占星术的实践与哲学，由雷·格拉斯主讲

其中一点指出，出生图有时被认为能预示出生前发生的事件。

One of the points that it made was how the birth chart can indicate supposedly or at least astrologers treated as indicating sometimes events prior to birth.

例如，与父母、父母的处境、社会地位或性格等相关的事情，这些在某些情况下早在个人出生前就已经定型了。

Like for example, having to do with the parents or the parents' situation or status or character or other things like that, which are things that are already in some instances predefined before the person is even born.

与其认为行星在出生那一刻导致了这些情况，不如说它们只是反映了当时此人生命中的现实状况。

It doesn't make sense to think about the planets causing that to happen at the moment of birth, but instead simply reflecting the situation in the native's life at that time.

是的，这让我想起我曾经的一个客户，他的父亲曾遭受过一场巨大的公众丑闻，我就不细说了。

Yeah, that reminds me of a client I had once where the parent, the father had been subject, I won't go into details, but had been subject to a huge disgraceful situation in the public eye.

我的这位客户当时有土星落在第十宫，我记得是很多年前的事了，可能是土星与海王星在第十宫合相之类的。

And this client of mine had a I don't recall this had been years ago but had Saturn in the tenth house which it was something like a Saturn conjunct Neptune in the tenth house or something.

但这一点在个人的星盘中体现为父亲声誉方面的问题。

But that was shown in the person's chart in terms of some kind of problem with the father's reputation.

而且，这种情况发生在这个人出生之前。

And again, it happened before the person was born.

那么，你如何用传统的机械论来解释这一点呢？

So how do you explain that in regular mechanistic terms?

继续吧。

Go Yeah.

往前说。

Ahead.

这引发了一个有趣的问题。

It raises an interesting question.

我在其中一本书里写过一章，讲的就是这个非常棘手的问题：你会遇到一些人，他们一生经历非常创伤，可能来自一个困难的家庭，而这些在星盘中也能看出来。

I have a chapter on this in one of those books about It's a very problematic question that astrology raises which is you'll have someone come to you who's had a very traumatic life, maybe a difficult family, and you see it in the chart.

也许你会看到土星与冥王星合相在第四宫，或者类似的情况，比如在天蝎座。

Maybe you'll see some Saturn conjunct Pluto in the fourth house or whatever it might be in Scorpio for instance.

于是这个人来找你，诉说他们坎坷的人生经历，就像我遇到过的一个案例，这个人抱怨父母如何毁了他们的一生。

So the person comes to you and they've had this difficult life and this happened to me where the person was complaining about what their mother and father had done to screw them up.

但这种模式在他们出生的那一刻，就已经存在于星盘中了。

And yet that pattern was there at the moment they were born in the horoscope.

你不想责怪受害者，但与此同时，他们确实带着这种模式来到这个世界。

You don't want to blame the victim, by the same token, they came in with that pattern.

那么，这到底从何而来？

So where does that really come from?

换句话说，这个人成长过程中所经历的创伤和困难。

In other words, the traumas and the difficulties that person has as they grow up.

这显然是一个难以谈论的领域，但同样地，你带着某些星盘模式来到世上，这些模式会在生活中显现，而你如何应对则取决于你自己。

This is obviously a tricky area to talk about, but again, you come in with certain patterns in your chart that manifest in your life and it's up to you how you react to those.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得这很有趣。

I think it's interesting.

我的一个想法是，假设两个孩子在同一时间在同一医院出生，都有相似的困难的第四宫配置，但他们回家后却落入了不同的家庭，被卷入了不同的成长环境——每个家庭的父母都有不同的星盘，这些星盘会以不同方式与孩子的基本星盘互动，有的更支持，有的则更不支持。

Mean, one of the differences I've always thought about is how you could have two people born at the hospital at the same time with the same difficult fourth house placements, but each of them go home with different parents and get locked into a different family unit, let's say, or living situation growing up where each of those parents has a different birth chart that's gonna interact either more or less favorably or let's say in a way that's more either supportive or more unsupportive in certain ways of some of the basic placements in a person's birth chart.

我认为这正是为什么人们会以截然不同的方式展现相同的星盘配置的原因之一，因为它涉及天性与教养的互动：我们一些最优秀的特质可能在早期环境中得到鼓励，而在其他情况下，我们一些最糟糕的特质反而可能被强化和加剧，而不是被温和地引导和转化。

And I think that's one of the reasons why people can manifest some of the same placements so wildly differently because it has to do with that nature versus nurture situation of some of our best qualities can either be encouraged in our early living situation or in other instances maybe some of our worst qualities could be encouraged and exacerbated rather than tamed and worked with in a more constructive fashion.

我认为这也与你出生的文化背景有关。

It also I think connects to the culture you're born into.

多年前我为《山地占星师》杂志采访过诺尔·蒂尔，我们讨论了必须考虑一个人的文化背景。

I did an interview for Mountain Astrologer many years ago with Noelle Till and we were talking about how you have to take into account the cultural background of the person.

例如，一个在日本出生、木星与太阳在狮子座合相的人，其能量表现方式会与在美国出生的同样合相木星的人截然不同。

So for instance, a person who's got a Jupiter conjuncting Sun in Leo born in Japan is going to manifest that energy very differently than a person with conjunct in Jupiter in America for instance.

因此，这也会改变能量在一个人生活中的表现方式。

So that can modify the way the energy manifests in a person's life as well.

没错。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

另一个你提到的领域是，占星显然建立在象征意义上，这一点对理解一些基本技法至关重要，比如逆行现象——这是一种完全与观察者相关的观测现象。这很有趣，因为一些怀疑论者和科学家会指出，这只不过是一种视觉上的偶然现象，并非真实存在，但这恰恰揭示了占星学的一个基本原理：它与象征、预兆等概念紧密相连。

So one other area where you pointed out that astrology is obviously working on symbolism and this is critical to understanding some of the basic techniques is in retrogradation, for example, as being a phenomenon, an observational phenomenon that's entirely relevant to the observer, which is interesting because that points to what while some skeptics and scientists will point to that as just like this is not even a real phenomenon because it's just a visual visually apparent accidental phenomenon rather than some sort of actual some specific more concrete thing that actually points to one of the basic principles of astrology and being tied in with symbolism and omenology and things like that.

是的，这具有现象学层面的意义，且高度地心中心化——如果有人试图说服你，有一种来自行星的力在驱动占星现象，你只需问问他们关于水星逆行的事。

Yeah, there's a phenomenological aspect to it that is heavily geocentric in the sense of if someone tries to convince you that there is a force coming from the planets that is causing astrology to happen, just ask them about Mercury retrograde.

我认为大多数占星师都同意，尽管我们可能对它的强度看法不一。

I think most astrologers agree that we might disagree on how strong it is.

但我不认为许多占星师会不同意它有影响。

But I don't think many astrologers would disagree that it has an impact.

如果这纯粹是基于地球视角的幻觉，因为水星实际上并没有倒退，那它怎么可能是某种与力相关的东西呢？

Well, how can that be a force related sort of thing if indeed it's purely an illusion based on the Earth's perspective because Mercury isn't actually going backwards.

这完全是从我们地球上的立场来看的现象。

It's strictly something that's from our standpoint here on the Earth.

因此，这里没有任何东西可以与来自行星的某种力联系起来。

So there's nothing there that you can relate to a force emanating from the planet.

对。

Right.

这不仅仅是地心说的问题，它实际上回归到所有占卜形式的一个更基本的原则，即一切皆相对于观察者的视角和位置，以及事物在特定时刻从观察者或体验征兆者的特定视角所呈现的方式，这才是关键。

And it's not just that it's geocentric per se, but it actually goes back to a more basic principle that's fundamental to all forms of divination which is that everything is relative to the perspective and the location of the observer and how things appear relative to the perspective of the observer or the one experiencing the omen at that specific moment in time from their specific vantage point, that is what matters.

我们并不是从一个普遍的立场来看待事物，而是主观性才是最重要的。

And we're not necessarily looking at things from a universal standpoint, but instead the subjective is what's most important.

是的。

Yeah.

例如，古希腊人和古罗马人相信观察鸟类的飞行。

For instance, the ancient Greeks and the ancient Romans believed in looking at the flight of augurs.

顺便说一下，'就职'这个词可以追溯到占卜和征兆解释。

And the word inauguration, by the way, goes all the way back to augury and omenological interpretation.

我们的语言中保留了许多类似的遗迹，比如'disaster'（灾难）和'augury'（占卜）、'inauguration'（就职）。

There are a lot of these vestiges that come down to us in our language like disaster and augury, the inauguration.

但古希腊人和罗马人会把鸟飞行的方向视为象征，而站在鸟另一侧的人会看到它从右向左飞，而我则会看到它从左向右飞。

But the ancient Greeks and Romans would look at the direction a bird is flying by as symbolic, but a person standing on the other side of that bird is going to see it going from right to left whereas I'm going to see it going from left to right.

因此，这在该符号的意义上造成了根本性的差异。

And so that makes a fundamental difference in the meaning of that symbol.

正如你所说，是个体的视角决定了这件事对那个人的意义。

As you said, it's the perspective of the individual that determines what the meaning of that thing is for that person.

是的。

Yeah.

因此，当涉及到我们将来会探讨的另一个子话题时，这一点至关重要，那就是系外行星占星术，或者经常被问到的问题：当占星师离开地球，开始在其他星球（比如火星）上殖民，或者最终进入一个拥有不同行星配置或不同行星顺序的完全不同的星系时，会发生什么？

So this is really crucial when it comes to another subtopic we're going to touch on at some point which is exoplanet astrology or the question that comes up frequently that I get all the time which is what happens when astrologers go outside of Earth and either start, for example, colonizing other planets such as Mars or let's say at some point end up in a completely different solar system that has a different planetary setup or a different planetary order or what have you.

通常这个问题会被表述为：占星术还有效吗？

The way it's usually phrased as a question is, does astrology still work?

或者，十二星座还是一样的吗？

Or are the 12 signs the same?

