptually, but it's very hard to put in a usable It doesn't roll off the tongue as easily.

是的。

Yeah.

但这个词也属于这个范围。

But that falls within this kind of range.

所以‘dadda’是他们的主要动词，但还有一个词叫‘wabal’。

So dadda is their main verb, But there's another word which is wabal.

‘wabal’是一个有趣的术语。

And wabal is an interesting term.

它指的是一种由污浊空气引发疾病的理论。

It refers to a theory of illness coming through bad air.

所以‘wabao’字面意思是不健康，但它涉及一种观念，即不健康的身体某种意义上被污染了，通常是由于坏空气。

So wabao literally means unhealthiness, but it has to do with the idea that the unhealthy body is corrupted somehow, usually by bad air.

因此，这个词也带有瓦解和腐化的含义。

So there's a sense of disintegration and corruption in that term as well.

所以这是他们使用的两个主要术语。

So those are the two main ones they use.

那么，这很可能就是后来被翻译成拉丁语、逐渐演变为‘detriment’的术语。

And that's probably the term then that eventually is translated into Latin in something that starts becoming detriment.

对吧？

Right?

有可能。

Could be.

有可能。

Could be.

我没有确切追踪过，因为‘detrimentum’实际上指的是把某物磨耗殆尽。

I haven't tracked it exactly because detrimentum really means to wear something out.

它并不真正意味着某种对立。

It does not really mean the opposition of something.

所以他们可能是从‘wabao’中获得了‘detriment’这个概念，但我目前还不能确定。

So it could be that they got this idea of detriment from Wabaw, but I can't be sure quite yet.

好的。

Okay.

但关键是，阿拉伯占星家开始发展出一个或两个专门术语来描述这种现象，因为他们逐渐意识到这是一种独特的东西，而且他们一定从晚期希腊传统中了解到，这不仅仅是一个对立相位，而是有其独特之处。

But the point is that the Arabic astrologers, they started developing a special term or two that were used for this because they were starting to recognize that it was something unique, and they must have picked up from the late Hellenistic tradition that it wasn't just an opposition aspect, but there was something unique about this.

这一直是我在研究中世纪占星术时非常欣赏的一点，从2007年和2008年你出版的书籍开始，你就清楚地展示了早期中世纪占星家在将希腊文和更早作者的文本翻译成阿拉伯文时，是如何竭力寻找与希腊技术术语相近的词汇，并且对此非常有意识的。

That's always been one of the interesting things that I've appreciated about your studies of Medieval astrology since the beginning going back to like 2007 and 2008 in your books is really showing how the early Medieval astrologers that were translating the texts into Arabic from Greek and earlier authors, they really did try really hard to find words that were close to the Greek technical terms that they were translating and they were very conscious of that.

是的。

Yeah.

事实上，如果你思考一下希腊语中的区别——我们之前讨论过，希腊语中两个处于直径位置的星座是正常的相位术语，而‘enantioma’则是一种对立性。

In fact, if you think about the difference so we've talked about the difference in Greek between two signs in a diameter, which is the normal aspect term, and this enantioma, which is a kind of contrariety.

在阿拉伯语中，情况非常相似。

In Arabic, it's very similar.

他们用'mukabbalah'来表示对冲。

Their word for the opposition is standardly mukabbalah.

而'mukabbalah'实际上意味着站在某物对面，正对着它。

And mukabbalah actually means to stand across from something and look at it like this.

好的。

Okay.

它表示与某物处于一种相对的关系中。

It means to be across in a relationship with something like that.

但他们在这里用'muddadah'来表示处于受损状态的对立，这个词意味着对立、反转或敌对的状态。

But the word that they use here for the contrarity of being in detriment is muddadah, and that means to be in a state of contrariety or inversion or hostility.

所以它虽然也有相反的含义，但用的是不同的动词、不同的词根。

So it has similar ideas of being opposite, but it's a different verb, different root.

他们显然非常谨慎。

They were clearly trying to be careful.

他们一定注意到，他们的希腊和波斯来源使用了专门的术语。

They must have noticed that their Greek and Persian sources were using special terms.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

好的。

Okay.

所以你想看看一些来自中世纪传统的段落吗？

So do you want to look at some of the passages Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

你从中世纪传统中找到的那些段落？

That you found from the Medieval tradition?

所以这里有几段。

So here's a few.

我把这个放进了我自己的PPT里，可以吗？

I threw this in my own PowerPoint Okay.

这样可以吗？

If that's okay?

是的。

Yeah.

我把它放到了几张幻灯片上。

I put it on a couple of slides.

我把它们分成了几个类别。

I listed them in several categories.

它们都在这儿吗？

Are they all here?

是的。

Yeah.

我把它分成了大约五张幻灯片，我觉得。

I separated it into like five slides, I think.

我们从第一个开始吧。

Let's start with the first one.

是这个吗？

Is this it

或者这个第一个只是一般性陈述。

or do So this first one is just a general statement.

它列出了月亮可能处于的几种不利状态。

It's a list of bad conditions that the Moon could be in.

在这里，我们现在看到了之前见过的一个内容。

And here, now we see one of the things that we've been seeing before.

当她处于与自己宫位相反的位置时，我认为这就是‘muddadah’这个术语，或者她远离该宫位，这意味着她与之相克。

When she's in the contrary of her own house, and I think that's the muddadah term, or she is absent from it, and that means she's in aversion to it.

好的，所以他们又把它们归为一类了。

Okay, so they're grouping it together again.

嗯。

Mhmm.

好的。

Okay.

所以这只是一个笼统的、随意的定义性陈述。

So that's just a general definitional throwaway kind of definitional statement.

是的，但这是一个关于选举图中八种不利位置的总体陈述。

Yeah, but a general statement about these are eight conditions of difficult placement in electional charts.

对。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

它把陷落和相克归为一类，就像我们之前看到的前辈们所做的那样。

And it's grouping those detriment and aversion in the way that we can see that the predecessors did too.

好的。

Okay.

所以，这里是我所说的三大主题群之一：分割、对立和依赖。

So here's one of the three major groups of themes is what I call division, contrariety, and dependence.

这里的观点是，当你处于你所主宰星座的对宫时，你处于一种类似于外星或无主的状态。

And the idea here is that when you're in the opposite of the sign that you rule, you are in a condition that is similar to being alien or peregrine.

因为如果你处在你并不主宰的宫位，那就是一颗外星或无主行星，你会受到主宰该宫位的行星所代表的情境、象征和特质的影响。

Because if you're in a place that you don't rulethat's an alien or peregrine planet you are subject to the situations and the significations and the qualities of the planet that does rule that place.

如果你处于一个其主宰星的含义与你相反的星座中，就会出现一种注意力分散的情况，行星想要做的事情和它能够运作的条件之间会产生冲突。

Well, if you're in a place that like we saw, if you're in a sign whose lord has the significations that are the opposite of yours, then there's a kind of divided attention and there's a kind of a conflict going on with what the planet wants to do and the conditions it's able to operate under.

以下是两段来自索尔的引文。

So here are two quotes from Saul.

其中一段来自他的格言。

One is from his aphorisms.

他说：如果上升宫或月亮的主宰星位于其自身宫位的第七宫，那么所求之事的主宰者——也就是求问者（在卜卦图中）——会对所求之事感到犹豫，此事会给他带来沉重的压力。

He says, If the Lord of the Ascendant or the Moon was in the seventh from its own house, then the owner of the sought matter that's the querent this is in a horary chart the querent will be reluctant about the sought matter, and it will weigh heavily upon him.

