天王星在占星学中的含义与象征

我想提一下这一点，因为我认为这很重要。

I wanted to bring that up just because I think it's important.

因为对我而言，塔纳斯认为普罗米修斯是更符合天王星的神话，更能体现它在占星学中的意义。

Because one of the implications for me, like Tarnas argues that Prometheus is a much better myth for Uranus and is more evocative for what it means in astrology.

我从中得出的结论部分是对这种观点的批评：也许仅仅默认某个随机占星师命名的天体神话，并不一定是理解其意义的最佳切入点。

The conclusion that I draw from that is partially a critique that maybe just taking for granted the mythology of the body that was named by some random astrologer, maybe that is not the best primary access point for understanding its meaning.

也许这样也没问题，你能从中获得一些洞见，但这不应该是我们理解这颗行星的首要和基础起点。

Maybe that's okay and you can gain some things from it, but maybe that shouldn't be our initial first and primary building block for understanding the planet.

我认为，就天王星和海王星而言，占星师们在很大程度上是独立于这些行星的神话来发现它们的意义的。

And I would argue that it really wasn't when it comes to Uranus and Neptune that astrologers figured out their meanings quite independent for the most part of the mythology of those planets.

是的。

Yeah.

我倾向于同意。

I would tend to agree.

然而，我也要说，海王星被命名为海王星，冥王星被命名为冥王星，这其中确实存在某种自洽的神秘性。

And yet, I would also say there is some pretty self referentially consistent magic that Neptune was named Neptune and that Pluto was named Pluto.

但同样地，我认为你所说的完全正确。

And yet, by the same token, I think what you're saying is absolutely true.

我认为我们真的需要从被神话传递给我们的内容中退一步，将其视为其中一个方面，但真正去关注这些行星本身正在发生什么。

I think that we really need to back up from what we've been handed through mythology and look at that as one aspect of it, but really look at what is going on with these planets.

所以在我们继续之前，你是否想特别提及理查德·塔纳斯著作中的其他内容？

So before we move on from this point, was there anything else you wanted to mention specifically from Richard Tarnas' work?

他的书名为《唤醒者普罗米修斯》，这实际上是他的第一本占星学著作。

His book was called Prometheus the Awakener, and that was actually one of his first astrology books.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

这并不完全是关于与普罗米修斯的联系，而只是非常有趣。他在书中写道，我研究了普罗米修斯式人物的出生星盘。

And this is not quite as much about connection to Prometheus it is just a really interesting So he's writing, I examined the natal planetary positions for Promethean figures.

他在书的前一章节中提到，弗洛伊德是一位普罗米修斯式的人物。

And he was talking about in a previous section of the book about Freud being a Promethean figure.

这些人是思想上的革命者。

These are people who are intellectual revolutionaries.

众所周知，普罗米修斯从众神那里偷来了火种并赐予人类。

Prometheus, as we know, stole fire from the gods and gave it to humans.

对于不了解的人，这个神话讲的是什么？

What is the myth of for those that don't know?

我不确定我能不能

I'm not sure I can

好的。

Okay.

我不确定自己是否有资格完整讲述整个神话。

I'm not sure I'd be qualified to do the whole myth.

好的。

Okay.

那这样就够了。

Well, that's good enough then.

他就是那个从众神那里偷走火种并赐予人类，随后因此受到惩罚的人。

He was the guy that stole fire from the gods and gave it to humans and then he was punished for

是的。

it.

然后他因为这件事受到了惩罚。

And then he was punished for it.

好的。

Okay.

但这里的关键是，塔尔纳斯说，我研究了那些具有普罗米修斯特质的人物的出生星盘。

But the point here is that So Tarnas is saying, I examined the natal planetary positions for Promethean figures.

例如，我检查了珀西·比希·雪莱的案例，因为他被明确地与普罗米修斯联系在一起，甚至被视为他的化身。

For example, I checked at once the case of Percy Bisselli since he was so explicitly associated, even identified with Prometheus.

他写了一首名为《解放的普罗米修斯》的史诗，并发现雪莱出生时太阳和天王星恰好紧密合相。

He wrote an epic poem called Prometheus Unbound And found that Shelley was in fact born with the Sun and Uranus in close conjunction.

他基本上说，他研究了科学革命的主要代表人物：哥白尼、开普勒、伽利略、笛卡尔和牛顿，因为这些人都在智力特质和文化角色上明显体现了普罗米修斯的原型。

He basically says he looked at chief protagonists of the Scientific Revolution, Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, Descartes, and Newton since these men all appeared to be unambiguous representatives of the Prometheus archetype in both their intellectual character and their cultural role.

在检查了这五个人的出生星盘后，我发现他们每个人出生时，天王星都与太阳形成了一个在传统容许度内的主要相位。

Upon checking their planetary positions at birth, I found that every one of these five was born with Uranus in a major aspect to the Sun well within conventional orbs.

他接着继续阐述，但关键点在于，科学革命期间有一个联系——我们常常忘记，开普勒的一项贡献是，他是第一个将人类思维扩展到神圣比例并加以量化的人。

And and he goes on from there, but that's the significant piece that there was this connection between scientific revolution of We forget that one of the things that Kepler did was that Kepler was the first human to extend human thought into the divine proportion with quantification.

因此，某种程度上，这就像从神那里偷取火种。

And so in a way, it was almost this kinda like stealing fire from the gods.

我们早就知道行星在运行，但开普勒给了我们工具，去思考神的思维，理解这些运动行星的规律与机制。

We knew the planets went round, but Kepler gave us tools to think the mind of God and understand what the laws, what the mechanics were of these moving planets.

因此，塔纳斯将天王星与这些普罗米修斯式的努力联系起来。

And so Tarnas relates Uranus to these Promethean efforts.

而且，如果你看看那些可以被视为普罗米修斯式人物的人的名单，他们某种程度上与革命或技术变革有关，这个名单相当长。

And there are mean, you look at the list of people who would be kind of Promethean characters who in some ways were associated with revolution or technological change, the list is quite long.

但即使是弗洛伊德和荣格这样不太科学、更多从意识角度出发的人，你也一再看到同样的模式。

But even people like Freud and Jung, both less scientific but more from a consciousness standpoint, you see that again and again and again.

好的。

Okay.

我们来看看。

Let's see.

在我们继续之前，不如我们先读一下塔纳斯的象征意义列表？

Before we move forward, why don't we just read Tarnas' list of significations?

我通常按时间顺序来，但我几乎觉得，也许我们应该先读一读他是怎么说的，以建立一个基础。

Usually, I go chronologically, but I almost feel like maybe we should read what he says about it to get a baseline.

嗯，实际上，不，我要倒回去。

Well, actually, no, I'm gonna back up.

抱歉，我要即兴发挥。

Sorry, I'm gonna do this on the fly.

相反，我想提出另一个观点，那就是对天王星的理解其实有更多实证基础。

Instead, I want to make the other point I want to make which is sort of arguing that there was more of an empirical basis for understanding Uranus.

我认为这一点的原因是，帕特里克·柯里的《先知的混乱》一书中有一个精彩的故事，副标题是《维多利亚与爱德华时代的占星术》，讲述的是占星术在17世纪于欧洲衰落之后、20世纪及19世纪末全面复兴之前的过渡时期。

One of the reasons I think this is there's a great story in Patrick Curry's book, A Confusion of Prophets, subtitled Victorian and Edwardian Astrology, talking about kind of the intermediate period of astrology after the decline of astrology in Europe in the seventeenth century and before its full blown revival in like the twentieth century and late nineteenth century.

所以他讲了一个关于占星家约翰·瓦利的故事，我想快速读一下。

So he has this story about this astrologer named John Varley, and I want to read it really quickly.

他以这个故事作为整个关于约翰·瓦利章节的开篇，因为这不仅是一个迷人的故事，更是一个深刻揭示天文学家如何在新行星被发现后逐步理解它们的洞见。

He opens his entire chapter on John Varley with this because it's always been such a not just a charming story, but an insightful story about how astrologers were actually starting to figure out the new planetary bodies after they were discovered.

明白了。

Got it.

好的。

All right.

所以帕特里克·柯里说，那是1825年6月21日的早晨。顺便说一下，这个故事很长，但其实只有一页半左右。

So Patrick Curry says, it is the morning This is a very long story by the way, so it's only like a page and a half though.

他说，那是1825年6月21日的早晨。

So he says, it is the morning of the 06/21/1825.