但部分答案是：不，你必须根据那个星球及其观测视角构建一套全新的占星体系。

But part of the answer is no, you'd have to construct an entirely new system of astrology relative to that planet and relative to that vantage point.

但既然从一开始就知道，占星学的基础在于一切皆相对于观测者及其位置，这似乎是一个根本性的起点。

But knowing that from the start that the entire basis of it is that everything is relative to the observer and their location seems like one of the fundamental starting points.

是的。

Yeah.

假设你去到一个没有像地球那样地轴倾斜的行星，你就不再有回归黄道，因为回归黄道是基于地球地轴倾斜所形成的季节变化。

And so let's say you go to a planet that doesn't have a tilt on the axis like the Earth does, you suddenly don't have a tropical zodiac because the tropical zodiac is based on the seasons of the tilt of the Earth's axis.

所以在其他行星上，你只能依赖恒星黄道。

So you're left with the sidereal zodiac on let's say another planet.

但假设你身处另一个太阳系，那里的星座可能完全不同于我们这里的星座。

But let's say you're in a different solar system, it might be an entirely different set of constellations than what we have here.

你把这些分成十二份吗？

You divide those up into 12?

或者像金星和水星这样没有卫星的行星，而火星则有两颗卫星。

Or if there are no moons like Venus and Mercury, there's no moons whereas there are two moons on Mars.

对我来说，这个问题是：如果你在银河系的另一个地方发现了一个不同的恒星系统，那个系统里会有类似土星的行星、类似木星的行星、类似水星的行星吗？

And the question that comes up for me is if you find a different solar system in a different part of the galaxy, would you have a Saturn like planet in that solar system and a Jupiter like planet in that solar system, a Mercury?

它们的意义会与我们这里的相似吗？

Would they be comparable in their meanings?

每个恒星系统都会有一些特定的原型原则吗？

Would each solar system have certain archetypal principles?

因为我们倾向于认为我们的行星——水星、金星、火星、地球、木星等——具有原型基础。

Because we want to think that our planets Mercury, Venus, Mars, Earth, Jupiter, etcetera have an archetypal basis.

如果这确实是真实的，那是否意味着另一个恒星系统中的这些行星也会具有与我们这里相似的意义，包括太阳？

If that's really true then would that not suggest that those planets in another solar system would have some kind of meaning comparable to ours and the Sun.

另一个恒星系统中的太阳会有什么样的意义？

What would be the meaning of a Sun in a different solar system?

我们观察恒星。

We look at fixed stars.

那是什么？

What's that?

这让我想起我之前看过的《众神变迁》这部纪录片，它将在一月播出。

What it makes me think of is the way that I was watching like the Changing of the Gods series, the documentary that's coming out in January.

我想你也最近看过吧。

Think you watched it recently too.

其中一件有趣的事情是，第一集里他们谈到了希腊和罗马神话，而我们的行星正是以这些神话命名的。

One of the things they did that was interesting really early was in the first episode was they were talking a little bit about the Greek and Roman mythology, which the planets are named after.

但他们紧接着就开始讨论其他神话和文化，这些文化中也有类似的原型，但故事有时不同，或者你能看到其他传统中某些神祇的相似之处，但也常有重大差异。

But then they also immediately started talking about other mythologies and other cultures where they have similar archetypes but sometimes different stories or where you can see similarities in how certain gods and goddesses are treated in other traditions, but there's also sometimes major differences.

这让我想到，在另一个太阳系中，你可能会发现某些行星和原型之间存在共鸣，但也可能存在重大差异。

It makes me think that that's how it might be in another solar system where you might find resonances with certain planets and certain archetypes, but there would also be some major differences.

是的，我同意。

Yeah, I agree.

或者你拿太阳和月亮来说，大多数神秘主义者都会认为月亮是女性的，太阳是男性的。

Or you even take the Sun and the Moon and this is often brought up about most occultists would see the Moon as feminine and the Sun as masculine.

然而在德语中，'die' 和 'der' 这两个冠词表明，德语语言体系里月亮是阳性的，而太阳是阴性的。

And yet in German, die and der, that's the Moon is considered in the language system in German as masculine and the Sun is feminine.

你对此会重视多少呢？

How much do you take those into account?

对我来说，这并不是个大问题，因为这两个天体都具备对方的特质，所以我并不觉得这是非黑即白的事情。

And for me, that's not a big issue because both luminaries have qualities of the opposite luminary so I don't see it as a cut and dry thing.

顺便说一句，我之前想补充一点关于太阳和月亮的，但忘了说，那就是据我所知，这是太阳系中唯一一个太阳和月亮在天空中看起来大小相同的点，这使得像今天早上我们经历的日食成为可能。

And by the way, want to add one other point to the Sun Moon that I wanted to add before and I forgot it, which is that this is to my understanding the only point in the solar system where the Sun and the Moon are the same size, which makes eclipses like we had earlier this morning possible.

是的。

Yeah.

我昨晚熬得很晚。

I stayed up really late last night.

今天我状态不太好，因为昨晚观看了发生在金牛座的月食，我一直在想的是，从地球上的视角来看，月亮在天空中的大小和太阳完全一致，这对于我们所处的视角来说其实非常重要。

I'm pretty out of it today after watching that lunar eclipse last night in Taurus and that was something I was really thinking about was just from our vantage point on Earth, the Moon is the exact same size as the Sun in the sky and that's actually really important relative to our perspective.

是的，太阳距离我们远了400倍。

Yeah, the Sun is 400 times farther away.

大概是这样一个公式，月亮也是400倍左右。

It's some equation like this and the Moon is 400 whatever that is.

重点在于，这是一种极其和谐的关系，但这种状态不会永远持续。

The point is that it's such a close harmony, but it's not going to be that way forever.

最终，月亮会随着时间推移，一千年又一千年地逐渐远离。

Eventually, the Moon is moving further and further back, millennia by millennia.

在某个时刻，月亮将变得远得多。

And at some point, the Moon's going to be much farther back.

我们正处在一个历史节点上，我不知道具体是前后多少千年，那时太阳和月亮彼此处于一种平衡状态。

We're at a point in history, I don't know how many thousand years on either side when they are in a balance with each other.

在神秘传统中，人们非常重视所谓的‘日月结合’，即平衡对立面。

And there's tremendous importance in the occult traditions placed on something called the marriage of the Sun and the Moon, the balancing the polarities.

因此，我们现在可能正处在一个极其珍贵的历史时刻，或许正发生着某种觉醒，而这种觉醒在两万年后可能不会再以同样的方式出现。

So we may be at a point in history now that's very precious in terms of there may be a possibility of some kind of awakening that's taking place at this stage in humanity's history that may not be possible twenty thousand years from now in the same exact way anyway.

我刚才有点跑题了。

I got off track there a little bit.

你刚才在说别的事情，我却岔开了话题。

You were talking about something else and I took a detour there.

是的，没关系。

Yeah, that's all right.

这又是另一个非常鲜明的例子，再次强调了观察者的视角才是关键。从我们的角度来看，太阳和月亮在大小上的相似性，使它们在占星体系中呈现出某种对等性，仿佛是同一枚硬币的两面。

That's another good really striking one where again, it just further drives home that point that the perspective of the observer is what's important and from our vantage point, the quality of the Sun and Moon in size from our vantage point gives them a sort of parity and equality in the astrological system as being sort of two sides of the same coin in some sense.

对。

Yeah.

关于它们的特质，你谈到了太阳和月亮的现象学。

And about the qualities, you're talking about the phenomenology of the Sun and the Moon.

月亮是一个局部的天体。

The Moon is a local body.

太阳则是一个更客观的天体。

The Sun is a more objective body.

我所说的意思是，我刚开始学习占星时学到的第一件事就是，月亮是一个主观的放大器。

And what I mean by that is one of the first things I learned when I was studying astrology was that the Moon is a subjective amplifier.

太阳是一个客观的放大器。

The Sun is an objective amplifier.

星盘中任何被月亮影响的元素，都会倾向于成为个人自身更直接体验到的事物，而这些并不容易被外界察觉。

Whatever the Moon touches in the horoscope is going to tend to be something that the person experiences themselves more so that isn't as visible to the outer world.

与出生图中太阳相位相关的因素，则往往更容易被外界看到，更具客观性。

Things that aspect your Sun in the birth chart tend to be things that are visible to the world, they're more objective.

我认为这一点也体现在月亮是本地天体，而太阳却远在天边。

And that's I think reflected in the fact that the Moon is a local body and the Sun is way out there.

每个人都能看到太阳，但假如有人住在土星上，他们不会像我们这样感受到或看到地球的月亮。

Everybody sees the Sun but not someone on the planet Saturn, if someone could live on Saturn, would not be affected or would not see the Moon of the Earth in the same way we do.

因此，这种现象学再次为我们提供了线索。

So again, there's that phenomenology that I think gives us clues.

是的。

Yeah.

或者甚至从更字面的意义上说，月亮代表你的家和生活环境，而月亮本身作为离我们最近的天体，就在地球旁边，这在象征意义上也代表了我们的家和生活状况。

Or even just for other very literal manifestations of the Moon, the Moon representing your home and your living situation and the Moon literally being the closest celestial body to us right next to Earth and that symbolically representing our sort of home and living situation.

是的，没错。

Yeah, right.

对。

Yeah.

好的。

All right.

我想转到其他一些话题。

I wanted to move on to some other topics.

其中一个和我们刚才提到的有关，那就是行星的留点，比如水星逆行的留点，以及其他行星的留点，以及留点在个人占星和世俗占星中的强大力量。

One, it's kind of tied in with this one that we just mentioned which is the stations, the Mercury retrograde stations is other planetary stations and just the power of stationary points both personal and in mundane astrology.

我知道这是你写过并特别强调的内容。

I know this is something that you've written about and like to emphasize.

我的一位老师，一位出生于芝加哥的瑜伽士高斯瓦米·克里亚南达，把留点比作烙印效果。

One of my teachers, a Chicago born yogi named Goswami Kriyananda referred to stations as having a branding iron effect.

我觉得这种说法非常好，因为当一个天体长时间静止不动时，它的影响会更加深刻。

And I thought that was a really good way to put it because it impresses itself that much more by standing still so long.

