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我是肖恩·芬内西。
I'm Sean Fennessey.
我是阿曼达·多宾斯。
I'm Amanda Dobbins.
这是《25 for 25》，一场关于《血色将至》的全景式特别对话节目，而我已经抛弃了我的孩子。
And this is 25 for 25, a big picture special conversation show about there will be blood and I have abandoned my child.
我们将讨论保罗·托马斯·安德森执导、丹尼尔·戴-刘易斯主演的这部杰作，嗯。
We're going to talk about why this masterpiece from Paul Thomas Anderson starring Daniel Day Lewis Mhmm.
保罗·达诺、基兰·海恩斯以及众多其他杰出演员的作品，将在接下来的内容中登场。
Paul Dano, Kieran Hines, a great number of other wonderful actors is going to be on our list right after this.
本集《全景》由亚马逊Prime赞助播出。
This episode of the big picture is presented by Amazon Prime.
你有没有发现，每部经典的节日电影里，总有一场最后时刻的慌乱，只为把一切凑齐？
You know how in every great holiday movie, there's that last minute scramble to make it all come together?
无论是礼物还是待客必需品，Prime的快速配送总能在节日期间为你提供支持，尤其是在最后一刻、刻不容缓的时候。
From gifts to hosting essentials, Prime's fast shipping is always there for you during the holidays, especially when it's last minute and just can't wait.
所以如果你需要快速免费的配送来救场，那就选Prime。
So if you need fast free delivery that saves the day, it's on Prime.
立即前往 amazon.com/prime 购买吧。
Head to amazon.com/prime to shop now.
好的。
Okay.
好了，来了。
Well Here it is.
这是保罗·托马斯·安德森的电影。
It's the Paul Thomas Anderson movie.
是的。
Yeah.
我们等了好久了。
We've been waiting a long time.
它不是第一名。
It's not number one.
听好了。
Listen.
不是的。
It's not.
不是的。
It's not.
它从来就不可能是。
It was never going to be.
我们确定吗？
Are we sure about that?
我们确定吗？
Are we sure about that?
我确定。
I'm sure about that.
好的。
Okay.
我认为，大多数参与猜测这份榜单上最终影片及其排序的人，
And I think that most people who have engaged in the sport of guessing what the final movies on this list would be and the order in which they would be arranged.
是的。
Yes.
他们一直说第二名是《血色将至》。
They've been saying number two, there will be blood.
第一名是《宝宝老板》。
Number one, Boss Baby.
是的。
Yes.
他们已经意识到，第一名其实另有其片。
They have they have figured out that there is a different number one.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我想，仔细观看节目的观众会明白，这份榜单是我们之间的约定。
And I guess close observers of the show will understand that this is a list between us.
所以呢，这个片子从第三名升到了第二名。
And so this is you know, this got bumped up from three to two.
嗯。
Mhmm.
在另一个世界里，它可能是第一名，也许在你的榜单上是这样。
In a different world, it could be number one, maybe on your list.
嗯。
Mhmm.
它本该是第一名，但这是一个集体榜单。
It would be number one, but this is a collective list.
它
It
是的。
is.
我也想再次强调一下，就像我们在过去十到十五甚至二十五集中说过的那样，我们已经超越了排名的意义。
I do also wanna reiterate, as we have said for the past 10 to 15 to 25 episodes, we have we have, like, passed the point of numbers.
嗯。
Mhmm.
你知道的？
You know?
我们已经超越了排名。
We are beyond rankings.
超越数学。
Post math.
是的。
Yes.
我们现在只是沉浸在纯粹的电影之中。
We are just here swimming in pure cinema.
这就是氛围。
This is vibes.
这些只是氛围。
These are only vibes.
对我来说，没有任何电影比《血色将至》更有氛围了。
There's no greater vibe than There Will Be Blood to me.
如果这是我的个人榜单，这部电影一定会排第一。
If this were my list alone, this would be my number one.
在我看来，这是二十一世纪电影制作的绝对巅峰。
This is to me the absolute pinnacle of twenty first century filmmaking.
有非常多的理由支持这一点。
Great many reasons for that.
嗯。
Mhmm.
今天我们可以在这里聊聊这些原因。
Can talk about them here today.
这部电影的摄影风格，和保罗·托马斯·安德森这一时期的许多作品一样，由罗伯特·艾尔斯沃思掌镜。
This film is shot as many of the PTA movies from this period were by Robert Ellsworth.
配乐由约翰尼·格林伍德创作。
Music is by Johnny Greenwood.
这部电影在财务上取得了 modest 的成功。
It was a modest financial success.
它以2500万美元的预算获得了7600万美元的票房。
It made $76,000,000 on a $25,000,000 budget.
这部电影是在PTA长期沉寂之后推出的。
It came after a long period off for PTA.
他在《硬核亨利》和这部电影之间隔了五年，你可以看到这是一种演变，一种语气和风格上的转变，我认为这种趋势一直延续到了他今年上映的影片中。
He took a five year gap between Punch Drunk Love and this film, and you can see it as, like, kind of evolution, a change in tone and style that I think kinda carries through today to the film that he released this year.
关于这部电影，有几个数据点。
Couple of data points on this movie.
它在一定程度上改编自厄普顿·辛克莱的小说《石油》，讲述的是美国石油大亨崛起和石油业扩张的故事。
It is sort of based on oil by Upton Sinclair, a novel about the rise of the oil baron and oil proliferation in this country.
保罗·达诺原本只打算在这部电影中出演一个小角色。
Paul Dano originally only supposed to have a small part in this movie Mhmm.
我认为这一点非常值得注意，原因很多，我们将在本集中讨论。
Which I think is very notable for a variety of reasons we will talk about in this episode.
但他原本只是打算扮演保罗·星期日，也就是电影开头出现的那个角色。
But he was just supposed to play Paul Sunday, the character we see early in the film.
对。
Right.
而且这两兄弟原本并不打算设定为双胞胎。
And the two brothers were not meant to be twins.
嗯。
Mhmm.
在演员凯尔·奥尼尔被辞退后，达诺接下了这两个角色。
And after the actor, Kell O'Neill, was fired from the movie, Dano slid into both roles.
我认为这是一个相当关键的命运转折。
Pretty critical twist of fate there, I would say.
我不是说如果没发生这件事电影就会失败，但我确实觉得我们会以稍微不同的方式看待它。
I'm not saying the movie would have been unsuccessful if that had not happened, but I do think we see it a little bit differently.
是的。
Yeah.
达诺只有四天时间准备扮演埃利这个角色。
Dano had four days to prepare for the role of Eli.
这听起来很难，因为他要扮演一位福音派牧师，与丹尼尔·戴-刘易斯对戏。
That sounds hard because he's playing an evangelical preacher opposite Daniel Day Lewis.
他们是两个不同的角色。
They are different characters.
是的。
Yeah.
那些演讲中有大量的台词。
There are a lot of words in those speeches.
没错。
Yes.
迪伦·弗雷泽，那个扮演H.W.普兰蒂、丹尼尔·普兰蒂——这位石油大亨的年轻男孩——不是专业演员，是从德克萨斯的一所学校里选出来的，之后再也没有演过戏。
Dylan Fraser, the young boy who plays HW Plainview, Daniel Plainview, the oil barons, Young son, not a professional actor, plucked out of a Texas school, never acted again.
这是他唯一一次出现在银幕上，这非常有趣。
This is the only time he's ever been on screen, which is fascinating.
这部电影本身，我认为大多数听众都知道这个故事，但我还是简单介绍一下情节，以防你还没看过《血色将至》——说实话，你要是没看过却听了这个节目，我真不敢相信。
The movie itself, I think most people listening know the story, but I'll share the shape of it just in case you have if you haven't seen There Will Be Blood, I cannot believe you listened to this show, candidly.
冷酷的银矿矿工转行成为石油勘探者的丹尼尔·普兰维尤搬到了石油资源丰富的加利福尼亚。
Ruthless silver miner turned oil prospector Daniel Plainview moves to oil rich California.
利用他收养的儿子H.
Using his adopted son, H.
为了塑造一个值得信赖的顾家男人形象，普兰维尤欺骗当地地主，以极低的价格买下他们珍贵的土地。
To project a trustworthy family man image, Plainview cons local landowners into selling him their valuable properties for a pittance.
然而，当地牧师埃利·桑迪亚怀疑普兰维尤的动机和意图，逐渐展开一场缓慢却致命的对抗，威胁到两人的生命。
However, local preacher Eli Sunday suspects Plainview's motives and intentions, starts a slow burning feud that threatens both their lives.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以，关于这部电影为何被视为杰作、为何蕴藏着丰富的主题内涵，这些显而易见的理由。
So there's the obvious stuff about why this movie is considered a masterpiece and a thematic well full of black gold.
比如，它确实有很多
Like, there is a lot
双关语。
of Pun intended.
是的。
Yes.
地表上有大量的渗漏。
There is a lot of seepage on the surface.
嗯。
Mhmm.
对吧？
Right?
这体现了美国理念的两种孪生力量。
There is this these two twin powers of the idea of America.
一种是金钱与工业，另一种是上帝与宗教，它们之间发生了冲突。
There's money and industry, and then there's God and religion and the clash.
是的。
Yes.
我喜欢这部电影的这些方面。
And I like those things about the movie.
我觉得它们刻画得很好。
I think they're well drawn.
我觉得它们的夸张恰到好处。
I think they're properly overdramatic.
你知道的。
You know?
宏大而夸张，嗯。
Big, grand Mhmm.
有时荒唐又荒谬。
Times silly and preposterous.
