本世纪25部最佳电影：第6名 - 《穆赫兰道》

我是肖恩·芬尼西。我是阿曼达·多宾斯。这里是《25对25》，一档关于《穆赫兰道》的宏观视角特别对话节目。不，我们听到乐队声了。我们今天要聊的是。

I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is 25 for 25, a big picture special conversation show about Mulholland Drive. No, yet we hear a band. We are talking today.

完全正常的节奏。

Completely normal cadence.

关于大卫

About David

和电影里说的完全一样。嗯，确实有一种

It's exactly how they say it in the film. Well, there is a

怪异感。你知道吗？一种不安的感觉。

kind of weirdness. You know? A kind of a sense of unease.

你认为自己是像大卫·林奇电影里的角色吗？你觉得你

Do you identify as a, like, a David Lynch character? Do you feel like you

呈现了那种特质吗？我想家里的观众可能会觉得我那种特有的紧张与寡言的混合气质展现出来又消失了。而且，你知道的，我们有过那种生硬的表演风格

present that? I think the viewers at home might think that my very particular cocktail of intensity and laconicness show And remove. And, you know yeah. We had, like, the stiff acting style

不可穿透性。是的。

Impenetrability. Yeah.

当然。这部剧始终笼罩着一种模糊的末日感。对吧？

Sure. This vague sense of doom surrounding this show at all times. Right?

一切都看似正常，但怪事就在我们眼前发生。比如你穿着圆领衫，但关键是你是个穿圆领衫的爸爸，可同时...

That everything is normal, but also weird shit's happening right in front of us. Like, you're wearing a crew neck, but, you know, just that you're a dad in a crew neck, but also.

但表象之下是什么？知道吗？会是《双峰》里的雷·怀斯吗？希望不是。但愿我只是个普通老爸。

But what's underneath? You know? Is it Ray Wise in Twin Peaks? Hopefully not. Hopefully, I'm just the normal dad.

今天能和你交谈我非常兴奋。遗憾的是这是我们今年第二次讨论大卫·林奇，因为我们失去了他，他无疑是伟大的电影人之一。不做一部大卫·林奇的电影，我们这个项目就不完整。二十一世纪他只拍了两部电影，这部和《内陆帝国》。这部是他自编自导的。

I'm very excited to talk with you today. This is unfortunately the second time that we're talking about David Lynch this year because we lost him, and he is, of course, one of the great filmmakers. We were never gonna do this project without doing a David Lynch film. There are only two David Lynch films made in the twenty first century, This one and, of course, Inland Empire. He wrote and directed this one.

主演包括娜奥米·沃茨、劳拉·哈灵、贾斯汀·塞洛克斯、安·米勒、罗伯特·福斯特，还有多位好莱坞知名影星客串，算是一种致敬。摄影由他的老搭档彼得·德明担任，配乐安杰洛·巴达拉门蒂（他还在片中饰演一名黑帮成员），美术设计杰克·菲斯克。本片首映于2001年——抱歉更正——2001年戛纳电影节。《穆赫兰道》。没错。

It stars Naomi Watts, Laura Haring, Justin Theroux, Anne Miller, Robert Forster, along with a handful of well known Hollywood figures from over the years, a kind of homage. It's shot as many of his films are by Peter Deming, music by Angela Bodimenti, who also makes a appearance in the film as one of the gangsters, production designed by Jack Fiske. And this movie premiered at the two thousand and one international excuse me, the two thousand and one Cannes Film Festival. Mulholland Drive. Yeah.

你知道，这是部经常被提及的电影，在互联网的阴暗角落被反复剖析。有大量学术研究和调查...这个我们稍后再谈。嗯...你喜欢《穆赫兰道》什么？

You know, a film that is invoked often, explored at length in dark corners of the Internet. There's incredible amount of scholarship and investigation into Let's this set that aside for one minute. Mhmm. What do you like about Mulholland Drive?

我发现这是林奇作品中最容易让我入门的一部，因为它结合了我许多兴趣点，虽然不是护栏，但它为我打开了进入大卫·林奇世界的大门，让我能——不知道'理解'这个词是否准确——更像是与他同乘一车。当然，我全程都在想'这到底在演什么？'，但又不至于迷失，因为他运用了大量我熟悉的老好莱坞电影、黑色电影等元素作为参照系，当剧情开始天马行空时，我仍能感受到与导演同频的默契。

I find this the most accessible to me of the Lynch projects because it combines a lot of my interests and kind of like, not guardrails, but it gives me a way into the David Lynch world so that I can then I don't know what whether understand is the right word. But like, I'm along on the ride with him. And I'm and I am, of course, wondering, like, what the hell is going on? But I'm not because he's using enough references and architecture of, like, old Hollywood movies and noirs and and things that I know and recognize that when things get, you know, loosey goosey, I have the intended feeling like I'm I'm with him.

这完全说得通。虽然这不是我最喜欢的大卫·林奇电影，但它确实接近——

That makes complete sense. Yeah. I think this is not my favorite David Lynch movie, but it is What is near

榜首位置？《橡皮头》吗？

the top. Eraserhead?

不是。其实随着年龄增长——

No. I well, as I get older

明白。

Sure.

我觉得《双峰：与火同行》才是最令人不安的

Yeah. I think Twin Peaks Fire Walk With Me is the most upsetting

好吧。

Okay.

而且非常震撼，这部电影我小时候第一次看时完全没看懂。我觉得《蓝丝绒》和《双峰》连在一起看很难被超越，那可以说是他最标志性的作品了。《象人》很美，我个人相当喜欢这部电影。

And powerful and a movie that, like, I didn't get at all when I first saw it as a kid. I think the stretch of, you know, Blue Velvet and Twin Peaks together is kinda hard to argue. You know, that's like that's the most iconic thing that he ever did. The Elephant Man is beautiful. I think that's a movie that I like quite a bit.

我也很喜欢《妖夜慌踪》。嗯，他的所有电影我都喜欢，每部作品都以不同方式引人入胜。不过这部可能被认为是他所有知名元素的集大成之作。

I like Lost Highway quite a bit. Mhmm. I like all of his movies. I think they're all interesting in different ways. This one, though, is it's probably considered the culmination of all the things that he is best known for.

对吧？他有一种非常独特的混合风格——既有美式怀旧情调，又带着欧洲传统的超现实主义，还有你说的经典好莱坞类型片框架，外加那种诡异的边缘艺术。就是那种暗示人类生活、日常美国生活表面下都藏着不堪事物的理念。

Right? He has this very unique combination of I don't know. I guess you'd say, like, Americana Mhmm. Surrealism really out of, like, a European tradition, the classic Hollywood styling that you're talking about bound in genre, and then this really sinister outside art. You know, this this idea that there's something, like, very unseemly under the surface of everything in human life and daily life in American life.

而这部电影完美捕捉了所有这些元素，将这些感受渗透得淋漓尽致。不过和很多林奇作品一样，它的诞生过程很离奇。这可能是唯一至少部分镜头拍摄于二十世纪的电影——它最初是部电视剧试播集，本打算作为《双峰》的某种续篇（虽然不完全是）。《双峰》联合主创马克·弗罗斯特和林奇在剧终后多年里一直讨论要拍个叫《穆赫兰道》的剧集。

And this movie is really good at capturing all of those things. It really is this incredible suffusing of all those feelings. But it's it's like a lot of Lynch things, it's it's birth is quite strange. This is one of the I wonder if this is the only film that is at least partially shot in the twentieth century. It started out as a TV pilot series that was supposed to be sort of like it wasn't quite a follow-up to Twin Peaks, but Mark Frost, the cocreator of Twin Peaks, and Lynch had talked for years after Twin Peaks about doing a show called Mulholland Drive.

他们从没具体讨论过剧情，就是单纯喜欢'穆赫兰道'这个概念。大卫·林奇本人就住在穆赫兰道上。嗯。

They never talked about what it was gonna be about. They just liked the idea Yeah. Of Mulholland Drive. David Lynch lived on Mulholland Drive. Mhmm.

你开过穆赫兰道。

You have driven on Mulholland Drive.

开过。

I have.

对这些经历有什么感想吗？

Any any any reflections on those experiences?

我是说，这部电影很好地捕捉到了这一点。你无法在驾驶穆赫兰道时不联想到电影《穆赫兰道》的开场。但是

It I mean, it's well captured in this movie. You can't also you can't drive Mulholland Drive without thinking of the opening of the film Mulholland Drive. But

一场非常惨烈的车祸。

A very gnarly car crash.

是的。但还有那些时刻，就在车祸前，你只是缓缓行驶，镜头跟随着豪华轿车，感觉每个转角都可能发生可怕的事情。穆赫兰道确实有很多曲折，但也有一点好莱坞的味道，你知道，就像我在那里，挥舞着双手，整个洛杉矶在你脚下铺展开来，这种感觉至今依然存在。

Yes. And but but also that, like, the moments before where you're just kinda winding and the camera's following the limo, and it just seems like there is a very bad thing around every single corner. And there are many twists and turns on Mulholland Drive, But also a little bit of like, Hollywood, you know, like, I'm here, jazz hands, and there is all of Los Angeles spread out beneath you, and that's still true.

是啊。我总想象像杰克·尼科尔森这样的人住在穆赫兰道的最顶端

Yeah. Yeah. I always think of the idea of someone like Jack Nicholson living right at the very top

嗯。是的。

Yeah. Yeah.

几十年来一直住在那里，在某种程度上俯瞰着整个城市。你知道吗？就像，如果你想见杰克，你得一路爬到山顶他的住处。但这座城市显然有其阴暗面，这是数百万怀揣梦想的人前来追寻的地方。这是关于追逐梦想的艰辛以及当梦想受挫时心灵可能陷入的迷离状态的最佳电影之一。

Of of Mulholland Drive and having a home there for decades and and lording over the city in some ways. You know? Being like, if you wanna see Jack, you have to come up to his place all the way at the top of the hill. But there is something there is an underbelly, obviously, to this city, and there this is a place where, you know, millions of people have come hoping to achieve their dreams. This is one of the best movies ever made about the difficulties of trying to achieve those dreams and the kind of fugue state that your mind can go into when you're banging your head against those dreams.

作为洛杉矶人，你我其实并没有那样的经历。我们是冲着工作来的，非常具体的工作。我们搬到这里，接受了那些工作，并且完成了它们。对吧。而且这些工作至今仍在继续。

You and I didn't really have that experience as Angelino's. Like, we came for jobs, like very specific jobs. And we moved here, and we took those jobs, and we did them. Right. And they're they're still going.