因此，当你看到冥王星、海王星或任何其他行星的停留点时，往往会发现这种能量在集体或个人星盘中被放大了。

And so when you see a Pluto or Neptune or any station point, you tend to see that energy amplified in the collective or in the person's chart.

所以当你观察某人的个人星盘时，会看到尼尔·阿姆斯特朗出生时正值天王星停留点，达赖喇嘛出生时正值木星停留点，等等。

So you look at someone's individual chart and you see like Neil Armstrong born on a Uranus station point, the Dalai Lama on a Jupiter station point, etcetera.

而在文化事件方面，这些现象的出现频率之高令人惊讶，比如约翰·肯尼迪，约翰·F.

And in terms of cultural events, it's uncanny how many times you see these things manifest like when John Kennedy, John F.

肯尼迪，我是说，在1961年，他发表了那场著名的关于登月的演讲。

Kennedy, Sr, I mean, back in 'sixty one, he gave that famous speech talking about going to the Moon.

而那天，我认为正是木星在水瓶座顺行的日子，这非常契合那种前瞻、宏大的愿景。

And that was on the day I think that Jupiter turned direct in Aquarius which is very futuristic, that expansive vision sort of thing.

我年纪足够大，还记得尼克松政府时期的水门事件。

I'm old enough to remember the Watergate scandal under the Nixon administration.

而这一事件的开端，是一群被称为‘水管工’的人员在水门酒店被捕，当时正值冥王星停留点，这似乎非常贴切。

And that really began when the group of they were called the plumbers curiously enough were caught at the Watergate Hotel and that was under a Pluto station point which seems to be very fitting.

或者几年前，有12个孩子和他们的足球教练被困在泰国的一个洞穴里。

Or like when it was a few years ago that these 12 kids got stuck in a cave in Thailand with their football coach.

而他们获救的那天，正是木星我认为是进入天蝎座并开始顺行的日子。

And the day they got rescued was the day that Jupiter went I think it was direct in Scorpio.

这种象征意义完美契合。

The symbolism fits beautifully.

你一再看到这种现象出现在文化事件中，比如五角大楼文件的泄露发生在冥王星和天王星的停滞点，而1890年的伤膝河大屠杀则发生在土星的停滞点。

You see this time and again with cultural events or like the believe that the Pentagon Papers was under a Pluto and Uranus station point and Wounded Knee, the massacre in 1890 was under a Saturn station point.

有趣的是，伍德斯托克音乐节发生在金牛座的土星停滞点，这很有趣，因为我记忆中的伍德斯托克画面是人们在泥浆里打滚，而且活动一开始困难重重。

Interestingly, Woodstock was under a Saturn station point in Taurus which is funny because the images I have of Woodstock was people rolling in mud and there were all these problems trying to get it off the ground.

事实上，人们拆掉了围栏，活动最终变成了一场彻底的灾难，但就文化而言，它却成为了一个极具影响力的符号。

In fact, people broke down the fences and it just became a total washout except culturally became a very powerful meme in the culture you might say.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为你提到的一个非常棒的观点是，有时一个人的星盘中会有某些行星特别突出，它们的影响力远超应有的程度，几乎像被打上了感叹号，而人们却不太清楚原因，因为这些行星既不是落在角宫，也没有强烈的相位支持。

And I think one of the points you made that I thought was really good is that sometimes there'll be certain planets in a person's chart where they'll just stand out and they'll sort of be way louder than they should or almost have an exclamation mark next to them and people won't really be clear why because it's not like an angular planet or it's not heavily aspected or something like that.

但如果行星正好处于顺行或逆行留点附近，这本身就可以是原因。

But if it is stationary, pretty close to stationing retrograde or direct, that itself can be the reason why.

我觉得你提出的这一点非常深刻、有趣且真实，我也发现了同样的情况。

And I thought that was really poignant and fascinating and true observation that I found as well.

这又回到了一个规则。

That goes back to a rule.

我知道你在文章中提到过，人们忽视留点的一个问题是，他们只看电脑屏幕时，没意识到行星其实已经非常接近留点了。

I know one of things you pointed out in your article is that sometimes the issue with people overlooking stationary points is they don't realize if they're just looking at computer screen that the planet's really close to stationing.

但如果你查看星历表，古代的范围会指出，如果一个人出生在行星逆行或顺行留点前后七天内，那就属于需要关注或留意的范围。

But if you look at an ephemeris, the ancient range, they would say if a person was born within seven days of a planet stationing retrograde or direct, that was the range more or less to pay attention to or watch out for.

如果你查看你出生那个月的星历表，就能很清楚地看出是否有行星在你出生前后七天内发生逆行或顺行留点。

And if you look at an ephemeris for the month that you were born, you can see pretty clearly if a planet stationed retrograde or direct within seven days of your birth.

这是电脑输出的一个问题。

It's one of the problems of computer readouts.

你不一定能感受到留点的存在。

You don't necessarily have that sense of the station.

冥王星可以停留在同一个度数长达近两个月，甚至超过两个月。

And Pluto can be in the same degree for almost two months, if not more than two months.

因此，你可以认为它已经深深烙印在那个度数上了。

And so it's branded into that degree, you might say.

你刚才提到的一个很好的例子，是我曾在佛罗里达跟随学习的老师谢莉·特雷莫尔，他是一位极其独立、富有前瞻性且具有科学精神的人，同时也在研究神秘学。

And a good example of what you just brought up was the teacher I studied with in Florida, Shelley Tremor was an extremely independent futuristic scientific sort of fellow in addition to his occult studies.

我一直搞不懂为什么他的天王星在出生图中并不那么强大。

And I could not figure out his Uranus was not that powerful in the natal chart.

有一天，我决定查一下，他出生于1917年，是个天蝎座。

One day I decided to look up, he was born in 1917, a Scorpio in 1917.

他出生的那天正好是天王星转退的时刻，离迪齐·吉莱斯皮的出生日只差几天——这很有趣，因为迪齐·吉莱斯皮是一位前卫的爵士小号手，对量子物理之类的东西很着迷。

And the day that he was born was right on the Uranus station, a few days apart from Dizzy Gillespie, by the way, which is interesting because Dizzy Gillespie was this avant garde sort of jazz trumpeter that was into quantum physics and all this sort of thing.

或者，你可以看看汤姆·克鲁斯非凡好运的原因。

Or you take what accounts for Tom Cruise's extraordinary luck.

比如，我记得早在80年代，我就曾和别人讨论过，说难以置信的是，这个人怎么总能拿到所有角色，怎么总能一路畅通无阻。

For instance, I remember even back in the 80s thinking, I remember talking to someone and they were saying, It's unbelievable how this guy gets all the roles and how he has doors open.

是的，他很有野心，但并不是最出色的演员，却不知为何运气特别好。

Yeah, he's ambitious, but he's not the greatest actor, yet somehow he's extraordinary lucky.

如果你看他的星盘，他会形成一个大三合相，但还有一颗木星停滞。

And if you look at his chart, he's got a grand trine, but there's a Jupiter station.

因此，我在关于停滞行星的论文中提到的一个观点是：任何由停滞行星形成的相位都会被极大地强化。

So one of the points I make in my essay on the stations is that whatever aspects are being made by a stationing planet become amplified that much more so as well.

所以，在我看来，汤姆·克鲁斯星盘中的这个大三合相因为木星的停滞而变得更加强大。

So you have this grand shrine that is in Tom Cruise's chart that is that much stronger because of the Jupiter station in my opinion.

是的，这个观点非常棒。

Yeah, that's a really great point.

让我快速展示一下他的星盘。

Let me bring up his chart really quickly to show that.

我没有查过我们的出生时间数据，但仅就观察行星是否接近停滞而言，这可能并不完全相关。

I didn't look at my data how our birth time is for this, but I guess it's not fully relevant for just looking at the planet and if it's close to stationing.

这是汤姆·克鲁斯的星盘，出生日期为1962年7月3日，出生时间不确定为纽约锡拉丘兹晚上9点32分。

So here's Tom Cruise's chart 07/03/1962 using a not sure time of 09:32PM in Syracuse, New York.

我们看到木星位于双鱼座12度，Solar Fire显示它目前是逆行。

We see Jupiter at 12 degrees of Pisces and it says that it's retrograde here in solar fire.

但我有一个小表格，这就是我使用自己设计的Solar Fire布局的原因，我还在我的YouTube频道提供了可下载的链接。

But I have this little table and this is why I use this layout that I designed for solar fire and I have links to it that people can download from my YouTube channel.

但在右下角，我放了一个表格，标明行星是逆行还是顺行，所以我们来看一下右下角的木星。

But in the bottom right corner, I have a table that says if a planet is retrograde or direct, so we'll look at Jupiter in the bottom right table.

它显示了行星上一次停留的星座以及上一次停留距今有多久。

It says what its last stationary sign was and how recently its last station was.

表格显示木星是在1.7天前在双鱼座停止并开始逆行。

It said that Jupiter stationed one point seven days ago in the sign of Pisces.

他出生的时间，恰好是木星逆行停止后仅1.7天。

He was born literally just one point seven days after Jupiter stationing retrograde.

你还可以通过在Solar Fire或Astral Gold等软件中动画播放星盘、往回推一天来观察：木星旁边会出现一个'S'，表示它处于停滞状态；再往回推一天，它仍是停滞；再推两天，你会发现就在他出生前两天，木星在技术上仍处于顺行状态。

And another way that you can see this is just animating the chart in a program like Solar Fire or Astral Gold and moving it backwards, let's say one day and it switches to an S next to Jupiter which is stationary or another day back and it's stationary or two days back and you can see that it was still direct technically just two days before he was born.

所以，即使仅使用软件，你也可以通过动画播放来识别停滞的行星。

So that's another way that you can identify stationary planets even just using a program is by animating them.

这很好。

That's good.

我之前不知道这个。

Didn't know about that.

是的，这没什么帮助。

Yeah, it's not helpful.

但行星的留点非常重要。

But stations are super important.