这并不是我最喜欢这部电影的地方。
It's not my my favorite thing about the movie.
我觉得这也不是让这部电影脱颖而出的关键。
And I think I don't think it's the thing that distinguishes the movie.
但我认为，你需要这样宏大的东西，来调和电影中其他所有让人愉悦的元素，至少在我看来是这样。
But you need something this big, I think, to leaven it with all of the other things that make the movie so enjoyable, in my opinion.
是的。
Yes.
它正在承担起……
It is it's taking on.
我的意思是，这是保罗·托马斯·安德森的代表作，它探讨了美国、资本主义、野心、父子关系，还有加州，以及他作品中所有深刻的主题，同时也触及了所谓重要电影史的核心议题。
I mean, this is Paul Thomas Anderson's capital I, like, important movie, and it is taking on the themes of, you know, America and capitalism and ambition and fathers and sons that and and, you know, California and, like, everything that is potent in his work, but also in, quote, unquote, important film history.
嗯。
Mhmm.
在这个背景和这部电影中，传奇人物的形象格外突出，这并非对前人的回应，而是保罗·托马斯·安德森直接吸纳了他之前的一切，创造出属于自己的版本。
The the legends loom large in, like, in this setting and in this movie, and it's a direct not even response, but, like, it is it is Paul Thomas Anderson, like, cannibalizing all of all that came before him and making his own version of it.
嗯。
Mhmm.
因此，它不仅要披上前人作品的外衣，还要精准地重现伟大电影的所有基调，唯有如此，才能让保罗·托马斯·安德森以他独特的方式加以改造，使这部电影不仅成为一部关于美国野心与金钱的宏大论述，更是一部令人不安、令人不适、直击灵魂的电影——关于一个人，也许这个人潜藏在我们每个人身上，也许并没有。
And so it needs to not just wear the clothes of everything that came before it, but, like, hit all the notes of great cinema before for it then to be able to tweak it in all of the ways that Paul Thomas Anderson does and to make this movie not just, you know, a grand treatise on, you know, ambition in America and and money, but also just, like, really discomforting, like, fucked up, gets under your skin movie about, like, a person and maybe a person who lurks in all of us, but also, like, maybe a person who doesn't.
而且，你知道，无论你如何回应，影片中都有一种疏离感，我认为这是它非常有力的一部分。
And there is, you know, whether you respond like, there's there's an alienation to it that I think is a very powerful part of the film as well.
但它必须显得怪异，因为
But it, like, it has to be weird for
是的。
Yeah.
尽管它属于宏大的西部片传统，但它确实很怪异。
And and it is weird despite being, you know, in the in the grand western tradition.
没错。
That's right.
我认为它有很多那种拓荒者小镇西部片的特征，是的。
I think it I think it has a lot of hallmarks of those kind of settler town westerns Yeah.
还有那些关于国家关键事物演变的宏大历史题材电影。
And those big important period films about the evolution of something critical to the country.
但它本质上也是一部哥特式恐怖片和一部喜剧。
But it also is basically a gothic horror film and a comedy.
而且，是的。
And Yeah.
他非常自如地将这些元素融合在一起。
He him very comfortably mashing those things up.
我觉得你说得对。
I think you're right.
我认为他，你知道的，吸收了约翰·福特和D。
I think he's, you know, ingesting John Ford and D.
W。
W.
格里菲斯和约翰·休斯顿，是的。
Griffith and John Huston Yeah.
还有特伦斯·马利克和迈克尔·西米诺。
And Terence Malik and Michael Cimino.
所有这些导演以及他们对美国的愿景、他们看待西部的方式，都融入了这部作品中。
Like, all those directors and the kind of the the vision of America that they had, the way that they saw the West is a part of this.
但我感受不到他们的语气，或者那种氛围，没有。
But I don't feel their, like, tone or their No.
你知道，那种角色塑造的方式也不一样。
You know, sense of characterization in the same way.
我觉得这非常不同。
I think it's very different.
我觉得这部电影里有一种既非常幽默又极其险恶的感觉，是的。
I think there is something like simultaneously very funny and very malevolent Yeah.
在这部电影里。
In this movie.
有一种真正的黑暗感。
There's like a real darkness.
不过昨晚我想到一件事，如果我们继续讨论一些沉重的主题，我本人不确定是否曾把这部电影看作是后9/11的作品，但我觉得在这个背景下非常合理。
One thing that struck me last night though, if we're just staying on some of the heavy theme stuff, I'm not sure if I personally ever read this movie as a post 09/11 movie, but I think it makes a lot of sense in that context.
通过拍一部关于石油的电影
By making an oil movie
嗯。
Mhmm.
在9/11事件之后，我们深陷于这些海外战争中。
While we're entrenched in all of these foreign wars in the aftermath of nine eleven.
我不确定安德森在拍摄这部电影时有多少这样的意图，但你知道，他在此之前拍的四部电影，要么是近期的历史题材，要么是设定在当代加州、洛杉矶的家庭故事。
And I'm not sure how much of that was Anderson's intention when he was putting the movie together, but, you know, his previous four films before this are all, you know, either relatively recent history or contemporarily set California, LA family stories.
嗯。
Mhmm.
而这部电影规模更大，政治性更强，对体制的批判也更尖锐。
And this movie is much bigger, much more politicized, much more like potently politicized about systems.
你知道，《性、谎言和录像带》有点像一部关于体制的电影，但那部更像是一个俱乐部式家庭故事，而这部则要深刻得多。
You know, like Boogie Nights kind of is a system movie, but it's all it's like this much much more of like a clubhouse family movie.
所以很有趣的是，在前四部电影中，他在采访中总是滔滔不绝。
And so it's interesting because he's like in the first through those first four films, he was so garrulous in interviews.
他会大量谈论自己的电影、创作意图和内心想法。
He would talk so much about his movies and his intentions and what he was thinking.
对。
Right.
当这部电影出来时，他就不再解释自己了。
And he kinda just stopped explaining himself when this movie came around.
因此，这部电影很容易引发多种解读。
And so I think it lends itself to a lot of interpretation.
我认为，石油在美国历史上确实是一种终极的腐蚀性力量，无论是在国家现代化方面，还是在某种特定资本主义形态的兴起方面，贯穿了美国历史。
And I do think there's something about oil being this, like, the ultimate corrupting force in the history of the country that in terms of its modernization and in terms of, like, the rise of a specific kind of capitalism, you know, like, throughout US history.
在某些群体中，一直有着悠久的社会主义传统。
There is, a long history of, like, socialism in certain segments of the population.
而一旦这种情况开始发生
And, like, once this starts to happen
对。
Right.
在二十世纪之交，许多这类东西开始被从我们的社会中清除。
At the turn of the twentieth century, a lot of that stuff starts to get scrubbed out of our society.
所以我不认为这是这部电影的主旨，但我的看法与2007年第一次看时有所不同，那时我完全被它的恢弘与壮丽所吸引。
And so I don't think that that is necessarily the overarching point of the movie, but I do see it in a in a slightly different way than when I saw it in 2007 where I was just so swept up in the in the grandeur, in the majesty.
伟大的电影经得起这种不同的解读，你知道，就像从一个稍微不同的角度去审视它。
And, like, great movies can withstand this kind of thing, you know, where you're like, look at it from a slightly different prism.
即使几年前我们做《重看》节目讨论这部电影时，我也并没有这样去想。
Even when we when I when we did the rewatchables episode about it a couple years ago, I wasn't really thinking about it that way.
也许在今天看来，我对它的理解有了一些变化。
And maybe I see it a little bit differently in the light of day.
我觉得这并不是
I don't this is
我的意思是，你认为这和我们列表中的上一部电影《25小时》有关吗？那部电影可是关于9·11的。
just mean, do you think that it has anything to do with the fact that the last movie on our list was twenty fifth hour and is, you know, the the nine eleven movie and in question?
我们先不剧透最后一部电影，不过如果你一直留意的话，应该能猜到是哪部。
And we are thinking about without spoiling the last movie, though, if you've been paying attention, you can guess it.
嗯。
Mhmm.
你知道吗，我们一直把它们看作是关于我们国家和美国的三部曲。
You know, we've been thinking about them as a trilogy about about our country and about America.
而且，这又是一份非常美国化的列表。
And this, again, this is a very American list.
我们是好莱坞的孩子，成长于八九十年代。
We are children of of Hollywood Mhmm.
在八九十年代。
In the eighties and nineties.
对不起啊。
Like, we're sorry.
我们为这一点感到抱歉。
We're we're sorry both for that.
我不觉得抱歉。
I'm not sorry.
我为美国感到抱歉。
I I'm sorry for America.
让我直接说出来
Let me just put that out there
现在。
right now.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道吗？
You know?
我觉得是
I think it was
我会说，我们当时有一半是故意的，没错。
I would say that we had, like, half intentionality Sure.
但另一半也只是出于默认的意图，对吧。
But also just half kind of assumed intent Right.
围绕着这三部电影。
Around this trilogy of movies.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这部电影讲的是过去。
And this is the movie about the past.
对吧？
Right?
这部电影讲的是原罪，以及我们是如何走到今天的。
This is a movie about like the original sins and how we kinda got to where we got.
我们年轻时在纽约成长的那个时期，看了《25小时》，那是它的当代版本。
And we saw twenty fifth Hours, the kind of like the contemporary version of it when we were coming of age in New York at a certain time in our lives.
接下来的电影将讲述未来。
And then the next film will be about the future.
对。
Right.
但这部片子就是《银翼杀手2049》。
But and it it and it's Blade Runner 2049.
这个丹尼够格了。
This Denny makes the cut.
