《皮卡特里克斯》：一本占星魔法书

我负责了所有占星部分的内容。

I handled all the astrological portions of it.

我的拉丁文很差，但我能看着一份包含占星配方的文本，并相对准确地翻译出来。

My Latin is really bad, but I can look at a text with an astrological recipe and translate that reasonably accurately.

而约翰则负责了其余所有哲学和其他段落的繁重工作。

And then John handled all the rest of the heavy lifting in terms of the philosophical and other passages.

但我会说，我们这个文本的优势在于，从实践者的角度来看，我们正是专注于这一点。

But I would say that the advantage of our text is that from a practitioner standpoint, that's what we focused on.

我们希望确保占星内容清晰易懂，作为占星师，你可以看懂这些指引，并理解它们在实际制作护身符时的含义。

And we wanted to make sure that the astrology was intelligible, that you could look at that as an astrologer and you can understand what those directions meant in terms of actually making a talisman.

我认为，这正是我们翻译版本的最大优势。

And I think that that's really what the advantage of our translation is.

它没有学术译本所具备的社会学或历史背景，而那些背景也同样有其价值。

It doesn't have the sociological background or the historical background that the academic translations have and that's why they're useful as well.

但作为实践者，你想要的是：好吧，我对学习如何做这件事感兴趣。

But as a practitioner, you're looking to say, Okay, I'm interested in learning how to do this.

但问题是，你在使用《皮卡特里克斯》之前，必须先掌握择时占星术。

Now the problem with that is you need to know electional astrology before you can do Picatrix.

这就像把一本高级神经科学教材交给一个人，却让他在还没上过医学院的情况下，拿出钻头开始做额叶切除术。

It's a bit like handing someone an advanced neuroscience text and saying, Get your drill out and start doing your lobotomy when you haven't been to medical school yet.

在你能够使用《皮卡特里克斯》之前，必须先掌握传统占星术的所有基础知识。

And you have to learn all the basics of traditional astrology before you're going be ready to work with Picatrix.

是的，这本书似乎默认你已经懂占星术，甚至不仅懂命盘占星，还懂择时占星，某种程度上还懂卜卦占星。

Yeah, it seems like it takes for granted that you already know astrology and even that you know a lot of the basis of not just natal astrology but also electional and even horary to some extent.

那你们的译本是哪一年出版的？

So what year did you guys publish your translation

哦，让我找一下。

Oh, of let just pull out.

我眼前就有一本。

I've got one in front of me here.

得看一下。

Have to take a look.

得说确切的年份。

Have to the exact year.

当然。

Sure.

2010年。

2010.

2010年。

2010.

好的。

Okay.

这大约是《Ouroboros》译本第一卷出版十年后。

That's about ten years after the first volume of the Ouroboros translation came out.

所以在那第一版非常粗糙的阿拉伯文译本之后，隔了十年，你们才推出更完整、更专业的译本，由一位占星师来翻译这部文本。

So that's a ten year gap between that first kind of very rough translation of Arabic and then you guys came in with a more full like actual decent treatment by an astrologer of translating this text.

那都有哪些不同版本呢？

And what are the different versions?

因为你们发布过几个不同版本的翻译，对吧？

Because you guys have released a few different versions of your translation, right?

是的，我本来就想聊聊这一点。

Yeah, I was gonna talk about that a little bit.

是这样的。

Here's the thing.

当我谈到收藏家版本和学术版本时，我乐于拥有一份复印件。

One of the things about when I was talking about the book collector version and academic version, I'm happy to have a photocopy of something.

我只需要这些信息。

I just need the information.

我的意思是，拥有一本昂贵精美的版本当然很好，但说实话，我只要能得到信息就满足了。

I mean, it'd be nice to have an expensive well around version, but frankly, I'm happy to have the information.

所以这正是我关注的重点。

So that was kind of my focus on it.

我做的一件事是，我们出版的所有《皮卡特里克斯》版本都是按需印刷的。

And one of the things that I've done is all the Picatrix versions we publish are all printed on demand.

所以这让我们能够实际操作，而不会因此破产。

So what that does is allow us to actually make We don't have to go bankrupt doing it.

我的意思是，传统上作为学术出版商——不，是神秘学出版商——的做法是，你要花一万美元或两万美元用于这些昂贵的装订，然后它们就一直放在那里，卖完为止，之后价格才会突然上涨。

I mean, the traditional way of being an academic Not an academic, an esoteric publisher would be that you'd spend $10,000 or $20,000 paying for these really expensive bindings and they would sit there and they'd sell until they sold out and then all of a sudden the price would go up.

这从来不是一个能让人真正赚到钱的行业。

It was never a business that anyone really could make much of a living at.

是的。

Yeah.

我采访过那位负责出版雷古勒斯版利利著作的人，他们为了凑齐出版资金，印了成千上万册，然后把它们堆在仓库里，等着某天能卖完——最终确实卖完了，但那是十五年或二十年后的事。

I interviewed the guy who did the Regulus edition of Lilly and their story about getting together all the money for that and then printing up however many thousands of copies and then just having them sit in a warehouse and hoping they would sell out at some point, which they eventually did after like fifteen or twenty years.

在20世纪80年代，那种方式做占星出版听起来真是艰难。

That sounds like a really rough way to do astrological publishing back in the day in the 1980s.

但幸运的是，到了2000年代后期你进入这个领域时，技术已经发生了变化。

But luckily, technology had changed by this point in the late 2000s when you came onto the scene with some of this.

事实上，我们原本希望有人像韦泽或卢埃林这样的出版社来出版这些书。

Well, here's the thing, we were hoping that it would be published by Weiser or Llewellyn or someone like that.

他们根本不会碰它。

They wouldn't touch it.

我认为《皮卡特里克斯》的声誉还算有些知名度，但并不算流行。

I think that the reputation of Picatrix, I think that was somewhat well known but it wasn't as popular.

占星魔法一直被视为边缘领域。

Astrological magic was sort of outside the pale.

意思是，占星师们根本不想沾这个。

Mean, astrologers just didn't want to deal with it.

是的，真想听听当时向韦泽或卢埃林推销这个项目的会议是怎么进行的。

Yeah, would have liked to hear that pitch meeting to like Wiser to L'Hawan of how that went.

我们连面都没见到。

We didn't even get to meet with them.

有趣的是，约翰·格里尔以前曾和那些出版社合作过。

What's interesting is that John Greer, he'd published with those guys before.

他是个知名作者，但他们却不愿沾边。

He was a well known author, they didn't want to have anything to do with it.

我并没有完全了解他们具体遇到什么问题，但我猜他们可能觉得没人会买，或者这本书含有黑魔法之类的东西，所以不愿意出版。

And I didn't quite get the details as far as what their problems were, but I think maybe they thought, Well, no one will buy it or it's got black magic in it or things like that, but they didn't want to publish it.

我们不得不自己出版它。

We of necessity had to publish it ourselves.

我的意思是，从历史上看，这也很有意思。

I mean, even historically, was interesting.

我读到过一件事，那就是《皮卡特里克斯》本身在文艺复兴时期甚至从未被印刷出版过，而是始终以阿拉伯文和拉丁文的手抄本形式在人们之间流传。

One of the things that I read was that the Picatrix itself never was put into a printed edition even back during the Renaissance, but instead it was always the Arabic and the Latin versions were always passed around as manuscripts of handwritten hand copied manuscripts.

所以，当时根本没有任何出版商有足够的勇气将它付印。

So there wasn't even any publisher at any point who was almost brave enough to put it into a printed edition back then.

如今情况依然如此，这几乎也不足为奇。

It's almost not surprising that that's still the case today.

