建立真正自尊的日常习惯 | 凯瑟琳·伊斯科博士

我们经常谈论与他人设定界限，但却忘了有时我们需要对自己设定界限，而这一切从日程安排开始。

We talk a lot about boundaries with others, but we forget that sometimes we need boundaries with ourselves and that starts with our calendar.

那对于习惯，你有什么类似的看法吗？

And what would you have anything similar to say about habits?

比如，我们实际如何度过时间，而不仅仅是如何安排时间？

Like, the way we're actually spending our time aside from how we're scheduling our time?

关于习惯，我会说这稍微更复杂一些，比如你看了多少Netflix？

Habits, would say, is a little bit more challenging because it could be habits as in how much Netflix do you watch?

你喝绿色奶昔，还是喝一瓶香槟？

Do you eat a, do you drink a green smoothie or do you have a bottle of champagne?

因此，关于习惯，有各种不同的表现形式。

So there's lots of different variants to that in regard to habits.

而且，我们常常把习惯划分为好习惯和坏习惯。

And I think oftentimes we put habits into buckets of good habits and bad habits.

我认为问题在于，尤其是在追求平衡时，我们心里认为好习惯就等于平衡。

And I think the problem with that, especially as balance is we think in our head that good habits equals balance.

但问题在于，这就像一个跷跷板，如果一边只有‘好’，那根本不算平衡。

But the problem with that, it's kind of like a seesaw of those things that if you have only good on one side, that's not really balanced.

很多年前，我曾教授过一种叫做‘五十种绿色’的理论，因为我曾经是个暴食者。

So many, many years ago, I used to teach this theory called 50 Shades of Green because I was formerly a binge eater.

而暴食者的挑战在于，你看待生活时只分两种极端：极好的天使，极坏的恶魔。

And binge eater, the challenge with that is you only look at life through very good angel, very bad devil.

所谓极好，就是像空气一样，或者像山里僧侣种植的有机蔬菜，极其苛刻，而其他一切都不行。

So very good would be basically air or like a organic vegetable farmed by monks in the mountains, like it would be so specific and then everything else.

因此，我发展出了‘五十种绿色’这个概念。

So what I developed is 50 Shades of Green.

你有那些非常有营养的食物，也有像今天让我麻醉的那些高糖食物，我特别想吃它们。

So you got the really nutritious foods and then you had the foods that like what anesthesia got me today, a whole bunch of sugar, which I'm so excited to eat.

但我并不只关注这些。

But I don't just focus on that.

所以当谈到习惯时，我认为更重要的是，问问自己：当你进行这些习惯时，你感觉如何？

So when it comes back to habits, I think it's more the responsibility of the person asking yourself, how do you feel when you're engaging in those habits?

在我们生命中的某些时候，尤其是当我们经历艰难时期时，抱歉，我们不是超级英雄。

Some times in our life, especially when we're going through a rough time, I'm sorry, we're not superheroes.

你不可能总是充满彩虹、蝴蝶和独角兽。

You're not gonna be all like rainbows and butterflies and unicorns.

你可能会疯狂地追一整季奈飞剧集，而那正是你当时所需要的。

You might have an epic Netflix binge and that's what you needed at the time.

那是一种坏习惯吗？

So is that a bad habit?

我不确定是不是。

I don't know about that.

有时候，那只是你当下需要的东西。

Sometimes that's just what you need in the moment.

你明白我的意思吗？

So do you know what I'm saying?

这真的很难

Like it's really hard to

百分之百。

100%.

我认为在习惯这个问题上，我们不能简单地用非黑即白来划分。

I don't think we can be as granular as black and white when it comes to habits.

举个完美的例子，我现在正在连续录制阶段。

Like, a perfect example is right now I'm in the middle of a recording block.

所以我要在四到五天内完成十集节目，这对我来说是个很大的工作量，尤其是我还有一个六个月大的宝宝。

So I'm doing 10 episodes across four to five days, which is big chunk for me, especially with a six month old.

对我来说，这是一大段密集的工作。

Like, that's a big block of work for me.

所以最近几天，我点了早餐，而我平时几乎从不——也不是完全不。

So the last few days, I've ordered breakfast, which I normally never, like not never.

抱歉。

Sorry.

我平时几乎从不点外卖。

I I normally very rarely order takeaways.

也许就像周五晚上才这样，或者周末偶尔做一两次。

Maybe like a it's a Friday night thing or once we do a couple times on the weekend.

但连续几天每天都点外卖，这对我来说并不常见，不过我现在这么做是为了在时间极度紧张的这段时期更好地支持自己。

But, like, to order out every day for a few days, that's not common for me, but that's something I am doing now to support me through this period where my time is capped.

所以，我认为我们也不能对习惯做太细致的划分。

So, like, I don't think we can look at habits very granularly either.

如果我们回到自我尊重的区域，谈谈最后一个——掌控感，这 arguably 是我们最应该身处的区域，对吧？那么，身处这个区域的人通常会使用哪些技能或工具呢？

If we come back to the self respect zones and we're talking about that last one, mastery, which arguably is the one we wanna be sitting in, right, the zone we wanna be sitting in, What are the skills or tools that someone sitting in that zone is using on a regular basis?

你能给我们分享一下你最核心的一两个吗？

Maybe you can give us, like, your top one or two.

当然。

Sure.

我认为最重要的一个是，能够用尤达的方式，而不是达斯·维达的方式来看待自己的过去。

I would say the top one is being able to look at your past through the lens of Yoda, not Darth Vader.

我以前有口吃。

I used to have a stutter.

所以有时候我发现很难说出达斯这个名字，我的意思是，我们常常回顾过去发生的事，对自己说：‘那时候我们怎么就不懂呢？’

So sometimes I always find words hard to say Darth And what I mean by that is oftentimes we look at something that's happened in our past and we say to yourself, how could we not know better?

那时候我们真是太蠢了。

We were so stupid at that time.

但这就像对幼儿园时的自己说：‘真不敢相信你居然这么蠢。’

But it's the equivalent of saying to ourself in kindergarten, I can't believe you were so stupid.

你为什么不知道一加一等于二？

Why did you not know what one plus one equals?