恭喜他。
Congratulations to him.
这部电影非常有趣，值得细细品味，因为美国的历史始终充满争议。
It's a really fun movie to kind of pick over because the story of America's unsettled.
你知道的。
You know?
像这样一部野心勃勃的电影，完全可以承载……
Like, a movie that wants to be this big can can handle But
我的意思是，这部电影讲的是美国的过去，但它始终具有现实意义。
I mean, it is a movie about America's past, but it it is, you know, forever applicable.
你提到电影里的那个人，丹尼尔·普兰维尤，由丹尼尔·戴-刘易斯饰演，他是个极其精明、邪恶、野心勃勃又成就非凡的石油大亨。
Well, you said something interesting when you said that this man who's in the movie, Daniel Plainview, played by Daniel Day Lewis, who is this incredibly shrewd, evil Mhmm.
一位极具野心且成就卓著的石油大亨。
Highly ambitious and accomplished oil magnate.
他们就像是，也许他存在于我们内心，或者对我来说，他更像是一种美国人的性格。
That they're like, we maybe he's inside of us or maybe maybe he's like, to me, he's more like he is the American character.
你知道，这种观念就是，你被灌输了这种不懈追求成功、成长、做更多、不断侵占更多空间的冲动。
You know, that's the thing of like, you're kinda you're preached this, you know, unrelenting drive to succeed, to grow, to do more, to encroach upon literally more and more space
在这个世界上。
in the world.
你确实如此。
You you are.
美国男人就是这样，我认为这确实是一部非常非常男性化的电影。
The American man is, which I do think, you know, there is this is a very, very male movie.
那女性角色呢？
What about the she eos?
那些女老板呢？
What about the girl bosses?
她们不也被鼓励去做同样的事吗？
Are they not encouraged to do the same?
是的。
Yeah.
我们整整晚了四十年。
We're, like, forty years too late.
你知道的？
You know?
对。
Right.
然后，只要有人看了他们的Slack消息，我们就又被赶走了。
And then and then as soon as anyone read their Slack messages, we got told to go away again.
是的。
Yes.
这部电影里的女性不多。
Not a lot of women in this film.
没错。
No.
这不是什么大事，但你知道吗？
It's not something that but you know what?
可能很准确。
Probably accurate.
我的意思是，直截了当。
That I mean, to the point.
我不是说这部电影是男性主导的是一种批评，但我确实感受到，你知道，我不会看到这种美国理想化身时觉得，是的，这就是我被教导要成为的样子。
I'm not saying it's a very male movie as a critique, but I do experience it as a like, you know, I I don't I don't watch this embodiment of the American ideal and think like, yeah, that's what I, like, was taught to be.
嗯。
Mhmm.
也许这其中一部分是由于我的性别和所处时代的社会政治因素，另一部分只是我觉得，这有点过头了。
And maybe some of that is, you know, sociopolitical of, you know, my gender and time, and and some of that is just me being like, that's that's that's a little much.
喂，冷静点，先生。
Like, calm down, sir.
是的。
Yeah.
但我的意思是，这是一种充满愤怒和杀戮的循环。
But but I mean a rageful, murderous cycle.
嗯，一开始并不是这样。
Well, not at the beginning.
我们其实并不知道。
Well, we don't know.
那是其中一部分。
That's part
这部分确实是这样的，我想这是对的。
of what that's I guess that's true.
这是这部电影精妙设计的一部分，过去五年里，我们一直在讨论恐怖片，特别是它们为何总觉得自己有必要解释导致这些事件发生的前因。
That's part of the ingenious design of the movie, and we've been having conversations over the last five years about horror movies in particular and the way in which they feel the need to explain the events that take us to this point.
我觉得丹尼尔·普兰维尤这个角色特别丰富的一点是，我们没有看到任何闪回，比如他小时候被欺负，或者感谢上帝，他是个压抑的同性恋孩子，无法表达自己，于是就把情绪发泄到世界上。
And one thing that I find so rich about Daniel Plainview is we don't get a flashback where he gets Thank God.
我们没有看到他九岁时被欺凌的场景，也没有看到他是个 closeted gay 孩子，无法表达自我，于是只能把情绪发泄到这个世界。
Bullied at nine years old or we see that he's a closeted gay kid and he can't express himself, so he has to take it out on the world.
或者我们会想到各种可能的解释，比如这就是普兰维尤变成这样的原因。
Or we there there are all these different ways you could be like, well, this is why Plainview is the way that he is.
这部电影对此并不感兴趣。
The movie is not interested in that.
是的。
Yeah.
对于一部在我看来有着如此宏大野心、试图传达关于其角色和整个世界深层含义的电影来说，那样做就太简单了。
That would be a little bit too simple for a movie that I think has this kind of ambition in terms of what it's trying to communicate about its characters in the world at large.
我非常喜欢这一点。
I really like that about it.
我也很喜欢。
I do as well.
我真的很喜欢它没有这样做，而在保罗·托马斯·安德森的脑海中，他可能什么都知道。
I really like that it doesn't and there in Paul Thomas Anderson's head, he may know everything.
或者在丹尼尔·戴-刘易斯饰演这个角色时，他可能也有自己对角色的理解。
Or in Daniel Day Lewis' head when he was preparing the character, he may have his idea of what it was.
对。
Right.
而且电影甚至给了我们一些角色谈论过去的时刻。
And the movie even gives us moments where characters talk about the past.
你知道，当他说到，我曾经在堪萨斯做地质研究，我不得不离开那里，而且我不喜欢为自己解释。
You know, when he says, like, I was working at geological research in Kansas, and I had to get out of there, and I don't like to explain myself.
然后他说完就停了下来。
And then that and then he stops talking.
这是我们在这部电影中真正听到他过去经历的少数时刻之一。
And it's one of the only times we really hear about his past in the movie.
我喜欢这种想法，你知道，路西法就这样突然降临到这个国家。
I like the idea of, you know, Lucifer just kind of landed on on this country.
而且
And
不过，我的意思是，我也这么认为，我真的很欣赏这种缺乏解释的感觉。
Though I I mean, I I do as well, and I I really, really appreciate the lack of explanation or really.
我的意思是，这只是一个回应式的批评，对吧？
I mean, that's just a responsive critique, right?
在过去的五到十年里，我们不必再看那种经典的创伤闪回场景。
To five, ten years, not just in horror movies of us having to watch like the flashback original trauma scene.
我们就会说，是的，这真的很悲伤。
We're like, yes, it's very sad.
你爸爸对你很刻薄。
Your dad was like mean to you.
根据我在电影里看到的一切，我相当确定丹尼尔·普兰维尤的父亲对他很刻薄，但我并不需要亲眼看到这些场景。
And I'm I'm pretty sure that Daniel Plainview's dad was mean to him based on everything I've seen in the film, but I don't need that shown to me.
人们自然会这么假设。
One assumes.
我不需要把这一切具象化，但
I don't need to literalize But
他爸爸其实挺酷的。
his dad was really cool.
他就只是想成为丹尼尔的朋友。
Just like and he just wanted to be Daniel's friend.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道的？
You know?
他就说，你想去冲浪吗？
And he was just like, do you got you wanna go surfing?
对。
Right.
你知道的？
You know?
但昨晚我重看的时候，我做得不错，我们先别谈冲浪了，待会儿再说。
But so I when I was rewatching last night, the I did well, can we we'll come back to surfing in a second.
我看了他坐在火车上，怀里抱着篮子里的婴儿的那个场景。
I I was watching the scene of him on the train with the with the baby in the basket.
嗯。
Mhmm.
婴儿正抓着他的胡须。
And the baby is just grabbing at his facial hair.
我当时想，他现在是坏人吗？
And there is a I was like, is he evil right now?
那个时刻有一种非常温柔的感觉。
There there is something very tender about that moment.
是的。
Yes.
而且对我来说，这旨在为这个角色对这个孩子产生情感奠定基础。
And very and to me is meant to lay the foundation of that this character feels something for this child.
嗯。
Mhmm.
还有几个类似的时刻，是的。
And there are a few other moments like that Yes.
这对我来说暗示了它并不是所谓的天降神兵，或者像路西法般的机械降神。
That to me suggest that it's not, you know, Deus ex or like Lucifer ex Machina.
嗯。
Mhmm.
那是当然，但我的理解是基于昨晚观看后的一些思考，
That's well But but I don't but, you know, that's my interpretation based on watching it last night and wondering about
它。
it.
我认为毫无疑问，丹尼尔·普兰维尤对他的养子H.W.是有爱的，他以对待其他任何人都不会的方式向他表达温情。
I think there's no doubt that Daniel Plainview has love for HW, his adopted son, that he shows him affection in a way he shows no other person.
他唯一对其他人表现出温情的时候是对待玛丽，因为H.W.对玛丽表现出爱意。
That the only time he shows affection to another person is Mary because HW shows affection for Mary.
因此，他真正愿意在情感上投入时间的只有他的儿子。
And so the only person that he really has time for emotionally is his son.
所以，他并不是撒旦本身。
So it's not that he is Satan himself.
我不该这么说。
I shouldn't say that.
但我认为这想向我们展示的是，这种程度的权力和财富有多么腐蚀性，最终他抛弃了儿子，失去了儿子。
But I think what that's meant to show us is just how corrupting this level of power and wealth is, that he ultimately rejects his son and loses his son.
即使他对儿子的爱，也不足以支撑这个如此深陷混乱与愤怒的人。
And that even though that love that he feels for him is not enough to sustain this just deeply disturbed and angry person.