那些工作目前仍在进行中。

Those jobs are still happening. For now.

目前而言。至少在这次录音时是这样。

For now. As of this recording.

一切都很顺利。所以我并没有那种...非个人化的情感联系，我觉得很多电影人、演员、有抱负的艺术家来到这里时都带着这种情感——他们相信自己会成功。你知道，我没有一边在咖啡店打工一边写剧本。明白我的意思吗？但就在前几天，一位给我理发的优秀女士告诉我，她同时还是位音效设计师。

Everything is okay. And I I so I don't quite have the same, like, impersonal emotional connection that I think so many filmmakers, actors, aspiring artisans have when they come here where they they're gonna make it. They're gonna put their you know, we didn't I didn't work in a coffee shop while writing my screenplay. You know what I mean? Like but that is just just the other day, a wonderful woman who cut my hair was telling me all about how she's a sound designer and also cuts hair.

这在这里是很常见的生存方式。而这部电影试图某种程度上汇集这种经历

That's just a very common, you know, navigation of this experience. And this movie attempts to kinda collate that

没错。

Right.

集中到一两位女性的思想中。

Into one maybe maybe one, maybe two women's minds.

对。

Right.

我们可以讨论一下我们认为真正发生的事情。

And and we can talk about what what we think is really happening

同时引入一些其他较小的经历。就像所有出现的配角或人物，都在以某种方式试图从这行业和生活中得到他们想要的。嗯。但几乎每个人都受挫了。

there. And brings in some other smaller experiences as well. Like all of the the side characters or people who show up are trying in one way or another to get what they want Mhmm. Out of this industry and also life. And pretty much everyone is thwarted.

是的。这部电影最后四十五分钟里没有一个快乐的时刻。故事——如果你还没看过的话——我想最好的解释方式是：电影开场时，一位女士坐在豪华轿车后座。发生了车祸。她在车祸中受伤并患上失忆症，沿着穆赫兰道走下山。

Yeah. There's no there's not a single happy moment in the final forty five minutes of this film. The story, if you haven't seen it in the I guess the best way to explain it is there the film opens with this a woman in the back of a limousine. There is a car crash. She is injured in the car crash and is left with amnesia, and she wanders down the hill in Mulholland Drive.

她误入一间公寓。被一位刚搬到洛杉矶的年轻女子发现，后者正住在由姑姑安排的公寓里，她是个有抱负的女演员。她们建立起一种奇特的友谊，然后发展为更深的关系。过程中，金发女子贝蒂试图在好莱坞成为演员。黑发女子则与贝蒂一起努力解开她身份之谜和遭遇的事情。

And she stumbles into an apartment. And she's discovered by a young woman who has just moved to Los Angeles and is staying in an apartment that was arranged for her by her aunt, and she is an aspiring actress. And they build a curious friendship and then something more. And in the process, Betty, the blonde haired woman, attempts to become an actress in Hollywood. The dark haired woman works with Betty to try to solve the mystery of who she is and what's happened to her.

对。

Right.

她无法弄清自己的身份。然后在某个时刻，这个南希·德鲁式的神秘故事在这两位年轻女性身上发生了转折，出现了心理层面的翻转，我们看到了不同身份存在于不同躯体中。

And that she can't figure out her identity. And then at a certain point after this Nancy Drew style mystery with with these two young women kind of turns on its head, has a kind of psychological flip, and we feel different identities in different bodies.

是的，用了不同的名字。

Yes. With different names.

是的。我在大学时看过这部电影。当时我是林奇的粉丝，但还不是铁杆影迷。他的作品我并没有全部看过，对他也不完全了解。

Yes. So I saw this movie when was in college. And I was a Lynch fan, but not a completist at that time. I had not seen everything. I didn't know everything about.

我那时还没读过关于他的书。但我很喜欢

I hadn't read books about him. And I like a lot

不像现在，我已经读了很多关于他的书。我当时纯粹是个门外汉。你懂吗？抱歉。

of people Unlike now, I've read many books about him. I I was pure anchorman. You know? Sorry.

那些书不是皮面精装的。但他有本回忆录，还有本访谈集。当你把这些资料都看完后

They were they're not leather bound. You know? But, like, he has a memoir. He has an interview book. Like, once you've kinda gone through all those Documented.

确实非常详尽。有关于他的纪录片，还有这部电影的Criterion版本里附带的精彩问答环节，就是他在讲述拍摄经历。

Things For sure. Very documented. There's a documentary about him. There's a wonderful q and a about this movie in the Criterion edition of this movie. That's just him talking about the experience of making the film.

但当时既没有文字说明也没有背景信息，18岁的我看得一头雾水。我完全搞不懂发生了什么。我想很多人都有同感。不过有些人立刻认为这是杰作，比如罗杰·埃伯特就评价说，你必须敬畏这部电影超现实的伟大。

But with no text and no context and being 18, this has cooked my noodle. I was like, what the fuck is going? I think that's a feeling that a lot of people were left with. Now some people immediately thought masterpiece. This is a film Roger Eber, for example, thought you must kind of, like, stand in awe of this film's surreal greatness.

这位评论家多年来对大卫·林奇持高度怀疑态度，对他批评甚多。

And that's a critic who for years was very skeptical of David Lynch, very critical of him.

甚至他的《穆赫兰道》影评也写着：'我不在乎《妖夜慌踪》，我压根没看懂这些，但最终他在《穆赫兰道》里把一切都圆回来了。'

And even his Mulholland Drive review is like, I I don't care about Lost Highway. I like, I haven't gotten any of this, but finally, he pulls it all together in Mulholland Drive.

是啊。我在想这是否反映了你们某些人的感受，比如你对其他电影有负面情绪吗？它们就是没能引起你的共鸣吗？

Yeah. I was wondering if that echoes, you know, some of you like, do you have like an a negative feeling towards the other movies? Did they did they just not connect for you?

不。我想我们家里没人看《双峰》。就算我父母看过，他们也没告诉过我。嗯。但他们绝对跟我提过《法律与秩序》。

No. I think that so we weren't a Twin Peaks household. Or if my parents were, they weren't telling me about it. Mhmm. But they definitely told me about law and order.

所以K，我认为

So K. I think that

确实存在一个黑暗角落，这一点毋庸置疑。

There is a dark quarter that It sure is. As well.

我猜这大概是我第一次接触林奇的作品，因为当时我还在上高中。而他获得了最佳导演提名，那会儿奥斯卡话题正热。所以如果你像我那时一样深入挖掘的话。嗯。

I I think this was probably my first Lynch, I would guess just because was I was in high school. And he was nominated for best director. It was a bit in the Oscar conversation. So if you were digging deeper, which I probably was at that point. Mhmm.

再一次，那种感觉就像是，你知道的，华丽而迷人。我记得《洛城机密》大概五年前曾获奥斯卡提名。嗯。那是一部，怎么说呢，黑色电影的最佳影片之类的。所以我当时是带着对《洛城机密》的期待走进去的。

And again, it was like, you know, glitzy and and glamorous. I think LA Confidential was an Oscar nominee, like, five years before. Mhmm. And that was a, you know, a, like, a noir best picture, whatever. So I think I walked in expecting LA Confidential.

没错。而且在我们人生的那个阶段，这类电影是个很好的引子，它是对传统风格的致敬。

Yes. And that was a good table setter for us at that stage of our life for those kinds of films, it being a throwback to a very traditional style.

确实。要知道，我当时也才17岁左右？

For sure. So, you know, I was also, what, 17?

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以我觉得自己当时的反应大概是：哇。严肃的大人们说这很重要。是的。虽然我并不能完全理解看的内容。但是，你知道，其中确实有些超然的瞬间。

So I think I was just kind of like, wow. Serious people say that this is important. Yes. And I don't totally know what I'm watching. And, but, you know, there are transcendent moments within it.

因此我可能只是尽力摆出一副，你知道的，青少年那种摸着下巴故作深沉的样子，然后在后来的人生中继续寻找林奇的其他作品。但真正吸引我的是题材——蓝丝绒确实是经典。我至今还没看完《双峰》全剧，因为那实在太多了

And so I think I probably just did like my best, like stroking my chin, like, you know, teenager face and then and then sought out other Lynch later in life. But it's really subject matter is the only reason I mean, velvet is a classic. I still haven't seen all of Twin Pink's peaks just because that's a lot

确实是个大工程。

It's a lot of work.

电视。对。没错。

TV. Yeah. Yeah.

它值得。它是它是少数我会说是...

It's worth it. It's it's it's one of the few things that I would say is

你知道这很难，我们讨论过这个。我追不上现在所有的电视节目。

it's hard you know, we talk about this. I can't keep up with all the TV shows that currently exist.

不过很有趣的是，这部剧——我在这里提它是有原因的——是现代电视中一个典型现象的有趣例子：第一季，特别是前六集，如此迷人、引人入胜，感觉与之前任何作品都截然不同。现在看它们最终像是林奇作品链中的一环，但当时它成为现象级作品是有原因的。这个谜题，可以说是'死亡女孩现象'的起源点，至今仍在我们的文化中流淌。而这部剧在第二季确实失去了动力，大部分第二季内容都相当平庸。

It's it's so funny though because that show and I'm talking about this for a reason in this discussion, is an interesting example of a thing that happens to a lot of modern television, which is that the first season, especially the first six episodes, are so beguiling and so involving and feel so different from anything that had come before. Now they feel ultimately like a link in a chain of all the the Lynch works, but it it was a phenomenon for a reason. Right? The the idea of the this mystery, this being kind of like the origin point of the dead girl phenomenon, which still courses through our culture today. And the show really loses steam in the second season, and a lot of the second season is not very strong at all.

我确实认为它有一个精彩的结局，某种迷人的收尾。但你知道，林奇把这个搁置了很久。然后他在21世纪创作了《回归》，算是第三季，虽然不符合我们项目的评选标准，但绝对是我最喜欢的作品之一。《回归》的部分内容，我认为是他做过最好的作品，特别是第八集，我之前讨论过。

And I do think it has a wonderful conclusion and kind of a fascinating conclusion. But, you know, Lynch puts that aside for a long period of time. And then the other thing that he makes in the twenty first century is the return, which is the kind of the third season of the show, which is not eligible for our project, but is easily one of my favorite things that's come out. And parts of the return, I think, are among the best things he's ever done, especially episode eight, which I've talked about before. Yeah.