当你拥有自尊时，你会明白，那时的你并没有现在这样的知识。

When you have self respect, you understand that at the time you didn't have the knowledge that you have now.

虽然这表面上看似乎是一件很简单的事，但请想想，我们花了多少时间去过度分析、过度思考、过度苛责自己过去所做的决定。

And while this might on the surface seem like such a simple thing, just think about the amount of time that we spend over analyzing, over thinking, over scrutinizing a decision that we made in the past.

几分钟、几小时、几天、几年。

Minutes, hours, days, years.

我知道我曾经这样做了很久。

I know I did that for a long time.

我们能不能把这份精力用在思考别的事情上？

And can we use that energy to think about something else?

这其实涉及到过度思考，你知道什么是过度思考，什么是正常思考。

And that's sort of getting into overthinking, you know, what's overthinking, what's thinking.

但我想说，在精通区的人拥有这样一种美好的能力：他们不会忘记过去，因为这根本不可能发生。

But I would say in the mastery zone, the people that are in this zone have this beautiful ability not to forget about the past because that's not gonna happen.

我们不会让自己变成白痴。

We're not gonna lobotomize ourselves.

那是你的一部分。

And it's a part of you.

没错。

It is.

一旦我们意识到，我们可以从过去中学习，而不是为此感到巨大的羞愧，很多人就会想：我需要减肥。

And once we realize that we can learn from that rather than feel immense amounts of shame from that, is, you know, lot of people think I need to lose weight.

你知道你真正需要减掉的是什么吗？

You know what you need to lose?

内疚和羞耻的负担。

The weight of guilt and shame.

这是我们可以背负的最具破坏性的负面负担。

That is the most deleterious negative weight that we can carry.

当你知道得更多，你就会做得更好。

When you know better, you do better.

当然，妈妈可能不是指我妈妈。

Obviously mom's maybe not mine.

但我会说，那时那刻，这几乎占了生活的99%。

But I would say that is 99% of life right then and there.

每当我要做主题演讲时，总有人悄悄走过来告诉我：‘其实，过去发生过这样的事。’

And I just, I feel for people the number of times that I give a keynote and someone comes up to me and sort of very secretly says like, Oh, but this is what happened in the past.

你从他们的身体姿态就能看出那种紧绷感。

And you can just see it in their body that just the clench of it.

我会说：‘但那已经是过去的你了。’——那一刻的释然。

And I say, but that was you then and just the relief.

是的

Yeah.

我只是希望更多人能明白这一点。

I just, I wish more people could see that.

如果我有一个愿望，一个对世界的愿望，那就是让人们能够原谅自己过去的错误。

That would be if I had one wish, one wish for the world, it's just for people to just be able to forgive themselves for the past.

哎哟。

Oof.

世界会变得更美好。

Be such a nicer world.

确实如此，因为即使是我自己，在不同时刻，还有我的伴侣、我们的朋友，你经常会发现人们背负着过去的遗憾或决定，这些至今仍在拖累着他们。

It's true because, you know, even even myself at different moments, my partner, friends of ours, you do have many conversations where you realize people are carrying the weight of their past regrets or decisions, and it's still holding them back today.

比如，我甚至还有一些亲戚，我见到他们时，发现他们仍背负着三四十年前关系中的羞愧或悔恨。

Like, I still have even, like, extended family members that I see that are carrying around shame or regret from relationships thirty, forty, fifty years ago.

你知道的？

You know?

那是什么阻止了他们今天在生活中体验到其他东西呢？

And what's that preventing them from experiencing in this life today?

是的。

Yeah.

你现在会怎么对那些正深陷在这种情绪中的人说呢？他们觉得某件事真的发生在自己身上，阻碍了他们迈出下一步，而且因为某个经历、某个人、别人对他们的言语或沉默、或者某人和他们分手，而对他们造成了巨大影响。

What would you say to somebody right now who's listening that really is sitting in that energy of, like, but you but, like, this thing has really happened to me, and, like, it's really prevented me from taking the next step, and, like, it's really, really impacted me because of x y zed experience or because of x y zed person or what someone said to me or didn't say to me or this person broke up with me.

你知道吗？

You know?

当你处在那种情绪中时——我们都曾经历过，这并不代表你有什么问题——你现在会怎么对这样的人说，才能帮助他们走向自尊？

When you're in that feeling, which we've all been there, there's nothing wrong with you for being there, what would you say to that person right now so they can move into self respect?

我一定会尽量不哭，因为我曾经很多次身处那种境地，我一生中曾三次有过自杀的念头。

I'll try not to cry for sure because I've been in that situation many times when so I was suicidal three times in my life.

那种感觉我绝不希望任何人经历，因为在那一刻，你会觉得自己不够特别。

And it's a feeling that I would never wish on anyone because in that moment, you think you're not special enough.

在那一刻，你眼中看到的只有黑暗。

And in that moment, all you can see is darkness.

你眼前什么都看不到。

You can't see anything in front of you.

而这个问题在于，没有人能说或做任何事来让你走出那一刻。

And the challenge with that is there's nothing someone can say or do to get you out of that moment.

我真希望，真希望有办法。

I wish, I wish there was.

我记得又一次被某个男生甩了之后，跟爸爸谈过一次。

And I remember talking to my dad once after yet another guy dumped me.

我当时有点像第五阶段的自怜者。

I was a little bit of a stage five claimer.

比如，翻看别人的手机、篡改信息，真的有那么严重吗？

Like is breaking into someone's phone really that big of a deal and changing messages?

他甩了我。

And he dumped me.

我当时在跟爸爸说话。

And I was talking to my dad.

我说，爸爸，你帮帮我吧。

I said, dad, just fix it.

帮我解决一下。

Fix it for me.

让生活轻松一点。

Make life easier.

他说，斯奎格斯，我什么都做不了。

And he said, Squigs, I can't do anything.

时间会教你该怎么做。

Time is gonna teach you what to do.

我以前很讨厌父母这样对我说。

I used to hate when my parents would say that to me.

我当时气得要死。

Oh, I was like, I was so angry at him.

气得要命。

So angry.

因为那时的我，正承受着痛苦。

Because there I am, I'm in pain.

我的生活正在终结。

My life is ending.

而他只说，时间会说明一切。

And all he says is time.