我认为这非常有力，因为小H.W.实在太可爱了。
And I think that's pretty powerful because one h h w adorable.
你知道吗？
You know?
我的意思是
I mean
只是……太令人心碎了。
Just to just to The heartbreaking.
真是个可爱的小孩。
Really cute kid.
是的。
Yeah.
很有趣的是，你觉得这是一部喜剧电影，但我觉得所有与HW相关的情节都让我非常难过，以至于我根本笑不出来。
It's funny that you find this a funny movie because I find all of the HW stuff so upsetting that I just like, I can't laugh throughout any of it.
一点都笑不出来。
Like, not not once.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
不。
No.
昨晚当我看到HW在钻井平台上，天然气爆炸引发大火的那一幕时，我忍不住哭了出来，那确实是电影史上最非凡的场景之一。
I I I I burst into tears last night with the scene when HW is on the the derrick and it explodes with the gas and then it leads to the fire, which is just truly one of the most extraordinary set pieces in movie history.
我真的不明白他们是怎么拍出这个效果的。
I it I do not understand how they made that work.
他们从零开始建造了那个场景。
They built that from the ground up.
那个场景中有大量的特效工作。
There's tremendous effects work in that scene.
但当你看到是霍华德被炸飞，然后电影中的声音突然消失，我们很快就能意识到霍华德失去了听力。
But when you see that it's HW who's the one who's blown off and then the sound cuts out of the film, and we we know pretty quickly that HW has lost his hearing.
最终，他的父亲找到他，把他抱回食堂，让他躺下，试图和他交流，但他听不见。
And eventually, his father retrieves him and carries him back to the mess hall, and he lays him down, and he's trying to communicate with him, and he can't hear.
他说：我听不到自己的声音。
And he says, I can't hear my voice.
当他站起来要离开的时候。
And then when he gets up to leave And there.
去查看一下奶制品。
To go look at the dairy.
他大喊：别去。
He yells don't go.
他说，别走。
And he says, don't leave.
别走。
Don't go.
这太令人心碎了。
That's crushing.
但我认为，这最终表明，对他来说最重要的东西是在外面。
But I think that's the that is the sign ultimately that what's most important to him is outside.
那就是HW所不拥有的东西
That it's what HW is not
最重要的东西。
most important.
那就是，他，是的。
That that, like, he yeah.
或者他在那一刻做出了选择。
Or he he's, makes the choice in that moment.
是的。
Yes.
对我来说，这是一种非常棒的主题叙事方式。
And to me, that's, like, great thematic storytelling.
这不需要解释，比如需要去看看我的井。
That that is without explaining, like, need to go see my well.
你知道的。
You know?
就像，是的。
Like Yeah.
这更多是关于角色在没有讨论的情况下所做的事情，对吧。
It's much more about what the characters are doing without discussing it Right.
并展示他们最终的优先事项在哪里。
And showing us where their priorities ultimately lie.
我发现P.T.A.在他的电影中非常擅长通过角色的行为来探索和解释他们的感受和动机。
I find PTA to be extremely good at this in his movies of using character action to explore and explain how they're feeling and what they're motivated by.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我认为这部电影非常感人，你说得对。
So I I do think that the movie is very emotional, and you're right.
平原先生并不是纯粹的邪恶，他更像是某种可能性的载体。
Plainview is not pure evil, but he's like a vessel for what can happen.
对。
Right.
而且那就是他转变的时刻，他一直在转变。
But and like that is that's the moment of him turning, and he keeps turning.
你知道吗？你写过，你和我一样，都被丹尼尔把HW留在火车上、让他去上学的那个场景深深触动。
I you know, you wrote that you're also very affected, as am I, by the scene of Daniel leaving HW on the train when he, like, goes off to school.
那场景和他们初到小波士顿时的镜头相呼应，对吧。
And it's like and it's and it mirrors the shot of them arriving in Little Boston Mhmm.
那时你在火车上，看着他们驶过小镇。
Where you are on the train and watching them drive through the town.
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然后这次你坐在火车上，突然看到丹尼尔在车里望着火车驶过。
And then this time you're on the train and you suddenly are with Daniel in the car watching the train go by.
这真的、真的、真的让人很难过。
It's I mean, it's really, really, really upsetting.
但紧接着，在几个场景之后，当基兰·海因茨的角色送完他回来时，我彻底崩溃了。
But then I basically lost it at a seat like a couple scenes later when the Kieran Heinz character comes back from dropping him off.
丹尼尔问：他的房间有多大？
And Daniel's like, how big is his room?
他的房间有多大？
How big is his room?
他的房间有多大？
How big is his room?
这种写法太棒了，传达出他依然关心着某件事。
Which is incredible writing that communicates that there's like still he's still concerned about something.
但他所关心的，同时也在表达他真正重视的东西。
But what he is concerned about is like an expression of what he values at the same time.
所以他无法完全放手。
So he can't quite let go.
这就像一个人正在实时失去对自身价值体系的掌控。
And it's just a person losing their grip on, like, on their value system in real time.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，这个想法是
I mean, the the idea that
什么是真正的
What real
儿子值得拥有的生活，是的。
life son deserves Yeah.
适应，但他只能通过维度来真正理解它。
Accommodations, but he can only really understand it by way of dimensionality.
你知道吧？
You know?
就像，这其实并没有什么，但非常有力。
Like, there's not really it's very powerful.
当保罗出现在比尔·西蒙斯的节目上时，我和他还有比尔聊过，他解释说，拍这部电影时他刚有了一个新生儿。
When when Paul came on the show on Bill Simmons' show, and I I talked with him then with Bill, he explained that he had a newborn child when they when he was making this movie.
我发现，丹尼尔和HW之间的关系很大程度上源于那种天翻地覆的感觉。
And I find that a lot of the relationship between Daniel and HW is informed by that crazy making feeling
嗯。
Mhmm.
当一个婴儿突然闯入你的生活时，这个故事就是这样被解释的。
When a baby just drops into the middle of your life, and that's how this story is explained.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道，HW是一个在工作中与丹尼尔一起丧生的男人的儿子，丹尼尔收养了他。
You know, HW is the son of a a man who's killed working alongside Daniel, and Daniel just adopts him.
当你有了孩子，那种感觉就是这样。
And that is kind of what it's like when you have a baby.
尤其是对于没有经历过怀孕的人来说，
I don't especially for somebody who didn't carry a
孩子。
baby.
我本来想说，这非常不同。
I was gonna say it's very different.
但没错。
But yes.
首先，你曾经不存在，然后你就出现了。
First, you were you you know, there was no you and then you're here.
是的。
Yeah.
它对你来说是世界上最重要的事。
And it's it is the most important thing in the world to you.
这些是我发现这部电影探讨得不够多的想法。
And like the these are ideas I find that are not explored about this movie as much.
我一开始提到的是美国与石油，还有正义。
Like I opened this conversation with the America and oil and Right.
还有上帝。
And God.
但我认为最打动我的，是这种感受持续存在，超越了我最初看到它时那种‘天啊’的感觉。
But I I think I'm most moved by it and continue it persists for me beyond that feeling I had where I was like, oh my god.
我第一次看这部电影时就爱上了它。
I love this so much the first time that I saw it.
因为它越看越深刻。
Because it just gets deeper and deeper.
当你年纪渐长，一些东西依然让人有共鸣。
Like, you get a little bit older and some of the things still feel
是的。
Yeah.
更强大。
More powerful.
就像两位父母在讨论电影中的育儿话题。
Like q two parents talking about, you know, parenthood in movies.
但不是。
But no.
但确实，生了孩子之后再看几次这部电影，哪些地方有趣、哪些重要、关注点确实会变化，这完全是自然的。
It it it is true that rewatching this a couple times after having kids, it what's funny, what's important, the the points of emphasis, like, do shift, and that's that's completely natural.
不过这很有趣。
It's it's interesting though.
对我来说，你说得对，确实像一个婴儿突然闯入了你的生活。
This to me you're right that there is a literal like baby dropped into your life.
你知道，这就像石油领域的婴儿潮。
You know, it is like, you know, baby boom but for oil.
而且
And
这也是一部关于工业和商业的电影。
Also a film about industry and commerce.
当然。
Sure.
我本来想说
Was gonna say
还有抱负和成功。
And ambition and success.
但这样一来，真是绝配的双片联映。
But then I Great double feature.
我认为你说得对，这确实很贴切地展现了成为父亲的经历。
And I think that you're right that this is a pretty apt experience of what it's like to become a father.
嗯。
Mhmm.
然后这个人就突然出现了。
And this person just shows up.
但与此同时，对我来说，这部电影依然感觉像是由一个儿子而非父亲所写，这样说你能理解吗？或者说，至少是出自一个仍主要以儿子身份经历这段关系的人之手。
But at the same time, this film to me is still I still feel like it's written by a son rather than a father, if that makes any sense, or at least someone who's still who whose most of his experience with that relationship is being the son instead of the father.
片中有三个不同的儿子角色，都在试图弄清楚丹尼尔身上发生了什么，却始终无法真正理解。
And there are, like, three different son figures who are in there trying to figure out what's going on with Daniel, and they can't quite.
而《高斯福庄园》显然展现了从儿子视角出发的父子关系。
And, obviously, Magnolia is, you know, the the father son relationship from the son.
和《不夜城》一样。
Same as Boogie Nights.
是的。
Yeah.
Dirt Diggler 和 Jack Warner。
Dirt Diggler and Jack Warner.
是的。
Yeah.
这是关键转折点。
Is the flex point.
是的。
Yeah.
而真正的高手才是关键所在。
And and really the master is the flex point.