当你在寻求某样东西，而你实际上并不想要它，或者你正在追求一件已经让你感到负担的事情时，你会怎么做？这种情况可以描述为处于自己宫位的对宫，因为你正承受着相反的条件。

So what do you do when you are seeking something that you don't actually want or you're going for something that you already feel burdened by, that could describe the situation of being in the opposite of your own house because you're laboring under contrary conditions.

是的，这很有道理。

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

另一段来自《问题之书》。

Another one is the book on questions.

如果第七宫的主宰星位于上升宫，那么第七宫的主宰星因处于上升宫而处于落陷状态。

If the lord of the seventh was in the Ascendant, so the lord of the seventh is in detriment by being in the Ascendant Mhmm.

那么，这里代表第七宫的女性会比男性更加积极。

Then the woman who here is the seventh house will be more eager than the man is.

因此，在这个问题中，第七宫的主宰管理着女性，但她却身处男性的宫位，这意味着她比男性更受制于他、更依赖他，也对他更感兴趣。

So the lord of the seventh manages the woman in this question, but she's in the house of the man, which means it's as though she is more subject to and dependent on and more interested in the man than he is on her.

所以，我们再次看到这种观念：你不仅仅处于一个不同的位置。

So again, we have this idea that you're not just in a different place.

你处于一个行星的注意力被分割、或与自身相冲突、或两种对立的意愿在作用的位置，而不是行星在自己的星座中那样统一而直接。

You're in a place where the attention of the planet is somehow being divided or divided against itself or two contrary interests are at work rather than the planet in its own sign being more unified and direct.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这可能也是另一个来源，即第一宫和第七宫之间的划分：第一宫始终是自我的宫位，无论在命盘、择时占星还是卜卦占星中都是如此，而第七宫则是他者的默认宫位，成为伴侣、婚姻伴侣或一般他人，但也成为默认的‘他者’，而‘ detriment ’这个概念可能部分源于这种‘他者化’。

I think that may be like another area where this may have come from as well is through a division also between like the first house and the seventh house, and the first house always being the house of the self, either in needle astrology or in even electional astrology or horary astrology, and the seventh house being the default place of the other, which becomes like the partner or the marriage partner or other people in general, but also becomes sort of like the default other and possibly this concept of detriment growing out of that partially as the place of like othering.

当一颗行星处于其落陷的位置时，它处于一种被‘他者化’的情境中，其自身的利益在某种程度上被搁置或弱化。

And when a planet is in the place of its detriment, it being in a situation where it is the one who is othered and has its own interests in some way set aside or minimized in some way.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而且这还与派生宫位有关，因为每当你观察一对对立的宫位及其所代表的主题时，总会遇到这种情况：这些主题有时相似，但有时又相互对立，或并非冲突，而是以某种方式相互竞争。

And then that also kind of works with derivative houses because you always kind of have that issue anytime you're looking at sort of binary pair of two opposing houses and the topics that they signify as being similar sometimes but also sometimes opposed or not conflicting but competing with each other in some way.

嗯。

Mhmm.

比如，当你对比一个占卜问题中的第二宫（你的财务）和第八宫（伴侣或其他人的财务）时，会发生什么？

Like what happens when you contrast, a Horoi question, like the second house of your finances with the eighth house of, like, the partner or other people's finances or something like that.

嗯。

Mhmm.

好吧，我们回到你的引述。

All right, so back to your quotes.

是的，实际上，另一种说法是，第二宫和第八宫之间的区别不仅在于第八宫是它的对宫，更在于第八宫代表的是他人的钱财。

Yeah, actually, another way to put that would be the difference between the second and the eighth is not just the eighth is the opposition to it, it's that the eighth is the money of other people.

它受他人控制。

It's subject to other people's control.

对。

Right.

这不仅仅是一种抽象的对立。

It's not just a sort of abstract opposition.

拥有并控制这些资金的人，其利益可能与你的不同。

The people who own that money and are controlling it might have different kinds of interests than you do.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

当这种情况发生时，会怎样呢？

And what happens when that happens?

这会形成一种固有的对比或冲突。

And it creates an inherent sort of contrast or conflict.

这种冲突并非无法克服。

It's not one that can't be overcome.

如果位置配置得当，你就能看到积极的一面。

And if the placement is well placed, you can see the positive.

如果它配置了吉星，你可以看到积极的解决方式；而如果它带有负面指示，那可能就是一种具有挑战性或消极的情况。

If it has benefics configured to it, you can see the positive resolution of that versus if it has negative indications, then that could be a challenging or a negative thing.

但关键是，最初它确实建立了一种对比，这种对比天然地吸引注意，因为它几乎像是一种矛盾。

But the point is initially that it does set up a sort of contrast that inherently has a bit of attention because it's almost like a contradiction.

嗯。

Mhmm.

即使我们用更现代的术语来讨论，也可能存在类似的对比，但依然与希腊化传统相关，比如第四宫代表你的家、生活环境和私人生活，与第十宫代表你的事业和公共生活之间的对比。

There might be a similar contrast even if we're talking in more modern terms, but still relatable to the Hellenistic tradition between like the fourth house of your home and living situation and private life versus the tenth house of like your career and your public life.

如果第四宫的主宰星落入第十宫，你的私人生活突然变得公开，这种内在张力会怎样？反之，如果第十宫的主宰星落入第四宫，又会怎样？

And what happens if, let's say, the ruler of the fourth is in the tenth and your private life is suddenly public and the inherent tension in that versus if the ruler of the tenth is in the fourth or what have you.

因此，也许这些观念正是源于持续沿用宫主星的传统，以及当一个宫的主宰星位于其对立宫时，所自然产生的效应——当你开始运用这种逻辑时。

So maybe some of this then grew out of a continued tradition of using things like the rulers of the houses and just what happens inherently when the ruler of one house is opposite to its house just when you start playing with that sort of logic.

从多罗修斯和瓦伦斯时代起，这种做法就一直存在，即关注各宫的主宰星。

And that's something that was always there from very early in the tradition from Dorotheus and Valens onwards, so looking at the rulers of the houses.

不过有趣的是，直到雷托里乌斯才在第五十七章首次系统性地尝试梳理当各宫主宰星落入不同宫位时的情形，而随着传统的发展，这逐渐成为一种标准的基础技法。

Although it is interesting that it's not really till Rhetorius that you do get him for the first time in chapter 57 where he systematically tries to go through and delineate the rulers of the houses when they're in different houses, And that's something that as the tradition progressed became much more standard as basic technique.

但到目前为止，在这一第一类中，我们有了这个概念。

But we've got here the idea so far in this first category.

我们有了通过相对位置形成的对比概念，同时一个行星的态度和兴趣与掌管该宫位的相反行星混合在一起。

We've got the idea of a contrasting place by opposition, but also having a planet's attitude and interests being mixed with contrary planets who are in charge of that place.

对。

Right.

好的。

Okay.

那么回到你的引述。

So back to your quotes.

第二个

The second

引述，我这里只有一个，就是关于腐化和瓦解的概念。

quote, and I just have one here, is the idea of corruption and disintegration.

同样，这个概念认为一个健康的人或健康的身体具有某种完整性、平衡和凝聚力。

And again, this is the idea that a healthy person or a healthy body has a kind of integrity and balance and cohesion.

但一个生病的身体是正在瓦解的，缺乏凝聚力且更加失衡，因此他们用‘wabao’（不健康）这个词来描述陷落宫位的特征。

But a sick body is one that is falling apart and has less cohesion and more imbalance, and that's why they use the word 'wabao', 'unhealthiness', to describe the sign of detriment.