当然，他当时也说了，我在这里。

Now, of course he also said, I'm here.

我很抱歉。

I'm sorry.

这真糟糕。

That sucks.

但核心还是时间。

But the core of it is time.

我多希望能有个神奇的答案，因为天知道那可能会让我赚上十亿美元，但我不会那样做，因为这就是自尊的所在。

And I wish I had a magic answer because Lord knows that would probably make me a billion dollars, but I'm not gonna, this is where self respect is.

我可以编一个答案，然后把它卖出去。

I can make up an answer and I can sell that answer.

但真相是，自尊这个概念中最美好的部分在于‘自我’这个词。

But the truth is the beautiful thing about self respect is the word self.

人们内心其实已经拥有答案。

People have the answers inside them.

也许这些答案还没到浮现的时候，但你终会找到它们。

It might just not be the time for those answers to come out, but you will find them.

你终会找到它们。

You will find them.

如果你正在听这个播客，正在聆听这一刻，这就意味着你已经走在正确的道路上。

If you're listening to this podcast and listening to this moment, that is a sign that you're already on the right way.

什么

What

你对生活中那些在坚韧与放弃、退出或转向之间微妙平衡的事情有什么看法？

are your thoughts on you know, there's different things we do in life where we're walking this fine line of resilience versus a need to just abandon ship, quit, or pivot.

嗯。

Mhmm.

有时候，自我 ego 也会在这个过程中起作用。

And sometimes ego plays a role in that.

我也在想，自尊在其中扮演了什么样的角色。

And I wonder as well what what role self respect plays in that.

你知道的。

You know?

在你创办的事业或你并不喜欢的职业中保持韧性。

Be resilient in a business you've started or a career that maybe you're not enjoying.

就是硬撑下去，想办法让它行得通。

Like, just push through, make it work.

关系。

Relationship.

我说的是关系吗？

Did I say relationship?

我想不起来了。

I can't remember.

是的。

Yeah.

一段关系。

A relationship.

它可能是一种爱好，或者你正在忍受的某件事。

It could be a hobby, something you're putting up with.

我觉得有时候——我也经历过——这其实是一个自我提问：我怎么知道什么时候该转型或放弃不再对我有益的事物，而不是仅仅在硬撑，试图坚持到底？

And I feel like sometimes, and I've experienced this, it's like a question to self of how do I know when I need to pivot or abandon something that's no longer serving me versus I'm just pushing through and trying to see this out.

再说一次，作为那个总想取悦他人的人，有时候我觉得你可能会陷入维持现状，或者为了维持表面平静而强行坚持某件事，而实际上你最好选择放手并转向新的方向。

Like, again, as the people pleaser sitting there, sometimes I think you can probably fall into just maintaining the status quo or pushing something beyond what it's serving you just to keep things sort of at bay when you would be better off abandoning ship and then pivoting.

关于这种决定，你有什么想法吗？

So any thoughts around this sort of decision?

而且我觉得我们所讨论的很多内容归根结底都在于：我们所做的决定是否建立在自尊的基础上。

And and I feel like a lot of what we're talking about comes down to, like, the decision we have to make and whether it's grounded in self respect or not.

嗯嗯。

Mhmm.

自尊如何影响韧性与放弃之间的区别？

How does self respect play into resilience versus quitting?

是的。

Yeah.

在做决定时，自尊能让你更快地做出选择，也能更好地应对后续影响。

So when it comes to decision making, self respect enables you to make quicker decisions, but also navigate the aftermath.

我所说的‘决策后遗症’就是这个意思。

And what I mean is kind of like the decision hangover.

你之所以会有这种决策后遗症，是因为你意识到：没有任何决定是完美的。

And the reason why you have that decision hangover is because you realize is that no decision is going to be a perfect decision ever.

我说的不是这种决定，比如我该吃苹果还是香蕉？

And I'm talking about decisions like this isn't, should I have an apple or banana?

我说的是重大的人生决定。

I'm talking about significant life decisions.

这永远不可能是一个完美的决定，尤其是当你在和别人打交道，特别是你关心的人时。

It's never ever, ever going to be a perfect decision, especially when you're dealing with someone else, especially someone that you care about.

你不可能从一种情况中抽身，而所有人都安然无恙。

You cannot get out of a situation and everyone is hunky dory.

每个人都说：‘太好了，我们终于分手了。’

Everyone's like, Oh, I'm so happy that we broke up.

事情不会是那样的。

It's not gonna be like that.

所以谈到韧性，我认为重要的是要认清什么是真正的韧性？

So when it comes to resiliency, I think it's important to recognize what is actually resilience?

我们经常谈论它，而我最好的解释是，我们以为韧性就是突然间变得无比强大。

We talk about it all the time and the best way I can explain is because we think that resilience is all of a sudden we're just like amazing.

我们皮肤干净、头发闪亮，事后仿佛天使在歌唱。

We have clean pores, we have like shiny hair and we're like, the angel is singing afterwards.

对我来说，韧性就像记忆棉，当你挤压它时，它经历各种挑战，被扭曲成各种形状。

Resilience to me is like when you get memory foam and you squish it, you're going through all these challenges and it's contorted in this and that.

在你心里，韧性以为它只是弹回原来的样子。

In your head resilience says, Oh, it just pops back into the exact same shape it was.

但我们看不到的是，内部其实发生了细微的变化。

But what we don't see is there's little changes inside.

我们内心发生了微妙的转变。

There's little shifts that happen inside of us.

而这些转变中的很多可能都会让人感到不适。

And a lot of those might be uncomfortable.

这就是韧性。

That's resilience.

韧性是在经历挑战时发生变化，但明白这种变化实际上是为了更好，即使当时我们可能并不理解。

Resilience is going through something challenging, it changing us, but understanding that change is actually for the better, even though we might not understand it at the time.

所以回到你关于关系、事业等问题的疑问。

So back to your question of whether it's a relationship, business, etcetera.

困难的是，我们真的能知道什么时候才是对的时机吗？

The hard thing is, do we ever really know it's the right time?

马克·兰多夫，我认为他是奈飞的联合创始人。

Mark Randolph, I believe he was the co founder of Netflix.

他说，根本不存在什么好点子。

He said, there's no such thing as a good idea.

