占星学中的太阳、月亮与上升星座

你一开始提到的一件事，我怕忘了，所以想赶紧说一下：你一开始就提到的一个建议，我觉得特别重要，就是关于承诺投入这个过程的部分。

One of the things you said at the beginning and before I forget it and get away from it, really liked as you mentioned really early on in the process as you give people some advice that I thought was actually really important where you had this section about committing to the process.

你之前简短提过这一点，但这里或许值得深入探讨一下：你在教人学习占星术时，给出了三条指导原则。

You mentioned it briefly earlier, but it's worth maybe drilling in on here, is that you give people three guidelines as they're learning astrology.

第一条是：我承诺绝不赋予自己当前对星盘的理解过多的权力。

And the first is you say one, I promise to never give my current understanding of my chart too much power.

第二条是：我承诺绝不低估星盘中蕴含的智慧。

And then two, you said I promise to never underestimate the wisdom that is woven into my chart.

第三条是：我承诺始终为学习、颠覆和重新学习留出空间。

And three, I promise to always leave room for learning, unlearning and relearning.

我觉得这部分非常重要，很高兴你在书中加入了这些内容。

And I thought that was such an important piece that I was glad that you included it in the book.

你为什么觉得这些原则在一开始就陈述出来如此重要？

Why do you feel like those pieces are important to state at the outset?

在写这本书之前，我之所以决定写这本书，是因为我花了这么多年在线上教人占星术。

Before I wrote the book and one of the reasons why I did write the book is I had spent so many years teaching people astrology online.

当你开始教授某样东西时，你也会开始意识到它存在的问题，或者它是如何被接受和看待的。

And so what happens when you begin teaching something is you also start to understand the problems with it, or how it's received or thought of.

因为我们谈论的是你生活的本质，谈论的是与你的命运相关的事物，当我们开始审视时，会引发巨大的恐惧。

And because we're talking about the nature of your life, and we're talking about something to do with perhaps your fate, so much fear is evoked in us when we start to look.

所以我希望在过程之初就提醒你：在智慧真正融入之前，你的头脑会以为自己已经懂得了一切。

And so I just wanted to start the process with the reminder that your mind is going to think that it knows everything before the wisdom has actually been able to even integrate.

然后要保持足够的谦逊，明白你永远都在学习，总会有新的方式去理解你的生活，无论是你的星盘如何影响你的生活，还是你的生活如何影响你的星盘。

And then to remain humble enough to know that you're always going to be learning, that there's always going to be a new way of understanding your life as it pertains to your astrology chart or your astrology chart as it pertains to your life.

任何关于你是谁、你有能力做什么，或者某个星座、征兆或星象对你意味着什么的局限性观念，都需要被质疑和审视。

And any kind of limited notion of who you are and what you're capable of or what a sign or omen or signal astrologically means for you, it needs to be questioned and scrutinized.

我认为我们需要不断这样做。

I think we need to continually do that.

就像我在产房里看着我的孩子时，我凭什么认为自己知道她的星盘意味着什么？

Like me in the delivery room with my child, like who am I to think that I know what her chart means?

这对这个新生命来说意味着什么？

That means for the life of this new human?

别把我的判断带进来。

Leave my judgment out of it.

让这个刚来到这个世界的小生命来告诉我这意味着什么。

It's up to that little human that just came in to show me what that means.

是的，当然。

Yeah, for sure.

这触及到一个我认为所有占星师最终都会意识到的点——只要你研究或实践占星足够长时间，它就会变得几乎是一种直觉。

It touches on a point that I think all astrologers know eventually once you've been studying it for long enough or practicing astrology, it becomes almost intuitive.

即，你对星盘中任何位置的理解都是暂时的。

Just the notion that every thing you think about a chart based on a placement is provisional.

你可能会根据占星理论或过去的经验观察，对某个位置的意义形成某种想法，但你始终需要留出一定的空间，去容纳事物可能以不同方式显现的情况——尤其是当我们讨论具有挑战性的星盘配置时，它们可能比你最初预期的更具建设性或更积极，因此人们不应被负面解读所束缚，认为它必须如此，或一定是 worst case scenario，而实际上，事物的显现往往有着完全不同的可能性范围。

And it's like you have an idea of what this means or what this should mean based on the theory of astrology or based on other empirical observations in the past, but you always have to leave open a certain amount of room for how things might manifest in a way that's different or when we're talking about challenging placements in a way that's more productive or more positive than you might initially anticipate in some way so that people shouldn't get hooked on negative interpretations of placements and think it has to be that or it has to be the worst case scenario where oftentimes there's like a whole different range of how things can manifest.

我认为，尤其是对我们这些阅读那些非常古老书籍的人来说，因为它们缺乏细腻性。

And I think especially for those of us that are reading these books that are really old, because they're not very nuanced.

它们对你的感受不够敏感。

They're not very sensitive to your feelings.

他们会说，这太糟糕了。

They're going be like, this is horrible.

会有强盗来。

Robbers are going to come.

你会被蝎子咬。

You're going to be bit by a scorpion.

你会早逝。

You're gonna die at an early age.

你的父母会怎样，你知道的，这非常强烈，但对理解‘这在现代生活中意味着什么’帮助不大。

Your parents will be you know, it's like it's very intense, and it's not very helpful in terms of being like, well, how would that translate to modern day?

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

这对我到底意味着什么？

What does that mean actually for me?

我大概短期内不会被一群狗追着跑吧，希望如此。

I'm probably not gonna be hunted by a pack of dogs anytime soon, hopefully.

我的意思是，现代的翻译可能是某种有趣的情况，比如你上推特，被一群不怎么好的人围攻，这正好符合象征意义。

I mean sometimes the modern translation is something funny like you go on Twitter and you get hounded by a pack of not great people and it fits the symbolism.

没错。

Exactly.

但你实际上也不会被撕成碎片。

But you're not literally torn to shreds anyways.

是的。

Yeah.

也许在隐喻层面上是这样。

Maybe feels like Metaphorically.

在隐喻层面上。

That Metaphorically.

好吧。

Okay.

我认为这非常重要，尤其是在讨论困难的星盘位置时，因为专业占星师往往对此习以为常，但我们可能会不自觉地内化对星盘位置的负面解读，而实际上并不需要像最初以为的那样紧紧抓住这些解读不放。

I think that's really important, especially when talking about difficult placements because that's just something professional astrologers take for granted, but something that maybe we can internalize negative interpretations of our chart placements that we don't need to necessarily hold onto as tightly as we might think at first.

是的，有些位置特别痛苦，它们象征着或固化了你对自己创伤的理解。

Yeah, and something that is really painful and symbolizes or crystallizes your understanding of your own trauma in your chart.

当我们随着年龄增长、逐渐疗愈，并花时间面对那些困难的事物时，记住这一点至关重要——我们与它们的关系也会随之改变。

It's so important to remember that as we age and as we heal and as we spend time with the things that are difficult, the nature of our relationship to it also changes.

我们童年时那些可怕的怪物，当我们学会正视并调整它们的大小时，它们并不会一直保持原来的样子。

And the big bad monsters of our childhood do not stay the same size when we focus on right sizing them.

因此，随着这种转变，星盘本身也在变化，那些曾经让我们恐惧、感觉如影随形的艰难星盘部分，也能从那种被扭曲的‘怪物’认知中解放出来，重新被赋予最有益的用途。

And so with that, the chart changes and the interpretation of that really difficult part in our chart that just like, you know, scares us or like we feel like it dogs us, that can be like liberated from that monster, like, you know, disfigured kind of understanding into something that feels like it has been repurposed for the best possible use.

对。

Right.

我非常喜欢这个说法。

I love that.

所以，这其中存在一种微妙的平衡：一方面，有时在早期看到星盘中的困难位置并产生共鸣，理解到‘哦，这其实可能具有疗愈作用’——

So there's some kind of delicate balance between because on the one hand, sometimes looking at your chart and seeing the difficult placements early on and then resonating with that and understanding like, Oh, that that's actually can be therapeutic.

如何在这一点与过度关注或对某些星盘位置采取宿命论态度之间找到平衡呢？毕竟这些位置可能以不同方式显现，或在某些方面得到改善，我们需要找到某种中间地带？

And somehow finding a balance between that versus overly focusing or adopting a fatalistic attitude about some placement that it can't manifest in different ways or can't get better in some ways that you want to find some sort of middle ground?

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得这始终像一个棱镜。

I feel like it's always a prism.

每个行星都是一个棱镜。

Each planet is a prism.

我们所说的行星之间的每个相位关系，也都像一个棱镜。

Each what we call aspect connection between the planets is a prism.

是的，当你以这种方式看待它时，它令人恐惧；但换一种方式看，你就会说，哦，这不一样了。

Yes, when you look at it like this way it's terrifying and then this way you're like, oh, that's different.

所以你可以保持它，就像一个万花筒。

So you can keep, it's like a kaleidoscope.

就像我仍然透过同一个万花筒观看，但它给了我这个配置的不同变化和版本，尽管其本质属性依然不变。

Like I'm still looking through the same kaleidoscope but it does give me different iterations and different versions of that configuration even though the qualities of it remain.

这说得通。

That makes sense.

好的，让我们退后一步。

All right, so let's zoom out.

到目前为止，我们已经讨论了很多关于上升星座以及一些天文特性。

We've talked a lot about the Ascendant and some of the astronomical properties at this point.

太阳和月亮在这其中扮演什么角色呢？

Where does the Sun and the Moon fit into all of this?

即使它们不是星盘中最个人化的点，它们仍然相当个人化且非常重要，尤其是在涉及我们的个性和特征时，对吧？

Even if they're not the most personal points in the chart, they're still pretty personal and pretty important, especially when it comes to our personality and characteristics, right?

是的。

Yeah.

不过我想说的是，当我们看到上升星座时，我们会得到上升星座的星座，并想知道那个星座的特质。

So I just want to say though, like when we see the Ascendant, we get the sign of the Ascendant and we want to know like what the qualities of that sign are.

那个星座的速度是什么？

What's the speed of that sign?

那个星座的本质是什么？

What's the nature of that sign?

那个星座会朝向什么方向？

What is that sign going to be oriented towards?

然后我们想看看第一宫中是否有其他行星影响着这个星座的表达方式。

And then we want to look to see if there's any other planets in the first house that are impacting the ways in which that sign is expressed.