在他的工作室里——这是他在伦敦西区蒂奇菲尔德街租下的多个房间之一——艺术家约翰·瓦利又一次核对着当天的计算。

In his studio, one of the several rooms he had leased in the great Titchfield Street in London's West End, the artist John Varley is going over his calculations for the day yet again.

上午11点，他叫来了儿子阿尔伯特。

At 11:00, he calls for his son Albert.

瓦利把怀表交给他，让他去附近摄政街的一家钟表店，用格林威治时间精确校准怀表，格林威治时间。

Varley gives him his pocket watch telling him to take it to a watchmaker's in nearby Regent Street and have it set precisely by Greenwich time, Greenwich time.

当年轻人回来时，他父亲仍在房间里来回踱步。

When the young man returns, his father is still pacing up and down the room.

最后，瓦利说：我搞不明白。

Finally, Varley remarks, I can't make it out.

他向困惑的儿子解释说，那天他的星盘中有一个邪恶相位，将在中午前几分钟开始生效。

He explains to his bewildered son that there is an evil aspect in his horoscope that day which comes into operation at a few minutes to noon.

问题在于威胁他的行星是天王星，而天王星刚刚被发现，他说，占星家们还未能充分理解它。

The problem is that the planet menacing him is Uranus which having only been recently discovered, he says is not yet properly understood by astrologers.

他对这一相位的解读只显示，危险将是突然且严重的。

His reading of the aspect has revealed only that the danger will be sudden and serious.

因此，他已决定取消上午的约会，待在室内。

Therefore, he has already decided to forego his morning's appointment and stay indoors.

但危险是针对我个人还是我的财产，他总结道，我无法确定。

But whether the danger is to me personally or to my property, he concludes, I cannot tell.

12点临近，瓦利变得更加焦躁不安，他的儿子也愈发担忧。

12:00 approaches, Varley becomes still more restless and his son more worried.

快到中午时，他坐下来，说：我感觉很好。

At a few minutes before noon, he sits down and says, I feel quite well.

我没什么问题。

There's nothing the matter with me.

我是不是弄错了？

Could I have made a mistake?

他伸手去拿他的文件和铅笔。

And reaches for his papers and a pencil.

就在这时，外面传来着火的呼喊声。

At that moment, there's a cry of fire from outside.

他们冲到街上，却发现是他们自己的房子着火了——火源来自隔壁的钢琴厂。

They run out into the street only to discover that it is their own house that is in flames from a fire at the piano factory next door.

瓦利的反应是欣喜和满足。

Varley's response is delight and satisfaction.

令他儿子震惊的是，他立即回到书桌前，写下自己这一发现的简要记录。

To his son's consternation, he immediately returns to his desk to write a quick account of his discovery.

到一切结束时，瓦利失去了他的家和所有财产，而这些财产都没有投保。

By the time it is all over, Varley has lost his home and all of his property, none of which was insured.

然而，在他看来，更重要的是，他验证了自己计时方法的精确性以及这颗新行星所蕴含的邪恶可能性。

More importantly, however, in his view, he has verified both the precision of his methods of timing and the evil potentialities of the new planet.

后来，画家科普利·菲尔丁遇见瓦利，问他损失是否严重。

Meeting Varley later, the painter Copely Fielding asked if the loss was serious.

不，他回答说。

No, he replied.

只是房子被烧毁了。

Only the house burned down.

我知道会发生点什么。

I knew something would happen.

太棒了。

Brilliant.

这就是帕特里克·柯里书中讲述的约翰·瓦利的故事。

That is the story of John Varley from Patrick Curry's book.

我觉得这真的很有趣。

And I think that's really funny.

无论在多大程度上这是真的，它都让我对占星家们如何试图通过将这颗新天体纳入出生星盘、观察它与其他行星的相位或关联，或通过行运时间等方式来理解这颗新天体有了一些认识。

To whatever extent that is true, it gives me some idea of how astrologers were trying to understand this new body by putting it in natal charts and seeing what other planets it was aspecting or connecting with or by looking at it in terms of timing through transits or who knows what else.

因此，他们通过在自己生活中反复的经历和实验得出了结论。

And as a result of that, they were drawing conclusions after repeated experiences and experiments within their own lives.

这正是他们今天仍在做的事情。

Which is what they do even today.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

这很直接，本质上就是一种经验主义，一种通过实践观察事物的科学经验主义，而不是通过抽象的哲学或神话方式得出结论。

Which is straightforward and that's basically fundamentally sort of empiricism, a sort of scientific empiricism by looking at things in practice as opposed to, let's say, drawing a conclusion through abstract either philosophical or through mythological means.

对。

Right.

当你读到这些时，我脑海中浮现出瓦利这个人物的形象。

And as you read that, I got this picture of Varley as being a character.

我认为，在现代媒体中，最能体现天王星特质的角色之一，就是《回到未来》里的博士。

I think maybe one of the best personifications of the planet Uranus in modern media is doc in Back to the Future,

是的，克里斯托弗·洛伊德。

Yeah, Christopher Lloyd.

没错。

Exactly.

约翰·瓦利身上就有这种气质。

And John Varley kind of had that.

那如果房子着火了呢？

So what if the house burned down?

天啊，这太棒了。

Man, this is amazing.

看我发现了什么。

Look what I'm figuring out.

我的意思是，这种能量就像那种可能并不疯狂的疯狂科学家。

I mean, it's that same kind of energy of the mad scientist who maybe is not mad.

也许周围的世界才是疯狂的，而那个疯狂的科学家——我的意思是，在《回到未来》里，你永远无法确定多克是真的疯了，还是他所做的一切其实都是有道理的。

Maybe the world around the person is mad and that mad scientist I mean, you don't ever know in Back to the Future whether Doc is truly crazy or whether everything that he's doing is really he's really doing it.

是的。

Yeah.

而这就是天王星的特点，它正处于那个边缘上。

And that's the thing about Uranus is that it's on that edge.

特立独行的天才原型。

The eccentric genius archetype.

对，非常符合。

Yeah, very much.

好吧。

All right.

那我们来谈谈一些象征意义吧。

So let's get into some significations.

当然。

Sure.

视角。

Views.

这里有一些天王星的照片。

Here's just some pictures of Uranus.

这张是NASA拍的，这是另一张。

This is one from NASA, and here's another one.

这是旅行者二号拍的。

This is from Voyager two.

由于反射光线的方式，天王星在我们眼中呈现出一种青绿色、淡蓝绿色的色调。

So Uranus appears because of the way it reflects light, it appears as this sort of cyan, sort of light bluish green color to us basically.

是的。

Yeah.

它的表面具有很高的反射率。

It has a very high reflective surface.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这个词是反照率，我相信这是天文学中描述其反射率的术语。

I think the word for that is the albedo, I believe is the astronomical word for its reflectivity.

好的。

Okay.

我相信你说的。

I'll take your word for that.

好吧。

All right.

所以，我们通常在本系列中从最早的占星家开始，一直追溯到最后一颗行星土星，我们曾回溯到公元二世纪的占星家瓦伦斯。

So the first astrologer, we usually start out by going through previously in this series all the way up until the last planetary Saturn, we were able to go back and do the second second century astrologer Vadius Valens.

但我们这次做不到。

We can't do that.

我只回溯了一个世纪，找到了一位我所能找到的早期占星家，即塞法里尔，他的著作《1898年新占星术手册》。

I went back only about a century to one of the earlier astrologers I could find which was Sepharial and his book A New Manual of Astrology from 1898.

是的。

Yep.

好。

All right.

所以我读了上一本。

So I read the last one.

你想读这一本吗？

Do you wanna read this one?

当然。

Sure.

当然。

Sure.

天王星赋予建设性和机械性的才能、突如其来的变化、疏远、悲伤、流放、敌意、不确定的运势以及盲目的冲动。

Uranus gives constructive and mechanical ability, sudden changes, estrangements, sorrows, exiles, enmities, uncertain fortunes, and blind impulses.

它使人的性格反复无常、古怪、冲动、机智且富有创造力，立场坚定、爱批评、讽刺、以自我为中心、浪漫、英勇，并在许多方面显得奇特。

It makes its subject erratic, eccentric, impulsive, ingenious, and inventive, firm in opinion, critical, sarcastic, self centered, romantic, heroic, and many ways and and in many ways peculiar.

奇特。

Peculiar.

我喜欢这一点。

I like that.

是的。

Yeah.

行星管辖范围：天王星掌管灾难、突发事件、变化、丧亲、自杀、浪漫、悲剧和公共事务。

Planetary dominions, Uranus rules catastrophes, sudden events, changes, bereavement, bereavements, suicides, romances, tragedies, and public affairs.