所有的点子一开始都是坏点子。

All ideas start up as bad ideas.

正是通过不断的试错，而不是一味地提问，这些点子才最终可能变成好点子。

And it was only through trial and error instead of asking questions that eventually it might become a good idea.

我认为决策也是如此。

And I think it's the same thing with decisions.

根本不存在什么完美的决策。

There's no such thing as a perfect decision.

你做出一个决定，然后让它变得正确。

You make a decision and then you make it right.

这就是我看待世界的方式。

That's the way I approach world.

尤其是在精通的过程中，你会明白，如果你十次中有八次做对了，我觉得就已经很不错了，对吧？

And especially in the mastery, you understand that if you get it right eight times out of 10, I think you're doing pretty well, right?

生活中追求卓越并不需要完美。

This whole thing about excelling in life doesn't require perfection.

作为一个正在戒除完美主义的人，说这话就像喝醋一样难，当你在发邮件时反复检查语法、这那的，干脆直接发出去吧。

And as a recovering perfectionist, that's vinegar to say, it's hard to say that when you're typing an email and you're checking the grammar and this and that, send the damn email.

这就像我们在生活中，站在网球场上。

It's almost like we're in life, we're standing on a tennis court.

我们拿着球拍，球朝我们飞来，却想着：算了，等下一个球吧。

We have the racket and the ball's coming towards us and we're like, no, we'll swing at the next one.

不，我没法完美地击中这个球。

No, I wouldn't be able to hit that perfectly.

别犹豫，直接挥拍，做出决定。

Swing the damn racket, make the decision.

它不会是完美的。

It's not going to be perfect.

能跟我详细说说你决定离开的过程吗？

Walk me through your decision to leave.

你知道，这可是个相当受人尊敬的职位。

You know, what what can be looked at as as quite an esteemed role.

你当时坐在首席执行官的位置上。

You're sitting as a CEO.

你在与这个头衔、这个身份认同作斗争时，是否经历了自我 ego 的挣扎？还是说这是一个干脆利落的决定？

Did you have to work through ego around your association with that title, your identity with that title, or was it a clean-cut decision for you?

你能跟我讲讲这个过程吗？

You know, can you just walk me through that process?

因为我想谈谈我们正在讨论的一个方面，那就是觉知，对吧？理解这一点，好吧。

Because I I wanna speak to the fact that I think there's a part of what we're speaking about, which is the awareness, right, and understanding, okay.

我能看清事物本来的样子。

I can see things for the way they are.

但执行——也就是基于这种觉知采取行动——是另一回事，这其中涉及更多因素，会促使你的自尊浮现出来。

But the execution, which is and taking action on that decision is a different game, And there's a lot more that kind of plays into that to bring your self respect to the surface.

你能跟我详细说说，你是如何从这样一个角色中转变出来的吗？

So can you just walk us through your personal experience making that shift out of a role like that?

这很难。

It was hard.

非常难。

Very hard.

因为身处那个角色时，你不仅仅是你自己。

Because especially being in that role, you're not just you.

不只是你和你脑子里那个想象中的朋友在公司里。

It's not just you and when you and your imaginary friend in your head in the company.

但归根结底，这就像你有没有穿过一条特别不舒服的裤子去约会或开会，各种情况都发生过？

But at the end of the day, it's almost like, have you ever worn a really uncomfortable pair of pants to like a date or a meeting and this and that?

你努力集中注意力，但它却不断摩擦你的侧腰。

You're trying to concentrate, but it's constantly just digging into your sides.

那种角色给我的感觉就是这样。

And that's what it felt like that role.

这条裤子可能看起来非常棒，毫无疑问。

The pants might've looked fantastic, no question.

天知道你在参加社交活动时会怎么做？

Lord knows when you're at networking events and what do you do?

哦，自尊心作祟，自尊心作祟，看我，穿得这么体面，尤其是身为STEM领域的女性。

Oh, well, ego, ego, ego, look at me, fancy pants, especially being a woman in STEM.

STEM博士、首席执行官、优等生毕业，该有的头衔全都有了，亲爱的。

So PhD in STEM, CEO, Summa Cum Laude graduate, like the tick boxes were there, honey.

那感觉很好。

It was good.

你穿着那件挂满徽章的西装外套。

You had the blazer with all the metals.

是的，你说得有趣，因为我当时正在和一位品牌顾问合作，我记得很清楚。

Yeah, it's funny that you say that because I was actually working with a brand consultant and she, I remember this.

她说，你需要一个医生专用的衣橱，然后你可以在另一个衣橱里穿自己喜欢的衣服。

She said, you needed a doctor closet and then you can wear what you like in the other closet.

我想说的是，长时间假装成一个不是自己的人真的非常困难。

What I'm saying here is that it's really, really hard to pretend to be someone you're not for an extended period of time.

你可以这么做，但我认为你肯定需要接受大量的心理治疗。

You can, but I think you're gonna have to take a lot of therapy for sure.

听我说，重要的是要认识到，从那种状态跳到另一面，并不像‘哦，我的生活现在完美了’那样简单。

And listen, I think it's important to recognize that jumping from that over to the other side wasn't like, Oh, my life is perfect now.

挑战永远都会存在，但那些是你自己的挑战。

It's always gonna be challenging, but it's your challenges.

这才是关键。

That's the thing.

我不愿过一种去应对自己根本不想面对的挑战的生活。

I'm not living my life navigating challenges that I don't even wanna challenge.

再次强调，要忠于那个未知的自我。

It's again, to the unknown self be true.

这成了我做决定时的指南针——无论是开口说话还是保持沉默，做决定时，谈论什么话题。

This is my guiding light decisions when I speak up, when I don't speak up, when I make decisions, what I talk about.

一切都归结于此。

It all comes back to this.

我非常欣赏你分享的实用性和真实性。

And I really appreciate the practicality of what you're sharing and the realness of it.

并不是说，你有了自尊，然后做出这些决定，就立刻飞黄腾达、一切顺利了，因为情绪依然在起作用。

It's not that you know, you have self respect, then you make these decisions, then you're, like, flying and everything's great because, like, there's still emotions at play.

生活依然在继续。

There's still life.