是的。

Yeah.

原因有所不同。

For sort of different reasons.

这很有趣。

It's interesting.

我们可以聊聊自然魔法与现代人如何看待这个问题。

We can maybe talk about that with natural magic versus how people think nowadays.

但没错，当时这太敏感了。

But yeah, it was just too hot.

当然，我在这二十年从事这项工作期间注意到，人们对占星术的接受度逐渐提高，接着是对占星魔法的接受度也不断提高。

Certainly, what I've noticed in the twenty years that I've been doing this is that the atmosphere has just become more and more and more accepting first of astrology and then of astrological magic.

所以对我来说，这无疑是一个巨大的进步。

So I mean, certainly for me that's been a great improvement.

但当我刚开始时，我做占星魔法，鲍勃·佐勒、罗布·汉德，他们都不愿碰这个。

But when I started out, I mean, I was doing astrological magic and Bob Zoller, Rob Hand, none of them wanted to touch it.

我的意思是，他们根本不愿意制作护身符。

I mean, they didn't want to actually do make talismans.

在那些实践传统占星术和中世纪、文艺复兴风格的人中，我几乎是唯一愿意实际制作护身符的人。

And I was pretty much alone of the people that were practicing traditional astrology and the Medieval and Renaissance style that were willing to actually do talismans.

现在情况真的变了，特别是像奥斯汀·科波克这样的人，UAC会议上甚至有了专门的板块。

Now that's really changed particularly again, people like Austin Coppock, there's a whole track at UAC.

我的意思是，他在推广、解释并使这成为占星师们的一项正经研究方面做出了惊人的贡献。

I mean, he's done an amazing job of popularizing and then explaining and really making this a legitimate study for astrologers.

当然。

Sure.

但毫无疑问，当时情况并非如此。

But definitely that was not the case.

很长一段时间里，你是唯一一个我记得的人。我最早在2003或2004年接触到你的塔罗牌作品，那时我刚在开普勒学院学习，读到了霍尔登的著作，他提到博纳蒂制作塔罗牌。

And for a long time, you were the only person I remember first coming across your work with talismans in like 2003 or 2004 after I had learned about the concept of talismans when I was studying at Kepler and I was reading one of Holden's works and he was talking about Bonatti making talismans.

于是我出去寻找，找到了你最近刚制作的一个水星塔罗牌。

I went out and searched and I found some Mercury talisman that you had just made recently.

所以你在别人之前很久就在做这些事了。

So you were doing this stuff long before anybody else.

那么在2000年代初，你当时主要参考了哪些资料？

And what sources were you drawing on at that point circa the early 2000s?

嗯，有《神秘哲学三书》

Well, had Three Books

《神秘哲学》里面包含了很多内容。

of Occult Philosophy has a lot of stuff in it.

第二卷

Book two

里面有很多图像，这正是你所做工作的核心部分，特别是因为人们最感兴趣的是行星护身符。

has all these images in it and that's got some of the guts of what you're doing in terms of the Particularly because people are most interested in planetary talismans.

你可以制作行星护身符，可以念月亮的真言，可以使用恒星、分度宫或房屋护身符，但人们最习惯的还是行星护身符。

You can do planetary talismans, you can do mantras of the Moon, you can do fixed stars, you can do decans, you can house talismans, but people really are most comfortable with planetary talismans.

所以我们从这个开始。

And so that's what we started with.

有趣的是，我现在回头看，我所做的其实是搭建了整个架构，但这一点并不总是显而易见的。

And it's interesting, I'll look out now and what I sort of have done is the architecture and it's not always obvious.

例如，我会要求学生在课程作业中注明所使用的原始文献、书名和页码，你必须追溯到原始出处。

For example, the idea of saying, Okay, here is the source that I'm using and the title and page which I require my students to put for answers in the course, you have to sort to source.

这是我在择时中实际使用的因素，以及实际的星盘。

And then here's the factors I actually used in the election and here's the actual chart.

现在，任何销售护身符或进行占星魔法的人，几乎都必须这么做。

That's kind of almost to sort of de rigueur now for anyone selling talismans or doing astrological magic.

但最早开始使用这种方法的人，又是他，这看起来非常合理，对吧？

But that was the first person again to start using that, which seems very logical, right?

但这种严谨性，在我出现之前是缺失的。

But that rigor is something that was lacking before I came along.

我不是说是我发明的，而是让它显现出来了。

I'm not saying invented, more manifested it.

这看起来像是你理应去做的合乎逻辑的事。

It seems like the logical thing that you want to do.

但如果你对护身符不采取严肃的态度，就不会投入这种程度的关注。

But if you're not going to take a serious approach to talismans, you're not going to put that level of interest into it.

当然。

Sure.

关于翻译，你们的人在2010年出版了版本。

So in terms of translation, guys published yours in 2010.

然后最近，有几位学者出版了另一个更学术的拉丁文《皮克特里克斯》译本，我想是去年——2019年出版的，对吧？

Then more recently, there was a couple of academics who published another more academic translation of the Latin version of the Picatrix that came out just last year I think in 2019, right?

对。

Right.

那是《阿特雷尔·恩波里卡》。

That's the Atrelle Emporica.

同样，我不知道他们的名字，但这是正确的发音。

Again, I don't know their names but that's how to pronounce them.

他们在加拿大的一所大学。

They're in Canada at a university in Canada.

他们使用的是相同的源文本，即平格里的批判性版本，并出版了非常优秀的《皮克特里克斯》译本。

So they use the same source, the Pingree's critical edition and then turned out a very good translation of Picatrix.

再说一遍，拥有学术视角非常有用。

Think again, it's very useful to have the academic view of it.

他们的版本专门面向学生和历史学者，是为学术界准备的。

And theirs is specifically for, as I said, students history, it's for academics.

所以他们的重点并不在实践者身上。

So their focus is not so much on the practitioners.

我认为，如果你在学术界，你真的不能公开说：是的，这是为实践者写的。

I don't think they If you're in academia, I don't think you really can come out and say, Yes, this is for practitioners.

这是那本书的封面。

So here's the cover of that one.

它的标题是《中世纪占星魔法论》。

So it's titled, A Medieval Treatise on Astrological Magic.

这是封面吗？

And then is this the cover?

这是你的第一版吗？

Is this the first edition of yours?

是的。

Yeah.

现在已经不用那个了。

Don't use that one anymore.

好的。

Okay.

现在主要的是黑色的这本，对吧？

The main one now is the black right.

一本？

One?

所以那是Libra Atrados版本。

So that's the Libra Atrados edition.

是的。

Yeah.

我想说的是，按需印刷的一个很酷的地方在于，你可以直接把版本放在服务器上。

I was gonna say with the print on demand, one things I thought was really cool about print on demand is that you can just leave the edition sitting on a server.

所以如果你想拥有多个版本，也是可以的。

So if you want to have multiple versions of it, you can.

所以我的做法是浏览一遍，然后说，哦，有个红色版本的Liborubius应该会很有趣。

So what I did was to go through and just say, Oh, it'd be fun to have a Liborubius, a red version of it.

然后它里面有些类似丹的阴森风格图案，有很多骷髅头之类的东西。

And then it has sort of dan's macabre kind of motifs in it, lots of skulls and things like that.

我只是觉得这会很有趣。

I just thought it would be fun.

而且我其实还有一个彩色版本，非常漂亮。

And then I actually have a color version of it which is really beautiful.

它是8.5乘11英寸的尺寸，而且是全彩的。

It's 8.5 by 11 and it's got its full color.

所以里面有各种精美的插图、字体以及类似的设计元素。

So it has all sorts of beautiful illustrations and fonts and things like that in it.