你提到过木星在水瓶座的顺行留点，那具体是关于什么的来着？

You mentioned the sort of forward thinking Jupiter station in Aquarius and what was that for again?

因为这会带来

Because that brings

提升，那是关于约翰·F.的。

up That was for John F.

肯尼迪。

Kennedy.

那是六十年代的一个标志性时刻，约翰·F·肯尼迪发表演讲，说我们将在本十年结束前登陆月球，把人送上月球，这在当时被一些人认为是荒谬的。

It was an iconic moment in the sixties when John F.

肯尼迪说我们将在本十年结束前登陆月球，把人送上月球，这在当时被一些人认为是荒谬的。

Kennedy gave a talk saying that we're gonna land on the Moon by We're gonna put a man on the Moon by the end of the decade, which was considered outrageous by some people.

人们觉得在八年——实际上应该是七年——内要把这一切全部实现。

To think that in eight years, actually, think it was seven, they were going to get this all together.

我觉得木星当时正位于水瓶座。

And Jupiter I think was stationing in Aquarius.

忘了具体日期，但那是1961年。

Forget the date, but it was in 1961.

好的。

Okay.

我喜欢这一点，因为上个月十月，我就注意到其中一两次，当时木星在水瓶座完成了最后一次顺行留，木星和土星都在2021年10月于水瓶座顺行留。

I like that because I just noticed one or two of those last month in October when Jupiter made its final direct station, both Jupiter and Saturn station direct in Aquarius in October 2021 here.

就在那之后不久，我认为大约一周内，Facebook创始人马克·扎克伯格宣布将公司更名为Meta，因为他们正为即将到来的元宇宙以及与虚拟现实相关的各种事物做准备，这被视为继社交网络之后，商业、科技和货币（如比特币）、图像（如NFT）等领域的下一代浪潮。

One of the announcements not long after that time, I think within a week or so or about a week later, was the announcement by the Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg about changing the name of the company to Meta because they were gearing it up for this thing that they're anticipating which is the metaverse and all the different things connected with virtual reality and other things like that being the next wave of the future in terms of not just social networking, but commerce and technology and money like Bitcoin and images like NFTs and all the different things tied in with that.

你提到登月计划和肯尼迪宣布这件事时，有趣的是，在1960年代初，人们肯定觉得在十年内有人能踏上月球简直荒谬可笑。

And what's funny about you mentioning the moonshot thing and Kennedy announcing that is that must have sounded pretty farcical that by the end of the decade, a person would be walking on the Moon, I'm guessing at that stage in the early 1960s.

但结果呢，不到十年，他们真的做到了，是在六八年还是六九年？

But then lo and behold, less than a decade later, they had actually pulled it off in what, like 'sixty eight or 'sixty nine?

六九年。

'sixty nine.

是的，七月九号。

Yeah, July '9.

是的。

Yeah.

你提到元宇宙这一点真精彩。

That's a great catch about the metaverse.

我居然没注意到这一点。

I missed that somehow.

对。

Yeah.

嗯，我之所以注意到这一点，是因为我们为本月的一些最佳择时星盘选定了这个日期范围，特别是水瓶座上升、木星和土星在水瓶座停滞的星盘。

Well, it's like I caught that because we picked that date range for some of our best electional charts of the month, specifically for Aquarius rising charts with Jupiter and Saturn stationing in Aquarius.

我觉得这很奇怪，因为在那前后二十四小时内，新闻还宣布奥巴马在芝加哥为他的总统图书馆破土动工，而他们早已计划多年。

And I thought it was weird because also within twenty four hours of that, there was also an announcement in the news that Obama had broken ground on his presidential library in Chicago, which they had been planning for many years.

当然，奥巴马以水瓶座上升和木星位于水瓶座而闻名。

And of course, Obama famously has Aquarius rising and Jupiter in Aquarius.

因此，令人好奇的是，在他的行运星盘中，当时他正经历木星回归，木星在他的第一宫直接停滞，而就在那时，他的总统图书馆正式奠基。

So it was curious and interesting that in his transiting chart, what happened was transiting Jupiter, he was having a Jupiter return and Jupiter stationed direct in Aquarius in his first house when that presidential library was essentially founded.

关于木星的整个情况其实很复杂，因为你不能简单地用好坏来评判，比如达赖喇嘛、唐纳德·特朗普和阿道夫·希特勒，他们出生时都遭遇了木星停滞。

The whole thing with Jupiter, it's very tricky in terms of you can't place value judgments on these in terms of good or bad because you had the Dalai Lama, Donald Trump and Adolf Hitler were all born under Jupiter stations.

没错。

Right.

比如希特勒，我记得是木星与他的月亮成合相，他的月亮位于热带摩羯座。

And like you take Hitler for instance, and I think it was Jupiter conjuncting Moon, his Moon in tropical Capricorn.

因此，他拥有这种宏大的愿景，比如所谓的千年帝国之类的东西。

And so he had this expansive vision, a thousand years of the Reich and all this sort of thing.

所以这种扩张体现在政府层面，但并不完全是吉祥的；而达赖喇嘛的情况则不同，我这里就不对特朗普的政治立场发表评论了。

And so it was expansive in a governmental way, but it wasn't exactly a benefic sort of thing whereas in the case of the Dalai Lama, now I'm not going to get into politics here with Trump.

但同样，那里也有一种宏大的愿景。

But again, there is an expansive vision there.

至于你认为这是积极的扩张还是消极的扩张，那就见仁见智了。

Whether you see it as a good expansive or a bad expansive, that's up to you.

但我还是想把这一点也提出来讨论一下。

But I wanted to throw that into the mix too.

是的。

Yeah.

不，特朗普实际上是一个非常引人注目的当代例子，因为他在出生那天木星正好停滞，我一直认为这是他最隐秘、最强大的优势之一——这也是他星盘中最积极、最不易被察觉的特质之一，那就是他出生那天木星的停滞。

No, Trump is actually one of the most compelling contemporary examples station because Jupiter was stationing the day he was born and I've always treated that or thought of that as one of his hidden greatest That's one of the most positive sort of subtle and easy to overlook things about his chart, but it's one of the most positive things in his chart is that Jupiter station on the day he was born.

另一个常被人们忽略的是，不仅木星在停滞，海王星也在停滞。

The other one that people actually often overlook is it wasn't just Jupiter that was stationing Neptune.

海王星位于2.7度。

Neptune was in 2.7.

如果你看右下角的表格，海王星当时距离留退只有2.7天。

If you look at the table in the bottom right, Neptune was just two point seven days away from stationing.

所以他在出生时，木星和海王星都在他的第三宫——沟通宫中留退，这在某种程度上成了他隐藏的超级能力之一。

So he was having a Jupiter station and a Neptune station in his third house of communication when he was born and that of course ends up being part of his secret superpower in some ways.

这其实也与夸大有关。

Well, that also ties into exaggeration.

是的。

Yeah.

我不想说谎话之类的，但至少在他周围一直存在诚实与信任方面的问题，还有这种夸大现象。

And I don't want to say lies or whatever, but certainly there's been around him at the very least issues of honesty and trust and all this sort of thing and exaggeration.

是的。

Yeah.

还有他对此所做的各种尝试。

And his different attempts to do things with that.

是的，我们不必深入讨论这个，但这是个完整的话题。

Yeah, so we don't have to get into that, but that's a whole thing.

很好的当代例子。

Good contemporary examples.

我认为这很好地说明了，星盘中的留点有时是隐秘但重要的。

I think that makes the point pretty well that stations are important as sometimes secret.

我总是说，这就像在星盘中的行星旁边加了一个感叹号，尤其是当一颗行星在留点前后七天内时，它的重要性会远超其他因素所显示的，值得特别关注。

I always say it puts like an exclamation mark next to the planet in the chart and it's something that you should pay attention to as being much more prominent than the planet might look otherwise according to other factors if a planet is within seven days especially of stationing.

这一点在本命盘中也是如此。

So that's true in natal charts.

在行运中，当一颗行星发生留点时，尤其是当它与本命行星通过主要相位近距离相合时，也值得关注。

It's also something to pay attention to in transits when a planet stations, especially if it's stationing close to a natal planet through let's say like a major aspect.

最后，正如你提到的，在世俗占星学中，留点也同样重要。

And then also finally, as you've mentioned in mundane astrology, stations can be important as well.

让我再补充一点，就像我们讨论特朗普时提到的，双留点甚至三留点的情况。

Well, let me add one other point and that is like we talked about with Trump, double stations or even triple.

伯尼·桑德斯出生时经历了三重留点，分别是火星、天王星和土星，有趣的是，这天恰好也是列宁格勒围城战在俄罗斯爆发的开始日。

Bernie Sanders was born under a triple station which was Mars, Uranus and Saturn which was the same date curiously enough as the siege of Leningrad starting in Russia.

但这里有一种融合。

But there's a blending.

我把双星或三星停驻点视为具有合相的特质。

I regard double or triple station points as having a quality of like a conjunction.

以艾米·怀恩豪斯为例，她有金星停驻和海王星停驻。

So you take Amy Winehouse for example had Venus Station and Neptune Station.

齐柏林飞船的吉米·佩奇则有火星和海王星停驻。

Jimmy Page of Led Zeppelin had Mars and Neptune Station.

看看艾米·怀恩豪斯和吉米·佩奇之间的差异：艾米体现的是金星与海王星的能量，那种蓝调爵士风格的演唱方式；而吉米·佩奇则更偏向于充满火星特质的强劲元素。

Look at the difference there in terms of Amy Winehouse had it was more of a Venus Neptune energy that bluesy sort of jazzy singing style whereas you have Jimmy Page as more of a hard driving Martian sort of element there.

我认为可以把这些双星或三星停驻点看作是它们影响的融合。

I think you can look at those double or triple stations as blending their influences.

是的。

Yeah.

这是艾米·怀恩豪斯的星盘。

Here's Amy Winehouse's chart.

她上升星座是双子座，金星位于狮子座23度，并在她的星盘中于狮子座23度直接运行。

She has Gemini rising and she has Venus at 23 Leo and it's stationing direct at 23 Leo in her chart.

另一个行星是什么？

What was the other planet?