接着我会去看主宰这个星座的行星，看看它位于何处。

And then I would go to the planet that rules that sign and see where that is going.

这仅仅是我的分析流程。

That's just like my process.

但接下来，如果我要去看太阳或月亮，我会想，太阳代表生命力。

But then if so what I wanna do after that, if I'm gonna look at if I'm gonna go to the sun or the moon, I wanna see well, the sun is the life force.

对吧？

Right?

如果你想想太阳系中的太阳，它对地球的影响，没有它，任何东西都无法生长。

If you think about the sun in the solar system, the sun's impact on the earth, nothing would grow without it.

它是生命明显的源泉，你知道，如果没有太阳，我们就不会存在。

It is an obvious generator of life and is, you know, if we didn't have the sun, we wouldn't be here.

情况会非常不同。

Would be very different.

会非常艰难。

It would be very hard.

在星盘中也是如此。

And so that is true in the chart.

德梅特拉经常谈到它与神圣思维或某种神圣的火花相关联。

And Demetra talks a lot about it being associated with the divine mind or like a divine kind of spark.

所以这是一种与神性有关的东西。

So something that is about divinity.

它关乎我们的灵魂。

It is about our spirit.

它关乎贯穿我们生命的那丝生机。

That is about the spark of life that moves through us.

也许这不是我们本身，而是所有有生命、有感知的生物都拥有的那种东西。

Maybe it's not us, but it's that thing that all animated, all sentient beings have.

它们拥有生命的火花，我们甚至可以把太阳看作是其中的一部分。

They have a spark of life and we could maybe even see the sun as part of that.

所以这构成了我们使命中非常重要的部分。

So it's like this big part of our purpose.

而月亮则是它的物质体现。

And then the moon is that the physical embodiment of it.

因此，我把第一宫看作是身体，月亮也是身体，是生命诞生的载体，身体承载着我们的情感模式。

So I see the first house as the body and also the moon as body, as the conception of life, of the body houses our emotional patterns.

它记录了我所经历的一切。

Takes stock of everything that ever happens to me.

我的身体会对这一切做出反应。

My body has a response to it.

这是一种记录的历史。

It's recorded history.

我的身体是我灵魂这一世的历史。

My body is the history of this incarnation of my soul.

因此，当我进行身体感知练习时，我实际上是在与月亮工作，如果我们从占星学的角度来理解的话。

And so I can do when I do somatic work, I'm working with the moon, if we wanna think about it, how it translates astrologically.

因为它关乎孕育，关乎生下你的人以及生下他们的人。

And because it's about conception, it's about like the person that birthed you and the person that birthed them.

这其中蕴含着一种近乎家谱般的理解。

And there's like this kind of understanding of almost genealogy through it.

所以，这是一种血脉传承的感觉——那些将你带到此处的人，你如何来到这里，这一切都被记录了下来。

So it's that feeling of a lineage of people that brought you here and how you got here and all of that is recorded.

没有身体，我的灵性、我的灵魂就无法实现其使命。

And without the body, my spirit, my soul can't live out its purpose.

因此，我们所说的光体属于与其余行星不同的类别，因为它们是如此明亮。

So the, what we call luminaries are of a different category than the rest of the planets because they are such bright lights.

当然，月亮有盈亏，这正是其神话、理解与特质的一部分。

Of course, the moon waxes and wanes, and that's all part of its myth and its understanding and signature.

但太阳在某种意义上也是如此。

But and the sun does in a sense too.

它也有自己的一套周期。

It has its own kind of cycles.

但如果我们回顾人类历史，在我们甚至还没有形成所谓占星术的这套体系之前，我们就已经通过太阳在一年中的运行轨迹，以及月亮在月相周期中的变化，来学习和测绘一切事物，这些让我们对时间、空间和季节有了深刻的理解。

But if we think about human history, before we even had this system of of what we would call astrology, we learned everything and had to map out most things in accordance with the journey of the sun through the solar kind of year and also the journey of the moon through the lunar cycle taught us so much about time and space and the seasons.

通过太阳和月亮这两者，通过我们对它们的观察和理解，我认为，我们大部分的宗教与灵性仪式、认知与意义都由此衍生出来。

And through those two bodies, through the sun and the moon and our witnessing of them, our understanding of them grows out, I think most of our religious and spiritual rituals, understandings, and meaning.

我认为，许多东西都可以追溯到这两颗光体。

And I think so much can be traced back to those two luminaries.

因此，它们在有些人所说的星盘中的‘国王与女王’，或两位至高统治者中脱颖而出，所有其他元素都围绕着它们组织起来。

And so they stand out in what some people say is like the king and queen or like the two sovereigns in the chart and everything kind of gets organized underneath them.

它们成为星盘中两个所谓‘派别’的领导者。

They become the leaders of two what we call sects in the chart.

所以，可以说是两支队伍，其他行星则被归入它们之下。

So, two teams, if you will, and there's other planets that get organized under them.

因此，这么多东西都源自这两个天体。

And so, so much comes from these two bodies.

所以我们总是要优先考虑它们。

And so we want to always prioritize them.

当然，它们因为有充分的理由而广为人知，但我们绝不能忽视上升点。

And of course, they've been popularized for good reason, but we just don't want to ever leave the Ascendant out.

是的，这太棒了。

Yeah, that's amazing.

我很高兴你用了‘光体’这个词，因为太阳和月亮被称为两大光体非常重要——它们是我们太阳系中仅有的两颗发光天体，也是夜空中最明亮的两个天体，尤其是白天的太阳和夜晚的月亮。

I'm glad you used the term luminaries because that's so important that the Sun and Moon are referred to as the two luminaries because they're the two bodies in our solar system that emit light and they're the two brightest celestial bodies in the sky, especially the Sun during the day and the Moon at night.

尤其是当太阳位于地平线以下、夜幕降临、月亮高悬时，比如我们在一片漆黑的森林中行走，月亮是否圆满、是否洒下光芒，会带来巨大差异——月亮圆满时，你能看清周围的东西；而月亮不在地平线上时，视线就困难得多。

Especially if it's, let's say, it's like a full the Sun is beneath the horizon, it's nighttime, the Moon is shining and is Let's say we're walking in a dark forest, there's a difference between if the Moon is full and it's shining light down so that you can actually see things in the dark versus if the Moon's not above the horizon and it's much harder to see.

这引出了占星师讨论光体时一个非常重要的核心观点：什么是光？理解光为我们提供了什么、它起什么作用，以及如何从象征意义上解读它。

And that brings up a really important core point for astrologers in talking about the luminaries, is just what is light and understanding what light provides to us and what it does and how that can be interpreted symbolically.

我最近看了一档播客，一位物理学家被问到这样一个问题：光是什么？

I was watching some podcasts recently with a physicist and he was presented with this question of like, what is light?

有趣的是，看到他努力试图给出光的定义，发现即使在某种程度上，光这个概念本身也如此神秘。

And it was funny actually seeing him talk about how struggling to come up with an actual definition and what a mysterious concept, even the concept of light is to a certain extent.

我深受触动，因为我们所有人都习以为常地认为光与黑暗的区别，但这对我们所有人而言都是一个核心原则，同时它又是一种相当神秘的事物。

And I was really struck by that, that it's something that we all take for granted, like the difference between light and darkness, but what a core principle that is for all of us, but also what a somewhat mysterious thing it is.

光究竟是什么？它从何而来？

Just the notion of what is light and where does it come from?

更重要的是，我们习以为常的这种根深蒂固的东西，实际上是一种根本性的需求，某种程度上甚至是生命所必需的。

Just more importantly, something that we take for granted that's ingrained in us is such a core thing that's a requirement for life in some ways.

没错。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

太阳是我们主要的光与暗的提供者，它创造了白天与黑夜的差异。

So the Sun is our primary sort of provider of light and darkness, and it creates that difference between day and between night.

在占星学中，我们常将太阳视为与光相关事物的主要来源，比如智力、思维，或者宇宙中一切事物所源自的核心创造力。

Astrologically, we often look to that as the primary source for some of the things that we associate with light, including the intellect or including things like the mind or things like that, the sort of core creative force that everything emanates from in the universe.

是的。

Yeah.

光、光辉或来自其他行星的辐射这一概念，也与它们的含义相关。

And the concept of light or brilliance or the kind of emanations that come from then the other planets is also associated with their meaning.

因此，当你开始观察其他行星的特性以及它们如何被定位或排序时，会发现它们也与光密切相关，因为被称为吉星的两颗行星——也就是好的行星——也是最明亮的行星。

So as you start to look at what the other planets are like and how they've been kind of situated or ranked in a way, they also have a lot to do with light because the two planets that are said to be the benefics, the good planets, are also the brightest of the planets.

对吧？

Right?

所以这种关联是成立的。

So it translates.

因此你可能会想，嗯，我想要找的那个词是什么来着？

And so you might be like, well, that's that is a kind of what's the word I'm looking for?

它是一种

It is a

像一个核心概念，或者像

Like a core concept or like

这是一个基础性的核心概念。

a It's foundation core concept.

但某种意义上，它也可能感觉像一种不公平的评判。

But it also could feel like an unfair judgment in a sense.

但如果我们把光与真实的生命、需要阳光的照射和温暖热量联系起来，就能理解这些概念的由来了——在那个生命极其脆弱、死亡率极高、人们寿命极短的时代。

But if we relate light to literal life and needing kind of the sun's rays and warmth and heat, then you can understand where these concepts come from a time where life was so precarious and people died at probably just wildly exceptional rates, didn't live that long.

因此，任何带来生命或体现生命特质的事物，都被视为美好、强大，是人们希望处于有利位置的东西。

So anything that was life bringing or that reflected the qualities of life bringing was deemed as good, as powerful as something that you want well situated.

是的，这说得通。

Yeah, that makes sense.

你用了‘光辉’这个词，还经常用‘闪耀’这个词，比如太阳就是要闪耀，在出生图中，太阳的位置描述了我们以不同方式闪耀的领域和方式。

And you use the term like brilliance and another term you use a lot is like shine, that the Sun just wants to shine and that in a birth chart, the placement of the Sun describes where and how we shine in different ways.

我觉得这非常重要。

I thought it was really important.