对我来说，它确实比这份榜单上80%的作品都要好。我觉得它是一部惊人的杰作。你能看出他就是放不下某些意象和想法。有些人被指责重复自己，而有些人则让这些成为他们作品中的循环主题。这是另一个循环主题系列，你会看到许多对他而言既有趣又熟悉的元素。

To me is, like, legitimately better than, like, 80% of the things on this list. Like, I just think it's, like, such an amazing piece of work. And you can see that he just, like, kinda can't let go of certain images and ideas. And some people are accused of repeating themselves, and some people, they become recurring motifs in their work. This is, another series of recurring motifs where you're seeing a lot of things that are very interesting and familiar to him.

懂吗？一个被强大男性世界贬低、亵渎然后抛弃的女性。这在他的作品中反复出现。有人有时认为这是厌女，也有人认为这是充满同理心和开明态度的。

You know? A a woman who's been degraded and desecrated by, like, a powerful male world and discarded. Like, that is something that you see over and over in his work. Some people read that as misogynistic at times. Some people read that as empathetic and open minded.

你知道，这是一部关于酷儿浪漫的电影。有人认为这是在剥削，也有人称这是我们在电影中见过对这种爱情最细腻的描绘之一。'修补你们的心灵否则就死去吧'——他在《双峰》中这句名言被反复引用，特别是在他今年早些时候去世后。我想说的是，他本身就是个谜团。

You know, there this is a film about queer romance. Some people read that as exploitative. Other people said this is one of the most sensitive portrayals of this kind of love that we've seen in a movie. Fix your hearts or die, thing he famously said in Twin Peaks and was quoted often after he passed away earlier this year. He's what I'm saying is he's kind of a conundrum.

你懂我意思吗？他堪称史上最伟大的电影制作人之一，却可能因电视剧最为人熟知。明白吗？

You know what I mean? He's like one of the greatest movie makers of all time, and he's probably best known for making TV. You know?

我正想问，这让你作何感想？呃，我觉得电视机此刻就在房间里与我们同在。

I was gonna say, how does that make you feel? Well, I I think it's the TV here in the room with us.

我是说...我其实不太喜欢电视剧，但我爱《双峰》。确实。这说明电视显然是一种能承载伟大艺术的媒介。只是像他这样的人能获得如此规模的创作机会实属罕见。

I I mean, I I don't love TV, but I love Twin Peaks. And Yeah. I think it shows that it's obviously like a a medium that can support great art. It's just unusual for someone like that to be given the chance to do it at such scope.

是啊。你怎么看《穆赫兰道》作为他最受公认的艺术作品？我们稍后会讨论他的遗产，但这部电影几乎在所有二十一世纪电影的影评人票选和观众票选中都名列前茅，几乎是全票通过。

Yeah. What do you make of Mulholland Drive as his most consensus of, like, work of of art? We'll talk about the legacy, but this has been near the top of every single critic's poll and and, like, reader poll of films of the twenty first century. It's like pretty much unanimous.

没错。我对此有很多想法，很高兴你问这个——我始终好奇的是，如果没看过《蓝丝绒》或《双峰》，单就影片基调而言，这部电影还能自圆其说吗？

Yeah. So I I have a lot of thoughts about it, but I'm glad you asked because the thing that I always wonder with this is, does this movie make sense if you haven't seen Blue Velvet or Twin Peaks or, like, just tonally?

确实。

Right.

如果你把它展示给年轻人看，然后说，咱们从《穆赫兰道》开始吧。对我来说，当我看到这部作品时，我的反应是：好吧，我看过《双峰》，也看过《蓝丝绒》，至少我知道他在朝着某个方向努力。

If you show it to a young person and you're like, let's start with Mulholland Drive. To me when I saw this, I was like, okay. I've seen Twin Peaks. I've seen Blue Velvet. Like, I at least know there's working towards.

对，对，对。林奇的电影基调让我...让我看看能不能想起我记下的笔记。我写的是：这种奇妙的结合体既让人困惑‘到底发生了什么’，又让人不适‘我不喜欢这种感受’。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, the the tone of Lynch's movies let me see what I if I can figure out what I wrote down. I wrote the it's this wonderful combination of what the fuck is happening, and I don't like how this is making me feel.

影片中情节和事件带来的那种强烈的不安、焦虑与混乱感。比如当丹尼斯·霍珀在《蓝丝绒》里出场时，你会觉得：这电影到底发生了什么？这显然很刺激，完全源自林奇那种潜意识写作风格——他让想法自然涌现并记录下来，不纠结逻辑，用梦境般的方式思考。对吧？

This incredible sense of dread and unease and confusion around the the plotting and the incidents in the in the movie. Like, when Dennis Hopper shows up in Blue Velvet, it's just like, what the hell just happened to this movie? And that's obviously thrilling, and it comes completely out of Lynch's style of writing, which is all from the subconscious. He just kinda lets the ideas come and writes them through, doesn't worry about logic, thinks of things through the dreamscape. Right?

但《穆赫兰道》之所以获得你描述的那种盛誉，我想是因为当时所有人都觉得：就是它了。这就是他一直以来追求的境界。这就是巅峰。他是我们最伟大的电影艺术家之一。

But Mulholland Drive is so celebrated in the way that you're describing, I think, because it everyone was like, this is it. This is what he's been working towards. Right. This is the culmination. He's one of our great film artists.

现在时机成熟了。他的人生已经到了我们可以毫无顾虑赞美他的阶段。虽然很意外地获得了最佳导演提名，但这部电影其他奖项颗粒无收。这就是那种情况：所有人都乐于承认他的伟大，尽管你知道《妖夜荒踪》评价两极，《双峰：与火同行》曾被唾弃。

It's time now. He has reached the point in his life where we can all feel comfortable celebrating him. You know, very randomly getting the best director nomination, but no other nominations for this film. It's one of those things where everyone just felt comfortable declaring his greatness even though, you know, Lost Highway was got mixed reviews. Fire Walk With Me was loathed.

没错。

Right.

其实他当时并非处于创作巅峰期，反而算是低谷阶段。这原本是个失败的电视剧试播集。

Like, it's not as though he had been on a hot streak as a filmmaker. He'd been kind of in a down period. This was a failed TV pilot.

确实如此。我认为它可能是最怪诞的，但同时也是最具辨识度的。比如那个蓝盒子，我不知道它代表什么——我还没读到过令人信服的解释。但除此之外，虽然这不是《日落大道》，但你能看到故事的主线，能感受到某种熟悉的传统和氛围，他正在玩弄观众对电影的固有认知，这让所有人都能产生更多共鸣。

That's true. I think I do also think it's just it maybe it's the the most bizarre, but it is also the most recognizable of so many of them. Like you can I don't know what the blue box is? Like I don't I like I haven't read a good explanation. But like, but otherwise, you know, it's not Sunset Boulevard, but it is like we you can you can see the spine and you can see there is a familiar, like tradition and feeling that he is like playing with that people accept from movies that I think grounds everyone a little bit more.

没错。而且好莱坞就喜欢拍关于好莱坞的电影，尤其是那些批判好莱坞、电影工业和艺术商业化的作品。嗯。

Yeah. Like, you know, and also, like, Hollywood likes movies about Hollywood, especially movies that castigate Hollywood and the industry and the commercialization of art Mhmm.

我想是的。女性陷入危机和侦探故事确实是电影最可靠的两大框架。有了这些元素，你就能吸引观众，让他们被故事牢牢抓住。

I suppose. No. And I think women in peril and detective stories are two of the most reliable frameworks for a movie. So you've got that. So when you already have that, you you're able to kind of rope audiences in and get them compelled by the story.

你可以在小巷的垃圾箱后安排神秘人，可以设置蓝盒子，可以在电影尾声安排缩小的老夫妇，可以有寂静剧场。这些潜意识里的奇思妙想对他而言充满隐喻性，又足够开放，让我们能用各种解读填满那个蓝盒子。

You can have the man behind the dumpster in the alley. You can have the blue box. You can have the shrunk down older couple at the in the final stages of the film. You can have Silencio. You can have these flights of subconscious fancy that are very metaphorical to him and just open ended enough that we can fill that box with all of our ideas.

没错。不过我得说，我并不太喜欢他的电影，因为它们太容易引发各种阴谋论和多义解读——这其实不符合我对作品的期待。

Right. Now I I gotta say, I don't I don't love his movies because they're so you know, they fit so many kind of conspiracy theories and multiple readings. Like, that actually isn't my relationship to his work.

我也是。而我特别喜欢这部电影的原因在于，尽管你可以花整天时间争论'蓝盒子代表XYZ'，或者'那对跳吉特巴舞的老夫妇其实是舞蹈比赛的评委'这类解读...

Like, me either. And and I what I like about this movie in particular is that even though you could spend all day being like, no. No. No. So the blue box is x y z and the jitterbug couple, like, were like the the old couple were the judges of the jitterbug context or

哦，就像那是贝蒂古老的灵魂对吧？就像她如果没来好莱坞可能会拥有的生活。这类解读简直无穷无尽。

Oh, it's like that's Betty's ancient souls and what she Right. Like, she could have had if she didn't come to Hollywood. Like, you could read a million things

关于网络上流传的各种理论，其实没一个能真正说得通。这部电影抵制了那种Reddit解谜盒式的冲动——非要给每件事都找个确切位置。重看时很有趣，我反复看了几遍，因为它实在太丰富了。

into all things that are kinda floating around the Internet. Like, none of them really make sense. Like, this movie resists that, like, Reddit puzzle box urge to put everything in its particular place. Like and it it was funny rewatching it. I rewatched this movie a couple times just because it is so dense.

嗯。但第二次看时我感觉那些解谜本能开始蠢动，心想：既然重温过了，现在该戴上我的锡箔帽了——毕竟我们这二十五年来看影视剧都被训练成这样。但其实，重点根本不在这里。

Mhmm. But I felt some of those muscles kicking in on the second watch of like, okay. So now that I've refreshed it, it's time for me to put my, like, tinfoil hat on because we have been trained to do that. So, you know, in the last twenty five years of movie and TV watching. And it's like, no, that's like, that's not the point.

那些元素确实存在，但拼凑不出任何逻辑严密的解谜结论。这只是关于他脑海中的感受与意象。我认为最棒的地方在于，它彻底挫败了所有试图解释它的企图。本节目由State Farm赞助播出。

It's there. It does not add up to any sort of logical, like, puzzle box conclusion. It is just it's about feelings and images that are in his head. And I it's I think it's it's awesome that it completely, completely frustrates any attempts to explain it. This episode is brought to you by State Farm.