行星职业：讲师、公共官员、政府或市政官员、旅行者、工程师、发明家、专利持有人，所有从事不寻常职业的人，如占星家、电工、催眠师。

Planetary occupations, lecturers, public functionaries, government or civic officials, travelers, engineers, inventors, patentees, all of whom follow uncommon pursuits such as astrologers, electricians, mesmerists.

哦，这个词我们很少听到了。

Oh, there's a good word we don't hear a lot.

催眠师、颅相学家，还有一个，通灵者、形而上学家和心理学家。

Mesmerists, phrenologists, another one, spirit mediums, metaphysicians, and psychologists.

还有那些经营电气设备、科学仪器等的人。

Also, those who deal in electrical apparatus, scientific mechanism, etcetera.

是的。

Yeah.

那些都是

Those are

都很棒。

all good.

不错。

Nice.

好的。

Alright.

所以你知道，那份清单里有很多非常熟悉的内容，因为那已经是大约一百二十二年前的事了。

So, you know, that list, there's a lot of really familiar things because that's what, a hundred and twenty two something odd years ago now.

你知道，清单上有很多核心内容，至今仍然是占星师们与天王星关联的事物。

You know, there's a lot of core things on there that are still things I think that astrologers associate with Uranus today.

非常直接地表明，到了二十世纪初，大约1900年的时候，占星家们已经对天王星有了相当不错的理解。

Very straightforward showing that by, you know, the turn, the beginning of the twentieth century by like 1,900, astrologers had gotten Uranus down relatively well.

他们基本已经弄清楚了天王星的核心含义，而这些含义至今大体上保持一致，我们稍后就会看到。

They'd figured out for the most part what its core meanings were and those meanings have largely stayed consistent up to today as we'll see.

其中有一些内容是特定时代的产物，比如提到催眠术，或者是一些在过去一个世纪里逐渐被淡化、现在占星家们不太再与天王星关联起来的东西。

There are a few things on there that are either sort of period specific like talking about mesmerism or that are things that maybe have dropped out a little bit over the past century that astrologers maybe don't associate with Uranus as much at this point.

但总体而言，当时的理解已经相当扎实了。

But for the most part, was pretty solid there.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得有趣的是，他当时就已经把天王星与电气设备联系起来了。

And I find it interesting that he already associates it with electrical apparatus.

我想讲一个非常简短的小故事，我认为这是另一个典型的天王星故事。

And I'd like to just tell a very quick brief story that I think is another telling Uranian story.

那就是回到天王星被发现的时候，人们正在摆弄电。

And that is going back to the discovery of Uranus people messing around with electricity.

整个十九世纪，有法拉第、赫兹和麦克斯韦这些人，他们不仅探索电，还逐步深入到了我们现在所知的电磁学领域。

Then through the nineteenth century, had Faraday and Hertz and Maxwell and these people that were not only exploring electricity but also poking their way into what we now know of as electromagnetism.

回到十八世纪末、十九世纪初，科学研究者们心中最大的问题是：电和磁之间是否存在某种关系？

And going back to the very late eighteenth century, very early nineteenth century, the big question on scientific investigators' minds was what is the relationship or is there a relationship between electricity and magnetism?

他们隐约感觉到两者之间存在某种联系，但当时还没有任何实证方法来探究它们之间的关系。

That somehow they knew that there was something connecting them, but there was no empirical approach to trying to figure out what their relationship was.

好的。

Okay.

当时有一位科学家——他们那时被称为自然哲学家，而不是科学家——在丹麦哥本哈根的一所大学授课，正在讲解我认为当时是迈克尔·法拉第等人关于电的研究工作。

And a scientist actually at that time they were called natural philosophers, not scientists, teaching something that we would maybe call physics at a university in Copenhagen in Denmark was doing a lecture about the work of I think at that time Michael Faraday and some of these people who were exploring electricity.

他设置了一个闭合电路，其中包含一个电压表（用于测量电流）和一个电池。

And he had a closed circuit with a voltmeter which measures electrical current with a battery in the circuit.

他演示了当电路闭合时，电压表会显示出电流的存在。

And he showed that when he completed the circuit, the voltmeter registered electrical current.

而当他断开电路时，就没有任何电流被检测到。

And when he disconnected it, there was no registering of any current.

当他断开电池完成电路时，电压表没有显示任何电流。

And when he completed the circuit without the battery, there was no registering of any current.

但他桌上放着一块磁铁。

But he had this magnet that was just on the table.

当他讲话时，把磁铁移到了导线上方。

And as he's talking, he brings the magnet over the wire.

这是一场公开讲座。

And this is in a public lecture.

他发现，当他在导线上方前后移动磁铁时，电压表显示出了电流。

And he realizes that as he moves the magnet over the wire back and forth, the voltmeter is registering electrical current.

他直接领悟到了电与磁的关系——电磁学。

And he literally went electricity magnetism, electromagnetism.

这件事发生在1821年，那一年天王星与海王星呈对冲状态。

This was in 1821, the year of a Uranus Neptune opposition.

好的。

Okay.

很疯狂的是，我们现代人知道天王星是与电能相关的行星。

And it's crazy that we moderners know that Uranus is the planet that's associated with electrical energy.

我们稍后会再多谈这一点。

We'll say more about that later.

我们知道海王星则更与我们所谓的磁能相关。

And we know that Neptune is the planet that's associated more so with what we might call magnetic energy.

事实上，我认为甚至塞法里尔也评论过催眠术，这些在现代占星学中都属于海王星的范畴。

And in fact, I think that even Sepharial's commenting on mesmerism and those are more Neptunian things in modern astrology.

但当时还没有明确区分出海王星，虽然它其实已经存在。

But there was no Neptune yet to Well, there was, but there wasn't really segregated out.

然而，‘电磁’这个词以及电磁的概念却在天王星（电）与海王星（磁）的某种关系下出现了。

And yet, the word electromagnetism and the concept of electromagnetism came about at a Uranus electricity Neptune.

我说的是冲相，但我认为在1821年实际是合相。

I said opposition, but I believe it was a conjunction in '21.

是的，应该是那样。

Yeah, it would have been.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

所以对我来说，这本身就是一个令人惊叹的故事。

So to me, that's an incredible story unto itself.

好。

Yeah.

我喜欢这一点。

I like that.

电力，尤其是在天王星被发现后的几个世纪里，已经成为生活中极其重要且不可或缺的一部分，彻底改变了人们的日常生活，比如能够随时在房间里开灯，在夜晚有光亮，而以前

Electricity and certainly in the past you know, couple of centuries after the discovery of Uranus, electricity has become this hugely important and integral piece of life that's kind of revolutionized like even, you know, living day to day, the ability to turn on a light in your room to have light at night when it's not naturally daytime out because previously

拥有收音机、电视、电脑。

you To have radios, to have television, to have computers.

我的意思是，所有事物在某种程度上都是由电力设备驱动的。

I mean, everything is driven in some way by electrical apparatus at some level.

是的。

Yeah.

科技有时能够改善或改变生活，而这种剧烈且快速的变化，正是天王星的典型特征。

Technology is something that can sometimes improve life or change life and to change it radical change, but also very quick, fast paced change is something very much associated with Uranus.

我们之前提到过吉星，比如金星和木星，它们通常代表成长或木星所象征的扩张，但这种成长往往更缓慢、更有机。

We had the benefics, we had Venus and Jupiter which tend to represent growth or Jupiter with expansion, But growth tends to be a little bit more slow and Organic.

建立在……是的。

Building on Yeah.

有机的。

Organic.

这说法很好。

That's a good one.

而天王星则具有这种人工性与快速性，是一种近乎光速的特性。

Whereas Uranus has this artificial component and this rapid component that's light speed sort of component.

对。

Yes.

我认为‘光速’这个词很重要，因为当我们谈论天王星时，实际上是在谈论即时性，或者至少是它的表象。

And I think light speed is an important word because when we talk about Uranus, we actually talk about instantaneity or at least the appearance of it.

与磁性不同，磁性会形成一个场。

Unlike magnetism, magnetism creates a field.

当你靠近它时，你会感受到这个场。

As you get closer to it, you feel the field.

你会有一种感觉。

You get a sense.

你会产生一种吸引力。

You get a feeling.

你可能会被磁铁吸引。

You can get a pull on the magnet.

催眠术、 mesmerism，所有这些都属于这一类。

Mesmerism, hypnotism, all of that.