事实上，在爱荷华城这边，我曾经有一段时间请了一位书籍装订师，我在做这些皮面精装本。

And in fact, for a while here in Iowa City, I had a bookbinder and I was doing these leather bound.

它们实际上也是按需印刷的。

They actually were print on demand.

所以我们当时会做这些彩色复印，然后装订师会用极其精美的装帧方式将它们装订起来，那叫皇帝对开本，尺寸非常大。

So we would do these color photocopies and then the bookbinder would bind them with these incredibly ornate It was what's called an emperor folio, which was huge.

差不多有两英尺高，巨大无比。

It was like two foot, it was gigantic.

但它们真的非常漂亮。

But they were really gorgeous.

我们做了这些，但我能从中盈利，因为有人下单后，我就能当场为他们制作。

We did them, but I was able to make a profit on it because someone would order it and then I would go ahead and make it for them on the spot.

所以这有点像传统的按需印刷。

So it sort of like a traditional print on demand.

好的。

Okay.

我一直以来从事的职业是占星师，过去二十二年来，这是我收入的来源。

The thing I've been able to do is I've been a professional astrologer and this is where I derive my income from for the past twenty two years.

所以从商业角度来看，你需要有一项能持续盈利的业务。

And so from a business standpoint, you need to have something that works as a business.

而传统的做法，比如我所说的，做这些昂贵的装订然后存放在仓库里，这是一项亏本的生意。

And standard way of doing it, like the I said, doing these really expensive bindings and then putting them in the warehouse, that's a money losing proposition.

事实上，很久以前我建议本·戴克斯在翻译邦纳蒂的《天文学之书》时，可以采用按需印刷，因为他已经可以获取这些资源了。

In fact, one of the things I suggested to Ben Dykes a long time ago with his translation of Bonatti's Libra Astronomia was he said, Hey, go ahead and do print on demand because they're available.

我的意思是，按需印刷永远不会绝版。

I mean, on demand will never go out of print.

你不会遇到这种问题：你印了500本这些精彩文本，突然之间就买不到了。

You don't have that problem of these wonderful texts that you have 500 copies of it and all of a sudden it's no longer available.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为他最终采纳了你的建议，因为他的前两部译作并不是按需印刷，他不得不投资并囤积邦纳蒂、萨尔和马沙阿拉这些厚重的精装书库存。

I think he eventually followed your advice because his first two translations were not print on demand and he had to invest and have stock for these big thick hardback books of Banadi and then Sahl and Masha'allah.

但我想，到他第三本书时，大约在2010年2月你发布译作前后，他已经转为按需印刷了。

But I think by the time of his third book, he switched to print on demand around 02/2010 around the time that you released your translation.

所以就有了这些译本。

So there's those translations.

最后，还有一部译作预计在不久的将来出版。

And then finally, there's one more translation that's coming out hopefully in the near future.

这是李安娜·赛夫正在从阿拉伯语原文翻译的一部新作。

And this is an upcoming translation from the original Arabic text that Liana Saif is putting together.

有趣的是，她在翻译过程中通过自己的推特账号MaslamaQ实时发布了翻译进展。

And she actually interestingly live tweeted her progress as she was translating the text on Twitter through her Twitter handle which is MaslamaQ.

这很值得跟进，我认为她预计在未来一两年内会发布这部译作。

So that was interesting to follow and I think she's getting ready to publish that at some point in the next year or two I think.

是的，我也听说了。

Yeah, and that's what I heard as well.

能看到阿拉伯语原文一定会非常有趣。

It'll be really interesting to see the Arabic.

这将为我们提供另一个视角。

It'll essentially give us another perspective.

我们可以看到阿拉伯语版本，以及其中的差异和各种细节。

We'll be able to see the Arabic version of it and the differences and everything.

再次强调，这将是一个学术性的翻译。

Again, it will be an academic translation.

因此，重点将放在其历史和社会学基础上，而不是用于制作护身符。

So the focus is going to be on the historical and sociological basis of it rather than using it to make talismans.

看看占星术部分会很有趣。

It'll be interesting to see the astrology.

我的意思是，这对学者来说是个难题，因为他们并不专精于此。

I mean, it's just a problem for academics because they don't specialize in it.

我的意思是，像我特别喜欢的基斯金·克拉克翻译的菲奇诺的《论生命三书》这样的经典文本，他们就把‘合相’和‘燃烧之路’搞混了。

I mean, the Kaskin Clark translation which I love of Ficino's Three Books on Life which is a wonderful text, they got confused between being combust and the via combusta.

我的意思是，类似这样的问题。

I mean, things like that.

这本来就不是他们的强项，而他们又不会去咨询传统占星师来确保准确，因为那对他们来说超出了学术范畴。

It's just not their forte and yet they're not going to be consulting a traditional astrologer to get it right because that's just kind of beyond the pale for them.

希望我们能看看她会得出什么样的成果。

Hopefully, we'll see what she comes up with.

我相信她。

I have faith in her.

她来自瓦尔堡研究所，过去一二十年里，像罗布·汉德、多里安·格林鲍姆这样的一些占星家已经更多地进入了学术界。

She's from the Warburg Institute and there's been more penetration of astrologers into academia in the past decade or two like Rob Hand or Dorian Greenbaum or other people like that.

所以我认为，他们现在开始更多地交流了。

So I think hopefully they're starting to talk more.

我知道莉安娜曾与两位最近刚获得学位的传统占星师合作或有过互动，我几个月前采访过他们，他们写了《论天矛》，但我一时想不起他们的名字。

I know Liana has worked with or had some interactions with two traditional astrologers that recently went and got their degrees who I interviewed just a few months ago who wrote On the Heavenly Spears and I'm spacing out their name.

你知道我说的那对葡萄牙夫妇叫什么名字吗？

Do you know the name of the couple from Portugal I'm talking about?

哦，我知道你说的是谁，但同样，我的记忆力也有问题。

Oh, I know who you're talking about, but again, I'm the same problem with memory.

我觉得。

I think that

海伦娜·阿瓦拉尔和路易斯·里贝罗，就是这两个人。

Helena Avalar and Luis Ribeiro, those are the two.

是的。

Yeah.

不幸的是，目前官方仍然不允许这样做。

Unfortunately, it's still officially you're not allowed to do it.

这属于一种情况，即学术界仍被无神论唯物主义的范式所掌控。

It's one of those things is that academia is still in the grip of the atheistic materialism paradigm.

尽管有一些人表面上在做相关研究，但你根本不可能公开说：‘这些东西有效，这就是使用方法。’

And as much as there's some people that are on the side doing things officially, you're just not going to be able to come out and say, Yeah, this stuff works and here's how to use it.

如果真这么说了，你可能会丢掉教职。

Mean, would put an academic You'd probably lose your job over that.

而且这

And it's

很有趣的是，当她出版这本书时，事情终于会有所突破，因为这似乎是缺失的最后一块拼图，此后与《皮卡特里克斯》相关的所有内容都将有现代译本。

amazing will be interesting when she publishes that just because things will finally be That seems like the last piece that's missing and then everything related to the Picatrix will be in modern translation finally.

不过，我们不如转到谈谈这部文本的实际内容吧，你肯定知道。

Why don't we transition though into talking about the actual contents of the text a little bit you're Definitely.

准备好

Up for

是的，我们开始吧。

Yeah, let's do it.

好的。

All right.

所以文本的内容包含一些占星魔法，而占星魔法的很大一部分是关于制作护身符的具体择时规则。

So contents of the text, it's got some astrological magic and by astrological magic, a large part of that is specific electional rules for creating talismans.