海王星？

Neptune?

海王星。

Neptune.

我的眼镜在哪？

Where are my glasses here?

海王星位于射手座26度，再过六天就要在那里准静止了。

Neptune's at 26 Sag and it's just six days from stationing there.

所以金星实际上与海王星相距不到三度，形成三分相。

So Venus is actually within three degrees of a trine with Neptune.

对。

Right.

所以无论从哪个角度看，这都是一种非常强烈的海王星与金星能量。

So that's a really strong Neptune Venus energy no matter how you slice it.

对。

Right.

是的，这很有趣。

Yeah, that's interesting.

好吧，这相当不错。

Okay, so that's pretty good.

这实际上可能引出另一个我想讨论的话题，你曾在一篇文章中提到过，我昨晚读到了，那就是你在早期研究星盘解读时就发现非常重要的一点——关注星盘中位置最高的行星，对吧？

That actually might bring us to another topic I wanted to touch on that you mentioned in an article of yours that I was reading last night, is one of the things that you think is important and you found to be important in chart interpretation very early in your studies was looking at the most elevated planet in a chart, right?

对。

Yeah.

我想这在《星门》这篇论文里提到过。

And I think this is in an essay in Star Gates.

是的。

Yeah.

同样，没有任何单一因素能定义整个星盘，但你经常会发现，一个人在某种程度上是由其星盘中位置最高的行星所定义的。

Again, there's no one thing that defines a whole chart, but it is uncanny how often you will see a person defined to a certain extent by the planet that's highest in their chart.

是的。

Yeah.

你有个有趣的时间校正故事，因为你的书中——我非常喜爱你的书和文章——充满了各种幽默的轶事，讲述你多年来试图向不同名人获取出生时间的经历，我觉得这些故事既有趣又令人感同身受，尤其是你成功或失败地向一些人索要出生时间的经过。

You have a funny rectification story because you actually in your books, which I really enjoy and your essays have a lot of funny anecdotes about trying to get birth times from different celebrities over the years, which I thought was really funny and relatable hearing some of the people you either successfully or unsuccessfully asked for their birth times.

对。

Yes.

我曾经给艾萨克·阿西莫夫打过电话，当时他的名字还在曼哈顿电话簿上，因为我想知道他的出生时间。

Like I called up Isaac Asimov when his name was still in the Manhattan directory because I wanted to know his birth time.

他接了电话，那是在70年代。

And he picked up the phone and this is in the 70s.

顺便说一句，没过多久他就把自己的名字从公共电话簿里撤掉了。

Then he By the way, it wasn't long after that that he took his name out of the public directory.

是的，从你写的来看，他似乎对这个话题不太感兴趣。

Yeah, he didn't sound super interested in the topic from what you wrote.

不，我试图和他聊这个话题，那是错误的。

No, I tried engaging him in a talk about it which was a mistake.

但他还是很友善的，毕竟我打断了他写他的第一百本书。

But he was very nice considering that I was interrupting him from writing his millionth book.

还有另一位科幻作家对这个话题更友好，他的一部电影最近刚上映。

There was another science fiction writer that was actually more favorable to it who's actually a movie of his just came Frank out last

赫伯特，是的。

Herbert, yeah.

《沙丘》系列的作者。

Author of the Dune series.

对。

Right.

我曾去芝加哥市中心参加他的签售会，和他聊了很长时间。

And I went to a book signing downtown in Chicago and spoke to him for quite some time.

他说他妻子是个狂热的占星爱好者，为他做过星盘，还告诉了我他的出生时间。

He said his wife was an avid astrologer and did his chart and all this and he gave me his birth time.

关于阿西莫夫，还有另一个有趣的点：他连自己出生的日期都不知道，更不用说具体时间了，因为他提到自己是在俄罗斯长大的，那时候记录并不完善。

And one other point though about Asimov which is interesting, he didn't know the day he was born let alone the time he was born because he said, was raised in Russia and we didn't keep good records back then.

当你处理某些国家在特定历史时期人物的星盘时，有时甚至连出生日期都难以确认，更别提出生时间了。

When you're dealing with charts of people from some countries at certain times in history, it's very hard sometimes to get even the date of birth, let alone the time.

是的。

Yeah.

这真的很令人沮丧，但你提到的赫伯特——弗兰克·赫伯特·沃克，你得到的出生时间，和现在astro.com上显示的七点对得上吗？不对。

Was the Which is really frustrating, but was the Herbert Frank Herbert Walker, the time you got, is it the same that's on astro.com now which is like seven No.

30分。

30

有出入。

It's off.

我记得他给我的是7月18日。

It was I think 07/18 is what he gave me.

哦，有意思。

Oh, interesting.

所以 astro.com 上的时间有点不准。

So the time is off a little bit on the astro.com time.

你自己去理解吧。

Make of that what you will.

这让我想起有一次我问过巴克敏斯特·富勒他的出生时间，这一点我至今仍不明白其意义。

It reminds that there was the time that I asked and this is I still don't know what to make of this, but I once asked Buckminster Fuller for his birth time.

他的回答非常有趣。

And he had a very interesting response.

他沉默了很久，然后说：我一直后悔没有问过我母亲这件事。

He paused a long time and he said, I always regretted never asking my mother that.

后来有人在 Facebook 上提醒我，如果去 astro.com 查看，上面有他的出生时间。

And then someone pointed out to me on Facebook how if you go to astro.com, they have his birth time.

我认为那里的准确度评级是最低的 A 类。

And I think it's an A category accuracy on the lowest rodent rating.

所以我不知道到底发生了什么。

So I don't know what happened.

也许有人在他去世后找到了，或者在我问他之后追踪到了。

Maybe someone found it after he died or maybe after I asked him, tracked it down.

我不知道那里发生了什么。

I don't know what happened there.

是的，我得去看看源注释。

Yeah, I'll have to look at the source notes.

我的意思是，现在星象数据银行有些问题，有些网站发布虚假的出生时间，声称是从书籍、杂志和文章中引用的，说他们从这些文章中获得了精确时间。

I mean, there's some problems right now with Astro Data Bank and certain things of there's some websites that are putting out fake times that they're citing books and magazines and articles and saying they got an exact time from this article.

但当数据研究者去查阅那些书籍时，却找不到任何时间记录。

But then when data researchers look up those books, they're not finding any times there.

我遇到过几次这种情况，其中一些虚假时间已经进入了星象数据银行。

I've found this a few times and some of those times are finding their way into astro data banks.

这是一个我正在努力解决的问题，我希望社区能在不久的将来共同应对。

It's kind of an issue that I'm trying to figure out how to deal with and I'm hoping the community can deal with in the not too distant future.

但我们得看看这个时间的源注释怎么说。

But we'll have to look at that one and see what the source notes say.

你不是曾经写过一篇关于AstroTheme.com的文章，或者做过一期节目，讲过AstroTheme的问题吗？因为很多人都会去那个网站。

Didn't you write an article once or feature an episode on astrotheme.com and how the problems with astrotheme because a lot of people go to that.

是的，就是那个我发现一直在编造出生时间的网站。我认为任何人都不应该认真对待AstroTheme提供的任何出生时间，因为到目前为止，他们已经被多次揭发伪造出生时间。

Yeah, that's the one that I found that seemed to be inventing birth times and I don't think anybody should take any times from Astro Theme seriously because they've been caught fabricating birth times multiple times at this point.

但令人难过的是，我认为Astro Data Bank并没有认真对待这个问题，因为他们仍在接受来自AstroTheme的出生时间，这让我担心，这些错误的时间可能会被延续数代甚至数百年。

But what's sad is I don't think Astro Data Bank is taking this seriously because they're still accepting birth times from Astro theme, which I unfortunately am worried is going to lead to some false times being perpetuated for generations or for centuries.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

所以这是另一个独立的话题。

So that's a whole separate side topic.

还有没有其他名人，你成功获取了他们的出生时间，或者你曾向他们索要过出生时间？

Are there any other famous people that you successfully got birth times from or that you asked for their birth time?

是的。

Yeah.

帕蒂·史密斯，但我发现她的生日是12月31日，我想，时间我记不清了。

Patty Smith, but I discovered that she was already It was December 31, I think, and I forget the time.

但她对此非常友善。

But she was very nice about it.

天啊，我没能拿到鲍勃·迪伦的出生时间。

Golly, I couldn't get Bob Dylan.

于是我给鲍勃·迪伦在明尼苏达的母亲打了电话，她不记得确切的时间。

So I called Bob Dylan's mother in Minnesota and she didn't remember the exact time.

我不会说出那位占星师的名字，但有一位著名的占星师在70年代写过一本书。

I won't say the name of the astrologer, but there was a well known astrologer who wrote a book in the '70s.

他校正过迪伦的星盘，认为他出生在黎明后不久，但我觉得这不对劲。

He had rectified Dylan's chart and had him as being born a little after dawn and that didn't feel right me.

我直觉地觉得，这又回到了

I intuitive, Oh, this gets back to

那实际上是提升行星的起点。

the That most was actually the starting point for the elevated planet.

所以这个背景发生在六十年代，迪伦当时非常出名。

So the setup for that was in the sixties, Dylan was huge.

他是一位极具影响力的音乐人，人人都想知道他的出生时间，但当时并没有确切的出生时间，还为此存在争议。

He was a huge musician and everybody wanted to know his birth time, but there was no birth time and there was actually a debate about it.

有些人根据校正认为他出生在日出后不久，但那感觉不对劲。

Some people were saying that he was born just after sunrise based on rectification, but that didn't sit right with you.

我有一种直觉，这是一种直觉上的感悟，有时候你确实会对某些事情有这种直觉的触动。

I had a feeling it was an intuitive hunch and sometimes you do have these intuitive hits on something.

我觉得他的星图中海王星是最高行星。

Felt like he had Neptune as the highest planet in his chart.

结果，我打电话给了他母亲。

Lo and behold, I called up his mother.

我花了一个月时间，通过拨打明尼苏达州希宾地区所有姓齐默尔曼的人的电话，终于找到了她，和她聊了大约二十分钟，她人非常好。

It took me a month to track it down by calling all the Zimmermans in Minnesota that I could find around Hibbing spoke to her for about twenty minutes, she was very nice.