我应该指出，塞法里尔的文章实际上是在一个每四百年才出现一次的海王星与冥王星合相的十年间撰写的。

And I should note that Sepharial's piece was actually written during the decade of the with a once every four hundred year Neptune Pluto conjunction.

所以，不管他写的是什么，都通过了当时人们尚不知晓的海王星与冥王星合相这一滤镜。

And so regardless of what he was writing, it was also coming through this filter of a Neptune Pluto conjunction that they didn't know about then yet.

对。

Right.

但这种观点认为，电是突然发生的。

But this idea that electricity is sudden.

你有一个电路，它要么开，要么关。

You have an electrical circuit, it's on or off.

对。

Right.

你不需要给电路预热。

You don't need to warm up the engine on an electrical circuit.

当我们刚开始录制这次对话时，停电是瞬间发生的。

When the power went out when we were beginning to record this session, it was instantaneous.

就像闪电一样。

Like lightning.

就像一道闪电，是的。

Like a lightning bolt, yeah.

关于闪电与天王星的关联，我想稍后再深入探讨，因为这对于我们理解天王星的本质至关重要，但它的特点是瞬时发生的。

And that whole thing of lightning being related to Uranus, I wanna save that for a little bit because there's a deeper dive on how important that is to understanding how Uranus works, but it's instantaneous.

没有渐进的过程。

There is no graduation.

塞法里尔对此描述得很到位。

And Sepharial has it down.

这就是为什么它出人意料。

That's why it's unexpected.

它是突然的。

It's sudden.

他用了另一个词：盲目的冲动、 erratic、 eccentric、 impulsive。

It's he used another word, blind impulses, erratic eccentric impulsive.

你无法预料它。

You can't expect it.

就像闪电一样，可能风暴正在酝酿，你会以为闪电即将发生，但你永远无法预知下一次闪电何时出现、会击中哪里。

Like lightning, there can be a storm going on and you can think that lightning is gonna happen and then it happens, but you never know when the next strike is gonna be or where it's gonna strike.

它具有瞬间性和不确定性这一整套特质。

It has that whole element of of instantaneous and uncertain.

是的。

Yeah.

所以他说，他的第二个观点就是突然的变化。

So he said Well, his very second one was sudden changes.

是的。

Yeah.

后来他又说，突然的事件和变化。

And then later he says, sudden events changes.

因此，‘突然的变化’是天王星最核心的特质之一。

So sudden changes is a great core Uranus one in terms of top level Uranus archetypes.

‘突然的变化’一定是天王星原型中最核心的特征之一。

That's gotta be one of the core ones is sudden changes.

这与土星或木星不同，因为木星的成长属性是有机的。

Different than Saturn or Jupiter because Jupiter growth aspect of Jupiter was organic.

它有一种运动感，即使在旅行和教育的概念中，也涉及一个过程，木星几乎就像吹气球一样。

There was a movement to it Even in its concept of traveling and education, I mean, there was a process involved in Jupiter almost like blowing up a balloon.

你可以看到它逐渐变大。

You could watch it getting bigger.

土星在其业力层面也是如此，你得到的是你应得的，但并非一定是即时的。

And Saturn also was Saturn in its karmic aspect, you get what you deserve, but it wasn't necessarily instantaneous.

是的，会有即时的业报找上你，但我认为这可能意味着某种程度上涉及了天王星，因为土星本身在做出裁决时是缓慢的。

Yes, there was instant karma is gonna get you, but I would imagine that that meant Uranus was involved somehow because Saturn itself took its time in delivering its verdict.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，即使在印度语境中，业力通常也不是即时的。

I mean, even karma in an Indian context is not something that's usually instant.

它可能跨越多生多世才得以实现。

It can be delivered over lifetimes.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

所以这种突然变化的概念，比如技术上的变革。

So that idea of sudden changes also, you know, changes in technology.

技术已经经历了如此迅速的变革，而且就像我上个月和西尔维娅做火星那一期之后想到的，后来我又和萨姆做了木星那一期，嗯。

There's been such a rapid change in technology and in Like in the older tradition, something I was thinking about after doing the Mars episode with Sylvia last month, and then I also did the Jupiter episode with with Sam Mhmm.

雷诺兹。

Reynolds.

我之前没有充分强调的一点是，在传统占星学中，火星非常迅速，它会加速它所接触的一切，而火星也与热量和过热相关；相比之下，土星则与过冷相关，土星倾向于减缓事物。理解火星和土星的一个基本动态非常有用，那就是区分加速事物和减缓事物。

And one thing that I didn't emphasize as much as I would have liked is that Mars in traditional astrology is very fast, and it speeds up whatever it touches versus And it's associated with heat and excessive heat, whereas Saturn is associated with excessive cold and Saturn tends to slow So things part of the basic dynamic that you can understand Mars and Saturn in very that's very useful is just understanding something that speeds things up versus something that slows things down.

这里有人开过车吗？

Anyone here ever drive a car?

我的意思是，油门和刹车。

I mean, it's accelerator and the brake.

它们俩就是这样协同工作的，或者常常不协同——我们踩油门太猛，结果冲出道路；或者踩刹车太晚、太用力，结果撞上了什么东西。

That's how the two of them work in tandem or often not in tandem where we hit the accelerator too much and go off the road or we hit the brake too hard and too late and we crash into something.

但这就是冷热、刹车或油门的关系。

But it is that hot cold gas brake or accelerator brake.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

在传统占星术中，关于快速与缓慢的概念已经存在于传统行星之中，但天王星引入了快速前进或突然飞跃的特性，尤其是在科技领域。

So there are already ideas of quickness versus slowness in traditional astrology with the traditional planets, but Uranus introduced this component of rapid forward or rapid leaps forward especially in technology.

甚至在旅行方面，如果你想想科技和机器如何极大地扩展了出行——从蒸汽机，到后来的蒸汽火车，再到

Even in travel, if you think about how much travel has expanded through the use of technology through machines, for steam engines, through eventually steam trains, through

当然。

Absolutely.

回到19世纪50年代天王星进入白羊座的时候，想想那个时期，大概是1850年代到1860年代。

Go back to when Uranus was in Aries in the 1850s, think, maybe 1850s, 1860s, right in that period of time.

当时有位叫塞缪尔·莫尔斯的人，带着他的想法去见国会，他演示了如何通过电线瞬间传送电信号到遥远的地方。

And you had this guy Samuel Morse who came to Congress with this idea that he had that he demonstrated that could send electrical impulses instantaneously over long distances if they were wired.

国会对此发明感到震惊，于是拨款——当时这是一笔巨款，大约两万美元——用于修建一条连接巴尔的摩和华盛顿特区的电报线路。

And Congress was so amazed by this invention that they allocated at then which was a small fortune, it was something like $20,000 to create an electrical line connecting Baltimore and Washington DC.

一旦这条线路建成，一条信息从巴尔的摩发送到华盛顿特区，而一个月前，这条信息需要一到一天半的时间骑马才能送达，现在却瞬间到达。

And at that moment, once that was completed, a message was sent from Baltimore to Washington DC that a month earlier would have taken a day and a half or a day by horseback to Now get the message all of a sudden was instantaneous.

整个美国迅速布满了沿着铁路线延伸的电线，这种变化令人震惊。

And it was mind blowing how quickly the entire United States was strung up with electrical wires that followed basically railroad tracks.

这是最简便的方法。

That was the easiest way to do it.

没错。

Right.

但后来还有跨大西洋电缆，以及通信能力，你有没有听过那句老话，说这就像中国茶叶的价格一样无关紧要？

But then even transatlantic cables and the ability to communicate, you know that saying that this is as irrelevant as the cost of tea in China?

其实，当人们能够得知中国茶叶收成的价值时，最快的飞剪船只要抢先得知消息，就能在市场中大赚一笔——知道该押注高价还是低价。

Well, there's this whole idea that when one was able to know what the value of the crop was in China, the tea crop, the clipper ships, the first one back to London could make fortunes on the market by knowing whether it was to bet on good prices or bad prices.

好的。

Okay.

突然之间，这一切都变得瞬时可达了。

And all of a sudden that was instantaneous.

因此，电报通过摩尔斯电码将整个地球迅速缩小成一个点，一个瞬间可达的点，这令人难以置信。

And so how quickly electricity through Morse code shrunk the planet to a dot, to a point

对。

Right.

这简直令人震惊。

Is mind boggling.

而我们现代人往往不会这样去思考，因为我们上网发一封邮件给上海或布宜诺斯艾利斯的人，根本不会觉得有什么特别。

And again, we moderners don't necessarily think on that scale because we go online and send an email to someone in Shanghai or Buenos Aires and we don't think anything of it.