但文本中也包含一些魔法药剂和咒语，还收录了大量中世纪同期流行的赫尔墨斯主义、新柏拉图主义以及准亚里士多德主义哲学流派的段落。

But the text also has some magical potions and spells and it also has a lot of different passages from Hermetic and Neoplatonic and sort of quasi Aristotelian streams of philosophy that were all going on in the Medieval period around this time.

这本质上是十世纪对中世纪占星术与魔法的一种综合。

It's very much a synthesis in the tenth century of essentially like a Medieval astrology and magic.

当然。

Oh, definitely.

所谓的‘药剂’，比如白狗的血之类的，我就不去碰了。

The confectiones as they're called are sort of things like the blood of a white dog that sort of I don't bother with.

我从不使用动物器官。

I don't do anything with animal parts.

关于这一点，翻译中存在争议。

It's in the translation, debated that.

无论我们是否希望任何人去使用这些东西，我们都会完成完整的翻译。

We're going do a complete translation regardless of the fact that we don't want anybody to ever do that stuff.

希望人们不会拿着我们的书去使用那些动物器官的部分。

Hopefully people are not running around using our book and using the animal parts stuff hopefully.

我是佛教徒，对此不会感到开心，但我们觉得不应该对此进行审查。

I'm a Buddhist so I wouldn't be too happy about it, but we didn't feel like we should censor it.

这就像那种情况，你知道的？

It was just one of those things of like, You know what?

我不赞成这种做法。

I don't approve of it.

我自己永远不会去做。

I'll never do it myself.

我甚至会在翻译中说，我认为你不应该这么做，但我并不觉得应该为他人审查掉这些内容。

I'll even say in the translation, I don't think you should do it, but I don't feel like censoring it for people.

所以这确实是我们讨论过的一个问题。

So that was something that we did debate with.

当然。

Sure.

而且确实存在明显的部分，尤其是开头部分，它主要讲述的是魔法择日或占星魔法，似乎主要聚焦于选择一个择日星盘，试图将行星的力量注入护身符或图像等物体中，并用于不同目的。

And there definitely are distinct parts because especially at the beginning, it starts off doing magical elections or astrological magic which it seems largely focused on picking an electional chart and attempting to capture the power of the planets in an object like a talisman or an image and using that for different purposes.

这非常像占星术，但几乎是一种占星术的魔法应用。

It's very much like it's astrology, but it's almost a magical application of astrology.

但随后在文本的后期，不同章节中确实发生了转变，开始更多地聚焦于类似古典巫术类型的咒语、混合物，或近乎炼金术的配方。

But then definitely later in the text at different points, it does take a turn and starts focusing on more like almost classical witchy type occult spells and mixtures or almost like alchemical recipes in different chapters.

是的，那就是配制部分。

Yeah, that's the confectione part

也是。

too.

好的。

Okay.

有趣的是，其中的因果关系始终不明确。

So what's interesting about it is the causality is never quite clear.

有很多漫无目的的探讨。

There's a lot of wandering around.

你好像在笔记里提到过这种漫无目的的探讨，关于这些东西究竟是如何运作的。

Think you were talking about that in your notes about wandering around about how this stuff actually works.

我认为这反映了当时占星家们对于占星术如何运作存在各种不同观点。

And I think that reflects the various differences of opinion among astrologers at the time as how does astrology work.

你有一种近乎物理的模型，托勒密谈论的是热量和体液。

You have an almost a physical model, Ptolemy is talking about heat and the humors.

你有阿尔·金迪提出的灵性射线，不是电磁波，而是明确的灵性力量，但仍然是一种更机械化的理解方式。

You've got Al Kindi who's got these spiritual rays, not electromagnetic, they're definitely spiritual, but still a more mechanical sort of view of it.

你还有这种观点，即自然魔法。

You also have this idea that if you Natural magic.

自然魔法很美妙，因为在那个时代，你不必像费奇诺那样担心自然魔法会涉及召唤恶魔之类的问题。

Natural magic is beautiful because at the time you wouldn't have to worry about Ficino like natural magic because you didn't have to worry about, Oh, I'm calling on demons or something.

它只是自然地发挥作用。

It just works naturally.

如果我在特定的时间制作它，把一只蝎子放上去，当天蝎座升起或类似情况时，它就会自然地影响蝎子。

If I make it at a particular time, I put a Scorpion on it and when Scorpio is rising or whatever, then that will affect Scorpions naturally.

换句话说，存在着一种隐秘的美德，即事物的隐藏力量，这是一种机械论的观点。

There's occult virtue, in other words, hidden powers of things and it's mechanistic.

但我越来越倾向于的最后一种方法，本质上几乎像一种星象宗教。

But the final method which is I'm increasingly drawn to is essentially almost like astro religion.

我的意思是，行星和天体，每一个天体本质上都是一个灵体或天使，你可以召唤它们，魔法力量就来源于此。

I mean, the planets and the celestial, every celestial body is essentially a spirit or an angel and you can invoke that and that's where the magical power comes from.

所以所有这些不同的因果关系都混杂在一起，始终不太清楚Picatrix究竟想强调哪一种才是正确的因果关系。

So all these different causalities are kind of mingled together and they're never really quite clear as to whether or not Picatrix doesn't really put its finger and say, Well, this is the one right one.

它只是提到了所有可能的因果类型。

It kind of mentions all the different possible types of causality.

我认为我最终所做的事情，真正引起我共鸣的，正是我所说的那种天文宗教。

And I think that what I've ended up doing is what's resonated with me has been more of that I said astro religion.

我几乎不会把自己定义为占星术士，而更像是一位天界祭司。

And I almost would characterize myself not as an astrological magician but a celestial priest.

其中的神显层面和更具虔敬色彩的部分，吸引了我的注意力。

And the theurgic side of it and the more devotional side of it is what has drawn my attention.

我不会说这是对的，我只是觉得，这是我个人真正被吸引的领域。

I wouldn't say it's right, I just think that that's the area that I've personally found I've been drawn to.

仍然有很多人直接进行魔法实践，比如：‘我想发财，所以我要做一个招财符咒。’

And plenty of people are still doing straight up magic saying, Okay, I want wealth so I'm going to do a wealth talisman.

这同样也是完全正当的。

And that's perfectly legitimate as well.

所以，如果你想要深入了解这些内容，我们完全可以讨论这些不同的方面。

So that's an area if you want to delve into any of that, we can definitely talk about those various things.

好，我们来谈一谈吧。

Yeah, let's do that.

我们先简单谈一下它的一个重要作用，即用于魔法目的的择时占星。

Let's touch a little bit first on one of the big things that it does is electional astrology for magical purposes.

它引入了不同的择时原则，或者我们可以聚焦于并介绍一些《Picatrix》中使用的原则。

And it introduces different electional principles that are focused on or I thought we could focus on or introduce some of those principles that are used in the Picatrix.

不过，我们可能想作为一个宏观话题讨论的是，如果人们不熟悉的话，关于护身符、符咒和图像的概念——它们是如何运作的，或者更准确地说，只是简单介绍一下这个一般性概念。

One of them though that we might want to talk about as a meta topic is just the idea if people aren't familiar with it of the idea of talismans, amulets, and images and how that works or not how it works, but just what that general concept is if we could introduce it really quickly.

实际上，这很有趣，因为人们通常认为护身符就是让我随便拿一个出来。

Really, it's interesting because people tend to think of a talisman as Let me just pull one out.

我这里放着几个。

I've got some sitting up here.

它们被好好地密封在塑料袋里，所以我实际上没有直接触碰它们。

Nicely ziplocked, so I'm not actually touching it.