她说：我不记得确切的时间，但应该是晚上某个时候，这很有帮助，因为我知道至少不是早上或下午。

And she said, I don't remember the exact time, but it was sometime in the evening, which helped because I knew at least it wasn't morning or afternoon.

然后，里克·塔纳斯，我想，认识迪伦的前妻莎拉，他从出生证明上找到了确切的时间，确实显示海王星是最高行星。

And then Rick Tarnas, I guess, knew Dylan's ex wife, Sarah, and he had came up with the exact time off of a birth certificate and it did have Neptune as the highest planet.

你会发现，很多音乐家的星盘中海王星都处于高位。

And you see Neptune high on the charts of a lot of people that are musicians.

我觉得吉米·亨德里克斯的星盘中海王星也在高位。

I think Jimi Hendrix had Neptune high.

正如我所说，你经常在传教士、宗教人物、神秘主义者、音乐家、艺术家等人的星盘中看到海王星。

Like I said, Neptune you often see in the charts of preachers or religious figures or mystics, musicians, artists, etcetera.

所以是的。

So yeah.

这是根据那份出生证明时间绘制的鲍勃·迪伦星盘，显示他上升度为射手座20度，海王星位于处女座24度，落在第九宫或第十整宫，与北交点（处女座29度）相合。

Here's Bob Dylan's chart based on that birth certificate time and it gives him 20 degrees of Sagittarius rising and Neptune at 24 degrees of Virgo in the ninth quadrant house or the tenth whole sign house conjunct to the north node at 29 Virgo.

而这是最接近中天度数的行星，中天位于天秤座17度。

And that is the closest planet to the degree of the Midheaven which is at 17 degrees of Libra.

所以对你来说，当我读你的文章并思考这个问题时，我产生了一个有趣的问题。

And so for you, when I was reading your article and thinking about this, it brought up an interesting question for me.

实际上，其中一件事让我想到的是，我正在阅读时吃着零食，突然你用我的名字作为例子

Actually, one of the things it brought up for me is I was reading through and I was eating a snack and then suddenly you used my name as an example of

是的。

Yes.

你

You're

对。

right.

是的。

Yes.

我当时差点被吃的东西噎住，因为你突然说：著名占星师罗布·汉德和克里斯·布伦南的天王星是他们星盘中位置最高的行星，与中天相合。

I literally almost choked on what I was eating at that time because you were like, And famous astrologers Rob Hand and Chris Brennan have Uranus as their most elevated planet conjunct the Midheaven.

那是我第一次在印刷品中意外看到自己的名字，感到非常惊讶。

And that was one of the first times I think I've read my name accidentally in print and was surprised.

恭喜。

Congratulations.

所以对你来说，你对‘最上升行星’的定义是，基本上是指在星盘中与中天最接近合相的行星，对吧？

So for you, the way that you define that though, the most elevated planet is you say it's the planet that is the closest to a conjunction with the Midheaven in the chart basically, right?

是的。

Yeah.

不过我认为，即使它不是最高的行星，也会产生影响。

Although I think it exerts an influence even if it isn't the highest planet.

例如，我的天王星位于第十宫。

For example, I have Uranus in the tenth house.

它并不是星盘中位置最高的行星。

It's not the highest planet in the chart.

为了明确一下，因为否则我会在这里展示你的星盘，但你更不愿意展示，对吧？

Just for the record because otherwise I show your chart here, but you prefer not to show it, right?

对。

Yes.

我们就不深入讨论这个了。

We won't go into that.

我只是想说明一下，我到现在还没展示你的星盘。

I just wanted to say for the record, I'm forgetting to show the chart at this point.

对。

Right.

我的天王星位置很高，所以很明显我是占星师，我倾向于选择更独立的职业之类的方向。

I have Uranus high and so clearly I'm an astrologer and I've leaned towards more independent professions and that sort of thing.

是的，星盘中位置最高的行星确实非常重要，尤其是当它处于特定位置时。

Yeah, the highest planet in the chart is really important and especially if it is.

比如，你看看那些天王星位置很高的人，像女神卡卡、猫王，还有有趣的是迪克·切尼，他虽然不是自由派，但在自己政党中却是个独行侠；还有九寸钉乐队的特伦特·雷诺等等。

Well, like you take for example, some of the people that have Uranus high is Lady Gaga, Elvis Presley, Dick Cheney curiously enough who was not liberal but he was a lone wolf in terms of his own party Trent Reznor of Nine Inch Nails and so on and so forth.

当你开始研究这些位置较高的行星时，会发现很多有趣的现象。

It's really curious what you find out when you start looking at those elevated planets.

是的，我正在调出你刚才提到的几个例子。

Yeah, I'm just pulling up some of the different ones that you're mentioning right now.

所以，我想你对迪伦所表达的观点之一是，它不一定非得在中天，只要是最接近图表顶部的行星，或者最接近……

So, I guess one of the points then that you're making with Dylan though is that it doesn't necessarily have to be on the Midheaven, it just has to be the planet that is essentially closest to the top of the chart or closest Mick to the degree of the

贾格尔的火星并不算很高，但却是图表中位置最高的行星。

Jagger has his Mars, it isn't that high, but it is the highest planet in the chart.

我认为它在第十二宫左右。

I think it's in the twelfth or something.

因此，他的公众形象中带有一种火星特质，那种充满驱动力的风格。

And so his emphasis, there's a Martian quality to his public persona you might say, that hard driving.

他并不是唱抒情歌的歌手，尽管他写过几首。

He's not a singer of ballads even though he's written a few.

另一个例子，伊基·波普的火星据我所知是位置最高的行星。

Another one, Iggy Pop has Mars as the highest planet I believe.

是

Are

我们来看看米克·贾格尔。

we Here's looking at Mick Jagger.

他音频中的情况是这样的

He has for the audio

哦，比我想象的还要高。

Oh, is higher than I thought.

我之前的出生时间不一样。

I had a different birth time.

好的。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

实际上我不是。现在是早上6点30分，我没有查过原始资料，但对于音频听众来说，他的上升点位于狮子座4度，中天位于白羊座11度，而他的火星是距离中天最近的行星，位于金牛座12度。

And I'm actually not So this is 06:30AM and I didn't look at the source, but it's So the Ascendant for the audio listeners is at four degrees of Leo and his Midheaven is at 11 Aries and his Mars is the closest planet to that Midheaven and it's over at twelve degrees of Taurus.

对。

Yeah.

有趣的是，他在成为狂野的摇滚明星之前，原本打算攻读经济学学位。

And it's curious too because he was going for a degree in economics in school before he became a wild rock star.

好的。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这给我带来了一个问题，因为尽管我会关注中天的度数，但我通常是在整宫制框架下进行解读的。

I mean, raised an issue for me because even though I do pay attention to the degree of the Midheaven, I'm otherwise placing that in a whole sign house framework.

对我来说，很难判断哪个行星是最高的，因为我的所有行星都在星盘的上半部分，因此有好几个候选者。

And it's hard for me to sort through what the most elevated planet is because all of my planets are in the top half of the chart and so you have a number of different contenders.

但天王星确实是最近的行星，因为我的上升度数是17度水瓶座，中天度数是5度射手座，而天王星位于11度射手座。

But Uranus is definitely the closest planet because my rising degree is 17 Aquarius, my midheaven degree is five Sagittarius, and Uranus is at 11 Sagittarius.

所以，如果你根据象限中天的度数来定义，那么天王星就是最角力或海拔最高的行星。

So if you're defining that based on the degree of the quadrant midheaven, then Uranus is the most angular or highest planet in elevation.

而且从防御性的角度来说，如果有人主张这个方向，那正是在天王星经过我上升度数17度水瓶座时，我真正发现了占星学并成为了一名占星师。

And in defensive, if one was going to argue that direction as being the one, it was when Uranus passed over the degree of my Ascendant in '17 Aquarius that I actually discovered astrology and became an astrologer.

但如果你谈论的是，比如说，等宫制的中天——它总是与上升度数相隔90度，那就是从17度水瓶座到17度天蝎座，那样的话，土星就成了海拔最高的行星。

But then you also If you're talking about, for example, let's say the equal house Midheaven, is always 90 degrees from the degree of the Ascendant, that would be 17 Aquarius to 17 Scorpio, which would make Saturn the most elevated planet.

有些人听播客时可能会认为，我在公众面前更像一个土星型人物，而不是天王星型。

Think some people that listen to the podcast might argue that I'm more of a Saturnian type figure publicly rather than a Uranian one.

不过，我不知道，这可能要看情况。

Although, I don't know, I guess it depends.

我对星座系统或恒星制与回归制这类问题并不固执己见。

Well, I'm not dogmatic about things like house systems or sidereal versus tropical.

我倾向于采取包容的态度。

I tend to live and let live attitude.

我认为不同的系统在其自身的参照框架内都有其合理性，就像欧几里得几何并不否定黎曼几何一样。

I think that different systems can have validity in their own frame of reference just like Euclidean geometry doesn't negate Rheinmannian geometry and so on.

因此，例如，你确实拥有一个非常独立且以技术为导向的职业生涯，这与天王星的位置相符。

So there are ways in which, for example, you've had a very independent career and a technologically oriented one with the Uranus there.

所以，我完全不否定全宫制或等宫制对这一点的强调。

So I don't in any way dismiss the whole sign or equal house emphasis on it.

我认为它们可以共存，这只是我个人的看法。

I think that it's possible for them to coexist and that's just my personal opinion.

是的，我同意。

Yeah, I agree.

我只是在脑子里梳理了一下，因为有一段时间没怎么考虑过最高度行星这个技巧了，我一直在权衡这两种观点，并试图通过自己的星盘来理解，然后将这种理解推广到他人身上，同时看到了两个方面的可能性。

I was just working it through in my head because I hadn't thought about the most elevated planet very much as a technique in a while, I was seeing both sides of that and trying to come to some understanding through my own chart, which I could then universalize in others and was seeing both sides.