我们收到回复，与世界各地的人进行Zoom会议，但在电力出现之前，情况截然不同。

We get a reply, we have a Zoom meeting with people all over the world and yet it was very different pre electricity.

是的。

Yeah.

几个世纪以来，沟通一直非常缓慢，但突然之间，它变得迅速了。

Communication used to be a lot slower for for centuries and centuries and centuries, and then all of a sudden it was quick.

快如闪电。

It was lightning quick.

快如闪电。

Lightning quick.

是的。

Yeah.

这非常重要。

So that's very important.

我们接下来来看其中一个片段吧，我们将跳过几十年，来到德国占星师莱因霍尔德·埃伯廷和他的著作《恒星影响的组合》，该书于1940年出版。

Why don't we move on to one of our next excerpts which we're gonna jump forward a few decades to the German astrologer Reinhold Ebertin and his book The Combination of Stellar Influences which was published in 1940.

这本书对许多后来的现代占星师，比如罗布·汉德和理查德·塔纳斯等人，产生了深远影响。

And this is very influential in a number of later modern astrologers like Rob Hand and Richard Tarnas and others.

这是一些原因所在。

That's one of the reasons why

哦，一本重要的书。

Oh, an important book.

我的意思是，大多数现代占星师都会回过头来参考这本书，以获取一些基本的意象，尽管在某些情况下它的内容可能比一些现代人愿意接受的更为严峻。

I mean, a book that most modern astrologers go back to for some very basic imagery, although it may be more dire in some cases than some moderners would like.

没错。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，这就是原文。

So here it is.

他说：天王星的原则是突发性、革命与变化；心理对应方面，他给出了正面的含义。

He says, The principle of Uranus is suddenness, revolution, and change, Psychological correspondence, plus side, he gives positive ones.

他说，独特性、独立性、对自由的热爱、独立的行动与思想、对一切新颖或现代事物的热情、敏捷性或活动性。

He says, peculiarity, independence, a love of freedom, independent action and ideas, enthusiasm for everything that is new or modern, agility or motility.

我不明白什么是活动性。

I don't know what that means, mobility.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

良好的感知力、直觉与客观判断力相结合、容易兴奋、节奏感；负面心理对应：固执的性格、缺乏适应性、叛逆、革命倾向、易激动的本性、冲动行为、强烈的情感张力、对创新的热衷、性格多变。

Good powers of perception, intuition allied with objective judgment, easy excitability, a sense of rhythm, negative psychological correspondence, an obstinate nature, lack of adaptability, rebellion, revolutionary tendencies, an excitable nature, impulsive actions, strong emotional tensions, passions for innovation, changeability of character.

最后，他还给出了生理对应：节奏、与神经系统、脑膜、垂体腺以及脊髓的关联。

And then finally, gives biological correspondences, rhythm, connections with the nervous system, with the meninges or membranes of the brain, with the pituitary gland, and with the spinal marrow.

是的。

Yeah.

这就是莱因霍尔德·埃伯廷，我们在这里开始看到一些天王星核心含义的逐渐成型，这些含义在现代占星术中变得极为普遍，尤其是他提到的前几项：突然性、革命与变化。

So that's Reinhold Ebertin, and here we start to get more of a crystallization of some of the core meanings of Uranus that became so common in modern astrology, especially the first ones that he mentions, which are just suddenness, revolution, and change.

是的。

Yeah.

但他现在还建立了天王星的电性与人体神经系统之间的联系，虽然他没有用这些词，但神经系统本身也是电性的。

But also, he's also now making a connection between the electrical he doesn't say it in these words, but he's making a connection between the electrical nature of Uranus and the nervous system in the human body which is electrical in nature.

好的。

Okay.

因此，水星和天王星之间存在某种关系。

And so there's a relationship between Mercury and Uranus.

事实上，关于行星八度音程的概念，有人认为外行星是水星、金星和火星的更高八度，而天王星是水星的更高八度。

In fact, the concept of planetary octaves, there are those who say that the outer planets are higher octaves of Mercury, Venus, and Mars and that Uranus is the higher octave of Mercury.

但你看，水星代表思想，而天王星代表思想的传播。

But you see Mercury is the thought and Uranus is the distribution of the thought.

这就是神经系统。

It's it's it's the nervous system.

因此，那些属于外胚层体型、高挑瘦削、像伊卡博德或鹤一样具有水星特质的人，其神经系统能量往往高度紧张，而这正是天王星所关联的，这是我们第一次看到这种联系。

So people who are ectomorphs, are tall, thin, Ichabod, crane kind of mercurial maybe even in nature, there is a high strung nervous system energy that is associated with the planet of Uranus and that's the first we see of that.

是的，这个观点非常好，那种高度紧张的状态。

Yeah, that's a really good point, sort of high strungness.

好的。

Okay.

关于革命，这一点之前已经提到过，但我认为值得再回顾一下，因为占星师们经常谈到并最终引用美国的诞生，即《独立宣言》于1776年签署的事件。

So with revolution, this is already mentioned, but I think it's worth going back to because astrologers often talk about and end up invoking The United States and the birth of The United States where the Declaration of Independence was way back in 1776.

所以我要展示一下西尔伯图表。

So I'm gonna put up the Sibley chart.

我不清楚美国出生时间的具体偏好。

I don't know what preference of US Yeah.

这是美国《独立宣言》签署时的西尔伯星盘，日期为1776年7月4日。

So here's The US Sibley chart for the signing of the Declaration of Independence for 07/04/1776.

这个星盘的上升星座是射手座，天王星位于双子座，火星也大致位于双子座，差不多在第七宫，姑且这么认为。

And it has Sagittarius rising and it has Uranus in Gemini with Mars also in Gemini roughly about in the seventh house, let's just give or take.

它还有巨蟹座的星群以及其他配置，但这里的关键不仅在于天王星在美国星盘中的显著位置，更在于美国建国时间与天王星在那个世纪被发现的时间如此接近。

It has a Cancer stellium and everything else, but part of the thing here is not just the prominence of Uranus in The United States chart, but just the fact that The United States was founded so close to the discovery of Uranus in that century.

而且这个星盘中的月亮位于水瓶座，这可能是一个简短的讨论，我们稍后几分钟会谈到，即现代行星守护关系的问题——是否使用它们，以及天王星与水瓶座的所谓关联，美国西尔伯星盘中月亮位于水瓶座显然与此相关。

And that the Moon in that chart is in Aquarius and this is probably a short discussion we'll come to in a few minutes and that is the whole issue of modern planetary rulerships and whether one uses them or not, the alleged association of Uranus with Aquarius and the Moon in Aquarius in The US Sibley chart obviously is a piece of that.

对，这个观点说得非常好。

Yeah, that's a really good point.

不过这种革命性的理念，对于当时的美国殖民地来说绝对是一件惊天动地的大事——居然直接宣布咱们独立了。

But that notion of revolutionary because that was such a big deal at the time for The US colonies to just announce we're We're free.

咱们自由了。

We're free.

没错。

Yeah.

而且我们宣布脱离国王、脱离英国，也就是不列颠王国，成为独立的国家。

And that we're declaring our independence from the king and from the British or The UK.

对。

Yeah.

而且显然，当我们回溯这些问题的时候，我们需要以现代的视角意识到，当时那个“自由”的概念存在文化层面的局限性。

And obviously, when we look at these issues retroactively, we just need to in our modern sense be aware of the cultural limitations of what that concept of freedom meant then.

我的意思是，大家都明白，实际上这个自由说白了只是白人土地所有者的自由。

I mean, you know, the fact is that it meant freedom for white landowners, you know, I mean, in effect.

但有趣的是，《独立宣言》的主要作者托马斯·杰斐逊是个白羊座，他写下‘我自由了，这就是我’这样的宣言。

And and yet it's also interesting that, the primary author of the Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson, was an Aries, you know, writing a declaration of I'm free, screw This is who I am.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，即使在《独立宣言》的撰写者内部，对于奴隶制是否应该被提及也存在分歧。

And I think there were tensions even amongst the writers and authors of the Declaration of Independence about whether slavery Oh, should be yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

至少有一种观念或冲动，就是挣脱束缚你的东西，宣告自己的独立——这种冲动在国家层面上体现得尤为明显。

At least there was that notion or there's that impulse of throwing off the shackles of something that's holding you back and declaring your independence that that is something that that's on a very large scale of like a country.