是的，有一种方式，至少在我看来，当你处于与你自身高度契合的生命领域时，你会感受到那种独特的闪耀，每个人都不一样，有着不同的品质或体验，而当我们观察你的太阳星座、它所在的宫位以及与之互动的行星时，这些都会在出生图中体现出来。

Yeah, there's this way in which when you're, I think at least my understanding of it is that when you're in a realm of life that resonates well with you, you feel that way in which you uniquely shine and it's different for everybody and there's a different quality or a different experience And that's, I think, reflected in the birth chart when we look at your sun, the sign it's in, the place that it's in, the house that it's in, and the planets that it's in conversation with.

并不是所有人都想在世界舞台上闪耀。

And we don't all wanna shine on the world stage.

而这就是占星术美妙的地方，它精准地表达了这一点。

And that's the beautiful part of astrology is it articulates that.

你知道吗，你和我大概都能讲出很多故事，关于那些太阳落在星盘挑战区域的人，他们从事的工作、生活方式，以及他们在这些特定领域、行业、工作方式或世界角落中如何 brilliantly 闪耀。

And, you know, you and I could probably talk have so many stories about people with their son in like challenging areas of the chart and the kind of work that they do and the kind of ways in which they live their life and how they shine really brilliantly in those specific realms or industries or ways of working or areas of the world.

因此，太阳的位置，就是你感受到生命力的入口，我认为是这样。

And so where the sun is, is that portal to you feeling a sense of vitality, I think.

我们希望太阳能充分表达，这样我们才能感到充满活力，感受到自己的主权、力量，并觉得自己是一个真正的创造之源。

Is where we want to have our sun really fully expressed so that we can feel energized, we can feel our own sovereignty, we can feel our own power, and we can feel like we are our own kind of generating force.

这太精彩了。

That's brilliant.

生命力。

Vitality.

这是个非常好的关键词，因为太阳就像太阳系的中心，其他一切围绕它运转，尤其是地球上的一切都依赖于它。

That's a really good keyword because the Sun is like the center of the solar system and everything else revolves around it and everything depends on it, especially on Earth.

地球上的所有生命都依赖太阳，植物吸收阳光，将其转化为自身食物和能量，从而生存、生长和繁盛。

All life on Earth depends on the Sun and the way that plants take sunlight and transform it into their own food and their own energy in order to live and grow and thrive.

同样地，在出生图中，太阳扮演着核心角色，是所有事物依赖的源泉，是活力的来源，也是其他事物围绕的动因，它提供了一个基本原则，有时我们用它来激励自己的生活和人生方向。

And in the same way the Sun plays that similar role as a central thing that everything depends on in the birth chart as a source of vitality and as a motivating factor that other things revolve around so that it provides a central principle that sometimes we use to motivate our life and our life direction in some ways.

是的。

Yeah.

因此，它是一种主导力量。

And so it's a dominant force.

所以你也能理解，为什么从隐喻上来说，它已成为我们理解自我的一个核心概念。

So you can also see why like metaphorically, it's become a dominant thing that we've understood about ourselves.

而且，确定一个人的星座也是最容易的：只要知道他们的出生日期，几乎就能知道他们是什么星座，除非他们恰好出生在太阳换星座的那一天。

It's also the easiest thing to locate about somebody's astrology is that if you know their birth date, pretty much unless they're born on the day the sun transitions signs, you know what sign they are.

因此，你实际上了解了他们一些核心的东西，这在我们想要进行关于占星学强大象征意义的大众对话时非常有帮助，这种象征意义在人类心理中已存在了很长时间。

And so you know something kind of core about them in a way that's really helpful when we want to have like a mass conversation about the powerful symbolism that astrology holds and it's held in the human psyche for so long.

对。

Right.

所以，特别是起点是太阳星座，以及它如何成为每个人在世界上行事的驱动力。

So especially I guess the starting point is the Sun sign and how that becomes a motivating force for each person in terms of how they operate in the world.

你非常关注太阳星座的三合性或元素，以及它赋予每个人的驱动力关键词，还有模式——即本位、固定和变动——为太阳星座背后的驱动力提供了另一组关键词。

You focus a lot on the triplicity or the element of the Sun sign and what motivating keywords that gives to each person as well as the modality in terms of cardinal fixed and mutable is giving another set of keywords for that motivating force that's underlying the Sun sign.

是的，我认为这是另一种很好的方式来集中我们的注意力，比如：好吧，我可能不太理解，我遇到很多人，我自己也曾这样，某些星座，我花了相当长的时间才弄清楚那个星座究竟是如何体现的？

Yeah, I think it's another good way to locate our attention and to be like, okay, so I might not understand, I meet a lot of people and I've been like this too, certain signs, it took me kind of like a while to figure out how does that sign actually manifest?

有些星座可能看起来跟你完全无关。

There's some signs that might just feel like really far away from you.

这没关系。

And that's fine.

所以你可以放下关于那个星座的流行认知，转而思考：它属于哪种模式？

So you can kind of like let go of the popular knowledge about what that sign is, and be like, what modality is it?

它要么是本位的，即季节的开始，充满能量，喜欢开始很多事情。

It's going to be either cardinal, the beginning of a season, have a lot of energy, get starting with a lot of things.

它要么是变动的，位于季节之间，或者说是某个季节的末尾，抱歉，应该是本位、固定之后。

It's gonna be mutable, a sign that comes in between the seasons or in between, like, at the end of one sorry, cardinal fix.

所以季节开始，固定星座将其稳固。

So the season begins, the fix sign fixes it.

因此，拥有固定星座特质的人会表现出非常稳固、沉稳的品质，通常会散发出自信或不可动摇的气场，因为这就是该星座或该模式的氛围。

So people with something in a fix sign are gonna have that quality of being really sturdy and steady and usually give off an air of confidence or immovability because that's the vibe of that sign or of that modality.

而 Mutable 星座则会出现，说：‘好了，我们已经结束了那件事，但还没准备好迎接下一件事。’

And then the mutables that come along and be like, okay, Liv, we're done with that thing, but we're not quite ready for the next thing.

我们会处于这个过渡的空间中。

And we're going to be in this transitional space.

因此，它极其灵活多变，能够适应变化。

So, it's exceptionally flexible and mutable, it's able to change.

所以，如果你了解上升星座或太阳星座的这种特质，那么当你从上升星座驱动的角度来看这个人时，你就能了解关于他们非常具体的一些东西。

And so, if you know that quality about the Ascendant sign, about the Sun sign, then you're going to know something really specific about how this person is if we're looking at the rising sign motivated.

他们被什么所驱动？

What are they motivated to do?

他们是被推动去开创事物的吗？

Are they motivated to initiate things?

他们是倾向于稳定事物，并让他人相信他们能完成任务吗？

Are they motivated to stabilize things and to evoke a sense of confidence from other people that they can get the job done?

还是他们会进来就说：好吧，太好了，我要做一大堆不同的事情。

Or are they going to come in and be like, okay, great, I'm going to do a bunch of different things.

我要同时处理多项任务，多面发展，经营两家公司，做所有这些事，因为这就是我能做的事。

I'm going to be like multitasking, multifaceted, run two businesses, do all the stuff, because that's the thing that I can do.

我可以把我的精力分散到许多不同的方向，而这对我来说其实是好事。

I can disperse a lot of my energy in a lot of different directions and that's actually good for me.

这就是上升星座的特质，而太阳星座则代表你如何闪耀。

That's like rising sign vibe and then sun sign is like that's how you shine.

所以你可能拥有一个变动星座的上升，因此倾向于做很多事、探索很多事、付出很多，同时拥有一个固定星座的太阳，让你在做这一切时都带着自信、稳固感和坚持到底的强韧能力，也许还要同时应对很多不同的事情。

So you can have a mutable rising sign and again be motivated to do a lot, to explore a lot, to give out a lot, and then have a fixed sun sign and do that all with a sense of confidence and a sense of sturdiness and a kind of robust ability to stay the course and maybe a lot of different things.

然后如果我们看元素，星座的元素要么是火、水、风，要么是土。

And then if we look at the elements, you know, the element of the sign is either fire, water, air, or earth.

如果你把火元素看作一种需要大量自由、必须追随直觉或欲望的创造力量——他们获得某种洞察后，就必须立刻付诸行动。

And if you think about fire as that creative force that needs a lot of freedom and needs to be able to follow their impulse or follow their desire, like they get kind of insight and they've got to kind of go with it.

风象星座需要沟通，需要处于思维的领域。

Air signs need to be in communication, they need to be in the realm of thought.

土象星座需要务实，需要让事物成形，他们会感到稳固。

Earth signs need to be practical, need to make things manifest, they'll feel sturdy.

水象星座当然需要感受，以某种方式处于情感的领域。

And then water signs of course need to feel and be in the kind of realm of emotion in some way shape or form.

然后你把这两者结合起来。

And then you mix those two things.

这些只是占星学的基本知识，但当你将它们应用到这些不同原则时，它们能提供大量清晰的洞察，告诉你什么能让人感到自己在发光，或让人感到：是的，我正与我真正想做的事保持一致。

And these are just like super astrology basics, but when you apply them to these different principles, they give a lot of clarity as to what will help that person feel like they're shining or what will help that person feel like, yes, I'm in line with what I'm motivated to do.

你可以在生活的不同领域做这些不同的事情，每个人都有这些不同的组合。

And you can do all those different things in different areas of life and everybody has these different combinations.

这使得占星学成为最古老的个性测试。

It makes astrology the oldest personality test available.

是的，去年我做了一系列关于十二星座的视频，深入探讨了每个星座。

Yeah, I did a whole series on the zodiac where we did a deep dive into each sign last year.

能有这个提醒真是太好了，看到每个星座多达几十甚至上百个关键词，其实都回归到了那些核心原则：元素是土、火、风、水，模式是 cardinal、fixed 还是 mutable？

It was great having that reminder and just being how shocked so many of the dozens or even hundreds of keywords for each of the signs of the zodiac really just come back to those core principles of what is the element, earth, fire and water and what is the modality cardinal fixed or mutable?

然后，也许还要考虑与该星座相关或主宰该星座的行星是什么？

Then also maybe what is the planet associated with that sign or that rules that sign?