没有什么比拥有支持你和你的热情的朋友更棒的了。

There's nothing better than having friends who support you and your passions.

想想节目里有多少次你不得不坐在这儿，听我大谈对实体媒介的热爱和最近疯狂购买的蓝光碟。

Think of all of the times on this show when you've had to sit here and listen to me talk about my love for physical media and all of my recent Blu ray splurges.

没错。就像这些朋友和我一样，State Farm会一路为你提供帮助。众多保险方案可选，很高兴知道有人帮你找到最适合的。登录statefarm.com或使用获奖应用，获取当地代理人的帮助。State Farm就像个好邻居，随时在你身边。

Yes. Like those friends and like me, State Farm is there to help you along the way. With so many coverage options, it's nice knowing you have support in finding what fits for you. Go online at statefarm.com or use the award winning app to get help from one of their local agents. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

我完全同意。我喜欢的一点或许是，这部电影最符合他关于梦境的构想。对，因为表面上看这是关于一个正在做梦的人的电影。

I totally agree with you. One thing I like about it is maybe this is the film that best slots into that idea of dreams for him. Yeah. Because it's a movie about ostensibly a person who is dreaming. Right.

比如，如果你想这样解读这部电影——黛安将贝蒂想象成自己生活的美好版本，一个更快乐、更纯真的生活版本。我不是说这是唯一的解读方式，但如果你这样看，它就像是一种双重叠加的结构。是的。当你做这样的梦时，嗯...众所周知，我其实不太常做梦。

Like, if you wanna read the movie that way, that Diane imagines Betty as a better version of her life, a happier, more innocent version of her life. I'm not saying that that's definitively the reading, but if you read it that way, then it's this kind of like double stacked thing. Yeah. Where when and then when you're having a dream like that Mhmm. Invariably, I'm I'm famously not much of a dreamer.

我不太记得自己的梦。我不常做梦。即使做了，我也无法真正触及它们。

I don't have I don't really remember my dreams. I don't dream often. Or if I do, I don't have, like, access to them.

昨晚我做了些超级诡异的梦。我觉得看完之后，它们并不像是...

I had some truly fucked up dreams last night. I think after watching and they weren't like

好吧，说来听听。

Well well, tell us about that.

所以我记得的梦通常不是什么超现实主义杰作，懂吗？它们更像是把我内心的恐惧直接摊开在你面前...就摆在桌上。只有我和你。昨晚肯定做了这样一个梦，我早早醒来就觉得，唉，现在感觉糟透了。

So my dreams are never the ones I remember aren't usually, you know, surrealist majesty. You know? It's just kind of, like, very little interpretations of my emotional fears, like, laid out right into you Put it on the table. It's just me and you and you. Definitely had one of those last night, and I, like, woke up early and was just like, now now I feel bad.

你觉得这是因为你经常做这种梦，还是因为连续看了两遍《穆赫兰道》？

Do you do you think that happened because you just have dreams like that frequently or because you watched Mulholland Drive twice?

可能两者都有。我不总是做这种梦，但它们确实会在情绪波动时出现。我觉得自己可能因为连续48小时沉浸在《穆赫兰道》的氛围里有点心神不宁。

Probably a little bit of both. I don't always have dreams like that, but they they do come out kind of in moments of emotional agitation. And I think I was probably like a bit stirred up by being in the Mulholland Drive headspace for forty eight hours straight.

是的。这部电影在某种程度上漂浮了一段时间。确实，它有点难以把握，当然，还有那些传奇的餐厅场景会打断并扰乱你。但我会说，在前一个小时里，它保持着一种温和的节奏，嗯。

Yeah. And it the movie is it's kind of floating for a while. Yeah. It's a little bit hard to hold on to, and there are moments, of course, the legendary diner scene that disrupt and upset you. But it does have this kind of gentle cadence, I would say, for the first hour Mhmm.

在事情真正开始转折之前。你可以被电影温和地引导进入好奇状态，然后它才开始真正摧毁你的感受。是的，他玩了一个非常强大的把戏。有一点我不太清楚的是，他何时在重拍，何时只是在拍摄试播内容的时间线。比如罗伯特·福斯特，他在片中饰演

Before things really start to turn. And you can be kind of, like, subdued into curiosity about the movie before it starts to really kind of annihilate your feelings. And Yeah. That's a very powerful trick he's pulled And, you know, it's like he's one thing that is a little unclear to me is sort of like the timeline of when he is reshooting versus when he is just shooting the pilot stuff. Like, Robert Forster, who's in this film as

一个

a

警察侦探，众所周知，他不知道自己参演了这部电影。他原本是试播集的一部分，扮演其中一名警察。两年后，一部在戛纳首映的电影里有他，朋友告诉他时，他完全他妈不知道。

police detective, famously, did not know he was in this movie. He he was a part of the pilot. He's playing one of the cops in the pilot. And then two years later, a movie premiered at Cannes that he was in, and a friend told him he was in it. And he was like, had no fucking idea.

他以为那个节目根本没拍成。

Like, I thought that that show just didn't go.

是啊。

Yeah.

这太有意思了。要知道，他不得不像弗兰肯斯坦那样拼凑出这部电影，但不知怎的它还是连贯的，尽管是由一系列片段组成，还有所有这些你的思绪会在梦境中探索的侧门——比如，好吧，让我们花五分钟跟一个杀手待会儿。好吧，再花五分钟和餐厅里这家伙聊聊。

And that's fascinating. You know, that's fascinating that he kind of had to Frankenstein this movie into shape, and yet somehow it sort of hangs together even though it is a series of vignettes and there are all of these side doors that your mind would go down while you're having a dream where it's like, alright. Let's spend five minutes with a hitman. Alright. Let's find spend five minutes talking to this guy in this diner.

好吧。我们到这边来参加这个试镜，认识所有新角色，然后他们会向你介绍另一个角色。接着我们看着这部电影的拍摄过程，因为有一群暴徒闯入了这个好莱坞制作现场。这些就像是悲伤洛杉矶生活中那些柔和焦点的短暂插曲。

Alright. Let's go over here and go to this audition and look at all meet all these new characters, and then they're they're gonna introduce you to another character. And then let's watch this film being made because there's a mob Sure. Intrusion into this Hollywood production. And it's just like these very soft focus brief interludes in the life of sad Los Angeles.

是啊，悲伤又混乱的洛杉矶。我确实能感受到其中的悲伤，确实如此。

Yeah. Sad and, like, messed up Los Angeles. Yeah. I guess I do respond to the sadness in it. And I did.

昨晚我又重看了一遍。然后回去看了《穆赫兰道》的寂静剧场片段，那段简直悲伤得难以置信。之后我做了悲伤的梦。但我注意到你在提纲里提到，这是对洛杉矶最绝望的描绘之一，我觉得确实如此。每当我想到这部电影，直觉告诉我这是把洛杉矶描绘成邪恶、破碎、糟糕而非单纯悲伤的地方，它几乎吸干了每个人的生命力，这本身就是一种悲哀。

I rewatched it again last night. Then I went back and watched Noi Banda the silencio scene, which is like incredibly sad. And then I had sad dreams. But I did notice like, your contribution to the outline, you're like, this is one of, like, the most, like, despairing portraits of LA, which which I think is true. I do instinct when I think about this movie, I think that this is one of the, like, portraits of LA, like, is evil and cracked and bad as opposed to sad, and that it just kinda sucks the life out of everyone, which is sad in its own way.

但我觉得我对其中恶意的共鸣比对悲伤更强烈。

But I think I respond to just the malevolence more than the sadness.

有意思。我觉得你可以通过两种视角来看待这部电影，尤其是最后三十分钟关于黛安的部分。因为黛安被揭露是个被彻底摧毁的人，一个事事不顺的人。

It's interesting. I mean, I think you can look at this, especially the final thirty minutes or so with Diane Mhmm. Through both of those lenses. Yeah. Because Diane, it's revealed, is just a destroyed person, a person for whom things have not worked out at all.

是啊。她爱着一个不再爱她的女人，事业也没有如她期望的那样成功。要知道，她是由娜奥米·沃茨扮演的，美得惊人。

Yeah. And she's in love with a woman who doesn't love her anymore. She has not been successful in her career in the way that she had hoped. You know, she is a person who I mean, she's played by Naomi Watts. She's stunningly beautiful.

没错。然而她却觉得自己一无所有。

Yeah. And yet she hasn't she feels she has nothing.

没错。

Right.

所以你能感受到她的痛苦，然后这导致她做出真正邪恶的事情。我是说，她雇人去杀害她深爱的这个人。她确实走到了如此可怕的地步。这很有趣。比如，我在洛杉矶过得非常开心，而且已经在这里住了很久。

And so you can you can feel her anguish, and then it leads to her doing truly evil things. I mean, she she hires someone to kill this person that she's in love with. She really goes to these awful lengths. It's it's interesting. Like, I'm very happy in Los Angeles, and I've been here for a long time.

我经常说我不打算离开。是的。但我必须承认，无论是对于我自己还是大多数我认识的搬来这里的人，这里都非常孤独。你必须努力去克服，这简直难以置信。

And I'm very fond of saying I'm not leaving. Yeah. And but I I must confess. I'm for both myself and for most people I know who moved here, it's tremendously lonely here. It's And you have to make it It's unbelievable.

才能不感到孤独。

To be not lonely.

而且他们不会告诉你。是的，尽管在所有这些电影里他们都提到了。但确实如此。

And they don't tell you Yes. Even though they did in all of these films. But yes.

部分原因可能与你之前居住的地方或成长经历有关。但即便如此，现在不仅仅是汽车文化的问题。不仅仅是难以与人建立联系。不仅仅是现代生活中那种轻率的社交焦虑，比如你说‘二十分钟就到’，结果人们迟到两小时。

Some of that is informed by maybe where you lived before this or how you grew up. But even with that, now it's not just the car culture. It's not just the struggles to get connected with people. It's not just the kind of flip social anxiety of the modern condition where you're like, yeah. I'll be there in twenty minutes, and then people are two hours late.

没错。有时候干脆就不出现，洛杉矶的每个人都是地球上最不靠谱的人。

Right. There is something just don't show up, and everyone in LA is, like, the biggest flake on earth.

对，没错。是的。这不是唯一原因，但确实是个因素，不只是这样。更像是，这种沉溺在沙发里、希望自己状态能好点才能出门的累积效应。

Right. Exactly. Yeah. It's not and but that's a factor, but it's not just that. Like, it is this agglomeration of, like, sinking into your couch and wishing that you were doing a little bit better so that you can go out into the world.