好的。

Okay.

这就是人们所认为的护身符。

This is what people think a talisman is.

这是一个吊坠，对吧？

It's a pendant, right?

或者是一个金属制品，是的，你佩戴的金属物品

Or a metal object that Yeah, has metal you wear

用绳子挂着，戴在脖子上。

on a cord, you wear it around your neck.

好的，这就是一个护身符。

Okay, that's a talisman.

或者是一个戒指，这也是另一种形式。

Or a ring, that's another thing.

通常，当人们想到护身符时，会联系到我，他们想的是吊坠或戒指。

Generally, when people are contacting me when they're thinking of talismans, they're thinking a pendant or a ring.

任何东西都可以成为护身符。

Anything can be a talisman.

你可能会想到，我做过镜子，你可以在背景里看到，这里有很多不同的镜子。

You think of I've done mirrors, you can see in the background here, can see all these different mirrors.

那些都是作为护身符制作的。

Those have all been made as talismans.

想想亚瑟王之剑，那就是一件护身符。

Think of a sword, Excalibur, that's a talisman.

文艺复兴时期，他们制作花园，也建造房屋。

In the Renaissance, they did gardens, they did houses.

事实上，《Picatrix》一书中提到了一座名为Dasentine的完整城市，它是按照占星魔法原理建造的。

And in fact, Picatrix talks about a whole city called a Dasentine that was built with astrological magical principles.

所以真的任何东西都可以成为护身符。

So really anything can be a talisman.

所以它就像是任何在特定时刻诞生的物品，你可以通过那个时刻的选择占星图来尝试捕捉宇宙在那个时刻的星象精髓。

So it's like anything that is born at a specific moment in time where you can try to capture the astrological essence of the cosmos at that moment in time through the electional chart for that moment.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，另一种理解方式是你在邀请灵体进入护身符。

I mean, another way to think about it is that you're inviting the spirit into the talisman.

《皮克特里克斯》也谈到了这一点，即精神与身体的结合。

And Picatrix talks about this, you've got the union of spirit and body.

护身符是身体，而星象精神则像是这个护身符的灵魂。

That the talisman is the body and then the astrological spirit then is like the soul of that talisman.

这是另一种看待它的方式。

That's another way of looking at it.

阿格里帕也谈到了这一点，这就像一种光线现象。

Agrippa talks about this, it's like a ray thing.

在特定时刻，来自行星或其他天体的光线照射到它上面，然后将其冻结。

The rays hit this at a particular moment from the planets or whatever and then they freeze it.

因此，有多种不同的观点，我可以这么说。

So there's a variety of different I would say they're perspectives.

这有点像光。

It's a bit like light.

光既可以被看作是一种波，也可以被看作是一种粒子。

Light can be seen either as a wave or as a particle.

如果你把它当作粒子来处理，它就会表现出粒子的特性。

If you treat it as a particle, it acts as a particle.

如果你把它当作波来处理，它就会表现出波的特性。

If you treat it as a wave, it acts as a wave.

但底层的现实将超越这些描述方式。

But the underlying reality is gonna transcend those characterizations.

但作为一种建模方式、一种交互方式，我们需要一个模型。

But as a way of modeling, as a way of interfacing, we need to have a model.

那么，对你来说，什么是共鸣的模型？

So essentially, what's the resonant model for you?

你是否认同自然魔法的观点，即如果我在恰当的时刻制作，行星的光束就会照射其上，这就是它的运作方式？

Do you like the idea of the natural magic that if I make at the right time that the beams are hitting it or that's how it works.

或者，就像我所说的，我在进行虔诚的修行。

Or again, like I'm saying, I'm doing devotional practice.

我召唤那些与我有着长期关系的灵体，通过制作护身符来重新巩固我与它们的关系。

I'm calling on these spirits that I have this long term relationship with and I'm sort of renewing my relationship with them I make a talisman.

对我来说，护身符就像一部手机。

To me, a talisman is like a cell phone.

它是与那个灵体联系的一种方式。

It's a means of contacting that spirit.

力量并不来自护身符本身，也不是像电池那样，它只是与木星或恒星沟通的一种方式，对吧？

The power is not from the talisman itself or not like a battery, it's just a way of communicating with Jupiter or a fixed star, right?

或者你可以把它理解为给它充电。

Or you can think of it as charging it.

人们常说：‘我在给护身符充电。’

People talk about, Oh, I'm charging the talisman.

这些都是一些有效的概念化方式。

So these are all valid ways of conceptualizing it.

但没有一种能完全捕捉到真实本质，而真实本质是包含并超越所有这些不同概念的。

None of them are capturing the true reality which is going to include and transcend all those different conceptualizations.

但从实际角度来看，确实存在一种专注于在预先选定的特定时刻创造某物，他们关注的是为特定日期、时间和地点设定的特定星象图，那时行星具有某种特定的排列配置？

So from a practical standpoint though, there is definitely like a focus on creating something at a specific moment in time that's been chosen ahead of time and that they're focused on a specific astrological chart set for a specific date and time and place that has a certain configuration of the planets at that time?

当然。

Definitely.

我的意思是，时间、日期和地点是绝对关键，这正是我们在这里所做的。

I mean, time, date and place is the absolute key and that's what we're doing here.

本质上，我们是在进行一种仪式魔法，对吧？

Essentially, we're doing a type of ceremonial magic, right?

但它受到限制，因为你只能在特定时间进行仪式，针对的是星象灵体。

But it's constrained by you're doing the ceremony at a specific time only for astrological spirits.

这基本上就是星象魔法，是一种仪式魔法，但是一种非常聚焦的仪式形式。

That's essentially what astrological magic is, is a type of ceremonial magic but a very focused type of ceremonial.

但正如你所说，它必须是特定的时间。

But just as you said though, it has to be a specific time.

你得查看那张星盘。

You got to look at that chart.

至于你使用哪些因素，那就因人而异了，对吧？

Now what factors you use, that's incredibly variant, right?

但毫无疑问，你必须选择一个特定的时间、日期和地点来进行仪式。

But definitely, you're gonna have to have a specific time, date and place to do it.

而我所做的，是完整的星盘择时。

And again, what I do are full chart elections.

我并不是只看下弦月。

I'm not just doing waning Moon.

我的意思是，下弦月占了一年的一半，但一年中有六个月都适合进行。

I mean, waning Moon is half the year, but six months out of the year would be good for it.

实际上，择时的效力来自于它的精确性。

Mean, the power of the election comes from the specificity of it.

通常情况下，我们能用的时间范围是半小时到四十五分钟，甚至一小时。

You're really gonna wanna I mean, typically, the time range that we have available will be half an hour to forty five minutes to an hour.

很少能有超过一小时的时间。

Rarely, we're to have more than an hour.

事实上，不可能找到超过这个时间段的完美时机。

Fact is it's not going to line up for more than that time period.

你提到，大多数的择时至少倾向于关注行星择时。

You mentioned that most of the elections are at least there's a tendency to focus on planetary elections.

所以，创建一个行星处于良好位置的择时，例如，行星位于其本命宫。

So creating an election for a time when a planet is well situated by, for example, being in its own domicile.

比如说，一个水星符咒会选择在水星位于处女座的时候进行，因为处女座是水星的本命宫和擢升宫。

So let's say a Mercury talisman would be elected for a time when Mercury is in Virgo, which is the sign of its domicile and exaltation.

然后，你还希望它在星盘中处于显著位置，比如上升星座或命宫，使其成为第一宫的主星。

And then you would also want to put it in a prominent place in the chart like in the rising sign or in the Ascendant so that it becomes the ruler of the first house.