从这些组合中，你会得到数百个不同的关键词，同时也能看出个体的核心动机；有时有趣的是，当不同人的内在动机彼此契合时，他们就会自然而然地走到一起，形成友谊或关系；而有时你也能看到，当不同人拥有大量位于不同模式或元素的星盘配置时，情况会怎样。

And then from those combinations, you just get hundreds of different keywords, but then also you can see the core motivations of individual people as well as sometimes it's funny how different people's internal motivations sometimes when they're in alignment with other people, that's when you get friendships or relationships sometimes of just two people when they share something in common sometimes tend to gravitate together versus sometimes how you can see when different people have preponderance of placements in different modalities or elements.

有时他们会因为做事方式不同，或内在动机不一致而产生冲突。

Sometimes they run into conflict with each other just because they're not used to doing things the same way or they don't have the same internal motivations.

当他们与拥有不同动机优先级的人互动时，有时会觉得对方简直像外星人，这种差异有时会成为他们之间紧张或冲突的根源。

Sometimes it comes off as almost alien when they're dealing with somebody that has different motivational priorities and that sometimes becomes a source of tensions or conflicts between them.

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。

Mhmm.

在流行占星学中，你可能知道这个星座会这样，那个星座会那样。

And you might know that in popular astrology because this sign does this and this sign does this.

但这些梗甚至也源自更深层的根源，真正关乎这两种特质的本质。

But those even those like memes, they come from like this this deeper root that is really about the nature of the qualities of these two things.

当你再加入统治该星座的行星时，就能更全面地理解为什么这个星座具有这样的特质，以及这种特质的来源，因为这些特质大多——虽然不是全部——都源于统治该星座或拥有其 domicile 的行星。

And then when you add in the planet that rules that sign, it kind of gives you a kind of fuller understanding of why that sign has that quality, where that's from, because it is all, you know, or a lot of it, not all of it, but a lot of it's originated in the planet that rules that sign or has its domicile.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

我有一张图表，可以展示一个古老的图示，其中标明了黄道十二宫、统治它们的行星，以及不同的元素和模式。

And I have a diagram that can show like an old diagram that just shows the signs of the zodiac, the planets that rule them, as well as what the different elements and modalities are.

在古老的传统中，他们还会根据性别进行划分，认为奇数星座是阳性，偶数星座是阴性。

In the older traditions, they also divide it by like they do gendered assignments of saying odd signs or masculine and even signs are feminine.

但我知道现在有人在讨论修订这些分类，而你也在你的书中对这些分类提出了不同的看法，对吧？

But I know there's been a discussion about revising some of those and that's one where you like to frame those differently in your book, right?

是的。

Yeah.

因为这种语言太过局限，而我们正处在一个重新 reclaim 人类多样性别表达的时刻，一直以来都是如此。

Because the language of it is so limiting, and we are in a moment of reclaiming the, you know, the the diverse gender expressions of humans, you know, forever.

将人类划分为两种性别类别并存在性别二元论的观念其实非常新，且与殖民主义和白人至上主义密切相关。

This understanding of human beings falling into two categories of gender and having a gender binary is really new and very connected to colonization and white supremacy, etcetera.

所以，即使你思考这些体系形成的时代，根据我们所讨论的地区不同，当时对性别的理解也各不相同，而且在许多情况下，对性别的认知更为宽广。

So even like if you think about when these systems were created, depending on what region we're talking about, also had different and in a lot of cases, expansive understanding of gender.

因此，在当下这个正在解构性别的时刻，使用旧有的语言变得很困难，因为这些术语本身已经变得有问题。

So it's hard to, like, use old language in this moment because we're also deconstructing gender in a way that makes those terms problematic.

所以我认为重要的是要说明：它们属于不同的类别，你可以用任何你喜欢的词语来称呼这些不同的类别。

So I think the important thing is to say, like, they're in different categories and you can use whatever words you like for those different categories.

而且，有时同一个词在不同历史时期、不同人类认知阶段和不同哲学体系中使用，到了新语境下也会变得有问题。

And also, it's hard to say sometimes the same words from different eras of, you know, human understanding and different philosophies, and they become problematic in new context.

为了更好地传达和理解这些概念，有时使用不同的语言反而更好。

Just in order to, like, get it across and, like, have an understanding of it, sometimes it's better to use different language.

你更倾向于使用夜晚或月亮型、太阳型这样的语言吗？当你谈论奇数和偶数星座时，你更喜欢怎样的区分方式？

And you like to use more of a nocturnal or lunar and solar type language, or what's your preferred distinction when you're talking about the odd versus the even signs?

是的，我认为这很有帮助，因为我们之前还没怎么谈到这一点，但因为太阳有一支队伍，月亮也有一支队伍，不仅不同的行星属于这些队伍，不同的星座也可以被认为归属于这两支队伍。

Yeah, I think that helps just we haven't really covered this, but because the sun has a team and the moon has a team, not only are different planets on that team, but the different signs are we could say are seen to go under those two teams.

所以如果这样区分有帮助的话，我们可以使用这种说法。

So we could use that distinction if it's helpful.

也就是说，火象和风象星座属于太阳队，而水象和土象星座属于月亮队。

So that the, like, fire and and air signs fall under the solar team and then water and earth signs fall under the lunar team.

而且你甚至不需要过多解释为什么这样划分，只要想想月亮与潮汐的关联，月亮代表身体，而身体就是地球；太阳则 literally 是一团火焰，因此与火象和风象相关。

And I don't think you even need to explain why that is too much even if you think of just the moon and its connection to tides and the moon as the body and the body is Earth and the Sun is literally a ball of fire and so it's connected to fire and air.

是的，我喜欢这个说法。

Yeah, I like that.

这样比用太阳与月亮、白昼与黑夜来关联，更能连接上现代心理学中外向与内向这些更易理解的概念，把它们当作不同的人格类型，提供一种更贴近心理层面的切入点。

Connects it better that connecting with solar versus lunar or diurnal daytime versus nighttime, also with more relatable modern even psychological notions of extroversion and extroverts versus introverts and those being different personality types and sort of a more psychological access point like that.

对。

Yeah.

那么，你觉得用内向与外向这个范式来理解这种区分是否合适？或者还有其他更贴切的关键词可以用来表达这种区别吗？

So do you think that's an okay paradigm in terms of introversion versus extroversion or are there other relatable keywords there that are useful in terms of that distinction?

我认为内向和外向这个说法是可以的，只要我们关注的是星座的特质，而不是一个人的全部面貌。

I think introversion and extroversion as long as we are thinking about the quality of the sign and not necessarily the entirety of the picture of the person.

因为实际情况要复杂得多，但我们往往倾向于用一对一的简单比例来思考这个问题。

Because it's a lot more complicated but we tend to make do like one to one kind of ratios and we start thinking about this.

所以只要你能意识到这背后更复杂的情况——星盘内容丰富，你本人也远不止这些表象，比如如果你的星盘里有很多水象和土象行星，你可能会在内心感受到很多波动，或者需要更多独处的时间，但外界看来你可能依然显得外向。

So as long as you can hold that with a more complex thing because there's a lot to the chart, there's a lot to you, there's a lot more than just those, just that if you have like all, you know, so many things that are in water and earth, you might display or you might feel like a lot goes on internally with you or that there's a need for more introverted time, but you might also appear to the world to be extroverted.

对。

Right.

比如你上升星座是射手座之类的。

If you have like Sag rising or something.

或者像木星落在第一宫，或者其他会让你在他人面前表现得更外放、更活泼的因素。

Or like, yeah, like Jupiter in the first house or, you know, something that is going to get you to appear to other people or have you motivated to appear to other people in a way that is bouncier, let's say.

我喜欢这一点，因为它真正带出了一个关键：我们的星盘非常复杂，常常存在相互矛盾的指示，就像人本身一样复杂，不同的人在不同视角下、在人生不同阶段会展现出不同的面向。

I like that because that really brings up a point that, our charts are complicated and there's many sometimes contradictory indications just like people themselves are complicated and there's different facets of different people depending on your perspective on them and depending on different parts of the life.

当你看太阳、月亮和上升星座时，第一件应该意识到的事情是：你的上升星座、外在形象，可能和你真实的内在并不一致。

That's really the first thing that people should come to see and realize when you look at the Sun, Moon and rising is just realizing that with your rising sign, appearance, how you appear to people may be one thing.

你的太阳星座代表你如何闪耀或你的智力，可能又是另一回事；而月亮的位置关系到你的身体和一些生理层面，可能完全是另一个星座。

Your Sun sign like how you shine or your intellect may be another thing and how your Moon is placed in terms of your body and some of the physical things may be a completely different sign.

这其中核心的真相就是，我们每个人都是复杂、多面的个体，拥有多种不同的动机，我们的性格由许多有时相互竞争甚至矛盾的因素构成。

And part of the core truth of that is just showing that each of us are complicated, complex individuals that have a variety of different motivations and our character is made up of a number of different sometimes competing or even contradictory things.

这一点在星盘中得到了体现。

That's shown depicted.

是的。

Yeah.

这甚至可能让你自己感到尴尬。

And can make you yourself cringe.

你的星盘中可能有一部分是个超级书呆子，只想钻进图书馆或研究室里埋头钻研。

So, there can be one part of your chart that's like a super nerd that just wants to go into a library, a study cave and just geek out.

而另一部分则可能是，

And then

你的星盘中还有另一部分，尤其是我们提到的那三四个因素之一，它活跃在外界，张扬、喧闹、混乱，这让那个只想埋头学习的书呆子部分感到羞愧不已。

there can be another part of your chart that, again, is, like, especially one of these three or four things that we're mentioning that is, like, out in the world and big and loud and noisy and chaotic, and that can make the part of your chart that's geeky nerd that just wants to study, like, mortified.

但作为拥有这一切的人，你必须找到一种方式，为这些不同的方面——甚至多个方面——提供时间和空间，既要应对随之而来的后果，也要让这些部分中的每一个都能在你生活的某个层面上得到充分展现。

But you, as the person that is all of these things, you have to figure out a way to to give both of those aspects or the many aspects of you time and space And to deal with the consequences, but also to feel like both of those things or all of these things get to live themselves out in some aspect of my life.

是的。

Yes.

我喜欢这个说法。

I love that.

太棒了。

That's great.