我认为这种情况对许多城市里的人来说越来越普遍。是的。但这部电影确实触及了如何对抗这种状态。对吧？片中贝蒂那种'我要出去找工作'的精神。

And that has I think that's become increasingly true for many people in many cities. Yeah. But this movie really hits on kind of how you combat that. Right? The Betty's spirit in this movie where she's like, I'll go out for the job.

我要去认识新的人。和陌生人聊天。

I'll I'll meet a new person. Have a conversation with a stranger.

我不会，是的，我不会把她赶出我姑姑家。

I won't, yeah, I won't kick her out of my aunt's home.

我会被这个失忆的尤物诱惑。

I will be seduced by this amnesiac bombshell.

三年来说'好'。确实如此。

Three years saying yes. It it is.

确实。我们爱贝蒂。我们爱贝蒂的精神。但她是个幻想。你懂吗？

It is. We love Betty. We love Betty's spirit. But she's a fantasy. You know?

她不是那样的，那不真实。这里很少有人是那样。这里的每个人都...对吧。她也是我最好的。

She's not that's not real. Very few people are like that here. Everybody is everybody here is like Right. She's also my best.

她在工作中也非常出色，一切进展顺利。我是说，那个试镜的场景。

She's also really good at her job, and then it goes really well. I mean, that audition scene.

我们来聊聊这个。对，总的来说聊聊娜奥米·沃茨。几个月前，《The Ringer》评选了21世纪25个最伟大的银幕表演。

Let's talk about that. Yeah. Let's talk about Naomi Watts in general. Couple months ago, the ringer did their list of the 25 greatest screen performances, film performances of the twenty first century. Yeah.

我认为他们非常聪明地选择了这个表演，非常明智。出于多种原因，娜奥米·沃茨当时基本上默默无闻。她已经工作多年，众所周知是妮可·基德曼的密友。

I thought they very cleverly and smartly chose this performance. Very wise. For a variety of reasons, Naomi Watts, at this point, essentially an unknown. She had been working for some years, famously very close friends with Nicole Kidman.

对。

Right.

但大卫·林奇看到她的照片后就选中了她。他说，就是照片里这个女孩，这有点像好莱坞式的故事，

But David Lynch saw a photograph of her and cast her off of the photograph. He said, that's the girl looking at it, which is the kind of like Hollywood story that

然后在电影里也发生了这一幕。他利用了这一点。就是这个女孩。

and then that happens in the film itself. He uses it. This is the girl.

是的。她在这部电影中表现非凡。整部电影的重担都压在她肩上，无意冒犯劳拉·赫林。她的演技不及娜奥米·沃茨的十分之一，因此她必须独自撑起电影的每一刻。而且在最后四分之一部分，她还承担了双重角色。

Yes. And she is remarkable in this movie. The whole thing rests on her shoulders with no disrespect to Laura Herring. Like, she is not one tenth the actress that Naomi Watts is either, so she has to carry every single moment of the film. And she also has this dual role that emerges in in the in the final quarter.

这是本世纪最惊艳的真正巨星与伟大女演员的诞生之一。当然，过去我们也能想到其他例子，但我不确定。你觉得娜奥米·沃茨在片中的表现如何？

And it's one of the most stunning arrivals of a true star and great actress, certainly this century. Yeah. I'm sure there are other examples we can think of from the past, but I don't know. What do you make of Naomi Watts in the movie?

她实际上饰演了两个角色，但电影中有太多镜像、混淆和令人困惑的元素，以至于她可能只演了一个人，却又像演了八个不同的人。她必须演绎出贝蒂、黛安以及丽塔（因为丽塔在某个时刻完全模仿黛安）的多重人格层次

Well, she's playing literally two characters, but there are so many doubles and and mirrors and confusing you know, confusions in this movie that she's playing, like, probably just one person, but also like eight different people. She's got to populate different shades of where Betty is where Diane is, where like Rita, because Rita at some point is just doing what Diane is right down

连发型都

to the hair

连假发都一模一样。是的。而且可能连表演方式也是。此外她还有一场惊艳的试镜戏，她要扮演一个正在试镜的女演员，那段表演简直超现实，精彩绝伦。

to the wig. Yeah. And, and, and, you know, also maybe to the performances. So and then she also has this amazing audition scene, where then she has to, like, she has to be an actress playing an actress auditioning, and she's unreal in the scene. It's so good.

这部电影确实有几个这样的时刻，比如寂静咖啡馆那段——镜头缓缓推进，嗯——聚焦在面部特写上，你会完全被精准的表演吸引。当时甚至没有太多超现实或怪异元素，就是有人在真实地表演、歌唱或做某事

And this movie does have a few moments like the Solencio, like, cafe being another one of them where it's the the film, like, closes in Mhmm. On faces, and you are just completely drawn in by the exact and there's not a lot of even, like, surrealism or weird stuff going on. It's just someone acting or singing or doing something, like, very real

嗯。

Mhmm.

就在你面前。然后每一次它都彻底颠覆了那一刻。因为她在那个荒谬的肥皂剧试镜中表现得如此出色——结果那也只是她的想象，至少我们所能判断的是这样。

In front of you. And then every single time it absolutely pulls the rug out from under the moment as well. Because she's so good in, like, a ridiculous soap opera audition that also turns out to be in her imagination that we as best we can tell.

是的。我认为这是对这段情节的合理解读。这是你在林奇作品中反复看到的东西，那些催眠般的时刻，让你有三分钟完全沉浸在这部电影里。

Yeah. I think that's a fair reading of the sequence. It's an example of a thing that you see over and over again in Lynch stuff, which is these moments of hypnosis where for three minutes, you just find yourself stuck inside the movie.

是啊。

Yeah.

而当她进行那次试镜时——这真的很有挑战性，因为当你在剧本中描述一部想象中的伟大电影或一场想象中的精彩表演时，这对演员或电影制作人来说都是巨大的考验。

And when she is doing that audition, which is really challenging because it's one of those things that is a huge test for an actor or a filmmaker when you're talking about an imaginary great film or an imaginary great performance when you're writing a script.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

然后你对某人说，把它变成现实，或者一首流行歌曲。记得我们几周前和克里斯讨论过这个话题——现在那首歌必须达到那种水准。没错。而她必须表现得那么出色，因为房间里每个人都会惊呼：哇靠，太神了。

And then you say to someone, make it real or or a pop song. You know, that thing you do thing that we were talking about with Chris a couple of weeks ago where it's like, now that song's gotta be that good. Yep. And she has to be that good because everybody in the room is like, woah. Holy shit.

那真是太棒了。但这种情况很少见。

That was so good. And it rarely is.

是的。而你从未成功过。

Yes. And you never land it.

因为在那个场景中，作为一个未经训练的人，很难谈论表演的好坏。但在那一幕里，她正在做一件事，一件你常听演员们谈论的事——做出选择。嗯。关于她念台词的方式、声音的音色、音量大小，以及她如何与那位浮夸做作、老派肥皂剧明星般的对手演员进行肢体互动。

And it's because I think in the scene, it's very hard to talk about acting as an untrained person and what is good or not good about is about acting. But in that scene, she's doing a thing and she's doing a thing that you hear actors talk about all the time, which is making choices Mhmm. About the way that she's reading lines, about the timbre of her voice, about how loud or quiet she is, about how she physically connects with the other actor who's this really hammy, grabby, old timey soap star.

没错。

Right.

你能感受到在她的表演过程中，他被改变了，无需言语，他就成了一个更好的演员，而她正在探索这段独白。这是蜕变般的表演。就像那种...你知道，在电影中可能并不常见的事。我们会说，天啊，那家伙在这部电影里演得太棒了。

And you can feel him being transformed during her performance, and he is becoming a better actor without saying anything as she is exploring this monologue. It's transformational. It's like, it is the thing that, you know, it probably doesn't really happen that often in movies. We can say, like, oh my god. That guy was so good in this movie.

我爱他的表演。这实际上意味着我们喜欢看到他，喜欢他的存在，明白吗？是他的魅力在支撑。而这更像是一种技术层面的呈现

I loved his performance. What it meant is, like, we liked seeing him and being around him, you know, that his charisma was carrying. This is more of a technical execution

关于那些选择。对。我的意思是，从很多方面来说，这就是梅丽尔·斯特里普演绎克林特·伊斯特伍德式的选择——保持沉默。她说自己把《穿普拉达的女王》里的角色基于从不提高嗓门的克林特·伊斯特伍德。对吧？

of a Of, like, the choices. Yes. I mean, in in a lot of ways, it is It's the it's the Meryl Streep doing Clint Eastwood choice of just of being quiet. And she said that she based devil wars Prada on Clint Eastwood, never raising the voice. Right?

但这是克制之下的选择

But there was choice of restraint

是的。

Yes.

电影中的角色至少在做着保持低调并吸引所有人注意的事，你知道，这在我们讨论的对象身上也体现出了层次感。

And keeping things lower and drawing everyone into you is at least what the character in the movie is doing, which is, you know, there there are layers to it as well just in terms of who we're talking about.

那段情节里还有个非常滑稽的自嘲，因为场景中最心不在焉又虚伪的人就是导演。导演就像在说"对"。他具体说了什么来着？

There's a very funny self dig in that sequence too because the most kinda checked out and phony person in that scene is director. And the director is like, yes. A little what does he say?

他说"在成真之前别当真"。

He's like Don't make it real until it's real.

不，不过...对。但他在表演后说的那句话，他用了什么词来着？我记不清了，像是"用力过猛"？对。不过...还不错。

No. But but yeah. But what he says after the performance where he's like, maybe a little bit what is the word he uses? I can't it's like effortful Right. But but good.

但非常棒，懂吗？这种非常敷衍、含糊其辞的话，就是想表现得既鼓励人又能保持权威，很多导演都会这样，尤其对女演员。懂吧？就像...对。

But very good. You know? This is like very bullshitty, kind of vague, just trying to be, like, encouraging, but also maintain authority, which is something that a lot of filmmakers will do, especially over actresses. You know? Like Yeah.

我觉得林奇在这里表现出了一些自我认知。是的，你知道，他把这些都融入了作品。

There's some self knowledge there, I think, that Lynch is Yes. In in, you know, putting inside of this.

这场戏里还有一些，可以说是电影中为数不多的纯粹喜剧笑点，大家都在取笑导演，因为他给出了一些荒谬的指导。然后你会看到所有人都在翻白眼，心想他到底在说什么？

This scene also has some of, like, the only, like, pure, like, comedy jokes in the movie in and everyone making fun of the director because he gives some ridiculous notes. Then you, like, see everybody, like, roll their eyes and be like, what is he talking about?