所以当他谈到孩子时，他说：如果你在这些行星的不健康状态下找到它们，他就不会有孩子。

So when he's talking about children, he says, And if you found these planets in their unhealthiness, he will not have children.

他列出了一些行星，这些最终都源自瓦伦斯和多罗透斯。

He lists some planets, and these eventually ultimately come from Valens and Dorotheus.

如果你在这些行星的不健康状态下找到它们，他就不会有孩子。

If you find these planets in their unhealthiness, he will not have children.

而如果它们被提升，也就是说，如果他确实有孩子，他会因为这些孩子而感到悲伤。

While if they were raised, that is if he did have children, he'll be saddened because of them.

好的。

Okay.

所以这相当于对宫位在最佳情况下本应代表之事物的一种腐化。

So a sort of corruption of what the house is supposed to signify under the best case scenario.

是的，它要么直接腐化并瓦解该主题本身，要么即使该主题被实现，也会导致后来的事物分崩离析。

Yeah, it either corrupts and disintegrates the topic itself, or even if the topic is produced, it makes things fall apart later.

好的。

Okay.

这让我想到，这可能也是另一个概念，随着时间推移，逐渐与损害这一概念融合，并帮助其自然发展，这在希腊化传统的早期就已出现。

That reminds me then, and this is also probably another concept that may have, again, over time tied into and helped this concept of detriment to develop organically is very early in the Hellenistic tradition.

在安提俄库斯和波菲利的著作中，他们定义了‘对抗’这一概念：当一颗行星在星盘中位置良好，但如果它位于一个由凶星守护的星座，而该凶星本身又位于第六宫或第十二宫等不利位置时，它就会拖累或对抗原行星的含义，从而以某种方式扭曲或伤害它们。

In Antiochus and then Porphyry, you have the definition of the concept of counteraction that they say when a planet is well situated in the chart, if it's in a sign ruled by a malefic and the malefic is itself poorly placed in like the sixth or the twelfth house, then it can drag down or counteract the significations of the original planet and it can sort of corrupt them or maltreat them in some way.

嗯。

Mhmm.

因此，当一颗行星不在自己的星座时，它高度依赖该星座的宫主星，这对希腊化占星家来说至关重要。

So that notion of a planet when it's not in its own sign really relying on the domicile lord of that sign was like a big deal to the Hellenistic astrologers.

这同样可以解释，或者至少指向一个原因：为什么一颗行星位于一个由具有相反基本原理的行星所守护的星座中，会对该行星的功能造成问题。

And this again could be a reason why or could point to a reason why a planet being in a sign ruled by a planet that has contrary basic principles could be problematic to the functioning of that planet.

嗯。

Mhmm.

好的。

All right.

然后你还有几个。

And then you have a few more.

我还有一个类别，然后是一个特殊话题。

I have one more category and then a special topic.

所以第三个类别涉及与外国人、旅行以及其他一些事情相关的内容，包括我发现的类似‘落陷’的现象：当一颗行星处于落陷状态时，它可能表示某些被视为不寻常、反主流或不被认可的事物，即与熟悉的事物相悖。

So this third category is things that have to do with foreigners, travel, and some other things, including something that I found also is that similarly to fall, a planet in detriment can show something that is considered unusual or countercultural or disapproved of, like it's contrary to what's familiar.

所以这里有一些例子。

So here are a few examples here.

第一个来自索尔的《命盘集》，这是关于旅行的章节。

So the first one from Saul's Nativities, this is the chapters on travel.

如果你发现月亮与其自身宫位相悖，且上升宫主星与上升点相悖，那么命主的生计将位于其父母的国家之外。

And if you found the Moon contrary to her own house and the Lord of the Ascendant contrary to the Ascendant, then the native's livelihood will be outside of his parents' country.

是的。

Mhmm.

还有其他一些段落也提到了太阳。

And there's other passages too that include the Sun in this.

这意味着，描述命主自身以及命主成长环境和故乡的行星，如果位于相反的位置，那么命主就会在国外或不同的故乡从事这些事情。

So it means that the planets that are describing the native and that also describe the native's upbringing and homeland, if they are in the opposite places, then the native will do those things abroad or in a different homeland.

所以在外国人、旅行和陌生人方面。

So among foreigners, travel, and strangers.

明白了。

Got it.

好的。

Okay.

下一个来自关于宗教的章节，内容非常相似。

The next one is And this from one of the chapters on religion, and it's very similar.

我认为这基于拉提奥里乌斯的一段文字。

I think it's based on a passage in Rhetorius.

有几对情况是这样的。

There's a couple that are like this.

是的。

Yeah.

意思是，上一个和拉赫托里乌斯对月亮的描述非常相似，而拉赫托里乌斯当时引用了更早那位作者的诗句。

Mean, last one was very similar to Rhetorius' delineation of the Moon, and then Rhetorius quoted that earlier author in verse.

所以我们能看到希腊解释的延续。

So it's like we can see a continuation of the Greek interpretation.

嗯。

Mhmm.

在中间那段中，如果灵之宫的守护星与自身相克，即处于落陷状态，则预示着越轨、愚昧和诽谤。

And in the middle passage, if the Lord of the Lot of Spirit was contrary to itself, so in detriment, it indicates transgression, foolishness, and slander.

这与拉赫托里乌斯的段落相似，因为拉赫托里乌斯提到这个人会说异语之类的事情。

And this is similar to the passage in Rhetorius because Rhetorius talks about this as the person will speak in tongues and this sort of thing.

嗯。

Mhmm.

不知怎的，

Somehow,

很难判断这个人是疯了，神志不清，还是被某种奇异的智慧所启示，但已不再是原来的自己。

it's hard to tell whether this person is a lunatic, like they're out of their minds, or whether they're inspired maybe by strange wisdom somehow, but they're not themselves.

如果你觉得这像是通灵或说方言之类的，你仍然是你自己，但同时也在传递某种其他东西。

If you think like maybe channeling or speaking in tongues or something, you're you, but you're also channeling something else.

是的。

Yeah.

因此，这似乎是一种跨越界限、进入不同维度的现象，可能表现为疯狂，也可能是一种灵感。

And so, that seems to be the kind of crossing the boundaries into a different dimension, could either be lunacy or an inspiration.

而且，灵点本应代表心智与理智，瓦伦斯和多罗修斯某种程度上也是这么描述的。

Well, and also just the idea that the Lot of Spirit is supposed to signify the mind and intellect, and that's how Valens talks about it and how Dorotheus talks about it to some extent.

而当你面对相反的情况，或必须引入对立概念时，就会出现一个人内心产生智力冲突，或以某种方式否定自己的思想。

And what happens when you have the opposite of that or you have to incorporate the notion of contrariety is when a person has internal intellectual conflicts with themself or is like canceling out their own thoughts in some way.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以我们有了来自修辞家的这段引文。

So we have that quote from Rhetorius.

这里说的是霍尔登的译本。

Here it says This is Holden's translation.

它说：灵之位的主宰与灵之位相克，会使那些提供建议不佳、持有相反观点的人变得自夸且无礼。

It says, The ruler of the Lot of Spirit being opposed to the Lot of Spirit makes those who give poor advice, those with contrary opinions braggarts and insolent persons.