这让我想到亨利·卡维尔，他过去十年里一直扮演超人，外表是个肌肉发达、魅力十足的硬汉，扮演着主角角色，但私下里他却是个电脑游戏极客，还在YouTube频道上发布视频，自己组装游戏电脑之类的东西。

It reminds me of Henry Cavill who's been playing Superman for most of the past decade and he's outwardly this hunky super buff guy that's playing these leading roles, but then privately he's kind of like a computer game nerd and he has videos on the YouTube channel building a gaming PC and stuff like that.

所以，一个人的性格有不同层面，这也是我们理解太阳、月亮和上升星座差异的一个切入点。

So There's different parts of a person's personality and that's one of our access points for understanding the difference between the Sun, Moon and rising.

有时候，公众看到的是表面的东西，而私下的个性可能更加隐秘。

Sometimes there's the things that the public sees on the surface versus there's the private personality maybe that is more hidden.

这又让我们回到光明与黑暗的区分——那些我们能看到、知道存在的东西，和那些我们看不到、可能被隐藏，但依然存在并发挥作用、在幕后运作的东西。

And that again brings us back to that distinction between light and dark and the things that we can see that we know are there versus the things that we can't see or the things that are maybe hidden, but are there nonetheless and are playing a role sometimes or operating in the background.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

所以，如果你想讨论太阳落在星盘的哪个宫位，那么星盘中有一些宫位被称为隐藏宫，因为上升点无法观测到它们，或者它们也无法观测到上升点，而上升点是星盘的门户。

So then if you wanna talk about what area of the chart your sun is in, then there are some places in the chart, there are some houses in the chart that are what we call hidden or because the Ascendant can't witness them or they can't witness the Ascendant, which is the u of the chart.

因此，特别是星盘中的三个宫位被认为具有这种特性，实际上有四个，但主要聚焦于第十二宫、第八宫和第六宫。

And so there's, you know, especially like three houses in the chart where that is thought to be so, four really, but three are kind of focused on the twelfth house, the eighth house, and the sixth house.

第二宫也有这种性质，但讨论得相对较少。

Also the second house, but it's talked about kind of less.

但如果你的太阳落在这些宫位中的一个，你可能是一个在那些隐秘领域发光的人。

But if you have your son in one of those places, then you might be somebody who shines in areas that are kind of like tucked away.

比如，如果你的太阳在第十二宫，你可能花很多时间在昏暗的房间、创意孵化空间，或者你退隐其中的地方；你也可能与被监禁的人交往，这些地方都是被隐藏的、被我们丢弃或想遗忘的角落。

So in, you know, if you've got your son in the twelfth house, perhaps you spend a lot of time in dark rooms or creative incubators or places that you kind of retreat to, that you go into, or you spend time with people that are incarcerated, literally spaces that are tucked away or where we shove people or we want to forget about things.

因此，这可能就是你感到属于自己的领域。

And so that might be an area where you're like, oh, this is my area.

这就是我要做的事。

This is my thing to do.

而且我认为，我之所以如此着迷于占星学，想要教它、希望它传递给感兴趣的人，是因为它能给你一种被见证的感觉，我从未见过它与一个人的生活不完全吻合。

And I think, again, like the reason why I'm so enthralled with astrology and wanna teach it and want it to go to people that are interested in it is because it gives you that witnessing, and I've never seen it not be totally aligned with somebody's life.

我也知道，很多十二宫的星盘配置都非常出色，比如那些善于解决问题的人。

I also know, like, a lot of twelfth house placements that are amazing, like, fixers.

他们进去后，面对一个巨大的问题，你甚至不知道他们来过，也不知道他们是否与首席执行官们交谈过，但他们进去后就能帮助所有人解决问题。

Like, they go in and there's, a huge problem and you don't even know they've ever been there or that they're talking to like the CEOs or whatever, and they go in and they help everybody fix the problem.

他们来去无声，你根本不会意识到他们已经做了这些事。

They go in and out without you even ever knowing that they've done that.

因此，这些事情有多种发生的方式。

And so there's a lot of ways in which these things can happen.

但了解你的太阳所在的生命领域——即它所在的宫位——我认为能极大地帮助你摆脱对人生目标或自我定位的某种感受。

But knowing the area of your life that your son is in, the house that it's in, can do I think so much in terms of like liberating you from feeling a certain way about what you want to do with your life or like how you want to be.

你可能是一个太阳落在天蝎座的人，性格有点隐秘、内向，对生命的神秘事物感兴趣，但你的太阳却落在第十宫，或者月亮落在巨蟹座却落在第十宫。

And you can be somebody with like say, you know, like a Scorpio Sun that it might be a little secretive and a little private and be interested in the mysterious things of life, but have your son in the tenth house or a Cancer son in the tenth.

他们可能具有比较内向或保守的特质，但你的儿子位于星盘的公众领域。

They can have these qualities of being maybe a little bit more private or a little bit more reserved, but your son is in a public area of the chart.

所以你就在这里了。

And so there you are.

无论以何种方式，你都不得不被推入公众视野，或不得不接受这将成为你人生旅程的一部分。

You're in some way, shape, or form going to be thrusted into the public or have to contend with the fact that that has got to be a part of your life and its journey.

你可能会对此感到非常矛盾。

And you might also feel really conflicted about it.

但事实就是如此。

But here it is.

我认为，我总是觉得：你终究得做这件事。

You've got to like, I think for me, I am always like, you gotta do this thing though.

它就在那里，你心里清楚。

Like that is, it's in there and you know it.

那么，你该如何以一种对你来说可持续的方式去完成它呢？

And so how can you do it in a way that you feel is sustainable for you?

对。

Right.

嗯，作为太阳落在天蝎座、第十宫的人，至少我是通过进行非常漫长而深入的对话来做到的，这些对话常常持续两三个小时，讨论的是神秘、隐秘的知识类话题。

Well, as like the Sun and Scorpio and the tenth house person, me at least you do it by having really long intense conversations that go way too long for two or three hours about occult hidden knowledge type things.

而且你会非常公开地做这件事，比如每个月在播客上进行四次。

And you do it very publicly like four times a month on a podcast.

这是一个很好的例子，因为它说明了星座位置和宫位位置之间有时存在矛盾，但这个人总会找到某种方式来调和或融合这些有时对立的能量，使其独特且合理，并成为我们日常生活中随处可见的一种现象。

And that's a really good example because that's an example how sometimes there's contradictions between a sign placement versus a house placement, but the person will always find some sort of way to reconcile that or to blend those sometimes opposing energies in a way that's unique and makes sense and becomes one of the things that we just see around us in the world every day.

是的。

Yeah.

所以你的天蝎座太阳是固定模式，你已经做了七百万集了，但你还在继续。

So your Scorpio Sun is a fixed modality, so you've done 7,000,000 of these episodes and you just keep going.

是的。

Yeah.

一致性很重要，一旦你找到了自己的节奏，反复做同一件事，而这件事能带给你快乐、幸福或活力——用太阳的关键词来说，固定星座的人往往从熟悉的事物和重复做自己喜欢的事情中获得活力，而太阳或其他配置落在变动星座的人，则可能从尝试新事物、每次都不重复中获得活力。

Consistency and once you find your routine and doing something over and over again, and that that's something that brings you joy or happiness or vitality to use like a Sun keyword that people, a fixed sign people let's say find vitality in what is familiar and doing the same thing that they enjoy over and over again versus somebody that has a cardinal sign with their Sun in it or other placements in it you know, might find vitality in doing something new and like not doing the same thing every time.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

或者他们生活中必须有一个领域，让他们感到自己能够开启新事物，保持主动发起的能量。

Or there's got to be an area of life where they feel like they are able to start things keep the energy of initiation in some aspect of their life.

是的。

Yeah.

我喜欢你再次使用了‘活力’这个词，因为太阳落座的位置正是我们找到活力的地方。

I like that you used the word vitality again though, but that's where the Sun placement is where we find vitality in certain things.

有时候，就像你所说的，黑暗宫位和光明宫位之间的区别，有时在那些并不明显或不为人所见的事物中找到活力，或者在帮助他人、服务他人、治愈他人中找到活力，这在某些宫位中是一个重要主题，比如第六宫、第八宫和第十二宫，这些对某些人来说是非常有活力的。

Sometimes like you were saying, the difference between the dark houses versus the light houses and sometimes finding vitality in things that are not super obvious or super visible to people or even finding vitality in helping people or being of service to heal people is a major theme that comes up in some of those houses like the sixth and the eighth and the twelfth, and that that can be vitalizing for certain people.

是的。

Yeah.

而且这也非常复杂，比如说你是狮子座上升，这意味着你有动力去闪耀、吸引注意力，成为一点表演者，做一些能吸引焦点的事情。

And also so complex, say you're a Leo rising, and that means that you're motivated to shine and get attention and be a little bit of a performer and do something that pulls focus.

但你是摩羯座太阳落在第六宫。

But you're a Capricorn Sun in the sixth house.

这意味着你闪耀的部分在于工作领域，而第六宫的人常常在某件事中找到意义，但这并不是唯一的地方。

And that means that part of where you shine is in the area of work and often sixth house people find something, some meaning, and this isn't the only place.

所以别把这当成唯一的事情。

So don't, you know, take this for the only thing that this is.

但第六宫的人通常是非常出色的支援型人物。

But often Sixth House people are really amazing support folks.

比如在组织内部，他们可能是首席运营官，或者像内部创业者那样，意味着在现有的结构中，他们能够做事——我用这个词是因为这是摩羯座，属于 cardinal（开创性）星座。

Like within an organization, they could be like the, you know, the COO or, you know, someone that's able to be like an intrapreneur, which means that within an existing structure, they're able to like do things and, you know, I'm using that word because it's Capricorn, so it's cardinal.

所以他们会开始一些事情，但都是在别人或一群人已经建立好的结构之内。

So like begin things, but it's within a structure that somebody else or a group of people have already done.

因此，有时会与狮子座上升所需的闪耀和关注产生冲突。

So sometimes there can be a conflict with like, the Leo rising of it all that needs to shine and get attention.

而摩羯座第六宫的配置则意味着你也是一个勤勉的工作者，非常擅长融入现有的结构，并从这个位置提供支持。

And then Capricorn six house placement of it all where it's like you're also a workhorse and like you're really good at getting into an existing structure and being able to support from that place.