但当一个人的星盘中天王星特别突出时，这种追求独立、反叛的冲动可能会在他们的生命或性格中表现得非常强烈；或者当一个人经历重要的天王星相位，比如天王星过上升点或中天时，也会产生类似的冲动——渴望自由，想要打破当时所感知到的一切限制，而这恰恰与土星的特质形成对比：土星是环状行星，也是可见行星中的最后一个，而天王星出现后，突然就彻底颠覆了我们过去对可见行星和可感知世界的认知。

But when a person has either let's say Uranus prominent in their chart, that's gonna be an impulse that might maybe as prominent either in their life or in their personality of independence or rebelliousness or when a person has a major Uranus transit, like Uranus going over their Ascendant or their Midheaven, there's gonna be also that impulse of seeking freedom and wanting to throw off whatever their perceived restrictions are at the time, which is very much a Saturn type thing where you have Saturn as the ringed planet and the last of the visible planets and then after that comes Uranus and Uranus just blows sort of the restrictions that we thought were there up until that point out of the water in terms of what the visible planets were and what the perceptible world is all of a sudden.

而且，它也改变了我们真正能够反抗的对象。

And also, it changes what we can actually rebel against.

这意味着，在天王星出现之前，人们根本不会想到个体能拥有如此大的自由去实现这种程度的挣脱。

Meaning that prior to Uranus, there was no thought of the individual having that much freedom to actually take on that level of breaking free.

这引出了另一个问题：我们现代人对行星的看法有时比古代观点单一，因为现代行星的观念削弱了旧有行星的内涵。

And that brings up another issue of how we moderners have views of the planet that are sometimes one dimensional compared to their older views because modern planets have taken away from the old planet.

以天王星为例，因为在天王星被发现之前，土星本身也具有革命性的特质。

And the example with Uranus' prime here because prior to the discovery of Uranus, Saturn had a revolutionary aspect too.

我的意思是，土星代表权威和规则，但科学家们都是土星人，因为他们足够了解规则，知道哪些规则可以被弯曲、打破或改变。

I mean, it was the authority and the rules, but scientists were Saturnians because they knew enough about the rules that they knew where they could be bent or broken or changed.

而我们现代人却把土星简化为一种你被困住、永远无法挣脱的状态。

And so we moderners put Saturn now in this you're stuck and you can never break out of anything.

但事实上，在天王星被发现之前，土星本身运作得很好，也具备天王星的特质。

Whereas the fact of the matter was Saturn did fine before Uranus was discovered and had a Uranian aspect to it also.

火星也是如此，当冥王星被分配给水象的天蝎座后，火星就失去了其情感层面的含义。

The same case could be made with Mars losing its emotionality as Pluto was given to watery Scorpio.

因此，许多现代人把火星视为战士，而不是把火星看作爱人。

Therefore, many moderners think of Mars as the warrior rather than Mars as the lover, so to speak.

木星和海王星也是如此。

And the same with Jupiter and Neptune.

我的意思是，尽管这些关联是成立的，但现代人往往把木星简化为逻辑、理性与信仰，而忽略了它曾经所具有的情感与想象力，直到现代行星被发现之前，木星一直兼具这两种功能。

I mean, though these affinities work, we moderners tend to reduce Jupiter to the logic and the rational and the beliefs rather than the emotional and imagination that it was, that it did double duty until the modern planets were discovered.

是的。

Yeah.

这确实是个关键观点，并引出了几个值得讨论的问题。

That's really a point and it brings up a few discussion points.

好的。

Okay.

在讨论之前，我想最后说一点：我一直觉得，在谈到行星守护关系时，罗布·汉德写过一些内容，我想说的是，这些内容收录在他的论文集中。

One last thing I want to say before the discussion is that I've always found it curious that in talking about rulerships that Rob Hand wrote and I wanna say it's in essays

顺便说一句，这已经跑题了。

This is a big digression by the way.

你马上就要提到

You're gonna bring

不，等等，他提出过这样一个观点：在所有现代守护关系或我更喜欢称的‘关联’中，天王星与水瓶座的关联是最站不住脚的。

up No, Well, he brought up the point that of all the modern rulerships or associations is the word I like to use, the association of Uranus to Aquarius was the least tenable.

我从未理解这一点，因为我一直觉得，我知道土星与天王星的关联，我也看到

And I never got that because I always I think that the association I mean, I get Saturn's association with Uranus, I also see

与水瓶座的关联。

With Aquarius.

抱歉，是与水瓶座的关联。

I'm sorry, with Aquarius.

谢谢。

Thank you.

我也看到天王星与水瓶座的关联，那种二元性，即既属于又不属于未来主义、超越个体和社会结构等的某种东西。

I also see the association with Uranus with Aquarius, that whole duality, the dilemma being part of and not part of the futuristic something beyond the individual, the social structure and so on.

但有趣的是，我们现代人总以为自己已经掌握了所学的一切。

But it's interesting how we moderners think we know what we've learned.

如果不回到希腊化时期的理解，我们会失去大量关于行星真正含义的东西。

Without going back to the Hellenistic understanding, we lose quite a bit of what the planets actually meant.

是的。

Yeah.

这真的很难说，因为自从外行星被发现后，占星家们就开始为它们分配星座了。在此之前，人们普遍认为只有七颗行星，每颗行星都与一个或两个黄道星座相关联。既然有这样一个前提：行星必须拥有自己的‘家’、‘ domicile’或‘居所’，那么当发现新的行星时，是否意味着这些新行星也应当拥有自己的星座作为它们的家或居所呢？

It's really tricky just because the modern Once the outer planets started being discovered, astrologers did start assigning them to because there was the premise up to that point that there are seven planets and each of the seven planets is associated with one or two zodiacal signs and in order for a planet to exist, it has to be Not exist, but if we have this premise that the planets call certain signs their home or their domiciles or dwelling places, then if there's new planets discovered, then does that mean by implication that the new planets would also call certain signs their home or domiciles or dwelling places as well?

最终，占星家们确实开始为这些行星分配星座，先是将天王星分配给水瓶座，随后海王星被分配给双鱼座，而冥王星正如我们今天早些时候讨论过的那样。

And eventually, astrologers did start assigning them to signs, first with Uranus to Aquarius and then eventually Neptune to Pisces and then Pluto as we were talking about earlier today before this.

关于冥王星应该归属于天蝎座还是白羊座，还存在一些争议，一些占星家倾向于一种观点，另一些则支持另一种，但最终大多数人还是倾向于天蝎座。

There's a little bit of a debate about whether it should be assigned to Scorpio or to Aries, and some astrologers went one way or another and eventually largely ended up being Scorpio.

当然。

Sure.

不过，回过头来看，有时很难讨论这个问题，因为一旦这些分配确立后，占星家们对这些外行星的理解就开始影响他们对星座的解读。比如，土星传统上在十七、十八世纪之前是掌管水瓶座的。

So one of the issues though looking back that's hard to have this discussion sometimes is that once those assignments started being made, astrologers started The understanding of the outer planets started influencing how astrologers interpreted the sign So of the Saturn, which traditionally before prior to like the seventeenth and eighteenth century was a Saturn ruled sign, Aquarius was.

但当占星家们开始将天王星与水瓶座联系起来后，他们对水瓶座的理解就开始发生变化，逐渐将水瓶座塑造成更具天王星特质的星座。

Once astrologers started associating Uranus with Aquarius, that started changing and they started adapting their view of Aquarius to be more Uranian and

更具有进步性，更倾向于这样。

more More in progressive, more Yeah.

更符合这种特质。

More in line with that.

因此，在讨论这个问题时，有时会遇到一个棘手的情况：自从20世纪80年代和90年代古老占星形式复兴以来，这个问题被越来越多地提及。人们开始回溯到 Uranus 发现之前的文献，看看当时是如何讨论水瓶座的，又是如何理解双鱼座的——在某些方面，这些观点与二十世纪和二十一世纪初占星师对这些星座的描述相同，而在其他方面则截然不同。

So that creates a tricky thing sometimes in having this discussion that's been talked about more and it's become more part of the discussion after the revival of older forms of astrology starting in the 1980s and '90s is going back and looking at texts from prior to the past few centuries prior to the discovery of Uranus and seeing how they discuss Aquarius or seeing how they conceptualize Pisces and how in some ways that's the same or in other ways that's radically different than how twentieth and early twenty first century astrologers talk about those signs.

同意。

Agreed.

是的。

Yeah.

我完全同意这一点。

I totally agree with that.

而且，星座和行星为了在某种程度上继续留在这个体系中，不得不调整了自己的位置。

And it's the signs and the planets that have had to adjust their position in order to stay a part of the family on some level.