你还会关注其他哪些因素呢？

What other things would you look for?

再说一点，当我们谈论行星时——这是大家普遍关注的——现在很有意思，因为如今我们有了一个占星魔法社群，所以出现了各种各样的人。

Again, here's the thing is that if we're talking about a planet and then this is by everyone, it's interesting, there's incredible debate right now because we now have an astrological magic community.

而且，我们正接触到形形色色的不同观点。

And so we're getting all sorts of different people.

我要强调的是，没有一种唯一正确的方法来做这件事。

And again, what I want to emphasize is this is that there is not one correct way to do this.

任何声称自己正确而别人全错的人，其实根本不懂他们在说什么。

And anyone who says that they're right and everyone else is wrong doesn't know what they're talking about.

就像我所说的，你可以找到对你来说有共鸣的方法，对吧？

You can, like I said, what you can do is to find what resonates for you, right?

我认为存在很多正确的方法，同时也存在无穷多错误的方法，对吧？

What I think there are is a lot of sort of right methods and then there's the infinity of wrong methods, right?

但并没有唯一正确的方式来做这些事情。

But no one correct way of doing this stuff.

所以我的行星方法是：我想找到一个该行星非常强大的时间点。

So my methodology for a planet is to say what I want to do is find a time when that planet is really strong.

正如你所说，这可以是星座或擢升，或者多个次要尊贵条件的组合，因为当你在符文中获得+6、+8这样的加成时，就像是中了大奖。

So just as you said, it would be sign or exaltation or multiple lesser dignities because you have a jackpot where you've got plus six or plus eight or something like that in a talisman.

这些情况都挺不错的。

Those are kind of nice.

所以行星的本质尊贵包括 domicile、exaltation、triplicity、bound 和 face？

So essential dignities of domicile, exaltation, triplicity, bound and face?

是的，我会说命宫、限度、三方、尊位和星座，因为我使用的是利利式的术语，这是我接受训练时所学的。

Yeah, I would say face, term, triplicity, exaltation and sign because I use a Lilly style terminology, just what I was trained in.

我们就说水星在处女座，那会非常好。

Let's just say Mercury in Virgo, that'd be great.

水星在双子座，那也会非常好。

Mercury in Gemini, that'd be great too.

水星上升。

Mercury rising.

我现在关注的是上升点和中天，不是把它们当作宫主，而是从角力角度考虑。

Now what I'm looking at is the Ascendant and the Midheaven not so much as their house but because those are from an angularity standpoint.

所以从角力角度来看，最强大的点是上升点，其次是中天，虽然稍弱一点，但几乎与之相当。

So you think of the most powerful points from an angularity standpoint are going be rising as the most powerful and Midheaven is going to be a little bit less but almost equivalent to it.

所以不是作为宫主，而是因为在这些点上，它们会最强烈地展现其力量。

So not as a house ruler but because at that point they're going to be manifesting their power most strongly.

然后是行星时。

Then planetary hour.

行星时非常重要。

Planetary hour is really important.

如果你看一下，《皮卡特里克斯》第一卷第四章里有一大堆典型的行星择时范例。

And if you look at Again, there's a section in Picatrix's book one chapter four has a whole bunch of paradigmatic planetary elections.

它们和你所说的非常相似，比如水星在处女座、水星上升，再加上行星时。

And they're very much just like you said, Mercury in Virgo, Mercury rising and then the planetary hour.

这一直被强调为影响力量的关键因素。

That's always emphasized as being a really key factor in terms of the power.

日期和时辰。

The day and hour.

比如，如果你要制作一个水星符咒，你会希望在水星日，也就是农历新年星期三进行，对吧？

So for example, if you're doing a Mercury talisman, you would want to do it on Mercury's day which is Lunar New Year Wednesday, right?

不一定。

Not necessarily.

再说一遍，如果你回看《皮卡特里克斯》，他们的重点是行星时，对吧？

Again, if you look back at Picatrix, their focus is on planetary hour, right?

好的。

Okay.

所以问题是，如果你要进行择时，就必须选择有限的几个因素。

So here's the thing, if you're gonna do an election, you're gonna have to pick a certain limited number of factors.

这正是我所说的，我在某个群组里正和我称之为‘强迫症学派’的人争论。

And this is something that what I call I I'm in a debate on one of these groups with what I call the OCD school.

这个强迫症学派的占星魔法观点会关注五十个因素。

And the OCD school of astrological magic looks at 50 factors.

只要这五十个因素中有任何一个出现或缺失，你的脑袋就会炸掉。

And if any of those 50 factors are either there or lacking, your head will explode.

他们对星盘非常焦虑。

So they're very paranoid about the chart.

他们会说：‘天啊，这是个水星符咒，但冥王星落在了第三宫。’

And they're like, Oh my God, it's a Mercury talism, but Pluto's in the third house.

而我会说：‘那又怎样？’

I'm like, Well, so what?

他们说：‘哦，不，这太糟糕了。’

They're like, Oh, no, that's really bad.

所以他们一直在关注成十亿个因素。

So there's all these They're looking at like a billion factors.

我对他们说：‘你们知道吗？’

I'm like, You know what guys?

如果你要实际地进行择时，就必须集中注意力。

If you're gonna be practical about elections, you're gonna have to focus.

你大概只能选择四到五个因素。

You're probably only gonna be able to choose about four or five factors.

所以，就像我说的，关键是行星处于得势状态、位置良好、行星小时，并且没有受到刑克。

And so, like I said, the planet is essentially dignified, strongly placed, planetary hour and then not afflicted.

这一点也非常关键。

That's gonna be key too.

不要形成困难相位

Not making a hard

相位比如刑相或对冲

aspect like a square in opposition

与火星成应用相，或者已经分离。

Applying with Mars or though, separate.

分离是没问题的。

Separating is fine.

好的。

Okay.

这像是卜卦占星，对吧？

This is like horary, right?

选举占星至少我所学的是，如果你看博纳蒂的例子，他会说如果已经分离，那就没问题。

Electional astrology at least what I was taught is that and if you look at Bonatti for example, he's like if you separate, you're okay.

所以，任何行星的应用刑相、应用对冲，受困扰行星的应用合相，或无尊严的土星或火星，以及被太阳照耀或逆行。

So applying square, applying opposition of any planet, applying conjunction of afflicted planet or undignified Saturn or Mars and then combust or retrograde.

这些是你主要的困扰因素。

Those are your major afflictions.

你不想让它成为主要问题。

You don't want to have it majorly.

现在，月亮空亡，嗯，随它吧。

Now, Moon void of course, well, whatever.

这并不让我担心。

It doesn't worry me.

在中世纪和文艺复兴时期的占星术中，月亮空亡并不是灾难。

Void of course is not in Medieval and Renaissance astrology a disaster.

它不像落陷、落入凶宫、逆行或被太阳燃烧那样严重。

It's not on the level of detriment or fall or retrograde or a combust.

是的。

Yeah.

有一套最糟糕的、必须不惜一切代价避免的情况的等级，以及中等或较低级别的烦扰。

There's like a hierarchy of worst case scenario things to avoid at all costs versus mid level or lower level annoyances.

有时人们，尤其是来自现代传统的人，不知道如何平衡这些，因为很少有选举占星的规则保留下来，而月亮空亡就是其中之一，它在二十世纪似乎被过分夸大了。

And sometimes people, especially coming from the modern tradition, don't know how to balance those because so few electional rules actually survived and void of course is one of them that seems like it just kind of blown out of proportion in the twentieth century.

是的。

Yeah.