但就现在的决策方式而言，它和以前相比有什么不同呢？你之前提到，你会熬夜、过度思考，反复纠结‘我本该说那句话’，在脑海中演练整个争论过程。

But in terms of decision making now and how it looks different to you than it did before, you know, you were talking about how you would stay up late and overthinking and really, like, meandering on I should have said this and playing out the argument and all of that.

如今，你的决策方式有什么不同？

How does decision making look different to you today?

你是直接凭直觉做决定，然后就结束了？

Do you just go off your gut, move on, done?

或者，你能具体说说，自尊究竟为你在决策上带来了哪些真正的改变？

Or, you know, what's the what is really the difference for you that self respect has enabled for decision making?

我认为自信是其中非常关键的一部分。

I think it's self belief is a huge part of it.

你知道，那种说法，比如‘为什么是我？’

You know, the saying like, oh, why me?

如果我创办了这家企业，为什么成功的人会是我？

If I launched this business, why would I be the one that's successful?

这种事根本不可能发生在我身上。

That could never happen to me.

自尊就是‘为什么不能是我？’

Self respect is why not me?

所以说到决策，我现在给你举个例子：我正在创建一个社群。

So when it comes to decisions, I'll give you an example right now, I'm starting a community.

网上有大约六万亿种不同的软件选择。

And there's about 6,000,000,000,000 different software options online.

在圣诞节假期期间，我正在逐一研究它们，这个有这个优势，那个有那个优势。

Over the Christmas holiday, I'm going through them all, one of them has this benefit, that has that benefit.

哦，这个稍微便宜一点，那个稍微贵一点。

Oh, that's a little bit cheaper, that's a little bit more expensive.

自尊意味着，这无关平台，而在于社群。

Self respect is saying, it's not about the platform, it's about the community.

我就选这个了，信用卡一刷，搞定。

I'm going to pick this one, credit card goes in, bada bing bada boom, done.

如果这不是合适的平台，我会换另一个。

If it's not the right platform, I'll move to another platform.

话虽如此，我生活中有更重要的事要做，而不是纠结于五美元的差价，或者某个平台缺少某个小配件之类的事。

That said, I have better things to do with my life than worry about $5 difference or that this doesn't have a certain trinket, whatever like that.

我知道这是一个无关紧要的例子，但我认为，尤其是当你是一个高成就者时，你总在等待那个确定无疑的时刻。

And I know that's a benign example, but I think this idea, especially when you're a high achiever, you're waiting for that moment of certainty.

是的。

Yeah.

就像清晰的云层缓缓散开。

Like the clarity clouds sliding.

是的。

Yes.

哦，这样啊。

Like, oh.

你知道，它就是不行。

You know, and it just doesn't.

我认为这种心态背后很多是：如果我做错了决定，我会显得很蠢。

And I think a lot of the inherent mindset to that is if I make the wrong decision, I'm gonna look really stupid.

是的。

Yes.

追求完美背后有一种羞耻感。

There's shame around being perfect.

绝对如此。

Absolutely.

这就是为什么，即使我们在会议上提问时，也会说：这可能是个愚蠢的问题。

And that's why, even when we ask questions, we're at a conference, so this might be a stupid question.

为什么？

Why?

因为我们事先就说好了，如果这是个蠢问题，那我们也早知道。

Because we're prefacing that if it is a stupid question, well, we knew it.

我们确信自己早就知道。

We're certain that we knew it.

但如果这是个很聪明的问题，我们就会说，哦，她真谦虚。

And if it's a really smart question, then we're like, Oh, she's so humble.

不，直接问就是了。

No, just ask the damn question.

我觉得对于决策也是这样，你的听众可能在琢磨，我总说像牛膝骨这样的菜，作为意大利人，你需要让它慢慢炖透。

And I think with decisions, so your audience might be chewing on, I always say like an osso bucco, which as an Italian, you need to let it percolate.

你需要让它稍微发展出一些风味。

You need to let it develop the flavors a bit.

你希望里面的肉变得软嫩。

You want that inside to be nice and soft.

嫩得刚刚好。

Nice little tender.

但到了它准备好的时候。

But then it gets to the point where it's ready.

所以如果他们正处于那种‘奥斯索布科’的时刻，已经准备好了，就问问自己：他们是在追求一个完美的决定，还是仅仅想做一个决定？

So if they're at that ossabuco moment where they're ready, just ask themselves, are they trying to make a perfect decision or are they just trying to make a decision?

一个糟糕的决定总比完美的犹豫要强。

A poor decision is always gonna trump perfect hesitation.

我想知道，如果应用这种逻辑，你能省下多少时间，尤其是在那些我们本该看得没那么重要、却偏偏放大了的小事上。

I wonder how much time you would save applying that logic, you know, especially to menial things that we make a lot bigger and important than maybe they need to be.

比如，当我回想起刚开始做这个播客的时候，我花了多少时间纠结于颜色和标志。

Like, things like when I think back to when I was starting this podcast and how long I spent thinking about the colors and the logo.

你知道在过去五年里，我改过多少次吗？

And you know how many times I've changed that in the last five years?

每隔几年，我就会重新调整品牌形象。

Like, every couple of years, I'm changing the branding.

所以，你就是在不断改变。

So, like you're changing.

没错。

Exactly.

这些我们赋予了太多重要性的事项，实际上却偷走了我们真正想达成的成果，无论是重大决定如移居海外、关系转变、培养爱好，还是像地板上地毯的颜色这类小事，不管是什么。

So, like, these things that we put so much importance on actually just stole the end product that we're trying to get to, whether that be a big move overseas, a relationship change, picking up a hobby, like, simple, like the color of your rug on the floor, like, whatever it is.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

绝对是实用的建议。

Definitely, definitely practical advice.

我想我们都做过这种事。

I think we've all done that.

记得我是内向的人。

Remember because I'm an introvert.

我和我的狗躺在沙发上，没问题。

Me and my dog's on the couch, no problem.

这很棒。

Like, that's great.

我记得刚创业时，我以为只要做个特别漂亮的网站就行。

And I remember when I was first in business, I thought, oh, I'll just make a really pretty website.

然后生意就会自动找上门来，毫无问题。

And then just the business is just gonna roll in, no problem.