是的，没错。我是说，他看起来几乎没在专心，这很有趣。而且我认为林奇对女演员有种特别的亲和力，如果你看过劳拉·邓恩谈论大卫·林奇，他们简直像是最好的朋友。

Yes. Yes. Yeah. I mean, he seems like he's barely paying attention, which is wonderful. And, you know, I think Lynch has a real affinity for actresses if you see if you've ever seen Laura Dern talk about David Lynch, you know, they were, like, best friends.

你知道，她很大程度上是他的缪斯，他们合作过很多次。尽管他拍这些非常叛逆粗粝的电影，她们对他依然怀有深厚的感情。比如后来的《内陆帝国》，也是一部非常艰涩的电影，同样讲述一个女演员的分身故事，劳拉·邓恩一人分饰两角。

And, you know, she was very much his muse, and they worked together many times. And they just have this overwhelming affection for him even though he makes these really transgressive rough movies. Right. Inland Empire, which comes after this. It's a very tough, hard movie also about an actress who is doubling, and Lord Dern plays two different women.

他不断回归这些主题，那些身处险境的迷人女性。但你能感觉到他对她们有着真正的敏感度，他能激发出她们最好的表演。这对一个伟大的电影人来说非常重要。

And he kinda returns to these ideas over and over again, these kind of glamorous women that are imperiled. But you can sense that he has, like, a real sensitivity with them. He he just gets the best out of them. Right? And that's, like, that's really important when you're a great filmmaker.

伊莎贝拉·罗西里尼在谈到《蓝丝绒》时，提到那些认为电影厌女或剥削的批评声音，她说：'我是个成年女性，当时31岁，是我选择出演这个角色。大卫理解这一点。'所以我认为女演员们确实喜欢与他合作，她们感到被理解并参与创作过程。

Isabella Rossellini, when talking about Blue Velvet and kind of the backlash and the the readings of Blue Velvet is misogynistic or exploitative was it's like I I was a grown woman. I was, like, 31 years old, and I chose to play this. And like David understands it. So I think, yeah, they do the actresses like working with him. And I like I get feel understood and part of the process.

是的，即便有时候会有点丑陋。但你知道，女性也可以展现丑陋面。

Yes. Even if even if it gets a a little ugly. But, you know, women can be ugly too.

当然可以。不过在这个节目里不行。不，她们总是美丽的。其实也不是。

They certainly can. Not on this show. No. They're always beautiful. And not really.

我觉得在这部电影里，他们的情感很丑陋，但每个人的外表都挺好看的。

I guess they're ugly emotionally in this movie, but everyone's looking pretty great.

是啊，这里没有英雄人物。

Yeah. There are no no heroes.

很多评论都在说娜奥米·沃茨变成黛安时简直判若两人。我当时就想，咱们冷静点，这两位都是大美女好吗。只不过她的头发稍微直了点。

There are a lot of the reviews talk about how when Naomi Watts turns into Diane, she's like, unrecognizable. And I was like, let's let's let's calm down here. These are two very beautiful women. Her hair is a little straighter.

嗯，我觉得电影处理得很巧妙但很简单，就是化妆不同、色调不同。对，她看起来并没有天翻地覆的变化，只是像遭遇变故后的样子。

Well, well, I think what what the film does really well, which is very simple is, you know, the makeup is different. The coloring is different. Yes. She doesn't look radically different. She just looks like what would happen if things went bad.

明白吗？这是个聪明的选择。她的服装更暗沉些，嗯，就是看起来稍微邋遢了点。

You know? And that is a clever choice. You know, her her costuming is is is is more muted. Mhmm. She just seems a little dirtier.

没错，她的脸其实没什么变化。

Yeah. You know, it's like her face isn't different.

因为她终究还是娜奥米·沃茨啊。

Because she is still Naomi Watts.

是的。但我觉得关键在于她的表演。所以这确实希望能引起共鸣。我还想特别提一下餐厅那场戏，我提到过大学时看过。嗯。

Yes. But it's her performance, I think. So that's really is hopefully nodding to. I I did also wanna just shout out the diner scene, which I mentioned that I saw it when I was in college. Mhmm.

这是我写剧本时最害怕的部分。帕特里克·菲施勒，这位出色的性格演员坐在桌子对面，讲述他做的一个梦。

And this is the most scared I've ever written a movie. It's Patrick Fischler, incredible character actor who is sitting across from the table and recounting this dream that he's had.

是啊。

Yeah.

电影就在这里突然停下...嗯...中途插入这段情节。这段戏之所以出色有多个原因，最重要的是表演和剪辑，但林奇选择在这个场景中完全消音。你听不到餐厅里其他顾客的任何交谈声。

And it's the movie just stops Mhmm. In the middle to to go to this sequence. And this sequence is remarkable for a variety of reasons. The the the most important reason is the performances and the and the the editing, but Lynch chooses to cut out all sound in this scene. You cannot hear any of the other patrons inside the diner talking.

于是你能完全专注于菲施勒的角色试图描述的梦境。然后梦境开始实时上演...嗯...当他对面那个对他人梦境毫无同理心的粗鲁之人起身走向收银台时，就像他刚描述的在梦开头看到的那样。然后他朋友说：'我们去吧，看看会发生什么，看看小巷后面有什么。'

And so you can you're focused entirely on what Fischler's character is trying to recount about this dream. And then the dream starts to happen in real time Mhmm. When he the person he is sitting across from, who's quite rude and not thoughtful about the man's dream, gets up and stands and walks over to the cashier just as he's just described that he's seen him at the very beginning of And his then the friend is like, let's do it. Let's make the let's let's see what happens. Let's see what's behind the let's see what's behind behind the the alleyway.

这时你会想：'我在看大卫·林奇的电影，可怕的事就要发生了。我知道可怕的事就要发生了。'你等着，一直等着。作为一个热爱恐怖片、喜欢被惊吓、平时不太害怕的人，我这么说...

And you're like, I'm in a David Lynch film. Something terrible is about to happen. I I know something terrible is about to happen. You're waiting and you're waiting. And I say this as someone who loves horror movies, loves to be scared, isn't really that scared of things.

但我在想：当这个男人讲述他一生中最令他不安的梦境时，这些角色究竟会遭遇什么可怕的事？而且我完全被这个角色的叙述方式和演员的表演说服了。结果揭晓时，你会发现...其实有点滑稽。

But I was like, I what what awfulness could possibly be awaiting these characters as this man is recounting the most the most shaken he's ever been from a dream in his entire life? Right. And I'm so sold on what this character is saying and how this actor is saying it. And what's revealed is, you know, kinda silly.

是啊，就是个普通女人的跳吓。是啊。

Yeah. Just a normal woman jump scare. Yeah.

看起来是个普通的跳吓。不知道为什么，但这个把我吓破胆了。我差点哭出来。我觉得是因为它效果太强了，就像我记得的梦境总是很恐怖，一点都不好玩。

It looks like a regular jump scare. I don't know why, but I was disemboweled by this. I was like, oh, I'm near tears. And I think it's because it does something effective, which is like, I do find when I remember my dreams that they are very scary. I do not find that they are very fun.

我不会说我的梦很有趣。

I wouldn't say I have fun dreams.

有人会做美梦吗？比如...我不知道...睡觉的时候？

Does anyone have positive dreams? Like, I don't know. While sleeping.

如果你存在的话。

If you're out there.

是啊，你知道吗？告诉我们吧。我知道我们每天醒着的时候都在努力实现梦想，但那些和睡梦中的...

Yeah. You know? Just let us know. This I know, like, you know, we're all here trying to live our dreams every day in our waking life, but, like, those are different from our

睡眠对'梦'这个词来说多美好啊，因为日常提到'梦'时总关乎抱负。当然，这也正是这部电影的主题。但当你我坐下来聊梦境时，你甚至不愿告诉我梦的内容，因为你害怕暴露内心最深处的悲伤与恐惧。

sleeping so wonderful about the word because when the word is invoked Yeah. In day to day conversation, conversation, it's about aspirations. Sure. It's about where you want to go and who you wanna be, which is, of course, what this movie is about. But when you and I sit down and we start talking about them, you won't even tell me what happened in your dream because you're afraid to reveal the darkest core of your sadness and fear.

但问题在于，它真的不够有创意或艺术性。你

But the thing is really that it's, like, it's not particularly creative or artistic. You

懂吗？那只是个梦。你无法控制它。谁会因此评判你呢？

know? That's It's a dream. You have no control over it. Why who would judge you for that?

嗯，我不知道。如果我能想象出像毕加索画作那样的梦境，充满丰富的象征意义，而不是梦见扎克对我很刻薄之类的，那不是很酷吗？

Well, I don't know. Wouldn't it be like, it would be cool if I was, like you know, I was imagining, like, well, it looks like a Picasso painting. And I, like, I had all these, like, rich symbolic things instead of being like, I don't know. Zach was mean to me. Was like, he was

艾琳也经常做类似的梦。是的，我觉得这很正常，没什么问题。就像这部电影探讨的——如果我失败了怎么办？如果我没失败会怎样？

Eileen has very similar dreams. Yeah. I think I but I think that that's normal. I think that's okay. Like, I think that this movie is about this movie is about what if I failed and what if I didn't and I I what if I could have not failed?

是的。那段情节完美概括了我们对梦境矛盾的情感。贝蒂代表可能性，是希望的化身。

Yeah. You know? And that sequence, I think, really neatly summarizes the polarity of our feeling about the idea of dreams. The the the you know, Betty is a manifestation of what could be. It's a hope.

对。而餐厅代表什么？黑暗。是的，那些真正吓到我们、困扰我们的东西。

Right. And the diner is What? The darkness. Yeah. What really scares us, really fucks with us.

当然，我们还看到那个角色——由修女系列电影中扮演修女的女演员饰演。虽然片中设定为男性，但实际由女性扮演。明白了吗？

And, of course, we get that character, that woman, who, of course, is the same actress who portrays the nun in the nun films. I'll have you know. Okay. You know, that character is identified as a man in the film, but is played by a woman. Okay.

她仅仅凭借一张恐怖的脸就成了电影界的标志性人物。是的。如果能做到的话，这确实是相当不错的生活，我想。

And and she's she's become an icon of cinema just by having a scary face. Yeah. Quite quite quite quite a good living if you can get it, I guess.