但去思考这一点很有趣，因为确实是一场又一场的战斗，但他最近的电影却是从另一方的角度出发。
And then but it but it was interesting to think about that because certainly one battle after another, but his most recent movies are, like, from the other side.
电影。
Movies.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
看着这种转变真的很有趣。
And it's it's interesting to, like, to watch it shift.
是的。
Yeah.
我同意你的看法。
I I agree with you.
我认为这也是因为这部电影极具圣经色彩。
I think it's also because the movie is so biblical.
literally 有一个亚伯，他是两个男孩的父亲。
There's literally an Abel who is the father of two boys.
你知道，有很多这样的线索，关于成年男性和他们年幼子女之间艰难的关系，他们如何产生分歧、争执，以及这些冲突如何对周围所有人产生巨大影响。
Know, like there is this there's a lot of these threads of this the difficult relationships that grown men and their young children have and the ways in which they disagree and thrash and the way that that has like tremendous consequences on everyone around them.
这部电影在这方面非常巧妙。
The movie is very clever about that.
它还巧妙地展现了每个人内心的双重性。
And it's also clever about like kind of the duality in all people.
埃利和保罗是双胞胎这个设定，以及他们之间被分割开的部分。
The idea of Eli and Paul being twins and what's split between them.
其中一些其实是偶然造成的。
And some of that is like happenstance.
你知道，这部电影并不是原本就打算这样拍的。
Know, the movie wasn't written to be that way.
但当你看完电影后，你会觉得，哦，这实际上加深了我对这些内容的理解。
But then when you watch the movie, you're like, oh, this actually deepens my understanding of some of this stuff.
所以，即使你抛开电影中所有那些沉重宏大的主题，单从纯粹的电影制作角度来看，它也非常出色。
So even if you just put aside all this big heavy thematic stuff that's coursing throughout the movie, From a purely movie making perspective, I It's quite good.
我非常赞同，双手赞成。
I it is I'm Two thumbs up.
我在想，什么样的夸张说法才最恰当。
I'm trying to think of what's the right of right correct hyperbole.
我之前写下了‘全能电影’这个词，我们很久以来一直在拿‘全能电影，宝贝’这个说法开玩笑。
Like I wrote down Total Cinema, and we've been making a joke about Total Cinema, baby, for a long time.
但当你考虑到美术设计、格林伍德为电影配乐，以及整体达到的另一个层次时，这是他第一部没有约翰·布莱恩担任作曲的电影。
But when you consider the production design and the Greenwood scoring the film and just kinda going to another level, this is his first film without John Bryan as the composer.
还有那些漫长的场景——火车的建造、钻井架的搭建，以及教堂在石油工业阴影下运作的意象。
And the long stretches, the building of the train and the derricks and the idea of the church operating in the shadow of the oil.
然后你再想想演员阵容。
And then you consider the cast.
我们可以稍微聊聊丹尼尔·戴-刘易斯，以及这代表了什么。
We can talk a little bit about Daniel Day Lewis and maybe what this means.
今年早些时候，我们和大卫·西姆斯一起做过一期丹尼尔·戴-刘易斯名人堂。
We did do the Daniel Day Lewis Hall of Fame earlier this year with David Sims.
对于他来说，这部电影显然是自动入选的。
And this was an auto green for him obviously.
他凭借这一表演赢得了奥斯卡奖。
He won an Academy Award for this performance.
是的。
Mhmm.
我认为这是二十一世纪最出色的表演。
I believe it is the performance of the twenty first century.
这很公允。
That's fair.
我认为你确实可以提出这样的观点。
I do think you could make a case.
告诉我你怎么看这个。
Tell me what you think about this.
这像是某种表演风格或表演人格的终结——那种完全投入角色、不再容易被嘲讽的人。
That this is like the end of a certain style of acting or a certain style of like acting persona communication, the person who like completely turns themself over to something and then not being ripe for mockery.
你知道的吗？
You know?
听起来丹尼尔·戴-刘易斯在拍摄这部电影时很难相处。
Like, it sounds like Daniel Day Lewis was challenging on the set of this film.
没错。
Right.
你知道吧？
You know?
因为他一直在努力完全融入角色。
Because he was trying to embody plain view all the time.
我想起迈克尔·舒尔曼在《纽约客》上写的一篇文章，讲的是杰里米·斯特朗如何因为太过认真而遭到抨击。
And, you know, I think back to that New Yorker piece that Michael Schulman wrote about Jeremy Strong and how Jeremy Strong just kinda gets, like, pilloried for being too serious.
那时候，人们还不像现在这样嘲笑装腔作势。
And this was a time before pretension was mocked in the same way.
我不觉得这是丹尼尔·戴-刘易斯最后一次能这样做的机会了，毕竟他演了《林肯》，说话还带着那种口音。
If I don't think it's the last time that Daniel Day Lewis gets away with it because, you know, the Lincoln and talking like a Reed.
然后
And then
但当时围绕《林肯》这件事其实有种调侃的氛围。
But there was like a jokiness around the Lincoln thing.
当然。
Sure.
然后甚至
And then Even
以至于CR开发了那些片段。
to the point of CR developing the the the the bits.
你知道吗？
You know?
然后我觉得《魅影》就显得轻松多了，是的。
And then I guess Phantom Thread is just it's a lighter Yeah.
表演。
Performance.
所以
And so
感觉更接近他平时在现实世界中的声音和样子。
And feels closer to maybe just how he sounds and looks in the world sometimes.
我想是吧。
I guess so.
但他就像五十年代的卡地亚。
Though he was like a fifties Catruier.
这你懂吧？
It's not you know?
我的意思是，这更接近他消失一段时间去制作靴子的状态。
It's I mean, that's closer to him disappearing and making boots for a while.
确实是的，但我只是想说，从某种意义上讲，是的。
It it is, but I just mean in terms of, like Yeah.
他说话的语气，以及他作为创意人士所散发出的能量。
Speaking voice and the the energy that he's emitting as a creative person.
这就像一个留着胡子的美国恶魔。
Like, this is like a, you know, mustachioed American demon.
这跟他真实的样子相去甚远。
Like, it's a very different it's very far from who he actually is.
从此以后，你永远都不会再有能超越它的表演了。
Well, forever aft forever after this, you're always just there's no performance that is gonna, like, exceed it.
所以你总是活在它的阴影下，就像有人在《幽灵代笔》里赶DDL一样。
So you're always just in the shadow of it, and it's like someone doing their DDL in Phantom thread.
你知道的？
You know?
而且，这可能非常好。
And, like and that's probably very good.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但这次表演最为突出。
But this performance looms the largest.
确实如此。
It really does.
野心。
Ambition.
嗯。
Mhmm.
你提到男性是被这样教育的。
You mentioned that men are taught this.
是的。
Yeah.
我不确定这是否正确。
I don't I'm not sure if that's true.
我认为这可能是世界传达给我们的信息。
I think it I think maybe it's communicated by the world.
对。
Yeah.
也许就是这样。
Maybe that's it.
但不是
But no
没人坐下来告诉我：你需要努力再努力。
one sat me down and was like, what you need to do is try really hard
去成功。
to succeed.
传递给你的世代以及之前的世代。
Communicated to your generation and the generations before.
但，是的，我确实感觉到，你知道，当我们一起做这个播客项目，还有‘25对25’的时候。
But, yeah, I do feel, you know, as we do this project of this podcast together as well as '25 for '25.
而且也仅仅是观察你、我丈夫以及其他所有人。
And also just observing, you know, you and and and and my husband and all the other people.
在期望方面，他身上有一种关于抱负和炫耀的氛围，这种氛围是传递给你的，这并不是说我缺乏竞争力，也不是我不想变得卓越，但这种期望似乎并没有在我这个年龄段的女性身上建立起来。
There's there's something expectation wise about him, like ambition and and and chest beating that is that is communicated to you that it's not that I'm not competitive, and it's not that I don't wanna be great, but there it's expectation that I guess was not built in for, you know, for women of my age.
所以我感到更自由。
And so I feel freer
如果你真的这样做了。
if you do.
当时的期望是：赤脚怀孕，待在厨房里。
Expectation was barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen.
我明白。
I get it.
我明白。
I get it.
或者嫁个医生，你知道的
Or marry a doctor, which is, you know
那会很棒。
That would have been great.
我会嫁给一个医生的。
I would have married a doctor.
我觉得我在性格上根本没法和医生相处。
I don't I don't feel that I would get along constitutionally with a doctor.
你知道的？
You know?
嗯，我们知道你根本没法和牙医相处。
Well, we know you couldn't speak to a dentist.
那么这件事就完全不可能了。
Well So that's off the table completely.
至于丹尼尔·戴-刘易斯如何展现野心这一主题，我认为他极其出色地呈现了那种永不放弃的驱动力，以及不知如何驾驭这种驱动力的状态。
As far as Daniel Day Lewis, like, communicating the ambition stuff, I think that he is incredibly good at showing like this relentless drive and then not knowing really what to do with that drive.
因此，他当然成了酒鬼，不断寻找另一个人来利用，另一个人来……嗯。
And so, of course, he becomes an alcoholic and he is constantly looking for another person to use and another person to, you know Mhmm.
对他大喊大叫，对他感到沮丧。
Yell at and become frustrated with.
他也有几个时刻展现出些许脆弱。
He does have a few moments where he's kind of more vulnerable.
那个自称是他兄弟的男人走进了他的生活，他一度觉得终于有个人可以倾诉，可以稍微展现一点脆弱，即使他是在解释自己有多讨厌世界上所有人。
The man who presumes who is you know, announces himself as his brother comes into his life, and he feels like he has someone for a moment that he can confide in and be a little bit more vulnerable even if he's explaining how he doesn't like anybody in the world
是的。
Yeah.