所以‘相反的观点’很有趣，因为这几乎就像今天我们仍使用的‘反叛者’这个词，指那些为了反对而反对、总爱在辩论中选择对立面的人。

So contrary opinions is interesting because it's almost like somebody who likes to be contrary or contrarian is a term that we still use today of somebody that likes to pick the opposite side in debates just for the sake of being contrary.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而且你这里还有来自索尔的另一段话：灵之位观察其自身主宰时，从其不健康的状态出发。

And yeah, you've got another one here from Saul, the lot of the spirit looking at its own lord from its unhealthiness.

这是一个更复杂的说法，但属于类似的情况。

This is a more complicated one, but it's a similar kind of thing.

这个人是疯了，还是在传达某种极其重要的东西？

Is this person off their rocker, or are they channeling something really important?

对。

Right.

甚至连提奥菲勒斯也提到这一点：灵之位的主宰与之相克，会使那些缺乏判断力、持有相反观点的人变得傲慢且无礼。

And then even Theophilus picks up on this saying, The ruler of the lot of spirit opposing it makes those indiscreet of counsel with contrary opinions boastful and insolent persons.

第三个类别中的第三段引文来自阿布·马沙尔。

And the third passage from this third category comes from Abu Ma'shar.

是的，好的。

Yeah, okay.

我们已经见过类似的说法。

We've seen versions of this.

这出现在推运法中。

This is in profections.

假设你正在推运上升点，当到达第七宫时，他称之为婚姻宫。

So suppose you're profecting the Ascendant and you come to the seventh house he calls the house of wedding.

嗯。

Mhmm.

在真实的太阳回归年中，其主星和月亮正与它们自己的宫位或旺相宫位相对。

And in the revolution that is in real time at the solar revolution, its lord and the Moon are opposing their own houses or exaltations.

那么，回归年的主人，即客户，将会憎恨自己的祖国，并前往另一个国家。

Then the owner of the revolution, the client, will hate his own country and travel to another.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以这类似于一种尊严作为家园、不利作为旅行，但也是一种敌意的形式。

So this is a similar issue of dignity as a homeland, detriment as travel, but also as a form of hostility.

是的。

Yeah.

有趣的是，将这一点融入到一种定时技术中，使得这些位置指示命盘的潜在可能性，但这种潜在可能性只有在被时间主星激活时才会真正发生或实现。

And interestingly, and then incorporating that into a timing technique so that it's like those positions indicate the natal promise, but that natal promise won't actually happen or be delivered until it's activated as a time lord.

嗯。

Mhmm.

很有趣。

It's interesting.

我们之前讨论过这个吗？

Did we talk about that?

我的意思是，这不仅仅是因为行星在自己的星座中就是在家，而不利就是远离家园。

Mean, it's not because it's not just the idea of a planet being in its sign, being at home, and then detriment being away from home.

但一个行星的失势星座，在黄道上恰恰是离该行星 domicile 最远的位置。

But the sign of a planet's detriment would literally be in the zodiac as far as you can get away from a planet's domicile.

因此，他们将这种情况解释为远离家园、家园的对立面，甚至被逐出家园、流放，因为与行星 domicile 相对的星座在黄道上确实是该行星能离家最远的地方。

So that's why they would be interpreting it as being away from home or the opposite of home or even being cast out of your home and banished because the sign opposite to a planet's domicile is literally as far in the zodiac as a planet can get away from from its home.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

那么，我想我这里最后要谈的是几个特殊主题：收养和通奸。

So then I think the last thing I had here were some special topics, adoption and adultery.

这两个概念都源自古代文献。

And both of these come from ancient sources.

关于收养，或者说你被声称是另一个父亲的孩子，这一点来自多罗西乌斯第114条、第六句，以及瓦伦斯二月篇的末尾。

And so, the first one about adoption or you being alleged to be the child of a different father, this comes from Dorotheus 114, Sentence six, and the very end of Valens February.

在索尔的命盘中，有几种不同的版本。

And there's several versions of this in Saul's nativities.

我不知道。

I don't know.

他非常喜欢这个材料，所以说了三遍甚至四遍。

He liked the material so much he had to say it three times or four times.

好的。

Okay.

但这个说法有几个版本。

But there's a couple versions of this.

如果父亲命点的对宫主星位于命点上，或者该行星从其自身的落陷宫位观察命点——等等，这样说很别扭。

If the lord of the opposite sign of the Lot of the Father is on the Lot or if that planet looks at the Lot from its own sign of detrimentwait a minute, that is said very awkwardly.

他们主要使用的是：如果对宫（即落陷宫位）的主星位于命点上，并且处于其自身的落陷宫位，这会带来一种感觉，可能还伴随着怀疑和不道德之类的含义。

The main one they use is if the lord of the sign that's opposite the lotso the lord of the sign of detrimentis on the lot and so is in its own sign of detrimentit's going to bring that sense of and probably also suspicion and immorality and that kind of thing.

这会将这种影响带到父亲这个主题上。

It's going to bring that to the topic of the father.

你的父亲并不是你的亲生父亲，真正的父亲是别人。

Your father isn't your father, it's someone else who's your father.

对。

Right.

所以它把‘其他’这个概念带入到该主题中。

So it brings the idea of the other to whatever that topic is.

基本上，失势宫的主宰星位于你所关注的宫位中。

Basically the lord of the sign of detriment is in the sign that you're looking at.

同样地，在通奸方面，索尔引用了一段我们可以追溯到多罗西乌斯的文本。

And similarly with adultery, Saul uses a passage that we can trace back to Dorotheus.

这里有两个可能的例子。

There's two possible examples here.

要么是婚姻之lot的对宫主宰星位于婚姻之lot上，要么是婚姻之lot的主宰星位于第七宫，即其失势宫。

Either the lord of that opposite sign of the lot of marriage is on the lot and or the lord of the lot of marriage is in the seventh from the lot, namely in its detriment.

在这些情况下，索尔和多罗西乌斯谈到通奸、秘密养情妇之类的事情。

And in those cases, Saul and Dorotheus talk about adultery and keeping secret mistresses and that sort of thing.

所以这是与他人发生的不道德且隐秘的性行为。

So it's immoral and secret sex with other people.

对。

Right.

所以在这两种情况下，将它们联系起来的是：你如何在星盘中判断，到底是外部因素，还是理论上应该对应的人。

So in both instances, the thing that's tying it together is just how would you identify in a chart if it was the other versus the person who it's supposed to be theoretically.

我认为这也与‘腐败’或‘不良’的一般含义有关。

And that I think also ties back to some of the general meanings of being corrupt or bad.

我在客户案例中也见过这种情况，一个处于落陷状态的行星，也可能代表那些变坏的人或事物，他们在做坏事。

And I've seen this in client work too where a planet in detriment can also mean things and people that go bad that are doing bad things.

当然。

Sure.

我的意思是，它可能朝任何一方发展。

I mean, it can go either way.

它可能是正面的，也可能是负面的。

It can be positive or negative.

我们来谈谈这个。

Let's talk about that.

我的意思是，我其实想快速读一下这段文字，因为这段来自多罗西厄斯的文本非常有趣，是你翻译的多罗西厄斯中关于父亲的那一段。

I mean, I did wanna read this passage really quickly because I have It was a really interesting passage, the father one from Dorotheus, from your translation of Dorotheus.

它说起来有点复杂，你得在括号里加个结，但原文写道：‘看看哪个行星是父宫所在星座的主星。’

And it says It's kind of complicated, you had to insert a knot in brackets, but it says, And see who is the lord of the sign in which the lot of fathers is.