没错。你知道，利用你所拥有的。

Exactly. You know, use what

你提到了诺伊班达和寂静。对。还有一个难忘的场景，贝蒂半夜被吵醒，因为她听到丽塔说出‘寂静’这个词。然后是诺伊班达。

you have. You mentioned Noi Banda and Silencio. Yeah. Also, an unforgettable scene where so Betty is awoken in the middle of the night because she hears Rita utter the word Silencio. Then Noeibanda.

诺伊班达是一个信号，表明她们必须去这家俱乐部。对。她们进入俱乐部后，林奇的许多电影和电视剧中都有音乐人在红色幕布前表演的场景，比如《双峰》中的红色幕布。这种荒凉之地聚集着社会的边缘人，来聆听悲伤音乐的概念。

And Noeibanda and is an indicator that they must go to this this club. Yeah. And they enter the club. And there are a lot of scenes in in a lot of Lynch films and TV shows that feature musicians performing in front of a red curtain, you know, the red curtain in in Twin Peaks. This idea of this, like, desolate place where the stragglers of society gather to watch sad music.

是的。所以这是这部电影中反复出现的另一个主题。但在这个场景中表演的丽贝卡·德尔里奥非常迷人。对。我们还看到人们被一段音乐迷住的场景。

Yeah. So that's that's another motif that occurs in this film. But Rebecca Del Rio, who performs in this scene, is, like, is mesmerizing. Yeah. And we also see that thing where we watch other people be mesmerized by a piece of music.

是的。但他们确实宣布了那部电影，你知道，那音乐是

Yeah. But they do announce that the film the, you know, that the music is

正在录制。对。

is recording. Yeah.

那么当她在这个过程中晕倒时，你觉得她是因为什么晕倒的？

And so when she faints mid process what do think what do you what do you think she fainted from?

呃，我是说，我不确定。说实话，那房间感觉像是被诅咒了。你知道吗？就像贝蒂这个角色在开始唱歌前，会无缘无故地抽搐。那里似乎充满了不祥之气。

Well, I mean, I I don't know. It seems like a cursed room, honestly. You know? Like, at some before she starts singing, the Betty character is, like, having convulsions for no reason. I it seems like bad juju in there.

我其实不是那种迷信洛杉矶玄学的人，但不管人们想纠正什么能量，那些能量似乎都聚集到那里了。

And I'm not really like an LA woo woo type of person, but whatever energy people are trying to correct has has found its way there.

是啊。我提到的《双峰》重启版那集最精彩的部分，就在于它试图探索邪恶的起源。这个选择其实挺大胆的——追溯人类十年前、二十年前、五十年前甚至百年前做出的那些腐蚀灵魂的决定。我看到的不仅是又一个例证。嗯。

Yeah. I mean, part of what's so great about that Twin Peaks episode that I was talking to talking about from the return is that that's an episode that attempts to actually explore the origins of evil. Like, that's actually a pretty bold choice to try to reach back ten, twenty, fifty, a hundred years into choices that are made by human beings that kinda corrode our soul. I'm not seeing it just another example of it. Mhmm.

很棒的电影。

Great movie.

确实很棒。多么引人入胜的影片啊。

Really good. What a fascinating film.

干得好，各位。干得好。大卫·林奇，太出色了。这部电影的遗产，就像你提到的...

Good job, everyone. Good job. Well done, David Lynch. The film's legacy, you know, you mentioned

是的。

Yeah.

虽然不能说一致好评，但这部电影确实存在批评者。不过它立刻就被誉为杰作，我觉得这很有趣。它曾角逐金棕榈奖，但输给了《太阳的房间》——这部片子我还没看过。

Pretty I wouldn't it's not unanimous. There were definitely detractors for this film, but there was a very immediate celebration of its greatness, which I find pretty fascinating. It competed for the Palm, but it did not win. It lost to a film called The Sun's Room, which I have not seen. K.

但林奇确实赢得了最佳导演奖，并只获得过一次奥斯卡提名。你还记得他在学院奖上输给谁了吗？是的。就是那个

But Lynch did win for best director and was nominated for just the one Oscar. You remember who he lost to in the Academy Awards Yes. That

你写的是《美丽心灵》的朗·霍华德。

You've written Ron Howard for a beautiful mind.

对此你怎么看？

What do you think about that?

那部还拿了最佳影片。我是说，那届奥斯卡是什么时候？2002年2月还是3月？对，美国那时候挺怪的。

Which also won best picture. I mean, so these Oscars were what? February, March 2002? Yeah. Weird time in America.

没错。

Yes.

是的。嗯，也许当初应该把奥斯卡奖颁给《穆赫兰道》。

Yeah. It's Well, it might have been appropriate to give Mulholland Drive the academy award.

你知道，学院在动荡时期历来不会采纳最前卫的解决方案。

You know, the academy has not historically embraced, like, the most avant garde solution in times of strife.

我不能说不同意这一点。罗杰·埃伯特在他的四星影评中写道：这是一部需要你全身心投入的电影。如果你追求逻辑，那就去看别的片子。是的。我对此稍有异议，因为我认为只要你愿意，这部电影其实非常易懂。

I can't say I disagree with that. Roger Ebern in his four star review wrote, this is a movie to surrender yourself to it. If you require logic, see something else. Yeah. I would quibble with that ever so slightly in that I think the movie is very readable if you choose to.

它只是抗拒你所说的那种整齐划一的解决方案。

It just resists the the the tidy solution that you're talking about.

确实。

Yes.

虽然从解谜角度来说它难以参透，但你可以进行解读——关于这部电影象征意义的各种非凡解读层出不穷。

It it it's it's impenetrable in terms of solving it, but you can apply, and there is an incredible amount of extraordinary reading into what the film is representative of.

而且它经得起推敲。我读过埃伯特后来写的一篇文章，讲他每年在科罗拉多参加的一个研讨会，他们会选一部电影进行深度分析。

And that's it stands up. I read a later Ebert piece about a conference he attended in Colorado every year where they would they'd pick one movie.

嗯。

Mhmm.

他们会逐帧分析。观众可以随时喊停，然后大家一起讨论构图和象征意义，就这样和罗杰·伊伯特花十二个小时研究一部电影。

And they would they'd go frame by frame. And so anyone in the audience could say stop or what, you know, and they would analyze like the composition and the symbols and kinda spend twelve hours on a movie with Roger Ebert.

嗯。

Mhmm.

有一年他们选了《穆赫兰道》。我记得是罗杰·伊伯特选的。他说这次一定要揭开谜底。文章记录了讨论中提出的各种理论。但最后他表示：还是没弄明白。

And so one year, they picked Mulholland Drive. And I think it was Roger Ebert's pick. And he's like, I'm really gonna get to the bottom of this. And the piece is about the many theories that were explored in this group. And at the end, he was like, nope.

而且——我还是没接近真相。这种分析形式并不能，你知道，并不能解答所有问题。

And and I'm no closer to you know? It's like this this format does not, you know, does not have all of the answers.

是的。这部电影本质上是关于某种感受的。或者说一系列感受，就像《花样年华》那样。《花样年华》不是用来解谜的电影，是需要用心感受的。

Yeah. It's a movie that's ultimately about a feeling Right. Or a series of feelings at least, which is part of I mean, it's it's just like in the mood for love in that way. Then the mood for love is not a movie to be solved. It's a movie to be felt.

嗯。那部更浪漫些，这部则更阴暗。这部电影在《纽约时报》主榜单和读者票选榜都排名第二。至于这个...

Mhmm. And that one is a little bit more romantic. This one is a little bit more evil. This film is number two on both the main poll and the readers poll for the New York Times. Now that to

《穆赫兰道》确实引人入胜，对吧？所以我开始思考这是否更多关乎评选方法——我不知道他们如何进行加权和排名。但如果有足够多人将其列入前十，尤其考虑到这份榜单是今年夏天制作的。

me is fascinating. Right? So I I began to wonder if this is just sort of like this isn't more about the methodology. I don't know how they're weighting and ranking stuff. But if if enough people are putting it somewhere in the top 10, then and I think most people, especially that list was done this summer.

林奇的离世让人们记忆犹新，所以许多人选择了《穆赫兰道》。这个观点很到位。我在想这是否掺杂了些许近因效应，或者单纯因为提及次数多？

So, you know, Lynch's passing was in the mind and so a lot of people pick Mulholland Drive. Because good point. So I wondered if it was like a little bit recency bias or just kind of the number of mentions?

我认为这是多重因素的叠加：既存在这种特定的近因效应，同时也因为该片在影史地位中的攀升。2012年《视与听》评选中它排第22名，到2022年已升至第8名。这既反映了时间推移，也体现了对这位伟大艺术家日渐成熟的认可——甚至在他去世前，人们就已开始重新审视他的杰作。

Well, I think it's a it's a convergence of that very specific recency bias along with the fact that it has been rising in the in the in the canon. So in 2012 on the sight and sound poll, it was at number 22. In 2022, it was at number eight. So this is, you know, simultaneously and some of this is about a great artist getting older. So even before he passed, of recognizing his great works.

正如你描述17岁时的感受，这部电影堪称超现实主义电影的入门基石。你不会从布努埃尔开始，而很可能会以这部为起点。娜奥米·沃茨主演的这部作品，我打算去看看。

I think this movie, just like you were describing when you were 17, is a little bit of a keystone to outsider, you know, surrealist cinema. You know, you wouldn't start with Bunuel. You'd probably start with this movie. So, like, Naomi Watts is in this. I'll check it out.

接着它会引领你深入探索影响林奇的所有元素，当你真正成为影迷并试图理解这些风格流派时，他就像通往这类电影创作的绝佳门户。我先前问过：如果没看过《蓝丝绒》或《双峰》，能理解这部吗？我很想听听年轻影迷的看法——我们有很多尚未看过林奇全集的新听众。

And then that leads you down a rabbit hole of trying to understand all the things that influenced Lynch and as you become a real cinephile and try to under understand all these styles and genres, like, he's just a very helpful portal into this kind of film and filmmaking. I already asked you this. Does it make sense if you haven't seen Blue Velvet or Twin Peaks? I I'd like to get you know, I'm curious for some younger movie fans' opinions about this. We have a lot of younger listeners who haven't seen the collected works of David Lynch.

想象你二十岁，正在电影学院求学...

You know? But so if you sit down and you are 20 and you are in film school

确实。

Yeah.

你和罗杰·艾伯特一起看这部电影，他会为你逐场解析，你会觉得‘你明白了吗？你真的理解其中的基调了吗？’

And you watch this movie with Roger Ebert, and he breaks it down for you scene by scene, Are you like are are you getting it? Are are you really are you grasping the tonality?