在那个精彩的场景中。
During that amazing scene.
那场戏依然非常精彩。
That scene is still so brilliant.
但你知道，那些男人会建立一个石油帝国，而不是去做别的事情。
But, you know, the the the the the men will will build an oil empire Instead of going thing.
这一点在这里也适用。
To It does apply here.
就像，这个人如果能有一个真正可以倾诉的人，或许会过得好一点。
Like, this is a person who maybe if he just had one person he could really talk to, might be doing a little bit better.
是的。
Yeah.
我想是吧。
I guess so.
但那样就不是一个好故事了。
But then it's not a good story.
你知道吗？
You know?
这就是关键。
That is the thing.
比如，心理治疗是好电影的敌人。
Like, therapy is the enemy of good cinema.
这确实非常正确。
It's very, very true.
对我们来说是这样，但其实没什么帮助。
For us, but it's really not helpful.
而且，再说一遍，也许如果他能理解的话。
And, again, that's maybe if he even understood.
你知道的。
You know?
我猜一个治疗师会说，我们确实需要找到童年时期的场景。
I I suppose a therapist would be like, we do need to locate the childhood scene.
你知道的。
You know?
我们需要理解
We need to understand
是的。
Yes.
发生了什么。
What's going on.
对。
Yeah.
我不
I don't
想要那部电影。
want that film.
对。
Yeah.
我不想把他的治疗过程拍下来供我娱乐。
I don't want his therapy session filmed for my entertainment.
我认为，从PTA在之前和之后拍摄的电影来看，他确实是一位伟大的综合大师。
I think also in terms of the movies that PTA was making before this and after this really, like, he's a master synthesis.
他和他的许多同代人非常相似，比如塔伦蒂诺、索德伯格。
He's very similar to a lot of his contemporaries, Tarantino, Soderbergh.
这些人几乎看遍了七十五年的电影史，读过大量书籍，对故事有着深刻的理解。
These guys who have like watched seventy five years of film history and read a lot of books and understand story at a high level.
因此，他们不断从各种来源汲取灵感。
And so they're constantly pulling things in.
这很少见，因为这是对小说的直接改编，至少是《石油》前100页的改编。
This is the rare case of literalizing, adapting a novel or at least parts of a novel, basically the first 100 pages of oil.
接着你看到多尼家族，这个极具影响力的加州家族，真正奠定了他们在贝弗利山庄的庞大势力，正值这座城市崛起之时。
And then you've got the Doheny family, this very powerful California family that kind of established a huge stronghold in Beverly Hills at the really during the real rise of this city.
许多具体细节都取材于真实事件，我觉得这非常有趣，而他此前也曾在其他作品中这样做过。
And a lot of specific details are culled from real life events, which I find fascinating and something that he has done again here and there.
但《性本恶》是对一部小说的改编，而《血色将至》则是对一部小说的半改编。
But, you know, Inherent Vice is an adaptation of a novel, and one battle is a semi adaptation of a novel.
但看到他如此逐字逐句地改编，这很有趣。
But this is interesting to see him so distinctly pulling almost line for line.
例如，我认为这部电影中最令人难忘的台词是‘我喝掉你的奶昔’。
For example, you know, I think the most memorable thing from this movie is I Drink Your Milkshake.
对我来说，‘我喝掉你的奶昔’，是的。
To me, I Drink Your Milkshake Yeah.
这是最早的网络迷因之一。
Is one of the first memes.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我认为，这是21世纪电影中极少数能与‘亲爱的，永远注视着你’相提并论的对白之一。
It's one of the I think genuinely very few lines of dialogue from a twenty first century movie that is on the level of here's looking at you, kid.
你知道吗？
You know?
当你说出这句话时，你就知道自己身处何地。
It's something that when you say that You know exactly where you are.
而且你甚至能清楚地看到保龄球馆的那个镜头。
And you even you see the exact shot of the bowling alley.
是的。
Yes.
还有它的构图方式。
And the and the way that it's framed.
没错。
Exactly.
在你脑海中，你完全可以想象出那一刻发生的情景。
You can in your mind's eye, you know exactly what the moment that it happens.
这很难做到。
That's hard to do.
我认为部分原因是互联网让我们更频繁、更规律地看到这些画面和想法。
I think part of that is because it's just like the Internet has allowed for us to see those images and those ideas more often, more more regularly.
我收回刚才的话。
I take it back.
我喝光了你的奶昔。
I drink your milkshake.
这很有趣。
It's funny.
就像，这太好笑了。
Like I It's hilarious.
我那时候没笑，但确实特别搞笑。
I don't laugh at that point, but that's but it's really funny.
但对我来说，最有趣的是，这句话直接取材于茶壶山丑闻期间的一段真实证词。
But what's so interesting about that to me is that that is pulled directly from a real life testimony during the Teapot Dome scandal.
真的有人说过这句话。
A person actually said that.
他以某种类似平原先生所说的方式解释了这个想法，比如，你知道的，排水问题，还有，如果你的奶昔被我喝光了，我就把它全部吸到我的土地上。
He explained this idea somewhat similarly to what Plainview says about, you know, drainage and, you know, if I drink your milkshake, I pull it all the way over there to to my land.
所以，对我来说，这真是写作上的壮举——把那些真实生活中的想法融入进来，还能保持趣味性和幽默感。
And so, you know, like that's a feat of writing to me to to kinda bring all those real life ideas and pull them into the space and still make that like entertaining, you know, and really funny.
对我来说，这部电影里还有很多其他特别搞笑的时刻。
There's a lot of other really funny moments to me in the movie.
你知道，我特别喜欢说‘是的，做吧’，这正是平原人在第三启示教会受洗时的说话方式。
You know, I am I'm very fond of saying, yes, do, which is how Plainview talks when he's being baptized in the church of the third Revelation.
当标准石油公司的人来到餐厅，而HW被送回家时，平原人已经醉得不行了。
The plain view being absolutely hammered when the Standard Oil guys show up to the restaurant when when HW is returned home.
哦，这真的挺悲伤的。
Oh, that's really sad.
你知道吗？
You know?
是的。
Yeah.
但我觉得还挺搞笑的。
But but I guess funny.
这是一种肢体喜剧，他把餐巾掉在脸上，整个场景是当作笑料来处理的。
It's a physical comedy, and he's like dropping the napkin on his face, and it's it's played for gags.
你知道吧？
You know?
是的。
Yeah.
电影的前十五分钟并不好笑，那是一段令人惊叹的无声片段，展现一个人失败并彻底跌入谷底的过程，你知道的，确实如此。
The first fifteen minutes of the movie is not funny, which is this incredible silent exploration of a person failing and being literally at the absolute bottom of, you know Yeah.
社会，以及他们自己的心态。
Society, their own mentality.
他们简直处于无法想象的最底层。
They're just like on the lowest rung imaginable.
当你生来就处于无法想象的最底层时，你会怎么做？
And what do you do when you're born into the lowest rung imaginable?
那就是爬出来。
It's like, crawl your way out.
从黑暗中爬出来。
Crawl your way out of the darkness.
所以，你知道，基于所有这些原因，这部电影非常特别。
So, you know, I think for all these reasons, the movie is incredibly special.
我确实想聊聊保罗·达诺。
I do wanna talk about Paul Dano.
你知道，他最近上了新闻。
You know, he's been in the news.
当然。
Sure.
就因为这次演出。
For this performance.
就因为这次演出。
For this performance.
所以昆汀·塔伦蒂诺去了布雷迪的分析播客节目，谈到了这部电影让他想起他的
So Quentin Tarantino went on Brady's analysis podcast and he talked about how this movie was on his
清单。
list.
所有这些都很好，开始吧。
All That's great senses start.
当然。
Absolutely.
我只是为这个讨论提供一些背景。
I'm just putting context around this discussion.
但我确实认为值得讨论，因为我长期以来一直这么认为，很多人显然也这么认为，基于巴尔达诺收到的反馈。
But I do think it's worth having because and I have I've long held this as many people have clearly based on the feedback that Baldano's been getting.
昆汀上了那个播客，说这部电影如果不是因为保罗·达诺，本可以是他心中的第一名，而他对达诺的表演评价很低，认为那是电影中最弱的部分。
Quentin went on the pod, said that this movie might have been number one for him if not for Paul Dano who he his performance he felt was very weak, the weakest part of the film.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我不这么看。
I I don't I don't see it that way.
自那以后我们聊过一点，显然引发了人们的强烈反应，很多人觉得：你怎么敢说保罗·达诺不是我们伟大的人之一？
We've talked about it a little bit since then, and it's obviously created this overreaction of people being like, how dare you, Paul Dana, is one of our great humans.
是的
Yeah.
我并不是想这么说，但我认为让一个年轻但相对缺乏经验的人，与丹尼尔·戴-刘易斯这样的角色形成对比，这个设定很有意义。
I'm not here to say that, but I think the idea of placing someone like him who is a younger, not inexperienced, but relatively inexperienced opposite Daniel Day Lewis figure into this role.
而且，伊莱·桑德森作为那种利用他人弱点和脆弱性来操控和榨取钱财的、典型的野心家形象，这种设定非常有效地呈现了两种极端的男性气质。
Also, idea that Eli Sunday is this sniveling representation of, like, a certain kind of aspirant person who uses a different version of people's weaknesses and frailties to take advantage of them and take their money is extremely effective as like the two polarities of masculinity.
所以我认为他在这部电影中的表现堪称卓越。
And so I think he's like phenomenal in this movie.