如果你发现它没有照临父宫，或者发现父宫的主星位于它自己的宫位，或者位于与父宫星座相对的星座，那么这个命主就会被归于一个并非其亲生父亲的人。

For if you found it not looking at the lot or you found the lord of the lot in what follows its own house or the lord of the sign opposed to the sign that the lot is on that is on the lot, then the native will be attributed to someone who is not his father.

嗯。

Mhmm.

瓦伦斯实际上对此有更清晰的表述，我可以读一下。

And Valens actually has a clearer statement of that which I can read.

好的。

Okay.

我这就翻到这儿了。

I have it up right here.

它在二月底的部分。

It's at the end of February.

所以，他说，考虑收养的问题。

And so, he says, Take the adoption.

在这里，他似乎在讨论父亲的收养，也就是说，父亲本人是否被收养。

Now here, he seems to be talking about the adoption of the father, that is to say whether the father himself is adopted.

好的。

Okay.

因此，从从命运点垂直落下的直径中，找出父亲的收养情况。

So, Take the adoption of the father from the diameter that is dropped down from the lot.

所以你要先找到父亲的命运点，然后找出它的直径。

So you find the lot of the father and then find its diameter.

如果父亲命运点的主宰星恰好位于该直径上，或者该直径的主宰星位于命运点上，就表明父亲是被收养的。

If the lord of the lot of the father should happen to be upon the diameter or the lord of that diameter upon the lot, it indicates that the father was adopted.

好的。

Okay.

同样地，如果母亲命运点的主宰星——他说对母亲也有相同或类似的说法——那么母亲就是被收养的。

Similarly also, if the lord of the lot of the motherand he says the same or similar things for the motherthen the mother is adopted.

所以他们可能对这个说法具体适用于谁——是本人还是父亲——并没有完全达成一致，但我们刚才讨论的这些相同因素表明，其他人要么与错误的人发生关系，要么被其他人收养。

So they might not all have agreed on exactly who this applied to, the native or the father, But some of these very same factors we've been talking about mean that other people are either sleeping around with other people and the wrong people or you've been adopted by other people.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，再次提到这种‘他者化’的概念，这本质上是第一宫与第七宫之间的区别。

So just this idea of, again, this idea of othering, and it's a very first house versus seventh house type thing.

在早期传统中，比如赫尔墨斯文本里，正是如此：第一宫象征生命，第七宫象征死亡。

That's also where seventh house in the early tradition in like the Hermes text, there's that contrast between the first house signifying life and the seventh house signifying death.

但在后来的一些文本中，甚至在某些情况下，旅行也被与第七宫联系起来。

But later in some of the texts, even like travel gets associated in some instances with the seventh house.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这不仅仅是对比，你还被抚养在别人家里。

Again, it's not just the contrast, but you're being raised in someone else's house.

别人

Someone

而是别人在照顾你。

else is taking care of you.

所以，如果你是被别人抚养长大的，这种对立未必是坏事。

So this opposition doesn't have to be a bad thing if you were being taken care of somebody else.

对。

Right.

它只是意味着你不是出自原生家庭之类的。

It just means it's not your original family or what have you.

或者在另一种情况下，我们谈论的是流放之类的情况，你身处一个外国或异文化中，某种程度上，仅仅因为这一点，你就以某种方式格格不入。

Or in another instance, we're talking about, let's say, banishment or something, you're in a foreign country or a foreign culture, and in some ways, just as a result of that, in and of itself, you are out of place in some way.

也许我们可以用另一个词来形容，就是‘格格不入’，但这种情况是好是坏，很大程度上取决于行星的状态及其与吉星和凶星的配置。

Maybe that's another phrase we could use, out of place, but whether that works out well or works out poorly is going to really depend on the condition of the planet and its configuration with benefics and malefics and things like that.

真正关键的，某种程度上，就是这种‘格格不入’的定位本身。

It's just the the out of placeness of the placement that really is the key focus in some ways.

嗯。

Mhmm.

因此，也许使落陷如此类似于流放的原因在于，你处于另一颗行星的位置，但在某些方面更糟，因为你处于一颗意义相反的行星的位置。

And so maybe what makes detriment so similar to alienation where you're in another planet's place, but in some ways worse than it is because you're in the place of a planet with contrary meanings.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

那么，让我们把这个类比进一步延伸，因为我真的想强调这一点，因为我想要深入探讨一下落陷在实际中的解释。

So okay, let's take that analogy further because that's something I really want to emphasize about this because I want to get into a little bit the actual interpretation of detriment in practice.

有时候，如果 domicile 主星不在那里，或者说它是一颗凶星，并且形成刑克或有非常困难的相位，与星盘派别相悖，这颗行星正遭受重创，那么处于落陷状态的行星也会被重创，这种‘不合时宜’会带来负面和不良的结果，导致其所代表的事物出现不好的结局。

Sometimes if the domicile lord's not there or let's say it's a malefic and it's squaring or has a really hard aspect and is contrary to the sect and that planet's just getting hammered, the planet in detriment is getting hammered, that being out of place is gonna be something bad and negative and is gonna result in not very good outcomes for whatever it signifies.

但如果 domicile 主星在那里，或者以某种方式提供支持，那就像是身处一个与你本国文化截然不同的外国，但你得到了主人的支持，或许你能适应这种环境，而不是一直被压迫。

But if the domicile lord is there or it's being supportive in some way, it's like being in a foreign country that's different has a very different culture from your own, but you're getting support from your hosts and perhaps you're able to adapt to that rather than have that be something that's continually oppressive.

起初可能会很困难。

It might be difficult at first.

实际上，我最近和一个人聊过，他用自己的星盘作为落陷的例子，他的水星正处于落陷状态。

And actually, I spoke to somebody recently who was using their chart as an example of detriment and they had Mercury in its detriment.

他们说他们出生在另一个国家，五岁时搬到了美国，不得不学习英语。

And they said that they were born in a different country, and then they moved to The US when they were five, and they had to learn English.

但一开始他们感到非常格格不入，在完全不同的文化中，又不会说当地语言，感到很不舒服。

But they were very out of place, and they felt very uncomfortable at first being in a completely different culture and not speaking the language.

但随着这个人长大，他们最终克服了这些困难，学会了语言，甚至成为了一名非常出色的作家。

But then eventually as the person grew up, they were able to overcome that and to learn the language and then actually become a really fantastic writer.

这对我来说是一个关于‘落陷’以及这些类比如何在实践中发挥作用的绝佳例子。

Was a really good example to me of detriment and using some of these analogies and how they might work out in practice.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

那你还有更多引述吗？就这些引述了吗？

So did you have any more quotes, is that all the quotes?

没有了。

Nope.

这些就是所有的引文。

Those are the quotes.

好的。

Okay.

所以

So

我认为，你提出的关于中世纪传统中这种表现的三个类别，与我们之前看到的希腊化传统中的表现非常相似：第一类是内在的分裂与矛盾。

I think then So your three categories of how this comes out in the Medieval tradition is is very similar to I think as we saw how it comes out in the Hellenistic tradition, which is category one is like inner division and contrarity.

第二类是你所说的腐败与瓦解。

Category two that you said is corruption and disintegration.

第三类是外来事物、陌生人和他者。

And category three is foreign things, strangers and others.

以及旅行。

And travel.

是的。

Yeah.

还有旅行。

And travel.

好的。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

到目前为止，我们大多数时候都戴着历史学家的帽子。

What do we Historically, we've had our historian hats on most of the time here.

那么，历史总结是什么？

And what is the historical summary then?