对。

Right.

我个人尊重并认可这两种观点。

And I think I personally honor and respect both views.

我认为，从这两种观点中都能学到一些东西。

I think that there is something to learn from both of them.

我觉得如果只站在其中一个阵营，却不肯承认另一个阵营也有值得学习的地方，这是很危险的。至于你要如何把这些思路融入自己的实践，那是你自己的事。

I think it's dangerous to be in either camp without acknowledging that there's something to learn from the other camp and however you turn that into your practice, that's your business.

没错。

Sure.

对。

Yeah.

我最开始接触的是现代守护星理论，后来我去研究开普勒的学说时，已经学了四年占星，当时还是个纯粹的现代派占星师。

I started out with modern rulerships and when I went to Kepler, I was four years into my studies and I was a purely modern astrologer.

我当年去开普勒学院是为了学习现代占星学。

I went to Kepler to study modern astrology.

然后到了第二年，我总爱讲这么一件事：学校要求我开始学习古典占星学，我还试着抗议过。

And then in the second year, I always tell a story about how they forced me to start studying ancient astrology and I tried to protest.

所以这事其实有一部分得怪你，毕竟你是开普勒学院的联合创始人之一。

So that's actually partially your fault because you were one of the co founders of Kepler.

开普勒学院这个名字还是你取的呢

You actually came up with the name of Kepler College,

不是吗？

didn't you?

是的，是我。

Yeah, I did.

好的。

Okay.

所以归根结底，是你让我最终开始研究传统占星学的。

So you're the reason I ended up eventually studying traditional astrology.

这事儿怪你。

It's kind of your fault.

所有发生的事情

Everything that's happened

都是你该负的责任。

responsibility for your life.

好吧。

Okay.

这真是一个非常天王星式的说法。

That's a very Uranian statement.

水瓶座式的。

Aquariarian.

是的，确实如此。

Yeah, it's true.

对。

Yeah.

我刚才在说什么？

So what was I saying?

不过，我曾经是个非常激进的现代占星师，认为现代守护星才是唯一正确的方式，不 Incorporate 外行星的系统毫无意义。

I was very militant modern astrologer though in terms of the modern rulerships are the only way and it doesn't make any sense to have a system that doesn't incorporate the outer planets.

直到他们强迫我研究古代占星术，让我看到它是如何通过可见行星的对称性构建出一个对称体系的，我才开始理解并认识到传统守护星体系的价值，最终开始使用这套体系。

And so it was only eventually by them literally forcing me to study ancient astrology and seeing how it was set up through these symmetries of the visible planets to create a symmetrical system that I started to see and understand the value of the older traditional rulerships and eventually started using that scheme.

现在有一个问题，至少对于天王星和海王星来说，它们的守护分配是由17、18世纪的占星师做出的，而那时他们仍属于传统占星体系的一部分，他们确实做出了下一个合乎逻辑的分配：即基于传统守护体系的基础——希腊时期的‘宇宙图’概念，从两个 luminaries 开始，然后向外推移，从每个 luminaries 出发，水星……是的，没错。

There is an issue at this point where at least with Uranus and Neptune, they do actually because those assignments were made by astrologers in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries who are still continuing on part of essentially traditional astrology at that point, they did make the next logical assignments which is that if you take the the basis of the traditional rulership scheme which is the Hellenistic idea of the Thema Mundi and the notion that you start with the two luminaries and then you go outward and Mercury from each Yeah, sure.

是的。

Yeah.

太阳在狮子座，因为那是北半球夏季的中心和高峰，然后水星被分配到黄道顺序中的下一个星座，因为水星在逆行前永远不会离太阳超过一个星座。

So the Sun in Leo because that's the middle and the height of summer in the Northern Hemisphere, and then Mercury gets assigned to the next sign in zodiacal order because Mercury never gets more than one sign away from the Sun before it turns retrograde.

所以它被分配到处女座，然后金星被分配到天秤座，因为它永远不会离太阳超过两个星座。

So it gets assigned to Virgo and then Venus gets assigned to Libra because it never gets more than two signs from the Sun.

然后火星是下一个更远的行星，分配到天蝎座，木星到射手座，土星到摩羯座。

Then Mars is the next furthest planet out to Scorpio, then Jupiter to Sag, then Saturn to Capricorn.

接下来的空间自然就是水瓶座。

The next space after that would naturally be Aquarius.

所以我认为，无论是在十八世纪、十九世纪还是二十世纪初，一些占星家得出结论：如果我们这样做，那么按照传统体系的逻辑，下一个最远的行星——天王星——应该被分配到水瓶座，再下一个最远的行星则分配到下一个空缺的星座——双鱼座和海王星。

So that's why I think initially starting whenever it was in the eighteenth or nineteenth or early twentieth century, some astrologers made that conclusion that if we were going to do this, then that actually would follow the logic of the traditional scheme to next assign the next furthest planet out which is Uranus to Aquarius, and then the next furthest planet is to the next empty sign which would be Pisces and Neptune.

真正打破这个体系的是冥王星，我认为这也是为什么对此存在争议的原因。

The one that really breaks that scheme and I think that's why there was a debate about it is Pluto.

因为如果你继续遵循这个逻辑，冥王星就应该被分配到白羊座。

Because if you were to continue the following that scheme then Pluto should be assigned to Aries.

对。

Correct.

但问题是，当你回溯到黄道的起点时，火星的守护星座与天蝎座之间就出现了矛盾。

But part of the problem then is that you run into an issue with that going back to the beginning of the zodiac and Mars domicile versus Scorpio.

我认为这时神话开始介入，人们注意到冥王星是冥界的统治者，于是开始将第八宫与天蝎座联系起来，因为天蝎座是第八个星座，因此涉及死亡的概念，由此衍生出更多相关内容。

I think that's when the mythology starts getting involved and where they started paying attention to the idea that you know, Pluto is the ruler of the underworld and then they started associating the eighth house with Scorpio because Scorpio is the eighth sign and therefore notions of death and you start getting into stuff with that.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

不，我觉得我们可以稍微岔开一下话题了，目前讨论得差不多了。

No, I think for a little diversion, I think we probably did this far enough for now.

好的。

Okay.

但这一切都很重要。

But all of this is important.

这不仅仅是在讨论天王星，而是在讨论天王星、海王星和冥王星。

It's not just a discussion about Uranus, but it's a discussion about Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto.

你看，当这些行星刚被发现时，如果你读塞法里尔，或者读十八、十九到二十世纪其他占星家的著作，外行星曾被认为没那么重要。

Look, when they first came into being, when you read Sepharial, when you read other astrologers the turn into the eighteenth and to the nineteenth and twentieth century, the outer planets were considered to be not as important.

他们觉得，哦，这些行星移动得太慢了，会长时间停留在同一个位置，因此只有当它们与你的太阳、月亮或上升点成合相时才真正重要。

Was like, Oh, these planets move so slowly and they stay in the same place for so long that they're really only important if they are conjuncting your Sun or Moon or on an angle.

对。

Right.

这就引出了它们是世代行星或世代影响的观点。

And that leads to the idea of them being like generational planets or generational influences.

它们确实是，但没有现代占星师能提出这样的论点。

Which they are, but no modern astrologer could make a case.

让我换种说法。

Let me put it the other way.

没有任何人能向大多数现代占星师证明，天王星、海王星和冥王星，无论与人际和社会行星——即太阳、月亮、水星、金星、火星、木星和土星——形成何种相位，都显然具有自身的分量。

No one could make a case to most modern astrologers that Uranus, Neptune and Pluto in whatever aspects they might be to the interpersonal and social planets, the luminaries Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn, they obviously carry their own weight.

但再次强调，这回到了这样一个观点：当时人们认为土星是界限，任何超出它的行星都不那么重要，因为它们要么不可见，要么属于形而上的范畴。

But again, this goes back to the whole idea that what you saw and what you got that Saturn was the limit and anything out past that was not as important because it was either invisible or metaphysical.

而我们现在进入了一个世界，我认为天王星的发现开启了这一转变——形而上的世界开始主导物理世界。

And we've now moved into a world that I think the discovery of Uranus began where the metaphysical world is creating dominance over the physical world.