我的看法是，如果你看现代占星术，真的很有趣，因为我最喜欢做的一件事就是进行命盘心理解读，我超爱这个。

Mean, my theory to that is that if you look at modern astrology, is so funny because one of my favorite things to do is a natal psychological reading, I love it.

我擅长这个，我也很喜欢做。

I'm good at them, I love doing them.

但我绝不是反对现代占星术。

So I'm not down on modern astrology by any means.

但现代占星术的问题在于，它建立在心理学视角上，所以一切都变得积极正面。

But the thing about modern is because it's built on a psychological perspective, everything's positive.

我的意思是，土星在白羊座是好的，对吧？

I mean, Saturn in Aries is good, right?

我的意思是，它并不坏。

I mean, it's not bad.

它只是土星，他很严肃，但也很开心，或者类似这样。

It's just Saturn, he's serious but he's also happy or something like that.

所以有一些不利的因素，比如空相月亮和逆行。

So there's a few things that are malefic like void of course Moon and retrogradation.

它们必须承担所有负面事物的重量。

They have to carry the weight of all the negativity for everything.

因此它们变得非常糟糕。

So they become really bad.

这真是

That's a

一个很好的观点。

good point.

逆行是现代占星术中仅有的两个负面因素。

Retrogradation, those are the only two things that are negative in modern astrology.

所以它们真的很糟糕。

So they're really bad.

你有逆行。

You have retrograde.

因为一开始是水星，水星逆行，所以你不会签合同。

So because it started out with Mercury, Mercury retrograde, well then you don't sign a contract.

我想我能够理解这一点。

Well, I suppose I could see that.

但如果水星逆行什么也不做，那其他任何行星逆行也不该有什么影响。

But then Mercury retrograde don't do anything, then any planet retrograde don't do anything.

现在还有影子期。

Now there's shadow periods.

所以每个行星逆行都不好，而且在逆行之前还有影子期。

So for every planet retrograde is bad and then there's shadow periods before now.

这简直变得失控了。

Mean, it just becomes way out of control.

逆行确实是一种不利影响。

And retrogradation, definitely it's an affliction.

但比如说，如果你在制作一个水星符咒，木星逆行会有影响吗？

But for example, if you're doing a Mercury talisman, does it matter if Jupiter's retrograde?

我的意思是，你是在强调水星的力量，对吧？

I mean, you're talking about emphasizing the power of Mercury, right?

对。

Right.

所以，再次说明，做这件事没有对错之分。

So again, there's not a right or wrong way to doing this.

我不是来告诉你，如果你想要考虑所有这些因素，那就是错的。

I'm not coming in and saying, look, that if you want to look at all these factors, that's wrong.

我只是在说，这是我的方法。

I'm just saying this is my methodology.

我认为关键是你要有一个方法，因为我看到无论是现代还是传统的择日者，都只是直接看星盘。

And I think the key is you want to have a methodology because what I see people doing both modern and traditional with elections is they just start looking at charts.

他们一看星盘，就说，哦，这是个好星盘。

They look at the chart and then they say, Oh, this is a good chart.

他们没有方法，也没有明确要关注的因素。

And they don't have a methodology, they don't have factors that they're looking at.

而我所采用的方法是，我想说的是，你知道吗？

Whereas the way I'm looking at is I'm saying, You know what?

好的，水星符咒，我们来看看明年的情况。

Okay, Mercury talisman, let's look out to the next year.

水星什么时候会进入处女座？

When's Mercury gonna be in Virgo?

好的，然后我可以把这个时间段标记出来。

Okay, and then I can block that out.

好的，当水星在处女座时，水星什么时候升起？

Okay, if Mercury is in Virgo, when's Mercury arising?

好的，水星的行星小时是什么时候？

Okay, when's Mercury planetary hour?

因此，我有一套非常系统的方法来选择吉时。

And so I have a very systematic way of finding elections.

这就是我推荐给大家的做法。

So that's what I recommend to people.

我不是说你必须跟我一样，但我建议人们最好建立一套方法，而不是盲目地翻看择时图。

I'm not saying you have to be like me, but I would suggest to people it's a good idea to have a methodology as opposed to just kind of flailing away looking at electional charts.

当然。

Sure.

为了具体说明，我想举个例子，因为《皮克特里克斯》在开篇就引入了一个护身符的例子。

So to ground this, I want to give an example because really early on the Picatrix itself introduces an example of a talisman.

我直接读一下这段话。

I'm just going to read this paragraph.

这段话实际上来自阿特雷尔和奥赫的版本，佩里卡忘了。

So this is actually from the Atrell and Oh, Perikka forgot

就在我面前。

in front of me.

因为这样能方便引用段落编号。

Just because it was able to do the passage like citation numbers.

这段出自第一卷、第五章、第一句或第一段。

So this is from Book one, Chapter five, Sentence one or passage one.

所以它说：当你希望制作一个图像或护身符，以促进两个人之间的爱情，并赋予他们的爱与喜悦如橡树般坚韧的力量时，应分别制作他们两人的形象。

So it says, When you wish to craft an image or otherwise a talisman for inducing love between two individuals and give their love and joy the strength of an oak, make images in both of their likenesses.

在木星或金星的时辰，且龙首上升时制作这些形象。

Make the image in the hour of Jupiter or Venus with the head of the dragon ascending.

也就是说，这是北交点。

So that's the North Node.

让月亮与金星同在，或以有利相位朝向金星。

Let the Moon be with Venus or looking towards her with a favorable aspect.

让第七宫的主宰星以三分或六分相位注视第一宫的主宰星。

Let the Lord of the seventh house look upon the Lord of the first house in a trine or sextile aspect.

之后，将这两个形象相拥在一起，埋在其中一个人的家中，我。

Afterwards, join the images together in an embrace and bury them at the home of one of the two people, I.

E。

E.

埋在你希望对方最深爱的那个人的家中。

At the person's home whom you wish to feel most in love.

你所有的愿望都会实现。

Whatever your desire is shall come about.

所以这是最早的例子之一，它就像一个爱情护身符，

So that's one of the first examples of it's like a love talisman that

是的。

is Yeah.

这是一种以房屋为基础的护身符。

What that is is a house based talisman.

所以这不是一个行星护身符，因为它并不是真正围绕行星构建的。

So this is not a planetary talisman because it's not really based around the planet.

这个护身符的关键在于第一宫主星和第七宫主星之间的关系。

The key thing, the key factor in that talisman is the relationship between the first house ruler and the seventh house ruler.

所以

So the

第一宫，代表爱情，对吧？

first, that's love, right?

它们形成了一个三分相，对吧？

And they're making a trine, right?

所以这确实是那次选举的精髓所在。

So that's really the essence of that election.

所以，基于宫位的护符非常有趣，而且这个也很有意思，因为它是一个双重护符，对吧？

And so, the house based talismans are really interesting because And this is an interesting one too because it's a double talisman, right?

你在制作两个。是的。

You're making You're two of Yeah.

另一个有趣的点是这些都是小雕像。

The other thing that's interesting is these are statuettes.

我的意思是，最早的护身符基本上不是吊坠，不是戒指，它们实际上是雕像。

Mean, the earliest talismans are basically they're not pendants, they're not rings, they're actually statuettes.

你让它们看起来像那个人，所以它们具有那种特性，因为它们看起来像那个人，实际上它们之间有一种魔法上的交感联系，对吧？

And you're making them look like the person so they have that because they look like the person they actually have a magical sympathetic connection to them, right?

这源自一些更古老的、类似新柏拉图主义或赫尔墨斯主义的传统，即赋予雕像或小雕像灵魂或生命。

And that's coming out of some older like Neoplatonic tradition or Hermetic tradition of insoling or enlivening statues or statuettes.