所以我认为，人们可以尝试探索一下 quadrant 中天和等分宫中天之间的区别，这也是关于宫位系统持续对话的一部分。

So I think that might be an interesting thing for people to play with and work out in terms of the difference between the quadrant Midheaven and the equal house Midheaven part of the continuing dialogue also over house systems.

这也可以成为人们尝试调和整宫制、等分宫制和 quadrant 宫位体系之间差异的一个切入点。

And that could be an access point for people trying to figure out how to reconcile the whole sign and equal and quadrant house frameworks for example.

我非常好奇，如果人们自己尝试一下这个方法，会发现什么，比如在整宫制和普拉西杜斯制之间，是否真的有明确的差异——一种完全不适用，而另一种却很契合。

I'd be very curious to know if people decide to experiment with this on their own, what they find in terms of if it's really clear cut the difference between let's say whole sign house system versus Placidus for instance, where the one doesn't seem to fit at all and the other does.

我很想听听大家的反馈，看看他们发现了什么。

That'd be curious to get feedback on in terms of what people find.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，两种体系其实有重叠的适用方式。

I mean, see overlapping ways in which both work.

如果能找出每种体系适用的场景，那就很好了，至少可以明确整体星座位置与 quadrant 宫位各自传达的信息，或者它们其实是一样的。

It would just be nice to Especially if you could come up with, is there a context in which each works where you could at least contextualize what a whole sign placement is telling you versus what a quadrant house placement or are they just the same.

去年我做诺埃尔·蒂尔那期节目时，有一件事特别让我好奇，也觉得很有意思：我读到一篇对他的采访，他说他刚接触占星学时，是在70年代看一档访谈节目。

One of the ones that was really curious when I did the Noel Till episode last year that I thought was really interesting and compelling was I was reading an interview with him and he told a story about how when he first discovered astrology, he was watching in the '70s an interview show.

那节目有点像《今夜秀》之类的，有一位占星师上节目接受了采访。

It was like a Tonight Show or something like that, and an astrologer came on and did an interview.

他说那位占星师表现得并不出色，但他能感觉到占星学里确实有些东西。

He said the astrologer didn't do a very good job, but he could see that there was something there to astrology.

他转头对妻子说：我要写一堆关于占星学的书，还要赚一百万美元。

He turned to his wife and he said, I'm going to write a bunch of books about astrology and I'm going make a million dollars.

而有趣的是，他的出生图显示上升星座是巨蟹座，上升的守护星是月亮，这颗月亮落在第二宫（整体星座宫位系统中的财务宫），但在 quadrant 宫位系统中却落在第三宫。

And what's really interesting about his birth chart is he has Cancer rising and the ruler of his Ascendant is the Moon and it's placed in the second whole sign house of finances and money, but it's in the third house in quadrant houses.

诺埃尔·蒂尔当然成为了二十世纪末和二十一世纪初最多产的占星作家之一，并且仅凭这一点就获得了丰厚的经济回报。

And Noel Tyl of course did become one of the most prolific authors of the late twentieth century and early twenty first century and was successful financially just from that.

这是个很好的观点。

That's a good point.

是的

Yeah.

对

Yeah.

不过，我只是想说，你提到的这种行星技巧，或许可以成为理解不同体系差异的另一个切入点。

Anyway, but I was just saying that maybe this planet technique that you're talking about here could be another access point for trying to understand what the different systems are doing.

是的

Yeah.

对

Yeah.

这是个很好的观点。

That's a great point.

我认为，被提升的行星在某种程度上代表了一种你所向往的能量。

I think too, the elevated planet is to some extent represents an energy you aspire towards.

比如，一个以水星为最高行星的人——就像我在书中举过的例子，一个水星位于水瓶座的年轻个体。

So a person that let's say has Mercury as the highest planet, like the one example I used I think in the book, a young person that had Mercury in Aquarius as the highest planet in the chart.

他们卧室墙上贴的不是《花花公子》兔女郎的海报，而是卡尔·萨根的照片，那种科学未来的气质。

Instead of having a Playboy Bunny picture poster on their bedroom wall, they had Carl Sagan, that scientific futuristic quality.

这个人渴望成为一名科学家，成为科学思想或技术的创新者。

This person was aspiring to kind of be a scientist, to be a kind of an innovator of scientific ideas or technologies.

所以，对于这一点，有很多不同的解读方式。

So again, there's many ways to interpret that.

这通常是你们最向公众展现的部分。

It's often the part of you that is most visible to the public.

我曾有一位住在图森的客户，他的土星位于天蝎座第一宫，上升星座也是天蝎座，而木星位于狮子座，处于星盘顶端，是最高的行星。

So I had this one client in Tucson who had Saturn in Scorpio in the first house, Scorpio rising and Jupiter in Leo on the top of the chart, the highest planet.

因此，这位客户向外界展现的形象非常张扬。

And so the image that this client represented to the world was this flamboyant.

他留着萨尔瓦多·达利式的胡子。

He had a Salvador Dali mustache.

他性格外向、非常张扬，但私下里却有着深刻的土星天蝎座般的强烈特质。

He was very flamboyant and very outgoing, but privately there was this deep sort of Saturn Scorpio intensity.

我不想再多说了。

I don't want to say much more than that.

但公众形象——我相信这是因为狮子座与天蝎座的冲突，实际上在这两者之间存在一种张力：一方面是外向、乐观的公众形象，另一方面是土星天蝎座那种深藏的、略带创伤的第一宫能量。

But the public image, and I believe they were square because it was Leo to Scorpio, it was actually kind of a conflict between the two, between that exuberant happy go lucky public image and that Saturn Scorpio somewhat traumatized first house energy.

再次强调，第一宫与第十宫的对比，我们正在讨论的第十宫概念有多种解读方式。

Again, the first house versus the tenth, there's different ways to interpret this tenth house thing that we're talking about.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

我刚才翻看笔记时想到一个问题，之前没来得及提：在关于新行星的讨论中，占星界有时会争论一个观点，有人持极端立场，那就是：行星在被发现之前，是否就已经产生占星影响？

One of the questions I was just looking at my notes that I meant to mention in the earlier segment about new planets is one of the questions that sometimes comes up that's debated in the astrological community that people can take extreme positions on is do planets exert an astrological influence even before they're discovered?

因为我们一开始就说，所有占星师都同意，当一颗行星被发现时，世界范围内总会发生一些反映该行星特质的事件。

Because one of the things we of course started talking about very early on is how I think all astrologers agree that when a planet is discovered, there are some things that happen in mundane astrology in the world at that time that reflect the nature of that planet.

但随之而来的问题是：这种影响是否只从被发现时才开始，还是在那之前就已经以某种方式在发挥作用？

But then there's sometimes a question then of does it only start then or is it already operating prior to that time in some ways?

嗯，这正是我在写作时有些不同意见的地方。

Well, this is where I had a bit of a disagreement in writing.

我从未和他谈过。

I've never talked to him.

但杰弗里·科尼利厄斯曾提出，没有占星师就没有占星术，他把占星术比作一种占卜过程，类似于水晶球占卜或茶叶占卜，通过直觉捕捉信息。

But with Geoffrey Cornelius who made the comment that there is no astrology without astrologers and he likens astrology to a divinatory sort of process whereby you intuitively pick up on things almost like crystal ball reading or tea leaf reading.

他似乎暗示这是一种更偏向于直觉冲击的体验。

It's more of a roar shock, he seems to be implying.

然而，我不认同这种观点，原因有很多，其中最显著的一点是：早在占星师发现天王星、海王星或冥王星之前，这些行星的影响就已经体现在世界事务中了。

And yet, the reason why I don't buy that for one of several reasons, the most dramatic one is that long before astrologers knew about Uranus, Neptune or Pluto, you see their influence in world affairs.

因此，在我看来，里克·塔纳塞的《宇宙与灵魂》一书中，我最喜欢的一章是他讨论公元前六世纪外三颗行星三次合相的那段，当时世界发生了巨大变革，各种主要宗教开始兴起。

So to me, my favorite chapter in Rick Tarnasse's book, Cosmos and Psyche, is the one where he talks about the triple conjunction of the outer three planets in the sixth century BC when there was all this major change in the world, the start of the actual religions and this sort of thing.

但那时，这三颗行星都尚未被发现。

And yet none of those three planets were discovered yet.

或者以18世纪90年代的法国大革命为例，大多数占星师将其归因于天王星与冥王星的对冲。

Or you take for example the French Revolution in the 1790s, which most astrologers chalk up to the Uranus opposed Pluto.

现在天王星是在上一个十年被发现的，但冥王星直到1930年才被发现。

Now Uranus was discovered in the previous decade, but Pluto wasn't discovered till 1930.

所以，如果冥王星真的直到被正式发现后才产生影响，那该如何解释历史上那些可证实的外行星影响呢？

So if indeed Pluto didn't exert an influence till it was formally discovered, then how do you explain the influence of the outer planets through history which is demonstrable?

而且我认为，这种影响确实变得更加明显了。

And I do think it becomes more palpable.

我认为，当这些行星被发现时，它们确实会带来更直接的影响，但在我看来，即使在被发现之前很久，它们也一直存在于背景之中。

I do think that when those planets are discovered that they take on more of an immediate sort of impact, but they're still there in the background even long before they're discovered in my opinion.

是的，我同意。

Yeah, I agree.

这正是我总是推荐科尼利厄斯这本书的原因之一，也是我最喜爱的占星学著作之一，尤其是关于占星哲学的部分，因为我觉得他很好地论证了占星是通过象征发挥作用的，并且他的占星预言观点确实有其道理。

That's one of the areas where I think I always recommend Cornelius' book and it's one of my favorite books on astrology especially the philosophy of astrology because I think he really does a good job of arguing that astrology does work through symbolism and that there is something to his argument about astrology's divination.

但我有时觉得，他在论证不存在任何客观发生的占星现象时，观点走得太远了。

But I sometimes feel like he takes it too far than in arguing that there is no objective astrology that's actually occurring out there.