我觉得他表现得非常好。
I think that he's great.
我认为他非常、非常出色。
I I think he's very, very good.
你知道，这其实又回到了一点：我对宗教本身没那么在意，但我理解它在电影中的历史意义，而且他的弱点正是重点所在——无论他身上发生什么，都无法与丹尼尔·普兰维尤和金钱、贪婪的较量相抗衡。
I you know, it it it kinda comes back to the fact that, like, I just don't care about religion as much as and I understand it's historical significance in this film and also that the weakness is the point because whatever is going on with him is just not gonna gonna compete with whatever is going on with Daniel Plainview and and with money and and and money and greed went out every time.
而且，那种披着羊皮的狼——一个福音派牧师不断喊着‘我需要再捐5000美元’之类的场景，本质上是徒劳的，从一开始就没有胜算，本意就是要让人觉得他软弱、可笑。
And and you really gotta play the game at the highest level that the wolf in sheep's clothing that is like an evangelical preacher being like, I need another $5,000 or whatever is, like, is is pointless and never had a chance and is meant to be seen as, like, weak and lame.
就像这个人就是一个失败者，嗯。
Like that that is that that this person is just a loser Mhmm.
根本没法与之抗衡。
Who like is not gonna compete.
我想这正是重点，但确实如此。
I like as I guess the point, but it does.
但它的表现确实不平衡。
It but like there is an unevenness to it.
确实如此。
There is.
我认为最终的寓意是，金钱和蛮力征服一切。
I think the idea is ultimately that money and brute force conquers all.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道，宗教作为一种安抚大众的手段还挺不错的。
You know, that religion is nice as a way to kind of quell the masses.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这让人保持顺从。
And that keeps people in line.
当然。
Sure.
它对商人很有用，他假装对埃利及其追随者卑躬屈膝，以此达成自己的目的，这个概念我觉得非常有说服力。
And it has utility to a businessman, and the way in which he is like kind of falsely obsequious to Eli and Eli's flock as a means to getting what he wants, I think is very compelling as a concept.
但最终，金钱 literally 残酷地碾压了信仰。
But in the end, money literally bludgeons faith.
是的。
Yes.
你知道，它 literally 使人无法相信任何超越我们所处系统的更高存在。
You know, that it literally makes it impossible to believe in something that is greater than the system and that we operate under.
嗯。
Mhmm.
而且要
And to
而且，你知道，信仰每次都会被算计。
be And also, you know, faith gets outsmarted every time.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我的意思是，他根本没有预见到任何排水系统或股市崩盘，这仍然是我对当前经济状况误解最深的地方。
I mean, he he didn't see any of the the the drainage or the stock market crash coming, which is still one of the great I was I was misinformed about our current economy.
是的。
Yeah.
他在那段场景中的服装，尤其是脖子上戴着的十字架，简直太棒了。
His his costuming in that sequence with the with the with the cross around his neck is so amazing.
关于这部电影的另一点是，要在电影中传达末日感很难。
One other thing about this movie is that it's hard to convey doom in a movie.
有时候你可以通过音乐来做到这一点。
And you can do it with music sometimes.
你可以通过让电影显得非常阴暗来营造末日感，你知道的，光线很少。
You can do it by making your film seem very dark, you know, that the lights there's very little light.
这部电影却是在大白天拍摄的。
This movie is in broad daylight.
几乎整部电影都是明亮的，是的。
Almost the whole movie is bright Yeah.
在加利福尼亚那片开阔的西部景观中。
In the in the, you know, western vistas of California.
但是
But
所以这部电影是在马尔法拍摄的吗？
So it was filmed in Marfa?
在德克萨斯州的马尔法。
In Marfa, Texas.
是的。
Yeah.
但要拍出一部让人感觉一切都糟糕透顶、毫无希望的电影，真的很难。
But it's hard it's hard to walk to, like, make a movie that makes you feel like everything is is bad and we're we're we're there's no hope.
嗯。
Mhmm.
然而，这其中却有一种幽默感。
And yet, there's something funny about that.
一种阴暗的幽默感。
Like, the macabre sense of humor
这部电影就具有这种幽默感。
that the film has.
我觉得那首勃拉姆斯小提琴协奏曲的片段用了两次，就是在祝福之后，你知道的。
I think that the the Brahms violin concerto cue, which is used twice when, you know, right after the blessing Mhmm.
当丹尼尔第一次遭到报应，面对埃利的时候，嗯。
When Daniel gets his first comeuppance on Eli Mhmm.
他抢走了埃利的风头。
And steals his thunder.
然后在结尾部分，一切都非常黑暗，但我却对那段充满喜悦、技艺精湛的音乐片段笑了出来。
And then and then at the end, which is just like it's everything is very dark, and I laugh at that, like, jubilant, like, virtuosic music cue.
是的。
Yeah.
另一部我可能会与这部电影归为同一系列的影片是《巴里·林登》，它同样有着宏大的世界布景、对男性脆弱性的探讨，主题非常相似，同时也一贯使用类似的音乐片段或服装选择，来传达这个世界上那种荒诞和虚假的乐观感，这种手法非常聪明。
The the other movie that I would probably draw in a similar lineage to this one is Barry Lyndon where you very similarly, like, huge world production design, the frailty of masculinity, very similar themes, but also consistently using, like, music cues like that or costuming choices to convey the kind of silliness and the kind of, like, false upbeat in this world that is super smart.
你提到了德克萨斯州的马尔法。
You know, you mentioned Marfa, Texas.
对。
Mhmm.
这部电影的拍摄地点，据我所知，离《老无所依》大约只有十英里。
This film was shot, I guess, roughly 10 miles away from No Country for Old Men.
对。
Mhmm.
而且它们都是同一年上映的。
And it came out in the same year.
确实如此。
It did.
这一年还出了许多其他优秀电影，包括我们列表上的《迈克尔·克莱顿》、《刺杀杰西·詹姆斯的懦夫罗伯特·福特》和《朱诺》。
This is also the same year as a number of other great movies, including Michael Clayton, which is on our list, The Assassination of Jesse James by the coward Robert Ford, Juno.
当然。
Sure.
一位女性。
One woman.
是的。
Yeah.
这些电影里确实有一位女性。
There was there was a woman in these movies.
你知道，这是美国电影的一个伟大年份，确实如此。
You know, it's a it's a huge year for American movies Yeah.
而且是传奇的一年。
And a legendary year.
《血色将至》获得了八项奥斯卡提名。
Bare Will Be Blood was nominated for eight Academy Awards.
它赢得了两项。
It won two.
我们提到丹尼尔·戴-刘易斯获奖了。
We mentioned Daniel Day Lewis won.
罗伯特·艾斯威特也因摄影获奖。
Robert Elswit also won for cinematography.
它在最佳影片、最佳导演和最佳改编剧本上输给了《老无所依》。
It lost picture director and adapted screenplay to No Country for Old Men.
是的。
Yeah.
有点难以反驳。
It's a little hard to quibble with.
你知道的？
You know?
我觉得《老无所依》太棒了。
I think No Country for Old Men is fantastic.
我对它真的挑不出任何毛病。
I really have nothing bad to say about it.
我非常喜欢它。
I love it.
有点像《铁血擂台》那种情况。
Just kind of a Thunderdome situation.
当我们缓缓步入保罗·托马斯·安德森的奥斯卡高光时刻时，出现了有趣的平行人生。
Interesting sliding doors as we kind of ease gracefully into Paul Thomas Anderson's Oscar moment.
有多不同呢
How different
别乌鸦嘴。
Don't jinx it.
这是真木头吗？
Is this real wood?
我不知道。
I don't know.
我也不知道。
I don't know either.
我不是在诅咒，但我的意思是，我们
I'm not jinxing it, but I mean, we're
当然。
Sure.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道的。
You know.
我知道。
I know.
别高兴得太早。
Don't count your chickens.
好吧。
Okay.
那么，那些鸡也不是我的。
Well, who's they're not my chickens.
好吧。
Okay.
它们是华纳兄弟的鸡。
They're Warner Brothers chickens.
你知道的。
You know?
我想是吧。
I guess so.
我根本接触不到那些鸡。
And I have no access to those chickens.
这部电影在剪辑和音效剪辑上也输给了《谍影重重3》。
The film also lost editing and sound editing to the Bourne ultimatum.
好的。
Okay.
呃，嗨，克里斯。
Just Well, hi, Chris.
当然。
Sure.
剪辑输给了《谍影重重3》？
Mean, editing to the Bourne Ultimatum?
《谍影重重3》是哪一部？
Which one is Bourne Ultimatum?
我想说的是第二部。
I wanna say that's the second one.
哦，就是结尾那段，他看着格伦·克洛斯和那个莫比乌斯环的场景。
Oh, when it cuts at the end and he's he's watching Glenn Close and the the Mobius.
我真的不记得了。
I honestly don't remember.
它的美术指导输给了《理发师陶德》。
It lost art direction to Sweeney Todd.
你看过《理发师陶德》吗？
You seen Sweeney Todd?
那个开膛手是
The demon barber of
弗利特街的？
Fleet Street?
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
没有。
No.
我没看那部。
I skipped that one.
好的。
Okay.
普莱恩维尤的《理发师陶德》有一些相似之处。
Sweeney Todd in Plainview had a bit in common.
那可能是男孩们。
It could have been boys.
当然。
Sure.
你是说胡须吗？
You mean facial hair?
是的。
Yeah.
他们可能一起喝过威士忌。
They might have enjoyed a whiskey together.