结果根本行不通，真是服了。

It didn't work, go figure.

于是我心想，我知道问题出在哪了。

So I'm like, Oh, I know what it is.

是因为所有字体都是左对齐的，应该改成居中对齐。

It's because all the font is left justified, it should be center justified.

于是我花了好几个小时、好几个小时地改，但还是没用。

So I'm spending hours and hours and hours, and Didn't work.

原因是我一直在逃避那件难事——那就是主动展示自己。

And the reason why is I'm avoiding doing the hard thing, which is putting myself out there.

所以在做决定时，我们常常寻找各种捷径，而不是亲自去把事情做成。

And so I think with decision, oftentimes we search for all the easy way around things rather than actually just making it happen ourselves.

这很难，因为又回到了那种感觉：为什么那个人会是我？

And it's hard because again, it gets back to that whole feeling like, why would I be the one?

为什么我的梦想会实现？

Why would my dreams come true?

但为什么不能是你呢？

But why not you?

仅仅因为我们不再是孩子了，并不意味着我们不能让梦想成真。

Just because we're not kids anymore, doesn't mean that we can't make our dreams come a reality.

我觉得这极其重要。

And I think that's so incredibly important.

当我们到了可能正在养育孩子的阶段时，就只是希望孩子的梦想能够实现。

We get to the stage where we might be raising a kid and we just think, I hope your dreams come true.

那你的呢？

Well, what about yours?

我认为重要的是要记住，即使我们不再是孩子，也不意味着我们不能做梦。

I think it's important to remember just because we're not kids anymore doesn't mean that we can't dream.

是的。

Yeah.

不。

No.

当然。

Definitely.

而且，你知道，这个节目的核心其实是激励他人按照自己的方式创造想要的生活。

And, you know, this show, the heart of it is really to inspire others to create a life that they want on their own terms.

所以每一位嘉宾，包括你自己，都在塑造心态、提供工具和技巧方面发挥了关键作用，帮助人们实现这种现实。

So every single guest, yourself included, really does play a a pivotal role in shaping the mindset, providing tools and tips so that people can create that reality.

我坚信，你可以为自己创造任何想要的东西。

And and I'm a big believer you can create whatever you want for yourself.

对于那些相信自己、正在追求梦想的听众来说，是什么让他们仍然会遇到停滞、失去动力的时刻呢？

For those people listening who do believe in themselves, they do they are going after their dreams.

是什么让他们仍然会遇到停滞、失去动力的时刻？

What causes them to still have those stalls, those moments of losing momentum?

生活。

Life.

这很正常吗？

So that's normal?

我给你举个例子。

I'll give you an example.

也许这信息太多了，但是

Maybe this is way too much information, but

没有这种事。

No such thing.

我不确定。

Don't know about that.

所以今天早上，你知道的，我整晚都没睡。

So this morning, you know, I was up all night.

我有很严重的消化问题，这在我们家是遗传的，各种情况都有。

I have really bad digestive problems, it runs in the family, this and that.

所以我整晚都没睡。

So I'm up all night.

总之，准备播客的时候，我的肠易激综合征发作了。

Anyways, so getting ready for the podcast is that IBS flare up hits.

我就不详细描述了，因为大家应该能想象出来，以后可能再也不会用原来的眼光看我了，但我根本出不了门。

And I won't describe it because I think people can picture it, they'll never look at me in the same way again, probably, but couldn't leave the house, can't.

你只能等着它过去。

You gotta wait it out.

于是我赶紧忙活，心想：天哪，这下又要迟到了。

So then I'm rushing and I'm like, Oh gosh, now I'm running late.

当然了，我刚来迪拜不久。

And of course I'm new to Dubai.

我心想，如果我走错了一个出口，等我到这儿的时候，时间都快过去六十八分钟了。

And I'm thinking if you make one wrong exit turn, all of a sudden I'm gonna be 68 by the time I actually arrive here.

我冲向车子，却忘了这双高跟鞋鞋底很滑。

Then I'm rushing to the car and these heels, I forgot that they're slippery.

于是在滑溜的停车场地面上摔了一跤，手重重撞在地上，书也撒得满地都是。

So I slip and fall on the slippery parking lot floor, smack my hand, the books go flying everywhere.

我第一个念头是，我的保安肯定正在看着，简直羞愧得要命。

And my first thought is my security guard is probably watching right now mortified.

然后我上了车，却又忘了东西。

And then I get in the car and then I forget something.

简直是一团糟。

I had to go like, it was just a gong show.

所以我到这儿的时候，心想：我这是最好的状态吗？

So when I arrived here, was like, am I my best self?

其实不是，但生活就是这样。

Not really, but that's life.

事情就是这样，你无能为力。

It is what it is and you can't do anything about it.

你所能做的就是尽最大努力。

All you can do is do your best.

有些日子你会觉得自己如日中天，另一些日子你只能对自己说：这一切都会过去的。

There's gonna be some days that you feel on top of the world and other days that you just gotta say to yourself, This too shall pass.

但在好日子，你也得说：这一切也会过去的。

But on the good days, you gotta say, This too shall pass as well.

因为你知道，那些觉得自己无所不能的时刻，要好好珍惜，因为它们也会过去。

Cause you know those moments where you feel like you are invincible, relish those because they're gonna pass as well.

但我觉得，在这种情况下，常常会想：为什么是我？

But I think oftentimes in those situations, just think, why me?

生气是没关系的。

And it's okay to be angry.

作为一个高成就者，有些日子我什么都做不了，这让我无比沮丧。

Like as a high achiever, it frustrates me to no end that some days I can't do anything.

我得躺在沙发上。

I have to be on the couch.

我的心率会飙升到每分钟四五十次。

My heart rate goes about forty, fifty beats high.

我必须躺下才能让心率降下来。

I have to lay down to get my heart rate down.

那一刻，我根本不是个积极的人。

That's it just, and I am not a positive person in that moment.

我不想坐在这里对观众说，我正心平气和地接受这一切，一切都很美好——其实这太糟糕了。

I don't wanna sit here and say to the audience that I'm Kumbaya ing it up and all happy about it, it sucks.

这就是生活，每个人都有自己的难处，这就是我的难题，而你也有你的。

That's life, everyone's got something, this is my thing, You got something.