历史总结是，‘损害’在希腊化传统早期似乎并未被作为本质属性引入，但从至少多罗西乌斯和瓦伦斯开始，它就被视为一种次要属性，可能因多种原因而产生问题。

The historical summary is that detriment doesn't seem to have been introduced as an essential sign quality early in the Hellenistic tradition, but it does seem from a relatively early stage from at least Dorotheus and Valens onward to be treated as a secondary quality that could be problematic for a few different reasons.

其中一个原因是它与行星 domicile 的对立性质相关，并且开始与行星 domicile 主宰者与该宫位形成回避关系归为一类。

One of them because of the nature of the opposition to a planet's domicile, and it started being grouped together with a planet's domicile lord being in aversion to that sign.

其次，根据后来拉提奥里乌斯的解释，还可能通过该星座的主星所具有的与落入其落陷星座的行星意义相反的象征性质来体现。

And then secondarily, potentially, as Rhetorius later interpreted it, through the quality of the domicile lord of the sign having significations that are opposite to that planet whose sting is a guest in the sign of its detriment.

是的，我认为可能有好几件事同时发生了，因为你很快就会意识到，对冲是一种特殊类型的相位，因为它带来了其他相位不一定涉及的额外考量。

Yeah, I think several things perhaps all happened at once because you realize pretty quickly that the opposition is a special kind of aspect because it brings in extra considerations that other aspects don't necessarily do.

对。

Right.

甚至一些占星师可能考虑到，在希腊化传统中，基于星座的相位仍然非常重要。

Even potentially some of the astrologers because in Hellenistic tradition, sign based aspects were still very important.

嗯。

Mhmm.

一些占星师可能还考虑了其他因素，比如元素属性，这会使他们以某种方式解读，而像托勒密这样的其他希腊化占星师可能没有考虑这些，因此没有走得那么远。

And some of the astrologers may have taken into account additional things like the elemental qualities that would have made them interpret it a certain way versus other Hellenistic astrologers like Ptolemy may not have taken that into account, so may not have gone as far in that direction.

所以看来，这个概念确实没有在最初的入门文本中像本宫、尊位和落陷那样被明确定义，而只是后来才逐渐获得这样的地位。

So it does seem that the concept though wasn't I mean, we have to say it wasn't defined in the initial introductory texts in the same way as domicile and exaltation and fall were, and it only later started to get that.

所以我认为，到了阿布·马沙尔的时代，他已经明确地将它与其他性质并列定义了，对吧？

So I think by the time of Abu Ma'shar, he does firmly define it with the other qualities, right?

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

索尔也定义了它，所以我们说的是八九世纪。

And Saul also defines it, so we're talking eighth and ninth centuries.

好的。

Okay.

从某种意义上说，雷托里乌斯在六七世纪也这么做了。

And for all intents and purposes, Rhetorius does as well in the sixth or seventh century.

因此，正是在这个时期，它被明确确立了，但之前已有先例。

So it's that time frame when it becomes firmly established, but it has earlier precedent.

我们想知道的是，因为擢升和落陷似乎非常直接简单，每个人都定义了它们，术语也已存在，人人都明白它们的含义。

What we want to know is because exaltation and fall seem pretty straightforward and simple and everyone defines them and the vocabulary is there and everyone knows what they mean.

对。

Right.

所以问题在于，这其中很大一部分是带有损害的拼凑物吗？

So the question is much of this is a patchwork with detriment?

有多少是他们随意拼凑起来的东西，有多少是真正存在的、需要被识别但花了时间才逐渐成型的相互关联的特征？

How much of it is a patchwork of things that they just sort of cobbled together versus interrelated features that are really there that you have to recognize but took time to coalesce.

这些因素只是在那里等着被发现。

The factors are just laying there.

它们所等待的只是一个名字，而'enantioma'似乎就是那个名字。

All they're waiting for is a name, which enantioma seems to have been the name.

我的意思是，如果你看看我列出的类别——分割与对立、腐化与瓦解、异质性、旅行、他人——那么一颗行星自己的宫位恰恰是所有这些的对立面。

I mean, if you look at the categories I have, the division and contrariety, corruption and disintegration, and foreignness, travel, others, well, a planet's own house is precisely the contrary of all of those.

它是一个统一与同一性的场所。

It is a place of unity and sameness.

它是一个健康、协调努力与自主性的场所。

It's a place of healthiness and coordination of effort and autonomy.

自主性，以及家园之地。

And autonomy and a place of the homeland.

所以，他们并不是偶然发现了一些东西，然后以一种人为的方式随意拼凑起来，因为行星的本宫确实意味着与所有这些事物完全相反。

So it's not like they casually came across some things and then kind of wove it together in this artificial way because a planet's own house really does mean the opposite of all these very same things.

对。

Right.

所以，也许之所以花这么长时间才形成这种理解，是因为退陷比落陷更复杂，这可能就是我们没有看到对这一概念进行统一处理的原因。

So it could be that the reason it took a long time for this toit could be a reason that we don't see a really unified treatment of thisis simply that detriment is complicated in a way that fall is not.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这很复杂，而且在某种程度上，你几乎可以把它视为理所当然。

I mean, it's complicated and also you can almost take it for granted to a certain extent.

我之所以犹豫，是因为如果说你可以把它视为理所当然，可能会被指责为时代错置。

I hesitate because I could be charged with being anachronistic to say that you can take it for granted.

当然，我们也必须小心，尤其是在处理这类问题时。

Certainly, we have to be careful too, especially when it comes to issues like this.

因为如果有人带着文艺复兴时期的观念走进来，期望在阅读菲米库斯或托勒密的原著时能找到退陷的概念，但若他们诚实阅读后发现这些文本中根本没有提到，或至少没有明确提及，那么你就必须意识到，不能想当然地认为它存在。

Because somebody walking in from the Renaissance tradition and just expecting that detriment would be there if they actually read Firmicus or Ptolemy honestly and realized that it's not there in those texts or at least they don't mention it, then you have to realize that you can't just assume it's there.

但如果像行星具有自我自主性、处于家园状态或其他一些概念是‘ domicile ’这一概念固有的部分，那么从某种程度上说，行星的对立面、与之相对的星座，就自然成为这一概念的延伸——即这个星座或宫位本身就具有某种对立的特质，这或许曾被视为理所当然。

But if some of those ideas like a planet having self autonomy or being at home or other things are inherent in the concept of domicile, then to a certain extent a planet being opposite and a sign opposite to that, that it's a natural extension of that, that there's something opposite about that sign or that house so that it may have been kind of a given.

是的。

Yeah.

这涉及到一个问题：当我们试图重建这些材料时，我们究竟处于优势还是劣势？

It's that question of how much are we at an advantage or disadvantage when we're trying to reconstruct this material.

对。

Right.

我们处于劣势，因为我们并不生活在他们的世界里，因此我们无法确定他们哪些是视为理所当然的。

Because we're at a disadvantage because we don't live in their world, so we're not always sure what they took for granted.

但另一方面，我们所能接触到的语言和文献远比他们任何一个人所拥有的都要多，因此我们能够从外部进行整体审视，这其实是一个巨大的优势。

But on the other hand, we have access to way more languages and texts than any one of them did, And so, we're able to survey from the outside, which can be a real advantage.

有时候，正是局外人更能看清事物的本质。

Sometimes it takes an outsider to see things.

是的，获得一种鸟瞰的视角，而这正是我们通过展示这些不同引文所试图提供的。

Yeah, to get kind of a bird's eye view, which is what we've tried to provide here by showing all of these different quotes.