所以，你必须找到一个地方，让你的狮子座上升感到快乐，但同时也需要从事一份长期来看让你感到真正满足的工作，并且是你能持续注入新能量的。

And so, you have to find a place where your Leo rising can be happy, but you also have to do work that feels really satisfying long term and also something that you feel like you can keep, like, bringing new energy into.

对。

Right.

这说得通。

That makes sense.

如果这些需求中的一些得到了满足，或者你能够找到方法实现其中一些，这可能会成为你活力的来源。

That that can be a source of vitality for you if some of those things are fulfilled or if you're able to find a way to fulfill some of those things.

它可能是一种赋予生命力的力量，能在某种程度上为你的整个星盘和其他星体位置注入能量。

It can be like a vividifying force that can energize the rest of the chart and the rest of your placements in some way.

是的，它可能会为你的人生带来一种美好感，甚至可能让你觉得是一种幸运，我觉得。

Yeah, it can bring a sense of goodness or maybe even what you feel is like a fortune into your life, I think.

好的。

Okay.

所以，这就是太阳、太阳星座，尤其是太阳所处的星座和宫位，它们显示了你可能闪耀的领域，或者你可能感受到活力与生机的领域。

So that's the Sun and the Sun sign and especially the zodiac sign that it's placed in and also the house placement showing the area of life where you might shine or where you might have that sense of vitality or being enlivened.

我们来谈谈月亮，以及你之前提到的与月亮相关的那些关键词，当我们某种程度上把太阳与思维或智力、以及赋予事物活力联系起来时。

Let's talk about the Moon and some of those keywords that you were bringing up for the Moon where while we're associating the Sun to a certain extent more with the mind or the intellect and with the sense of energizing things.

而月亮，我们更多地是在谈论身体的不同方面。

The Moon, we're talking more about the body in different ways.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

生命的生理体验。

The physical experience of life.

我还把月亮看作是生活的日常性，而太阳可能是那种宏大的、照亮我的东西。

I also think of the Moon as the dailiness of life where the sun might be the big like, yes, this is presence, what lights me up.

这是让我感到振奋的事。

This is what inspires me.

这是像我灵魂的使命一样。

This is like my soul's, you know, purpose.

就像是，好吧，我每天都得去实践它。

It's like, okay, well, I gotta live that out every day.

每一天，我都得遛狗、买饭、睡觉，当然最好还能洗个澡，做些生活中的琐事。

And every day, I gotta walk the dog and get some food and get some sleep and, like, you know, hopefully take a shower and, like, do the mundane things of life.

月亮当然是离地球最近的天体。

The moon is, of course, the closest body to the earth.

因为它移动得很快，所以它总是在与其他行星或天空中的其他发光体对话。

And so because it moves so fast, it's always in conversation with the other planets or the other luminary in the sky.

因此，月亮被视为我们与所有这些天体知识、能量或原型之间的中介。

And so there's this way in which the moon becomes thought of as our intermediary between all of this celestial knowledge and energies or archetypes, if you will, and us.

所以我们的身体就像是灵魂使命与将其付诸实践之间的中介。

And so our body is like that intermediary between our soul's purpose and like living it out.

因此，我不得不面对这个载体本身。

And so I had to contend with whatever this vehicle is.

这个载体以及它所经历的一切，会让我产生各种各样的感受、情绪和变化。

And this vehicle and whatever happens to it will make me feel a lot of different ways and to have a lot of different moods and emotions and changes.

月亮的盈亏方式也可以被看作是对这一点的隐喻性反映。

And the ways in which the moon waxes and wanes can also be seen as like a metaphorical reflection of that.

我认为，要理解‘我该如何看待我的月亮’可能会稍微难一点。

And it can be a little, I think, harder to understand, okay, well, how do I look at my moon?

我觉得月亮就像是你每天必须去做的事情。

I think of, like, the moon is like, this is what you have to do in, a daily way.

这就是你照顾自己的方式。

This is how you take care of yourself.

这就是你可以思考自我关怀的方式。

This is how you can think about self care.

但这也关乎那个宏大而深远的目标。

But this is also that big, huge, like purpose.

它太大了。

It's too big.

你他娘的该怎么做到这一点？

Like how the fuck do you do that?

你不能只是跑去说，这就是我的人生目标，我去实现它就行了。

You can't just go and like, that's my purpose, I'm going to go do it.

你得在生活的细枝末节中慢慢拆解它。

You got to unpack it in the nitty gritty kind of work of life.

我认为，通过月亮，我们能明白，这种目标是通过一种有节奏的、日常的，有时甚至是实实在在的身体方式来实现的。

And I think that through the Moon, we get to know that that's kind of how we do it in a rhythmic daily and sometimes like literal physical kind of way.

如果我想照顾好自己，我就得去看我的月亮，问自己：它现在落在哪个星座？

And it's if I want to take care of myself, I'm going go to my moon and be like, what sign is it in?

它属于哪种模式？

What modality?

我能做些什么？

What can I do?

或者当我看你星盘的时候，我会想：这个月亮的构成要素是什么？

Or when I'm looking at your chart, I'm going be like, okay, well, what are the components of this moon?

我们怎样才能帮助平复神经系统，或让这个人感受到安全感呢？

So how can we help to like bring the nervous system back down or help this person to feel a sense of security.

我认为月亮能为我们提供许多通往生活这一领域的钥匙。

And I think the Moon can give us a lot of keys into that area of life.

是的，这很棒。

Yeah, that's great.

我喜欢你一开始提到的观点，即月亮是我们最接近的天体。

I liked that point you made at the very beginning about that the Moon is the celestial body that's closest to us.

因此，在某些方面，它更具有个人性，同时也让人联想到即时性——比如维持身体运转所必需的进食和睡眠，这些都是你必须立即完成的基本需求；如果这些需求被中断，或者身体正常运作所需的东西被干扰，情况就会变得复杂。

So it's much more personal in some ways, but it also brings to mind ideas of immediacy that the things that you have to do to keep your body going like eating and sleeping are those immediate necessities that you must do where if some of those things are interrupted or if the things that the body needs in order to operate regularly are interrupted.

比如，如果你健康状况不佳，感觉不舒服或生病，这有时会妨碍你进行其他智力活动，比如追求你的儿子和人生目标之类的事情。

Like if you don't have good health, for example, if you're not feeling good or if you feel sick, that sometimes interrupts you from being able to do other things intellectually where you might want to be doing, like pursuing intellectually your son and your life purpose or something like that.

但如果身体出现了问题，打乱了这一切，它往往会主导或偏离其他所有事情。

But if there's something that's happening with the body that's throwing a wrench in that, it can have a tendency to dominate or sidetrack everything else.

这让我想到一些我们作为肉体存在、寄居于身体中所必须做的基本维护工作，以及随之而来的一切。

It just brings to mind some of those things that we have to do to have the basic upkeep of being physical beings that are incarnated in a body and everything that comes along with that.

是的。

Yeah.

接下来我们要探讨太阳和月亮之间的关联——这一点德米特拉·乔治在她的诸多著作中都已经研究得十分透彻、阐述得非常出色了。我们总会处于某种月相之中，月亮始终处于变化之中，而它的光都源自太阳的反射，这也是我们理解月亮象征意义的另一个角度。

And then you wanna look at the, which again, Demetra George does so thoroughly and so well in a lot of different books that she's written, but you wanna look at the relationship between the sun and the moon because obviously we're always in some kind of moon phase, like the moon is always doing something and that's because of the light that it's reflecting from the sun, is also another metaphorical understanding of what the moon is.

月亮作为一个天体，本身并不能发光，它只是光线的反射体。

The moon literally as a body isn't a generator of its own light, but it's the reflector of the light.

这就好比脱离了灵魂的肉体不过是一具躯壳，而唯有承载了太阳的光芒、或是灵魂的光，肉体才能拥有生命力，去完成诸多精彩的事。

So the body without the soul is a corpse, but the body with the light of the sun or the light of the soul is animated and can do a lot of really groovy things.

因此我认为，太阳与月亮之间的联结从原型层面来说，早已深深烙印在我们大脑最深处的认知里，是自人类诞生起就始终在观察、见证的存在。

And so the connection between the sun and the moon, again, is archetypally, I think, like lodged back in the deepest part of our brain and knowing as something that we've always been watching and witnessing.

而且你出生时的月相在我们的星盘里也蕴含着极为丰富的意义。

And it's also deeply rich with meaning in our chart, the phase of the Moon that you were born under.

对，你提到月相、以及月相与太阳的关联，这个观点说得非常好。还有月相变化的频率特别高，你在一个月里就能亲眼见证这整个过程：新月的时候月亮刚开始很暗，几乎没什么光亮，之后它变得越来越亮，越来越亮，直到满月的时候，它抵达了最圆满的状态，最大限度地闪耀着，反射出太阳的光芒。

Yeah, that's a really good point about the phase of the Moon and what its relationship is with the Sun and also just how the Moon phases change so frequently where it's something you can see over the course of the month that the Moon at a New Moon starts out very dark and not very bright, and then it just gets increasingly brighter and brighter and brighter until you hit the Full Moon and it's at its full maximum radiance and brilliance in reflecting the light of the Sun.

接着它又会越来越暗，直到迎来下一个新月，就这样一直不断循环变化，每一天的状态都不一样。我们每个人的情绪变化也是如此，会出现起伏波动，对不同的人来说，这种变化的节奏和表现形式也各有不同。

And then it gets darker and darker and darker until it hits the next New Moon and you just have that constant phase of change and things being different from one day to another in the same way that sometimes for each of us, our emotions change and shift and move upwards and downwards at different rates for each person in different ways.

对。

Yeah.

在这款应用中，我们会告诉你出生时处于哪个月亮相位，以及它的含义。

And we do this in the app where we tell you what phase of the moon that you were born under and what that means.

当你将月亮的相位与月亮所在的星座、宫位以及它形成的相位结合起来时，就能获得一种非常丰富而深刻的理解。

And so when you merge that with the sign that your moon is in, the house that it's in, the aspects that it's making, you get this really rich, deep understanding.

我出生时处于眉月相位。

I was born under a crescent moon phase.

我记得刚了解这一点时，那时我正经历巨大的挣扎，所以这对我帮助很大。

And I remember learning about that and it just, you know, probably at the time too, I was like in an immense struggle, so it was really helpful.