这是一个非常有趣的过渡，但我认为这与我们的后现代困境有关。

And that is a very interesting transition, but I think it has part to do with our postmodern dilemma.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

我之前谈到天王星时，其实是以一个传统占星师的身份在唱反调，因为我主要使用土星作为水瓶座的主星，木星作为双鱼座的主星，但传统占星师确实需要正视并承认，现代对天王星和海王星的归属，至少在逻辑上延续了传统的思路。

And what I was saying with the Uranus thing, was just arguing, was playing devil's advocate as a traditional astrologer and as somebody that does primarily use Saturn as the primary ruler of Aquarius and Jupiter for Pisces that was actually that traditional astrologers need to contend with and recognize that the new modern assignments at least with Uranus and Neptune were continuing the logic of the traditional I

同意。

agree.

我如今不再称这些现代行星为这些星座的‘主星’，而更倾向于说它们与这些星座相关。

And I don't refer to the modern planets much anymore as rulers of those planets, I refer to them as associated with.

换句话说，我并不一定认为天王星是水瓶座的守护星，但要将水瓶座、第十一宫与天王星的意象和原型能量与土星过去可能代表的含义完全区分开来，确实非常困难。

In other words, I don't necessarily consider Uranus the ruler of Aquarius, but boy, it's hard to separate out the imagery and the archetypal energy of Aquarius and or the eleventh house and or Uranus from one another as a nuance to what Saturn might have been in the past.

是的。

Yeah.

好吧，我们得区分不同类别，比如行星在什么情况下最强，或者另一个观点是：即使一个天体的象征意义与某个星座有某种关联或相似性，也不意味着它就必须统治那个星座。

Well, we just have to distinguish things like there's different categories like where is a planet strongest or let's say there's a separate argument which is that just because a celestial body has certain affinity or similarities in its significations with the sign of the zodiac does not necessarily mean it has to rule that sign.

没错。

Exactly.

我同意

I agree with

所以，极端一点说，就算啤酒行星或者啤酒小行星与双鱼座有一些相似或关联的象征意义，也不意味着啤酒小行星就一定统治双鱼座。

that So to take that to an extreme, let's say just because the planet Beer or the asteroid Beer has some similarity or associations, let's say similar significations as the sign Pisces, that doesn't mean that the asteroid Beer rules the sign of Pisces necessarily.

它只是意味着在某些情况下，这两者之间可能存在一些原型上的相似性。

It just means that there are some, let's say, archetypal similarities in some instances between those two things.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，不管怎样，这只是一个

So anyway, that's a

完全的离题。

whole digression.

你分享了来自1940年的《恒星影响组合》的引文。

So you shared the quote from Combination of Stellar Influences from 1940.

对。

Right.

我这里还有另一段1940年的引文。

I have another quote from 1940.

好的。

Okay.

这段引文来自格兰特·刘易，他是美国占星师，而非德国的，但属于同一时期。

And this is from Grant Lewi who is an American rather than a German astrologer but the same time period.

这是来自他写的《给大众的占星学》一书。

And this is from his book Astrology for the Millions.

他是谁？

Who was he?

他是二十世纪中期一位著名的占星师。

He was a famous astrologer in the mid twentieth century.

他不是那些在好莱坞工作的人之一吧？

He wasn't one of the ones that was working in Hollywood, was he?

不是。

No.

不是。

No.

不是。

No.

他实际上是达特茅斯学院的英语教授，文学系的教授。

He actually was an English professor at Dartmouth College, a professor of literature.

然后他成为了《星座杂志》的编辑。

And then he became an editor of Horoscope Magazine.

他写了《给大众的占星术》和《天知道什么》，这两本书都非常流行。

And he wrote Astrology for the Millions and Heaven Knows What, was tremendously popular.

它不仅推广了太阳星座占星术，还推广了更深层的占星术，但他所写的是我们称之为星盘占星术的第一次大众化浪潮。

It had to do with popularizing not just Sun sign astrology but deeper astrology, but he wrote what might be called the first wave of popularization of what we call horoscopic astrology.

好的。

Okay.

我在想里根早期的占星师是谁。

I'm trying to think of who Reagan's earlier astrologer.

哦，那是卡罗尔·莱德。

Oh, that was Carroll Ryder.

卡罗尔·莱德，好的。

Carroll Ryder, okay.

我在80年代初住在洛杉矶时，有幸见过他几次。

Who I had the pleasure of meeting a few times when I lived in LA in the early '80s.

好的。

Okay.

那是卡罗尔·莱德，他当时确实是好莱坞的占星师。

That was Carroll Ryder and he was definitely the Hollywood astrologer at the time.

明白了。

Got it.

所以格兰特·刘易斯写道，天王星在一般意义上与神经思维、创造力和个性相关，它在星盘中的星座位置表明了你将以何种方式通过创造性和原创性的努力来表达你最典型的自我。

So Grant Lewi wrote, Uranus in a general way relates to the neuromentality, the creative originality or individuality and his position by sign in the horoscope tells the direction along which you will seek to express your most characteristic self in a creative and original effort.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这基本上就是他的观点。

And that's basically his line.

他接着说，哦，我们再稍微讲一点这个。

He goes he goes on to say just oh, we just a little bit of this.

当天王星与水星或月亮同处一个星座时，会带来敏锐的觉察力、对感官印象的快速反应，以及一个极易触发的思维。

In the same sign with Mercury or the Moon, there's acute awareness, quick reactions to sense impressions, and a hair trigger mind.

与太阳同星座时，会表现出神经质的活动、紧张的性格，以及原创、富有创造力或古怪的特质。

In the same sign with the Sun, there's nervous activity, high strung nature, original, creative, or eccentric.

与火星同星座时，会表现出高速活动、热爱速度，或许还带有危险性。

In the same sign with Mars, there's high speed activity, love of speed, and perhaps danger.

与金星同星座时，会对情感体验有独特的反应，通过感官和原创的爱情观念表现出高度理想主义，他接下来继续谈到这一点。

In the same sign with Venus, unusual reaction to emotional experience, highly idealistic through sensual and original ideas of love, he goes on from there.

但再次强调，格兰特·刘易斯是二十世纪的占星师，但他属于前人本主义占星、前心理学占星时期。

But again, the thing about Grant Lewi is that he was a twentieth century astrologer, but he was prehumanistic astrology, pre psychological astrology.

是的。

Yeah.

从这个角度来看，我认为他正处于一个非常有趣的转折点，因为他明显是现代的，但又不具备明显的占星心理学特征。

And from that standpoint, I think he wrote at a very interesting turning point because he's recognizably modern and yet not recognizably astrologically psychological.

对。

Yeah.

因为真正开始将卡尔·荣格思想融入占星学的是达恩·鲁德拉，他在1936年的第一本书《人格占星学》中就已开始，但直到六七十年代才真正流行起来，而且

Because was Dane Rudhyar was the first that really started integrating Carl Jung in his first book in 1936, The Astrology of Personality, but that didn't really take off and become popular until the sixties and seventies and

八十年代。

eighties.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

这真是件奇怪而有趣的事。

That's such a weird and interesting thing.

我花了很长时间才意识到这一点，因为我是在1999年或2000年左右开始学习占星的。

It's something that took me a long time to realize because I came in and started studying astrology around 1999 or 2000.

所以我研究的是你们这一代人，也就是20世纪60年代、70年代和80年代进入占星领域的普鲁托在狮子座的一代。

So I'm studying basically your generation of the Pluto and Leo generation who came in in the 1960s and 70s and 80s.

对我来说，那就是现代占星，主要是心理占星，而且深受荣格影响。

That to me was modern astrology and it was largely psychological astrology and it was very Jungian.

但这种占星方式直到60年代、70年代和80年代的这一代人才真正扎根于传统之中，而我之前并没有意识到这其实非常近期。

But that type of astrology really didn't really get firmly ingrained in the tradition until that generation of the 1960s and '70s and '80s, and I didn't realize how recent that was.

而如果你再往前回溯几十年，比如1940年代的这位作者，

Whereas if you go back just a few decades earlier to, for example, this author in 1940s

这正是我喜欢读他的原因，因为他真实地展现了这种观念有多么现代、多么近期。

Which is why I like reading him because it really shows how modern, how recent that is.

我在六十年代末、七十年代初上大学时主修心理学。

I was a psychology student in the late sixties, early seventies in college.

好的。

Okay.

我当时完全沉迷于荣格，有人送了我一本《人格的占星学》。

And I was totally into and devouring Jung and someone gave me a copy of The Astrology of Personality.

那是1970年。

It was 1970.

在那之前，我已经在研究占星学，但我完全不知道它和任何其他事物有真正的关联。

And up until then, I had been already studying astrology, but I had no idea it had any real relevance to anything else.

我只是觉得它很有趣。

I just thought it was fascinating.