当时影评人曼诺洛·达加斯对这部电影写了一篇非常贴切的经典影评。
Reviews at the time, Manolo Dargas wrote a bang on classic review of this movie when it came out.
这是她在影评中写到的内容。
This is something that she wrote in her review.
《血色将至》对安德森先生而言，是一次极具个人色彩的创作。
There Will Be Blood is very much a personal endeavor for mister Anderson.
它感觉像是一种占有行为，但同时也直接参与了我们电影史上构建的叙事，特别是与《贪婪》和《唐人街》等影片，以及《公民凯恩》有着紧密联系——这些影片都解构了美国成功的神话，并用另一种乌托邦理想取而代之，那就是电影本身。
It feels like an act of possession, yet it is also directly engaged with our cinematic cinematically constructed history, specifically with films Greed and Chinatown, but also Citizen Kane that have dismantled the mythologies of American success and in doing so replaced one utopian ideal for another, namely that of the movies themselves.
这是一个有趣的见解：某种程度上，你再也无法真正拍出一部关于历史的电影了，因为关于历史的电影实在太多了。
That's an interesting insight that in a way you can't really ever make a movie about history again because there have been so many movies about history.
因此，任何一部关于历史的电影，本质上都是一部关于电影的电影。
So any movie about history is invariably a movie about movies.
嗯，确实如此。
Mhmm.
而这正是我再次整合了所有这些宏大愿景的体现。
And this is very much like a I have synthesized again all of these grand visions.
《唐人街》非常有意思。
Chinatown, very interesting.
我曾在2017年写过一篇关于这部电影的文章，也大量引用了《唐人街》的元素，以及扮演《唐人街》反派的约翰·休斯顿。
I wrote a piece about this movie in 2017 and drew a lot of allusions to Chinatown as well and the idea of John Huston who is the plays the villain in Chinatown Yes.
《淘金记》的导演是保罗·托马斯·安德森最喜爱的电影，而他本人在《唐人街》中饰演诺亚·克罗斯，一位掌控自然资源的水业大亨
Who directed Treasure of the Sierra Madre, is Paul Thomas Anderson's favorite movie, and him playing Noah Cross, a water magnate, a sort of powerful man in Chinatown, controlling natural resources
并重新开发加利福尼亚。
to And redeveloping California.
是的。
Yes.
正如他对杰克·吉迪斯所说，要掌控未来。
To control the future as he tells Jake Jake Giddiss.
《唐人街》和这部电影都是。
Chinatown and this movie are Yes.
它们在跳着一支关于……
In a little dance about They are.
我们城市的历史、权力，以及那些试图掌控一切的男人。
The history of our city and and power and guys who are trying to get in control of everything.
我
I
我的意思是，《公民凯恩》也是一个相当重要的参考。
mean, Citizen Kane is also a pretty important reference.
而且确实如此。
And It is.
是的。
Yeah.
而且，我想，我们用来理解历史和所谓伟人的标准
And and the I guess, like, rubric through which we try to understand our history and the the quote unquote great men
嗯。
Mhmm.
我们的历史中的伟人。
Of our history.
是的。
Yeah.
这部电影似乎没有
This movie doesn't seem to have
对媒体的兴趣就没那么大了，这一点还挺值得注意的。
as much interest in the media, which is kind of notable.
比如说，甚至很多...是的。
Like, even a lot of the Yeah.
那个时代的很多大亨都试图操控自己的形象，其中有些人还收购了媒体公司，就像查尔斯·福斯特·凯恩那样。
Tycoons of this time tried to manipulate their image, some of whom bought media companies, like like Charles Foster Kane.
要知道，很多这类人都坚持某种特定形式，或者说黄色新闻的兴起部分是由拥有报纸的大亨推动的。
You know, a lot of those guys insisted on a certain kind of or like the rise of yellow journalism is in part driven by tycoons who own newspapers.
这部电影对那方面并不感兴趣。
This movie is not really interested in that.
比如，普莱恩维尤的内心世界要丰富得多。
Like, Plainview is much more interior.
就像他亲口说的，想赚够钱就能远离所有人。
Like, he he literally says, wanna make enough money so I can get away from everyone.
没错。
Right.
我能理解这一点。
And I can relate to that.
这部电影在《纽约时报》评选的百大电影中排名第三。
This movie is number three on the New York Times top 100.
好的。
Okay.
在《纽约时报》读者票选中，它排名第四。
It's number four in the readers poll for the Times.
它在《滚石》杂志评选的21世纪百大电影中位列第一。
It's number one on Rolling Stone's top 100 movies of the twenty first century.
好吧。
Okay.
在BBC 2016年21世纪影评人票选中，它排名第三。
Number three on the BBC's twenty sixteen twenty first century critics poll.
你感觉到什么趋势了吗？
Are you sensing a trend?
人们都喜欢这部电影，老兄。
People like this, man.
这是过去二十五年来公认的前五名电影之一。
This is a consensus top five film of the last twenty five years.
是的。
Yes.
没错。
It is.
对此有什么疑虑吗？
Any misgivings about that?
你通常对共识有点抵触，现在有点不太一样了。
You're a little you're usually a little little resistant to consensus.
当然。
Sure.
而且这也不是我最喜欢的保罗·托马斯·安德森的电影。
And it's it's not my favorite Paul Thomas Anderson movie.
在我的个人排名中，我觉得它是第几来着？
In my personal rankings, I think it's what is it?
我记得你说过是第四？
I think you said fourth?
第四？
Fourth?
因为我把《魅影缝匠》《血色将至》和《大师》排在这部前面。
What do I because I got Phantom Thread one battle and the master over this.
那我们来聊聊我们选了哪部保罗·托马斯·安德森的电影吧。
So let's talk about which Paul Thomas Anderson we picked.
这最终是你做的决定。
This was ultimately your decision.
是的。
Yes.
我支持你，我站在你这边。
And I support you and I stand by you.
我认为这是所谓的正确决定。
And I think it's the quote unquote right decision.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我直到最后一刻都在逗你，让你选《大师》。
I was needling you up until the very end to do the master.
嗯。
Mhmm.
因为我觉得这才是保罗·托马斯·安德森最完整的表达。
Because I think that that is the fullest expression of PTA.
嗯。
Mhmm.
而这部电影大概是电影艺术最完整的体现。
And this is like the fullest expression of cinema, I guess.
我当时
And I was
我觉得这是对的。
I think that's right.
更关注PTA最完整的表达。
More interested in the fullest expression of PTA.
但你知道，有时候在我的个人排名中，你必须直白一点。
But but, you know, sometimes On my personal rankings Sometimes you gotta be obvious.
有时候甚至都不明显。
Sometimes you got it's not even obvious.
有时候你必须
Sometimes you gotta
我要说一下。
I'm gonna say this.
真相。
Truth.
这是我的真相。
This is my truth.
我的真实想法是，这部电影是我最喜欢的PTA作品，嗯。
My truth is that this is my favorite PTA movie Mhmm.
而《大师》是我第二喜欢的。
And The Master is my second favorite.
是的。
Yeah.
而且它们是一对重要的作品。
And that they are a critical pairing.
它们就像是他迈出了下一步，是的。
They are like him taking the next step Yeah.
从一个技艺高超、语速飞快、酷劲十足的二十多岁青年，成长为一个努力提升自我的成熟男人，是的。
From virtuosic, fast talking, cool guy in his twenties to grown man trying to elevate himself Yeah.
用他的艺术。
With his art.
而《大师》比这部电影更加神秘。
And the master is much more mysterious than this movie.
这部电影在主题上相当直接明了。
This movie is thematically fairly straightforward.
我不认为这会让它变得差劲。
I don't think that that makes it any worse.
我不认为《大师》因为神秘就更好。
I don't think it makes the master better to be mysterious.
我认为很多评论家会更青睐《大师》，因为他们会觉得其中更有持续可挖掘和探索的内涵。
I think a lot of critics will favor the master because they'll say that there's more to kind of consistently unpack and explore.
是的。
Mhmm.
我尊重这种观点。
And I I I respect that.
我理解这一点。
I understand that.
我非常喜欢阅读关于《大师》的分析。
I I love to read about the master.
我觉得这部电影 endlessly rewarding。
I think it is endlessly rewarding.
今年我刚在埃及剧院用70毫米胶片又看了一遍。
I just saw it again this year on 70 millimeter at the Egyptian.
一次令人惊叹的体验。
An amazing experience.
我会在死前再看很多遍这部电影。
I will watch the film many more times Mhmm.
在我去世之前。
Before I die.
我觉得这是一部美丽的爱情故事，可能是他最美丽的爱情故事。
I think it's a beautiful love story, perhaps his most beautiful love story.
我也觉得这是一部关于美国的电影，正如你所说。
I also think it's a movie about America, as you say.
是的。
Mhmm.
这无疑是一部关于男性气质与信仰的电影。
Certainly a movie about masculinity and faith.
还有男人和
And men and
当我们有所缺失时，我们会寻找什么。
You know, what we look for when we have an absence.
你知道，我认为这部电影也非常聪明地没有过多展现两位主角及其过往。
Know, You I think that movie also very smartly doesn't show us too much about its two main characters and their past.
它只是隐约暗示了很多东西。
It just kind of insinuates a lot.
这就像他掌握的一种技巧，你也可以将这种特质投射到他身上，因为他不再谈论自己。
It's like a trick that he picked up that you can also project onto him because he doesn't talk about himself anymore.
是的。
Mhmm.
你几乎能感受到他仿佛在所有电影中的这些强势男性角色之间游走。
And you can almost feel him, like, floating in and out of these strong male characters in all of his movies.
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