我敢打赌，有了六个月大的孩子，你肯定也有时候会想：我当初怎么就答应了这事呢？

I'm sure with a six month old, I'm sure there are times that you're thinking, I didn't sign up for this.

我敢肯定，当他们吐得你满身都是的时候，但

I'm sure when they vomit all over you, but

这就是生活。

that's life.

是的。

Yeah.

这样的生活。

That life.

不。

No.

没错。

It's true.

你知道吗，我喜欢把生活想象成潮起潮落。

You know, a visual I like to think about is life as an ebb and flow.

如果生活始终都是积极和高峰，那么这些感受也不会如此强烈，因为我们缺乏对比的参照点。

And so if it was all positive and highs, Those things wouldn't feel that way if we didn't have a point of reference as comparison.

我的意思是，如果你从未经历过停滞不前或失去动力的日子，你就不会懂得什么是充满动力、感到积极，以及那种强烈的动机涌现的感觉。

What I mean by that is if you didn't have those days where things are stalling or you lose momentum, you wouldn't know what it feels like to have momentum and feel positive and, like, you've got a a big spark of motivation and all of that.

所以这些日子都有其意义。

So all these days serve a purpose.

甚至就像我们今天早上说的那样，那一刻让我回想起了我第一份实习的工作。

Even, like, when I when I have moments, like, literally what we said this morning, I gave me a flashback to my first intern job.

我正从电梯里走出来。

I was walking out of the lift.

我的老板在向我打招呼，而我却把咖啡全洒在了他公寓入口处——当时我们几个人就在那儿工作。

My boss was greeting me, and I literally dropped my coffee all over the entry to his, like, apartment where we it was, like, a few of us working.

那实际上正是我实习的开始。

That was actually, like, the start of my internship.

所以，像这样的时刻，我现在看待它们的方式是，这像是宇宙在提醒我：慢下来。

So, like, you have these moments, but I the way I like to think of things now is it's like the universe telling me, slow down.

当这样的事情发生并累积起来时，这就像在轻轻推我一下。

Like, when things like that happen and they're culminating, it's like, this is just a nudge for me.

我现在需要优先考虑一段时期，也许只是稍微放慢节奏。

I I need to now prioritize a season of maybe just, like, pairing it back.

比如，我现在正在进行的这个录音环节结束后，接下来好几天都没人能联系到我。

Like, after this recording block now that I'm doing is done, nobody's gonna be able to access me for a good few days.

我会躺在沙发上重新调整自己，老实说，啥也不干。

I'm gonna be recalibrating on the couch, like, doing not much, to tell you the truth.

这些经历都有其意义，我之所以想问你这个问题，是因为我确实觉得，我们内心都有那种完美主义倾向。

And, like, these things serve, and I just wanted to ask you that question because I do feel like we and this is, like, the inner perfectionist in us all.

我们有一种认知，认为一旦你足够自我觉察，拥有自己追求的梦想，并且相信自己，你就不会再有这些其他的问题了。

We have this perception that once you are very self aware and you have dreams that you're chasing and you believe in yourself, that you're not going to also have all these other things.

但我觉得真正的区别在于，你确实还是会经历这些事，但你对自己所经历之事的意义和作用的解读却完全不同。

I think what the difference is, though, you do have those things, but the story you tell yourself about what they mean and the purpose they serve is very different.

对我来说，这才是关键，你说得太对了。

And that to me is the key Spot on.

区别在于，是让这些事控制你，还是让它们定义你是谁。

Between letting those control you or letting them letting them dictate who you are.

你明白吗？

You know?

想法不是方向。

Thoughts are not directions.

想法就是想法。

Thoughts are thoughts.

你可以选择听从这些方向，也可以不听。

You can either listen to those directions or not.

这有点像，如果没有雨天，你就不会珍惜晴天，不过在迪拜这可能是最不恰当的比喻了，因为这里几乎每天都是晴朗美好的。

And it's sort of like, you can't appreciate the sunny days if there's no rainy days, probably the worst metaphor here in Dubai because it's beautiful every single day pretty much.

但事实就是如此。

But that's really it.

有些日子就是如此而已。

It's just some days are just the way it is.

是的。

Yeah.

最后总结一下，如果你必须用一句话描述自尊，让听者能回头思考：我拥有它，还是我没有？

Just to wrap up, if you had to describe self respect so someone listening can come back to it and think, I have it or I don't know.

我是在利用它，还是没有。

I'm tapping into this or I'm not.

你会怎么表达呢？

How would you state it?

自信让你走进房间。

So confidence is what gets you into a room.

自尊让你在一切出错时依然挺直腰板。

Self respect helps you stand tall when everything goes wrong.

自尊就是有能力说：我不是房间里最聪明的。

Self respect is that ability to say, I'm not the smartest in the room.

我不是最成功的。

I'm not the most successful.

我不是最漂亮的。

I'm not the prettiest.

我没有最多的粉丝，但我依然配得上在这里。

I don't have the most followers, but I still deserve to be here.

这在我们生活的每一个情境中都至关重要，无论是人际关系、商业，还是你正在为一百万美元融资，还是为十美元做推介。当你走进一个房间时，你要说：我也是特别的。

And that is important in every single context of our life, whether it's relationships, business, whether you're pitching for a million dollars or pitching for $10 When you walk into a room and you say, I'm special too.

这极其重要，因为我认为有很多人觉得自己并不特别。

And that is critically important because I think there's a lot of people out there that don't feel special.

我要说的是：他妈的，你就是特别的。

And I'm here to say, God damn it, you are.

那么最后一个问题，因为这激发了我一个想法，或者说一个想法：当你是一个高成就者，不断推动自己生活的水平、边界或目标时，比如你在工作中晋升了职位。

A closing question then because that's just sparked an idea or, I guess, a thought for me, which is when you're high achiever and you're constantly pushing the level or the boundary or the goal in in terms of what you have in your life, you know, you might be leveling up in a position at work.

你可能在拓展自己，挑战自己，主动争取新的机会。

You might be expanding yourself, challenging yourself, putting yourself forward for new things.