所以你看到的不是孤立的某一个东西，而是这些不同的占星师如何用非常相似的措辞将这些内容联系起来，并归入类似的类别。

So instead of just being like one thing in isolation, you're seeing how all these different astrologers are tying this together using very similar wording and grouping it together in similar categories.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我在想，为了总结这次讨论，还有一些要点需要提及，但我们还漏掉了什么？

So I'm trying to think of There's a few points still to touch on in order to wrap this up, but what else are we missing?

我想说的是，不管实际情况如何，不管真实的故事是什么，我们可以肯定地说，我们一直在研究的这种‘落陷’类别是真实存在的。

I guess I just wanna say whatever was going on, whatever the real story is, I think we can say that these kinds of categories that we've been looking at with detriment are real.

它们是真实的，因为它们会立即引出占星学中的其他概念。

They are real because they immediately draw in other concepts from astrology.

即使‘落陷’很复杂，它依然显得独特。

It makes detriment special even if it's complicated.

是的。

Yeah.

对我来说，这最重要、最有趣的地方在于，它让‘失势’这个概念变得鲜活起来，远比后来传统中那种扁平、二维的视角更真实、更有趣——在那种视角里，如果你拥有 domicile，就得五分，而如果你处于失势状态，就扣四分，或者 whatever 的计分系统。

And that's what's actually the most important and interesting about this to me is it makes detriment come alive in a way that's much more real and much more interesting than just the sort of flat two dimensional view of it that it sort of became in the later tradition where it was just like, well, if you have domicile, then you get five points, but if you get you're in detriment, you get negative four points or whatever the counting system was.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

在这里，你可以从中提炼出具体的概念含义，然后开始在实际星盘中寻找并应用这些含义，方式非常具体，甚至可能意义深远。

Here, there's specific conceptual meanings that you can extract from it and then begin to look for and apply in example charts in very concrete and potentially profound ways.

我的意思是，这里有趣的是，有时希腊化时期的占星家们关注的是个人生活中具体的外在表现，但有时他们实际上谈论的是内在的东西，比如当他们谈到‘灵性点’的守护星，以及一个人产生相反的想法或观点之类的情况。

I mean, what's interesting here is that occasionally, of the Hellenistic astrologers are looking at concrete external manifestations in the person's life, but sometimes they're actually talking about internal things, like when they're talking about the ruler of the Lot of Spirit and the person having contrary thoughts or contrary opinions or things like that.

他们实际上是在某种意义上谈论‘失势’的心理学背景。

They're talking about almost like a psychological context of detriment in some way.

哦，对，索尔提到过犹豫不决，说你所追求的东西同时也在沉重地压着你。

Oh, well, Saul talking about reluctance and that the thing that you're aiming for is also weighing heavily on you at the same time.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

因此，通过理解这一点，并且谨慎避免将这种观念倒推回去，我们现在也能接触到其中的细微差别和细节。

So there's a level of nuance and detail that's there as well that's accessible now to us by understanding this and also by being careful not to project this backwards.

因为我认为，人们在研究这个时常常遇到的一个问题是：你可能会寻找这种 Renaissance 时代的缺陷概念，认为它是一种固有的星座特质。

Because I think that's one of the issue that people sometimes run into when they look at this is that you could be looking for, well, this is the Renaissance concept of detriment that it's like an inherent sign quality.

所以，如果我们回溯过去，没有在希腊化传统中看到像‘尊贵’或‘ domicile’那样的固有星座特质，就认为这个概念不存在。

And so if we look back and we don't see an inherent sign quality like the concept of exaltation or domicile in the Hellenistic tradition, then the concept doesn't exist.

但实际上，缺陷这个概念是在传统发展过程中，由一系列相互重叠的含义逐渐演变而来的，直到公元七至九世纪才最终固化为一个概念，之后又被简化为更加单一的形式。

When in fact, what happened is it was developing detriment developed out of this constellation of different overlapping meanings during the course of the tradition before it eventually became crystallized as a concept in like the seventh through the ninth century, and then later after that sort of flattened out into something much more more simple.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的，缺陷涉及更多相互关联的思想体系。

Yeah, you've got more of an interrelated constellation of ideas with detriment.

如果你仔细观察，每一个似乎都暗示着另一个，而这在‘落陷’中是看不到的。

Each one seems to kind of imply the other if you look at it closely in a way that you don't really see with fall.

对。

Right.

但我喜欢你的观点，他们可能使用了‘enantioma’这个词，因为对当时的人来说，这个词已经蕴含了这些复杂的含义。

But I like your idea that they might have used that word enantioma because to them, it already implied several of these complicated things.

但我们没有意识到，当他们用这种方式使用这个词时，这个词可能对他们产生的直接影响。

But we don't appreciate the immediate effect that that word might have had on them when they used it in that way.

是的。

Yeah.

我本该去查阅《利德尔-斯科特希腊语词典》，因为这本古希腊语词典实际上列出了‘enantioma’这个词的几个次要含义，它主要意思是‘对立’或‘相反’，但也提到‘不相容’、‘冲突的差异’和‘矛盾’。

And I should have read the entry of the Liddell and Scott Lexicon, the Greek dictionary for ancient Greek, because it actually has a few sub meanings of other translations of the meaning of the term enantioma, which it says primarily means opposition or opposite, but it also means, they say, incompatibility, conflicting differences, and discrepancies.

因此，这一点已经开始呼应我们在占星家后来的某些解释中看到的那些术语。

So that right there starts picking up a lot of the terms where we see the astrologers going with that in some of their later interpretations.

我想补充一点。

I would just want to add.

我这里用的是标准的阿拉伯语韦尔词典，不是更早的莱恩词典。

I have here this is the standard Ware dictionary of Arabic, so this is not the older Lane dictionary.

但它也指出，我们从这个词中得到的一个词是解毒剂或避孕药。

But it also points out that one of the words that we get from this is an antidote or a contraceptive.

嗯。

Mhmm.

还有抗菌剂，所以这些事物的作用是明确地与别的东西相对抗。

And antiseptics, so things that are working are explicitly working contrary to something else.

对。

Right.

我喜欢这一点。

I love that.

是的。

Yeah.

这总让我想到‘对立’这个词，我希望它在句子中用起来更自然一些，而不是这么别扭。

That keeps taking me back to antithesis, I wish that worked better in a sentence and wasn't as awkward.

但我书中的主要术语仍然是那两个：一个是‘逆境’，来自拉丁语对《赫尔墨斯的麻风病人》中‘enantioma’的翻译，他们将其译为‘adversitas’；另一个是‘流放’，这很有趣，因为当我研究时发现，除了英语之外，还有许多其他语言，比如法语和葡萄牙语，表示‘损害’的术语之一实际上是‘流放’。

But my primary terms are still The two I had in my book were adversity, which was from what the Latin translation of the leper hermetis, how they translated, I think, enantioma, where they translated it as adversitas, and then exile, which is interesting because when I researched this, it turned out a bunch of other languages besides English, like I think in French and Portuguese, term for detriment, one of their terms for detriment is actually exile.

所以这个概念一直延续到了现代占星术和其他一些语言中，即行星处于其弱势状态意味着被逐出家园，但不知为何这个说法没有进入英语。

So it continued into even the modern traditions of astrology and some other languages, this idea that a planet being in its detriment meant being cast out of one's home, but it just didn't make it into English for some reason.

所以这是一个可能的术语，最后是反义词。

So that is one potential term and then finally antithesis.

你之前在这集中还提到了另一个术语。

And you introduced one other term earlier in this episode.