关于眉月相位的一些描述是，它正努力摆脱过去的惯性，重新确立自己，或将其确立为一件新事物。

But there's, you know, some of the words that are about crescent moon is like it's struggling to get away from the inertia of the past and to reestablish it or to establish itself as a new thing.

这种蜕变的过程与我产生了强烈的共鸣。

And that emergence has really resonated with me.

我当时就想，我这段挣扎其实是有意义的。

And I was like, so that this part of my struggle is actually meaningful.

我出生时，天空中就映照着这一相位，因此这绝非偶然。

It was reflected in the sky when I was born, and therefore it is on purpose.

所以这帮助我接纳了那个总感觉想要挣脱出来、迈向新事物的自己。

So then it helps me to accept or it helped me to accept that part of me that always feels like it is trying to emerge or come out into something new.

当你再将它与上升星座和太阳的位置结合起来时，你就能获得一幅更完整、更丰富的图景，展现一个人生命节奏与特质的形成方式。

And then when you start to mix it with, again, the rising sign and where the sun is, you start to get like this fuller, richer picture of the tempo, the quality of how this person's life comes into being.

因为上升星座是生命的标志，而太阳和月亮也同样可以被视为生命的标志——如果太阳和月亮处于某种挑战性的位置，这个人的生命能量也可能经历过艰难处境，甚至濒临死亡的经历。当你观察那些经历过重大身体创伤、尤其是濒临死亡的人的星盘时，就能清楚看到这些生命层面的脆弱性。

Because again, the rising sign is the marker of that life, so it's the marker of life, but the sun and moon are also, we could say markers of life because if the sun and moon are in, you know, a challenging situation, that person's literal life force could also have experienced challenging situations or even near death experiences, you know, like you can really see when you look at people's charts that have come through like major physical traumas, especially, or near death experiences that quite often these places of life can be compromised in some way.

所以再次强调，不要因为看到星盘中某些看似不利的配置就感到恐惧，但当你为别人解读时，说：‘哇，你有没有经历过某种让你不确定自己能否挺过来的事情，或者严重损害了你能力的经历？’——这种说法往往能带来极大的共鸣。

So again, not to like make anybody afraid if they have something that they read about that seems compromising, but also it can be really validating to look and say like when you give a reading to someone like, oh, wow, did you ever like experience something where you weren't sure if you were going to make it or something that really, you know, like compromised your ability?

而且，九次中有九次，对方都会回答：‘是的。’

And again, like nine times out of 10, it's like, yes.

然后你开始和他们谈论这些经历，慢慢打开、梳理这些经历，发现它们对一个人生命轨迹的核心意义有多么重要。

And then you talk about it, you start opening it up and unpack it and how core and essential it's been to the the mark of somebody's life.

弗里达·卡罗就是一个绝佳的、惊人的例子，无论是她的生活还是她的作品与艺术，都体现了这一点。

And somebody like Frida Kahlo is like a incredible, a wild example of that both through her life and her work and her art.

当你看她的星盘时，一切答案都清清楚楚地摆在那儿。

When you look at her astrology chart, it's like, it's right there.

所以，再次强调，做

So, again Do

你想让我调出来吗？

you want me to pull it up?

当然。

Sure.

如果你愿意，你就得看看你自己。

If you want, you gotta look at you.

只是，把所有这些东西都调出来。

Just, like, pulling all these things up.

是的。

Yeah.

我很快。

I'm quick.

你知道的，我必须事事领先。

I'm you know, I gotta be on top of things.

所以我们看到弗里达的上升星座是狮子座，这要求她做一些具有感染力、表现力、能吸引注意力的事情，甚至可能戴王冠。

So we can see Frieda's Ascendant is Leo, which demands that she does things that are gonna be evocative, performative, get attention, possibly wear crowns.

这是狮子座，其中带有一种王者风范。

It's Leo, there's something regal there.

她显然戴过很多顶王冠。

She obviously wore many.

这使得太阳成为她上升星座的主宰。

It makes the sun the ruler of her Ascendant.

太阳位于第十二宫，这正如我们一开始所说，是星盘中非常脆弱的部分，因为它关乎我们进入这个世界时生命与死亡的脆弱性。

The sun is in the twelfth house, which is a very, again, like we started out saying a precarious part of the chart because it's about that precarity of life and death as we emerge into the world.

所以我们知道那里有些东西。

So we know that there's something there.

它只是恰好有木星得势。

It doesn't, you know, it's just got Jupiter exalted.

这太棒了。

That's amazing.

它与海王星合相，使她在视觉和创意上极为出色。

It's conjunct Neptune, which makes her incredible visually and creatively.

她一生中充满了与癌症相关的主题——母性、生育、受孕，这些都具有典型的巨蟹座特质，因此这些主题始终存在。

And there's all these themes about cancer that run through her life, motherhood, childbirth, conception, all of that is very Cancerian in nature so those themes are always there.

她无疑是一位情感上极具感染力的艺术家。

She's definitely an emotionally evocative artist.

当我们直接看向她太阳的对面时，会看到火星——代表切断、充满攻击性和挑战的行星，以及天王星——虽然是一颗现代行星，但完全关乎意外与动荡——正与她的太阳、她的生命力形成直接对冲。

And then when we see, when we look directly across from her sun, we see that Mars, you know, the planet of severing, the planet of a lot of aggression, challenging things, and Uranus, a modern planet, but nonetheless, one that is all about accidents and disruptions, are directly in opposition with her Sun, her life force.

她的儿子不仅是那神圣的火花，也是她上升星座的守护星。

And not only is her son, you know, that divine spark, it's also the ruler of her ascendant.

这不仅暗示了她生命的走向，也关乎生命本身的可能性与生命力。

So it says something about the direction of her life, but also the possibility of life, the life force itself.

因此，火星与天王星这种破坏性的力量，正与她生存的能力相对抗；而火星本身就像一把手术刀，象征着利剑，能够切断一切。

And so this disruptive, you know, force of Mars and Uranus that are opposing her ability to live, and Mars is literally like the, you know, something that can cut through it as like the surgeon's instrument, it is the sword.

而她一生中确实遭遇了这场灾难性的事故，而第六宫——代表医院和事故发生的宫位——正是事故发生的场所。

And she's literally in her life in this disastrous accident and the sixth house where you're in SMRs are is the plates of accidents.

她遭遇了一场灾难性的事故，几乎被刺穿。

She's in this disastrous accident where she's like impaled.

这简直是一种震撼的字面体现。

And so it's like a shocking literal translation.

那么，其他有这种星盘配置的人也会有同样的命运吗？

Now, do other people with this placement have this destiny?

不会。

No.

但这个人成为了偶像，声名远扬，我不记得是谁说过这句话了。

But this is a person who becomes an icon, famous, and I can't remember who said it.

也许你知道，克里斯。

Maybe you do, Chris.

但当人们成为偶像时，他们往往以极端而戏剧化的方式活出自己的星盘，几乎像是为其他人照亮了这一原型。

But oftentimes when people become that are icons, they live out their astrology in such extreme and dramatic ways almost to like illuminate that archetype for the rest of us.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，她一生中的许多事情都围绕着健康问题展开，这些健康问题有时以不同方式影响着她的生命力。

And just the fact that she did so much of her life was centered around her struggles with health and how that sometimes impacted her life force in different ways.

但与此同时，她在内心深处挖掘，找到了通过艺术表达自我的方式，这种表达有时依然传递着这些主题，非常美好。

But then at the same time within that, she dug within herself and found a way to express herself through her art, which sometimes still conveyed those themes is really beautiful.

是的。

Yeah.

如果我们把第十二宫看作是禁锢之地，那么由于这场事故，她多年卧床不起。

And then if we want to look at like the 12th House as a place of confinement, and so because of the accident, she spends years and years and years confined to her bed.

如果我们进一步思考，好吧，那月亮又该怎么看呢？

And then if we wanna think, okay, well, how do we add the moon in?

月亮代表什么？

What does the moon mean?

如果月亮是我们以日常方式理解人生使命的方式，那么月亮的特质是什么？

Well, if the moon is how we unpack that life purpose in a kind of daily way, What is the quality of the moon?

而月亮位于代表事业的第十宫。

And the moon is up in the tenth house of career.

它在金牛座被提升。

It is exalted in Taurus.

它的位置非常好，你知道的，从某种意义上说确实如此。

It's in a really, you know, really good position and definitely in one way.

它处于一个非常强大的宫位。

It's in a really strong house.

因此我们知道，她以一种非常持续的方式，通过这个生活领域——也就是事业——来实现人生目标，这种表现方式近乎执着，而且金牛座是土象星座，所以她一定会富有成效。

So we know that part of how she unpacks her life purpose is through this area of life, is through career in a really consistent way that is, you know, like relentless in a sense in terms of like production and it's an earth sign, so she's going to be productive.

它靠近中天，这是一个充满激活与能量的点。

It is close to the mid heaven, a point of, you know, like activation and energy.

因此它显得格外突出。

So it feels exceptionally prominent.

所以你会想，好吧，你如何表达所有这些艰难的内容？

So you're like, okay, well, do you express all this difficult stuff?

嗯，是通过事业来表达的。

Well, it's through the career.

它位于金星星座，因此与艺术创作、美，或甚至农业之类的事物相关。

It's in a Venusian sign, so it's connected to art making or beauty or maybe even like agriculture or something like that.

如果你想再加上固定恒星，那么附近确实有一颗恒星，离中天和火星都差不多近。

And then if you wanna throw in like fixed stars, then it's, you know, there's there's a algal up there close ish to both the midheaven and the and the Mars.

而且，她的艺术中也确实能感受到那种氛围。

And definitely there's that feeling that comes through her art as well.

然后，这又是月亮，而月亮再次涉及第十宫中的创造，而她所表达的很多内容都与家庭、缺乏家庭，以及她努力组建家庭的经历有关。

And then again, it's the moon, which is again about conception in the tenth house of career, which is a lot of what she expressed was a lot about family and lack of family and her experiences trying to create family and all of that.

所以，

So,

一个

one

一种非常复杂的人生的细微表达，至今仍在被逐步揭示。

little expression of a very complex life that still gets unpacked to this day.

因此，她的人生印记已经影响了世界，也影响了她的行业；而第十宫也是你可能会思考自己所处行业的所在。

So, the mark of her life has marked the world and marked her industry and the tenth house is also a place where you might think about the industry that you're in.