这就是《赫尔墨斯文集》。

It's that corpus hermeticum.

你在《赫尔墨斯文集》中看到了上帝的段落。

You've got the God making passages in the corpus hermeticum.

所以另一点是，它确实有效。

And so the other thing is it works.

所以你的核心观点就是，这真的有效。

So that's your main thing is that this actually works.

我想，人们刚接触这个时会问的一个问题是：像这样的东西真的管用吗？

And I guess that's one of the questions that people would have coming into this is would something like this works?

你制作出这两个人的雕像，然后选择一个与你目标相符的吉时进行，特别是上升宫的主宰星位于第七宫的时候。

You make an image of these two people and then you do it at an astrologically propitious time that matches what you're shooting for with the ruler of the Ascendant in the seventh.

在多年制作这类护身符之后，你是否真的观察到过有效或积极的结果，从而相信这是真实可行的？

And then you feel like after doing this for years and making talismans like this that you've actually seen effective or positive results that this is something that's legitimate?

首先，我不太赞成为特定的人施展爱情魔法。

First of all, I'm not a big fan of doing a love magic for a specific person.

是的

Yeah.

也许我来告诉你为什么。

Maybe I'll tell you why.

这不是一个好例子。

Is not a good example

因为这有点可疑。

because it's kind of questionable.

但这是因为我认为这与此有关。

But that's because I think that comes into it.

关于为特定的人施展爱情魔法，这里有几点要注意。

Here's the thing about doing love magic for a specific person.

使用魔法的人容易对施法对象产生执念，这会带来某种反噬。

There's a problem that the user of the magic gets obsessed with the person that they do the spell on, that there's a certain amount of backfire.

因为当你开始向这种关系注入能量时，两者之间的牵连可能会成为致命弱点。

Because when you start feeding energy into that, the retraction between those two people, that can be a downfall.

另一点是，如果你对某个特定的人感兴趣，而不是泛泛地追求爱情，成功的可能性会更低。

The other thing about it is that it's less likely to be successful if you're interested in a specific person than opposed to just doing love in general.

所以，如果你做了完全相同的护身符，只说‘爱情’，对吧？

So if you did that exact same talisman and just said love, right?

‘带给我爱情’，你更有可能获得更好的效果。

Bring me love, you're more likely to have better effects than that.

你试图越具体地实现某种效果，它发生的可能性就越小。

The more specific you're trying to get of an effect, the less likely it is to happen.

这只是因为

It's just the

现实就是这样。

reality of it.

因为这是真实的。

Because this is real.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what I'm saying?

这可不是《哈利·波特》，对吧？

This is not Harry Potter, right?

这也不是一部电影。

This is not a movie.

在电影里，你只要花十分钱的努力，就能赚到一百万美元。

In a movie, you can put 10¢ of effort and get a million dollars out of it.

但现实不是这样的。

It doesn't work that way.

灵性跟其他任何事情都一样。

Spiritual is just like anything else.

它确实有效，但有局限性。

It works but it's limited.

所以，如果你想获得大的成果，就必须投入大量时间、精力和努力。

So you have to spend a lot of time and energy and effort if you want a big result.

你投入的时间越少，得到的成果就越少。

The less time you put into it, the less result you get out of it.

听起来你正在生活中某种方式上唤起某种能量、力量或主题，尤其是在你谈论或构想它的时候，比如将‘爱’作为一种主题，使其在你的生活中变得更加突出，如果你正在制作某种通用的金星或爱情护身符的话。

And it sounds like you're invoking some sort of energy or power or theme in your life especially in the way that you're talking about or conceptualizing it here, invoking love as a theme to become more prominent in your life in some way if you're doing some sort of general, let's say, like a Venus or a love talisman.

是的。

Yeah.

我的建议是，另一个问题是你要如何与你的星盘协调。

I mean, what I would suggest to people is I'd say, Look here, another issue is how you coordinate with your chart.

假设金星在你的星盘中处于有利位置，比如在金牛座。

Let's just say Venus is well dignified, it's in Taurus or something in your chart.

今天有个人问我，制作一个金星护身符可以吗？

I had someone today that had asked me, Is a Venus talisman okay?

而他的金星正好在金牛座。

And they had Venus in Taurus.

我说，太好了。

I'm like, Yeah, great.

所以如果你制作一个金星护身符，并采用我的虔诚方式，就会产生效果。

So if you do a Venus Talisman and you do my devotional style, there is an effect.

人们往往认为，我们应该改变外部世界来适应自己，对吧？

People tend to think of, Let's make an effect of change the outward world to conform to me, right?

但同样重要的是——在很多方面，你其实是在改变自己。

There's also and I think it's even more important in lot of ways you're changing yourself.

如果你成为一个更有爱心的人，如果你展现出金星的能量，你就会更容易获得爱。

If you're a more loving person, if you manifest Venus, you're going to get love more easily.

这并不是说一切都只是你的想象，或者完全基于信念，或者完全是内在的，但这些护身符确实具有强烈的精神影响。

And not to say it's all in your head or it's all based on belief or it's all internal or something like that, but there is definitely a strong spiritual impulse effect of these talismans.

但会发生什么呢？

But what's gonna happen?

谁知道呢？

Who knows?

我的意思是，有人给我发邮件说：‘我中了彩票。’

I mean, people email me and they say, Well, I win the lottery.

我回答：‘不可能。'

I'm like, No.

事实上，今天有人给我发邮件，说他做了这个金星符咒，但失败了。

And I had someone in fact today email me and say, I did this Venus talisman and it failed.

我说：‘那你就别买我的了。’

And I said, Don't buy one of mine then.

我说：‘这明显是个危险信号。’

I said, That's a red flag right there.

也许你对效果的期望太不切实际了，但对你来说它已经失败了。

Perhaps you're being unrealistic about the effects, but it's failed for you already.

我不希望卖给你一个符咒。

I don't want to sell you a talisman.

我花了很多时间告诉人们：不，别买符咒。

And I spent a lot of time saying to people, Nope, don't buy a talisman.

所以我想这引出了我和奥斯汀之前有点纠结的一个问题：如何定义魔法，或者在这个语境下什么是占星魔法。

So I guess that brings us to one of the questions I had that Austin and I struggled with a little bit which was attempting to define magic or what astrological magic is in this context.

我在阅读《皮卡特里克斯》时，反复注意到一个主题：至少在他们的一些做法中，是通过隐秘或神秘的力量来实现意志或某种渴望，这似乎是一个核心主题。

And one of the themes that seemed like it kept coming up for me in reading to the Picatrix is at least in some of what they were doing was actualizing the will or something that was desired through hidden or occult forces as like a major theme.

我想说，很多人在进行魔法实践时，其实就是在做这件事，对吧？

I I would say that that is what a lot of people are doing when they're doing magic, right?

你甚至可以把这称为魔法，对吧？

And you could even call that magic, right?

但我所做的事情和那有点不同，因为我是个佛教徒，对吧？

But what I'm doing is a little different than that because I'm a Buddhist, right?

我是一名禅宗佛教徒。

And I'm a Zen Buddhist.

因此，我所领悟到的是：没有自我，对吧？

And so the realization that I have had is there is no self, right?

所以，我试图去实现一些根本不存在的东西，以及我那些欲望，这有点愚蠢。

So it's a little foolish for me to try to go and actualize something that doesn't even exist and the desires that I have.

我的问题就在于我有这些欲望，对吧？

That's my problem is that I have the desires, right?

我所有的痛苦都来源于此。

That's where all my suffering is coming from.