我相信年轻一代。

I believe in the younger generation.

我也相信。我不是在试图否定这一点。

I do too. I'm not so I'm trying I'm not trying to undermine that.

首先，如果他们想礼貌地让我们知道，他们可以。但问题是他们怎么做到呢？

First of all, if they wanna let us know politely, they can. K. But also How would they

解决这个问题？能找到

do that? Can solve it. Find

办法吗？这就是解决问题的过程。明白吗？这就是我们‘大视野’提供的教育。不过，我认为特别是年轻一代，如果你现在是个影迷，正在探索，你会觉得‘好吧’。

you? That's part that's part of the process is problem solving. Okay? That's that's the education we're offering here at the big picture. But, yeah, I think in particular, the younger generation, if you're also, if you are a cinephile at this point and you're seeking out, you're like, okay.

大卫·林奇的电影在我的观影清单上是个盲区。那你至少知道些什么，对吧？

Here is David Lynch's like a blind spot in my repertoire. Then you at least like know something. Right?

哦，当然。

Oh, of course.

你懂的足够多，知道要去找大卫·林奇。所以我觉得你在情感上已经准备好了。

You know enough to know, like, oh, I gotta seek out David Lynch. So then I think you're emotionally prepared for this.

是的。他显然也是一位赢得了同行导演和演员们极大尊重的人。所以如果你听到

Yeah. He's also obviously someone who has engendered a tremendous amount of respect from his peers as filmmakers and actors. So you if you hear

他谈论很多相当糟糕的抄袭作品。

him talk about it lot of rip offs that are quite bad.

说得很对。我们甚至没聊到这点。但这还引发了一长串类似但质量不佳的电影。是的。关键在于，你也知道，这部电影根本没赚钱。

It's a very good point. We didn't even talk about that. But this also just sets up a long trail of movies that are kind of like this but aren't very good. Yeah. And that's the thing is he also you know, this movie didn't make any money.

他在那个我提到的Criterion采访中开玩笑说，影评人爱死它了，但没人看。你知道，他依然保持着那种朴实直接的对话风格，就像在说：'我们是为普通人拍电影'，懂吗？

He jokes about this in this Criterion interview that I'm that I referenced where he's just sort of like, yeah. Critics loved it, but nobody saw it. You know, he he does still have that kind of down home corn pone direct Right. Conversation style where he's just like, we're making movies for people out here. You know?

他拍的是最怪异、最难以捉摸、最神秘的电影，但他仍然希望被看见。他想被理解，但不愿多作解释。

He's making the strangest, most elusive, mysterious films, but he still he wants to be seen. And he wants to be understood, but he doesn't wanna have to explain.

嗯，一样。

Well, same.

哇。哇。好吧，这很感人。那么这部电影代表的是哪些电影呢？是的。

Wow. Wow. Well, that's moving. So what movies is this movie standing in for? Yeah.

我认为这里有两个方向。是的。那么你写下的第一个方向是什么？

I would say that there are two tracks here. Yeah. So what is the first track that you wrote down?

关于好莱坞的电影。对。我认为符合条件的好莱坞题材电影有：《改编剧本》、《巴比伦》、《爱乐之城》，以及布莱德利·库珀版的《一个明星的诞生》。

Movies about Hollywood. Yep. So I think eligible movies about Hollywood. Adaptation, Babylon, La La Land, and A Star is Born, the Bradley Cooper.

你觉得布莱德利·库珀怎么看待大卫·林奇？我们知道他曾在百老汇扮演过《象人》。是的，所以他肯定看过林奇的作品。

What do you think Bradley Cooper thinks of David Lynch? Now we know he has portrayed the Elephant Man on Broadway. Yes. So, of course, I'm sure he's seen it.

我确信他会说'大卫·林奇是位伟大的朋友'，你知道的，因为布莱德利·库珀对每个人都这么说。我好奇他们是否真是朋友。

I'm sure he's like David Lynch was a great friend, you know, because that's what Bradley Cooper says about everyone. I wonder if they were friends.

它代表的另一种类型，我称之为反逻辑心理噩梦电影，这类电影在过去二十五年里也很常见，尤其是在后9·11时代，这种迷失方向和混乱的感觉常常笼罩着男性心理——有时也包括女性心理。比如《死亡幻觉》、《纽约提喻法》，最近的《博很恐惧》就是这类例子。

So the other kind of genre that it's standing in for are what I'm describing as anti logic psychological nightmare movies, which have also been very common in the last twenty five years, especially in a post nine eleven world where this feeling of disorientation and disruption has been coming over the often male psyche, I will say. Sometimes the female psyche. But, Donnie Darko is an example of this. Synecdoche, New York. Bo is Afraid is a recent example of this.

非常感激林奇。是的。《黑天鹅》。是的。还有其他作品。

Very indebted to Lynch. Yeah. Black Swan. Yeah. There are others.

我觉得如果你想回顾过去，像《现在别看》这样的电影就是个有趣的例子，它展现了男性心理与权力的崩塌。是的。明白吗？然后暴力是如何降临到我们身上的。总之

I think if you wanna go back into the past, the movie like don't look now is an interesting example of this, the violation of the male psyche and male power. Yeah. You know? And then what what violence is brought upon us. Anyhow

你觉得家里很多阿罗诺夫斯基的粉丝会因为《黑天鹅》没上榜而哭吗？

Do think a lot of Aronofsky fans at home crying because Black Swan's not on the list?

我其实从没考虑过这个问题。

I've never really considered it.

好吧。

Okay.

我喜欢那部电影。

I like that movie.

抱歉。我很多年没看了。我不记得自己讨厌它。

Sorry. I I haven't seen it in many years. I don't think I disliked it.

好的。我认为它非常有效地实现了它的目标。是的。它借鉴了很多波兰斯基的风格。没错。

Okay. Think it's very effectively doing what it's trying to do. Yeah. It's cribbing from a lot of Polansky. Yeah.

确实有很多波兰斯基的影子。但这没关系。是的。好吧。如果你喜欢的话推荐看看。

It's all it's a lot of Polansky. But that's okay. Yeah. Okay. Recommended if you like.

这些电影正是这些作品所代表的。就像如果你喜欢这类电影，嗯，你可能会喜欢这部。我首先想到的是《艳舞女郎》。

Now those were those were the those were what these movies are standing in for. This is like if you dig these movies Mhmm. You might dig this. The first one that came to mind was showgirls.

非常棒，非常棒的联想。

Really good really good pull.

《艳舞女郎》同样讲述了娱乐界——这个由男性主导的世界——如何摧毁女性灵魂的故事。是的。而且伊丽莎白·伯克利在片中的表演令人难忘，当时却被误解了。还有长期与林奇合作的凯尔·麦克拉克伦，确实如此。

Showgirls, also about the way that the world of entertainment, the male run world of entertainment destroys women's souls. Yeah. And features a remarkable performance by Elizabeth Berkley. Misunderstood at the time. Also features longtime Lynch stand in Kyle McLaughlin True.

扮演一个反派角色。

In a role as a as a bad man.

是的。我是说，《艳舞女郎》现在得到了深刻的理解，而且这种理解每天都在加深。

Yeah. I mean, Showgirls is now incredibly understood, you know, and more understood every day.

感谢亚当·尼曼为此写了一整本书。如果你喜欢，还可以推荐《放大》这部电影。是的，另一部关于通过男性视角看女性的电影。当然。

Thank you to Adam Neiman for writing an entire book about it. Other recommended if you like, think Blow Up. Yeah. Another movie about seeing women through a male lens. Sure.

是啊。还有死亡和谋杀。福音。

Yeah. And and death and murder. Gospel.

听起来很有趣。是的，真的很棒。

Sounds funny. Yeah. Really good.

对吧？当然。不错。是的，去看看。

Right? Sure. Nice. Yeah. See it.

多么

What a

棒的电影。

great movie.

我是说《日落大道》，当然，这是林奇可能最常被问及与其关联性的电影。

I mean, Sunset Boulevard, of course, which is the movie that Lynch has probably asked about most in terms of its correlation.

没错。我是说，我们确实看到了日落大道，就在我们从穆赫兰道穿过灌木丛到达日落大道之后，你知道，这是一段艰难的旅程。

Right. I mean, we do actually see Sunset Boulevard, you know, right after we see we go from Mulholland Drive to Sunset Boulevard through the brush, which, you know, is a tough journey. It

确实。你走过吗？你自己爬下去过吗？

is. Have you done it? You climb down yourself?

我试过几次。比如，我刚搬到洛杉矶的时候，那时候我拒绝放弃纽约市的步行便利性。

I tried a couple times. Like, when I first moved to LA, and when I like, I I refuse to relinquish the walkability of New York City.

那简直是不可能的。

That's like, no.

不，不。我们会走下去。但即使对我来说，这也是一段相当艰难的旅程。

No. No. We'll, like, walk down. But but even even for me, this would be quite a journey.

确实很困难。

It's difficult.

其中两个

Two of

那些以洛杉矶街道命名的大片。没错。还有其他以'Velvet'命名的好电影吗？

the great films named after streets in Los Angeles. Exactly. Any other great films named Velvet

或者说林奇的任何一部电影。但是

or really any of the any of the Lynch movies. But

是啊。我觉得这根本不用想。对。太高、太低，对这个排名感觉不错。

Yeah. I think I mean, this was a no brainer. Yeah. Too high, too low, feel good about its placement.

刚刚好。

Just right.

刚刚好。

Just right.

对，就像金发姑娘的故事一样。

Yeah. Just like Goldilocks.

所以这是第六名。

So this is number six.

是的。

Yes.

我们还有五个要处理。

And we have five more to go.

确实如此。

We do.

你想做任何交易吗？

Do you wanna do any trades?

嗯，你一直在提一个你想做的交易。

Well, you have been mentioning one that you wanna do.

其实我不太清楚该怎么完成它。

Well, I don't really know how to pull it off.

好吧。

Okay.

但我正在考虑一些事情。

But I'm I'm I'm I'm thinking on something.

好的。

Alright.

我不会在播客里剧透的。

And I'm not gonna spoil it here on the podcast.

没错。问题就在于我们实际上不能谈论

Right. And that's the thing is that we can't actually talk about

我不想...我只想在生活中创造内容。我不想制作录制内容。好吧。我想进行一次关于内容的对话

I don't wanna I just wanna I wanna make content in life. I don't wanna make recorded content. Okay. I wanna I wanna have a content conversation