我认为，当你研究历史占星和世俗占星时，你会发现这种观点在客观上是错误的，因为确实存在与人类事件和世界历史同步运作的占星周期。

I think when you study historical astrology and mundane astrology, you can see that that's kind of objectively false just because there are astrological cycles that do operate in concert with human events and world history.

我最喜欢的一个是天王星与海王星的周期，我注意到不知为何，这个周期总与历史上重大的复兴和翻译项目相吻合。

One of my favorite ones is the Uranus Neptune cycle, which I noticed for some reason coincide with major revivals and translation projects down through history.

大约每一百七十年，占星师们就会对复兴古老的占星形式产生极大热情，并开始翻译古籍。

About every hundred and seventy years, astrologers get really excited about reviving old forms of astrology and they start translating texts.

然后，他们重新发现的这种古老占星形式会与当代占星体系融合，形成一种新的综合体系，持续数个世纪，直到下一次合相出现。

Then whatever that old form of astrology is that they recover gets merged with whatever the contemporary form of astrology is and creates a new synthesis that lasts for a couple of centuries until the next conjunction.

在上一次合相的1992年和1993年，这种情况再次发生，那时‘远见计划’成立了。

And this happened in 1992 and 1993 into the last conjunction and that's when Project Hindsight was formed.

但据我所见，这个周期可以追溯到两千到三千年以前。

But that cycle goes back for two thousand or three thousand years from what I've seen.

没错。

Right.

这并不是说占星术没有直觉和预言的层面，因为大多数占星师都经历过科尼利厄斯所描述的那种体验。

And it's not that there isn't a divinatory intuitive aspect to astrology because most astrologers have had the experience that Cornelius writes about.

当你为错误的出生时间、甚至错误的年份排盘，或者写错信息时，就会有这样的经历。

You have a chart done for the wrong birth time or even the wrong year, you might write it in wrong.

但结果还是对的，因为你触及到了某种东西。

And yet it still comes out right because you're tapping into something.

但有时候这种方法并不奏效，比如当怀疑者挑战杰弗里·阿姆斯特朗时，YouTube上他们给了他两个不同对象的错误星盘，结果对不上。

But there are times when that doesn't work like when the skeptics challenged Jeffrey Armstrong it's on YouTube where they gave the wrong charts that he had calculated for two different subjects and they didn't fit.

人们说这些星盘对不上，然后他们调换了星盘，又说，哦，这个对上了。

The people said these don't fit and then they switched the charts and they said, Oh, that one fits.

他们试图在杰弗里身上耍花招。

They were trying to pull a fast one on Jeffrey.

结果发现，直到他们调对了，那些星盘才变成正确的。

And it turned out that they weren't the right charts until they were the right charts.

直觉层面没有被考虑进去。

The intuitive aspect didn't factor in.

所以它确实包含直觉的成分。

So there are intuitive aspects to it.

我们都经历过这些，但这并不能解释全部。

We've all had those experiences, but that doesn't explain all of it.

是的。

Yeah.

我记得罗布·汉斯在回应科尼利厄斯的论点时提到过一件事，他说他从未遇到过正确的星盘不如错误星盘有效的情况。

Well, one of the things I remember Rob Hans saying about that in response to Cornelius' argument is that he's never had an instance where the right chart didn't work better than the wrong chart.

正确的星盘总是更具说服力，这也是为什么在某些情况下可以尝试或进行星盘校正的原因之一——因为确实存在一个与个人出生时刻完全吻合的出生星盘，它真实地反映了他们生命中的重大事件和人生本质，因此即使非常困难和复杂，有时我们仍能反向推导出来。

The right chart always ends up being more compelling and that's one of the reasons why rectification, for example, can even be attempted or done in some instances because there is actually birth chart that existed out there that matches the exact moment of the person's birth and that does actually reflect significant events in their life and the nature of their life so that you can reverse engineer it sometimes even if it's incredibly difficult and tricky.

这是个很好的观点。

That's a great point.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

All right.

最后我想提一下，你写过一篇关于通过回顾过往行运来预测未来的文章，这是一种在占星传统中非常重要但有时被忽视或未被充分阐述的技术。

So one last thing I want to mention is you have an article about looking at past transits to anticipate the future, and that's a really major but sometimes overlooked or at least not well articulated technique in the astrological tradition.

这种技术的基础是什么？你会对一位刚入门的学生如何解释这种方法的原理，以及他们应该如何将其作为占星学的一个重要工具来使用呢？

What is the basis of that or what would you say to somebody that was a new student about how that works and how they should use that as a feature of astrology?

是的，这非常重要，因为就在前几天，确切地说是昨天，我给一位客户做了一次占星解读，发现土星即将与火星相合。

Yeah, that's really important because the other day, yesterday in fact, I had a reading with the client where I saw that Saturn was about to cross Mars.

他命盘中原本有火星刑克天王星，而土星正逐渐靠近并与水瓶座的火星形成合相。

He natally had a Mars square Uranus and Saturn was coming along to conjunct the Mars in Aquarius.

于是我查了上一次这个相位活跃的时候发生了什么。

And so I looked up the last time that aspect had fired.

于是我问他：1992年你经历了什么？

And I said, What happened for you in 1992?

他说那年他遭遇了一场严重的车祸，但奇迹般地没有受伤。

And he said that he had a bad car accident, but he walked away unscathed.

事故很严重，但没那么糟糕。

It was bad, but not so bad.

他的命盘中 somehow 有个幸运的因素——强大的木星，所以没有让他受伤。

Somehow he had a lucky thing in his chart, a strong Jupiter, so it didn't hurt him.

他没有任何外伤。

He didn't have any injuries.

因此，这让我对即将到来的合相有了一个方向，因为那时合相还未发生。

So it gave me a sense of what to talk about with this upcoming conjunction because it hadn't happened yet.

所以当你回顾过去类似的情况时，无论是木星回归、土星过太阳，还是火星回归，通过观察这个人过去曾经历过的类似能量表现，你就能真正理解这种能量对他而言是如何显现的。

So when you look back to things when they've happened before, whether it's a Jupiter return or whether it's a Saturn crossing the Sun or a Mars return, you get a real sense of how that energy is manifesting for someone by looking at the past manifestations that happened for that person.

这对我来说是一种无价的工具。

It's been an invaluable tool for me.

它实际上极大地影响了我是否能准确判断一个人的情况，是完全正确还是完全错误。

It's actually made a huge difference in terms of whether I've been totally right or totally wrong with someone.

例如，土星与金星的相位就是一个很好的例子。

For example, Saturn Venus is a good example of that.

土星经过某人的金星，这可能是决定性的时刻——要么导致现有关系的破裂，要么促成关系的巩固，比如结婚。

Saturn crossing someone's Venus, now that can be make or break, that can be the dissolution of an existing relationship or that can be the solidifying like getting married.

所以你可以问对方：上一次你结婚时发生了什么？

So you ask the person what happened last time you got married.

我的意思是，如果他们足够年长，经历过土星经过金星的周期，那上一次发生这种情况时，发生了什么？

I mean, what happened the last time Saturn crossed the Venus if they're old enough to have experienced that.

然后你发现，哦，那时候我结婚了。

And you find out, well, I got married then.

然后你问他们：你现在结婚了吗？

And you ask them, Are you married now?

他们说：没有，但我正在考虑。

And they say, No, but I'm thinking of it.

于是你就大概能判断，他们很可能会以某种方式巩固这段关系，即使不是正式结婚。

And then you have a pretty good idea that they're probably going to solidify the commitment in some fashion even if it isn't literal marriage.

是的，这对大多数技术来说都至关重要，因为有很多技术是循环作用的，你会反复遇到相同或相似的星盘位置被激活，而星盘本身就像一个圆轮，每个行星都像一个风铃，当行运经过时，有时会击中同一个位置，发出相似的声音，或以不同的时间间隔发出相同的声音，比如木星的十二年周期、土星的三十年周期等等。

Yeah, that's really crucial for most techniques because there's many techniques that do work cyclically where you'll have repetitions of the same or similar placements getting activated and the chart itself, it's kind of like the chart itself is like round wheel and each of the planets is like a wind chime and the transits go around sometimes and then strike the same placement and make a similar sound or make the same sound in different increments whether it's a twelve year increment of Jupiter or a thirty year increment of Saturn or what have you.

但预测未来最重要的关键之一是，如果你想预测未来，就必须研究过去。

But then one of the to prediction, one of the most important keys to prediction is that if you want to predict the future then you need to study the past.

是的。

Yeah.

比如，一周或两周前，我有个客户，他的天王星正在合相星盘中的某个行星，而他年纪足够大，已经经历过这个相位的刑相和对冲相。

And so for example, I had a client a week or two ago that had Uranus conjuncting some planet in their chart and they were old enough that they had experienced the square and the opposition.

当你观察外行星，比如土星、天王星甚至海王星时，你会看到一种共性或连接线索——如果你回溯这个人生命早期这些行星的重要影响，通常会发现某种连续性。

And you'll see this commonality or connecting thread when you have an outer planet whether it's Saturn or Uranus or even Neptune where if you look to see the previous hits that the major hits of that planet earlier in the person's life, you'll often see a continuity.

例如，一个人在二十多岁末经历第一次土星回归，而在第二次土星回归时，总会有一些关联的事情发生。

So for instance, a person has their first Saturn return in their late 20s and then under their second Saturn return, there's going to be something connecting.

可能是他们退休了，而这份工作正是他们在29岁时开始的；也可能是建立了一段新的关系。

It might be that they're retiring after the job they started when they were 29 or it can be a new relationship.

他们离婚的对象，正是在第一次土星回归时结婚的人。

They got divorced from someone that they got married to under the first Saturn return.

像这样的模式非常有趣。

There's really interesting patterns like that.

事实上，这触及了你我之前刚开始讨论的一个话题——当客户来找你时，这一点对我来说很重要：你需要知道他们为什么来找你。

Fact, that touches on something that you and I were starting to get in into previously which is when a client comes to you, this is important for me anyway, where you want to know what they came to you for.

对。

Right.

你曾在一篇文章中提到，这是占星师最容易犯的七个常见错误之一，对吧？

You mentioned this as one of the seven most common mistakes that astrologers make I think in an article, right?