我忘了那是什么，但那也是一个很好的术语。

I forget what it was, but that was a good one as well.

反转？

Inversion?

反转。

Inversion.

是的。

Yeah.

反转这个概念非常好，指的是对宫星座反转了行星的含义。

Inversion is really good, the idea of the opposite sign inverting the significations of the planets.

我们再回到 domicile 体系，看看为什么说——等等，让我分享一张图片。

Just going back to the domicile scheme and the notion that Here, let me share an image.

比如，金星或土星？不，以太阳在狮子座为例。

So for example, Venus is or Saturn No, the Sun in Leo, for example.

目前，太阳几天前刚刚进入狮子座。

So right now, the Sun just moved into Leo a few days ago.

我正在重读阿布·马沙尔对赫尔墨斯文本中关于赫尔墨斯为何将太阳分配给狮子座的解释。

And I was rereading Abu Ma'shar and his treatment from the Hermes text of why Hermes supposedly assigned the Sun to Leo.

这完全是因为将狮子座的15度视为夏季的高峰、白昼最长、气温最炽烈的时刻，正处在这个季节的中心，因此将太阳分配给狮子座或狮子座的十二分之一，正是基于这个原因。

It was entirely about assigning it to 15 degrees of Leo being the height of the summer and the height of the length of days and when the heat is at its most intense right in the middle of that season and then assigning the Sun that being the reason for why the Sun should rule the sign of Leo or the twelfth part of Leo.

与此相反的是，土星位于冬季的中心，统治着水瓶座，作为一年中白昼最短、寒冷最强烈的时期的对冲星座。

And then the opposite to that being Saturn being right in the middle of winter and ruling Aquarius as the opposing sign during the time of the year where the days are the shortest and the cold is sort of at the most intense.

嗯。

Mhmm.

就是这种对立特质的概念——如果把太阳放在水瓶座，正值寒冬，天气寒冷、白昼短促、阳光稀少；而把土星——这个寒冷、黑暗、不易观测的行星——放在狮子座，让它在这种环境下发挥作用，会发生什么？

So just that idea of like opposing qualities and then what happens if you take the Sun and you put it there in Aquarius during the middle of winter, when it's cold and the days are short and there's not much sunlight, versus taking Saturn in a cold dark planet that's not very visible and putting it in Leo and making it operate in that context.

你可以开始理解我所说的对立或反转的概念，即行星的反转位置。

You can sort of start to get the idea of, like I said, antithesis or inversion, the place of a planet's inversion.

好的。

All right.

不过，我想强调一点，从实际角度来看，值得肯定的是，落陷并不像末日一样严重。

One thing I do want to say though is just from a practical standpoint, I do think one good thing about this and one pushback that's important is the idea that detriment is not like the end of the world.

我认为，当人们第一次学习这个概念时，尤其是因为‘落陷’这个术语是后来才在传统中确立的，人们往往把它理解为一种极其糟糕的事情，认为如果某人有行星落陷，就意味着这个人有负面特质，或者这是末日，或者是一种严重的 affliction。

I think sometimes when people learn it, and especially because detriment became the term established later in the tradition, it was taken to mean that it's like this terrible, terrible thing to have or that if somebody has something in detriment, that it means something negative about them or that it's the end of the world or that it's a major affliction.

但很明显，即使在晚期希腊和早期中世纪传统中，这个概念被确立为一个相对重要的概念时，他们也并没有把它视为命盘中最糟糕的情况，对吧？

And I think one thing that's pretty clear is even once this gets established as a relatively significant concept in the late Hellenistic and early Medieval tradition, they were still not treating it as the worst thing that you could possibly have in your chart, right?

没错。

Right.

它通常只是与其他因素并列的一项。

It was often in a list of other things.

而且在那张清单里排得很靠后。

Was And way far down in that list.

我不确定是不是特别靠后，但确实它被提及的频率远低于落陷。

I don't know about way far down, but it was definitely not mentioned as often as fall.

对。

Right.

一些关于最糟糕状况的标准列表中，落陷、被太阳灼烧、逆行这些几乎总是先于落陷被提到，并且通常作为一个整体出现，而不会单独提及落陷。

Some of the standard lists of the worst things would be fall, being burned under the rays, being retrograde, those would almost always be mentioned before detriment and appear as a cluster without mentioning detriment.

好的。

Okay.

对我而言，过去十年中我过程中的很大一部分是，当我开始——因为我长期对它持保留态度，在阅读希腊化文本后发现它基本不存在，不知道该如何看待这一点——但最终，当我意识到它确实是希腊化传统中的一个概念后，我就开始留意并将其融入我的实践中。

And then for me, a large part of my process over the past decade is once I started to Because I was ambivalent about it for so long after reading the Hellenistic texts and finding it absent for the most part, not knowing what to make of that, Eventually, once I realized it was a concept in the Hellenistic tradition, I started to pay attention and integrate it into my practice.

过去十年的大部分时间，我都在研究这个问题，比如如果不是叫‘落陷’，那该叫什么，以及它在星盘中是如何体现的。

And most of the past decade has been spent working on that, like figuring out what to call it, if not detriment, and also seeing how it works out in charts.

从实践角度来看，我的主要结论是：虽然它可能暗示某种障碍的出现，或让人在生命某个方面感到疏离或格格不入，但正如我前面所说，如果这颗行星本身位置良好，仍可能因其他因素——比如与吉星的相位、宫位配置等——而顺利发展。

My main conclusion from a practical standpoint is that while it can indicate an obstacle that arises or a sense of otherness or alienation that the person has in some part of their life, like I said earlier, if the planet is well placed, it can still work out very well based on other considerations like configuration to benefics or house placement or other things like that.

而如果它同时受到其他因素的刑克，状态不佳，这时才会看到这些叠加因素让‘落陷’成为更严重的问题。

Whereas if it's afflicted, and has poor condition according to other things, that's when you can see those other compounding factors leading the detriment to be more of a problem.

我最喜欢的一个命盘例子是诗人玛雅·安吉洛，她的水星位于双鱼座。她年轻时经历过创伤，因为害怕自己声音的力量，认为自己说过的话导致了某件可怕的负面事件发生（大约五岁时），于是她停止了说话。

So one of my favorite chart examples, for example, is the poet Maya Angelou that has Mercury in Pisces, and she had a traumatic experience when she was younger that caused her to stop speaking because she was afraid of the power of her voice, and she thought that something she had said had caused this really negative event to happen when she was five or something.

因此，她多年没有开口说话。

So she stopped speaking for years.

但后来长大后，她逐渐找回了自己的声音，重新开始说话，最终成为了一位著名的诗人。

But then later when she grew up, she sort of got her voice back and started speaking again and then grew up to be, a famous poet, of course.

我认为水星与金星形成了某种相合或接近的相位，而且这个配置是正面的。

And I think Mercury is like in an it's in a adherence or a conjunction with Venus, and it's being bonafide.

因此，尽管最初存在障碍或问题，但也有积极的补偿因素，使她能够适应并强大地运用这一位置，尽管起初有困难。

So there's really positive counterbalancing factors so that even though there was that initial obstacle or problem, there was also a positive resolution, and she was able to adapt to it and become perfectly strong with that position despite the initial issues.

举个例子，我可以想到两个关于友谊的例子：第十一宫主星落入对宫且处于落陷状态。

Example could be well, two examples I can think of with friendship: the lord of the eleventh in detriment in the opposite house.

是的。

Mhmm.

你的朋友可能来自国家的其他地区。

Your friendships might be with people who live in other parts of the country.