走进那些你不知道结果会如何的场合，你可能会感受到一种非常普遍的情绪，我们很多人都有这种感觉，那就是自我怀疑。

To walk into rooms where you don't know what's what the outcome's gonna be, and you may be feeling something very common, which a lot of us feel, which is self doubt.

是的。

Mhmm.

因为新的层次带来了未知和恐惧，从生物学角度来说，我理解为什么我们会经历这种感受。

Because that new level brings an unknown and fear, and biologically, it makes sense to me why we experience that.

面对这种情况，当有这么多未知因素时，你如何还能自信地走进去，觉得自己配得上在这里？

How do you, in the face of that, still walk in there with the confidence of I deserve to be here if there are so many unknown variables?

你有什么方法可以应对吗？

Like, do you have any tools for that?

不断告诉自己：为什么不能是我？

Constantly tell yourself, why not me?

为什么这件事不能成功呢？

Why couldn't this go right?

这实际上是把脑海中相反的想法反转了过来。

Which is probably flipping the opposite thought you've got in your head.

完全正确。

Totally.

我给你一个非常简短的例子。

I'll give you a really short example.

当时我在斐济参加一个会议，有一位演讲者被介绍为克里斯·海姆斯沃斯，一位经纪人。

So I was in Fiji at a conference and one of the speakers was announced as Chris Hemsworth, talent agent.

顺便说一下，克里斯·海姆斯沃斯就是我的学校通行证，或者叫门禁卡，随你怎么叫。

And the side note is Chris Hemsworth is my school pass or hall pass whatever you call it.

所以我觉得，太棒了，让我加一下他。

So that was like, cool, let me add them.

但说正经的，我当时启动了一个系列，叫《Something Different》，那时候的名字是这样。

But in all seriousness, had started a series called in, well, at the time it was called Something Different.

重点是，整个会议的主题就是主动去找演讲者，向他们提问，寻求他们的帮助。

The point being is the whole conference was about going up to the speakers and asking their opinions and asking for their help.

这是一场这样的会议。

It was that kind of conference.

所以我心里有个声音在说：我一直对娱乐行业很感兴趣。

So there was this thing in my head saying, Oh, I've always been interested in the entertainment industry.

这里可是世界上顶尖的经纪人之一。

Here is one of the top agents of the world.

我为什么不去找他聊聊呢？

Why shouldn't I go up to talk to him?

但那个追求卓越的我却说：你一无是处，什么成就都没有。

But the high achiever in me says, You're nobody, you haven't achieved anything.

而那个讨好型人格则说：天哪，像你这样的人真让人烦。

Then the people pleaser inside you says, Oh my God, people like you are so annoying.

他们只会想办法摆脱这场对话。

They're just gonna try to get out of the conversation.

为什么不能是我？

Why not me?

于是我走过去找他。

So I went up to him.

长话短说。

This is a very long story short.

我们来回发邮件讨论我的那一集。

We bounced back and forth emails about my episode.

我们改了这里那里。

We changed it this and that.

在这封回给他的邮件里，我问：你觉得这个怎么样？

And on this one email back to him, was like, Well, what do you think about this?

他再也没有回我。

Never heard back from him.

完全把我晾在一边。

Totally ghost me.

但重点是，我现在可以坐在这里说：唉，我本该去和他聊聊，问他一些问题的。

But the point being is I can sit here right now and say, Oh, shoulda, coulda, woulda gone to chat with him and ask him questions.

我现在真的可以对你这么说。

I can actually say it to you right now.

我确实从那件事中学到了很多。

I actually learned a lot from that.

我主动去找了他，而且一点也不后悔。

And I went out to him and I don't regret it at all.

那次对话没有带来任何结果，但冒险很少能立刻见效，而什么都不做，只会让你一生遗憾。

Nothing happened from that conversation, but taking risks rarely give you instant results, but doing nothing gives you a life of regrets.

那为什么不是你呢？

So just why not you?

为什么不是你呢？

Why not you?

是的。

Yep.

而且说实话，你去问的最坏结果，无非就是获得一些东西，或者你依然处于原地。

And and, honestly, the worst thing you can do the worst thing that can happen if you ask is you gain something or you're in the same position.

所以你真的没有什么可失去的。

So you genuinely have nothing to lose.

是的。

Yep.

或者你说了一些特别蠢的话，搞砸了，这种情况也可能发生。

Or you say something really stupid and you screw it up at which could happen.

我觉得很重要的是，你小声嘀咕着话，尴尬得要命，而对方还用奇怪的眼神看着你。

I think that's so important to say that you mumble the words and you're mortified and they're like looking at you funny.

猜怎么着？

And guess what?

你很可能不会再那样做了，也许你会多做一点准备。

You're probably not gonna do that again in regards to maybe you'll prepare a bit more.

我们必须考虑这个连续统一体。

We have to think about the spectrum.

你会觉得自己落后了一步，但其实并没有。

You'll feel like you're a step behind, but you're not.

因为下次你做这件事时，很可能会领先两步。

Because likely you'll be two steps ahead the next time you do it.

这本身就是一种收获。

And that's a gain.

对吧？

Right?

所以你从这种情境中获得了些什么。

So you gain something from the situation.

抱歉。

Sorry.

这是个好观点。

That's good point.

好观点。

Good point.

凯瑟琳，今天能邀请你做客节目，我感到非常愉快。

Well, Catherine, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the show today.

我会在节目笔记中放上你的书的链接，因为我认为，任何喜欢这期节目的人，都会对你的所有写作产生共鸣，而你慷慨地赠予我的这本书，真是一件美好的工具。

I'm gonna put a link to your book in the show notes because I think for anyone that's really loved this episode, of course, they're gonna resonate with everything that you write about, and it's a beautiful tool that you've kindly gifted to me.

谢谢你。

Thank you.

我迫不及待想亲自读一读。

I cannot wait to read it myself.

也祝贺你的新书发布。

Congratulations on the launch as well.

谢谢。

Thank you.

非常感谢你今天抽出时间来和我聊天。

And I'm very grateful for your time to come and chat with me today.

我非常期待与你保持联系，并继续向你学习。

I'm very much looking forward to staying connected and continuing to learn from you.

所以非常感谢你今天做客这个节目。

So I really appreciate you coming on the show today.

非常感谢你。

Thank you so much.