如果你在那里有非常强烈的配置，你可能会对整个这种工作方式留下非常深远的影响。

If you have a really strong placement there then you could possibly leave a very deep mark on that whole kind of way of working.

是的，这真的很美。

Yeah, that's really beautiful.

她是一个绝佳的例子，展现了一个人如何如此直白地活出了自己的星盘。

She's such a good example of somebody that just like lived her chart in such a literal manner.

尽管她所经历和表达的一部分是传达困难与艰辛，但仅仅这一点本身，有时就能对世界产生巨大的影响。

And that even though part of what she lived and expressed was conveying the difficulties and the hardships, that in and of itself sometimes leaves such a major impact on the world.

她的第十二宫，有时还有第十宫的配置，以及它们之间的相互联系，有时让我想起我常举的一个例子——伽利略，他在晚年被软禁期间完成了最重要的一些工作。

Her twelfth and sometimes tenth house placement and the interconnection between them sometimes reminds me of an example I use sometimes for that which is Galileo who did some of his most important work later in life while he was under house arrest.

因此，他有一种被束缚或困在某处的感觉，但正是通过这种处境，他得以深入挖掘自己，以一种非常引人注目的方式找到了人生的意义。

And so he had this sense of confinement or being stuck somewhere, but then through that he was able to dig deep into it himself and find in some ways his life purpose in a really striking way.

他在第十二宫有什么星体？

What does he have in that twelfth house?

他和她一样，第十二宫和第十宫之间存在某种相互作用。

He has some sort of interchange just like she does between the twelfth and the tenth.

我们这么说是因为月亮是第十二宫的守护星，所以第十二宫被拉入了第十宫。

We're saying that because the Moon is the ruler of the twelfth, so the twelfth house gets pulled into the tenth house.

是的。

Yeah.

这是因为他的星盘特征类似，他也是狮子座上升，而且拥有

That it's Well, because it's a similar chart signature where he was also Leo rising and he had

哦，在第八宫。

Oh, in the eighth.

是的，这两个位置。

Yeah, these two positions.

第八宫里有一堆行星，形成星聚，但同时土星和木星也在第十二宫。

There's a bunch of planets, Stellium in the eighth house, but then also Saturn and Jupiter in the twelfth.

第十二宫的守护星是月亮，它在金牛座得势，靠近天顶，位于第十宫。

And the ruler of the twelfth is the Moon, which is up there exalted in Taurus near the Midheaven in the tenth.

从这个角度看，这两位人物之间存在着一种有趣的相似性。

And that's just an interesting parallel between those two figures in that way.

是的。

Yeah.

当你开始深入理解这些配置的运作方式时，你就能明白为什么仅仅用太阳星座来定义每个人的人生目标和事业是行不通的——当然，这远远不够。

And so when you start to get into how these things are set up, you can start to see why trying to pin everybody's life purpose and work in life just on their sun sign doesn't Of course, it doesn't cut it.

但我觉得，比如弗里达·卡洛和伽利略，这些例子并不是什么确认偏误。

But I think, like, Frida Kahlo is a and and Galileo, these examples of, like, well, that isn't, like, confirmation bias.

这些是那些行星在特定位置上的象征意义，而这就是她所经历的。

Like, these are the the significations of those planets in these positions, and this is what happened to her.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而她正是这样运用了这些能量。

And this is what she did with it.

所以，你明白，这并不是在说：‘你真是个话痨。’

So, you know, that's not being like, well, you're such a chatty Kathy.

你知道的吧？

You know?

就像，没错。

It's like Right.

这些是生活中真实发生的活动，它们通过这个人的生命展现出来，你可以去观察它们。

These are the actual activities of the life, and they're lived out through this person's life, and you can look at them.

我认为，回顾起来总是非常有趣，因为你能够看到整个生命历程的全貌，以及星盘如何继续在现实中体现。

And I think in retrospect is always fascinating because you get to see what happens in the entirety of the capsule and then also how the chart still lives itself out.

是的，当然。

Yeah, for sure.

而且有时候，人们能够用艰难的星盘配置做出非凡的事情，将它们转化为极其美好的东西。

And that people can do really incredible things with difficult placements sometimes and transform those into something really beautiful.

是的，我认为我们每个人都必须转化生命中的某些东西，而生活中几乎没有纯粹轻松的部分，对吧？

Yeah, and I think we all have to transmute something in our life and that there's not much of life that is purely easy, right?

因此，生活中充满了各种各样的困难和挑战。

So, there's a lot of difficulty and a lot of challenge in life in all the different ways.

所以，如果我们带着这种理解来看待自己的星盘，或许就不会那么害怕看到或已经看到的某些内容，而是会好奇这些困难、这些沙粒与牡蛎最终会帮助我们创造出什么，并留下怎样的馈赠。

And so if we come with that kind of understanding to look at our chart, then we might not be so terrified of some of the things we might see or that we do see and be curious about what those difficulties, that sand and the oyster is gonna help us to like eventually create and leave behind as an offering.

你刚才提到的一件事让我想起，你之前说过月亮有时可能与祖先或我们生命早期的经历有关，比如成长过程，或者我们带着从家族历史中继承下来的东西来到这个世界。

And you mentioned something just now that reminds me that you had mentioned earlier on that the Moon can sometimes relate to ancestry or some of our early experiences earlier in life in terms of growing up or things that maybe we come into this life with from earlier in terms of our family history and things like that.

是的。

Yeah.

所以你也要思考一下，是否我的月亮在星盘中的位置与我生活中某种具体的体现有关？这并不适用于每个人，但确实值得考虑。

So you want to also think about like is and it won't always be for everybody, but like is where my moon is in my chart connected to something that is like a literal manifestation in my life?

我知道有个人来自一个艺术家家庭，而他们的月亮位于天秤座的第二宫。

Like I know somebody who's part of a family of artists and the moon is in Libra in their second house.

因此，月亮所代表的家庭联系，与天秤座所象征的艺术与艺术家特质，结合在第二宫——即个人获得支持的方式上，形成了某种关联。

And so the quality of the moon being the connection of family and the sign that it's in as Libra, which is a sign of art and artists is in their second house of how they're supported.

于是就有一种感觉：哦，这和家族有联系。

And so there's this sense of like, oh, there's a family connection.

你也是艺术家吗？

Are you also an artist?

你属于家族事业的一部分吗？

Are you part of the family business?

有没有什么与你祖先所做之事相关联的内容，也成为了你自身的一部分？

Is there something connected to what people that came before you did that is also part of what you do?

或者，比如，这可能是一家族从事渔业的人的特征，他们从事与航海相关的事情，因为月亮可能与水有关。

Or like, that could also be the signature of like a family of fisher people, like people that do like nautical things or you know because the moon could be related to water.

所以你要思考一下，是否有什么家族传承的东西传到了你身上？

So you want to think about is there a family thing that has been passed down to you?

这显然可能是一些有问题或具有挑战性的东西，而你可以将其转化为月亮所体现的生活领域中的积极力量。

And that could obviously be something that's problematic or challenging that you then take and transmute into something positive in the area of your life where the moon manifests itself.

然后我们再回到弗里达的星盘，她在作品中大量谈论了祖先的主题。

And then we want to go back to Frieda's chart again, she talks a ton or she painted a ton about ancestry in her work.

她给予世界的一个贡献，就是这些描绘她祖先的图像，以及这些图像对她意味着什么，还有土地、人民和墨西哥的殖民化，以及其中许多不同的层次。

And so one of the offerings she gave to the world was these images of her ancestors and what that meant to her and also land and people and the colonization of Mexico and a lot of different kind of layers of that.

但月亮与她家族的关联，确实体现在她的第十宫——事业以及她能够向世界呈现的内容上。

But the Moon in terms of how it connected to her family definitely showed up in her tenth house of career and what she was able to put out into the world.

是的。

Yeah.

这是她有意想要突出和聚焦的内容。

This is something that she deliberately wanted to like center and put the focus on.

是的。

Yeah.

这也让我想起，有时我会读到一些故事，说有两个兄弟姐妹在出生后被分开，由不同的家庭抚养。

That also reminds me of how sometimes I read these stories about you have two siblings that are separated at birth or something like different families.

然后有时他们在成年后相遇，发现彼此的性格特征惊人地相似，这一定是一种遗传的家庭特质，他们并没有有意识地去这样做，但这种特质却自然而然地成为他们性格的一部分，源于他们之前的家族背景。

Then sometimes they cross paths as adults and they find out that they have sometimes similar personality characteristics that are strikingly similar that must have then been some sort of inherited family characteristic that they don't consciously do in some sense, but it just is part of their personality through some sort of background that goes back before them.

每当我看到这样的故事时，我就会想到月亮。

And I think of the Moon sometimes when I when I see stories like that.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

如果能对那些可能是遗传因素或其表现方式的东西进行占星学比较，那会很有趣。

It'd be interesting to do astrological comparisons to what it is that's the thing that might be the genetic thing or the way in which that shows up.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

但只是想到那些可能通过家庭传递的东西，有时是好事，有时是挑战。

But just thinking of those things that are passed on maybe through families, which can sometimes be good things, can sometimes be challenging things.

但只是思考一下，家庭关系中传递了什么，或者你成长的早期环境是什么，它们如何以类似的方式塑造了你的某些个性特征——就像太阳自发地发光，而月亮则是接收光并将其反射回来，我们的月亮也是如此。

But just thinking about that notion of what was passed on from family connections in different ways or what was an early environment that you grew up in and how did that shape some personality things for you in the same way that it's like the Sun emits light spontaneously, but the Moon is receiving light and then reflecting it back in the same way for us in terms of our Moon.

有时这可能是接入点的差异所在。

Sometimes that can be part of the distinction of the access point.

是的。

Yeah.

所以当你看自己的星盘时，如果你使用这个应用，可以阅读关于太阳位置的所有信息，比如它落在哪个星座、宫位。

So you can think of when you look at your chart and look at your sun, if you go on the app, you can read about it, like all the things where it is, what it's placed.

然后你会想，好吧，这就是那个重要的、宏大的、闪耀夺目的事情，是我此生要追求的。

And then you think, okay, well, this is like the big, the big, yeah, the big like woo hoo thing, sparkly, shiny thing that I'm here to do.